309 - Not Counting Is The Key: The 6th Anniversary Special!

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Favorite murder.

[2] The sixth anniversary episode.

[3] Oh, my God.

[4] What?

[5] What?

[6] What have we been doing for the past six years?

[7] Six years, just bullshitting around with some vocal fry?

[8] How dare you?

[9] So many things have happened in the past six years.

[10] Life changing, mundane, amazing, kind of cool, very cool.

[11] A pandemic.

[12] Oh, a pandemic.

[13] There's that.

[14] There's that one too, you know, so many memories.

[15] It's been a real ride.

[16] That's for sure.

[17] Yeah.

[18] I feel like we're going to look back on this in six more years and be like, why do we do this another six years?

[19] And they'd be like, talk to me at the year 10 anniversary.

[20] Yeah.

[21] Yeah.

[22] Oh, wait, no, that would have been year 12.

[23] Right.

[24] But who's counting?

[25] I think not counting is the key.

[26] Yeah.

[27] I don't fucking.

[28] I never pay attention to anniversary.

[29] My mom just texted me. Your brother's birthday is tomorrow.

[30] Like, I can't get, I cannot get anyone's birthday, even my nephews.

[31] I'm just so bad at that.

[32] Vince and I have to, like, pull his wedding ring off and look at the date inscribed in it to know when our wedding anniversary is.

[33] Well, it's good that you got that done.

[34] Then you can't.

[35] At least you know yourself well enough to be like, I need this reminder.

[36] It's who I am.

[37] Yeah.

[38] Who cares?

[39] I don't give a shit.

[40] You're thinking about other steps.

[41] Do you know what?

[42] I celebrate every fucking day.

[43] Like, it's Father's Day.

[44] That's what my dad always says.

[45] Every day is Father's Day when your grown kids want to talk to you.

[46] When you actually still communicate with your father.

[47] Yeah, it's a true celebration.

[48] I mean, it is a, that is the way to live.

[49] That's the way to be.

[50] Truly.

[51] How are you being?

[52] How are you living?

[53] How are you dealing?

[54] I'm still a little bit on vacation, so I'm doing really good.

[55] I'm really happy for you.

[56] I'm not like for 2020 I feel the difference I'm insisting upon feeling a difference I think there can be a difference I don't think we have to be the victims of our circumstances I think we can get proactive and even just the way we approach everything but that's easy for me to say because I get to smell the salt air every day so when you showed me the view from the balcony where you're saying of the beach and the palms swaying and the trees The palms swaying in the trees.

[57] Yeah, I'm going, I'm at a very special resort that's tree.

[58] There's trees planted inside palm trees.

[59] Look, it's a Dr. Seuss resort.

[60] It's fucking, all kinds of crazy things are going on.

[61] It's called the Lorax, and we all just hang around with starbelly steeches, and we get it done.

[62] I love it.

[63] No, I mean, I think, I think things have been so stressful for every person on the planet.

[64] Yeah.

[65] that the trying to be every day as Father's Day with your attitude is you got to be keep it in front of mind.

[66] Yeah, for sure.

[67] Like how grateful.

[68] You know what really helped me in the past week is talking to my therapist and being like, I have this to do list and it makes me want to take a nap.

[69] I can't fucking deal with anything.

[70] I can't do any of it.

[71] And she was like, why do you think you have to do it all at once?

[72] Mm -hmm.

[73] And so, like this is so simple.

[74] But I did one load of laundry instead of the three that I had to do.

[75] And I fucking did it.

[76] And it took me two days of turning the dryer back on and trying the drive back on.

[77] Yep.

[78] But I did a load of laundry.

[79] And it was fucking fine.

[80] I don't have to do it all at once.

[81] No, one a day.

[82] Yeah.

[83] I heard that's called it's paralysis by analysis where you just get to or perfectionism.

[84] You just get to if I can't do it all, then I shouldn't do anything at all.

[85] And that's not it.

[86] You've got to chip away.

[87] Yeah.

[88] Chip away.

[89] Paralysis by what?

[90] Nealysis.

[91] Paralysis by analysis, which means you just overthinking.

[92] It's another way of saying overthinking.

[93] Got it.

[94] I like it.

[95] Instead, we're chipping away.

[96] Like little chipmunks, chipping away.

[97] That's how we got to six years.

[98] That's right.

[99] Right?

[100] Week after week, just one week at a time.

[101] Panicking about the next week constantly.

[102] Yeah, sure.

[103] Yes.

