401. How Many Prince Charleses Can There Be in One Room?

[0] From Stitcher and Dubner Productions, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything.

[1] Here's your host, Stephen Dovner.

[2] Hey there, podcast listeners, and happy holidays.

[3] This time of year, we would usually put out a repeat, but instead, we've got something new for you and something different.

[4] This grew out of a friendship with Angela Duckworth, a psychology professor at the University of Pennsylvania.

[5] I first interviewed her a few years ago about the book she had just written called Grit.

[6] I define grit as passion and perseverance for especially long -term goals.

[7] She is also founder and CEO of the Character Lab, which tries to harness the science of grit or character development to help young people thrive in school and beyond.

[8] Then she launched another, even more ambitious project called Behavior Change for Good, and we talked about that on the show as well.

[9] The problem with human beings is that they're human beings and that they repeatedly make decisions that undermine their own long -term well -being.

[10] Duckworth was always so interesting and fun that we had her join us as a co -host for a bunch of live shows.

[11] So is it true then that picky eaters and hypochondriacs are more likely to be politically conservative?

[12] One thing Angela does really well is ask interesting questions, and I admire that trait, since that's what we try.

[13] to do every week on this show.

[14] So I thought it might be fun to just sit down with her for a conversation armed with nothing more than a question to ask each other.

[15] This happens to be one of my favorite hobbies, a mutual question -asking society.

[16] You never know where a conversation like this will go.

[17] More often than not, it leads to more questions like Russian nesting dolls.

[18] And that is what you are about to hear, a little matroshka of a conversation.

[19] We had so much fun making this episode that we are thinking about spinning this idea off into its own podcast, separate from Freakonomics Radio.

[20] You think that's a good idea?

[21] After you've listened, write to Radio at Freakonomics .com and let us know what you think.

[22] All feedback welcome, whether you like it, hate it, or feel profound indifference.

[23] And thanks so much for all your interest and attention over this past year.

[24] Every month, nearly four million people around the world listen to at least one episode of our show.

[25] show.

[26] I'm glad you're one of them.

[27] Okay.

[28] On to this special episode of Freakonomics Radio.

[29] Happy holidays.

[30] Angela Duckworth, question for you.

[31] All right.

[32] I'm ready.

[33] Let's say that you, personally, are granted one genie wish, but it's multiple choice.

[34] You get to be in the top 1 % globally in either grit or wealth or intellect.

[35] Grit, wealth, intellect.

[36] And now this is, let's say, this is you are who you are, but not really.

[37] In other words, I was just going to ask, like, you know, are we talking about?

[38] Then you're going to be like in the bottom one percent of the other ones.

[39] No, no, no. It's not that.

[40] I just get to like upgrade in one dimension.

[41] Yeah, let's say that.

[42] Well, no, that's tricky because you may already be, you may already consider yourself.

[43] Right.

[44] So let's say no. Okay.

[45] Let me rephrase the question.

[46] Not you, Angela Duckworth.

[47] You person.

[48] Yeah.

[49] This is like the veil of ignorance that like I'm a human.

[50] Right.

[51] Who came up with that?

[52] It's John.

[53] Is it wrong?

[54] Lock?

[55] Rawls, I think.

[56] Really?

[57] Yeah, it's either locks or rolls.

[58] It doesn't predate that?

[59] I thought it was like Ring of Geige's.

[60] Oh, my.

[61] No. I think the veil of ignorance is like, you know, within the last 200 years.

[62] So let's say you put on the veil of ignorance and you are a new entity and I say you, oh, veiled one, get to be in the top 1 % globally forever in either grittiness, intellect or wealth.

[63] Which do you choose and why?

[64] That's really what I want to know is the why.

[65] Hmm.

[66] I mean, an honest answer, but predictable answer, I would choose grit.

[67] Because?

[68] Okay, so first of all, for wealth, I mean, I really just don't have any desire to be in the top whatever percent of wealth.

[69] And I'm sure you could do a lot of good with that wealth, but it's just, it's never been, you know, an appealing pursuit.

[70] So maybe not for its own sake, but then.

[71] Instrumentally, though.

