Gwyneth Paltrow

[0] Welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dax Shepard.

[2] And I'm miniature mouths.

[3] Oh, maximum mouse.

[4] What do I say about you and you're feeling very virile?

[5] Powerful.

[6] Maximum mouse.

[7] Yeah.

[8] We have a very fun guest today.

[9] Oh, boy, do we?

[10] Gwyneth Paltrow.

[11] Who?

[12] Gwyneth Bucking Paltrow.

[13] You know her?

[14] She's in Iron Man. She went an Academy Award in the, what was the movie?

[15] Shakespeare and Love.

[16] Shakespeare and Love.

[17] Yeah.

[18] She, of course, is the founder of Goop, which is a, what is that, a lifestyle, explain that to me, Monica.

[19] It is.

[20] It's a website that is sort of all -encompassing, healthy lifestyle.

[21] Curating a healthy lifestyle.

[22] Clothing, food, Home decor.

[23] There's some home decor on there, I think, but sexual wellness.

[24] There's a bunch of stuff.

[25] It's a very nice website.

[26] You're a consumer of goop as I absolutely am.

[27] In the fact check, we'll learn all about how much you let goop.

[28] Yeah.

[29] But I had met her a couple times in real life But I fell in love with her on Howard Stern.

[30] I was just overwhelmed with her normalness and her honesty and her humility.

[31] And we'll get into all that because she's a triggering person.

[32] She triggers people.

[33] We talk about it.

[34] We're going to get into that.

[35] She's really open about that, too, which I love.

[36] I love it too.

[37] So without further ado, I give you Gwyneth Paltrow.

[38] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and, and ad free right now.

[39] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[40] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[41] Gwen and Paltrow, this is very, very exciting to have you for a number of reasons.

[42] One is just a gigantic fan.

[43] Two, no, you very thinly, socially, like we've had maybe six or seven conversations.

[44] But impactful ones, at least for me. No, that's what I want to get into.

[45] That's what I want to get into.

[46] As luck would have it or not have it, I had a couple toes removed, but 24 hours ago.

[47] Oh, my God.

[48] And so I'm not at my best.

[49] I was late.

[50] Let me own that.

[51] I was late, which is humiliating.

[52] I arrived on crutches.

[53] I just took some medication that I don't get to use because I'm sober.

[54] I want to make a lot of apologies going into this.

[55] Okay.

[56] You've set the tone.

[57] Also, you drove out here, which is a big thing for us in Los Angeles, right?

[58] Yeah, I mean, I actually really, it's weird.

[59] I think when I've got so many, I've got so much happening in my life that I'm sort of now welcoming if I have to get in the car.

[60] I can listen to a podcast.

[61] I can call people.

[62] It's kind of like this beautiful respite in the day.

[63] So I don't mind.

[64] It sounds to me like you've done what I do with flights to New York.

[65] Like to me, a flight to New York is a vacation.

[66] Like five hours where no one can call me or ask me to get them anything.

[67] Yeah, that's heaven.

[68] So you've kind of transposed that onto just the L .A. commute.

[69] Yeah.

[70] Good for you.

[71] And I love this neighborhood and I don't get here very often.

[72] I saw you in traffic about nine months ago and I found myself kind of waving embarrassingly.

[73] Really?

[74] I swear to God this happened.

[75] And you were up high.

[76] You were a passenger in someone's vehicle and you were very elevated in the air.

[77] I could see you quite clearly.

[78] And I did some spastic waving and stuff.

[79] And of course, you didn't see me. And then I had that like two minutes.

[80] It's a mild embarrassment about the whole thing.

[81] I would have been very happy to see you.

[82] To wave back.

[83] Isn't it scary that people see us while we're in the car?

[84] I always forget that.

[85] And I'm always doing who knows what.

[86] Picking your nose.

[87] Yeah.

[88] I do a lot of that.

[89] There is something that happens in the car that it elevates my, I won't speak for you, but my own self -esteem, where I do, I sing and I dance incredibly loud.

[90] And I convince I sound fantastic.

[91] And I can get into a zone where I'm the.

[92] person I really fantasized about being.

[93] What does Kristen Bell think of your singing?

[94] Well, she describes me as tone deaf.

[95] Yeah.

[96] So say no more.

[97] I mean, that's a very efficient summation of how she feels about my singing, but I sing a lot.

[98] Right.

[99] And what's ironic is she's a beautiful singer.

[100] Oh, we know.

[101] Yeah, we know.

[102] It's been proven.

[103] We love for singing.

[104] There's very little singing around the house, and then yet I am always singing.

[105] You're just letting it happen.

[106] A. B .S. Always be singing.

[107] Did you, wait, are you a good singer?

[108] I would imagine you can sing.

[109] I think I'm an okay singer.

[110] An okay singer.

[111] Yeah.

[112] And now when you were married to Chris, did you find that like you felt left out of the party?

[113] Like that.

[114] The singing party?

[115] Yeah.

[116] No, because I'm a really, really good harmonizer.

[117] Oh.

[118] So I never want to be the person singing by myself.

[119] I want to be in the back harmonizing.

[120] And so that was a really fun part of being married to him was getting to harmonize with him and, you know, suggest little harmonies for songs and stuff, not verbally, but to sort of, you know, sing along.

[121] And then he'd be like, oh, great, I'm going to steal that.

[122] Every now and then that we have these unique opportunities to kind of join other people's lives that would have taken a whole life of dedication to get to.

[123] One of them for me is like I did a couple of USO tours in Afghanistan.

[124] And while I'm like, I was on the helicopter as they're shooting at something.

[125] And I'm like, oh, I kind of teleported into this experience that you normally would have to dedicate your whole life to have experienced.

[126] Right.

[127] And it's so unique.

[128] And I'd imagine being like on the inside of Coldplay is one of those where it's like, oh, I get to be on the inside of Coldplay, but I didn't.

[129] Yeah.

[130] It's, it's, I mean, I'm still with him a lot.

[131] We raise kids together, obviously, and we're very good friends.

[132] He really is like family to me. Yeah.

[133] And I always love being around his music and when he's creating music.

[134] And over all those years, we lived in the same house.

[135] You definitely get to be privy to some pretty inspired moments.

[136] I remember this one time, like we put the kids to bed and I had made dinner and it was like a regular night.

[137] We just ate dinner and he just got this weird look in his eye.

[138] And then he's like, I got to go to the piano.

[139] And literally, I'm not kidding, like, maybe four minutes later, the song Paradise was done.

[140] Oh, my God.

[141] I'm out.

[142] Like, start to finish.

[143] Oh, my God.

[144] That's not toned out.

[145] I had a feeling we'd hear it.

[146] Oh, that one fucking got me. That one got me big time.

[147] It's a great one.

[148] They have had several that really got me in a chokehold.

[149] Yellow for me. Yeah, yellow's a good one.

[150] Yellow is a good one.

[151] Isn't it awesome how a couple can own a song?

[152] They can just decide it's theirs, which in probably 16 million people around the world have made it theirs.

[153] But it's so nice.

[154] Like at a cold play concert or at any concert, for that matter, you can spot what those songs are.

[155] And people go from looking towards the stage, they pivot towards each other.

[156] Oh, yeah.

[157] I love that moment.

[158] It's really beautiful.

[159] So sweet.

[160] Are you like a romantic at heart as a kid?

[161] Very.

[162] Yeah.

[163] Meet me too.

[164] Very.

[165] In high school, what were some of those?

[166] albums.

[167] God, you know, it's funny because I was very into, like, British kind of alternative 80s music, like New Order.

[168] New Order.

[169] And, you know, Psychedelic Furs are like, I still, Ghost and You is one of my favorite songs.

[170] I lost my virginity intentionally to love my way by Psychedelic Ferd.

[171] Oh my God.

[172] That is the best story.

[173] In the basement of my house.

[174] It's so John Hughesian.

[175] It was.

[176] The unfortunate part of it was, I mapped it out pretty nicely.

[177] It was a mixtape, a 90 -minute tape.

[178] And we luckily got right to the action, right as Love My Way started, which was my all -time favorite song.

[179] And Gwyneth, I did not make it to the chorus.

[180] I'm sure she didn't expect it to.

[181] Well, I don't think either.

[182] I didn't make it to the chorus.

[183] And then I was just very confused about, like, do I guess I just continue on with this motion?

[184] And, like, maybe she'll tell me that that's enough.

[185] And then just so going from, like, maybe the nice.

[186] this moment to date to my life to then just real confusion and like hoping that I would somehow dematerialize and just end up somewhere I felt normal and in it's all part of the process it is isn't it that's the human experience yeah right there it's all of us multiple times a day like we could be 15 and losing our virginity or yeah you know whatever I just found out I was 15 first let me start by saying you 15 no I was I was I was terribly young I am It feels irresponsible.

[187] How young were you?

[188] I was in seventh grade and she was in ninth grade.

[189] So I was 12 or 13.

[190] Is that anatomically possible?

[191] It is.

[192] I was also 5 .11.

[193] You were in seventh grade?

[194] Oh, my son is in seven.

[195] You're giving me a...

[196] It's not common.

[197] I wouldn't say it.

[198] Statistically, no. Who has sex in seventh grade?

[199] Yeah, that's early.

[200] I was ready to do it.

[201] I can't believe you could get a boner in seven years.

[202] Oh, I was...

[203] He's been getting boners since it was four.

[204] No. But I was two years into having boners that I knew what they were intended for.

[205] I think for me, it started in sixth grade where I was like, oh, this is too close to my life right now.

[206] It's funny because I tell myself, I have a narrative I'm spinning about how I'm going to be as a father of two daughters.

[207] Yeah.

[208] And with some awareness that it is that.

[209] It's a theory.

[210] And then in practice, it might evolve.

[211] But currently I'm of the opinion.

[212] I'm super pro sex.

[213] I am anti -having sex to get approval.

[214] I'm anti -having sex to get someone to like you or to gain status.

[215] in a social circle, but if my daughters are horny and they have decided they want to have sex, I'm very pro -sex.

[216] Yes, I am too.

[217] I should just say, you're a really thoughtful father.

[218] Like, we've had a couple of conversations around it, and I'm always so impressed with how intentional you are in your parenting.

[219] That makes me really happy.

[220] It's true.

[221] Because I see the single biggest stream leading to the self -esteem pond is the parenting one.

[222] I mean, it's the one that gives me the most joy.

[223] pride frustration.

[224] Especially the daddy one for a girl.

[225] Yes.

[226] Oh my God.

[227] I don't even know where to start with you.

[228] I'm already panicking that we don't have enough time because I just want to quickly say to you so much time that I love when you're on Howard Stern.

[229] I think you're an amazing stern guest.

[230] I think you've done it twice.

[231] I have.

[232] That's so nice.

[233] The way you described your father on the show as I'm driving to the sand dunes with dune buggies in a trailer behind me, I'm fucking crying.

[234] the way you talk about your dad my life goal is to have my girls talk about me the way you talk about your dad someday I think your comment was everyone has a father but very few people get a daddy oh my fucking God I hate it Chris Rock that's what Chris Rock emailed me when my father died he just nailed it oh that's so special I know I have that towards my mom I just cannot get enough of that lady.

[235] And I will feel directionless, I think, when she dies for a while.

[236] I'm pretty certain.

[237] I can tell you that's probably right.

[238] I can tell you that in your future.

[239] Yeah.

[240] I mean, I felt, you know, for me personally, when my dad died, I mean, I was 30, which is relatively very young, hopefully in the span of my life.

[241] And I still have a really hard time with it.

[242] And it's so interesting because, again, he was such an intentional father, and he was so observant and so deeply supportive and set us up to win all the time.

[243] And now I have a 14 -year -old daughter and a 12 -year -old son, and I'm like, fuck, I need to call my dad.

[244] Like, I need to talk to my dad.

[245] And I don't have that person.

[246] You know, I have incredibly brilliant people in my life.

[247] but I don't have their grandfather, who was also the greatest father in the world.

[248] You know, it's like, I need to talk to him.

[249] Yeah.

[250] And how old was he when he died?

[251] 58.

[252] Ayah, yai.

[253] It's too young.

[254] My dad was 62, and these are not good ages.

[255] It's way too young.

[256] Did he have a heart issue or something?

[257] No, he had had throat cancer, and then we were on a trip to Italy for my 30th birthday, and he just, he wasn't feeling well, and then he got double pneumonia.

[258] And like, oh my goodness.

[259] He just sort of died on me. Oh, my gosh.

[260] Yeah.

[261] On your birthday?

[262] Just after, yeah.

[263] Oh, it was.

[264] So are you in general now pretty pumped about your birthday as it rolls around?

[265] Well, it's funny.

[266] You say that, you know, because I, for years, I would go into kind of the deepest depression of all time around my birthday.

[267] And then I thought, like, I've got to reframe this somehow.

[268] Like, my father would not want this for me. Yes.

[269] It would break his heart.

[270] to know he was making you sad.

[271] Right.

[272] And so my birthday is September 27th.

[273] And so this past September, I got married on the 29th of September.

[274] Oh, what a great way to reclaim it.

[275] Yeah.

[276] His ashes are buried under this beautiful tree at my house.

[277] And we got married there.

[278] Yeah.

[279] Right near my dad.

[280] Kind of on my dad.

[281] That sounds weird.

[282] That's really sweet.

[283] But in your stern interviews, first of all, You're incredibly honest, which I find always the most attractive thing about people, you're incredibly down to earth.

[284] You're incredibly down to earth on that show and it's really, really refreshing.

[285] I have found myself over the years, not even because you and I are friends, but because I recognize I feel like where it's coming from, I've always felt very defensive of you because you seem to trigger people.

[286] Yeah.

[287] You trigger people and it drives me bonkers.

[288] It really drives me bonkers because I think because in sobriety, our main focus is really kind of isolating.

[289] What are our fears?

