150. Greenlights (and Darkness) | Matthew McConaughey

[0] Welcome to season four, episode one of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

[1] I'm Michaela Peterson.

[2] Dad is doing interviews.

[3] Ideally, his podcasts going forward will all be new interviews, but we may revert back to some old pre -recorded stuff from time to time.

[4] Here's to a new year.

[5] He's kicking off the new year with none other than Matthew McConaughey, amazing actor and now best -selling author.

[6] He sold over a million copies of Green Lights, a memoir I quite enjoyed, very humble, funny, has incredible stories in there if you want to check it out.

[7] This episode is brought to you by Helix the place my mattress is from.

[8] If you like, I haven't spoken about Helix and Ages.

[9] I love this mattress.

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[25] T -minus one month until I'm not the ad reader here.

[26] I love my mattress, though.

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[55] If you enjoyed this episode, rate and subscribe i hope you enjoy your week so today i have the good fortune of speaking with mr matthew mconehe who's one of america's most recognizable actors and i guess according to his peers also one of America's best actors, as he's won an Academy Award and multiple other awards.

[56] And we started to communicate about a year ago, and he's also been on my daughter's podcast.

[57] And Matthew recently wrote a book, Green Lights, which we're going to talk about today.

[58] I've read that, and I'm looking forward to discussing it.

[59] There's all sorts of things I want to talk to Matthew about.

[60] So hopefully we'll have a stimulating conversation.

[61] That's my guess.

[62] So let's start with, well, we can start with whatever you want to start with, but let's start with the book, I think.

[63] Yes, sir.

[64] Tell me why you wrote it and when you wrote it and what you want people to know about it.

[65] Yes.

[66] So I've been keeping journals since I was 14 years old.

[67] And so I guess starting 15 years ago, I always carry this treasure chest full of the journals I'd been keeping, and they were filling up that treasure chest.

[68] And I would take it with me to any place that we went for an extended amount of time, put it over there to the right of my proverbial desk and go, have it there because if you get the it itch and you get some time, I dare you to go in that treasure chest and see what's in there.

[69] Well, I've threatened to open up that treasure chest and see what those journals held for the past 15 years, didn't have the courage really to open it up, didn't want to make the time to go in that.

[70] there because I was intimidated of looking back at 50 years or however many years of my life, I'm not one for really liking to look back over my shoulder.

[71] I'm somebody who likes to, you know, I'm still someone who rather enjoys making the sandwich more than eating it.

[72] I like making my movies more than I even like watching them.

[73] I like doing things, moving on and heading forward.

[74] Well, you must have had some idea, too, when you were making those journals, at least in principle, that you owed an obligation to yourself at some point to look back over them.

[75] and I can see that that would be intimidating because you're creating a task for yourself, a task of reconsideration and contemplation, I suppose.

[76] Well, my excuse was, oh, and I'd like Camillo open them up and if there's something worth sharing, she'll do it, which wasn't used in martyrdom, you know, if there's something worth it.

[77] So I, maybe it was coming across 50 unconsciously, I didn't think about 50 as a number of a time to be retrospective, but I had some time on my hands, and I had read an article in the New York Times that a young man had written, and I liked the article.

[78] I got, oh, this guy gets me in a way that it was the first article I read where he had weaved all different times of my career life into a thread instead of sort of like saying he was this then and now he's this, and this thin and now he's this.

[79] So he'd strung them all together, and I liked his style of writing, and I asked him to come on and be a ghostwriter for a book.

[80] We met one time.

[81] It was a good meeting.

[82] We thought it was going to be a book, a little hardback book that you could put on the back of the toilet, that every college kid could take to school and could open it up any page, maybe read a truthism, truism, or a bumper sticker or something, and have a little aspiration to head about their day.

[83] Well, the New York Times pulled him off because evidently they weren't allowing any of the writers to work with celebrities.

[84] And just as he got pulled off, and I was in the room, in my office with Camilla, my wife, I said, oh, I think I need to find a new ghost rep. And I stopped at the same time she stopped.

[85] And she said, you know what this means.

[86] I went, yeah, I do know what it means, which is I need to go off and write it myself.

[87] So she said, I packed up all the journals.

[88] She said, don't come back until you got something.

[89] And I headed off with 15 gallons of water.

[90] I don't know how many pounds of red meat and my favorite libation.

[91] And I went away to the desert.

[92] The first 12 days were sort of no electricity, me with my journals, no cell reception, nothing like that.

[93] I wanted to be forced with nothing but my past and find some entertainment in that, at least.

[94] And I feared being embarrassed.

[95] I feared feeling ashamed.

[96] and I feared seeing a arrogant little SOB that I was in the past.

[97] And I crossed all those things in looking back at my last 50 years.

[98] But what I noticed was that a lot of things I thought I'd be embarrassed about.

[99] I giggled at.

[100] A lot of things I thought I'd be ashamed about.

[101] I had already forgiven myself for or now forgave myself for.

[102] And a lot of the times where I was an arrogant little SOB, what I realized is that if I wasn't the arrogant little SOB at that time, I may not have had the confidence to put myself in a situation to get absolutely humiliated and humbled.

[103] So I sat down with the journals.

[104] I remember thinking going into thinking it was going to be more academic, thinking that that's what it was.

[105] That's what it was.

[106] After day five, I realized, no, there's actually more folk poetry in here and stories to tell than in the academia.

[107] So I backed off and said, let's just see what the journals.

[108] give reveal themselves to be and I ended up with eight stacks of all the journals I said where there's some themes I had a big stack of stories big stack of people big stack of places big stack of prescribes big stack of poems prayers and bumper stickers so I had these eight stacks I said okay now let's sift through those and see if we find a central theme and that's where green lights came from I found that I had engineered green lights in my life through responsibilities taken yesterday which bore me freedom to day.

[109] I found that I'd gotten just plumb.

[110] I have no reason why good fortune landed at my lap.

[111] There was no reason why, but I said, well, let's make some rhyme out of this and do something with it.

[112] I found that also a lot of my yellow and red lights, those things that we don't really like that slow us down or make us stop, all had lessons that they revealed to me, which then enhanced made them green lights, or at least gave them green light assets.

[113] And then I also found that the art is sort of in approaching the whole line.

[114] All right.

[115] So we've reestablished ourselves in a wind -free zone.

[116] So look, one of the things you struck me as an intensely likable character as a consequence of what you revealed in your book.

[117] I mean, I kept thinking it would be a pleasure to spend time around this man. And I certainly saw no sign of arrogance in it.

[118] I saw a lot of thankfulness and a conscious thankfulness and I think implicit thankfulness as well.

[119] And a lot of love for your family, your parents and your current family and gratitude for that as well.

[120] And also one of the things that struck me too was your integrity and decision making with regards to your career.

[121] You talked about taking a break after being somewhat typecast in romantic comedies.

[122] I mean, very successfully typecast.

[123] And so there's nothing negative about that.

[124] But feeling that you had taken that as far as it could be taken productively and creatively and then took a risk of really being bounced out of the system.

[125] I mean, one of the things I think that people perhaps don't understand about a society or a situation as intensely competitive as Hollywood is that it's virtually impossible to be successful there and the probability that you'll fail even if you are successful is extremely high because the competition is beyond belief.

[126] No help wanted signs.

[127] No, definitely not.

[128] And so if you decide to do something like think, well, I've been successful in romantic comedies, but I don't want that anymore, you're throwing away something that's virtually impossible to attain and then to imagine that you might recreate yourself in a different guise and be successful.

[129] It's a big risk.