[72] I know you're saying, like, you could do great good.

[73] Right.

[74] Or even if not great good, whatever.

[75] the stuff you could hope to get with the grit or the intellect, couldn't you get a lot easier with the wealth?

[76] You know, I think there's a huge difference.

[77] And my good friend, and you may know him, the psychologist Barry Schwartz, has...

[78] Paradox of choice.

[79] The paradox of choice guy.

[80] So Barry Schwartz has something new that he's really obsessed about, and it is intrinsic motivation.

[81] And he would say, he calls it internal motivation just to not be confused with, you know, what some people call intrinsic motivation.

[82] And basically he says, you know, if you have a garden and, you know, the garden is pretty producing beautiful flowers and beautiful fruits and vegetables.

[83] And you tend to the garden.

[84] There's a kind of worth, value and satisfaction that is derived, that is different from if you, like, pay a gardener to, like, do your garden.

[85] And I think there is something about earning your accomplishments that I don't think wealth, because wealth is kind of instrumental.

[86] Like, oh, I could pay somebody to, you know, accomplish this great research.

[87] It's different from doing yourself.

[88] Or, so I can't say I don't agree with you.

[89] Or I can't say that what you said.

[90] You wouldn't have chosen wealth either, by the way.

[91] Resonate.

[92] Right.

[93] But on the other hand, I could argue, well, if I'm at the upper end in wealth, then I could afford to have 10 different gardens that I would tend myself and have all different kinds of experiments and experience to figure out, let's say I believe that the satisfaction that you just described of producing yourself.

[94] Let's say that that is the most valuable thing.

[95] Well, I've just increased my ability to have even more of that.

[96] I have a portfolio of garden investments.

[97] Well, not just investments, but a portfolio of gardening opportunities.

[98] Oh, opportunities that you would then tend.

[99] Yeah.

[100] Although, you know, it's hard to tend, 10 gardens.

[101] Well, how do you know?

[102] You haven't tried it.

[103] You're not wealthy enough to have 10 gardens.

[104] That's true.

[105] I'm not even wealthy enough to have one garden.

[106] Okay, but you're knocking out wealth.

[107] You're knocking out wealth.

[108] You're not like passing moral judgment on anybody who wants to be wealthy.

[109] Intellect, you're also knocking out.

[110] Now, we should say.

[111] And that was the horse race.

[112] That's where I was like, oh.

[113] And you're a pretty smart cookie, I have to say.

[114] Thank you.

[115] Okay, so here's what my husband would say.

[116] of me right so my husband thinks that the great irony is that I have spent my entire professional career studying everything other than IQ in fact my doctoral dissertation is called non IQ predictors of success right it's like got a hyphen in it non hyphen IQ it should because it's a compound adjective for our listeners out there you should hyphenate your compound adjectives yes so if you have a high school teacher it should be high hoffen it should be high hyphen school space teacher.

[117] Otherwise, you have a high school teacher.

[118] Yes.

[119] Yes, exactly.

[120] Or yes, that's true.

[121] Yeah, so the kind of person who might say hoffin instead of hyphen.

[122] Yes, exactly.

[123] Right.

[124] So non - IQ.

[125] So I study all these non - IQ things like grit and delay gratification and growth mindset and, you know, and so the irony my husband thinks is that really I'm personally kind of obsessed with intelligence and that I love it and I, you know, I wish I had more of it and that, you know, I really enjoy people who are just, you know, wicked smart.

[126] And you seek out and accord higher status to people who are wicked smart even if they don't seem that high status in other realms?

[127] I really love talking to people who are fast.

[128] Fast.

[129] Yeah, like their brain.

[130] And I know that's not the only way to be smart, but just that their brain moves really quickly.

[131] And you're like, oh, you know, and then like, you know, it doesn't take them that long to process the thought and then move on to the next one.

[132] So he's right about that.

[133] but I didn't pick it, you know, not just so I can be, like, consistent with my brand.

[134] But I do think if it were, if you, you know, you made it multiple choice, Stevens.

[135] I can't really, like, you know, say that I wouldn't want to be smarter too.

[136] But in the long, long run, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of really smart people who don't accomplish much.