[290] Because our fears are basically driving this ship.

[291] Until you understand what you're afraid of, you're not going to understand what course you're on, right?

[292] So when I see someone that's mad at you, to me it seems so obvious.

[293] Oh, there's something about her that when they look at her, they feel less than, which is their issue and a sad issue, a terribly sad issue for that person.

[294] But there have been a couple things over the years where I'm like, you guys are so mad she said this, like, conscious uncoupling.

[295] That became a firestorm, right?

[296] Yeah.

[297] And I remember thinking, why is everyone's, what is going on?

[298] Mind you, no one whose opinion I value was saying that, but I was just picking it up through the ether.

[299] Yeah.

[300] But that's not even, you didn't make up conscious uncoupling.

[301] No, it had been coined, I think, in the 70s, and it's such a beautiful concept, right?

[302] It's like, you know, you're staring down the barrel of a divorce, your worst outcome possible, especially, you know, I, my parents were married till my dad died.

[303] I'm all my best friends I've been friends with from elementary school, middle school, and all their parents were married.

[304] They're all married, like college or high school person.

[305] They're all still married.

[306] You know, I just didn't come from a world where there was a lot of divorce.

[307] And you couldn't have asked people you, you trust.

[308] their advice or guidance through it, right?

[309] And I just thought, as I looked around and sort of knew that we were, this was happening, and I thought, you know, I'm going to try to collect a little data around how children have been impacted by divorce.

[310] And again, sorry to overuse the word, but be intentional about avoiding those common pitfalls.

[311] Like, what are the common themes here that we see?

[312] And the most common wound that I heard from children of divorce was, you know, my parents couldn't be in the same room.

[313] and couldn't be friends, and it took three years.

[314] It took 18 years.

[315] It took, you know, God forbid the death of a close family member for them to sit at the same table.

[316] And I just thought, like, I wonder if there's a way to circumvent that and just go to the, directly to the point where we're friends and we remember what we loved about each other and constantly acknowledge that we created these two incredible human beings together.

[317] We commingled our DNA.

[318] We're family.

[319] That's it.

[320] So we can pretend we're not and hate each other and, you know, drop a kid at the end of the driveway and not come in or like, let's try to reinvent this for ourselves.

[321] And so I think at the time, honestly, I was in a lot of pain.

[322] It was so difficult.

[323] It felt like such a failure to me. Yeah.

[324] And it was so hard and I was so worried about my kids.

[325] So then there was this whole other layer of like the world turning on us about saying essentially we're just want to be nice to each other and try to stay a family.

[326] We're going to try to do this without a ton of wreckage.

[327] No wreckage.

[328] And it was brutal because I already felt like I had no skin on, you know.

[329] Yeah.

[330] But as as happens to me in my life and like by pattern recognition, I can see that I think the whole point of being here is to try to optimize yourself as much as possible.

[331] Like be as accountable for your shit.

[332] And I like, like, as possible like stretch yourself grow yeah do the uncomfortable thing like in the name of something bigger and more beneficial for your family or your community and sometimes i've said things and it's been too early in the culture or whatever you're a little ahead of the curve yeah and that's okay like you know of course sometimes i've gotten my feelings hurt but then i i always think you know I really feel like I do things from a place of being in integrity.

[333] Not that I don't make mistakes, but I try to align my words and my actions as closely as possible.

[334] And so at the end of the day, yeah, something can hurt, it can hurt your feelings if, you know, people are like, you're an idiot.

[335] Why are you saying that?

[336] Yeah.

[337] But I think at the end of the day, when you really believe in what you're doing, it doesn't resonate in a way that, like, breaks you apart, you know, because you believe in what you're doing.

[338] And, you know, the other thing I didn't think about at the time was, I think, in retrospect, and I've talked about this before in hindsight, but I think the problem with saying, hey, there's, you know, we don't know if it's possible.

[339] We're going to try to do this in a nice way where we're not a couple, but we're a family.

[340] that I think triggered a lot of people who were the sons and daughters of very acrimonious divorces or people in the middle of acrimonious divorces.

[341] Absolutely.

[342] And I didn't, you know, I didn't think about that at the time.

[343] Yeah, yeah, you're right.

[344] Someone's like struggling very hard.

[345] It's very challenging for them to deal with their ex.

[346] And then they hear, oh, you're doing it wrong.

[347] That's what they're hearing.

[348] That's not what I said or meant.

[349] Yeah.

[350] And I don't judge anything.

[351] Oh, you're going to do it perfect.

[352] Talk to me in a year.

[353] You came out the exact place you should end up, which is if you know your intentions and someone says something contradictory to that, you should be able to recognize it might be that person's thing.

[354] And that can be very liberating.

[355] We talk about it on here a lot, which is you can give me the same compliment, right?

[356] If I'm walking down the street and you stop me and you say, I loved you in something, acting wise, if my self -esteem is low, I go.

[357] Oh, that person recognized me and what else were they going to say?

[358] They had to be polite.

[359] Like, what were they going to say?

[360] You sucked in that thing.

[361] So that's like the worst case scenario.

[362] And then if my self -esteem is incredibly high and they stopped me and say that, I think, well, that was nice that they took the time to say that.

[363] But it doesn't fill me up because I recognize that's not something that is a real esteemable act.

[364] There's really no zone where the comment is even objectively anything.

[365] It's just literally how I'm taking it based on.

[366] how I, how good I feel about myself that day.

[367] Right.

[368] And I think it's also like a particular byproduct of being an actor as a, first of all, we all have pretty lousy self -esteem, you know, that's why we chose it in the first place.

[369] But I think also, you know, it's been interesting then going and doing a different kind of career where, you know, if I'm made, say, like, I have a cookbook that, you know, we try to make like healthy, easy food at Goop.

[370] It's like one of the things we do, and to have somebody come up and say, hey, you know, thank you for this recipe.

[371] You know, I could never get my kid to eat anything healthy and he only had pasta and grilled cheese and now he's eating this.

[372] Like, yeah, that feels different.

[373] Yeah.

[374] To me, that's the difference between this podcast and acting.

[375] It's like, I believe them when they say it, like made an impact on their life, which is an incredibly, yeah, wonderful feeling.

[376] And I think conversely, you know, to be a public person and to get criticism leveled at you for whatever reason, I found that, and I had a great therapist that taught me this, that, you know, it only really stings if it's a judgment that you're already holding against yourself.

[377] Thousand percent.

[378] Yeah, that kind of becomes a good roadmap of like what you should maybe pay attention to you, right?

[379] Is this stuff that truly bothers you.

[380] Right.

[381] And I would imagine maybe with the conscious uncoupling thing, you must have felt pretty good about that decision.

[382] And maybe that one, did that roll off your back a little?

[383] I mean, it's hard to say because it was so layered that whole time with so much.

[384] Right.

[385] You were already probably feeling at your worst in many ways.

[386] But I will say, you know, now it's a few years later.

[387] And I'm really proud that we did that and that we stuck to it.

[388] I've seen you guys together.

[389] And to me, unless you guys are, unless he's an incredible actor as well.

[390] it seems to be going pretty peaceful.

[391] Yeah, we really, we really have stayed close, and I think it doesn't mean that we don't have our difficult things with each other, but like the way you would with anyone in your family.

[392] Were there steps that you took?

[393] Was there something specific, or you guys just made a decision?

[394] I think the most important thing to do is let go of spite.

[395] Mm -hmm.

[396] Because it's an emotion, it's a feeling that really can just co -operable.

[397] walked the the human soul really quickly.

[398] So you just have to practice like, I don't know, I was very present of like not, you know, of course, not sublimating feelings.

[399] You have to let feelings come up and go through.

[400] But the feeling, I think spite is a very dangerous emotion.

[401] And I was very conscious not to act from that place.

[402] And it took, you know, restraint.

[403] Like, we're all human.

[404] and these things happen and things come up and you're always going to probably have a first thought right like a knee jerk instinctual first thought so how do you build a cushion between that feeling that comes up like you're like you're going to vomit and action it's like i always tried to think of like i need to build a pause here yeah i need to build a cushion and i would sort of like picture building some kind of cushiony vessel where i was like i'm just going to hold on to this for a second and not act from this place or say anything from this place.

[405] By the way, this is this straight A .A. It's like we pause.

[406] Yeah, we pause when we become agitated.

[407] So it's like, as a modus operandi, you are obligated at all times to give yourself a little time before you ever take action.

[408] It's just kind of like in any situation when agitated.

[409] So like any time that you're bruscled.

[410] Yeah, it's time to pause and maybe even and call someone and run your idea by them.

[411] Just check in with someone objective on the outside.

[412] And also, to your point about spite, when people have contempt for each other, it's over.

[413] It's over.

[414] It's very hard, yeah, to come back from that.

[415] You see it all the time and currently married couples.

[416] Yeah.

[417] And so my kind of mantra I have to practice, because there's many times I can't stand Kristen, you know, in any given week.

[418] But I tried to watch the words I'm using.

[419] But it's not a permanent condition.

[420] Yes, I was going to say, And now I find that I am applying it to my kids all the time.

[421] The difference in that language is it pertains to your child, I think, is that, like, your wife can be like, fuck you.

[422] Like, don't call me a bitch.

[423] But a child, there's a shame infusion that happens when you say you are messy, right?

[424] Uh -huh.

[425] As opposed to like, they're flawed, basically.

[426] Right.

[427] They hear, I'm flawed.

[428] I'm broken.

[429] And it's the shame.

[430] It's the shame that comes in.

[431] And that's something that.

[432] that I try to be aware of as well in my kids.

[433] Language is so important.

[434] It really is and we don't put a ton of thought behind it as we're using it.

[435] What is your philosophy around raising girls with good self -esteem and how do you action that?

[436] So I think you and I probably both agree that I think modeling is way more effective than talking.

[437] Yeah.

[438] So like it's as much of a journey for me as it is for them.

[439] It's like walking the walk in front of them is hard.

[440] every single kid sees their parents fight almost no kids see their parents make up because you fight publicly and you make up in the bedroom right so that's something oh yeah um it's awkward as fuck but we do it like we make up in front of them i've never heard of that before that's brilliant again it's corny and goofy and again this will be triggering someone will be mad at me at home going like well if i was rich i could do that too it seems that like no matter what I say.

[441] It's like if I exercise like, yeah, well, if I was rich, I would exercise too.

[442] Everything, but by the way, I can relate.

[443] I grew up fucking poor and I hated rich people and anything that good happened to a rich person.

[444] I was like, yeah, if I was rich, I'd have a fucking curly hair too.

[445] It didn't really matter.

[446] It's just a cure -all.

[447] Spoiler alert, it's not a cure -all.

[448] I wanted it to be, but it was not.

[449] But, okay, so I also believe that, like, I can only offer them what I do.

[450] So for me, my self -esteem, Builders, our physical exercise is number one for me. Yeah.

[451] Even if they're going to watch TV on Saturday, they get to watch cartoons on Saturday and Sunday, I bring them down to the gym and they watch, no, if I was rich and I had a gym, yeah.

[452] I bring them down to the basement of our house where I have workout equipment and I'll put their cartoons on there and then they have, you know, they're forced to watch me work out for an hour, which I guess is weirdly perverse too.

[453] I can also see like a great 80s movies.

[454] while you work out?

[455] So they're just in the gym with me spending that time while I work out.

[456] And then...

[457] And sometimes they do like stretches.

[458] They like want to be a part of it.

[459] Right, right.

[460] They do.

[461] How old are they?

[462] Five and four.

[463] Okay.

[464] So yeah, they have little pink weights and then they'll get in the mix for a minute.

[465] Oh, so huge.

[466] They get distracted.

[467] And I do think, and I know this sounds like a little nuts, but I think that we all, certainly for me, and so I'll extrapolate it out, I process emotion one I move.

[468] Like if I'm sad or I'm confused about something or I'm angry and I just take a walk, yeah.

[469] I feel much, much better afterwards.

[470] Just I don't know if it's the fresh air.

[471] I don't know if it's the movement.

[472] I don't know if it's a combination of it, whatever, the peace and quiet, but you and Monica have that in common.

[473] That's her.

[474] Yeah, that's my remedy.

[475] Secret power.

[476] I like, I walk and I, and I dance too.

[477] I do, I do.

[478] Well, yeah, if I was as rich as you, I could dance.

[479] Exactly.

[480] I want it.

[481] Yeah, in fact, when I'm dudes I sponsor, if they call me up and they're ranting about something, I'll go, listen, dude, I'm happy to hear this after you exercise for an hour.

[482] Exercise for an hour and call me back and just, let's see if it's the same rant.

[483] Well, because A, it won't be, right?

[484] Because you metabolize stuff through moving your body.

[485] Mm -hmm.

[486] And also, it's so generous of you to be a sponsor.

[487] And I would imagine that doesn't mean the only job of that is to just, like, hold the trash can while.

[488] someone vomits their anger and, right?

[489] In fact, it's, yeah, not that, yeah.

[490] Yeah, that's what they want.

[491] Right.

[492] That's what I want.

[493] So what we all want.

[494] And so do you pass the responsibility baton back to the person?

[495] Is that your job?

[496] My personal thing is when you've done X, Y, and Z and you still have a problem, then we know you still have a problem.

[497] Then let's, then let's throw the tools at it.

[498] Let's do a four step about it.

[499] Let's do this.

[500] But this sounds like it's just general human angst.

[501] Stay tuned for more armchair.

[502] expert, if you dare.

[503] We've all been there.

[504] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[505] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[506] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[507] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[508] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[509] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[510] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[511] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[512] What's up, guys?

[513] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is It's back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[514] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[515] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[516] And I don't mean just friends.

[517] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[518] The list goes on.

[519] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[520] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[521] How long have you been a sponsor?

[522] I've been sober 14 years and maybe starting a year in or something.

[523] I felt confident enough to, like, guide some people, you know?

