Lenore Skenazy

[0] Are you ready to do this?

[1] Bo, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, b 'all ready for this?

[2] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[3] I'm Dan Shepard.

[4] I'm joined by Monica Monsoon and nominated miniature mouse.

[5] What does your Starbucks cup say is your name?

[6] Poser.

[7] When you go to Starbucks, do they ever mess up your name?

[8] Oh, sure.

[9] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[10] Do they put Dan and dab?

[11] D -A -C -K -D -A -C -D -A -K.

[12] Oh, sure.

[13] Yeah, yeah, a lot of different ones.

[14] And you know my move for that is just like, whatever they say, I go, yep.

[15] Yeah.

[16] Yeah, it's just so much quicker.

[17] Imagine having a foreign name.

[18] Like Monica?

[19] Yeah.

[20] Can you imagine?

[21] Well, okay, today we have a guess that we've been wanting to have on now for a couple years because good old Jonathan Haight recommended her, and we finally made.

[22] it happen, Lenore Scanezzi.

[23] She is a journalist.

[24] She spent 14 years at the New York Daily News and two years at the New York Sun, her column, Why I Let My 9 -year -old Ride the Subway Alone and book Free Range Kids launched the anti -helicopter parenting movement.

[25] Currently, the co -founder and president of Let Grow with Jonathan Haidt.

[26] Their mission is to create a new path back for parents and schools to letting kids have some adventures, develop more independence, and grow resilient.

[27] I dig her message.

[28] Did you?

[29] Yeah.

[30] And it's scary.

[31] I know.

[32] I don't have kids, but I could see really having a hard time with this, with giving them independence.

[33] Yeah, yeah.

[34] But yeah, I'm very pro it, and I am committed to challenge even myself in this arena.

[35] Okay?

[36] Okay.

[37] All right.

[38] Please enjoy Lenore Scanaise.

[39] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

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[41] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[42] Okay, now I wrote out your name phonetically.

[43] So I'm dyslexic just to give you a precursor.

[44] So, you know, that's on me. That's not in you.

[45] But I wrote it out and I wonder, I don't know how to write phonetically, but I have my own system.

[46] But Lenore Scanezzi, how do I get?

[47] That's it.

[48] That's it.

[49] You got it.

[50] And how'd you write it?

[51] I wrote L .A. space, N -O -R -E, space, S -K -E -H -S -E -S -E -S -E -E -S -A, and then space N -A -Y -Z -Y.

[52] Wow, that's pretty good, yeah.

[53] That's it.

[54] Lenore, do you think I could get a job at Webster breaking down the...

[55] I think that's your calling.

[56] I'm surprised that you're wasting your time in L .A. So first and foremost, how are you doing?

[57] Nervous to be on your show, but in general, pretty good.

[58] Oh, wonderful.

[59] And why are you nervous to be on her show?

[60] I feel like I should be flattered for that.

[61] Yeah, I am.

[62] You should both be flattered, right?

[63] Monica's contributions too.

[64] Thank you.

[65] Nervous.

[66] I'm doing a podcast, and last week I think we had 500 listeners.

[67] So I'd say yours is a little bigger and that makes me nervous.

[68] Okay, but that's all to be credited to my wife.

[69] People are very interested in her.

[70] That's true.

[71] And we launched the show with a big fight between us and people seem to like that.

[72] Good.

[73] It's a yin -yang thing.

[74] Where are you from originally?

[75] Suburbs of Chicago.

[76] Midwesterner.

[77] fellow Midwestern?

[78] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[79] And what did your folks do?

[80] Mom was a homemaker.

[81] She started out as a social worker.

[82] And I think for the same reason, I started out as a reporter, you know, just really wanted to be able to, like you, to meet people and find out what's going on in that house and that house.

[83] And my dad had a furniture store, and he loved playing tennis.

[84] And when I, when he was 50, he sold the furniture store and started an indoor tennis club, which was totally fulfilling to him.

[85] And he ran that until he died around age 90.

[86] Did it have the big inflatable domes over?

[87] Or was it?

[88] No, that's new.

[89] I still don't even understand what those domes are.

[90] It looks like a bouncy house.

[91] It does.

[92] Yeah, I think they're much cheaper.

[93] You just inflate them with air like the Pontiac Silver Dome and then you're good to go, I think.

[94] That's my understanding of them.

[95] Now, you were a good student, clearly.

[96] You got into Yale.

[97] Yeah.

[98] And stayed in.

[99] Yeah.

[100] More importantly.

[101] And what was the driving force?

[102] Was it just your own interested in achieving things or were you driven by a parent?

[103] You know, it was sold.

[104] long ago that it wasn't a thing to start thinking about college until, like, junior year of high school.

[105] You know, in New York, there was that mom who sued the preschool where her four -year -old was going to school because the kid was in a class with two -year -olds, and it's like, how is my kid going to get into a good school?

[106] Oh, my God.

[107] If she's being held back by these two -year -old morons, you know, when my kid should be, you know, studying the Constitution or something.

[108] But back in the day, you sort of just went to school, and then eventually you met with your guidance counselor junior year, and they said time to start thinking about college, and you did.

[109] It wasn't a long -term plan.

[110] I'm in lockstep with you on all the free -range parenting and your Let Grow Foundation.

[111] We had Jonathan Haidt on two years ago, and he brought you up, and then we referenced you without learning any more about you, just simply what he said, we parroted it everywhere.

[112] Excellent.

[113] Keep doing it.

[114] But I'm also aware of my own why I think I'm predisposed to embrace it so much, which is I had a single mother raising three kids who was building a business, And I had an inordinate amount of free time and responsibility.

[115] And then my mother also was very generous and she let me take road trips at a young age, as long as I had a budget and the map and the whole nine.

[116] So I just happened to have loved that upbringing.

[117] So I wonder if I'm a little biased in that direction.

[118] And then, of course, I'm curious if you were maybe biased in that direction.

[119] Were your parents abnormally trusting?

[120] No, I'm not surprised that you're biased in that direction.

[121] I'd say everybody over 30 or 35 grew up the way you're talking about, maybe not on the road trips, maybe not in the Midwest.

[122] But the, you know, what we now call a free range or a let grow childhood was the norm back then.

[123] I mean, when I was five in the suburbs of Chicago, I was walking to kindergarten, right?

[124] It was just normal.

[125] And it wasn't like my mom was a daredevil or that she was like, you know, I'm going to show the world that my kid is independent.

[126] It was just everybody was walking to school.

[127] And the weird thing is when you got to the corner, there was a crossing guard.

[128] And the crossing guard, do you remember this?

[129] The crossing guard was a kid.

[130] So somehow a fellow kid was trusted with getting you across the street.

[131] And what did they have to stop traffic was a sash, you know, a orange day glow sash.

[132] I'm actually not even sure they had day glow back then, but he had a sash.

[133] And I don't even remember a stop sign.

[134] Well, they had them in my neighborhood, but it got increasingly heavier the longer you held it.

[135] And most of the time it wasn't employed in their duties.

[136] Right, right, right.

[137] It was probably left on the curb or hanging down, yeah, for all the traffic stopping good.

[138] That did.

[139] Yeah.

[140] So can I tell you one strange story about me and the crossing guard?

[141] Yeah, I would love to hear that.

[142] I married him.

[143] Oh, wow.

[144] Really?

[145] And not then.

[146] Not then.

[147] You know, it wasn't like, okay, let's meet up again.

[148] And it wasn't like he was an older man. He was 10.

[149] I was five.

[150] And I didn't stalk him.

[151] It wasn't man in a uniform.

[152] I got to go get him.

[153] It was just that we realized, actually, after we were married years later, he was like, he mentioned that he was a crossing guard.

[154] I'm like, where?

[155] And he said the corner of Ramona and look.

[156] I'm like, that's crazy.

[157] That was me. You got me safely who kept me alive so you can marry me 20 years later.

[158] That's so great.

[159] Well, I try to explain this to folks in California because most people that are either from California or have been there for decades like I have, we have an enormous immigrant population that does most jobs like bus boy, gas station attendant, 7 -11 employee, blah, blah, blah.

[160] I'm always reminded and shocked when I returned to Detroit, the whole city's being run by teenagers.

[161] No one wants the total gas station shift after 5 p .m. So you'll go in there at 2 in the morning, there's a 16 -year -old running it.

[162] Or I'll go to Dairy Queen and there's like three 13 -year -olds running the whole thing.

[163] And then, of course, the grocery baggers are 12 and 13 -year -olds.

[164] I think a lot of people don't have that experience if they live on either coast, maybe, that teenagers are running tons of businesses around the country when there's not a cheap immigrant labor pool.

[165] One of the things we think about, it's not just Jonathan Haidt that started Let Grow With Me, it's also a man named Peter Gray.

[166] He's studied the importance of free play in childhood.

[167] But he also is a psychology professor.

[168] And he talks about how kids today, especially teenagers, are often depressed and anxious.

[169] And you've probably seen it.

[170] You guys are both nodding in unison.

[171] I know the audience can't see it.

[172] But they have love sex, too.

[173] Well, that's at least something that they can do that's grown up.

[174] But everything else that's grown up is not there for them.

[175] they can't have responsibility.

[176] They can't drive.

[177] They're not expected to do most things other than to be students often.

[178] And that's pretty demoralizing when you feel like you're just feeling your oats and you're ready to take on the world and you're told, I have to sign your reading log still.

[179] I mean, how could you possibly feel empowered when you literally aren't?

[180] Because you can't earn money and you can't get around and your parents don't want you going out by yourselves and the malls don't want you in the malls.

[181] And pretty soon you're just stuck doing your homework and going online.

[182] that's the demoralizing experience.

[183] I was wondering, and how did this transition happen?

[184] Because my parents are incredibly fearful.

[185] And I had a job when I was 14.

[186] If they had kids now, they would act so differently.

[187] So it's clearly societal because they themselves are fearful.

[188] Yes, yes.

[189] It really is societal.

[190] So people always think that Lenore is the anti -Helicopter parenting person.

[191] And first of all, I'm part helicopter, like on my mom's side.

[192] But I don't blame parents because, like you're saying, if they were parents to you and you were seven now, instead of whatever age you are, they would be wondering, oh, I don't know if I can let her walk to school, and I'm just going to sit here while she plays to make sure that nothing bad happens.

[193] So gradually, society started thinking of all kids is in danger all the time.

[194] That's like the shorthand, for what I can say.

[195] It's like we've come to believe that kids can't do anything on their own safely or successfully.

[196] So there always has to be an adult there to make sure they don't hurt themselves, to make sure that they get the most out of it, to be the teachable moment.

[197] And the best example I can give of why I don't blame parents, but I do blame parents, which is Parents Magazine, is an example from Parents Magazine, which is that they had this article a couple of years ago on how to throw the perfect play date, which is already where we are as a society, right?

[198] Already problematic, yeah.

[199] Already problematic.

[200] You're an anthropologist.

[201] Here's an artifact from a culture that says that parents need help doing something as basic and something that actually parents didn't used to do.

[202] It was kids who would go outside and find their friends or call them up or go to their house, right?

[203] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[204] You were instigating all that.

[205] Right.

[206] So now it's organized by the parents.

[207] And the question that a reader asked Parents Magazine was, my kid is old enough to stay home alone by herself and often does when I run an errand.

[208] But now she's got a play date over.

[209] Can I still go to the dry cleaner?

[210] And what did Parents Magazine say?

[211] Well, I would be cheating because I've watched a lot of your interviews.

[212] So I'm going to stay quiet.

[213] No, no, no, no, no. All right.

[214] So I'll deal with Monica.

[215] Monica, what would what the parents' magazine say?

[216] Said, no, that's so irresponsible.

[217] Why?

[218] What could happen if the parent isn't there?

[219] Drowning, choking, cutting each other's hair too short.

[220] Ooh, that's a very creative, right?

[221] That sounds like it might have happened.

[222] Oh, it's much more inane than that, right?

[223] It is.

[224] Well, first of all, they came up with the kids could get hurt physically, like you're saying.

[225] You know, they gave an example of some kid who once put some.

[226] macaroni and a microwave, and when she took it out, it was too hot and it fell on her, and she had to go to the doctor.

[227] And they were so desperate to find an example of a kid being physically hurt that the example they gave was while the mom was still home.

[228] But in this case, the mom had been in the backyard.

[229] So already, you're hearing that it's not even safe to be in the backyard when your kid is doing anything.

[230] Can I just also add to you what you're saying, that the notion that among two kids, that neither one could dial 911, I mean, what is the parent going to do?

[231] We're acting like all parents are paramedics or first responders or ER doctors.

[232] Like, we'd do the same thing to 12 -year -old.

[233] Pick up the phone, call 911, and have help arrive.

[234] Right, and everybody's got a phone.

[235] I think the implication there was that you would have put the macaroni and cheese in the microwave.

[236] You would have taken it out.

[237] You would have blown on it until it was the exact right temperature.

[238] Or use one of those spoons, if you've seen those baby spoons that turned a different color when the food is too hot because you couldn't possibly figure it out on your own.

[239] Yeah, yeah, red means hot.

[240] No kidding.

[241] So, A, they could hurt themselves physically, but then the magazine also said, and what if there's a spat?

[242] You want to be able to jump in before anyone's feelings get too hurt.

[243] And to me, that's the rosetta stone of this culture that we're talking about because it's implying a couple things.

[244] One is that a spat is unusual or terrible.

[245] Two, is that your kid getting hurt is something that should never happen.

[246] Three, you should always be intervening.

[247] And four, what if they do get hurt?

[248] What is the implication?

[249] The implication is that they will be so hurt or so traumatized or this will be such a terrible experience that you will have failed as a parent because who knows how that's going to affect them later on.

[250] You should be making sure that their life is a smoothie, you know, nice and cool and no chunks and kind of healthy and kind of yucky.

[251] I'm not a smoothie fan.

[252] Otherwise, your kid is going to be damaged and it's all your fault.

[253] So when you're asking how come your parents, Monica, would be scared today?

[254] it's because the Bible of the parenting world, and we don't even have our grandparents around to tell us things.

[255] We're living in, you know, little atomized homes with the nuclear family.

[256] So you're looking to the experts to tell you what to do, and they're giving you this advice that I think they pull out of wherever that just says, don't let anything happen, never.

[257] And actually, one of the other things in that same article was your daughter's going to have an overnight at a friend's house.

[258] It turns out that the friend's father is divorced.

[259] That's the only guy who's going to be home.

[260] And parents' magazine says, don't do it.

[261] If you have any worries at all, don't let your kids stay over.

[262] And so once again, all the single men, all the single dads are written as they were only held in check by their wives.

[263] And without a wife there, they're going to come and attack the kids.

[264] So it's just this scary world filled with, you know, flaming cheese and hurt feelings and scary parents.

[265] And that's the diet that we've been fed over and over and over again.

[266] And when people ask me, like, would you let your kid play outside or walk to school or whatever?

[267] I say, yeah.

[268] And then often they bring up an example from like law and order, you know, or a terrible case that happened 20, 30, 40 years ago.

[269] And why aren't you thinking about that first?

[270] And it's considered a mark of good parenting and kindness to be going to that worst case scenario first.

[271] Okay.