[130] You see this often when actors fail to make the transition from television to the big screen.

[131] And that happens far more often than it doesn't happen, even if they have a very successful TV career.

[132] So all of that was extremely interesting.

[133] Now, okay, so you were out in the desert writing your book.

[134] How long did it take you to sort through the material?

[135] I went off in solitude five every time for 10 to 20.

[136] 12 days apiece.

[137] The first trip out was to the desert for the first 12 days.

[138] And that was basically to see what I had.

[139] I came back from that feeling like I had something that was personal that might be worthy of being between, you know, two hardback covers.

[140] I remember writing early on going, okay, now you're going to have a lot of people that are going to buy this book, even if the words are crap on the page, because of who you are, McConaughey.

[141] And I said, you're going to have a lot of people who are not going to purchase this book, even if what you put on the page was awesome because you're Matthew McConaughey.

[142] So I remember saying to myself, and one of the first things I wrote down, I was like, the words on the page need to be worthy of being put on the page if they were signed by anonymous, but at the same time need to be words that only Matthew McCahey could have written.

[143] And that was sort of my little bubble gone, because it's not about, you've read it.

[144] It's not about a celebrity book.

[145] No, in fact, There's very little in it that's celebrity -like.

[146] I was actually struck by how infrequently you made reference to the milieu that you inhabited while you were, well, while you've been pursuing your career as an actor.

[147] There's, there's no celebrity gossip in it.

[148] It's very, it's family -centered and very intimate.

[149] I actually, I actually wanted, it left me wanting to know more about your career.

[150] And so we can also talk about that today.

[151] flesh that out.

[152] So that was quite remarkable for, you know, a celebrity memoir, let's say.

[153] It's a terrible way of phrasing it.

[154] A memoir by someone who happens to be a celebrity?

[155] Yeah, yeah.

[156] Well, it wasn't a celebrity memoir.

[157] It was a, it was an autobiographical meditation, I would say.

[158] Okay, I heard.

[159] I like that.

[160] So I went away, I went away, I came back at the first 12 days.

[161] I was like, okay, I think I got something.

[162] And then I'd come back, handle my honeydews at home.

[163] home, get everything back, make sure I didn't fall too much in the deficit of being a father and a husband back home.

[164] And then as soon as I could, head off again.

[165] I was fortunate to have a wife who was like, get out of here each time.

[166] You know, when I came back, I could tell how, you know, the first, the first 12 days were like a purge.

[167] I mean, I came back and the whole family, like, saw me. I mean, I came back shedding tears.

[168] I had just sort of gone back and looked at 50 years of my life and had them down and all of a sudden was crying there too for joy, this love story that I was seeing and to face certain things that I looked at in the past or forgot in the past or thought I forgot, but noticed that actually I'd remembered was all, it was a very earth shaking.

[169] My floor was moved in a good way.

[170] Yeah, well, that's great that it was moved in a good way, you know?

[171] I mean, that's a lovely thing to have happened to you when you're 50 and looking back.

[172] Yes.

[173] And then four other trips.

[174] So 52 total days.

[175] I was in solitude.

[176] And then the next year and a half was basically editing it.

[177] And, you know, I didn't have as many of the stories in there early, which I would say served as sort of the narrative backbone throughout that streamed the whole piece together.

[178] And intermittently in there, I'll put a poem, a prescribe, a prayer, or something that would either call back.

[179] I looked at them in like in movies, like they're a flashback or a flash forward.

[180] And can they coming out of a story tell the reader, oh, this is how I saw the situation that you just read?

[181] Or can it propel you into the next story?

[182] Because the stories are really more chronological that take you from four years old to 50.

[183] And I didn't have as many of the stories in there.

[184] And so the next year and a half is going, okay, I've got these stories.

[185] My editors, I would tell them.

[186] She was like, Oh, jeez, you got to put that in there.

[187] And that's when it became, again, I was hesitant about the word memoir.

[188] I don't have a great relationship with the word memoir.

[189] You know, the word memoir always seems like, good night, everybody.

[190] I'm heading off into the twilight of my career, the sun setting, have a look.

[191] And I was like, because I need these stories to be active because they are still active.

[192] And so telling them, as long as they had a vitality that they felt active, which they felt like they were.

[193] And then I had that thing that is so obvious when you say it, but it didn't see very obvious to me at the time, which was the more personal I got, the more I started to notice that it was probably more relatable.

[194] The more into the eye that I went subjected, the more I noticed that, oh, it's actually relatable to more of the human condition.

[195] And that was my hope.

[196] Yeah, well, you have a, there's a, it's a great, it's a collection of great stories.

[197] And part of the good fortune of your life.

[198] is to have had those experiences that transform themselves into compelling stories without, what would you say, without undue editing.

[199] The African story, for example, the dream story, that was quite remarkable.

[200] For me, that was a highlight of the book, I would say, where you related the dream you had, a recurring dream, or at least one that recurred twice.

[201] and on the basis of that dream voyage to South America and to Africa?

[202] I hope I've got that right.

[203] The second time I had the dream, which was the exact same dream, 11 frames, 11 seconds.

[204] The second time I had it is when I chased down the first half of the dream, which was South America.

[205] I thought I'd finished it.

[206] Then five years after that, I had the dream for the third time, which made me say, oh, I got to chase down the second half, which was their African tribes, It's been on the banks of the river to the left, and that's what I went to Africa.

[207] Any idea why, I mean, you staked a lot on the pursuit of a dream.

[208] And I mean, maybe we could say that's the motif of your book, that you staked a lot on the pursuit of a dream.

[209] But it's much more concrete in that episode.

[210] You had an actual dream, a literal nighttime dream that recurred.

[211] And as a consequence of that, you took a large risk or a series of risks.

[212] Merely going to Africa was a risk, I would say.

[213] and not something that would be expected.

[214] It's quite out of the ordinary to do that, obviously.

[215] Well, I've never had, I've had dreams that are similar to each other, but it's the only dream I've ever had that one was so specifically, I mean, it was exact.

[216] When I say 11 frames, I mean like film frames, picture, one, two, three, or 11 seconds, the exact same frames, exact same editing sequence in my mind, 11 seconds, that ended in such a, I don't know, if ironic's the right way word, ended, it was the elements of a nightmare, but it was the opposite of a nightmare.

[217] It was a wet dream.

[218] And so the fact that it was the exact same dream that I've had once in 92, again in 96, whoa, I had that twice.

[219] That's the first shakeout.

[220] Well, that was the exact same dream I had four years ago.

[221] Exactly.

[222] First time that's ever happened.

[223] Oh, that's, maybe that's a celestial suggestion here.

[224] Some lady something is telling me. What do you think, you specifically learned in pursuit of that?

[225] And have you had the dream again?

[226] My guess would be no, that you probably exhausted it, but I might be wrong.

[227] No, I have not, to this, to this point, it seems that I fulfilled it the dream in the trip to Africa, which was the two elements in the dream.

[228] One was the Amazon River, one were African tribes.

[229] Those are the two geographic elements that I knew that were crystal clear in the dream.

[230] So that's where I went to South America.

[231] That's why I went on.

[232] I have not had it again.

[233] I mean, one, I'll say this.

[234] I'm always looking for a good reason to go for a walkabout.

[235] Yeah.

[236] A really good reason, a concrete reason there.

[237] And why were they wet dreams?

[238] There was nothing overtly sexual about them.

[239] There was, I don't, you know, so they were, you know, spiritual in that way is how it took them.