[524] How did you decide to get sober?

[525] I, well, I made many, many decisions to get sober, and I tried many, many times and failed many, many times.

[526] And, I mean, in a very most basic nutshell.

[527] By the way, it was not, not too long before I very first met you.

[528] Because I very first met you, I'll never forget it.

[529] Oh.

[530] In the bedroom.

[531] I turned to the room.

[532] Right.

[533] And I'm coming out of a blackout.

[534] No. I met you in John's living room right as you were about to do Iron Man. Oh, my God.

[535] Weird.

[536] And I knew John because I got sober to do Zathurra, which was the movie right before Iron Man. I got to say, I'm just going to say it really quick.

[537] You know, over 15 years of acting consistently, I've met most of us, or quite a few of us.

[538] And in general, which is a very healthy thing, it's not that exciting.

[539] You know, even the people that I was kind of were my heroes, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's very much a human.

[540] You still got a little food on his face from dinner.

[541] He didn't get that off.

[542] But I will say you're one of the handful of people that when I turned the corner and saw you, I was like, oh, God damn.

[543] Yeah, that person has the X factor.

[544] Like that's an overwhelming presence.

[545] Wow.

[546] I agree.

[547] Yeah, right?

[548] Yeah, I thought the same thing.

[549] I found myself a bit intimidated by you.

[550] I still find myself a little bit intimidated by you.

[551] Which goes back to the thing that people are triggered by.

[552] Yeah, probably.

[553] Yeah.

[554] Yeah, you have some kind of X factor, which is just really pleasant.

[555] And I can see being jealous of it.

[556] Luckily, I'm a guy.

[557] Not the other.

[558] So I'm not like, fuck her.

[559] Why does her skin look like that?

[560] Well, no one should have that reaction that people do because it's easy to do that.

[561] It is.

[562] Okay, I got distracted by your beauty.

[563] Okay.

[564] So for me, exercise is number one.

[565] Number two is being of service to people.

[566] who will not benefit me, right?

[567] So I'm not going to get anything out of it.

[568] And generally, a good indicator of it's the right service to do is I don't want to do it.

[569] I don't want to do.

[570] There's nothing worse than brushing a three -year -old's teeth.

[571] It's almost impossible.

[572] I'd rather fucking brush your rocket on his teeth.

[573] Yeah.

[574] They hate it.

[575] And they act like they're doing you a favor.

[576] And I'm always like, Delta, you think I like this?

[577] I don't like this either.

[578] We're both in a shitty situation.

[579] Let's make the best of this.

[580] I know.

[581] And then you look back and it, I mean, it's so far.

[582] finite.

[583] Now I wish I could brush You'd kill to brush your 12 year old's teeth probably.

[584] What I don't miss is the ass wiping.

[585] Oh, now that I'm fine with.

[586] I'm just like, I'm fine with it.

[587] I'm just glad that he is autonomous in that capacity.

[588] You can handle it.

[589] Yeah.

[590] You know, like I didn't mind it at the time, but I'm just glad that that's, we've moved on.

[591] Yeah, I don't know what it's, I think we got to learn it on here because we talk about it so much because I I've pooped my pants many times throughout my life and these stories, Enda.

[592] Why?

[593] That's the appropriate reaction.

[594] That was a real, like, yeah, that was a great reaction.

[595] We don't need another take.

[596] That was, you said everything.

[597] Like from being sick or being drunk or?

[598] You name it, Gwyneth.

[599] I have just been bold and arrogant and thought, hmm, it feels like I might have diarrhea, but I'm just going to do a tip of a little fart and just check and see if it is.

[600] And then going, oh boy, yep, that was, you should have listened to your body.

[601] There's been that, there's been, you know, a heavy drug abuse, which is kind of like.

[602] Was drugs your thing or alcohol?

[603] Yeah, yeah.

[604] Well, cocaine and Jack and diet.

[605] Those were my two favorite things.

[606] Does cocaine make you poop?

[607] You're saying, quite often when you first do those first few lines, it's quite often cut with baby laxative.

[608] You're kidding.

[609] I'm not kidding.

[610] That seems unethical.

[611] So I would just say that in general, there's something.

[612] kind of this, what I would say is a fallacy of there being a rock bottom.

[613] There were many multiple rock bottoms for me. But the one, the one last one was a week before I started that movie's a thorough.

[614] I'm like, I need a vacation.

[615] I went to Hawaii with a friend from Detroit.

[616] I bought Crystal Math.

[617] I smoked it the whole time.

[618] I had all these dangerous things happened to me. I mean, just madness.

[619] Absolutely madness.

[620] I was so sick by the time I had to fly back from Hawaii to L .A. and I had a layover in San Francisco.

[621] And I was so physically sick that I I knew I wasn't going to be able to make that flight from San Francisco to LA unless I got some jack and diets in me. So I'm sitting in the corner of this bar and I'm ordering like jack and diet after jack and diet.

[622] I just have this moment where I go, oh my God, every single thing you set out to do that you ever dreamt of doing is happening right now.

[623] Every goal I had ever said in my life was happening at that exact moment and I was fucking hiding from the world in the corner of this bar.

[624] And I was as sad and as miserable and as demoralizes as I've ever been in my life with everything I'd ever wanted.

[625] And I thought something's really broken.

[626] And you were how old?

[627] 29.

[628] Right.

[629] So what a gift to be 29 and be able to realize like there is no external factor.

[630] Nobody gets that gift.

[631] No. And even as I tell it to people, I understand that they won't believe it.

[632] And I totally get it.

[633] But I'll tell friends, I'm like, I know it feels like money is the thing.

[634] And I know you, you're not going to believe me, but it's just, it certainly makes some things convenient, but it just doesn't fill the hole inside that's not healing.

[635] No, it's not healing.

[636] It's not healing.

[637] Isn't that the same criteria that drugs?

[638] I mean, it sort of seems like, that's such a manufactured high of the ego.

[639] It's like, I got the promotion.

[640] Here's a quantifiable, here's quantifiable proof that I'm worth X. Uh -huh.

[641] Like, I imagine, I've never really done drugs, but I imagine, like, you.

[642] do drugs and you're like, oh, I'm there, like for a minute and then you're, like, anytime you attach to that ephemeral feeling of high, whether it's a drug or like an ego boost, it's not real.

[643] How much do you think that there is a relationship between if you feel unhealed and the panacea of drug addiction?

[644] Where does it stem from, in your opinion?

[645] Well, we're the hardest people to study.

[646] We're the hardest things to predict on the planet.

[647] And there is no consensus of people.

[648] We're very complex.

[649] We're so complex.

[650] Do you have siblings?

[651] I do.

[652] I have an older brother and a younger sister.

[653] Do any of them have?

[654] My brother's sober.

[655] Okay.

[656] Yeah, so genetically for sure.

[657] Right.

[658] And then I have all kinds of trauma from childhood.

[659] Right.

[660] And but then even if you look at the difference between he and I, like the variation is so different in the way the addiction manifested itself.

[661] And we're from leaving the same.

[662] household with the same genetic package, and yet they kind of...

[663] Did you see this documentary Three Identical Stranger?

[664] Yes.

[665] So fascinating to this point.

[666] Yes.

[667] And did you have the experience I did where the first half of it I was so depressed, and by the end I was so relieved in that the first half, it's very much...

[668] Oh, you did.

[669] Oh, you did.

[670] Oh, walk me through it.

[671] Well, because I was watching it through the lens of like, my God, this is so...

[672] I mean, probably not the whole first half because it gets very dark.

[673] I would say quarter, third of the way in.

[674] Should we tell people what it is?

[675] Oh, yeah.

[676] So in a nutshell, one guy goes to college.

[677] He's enlistening college.

[678] And when he arrives there, all these people are saying hi to him.

[679] Hey, Dave, how's it going?

[680] He's like, no, I'm not Dave.

[681] One guy is so adamant that it is Dave that he then calls real Dave.

[682] And then he takes this guy to meet Dave and they are identical twins.

[683] This makes it into the paper.

[684] A third person's reading the paper and goes, Jesus, I'm identical to those two.

[685] they find out that there are three separated identical triplets separated at birth for the experiment well as we find out a very nefarious yeah that's where it gets really yeah yeah but it really is a study in is mental health is it nurture or is it nature yeah so for me the first half of the film is detailing all the similarities they had even though they were separated at birth and i am now as a parent going oh man what we do means nothing like we have no we have no role in it because look they're all the same even though they grew up in all these these different houses so for the first half of the movie i'm super depressed and i'm like oh it's all it's all nature i have nothing to do with this and then come to find out no they're not very similar at all in fact they're dramatically different right and so by the end it kind of confirms that nurture has a huge role of course yeah that's why i went from sad to happy yeah but you got sad because of the nefarious yeah plot yeah i thought it was what somebody in there says this this is like a nazi experiment oh yeah yeah i thought that was resonant like it was pretty crazy yes is is your wife sober no but she she's the least addictive person i've ever met and it's so frustrating when we first met she smoked not a ton but she smoked in the evening or whatever and then like one day i pointed out to me i'm like you realize you haven't smoked in a month and a half like did you quit and she goes oh i haven't and i was like oh my god when i quit smoking it was like a whole minute to minute like oh my god i mean nothing's been harder in my whole life yeah you were a smoker right oh yes oh and it didn't you love it i smoked a pack a day probably until i was 25 years old yeah wake up and light a cigarette absolutely yeah you things are nicer i really was into it it was your thing right i loved it but you didn't do drugs No, I never really did drugs.

[686] I never.

[687] I mean, I've tried a couple things.

[688] I hope you've done mushrooms.

[689] I've never done mushrooms.

[690] I've never done acid.

[691] I've never done MDMA.

[692] I did MDMA once.

[693] Did you enjoy it?

[694] Um, I'm trying to get Monica to do it really bad.

[695] Yeah, he wants me to do all the drugs.

[696] I feel like it was very, it was like more of like a shamanic experience.

[697] Like it was very, I had a lot of trauma come up and I was like crying and.

[698] And, And I think it was productive, but it wasn't like I'm at a rave, you know, like with my shirt off.

[699] It wasn't.

[700] You weren't making out with anyone during it?

[701] No, totally not.

[702] You should do it one more time and make out.

[703] Okay.

[704] It's a few things feel better in life than making out an MDMA.

[705] Really?

[706] Oh, my God.

[707] Okay.

[708] Well, maybe I cleared something and I need to try.

[709] Yeah, yeah.

[710] We got through the trauma.

[711] Now let's just get into the pleasure.

[712] Just one time.

[713] Yeah.

[714] You can come to our ecstasy party.

[715] Are you going to have?

[716] We're going to have one.

[717] It's been in the, it's in the books.

[718] So what do you do during an ecstasy party?

[719] I just make sure everyone's enjoying themselves.

[720] And if I notice anyone's like freaking out a little bit mentally, I'll be there to go like, hey, I'm sober.

[721] Yeah.

[722] You can trust me right now.

[723] This is nothing.

[724] See, but that's why I don't do drugs because like that's always, that's always me. You're afraid of being out of control.

[725] Yeah, like one time when I was a teenager, I smoked too much pot and I thought I was hallucinating or maybe I was.

[726] was.

[727] I don't know.

[728] And it really freaked me out.

[729] Like, I'm just not a good drug person.

[730] And it's got to be because you must like control, yeah?

[731] You think?

[732] Yeah.

[733] Yeah.

[734] Now, let me ask you, do you think you have an idea of why you desire control?

[735] Do you think there's something from your child group?

[736] I think it's always the opposite of fear, isn't it?

[737] Or like our solution.

[738] It's like fear -based action, right?

[739] It's something that I'm aware of and I work on and I hate that about myself.

[740] Like, I hate that I have inextricably linked fear and control as like two sides of a coin.

[741] It's, it can be incapacitating.

[742] I mean, like, flying is a perfect example.

[743] If I'm on a takeoff and it's really bumpy, like I'm, I get really scared.

[744] You do.

[745] Yeah.

[746] Yeah.

[747] And do you, was there anything about childhood?

[748] Well, let me just ask.

[749] So your mother is an actress yeah and your father uh was was he is a director he was a he made tv shows that's that's you know he wrote directed and produced tv shows and like uh the white shadow oh yes no i'm not too young um which was a great show and a really groundbreaking show and then he made one called saint elsewhere about a hospital he made really good shows and he So he was a creator of St. Elsewhere?

[750] Yeah.

[751] Oh, wow.

[752] That's incredibly impressive.

[753] And he ran that show for years.

[754] I tell people here who don't have a great, you know, in -depth understanding of show business that the number one badasses and the whole thing are showrunners.

[755] Yeah.

[756] And nobody has a harder job.

[757] And I just married a showrunner.

[758] So it's, we've gone full circle.

[759] I could talk about him for an hour.

[760] By the way, he's such a babe.

[761] He's such a babe.

[762] I met him.

[763] we were somewhere and I was telling you the pattern I get into every time I attend something like that.

[764] I don't know if you remember this.

[765] I remember perfectly.

[766] Okay.

[767] And because I thought it was a really ripe conversation for you and I to have because you grew up around all this.

[768] Right.

[769] And that probably came with some benefits and some handicaps.

[770] Yeah?

[771] Yeah.

[772] Yeah.

[773] So having two parents in film and television, do you feel like you noticed that they were, they were measuring their worth at times in comparison to other people.

[774] And you became aware of that being something, you know, like a preoccupation.

[775] I don't, I think children are so narcissistic.

[776] It's like you don't, you just, you're absorbing, you're kind of like on your parents' Wi -Fi and you're feeling whatever, you know, but I don't think I was that observant about their, how they went through their lives as adults and, you know, you just, but I think when my mother would be, you know, rehearsing checkoff at the Williams Sound Theater Festival and I was a kid sitting there watching her, I just wanted to be that.