[272] I thought of 10 trillion things I want to ask you.

[273] One is there must be corollary between the time invested as we've evolved societally.

[274] towards less children, more concentrated effort in more capital being spent on each child, those must correlate nicely, but is that causality?

[275] You know, I don't think that's a question we can actually determine.

[276] I don't think the parents cared less when they had more kids.

[277] Back when child mortality was much higher, I'm sure they were more resigned to that horrible fact of life, but I don't think they mourned less.

[278] You know, when you have a few kids, what you have is a lot of resources.

[279] And I feel like that's the correlation that I think I can make, which is that if you have two people working and maybe one or two kids, that's a lot more money per kid that you can spend than if you had a dad working and six kids.

[280] And so the marketplace knows where dollars are and dollars are out there to be spent on kids to make sure that they're safe.

[281] You know, if you can scare a parent about something happening to them, I mean, there is one thing, I hate using the name, so I'll try to come up with a fake name.

[282] Let's call it the gopher.

[283] Okay.

[284] There's a little device called the gopher, which it really isn't called.

[285] It's an electronic sock that you put on your baby when they come home healthy and everything fine from the hospital.

[286] And it measures their pulse, their temperature, their movement level and their blood oxygen level.

[287] Okay.

[288] Okay.

[289] I'm going to ask you guys, what's your blood oxygen level?

[290] Okay.

[291] I hope above 97, I guess.

[292] Oh, God, you know, because you're a mister like health.

[293] Okay.

[294] Let's ask Monica.

[295] Monica, what's your blood oxygen level?

[296] And you can't use his number.

[297] By the way, I only know this.

[298] because of COVID.

[299] I know when you're supposed to go get yourself some oxygen or some help breathing.

[300] I have no idea.

[301] It's really high, though.

[302] That's the other memorable thing about that numbers.

[303] It's like anything below like 94 you're in trouble.

[304] I would think doing anything 94 % efficiently, you're golden, right?

[305] Yeah, that's like still an A, but actually like you're dead by B plus.

[306] Yes, exactly.

[307] When I saw those numbers, I was like, oh, wow, you really got to be perfect at this oxygen level thing.

[308] I had one other quick question along the investment question.

[309] Do you find, variation socioeconomically.

[310] And the thing that immediately popped in my head is I just heard this interesting story about how largely white, affluent parents have pulled their children out of football, but you're seeing still lower income minorities at the same rate because, again, the reward is so great for them in that position that they've determined it's worth that risk.

[311] Wow, I hadn't seen that.

[312] I have no doubt that there are variations of every stripe among different groups of every stripe, But the statistic that most bold me over, I guess, was the New York Times had an article like two years ago, it's not the only paper I read, that it was on the front page, and it was the pain of intensive parenting.

[313] And one of the things it quoted was a study that was done across the economic spectrum, right?

[314] You know, rich to poor, black to white, you name it.

[315] And one of the questions on the survey was, you're making dinner, and your kid wants you to come draw with her.

[316] What do you do?

[317] And across the economic spectrum, the most...

[318] most answered answer was you drop everything and go draw with them because it's so important to support them and show that you care and spend time with them and role model and teachable moment and this and that.

[319] And I thought, you know, a teachable moment is like you draw, you know, I can't wait to see what you draw, but I'm making the spaghetti.

[320] Right.

[321] So this internalized thing, this sort of parents magazine model of what it means to be a good parent is to drop everything you're doing.

[322] And there are other studies that talk about, like, how many more hours parents, especially moms, are putting in today than Monica, your parents did a generation ago to the point where among college educated moms, and I wish I could remember the number for among non -college educated moms.

[323] But college educated moms are spending nine hours more a week than moms were in the 70.

[324] I quote that all the time.

[325] Oh, you do.

[326] Yeah, yeah, I love that.

[327] I just said to this female friend of mine who was kind of feeling guilty, I said, I guarantee you, you're spending.

[328] more time as a working mother with your child than any 50s housewife did.

[329] Just know that.

[330] Understand, you're probably doing much better than you think.

[331] But yeah, this collective guilt and shaming is so toxic.

[332] I'm so happy that you quote that statistic because it sort of has to get out that we're just asking so much of ourselves, particularly of moms.

[333] And first of all, there's something lost to the kids when they are constantly, you know, under surveillance and constantly helped and assisted and supervised.

[334] But Rebecca Tracer wrote this book called All the Single ladies.

[335] And it was about how basically a lot of the social movements throughout American history were spearheaded by women who weren't married because they didn't have the husband and they didn't have the kids.

[336] They didn't have the kids that they had to take care of.

[337] And the part that struck me is so interesting is that she said that once the industrial revolution came along and there were the first labor -saving devices ever for like, you know, a washing machine, you know, an automatic ringer or something like that or maybe a vacuum cleaner, just when it got a little easier.

[338] What happened is all these books started being published about how to make the perfect home.

[339] And one of the things that she quotes is like, there's more to setting the table than you might think, you know, and the idea you have to, you know, how many forks you have to do and don't forget the placements and this and that.

[340] And it just felt coincidental that just when women were getting a little bit of free time and maybe could use that to evolve or work or do anything other than housework, housework became more demanding.

[341] And to me, I've always been a little suspicious that just, we were talking about the 70s, you know, that's just when women were starting to come into the workplace.

[342] As women have gotten further and further along, and we're the majority of people in college now, and we're doing better than ever, suddenly the demands of parenting are outrageous.

[343] You better sit through every soccer practice, and if you have three kids, well, you better make sure that they have it on alternating days or else go from four in the afternoon to nine at night and watch each of them because it's so important that you're there for everything.

[344] It's like, isn't it a little odd that suddenly we're expected to do so much more just when we were getting ahead?

[345] So I have this weird kind of, and I wonder what your opinion of it is.

[346] So I'm raising two daughters.

[347] And so there is a little compass in my head, right, where I go, I'm basically establishing a relationship that they might try to replicate later down the road with a significant other.

[348] And so if what I'm setting up for them is that I will be endlessly enthralled with whatever they do, and then I will want to just stare at them while they doodle, and X, Y, and Z, I'm setting up an expectation for them.

[349] And I'm just being, I think, realistic about what's in the marketplace for them.

[350] There's no dude out there that's ever going to stare at them knitting and be thrilled.

[351] Oh, you're ready for another row.

[352] Let's see how it goes.

[353] Yeah, I don't want to mislead them into thinking there'll be another man. man out there or woman that's going to be this excited about every little thing they do.

[354] I think it would be false advertising and misleading.

[355] And I think I'm setting them up to be completely and wholly unsatisfied in any relationship because the relationship should just be the other person's a spectator while you do whatever and then that person cheers.

[356] So when I'm trying to figure out what I should do, I'll go, well, would I do this in a relationship?

[357] And I'm like, never.

[358] I would never indulge my wife like this.

[359] What do you think about that as a barometer?

[360] I think that's really interesting.

[361] I had a friend who once pointed out that we keep talking about parenting, parenting, parenting, but we never talk about wifing or husbanding.

[362] And maybe we should be thinking about our parenting in terms of what does it mean just in terms of a normal relationship.

[363] Do you have to high -five everything that they do?

[364] Do you have to give a gold star?

[365] You know, do you have to comment on everything?

[366] I was just talking to some genius in the parenting world, forgive me genius.

[367] I can't remember who you were.

[368] Who was saying one of the things that driving kids crazy today is the fact that we ask, them questions all the time.

[369] Oh, are you drawing now?

[370] Is that a cat?

[371] Are you going to use yellow?

[372] I love that.

[373] Yellow.

[374] Is that the same color as the sun?

[375] And the kids are like, can you let me draw?

[376] You know, it's yellow because it's the only crayon I have.

[377] And there's something where I feel like, once again, I don't blame parents because this is some model that came from somewhere that we are all doing that we think is showing the kids that we're paying attention, that we love what they're doing.

[378] that we care.

[379] And what a strange idea that they wouldn't think that we cared or loved them unless there was a constant stream of interacting and fit cheer and fascination with the yellow crayon, which none of us really feel?

[380] Yeah, I agree with you.

[381] And then you're also, it's very interesting because they're much smarter than you are ever giving them credit for.

[382] So they are at some point going to detect, well, no one gives a shit about what color someone.

[383] So implicit in it is like, oh, well, that was kind of fake.

[384] So part of a relationship.

[385] or part of interacting is kind of a lie.

[386] Yeah.

[387] Honey, you look great.

[388] Honey, you look great.

[389] Yes, so I only have a few rules, and personally for me, which is I don't laugh at my kids unless they were legitimately funny.

[390] I think it's because I'm a comedian and I'm like, I don't want to mislead them.

[391] I don't want them to think they've got a material.

[392] Yeah, when you're funny, I'll laugh.

[393] I'm not going to just placate you because how on earth are you going to learn to be funny if I'm laughing at every shitty joke you have, you know?

[394] I'm not mean.

[395] I just, you get a laugh when you did something funny.

[396] You're just a soft audience.

[397] Yeah.

[398] Yeah, I don't know.

[399] But I I do want to say it's all beautiful, right?

[400] At the bottom of all this is we all want so desperately to do the best job we can.

[401] And it's very sweet of us.

[402] I don't think you or I are casting a judgment to anyone who's listening right now going, shit, I just said green.

[403] What a beautiful green.

[404] I think it's the most beautifully inspired thing.

[405] It's just you got to question what is most effective for turning out an independent autonomous adult who can self -regulate and control.

[406] Yeah, really.

[407] And be perfect at everything they do and have.

[408] fantastic relationships and never be disappointed.

[409] Let's just say here now that we can't do it.

[410] First of all, like I was just saying, like parenting, the idea that you can create this perfect creature by doing everything right and by not saying, I see you're using yellow, but on the other hand, also letting them know that you approve and, you know, not praising them too much, but giving them enough attention, but not so much attention that they get a big hat or so little attention that they, you know, hitchhike at four to go to your uncle's house.

[411] So there's no right way to do it.

[412] And I feel like we are in this extraordinarily judgmental time.

[413] And I hope I don't sound like that too, because the whole idea is that none of us know exactly what to do.

[414] All I can tell you is that society, this culture has made us extremely conscious of everything that we could be doing wrong and extremely fearful that somehow our kids aren't safe, which has led to this overprotection.

[415] And I'm just trying to pull back a second and say, you know, our kids are going to be mostly okay.

[416] and when they're not okay, it's fate or luck.

[417] And I talk to, I don't know, if you want me to go on this whole sidebar on religion.

[418] Oh, I love talking about religion.

[419] Go ahead.

[420] I know, the anthro major.

[421] Yes, I see, I'm raging.

[422] All right, so let me lay this on you.

[423] It's not that religion doesn't exist today.

[424] Obviously, it does.

[425] But it actually, this is the theory of Alan Levinovitz, who's a professor of religion at James Madison.

[426] He says that religion still influences our lives and our decisions, but an ever shrinking sphere.

[427] So it used to be religion would decide what you were with.

[428] and what you were saying and what you were reading and how you were raising your kids and what you were eating.

[429] I mean, it was like it covered everything.

[430] And now gradually it's sort of just our spiritual life for many of us.

[431] And so that left this whole swath of life's decisions to us.

[432] And so we don't actually know what we're supposed to do.

[433] Nobody knows exactly what they're supposed to do as a parent.

[434] So we read all these magazines and we listen to the experts and we read the studies.

[435] And in a way, science has taken the place of the religion.

[436] Oh, I just read that you can't possibly use a plastic cup it'll give them this or you can't possibly let their lunch heat up too much they'll get bacteria or whatever everything is a study and you're whipsawed because the studies come out and you have to do this and you have to do that and the worst part about it is that if you think that there's god's plan right or somebody is watching over you or fate is fickle then if something bad happens it's like it wasn't on you right right it was god's plan and we don't always understand God's plan.

[437] Right.

[438] And so there's some sympathy, right?

[439] It's like there, but for the grace of God, literally, go I. Right?

[440] I mean, it's not just an expression.

[441] But if it's all on you, then if something happens, it's immediately, well, she wasn't paying enough attention or she, you know, it's all her fault.

[442] And the other thing that this professor said is that religions are smart enough to say that perfection is just not possible in this existence, right?

[443] So it's karma, we'll come back later.

[444] It's heaven or hell.

[445] It's judgment day.

[446] But if you think that perfection is yours to create here on Earth, well, you are stuck trying to make every birthday the best birthday, trying to make every soccer game a winning game, which is why everybody's getting the trophy.

[447] Every car ride, you had a good talk and you really got someplace, and every song you sang along with because that's the kind of family you are.

[448] Every day is Disney World.

[449] It's impossible.

[450] And yet that's what you're supposed to feel.

[451] And you worry that if anything goes wrong, you won't have the support of your fellow humans because, it will just be judgment.

[452] Well, and there's nothing I have found.

[453] There is no topic that is dicier to get involved with than parenting with other parents because we all immediately feel judged.

[454] And I think one thing that's really relevant to recognize, which we've talked about before in here, is your children are an extension of your own ego.

[455] And it's really, really important, I think, to monitor that.

[456] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[457] We've all been there, turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[458] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[459] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[460] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[461] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[462] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[463] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[464] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[465] What's up, guys?

[466] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of Entertainment's Best and brightest, okay?

[467] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[468] And I don't mean just friends.

[469] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[470] The list goes on.

[471] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[472] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[473] I can tell you an experience I had where I caught myself.

[474] I took my daughter on a press trip and I had to go to Miami and Philadelphia and blah, blah, and she was three and I was doing it all on my own.

[475] I didn't have anyone with me. It was just her and I, but I to do interviews sporadically throughout that period.

[476] And I found that when I took her to, you know, a news station or whatever, that because people were excited that I'm there, because I'm on TV, they were then very excited that she was there, right?

[477] So she was getting an amount of attention that is just abnormal for a child to get, right?

[478] And so her response to it was to talk and baby talk.

[479] And for the first two days of the trip, I, I didn't realize it at the time, I was personally embarrassed that people thought my three -year -old spoke baby talk, right?

[480] Wow.

[481] So I'd be telling her like, Unuse your normal voice or baby answer in the, I kept trying to encourage her to speak normally.

[482] And then all of a sudden it occurred to me on like day two of this trip.

[483] I'm like, oh, this is my ego.

[484] I'm embarrassed that my kid who represents me speaks baby talk.

[485] And I'm afraid all these people think that I've not taught my child how to talk.

[486] And then I was like, oh, that's all my baggage.

[487] This is a mechanism she's created to help her deal with this abnormal situation.

[488] This works for her.

[489] And I just stayed out of it.

[490] But it was really hard.

[491] And I recognized that that's how frail my ego was.

[492] It's hard not to feel frail when it's your kids.

[493] And especially if it's not just a question of being embarrassed for your kids.

[494] If you're worried for your kids or sad for your kids, it is, you know, it's impossible not to feel bad.

[495] Let's just put it out there.

[496] Yeah, yeah.

[497] It's really hard.

[498] I'm wondering, could you walk us through?

[499] I mean, I thought of a couple, but like, let's just first acknowledge the historic role of children, right?

[500] I personally grew up in the Midwest, so I detasseled.

[501] corn at 12 in the summers.

