Andrew Yang

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm your host, Andrew Yang, and I'm joined by Gail Yang.

[2] I don't know his wife's name.

[3] You love Gail.

[4] You've been saying the word Gail.

[5] I'm stuck on Gail.

[6] You're stuck on Gail.

[7] This was so exciting.

[8] It really, really was.

[9] Andrew Yang, we've been wanting to talk to him for a very long time, but I didn't want to do it while everyone was campaigning.

[10] I didn't want to get in a mix with the political campaigning.

[11] Well, that's kind of ironic because he is campaigning right now, but not.

[12] Not in my city.

[13] Yeah, we just didn't want to get all, you know, political.

[14] Yeah, right.

[15] So, you know, Andrew Yang is an entrepreneur, an author, a philanthropist, a nonprofit leader, and currently running for mayor of New York City.

[16] This was a really good one because I have different opinions than him.

[17] About universal basic income.

[18] And we got to debate it a little bit.

[19] Yeah, and you said you came around.

[20] Yeah, I moved closer to him.

[21] Yeah.

[22] He was just a blast.

[23] He's wonderful.

[24] Please enjoy Andrew Yang.

[25] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[26] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[27] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[28] He's an armchair expert.

[29] What's going on, Dax?

[30] Hello!

[31] Oh, look at this.

[32] I think he just already diffused me. What?

[33] With this just gentle hello.

[34] I think I'm already like, okay, he's going to win any debate we have.

[35] How are you doing?

[36] I'm doing well.

[37] Thanks for having me. This is awesome.

[38] Yeah, a pleasure.

[39] I think we've been working on this for, I don't know, year and a half maybe.

[40] We have great interest in you.

[41] Of course, you're a very provocative man in a titillating way.

[42] Wow, I'm so glad to hear it.

[43] I'll take provocative and titillating.

[44] Why not?

[45] Yeah, throw that in there.

[46] So I imagine you are joining us from what, like headquarters of your campaign for the mayoral bid?

[47] That's right.

[48] I'm here in New York City, greatest city in the world.

[49] world in my campaign headquarters, which also doubles as spare bedroom.

[50] Should you be victorious, could you make me a campaign pledge right now that you will explain to New Yorkers that we in L .A. are not in a battle with you guys.

[51] You guys are just in a battle with us.

[52] We all love New York City and think it's the greatest city in the world.

[53] Sure, Don.

[54] Look at that.

[55] I'm very happy.

[56] He heard of her first New Yorkers.

[57] L .A. has acknowledged our greatness.

[58] The war is over.

[59] Yes.

[60] And I helped broker this piece.

[61] It was the mighty Dach Shepherd from the West Coast.

[62] The sage, Andrew Yang of the East Coast.

[63] We came together to hammer out an armistice.

[64] It's called the Great Bicostal Treaty of 2021.

[65] They should send us to Israel next.

[66] We're on a roll.

[67] You're afraid to touch that.

[68] It got me thinking about it.

[69] Andrew, Where are you from originally?

[70] I was born in upstate New York.

[71] My parents immigrated from Taiwan.

[72] They met in California.

[73] They were both students at Berkeley.

[74] And then they actually really wanted to stay in California.

[75] I came this close to being a Californian.

[76] But my dad ended up getting a job in GE, which was in Schenectady, New York, which was where I was born.

[77] So I was born in Schenectady.

[78] And then we moved closer to New York City.

[79] My dad went to IBM.

[80] And so I grew up in upstate New York.

[81] I think you and I have the same age, Dax.

[82] So I'm 46.

[83] and I grew up in the 80s in upstate New York.

[84] Yeah, 1975.

[85] Same.

[86] What's your birthday?

[87] January 13th.

[88] Oh, my goodness.

[89] You know, mine is January 2nd.

[90] No. Wow.

[91] Yes, I'm 11 days older than you.

[92] And 13 days wiser.

[93] Yes, I must look up to you.

[94] Allow me to be an elder in a guidance.

[95] Yeah, so I grew up in upstate New York, very conventional fashion.

[96] I mean, you know, it's the first generation born in this country.

[97] So my brother and I, I'll speak for myself.

[98] Like, I really wanted to live American culture.

[99] I mean, you remember the 80s.

[100] It was all karate kid and back to the future and all that good wholesome stuff.

[101] That's interesting.

[102] Well, really quick.

[103] So you have Monica's story, in my opinion, which is first generation embracing, well, in her case, whiteness at being surrounded in Georgia.

[104] As all the media is that, everything is pointing towards one thing.

[105] Well, certainly in the 80s, there weren't many Asians on TV unless it was like a kung fu movie, like that drive -in theater Saturday afternoons.

[106] So I got asked whether I knew kung fu or karate all the time as a kid.

[107] And then eventually I was like, well, I should be able to say yes to that.

[108] So then I went and tried to study martial arts.

[109] It's like in my teens.

[110] I was very bookwormy.

[111] I read a lot of science fiction novels, that kind of thing.

[112] Was the pressure on from mom and dad to be an overachiever?

[113] Like did it fall into that stereotypical first generation dynamic?

[114] I would say yes.

[115] Not only was I told to get good grades.

[116] And my brother is now a professor.

[117] My dad went on to become a professor.

[118] So being a professor is kind of a family business.

[119] But I also learned to play piano and other things that seemed like they would be very good overachiever type things for the college app.

[120] Where did you go to college?

[121] I went to Brown.

[122] Oh, Brown.

[123] I don't know why I thought Stanford.

[124] I studied economics and political science at Brown.

[125] You know, people who think I went to Stanford.

[126] I got into Stanford and then had that choice and decided to go to Brown.

[127] part because my brother was transferring from Berkeley to the East Coast while I was making this decision.

[128] So I thought, well, I should take a cue from that.

[129] But I studied economics and political science at Brown.

[130] Your brother's older?

[131] Yeah, he's two and a half years older.

[132] He's now a psychology professor.

[133] And do you have little brother's syndrome?

[134] I had little brother syndrome where I kind of like was competitive then.

[135] But that was when I was younger and a little bit more ticked off.

[136] He was always really good to me. He was a great big brother.

[137] I appreciate it more now.

[138] Because I've got two boys now myself who are eight and five.

[139] And so you appreciate the fact that not all older brothers are awesome.

[140] You know, my kids are pretty good to each other.

[141] And my brother was good to me. I should have appreciated it more at the time.

[142] We're living the same life.

[143] I have eight and six.

[144] Wow.

[145] Yeah.

[146] And by the way, we're both late as hell.

[147] You were 38 when you had your first kid?

[148] Yeah.

[149] I also felt like a little bit of an old dad.

[150] And like Roblox seems to run my house.

[151] But yeah, we're living a very similar timeline, Dax.

[152] Except your podcast is a much bigger deal than mine.

[153] Do you have a podcast?

[154] See, that's what I'm talking about.

[155] You didn't even know.

[156] Oh, that was kind of a, I shouldn't ask it that way.

[157] But I didn't know.

[158] I've been a fan of yours for a long time.

[159] We tweeted each other.

[160] Do you remember?

[161] Oh, yeah, of course, man. I was like, holy crap, Dak Shepard.

[162] I remember, like, him cracking me up during some of your earlier days of, like, punking people.

[163] Yeah.

[164] Because I really have always been intrigued by you since you wrote your book.

[165] and I have a lot of friends that are in the Yang Gang.

[166] And we simply never wanted to be political because we were fatigued.

[167] And so we just kind of veered away the first few years from that.

[168] And you were about to start a presidential bid.

[169] So that's really the only thing that kept me from, like, having you on three years ago.

[170] Of course, the thing that piqued my curiosity about you is the freedom dividend or...

[171] Universal basic income.

[172] Yeah.

[173] And I still...

[174] Now, I'm an admitted liberal progressive, but there's a couple of things that are talked about on the left that I just don't know how I feel about.

[175] Or I guess maybe I know how I feel about, but I'm open to be changed.

[176] One is free college.

[177] I just don't know that that is tenable with the price of college.

[178] That's one of my issues.

[179] But then also UBI.

[180] I have a couple issues with UBI, but I think it'd be best for you to lay it out for me and for the audience of why it's a good idea.

[181] before I give you my issues.

[182] But real quick, real quick.

[183] Free college doesn't mean free Stanford.

[184] Why not?

[185] No, it's saying that anyone can get a free education somewhere.

[186] It's not saying that every person is entitled to go to like a $100 ,000 university.

[187] I don't know that that's what's being said.

[188] If you're a poor kid and you get into Stanford, the left would like to pay for you.

[189] There are different versions of quote unquote free college.

[190] One might be you can go to any community college.

[191] for free, which I think a lot of people find reasonable.

[192] Another is you can go to any public university for free.

[193] So where you all are, that might be Cal State or even one of the UCs.