[104] Yes, but hey, isn't that the zest of like the panic?

[105] Oh, we have to add writing a book now?

[106] Great.

[107] Let's do it.

[108] Oh, we're doing a drawer in Sydney and Australia while we're writing a book.

[109] Pile it on.

[110] Yes, the answer is yes.

[111] Shonda Rhymes, a year of yes.

[112] We're doing it.

[113] Every day is Shonda Rhymes day when you try her.

[114] That's what we say.

[115] You know we say that.

[116] That's right.

[117] Are you fucking watching the show of one of, one of my favorite books that I mentioned a million times here, which I think you read Station 11.

[118] I had started Station 11, yes.

[119] On HBO.

[120] It's really beautifully done, except for they got to the part where the traveling theater group where I was like, this is too much like college.

[121] I have to dip.

[122] Sorry, got to go.

[123] It's so like college.

[124] And like in the book, they're like, you know, first violin has beef with second flute because he once said this thing about that.

[125] like, you know, the fucking actor from Shakespeare used to fuck third guitar, and so they don't talk to each other anymore.

[126] Like, there's just so much even in the end days, there's beef.

[127] Of course.

[128] And drama.

[129] Yeah.

[130] But no, everyone I know, especially writers, love it and talk about it a lot.

[131] So I know I have to keep going.

[132] And McKenzie, what's her last name?

[133] Phillips, Powers, Austin Powers.

[134] McKenzie Austin Powers.

[135] McKenzie Davis?

[136] Mackenzie Davis.

[137] That's right, Stephen.

[138] Thank you.

[139] Mackenzie Davis is so fucking incredible in it.

[140] Yeah, she's great.

[141] She's such an incredible actor, a sector, and the little girl who plays her as a little girl.

[142] Oh, I love it.

[143] And it's not even true to the book, which usually, of course, drives assholes like me crazy, but I still, it's still like works and it's perfect.

[144] Yeah.

[145] But read the book.

[146] It's, well, it's beautifully shot.

[147] I don't know the book, but from what I experienced, the first episode hooked me right in.

[148] And then I went right along.

[149] But also, and this is the kind of thing to keep in mind, if you're in a pandemic and you're watching a show about apocalyptic end days, you have to, you know, go gently into that bad night.

[150] I could understand why people would be hesitant to watch it.

[151] But it doesn't feel like now.

[152] It feels like, you know, good.

[153] Different.

[154] Of Jeevan.

[155] Hymish Patel, who plays the character Jeevan in it, is who's, who's, like the initial guy who tries to save the dude on stage who was also in that movie yesterday where everyone forgets the Beatles existed and he he's so fucking good I yeah he's great a crush on him he's like such a great actor he's really good and he's really good in that show yeah love him yeah good job everybody good job love it had to say it I want to tell you about podcast I just stumbled on it's real short it's really satisfied fine.

[156] I heard about it from my friend and Donahue, the Pride of Canada and Donahue.

[157] Of course.

[158] It's a podcast called Sweet Bobby.

[159] And it is a catfishing story unlike anything you've ever heard in your life.

[160] It's...

[161] Holy shit.

[162] It's really something and you have to listen to it.

[163] And it's the host is Alexi Mastris.

[164] I hope I'm saying his name right.

[165] It's really great.

[166] What's the like, can you give us a like a brief?

[167] I know you probably don't want to do any spoilers, but like a little giveaway.

[168] I'm not going to do any spoilers.

[169] It's just someone gets catfished.

[170] And the host Alexi actually says it in the beginning.

[171] I'm about to do the thing you should never do in a suspenseful story.

[172] I'm going to tell you right now she's being catfished.

[173] Because that's how not even that.

[174] That's not the shock.

[175] It's like it's really worth listening to and hearing the story because again it goes into why do people do what they do.

[176] It reminds me about watching a TV show in the pandemic, about a pandemic, and that would be hard.

[177] But I'm so afraid of catfishing that it's almost like hard to watch a catfishing or listen to a catfishing story.

[178] Horrible.

[179] It's your most vulnerable.

[180] You think whatever it is, you think you're falling in love with a person who isn't that.

[181] That's everyone's fear.

[182] Yeah.

[183] Like we all have trust issues in whatever way.

[184] And that's that kind of thing where they're telling you everything you want to hear.

[185] and you think this is it, I've finally met this person.

[186] And that's not even a real person.