[502] And I remember maybe eight years ago seeing a 60 Minutes piece about how we need to get these agricultural laws to not include children.

[503] And the way it was presented, and I love 60 minutes.

[504] I was like, oh, if I had not had the experience where I detasseled corn and wanted to, and it was a right of passage in my family and I earned a bunch of money I could never earn at 12.

[505] Had I not had that experience, I'd be watching this going, what the fuck?

[506] We still have child labor.

[507] Right.

[508] You're marching with a sign, you know, and detasseling now.

[509] And detasseling now.

[510] And detasseling for 12 -year -olds, right.

[511] I was just kind of shocked with that.

[512] I just luckily had an experience with it where I was like, oh, I can't really trust that.

[513] But, you know, historically, right, children have held jobs.

[514] They've raised children.

[515] They were responsible for a ton, right?

[516] They were an asset.

[517] You know, there's the expression now that they are economically worthless and emotionally worth a ton.

[518] But, of course, you would have a lot of kids.

[519] First of all, the other thing that's different now is that we choose to have the kids, right?

[520] It used to be the kids came along.

[521] You got married or worse for the woman.

[522] You weren't married.

[523] And along came a kid.

[524] and it's not like you were saying, this is a stage of my life and I want to have somebody I can share it with and teach, and it was just, along came the kids.

[525] And so that was maybe one of the reasons that we weren't so obsessed with parenting because it was inevitable.

[526] It wasn't this, the life choice, I certainly chose to have my kids.

[527] So they were valuable.

[528] And as we were discussing earlier, it's not that you wouldn't care if they wouldn't die, but it would have a lot of them and a lot of them wouldn't make it.

[529] I was reading Uncle Tom's Cabin, finally, last summer.

[530] And one of the characters, There's a runaway mom with her child who's like three or four years old, and she ends up in a Quaker's house.

[531] And the Quaker mom goes and opens the drawer.

[532] And Harriet Beatrice Stowe says, the drawer that all of us have, the drawer of the clothing of the child who died at a certain age.

[533] And this mom, the Quaker mom, gives the clothing to the runaway slave for her three or four year old.

[534] But reading that phrase, it's like, I didn't realize everybody has a drawer like that 100 or 200 years ago because you knew you were going to experience the worst thing.

[535] And maybe that's what steeled people a little more.

[536] Not that it didn't hurt as much, but that we were all going to go through this.

[537] And if you want to be a parent or you are a parent, you're in for devastation.

[538] And now we hope that we're not in for devastation.

[539] I sure hope none of us are in for devastation.

[540] I hope none of your listeners are in for devastation.

[541] But some of us are.

[542] And now that just seems weird.

[543] And it must have been your fault because the rest of us are not devastated.

[544] Yeah, I think Abraham Lincoln, right?

[545] I know for sure they were dealing with the death of one child, but I think there'd be even a second, right?

[546] Three out of four.

[547] Three out of four did not make it to adulthood.

[548] And nobody said, wow, what a bad dad.

[549] Did you see what Abe is doing?

[550] Oh, my God.

[551] Well, and I'll count myself in this group.

[552] I don't think a modern parent could hold a job having lost three of four children.

[553] I couldn't go to work.

[554] I mean, that's how much it's evolved, right?

[555] There's no way it could be running a war.

[556] Right.

[557] I don't know if they were all dead by the time he was running the war.

[558] But that changes your level of investment, right?

[559] So if you know that they might not make it or they they're there to de -tassel corn or whatever, you're maybe not thinking, well, I should ask a lot of questions when they're three so that their brains start.

[560] Like, I think a lot of this has to do with science on cognitive ability.

[561] Like, I think the reason there's all these questions and you've got to be interacting and stuff is because parents feel like that's going to develop their brain.

[562] And I think there is science on that, although I am just saying that.

[563] I don't know that for sure.

[564] But I feel like they think, like, if you ask, why'd you pick yellow?

[565] It'll make them.

[566] them start thinking, oh, why did I pick yellow?

[567] And then that will grow their cognitive ability.

[568] So I do think it's investment.

[569] It's like I'm going to do everything I can now so that they can have the best future possible, even more than just danger.

[570] I think that's the intention.

[571] And then the question is what's the outcome, which now there seems to be a lot of data in on the outcome of that, which you know a lot about, right?

[572] I do.

[573] And once again, I want to preface this by saying, like, now it's going to sound like this was the right way and this is the wrong way.

[574] And once again, there isn't a right way or wrong way.

[575] I'm just trying to dial back a little bit of the anxiety.

[576] And that doesn't mean that I'm not an anxious parent myself about exactly the right way to do it.

[577] And Monica, I think you're talking about there was some study that said kids in affluent households here, three million more words by the time they're out of diapers and then less fortunate kids.

[578] And that's how they get ahead.

[579] And so that it became this, oh, my God, I was talking to a lady who ran a daycare center in, Oregon, Washington, and she got demerits for some things that the daycare center had.

[580] And this is the idea that you can be perfect, and there's a recipe.

[581] And one of the reasons she got demerits is because sometimes when her daycare workers were changing the kids' diapers, they weren't monologing it as they did it.

[582] See, I'm taking off your diaper.

[583] Now I'm taking the tape.

[584] The tape makes a sound, and the other piece of tape makes the sound, they sound the same because it's two sides of the same diaper, which side?

[585] the right side, right begins with R, and the left side left begins with L, La, La, L, L, L, L, L, L, you know?

[586] And I thought, what could drive a human being crazier?

[587] I mean, whether the kid is being driven crazy or the poor daycare worker who has to be a midnight DJ talking, you know, filling the dead air with a two -month -old the entire time.

[588] And this gets back to the whole idea that, first of all, we're using science instead of any kind of intuition in terms of how we could be raising our kid and that there is a perfect way to raise the kid.

[589] and then what I really see happening is that we just don't have any trust in anything except ourselves.

[590] Like we don't trust that the kid would be curious on their own or that the kid is absorbed and maybe that's good enough.

[591] Or if the kid is playing with her friend and they have this squabble that they can figure it out.

[592] Or if she does come home in tears that the next day she can go back with her friend and they can be playing tag again.

[593] It's like nothing happens successfully.

[594] Nothing happens at a high enough level unless we're there.

[595] And You know, I told you, Peter Gray is one of the co -founders of Let Grow.

[596] And he talks about the importance of play.

[597] And when kids are playing and adults are organizing it, they're always, they're cut into the chase.

[598] Like, let's get to the play part already, you know?

[599] And my friend had his son at a playground, his 10 -year -old son.

[600] And it was two hours.

[601] And the dad said, okay, come on, let's go home.

[602] It's been two hours.

[603] And the kids said, Dad, dad, no, we're just about to start a war.

[604] So two hours had been spent in angry negotiations between that's not fair.

[605] and that's too far and your team is better and how come I don't get to wear the green shirt or whatever it is.

[606] And if there was an adult there making it a perfect experience, you know, like smoothing it out and getting to the fun already so that you don't waste two hours just angry with your friends and there might be some hurt feelings.

[607] Those two hours were the important part of the play.

[608] Because, you know, you're learning how to get along, compromise.

[609] Negotiating.

[610] Yes.

[611] Fairness.

[612] This isn't working.

[613] Let's vote.

[614] Is this fair?

[615] I mean, like, I really think it's the fundamentals of democracy are learned when you have to make sure that everyone is having a good enough time that they don't all quit and go home.

[616] They oddly mirror the early hunting and gathering societies and that they're kind of egalitarian because they are operating in a realm without status kind of yet.

[617] So if one person's alphaing it and two other people can bond together and overthrow one alpha, like it keeps it very egalitarian, but we're probably inclined to get in there and make it less with good intention.

[618] I think that we just don't give credit, again, to anything that's going on that is just happening between kids unless we see that it's building their vocabulary or making the day super fun or making sure everybody feels okay.

[619] And it's funny you mention the hunter gatherers, because you would with your anthropology degree, but that's what Peter Gray has studied the most.

[620] Other cultures don't even have the word for play because what kids are doing is they're watching somebody make an arrowhead or somebody make a pot and then, you know, maybe they have a little bit of flint next to them and they try to do it.

[621] And play is being engaged in something that's interesting.

[622] And usually what kids want to do is have fun with their friends and also try to become a grownup.

[623] You know, they want to be big.

[624] So as soon as we brought this baby home from the hospital, you're naturally, you have some anxiety about keeping this little subway sandwich healthy.

[625] So I can't tell you how many times in my head I replayed this film we watched while studying Papua New Guinea.

[626] And I remember even then being shocked with like, the kids were on their own.

[627] And I'm talking there are two -year -olds attempting to climb a tree and there are three -year -olds high in the tree.

[628] And had I not seen that and saw with my own eyes like, oh, no, those kids didn't die at some crazy percentage.

[629] Like, they somehow know how to do that.

[630] And I was just constantly when I was trying to propel myself or steal myself into letting Lincoln climb on shit and fall on stuff, I just like, just remember that video you saw on all those.

[631] Those kids, you know, made it at the same level.

[632] But I just want to say, because I think it would be really helpful for us to kind of maybe dispel some of the things that we fear.

[633] So your list of things, which I love is fighting the belief that our children are in constant danger from creeps, kidnapping, germs, grades, flashers, frustrations, failure, baby snatchers, bugs, bullies, men, sleepovers, and the perils of a non -organic grape, which I think is brilliant.

[634] I just want to start with one again.

[635] I learned it in Anthro, but I had this class on witchcraft.

[636] And the teacher happened to say, how many people do you think have been poisoned by Halloween candy or received a razor blader sharp object?

[637] And now my childhood, that was already happening.

[638] They were setting up, like, scanning at the fire department and a school would host a silly trick -or -treat thing.

[639] And, you know, so we were guessing, I don't know, a thousand, two thousand, blah, blah, blah.

[640] She said there has never, ever, ever once been a case of a stranger putting poison or a sharp object in Halloween candy.

[641] There have been sharp objects and poison put in by parents to injure their own children.

[642] There's never been a stranger that blew my mind.

[643] Do you have other stats like that of like these kind of urban legends we all live in fear of that aren't even real?

[644] Yeah, I do.

[645] But first I want to talk about the poison candy for a second because there was the one case and it was a father in Texas who had taken out three, not one, not two, but three insurance policies on his son.

[646] And he put strict nine in a pixie stick and sure enough, the kid died.

[647] this was quickly discovered because nobody else is dying from poison candy.

[648] But what's interesting to me is he, like you before you read that statistic, must have thought, oh, there's so many kids getting poisoned every Halloween.

[649] You know, what's one more?

[650] You know, just throw it on the pyre.

[651] It's another, oh, little Jimmy.

[652] That's too bad.

[653] He's the one from Texas this year.

[654] So really, he himself had ingested, as it were, this urban myth that the kids were dying right and left from macab neighbors who gave poison to the kids that they said hi to all the rest of the year and then didn't even have the fun of watching them writhe and pain and die because the kids were back home.

[655] That was always my point.

[656] Like who does, who commits a crime they can't witness?

[657] I don't get it.

[658] Right.

[659] It's also, it's not, talk about myths that now that there's all the ingestibles and gummy bears with pot in them that crazy adults are giving these away, it's like, are you kidding?

[660] That's expensive.

[661] There's no, there's no upside to giving this away.

[662] Maybe there just isn't.

[663] I'm trying to think, Would there be an upside knowing that some kid was getting high on a gummy bear someplace far away?

[664] I don't think so.

[665] Unless you witnessed it and then they fell in the bathtub and then they blew, you know, if they did something funny, there was some story, you got cultural capital.

[666] Yes, yes, there's nothing to profit from.

[667] You need the TikTok, you know, and sponsored by The Neighbor, you know.

[668] That's right.

[669] Yeah, other boogeymen, Stranger Danger is a terrible idea.

[670] It's a terrible notion that has colonized our brains.

[671] And I think in part it's because it rhymes.

[672] You know, there's actually studies done that when things rhyme.

[673] They seem more real.

[674] And the vast, vast, vast majority of crimes against kids, and I don't even like thinking about crimes against kids, are perpetrated by people they know.

[675] Right?

[676] So the idea of stranger danger is, first of all, pointing you in the wrong direction.

[677] And secondly, taking away somebody who could help your kid, if, God forbid, you know, your kid is walking down the street and there's that white van, which, by the way, I think white vans must be like 10 % of all cars out there.

[678] Anyway, so the white van is following him really slowly and the guy is saying, I've got a puppy, I've got candy, I've got balloons, at which point, if the kid has been told, don't trust any strangers, he's stuck.

[679] But if he knows that most people are good and he sees somebody across the street and she's getting her mail from her mailbox or he, even a he, because I think most he's are perfectly great too, he's raking the leaves, you run across the street and you stand next to that person and you say there's a creep in this van going by, I'm just going to stand here.

[680] it's on the street and you run into a store and say, I'm going to wait here, or can I use your phone?

[681] And I don't even like the advice that's sometimes given that says, look for a safe stranger.

[682] Because I don't think people turn into unsafe strangers just because a kid says, can I stand here?

[683] Well, you could stand here, but now that I have you, I guess I'll kidnap you.

[684] I mean, it's unusual to think that it would be weird that the guy raking his leaves is going to murder you, you know?

[685] Yeah, he's in cahoots with the gentleman in the white van.

[686] That's right.

[687] Somehow it's like, you know, they've been listening to Lenore.

[688] Right, right, right.

[689] So you freak him out and then he'll come to me and then I'll get the rope.

[690] It's like a crow eight step.

[691] Oh, it is.

[692] Did you say a crow?

[693] Yeah, we're obsessed with how smart crows are.

[694] Oh, my God.

[695] I mean, my husband will bring in the crow box.

[696] What?

[697] What's that?

[698] He made a crow box and trained them with the Cheetos so they start coming to the neighborhood.

[699] What?

[700] First, they could just get the Cheetos easily.

[701] And then there's a little cover over the Cheetos.

[702] box and they have to stand in a certain place and that moves the thing back and they get used to the top moving and then finally they have to there's quarters on the top and they realized like oh I kicked in the quarter and the box opened and there's all the Cheetos and then finally you make them find their own damn quarters and bring the quarter like a vending machine that's my husband's obsession oh my god I want to hang out with your husband's so bad oh my goodness what are the odds of this They're in the millions to one.

[703] So this is the crow box.

[704] That's the top of the part, right?

[705] This is where the Cheetos would go.

[706] Oh, my gosh.

[707] And then there's a top across there and the top would go away.

[708] And then this is an easy place for them to stand.

[709] And then you have to cover the entire ground.

[710] Oh, my God.

[711] This is amazing.

[712] With Cheetos.

[713] So they get used to coming to the Cheetos area.

[714] They think the Cheetos grow there, like your Snickers farm.

[715] And then it turned out that where we're spending our summer, you know, we see a crow like once every eight days.

[716] So it's perhaps not the right place, but yes.

[717] Did he fabricate that whole thing, or is that a kit you can buy?

[718] There's some little parts that you get that are made from a 3D printer, but you had to put it.

[719] I mean, it took him like a week.

[720] Yeah.

[721] We have two crows that seem to be taking up residence at our house, and I love crows.

[722] So Monica and I have been trying to think of what eight -step problem we could do.