[194] So there are different versions of it.

[195] But in the big debt forgiveness proposal, the college debt forgiveness, I'm presuming that they're including all these private schools in that debt forgiveness, no?

[196] Oh, the debt forgiveness that they're going for is, I think, for any institution.

[197] I think you're right.

[198] Okay, so UBI.

[199] What first drew you to the idea of this?

[200] When did you get interested in And why is it a good and sustainable plan?

[201] Well, I'd love to give you a bit of like an arc because in my case, I came to it over a period of years.

[202] So I went to law school here in New York and then was an unhappy lawyer very briefly.

[203] Five months, I heard you made it.

[204] Five months.

[205] Five months, yes.

[206] And then I left to start an ill -fated .com.

[207] And then I worked in various growth companies and tech startups for about 10 years, became the head of an education company that did well and was bought by a public company.

[208] in 2009.

[209] And then in 2011, I started this nonprofit called Venture for America.

[210] And the goal of Venture for America is to help create jobs all over the country by helping train entrepreneurs to operate in cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, and New Orleans.

[211] Where did you grow up, Dax?

[212] I should know this.

[213] Detroit.

[214] Detroit.

[215] Oh, I've spent a lot of time in Detroit.

[216] I bet.

[217] So the goal was to help rejuvenate economies all over the country, all regions.

[218] And I did that work for six and a half years.

[219] And through entrepreneurship, yeah?

[220] Yeah, yeah, no, it's through entrepreneurship.

[221] So we would channel enterprising college graduates to startups and growth companies.

[222] And then if they wanted to start their own company, we had a little seed fund to invest in them.

[223] The goal was to help cultivate the next generation of entrepreneur.

[224] I just thought that we didn't have enough people starting companies in places like your hometown in Detroit.

[225] Well, I just wanted to really put a fine point on that because I think if the only thing you know about Andrew Yang is UBI, you might think he's just in the handout business, but you are very much in the entrepreneurial business.

[226] Oh, I love entrepreneurship.

[227] I just want to help create more.

[228] And so I did that work for six and a half years.

[229] And I saw a lot of the country that I had not seen before.

[230] I had not been to Michigan or Ohio, Missouri, Alabama, Louisiana, all these places that I worked in for those six and a half years.

[231] And I frankly was staggered by what I saw and not in a good way, where it just seemed like we had gutted so many places.

[232] We had eliminated four million manufacturing jobs over the last.

[233] number of years, and they were predominantly based in Michigan, Ohio, Missouri, Western Pennsylvania.

[234] And so imagine doing that work for five years and then Donald Trump becomes president.

[235] And it's like you kind of saw like this title wave that was sweeping away millions of livelihoods and then Trump wins.

[236] And then you're looking up saying, oh my gosh, like what is the plan now?

[237] And so I spent years working on developing entrepreneurs and that included working with a lot of techies.

[238] And so a lot of the techies started to be concerned about how artificial intelligence and other technologies were going to eliminate a lot of jobs.

[239] And when I was reading through their research, a lot of them came to something called Universal Base Gangaum at the time.

[240] They were like, look, if we really get rid of the truck drivers, the call center workers, the retail workers, the administrative clerks, and on and on, like, eventually you're going to need a new way to get value into people's hands.

[241] And they kept proposing, universal basic income.

[242] So when I first read about this, it was in maybe 2014, let's say, and I read about it and said, wow, that's like a big idea.

[243] That's a good idea.

[244] I think we should do that.

[245] And then Trump wins.

[246] And then in my mind, we didn't really understand what was happening to our economy.

[247] The changes were going to speed up.

[248] And unfortunately, fast forward to today, a lot of the changes I was concerned about have become real, where you have at this point, tens of thousands of retail stores closing and a lot of the most common jobs, like, disappearing.

[249] Can I add one thing really, like just on the manufacturing side is it's really, I think, pertinent to state that manufacturing in the U .S. is not dropped at all.

[250] It's simply become automated, right?

[251] Like, we still manufacture a tremendous amount of things.

[252] It's like we get sold.

[253] They all went overseas, but in general, a lot of them got just automated now.

[254] So to your point, Dax, we make a lot of stuff still, for sure.

[255] And the point I was making on the trail was, like, if you go to one of these factories in your hometown of Detroit, you'll see a lot of robot arms where there used to be humans.

[256] So the manufacturing employment base went from something like 17 million Americans to 12 million Americans.

[257] And a lot of that 5 million employee loss is because of robots.

[258] Yeah, even like Trump's big campaign issue was coal mining and never wanted to acknowledge that they hadn't lost the jobs that robots were doing them now or automation was doing them now.

[259] Yeah, there's a lot of technology doing the jobs that people used to do.

[260] So I settled on the fact that we needed something like universal basic income in the wake of Trump's election.

[261] And so there's a very long -winded way of saying, you know, like this is how I arrived at it after a period of years.

[262] But what universal basic income is is a policy where everyone in the society gets a certain amount of money to meet your basic needs, no questions asked.

[263] And I was running out a thousand bucks a month, freedom dividend or $12 ,000 a year, which seemed awfully dramatic at the time.

[264] though I will say it seems a lot less dramatic now.

[265] And now we've gotten 1 ,200 and then 600 and then 1 ,400.

[266] And 55 % of Americans are for universal basic income at this point, 85 % are for some form of cash relief during the pandemic.

[267] This American Rescue Plan, I think it has something like a 72 % approval rating in large part because people appreciate the cash infusion.

[268] But I got to say, that was not the case when I was running for president, circa 2018, 2019.

[269] It was not like, oh, yeah.

[270] It was like, oh, Yang, like, wants to give everyone a thousand bucks a month.

[271] That's a bridge too far.

[272] Right.

[273] And what would the benefits of that be before I start sounding my fears?

[274] Sure.

[275] It would make people mentally healthier, better able to learn, more trusting, more optimistic.

[276] It would create millions of jobs around the country because of all the buying power that would go back into local economies.

[277] It would enable people to transition from shrinking industries to growing ones.

[278] unable people to relocate.

[279] Americans, at least pre -COVID, were moving across state lines at lower levels than they had in decades.

[280] So even as the economy was shifting, people were just staying where they were and that was not working out very well.

[281] Writing out the decline?

[282] Yeah.

[283] And then frankly, the atmosphere would get more and more negative in a lot of these communities.

[284] If you've ever seen the opiate crisis tracked against the economy in these areas, it's just like the most perfectly correlated graphs.

[285] Now, fundamentally, we've been dominated by a mindset of scarcity in this country.

[286] And a mindset of scarcity is there's not enough to go around.

[287] If someone else gets something, then that means I get less.

[288] And if someone is coming into the country as an example, then it's like taking stuff away from me. And the opposite of a mindset of scarcity is a mindset of abundance, where if you put even a modest amount of money into people's hands and they're out of deprivation on a a month -to -month basis.

[289] Studies have shown that it has a functional impact of increasing their IQ by 13 points, which is one standard deviation.

[290] So when you ask about the impact of something like a thousand bucks a month, it would probably make us one standard deviation smarter as a nation.

[291] And I'm going to suggest that right now, if people sense that we're getting less reasonable and less rational, like a significant part of that is that half Americans can't pay their bills.

[292] And if you can't pay your bills, then you're using all of your energy doing these time, money tradeoffs, to scrape by here and there.

[293] And then if I ask you about something like climate change and you're like, ah, like, yeah, for real.

[294] Like, that's my issue right now.

[295] I got to feed my family.

[296] Yeah.

[297] And you might have seen some of this in Michigan where you grew up, Dax.

[298] You know, it's very hard to get someone to care about something very big and far reaching and maybe in the future if their immediate concerns aren't being met.

[299] Yeah, I always kind of say, anytime we start discussing like healthy food, the environment, all these things I always just try to say as a reminder, like these are wonderful things to care about if you have the bandwidth to care about them.

[300] Shaming everyone into thinking that that should be their number one concern when they literally have a car that doesn't work and they need to get to work or their kids can't eat, that's more pressing.

[301] Universal Basic Income has the potential to pick people's heads up and allow us to actually focus on some of the bigger pressing problems of our day because folks would actually feel like, okay, like I'm going to be here next month.

[302] My kid's going to be here, like, you know, X years from now.

[303] So maybe I should start thinking about the future.

[304] Well, I wonder if we'll agree on this and or if I'm even right historically about this.

[305] But an attitude of abundance I'm a big embracer of, right?

[306] Sometimes when I get bogged down in the white privilege debate, the thing I'm frustrated with is that white people should just believe that there is enough to bring everyone up to their same state of privilege without anyone losing.

[307] It's not that we're going to flatten out everything and average everything and some people are going down and some people are coming up.

[308] The goal should just be everyone should come up.