[137] But in the long, long run, I don't think there are that many people who are just, you know, the epitome of passion and perseverance who don't, you know, do something.

[138] Are you sure?

[139] I mean, isn't the world full?

[140] of people that we don't know about despite the fact that they've been super gritty and they've exercised as you just ticked off perseverance and passion and yet didn't quote accomplish enough to become known well this is the thing about multiple choices right like you know you're oh now you're blaming the test I'm blaming the test maker I'm blaming you Stephen so here's the thing though right because I think in a multiple choice where you're forced to pick one you're forced to pick one You know, really, on any of these, you could say, well, what if?

[141] Because I think actually what we want to be in life, you, me, and everyone else is, you know, we probably want to be more than one thing.

[142] So you're right.

[143] Grit isn't the only thing you need, you know, to be happy and successful.

[144] But if you have grit and, you know, good judgment or, you know, grit in humility, grit in a big heart.

[145] So you're right.

[146] It's not the only thing.

[147] But, you know, neither is intelligence the only thing, right?

[148] So there we go.

[149] Well, let me rephrase the question slightly then.

[150] think about the purpose, I guess, of life and what you think is the highest purpose, or it doesn't have to be one thing, right, what you believe to be kind of...

[151] My highest purpose, you mean.

[152] Right.

[153] So let's say that in order to successfully reach or fulfill that purpose, as best as you can, which of the following then would be most useful in pursuit of said purpose, grit, intellect, or money?

[154] Again, you're making me pick one, which I get it.

[155] Well, but first tell us what do you see is, what's the purpose of life?

[156] What's the purpose of my life?

[157] Yeah.

[158] I'm just going to use that big qualifier there because I don't want, right?

[159] It's not, you know, not for me to tell you about your life.

[160] I think the purpose of my life is to achieve something.

[161] In other words, I do not think that the purpose of my life is to do something like be the happiest person or have the most experiences.

[162] You know, I remember distinctly the day I was taking a walk with my dad.

[163] I was, you know, young enough to still be like holding his hand and looking up.

[164] so I don't know how old I was, but I was a little girl.

[165] And I asked him, so I was old enough to ask him this question.

[166] I asked him if he was happy.

[167] And he stopped because every time he had to answer a question, he would just stop walking.

[168] It was very annoying.

[169] We didn't get very far, very many days.

[170] And he said, why would I want to be happy?

[171] I want to be successful.

[172] So I do think I inherited my father's sort of like life is about accomplishing something important.

[173] And for me, it's, you know, I want to help kids, like lead a healthy life.

[174] But I don't really think, like, oh, I want to, you know, I haven't been to that country.

[175] Like, I want to see what that, you know, restaurant is like.

[176] I just, I don't care that much about, like, that kind of happiness.

[177] And do you feel that you're driven toward that kind of accomplishment out of generosity and good -heartedness?

[178] Or because, look, you've accomplished a lot in your life.

[179] Your CV reads, like, a track record of a successful person, right?

[180] Great institutions of learning, great accomplishments.

[181] I have a job.

[182] You have a job, da -da -da, nice family, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[183] Is it that you want to help other people, like I said, out of generosity, altruism, or because you derive great pleasure and even, dare I say, happiness from the feeling of accomplishment?

[184] So, Immanuel Kant, or Kant, depending on how you want to pronounce it, said, I think, that if you do something good because it brings you pleasure, right?

[185] Because it feels good to do good, then it doesn't count, right?

[186] And I remember when I learned this, I was taking justice, you know, moral reasoning.

[187] It was like my freshman year in college.

[188] And I remember thinking like, oh, what a guy thing to say.

[189] Like, I feel like it's like, you know, such like a, oh, if it's not rational and it's not like, you know, only because it's a moral principle.

[190] I actually think that a lot of our most benevolent and honorable motivations come from like a kind of visceral, like it feels good.

[191] So when you ask me the question like, oh, why do I care about kids?

[192] Like I really like them I mean I really like you know give me a random kid I just like them give me a random adult Like I don't know I often like them But not as often as I like kids Where do dogs lie on that scale Oh dogs are below kids I'm not like kind of not a dog person But above adults?