[187] I love the stories that we're all coming to, like all of us kids who were raised, you know, who grew up in the 90s and early 2000s at the beginning of having like real access to the internet and realizing that our best friend from Florida who we used to chat on AIM with all day and all night because they were just like us was not a 14 year old girl like you who just wanted to escape her small town it was a creepy fucking dude yeah oh sorry belinda doesn't exist yes i mean that's i never had to experience that i was so past that i was too old for that kind of growing up online thing yeah so this story to me is even more shocking because it's like oh jesus christ yes this is yeah okay what's it called again it's called sweet bobby Okay, I'm listening right now.

[188] Really good.

[189] Goodbye.

[190] Hey, Karen.

[191] Do you know the podcast?

[192] Do you need a ride?

[193] It sounds familiar.

[194] Well, this week, the incredible hosts have none other than Gareth Reynolds of podcasting fame from the Dallet podcast on.

[195] And, God, I freaking love that guy.

[196] He's so funny.

[197] He's a real gem.

[198] He's very good of podcasting.

[199] There's also, this podcast will kill you.

[200] They're covering endometriosis this week.

[201] such an important topic.

[202] And then Bananas has an exactly right crossover episode this week by having the guest be Alex and Elizabeth from the True Beauty Brooklyn podcast, which is also on exactly right.

[203] And if you want to go fucking deep into the Matrix, this week's True Beauty Brooklyn podcast guest is Dr. Dan from the Parent Footprint Podcast, which is also on exactly right.

[204] That's right.

[205] Jesus rabbit whole time.

[206] also we've got some merch there's a new uran occult t -shirt design that we really enjoy that you might want to go take a look at it's cool it's cool karen you know i'm all about vintage shopping absolutely and when you say vintage you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash exactly and if you're a small business owner you might know shopify is great for online sales but did you know that they also power in -person sales?

[207] That's right.

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[209] Give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[210] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in -person.

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[214] sales and if you're a business owner you can too connect with customers in line and online do retail right with shopify sign up for a one dollar per month trial period at shopify dot com slash murder important note that promo code is all lowercase go to shopify dot com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today that's shopify dot com slash murder goodbye all right all right well shall we get started with our six year anniversary episode are you ready to do it Are you ready to show your work six years' worth?

[215] Oh, my God.

[216] It'll look insane.

[217] Okay.

[218] I think I go first this week.

[219] Okay.

[220] And this week I'm covering the murder of Andrea Bowman.

[221] Okay.

[222] This one is, I had not heard of it.

[223] It's not famous.

[224] There's a little famous element to it, but it's a pretty compelling, pretty upsetting story, as they all are.

[225] That's what we're here for.

[226] Yep.

[227] So the sources for this story are, The Adivist magazine had an article called The Girl in the Picture by Nile Capello.

[228] There's a Fox 17 West Michigan article by Carrie Haringa and Michael Martin, the Holland Sentinel.

[229] There's an article by Carolyn Miskins.

[230] There's the Charlie Project Archives.

[231] And there's an oxygen article by Gina Tron about it.

[232] And there's an AP article.

[233] There's the Wikipedia page of The Murder of Andre.

[234] Bowman.

[235] There's multiple Holland Sentinel articles by Carolyn Muskins.

[236] There's a News Channel 3 article by Samantha May, and there is an article by Austin Denean and Angeline McCall for Fox 17 West Michigan.

[237] And there's an inside edition article with no byline about the murder of Kathleen O 'Brien Doyle.

[238] So this starts, it takes place in Holland, Michigan in the fall of 1988 and 14 -year -old Andrea Bowman suddenly starts hanging around school long after the school day has ended.

[239] She eventually confides in her teachers that she's actually afraid to go home.

[240] So the school staff calls police and social services.

[241] And when they question Andrea, she tells them her father, Dennis Bowman, has been sexually assaulting her.

[242] So a social worker and a police officer escort Andrea home to confront Andrea's parents, Dennis and Brenda, who flatly deny their daughter's accusations.

[243] And they actually explained to authorities, Andrea recently found out that she was adopted and that they believe that this is just a rebellious kind of phase based on learning that information and she's kind of going through it.

[244] So they basically say their daughter's lying and that this is just, you know, this is her rebelling.

[245] Now, Andre has been known as a rebellious kid in the past and that she's run away once before and gone and stayed at her friend's house.

[246] So this rationale actually satisfies the police and social services.

[247] But that means she was trying to escape her parents again.

[248] Yes.

[249] Yes, exactly.

[250] You're not a bad kid.

[251] She's fucking leaving her home.

[252] She's trying to get out of a horrible situation.