[309] everyone should have the exact same level of privilege that a white person has.

[310] Yeah, or at least have a shot at like a decent life and not know that just because you're born in this neighborhood in these circumstances that you can pretty much write that kid off.

[311] I mean, you know, it's a terrible state of affairs right now for a lot of people.

[312] And I'll actually say it's like this isn't just a purely black -white thing in that.

[313] You could make the very same claim about people who are growing up in Appalachio or really beleaguered parts of the country that are suffering with poverty.

[314] There's more poor white people than any other poor people, funny enough, so.

[315] Yeah, I was always trying to make an argument around, like, look, like, these are things that we can all get behind.

[316] There's actually an argument Dr. King made, too.

[317] When Dr. King was fighting for guaranteed minimum income before he was killed, he said, like, we need to unite with our poor white brothers and sisters who are suffering similarly.

[318] And then he got killed literally like two weeks later.

[319] So I genuinely think that the fact that we are casting these issues onto some groups and not others is missing a massive opportunity.

[320] Like, we all ought to be able to unite around this.

[321] Well, I've been very critical of just my party's messaging in that if I'm poor and white, I don't really think there's a plan for me. I think there's a plan for LGBTQ, and I think there's a plan for BLM, and I think there's a plan.

[322] I'm hearing the plan for those things, but I'm not hearing the one for the poor white people.

[323] So I've worried about that.

[324] It was pretty wild, Dax, because I came on the scene saying, hey, universal -based income, and started giving everyone money.

[325] And then it was just a new approach.

[326] And there were people who were used to another approach who were like, oh, what do I make of this approach?

[327] And there were a non -trivial number of Trump supporters who liked the fact that I was calling out some of the problems that they saw around them.

[328] And there was one poll that showed that I would get 10 % or more of Trump voters to vote for me if I became the nominee.

[329] Yeah, I believe that.

[330] Which is something that we put out there all the time because the Democrats' number one concern was beating Trump.

[331] And so I was like, look, guys, like, I might be able to beat Trump.

[332] I've got to be some other people.

[333] so that was an argument that we were using for a while because it was based on numbers you know like i am the math guy okay so back to abundance so an example i would give of this because i'm of the opinion that it's infinite simply because the whole thing's a mental construct so money value all these things aren't mental constructs and i think when you look at pre -civil war when we still had our currency tied to gold that just implicitly made it finite because there is a finite amount of known gold on the planet.

[334] So even just from its inception, anchoring it to something that's finite, kind of controlled what it could become.

[335] And then all of a sudden, you saw, right, the North start printing money as they needed to pay for the Civil War and detaching from the gold standard.

[336] And now all of a sudden the economy grew exponentially.

[337] And guess what?

[338] It didn't collapse.

[339] It just everyone bought into that.

[340] You know, the number one thing I got on the trail when I was pitching this was how are we going to pay for it?

[341] Or what's going to be one of my questions.

[342] Oh, yeah, no. Or where are we going to get the money?

[343] Mm -hmm.

[344] And then I would say to folks, I'd be like, look, we've got a $22 trillion economy.

[345] We spent $4 trillion bailing out Wall Street during their crisis.

[346] And during that time, do you think anyone was looking around saying, like, where are we going to get the money?

[347] Where are we going to get the money?

[348] Like, push came to shop for Wall Street.

[349] We found $4 trillion.

[350] We can do this.

[351] If you do the math on a $22 trillion economy, like, we actually could give people this amount of money and it'd be okay.

[352] And a lot of people struggled to believe me. But then this past year, you saw a $2 .2 trillion CARES Act, which, by the way, was enough to give every American $1 ,000 a month for six months.

[353] So the $1 ,200 we got, the money that went to families of the $2 .2 trillion CARES Act was about 14 % of the total money.

[354] Like, if people think that we got that money, we did not get that money.

[355] And then we just passed another $1 .9 trillion American Rescue Plan, which I love.

[356] I'm a huge fan of it.

[357] And on this one, everyone's getting $1 ,400.

[358] We're getting about 31 % of the American Rescue Plan, like the families.

[359] Who's getting the rest?

[360] Small business?

[361] I wish it were small businesses, man. Like, you name it, they're probably getting, like, a bailout.

[362] I mean, you're like a various industries.

[363] The money's going, and again, I'm for this.

[364] Yeah, it's better to keep these employers with people on their sheet, right?

[365] At some stage, it's strategic.

[366] So I guess they're like two things.

[367] Like, one is like, is it worth spending, let's call it $4 trillion to help support a $22 trillion economy that's falling apart?

[368] Yes.

[369] And then after that, you have to make a decision, well, what's the optimal use?

[370] of the $4 trillion.

[371] And my argument was like, look, you should not be spending $2 .2 trillion and only have 14 % of it go to people and families.

[372] Yeah.

[373] Like, that's way too low.

[374] Also, this is borderline rude, but it's a fact.

[375] When you give people that money, especially lower income people, it is immediately infusing into the economy.

[376] Yeah, they're going to spend it.

[377] 100 % of it is coming back in the door.

[378] All I used to joke all the times is like, if I snuck into Jeff Bezos's bank account and gave him a thousand bucks, they would have zero.

[379] impact on the economy.

[380] It would be like one digit change in one of his accounts and no one would even notice.

[381] You could give them a billion and it wouldn't find its way in.

[382] Yeah.

[383] But if you give any of the bottom 75 % of Americans a thousand bucks, like it'll find its way in the economy.

[384] That's just the way we are right now.

[385] Yeah.

[386] So in some ways you could be positioning UBI as almost a stimulus program, no?

[387] Yes.

[388] So the argument was, look, this is capitalism where income doesn't start at zero.

[389] And capitalism functions much, much worse.

[390] if you don't have money to spend, if you don't have a middle class, if you can't participate, if you give people enough so that they can actually enter the market, and then you also give rise to a whole new set of entrepreneurial opportunities because the argument I made is like, look, let's say you're in a town of 10 ,000 people, and you say you want to start a bakery.

[391] Right now it's a terrible idea because people don't have much money to spend and like it's not going to work.

[392] If I give everyone in that town a thousand bucks a month, like all of a sudden you've got tens of millions more flowing through that economy every freaking month.

[393] And then if you start a bakery, all of a sudden, it's a good idea.

[394] And if the bakery doesn't work out, you'll survive because you're getting enough money so that you at least have something to fall back on.

[395] And then you go out and you'll hire a few people.

[396] So one of the reasons why I'm for this is because I'm so pro -entrepreneurship for what it means, not just for the economy, but for humanity, for human beings.

[397] There's so many people right now with this boot on their throat that would love to do something creative or positive that solves a problem that they see.

[398] but many of them will never have that opportunity.

[399] And so if you can introduce something like a freedom dividend, then you would give rise not just to people being able to meet their basic needs, but you would see this whole new flourishing of creativity, entrepreneurship, empathy, I believe.

[400] So it became about advancing the human condition.

[401] And that sounds very elevated, but that's what drove me during the presidential.

[402] I was like, I'm fighting to accelerate the evolution of our species.

[403] And all I have to do is get 40 ,000 Iowans on board.

[404] Like, I said that to myself like a botra.

[405] Okay, so I love everything you've said.

[406] The couple things that concern me is not new, but when I did the math, and if we say there's 209 million adult Americans, and you give them all $12 ,000 a year, that's $2 .5 trillion a year, yeah?

[407] Yeah, that's order of magnitude correct.

[408] Yeah, totally.

[409] Okay.

[410] And so, and as you already said, we've got like a $21 .4 trillion economy, so you're looking at like above 10 % is going to go to this.

[411] And then my other concern was our total federal income tax receipts are $1 .72 trillion.

[412] If you count Social Security and whatnot, we get to $3 .5 trillion.

[413] So I'm curious, if we're only taking in $1 .72 trillion in federal income tax, and the federal government's going to give away $2 .5 trillion for this UBI, I mean, quite literally, where does that extra $800 million come from?

[414] So here was my big fix.

[415] And it's tied to some of the problems with our current system of taxation.

[416] So one of the arguments I made to folks was, hey, let's say Google comes up with software that can do the work of call center workers.

[417] Right now, there are two million call center workers making like $14 an hour.

[418] And by the way, they pay taxes.

[419] So I said, let's say Google comes up with the software, which by the way it did, like how much tax revenue are we going to see from that?

[420] And then people think about it and are like, how much do you see?

[421] And then you look at Google's effective tax rate and you realize it's very, very low that Amazon literally paid zero in taxes.

[422] that if you're a multinational tech company, you're not going to pay a meaningful tax rate the way our system is set up right now.

[423] So the argument I made to folks is like, look, it's going to get worse and worse because the biggest winners in the 21st century economy are going to be the inventors of AI and the software and whatnot.