[240] Now, in Molly, I can say, and I've been back to Molly, I went back to Molly, as I write about in the book, five years later after I fulfilled the dream, not because I had the dream again, just because Molly, I've never felt more at home in a place than Molly.

[241] Now you're in certain places.

[242] You're like, I've been here before.

[243] This is my, the gravity here is right.

[244] I've been here before.

[245] Whether it's another life, I don't know.

[246] But Molly was where I felt, this is home.

[247] This was the original home.

[248] I've been here.

[249] And so that's what we went back.

[250] That's my favorite place to go.

[251] And I've been back and did the exact same trip I did when I chased down the second half of the dream.

[252] And you shed your identity to a great degree when you went to Africa.

[253] Yeah.

[254] And so that may enable you to exist in a way that would be much unlike the manner in which you have to exist where people know where you are or who you are.

[255] What do you think that did for you?

[256] like the dream you took this dream quest let's say and and you paid a price for it the risk would be the price what was the consequence of allowing yourself to do that um that it was one that it was on me that it was my doing i could own it at a time of becoming famous you go through at least i did and still do at times go through wait a minute what's mine what am i getting based off of my worth as the man I am, as the person I am, forget my fame.

[257] And it becomes challenging.

[258] What is it real?

[259] What is it not?

[260] How many of those I love yous are meant, or how many of them were just following because I just had a big box office hit?

[261] And wait a minute, the person that I've had dinner with their kids and spent Christmases with who have shared I love use and hugs, then now I have two movies that didn't do well and that person won't return my call.

[262] Wait a minute.

[263] What all matters?

[264] What do I want to do?

[265] what are we doing here?

[266] So if you have a reputation that has a life of its own, it becomes very difficult to distinguish between yourself and that reputation.

[267] And that's one of the pitfalls of fame.

[268] And lots of times you see people sacrifice themselves to their reputation.

[269] You see celebrities becoming impersonators of themselves.

[270] Yes.

[271] And that's a, it's a tragic fate, I would say.

[272] Well, that's when you go, that's, yeah, who's wagging who.

[273] I've never wanted to wag me. I mean, like, no, no, no, I understand I got famous because of who, for whatever extent, because of who I am.

[274] And what did I do?

[275] Yeah, well, I could see in the book that you were snapping yourself out of your fame, even while you were doing things like the motorhome adventures, because you were living a life that certainly wouldn't, it certainly wasn't what I expected to read, that you would, voluntarily, abandon what so many people value as the pinnacle of cultural achievement, say, at the popular level and shed all that and set out like any person who doesn't have that.

[276] Right.

[277] Well, what I was, like, for instance, in the South American trip, and it happened in the Molly trips and all the walk, the walkabouts.

[278] It was, I needed to go to a place where nobody, I just had just become famous to.

[279] I mean, my world was like all of a sudden, all the options were mine.

[280] And two days before, none of those options were there.

[281] And now it was a world of yes.

[282] And I'm going, I only got 24 hours in a day.

[283] And I would do any of this work.

[284] And you're now telling me I can do it all?

[285] Yeah.

[286] I mean, you're asking me to be discerning right now.

[287] And again, I went away to go, I need to go where someone doesn't know my name.

[288] I need to go away where no one's seen my movies.

[289] I want to go where there's no electricity.

[290] I want to go someplace where those hugs and tears when I say goodbye 22 days later are based only off of the man they met 22 days ago.

[291] Well, you managed to abandon them to one of the problems with being famous is, and I suspect this is particularly the case with the kind of fame that you have, is that it must be very difficult to distinguish between.

[292] people wanting something from you and people enjoying your company and liking you and it might even be difficult for them to distinguish between those things because fame is a very difficult thing to deal with even as an onlooker even as a family member you wrote about your mom's reaction for example she became a fan girl to some degree and that would be definitely disconcerting yes it was yeah i had eight years there where my mom and i i i couldn't i needed a mother and what i on the other than the phone was a fan of my fame somebody who wanted my fame more than i did right well it shows you the power of that too because your mother obviously cared for the person you were before you became famous but she was overwhelmed and it's not surprising i mean to some degree the entire hollywood apparatus exists to manufacture fame that's overwhelming.

[293] That's its whole, I can't say that's its whole purpose, but that's what it uses to drive, let's say, to drive people to the theater.

[294] So to be victimized by that, no, no, to fall under the sway of that is unsurprising.

[295] It's surprising that it could be resisted.

[296] And that was certainly, you could certainly see that with your mother's response.

[297] Oh, for sure.

[298] And that has that, I'm sorry, I don't remember your mom, is your mom still alive?

[299] She's 88, 88 years young and with us right now.

[300] So, and has that, has that situation rectified itself?

[301] Did she adapt to?

[302] We both adapt.

[303] Yeah.

[304] You know, I got through enough time where I felt stable enough in my career that I was like, her loose lips aren't going to sink my ship.

[305] And actually, I let the rain.

[306] And as soon as I said, You go, mom.

[307] Here's the mic.

[308] Hit that red carpet line.

[309] You can talk to anybody.

[310] You tell, no filter.

[311] Sell whatever stories you want.

[312] 99 % of time, it's awesome.

[313] And I'm like, you know what?

[314] Let her enjoy it.

[315] And I was able to enjoy it.

[316] And then come to that, you know, the realization that, you know, I wasn't going to change her.

[317] So because I couldn't change her, it's kind of like the sabbatical I took from the rom -coms.

[318] I wasn't going to change her.

[319] So I just had to kind of block her out for a certain amount of time.

[320] that ended up being eight years until I was able enough to go, go for it.

[321] And yeah, our relationship's great.

[322] You know, all through that time, she didn't love me less.

[323] She's loved me in a new different way as well as being her son.

[324] What I was needing was just, I needed her to double down on being a mom to where instead of she didn't double down, she didn't even cut it in half.

[325] She kind of was really wanting to know about the fame part.

[326] And I remember telling her things like, well, you keep wanting to come out here and see me, but what if I was an accountant in Chicago?

[327] Would you want to come see me as much?

[328] And my two brothers were like, you don't want to come see us as much.

[329] You want to see little brother?

[330] And we were like, yeah, we get it.

[331] You know, so we'd call her out.

[332] And, yeah, it was a strange date years.

[333] I never questioned her love for me, though.

[334] I knew we were going to be fine.

[335] I knew we weren't going to, like, head to our deathbeds going on a bad note.

[336] I knew we were going to come out the other side.

[337] It was just a matter when.

[338] And we did.

[339] Yeah, well, it's nonetheless a good.

[340] example of one of the unintended consequences of fame, right, is that this this very profound alteration in the nature of your personal relationships.

[341] So, yes.

[342] So, I want to switch topics a bit.

[343] I've been watching you in True Detective, which my son recommended, and I'm really enjoying.

[344] I believe you said in the book that the script leapt off the page for you.

[345] It did, especially the words of the character Rustin Cole.

[346] Right, right, who you play.

[347] Marty Hart role.

[348] That would he play?

[349] Yes.

[350] You were offered that role.

[351] Yes.

[352] Yeah.

[353] And I read the thing, and I remember telling him, I said, guys, I understand why you're coming to me from Marty Hart.

[354] I go, but the guy who I cannot wait to turn the page to see what comes out of his mouth is this guy, Rusty Cole.

[355] And they were a bit surprised.

[356] Yeah, well, they're both complex characters.

[357] So you could see that either of them might have been attractive.

[358] But I was quite struck by your characterization of Cole.

[359] It reminded me of Heath Ledger.

[360] And that's why I wanted to talk to you about it.

[361] You play a dark character very well, if you don't mind me saying so.

[362] I mean, it's believable.