[723] That actually benefits us, but it seems like your husband's genius.

[724] He figured out how to get rich.

[725] It's actually not his genius.

[726] It's our neighbor's genius.

[727] So the person you have to have on your podcast next is Josh.

[728] Cline.

[729] Josh Klein, we call our local genius.

[730] Do you know him?

[731] No, no. Okay, Google Josh Klein and Crows.

[732] Oh, we need to meet Josh for sure.

[733] So we're going to earmark that.

[734] We're going to hang with Josh.

[735] Okay, what were we talking about before the crows thing came up?

[736] Is there anything besides crows?

[737] How to raise good, self -reliant, independent crows.

[738] I just remember what we were talking about.

[739] We were talking about boogeymen.

[740] Oh, right.

[741] Yeah, because I did want to own one of my own that in anticipation of talking to you, I agree with you across the board.

[742] But the one thing I thought of is, you know, the numbers for being molested, and again, this is very egocentric in that I was molested, so I have a unique eye for it, right?

[743] So sorry.

[744] Oh, that's okay.

[745] One in five is the least estimate, you know, and then one in four is another one that there's some consensus around, but let's just say 20 to 25 percent.

[746] Let's just say far too many.

[747] Yeah.

[748] Yeah, like a staggering amount, epidemic level.

[749] So that one, in anticipation of talking you, I was like, that one is the one I still am crazy vigilant and probably overly vigilant about.

[750] But I anticipated your retort, and I feel like you'll tell me, yeah, but it's 90 % of that as people you know or trust.

[751] Would that be your response?

[752] It wouldn't be dismissive.

[753] It would be, I would give you a tip that I think is really helpful, if I may. You know, all my information is not right out of my brain.

[754] It's just from talking other people.

[755] Anyways, there's something called the three R's.

[756] And because, yes, the vast majority of crimes against kids, including molestation, will be caused not by a stranger, but by somebody they know, teaching your kids stranger danger is not going to help them as much as teaching them the three hours which are recognize resist and report recognize you teach your kids and supposedly you can start this as early as age three just like you teach kids to stop drop and roll it's not going to make them terrified that you know any second they might catch on fire right it's just good advice so recognize nobody can touch you where your bathing suit covers hon that's it okay resist anybody bothers you you don't have to be nice you can kick run scream pull their hair, hit them, resist, because that really will help you in a lot of cases.

[757] But then maybe the most important one is report.

[758] And by report, I mean, tell your kids that if something happens to them that makes them feel bad or sad, they can talk to you about it.

[759] And even if somebody says, this is our secret, you can tell me and nothing bad will happen to you.

[760] I won't be mad at you.

[761] I won't blame you.

[762] Just tell me. And I'm here to help you.

[763] And there's no secrets except for fun secrets, like there's going to be a party, you know, a surprise party for mom.

[764] Yeah, yeah.

[765] And recognizing, like, a kid will definitely know then this is wrong and resisting is good.

[766] But the reporting idea is so great because it takes away the secrecy that a molester is depending on.

[767] It's his best asset is like, this is our secret.

[768] Don't tell your mom will be mad at you.

[769] You know, I'll kill you if you tell it.

[770] You can always tell me and it'll be okay.

[771] I've stumbled into that.

[772] I've said to them, you know, yes, you should never ever see another adult's genital.

[773] you under any circumstance.

[774] There's no reason for adult to have their penis or their vagina out around you ever.

[775] If it happens, I want you to leave that area, blah, blah, blah.

[776] And then I get to the secrecy part and I go, you know, nobody can kill me. I challenge him.

[777] If they say, I'll kill your dad, if you tell, bring it on.

[778] I can't wait.

[779] Like, I'm trying to tell them like, it can't happen.

[780] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[781] Please send them my way.

[782] Right.

[783] Yeah, but you're right.

[784] You're not always going to be there and to not give them the tools to navigate the situation seems like probably the most vulnerable you could make your kid.

[785] It's not only that you're not always going to be there, it's that you want them to have this power, right?

[786] And you would feel less terrified if you've empowered them this way because you've given them a very practical roadmap for how to stay safe.

[787] And if, God forbid, that doesn't happen, you're still not going to blame them.

[788] And you're not going to blame yourself because you've been doing what you can.

[789] I mean, the other thing is that parents are so afraid that something bad will happen to their kids, that they're with their kids all the time.

[790] You sort of have to recognize that most of the time they're going to be okay, and you're going to equip them to rise to certain occasions.

[791] Obviously, I'm not blaming anybody forever being molested.

[792] And I think it's also relevant to bring up so that people have it as a control in their head, which is the chemicals in your body for fear are stronger.

[793] They're stronger chemicals than the reward chemicals, right?

[794] Cortisol and adrenaline.

[795] So that is something everyone should be aware of, like, oh, I'm having kind of an outsized reaction to this, and that's by design so I don't get eaten by a lion or eat poisonous berries, right?

[796] You must run everything through like this little reduction model where you're like, okay, I'm very fearful of this.

[797] It's probably worst case scenario, half as bad as I'm fearful it is, just minimally probably.

[798] How do you help parents work through that?

[799] First of all, you're totally right about the different chemicals.

[800] and also not only does risk loom larger than reward, but we also have very little sense of how we will be able to recover from anything bad ever happening.

[801] We assume that we never will, and actually we're more resilient than that.

[802] And so our kids, which is why, going back to that parents' magazine example, if your kid has a spat with a friend, that's not the end of her relationships with the world or even with that friend, she's going to recover.

[803] But we don't realize that, really.

[804] The fear and the anticipation of misery could be far bigger than, what the actual case is.

[805] But in terms of poisonous berries and a lion, that's interesting to me because until we had photography, until the modern era, the only dangers that we were exposed to were real dangers in our neighborhood, you know, an immediate threat.

[806] That bush, don't eat from that bush.

[807] I saw, you know, Harriet from that bush, and he is no more.

[808] And lion, climb the tree.

[809] Lions can't climb trees, right?

[810] The females can't.

[811] The leopards take their prey up there because the lions can't.

[812] But the point being that until very recently, all the dangers that we were warned about or that imprinted themselves on our brain as terribly scary were local threats that could very well happen to us.

[813] Yeah.

[814] Now, you know, you're seeing the worst stories from around the country every day, you know, a horrible story that happened in Florida and you're watching it in California, a horrible story from 30 years ago, but now there's a mini -series about it.

[815] And so it's back on your screen.

[816] Yeah, there's a frequency distortion.

[817] Right?

[818] Even I succumbed to it.

[819] Like I heard some guy rescued his three -year -old from a mountain lion in Northern California.

[820] And I'm literally like, yeah, I got to have my plan of defense because there are mountain lions where we live.

[821] Of course, this is like one attack in probably 40 years on a child and the child didn't die.

[822] But yet, to your point, you're not ever learning the rule.

[823] The news doesn't come on and go 99 .99999 of people didn't die today.

[824] Right.

[825] That's not the headline, right?

[826] It's the exception to the rule that makes headlines.

[827] And it's misleading.

[828] It's very misleading.

[829] And the backstory for me, as you know, is that I let my nine -year -old ride the subway alone.

[830] And afterwards, people would say to me, like, don't you watch law and order?

[831] It's really relevant.

[832] Yeah, just so in order of events, your nine -year -old had expressed some interest in doing this, and you talked it over with their husband.

[833] And you guys live in New York, and you let them ride the subway.

[834] And then about a month and a half had gone by.

[835] And then in that time, it had come up between parents or whoever else and people were shocked to the point where you thought, oh, I'm going to write an article about it.

[836] So then you wrote an article five or six weeks later.

[837] Then it became a big stirer, right?

[838] Right.

[839] I mean, nobody, my friends didn't really care.

[840] But, yeah, nine -year -old, very interested in public transportation.

[841] That's what we're on all the time because we live in New York City.

[842] Has an older brother who's 11 who didn't ask to take the subway at age 9.

[843] Now he calls himself the control group.

[844] He's snarky.

[845] Anyway, so, yeah, the 9 -year -old was pastoring, I would say, you know, this is something I'm ready for.

[846] He never said it in those words.

[847] Nobody talks that way when they're 9.

[848] But he said, you know, I want to do it, can I do it?

[849] And one sunny Sunday, I took him to a department store and a nice part of town, New York City, and let him take subway home to us.

[850] And in the aftermath of that, after I wrote the column about it and was on a lot of talk shows, people would reference things like, well, what about the horrible story of there was this kid, I don't even want to talk about it, but there was a kid who was stolen from a bus stop in 1979.

[851] And this was 2000 and something.

[852] And because what you're talking about, you know, how your brain finds stories, it's the availability.

[853] heuristic.

[854] I'm sure you've heard of that.

[855] It's how easily available a story is to your brain and how vivid it is because there's pictures or there's videos that go along with it in your brain makes you think it's more frequent, right?

[856] Your brain isn't going like, well, that was 79.

[857] I wonder how many children have been born since then, which I actually have done the statistics, and it's 180 million children, thank you, since then.

[858] So you can't imagine 180 million kids waiting at a bus stop.

[859] You can only imagine the one kid whose story you know, And so that becomes your guiding principle.

[860] Like, well, I don't want my kid to be like that.

[861] It's like the extreme odds are that that won't happen.

[862] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[863] Will you run Monica through the question of if you were to leave your child unattended outside?

[864] Oh, sure, my favorite stat.

[865] Monica, if for some reason you wanted your theoretical child to be kidnapped by a stranger, How long would you have to keep, let's call it a her.

[866] Okay.

[867] How long would you have to keep her outside unattended for this to be statistically likely to happen?

[868] How long would you have to keep the kid outside without you watching over her?

[869] For her to get kidnapped.

[870] Right.

[871] Five years.

[872] First of all, I got to say, I love you for that because so many people say five minutes.

[873] Well, I'm also aware that I'm going to get trapped.

[874] Way to own your bias.

[875] Dax, would you like to give the actual number?

[876] Well, I was hoping you'd ask me. Well, this is because I'm devious.

[877] I was wondering if you were going to ask me this.

[878] And I already knew the answer.

[879] And I was going to go, man, a lot.

[880] Like, I guess say like 600 ,000.

[881] I was going to come close.

[882] It's 600 ,000.

[883] No, it's 700 ,000.

[884] 750 ,000 years.

[885] But I was going to guess 600 ,000.

[886] So, Jamaica, look like the gears were really going.

[887] And it said, let's see.

[888] Well, we know that it's only five kids a year.

[889] And it's like, yeah.

[890] So, wow.

[891] That's insane.

[892] Because it's like how many Power Bowl tickets would you have to buy to be statistically likely to win at Powerball.

[893] But the thing about playing the lottery and the thing about worrying about kids is that we go to, you know, we know the picture of the person with the giant check.

[894] And we know the picture of the missing kids.

[895] And it's very hard to square that with reality.

[896] And I remember long ago, somebody wrote to the blog and said, I don't care if the odds are one in a billion.

[897] That's not a risk I'm going to take.

[898] And that is upsetting to me because, first of all, odds of one and a billion aren't odds.

[899] I mean, if it's a billion to one, it's just incredibly unlikely that you will be the one.

[900] And then there's the assumption that there's an opposite side.

[901] Like, I will take zero risk.

[902] And like, there's nothing that's zero risk.

[903] You know, unless they're living in a house that's carpeted and one floor and all the food is put through a food processor before your kid drinks it and you're making sure that the straw has a, I don't know, a cushioned tip.

[904] and there's no allergens and there's no stairs to fall down and there's risk in everyday life but it's very minimal and somehow when it's a risk with you sitting there it's not considered a risk but it's a risk and you're not there we're back to this God thing why weren't you watching over it's all your fault so no matter how much you can't predict something bad happening if it happens when you're with the kid you get a pass and if it doesn't if you're not there you're evil you're so right you know this I think is very consistent with just human thinking in general, which is highly flawed, the thing I always spiral about is if avoiding death is the apex of our concern, which I would argue it should be, avoiding death, the notion that we would prioritize three trillion dollars of our resources to fight terrorism, which is something that will kill one in, I don't know what it is, two million people versus how many people will certainly die of cancer or heart disease.

[905] It's such a staggering difference that you have to immediately go like, wow, so I guess the way in which we die is heavily biased.

[906] Or our fear of how we're going to die.

[907] Yeah, it's a cognitive hiccup.

[908] It's one that needs to be recognized.

[909] It's not rooted in anything sane.

[910] So when you're pursuing the protecting them from a one and billion odds, what most certainly is happening is that time you're not preparing them for the thing that is of 40 % odds of that happening to them, right?

[911] We were talking about that earlier when we were talking about stranger danger versus teaching them the three R's.

[912] Three R's, you're preparing for something that is statistically far more likely than a stranger kidnapping your kid off the street.

[913] Yeah.

[914] It's usually what we're afraid of is dramatic.

[915] And once again, we're talking about the availability heuristic, which is such a terrible word for how easy it is to picture.

[916] How many times did you see the Twin Towers falling?

[917] I mean, and each time your brain actually registers that as another time, you know, it rationally knows that those two towers were the only two.

[918] There weren't thousands of them.

[919] but you've seen it so much, and it's so easy to think of, and you get so angry, and there's someone to blame versus heart disease, you know, and heart disease is long time from now, and it's gradual, and you can't picture all those people, and the times didn't put their pictures on the front page, and those we have lost.

[920] So we really get this very skewed picture, and what we've gotten a really skewed picture of lately is that our kids are in danger whenever they're at the bus stop, whenever they're walking to school, whenever they're at the park.

[921] And so that has changed childhood to the point where there always has to be somebody with them.

[922] And if you ask about what are the other facts of this, what are the unintended consequences, then we get back to the idea that kids are kind of depressed and kind of passive and kind of anxious because they haven't realized that they could deal with the mean dog or gotten lost and found their way back or fallen off their bike and had to come home limping.

[923] And if you don't know that you can handle anything because there's always somebody there intervening and helping you, that is a disempowering, distressing demoralizing way to live.

[924] Right.

[925] So I want to make a quick analogy maybe that I find helpful, which is the amount of fear and thought and energy put into imagining a kidnapping or a molesting or this or that, right?

[926] None of that thought.

[927] None of that thought goes into, how am I going to drive the car today to school?

[928] Now, driving the car to school today will be the most dangerous thing your kid does in probably its entire childhood.

[929] And no one, no one lives in fear of driving their car.

[930] So the question is why, and I believe the answer is, because it's a necessity.

[931] They've gone, you know what?

[932] Well, whatever that statistic is, I got to fucking drive my kid to school, right?

[933] So once it becomes, I have to, I think you right -size the fear of the outcome.

[934] You're shaking your head, no. I'm shaking my head.

[935] I'm interested in that.

[936] First of all, often it's not a necessity.

[937] Often people are living so close to the school that the kid could walk two blocks.

[938] There's a school in Kansas, the superintendent, Moscow, Kansas, got in touch with me. He wanted the kids to start, his students to start doing things on their own because he said from his office in the school in the town of 400, he could see the kids' houses, and yet the parents were driving them to school.

[939] So that's not necessity.

[940] Certainly.

[941] So that's a little misconception.

[942] But why are they worrying about kidnapping and not driving?