[424] And we're not going to see much tax from them at all.

[425] I ran the same thing where I said, let's say I come up with self -driving trucks, which I have friends working on.

[426] It's literally like tens of billions of dollars a year of savings opportunity.

[427] So if you're an investor, you can invest a billion dollars trying to solve this problem.

[428] And let's say you solve it, how much in tax revenue are we going to get from something that's going to decimate three and a half million truck driving jobs?

[429] And so what you have to do is you have to try and transition your tax system to something that's going to harvest the gains from the AI, the software, the Amazon's.

[430] And so I said, we need to shift gears from this current personal income and corporate income because it's not working.

[431] They can clearly game it to a value -added tax, which is something that, just about every other developed country has already figured out because if you have a value added tax and you get a slice of the self -driving truck savings, you get a slice of the call center savings.

[432] The federal government does.

[433] Yeah.

[434] And it's impossible to gain because you end up reporting the value if you're the company.

[435] And also the company is essentially like have to record like the exchanges they make with each other so you can't wriggle out of it.

[436] You can't game your way out of it.

[437] And every other developed countries already figure this out except for us.

[438] Like, we've been talking our way in circles.

[439] And so one of the jokes I told on the trail, Dax, is, like, I don't care about the town dentist.

[440] I care about Amazon.

[441] Right now, they're, like, pitting us against each other based upon, like, these, like, income levels and the rest of it.

[442] It's like, Amazon's a greater than a trillion -dollar company, it paid zero in taxes.

[443] Like, that's what scares the shit out of me. And so if you have something like a value -added tax, and what I was proposing was 10%.

[444] I was, like, 10 % of the robot, 10 % of the AI.

[445] And if you have that 10 %, it actually gets into, like, the order of magnitude of what you're talking.

[446] talking about like $800 billion a year, like pretty quick.

[447] It's just right now we're not designed that way.

[448] Like, that's why Jeff Bezos is worth, whatever he's worth, $180 billion post -divorce.

[449] And like, we're all looking around, like, you know, arguing about what the dentist should pay.

[450] Okay.

[451] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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[471] My second issue with it is almost the genesis of the need.

[472] So the genesis of the need is, oh, everything's going to get automated.

[473] AI is going to do all these jobs and render them redundant.

[474] And so we're going to have to address that.

[475] my only issue there is we've already done this four times we've had this exact same panic four times this is the fourth time but yeah you're generally right are we going to count animal husbandry employing the labor of animals oh yeah if you count that one then that that's a big revolution in the neolithic revolution so yes we transitioned to animal powered farming and then of course we had the industrial revolution we've had the computing revolution and each one of these waves people wanted to give up.

[476] They were certain if there was an assembly line that there would be 70 % unemployment.

[477] And that's just not come to pass.

[478] We always figure out how to stay employed.

[479] We have 400 years of history of proof that we've done it.

[480] It feels a little defeatist to say that we won't again do that.

[481] Yeah.

[482] So part of it is that this is a different animal, so to speak, than previous transitions because of the speed and the breadth of industries it touches.

[483] But the other thing, Dax, is that for me, I started digging into the numbers about how we are dealing with it even as it's happening now.

[484] And the numbers were brutally bad, like interstate migration, multi -decade low, labor force participation, multi -decade low.

[485] Even now, it's like it's 61 .5 % right now, which means that almost 4 to 10 people aren't in the labor force right now that could be.

[486] And so if you were to see like, okay, are we making these adjustments?

[487] The tough answer is that we're not.

[488] And what you said before about how opiate addiction rates were following economic trends, like any of the positive things you'd want to look for aren't there.

[489] And then the negative things you'd be scared of are there.

[490] Like deaths of despair, mental health problems, suicides, like you name it.

[491] Like they're all spiking along with pervasive financial and security, and then business starts, people moving, people being in the workforce are all heading in the wrong direction.

[492] So that's one thing.

[493] That's like just current data.

[494] But the other thing is if you look at the last industrial revolution, the one most people think of around like the turn of the century, we had massive, massive problems where Labor Day became a holiday because of mass riots that killed dozens of people.

[495] And then they said, oh, we have to try and keep the laborers happy.

[496] There was mass unrest during the time.

[497] And according to studies, like, this time is going to be several times faster and more significant than that time.

[498] And so even if you were to say, like, well, we've been through this before, it's like, well, it was actually nasty and combative and gave rise to - And we don't have Pinkerton anymore.

[499] Yeah, and like that time gave rise to labor unions and Universal High School.

[500] And so this is one of the things that Monica and others are looking at is like, okay, what is the analogous move to Universal High School if we're going through something similar now?

[501] So that's the response is, like, have we been through a version of this?

[502] yes, like is this time somewhat different and faster?

[503] Yes.

[504] Like, and then according to what happened last time, we should actually be making massive adjustments that we're not actually making.

[505] Does it feel at all defeat us to you, though?

[506] I'm a data guy.

[507] And so I just went looking for the data and I was like, okay, like, how's the adjustment going?

[508] And then it's like the adjustment is going really terribly.

[509] So then from that, I mean, I'm a very optimistic guy.

[510] Like, you know, I ran for president saying we should give everyone money.

[511] That's a very optimistic, abundant thing to do.

[512] Yeah.

[513] But the fact of the facts, like, if you look around the country, like, you think things are going well right now?

[514] I mean, like, they're really not.

[515] And then you dig into the numbers and you're like, oh, I can see why they're not.

[516] It's because your wages are stagnant and we're charging you two and a half times more for education, health care, and housing than we used to when you're losing your minds.

[517] And that's where we are.

[518] Okay.

[519] Now, another distinction I'd hope to do in your honor is you're in no way a socialist, correct?

[520] You do not think that the state should control any industry or...

[521] Again, this is capitalism where income doesn't start at zero.

[522] It's like the more modern form of capitalism.

[523] I call it human -centered capitalism.

[524] And what I'm proposing is that we should be using our own health, happiness, how our kids are doing, clean air and clean water, things like that, frankly, you speak to our quality of life as the measurements for our society as opposed to GDP, stock market returns and alike because the fact is GDP and stock market returns are going to spike with a lot of these innovations we're talking about.

[525] But they're going to leave a lot of people behind.

[526] So if you follow stock market prices, again, you'd be thinking we're doing phenomenally well.

[527] But then you look around is like, are we doing phenomenally well?

[528] Like there are a lot of people struggling.

[529] So we have to try and match up our measurements to how people are doing.

[530] So this is what I've called human -centered capitalism.

[531] It's just capitalism where the goal is how people are doing and not how a certain certain set of companies are doing.

[532] Did you read the broken ladder by chance?

[533] I always recommend this book.

[534] Unfortunately, I have not, but I've heard great things.

[535] It's so fantastic.

[536] And of course, it made me incredibly aware of income inequality.

[537] And you can't put the book down and not acknowledge like, yes, enormous, enormous issue, probably driving many other societal issues.

[538] And then the question is, yeah, how on earth do you solve it without being a socialist country or a communist country?

[539] And so I guess I can concede that if we do all have the goal, this, I guess, does feel still firmly rooted in capitalism, which would be my preference.

[540] Like, I would love for us to figure out the income inequality, but I would also like to preserve capitalism a system.

[541] I do think acts and reacts better than any other system.

[542] Now, putting money into people's hands, in my mind, is the next stage of capitalism and make it respond much, much better to more people.

[543] Because right now, capitalism is going to respond to some of us.

[544] a whole lot.

[545] Let's say you live in, frankly, like an urban core and you have discretionary income.

[546] And then it's going to pay attention to other folks much, much less.

[547] Let's say you live in a rural area and your economy is getting depleted.

[548] And so you're seeing all these political manifestations of this where a lot of people are saying like, hey, this is now working for me. And so to me, this is a way to balance it out in a really human way.

[549] And it's to what you said earlier.

[550] It's like, look, why don't we just try and give people a boost, give people a lift?

[551] And if we did that, it would not hurt other people.

[552] Well, one thing I will say, too, even if I'm not entirely sold on it, I will say I'm totally open to a fucking three -year experiment.

[553] We could weather a three -year experiment.

[554] We could test this hypothesis.

[555] We could afford to try it.

[556] And certainly we've not tried anything new in ages.

[557] And we have a very predictable trajectory of what that gap is.

[558] We know where it'll be in 10 years without intervention.

[559] It's quite linear in that way.

[560] And so I am up for an experiment, you know?

[561] Let's do it, Dax.

[562] I love it.

[563] And I got to say it's not just the two of us.

[564] Like there are some very, very pro -capitalist folks like Ray Dahlia of Bridgewater and Jamie Diamond or J .P. Morgan who looked at the numbers about like, this is not working.

[565] And we have to think bigger about what would work.