[193] Yeah well let's see Yeah dogs might be somewhere but too No I kind of like adult I think I actually like adults more And then cats you like dogs the least You didn't ask me about cats Yeah cats are like right there below kids I'm kind of a big cat person So I just a cat person So I just asked you about the wrong animal Exactly.

[194] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[195] So you like cats more than adults?

[196] Yes, let it go on the record.

[197] If an adult has a cat?

[198] Then I like them ten times more.

[199] Okay, yeah.

[200] Yeah, so I do get a lot of just like, I don't know, selfish enjoyment from being with kids and like the idea that you could make some kids out there like happier.

[201] So there's a, you know, I don't think it's like, you know, purely, you know, unemotional motive.

[202] I really appreciate that distinction you just made and it makes me think.

[203] You know, back to the kind of grit theory of life, which is without a passion for something, then it becomes a little bit of, you know, accomplishment for accomplishment's sake or success for successes's sake, right?

[204] I mean, I think you can be a gritty person who's using all your grit for bad.

[205] I mean, let me just be clear.

[206] Like, I don't want to say that.

[207] Hitler was gritty.

[208] Yes.

[209] The canonical sort of, you know, everyone rolls out Hitler as the example of like, oh, but then again, there was Hitler.

[210] But in this case, yes.

[211] Sorry if my example is a cliche.

[212] Stalin was also greedy.

[213] Yeah, Stalin.

[214] Let's take Stalin for a little variety.

[215] But no, seriously, I think in general, one of the things that really motivates people to stay committed to something for a long time is feeling like you're part of something bigger than yourself.

[216] Now, again, you can be misguided.

[217] But very, very often, it is a kind of benevolent, you know, like, oh, this isn't just for me kind of motivation.

[218] That also, it's maybe not your only fuel, but it's also one of the things that motivates you.

[219] So for me, like, yeah, I would pick grit because I feel like I would be able to achieve what I want to do with my life, which is to accomplish something for kids.

[220] Intelligence, I think, would also be awesome if you made it two choices.

[221] Of course, I'd pick intelligence probably as my second choice.

[222] But, you know, why don't I just be the gritty person who gets all the smart people to work on this project?

[223] That's what is basically my strategy in life.

[224] Coming up after the break, Angela Duckworth has a question for me. This is the question I could have studied in graduate school for psychology, but I took another path.

[225] Which inevitably leads to more questions.

[226] Like how many Prince Charleses can there be in the room, right?

[227] You are listening to this special experimental question -asking episode of Freakonomics Radio with Angela Duckworth.

[228] We'll be right back.

[229] Stephen, I have a question.

[230] Hit me. This is the question I could have studied in graduate school for psychology, but I took another path.

[231] And here it is.

[232] Charisma.

[233] The other day I was talking to my younger daughter, Lucy, and she said something about how you can't teach charisma.

[234] Some people are naturally super charismatic and some people nobody wants to be with.

[235] And you can't get from one end to the other.

[236] Do you think that charisma can be taught?

[237] And like, I don't know, you've interviewed a lot of people.

[238] Who's the most charismatic person you've ever met?

[239] Hmm.

[240] So I like the question.

[241] I could answer the most charismatic people part.

[242] That's easy.

[243] But let me go back to the nature of the question.

[244] So the nature of the question is charisma, learned or inherent, correct?

[245] That's the question?

[246] Nature, nurture.

[247] Okay.

[248] So in order to answer that, I would want to turn it around and ask you, how are we defining charisma?

[249] Because I have a definition in my head, but I want to know what yours is.

[250] So first, and then you tell me yours, okay?

[251] So I think charisma is a kind of almost like a magnetic force that draws people's attention in a very positive way.

[252] So when you think of somebody who is like really charismatic, it's like you can't take your eyes off them and they're the star.

[253] They sort of like, you know, it's not like you can't take your eyes off them and it's terrible.

[254] It's more like it's a very admiring.

[255] And also I think kind of like almost an affectionate kind of attention.

[256] Yeah.

[257] I think that was a very good definition better than I could do because I was about to think that you were describing someone who could also be terrible, but then you saved it at the end by bringing in affection, right?