[943] And I think it gets back to what we were talking about earlier with the expectations for moms and stuff, is that if your child is kidnapped, it's because you weren't there.

[944] So you get no sympathy.

[945] You should have been there.

[946] Why weren't you there?

[947] It's all your fault.

[948] If you're in a car and you run into a light pole or you're teaboned by a drunk driver, at least you were there.

[949] One thing feels avoidable and one thing feels unavoidable.

[950] As far as like how much guilt you're going to take on in shame.

[951] Right.

[952] But part of the guilt is because were you present or not?

[953] And you're supposed to be so present in your kids' lives that nothing could happen to them.

[954] If something happens in them while you're present, well, at least you were doing what you're supposed to do, right?

[955] So you were with the kid.

[956] It's just too bad that there was a car accident.

[957] but you were doing your job as a mom by not letting your kid walk the two blocks, you know, in Moscow, Kansas to your school.

[958] Yeah, the place I was going to try to end that thought was just simply everyone go, even if they do have to drive to work, okay?

[959] Let's say it's a necessity that they drive to work.

[960] So they're not worried at all about driving to work, but they're very worried about terrorism, right?

[961] And the explanation, I believe, is, well, I have to drive to work.

[962] Once I've decided that it's inevitable, I'll be driving a car.

[963] Worrying about it is a waste of time, because I'm going to have to do it, right?

[964] Your brain recognizes that, that that would be a waste of your fear because you're going to have to do it regardless, whether you want to or not.

[965] Now, I think if we were to recognize the necessity of our kids learning the skills that will help them navigate the world without you, if we saw that as a foregone conclusion, that they have to have these skills, they have to learn to navigate, they have to learn to talk to people, they have to learn to get over heartbreak, bad grades, not getting into here.

[966] If we saw that as inevitable, I think we could build on it in the same way that we build on the relegating our fear of driving to the stratosphere.

[967] I totally love that framing.

[968] So let grow.

[969] We have a slogan.

[970] We have a bunch of slogans.

[971] One of them is when adults step back, kids step up.

[972] But really our tagline or whatever is independence is a critical part of childhood.

[973] We've thrown it out the window because it seems so much less important than being with them all the time, either to say the three million words or to encourage them or to make sure that they're safe.

[974] And independence is this enormous building block of who you become and to ignore it because we're more afraid of the equivalent of terrorists, which is, you know, the kidnapper or a bully or something untoward happening to your kid.

[975] It's like not feeding them.

[976] It's like not giving them air.

[977] I mean, it was always a part of childhood.

[978] Like when you were talking about the hunter -gatherers, the two -year -olds shimmying up the tree trying to follow the three -year -olds, There was always an expectation that kids could do some things on their own.

[979] They were going to get into scrapes.

[980] They were going to have some disappointments and betrayals and frustrations.

[981] And that was to the good, not something horrible happened to them, not a real trauma, but the give and take of learning to get along in the world.

[982] I was going to read you one seventh grade teacher on Long Island did the Let Grow project where kids are sent home to do something on their own.

[983] And that's to push the parents to let them go and do something.

[984] But I wanted to read you what these seventh graders, which are 12, and 13 -year -olds wrote on a little sheet of paper when she asked them, is there anything that you were hesitant to do?

[985] So 12 - and 13 -year -olds.

[986] I wasn't comfortable going into a crowded store with a bunch of strangers without my mom.

[987] I was hesitant to use a sharp knife as my parents had never let me. I was hesitant to try walking my dog alone because I was scared he would get loose from the leash.

[988] I was afraid to climb a tree.

[989] These are different kids.

[990] I was afraid to try doing a wheelie on my bike because I was scared.

[991] I might hurt myself.

[992] I was afraid to try and cook because there's an open flame and I could get hurt.

[993] So these are parents who have kept their kids safe, right?

[994] Safe from they haven't been kidnapped.

[995] They haven't been taken in a terrorist attack.

[996] But to not know how to use a sharp knife must feel pretty damn bad if you're 12 or 13 years old and you're looking at, wow, these adults can use sharp knives, but not me. What I hear in that list is these kids feel so vulnerable.

[997] They're afraid to go into a store.

[998] They're afraid to do this.

[999] And the whole point was safety.

[1000] It's the opposite.

[1001] They feel incredibly vulnerable.

[1002] Well, I think that's the same truth with when you talk.

[1003] about, you know, psychologists use a technique called exposure if you have a phobia of something, you know, like you're afraid of spiders and then they, you know, now you're in the same room as a spider.

[1004] I've been pitching immersion therapy for Monica's snake fear.

[1005] Well, you don't want to hear the details of the immersion therapy.

[1006] But yes, emergent therapy.

[1007] It's pretty bad.

[1008] Anyways, yes.

[1009] So what you've done is you've created kids who are safe, but who don't know that they're safe from anything.

[1010] I mean, they're afraid.

[1011] One kid said he wasn't, this was an affluent, suburban part of Long Island.

[1012] And the The way I describe it is the French bakery is across the street from the olive oil store.

[1013] So, you know, so, but one kid wasn't willing to walk to there because he had to cross over the train tracks.

[1014] And it's like, the idea that you couldn't look both ways and listen, you know, and be aware enough to keep yourself from walking in front of a moving train, which only comes there once an hour, is distressing to me. Because what the parents have done is crippled their kid.

[1015] They have removed like Djanga all.

[1016] the bravery, the curiosity, the courage, the will to try something new.

[1017] And it's this rickety structure that's left that thinks, well, I can't use a knife.

[1018] I could get hurt.

[1019] Why have we done that?

[1020] And you asked at the beginning, how did we get this point?

[1021] You know, we've really been taking all of parents playing upon their fears, whether it's because we want to run an article that will make you buy the magazine, like, you know, these things are going to kill your kids.

[1022] Or you want parents to buy the baby knee pads, which are a real thing, or the thud guards, which you put on your kid when they're learning to toddle.

[1023] Oh, we had a big war at my house.

[1024] I didn't want to order butt pads when they were learning a roller skate.

[1025] I was like, no, no, no. Your butt is a pad.

[1026] It's been designed as a bipedal person to be your pad.

[1027] We don't need an auxiliary pad.

[1028] I didn't actually know about butt pads.

[1029] So this is an informative conversation for me. Well, okay, I have a personal, selfish thing I want your opinion on.

[1030] And this is to persuade my wife.

[1031] I noticed this pattern early on where all of a sudden she enjoyed kicking the soccer ball, right?

[1032] And she wanted to do it with me. the driveway all the time and I loved it and she loved it and we were doing it every night and then all of a sudden it was oh she likes soccer let's we got to sign her up for a soccer team right so we sign her up and then she doesn't enjoy it right for any number of reasons then it becomes this big ethical dilemma of well now we got to teach her you know if she's committed to something she must follow through blah blah then this whole other secondary thing and then she likes gymnastics she's doing cartwheels about we got to get her in gym and i and i've started to favor the opinion of like is it okay to just like the fucking thing and not get an expert involved and not achieve some strata of accomplishment and then accompany it with a trophy?

[1033] Like, don't we turn these things that they like into this really weird architecture of attainment?

[1034] I don't love it.

[1035] What are your thoughts on that?

[1036] I think you just articulated everything that I think.

[1037] The idea that something taught to a child by an expert is better than something that a kid just likes to do and practices and does is false.

[1038] Unless you think your kids are Olympics bound, which I don't.

[1039] One reason that sometimes we put kids in things is because there's no kids left to play with.

[1040] I mean, she wants to play soccer.

[1041] She's either playing with you or nobody because everybody else is in their soccer league.

[1042] But I was re -listening to your interview with I can't remember if it was Jessica Leahy or Jonathan Haidt.

[1043] And one or the other of them was talking about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.

[1044] And what you're talking about with your daughter is that she was in love with the soccer ball and she likes tumbling and she likes doing cartwheels and she's doing them because it's fun and she's practicing because she likes getting better and that's intrinsic and extrinsic is oh it's Thursday at four hon get in the car we got to go get to olympics or whatever gymnastics and then there's somebody saying you know we have to start out with 15 jumping jacks and it becomes a class it becomes something so external and once again peter gray cites a study where they asked kindergartners who were given a day of there was circle time when everybody shared something and there was reading when the teacher read aloud a book and there was finger painting when everybody got to finger paint and there was recess and they asked the kids at the end of the day what was work and what was play and play was recess and everything else was work because an adult said now we're going to be in a circle an adult chose the book and adults decided when it started and when it finished and now you have to finger paint whether you like to finger paint or not so what you're taking is play and you're turning it into, nobody would call it work, but there's an adult there, you're sort of getting grades, you're micromanaged, you know, you're expected to attend.

[1045] They don't have agency anymore.

[1046] Agency only exists on the playground, right?

[1047] Right.

[1048] So to me, you know, some of childhood can remain childhood without it being taught to them.

[1049] And one of the things that's interesting me lately, and I'm going to ask both of you this question, and I don't have a total theory yet, But I feel like if you have enough free time in childhood, you discover something that you like to do that you might still be doing as an adult, if you're lucky, if you get to pursue it.

[1050] Is there something you did as a kid that you still sort of see yourself doing some activity that turned you on?

[1051] I'll let Monica go first.

[1052] Acting I started when I was in ninth grade.

[1053] I guess I wasn't wouldn't be a kid necessarily.

[1054] No, no, no. But that counts, right?

[1055] Like 13, 14.

[1056] So that's still happening.

[1057] Almost everything I liked, yeah, in elementary.

[1058] I still do.

[1059] Like, I race BMX bikes, but now it's motorcycles.

[1060] And, you know, all my hobbies are virtually whatever adding horsepower to the fifth grade thing was.

[1061] Literally.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] But can I play devil's advocate on this a little bit?

[1064] That's your role.

[1065] I disagree.

[1066] I really disagree with this because I think it's really, you know, we had just had Angela Duckworth on on grit.

[1067] I really agree with her on you should be having challenges that are just above your level so that you will attain those with hard work and then you will feel the reward of hard work.

[1068] And I think that is so crucial.

[1069] And it doesn't mean you're going to be doing gymnastics forever.

[1070] Like that's not the goal.

[1071] It's the goal of just achieving the next step.

[1072] And what does it feel like to achieve the next step?

[1073] And that for me is empowerment.

[1074] It's like, oh, I wanted something and I worked hard and I got it.

[1075] But that's not in opposition to what I'm saying.

[1076] and I don't think what she's saying, which is my BMX bike, there was just a field and there were many jumps.

[1077] And my goal was to get, oh, to do a double and then do a triple and then to get higher and then to learn to spin the bike.

[1078] But there was no adult saying, okay, Dex, the next step is this.

[1079] It's like I still was setting goals for myself, but they were my goals and I was accomplishing them.

[1080] But it depends on what you're doing, right?

[1081] As someone who was a cheerleader, I would not feel comfortable being like, go learn how to do a back handspring on your own.

[1082] Like, that's not a good idea.

[1083] Right.

[1084] But the question was, did you drive?

[1085] it.

[1086] Did you express an interest in learning that back handspring?

[1087] And then go to an expert that could or did your mom say, no, never.

[1088] Oh, you like rolling around.

[1089] You're going to learn a back handspring.

[1090] That's how you accomplish it.

[1091] And this person's going to do it.

[1092] And then they're in charge.

[1093] You're done thinking.

[1094] Yeah, I agree it should come from the kid for sure.

[1095] But I also think it shouldn't be like, go on your own and challenge yourself or I'll be the teacher today for you that will help you with your back handspring.

[1096] Like outsource that to a teacher if they're interested.

[1097] But, yeah, I agree, don't just throw them in an annual thing.

[1098] Right.

[1099] And there could be things that kids do want to do with teachers.

[1100] Maybe they, you know, they like drawing and they want to take a painting class.

[1101] I'm not saying don't enrich kids' lives and ignore all their interests.

[1102] But you don't have to take any interest and turn it into a thing that is supervised and structured by an adult.

[1103] That's not necessary.

[1104] And when you think about the history of the world, my favorite story is, do you know what Albert Einstein did as a kid for fun?

[1105] Tennis.

[1106] Bicycle.

[1107] He probably did both of those.

[1108] But what he spent a lot of his time on, according to Wikipedia, is building houses out of cards, cardhouses.

[1109] Which you can't, first of all, they didn't throw him into cardhouse school, which is probably good.

[1110] But secondly, it looks like a stupid waste of time, right?

[1111] Why is this kid, he seems smart, or maybe he seems dumb.

[1112] He's just there in the corner with a deck of cards.

[1113] He's not even playing cards.

[1114] He's not multiplying the numbers of the cards.

[1115] He's just trying to build something.

[1116] And then you think, like, well, what was he doing?

[1117] He was learning, you know, a little bit of physics, patience, frustration, tolerance.

[1118] You know, they always fall, right?

[1119] So kids can, like, meander to weird interests, things that seem pointless, things that might seem a little dangerous, not terribly dangerous, but a little risky, climbing the tree.

[1120] And they will keep pushing themselves because that's what interests kids, right?

[1121] It's no fun to keep doing the same thing.

[1122] That's why we all hate playing go fish.

[1123] You know, it's boring.

[1124] We know how to do it already.

[1125] So I wouldn't worry that a kid who likes flipping is going to level out because they don't have a teacher.

[1126] But if they want a teacher and they want to go to the next step and you can afford a teacher, go ahead.

[1127] I think that's my thing is just letting them drive that.

[1128] I think the better move would have been to let my daughter play soccer as long as she wanted.

[1129] And then if she said I want to join a team because my girlfriend's on one, then now my only pushback on all this is, and I actually don't think it's what you're saying.

[1130] But I think for someone that might interpret it this way, I want to call it out, which is, I hate all parenting advice because to me, what I hate about it is I have two daughters.

[1131] Holy shit, are they different?

[1132] The first one, well, she learned to ride a motorcycle at three years old.

[1133] The second one, I was nervous if she just crossed the living room.

[1134] You know, she had this big old head and not as coordinated, and she had stitches before she was two.

[1135] The other one, I still have yet to see fall off anything, and she's seven.

[1136] So they're just dramatically different.

[1137] And clearly, I need to have two different game plans for these two kids.

[1138] But I don't think yours ignores that, but just address that.

[1139] I don't ignore that, but I actually think that you have the same game plan, which is see what the kid is like, right?

[1140] And roll with that.

[1141] So that doesn't strike me as two different game plans.

[1142] It's just like, okay, she needs a little more supervision or, you know, whatever you're going to do, you don't have to do the same thing with both of them.

[1143] And I think that actually recognizing how different your kids are is a way of relaxing a little bit as a parent, too, because you can see that it's not your parenting that made her coordinated or uncomfortable.

[1144] coordinated.

[1145] Right?

[1146] Or love soccer or hate soccer or cheerleading or not.

[1147] I mean, it's just they come with a lot of parts installed already.

[1148] Yeah.

[1149] Okay.

[1150] So now let grow is a foundation that you have with a few other folks.

[1151] And there's a different components of it, right?

[1152] So first, I don't know if you'd call it a curriculum, but you have advice for schools who want to get involved with Let Grow.

[1153] Yeah.

[1154] Right.

[1155] We have a couple of school initiatives.