[363] I've known some dark.

[364] people.

[365] And your portrayal is believable, very believable.

[366] And so that makes me wonder what price you pay for that.

[367] It's kind of a cliche, you know, you play a dark role and it invades you.

[368] But it isn't obvious to me how you can play a dark role without it invading you.

[369] And then, or at least you have to allow something dark in yourself to come out and respond to that.

[370] And you're very different on the screen playing Rust and Cold than you are in a romantic.

[371] a comedy role clearly.

[372] And it's somewhat surprising to see that transition, which I guess is why other people might be surprised by that too, which is why you actually had a bit of a hiatus when you stopped taking rom -com roles.

[373] But I'm curious, like, what did it, what were the consequences for you of playing that character in particular, but dark characters in general?

[374] The dark, the dark characters, the batty, usually has so much more high.

[375] identity, than the white knight, then the hero in stories that I read in scripts and things.

[376] The dark characters are also, they're always usually outsiders.

[377] And I, the consequences that I'm really going to portray one of those well in that part of myself, I'm putting myself on an island.

[378] and I love and I'm and that excites me I want it to be I want to feel like the underdog I want to feel like I don't have to pander to manners or graces I'm living by different rules and not even to prove a point but just it's a rusting cole's position someone who just you know I didn't make big acting choices with rusting cole I just did what I could understand the text so well that I could just say it and not have to solicit it or, again, Rusty, Rustin Cole was a guy who preferred his own company to anyone else's and that solid thing.

[379] That was a vacation for me, also to, as a person who was a believer, to have to be in an inhabit a character who is not a believer at all.

[380] And here's why.

[381] I'll say, I've always thought this was odd.

[382] at the time that I chose and wanted to go and have it Rust and Cole was the time that my faith was strongest.

[383] And if my faith would have been as strong, I might have been a little more fearful of going so deep into this man's mind, spirit, and ethos.

[384] And so you had some protection.

[385] But I trust.

[386] Very nihilistic, the character call.

[387] He reminds me there's a philosopher in South Africa who's an anti -natalist.

[388] unfortunately his name escapes me for a moment i i had a debate with him a couple of years ago but his basic premise is that conscious suffering is so morally untenable as a phenomenon that all life should cease that if we were making the proper moral choices we'd stop reproducing but not only that that we'd we'd also do what we could well we can leave it at that that we'd stop reproducing because if you sum up a life, it's bitter and the bitterness overwhelms the sweet.

[389] And so it's cruelty to perpetuate.

[390] Yes, I think that is beautiful and in many ways true.

[391] And I think it's also hilarious.

[392] What strikes you as comical about that?

[393] You laughed about it.

[394] Because that's where, of course, of course, we're on the way to dying.

[395] You talk about it.

[396] it all the time.

[397] It's tough.

[398] It's cruel.

[399] It's hard.

[400] We're out of here.

[401] This thing is, okay.

[402] I'm in.

[403] So if that's inevitable.

[404] That's the strange thing, you know, and I felt too.

[405] I mean, I can certainly understand the argument.

[406] I hear it.

[407] And it adds up.

[408] But if that's inevitable, which I think we can all say, that's inevitable.

[409] We're on the way to die and it's over.

[410] We don't, we don't never know if this is the end or not.

[411] So, hell, you know, or, you know, or, or if there's anything after it, and it is, it's hardships and overcome.

[412] Okay, since that's inevitable, and we've got to do this thing anyway, if we're choosing to stay in life another day, so what's a better way to go about it?

[413] Say it's all for nothing or realizing right there when you go it's all for nothing, no, that's why it's fucking it's all for everything.

[414] Yeah, well, it also seems to me that if your objection to life is, it's suffering, adopting an attitude that will make that suffer.

[415] suffering worse is probably not a reasonable solution.

[416] And that's where that grounds out for me. There's no construction in there.

[417] I mean, there's nothing, there's nothing affirmative or like giving a bat that's not making the best of the situation if the situation's doomed day.

[418] So, you know, I'm not for Hallmark cards and delusional optimism.

[419] But I mean, and in this way, I would say optimism is survival.

[420] It's like, well, okay.

[421] If it's all for not.

[422] I think optimist is courage.

[423] If it's not naive, and one of the things I liked about your book, too, was that your optimism wasn't naive.

[424] And, you know, because you had enough harsh experiences so that any naive optimism would have vanished.

[425] Right.

[426] Even your, even your, even your, the way you grew up.

[427] I mean, it wasn't traumatic, but it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, it had its harshness about it.

[428] Sure.

[429] Yeah, it was, it was immediate.

[430] It was physical.

[431] the same hands that hugged or the same hands that could harm.

[432] Yes, and you all, there was also very little sign of, and maybe none, no sign of bitterness about that.

[433] And no sign, I didn't think of any excuses for it either.

[434] Like, when you portrayed your father, like you said, he was a man who could hug and hit and both of them were meant.

[435] And they weren't casual.

[436] I never got the impression from your book that your father's actions were casual.

[437] His physical altercations with you and your brothers.

[438] It was a different, it's a different ethos.

[439] It's not an ethos that's well understood today, I would say, or one that's ever appreciated.

[440] And I suppose that's because of its harshness.

[441] But I didn't detect any sign of bitterness from you emanating towards that.

[442] No, and I have, I have none.

[443] While I choose to maybe give consequences to my children in different ways than my father and mother did, there was absolutely no cash inus to why and when he did punish us.

[444] None.

[445] I talk about in there, you know, the values that were instilled even by the antonyms of the words that we got in trouble for saying, to not, to get my first butt woken for saying, I can't.

[446] Oh, geez.

[447] Okay.

[448] I mean, you know, can't brings the thought of can't brings pain oh don't think can't okay you have trouble there's a difference and to say the second but open for saying i hate you to my brother i didn't know what the hell i hate you meant i heard it from older guys kids at school and i thought it might be cool to throw it out there i hate you well that was my own birthday party my mom stopped the whole party and said what you say you don't ever tell your brother anyone you hate them bent me over right there and embarrassed the heck out of it.

[449] Again, the next one for lying.

[450] So what do I learn out of those?

[451] Don't say I can't.

[452] Don't hate, don't lie.

[453] Boy, when I did those, I felt pain.

[454] So what are the antonyms of those?

[455] Love instead of hate, I understand you're having trouble, but don't believe you can't.

[456] And tell the truth, don't lie.

[457] Those are three great values.

[458] He was preparing me for, you're going to need this in life.

[459] You know, it was also the time when I called, when I called him to go to tell him, I want to go to film school and said law school.

[460] And he tells me, that was a striking story.

[461] And you know what happened?

[462] I've realized now, many years later, I think what happened in that moment is he heard in that conversation last 25 seconds.

[463] What do you got, little buddy?

[464] don't want to go to law school, want to go to film school.

[465] You sure that's what you want to do?

[466] Yes, sir.

[467] Beep, beat, beat, beat, beat.

[468] Well, don't half ass it.

[469] Boom, sent me into flight.

[470] But what he heard in that conversation was his son, who we were brought up in a very structured family, discipline, you work your way up a ladder, you follow the rules.

[471] He heard his son calling him to tell him, he could tell I wasn't asked him for permission.

[472] He could tell I wasn't calling kind of, well, you know, I was thinking maybe, no, he heard in my voice, I want to go to film school and sell law school.

[473] And he said, you also weren't calling because of failure, because you'd worked at law school.

[474] Right.

[475] But he heard that I was not bluffing.

[476] I was not really calling to ask his permission.