[566] So what you're driving at with like, let's run like massive pilots or like do this for like a year or two, I think is dead on.

[567] And the data we've gotten early on from like, the earlier cash stimulus has been tremendously positive.

[568] All of the things that people were concerned about were frankly, largely addressed over this past 12 months of real -life data.

[569] Well, by the way, Wall Street knows the outcome.

[570] They know it goes directly into the economy, and that's exactly why the thing has been on a tear.

[571] Yeah, there are a lot of corporate types who love this.

[572] This is like very, very pro -consumer, which is good for them.

[573] I do think the stimulus checks is a good easing into the pool for people because it seems so crazy.

[574] The idea seems so crazy.

[575] And then when we needed it, it felt like an actual need.

[576] Then people were like, oh, okay, yeah, we should have it.

[577] And I think it's going well.

[578] People like it.

[579] So it's a good stepping stone, I think.

[580] Yeah, it's almost like the argument to be one is that we have needed it.

[581] Yeah, exactly.

[582] That's like if you could link people's recognition, we needed it during Corona with the reality that we need it in general.

[583] Yeah.

[584] Yes.

[585] You hit the nail on the head.

[586] Monica.

[587] But yeah, it's that when people have been getting it now, the impacts have been tremendously positive, both on like the family level and also the economy -wide level.

[588] I think cash is here to stay myself.

[589] And more and more economists are looking at it being like, this is actually the most effective thing we've ever done.

[590] Wow.

[591] Apparently kids are calling it Stimmy.

[592] Ooh.

[593] Yeah.

[594] That's kind of hot.

[595] Yeah, stimmy.

[596] I will share something with you too as well.

[597] So I'm running for mayor of New York City and like I walked around.

[598] I didn't want you to bring that up.

[599] Right before Monica's question, I was like, All right, let's talk about what you're going to do for New York City.

[600] So just know I was here to do it.

[601] No, but I just want to share this with you.

[602] I walk around the streets of New York City every day.

[603] And because people are getting their stimulus checks, they actually come to me and be like, yay, like, got my check and, like, give me actually some credit for it.

[604] It's the greatest feeling in the world.

[605] I'm like, I'm so glad that people are loving it and actually think I had something to do with it.

[606] Well, many of my best friends still live in Michigan.

[607] My primary best friend lives in Michigan.

[608] And he wasn't a Trump supporter, but he said, you know, a lot of our dudes, man they got a check from him and that talks like that was a thing like it has to be acknowledged like whoever gives you that life raft guess what you can overlook a lot of shit that's how fucking necessary the life raft is yeah totally you saw that on both sides like so trump delayed the checks for a few days so he could get his name on it it was probably politically savvy of him because of a lot of things I mean you know because it's powerful it made sense I don't know whose names were on this check Well, you have decided to run for mayor of New York City when we had Garcetti on.

[609] And it's really fun to learn that, you know, like California on its own is the fifth biggest economy in the world, that L .A. as a city is like 13th big.

[610] Like, those numbers are staggering.

[611] I'm just curious really quick.

[612] Like, what is New York City if it was its own thing?

[613] If New York City were its own country, we would be 11th in the world.

[614] I mean, that is really wild to think.

[615] Like, when you run for that job, mayor of New York, you are virtually taking on as much as the president of Italy would be taking on.

[616] Yeah, number 10 is Canada.

[617] So you can look at it that way.

[618] I'm like New York's right behind Canada.

[619] I'm a more Asian version of Trudeau.

[620] Slightly, just slightly.

[621] Now, what in your mind is like priority number one in New York City?

[622] Because I just want to say from the outside, I started going there in the 80s with my mother, my single mother, and it was fucking hair raising.

[623] She'd want to show us Broadway.

[624] and there's like peep shows everywhere.

[625] You know, there's a shit was going on at all hours there.

[626] And from my perspective, I've only seen New York just get like more and more and more fantastic.

[627] What am I not seeing?

[628] What does New York have to do?

[629] Number one for us is to come back from COVID in terms of getting the engine of New York's economy fired up again.

[630] So I'm a numbers guy.

[631] We are down 600 ,000 jobs, 82 % of commuters, 60 million.

[632] and tourists.

[633] So with those numbers, you have like a pretty steep climb back.

[634] I'm happy to say it looks like Broadway is going to be open later this year.

[635] I think commuters will be back in the office in a matter of weeks.

[636] But this is job number one because New York City is wounded right now economically and you're not going to be able to solve your problems if you don't have that economic activity.

[637] I mean, you think of all the restaurants and bars and food trucks and all the businesses that serve tourists every day.

[638] If the tourists aren't there and the commuters aren't there, the city is a very, very different place.

[639] So that's job number one.

[640] It's tied to the vaccine and it's tied to confidence that New York City is a great place to come gather safely and still celebrate with other people and do all the things that you want to do.

[641] I got to say of all the regions in the U .S. and how they were impacted by quarantine and corona, I would have to say New York is the worst.

[642] because the trade -off when you go to New York is you're going to fucking hate where you live.

[643] That's just, that's bottom line.

[644] There's probably 20 people in the city that love their apartment.

[645] It's a beating, but the trade -off is there's a communal energy, there is a fervor, there is an electricity.

[646] It is the most electric place to just exist.

[647] And if you get on that sidewalk, it is euphoric.

[648] And so you're making this trade -off.

[649] You don't have a backyard.

[650] You've got to fucking walk your dog a block away, all this stuff.

[651] And so during quarantine, you guys just had the shitty part, and everything that was worth the tradeoff was kind of taken away.

[652] Yeah, now we got to get it back.

[653] We have to remind people about all of the cultural attractions and the food and the nightlife and their friends and fellow artists and creatives that make New York so phenomenal, so electric, as you said.

[654] We've lost our electricity during this past period.

[655] and my number one job as mayor is going to be to get it back and then let everyone know we've got it back.

[656] I'm going to have the biggest post -COVID celebration in the country in all five boroughs.

[657] I'm going to ask my friend Dave Chappelle.

[658] You can come too, both of you.

[659] I'm going to ask my friend Dave Chappelle to headline it.

[660] We'd go to an outhouse if your friend Dave Chappelle is there.

[661] We're obsessed, yeah.

[662] Well, fantastic.

[663] Then it's a date.

[664] You guys will be there too.

[665] I'll insist that you actually step on stage tax and say something.

[666] Oh, I'd be happy to.

[667] So, and then we're going to live stream that celebration out to everyone to replace, frankly, the current images that people have of New York City with people coming together by the thousands and celebrating the city's reopening.

[668] So these are some of the things that we have to do to get people fired up about coming here again so that we can solve the problems that COVID's left behind for a lot of people.

[669] Well, our favorite restaurant in the world is in New York, Emily Burger.

[670] A couple of them.

[671] We call it Emily Burger.

[672] There's one in Brooklyn, there's one in Manhattan.

[673] It's unreal.

[674] I love this.

[675] Look, everyone's got a favorite New York restaurant.

[676] You have to come back.

[677] You have to discover another one.

[678] I do want to say this.

[679] We have interviewed several sociologists in the last four or five months who have total consensus that what's ahead of us is the roaring 20s.

[680] That was the result of the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic.

[681] And that we are going to have a celebration, the likes of which has never been seen to quote, Trump.

[682] Monica loves when I use that.

[683] No, but New York City is going to be the epicenter of that roaring 20s.

[684] That is in our future, I believe.

[685] I agree with you.

[686] I believe the exact same thing, and I cannot wait to see it unfold for the people here in New York who have been through so much.

[687] I want to take some of the resources and try and alleviate poverty here in New York City in multiple ways.

[688] So we talked about universal basic income at length.

[689] I think most New Yorkers know I'd love to give everyone a thousand bucks a month, but we're going to have to be a little bit more tactical, a little bit more targeted.

[690] But we're still going to put money to work in the form of cash relief for the extremely poor in here in New York.

[691] I want to get more people basic financial services in New York so they're not using exploitative check cashers and money lenders who are taking away some of their hard -earned cash.

[692] I want to get more people high -speed internet.

[693] Right now, 29 % of New Yorkers don't have high -speed internet at home, which has been a catastrophe during this time.

[694] So there are different things that we can do to make this the city of the future.

[695] It does, first, though, rely upon us reopening in a way that's exciting to folks.

[696] And I've also talked to people to say the same thing, that we're in for an incredible release of pent -up energy.

[697] I know we don't have you for, you're done.

[698] But while we do, I do think it's important not asking you to speak for all Asians in America, but you are a prominent Asian figure.

[699] And we're in the middle of, I think, people realizing, shining a light on these hate crimes that have increased this past year.

[700] And I didn't know if you had anything to say on that.

[701] I actually spent weeks campaigning in Georgia.

[702] So I met a lot of folks in the Asian American community there.