[1156] Yeah.

[1157] And they're free.

[1158] One is the Let Grow project.

[1159] Is the teachers send the kids home with the homework assignment, do something on your own.

[1160] And it really is to make sure that parents finally let their kid use a knife or walk to town or make dinner or something like that.

[1161] Because for I guess 10 years before I started Let Grow, I had started free -range kids and I lectured around the country talking about why have we gotten to the point where we don't trust our kids to do anything on their own.

[1162] And everybody would not along and nothing changed, you know, because it's really hard to be the one to send your kid to the park when you're worried that, you know, your neighbor's going to say that's wrong and somebody You might call 911 and your kid won't find anyone there to play with.

[1163] So if everybody at a school, all the kids from kindergarten up through fifth grade or even up through eighth grade like with this middle school are sending their kids to do some things on their own, you're not crazy.

[1164] In fact, you have to do it to fit in.

[1165] And towns that have done this, we've heard great stories about like kids now being outside on their own again, like riding their bikes and skateboards and roller skates.

[1166] You can see them in the park and they're not all in a uniform.

[1167] So when a school or a classroom or better still an entire district does the left.

[1168] Let Grow project, free, free, free, it really changes the kids, the parents, the neighborhood.

[1169] So we recommend that because how are you going to get culture change without changing behavior?

[1170] If you're an administrator and you happen to be listening to the show, where would people go to get involved?

[1171] Oh, why, thank you, Dax.

[1172] Here's where you'd go.

[1173] You might go to letgrow .org, and then you can look up in the school section.

[1174] And the other Let Grow initiative for schools that we have is the Let Grow play club, which is the school staying open for free play before after school mixed age kids a bunch of junk around we call it loose parts but it's really just junk there's balls there's jump ropes there's cardboard boxes there's old lawnmowers whatever probably lawnmowers a bad idea and kids can just play with them and what's really great is that mixed age play turns out to be something else that we've taken out of kids lives right if your kid is going to gymnastics she's not going to the five through 15 year old gymnastics she's going to the five and six year old gymnastics and i'll tell you this study that was done at a school that was doing the let grow play club before school, all these ages would mix together.

[1175] First of all, we went and interviewed the kids and one kid said the most poignant thing to me, which was I said, how is, you know, what do you like about the play club?

[1176] And he said, well, now I have friends.

[1177] Oh.

[1178] That's sweet.

[1179] It's like, that's a really big thing.

[1180] And one of the reasons is that if you are the awkward nine -year -old at school, but you're the one who comes to play club and you give the five -year -old piggyback rides and then you come to school the next day and it's like, there's Dax.

[1181] Yay, Dax is coming.

[1182] Thanks.

[1183] Give me a ride.

[1184] It'll see you at recess.

[1185] So it can really change your entire, you know, there's a lot of kids who hate school and this is a way to make some of them like it.

[1186] And I wanted to say something actually about the LECRO project too, which is that kids who might not be doing well in school, we did this at a Title I school.

[1187] A Title I is when there's a lot of low -income kids at a school.

[1188] And one kid came in every week and he was working on his amphibious vehicle, which was taking, yeah, He was really adorable.

[1189] And he was taking a...

[1190] Ambitious.

[1191] Yeah.

[1192] So anyways, he was taking this little Tykes wagon and trying to figure out if he adds noodles to it, will it sink?

[1193] And then it was listing to this way.

[1194] And the kids would hang on his stories every week.

[1195] Like, how was it going this week?

[1196] And it's like, well, it got out, but then it started to sink.

[1197] And I had to wait in and get it.

[1198] And this kid is not necessarily, you know, Mr. Math, Mr. Spelling Bee Champion.

[1199] But he had a way to be doing something that his classmates and his teacher, recognized as education, as learning, as succeeding.

[1200] And so this was a way that all the kids could succeed, even the ones who might be really struggling with the worksheets.

[1201] And it was so transformative because school is really narrow.

[1202] What it's teaching is academic.

[1203] But kids are really wide, and they like their BMX bikes, and they like doing their gymnastics, and there's sort of no way to credit that in a normal course of the day and in the grades and in the report card.

[1204] But so this is just a way of engaging the kids and celebrating the fact that they're quirky.

[1205] My God, we did a study just now of what all the weird new things the kids were learning during COVID because they had no school or they had, you know, limited school.

[1206] You know, I learned to braid hair, 3D printing, how to draw sponge bob, how to clean the toilet.

[1207] One of the girls said I learned my sister had a boyfriend.

[1208] Dogs are colorblind.

[1209] I made noodles.

[1210] I mean, kids are a lot more than reading, writing, arithmetic, and it's really hard to see through the traditional curriculum.

[1211] So the Let Grow project is just a simple way for the parents to get away from the kids, for the kids to find their new interests, for the school to see the kid as a whole person, and for them to go off on their quirky thing, like you with BMX bikes and now you're a motorcycle guy.

[1212] You know, you have to have time to figure out who you are and a little bit of thumbs up.

[1213] Yeah, the only thing I was really interested in was making kids laugh and writing shit.

[1214] And I'm literally doing, that's my full -time focus still.

[1215] Yeah.

[1216] I think it's important for me to say one more thing, in defense of the moms, I think the reason they want to put the butt pat on so often is because they know that when the kid falls and cries and runs to mom, mom has to deal with it.

[1217] Right.

[1218] So I think for so many moms, it's like, I just want to prevent this so that I can have an hour where I don't get run to every family.

[1219] I mean, I know this is a cycle.

[1220] I was going to say, by the way.

[1221] I was going to say, my argument to that is don't placate it, don't entertain it.

[1222] You know when your kid's hurt, hurt, and when your kid's not hurt.

[1223] I think we can delineate when there's a real issue and when there's not.

[1224] And if you give very limited attention, in my opinion, they're little social creatures.

[1225] They want approval.

[1226] If you don't indulge it, it diminishes quickly.

[1227] Okay.

[1228] I'm going to be the peacemaker here because I'd say you're both right.

[1229] And Monica, certainly when they're that little that they're wearing a butt pad.

[1230] and let's hope it stops at some point, you know, you probably are around them and it probably is a total pain, you know, to deal with crying.

[1231] There was just an article in the paper today about how we're hardwired to like for the crying to really just light up every neuron in our brain.

[1232] So one of the things that the Lekro Project and me just talking about childhood independence is doing is like, you have to be away from them part of the time.

[1233] Because when you're with them, you will be running when you see them hurt.

[1234] And you will be saying, oh, I see you're using the yellow crayon.

[1235] And you will be saying, you're having fun.

[1236] Let me play with you now too.

[1237] By the way, great advice for parents that I heard recently that I love, which is don't try to make a happy kid happier.

[1238] Love that.

[1239] Right?

[1240] Isn't that great?

[1241] Oh, the addict in me tries that all the time.

[1242] Okay.

[1243] How can we turn this up a little bit?

[1244] Yeah.

[1245] Yeah, right, right, right.

[1246] It's already fun.

[1247] And now I'm going to put you on my shoulders, so it'll be even more fun.

[1248] Yeah, it's the craving cycle we introduced them to.

[1249] My kids are in their early 20s now, so they shouldn't turn it off if you're listening to this podcast kids.

[1250] Because when I'm crossing the street with them, they are 22 and 24.

[1251] And I see them, like, looking down at their phone, it drives me crazy because, like, you should be watching, you know, look both ways.

[1252] And I treat them like their three -year -olds learning, you know, how, you know, what is a car?

[1253] And it's because I'm with them.

[1254] And I know that when I'm not with them, I got for, I hope that when I'm not with them, they're not looking at their phone crossing the street because they have to take responsibility.

[1255] So if I'm not with them, I'm not worried.

[1256] And, you know, they've somehow crossed the street for all these years.

[1257] And I haven't been with them all the time.

[1258] So as long as you're spending so much time with them, and we just talked earlier about how nine more hours a week, that's an entire workday with your kids all the time, that's more time for you to be worried and harassed and sad and put upon.

[1259] Add COVID into the mix, where I'm now with them 24 -7 for five months straight.

[1260] I mean, that's so abnormal.

[1261] That's why you're talking to me, right?

[1262] We're all enjoying this break, yeah.

[1263] But I think what happens when you're a parent, Monica, and you've witnessed it too, because you've been around my kids as much as I have, you get a glimmy.

[1264] into their real life often.

[1265] You look out the window and the two are playing and we're nowhere to be found, right?

[1266] Maybe they think we're still asleep or something.

[1267] And I watch them navigate situations over and over again that they would not do if I was present or my wife was present.

[1268] Well, in increasing order, less if I'm present because they know I just don't go down that road a lot.

[1269] But by God, they work shit out.

[1270] In fact, I'd argue they get along a lot better when we're not around.

[1271] You see it all the time.

[1272] You'll catch them out the window.

[1273] You'll see them on the roller skates.

[1274] Each shit fall.

[1275] get up and there's no crying because we're not there.

[1276] And it's like once you've observed that, you have to recognize the many dynamics that are going on.

[1277] Yes.

[1278] Kids are always going to vie for your attention, or at least that's what I've seen in my own life.

[1279] So it is easier if you're not there.

[1280] And it is giving them the chance to develop those skills, as opposed to outsourcing the argument to you.

[1281] Bringing us back to the parents magazine that said you should always be there to intervene.

[1282] That's this crazy culture.

[1283] So I was talking to a professor of education once who took 12 grad students over to Scotland.

[1284] And they were watching the kids on the playground, once again, it was mixed age, during recess.

[1285] And afterwards, they told her it was so extraordinary what they saw.

[1286] And she said, well, what did you see?

[1287] And she said, well, I saw a kid fall down and none of the teachers went to the kid.

[1288] And the kid just got up and kept playing.

[1289] And, I mean, the fact that that's become an extraordinary, like a weird sight.

[1290] Like a blue whale.

[1291] Oh, like an antelope walking down Rodeo Drive.

[1292] You know, it's like, wow, I haven't seen that before.

[1293] it's like, well, there used to be a lot of antelopes there before we paved the place.

[1294] But in any event, there's something to be said for when adults stand back, kids step up.

[1295] I love it.

[1296] Now, quickly, because one element of this that is serious, which is, and you ran into this yourself, which is you were allowing your kid to further explore the mass transit system, and he's getting better and better.

[1297] And the only real stumbling block was a train conductor refused to drive the train because he was on there without a parent.

[1298] And then instead of calling you, he called the police.

[1299] Now the police are calling you, and then that's happened twice.

[1300] So there's even been crazier examples of people being arrested and or assigned work release and all these weird things for basically just letting their kids act like I acted in 1983.

[1301] So what on the legislative side, how do you guys provide help?

[1302] Like there's a Utah law.

[1303] Yeah, I'll tell you about the Utah law, which is so fantastic.

[1304] It is called the Free Range Parenting Law.

[1305] And it says that giving your kids some independence, letting them walk to school, come home with a latch key, play in the park.

[1306] can't be mistaken for neglect.

[1307] If you want your kid to be doing that and your kid isn't the three -year -old, you know, if it's reasonable and statistically safe, like once again, it's not that nothing could ever happen, but it's extremely safe nonetheless to let your two kids go play in the park.

[1308] That should be a parental choice.

[1309] And then as I studied this issue more, I found out some really awful statistics in terms of intervention, which is that 37 % of American kids will be visited or reported to C .P. yes at some point, which is just excessive.

[1310] And it's because people don't know when to call.

[1311] And by the way, if you're African American, that's 53%.

[1312] And a lot of times it's because of mistaking poverty for neglect.

[1313] You know your kid, your eight -year -old is home with the five -year -old for two hours after school because you're working two jobs.

[1314] Is that neglect or is that you having your kids rise to the occasion, do something a little old -fashioned, which is the older kid watching the younger kid while you work so you can put food on the table.

[1315] So we've been trying to pass a similar law, which we now called the reasonable childhood independence law, in other states.

[1316] And we were so close.

[1317] In Colorado, we had bipartisan support.

[1318] It was literally a Republican and Democrat sponsoring this law.

[1319] It sailed through unanimously through the House in Colorado.

[1320] It was a week away from passage in the Senate when COVID shut things down.

[1321] And similarly, in South Carolina, it had passed unanimously in the Senate and it was about to go to the House.

[1322] So we're hoping that when everything resumes, that those two states will pass it.

[1323] And then we've had interest in a bunch of other states too.

[1324] And we can't handle every state at once because it's us, you know, it's let grow, providing information and testimony and contacts.

[1325] But we are hoping to pass it in another six or seven states this year.

[1326] And I think, you know, it's still wrong to neglect your kids.

[1327] And it doesn't take that away from child protective services.

[1328] It allows them to concentrate on actual care.

[1329] of neglect and not some mom who let her kids walk home from the park or play in the park, you know, on a sunny day while she was working her job.

[1330] Hopefully we will pass these laws in all 50 states that say neglect is neglect.

[1331] Things happen sometimes and you're a parent and it's happening on the fly.

[1332] And to think that every moment has to be perfect that you would always have everything in control is unrealistic.

[1333] And here, I'll tell you a story.

[1334] So there was a guy in England and he and his wife were at a pub.

[1335] And the wife left, and then he left.

[1336] And then his daughter, who was, I think, nine or ten, came out of the bathroom and said, where is everybody?

[1337] Now, you could say that these were neglectful parents.

[1338] But actually, it was the prime minister of Britain.

[1339] Oh.

[1340] The prime minister right before this one, I can't remember.

[1341] Blair?

[1342] Tony Blair?

[1343] Yes.

[1344] It was Tony Blair.

[1345] Okay.

[1346] I think it was Tony Blair.

[1347] And, you know, they both thought that the kid had gone with one or the other of them.

[1348] So you could arrest him and say he left his child in a pub.

[1349] That's an unsafe thing.

[1350] There's alcohol.

[1351] There's strangers.

[1352] They were in a bathroom.

[1353] God knows what.

[1354] Or you could say these things happen.

[1355] So I really want us to have a system that might get a call.

[1356] There was a kid in a pub.

[1357] It's like, well, what happened?

[1358] And you find out the story and you go, that's not a story.

[1359] That's not neglect.

[1360] There are kids sometimes who get out at night, you know, a three -year -old who you don't realize they suddenly have learned how to turn the doorknob and out they go and they're wandering.

[1361] That's not neglect.

[1362] That's like things happen.

[1363] Be a good Samaritan and bring the kid back.

[1364] Don't call 911 and say, you know, put my neighbor in jail.

[1365] That doesn't make any sense.

[1366] Virtually a year ago right now, we were in a similar situation where we have these two families we pod with and we always travel together.

[1367] And yeah, a two -year -old just left one of the houses and walked on this very, very long driveway and just was in our house, like trying to wake people up and stuff.

[1368] It was on his own for, I don't know, but two hours he had gotten up at like five in the morning.

[1369] And then the rest of the day were just like, oh my God, he was, how did he into the house?

[1370] You know, like, it's a miracle.

[1371] But yeah, no neglect happening.

[1372] Just like some shit that happens.

[1373] Right.

[1374] Well, I feel like the public is on such high alert with the same fear that we have that, oh, anytime a kid is, you know, by themselves, they could be kidnapped or whatever.

[1375] And so judgmental that it turns into a 911 call.