[253] But I think it, yeah.

[254] So I got it.

[255] It works.

[256] And the adults are believed and the children are not believed.

[257] And essentially they leave Andrea at the Bowman's house and nothing happens.

[258] Soon afterwards, the family moves from their house in Holland to a trailer that's kind of way outside of town in Allegan County, Michigan.

[259] So then on Saturday, March 11, 1989, while Brenda's at work, so this is like roughly six months later, Dennis Bowman comes home from visiting family that weekend to find that Andrea, who was supposed to have stayed at home to do homework, isn't there.

[260] In fact, she's nowhere to be found.

[261] Dennis calls Brenda at work to tell her this news.

[262] The two then contact the police to report Andrea missing.

[263] Dennis says he believes Andrea stole $100 from his bedroom dresser before packing her bag and running away.

[264] And the police opened an investigation into Andrea's disappearance, and they classify her as an endangered runaway.

[265] So we'll talk about her a little bit.

[266] Andrea Michelle Bowman, whose birth name was Alexis Miranda Badger, is born on June 23rd, 1974 in New Orleans.

[267] to her 16 -year -old biological mother, Kathy Turcanian.

[268] So both Kathy and her 19 -year -old husband, Randy, they've left their own, like, dysfunctional home lives to make a new life together in New Orleans.

[269] Kathy's determined to give her daughter a better childhood than the one that she had, but after a few months of raising Alexis as basically a teen mother, her teen husband Randy starts cheating on her and neglecting the baby, and it all kind of falls apart.

[270] So with no other options, Kathy leaves Randy and goes back to her hometown in Virginia to live with her mother.

[271] But her mother doesn't help Kathy with this baby.

[272] She's constantly telling Kathy that she can't raise Alexis on her own.

[273] And basically, Kathy becomes convinced of that.

[274] She's worried her mother's right.

[275] So she decides the right thing to do would be to give Alexis up for adoption when she's just five months old in the hope that someone else can give her daughter the life that she's.

[276] she deserves.

[277] Yeah.

[278] So Alexa spends 16 months in foster care until Dennis and Brenda Bowman, who at the time are living in Virginia, adopt her in 1976.

[279] And they rename her, Andrea Michelle Bowman.

[280] And soon after, they moved to West Michigan.

[281] So then in January of 1988, the beginning of the year where the problems start for Andrea at school, Brenda gives birth to a baby girl named Vanessa.

[282] And 14 -year -old Andrea is very protective of her little sister, and she spends her free time caring for the baby as if it were her own.

[283] And Andrea has reason to be protective of her little sister because in 1980, when Andrea was just six years old, Dennis Bowman is arrested for the attempted rape of a 19 -year -old woman.

[284] Oh, my God.

[285] This woman tells police that Dennis forced her a gunpoint into a wooded area in West Michigan and threatened to, quote, blow a hole right through her if she didn't do what he.

[286] He said, luckily, right in that moment, a passing car distracts Dennis, and this woman is able to jump on her bicycle and get away and go to the police.

[287] Holy shit.

[288] He's arrested the same day, and this woman immediately identifies him in a lineup.

[289] Dennis ends up cutting a deal with the prosecutors.

[290] He pleads guilty to assault with intent to commit criminal sexual conduct, and he's sentenced to five to ten years in prison.

[291] He serves the minimum of five years.

[292] He's released in 1986.

[293] and he's still on parole when Andrea disappears in 1989.

[294] So rumors swore around town that Andrea had been physically, potentially, like allegedly physically abused at home.

[295] When she was in middle school, there's kids that say that one day she got on the bus and she was bleeding, her wrist was bleeding, and they weren't sure if it was self -harm or some heard that it was because she was trying to break back into her house after her parents locked her out.

[296] No matter what, the stories are disturbing.

[297] There's clearly something going on in that house.

[298] But given the era and the general mindset of this Michigan town, people minded their own business.

[299] No one looks into it.

[300] No one questions the Bowman's about it.

[301] That's such a crazy little detail right there.

[302] She claimed she was being sexually assaulted.

[303] They bring her home and the dad is on parole for attempted sexual assault and they still don't believe her.

[304] Yes.

[305] They don't connect it.

[306] Yeah.

[307] It's like they're not looking into it or the parents are so convincing that they don't think to look into it.

[308] I mean, the fact that those things weren't, weren't that that wasn't linked.

[309] I mean, because it's the late 80s.

[310] So there's not computer systems.

[311] There's no internet.

[312] Yeah.