[703] And the shootings really broke my heart in Evelyn's heart, who was with me in Atlanta.

[704] And Asian Americans have felt targeted in a whole new way this last number of months.

[705] And so we have to do everything we can to let people know that we're all, human, we're all American, that no one should be targeted on the basis of their race.

[706] And it would be a privilege for me to help make that loud and clear as the first Asian -American mayor of New York City.

[707] But right now, the goal is really just to bring people together and let them know that they should feel safe in their own city, their own streets.

[708] I'd like to shorten it to Asian -A -Mayer.

[709] Oh, wow.

[710] Asian -A -Mayer.

[711] As opposed to Asian -American and mayor, just Asian -A -Mare -A -Mayer.

[712] Never mind.

[713] I can't say it.

[714] It's not working.

[715] It's not working.

[716] I thought I had something.

[717] A good R &D period and didn't pass the test.

[718] Didn't pass the mustard.

[719] Yeah, I think it's important for people to realize that those comments that were flippant and funny and whatever from Trump had a real impact.

[720] And maybe people haven't been paying attention to it, but it has really impacted the country in the Asian American community specifically.

[721] Yeah, I feel for kids in particular, we're going to go back to school.

[722] And we know kids can be harsh and even cruel because they don't know any better.

[723] Like I feel for like the Asian kids are going to go back to school in the next number of days and be taunted or bullied on the basis of their race.

[724] Frankly, like I grew up in an environment where that happened to me every so often, but it was nowhere near like the level of toxicity.

[725] I think it may be now.

[726] I have two boys who are eight and five.

[727] They're quite oblivious to all of this stuff.

[728] I think they'll be fine, but I do think about what the next generation is going through.

[729] Well, Andrew, you were every bit as fun as I hoped you would be.

[730] You moved my needle.

[731] I'm going to say 12 points.

[732] 12 points you moved my needle towards UBI, which is, that's a big success.

[733] Well, I'll take it, Dax.

[734] I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.

[735] Your voice of reason and progress in the world, and you're uplifting.

[736] So you moved me 12 points in a particular direction, too.

[737] Like a better, happier state of mind.

[738] I would certainly love anyone's support with his race if anyone thinks that I'm the right leader.

[739] Yeah, where would people go to help your campaign?

[740] You can just go to Andrew Yang .com.

[741] It'll redirect you to the website.

[742] And I will say that if you live in New York City, you're not going to believe this.

[743] This could be a whole other conversation.

[744] But if you live in New York City, any donation you make gets matched 8 to 1 by the city of New York.

[745] So if you give 10 bucks, New York City will give me 80 bucks.

[746] If you give 50 bucks, New York City will give me 400 bucks.

[747] That's crazy.

[748] I know.

[749] It's pretty wild.

[750] And it goes all the way up to $250.

[751] The New York City will then give me $2 ,000.

[752] So if you ever wanted your donation to have nine times the impact, like, this is your chance.

[753] Yeah, if you're looking for a 9x gain on something, this is the way to do it.

[754] Yeah, it's been good fun.

[755] We have more grassroots donations than anyone else in the race.

[756] We've got a great chance to win.

[757] And then the real work will begin of getting the greatest city in the world back on its feet as quickly as possible.

[758] But I'm excited.

[759] I think we can do it.

[760] I'm excited, too.

[761] I would love to visit there with you as the mayor.

[762] Of all the things we've missed out on in the last year, I bet Monica and I, once a week go like, oh, my God, it's been 18 months since we've been in New York.

[763] Yeah, it's itchy.

[764] I miss it so much.

[765] I will host you both.

[766] It will be delightful and glorious.

[767] And then we'll put a social media post up, and it will generate millions in additional commerce for New York City.

[768] All right, Andrew, good luck with everything.

[769] Huge pleasure talking to you.

[770] I'm sure we will do that again soon.

[771] Thank you both.

[772] Be safe out west.

[773] We'll see you soon here in New York City.

[774] Bye, everyone.

[775] Bye.

[776] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[777] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Badman.

[778] Do you want to tell people about our moment of soulmate proof?

[779] It also was scary.

[780] Yeah, this actually freaked you out.

[781] Yeah.

[782] Okay, so we were texting when I was in Washington and you said, oh, I'm getting very weird in my apartment.

[783] I said, I'm losing it a little bit.

[784] There we go.

[785] I'm losing it a little bit.

[786] And I said, why?

[787] What are you doing?

[788] And you said, I'm singing a song about.

[789] Zantham gum.

[790] Zantham gum.

[791] That I made up.

[792] Yes.

[793] You said, I made up a song about Xantham gum and I've been singing it over and over again.

[794] And I said, oh, my God, I want to hear it.

[795] And I said, no. And you said, no. And I was pissed.

[796] Yeah.

[797] And I said, well, at least tell me the words.

[798] And you said, the only words are xanthum gum.

[799] So I called you and I said, is this the song you were singing?

[800] Xanthum gum.

[801] Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da zantham gum.

[802] And you lot like you almost, it's like you saw a ghost.

[803] I did see one.

[804] You are a ghost.

[805] That was the fucking song.

[806] Maybe you actually, you know, in the LeMorne's episode, you said you want to be invisible.

[807] And I think you learned how you were invisible in my room.

[808] Although I was in Seattle.

[809] But you got two things.

[810] Teleport.

[811] Yes.

[812] Oh, okay.

[813] Well, I can only tell you about my experience.

[814] In my experience, I'm not, I haven't learned how to do that yet.

[815] Okay.

[816] And also my experience, I was in Seattle.

[817] But it was pretty incredible.

[818] It was crazy.

[819] I mean, so that was the song.

[820] Which is insane.

[821] But I liked it so much.

[822] And you did not enjoy it.

[823] You thought like I had one of your thoughts was that when I hooked up your sonos, I like somehow enabled the microphone and I can like monitor you from afar, which by the way, if you could conceive that I'm doing that, then you should end our friendship.

[824] No, to be fair, you said, what do you think?

[825] Like I listen on your sonos and I said, did you?

[826] Yeah, and then you thought I did.

[827] Then I was like, that's a weird thing to say.

[828] You probably did.

[829] What a strange thing to say.

[830] What I could tell was that it was too much of a coincidence for you.

[831] And you're like, he must have been hearing me. So then I just went to, she thinks I heard her.

[832] What do you think I could have heard you on?

[833] And then I just started trying to, you know, suggest what that could be.

[834] I didn't know for sure if you had heard me, but I did think there has to be an explanation.

[835] And I thought maybe the explanation was when we had talked earlier or something that you had been like, humming, hmm, hmm, hmm, and then it got in my head without me really knowing, and then it was still in your head.

[836] Inception.

[837] Yeah, so I still think that is a possibility.

[838] I just feel like of all the tunes, all the ditties.

[839] Yeah.

[840] In all of the world.

[841] Sure.

[842] Millions of songs.

[843] How could you possibly have picked the right ones?

[844] Something about saying Xantham out loud, I immediately was just like, well, I know what I would sing based on that, and it would be Xantham.

[845] Gum, da -da -d -do -d -o -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -t It's pretty wild.

[846] It's crazy.

[847] You were unhappy, and you wanted to stop talking about it, which I thought was really an interesting reaction.

[848] It was, it felt like a really big pop -out.

[849] It felt like an invasion of your privacy, I think.

[850] Yeah, like you had infiltrated my brain somehow.

[851] Sure, sure.

[852] Yeah, that's scary.

[853] Big pop -out.

[854] I was elated.

[855] I'm going to try to turn my attitude around.

[856] on it okay i mean one of this is very self -serving for me because you know i love guessing things and i take big risks with guessing things yeah you know yeah like today today you had a miss yeah but those are pretty rare wouldn't you agree like you don't see me stepping it that often do you no i don't but and i take some big swings but like i'll be talking to someone maybe for five minutes and i'll go are you from northern kentucky and when that that works quite often right and i love it or if I can pick up there from Dallas or you know it's just so fun can we can we get deep on that yeah do you you just think it's fun like it's it's it's charming that you could guess it or yeah I'm hoping I just wowed them because it's really fun when people like how'd you know that right I like that feeling but do you think a little bit of it is just like yeah I know everything I mean, not, I mean, I know that's not what's happening in your head because that's not what your brain will allow you to think, but subconsciously.

[857] Well, I think the ego boost for me is, I think I can tell you, because another game I like to play, I don't know if you've watched me do this, but I can, I can often pick what car people drive if I've never seen their car.

[858] Yeah.

[859] And I know, like, well, was it given to you or did you actually pick it out, you know, and was it a stretch or not a stretch?

[860] And once I have that criteria, I'm pretty good.

[861] Like, I think above 70 % of guessing what car people drive.

[862] And it's always so fun for them.