[1376] Also, people are told if you see something, say something, and nobody's ever told what something is.

[1377] You know, if you see a two -year -old, yes, I would try to figure out whose kid it was.

[1378] But if I didn't know, I would call the cops.

[1379] But I would not want the cops to think, oh, well, I can't wait to arrest that mom.

[1380] It's always the mom.

[1381] I would think, you know, let's find who this kid.

[1382] belongs to and let's help her install a lock.

[1383] Well, even the Tony Blair's story, it's so rife with all the different status issues.

[1384] So, yeah, because it's Tony Blair, it's kind of a charming, funny story that people tell.

[1385] Now, if it's a low -income couple, they would be delinquent parents who are addicts and pieces of shit.

[1386] And imagine if it's a single mom, right.

[1387] Yeah.

[1388] Well, Lenore, what a party it was talking to you.

[1389] And I think everyone should petition their school districts to implement the Let Grow, policies, I think that would be a great idea.

[1390] It's not just for schools.

[1391] You can go to LetGrow .org and click on the Independence Project, the Let Grow Independence Kit, I mean.

[1392] It's basically modified for home use since so many kids are home at this point.

[1393] It's just another thing of why independence is important and how you can step back and here's some ideas for what your kids can do and if you want to share pictures or stories, please do.

[1394] But it's free again, so it's the Let Grow Independence Kit.

[1395] And the best part is I watched the outcome of many of the episodes of your TV show.

[1396] Everyone's happier.

[1397] You saw my TV show?

[1398] Girl, I do my homework.

[1399] Listen, not real time, but in my preparation of talking to you, yes.

[1400] But all the parents are, they're happier.

[1401] The kids are happier.

[1402] Everyone wins.

[1403] Yeah, I want to add that.

[1404] I'm shocked that you could find them.

[1405] I mean, I can't find my episodes from my TV show.

[1406] I'm crafty with the Google search.

[1407] Enjoy the rest of your quarantine.

[1408] We love talking to you, and I hope we speak to you again and all the people you've recommended.

[1409] Okay, great.

[1410] I'll send you a list.

[1411] Thanks so much.

[1412] And thank you, Monica.

[1413] Bye.

[1414] Take care.

[1415] Now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1416] I told Dr. Ryan that I've been out of my sling a lot at home.

[1417] Uh -huh.

[1418] And he said, no problem.

[1419] That's great.

[1420] Yeah, I thought it was going to be in trouble.

[1421] You thought you were breaking the rules?

[1422] Yeah, I had an admission to make.

[1423] And he said, no problem.

[1424] Just don't, you know, don't be a knucklehead about it.

[1425] Try to bench press or anything.

[1426] Did you?

[1427] I haven't done that, no. I did bang out some squats yesterday, but that was very conservative.

[1428] That's okay.

[1429] That's allowed.

[1430] I got to say that's the worst part of this whole thing is being out of my exercise routine.

[1431] You would go on walks.

[1432] Yeah, I need to do that.

[1433] It's been so hot.

[1434] On your treadmill.

[1435] Oh, speaking of which, you know, your treadmill's on my porch.

[1436] It is?

[1437] It's a ride?

[1438] Yes.

[1439] I need it.

[1440] Oh, my goodness.

[1441] Should we set it up in here?

[1442] So you can be on it while you're doing the fact check?

[1443] Yeah, that sounds like an audio cream.

[1444] I wonder how loud it is.

[1445] I bet it's whisper quiet.

[1446] Yeah, I bet it's just small.

[1447] small hum.

[1448] It was, I spent upwards of $45 on it.

[1449] Thank you.

[1450] Yeah, yeah.

[1451] I really went for it.

[1452] Oh my gosh.

[1453] That's too much.

[1454] I know.

[1455] Wow.

[1456] You really go over the top.

[1457] If you want to Venmo me $5.

[1458] I will.

[1459] I will.

[1460] I definitely will.

[1461] It was much cheaper than the white Mercedes I'm trying to buy you.

[1462] Nope.

[1463] Do you think if I say white Mercedes on here enough times that they will just contact us and give you one?

[1464] Well, I cut it out the last time he said.

[1465] Oh, you did?

[1466] Why?

[1467] Made you sounds spoiled or snooty?

[1468] I forget what?

[1469] Well, we lose perspective sometimes.

[1470] We're kind of bad.

[1471] Are we bad?

[1472] I don't know.

[1473] I don't want to be bad.

[1474] Well, you just got to live your life, you know.

[1475] Does that make sense?

[1476] Well, what do you mean?

[1477] Well, this is a thing.

[1478] People will complain about something in their life and then someone else will go like, you could have heart disease.

[1479] You know, there's always something worse, you know?

[1480] And like shaming people for having problems that are not as significant as other problems.

[1481] You know, people are just people.

[1482] Put them in paradise on an island.

[1483] They're going to find something to ruminate on.

[1484] It's just the nature of humans.

[1485] Sure.

[1486] That's true.

[1487] But it is still important to have perspective.

[1488] Yes.

[1489] When you're complaining or feeling low.

[1490] Yeah, but the human condition, it's not actually, I don't think it's objectively related all the time to your actual situation.

[1491] It's just human nature.

[1492] Yeah.

[1493] You know, to spiral about things, success about things.

[1494] to make a big deal out of nothing.

[1495] Yeah.

[1496] There's people sitting around worried about getting attacked by a bear.

[1497] It's not even going to happen to them.

[1498] Do you worry about getting an...

[1499] I think about it about two times a week.

[1500] Oh, you do?

[1501] No, I never think about it.

[1502] But you do think of other things like that.

[1503] No, not like that.

[1504] Not a bear, but a human.

[1505] You'll think about a human murder.

[1506] Oh, human murder or kidnapper taking you.

[1507] I used to think about that a lot.

[1508] I don't really...

[1509] I don't think that much about murders anymore.

[1510] Is that since you got your...

[1511] black belt and jujitsu is that why yeah yeah yeah you feel capable now i would love to have a black belt and jujitsu you'd be great at it thanks yeah you get out a lot of aggression you know why you'd be great at it is it's uh of all the martial arts it's the most brain heavy one oh it is yeah it's more of a mental discipline of staying well it's all about not exerting energy and letting your opponent get tired and just weathering their barrage of aggression and learning to do that while keeping your breathing low and maintaining your energy.

[1512] So there's a whole mental aspect to it that, you know, it's a thinking man's martial arts or thinking women's.

[1513] Yeah, I like that.

[1514] And it's all about like, it's not about strength, it's about leverage, you know, and using their weight against them and stuff.

[1515] It's very tactical.

[1516] Kind of sounds physics related, which I'm not good at.

[1517] You never have to use a calculator during it.

[1518] I'll look into it.

[1519] Remember that trig calculator people would get?

[1520] It was like the size of a microwave oven.

[1521] I guess you were probably, that was probably just in my era.

[1522] Are you talking about a graphic calculator?

[1523] I don't really know what one I'm talking about.

[1524] I just know that at a certain level of math in high school, I had to get some calculator.

[1525] It was about the size of your laptop.

[1526] And it had so many weird symbols and buttons on it.

[1527] It reminded me of trying to learn how to read music, which you know how I feel about that.

[1528] Sure.

[1529] Stupidest system ever.

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] That stupid fence with a bunch of a hieroglyphics on it.

[1532] Oh, my God.

[1533] You use A, B, C, D. Listen, that's called a graph -fing calculator.

[1534] Is it graphing or graphic?

[1535] I think graffing.

[1536] Okay.

[1537] Yeah, graffing calculator.

[1538] Graffing.

[1539] Mine was not as big as in a laptop.

[1540] It looks like this.

[1541] They're newer now, you know?

[1542] Yeah, they're smaller and newer now.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] But they're still like, there's like this big.

[1545] Yeah, they're really enormous.

[1546] I loved it.

[1547] Oh, you did?

[1548] Yeah.

[1549] I felt kind of cool having that calculator.

[1550] Sure, like you had a real nice piece of hardware.

[1551] Yeah.

[1552] Yeah, to me, you know, I dropped out of video games when there became more than two buttons.

[1553] So I loved Super Nintendo and it had A and B and then up down.

[1554] But had a joystick, yeah.

[1555] Up down, left, right.

[1556] Did it have a joystick?

[1557] No, no. It just had a thumb, you know, arrows.

[1558] Okay.

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] Up down, left right, left right, ABBA, I think was the code to get unlimited life.

[1561] in Contra.

[1562] Anyways, I loved it, and then the new one came out, and then there was a pair of buttons on both sides at the top, and then now maybe four buttons, and then, yes, a joystick.

[1563] Yeah, that was my era.

[1564] And that too much for me. Okay.

[1565] I was like, this is too many buttons to keep track of, and then I fell off, and I'm kind of grateful that that happened.

[1566] This is surprising because you like gadgets.

[1567] Yeah, it's weird.

[1568] I have a very small threshold for too many things.

[1569] I .e. that calculator.

[1570] It's way too many buttons.

[1571] All right.

[1572] You have a lot to air out.

[1573] I got an axe to grind today.

[1574] My goodness.

[1575] Lenore.

[1576] Lenore.

[1577] What an interesting person she is, yeah?

[1578] She truly is.

[1579] And whether you agree with her or not, one must respect the bravery of being so against the grain and having the confidence to stick by that opinion.

[1580] I think there was so much.

[1581] societal pressure against her.

[1582] I know.

[1583] It's funny, though, because it's against the grain, but just 20 years ago, it was not again.

[1584] It was totally normal.

[1585] Commonplace.

[1586] Commonplace.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] It is weird.

[1589] But I think, especially when, you know, she was on the news and the headline always said, like, World's Worst Parent and stuff like that.

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] Well, that's the name of her show.

[1592] Yes.

[1593] Well, actually, it's called, this is a fact, actually.

[1594] It's called World's Worst Mom.

[1595] World's worst mom Cineflex produced series that aired on Slice TV and syndicated by TLC International based in Toronto the show features extremely overprotective parents and their families and then she works with the parents to help get them outside their boundaries and conquer their fears.

[1596] She seemed Scandinavian to me. Really?

[1597] Well, I have this stereotype about Scandinavians that they are not afraid to do something that is unpopular if they think it's going to have a good result.

[1598] They seem pretty fearless.

[1599] You have such interesting stereotypes.

[1600] Well, you just have like the highest opinion you could possibly have of any culture you have with Scandinavian culture.

[1601] Well, they always always win the happiest place on Earth to win.

[1602] So there's like data.

[1603] Right.

[1604] But we have a friend, Jess, who lived in Sweden for quite a long time.

[1605] And he says, yeah, there's There's a lot of wonderful things about it, but it's also, it's like very bland.

[1606] And that we wouldn't really like it.

[1607] Well, I've been there, and I liked it quite a bit.

[1608] And also, he's got so much accompanying internal battles going.

[1609] It's not like he was on vacation there.

[1610] It was like, you know, he was separated from his mother being there.

[1611] And he was an outsider, you know.

[1612] So there's, I don't know if he's the best person.

[1613] to, you know, evaluate.

[1614] Yeah, I guess.

[1615] But he was just like, yeah, there's not movies.

[1616] I don't know.

[1617] He just, he said that he thinks if we lived there, we would find it fairly vanilla.

[1618] Oh, okay.

[1619] Yeah.

[1620] All right.

[1621] I accept his challenge.

[1622] Okay.

[1623] I'm going to move there.

[1624] Okay.

[1625] Have fun.

[1626] You don't want to come.

[1627] Well, look, the weather is very off -putting.

[1628] Volatile.

[1629] Yeah, yeah.

[1630] I mean, the fact that it's dark all winter.

[1631] Yeah, no thanks.

[1632] I'm already out.

[1633] Yeah, yeah.

[1634] But the fjords, boy, they're beautiful.

[1635] You set your sights on those fjords, boy, there's no looking back.

[1636] Okay, so her father ran a tennis club and you asked if it had inflatable domes.

[1637] Oh, uh -huh.

[1638] What are those domes for?

[1639] They are for weather.

[1640] Speaking of weather, tie in.

[1641] I need to have a sound effect for tie -in.

[1642] You should.

[1643] We should have sound effects.

[1644] This is something I was suggesting about two years ago.

[1645] I want to get a little pad.

[1646] Okay, get me a pad, and I'll use it for time.

[1647] Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1648] That's not going to be the one.

[1649] It needs to be quick.

[1650] Okay.

[1651] Boing.

[1652] Okay, sure.

[1653] Yeah, so that you don't have to rely on weather conditions.

[1654] You can play tennis whenever you like.

[1655] Sure.

[1656] So she talks about when she was in kindergarten and she walked to school and the crossing guard was wearing a day glow vest.

[1657] And then she married him, which is so exciting.

[1658] So cute.

[1659] I hope I marry my crossing guard.

[1660] Do you remember who it was?

[1661] No, of course not.

[1662] But it'll come out over time that he cross -guarded on my street.

[1663] Well, if you are the crossing guard and you have a memory of young Monica, Pladman, just a wee little creature.

[1664] I was small.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] I was small for my age.

[1667] God damn.

[1668] I would kill to meet that little girl because I'm sure you were still super opinionated and bossy.

[1669] I guess depends on what grade you got me. Like, if you were the crossing guard when I was in first grade, you probably had a low opinion of me. That was my rough year when I stole sand art and cookies.

[1670] Right.

[1671] You were kind of, you were an outlaw that year.

[1672] I think that was the year, or maybe it was kindergarten that I was really mean to the boy who sat next to me. Oh.

[1673] But then his dad visited, and he was really cute.

[1674] The dad was?

[1675] Yeah.

[1676] Oh.

[1677] And so then I was being nice to him that day.

[1678] Oh, because you liked the dad?

[1679] Yeah.

[1680] Oh, my gosh.

[1681] I know.

[1682] You're so interesting.

[1683] So embarrassing.

[1684] Was he 40 years older than you?

[1685] Probably.

[1686] No, if I was in kindergarten, he was probably like, truly at that, he was probably in his 20s.

[1687] Yeah, like a young Ryan Hanson.

[1688] Do you look like Ryan Hansen?

[1689] No. He was black.

[1690] And Ryan is not black?

[1691] Not that I know.

[1692] Okay.

[1693] And he had, I believe, like, a mustache I liked a lot.

[1694] I think, I think, if I can remember.

[1695] Oh, my gosh.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] A mustache?

[1698] What kindergartner likes a mustache?

[1699] I did.

[1700] Did a show have one?

[1701] He's had one before.

[1702] Okay.

[1703] I don't think he had one at that time.

[1704] Maybe you missed your dad's mustache.

[1705] If he had it, then he shaved it off.

[1706] So I know one time we went over to my dad's house on the weekend, and he had shaved his whole beard off.

[1707] And I was like, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, thank you.

[1708] I did not like it.

[1709] That's like when you did yours and Delta was upset.

[1710] And Delta started crying.

[1711] She said, you don't look like my daddy.

[1712] Yeah, that's so sad.

[1713] I was in the parking lot of Myers' Thrifty Acres in Michigan.

[1714] God.

[1715] You shaved it in the parking lot?