[313] It's not, they would have to have all those files, you know, they would have to know.

[314] Right, right.

[315] Okay.

[316] So in the weeks following, Andrea's disappearance, Dennis and Brenda, Brenda, move once again from that trailer outside of town to a new house in Hamilton, Michigan.

[317] And over the next few months, Brenda calls around to Andrea's friends.

[318] She's asking them if anyone has seen her, and they all say no. She also makes several phone calls to the police saying she's gotten tips from people saying that they've spotted Andrea around town.

[319] Police look into every tip that Brenda gives them.

[320] None of these sightings are ever verified.

[321] So now it's 1993, and Andrea has been missing for four.

[322] years.

[323] So this is the year that the band Soul Asylum releases the music video for the song Runaway Train, which if you grew up in this time, you know this video was a song about missing children and the video actually featured photos of 36 children who were missing at the time.

[324] And Andrea Bowman is one of those kids that's featured in the video.

[325] Oh my God.

[326] This video is on constant rotation, on music video channels, and this video leads to finding 25 of the 36 missing kids.

[327] Holy shit.

[328] Which is amazing and, like, what a beautiful thing the Soul Asylum did for those families and for those kids.

[329] But sadly, Andrea is not one of the kids that gets found.

[330] Her case remains unsolved and eventually goes cold.

[331] So then in 1998, Dennis Bowman is.

[332] caught breaking and entering the home of his former co -worker, 20 -year -old Vicki Brink in Ottawa County, Michigan.

[333] So Vicki's had several break -ins at her house, so she installed a security system.

[334] And when the alarm goes off, a police officer arrives to find Dennis Bowman exiting her back door.

[335] He tells the officer that he's been staying with Vicki.

[336] The officer believes him and lets him go.

[337] Yeah.

[338] No, without even asking her?

[339] I don't know if she's not It seems like she's not there So it takes second So when she goes When Vicky tells the officer Dennis is lying They go to Dennis's home They search his property They find a duffel bag containing Vicky's stolen lingerie A black sweatshirt A mask and a short barreled shotgun Oh fuck Yeah So Dennis is arrested on the spot He pleads guilty to the breaking And entering charge But not before giving the court letters from several people defending his character.

[340] Ew.

[341] And those letters are from his boss, a member of his church, his sex offender group counselor, the principal at his daughter Vanessa's school, and his wife, Brenda.

[342] Yeah.

[343] Never defend someone.

[344] You just don't know.

[345] He also writes the judge a letter himself, in which he says, quote, I am the father of two lovely daughters, 1 .25, the other 11, and I feel that being a parent is one of the most important and sobering things a person can undertake, end quote.

[346] Fuck you, dude.

[347] Oh, my God, I hate his guts.

[348] He fails to mention that 25 -year -old daughter he's talking about has been missing for 10 years.

[349] So these character testimonials actually end up helping less than Dennis's sentence for this crime.

[350] Okay, so then in 2009, an amateur forensic sketch artist in El Segundo, California, named Carliners.

[351] Carl Koppelman is scrolling through Namas, which is the national database of missing persons and unidentified bodies, when he comes across a Racine County Jane Doe.

[352] So this Jane Doe is found in a Wisconsin cornfield in 1999.

[353] She'd suffered broken bones and there were signs of sexual assaults, but a combination of rain and decay made it difficult for authorities to determine an exact cause of death or identify the body.

[354] So when Copleman plugs this Jane Doe's basic traits into Namis, her hazel green eyes, her pierced ears, the short reddish -brown hair, he gets a close match to Andrea Bowman.

[355] The Doe's approximate age at the time of her death aligns with the age of Andrea what she would have been in 1999, which is 25 years old, plus the location where this Jane Doe was found is a four -hour drive from where Andrea was last seen.

[356] So this is all enough to prompt investigators to start looking.

[357] at this cold case again.

[358] But they need a relative's DNA to see if they've ever seen County Jane Doe is, in fact, Andrea.

[359] So authorities tracked down her birth mother, Kathy Turcanian.

[360] Wow.

[361] When they talked to her in 2010, Kathy's life is completely different than the one she was living when she was a teen mother who was forced to give up her child.

[362] Now she's graduated from nursing school and she lives a very comfortable life with her new husband in Massachusetts.

[363] She'd always wondered about Alexis, her daughter Alexis, who's now Andrea, and she'd always hoped that she was happy.

[364] So getting a letter saying that her daughter may have been murdered is, of course, shocking and heartbreaking.