[863] And it's fun for me. And the ego boost is I know a lot about cars.

[864] Right.

[865] So that makes sense to me. Yeah.

[866] Or I get proud of myself that I've traveled so many places and I paid attention when I was there that I can then recall that if I'm talking to somebody.

[867] So that's the ego part is like, oh, yeah.

[868] I was put on this planet.

[869] and I've done my best to like roam around it and learn about it.

[870] And now here's the outcome of it.

[871] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[872] I can.

[873] It sounds gross.

[874] I think that's cousin to what I'm saying.

[875] I think the good version of it is like I'm paying attention.

[876] Uh -huh.

[877] Because like sometimes it will happen during spades.

[878] Oh, I love.

[879] You love saying out loud what is about to happen and what people have.

[880] And I am not so much a fan of this.

[881] You hate it.

[882] we've had a couple of dust -ups over it.

[883] No, but we've also come out on the other side.

[884] We've had to talk about it.

[885] We've had to have a serious talk about it.

[886] Oh, yeah.

[887] Yeah, we'd have a thing about that.

[888] But what is troubling is, like, Eric loves it.

[889] Each time he's like, how did you know he had that?

[890] Like, it's fun for him, and I enjoy doing it.

[891] So, like, it works in that relationship, but it doesn't work between you and I. Yeah.

[892] In that moment, I find it.

[893] Being no -it -allie.

[894] Leans heavily on the know -it -all side.

[895] as opposed to I'm the paying attention side.

[896] Because in that game, you are supposed to keep knowledge to yourself.

[897] So when you just like can't help yourself, to me, it feels like you have to let us know that you know.

[898] I am trying to do it to amuse people.

[899] Eric loves it.

[900] And yes, I've been wrong.

[901] But I've also like 70 % of the time I'm right.

[902] And he loves that.

[903] Yeah, but you being right in that moment for me. And I guess this is like connected to what we're saying.

[904] It's for you to be right.

[905] Well, it's both things.

[906] So it is self -serving to me and someone enjoys it.

[907] You don't.

[908] Right.

[909] But Jess does and Eric does.

[910] Some people like it.

[911] Some people like it and some people hate it.

[912] So sometimes, yes, it's complete.

[913] And if I did it around you who hates it and I'm the only person enjoying it, that's ethically a problem, which is what happened.

[914] Although Eric was also in all those games.

[915] I don't know if it's ethically a problem.

[916] Well, no, what you're pointing out is that I'm a blowhard and that.

[917] that I just get off so much on being right.

[918] Hold on, which is true.

[919] But also, me getting off on being right is also amusing to some people.

[920] And so when many people are benefiting and I'm having this selfish desire, I don't see an ethical dilemma there.

[921] But if I'm getting off on myself at the expense of you, then I'm a blow, then I'm an asshole.

[922] Right.

[923] That makes sense.

[924] Yeah.

[925] Really quick.

[926] I don't see a huge distinction between me doing that and you wanting to.

[927] win.

[928] Like, it's the same thing.

[929] You want to prove that you were better at the game than your opponent.

[930] Like, the thing you're labeling me with feels so gross.

[931] And I acknowledge it's gross.

[932] But it's, it's not different from just the desire to win, to prove you're better.

[933] So you could argue all you're trying to do is like show you're better than everyone.

[934] Well, that's a shitty motivation.

[935] But that is competing.

[936] Yeah.

[937] I mean, I can see some similarities there.

[938] I think playing a game you want to win that's just like that's what you're doing doesn't mean you're better than everyone but why do you want to win because that's why you play that's not fair so i took a walk with you and i'm happy to acknowledge that what i'm doing is ego maniacal and i'm trying to prove i understand the game really good okay so the mid i didn't bail out and just go well i do it because that's what people do so i don't want you to bail out and say you want to win because people want to win games No, what is the ego doing?

[939] What is the self -esteem doing?

[940] Like, what is happening when you fight very hard to win?

[941] Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely, I am trying to really think, is it that I am better or I am really good?

[942] To me, those are different.

[943] Like, I don't think I'm better than Jess.

[944] I'm not better than Jess.

[945] He is the best at that game, in my opinion.

[946] Of all the people I played with, a lot of times, I believe Jess to be the most professional.

[947] efficient at that game.

[948] Okay.

[949] But when I'm playing with him and I win against him, if I'm playing against him and I win, I don't think, oh, I'm better than him now.

[950] Well, you outplayed him.

[951] In that one, like, I don't, that's not the takeaway.

[952] The takeaway is like, oh, I did the best in that moment.

[953] And that feels really good.

[954] Yeah.

[955] And, but I definitely don't.

[956] And I don't think you are doing that either.

[957] I don't think you're saying like, I know the cards and no one else knows the cards.

[958] Right.

[959] I'm not.

[960] Yeah.

[961] So I guess it's similar.

[962] And also I don't say like of course you don't say I'm better and I'm the best.

[963] You say of that game I just played the best or me and my partner played the best of that game.

[964] You did because you won.

[965] Yeah.

[966] I don't sometimes know the card and say it and go, I always know the card and I'm the smartest.

[967] I just in that moment I go, oh, I know Eric.

[968] When Eric says I've got something big, it's that.

[969] so it's not like a permanent state i think i'm glorious i'm saying i don't think you're saying i'm better then i think you're just saying i know uh -huh because i desire to feel great at that game and i think winning is also the desire to feel great at that game yeah that's true that is definitely true.

[970] You guys can see why this is why we have to have these sit downs.

[971] Well, when you play a game every day, sometimes things are going to come up and you got to address it.

[972] Okay, ding, ding, ding, speaking of games, Andrew talks about the game Roadblocks.

[973] He said Roadblocks has played a lot in his house and we didn't know what that was.

[974] But since we recorded this, I learned a lot about Roadblocks.

[975] Oh, you did.

[976] to Hawaii and one of the kids knows that game really well and everyone was playing it.

[977] All the kids were playing it.

[978] Oh, this is the one was Siren.

[979] Siren Head.

[980] Oh my gosh.

[981] Oh, my gosh.

[982] Oh, boy.

[983] Delta learned about this character Sirenhead on roadblocks.

[984] He's a bad guy.

[985] He's a bad guy and she's explaining him to me and she's getting really worked up.

[986] Like she's laughing but she's getting worked up about kind of like Liz.

[987] Right.

[988] And wasn't she then having dreams about Sirenhead?

[989] Yeah.

[990] He really occupies a place in her head.

[991] And she was doing such a good job of trying to like rationalize it.

[992] She was like he's not real.

[993] But even if he was real.

[994] He is a threat, but not that big of a threat.

[995] Yeah.

[996] He's not real.

[997] But even if he was real, he couldn't get into this building because he's tall, but he is not as tall as this building.

[998] And she was just doing all this work to make it so Sirenhead wasn't too scary.

[999] Yeah.

[1000] It was really cute.

[1001] But yeah, it came from roadblocks.

[1002] Oh, okay.

[1003] Okay, so we talked a little bit about the new stimulus check, and I said when I learned from Dr. Wendy Mogul from Nurture versus Nurture that the kids are calling it Stimmy.

[1004] Oh, stimmy.

[1005] But, you know, the old checks had Trump's name on it.

[1006] Okay.

[1007] And he said, I don't know who is on the new check, so I looked.

[1008] I actually asked my brother.

[1009] Why?

[1010] Because he got it.

[1011] Oh, okay, great.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] And I texted him, and he said direct deposit.

[1014] That's what it says on?

[1015] Oh, he got direct deposit.

[1016] He has direct deposit, so he couldn't answer.

[1017] Okay.

[1018] But I looked.

[1019] President Biden's name, this was before it came out.

[1020] The White House said Tuesday that President Biden's name would not appear on the stimulus payment to be sent out to millions of American families as part of the administration's relief package.

[1021] A reversal from the precedent set under President Trump.

[1022] White House press secretary told reporters on Tuesday that the payments approved under Biden would instead be signed by a career official at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, an office within the Department of Treasury.

[1023] Very diplomatic.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] I like it.

[1026] Me too.

[1027] That's why I like Rockefeller.

[1028] You didn't put his name on anything.

[1029] Yeah.

[1030] I respect that.

[1031] Oh my gosh.

[1032] It just started a good book.

[1033] Which one?

[1034] An audiobook.

[1035] I think it's called Empire of Pain.

[1036] What's that?

[1037] It's about the Sackler family who basically, let's see, because I don't want to get sued.

[1038] They invented Oxy.

[1039] Oh, okay.

[1040] And they have been sued for creating the opioid crisis, but it like follows generations of them.

[1041] It's good.

[1042] I'm not very far.

[1043] I started it yesterday, but I like it.

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] Yeah.

[1046] As you would expect, I have an opinion on it.