[1716] Yeah, I went into Myers Thrifty Acres, and I bought a battery -powered shaver, and then I went outside, and I stood outside the car, and I looked at my reflection on the passenger window, and I just shaved it all off, and then I got in the car, and I turned in, look in the back seat.

[1717] And Delta looked at me and she started crying.

[1718] That is a shock.

[1719] I mean, I thought you just, like, did it in the hotel room and she was there.

[1720] No, no, I did it.

[1721] Did it right in the parking lot.

[1722] I bet if you were watching that, you might think, oh, that guy murdered someone and now he's trying to, like, change his appearance.

[1723] I find it very odd that you did that in a parking lot.

[1724] Oh, really?

[1725] I was in a hurry to get that thing off my face.

[1726] Clearly.

[1727] I do that where everything's just honky dory.

[1728] And then I wake up, I'm like, oh, my God, I got to get rid of, you know, it's like an impulsive.

[1729] Okay.

[1730] Yeah.

[1731] Okay.

[1732] Well, back to the day glow.

[1733] Okay.

[1734] She didn't, she was saying did it exist back then?

[1735] The color day glow?

[1736] Day glow.

[1737] Like, you know, day glow.

[1738] Day glow yellow.

[1739] Yeah, day glow orange.

[1740] Yeah, Dayglow color corporation.

[1741] Oh, it's a corporation?

[1742] Yeah, it's a corp. And it was founded in 1946.

[1743] So it did exist at that time.

[1744] Okay.

[1745] Okay.

[1746] So she mentioned a New York Times article called something like the pain of intensive parenting, but she couldn't remember the exact title.

[1747] It's called the Relentlessness of Modern Parenting.

[1748] And feel free to look that up.

[1749] And in that article, tie in, ding, the survey found that college educated moms are spending nine hours more a week with their kids than a generation ago.

[1750] That's what Lenore said.

[1751] And then she mentioned she couldn't remember the number of, of hours for non -college educated moms.

[1752] So in the article, it says, the time parents spend in the presence of their children has not changed much, but parents today spend more of it doing hands -on child care.

[1753] Time spent on activities like reading to children, doing crafts, taking them to lessons, attending recitals and games, and helping with homework has increased the most.

[1754] Today, mothers spend nearly five hours a week on that compared with one hour, 45 minutes in 1975.

[1755] And they worry it's not enough.

[1756] Yeah.

[1757] Parents' leisure time, like exercising or socializing, is much more likely to be spent with their children than it used to be.

[1758] While fathers have recently increased their time spent with children, mothers still spend.

[1759] From five minutes a week to 11 minutes a week.

[1760] Yeah.

[1761] It says mother still spent significantly more.

[1762] Duh.

[1763] But I looked in the article, and I didn't see numbers for non -college educated moms in that article.

[1764] Okay.

[1765] Okay.

[1766] She said three out of Abraham Lincoln's four kids didn't make it to adulthood, but she wasn't sure if they died while he was fighting in the Civil War.

[1767] So the Civil War was when?

[1768] Do you know?

[1769] I think the Civil War, I'm just, I'm guessing here, I think, I want to say 1864.

[1770] 1861 to 1865.

[1771] Oh, okay, so that was one of the years.

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] Yeah, good job.

[1774] Thank you.

[1775] So his first son lived a long life.

[1776] The second son, Edward, was born in 1846 and died in 1850.

[1777] Four years old.

[1778] Of what is believed to be tuberculosis.

[1779] The third son, William, nicknamed Willie, was born less than a year after Edward's death and died at age 11 while the Lincoln's resided in the White House.

[1780] Oh my gosh.

[1781] So that would be at the beginning of the Civil War, right?

[1782] So if it was less than a year after Edward's death, so it would have been in 1850 or 1851 than 11 years in the Civil War started in 1861.

[1783] Okay, so that was then.

[1784] their youngest son Thomas known as Tad 1853 he outlived his father by six years oh he died at 18 oh my god you guys poor Robert Robert all his brothers died and then his dad died oh my god it's a it's a miracle that Abe Lincoln was able to do anything because he had um yeah that disease you think he had well you know he had it everyone can there's consensus on that remember we looked it up and we couldn't there was no um that was a fact yeah yeah no no he had it okay any who he had terrible depression he had humdinger's disease what is it called no it starts with an m but oh marfins yeah he had marfins three of his children died and his wife she had horrendous depression as well I mean, what is seeing there in the White House?

[1785] It's unfathomable what they went through.

[1786] So, okay, based on Lincoln's unusual physical appearance, Dr. Abraham Gordon proposed in 1962 that Lincoln had Marfan syndrome.

[1787] Testing Lincoln's DNA for Marfan syndrome was contemplated in the 1990s, but such a test was not performed.

[1788] Hmm.

[1789] Okay.

[1790] Okay.

[1791] Okay.

[1792] Well, anyways, tons of depression.

[1793] Lots of children dying, and then ultimately assassinated while watching a play.

[1794] I mean, what...

[1795] God.

[1796] My goodness.

[1797] That was his reward.

[1798] But think about the legacy.

[1799] Yeah.

[1800] He still was able to do that.

[1801] Speaking of horrible sadnesses, Chad with Bozeman.

[1802] Oh, my God.

[1803] Oh.

[1804] Yeah.

[1805] Collin cancer.

[1806] Is that what it was?

[1807] Yeah.

[1808] And he had it for four years and no one knew and he was doing all of these projects.

[1809] He knew, though.

[1810] Yeah.

[1811] He knew.

[1812] He was like in between treats.

[1813] doing projects and oh my gosh do they have one of those in the canned you know i don't know it was enormous black panther was such a hit they clearly were making more i wonder if they already made one they had announced another but i don't know that they shot it yet oh it's so so sad and admirable i mean just like pushing through in that kind of way, like Obama posted about him and just ended basically by saying what a powerful use of his years.

[1814] Yeah.

[1815] I always urge that.

[1816] It's not a popular opinion, but, you know, evaluating the life not by its longevity, but by its potency throughout the ride.

[1817] Yeah.

[1818] There's a ton of lives that ended in their 40s that I would prefer to have over many, many lives that went to 100.

[1819] Yeah, I know.

[1820] That's not to say that it's not heartbreaking.

[1821] I mean, I want to add a weird aspect.

[1822] This might sound insensitive, but it's incredible that he was battling that and was also in the physical shape he was in.

[1823] I mean, he was so fit.

[1824] Except I think there was something about he did an award show or something, and he was really like gone and everyone was like commenting on it, which also just goes to show.

[1825] Like, everyone just wants to rip on other people.

[1826] They don't even, he has cancer.

[1827] Right, right, right.

[1828] God, yeah.

[1829] Okay, so she asked if lions can climb trees, and you said the female ones can.

[1830] Yeah, I've seen them.

[1831] Okay, so the lion is able to climb trees but is limited to the lower branches.

[1832] A lion is large and bulky.

[1833] Gravity gives these cats a much harder time.

[1834] By and large lions prefer to sleep on the ground, although a couple of prizes throughout Africa have proved that they are fully capable of climbing up.

[1835] But I couldn't find any gender.

[1836] I looked at a lot of gender stuff like that.

[1837] Well, the reason they can only go to the lower branches is because they weigh so much.

[1838] They weigh, the females weigh 300 pounds.

[1839] And then the males weigh 450 pounds.

[1840] So I think that they're similarly orangutans.

[1841] The males live on the ground and all the females live up in the canopy because the males are just too heavy and aggressive.

[1842] I love orangutans, but those males are naughty.

[1843] They are?

[1844] Oh, yeah, don't they, like, throw poop at people?

[1845] Well, no, they rape.

[1846] There's a ton of rape.

[1847] among orangutans and what's really interesting they've tried to study the the female can still select which male they get pregnant by which is this great mystery but then they get raped they get raped yeah they pretty much just stay away from those big dinguses down on the ground but the the female rangatans are so fucking cute and smart and capable wow it's all too familiar there is a orangutans there is a orangutans an orphanage in either Borneo or Sumatra, that's where they live, those two islands.

[1848] They have chores, and then when they complete their chores, they get to select from one of their hobbies.

[1849] So they have to wash clothes.

[1850] So there's all this footage in them washing clothes.

[1851] What?

[1852] Yes.

[1853] And then the one I watched, the two orangutan's favorite activity was canoeing.

[1854] Oh, my God.

[1855] So when they got done washing their clothes, they got to go canoeing, and then they just canoed out into the middle of this lake, and then just started hitting each other with the oars.

[1856] Playfully.

[1857] Oh, they're great.

[1858] Oh, that's really cute.

[1859] Did you ever see the Julia Roberts documentary about orangutan?

[1860] She was at that orphanage and she went, there was a big male and they're fucking big.

[1861] They're above 300 pounds as well.

[1862] And she got close to one and she was just sitting and everything looked peaceful.

[1863] And then he just grabbed her by the neck.

[1864] It was so fucking scary.

[1865] Oh, my God.

[1866] And then the dudes ran in and started batting him around to get.

[1867] him to release her, but it was, yeah, it was quite scary.

[1868] Oof.

[1869] Yeah.

[1870] You don't want to mess with those boys.

[1871] Do you think they would?

[1872] Yeah.

[1873] Oh, my God.

[1874] That's horrifying.

[1875] Yeah.

[1876] Moving on.

[1877] This is kind of a dark episode between Abe Lincoln and then the orangutan and Chadwick.

[1878] And Chadwick, yeah.

[1879] Okay.

[1880] You said, I think, there's a woman in the Netherlands that has a video where she gives you a drug after you've been exposed to something scary and then you're not afraid afterwards.

[1881] This was in relation to immersion therapy.

[1882] Maybe she said it.

[1883] I think she did.

[1884] That doesn't sound familiar to me at all.

[1885] Okay.

[1886] So, Merrill Kint.

[1887] No, it's pronounced marijuana.

[1888] Nope.

[1889] Merle Kint is a professor and researcher with the University of Amsterdam.

[1890] And she's developed what she calls the Memrick method for phobia suffers.

[1891] This method is based on premise from McGill University.

[1892] researcher Karim Nader, that our brains resave memories and that these memories are malleable.

[1893] So Kint explains how her method works.

[1894] First, we trigger the fear memory by exposing people to a situation or stimulus that they fear.

[1895] In your case, snakes.

[1896] Oof, yeah.

[1897] Kint then adds something new to the experience, such as challenging a patient afraid of heights not to close his or her eyes.

[1898] This is a signal to the brain to update the memory, she says.

[1899] The memory traces temporarily in a destabilized state.

[1900] Usually that fear memory would be re -saved in the brain overnight as the patient sleeps.

[1901] But Kent has found that if the patient takes a single dose of a beta blocker called proprananol.

[1902] Sure.

[1903] Propranolol.

[1904] Called propranol.

[1905] Oh, my God.

[1906] It's so hard to say.

[1907] Called propranol.

[1908] Oh, my God.

[1909] I'm trying to say it right.

[1910] Or you just kept saying it.

[1911] Proprameral.

[1912] It's propranolol.

[1913] Oh, jeez.

[1914] Do you think you're getting closer to it or further away from it?

[1915] Yes.

[1916] Like a closer.

[1917] Oh, okay.

[1918] Propranol.

[1919] Propranol.

[1920] I did it.

[1921] Okay.

[1922] So anyway, single dose of a beta blocker called propranolol after the memory is triggered, it disrupts the re -saving process.

[1923] Propranolol was originally developed to treat angina, not vagina.

[1924] That's a heart condition.

[1925] Yep.

[1926] Yeah.

[1927] But it has since been used to treat many health.

[1928] conditions including tremors, cardiac arrhythmias, and since it lowers heart rate and blood pressure anxiety.

[1929] If the treatment is successful, the memory is altered as the patient sleeps and a strong fear response will no longer be triggered.

[1930] Is there results?

[1931] Does that, does it work?

[1932] I don't know.

[1933] Is it a theory or does it work?

[1934] She thinks it works.

[1935] Okay.

[1936] Even with a snake in your bottom.

[1937] We'll have to test it out.

[1938] We're going to have to test it out.

[1939] We're going to go to Amsterdam, the University of Amsterdam.

[1940] Yeah.

[1941] You know, Arizona State has a reputation of being a party school.

[1942] But wouldn't you imagine the Amsterdam University being like ultimate party school?

[1943] Yeah, but they're just used to it there.

[1944] So they're not going crazy.

[1945] They really are not.

[1946] It's only the American dinguses over there that are like falling about the streets and stuff.

[1947] Yeah.

[1948] Yeah, I was one of them at one point.

[1949] Me too.

[1950] Did you get shitty when you were there?

[1951] Did you do?

[1952] Oh, yeah.

[1953] Oh, you did?

[1954] Of course.

[1955] Did you do marijuana and stuff?

[1956] No, just drinking.

[1957] Oh, just drink you poop.

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] Yeah, just lots of drinks.

[1960] Well, you can do that here, you know.

[1961] Speaking of tomorrow is your sobriety birthday.

[1962] Oh, it is.

[1963] And I quit dipping tomorrow.

[1964] You can do it.

[1965] I'm going to do it.

[1966] I know you can do it.

[1967] I'm going to do it.

[1968] Not excited about it, but I'm going to do it.

[1969] Yeah.

[1970] There's a free range parenting law in Utah.

[1971] Lenore talked about, and that was enacted in May 2018.

[1972] Hmm.

[1973] Ding, tie in.

[1974] Boying.

[1975] It really wasn't a tie -in.

[1976] I just wanted it to be.

[1977] I'm going to get better at tie -ins.

[1978] You do a great job.

[1979] Thank you.

[1980] And that's all for Lenore.

[1981] Oh, it is.

[1982] Oh, I took a screenshot of it, and then I meant to send it to you, but now I'll just read it out loud.

[1983] That way the person will get credit for it because it was a very funny joke that someone wrote.

[1984] Okay, you ready?

[1985] Yeah.

[1986] It's about you.

[1987] Okay.

[1988] I'm scared.

[1989] Gary Howard 27 on Instagram.

[1990] Fantastic episode, Jason Bateman is a legend.

[1991] Congrats on 16 years, blah, blah, blah.

[1992] When Monica's P -baby gets in trouble, does she say, you're in trouble?

[1993] Oh, wow.

[1994] You're in trouble.

[1995] Oh, that's great.

[1996] That's really good, Gary.

[1997] Gary?

[1998] Really good job.

[1999] Thank you.

[2000] Yeah.

[2001] There's a lot of people out there that could brighten film and television.

[2002] Yeah, agreed.

[2003] That's the upside of the Internet there.

[2004] You're in trouble is definitely the upside of the Internet.

[2005] That is for sure.

[2006] That's really good.

[2007] Okay, great.

[2008] Well, I love you.

[2009] And happy sobriety birthday.

[2010] Happy sobriety birthday to you.

[2011] Are you going to try to not drink tomorrow on my birthday?

[2012] I'm supposed to wean off.

[2013] Oh, right.

[2014] You're going to slowly do it.

[2015] Yeah.

[2016] So maybe just like five or six tomorrow.

[2017] Yeah.

[2018] Okay, great.

[2019] You know, I'll do half.

[2020] Okay.

[2021] You go down to six.

[2022] Yeah.

[2023] Okay.

[2024] Love you.

[2025] Bye.

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