[777] I didn't even, this is like, I didn't even understand that she was, you know, I'm talking like I'm a year and a half or two years, three years old and on, just thinking whatever is happening to my mother right now, that level of freedom.

[778] empowerment expression like I want to be that yeah so and just to really drill into it is it that you just wanted to be mom or you were also recognizing that mom was in a position where all the attention was focused on her she was steering the ship there was a lot of power and all that can you separate which was which i was recognizing the difference between her at home and on stage oh and it's kind of in life and on and in her element like like doing her art. Yeah, it's rare for kids to see their parents do the thing that they excel at or special at, right?

[779] Yeah, and I was so lucky because I got to watch her work at it, like rehearse and, you know, I always ran lines with her and I felt very proud of her talent and her commitment.

[780] And were you the type of child that would try to like get involved in it?

[781] Like would you run out on stage?

[782] Yeah, totally.

[783] Yeah, I mean, this precarious situation with our kids, and I imagine you wrestle with it a lot, too.

[784] You're unique in that your kids are now second generation or third generation show business.

[785] So you certainly are probably in a better position than I am because you grew up that way and you probably know the pitfalls.

[786] Right.

[787] I think the benefit of growing up in it is that, you know, I think we're Americans, movies and entertainment is one of our biggest exports.

[788] It's a huge driver of our economy.

[789] And at the same time, it's also like this fantasy world that we dream about, like, could I ever be that?

[790] And it seems like a cure.

[791] And so I think a lot of people aspire to do it.

[792] And now we're living in a time where it's a career to be famous for no reason.

[793] And it's achievable.

[794] So the benefit for me is that that was not why I was doing it.

[795] I just wanted to be like my mom when she was playing Blanche Dubois.

[796] Right.

[797] You weren't craving per se like fame.

[798] No. You actually wanted to be a part of the process.

[799] Yeah.

[800] And I wanted to have the feeling that I saw her having when she was crushing some insane monologue and making everybody feel so much.

[801] But we've been in a couple of, and they're very rare, and I try to minimize them, but we've been in a couple situations where say like we Kristen shot on a cruise ship, we had to be.

[802] on the cruise ship while she filmed.

[803] What I was kind of observing is like, oh, wow, it's clicking to Lincoln that all these people on this ship are interested in mom.

[804] Yeah.

[805] And then I'm also recognizing that she rightly so is kind of possessive of that attention.

[806] Like, that's, that's her mom.

[807] That's not everyone else's mom, right?

[808] So I'm just kind of watching the complexity of this scenario.

[809] And I'm trying to evaluate, like, is this destructive?

[810] Is there a way for me to explain this to her?

[811] like just again trying to be intentional about what's going on because it is unique and then people may be connecting the dots that that's her daughter and now she's getting an amount of attention that's not right for a kid to get right it's all very complicated and I and of course I get very protective of the whole thing and for that reason ultimately just I don't love them to be on set but I don't like how the adults treat them that they've kind of got this elevated status because there are our kids and everyone's so excited they're there I'm like no no kids are pieces of shit when you go visit your parents at work.

[812] You're an annoying piece of shit and everyone ignores you.

[813] That's normal.

[814] So what did you learn from being a child in that situation?

[815] I mean, it was a very different time to act.

[816] Like there wasn't social media.

[817] There wasn't the internet.

[818] And fame was different then.

[819] And also, my parents weren't that famous.

[820] Like, they were amazingly talented working people, but not necessarily, you know, my mom wasn't a household name, you know.

[821] And, um, The people who loved acting and loved movies definitely knew who my mom was.

[822] And she's more famous now, funnily enough.

[823] But I would have those situations where, like, I remember once being in Howard Johnson's, like, eating the fried clams.

[824] That was my favorite thing.

[825] Hojo's.

[826] Hojo's.

[827] And, uh, again in one.

[828] See, she's not an entitled piece of shit.

[829] She eats fried clams.

[830] She ate at Hojo's.

[831] Come on, guys.

[832] Fried clams is my favorite food.

[833] Oh, wow.

[834] Um, your guilty plage.

[835] Fried clams and friend fries, yeah.

[836] I'm a fried food.

[837] That's my week.

[838] too.

[839] I could get rid of sweets.

[840] Me too.

[841] I don't have to fuck with that.

[842] No. Like, just give me anything fried.

[843] Give me that salt, girl.

[844] Give me that salt and that deep fry.

[845] Oh, deep fried scrimps.

[846] Do you like those?

[847] Deep fried what?

[848] Scrimps.

[849] Shrimp.

[850] Yes, I love it.

[851] Oh, aren't they beautiful?

[852] With cocktail sauce.

[853] Oh, how about a little mayonnaise on there?

[854] I'll do that.

[855] Mammies, tartar sauce, whatever.

[856] Yeah, pick your sauce.

[857] But I remember this woman coming up to her and being so starstruck and, And that's the moment that I connect.

[858] I was like, oh, like, there's something else happening here.

[859] And this woman is, like, projecting so much onto my mom.

[860] Like, I didn't have that language, but I could feel how powerfully she was impacting this person.

[861] Yeah.

[862] And did you like it?

[863] Yeah.

[864] Oh, okay, good.

[865] This generation, like, it's a little bit more precarious in that, as I said, like, fame is its own thing.

[866] Mm -hmm.

[867] Like you don't have to put anything into the world that is like impacting culture or art or music or, you know, to be famous.

[868] Sure.

[869] I mean, I guess you could argue your impacting culture, I guess.

[870] Well, can I give you the way I've come out on the other side of this?

[871] Please.

[872] So people were so furious that this guy, the situation from Jersey Shore was going to make a million dollars or whatever the number that came out.

[873] Do you remember Jersey Shore, big hit on MTV?

[874] I never thought, but you're aware of it.

[875] Snooki.

[876] Yes, yes, yes.

[877] So the situation was one of the characters, and it came out that he was going to make $8 million that year or something.

[878] And people were just up in arms like, what does he do?

[879] He just gets drunk and hangs out and works out.

[880] And that's why he's famous, blah, blah, blah.

[881] People were very angry about it.

[882] And just for one second, I thought, I'm delighted when people win the lottery.

[883] I'm like so happy for people in the rest of the country.

[884] If they buy that ticket and all of a sudden they're millionaires, I'm so happy for them.

[885] Right.

[886] That's all that happened.

[887] of this guy.

[888] He, like, bought a lottery ticket.

[889] Now he's a millionaire.

[890] I should be happy for this guy.

[891] I don't know why I'm so upset by it, but I found myself being upset by it.

[892] You were upset by it?

[893] Sure.

[894] Well, maybe not him per se, but like other people who have like, the Kardashians say, are very triggering for people.

[895] Yeah.

[896] But they're very mad that those people are making millions for doing, quote, nothing.

[897] Right.

[898] But they're not mad if someone wins the mega power ball and they win $400 million.

[899] They're super excited for those people.

[900] Yeah.

[901] So I just, try to file it all into they've won the lottery category i think that's smart and then then i'm not too troubled by it right but i think it's more the the pushback is about the impact of those people what they're putting out into the world that you can have all this and not earn it right makes other people want to have all of that and also not earn it that's the fear or that their lifestyle's vapid right and that that's and they're encouraging other people to go have vapid existence.

[902] Yeah.

[903] I mean, it's interesting.

[904] It's like, you know, there's some formula that somebody could write that's like opportunity times ambition or whatever, you know, and it's like in a way these influencers or whatever, however we categorize this, they are taking an opportunity and they are applying their ambition and their particular brand of intelligence and they're, they are creating something.

[905] Even the, and it's very American, if you think about it.

[906] Yeah.

[907] It's not an un -American concept.

[908] And even if you use the most obscene example of it, even that person, no one, like, knocked on their door, hey, do you want to be famous and have millions of dollars?

[909] No one actually was sitting on their couch and someone brought in a briefcase full of money and fame.

[910] So on some level, I may not understand it, but they must, they did something.

[911] To your point, there is.

[912] some ambition there or there's some.

[913] Of course.

[914] Yeah, I guess I'm, I'm judgmental of what the goal is right, which is like fame.

[915] Well, that's what I worry about.

[916] So I think it's great that people take whatever opportunity is in their hand and they amplify it and they create wealth.

[917] And I think that's really wonderful.

[918] I'm saying, contextually speaking as a parent, I don't want the message to be that fame in and of itself is a career.

[919] Yes.

[920] Yeah.

[921] And I think you could argue that it now is, but that's not my hope for them.

[922] Yeah.

[923] Like they could be famous as a byproduct of a lot of hard work.

[924] And I'm not saying, by the way, that these influencers don't work hard.

[925] It's just a different approach.

[926] Yeah.

[927] And maybe I'm just old.

[928] But I really would love recognition and life to come from, you know, what's that, that the powerful wheel goes on and you shall contribute a verse, like that your verse, that the verse you are contributing to the cosmic poem is something that is going to be meaningful or, you know, move a field forward in a certain way.

[929] And maybe, you know, maybe in retrospect, we'll look back at these influencers and think, wow, that's such a critical part.

[930] And we just, it's new.

[931] So we're all a little resistant to it.

[932] and, like, who knows how we'll look back at all this.

[933] Oh, 100%.

[934] We watched this documentary called American Meme on Netflix.

[935] Yes, I watched that.

[936] Oh, my God.

[937] And the whole time, of course, I'm like repulsed.

[938] I never heard of the slut whisperer before.

[939] Oh, my goodness, yeah.

[940] Wow.

[941] Well, you know what's funny is like...

[942] Although I'm sure you were one in your day, Dax.

[943] Well, I'll tell you this.

[944] I looked for endless validation from people I thought were high status for sure.

[945] I definitely thought if I could get someone fancy, beautiful, and high status to love me, that I would then look in the mirror and see Brad Pitt.

[946] And it just never worked.

[947] It never ended up happening, sadly.

[948] It'd be great.

[949] Sort of happened.

[950] Well.

[951] I mean, I did end up with someone high status.

[952] But I didn't know she was high status when I met her.

[953] I really didn't have any sense that, like, this person was going to validate me in some way.

[954] But prior to that, I had done that to a bunch of women, I definitely, from junior high on, like, oh, that girl's out of my league.

[955] If I could get her, then I would, you know, maybe I am better than I thought I was.

[956] And what was it about your wife specifically that you were like, this is my person?

[957] Well, first and foremost, I think it's very helpful if you have a partner that you have decided that they are ultimately good.

[958] And in no point when you're disagreeing with them or fighting with them, do you think their motivation is ever to destroy you, belittle you, make you feel worse, right?

[959] I think if you are certain about that with somebody, it makes the rest of it a lot easier.

[960] Because I spend narratives in my head very quickly.

[961] I can convince myself someone is out to destroy me very quickly.

[962] Wow.

[963] Where's that from?

[964] Well, I'm just very creative and I'm a writer.

[965] And I have this huge skill set I can deploy at any time.

[966] Oh, these theories I've come up with, I've voiced a few of them on here.

[967] They're preposterous.

[968] Once I'm away from them, they're preposterous.

[969] So at any rate, I meet Kristen, and I got to say 11 years ago, ideologically, we were very, very far apart on many, many issues.

[970] But I had at the core, I had this belief, well, this human being is a good, good human being.

[971] And if she's that, then we can kind of work through everything else.

[972] And I don't know.

[973] I just, I think that's one of the keys for me was just knowing that her intentions, her actions, I might object to.

[974] But I think if I always drill deep enough, I'll find that her intentions are pretty good.

[975] And you give her blanket benefit of the doubt.

[976] It sounds like because you know she's a good person, like she's coming from a good place.

[977] Yes.

[978] And when I'm when I'm weaving these insane hypotheses up in my head about what she was doing, I always run it through the filter of like, well, but she'd have to be evil to be doing that.

[979] And I know for certain she's not.

[980] evil.

[981] But we, more than any relationship I've ever had, it was as dicey as it could be the first three years.

[982] I mean, we were in therapy every week.

[983] I don't even know why we were.

[984] Before you were married?

[985] Oh, yeah.

[986] We started therapy three months into our relationship.

[987] That's unorthodox.

[988] And we would have never, ever made it if we didn't do that.

[989] It is unorthodox, which is ridiculous, because if you believe in the ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure, why wait till there's seven years of wreckage to unravel and hurt feelings and betrayal and all these things.

[990] Why not start when you have a shot at forgiveness?

[991] Well, it's so brilliant, too, because if you think about, you know, I had a therapist who said to me once that an intimate relationship is just a meditation and everything that's wrong with you.

[992] So whatever is getting kicked up for you by that person is like, oh, this is what's wrong with me?

[993] Like, you know, I'm triggered by this.

[994] Like, this is obviously clearly unresolved.

[995] I haven't healed this trauma.

[996] Like, I'm projecting this.

[997] So if you look at it that way, then it makes perfect sense to start, I don't know, unpacking everything with the person you're going to like take the opportunity of this intimate relationship, even if it's not the person you end up marrying and having kids with.

[998] Like, why not go for it and explore like, wow, why is this person so triggering for me?

[999] And by the way, if you start at the beginning, the solutions are incredibly easy, whereas They're very complex towards the back end of it, right?

[1000] For sure.

[1001] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1002] It just so happens that you, anyone who knows me knows I have two main obsessions.

[1003] Okay.

[1004] Unbridled obsessions.

[1005] One is Brad Pitt.

[1006] Oh.

[1007] I fucking love him so much, Gwyneth.

[1008] I mean, I love him in a way.

[1009] This is how much I love him.

[1010] Like, someone said to me, How far would you go with him?

[1011] And I said, hugging, yes.

[1012] Some kissing, for sure.

[1013] Shirts off.

[1014] Okay.

[1015] Let's just stop right here.

[1016] So I would go to like shirts off and hugging.

[1017] Like that's how deep it is.

[1018] Wow.

[1019] In fact, I get it.

[1020] That's like skin to skin.

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] I get it.