[365] That's just so sad that, like, you think giving a child up to have a better life, and then someone wanting a kid and stepping up and adopting, they'd still be monsters, you know?

[366] Yeah.

[367] It's a worst -case scenario.

[368] Yeah.

[369] As for someone who's trying to do the right thing for this baby because they love them so much.

[370] Totally.

[371] So, of course, Kathy's more than willing to provide a DNA sample, but she also wants to know more about what happened to her daughter.

[372] So she scours the web for answers.

[373] And she sets up a Facebook page and a classmates .com page for Andrea to gather information.

[374] And she and Carl Koppelman end up connecting through that classmates .com page.

[375] And as Carl and other amateur detectives interested in Andrea's case provide more information about the Bowman's, Kathy decides to submit a Freedom of Information Act request to learn more about Dennis Bowman's record, essentially.

[376] And when she learns about these crimes, she immediately suspects he's involved with Andrea's disappearance.

[377] But she knows that she has to find proof.

[378] And then she's dealt another blow, those DNA results that came back on the receiving case.

[379] County Jane Doe, it's not Andrea.

[380] No. Right.

[381] The bodies later identified as a young woman named Peggy Johnson, but Kathy really believes that Dennis Bowman has something to do with Andrea's disappearance.

[382] And she's now determined to figure out what happened to her daughter.

[383] So Kathy and Carl Koppelman continue their web sleuth investigation.

[384] They go to Michigan together several times to talk to the police about the case.

[385] They search for old acquaintances who might have more information, and they also go and scope out the Bowman's house.

[386] And from a distance, they can see the backyard of the Bowman's house, and Kathy spots a patch of cement on the property.

[387] Yeah, and she is so afraid that her daughter could be buried underneath it.

[388] Oh, my God.

[389] So in September of 2013, Carl and Kathy attend a missing person's event organized by local law enforcement called Missing in Michigan and during one of the group sessions Kathy and Carl spot Brenda and her daughter Vanessa.

[390] No. Brenda Bowman.

[391] Brenda tentatively approaches Kathy because she's aware of these accusations that Kathy's been making about her husband on Facebook and elsewhere online.

[392] Yeah.

[393] And this turns into a confrontation which turns into a screaming match.

[394] Kathy demands that Brenda tell the truth about her husband.

[395] Brenda defends Dennis, of course, saying that they did everything they could to cooperate with police and to try and find Andrea.

[396] It's just a horrible.

[397] It's like worst case scenario for something, an event like that where they're trying to solve problems.

[398] It's horrible.

[399] Oh, my God.

[400] So meanwhile, now, while all that's going on, cold case investigators in Virginia are making headway on a seemingly unrelated case.

[401] the 1980 unsolved murder of a woman named Kathleen O 'Brien Doyle.

[402] So Kathleen was a 25 -year -old aspiring novelist, and she was the daughter of a U .S. naval officer who was married to a Navy pilot.

[403] So Kathleen's husband was deployed in 1980, leaving her alone in their Norfolk, Virginia home, and there she was found raped, bound, and murdered.

[404] So in 1983, the police thought they had their culprit when serial killer, this stupid motherfucker, Henry Lee Lucas, confessed to her murder.

[405] Motherfucker.

[406] But when DNA testing proved that to be a lie, Kathleen's case ran cold.

[407] But as genetic testing technology starts to improve in the 2000s, cold case investigators run Kathleen's crime scene DNA samples through their new DNA database system, and they get a list of 30 potential suspects.

[408] Wow.

[409] And now all they need to do is collect the DNA from each of the suspects to see if they can confirm a match to someone on that list.

[410] That seems like a huge undertaking.

[411] Yeah, that's quite a job.

[412] Okay.

[413] So in 2019, and this is how much these cold case investigators stayed on this, it's pretty amazing, they meet detectives from Michigan at a conference.

[414] And when they show the Michigan detectives the suspect list from Kathleen's murder case, the Michigan investigators immediately recognize one of the names, Dennis Bowman.

[415] Wow.

[416] When they put the timeline together, they discover Bowman was still living in Michigan at the time of Kathleen's murder.

[417] In fact, that's when he was out on bail and awaiting trial for the attempted rape of the 19 -year -old West Michigan woman.

[418] So Kathleen O 'Brien Doyle's murder took place while Dennis was on a two -week leave for his Navy Reserve Service requirement that he was fulfilling.

[419] while he's out on bail, he goes to do his Navy Reserve Service, and then he's on leave for that service.

[420] And this is all taking place in Norfolk, Virginia.