[258] It has to be a positive, right?

[259] I mean, I think we all know people who are charismatic who have bad intentions.

[260] Well, I think Donald Trump is charismatic.

[261] Oh, gosh.

[262] I mean, I think.

[263] Do you agree?

[264] I think even the people who hate him the very most would agree.

[265] Yeah, okay.

[266] So that's what I mean.

[267] I do.

[268] I'm not saying that I. Gotcha, gotcha.

[269] Right?

[270] Yeah.

[271] So, yeah.

[272] So I like your definition much better than mine.

[273] Mine would be something like charisma as the quality, someone having the quality that makes me want to do what they do or believe what they believe.

[274] Oh, so you want to emulate them?

[275] It makes me want to emulate them in some way.

[276] So it's a little bit different than an inspiration.

[277] But it makes, I define charisma as, somebody who embodies or articulates a whatever, an idea, a world view, yeah, that strikes me as like, yeah, that is.

[278] So they're persuasive.

[279] They're like maximally persuasive in a way?

[280] Not necessarily because, look, the people, there are a lot of people who hate Trump as a president who describe him as charismatic and plainly they're not being persuaded.

[281] Right.

[282] That would be me. Like, I don't think he's, yeah, he hasn't persuaded me of very much.

[283] So who, okay, so other than Trump, let's name some people that we think are super charismatic.

[284] So, first of all, I'm really bad at fill in the blank.

[285] I'm better at multiple choice.

[286] But you asked me who have interviewed that I think of charismatic.

[287] So I'll name a few, okay?

[288] Wittemarsallis, the musician.

[289] Now, I happen to like his music, and I happen to like him as a person, and I happen to like his story and what he does.

[290] And he was just like, I just wanted to, like, have a stool and carry the stool around and sit wherever he was.

[291] He was just, yeah, he has.

[292] a spirit about him that I find joyful and challenging and large.

[293] And he has a way of dealing with bad things that people have said or done too that is very like, yeah, that was a, that was a crap thing.

[294] And that's not my problem.

[295] I'm going to figure out how to, you know, how to do my thing well.

[296] And I love that.

[297] You know, Bill Clinton, I have an interview, but I interacted with them a few times.

[298] He has.

[299] Oh, if you Google it, because I have.

[300] I googled it.

[301] Charisma plus blank, but I googled it.

[302] Yeah, well, you're like, who is super charismatic or, like, charismatic role models.

[303] Or if you go on YouTube and you look for, like, charisma videos.

[304] So usually get, like, Will Smith, Bill Clinton.

[305] Actually, interestingly, they're mostly men.

[306] When I was thinking through just now, I was coming up with men and I had to, like, actively turn on the search engine over.

[307] So I did think of a couple.

[308] Well, let me, okay, let me finish my list because Clinton, whatever, but I think a lot of politicians, I mean, that's how they're successful.

[309] It's like Eric Garcetti, the mayor of Los Angeles that you and I both know a bit, super charismatic, super charismatic.

[310] Also the mayor of London, who we had on the show recently, Sadie Khan, super charismatic.

[311] But again, I think there's a strong overlap between charisma and electability.

[312] Okay, yeah, yeah.

[313] Probably not so surprising.

[314] Here's someone I found super charismatic, even though he's not like vibrant necessarily, Stephen Spielberg.

[315] Oh, really?

[316] Because I don't know him.

[317] I found him, this was a long time ago, but I spent about a week with him writing a piece about him.

[318] And I found him really remarkable in this sort of combination of, this is probably not quite right, but it felt like a combination of confidence and humility that made him appeal.

[319] So attractive.

[320] So appealing.

[321] Super attracted.

[322] But now I feel like our definition is getting too big, right?

[323] Because now I feel like we're just like, oh, and I sure like Stephen Spielberg.

[324] Either that or I never interviewed charismatic people.

[325] And truth be told, I think most people that would be characterized as charismatic are not the kind of people that we interview.

[326] I would agree with that.

[327] I don't think you get many, like, brown.

[328] Except for you.

[329] It's present company excluded.

[330] No, but I don't think you get much like mileage in academia by having, you know, charisma.