[1023] Yeah.

[1024] So just this crazy obsession about him since I was a young kid.

[1025] The other person I'm obsessed with is Jay Z. Oh, my gosh.

[1026] And these are two great obsessions, by the way.

[1027] Jay -Z, I can't even explain to you what I feel when I think about him in my head.

[1028] So Kristen wanted me to go to the Metball like five years in a row.

[1029] And I'm like, I don't want to go to the Metball.

[1030] I don't like it.

[1031] I feel less than when I'm there.

[1032] One year she goes, hey, do you want to go to the Metball?

[1033] I think you're going to say yes this year because we'll be sitting at Jay -Z's table.

[1034] 100 % there.

[1035] I go to New York and go to the Metball just so that I can win over.

[1036] over Jay -Z.

[1037] And as luck would have it, I am next to Jay -Z.

[1038] Wow.

[1039] I give Jay -Z my A -game 100%.

[1040] I try to win him over.

[1041] I promise you if mid -meal, I went to the bathroom and I bumped into him in the bathroom, he would not know I was sitting at his table.

[1042] I'm convinced of it.

[1043] This is how, this is how - This is one of your crazy head story is Jack Shepherd.

[1044] I needed him to like me so much and I know I shit the bed.

[1045] It was a very poor outing.

[1046] What you have revealed about yourself through this conversation as far and stories that you can sometimes convince yourself of that might not be very based in actual reality, I don't think that this is true.

[1047] What if I told you that Kristen would confirm that he had very little interest?

[1048] That I would believe you.

[1049] He's, he's, that's, I just find that hard to believe, though.

[1050] He's a very curious and soulful person.

[1051] You know what?

[1052] I'd never factor into it, as we don't do, is that maybe Jay -Z hates being there.

[1053] Maybe he's got something that he's, uh, maybe he had his own journey.

[1054] I'm not sure like any hetero husband likes being at the ball.

[1055] But, but, you know, what we don't do is we never, like, I'm trapped in my own narcissism.

[1056] I don't think like, well, maybe, maybe Jay had a bad experience on the way here.

[1057] Maybe he's something's on his mind and he wants to get home and deal with something.

[1058] any number of things that don't involve me could have been going on.

[1059] And that's absolutely true.

[1060] All this leads up to if I could have traded places with a single person on planet Earth, it'd be you.

[1061] Right.

[1062] Because you dated my boyfriend.

[1063] I was engaged, your boyfriend.

[1064] You guys were engaged.

[1065] This is like 90s.

[1066] 90s.

[1067] And what's so.

[1068] 90s Brad Pitt, too.

[1069] Oh, my God.

[1070] The height of his superpowers.

[1071] Although he's doing very well.

[1072] Of course.

[1073] He's great.

[1074] He's a really good person.

[1075] He's a wonderful guy.

[1076] But what's counterintuitive about him, and I'm not revealing anything, you said this on Stern, and I know a couple other of his ex -girlfriends from that period, and what all of you are consistent and saying, which is so cute about him, is he's like, he's really into commitment, right?

[1077] Very much so, yeah.

[1078] He wanted to get married, right?

[1079] Like, he was ready to go do it.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] And you were young.

[1082] I was too young.

[1083] I mean, I was 22 when I met him.

[1084] Oh, my goodness.

[1085] I know.

[1086] And you met him in Monica Nye's third favorite movie of all time, seven.

[1087] Well, is that what I met him?

[1088] Yeah, that's where I met him.

[1089] We love that movie so much, Gwyneth.

[1090] It's a good movie.

[1091] Oh, my God, is it good.

[1092] Do you love it?

[1093] I do love it.

[1094] I mean, it's quite disturbing, but it's a really good movie.

[1095] I like all of David Fincher's movies.

[1096] I do too.

[1097] And when you were, because I've asked you no acting questions, which you probably prefer.

[1098] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1099] I just want to know, I have a singular question about acting, which is, um, Um, what I know about David Fincher is he does like 90 takes or he can do upwards of that was not the case in seven.

[1100] Oh, it wasn't.

[1101] Not at all.

[1102] Oh, wow.

[1103] It was like two or three takes.

[1104] I think this is something.

[1105] I mean, maybe I'm just really fucking good.

[1106] I think that might be it.

[1107] Or maybe it was something he developed later, but it was totally in the normal realm of takes.

[1108] It was like not 90.

[1109] I would genuinely would throw myself off a building if there were 90 takes.

[1110] That would be really tough.

[1111] So basically we need to get Brad Pitt and Jay -Z.

[1112] So if it's like going to be, what's your next big birthday?

[1113] Big ones, probably.

[1114] How old are you?

[1115] God bless you, GP.

[1116] Are you 40?

[1117] No, I turned 44 two weeks ago.

[1118] Oh.

[1119] Yeah.

[1120] So maybe for your 50th birthday.

[1121] We'll get them to jump out of a cake.

[1122] Oh, my God.

[1123] And then you'd die, but it'd be okay.

[1124] I would explode.

[1125] It'd be the best way to go.

[1126] Yeah.

[1127] I'm just so excited that you made out with Brad and stuff.

[1128] I did more than that.

[1129] Oh, my God, you guys did.

[1130] You heard it here first.

[1131] All right, so let's talk about current Brad for one second.

[1132] Okay.

[1133] Because current Brad has a superpower, too.

[1134] I know.

[1135] He really does.

[1136] So I met him at this party that we briefly discussed a minute ago.

[1137] And it's very, it's more challenging than people would care to know to be.

[1138] be with someone who is very famous and very well known it takes a special kind of guy i think to have his ego right to be able to take the back seat to his more known famous wife or partner right and in i meet this brad guy i got sucked into brad's retractor beam and i was like oh this guy ain't sweating it at all he's got all kinds of charisma and charm and he's very hyper intelligent and i I think I talked to him for like 45 minutes.

[1139] Yeah, you guys were deep in it.

[1140] We got into it.

[1141] We got into the weeds.

[1142] I know.

[1143] He's an incredibly curious, completely non -judgmental person.

[1144] And it's such a good combo because you find yourself overhearing these conversations.

[1145] And he's like there's nothing small about any of the talk.

[1146] It's like, how on earth are you getting this far with somebody?

[1147] And it's just like the stuff that.

[1148] you want to know and that stays with you.

[1149] But that's my point.

[1150] Like I overheard part of the conversation and, you know, that's what I was saying earlier, that I had no idea at that point.

[1151] You were going, you had this incredible life and you were dealing with all kinds of stuff, but that you were approaching masculinity, fatherhood, monogamy, sobriety in a really amazing way.

[1152] It was very inspiring to hear you talk about all this stuff and it was because I could you know his questions are he asks really good questions yes incredibly good questions and you're right he you immediately sense in him that his ultimate goal is not a conclusion or judgment his ultimate goal is like knowing about you correct which brings me back did you momentarily major in anthropology no I wanted to oh you wanted to but I never got far enough I quit college to try to be an actress It worked out.

[1153] But you were going to UCSB?

[1154] I was.

[1155] Did you take an intro class with Shagnon?

[1156] Oh, wait.

[1157] This is ringing up.

[1158] Did you go to UCSB?

[1159] I didn't.

[1160] I went to UCLA and I majored in anthropology.

[1161] But the reason I majored in anthropology is probably at the time you were there, I was on a road trip visiting friends that went to school there.

[1162] And I sat in on Shagnon's intro to anthro.

[1163] I think I was in that.

[1164] Oh, my goodness.

[1165] We may have been in the same class.

[1166] fucking classroom.

[1167] But he's the one who worked with the Yanomamo.

[1168] He was down in Bratzil and doing the green hallucinogenic and stuff and hitting people on the heads with boards.

[1169] I mean, it was such a tantalizing, exotic kind of life.

[1170] That guy had lived that I was like, ooh, this is what I want to study.

[1171] I want to go to the jungle and do drugs and stuff and hit each other with boards and just get wild, you know?

[1172] Oh, my God.

[1173] I have a question real quick.

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] Do you value privacy a ton or are you kind of like?

[1176] open book or you feel like people are allowed in or are you I think that's an interesting I mean I think you know by virtue the fact that I'm a public person there are private aspects of my life that have been in the public for 20 you know since my 22 year 20 whatever 22 years old and I think that there are things that I keep very private I don't like to put my children out into the public, you know, once in a while.

[1177] If it's someone's birthday or something, like, I'll include them in Instagram posts because they love, you know, they want, you know, it's fun for them.

[1178] But we don't take them to premieres or anything like, like we try to keep that very, you know, reasonably private.

[1179] But I do feel like a lot of things that I think people would consider really private.

[1180] It's almost like my duty to share, you know, like the mistakes and the vulnerabilities.

[1181] And I think that's sort of part of being a public person.

[1182] It's like so you kind of walk the gauntlet and a lot of other people can learn from your mistakes and your successes, your key learnings.

[1183] life.

[1184] I certainly feel this way about Kristen and I, where people have seemed to embrace us as a couple.

[1185] And they have, some people have decided that that's kind of the North Star of what one should be.

[1186] And knowing that, I feel this deep obligation to go like, oh, by the way, it takes a shitload of work.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] It's not easy.

[1189] It's not, it's not, I didn't find the one.

[1190] I found someone I respected and we made it the one together.

[1191] You know, I, I think it's incumbent upon you in a weird way when people look up to you to really kind of own your defects and your blemishes so that they're not measuring themselves against the Gwyneth Paltrow they see on the cover of a magazine because that's that's just a dicey yeah right airbrushed whatever yeah it's to be a person in the public eye to the degree that I am and have been for all these years I don't think I'll truly understand what the purpose of it was and you know for a long time but there must be some purpose to it because I'm here and this is my life and I'm impacting people's lives and in ways they like and don't like and I'm starting conversations and, you know, triggering people and resonating with people and it's like, wow, okay, well, this is something like, God put me here for something.

[1192] I'm just going to, I guess, like, keep being true to myself and doing my thing and maybe one day I'll understand, like, in a greater context, what the point of it was.

[1193] Well, what I like about your thing is it's not like you're telling us, you haven't dedicated your life to the best rental car company in the world.

[1194] Like, you're clearly, what you're putting out is the things that you genuinely are super interested in, right?

[1195] Like, you're very interested in food.

[1196] I'm very interested in people having autonomy over their lives and optimization.

[1197] And what does it mean to have autonomy?

[1198] autonomy over your life.

[1199] Like for example, you know, I think for a lot of women specifically, there's been this thing in the culture of like, I don't feel well, something's wrong, and doctors are like, you're fine.

[1200] This is a recurrent theme that we've heard over and over again.

[1201] There's nothing in your blood work, you're fine.

[1202] No, genuine, I'm telling you like something's off.

[1203] I don't feel well.

[1204] I don't know what it is.

[1205] And there's, you know, like, for example, when they test drugs, they test them on white men.

[1206] There's a very little study behind the science, and we're so different.

[1207] Well, the Ambient thing.

[1208] They come to find out Ambien is twice as powerful in women than men.

[1209] That's why these women are like driving to 7 -Eleven to buy Twizzlers in a blackout.

[1210] Right.

[1211] So I think that, you know, at Goop, we try to say, hey, there are a lot of questions you can ask, and it can be about food, relationship, health, wellness, fashion, anything.

[1212] And, Going back to shame, like nothing eliminates shame, like opening a forum to say, it's just okay to ask this question.

[1213] So whether it's about sexual health, whether it's about, you know, eating or not eating lectins or whatever, it's like, let's just create a space where we can ask the questions.

[1214] And we get really fascinated by some of the more alternative therapies or modalities or approaches to things.

[1215] Because we think, you know, You know, when we see maybe there's not like a double -blind placebo -backed study on acupuncture, but you can see like anecdotally, wow, I couldn't get pregnant.

[1216] And then I started acupuncture and now I'm pregnant.

[1217] You know, like there are those really interesting.

[1218] So people can think acupuncture is bananas or they can think, wow, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence here that it really helps people.

[1219] Also, the cost of experimenting with something isn't that high.

[1220] It's like, it doesn't, so I have psoriotic arthritis.

[1221] I tried every single Western option known to man. And my wife's like, I'm sending you to an R -Vatic healer to do Panchama cleanse.

[1222] I'm like, that's horseshit.

[1223] It's whatever.

[1224] I went and did it.

[1225] Lo and behold, my joints didn't.

[1226] And I was like, oh, okay, well, I've got to acknowledge that that really happened.

[1227] The body has amazing capacity to heal itself.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] But, okay, so I heard you talking about when you're referencing like Instagram and everything, you sound like you're you're smart enough to go oh am I just being the parents who watch the Beatles and freaked out well exactly right like you you have the ability to zoom out to a macro thing and just go oh am I just behaving like an older person now I do want to ask you this so we had this great um a doctor on here uh Dr Wendy mogul she said that in absence of religion and she's not a shill for a religion it's not like she's pro religion that often you see a pattern uh where people start getting religion about food and my wife was listening to the episode and she goes oh my god i so have what wendy was saying i've made food my religion yeah and with it comes like this weird propensity towards shame and toxifying and detoxifying all these things that are really kind of religious concepts of purity and sin and it just it maps quite beautifully onto our kind of inherent you know in our DNA we of a propensity for religion like it's part of our evolution so do you ever say to yourself oh hmm i might also just being like that thing might be filling that yeah i mean i think that look what is the point of religion it's to give a context to this thing of being human like we want there to be meaning behind our suffering we don't just want to be abjectly suffering we want to be getting somewhere.

[1230] We want, we want to believe that, you know, when we do something good, there's a butterfly effect to that.

[1231] Like, it has ramifications.

[1232] I think it's a very human feeling to want to feel interconnected and to assign a context to our lives.

[1233] And so I think that's what religion does.

[1234] And perhaps in this modern era, other things are able to offer us context.

[1235] Yeah.

[1236] What are your self -esteem builders?