[1047] Yeah, that they can't be, they can't be faulted for the opioid crisis just because they made a product.

[1048] So if that's all they had done, yes.

[1049] Like if they created a product that was.

[1050] entirely addictive and people got addicted to it and the FDA approved it.

[1051] Yeah, I don't think that's an issue.

[1052] They allegedly funded science and sent doctors out on the road to urge physicians to stop treating pain management in the way they had been and downplayed the addictive nature.

[1053] So once you are employing people and, again, I don't know, this is all alleged, that they They manipulated results, inflated one paper that wasn't really vetted.

[1054] If they've done all that, now to me you've got a criminal enterprise.

[1055] You're actively trying to deceive the public with something dangerous.

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] But if you're like, cigarettes are fucking gnarly.

[1058] They'll kill your ass.

[1059] If you want to smoke and go crazy, I'm fine with that.

[1060] Yeah.

[1061] So I'm going to keep listening.

[1062] Oh, who wrote it?

[1063] Any like famous, uh.

[1064] I think so.

[1065] I think this person wrote something else very popular.

[1066] popular.

[1067] Pinocchio?

[1068] It's by Patrick Radden -Keefe.

[1069] Don't recognize the name.

[1070] He wrote Say Nothing.

[1071] I guess it's another popular book.

[1072] Oh, okay, great.

[1073] How did you come across this book?

[1074] Do one of your friends recommend it?

[1075] Sarah Jessica Parker recommended it.

[1076] Of course.

[1077] Well, your good friend, SJP.

[1078] She is a wordsmith.

[1079] Mm, okay.

[1080] Very well read.

[1081] Okay.

[1082] And you trust.

[1083] I do.

[1084] She's a trusted brand in Rex.

[1085] Recommendations.

[1086] Yeah, that's right.

[1087] So, um, listen to that if you'd like on Audible.

[1088] Okay.

[1089] So I listened to the fact check on Michael Moss while I was driving around Washington.

[1090] Uh -huh.

[1091] First of all, I love that episode.

[1092] You know, sometimes when we're interviewing people, I can't, like, I can't take on the info the way I would if I was listening to someone else's podcast.

[1093] Of course, yeah.

[1094] And so like, when we have certain guests on that I was really it in and after I'm like I want to be able to hear them without any responsibility on my play he was so delightful incredibly in that fact check you said that I often talk with the only intention of creating like clever sentences and not I said you can yeah that's how you talk always no right that sometimes that happened and then now this one I got that I I'm um That I'm, I'm just trying to show that I'm a know it all.

[1095] I'm just, I'm just posing questions.

[1096] You pose questions to me as well.

[1097] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1098] Well, I don't think there are questions.

[1099] You have those opinions, right?

[1100] No, I'm asking.

[1101] I'm asking, I'm trying to have a conversation about it.

[1102] Like, what is the root of these things?

[1103] Is that the root?

[1104] Is that not?

[1105] Yeah.

[1106] Like you said about this, you brought it up wanting to guess things.

[1107] You love guessing things.

[1108] And I'm curious, like, okay, so what is?

[1109] What is that?

[1110] What is that about?

[1111] If that is something you're super interested in continuing to do.

[1112] Yeah, but I strive to be a self -aware person.

[1113] Like I said, if I thought, I'd like to think I'm taking stock of whether people hate it or enjoy it.

[1114] Yeah.

[1115] First and foremost, but.

[1116] That's fair.

[1117] But just, I just heard that fact check yesterday on my way to the airport.

[1118] And now I'm hearing this.

[1119] So I am wondering if globally you think I am a narcissist?

[1120] What would be the, what's the blanket for those?

[1121] two things.

[1122] That's so extreme.

[1123] No, I don't think you're a narcissist.

[1124] But if what we do here is talk about some of our things and call it out.

[1125] I'm just, I'm asking, do you think I have a blanket issue I need to look at?

[1126] I mean, you know that I think sometimes you're very arrogant.

[1127] Uh -huh.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] I think I'm arrogant too.

[1130] Definitely not all the time.

[1131] Not even most of the time, I don't think, because I don't think you would be a fun person to be around if you were.

[1132] A smattering of arrogance.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] I was just wondering.

[1135] I don't have to ask those questions anymore.

[1136] No, no, no, no. That's not why I asked.

[1137] I asked, are we inching toward an observation I'm inviting you to just make?

[1138] Like if you think I have a...

[1139] If I thought you were a narcissist, I would likely have more distance from you.

[1140] That's true.

[1141] I feel like we can have these conversations means you're not a narcissist.

[1142] It means you can take on information and hear it.

[1143] converse on it yeah and if i thought you were unable to hear things i wouldn't bring them up you wouldn't waste your time exactly but i also don't want to hurt your feelings ever so i no no i don't want you to not do anything you're not thinking like if you're thinking oh he why does he love he's always trying to guess like is he just getting off on that he thinks he knows everything i want to i want to know that and I want to consider whether I need to change my behavior.

[1144] I'm not suggesting you change your behavior unless the impetus is like, yeah, I just want to prove that I know, but it's, you're saying it's not and I think you're right it's probably not.

[1145] No, I'm admitting it's some.

[1146] Yeah, I'm admitting on my side of the street that is my motive.

[1147] But only if the other party is amused by having had something guessed about them.

[1148] Right, right, right.

[1149] But also it's, you said, which I think is also true, also I want you to know I'm paying attention to the world around.

[1150] And that, so that when you said that, I was like, oh, okay, that is a different way of coming at it.

[1151] That's why I asked, like what is, what is under it.

[1152] Yeah.

[1153] And it works on the spades level, too.

[1154] Like, it could also be, well, I'm just.

[1155] paying attention, and I think that's fun and interesting to let people know.

[1156] I would say the grossest part of me doing that, if I'm being dead honest, is sometimes I'm doing it to demonstrate if you pay attention you can know.

[1157] That's probably the grossest part of why I have done it sometimes.

[1158] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1159] That makes sense.

[1160] Yeah.

[1161] Without saying to someone, hey, you need to pay attention.

[1162] Yeah.

[1163] That makes sense.

[1164] But sometimes I want to demonstrate like, oh, if you pay attention, you can know this.

[1165] Yeah.

[1166] And I'm sure that triggers me because we're never on the same team.

[1167] Right, because we're not a good team.

[1168] We are a good team.

[1169] We're a great team, but not in games.

[1170] Not in games.

[1171] We're never on the same team.

[1172] I know that you know what's happening.

[1173] Right.

[1174] But I also know some people are not paying attention.

[1175] And if they're not on my team, I want them to keep not paying attention.

[1176] That's true.

[1177] So it goes against your interests.

[1178] It does.

[1179] It does.

[1180] Counter to your interest.

[1181] Guys, play Spades.

[1182] It's so good, you guys.

[1183] Don't let this color your opinion of Spades.

[1184] Most people do it without any issue.

[1185] I'm sure they do.

[1186] Although it's funny because we got introduced to Spades by Jess.

[1187] Uh -huh.

[1188] He has played with these three other guys for years.

[1189] They have a weekly game.

[1190] Brian.

[1191] Brian, Andrew, and Roland.

[1192] Uh -huh.

[1193] And Jess was saying, like, they just resumed last week.

[1194] Uh -huh.

[1195] And he was like, oh, my God.

[1196] I forgot...

[1197] The intensity?

[1198] Yes.

[1199] And so, of course, when he starts playing with us, he's intense because that's what he's coming from.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] And the same just taught Laura, Matt, and I first.

[1202] And so the four of us played in a tournament for a really long time.

[1203] And it was serious.

[1204] Right.

[1205] So then when we were, when we transitioned into this like big group game, it's much less serious.

[1206] And I think the like...

[1207] Well, that was another chapter in your and I's debate, which was at a certain point, I said to you, I'm not playing it to win as much as I'm playing it to have lots of laughs for that two hours.

[1208] Like I would never play a game where we're quiet concentrating.

[1209] And then the incentive was just to have victory.

[1210] I wanted to be like fun and playful.

[1211] Totally.

[1212] And anything I do is a vehicle for that.

[1213] Which is very admirable.

[1214] And I, and when we play in our tournament, most of the time we're silent.

[1215] Uh -huh.

[1216] Yeah.

[1217] Yeah.

[1218] So it is, it is just different.

[1219] Yeah, you just have to define which version you, everyone's interested in and just be open about it.

[1220] Yeah.

[1221] And once we had that talk, I do think I was like, oh, this is going to be different than that.

[1222] And that's fine.

[1223] And that's fun.

[1224] And it's okay.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] Everything's okay.

[1227] We're going to play right now.

[1228] We are going to play right now.

[1229] That's why I was looking at my watch.

[1230] I love you.

[1231] I love you.

[1232] expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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