[331] Well, that's probably not true.

[332] I mean, I think you get a little bit, right?

[333] But here's the thing.

[334] Here's a narrower definition, because I don't want it to just be like, oh, people we like, you know, or likeability.

[335] I think that when most people think of charisma, they're thinking about a public, you know, public speaking, you know, like Ted or some other venue, you know, where it's not just like, oh, you and Martin Marsalis just happen to be at a coffee shop and like he happens to be really, I mean, I know we use that word charisma also to describe those people.

[336] But in that case, then the question is like, what makes somebody who's in a kind of public role really?

[337] Why did Hillary Clinton?

[338] I think Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are a really good example because if you Google Hillary Clinton, Bill.

[339] You think he, like, did a charisma transplant in her sleep and stole her?

[340] Well, okay, so you're saying the same thing that everyone says, which is that he was naturally charismatic and she was the opposite.

[341] I didn't say naturally, by the way, but.

[342] Yeah, I did put that word.

[343] Do you want to say it?

[344] It's multiple choice.

[345] I have no idea.

[346] I mean, I've read a fair amount about him.

[347] My sense is that he realized from a very early age what he wanted to do and figured out how to do it.

[348] And part of that was being charming.

[349] The first time I met him, like I said, I've interacted with him a few times in a...

[350] Just playing golf or something?

[351] No. We actually, we were, I warmed up for him as a speaker several times a few years back.

[352] We had the same, I think we had the same lecture agent, maybe still do.

[353] And he was out speaking a lot and I was out speaking a lot.

[354] And sometimes we'd be like part of the same.

[355] Yeah, you'd be on the docket together.

[356] And the first time I met him, I came up, this is an example of his charisma.

[357] I just finished speaking.

[358] I came backstage and he was standing there.

[359] And he was nice and kind and chatty, whatever.

[360] And then check this out, he goes out to start.

[361] his talk and how does he start it by complimenting me the former speaker he said something like how about that freakinomics you've read the book now you've seen the movie it was even better like a totally gratuitous that made me feel good generous it was super generous yeah so anyway to me that is like that's the fine line between like charisma and what's what's right before it or after because yeah like charisma i just looked up the etymology i don't i don't know how accurate This is the English term charisma is from the Greek, which means favor freely given or gift of grace.

[362] Oh, that's so interesting.

[363] Which implies a sort of benevolence.

[364] Divinity, too.

[365] Also, it implies a kind of, because if you imagine somebody who's, like, lower status than you being charismatic, it doesn't feel right.

[366] You know, it feels right for someone to be Oprah and charismatic, but not like somebody who is, you know.

[367] Wait a minute.

[368] Go in, say, give me an example.

[369] What do you mean?

[370] Well, okay, so here's my view of, so by the way, I. I was an intern in the White House during the Clinton administration.

[371] Actually, I believe it was the Monica Lewinsky summer.

[372] What do you mean you believe it was?

[373] You know it was.

[374] I know it was.

[375] I know it sounds like a politician.

[376] Like, well, it may or may not have been the summer of Monica Lewinsky.

[377] And how much did you interact with President Clinton?

[378] Well, I was in the speech writing office.

[379] And so I penned a few of his very short remarks, including the, you know, address to the land grant colleges.

[380] It was a anniversary.

[381] It was like a anniversary.

[382] And I did get to meet him once.

[383] Can you give us a phrase from one of your speeches?

[384] Maybe on the land grip?

[385] That was a big deal.

[386] I cannot recall verbatim, but I believe that he expressed his, you know, steadfast commitment to this great American tradition.

[387] Wow, that's juicy.

[388] Thanks for sharing that.

[389] There you go.

[390] I was like 20 -something.

[391] I didn't know what I was doing.

[392] So you met him once.

[393] I met him.

[394] And, you know, even then, because now I feel like, you know, in some ways his reputation as like the go -to charismatic role model has even become greater than it was during his presidency.

[395] And even then, everybody said, like, oh, gosh, all you have to do is be in the same room as Bill Clinton, you know, for a minute and you'll fall in love.