[477] And in that moment, I think he heard what all parents want to hear.

[478] Yes, my child's going their own way.

[479] They broke out the mold.

[480] Yeah, well, what you'd hope every parent would want to hear?

[481] I hope so.

[482] But you know what I mean?

[483] You can't come.

[484] I had plenty of times before that that I asked him for things where I was bluffing.

[485] And he could tell where, dad, can I, will you please get me the skateboard elbow pads and knee pads?

[486] I really want to be a skateboarder.

[487] Are you sure your son?

[488] Yes, sir.

[489] Shit, I did skateboarding for three weeks and then they gathered dust and got cobwebs.

[490] Damn it, that was a bad.

[491] You know, ah, I talked my dad into doing something and I didn't follow through him.

[492] But he heard this time, no resolve and a clarity in me. and I think on the other than the line, he was going, that's my boy.

[493] Yeah, well, for him to make the, to give you the green light that rapidly, the situation must have been set up properly.

[494] And for the green light that he gave you to be accepted by you is exactly that.

[495] As encouragement, the situation must have been set up properly.

[496] Okay, so you talked about playing Cole in True Detective and that you were protected from his dark excesses, let's say, by your faith.

[497] Why did that provide you with, in what way did that provide you with protection?

[498] It's a striking thing to say, especially given his, his attitude is Mephistophelian.

[499] There's a character in Gertes Faust, Mephistopheles, who's Satan himself.

[500] And his essential credo is that everything that lives should perish because of the sin of its existence, essentially.

[501] And so that's coal in a nutshell, right?

[502] Yeah.

[503] And, and that's, it is a, it is, it's a logically tenable argument, but it's one that needs to be rejected holistically.

[504] I shouldn't use that word.

[505] I hate that word.

[506] But you don't reject that argument rationally because it's a rationally tenable argument.

[507] You have to reject it with your whole being instead and say, well, despite this, I'm going to live.

[508] And I'm going to try to live in an appropriate manner.

[509] Yes.

[510] But you said your faith protected you from coal.

[511] Well, it was one of the things that allowed me to fully go into Cole and fully believe Cole and get down and live it and look at the world through that lens.

[512] Right.

[513] I had already had a few years run in my life where I was quite agnostic.

[514] It was my agnostic was not about trying to prove the disbelief of God's existence.

[515] My agnosticism was about me going, you sure have been letting yourself off the hook, McConaughey, Mr. Fatelist, oh, I'll forgive you again, because you're being a repeat offender, and I'm kind of tired of it.

[516] Put your damn hands on the wheel, man, talking to myself.

[517] You're driving here and quit going to this.

[518] I can pray and be forgiven, but you're repeat offending, cut it out.

[519] I had gone through a few years earlier in my life of agnosticism where I was not so much trying to prove a non -existence of God as I was trying to have more, understand, more self -reliance and self -determination on myself, because I had been letting myself off the hook.

[520] And how was that related to the agnosticism, do you think?

[521] Because you put those together in the way that you're relating this story.

[522] Well, I needed to have, I needed to, I needed to feel like I was wholly responsible for myself and what happened to me, that I was not going to let myself slide.

[523] There's an ideal calling to you then, eh?

[524] Like when you experience yourself as ashamed by your own behaviors, what that means is that there's an ideal inside you that's trying to manifest itself, right?

[525] Because you wouldn't be ashamed if you weren't comparing yourself to something better.

[526] And the question then becomes, well, what is that better thing that you're comparing yourself to?

[527] And it's an ideal.

[528] And then the question becomes, well, what is the ideal?

[529] You know, And that's the sort of fleshing out what that ideal is, is that that's the function of religious thinking.

[530] And so that's why I was interested in your comment about agnosticism.

[531] You know, in Revelation, in the book of Revelation, Christ comes back as a judge, even though he's a figure of mercy, let's say, he comes back as a judge.

[532] And the reason for that, this is from Carl Jung, the reason for that is that any ideal is a judge.

[533] And so if you posit the highest ideal, then you put yourself in a position where you're judged.

[534] And that's when your conscience tortures you.

[535] And so you can discover your ideal that way by having a dialogue with your conscience and say, well, I'm not living up to who I should be.

[536] Well, who should that be?

[537] Like where does that figure come from?

[538] That's a great mystery that.

[539] It's the higher form of being that you're capable of manifesting that's calling to you.

[540] and let me say this it was a version of when my father mortal father died i write about this about being less impressed and more involved i sobered up i think it was time to become a man it was time to quit relying on the fact that i knew he had my back he was above government above law i really got in a pickle and he had the back and now he's physically gone so this was i'm going to discard my spiritual father you and say we're raising them to the red light, buddy.

[541] That's all it is.

[542] So what are you doing while it's here?

[543] There's one play and you go until you die and that's it.

[544] So what are you going to do?

[545] Don't be giving yourself, let yourself off thinking, well, there may be life after this.

[546] Uh -uh, uh -uh, stop it.

[547] So that's what I've been, I've gone through that.

[548] A feeling come out of that and was, and I didn't feel this until later because I allowed myself to stay in the midst of being really scared of, oh my gosh, it was not going to get struck by lightning here.

[549] was that my God was going, thank you.

[550] Yes.

[551] Wish more of us would put our hands on the wheel.

[552] What we take, we throw this fate card out there really laxedically.

[553] Like, oh, inshalla, say it's la vie.

[554] I believe, well, you know, okay, if that's it, then ride around and run all the red lights.

[555] Get your damn hands on the wheel.

[556] Yes, you are supposed to be self -determining.

[557] So that got me and woke me up and sobered me up into that position.

[558] Now, the going into the rust and coal, I'll say this.

[559] So I've found that in my, it's, I call it almost like a boomerang reverb.

[560] Wherever I am strongest in my own life, I find a, I like to go to the, I actually can inhabit the opposite, even better.

[561] The deeper I go into whatever would be to created the opposition, meaning when I played prosecuting attorneys, I actually usually believe in the defense's position more and study their defense more, their position more, which then makes me again feel like an underdog over here to go, well, I really got to know what my argument is, because I actually kind of agree with them when I played defense attorneys.

[562] I'll usually agree or push myself to a point of agreeing with the prosecution.

[563] Well, at a time where my faith was the most fulfilled, Rustin Cole was like, ah, here's another great, here's another, what I call a boomerang reverb.

[564] Here's another time to go way over to the opposite side because I'm so coming out of here with so much steam and where I am and what I really believe in how I'm feeling in life.

[565] You got newborn children and all the things that were opposition that I happened in my life, opposition to what Rustin Cole was.

[566] That was, I don't know why that is, but I look back and I have had a consistency of that, of that.

[567] wherever I am in my life.

[568] Sometimes I'll lay in and go play a character that I'm calling.

[569] But I'm also feeling like I'm drawing something.

[570] Well, now that you're so secure here, let's test it.

[571] Let's go all the way to the other side.

[572] Because over there, here it does it, because I feel so strong in position, say at that time, with my faith, now I have the strength to go inhabit somebody over there that is on the opposite side and not have to keep my eyes open and make sure the door's open.

[573] I can trust that the door can be shut, and I'll still be there when I'm done with this.

[574] I'm still, it's still happening.

[575] You have to see it because I don't want to see it.

[576] If I'm peeking over there going, hey, are we okay, God, are we okay with what I'm saying and doing here?

[577] No, no, now, now I'm half -assing it.

[578] Now I'm not really inhabiting the part.

[579] I'm playing Rustin Cole going, I believe everything he says.