[1237] The factors that have impacted my self -esteem most are my relationship with my husband and my children.

[1238] You know, when my children are, when I see them free to be themselves and, you know, singing when they think nobody's listening and, like, their baseline, like, of course, life is really hard and their ups and downs and they have, you know, sad days and whatever.

[1239] But I'm so happy with their baseline.

[1240] Uh -huh.

[1241] When all said and done, they start at a good place, you know?

[1242] And so I think that says to me, like, hey, I haven't totally botched this up, right?

[1243] Like the values that I try to instill in them and Chris as well, you know, trying to make an atmosphere of home and love and support and non -judgment, like not parenting out of instinct, but parenting out of like, okay, who am I trying to put into the world and how can I do that?

[1244] Yeah.

[1245] And when you get little indications that, like, it might be working, I think it's, it feels great.

[1246] How about when they're nice to each other?

[1247] Is there a greater feeling in the world?

[1248] No. It is the greatest.

[1249] When they're kind to one another and no one's watching.

[1250] If you, like, catch it through a window.

[1251] And it doesn't happen that often.

[1252] No, they're assholes in general.

[1253] I mean, they are not, we're not born nice.

[1254] We've got to go through the grinder to get that way.

[1255] I also just, I want to say, because I do think it's important.

[1256] But I think like when you feel, free in your sexuality.

[1257] It's a very good self -esteem builder.

[1258] Tell me more literally what that means.

[1259] I just mean like if you can, like it's such a specific space to be in, right?

[1260] Like having sex with your partner.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] And like to, I think to be in that space and to be who you really are and to be seen and not judged for that, like I think that is a universal self -esteem.

[1263] builder.

[1264] Yeah, I agree.

[1265] And it's so required for connection and maintenance and all that.

[1266] And I do think that the sexual component of a relationship is by far the hardest to maintain over time.

[1267] Right, right, right.

[1268] Because it requires vulnerability about the thing generally we're all most fearful of.

[1269] Like, are we enough?

[1270] Do we fulfill the person we'd like to fulfill?

[1271] It requires the most tight and sense of vulnerability, I think, which generally is why people will put it off or not deal with it.

[1272] And it's so easy for that thing to break down and just so hard to repair.

[1273] Yes.

[1274] That is such a good point.

[1275] And that was basically my last question was just simply, what did you enter into your marriage with Brad going, I'm going to do this aspect right this time?

[1276] Like, what is this time?

[1277] I got another shot at it.

[1278] Yeah.

[1279] I think this time, what I'm, the intention that I've set is I think that I have made a full commitment through the extreme fear and vulnerability to find true intimacy and to stick with it.

[1280] And I couldn't handle it last time.

[1281] I wasn't ready to deal with.

[1282] all of the unhealed stuff that would come up through just like unbroken eye contact with somebody and, you know, both literally and metaphorically.

[1283] Like somebody observing me fully, I see you and I'm observing this and like having to face what I hadn't healed yet, which real intimacy was bringing up.

[1284] And like I was always a person who was oscillating through relationships and I had a lot of walls up that I didn't even know.

[1285] And I wasn't, it wasn't natural to be fully accountable for that stuff.

[1286] And, you know, you can always blame, it's so easy to blame your partner, like, oh, I'm fine.

[1287] I'm ready for this.

[1288] Like, look at that maniac who's doing X, Y, and Z, you know?

[1289] And the truth is, like, you have chosen that person for whatever reason.

[1290] And a lot of times we choose people that we can hide behind.

[1291] But it's hard for, it would be, it's very, it's very hard for me and I'm sure it's even harder for other people to imagine that you would have insecurities.

[1292] Oh my God.

[1293] I had so many.

[1294] I mean, I think this is one of the beautiful things about a woman post 40 is like at a certain point.

[1295] You're like, fuck it.

[1296] Like, I'm going to be who I am.

[1297] Yeah.

[1298] I'm not going to look in the mirror and be so critical of everything.

[1299] And I'm not going to, you know, rehash every mistake I've ever made in my life and philagulate myself for it.

[1300] Like, I really did feel when I turned 40, I could feel a real shift.

[1301] And I was like, I'm not going to do that anymore because I was ruled by my insecurities and, like, by the idea that I was unlovable.

[1302] And I kept just trying to prove that out.

[1303] Yeah, and it's so crazy to imagine you having those fears, but it, we all have them.

[1304] It's the human existence.

[1305] Absolutely.

[1306] Wait, I just have to ask the same question.

[1307] So, like, what having now been in this intimate relationship?

[1308] for all these years, what is the most profound lesson that you get from being married?

[1309] The thing that I think I can't speak for Kristen, but I can speak for myself, which is I now know, I now I've learned to recognize the difference between an annoyance and an actual issue.

[1310] Right.

[1311] So I'm not going to like the fact that Kristen doesn't close cupboard doors.

[1312] she doesn't put the tops on things.

[1313] There's all kinds of things that are going to annoy me about her.

[1314] I do that too.

[1315] I can tell, I now have a great radar system that when we start debating something and it can be innocuous, it can be about some topic, whatever, if I can feel on my chest, I'm starting to get heated and my breathing is starting to get constricted and my nostrils are starting to flare, I now say to myself, oh, she just hit a fear.

[1316] And I will say to her, hey, please let me pause.

[1317] I'm going to go in the room for 10 minutes and I'm just going to kind of think through what fear is actually being triggered because I don't think it's about the covered doors.

[1318] I guess my message to people would be basically in relationships when things are getting heated, that's a great, great time for you to take a look at what fear is being triggered.

[1319] Because just so important for husbands to hear that.

[1320] Yeah.

[1321] You're very, you really are very evolved, Axe.

[1322] Well, thank you so much.

[1323] I think you are too.

[1324] And you don't trigger me at all.

[1325] you make me feel good and I look at the things you put out into the world and I go, oh, this person just I love watching someone explore things they love.

[1326] I watch documentaries about hand gliders.

[1327] I'm not going to hand glide, but I go, wow, look at this person.

[1328] They're expressing this thing they're committed their life to.

[1329] And I look at you and I go, this is awesome.

[1330] I don't agree with half the stuff you're saying.

[1331] I'm not going to eat like you, but I'm delighted to witness you be on fire for something.

[1332] Thank you.

[1333] It's fun to watch.

[1334] Thank you so much.

[1335] I adore you and I look forward and the next time we bump into each other.

[1336] You're kind of like a little life raft now when I go to these things and I feel insecure.

[1337] It can always come to me. All right, I will.

[1338] Sit in my laugh in a platonic way.

[1339] Yeah, the most plutonic way.

[1340] Thank you.

[1341] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1342] What goes in?

[1343] that pretty little head of yours what goes on in this place where i park i feel like i may have been talking on my butt hey monica can you check it out this is a disaster i suppose there's truth in every little lie i feel it's important to recognize hey monica hey monica Harmonica I like that they added harmonica Oh yeah that was a wrench they threw in They did Chris Giffin did Hmm Thanks Chris At Dirty Frank D -R -T -Y Frank That was a nice song It sure was Thank you for singing it Yeah I'll keep trying I'll get so far I don't think I've gotten one that was above a D But we'll keep working on it Something to aspire to Yeah Good morning Monica welcome to today's fact check welcome welcome to you welcome to you welcome to you too who are we fact checking gwyneth oh winnith praltro yeah oh my gosh let's talk about guinea paul whoa whoa whoa because you as i've said on here this always embarrasses you but occasionally we've had a few guests where i look over and you are just full retractor being caught in someone's love web yeah and i've only seen it with boys Mm -hmm.

[1344] As we all know, Monica loves boys.

[1345] She sure does.

[1346] She sure do.

[1347] But, boy, I looked over and you were gobs, gobs sucked, gobsmacked, you were gobsmacked by Gwyneth Paltrow's powers, weren't you?

[1348] Yes.

[1349] I walked up to the attic, and she was standing there.

[1350] And let me say, well, first of all, I love Goop.

[1351] My mom and I love Goop.

[1352] Okay.

[1353] My mom, Kristen and I. You're already a fan of Goop.

[1354] Yes.

[1355] In fact, Kristen and I talked beforehand about should I wear some clothes?

[1356] that are from her website.

[1357] Oh, okay.

[1358] And I said no. And Kristen said yes.

[1359] But I didn't.

[1360] I stuck to my guns.

[1361] And I was cool.

[1362] I played it cool.

[1363] I wore regular stupid jeans.

[1364] Street clothes.

[1365] And a stupid sweatshirt probably.

[1366] I don't remember exactly what it was.

[1367] But this is so you and I. This is our approach.

[1368] We've talked about it before.

[1369] Oh, oh, trying to be like so cool.

[1370] Yeah, like we don't even care about you.

[1371] Yeah.

[1372] We ignore you.

[1373] Like I didn't even brush my hair today, Gwenith.

[1374] But I came up and she was standing there and I felt like she was just glowing and wearing no makeup and glowing.

[1375] And I immediately felt completely inadequate.

[1376] Like I hated myself as soon as I saw her.

[1377] That I think is why she's so triggering to people.

[1378] It's exactly why.

[1379] I mean, I was smart enough to know that that was my thing.

[1380] Your stuff.

[1381] She clearly couldn't have done anything because she was just standing there.

[1382] By the way, yeah, she hadn't even put on makeup.

[1383] If anything, she's probably downplaying everything.

[1384] Although she was wearing the cutest outfit.

[1385] Oh, my God.

[1386] You love it.

[1387] We got home from that.

[1388] Kristen said, who did you guys just interview?

[1389] And we said, Gwyneth Paltrow.

[1390] And immediately she looked at it.

[1391] She goes, what was she wearing?

[1392] Yeah.

[1393] And we just had a field day talking about it.

[1394] And we found the sweater.

[1395] I almost bought it, but I didn't buy it.

[1396] But I wouldn't have known one article.

[1397] Like, it was just a minute ago.

[1398] I don't remember if she was wearing jeans or a blouse or a dress or a snowmobile suit.

[1399] Like, I remember her face and all the things she said, but the outfit blew right over my head.

[1400] It was these awesome wide leg jeans.

[1401] They were rolled, but they were kind of like Koolotti a little bit.

[1402] They were jeans, though.

[1403] They were rolled.

[1404] And then this gorgeous sweat.

[1405] sweater blue striped it kind of had like a puffy shoulder you can see it right now in your oh yeah yeah i can and remember oh my god you embarrassed me so badly that's what dads do what i do so she had the most gorgeous handbag and it was sitting by sort of my feet and i was i saw it and i said oh my gosh is this yours i love this and you said that looks just like yours and you pointed to my, oh, stinky, my stinky, ratty old, yak gallbladder.

[1406] Just looks like a fucking barf bag.

[1407] And you pointed it out, so then she had to see it.

[1408] And then she probably felt like she had to be like, yeah, it's the same.

[1409] Oh, my God.

[1410] That's so embarrassing.

[1411] I know exactly, like, for me, the, what would be analogous is that, like, Jay Leno came over in a, in a, in a McLaren, the three -seater McLaren, you're like, oh, Dax has the same car, and then you pointed to my pickup truck.

[1412] And I'd be like, oh, God.

[1413] I bet it's even worse than that.

[1414] Is it?

[1415] Like, nice.

[1416] Well, well, look, I also, my bag's fine.

[1417] I don't want to, I don't want, now I feel I'm not.

[1418] Did someone get that for you for a present?

[1419] No. Oh, I thought maybe that's why you just felt guilty.

[1420] No, but I don't want someone to see me on the street with it and then act like, that's the one you're talking about.

[1421] That's a nice bag.

[1422] I like that bag.

[1423] I like that bag.

[1424] I don't want anyone to think that.

[1425] But let me tell you, it was not in the same atmosphere as Gwen's bag.

[1426] Okay.

[1427] I love this girl's stuff.

[1428] I can't relate it all to what you're talking about.

[1429] Like when I looked at her bag and your bag, I did see the same thing.

[1430] I know.

[1431] I wasn't like, I wasn't speaking in it.

[1432] And in truth, I was, that was legit.

[1433] I was like, oh, well, don't you have the same one?

[1434] I really thought it was the same one.

[1435] Anyway, yeah.

[1436] So I felt completely inadequate and awestruck.

[1437] And it really was like, oh, yeah, some people just have that thing.

[1438] The X factor?

[1439] You have the X factor.

[1440] No, I don't.

[1441] I don't.

[1442] I don't have the thing she has.

[1443] Oh, I hate your guts.

[1444] I hate your guts.

[1445] You have the X factor.

[1446] No, I do not have the thing that she has where people walk in and then they think like, I could die right now.

[1447] You're right.

[1448] You don't have the same X factor.

[1449] Like, I don't have the same X factor that Jimmy Kimmel has.

[1450] They're different X factors.

[1451] But you have the X factor.

[1452] You probably have similar ones.

[1453] You're right.

[1454] That was a bad example.

[1455] Well, so this was interesting.

[1456] So I had this like very heightened experience here with her.

[1457] And then I went back and I was listening.

[1458] The thing about her really is.

[1459] Visual?

[1460] It's in person.

[1461] It's not.

[1462] I mean, she's obviously everyone's listened to this episode.

[1463] It's wonderful.

[1464] She's so thoughtful and interesting and smart and honest.

[1465] Oh, yeah.

[1466] She's fantastic.

[1467] But the thing where you literally feel like you don't, like, you're on stilts or something, like you are so unstable.

[1468] That's an in -person thing.

[1469] Like when I was listening back, I didn't feel that same thing that's not real.

[1470] It's just this crazy feeling.

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] Although I guess, you know, if I'm being honest and I think I mentioned it, when I did first, the first time I ever saw in real life in John's living room.