[396] So one thing that people say about him and many other people who are, quote, charismatic, is that when you're talking to them, they make you feel as if you're the only person in the room.

[397] Yes.

[398] And I think he did have that kind of rapt attention.

[399] And so I will say that when I met him, I mean, it was something like all of 12 seconds, right?

[400] Like, he thanked me, you know, he shook my hand.

[401] He took both hands in his hand.

[402] Like, you know, he used both of his hands to shake my hand.

[403] Did he kiss you on the lips?

[404] He did not kiss me. I was not his favorite intern, I guess.

[405] But he does look you in the eye.

[406] And he did do something.

[407] Now, I may be conflating this with, like, YouTube videos.

[408] I was subsequently watching on, like, how to be charismatic.

[409] Because, like I said, I find this just interesting as a scientist.

[410] He, you know, he kind of like, you make eye contact, right?

[411] Right.

[412] And it feels like he just wants to keep looking at you and like that you look away, right?

[413] Like he can't take his eyes.

[414] And his eyes are so intense that you just can't stay locked on because you're afraid you'll melt?

[415] I can't say, but I tried this out.

[416] So I'm like watching these YouTube videos now.

[417] This is fast forwarding, you know, like many years, like a couple decades later.

[418] And it was actually during my book tour.

[419] And I was, you know, sort of like both interested in charisma, but also I was like, oh, when you're when you're signing books for a line of people.

[420] people where you can only interact with people for like six or seven seconds like what advice do you have to so i'm googling charisma and here's something that i found on youtube again this is not validated scientific you know fact but it said for example when you're in a receiving line you know don't look away like you know the other they're eventually going to look away but don't be the first one to look away and i do think that's all about signaling to somebody like i want to be here you're the object of my fascination there's nothing else i want to do but listen to what you're going to say next.

[421] So did you learn to sign their book while looking at them?

[422] No, but I did try to actually not look away because I thought, well, first of I just wanted to try it and see.

[423] And I do feel like it was one of those like nonverbal cues of respect, right?

[424] Like, okay, think about the opposite.

[425] Like, you know how people, I remember this when I was in college, there would be certain people that you'd have breakfast with, you know, and you're in the cafeteria and they're kind of looking over your shoulder to see if there's someone better to like talk.

[426] I hate that.

[427] And this is just the opposite of that, right?

[428] So you're really just paying respect to the person.

[429] And did you also, I mean, if you have six or seven seconds, you know, you obviously have to be very efficient.

[430] Did you also say their names when they left?

[431] Or you mean the Dale Carnegie effect?

[432] Exactly.

[433] The power of posit.

[434] Wait, not the power of posit.

[435] How to win friends and influence people.

[436] So the Dale Carnegie effect where you say someone's name, Stephen, right?

[437] Do I do that?

[438] Well, you know, I think Dale Carnegie was right about a lot of things.

[439] And I think he's right about this one, which again, all you're doing is you're giving somebody a cue that they matter, right?

[440] And I think a lot of charisma is like this person really thinks that you matter, but it's only half of the equation, right?

[441] I think you also have to signal your high status.

[442] So, you know, it's kind of like I like you and the world likes me. Yeah.

[443] So what do you do if you're not high status?

[444] Well, I remember figuring this out in third grade a little bit for myself because we moved.

[445] So we moved from like one side of town to the other.

[446] you know, my dad got promoted, and I actually think there were railroad tracks, so maybe it's like the wrong side of the tracks to the right side of the tracks.

[447] And it was January, and, you know, it's the middle of school years.

[448] I had to make friends.

[449] And this new kind of posh, posher neighborhood where the kids were wearing designer jeans.

[450] I was just like, well, how do I do?

[451] So I actually had that problem, right?

[452] Because I had these, like, frugal parents.

[453] I wasn't wearing designer jeans.

[454] I was the new kid.

[455] There wasn't anything especially awesome about me. It wasn't very athletic.

[456] So I remember, like, explicitly thinking out loud, I think even maybe wrote it in my diary, like to make friends, you just need to communicate two things.

[457] I like you and I like me. So if you want to communicate I like you, you know, I contact, you know, mention their name, like be interested in what they're saying.