[580] I actually thought Rust and Cole was hilarious, which you probably would now understand by, I've laughed at two comments from things that you said about the other people that spoke like Rustin Cole.

[581] Well, things can be dark enough so that the immediate response to them can be laughter.

[582] Yeah.

[583] So I, I, that may help explain what you're asking, but I don't know why that is.

[584] I don't know why that is for me. It's not a straightforward thing to, to sort out.

[585] Let me ask you about, a little bit more about fame.

[586] So, you know, now and then you see stories.

[587] true or not, about Hollywood celebrities who are irritated with the consequences of their fame.

[588] And it's very easy to be judgmental about that because there are obviously the benefits to that fame appear obvious.

[589] Monetary gain.

[590] Access to access to opportunity.

[591] The benefits, I suppose, of the ego benefits, perhaps, of, being known rather than unknown.

[592] And then, especially in the Hollywood community, I would say it's more difficult to generate sympathy for celebrities who are hurt by their fame because the price, it's so obvious that that's the price that has to be paid to be successful in something that's mass marketed, like a movie, where your face is associated with the product.

[593] You can't extract out the success, you can't distinguish between the success.

[594] and the fame.

[595] But, but I don't think it's possible to understand what fame does to your life until it's happened to you.

[596] So I'm curious.

[597] And you protect yourself, you hide.

[598] I don't mean in a withdrawing sort of way, but I mean you live in Texas.

[599] You don't live in L .A. And you go on these sojourns where no one knows you.

[600] So you set up escape mechanisms, let's say, or yes.

[601] So, Tell me about fame and about the impact that it's had on you.

[602] So initially, fame, and fame happened to me extremely quickly.

[603] It happened over one weekend when a film of Time to Kill came out.

[604] The Friday afternoon before Time Kill opened that Friday night, I'm walking down a promenade in Santa Monica to go get my Tunis fish sandwich that I always like to get.

[605] 400 people on the promenade, 396 mine their own.

[606] business, four of them look and staring at me. A couple girls thought I was cute.

[607] Somebody liked my shoes.

[608] A hundred scripts out there that I want to do.

[609] I'll do any of those.

[610] 99 knows.

[611] One yes.

[612] Now, within 48 hours, time to kill open up that weekend, very, very good, get reviews, et cetera, et cetera.

[613] That Monday, following Monday, 48 hours later, I got done the same promenade, everything inverted.

[614] Now 396 out of those 400 people were staring at me, and four weren't.

[615] And I, nose check and fly what have you now those 90 those hundred scripts that were 99 nose and one yes inverted 99 yes please do this and one whoa the roof has been taken off oh my god you're so good i love you oh my god hey i'm so sorry about miss hudd number one who are you how'd you know how'd you know her name was miss hud and how'd you know she had cancer whoa you just skipped four things.

[616] Nobody's a stranger anymore.

[617] Everyone seems to have an inherent biography of me. I'm feeling trespassed on it.

[618] This is okay?

[619] Does that I love you mean something?

[620] Well, they say that a lot out here.

[621] I've only said that to four people in my life.

[622] You shouldn't throw that word around here a lot.

[623] Maybe that's how it's supposed to be.

[624] Yeah.

[625] Jesus did.

[626] Oh, so trying to take that in.

[627] I learned a great lesson after a year seven of fame.

[628] And it's probably year seven for How old were you when that happened?

[629] 96, 1888, 8 years later, 26 years old.

[630] 26.

[631] So you're still pretty young, but you weren't 17.

[632] So you had some maturity.

[633] You had some maturity at that point, thank God.

[634] Yeah, I know more of what I'm not than maybe more than what I do or what I am.

[635] But I'm aware enough of who I don't want to be.

[636] and I'm aware enough that I don't want to, that I need some discernation in this now optionless yeses that are coming at me in my world.

[637] I'm aware that I'm not, that I need to, again, be less impressed and more involved and go, hey, now that I have the chance, now that I've got the wheel and I can go wherever I want, where am I going to go?

[638] Which was the first unbalancing sort of very scary proposition, which is why I took off the first couple of times to the monastery and then the crash in the desert.

[639] Hear my damn self -think.

[640] Trying to decipher and disseminate what matters from what, who am I in this, what I actually want to do, what I not want to do, what I want to make stands on.

[641] Look, I remember for a while there, I had such a, my life with so many, like, things on top, the frequency of events were on top of me, from people, just walking down the street to interviews, to talking to somebody.

[642] my life has been recorded.

[643] The world was now a mirror.

[644] And I remember telling my feeling almost numb.

[645] I couldn't put a demarcation between the life, the fame I'd just gotten and myself.

[646] So I remember telling myself, well, since you're kind of numb, just I took the old Abraham Lincoln thing.

[647] I was like, just be a gentleman and don't lie.

[648] All right?

[649] Just stick to these two things.

[650] And I gave some boring ass interviews, but I was a gentleman and I didn't lie.

[651] But I just said, like, don't even try and get colorful.

[652] Don't even try and have an opinion on anything.

[653] Just right now ride through this and be a gentleman and don't lie.

[654] And I gave the same interview 50 times in a row over a few months.

[655] Yeah, well, there is something to be said when you're exposed to that degree to adopting a strategy of don't do anything stupid for a while.

[656] Yes.

[657] So I was, it was, you know, surviving on the way to what could possibly become thriving.

[658] But it was holding my head above water and going, just keep knocking them down.

[659] You'll take some time off.

[660] You'll get some time off to let your memory catch up with you later.

[661] So to begin with it was a shock and you've developed some strategies for dealing with it.

[662] What about over the longer run?

[663] Now, it's been, you've been well known for, it's got to be 25 years, say.

[664] So 32 or 33 years old, I wake up and it clicks for me one time that, oh, you got to get the joke in Hollywood.

[665] And the joke is it ain't personal.

[666] it's business right and that's not a particular joke to hollywood maybe it's a particular joke in and in life a lot but that made me go ah okay don't take it so personally when that person i talked about earlier won't even call you won't even call your call you back because your last couple movies have failed and you spent you know you're on the list to be their children's godfather five years ago don't take that personally or don't take it personally or don't take it personally when that person now, because you did get hit, is calling you and wants to go out and hang out again.

[667] Don't even bring up that, hey, you wouldn't even answer back.

[668] Don't even, don't even tell them you understand the score about how they wouldn't call you then, but now they do now.

[669] Well, that's a good, that's a good technique to avoid resentment.

[670] Yes.

[671] And resentment is so toxic.

[672] It's so toxic.

[673] Well, that's what the, that's what getting the joke of not understanding that wasn't personal.

[674] Yeah.

[675] I've done that with people who are looking for work.

[676] you know, because it's difficult to find a new job and you're going to get turned down a lot in all likelihood.

[677] You're going to send your resumes out to 50 places and get one positive reply if you're, you know, you can expect that.

[678] It might not be that bad, but it could be.

[679] It's not personal.

[680] Most of those jobs don't even exist.

[681] It has it doesn't, it has something to do with you, but not that much.

[682] There's a huge situational factor there and you have to take that into account.

[683] Yes.

[684] Well, it's similar to we lose.

[685] I loved him for me. I lose my father.

[686] Well, after he dies, after he moves on from this life, I find out some facts where the message and the messenger were not sympathetico.

[687] You know, what he was teaching me and what he was actually doing, there was a gap between those things.

[688] And I was like, what?

[689] Inevitably, right?

[690] Inevitably, you actually want that from your father.

[691] You want your father to teach you better than he is.

[692] Yay.

[693] You know.

[694] Yay.

[695] But the first feeling can be, and I've seen people get a lot of resentment.