[1473] I too was like oh that's why she's a movie star like that's yeah she's a pretty overwhelming presence even though she comes in very soft and humble yeah there's kind of like an angelic quality I guess there yeah but she's also built like a brick shit house you know I just want to put that out in the universe yeah yeah but so it did make me feel like well I just made me think about my own insecurities and stuff and I was like do I wish I had that yes of course course.

[1474] I wish I had that thing.

[1475] But I also think that there's a benefit maybe to the opposite thing, which I have more of, which is I'm totally unremarkable.

[1476] Unassuming.

[1477] Unremarkable.

[1478] Okay.

[1479] And then when you get to know me a little more, I become a little bit more interesting as opposed to the opposite way.

[1480] I'm not saying Gwen and this becomes less interesting.

[1481] But right.

[1482] I'm just, you know.

[1483] I feel that way about myself.

[1484] And I like that.

[1485] Because I personally like to earn stuff.

[1486] Yeah.

[1487] You know, like, I want you to have some opinion of me before you meet me. And then I like the opportunity to show you who I am and then hopefully you like that person.

[1488] Yeah.

[1489] Anyway, so she was.

[1490] Overwhelming.

[1491] Yeah, overwhelming.

[1492] But the reason I was excited to have her on is because, and I said this, I heard her on Stern.

[1493] Mm -hmm.

[1494] And I was way more delighted to find out that she's so normal and humble.

[1495] Yeah.

[1496] Because I can't relate to someone who's a superstar with an Academy Award, who seems to eat perfect and everything.

[1497] Right.

[1498] But then to hear her, that's what I really became attracted to her, you know?

[1499] Yeah.

[1500] Yeah.

[1501] But she really does something to people.

[1502] People feel, they feel what I felt, but they, like, for something.

[1503] I don't know how it happened, but I felt inadequate, but I didn't put it on her.

[1504] I didn't then say like, oh, she thinks she's better than me. That's what people do.

[1505] They feel less than and they assume the person's doing that intentionally.

[1506] Like, they think they're better than you.

[1507] But that woman does not think she's better than anybody.

[1508] No. That's the truth.

[1509] No, not at all.

[1510] No. It's really fascinating.

[1511] Yeah.

[1512] She's one of the more fascinating people in that way.

[1513] Yeah.

[1514] Very triggering.

[1515] Very.

[1516] It's weird because, like, guys, I can't think of a guy that has that effect.

[1517] Like, Brad Pitt is the equivalent of her, basically.

[1518] Like, you just see him.

[1519] I've seen him in real life.

[1520] I'm like, God, man, do you have a stylist just for when you wake up in the morning?

[1521] Like, whatever he's wearing to me looks like.

[1522] Perfect.

[1523] Like, you know, or whatever hairdo he has.

[1524] I'm like, oh, that's the coolest hairdo you can have.

[1525] Yeah.

[1526] But it doesn't seem, guys don't seem to hate him for that.

[1527] Yes.

[1528] I just had a conversation on Marco Polo with my girls, girlfriends.

[1529] We're on a group Marco Polo, about five of us girls, my mom, included and we were talking about another guest that's coming up another female guest that's coming up and um another one that's that's labeled intimidating a lot and i was talking about her and she's just fucking phenomenal i can't wait to release that episode oh yeah she was incredible and i was saying to my girls it's weird because this intimidation factor when women feel it they again, just to perpetuate this gender disparity.

[1530] Sure, sure.

[1531] Asterix.

[1532] This is anecdotal, blah, blah, blah.

[1533] Yeah.

[1534] Well, I just say it so that we can try to fix it, you know?

[1535] Yeah, yeah.

[1536] That I, in my experience, when women are intimidated by other women, they put it on the other person.

[1537] It's very outward about the other.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] And when men feel intimidated, I think it's more internal.

[1540] Mm -hmm.

[1541] I think then they are like, oh, I want that.

[1542] Yes.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] When I look at Brett Pitt, I am never mad at him for looking at like that.

[1545] I'm just like, fuck.

[1546] Well, at least I can try to get his body in Fight Club.

[1547] Like, I can change my body to look like his.

[1548] Yeah.

[1549] Like you, it becomes an internal thing of trying to achieve that other thing, not competing for that other thing.

[1550] Although, which is weird, because there is like male like alpha and status.

[1551] I never, I never look at him and go like, oh, he thinks he's.

[1552] He's better than everyone.

[1553] I look at him and go, oh, he is better than everyone and I just feel inferior to him.

[1554] I don't think he thinks he's better than anyone.

[1555] Right.

[1556] It might be some interesting male -female thing here.

[1557] I think it is.

[1558] Well, and I do think in general, females, they emote outwardly.

[1559] That's why they're good nurturers because they can take care of others and they're very aware of others.

[1560] And I think men are a little bit less.

[1561] Well, even see this in parenting, right?

[1562] It's like as when you get pregnant and you start bumping into other women who have had kids, immediately they'll start saying like, oh, I did a vaginal birth.

[1563] Like that's phase one.

[1564] And then I did a vaginal birth without an epidural.

[1565] That's like phase two.

[1566] Then I had a home birth.

[1567] Now I had my baby in our bed.

[1568] And then the woman that's hearing this that's pregnant starts taking on all this stuff of like, oh, well, that's what you got to.

[1569] do to be a perfect mom is you got to have it in the back of a fucking, a horse -drawn carriage for it to be pure.

[1570] Yeah.

[1571] And there's all this guilt and shame and competition about the mother.

[1572] I never is, are the dads going like, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to be in the delivery room drunk.

[1573] Then the next one's, I'm going to be sober.

[1574] I'm going to help deliver the baby.

[1575] I'm going to cut the, yeah, I'm going to cut the cord.

[1576] I'm going to, I'm going to be in the bathtub adding a cold compress to my wife's forehead.

[1577] Guys aren't getting into that, interestingly.

[1578] Yeah.

[1579] There's all this mom shaming, I guess is what I'm saying.

[1580] There's very little dad shaming.

[1581] And I think it's terrible, but I also think it's mostly driven by intrasex.

[1582] Yeah, totally.

[1583] I don't think men are generally going like, in fact, I've never heard a dude go, oh my God, do you hear that Brian's wife is only breastfeeding for six months?

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] It doesn't happen.

[1586] Like, guys aren't really evaluating how good of a mother is by whether she breastfed or not, how long she breastfed, what kind of delivery she had.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] Something curious there.

[1589] Yeah.

[1590] I think that's interesting.

[1591] But I also think, what I said, I don't know if I made that point well, but I think biologically and evolutionarily speaking, there's like a reason women are focused on others and men are more focused on themselves.

[1592] I see that as a sort of a pattern.

[1593] And so it comes off in good ways and bad ways.

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] To wrap up.

[1596] You're on a chain.

[1597] Yeah.

[1598] I mean, that in itself is so male -female.

[1599] The fact that you have a Marco Polo group of women where you're.

[1600] you guys discuss all these things you guys like to talk about everything yeah yeah and guys just generally aren't on or in my life guys aren't on these chains where we kind of discuss stuff which is right that's true yeah yeah i'm so i feel so lucky to be a woman yeah that sounds fun that's really well i'm half as you know half girl so sure i kind of would like to be on that chain too you're not very good at marco polo i hate it i mean i like it i think it's the coolest app i don't i turned up the notifications for it.

[1601] Clearly.

[1602] I had to.

[1603] Because I'm on these group ones with my family and they're coming in every 30 second.

[1604] I can't have that thing going off.

[1605] So I turned up notifications.

[1606] And then I just don't remember to open that app to see if I have anything.

[1607] And then when I do, it's the most daunting things.

[1608] There's like 65 different videos I have to watch.

[1609] Ooh.

[1610] Mm. Your privilege.

[1611] I was just going to say first country problems.

[1612] Is that the old hashtag?

[1613] First world.

[1614] First world.

[1615] Are we all even allowed to say that anymore, though?

[1616] I think recently I told we weren't allowed to.

[1617] Our third world is something we're not allowed to say.

[1618] Oh, okay.

[1619] I won't.

[1620] I always hated that.

[1621] What does that even mean?

[1622] I always hated that first world hashtag.

[1623] So, like, you're kind of venting about something.

[1624] And then someone basically says, you know, you're an entitled asshole for having that concern, which I just think people's concerns are their concerns.

[1625] I don't think there's a hierarchy.

[1626] It's like whatever's ailing you, you should talk about.

[1627] You shouldn't feel shame that that's the thing you're wrestling with.

[1628] You know, I understand it's like some attempt to keep people humble, but there's other ways to stay humble.

[1629] I agree.

[1630] Though I think it's good to check in with your place in the world and know, like, if you're spending an hour, like, bummed that, you know, the door on the jet is stuck.

[1631] Like, we can have some recognition that, like, we're doing fine and we're doing fine.

[1632] we it's okay but even that the door on the jet right we should just tell people this really yeah so so so because we were in town on business in san antonio for hello bello yep and one of our partners has a jet yep so we took that which is fucking awesome it was awesome it was so we all got to just show up and get on and take off five minutes later it was it was awesome yeah and then when we left the door became stuck jammed which they can't take off if the door's stuck, not the one leading out of the plane, but within the cabin.

[1633] Yes.

[1634] And we were stuck in there for like 20 minutes, right?

[1635] So, okay, so that part is completely unrelatable, unsympathetic, for you, your private jet door was stuck.

[1636] But what was relatable is I really wanted to get home because I was leaving to go to New York seven hours later.

[1637] So what I'm, the reason I want that door open and why it's a problem is I want to sleep.

[1638] Of course.

[1639] I want to see the kids.

[1640] I want to, like, there's all these real human things happening under the belly of the.

[1641] Yeah.

[1642] I'm not saying that it's not.

[1643] I'm not saying, but, but it is incumbent on the person who is sitting on a jet to have some awareness that like, to not consider it to be like the worst thing that's happening because it's just not the worst thing.

[1644] Which we didn't.

[1645] We were laughing the whole time.

[1646] We didn't.

[1647] I just used that as an example of a crazy thing.

[1648] Oh, well, no. So the next day, seven hours later, I find.

[1649] flew to New York on the jet because it was, again, business.

[1650] I feel so, that makes me so nervous, right?

[1651] I know.

[1652] But someone would think that I pay for a private jet.

[1653] That's my own, my own insecurity.

[1654] Anyways, we flew there.

[1655] We landed in New York at Teterboro, Teterboro, whatever.

[1656] We just got off the plane.

[1657] We're in the little private airport lobby in this, like, 65 -year -old man with a fucking U .S. squash hat comes up to me and Ben and someone else.

[1658] and goes, did you guys just leave Burbank?

[1659] Did you depart from Burbank?

[1660] And we go, yeah.

[1661] And he goes, we were stuck behind you.

[1662] You made us 25 minutes late.

[1663] They wouldn't let us pass you.

[1664] And I'm like, oh, okay, cool story, dude.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] He laughed.

[1667] And I'm like, the two points of that were, A, my jet's faster than yours.

[1668] And you were 20 minutes late in your private jet.

[1669] And yes, I was like, look at this fucking asshole.

[1670] He's already in a private plane.

[1671] he's mad he's mad at us that our jet was 20 minutes slower what a repugnant exchange this was yes and then when you told me that story i agree but also think maybe he's a person who recognized you and wanted to talk to you and it's not so equipped to come up with the right thing to say so he said that yeah that's a very very benevolent take on it which i i should aspire to to that.

[1672] But I don't think this guy knew that me from a hole in the wall.

[1673] I don't think you can know that.

[1674] I mean, do 65 year old squash players?

[1675] Are they my demo?

[1676] If so, I need to change a few things about my messaging.

[1677] They might be.

[1678] Okay.

[1679] So you said that you had a couple toes removed before the interview.

[1680] And that is a big lie.

[1681] You had surgery on one of your toes.

[1682] Yeah, my middle toe on my right foot because I have psorionic arthritis.

[1683] And one of the joints fused, I wouldn't move.

[1684] And it was very painful when I did sprints or height.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] So I went in originally to just have that knuckle kind of cut down and allow it to straighten out.

[1687] And when he did the x -rays, and you know, your phalangee and your foot is too long.

[1688] This should be an arc. Right.

[1689] We should shorten this while I'm in there.

[1690] Yeah.

[1691] And I'm a sucker for a good upsell.

[1692] Clearly.

[1693] You planned it, dare I say, extremely poor.

[1694] You planned it.

[1695] Two days before our live show.

[1696] Two days before our live show.

[1697] The day before this important interview.

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] And.

[1700] But I had no choice.

[1701] It was either I did it then or I did it in June.

[1702] June would have been fine.

[1703] Well, then I would have been a little bit hurt when I hike.

[1704] Oh, that's true.

[1705] I don't want.

[1706] I don't want that to happen.

[1707] No, that's not.

[1708] That's not.

[1709] People can hike everywhere.

[1710] That's true.

[1711] Very democratizing.

[1712] exercise.

[1713] Yeah.

[1714] It doesn't require a gym.

[1715] No. They don't, there's no admission prize.

[1716] So anyway, how do you think your toe looks now?

[1717] I think it looks so cute.

[1718] Well, let's just say at the time of the interview, I had a steel rod through the toe that was to keep it straight while it healed.

[1719] Yes.

[1720] Side note, I took a video of it being removed.

[1721] And the video's 40 seconds long.

[1722] I thought that they were just going to jerk it right out, like a tooth.

[1723] Yeah.

[1724] No, he worked it out slowly over the course of 40 seconds.

[1725] It's a gnarly video.

[1726] But anyways, my toe is now, would best be described is the toe from a chubby six -year -old.

[1727] That's what it looks like.

[1728] A chubby six -year -old's toe in the middle of my long, gangly toes.

[1729] My foot is so gross looking now.

[1730] It's ridiculous.

[1731] No, it's not at all.

[1732] not at all gross, but it is fun.

[1733] It's a little bit funny.

[1734] And I deserve it because I used to brag about how beautiful my feet are.