[421] Oh, for fuck sake.

[422] And it turns out, but this is the part I really love, getting Dennis's DNA turns out to be easier than the Virginia investigators could have imagined, because it turns out that Brenda and Dennis had gone to the Holland, Michigan police station a couple years prior to.

[423] to complain about the online harassment from Kathy Turcanian.

[424] Mm -hmm.

[425] So while they're at the police station to lodge that complaint, the police offered Dennis a bottle of water.

[426] Yes.

[427] Which he took and drank and left there without a second thought.

[428] And those cops saved that bottle.

[429] Yeah.

[430] And they kept Dennis's DNA sample on files.

[431] So when Virginia - They fucking knew they will find something eventually.

[432] They fucking knew it.

[433] They knew.

[434] They knew that he'd already been.

[435] prosecuted for sexual assault a couple times.

[436] They're like, let's just slip this in the back pocket.

[437] Yeah, we might as well.

[438] In the room.

[439] Oh, my God.

[440] Someone was very smart.

[441] Yeah.

[442] So when Virginia investigators test the sample, they find a direct match to the DNA found at the scene of Kathleen's murder.

[443] Oh, my God.

[444] So on November 22nd, 2019, Michigan police in cooperation with the Virginia authorities raid the now 72 -year -old Dennis Bowman's home and arrest him.

[445] And he admits to Kathleen's murder, but he claims he only meant to rob her, but when he saw her there, she surprised him, and he decided that he had to kill her.

[446] It's her fault for surprising him.

[447] Right.

[448] Yes, exactly.

[449] He was so innocent as that he was only going to rob her, even though he has a history of assault and rape.

[450] Fucking piece of shit.

[451] Dennis pleads guilty on June 10th, 2020, to the first degree murder and robbery.

[452] rape of Kathleen O 'Brien Doyle, as well as to a related burglary charge.

[453] And he's given two life sentences for her murder and an additional 20 years for that burglary charge.

[454] But Kathy Turcanian still wants justice for her daughter.

[455] Yeah.

[456] And luckily, it doesn't take long for her to get it.

[457] Because while behind bars, Dennis Bowman starts copying to more crimes.

[458] What?

[459] The first one he confesses to is the 1979 rape of an unnamed 27 -year -old Michigan woman.

[460] Apparently, he broke into her home, bound and gagged her, then raped and robbed her.

[461] And although she was able to give a thorough description of her assailant, Dennis had never been caught.

[462] And then sometime around December, 2019, or January 2020, in a written confession as well as in a phone conversation with his wife, Brenda, Dennis finally admits to killing Andrea.

[463] Yep.

[464] Yep.

[465] He claims, again, he claims it was an accident.

[466] His story is that when he came home on March 11th, 1989, Andrea threatened to tell more people that he had been molesting her.

[467] And they argued.

[468] And in the heat of the moment, according to Dennis, he slapped her, knocked her down the stairs.

[469] And in that fall, she broke her neck.

[470] So then because he was afraid of the authorities, of course, he takes his daughter's body to a remote barn.

[471] dismembers her and burns her clothes.

[472] Then he hides the remains under a tarp until the Bowman's move into their new home in Hamilton, where he buries her remains in the backyard and covers her grave with a thin layer of cement, which is the exact same slab of cement that Kathy spotted and suspected was the site of her daughter's burial.

[473] She was right.

[474] Kathy was right.

[475] Oh, my God.

[476] So when police dig up the cemented area, they find human.

[477] remains.

[478] And when they run DNA tests, it is confirmed that the remains are Andrea Bowman's.

[479] And Brenda Bowman is completely shocked by this discovery.

[480] Truly, she had no idea that her daughter's remains, her adoptive daughter's remains, were buried in her own backyard for nearly 30 years.

[481] So this woman who was defending her husband, who was trying, you know, thinking that she was fighting the good fight and that it's so sad.

[482] So the first hearing for Andrea's murder takes place February of 2021.

[483] So basically a year ago.

[484] Brenda admits that when Andrea was alive at this hearing, she admits that Andrea confided in her that Dennis was molesting her and that she didn't or couldn't believe what her daughter was telling her and she confesses that she told Andrea, that's a lie and you know it.

[485] When I hear these stories, I mean, I think everyone, it's so heartbreaking and so unfortunately we hear it over and over again.

[486] It's so sad.

[487] Like, you're citing with your husband rather than your daughter.

[488] Why would she make that up?

[489] It's so, it's awful.