[458] How do you signal I like me, which is really a proxy for the world likes me?

[459] That actually I think is a little more like nuanced, but I think that, you know, smiling or, you know, basically not being self -deprecating.

[460] Maybe things like posture help, but I think the most effective, you know, way to do it is for somebody else to signal that you're high status or that the world likes you.

[461] So you pay people to treat you as if you're better than you are?

[462] Is that what you're saying?

[463] That would be one way.

[464] You know, I didn't have a lot of pocket money when I was in third grade.

[465] How did you signal as a third grader than that you liked yourself?

[466] I mean, the thing is, first of all, I did.

[467] I was like, you know, pretty happy.

[468] So you just put the humility out there.

[469] I just like, you know, like letting it all hang out.

[470] And I think I was like happy.

[471] I mean, I think that the people who like walk around the world and they do signal those two things.

[472] And I'm not saying it's a recipe to follow.

[473] But I do think like if you just notice the people that are attractive, it is so often that they make you feel like you're great.

[474] And they also seem to have like a healthy, you know, they have healthy self -esteem.

[475] Let me ask you one last thing on the topic of charisma.

[476] Is charisma a not.

[477] finite but limited resource in that again it runs out well no no not quite but is it is it not quite a zero -sum issue but like if there's a group of 20 people oh how many people can how can be how yeah because if everybody's charismatic that isn't nobody cares yeah i do think there is something about you know when people are like oh they stole the show i think that we use that language because there is a kind of exclusivity about charisma and that's why i say it's there's something about status.

[478] Like, you know, I met the prince, well, Prince Charles.

[479] I was very young.

[480] I was in my 20s.

[481] And I think for him to be charismatic, you know, he already had the high status part, right?

[482] So he had half the equation like, you know, just by birth and by everyone else treating him the way they were treating him.

[483] All he needed to do is the second part of the equation, which is like when he's with you, to be completely wrapped, to be just totally fascinated by what you're going to say.

[484] And he pulled it off, I will say he was genuinely charismatic.

[485] So I think there is a kind of like how many Prince Charles is can there be in the room, right?

[486] Like, you know, the moment a king walks in, he's no longer, you know, the highest -ranking person.

[487] That's so interesting.

[488] And I never thought of, like, stealing the show in that way, right?

[489] Because if you gain, somebody loses, so it is maybe not zero -sum.

[490] But so if people listening to this want to have more charisma is the easiest way to just surround yourself with people with really low charisma?

[491] you have the contrast effect i don't know because you're also trying to signal that the world loves you right so like i like you and the world likes me those are the two parts of the equation this is my little proto theory so if you really were someone that the world liked like why would you be hanging out with losers right so i like a i like how they went from nice low charisma of people to losers gosh i know look at that me being all high status and all that maybe not the most charismatic thing to say.

[492] Thanks for listening, this little stocking stuffer of an episode with Angela Duckworth.

[493] So, do you think we should do this more often as its own separate podcast?

[494] Let us know by writing to radio at Freakonomics .com.

[495] Meanwhile, coming up next time on Freakonomics Radio, there is strong evidence that exercise is wildly beneficial.

[496] There is even stronger evidence that most people hate to exercise.

[497] So, if a pill could mimic the effects of exercise, why wouldn't you want to take it?

[498] When we gave it to sedentary mice, the drug progressively activated the genetic program that is normally activated by exercise.

[499] The zero -minute workout, just in time for your New Year's resolution.

[500] It's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

[501] Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions.

[502] This episode was produced by Allison Craiglow.

[503] Our staff also includes Greg Ripon, Zach Lipinski, Matt Hickey, Daphne Chen, Harry Huggins, and Corinne Wallace.

[504] We had help this week from James Foster.

[505] Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by The Hitchhikers.

[506] All the other music was composed by Luis Gera.

[507] You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on any podcast app.

[508] Our entire archive is available exclusively on the Stitcher app or at Freakonomics .com, where we also publish show notes and transcripts and where you can sign up for our email newslet.

[509] We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

[510] Freakonomics Radio also plays on many NPR stations, so check your local station for details.

[511] And thanks for listening.

[512] Stitcher.