[1735] I even showed off my feet on Kimmel one time, how elegant the arch was and sophisticated.

[1736] The whole thing was.

[1737] And then I got my comeuppance because now one foot doesn't have a nail on it.

[1738] Another one's got a baby toe on it.

[1739] The whole thing.

[1740] It looks comical.

[1741] Yeah.

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] I bet they're only getting worse.

[1744] Well, this is what happens when you get older.

[1745] Of all the things to deteriorate visually, your feet, that's a good one.

[1746] Do you think I should have the rest of the toes shortened to match?

[1747] That would be great.

[1748] But just keep your big toe big.

[1749] And then the rest is just tiny babies.

[1750] Something for reference.

[1751] Okay.

[1752] So you asked her if she was a singer, if like she liked singing and stuff because you were talking about cold play and Chris Martin.

[1753] But you forgot or maybe you didn't know that she was in that movie.

[1754] duets that her dad directed yes and she sings in that she sings cruising well she sings i think multiple things but she sings that song cruising cruising on a sunday afternoon no no that's not the motown cruising um no she sings it with hewey lewis and it's um i can't sing it but why not because do you know how it goes no i don't want to i'm scared of it i'd peer pressure you but i know that's going to yield zero results stall work against any peer pressure Oh I love it when we're cruising together Them since I'm made in love Love thought of the metal I love it When we're cruising to Smokey Robinson That's it.

[1755] Oh really?

[1756] Yeah Yeah Yeah, 1974 Smoky DeAngelo did it too It's a good song After I watched that movie I sang it a lot in my bedroom.

[1757] But not on here.

[1758] No. You know on here she said that she really liked harmonizing.

[1759] Oh, yeah.

[1760] So she probably did a lot of harmonizing there.

[1761] Your mother likes that too, Kristen.

[1762] She's obsessed with this new Ben Platt album or song that's out.

[1763] And I heard her listening to it on YouTube by herself harmonizing in the kitchen.

[1764] Yeah, that's nice.

[1765] I think it's cute.

[1766] It's so cute.

[1767] It's so cute.

[1768] So that's a good movie.

[1769] And she sings in it.

[1770] All that to say.

[1771] Good movie.

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] I mean, just going back a little bit to her being so triggering for people.

[1774] If people are triggered by her and then they listen to this, I hope that they take away just like a girl who loves her dad.

[1775] Yes.

[1776] Just like anyone else, you know?

[1777] A lot.

[1778] A lot.

[1779] Oh, the way she talks about her dad.

[1780] Yeah.

[1781] It's made me tear up a few times.

[1782] Yeah.

[1783] You're a baby.

[1784] So, conscious uncoupling.

[1785] Mm -hmm.

[1786] There's a book by Catherine Woodward Thomas called Conscious Uncoupling The Five Steps to Living Happily Even After.

[1787] Happily Even After.

[1788] I get it.

[1789] Oh, I do get it.

[1790] Even.

[1791] She added the word even.

[1792] Instead of ever.

[1793] Yeah.

[1794] She replaced the R with an N. I think that's cheeky and I like it.

[1795] Me too.

[1796] I love the idea of conscious uncoupling.

[1797] Versus your parents are talking shit on each other and fighting over what day you're there.

[1798] I mean, what a terrible way to.

[1799] I know.

[1800] And then you got to appease each parent by acting like you hate the other one.

[1801] I mean, that versus like getting along and being peaceful.

[1802] I know.

[1803] I don't see how anyone could be against that.

[1804] Well, again, I know why because a lot of people have really hard divorces and it's really difficult.

[1805] And then they're like, oh, great, she even got divorced perfectly.

[1806] Right.

[1807] You know, I can't stand this bitch wife of mine.

[1808] And somehow, Gwyneth is spending the holidays with him.

[1809] I get it.

[1810] I know.

[1811] But it's not.

[1812] That's your, that's your shit, y 'all.

[1813] Yeah, exactly.

[1814] So you talk a lot about Brad Pitt, your love.

[1815] I wish she would have told us more details about what it was like to be intimate with him.

[1816] Well, she said that they did more than kiss.

[1817] Well, I presumed that.

[1818] But I wish she would have, like, given numerical rating to his lovemaking or describe what his penis look like.

[1819] Oh, boy.

[1820] Oh, boy.

[1821] It's just beautiful.

[1822] It's just getting that.

[1823] out of control no don't you don't you imagine he has a beautiful penis i'm sure yeah yeah i'd love i'd like to see it yeah we all would i think yeah mainly me that's the great unifier brad pitt that's true i think that's probably true but she also dated my boyfriend yeah that did not come up oh i'm sorry that's okay you're really focused on your own you should ask her what's like to kiss No, I wouldn't have asked details like that.

[1824] Even though I'm curious.

[1825] Of course.

[1826] Well, I'm guarantee you would have loved to get a description of his peepee.

[1827] Sure.

[1828] I told you the other day, you can see it just a tiny bit in the movie Gone Girl.

[1829] Just a side view.

[1830] So quick.

[1831] But you saw a penis.

[1832] But yeah.

[1833] I registered that as seeing his penis.

[1834] And I liked it.

[1835] And am I right in that no matter what his penis look like?

[1836] that would be the perfect penis for you?

[1837] Sure.

[1838] Yeah.

[1839] I don't have that.

[1840] That should be comforting to dudes.

[1841] Yeah.

[1842] Like if the girl likes you, she's going to think you have the perfect penis.

[1843] Yeah, that's exactly right.

[1844] I would be much harsher in my critique of his penis.

[1845] I would have a lot of different metrics by which I would evaluate Ben's penis.

[1846] I'm sure.

[1847] Skin tone.

[1848] Okay.

[1849] Freckles?

[1850] Size of the meatis, you know.

[1851] What's that mean?

[1852] That's the head.

[1853] Oh, okay.

[1854] you know all kinds of things i'd have i'd really be harsh in my evaluation of it that's interesting because i'm not doing that with girls boobs no no i'm not like i'm not a harsh critic of them well again we are we talked about the weird things girls do well the weird thing boys do is they're so penis obsessed it's crazy you know so weird i know okay and then you told gwyneth that she met brad doing our third favorite movie of all time.

[1855] But why did you say third?

[1856] I don't know.

[1857] Well, it's not our first.

[1858] Seven's not our first favorite movie, is it?

[1859] I guess not, but it's like, I guess it's third.

[1860] Upon closer inspection, I guess it is indeed.

[1861] Well, I don't know what first or second is.

[1862] What do you think first or second is?

[1863] And are you talking about our mutual?

[1864] I don't even...

[1865] Yeah, it's hard to say.

[1866] Well, yeah.

[1867] I like, I think I like my...

[1868] Michael Clayton more.

[1869] And you like the prestige.

[1870] I love the prestige.

[1871] Do you like it more or less than seven?

[1872] I'd say it's a tie.

[1873] No, I like seven more than the prestige.

[1874] But, you know, my number one is, of course, taken by thief.

[1875] That's my favorite.

[1876] Movie of all time.

[1877] Yeah, yeah, drama.

[1878] Well, obviously my favorite movie of all time is Good Well, Hunting, obviously.

[1879] I guess maybe for our overlap, it might be our first favorite movie that's shared, I guess.

[1880] That's possible.

[1881] Might be.

[1882] We love Gone Girl, though, too.

[1883] Love it.

[1884] love it.

[1885] Yeah.

[1886] Yeah.

[1887] See that peepee.

[1888] See the little peepie.

[1889] But did you get, um, we see a little peep, not a little, not a tiny peep.

[1890] I don't know if it's tiny, it's fine.

[1891] I know, but we see a little bit of pee pee pee.

[1892] That's right.

[1893] You weren't saying that you thought it was little or big.

[1894] I could not decipher the size.

[1895] Right.

[1896] And if we're clarifying, I'm not talking about pee pee pee as in urine.

[1897] Right.

[1898] Yeah.

[1899] Pee penis.

[1900] Yeah.

[1901] Right.

[1902] Wait, fuck.

[1903] What was I going to say?

[1904] GERTH, I'd be really evaluating GERD, the vascularity.

[1905] You like Goodwill Hunting separately, though, because you went on your first date there.

[1906] I love Goodwell hunting.

[1907] Yeah.

[1908] I love that movie.

[1909] And I've done a lot of introspection about why that movie was so.

[1910] Good?

[1911] Yeah.

[1912] And I think that all of us have a fantasy that we're secretly a genius that no one's discovered.

[1913] Like, we like to believe that we're the janitor at MIT.

[1914] Like, there's something about that.

[1915] story that had this wish fulfillment aspect that we all feel super special in some way that no one's discovered I stand by that's interesting I I like that theory I don't know if I agree but I like it it's good theory so shagnon the anthro teacher he's an American anthropologist professor of anthropology at the University of Missouri in Columbia and member of the National Academy of Sciences.

[1916] So I guess maybe he used to work there.

[1917] He used to be at UCB.

[1918] UCSB, yeah.

[1919] UCB.

[1920] He used to teach improv.

[1921] He could have got that green hallucinogenic shot up his nose.

[1922] He could probably improv circles around Manzukas.

[1923] Don't, no one can.

[1924] You're right.

[1925] I just wanted to throw someone good at it.

[1926] It was basically like saying he'd be better at basketball than Michael Jordan if he was on it.

[1927] Right.

[1928] So it's a compliment to Manzukas.

[1929] Right.

[1930] Shagnon.

[1931] is known for his long -term ethnographic field work among the Yanomomo, a society of indigenous tribal Amazonians, in which he used an evolutionary approach to understand social behavior in terms of genetic relatedness.

[1932] The Yanomamo, the fierce people.

[1933] His work had centered on the analysis of violence among tribal peoples, and using sociobiological analysis, he has advanced the argument that violence among them is fueled by an evolutionary process in which successful warriors have more offspring now i do want to say i'm a huge fan of shagnon it's really what got me into anthropology yeah is those those videos uh but but he there is some criticism as well he's been called the most controversial anthropologist in the united states the criticism i've heard is that he overinflated what role violence plays in their culture got it but you watch these videos they do you know not only do they they hit each other over the head with these long planks of wood they then shaved the tops of their head to display the scars that they've acquired and uh and they they do or i don't know if they still do but at that time they did raid each other's villages all the time and kill a bunch of guys steal women i mean it's it's yeah i understand i think the criticism they felt like it was perpetuating this previous version of of anthropology, which was all about the primitive or the savage or, you know, the otherness.

[1934] That's their critique.

[1935] Got it.

[1936] But I think that kind of ignores what he very clearly documented on film.

[1937] She talks about how the majority of drugs are tested on white men.

[1938] And then you used an ambient example.

[1939] A study in immunogenics out of the University of California, San Francisco, this is just another example of this, reported that only 5 % of the genetic traits linked to asthma and European Americans applied to African Americans.

[1940] Other studies have also shown that different ethnicities have distinct genetic mutations that increase their risk for particular disease and affect how they respond to medicine.

[1941] Neglected by research, African American children have died from asthma at 10 times the rate of non -Hispanic white children.

[1942] Ugh.

[1943] Yeah, so it matters.

[1944] You know, this is like almost every disease it shakes out this way, which is said.

[1945] even, you know, I do a lot of prostate cancer awareness stuff in black males who are diagnosed with prostate cancer diet twice the rate as white males.

[1946] Really?

[1947] But again, this could all be a factor because maybe the administration of the medicine should be different and they don't know and who knows.

[1948] So this is interesting because remember when you're talking about swimming and whether it's ethical or not to acknowledge that there might be a different muscle composition among African Americans that that feels dicey but you do want that happening in medicine I know I know in pharmacology I agree so is relevant sometimes to figure out how we're different totally that's probably the one area yeah yeah in swimming and swimming and swimming and then yeah and yeah women appear to be more susceptible to this risk because they eliminate xolpidem from their bodies more slowly than men.

[1949] Because use of lower doses of Zolpidem will result in lower blood levels in the morning.

[1950] FDA is requiring the manufacturers of Ambien to lower the recommended dose.

[1951] I think it's half.

[1952] Women are supposed to take half the dose, men are.

[1953] I mean, what's interesting is there's a wide variety in how people process shit.

[1954] Yeah.

[1955] It's almost like everyone needs their genome mapped.

[1956] Oh, yeah.

[1957] Because, like, I watch my response to drugs versus other people's response to drugs there's something clearly way different going on in my body and the fact that i could take 30 vicodin and be acting in an episode of punk i know if you gave if i gave you or christin that amount of viking he'd likely die or i can drink a fifth of jack and still walk around and yeah you know running up up and down a flight of stairs yeah my body's metabolizing stuff much different yeah it's very it's very person to person all the drug react reactions.

[1958] Like I was on a drug that I switched to the generic, which is ostensibly the exact same thing.

[1959] And I had a lot of reaction.

[1960] Yeah.

[1961] And most people who are on that drug are on the generic version and are totally fine and not having any issues.

[1962] So yeah, it's so specific.

[1963] Yeah.

[1964] Anywho.

[1965] Is that it?

[1966] That's it.

[1967] Oh, that's it.

[1968] Well, you know, just a big thank you to Gwyneth Baltrow for coming on the podcast.

[1969] You know, that's, that was, I feel lucky for us.

[1970] Me too.

[1971] And we got to go on hers as well.

[1972] This is a crossover episode.

[1973] Let me add that.

[1974] Yeah.

[1975] You could probably hear a slightly different version of this conversation because, of course, we are downplaying how much I'm involved and up playing how much she's involved in our version and she will release.

[1976] Whatever she wants to release.

[1977] On Goop.

[1978] Yeah.

[1979] Should probably have more of me, I would presume.

[1980] Yes, I would.

[1981] It would be great if she cut out even.

[1982] more of me than we did.

[1983] That would be great.

[1984] I don't think she will.

[1985] All right.

[1986] I love you.

[1987] Love you.

[1988] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1989] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1990] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.