[696] Oh, yeah.

[697] Betrayal.

[698] Yeah.

[699] And it's true.

[700] It is a betrayal.

[701] But what do you want your father to put forward the worst version of himself and use that as what he teaches you?

[702] Say, this goes back to that nihilistic view.

[703] If it's all for nothing, then come on.

[704] Let's make it all for everything.

[705] I'm with you on that.

[706] So my father moving on.

[707] It happened pretty quickly for me. going like, oh, I get it.

[708] He's wanting me to be better than he is.

[709] He's wanting me to do better.

[710] I get it.

[711] Bravo.

[712] So, but I could tell maybe if that had happened two years earlier, I wouldn't have been in the emotional space.

[713] I might have been because it was flabbergasting.

[714] It's like meeting a hero.

[715] And they turn out to be an asshole.

[716] And you're like, well, and they're very likely to turn out badly in comparison to your idealization of them.

[717] 100%.

[718] Which and, but at the same time, you go talk to your favorite musician, and you followed who you, you, you, you, performed your version of patriotism and fairness in the world and you go meet them, they turn out to be an asshole, and you go like, they don't even believe in what they wrote.

[719] You're like, what?

[720] But you and.

[721] Well, if flawed people were incapable of creativity, we wouldn't have any creativity.

[722] Right.

[723] You know, and so I think what you have to do when you're dealing with creative people is realize that, or people who are creative and accomplished even, is realized that the fact that they've managed that, despite all their flaws is the thing that's truly remarkable, because they have as many flaws as the next person.

[724] So, so thank God there.

[725] This is why, you know, when I see someone like Louis C .K., for example, pilloried terribly, I think, well, yeah, he did some things that were unseemly, certainly even by his own standards, obviously.

[726] So what do we make of that?

[727] Well, there's plenty of people who do unseemly things.

[728] but very few of them are as masterful a comedian as Louis C .K. So do we want to lose him because he's flawed?

[729] Right.

[730] It seems inappropriate because we'd lose everybody that way.

[731] And then we just have loss.

[732] That's not helpful.

[733] Yes.

[734] Yes.

[735] I mean, I think you're leaning into a lot of what we call cancel culture today.

[736] Yeah.

[737] Is can that, you know, in the name of real, rehabilitation, we have to have a world in which we are able to grow and evolve if that's what we're trying to do.

[738] Now, oh, I mean, you know, I'm not for repeat offenders or tyrants, but if someone screws up and they have sincere, they sincerely want retribution, I think it's fair to give people.

[739] Well, it better be because otherwise we're all doomed.

[740] Right.

[741] Well, absolutely.

[742] Like, There's not a person among us who hasn't made repeated errors.

[743] And if contrition and repentance aren't sufficient, then we're all damned.

[744] No doubt about that.

[745] So, all right.

[746] So we were continuing our discussion on fame.

[747] So you're 25 years into being famous and you seem to be doing handling your success.

[748] right in a manner that allows you to be pleased about the way your life has unfolded and so thank god for that and here you are you're still here after all these years and so you've handled your fame well how come how could you manage that okay I happen to manage that well big big thing for me and it works for me in my life like this just getting a click of a word or an understanding completely changed my perspective when I go oh that's it that's true I'm not going to quit banging my head against the proverbial wall.

[749] Oh, now I understand that one big click for me. Seven years was it ain't personal business.

[750] That helped a lot.

[751] So now I've got, okay, I understand the impermanence of this.

[752] Just roll dance.

[753] Dance with this.

[754] I dance with it.

[755] Next one, that was just sort of a behavioral perspective, even though it sounds like a cool one -liner, was when people would ask, or I would of myself, run into an inconvenience of fame, a paparazzi or whatever, someone looking over the wall, not being able to go outside.

[756] I was like, I'm not going to gripe about it because that check is already cashed.

[757] Right.

[758] That's right.

[759] I can't go back.

[760] If it's inevitable, I'm going to figure out a good way to get through this.

[761] I then started to say, okay, well, when you're watched in life, Matthew, and a camera's on you, notice how you speed up and you get a little nervous.

[762] Well, why don't you look at this like a good, the master acting class?

[763] see if you can go out into the world with eyes on you, uninvited eyes, cameras recording, and actually behave and do just the behavior that you went out to do.

[764] Yeah.

[765] You know, okay, we're in New York City.

[766] Makeup artists doing my face.

[767] My son's three years old.

[768] He's talking to his favorite things, fire trucks.

[769] She goes, well, my husband's a fire captain.

[770] He's actually blocks away.

[771] He doesn't bring him bring the fire truck over?

[772] Downtown New York.

[773] Well, that means a lot of people.

[774] paparazzi are going to come right but my three -year -old son doesn't know what paparazzi are and he gets to see his first fire truck live do i go down there and show my son's first fire truck or do i tell him no son we're not going to see the fire truck because you'll understand it later there are people with cameras i'm like eff that man my son wanted to see his first fire truck is much more important than came before any right that anyone's got that inconvenience it comes with my fame we're going to see the damn fire truck well we go see the fire truck he sees a fire truck cameras all around he didn't understand what it was.

[775] I'm sitting there going like, this was about letting my son see the fire truck.

[776] I'm tried to live my life and I check with myself.

[777] I don't, I'm not foolish with my fame.

[778] I don't open the doors and invite the devil's in or open my, you know, self off and say, yeah, I'm going to book, have a look.

[779] Come on and now I understand.

[780] I can be fully taken advantage of and there are plenty of people who would love to take advantage of that.

[781] But I often tell myself, again, who's wagging who?

[782] What are your rights, McConaughey, as a human, a citizen, as the man you are?

[783] Don't let those be taken away from me because of something you got along the way, which was fame and inconveniences that come with that.

[784] So while I don't advertise, my wife and I'll say this, we do not advertise ourselves, but if we want to go for a walk in the park or go see that proverbial fire truck and show our child, that?

[785] We're going to go, let's do it.

[786] And we're doing it.

[787] If you want to record us, I call them the Discovery Channel.

[788] Record it.

[789] You know what?

[790] Good use of film.

[791] Good use for recording.

[792] So there is advantages to having eyes on you too, because it does force you to behave.

[793] You can leave your keys in your car in a lot of places, because if even if he was going to come rob your car, they're going to document the one kind of rob it.

[794] It's a bit of a security blanket on that too.

[795] So you see where I've spun a few things here in perspective, not denying inconvenience, but saying, hey, if this check is cash, here's how I'm going to try and get constructive and do it.

[796] And so fame.

[797] Now, it gets me in certain doors.

[798] I've had to watch this.

[799] things that I'll say a famous person can come out in bold print not just on the printed page but two people so I've had I've spoken too strongly and actually hurt people with my words where maybe I didn't have the emoji to put on the end of what I wrote with a wink and they heard it like I was throwing a dagger at him but I was going no no I was just tickling you.

[800] I didn't mean to hurt you, you know.

[801] And what tickled me may bruise somebody else.

[802] And my words come out with that weight sometimes.

[803] So I have to watch that.

[804] I remember when I was a teenager, I got put down by someone who was reasonably well known in public.

[805] And it was a misunderstanding, but it burned itself into my memory.

[806] And I thought, if I'm ever in a situation where I'm well known, I'm going to remember this so that I don't.

[807] And like, had it been a normal, had he been an everyday person, let's say, what he said wouldn't have had nearly the impact on me that it did.

[808] So, and that is a strange thing to have to realize and to weigh your words that way.

[809] I'm cognizant of your time.

[810] I know that you have another obligation coming up.

[811] And so I thought it might be useful to move towards closing this.

[812] people are going to wonder how it was that we came to have a conversation.

[813] Yes.

[814] And so maybe you could shed some light on that.

[815] And because I'm curious, I'm curious about it as well.

[816] I got turned on to you from a friend of mine about four years ago, maybe three years ago.

[817] And I started listening to a lot of what you were saying and many of the things you said I had been thinking about, but I heard you putting them into words and context.

[818] I was like, what, that's, that's, that's what I'm talking about.

[819] That's what I'm trying to get to.

[820] I found, and it goes back to talk about self -determination, which we've talked about, a lot about, self -authoring, and then you hear, you hear, you see a lot of those threads through my book, maybe in a different way in a more folksy way, but a lot of what you've said gave me confidence to go, I'm going to put my story on paper.

[821] So I thank you for that.

[822] And that's why I thank you in the back of the book.

[823] You know, I reached out to you, I guess a year and a half ago or so, and you and I chatted and I've stayed in contact with your daughter.

[824] You know, your definition, one of the great simple things, and I said earlier, sometimes just to re -understanding a word differently.

[825] I've always had trouble in a tough relationship and awkward.

[826] relationship with many words, but my two that I've had the longest trouble with are vulnerability and humility.

[827] Yeah, those are tough ones.

[828] They're tough ones.

[829] So humility, I, you know, okay, be humble.

[830] Well, for, for decades, be humble.

[831] I lost confidence when I was humble.

[832] I feigned false modesty, which I knew at the time, that's arrogant.

[833] What do you do it?

[834] Right.

[835] absolutely it's very difficult to be to have humility without being arrogant about it weirdly enough you said and correct me if I misquote you it's humility is knowing you have more to learn you're either in love with what you know or you're in love with what you don't know and there's a lot more of what you don't know so pick your love carefully oh well that I went oh I purchased I'm in on that.

[836] But for the first time when I see that, I'm not shrinking.

[837] I'm actually standing taller.

[838] My heart's higher.

[839] My chin's higher.

[840] My shoulders are further back.

[841] I have more courage going forward because, oh, 100%.

[842] I can rely on that until I'm gone and maybe even further than that.

[843] Yes, I have more to learn.

[844] I purchase.

[845] But now I can go forward with confidence of what I do know, what I have built.

[846] I can add more courage.

[847] I can forgive.

[848] I can forgive easier.

[849] I can, I can, I can, I can take responsibility with more courage.

[850] Um, I can take care of the things I've built and to attend those gardens better with, with, with that understanding of humility.

[851] So for that, thank you.

[852] I appreciate that.

[853] It's a humility.

[854] It's a form of courage.

[855] I, I, I want to throw a little funsy out there for you.

[856] Okay.

[857] So while I was writing and I've, I've become a fan, which I'd love to continue talking with you more about this subjective eye and objective.

[858] We, in the third eye, sort of the jumbotron of our life, when we hop out of ourselves and have a look, or we project forward in our lives and say, who am I in 10 years?

[859] Or what would my eulogy be?

[860] You see, I write a lot about these things in the book.

[861] But while I was writing, I hopped out.

[862] I gave myself the pleasure one night after a few sips, and it was late at night.

[863] Mind you, the most trouble, I'm happy to say this, that hardest thing about going to write this book from me was making myself put a bed.

[864] I was putting 17 hours a day, 17 hour days in, and I was just like, you've got to get some sleep.

[865] But anyway, one of these nights where I was in the fever pitch on fire writing, I wrote down some, I hopped that side of myself and said, I'm going to write reviews from people that.

[866] that I think this is what they would say about this book after reading.

[867] And this is one of them.

[868] That's a great way to become aware of your audience or of the audience you want to have.

[869] Well, you have to speak to an audience when you're writing, obviously.

[870] Well, it's, you know, it's a very subjective experience, but I think there's, there is another, as you said, the good thing about talking to oneself in the third person is it's a different person.

[871] view of awareness.

[872] It's an objective awareness back at like, oh, am I actually doing what I intended to do, is what I intended actually being recorded, is what being recorded actually what's being received.

[873] There could be a lot of gaps in between those things, and I'm trying to cut with those gaps, right?

[874] So I hopped outside of myself and wrote a, uh, um, a, wrote a, um, which, what I thought you would say about Greenlight.

[875] and Matthew McConaughey, the author.

[876] It's entrance -level understanding to Masterclass Psychology delivered in a folk song.

[877] I mean, the guy's got the gift to gab, man. What can I say, Jordan Peterson?

[878] That's quite remarkable, because that is very close to what I thought.

[879] You know, so I think you nailed it.

[880] You did a, it's very difficult to put forward.

[881] forward a message without being propagandistic, and the best way to do that is to tell stories.

[882] And your book is full of stories, and the stories seem to me to add up to a life well -lived, and that's a good model.

[883] And so it's a model, but it's also not put forth as a model.

[884] So it doesn't suffer from the flaws of the flaws that might come along with that putting forth.

[885] You know, it's, and I guess that's because you stayed contemplative.

[886] I mean, one of the things I've tried to do in my lectures is to remember that I'm lecturing to me as well.

[887] You know, I'm part of the audience.

[888] If I'm talking about how we might behave, I mean we.

[889] I don't think that I'm outside of the problems that I'm discussing.

[890] Those two are not a contradiction.

[891] More of us can understand that.

[892] We're talking to ourselves as well.

[893] Yes.

[894] Well, it takes the sting out of things, and it keeps you on.

[895] the ground so well i think that's quite funny that you wrote that review and it's also quite funny that it is in line with what i thought i read the book i should show the book again since this is a good time to do that and and you know that's the cover of with my picture on but underneath that is is the really cool thing that sort of is the is the is the symbol that's the metaphor that i'm playing with which is all the red and yellow lights that we have and all the hardships the crisis is in the rear view mirror of life, at least via lessons learned will reveal green light assets that we need it.

[896] It's not denying the crisis, you know, of even the death of a loved one, but it is saying, oh, there were lessons even in that.

[897] And I would offer, I wonder, you know, Jordan, if some of these lessons we know we're going to learn them when we're in the crisis, some we don't know till next month, some we're probably not going to know to our deathbed.

[898] And I would argue that some will never be realized until maybe.

[899] maybe our great, great, great grandkids realize them three generations from now.

[900] And there's a green light in this year we're in right now.

[901] Big green lights in this big red light year of COVID and social unrest and, and political distrust and people having to redefine who they are and what politics is and what's fairness and what's equality and all the, this, in the extremes, everyone, there's a big, there's big green lights that will be revealed out of this year.

[902] I don't know when, but more than optimistic, I think realistic that that's going to be true.

[903] That's an excellent place to end.

[904] I would say thank you very much.

[905] It's been a pleasure talking to you, and I deeply appreciated the acknowledgement, and I'm very pleased that my work has contributed to what you've produced.

[906] I also get a kick out of the fact that our books are chasing each other on the top 10 list on Amazon.

[907] So I think that's quite, well, it's a privilege and it's an impossible privilege.

[908] And so I'm very pleased to see that.

[909] And I wish you the best of luck.

[910] I hope that we get a chance to talk again.

[911] I enjoyed that very much.

[912] I did too.

[913] Good, good.

[914] And hopefully the audience will respond in the same way.

[915] I think so.

[916] So thanks for taking the time, eh?

[917] My pleasure, Jordan.

[918] I very much appreciate.

[919] I look forward to the next time.

[920] Good to see you, sir.

[921] Good to see you, too.

[922] Ciao.