[490] It's just so sad.

[491] So that trial got delayed by COVID.

[492] Of course, it gets rescheduled for January 11th, 2022.

[493] That's tomorrow.

[494] Okay.

[495] I was just going to look down to my computer like, what day is it?

[496] Oh, so when this comes up on Thursday, it'll have happened already.

[497] Yeah.

[498] But on Wednesday, December 22nd of last year, Dennis pled no contest to the second degree murder.

[499] His sentencing takes place next month on the seventh.

[500] and Kathy Turcanian plans to be there.

[501] Hell, yeah.

[502] Of course.

[503] She's also planning on working to obtain custody of Andrea's remains.

[504] Kathy still calls her Alexis, by the way, her birth name.

[505] Of course.

[506] Because Kathy wants to arrange the funeral and give her daughter a proper burial.

[507] And that is the tragic story of the murder of Andrea Bowman.

[508] Wow.

[509] Wow.

[510] That's such a banana story.

[511] I had never heard that.

[512] Yeah, me either.

[513] It's so heartbreaking.

[514] It's just so heartbreaking.

[515] Yeah.

[516] All right.

[517] Well, great job.

[518] Thank you.

[519] Thank you for sharing that.

[520] Okay.

[521] Well, let's take a lefty, shall we?

[522] Okay.

[523] And go to one of the topics I like, which is the where it came from things.

[524] And this is the history of the insanity defense.

[525] Cool.

[526] Okay, so the sources used for today's episode are a PBS frontline documentary, Cornell Law School, an Indian Journal of Psychiatry article written by TV ASO -Can, the University of Missouri, Kansas City School of Law, and a Psychology Today article written by Dr. Susan J. Lewis.

[527] So we hear, Karen, I'm sure you know, about the insanity defense a lot in true crime and on TV shows and movies, but only 1 % of all defendants ever plead not guilty by reason of insanity, which is tiny, and only 25 % of those defendants are successful in using the defense.

[528] So what exactly is the insanity defense?

[529] Well, according to Cornell Law School, when a defendant uses the insanity defense, they're admitting to the crime but are asserting a lack of culpability based on mental illness.

[530] And it's an excuse rather than a justification defense.

[531] So the idea that someone shouldn't be held responsible for their actions due to their mental state, a .k .a. the insanity defense has been around since the 1500s, but it wasn't until the 1800s that a court actually came up with a test on how to determine a defendants in Sanby.

[532] In 1843, a Scotsman named Daniel M. Natten.

[533] So it's M. apostrophe noton, which is confusing.

[534] that's a new that's a new yeah kind of name sure am you put an apostrophe in your name you're fucking fanciest shit right it's like they're not going to bother with that little C Monotin he's on trial in England for the murder of Prime Minister Sir Robert Peel's secretary Edward Drummond Monotan's attorney tells the jury that he should be acquitted because he's insane and has been for years they tell the jury that two years prior to the murder, Manotin told the police that the Tories were harassing him, that they followed him everywhere he went, and he said that they, quote, do everything in their power to harass and persecute him and that they wanted to murder him.

[535] An entire political, yes, group is harassing him.

[536] This one man, yes.

[537] So obviously, that's not true.

[538] He's having, what's it called, delusions.

[539] His paranoia continued to grow over the next two years to the point where he, decided that in order to end this harassment that he was delusional about, he had to kill the Tory Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel.

[540] So on June 20th, 1843, Monoton waits outside of Peel's house with a gun, and then a man comes out of the house and starts walking down the street, and Monotin walks up behind him and shoots the man in the back, thinking it's Peel.

[541] And he does it in front of a bunch of witnesses.

[542] He's not trying to, like, keep it secret.

[543] it fires the gun and then it turns out that it wasn't Peel, but his secretary, Edward Drummond.

[544] Oh, I know what a bummer, right.

[545] The defense tells the jury that while awaiting trial, Monoton was examined by multiple psychiatrists, one of which Dr. Edward Monroe testifies that Monotin's delusions are real to him and the things he thought were at least actually happening to him.

[546] So other psychiatrists testify for the defense saying, that Menotin is insane.

[547] Even the two psychiatrists called by the Crown, you know, the prosecution, say that Monotin is insane.

[548] So he's acquitted in his order to spend the rest of his life in an institution.

[549] The court and press are super fucking pissed about this verdict.

[550] They don't feel like monotin is insane enough to get away with murder.

[551] They're basically thinking he's getting away with murder and like making up an excuse.

[552] Queen Victoria asked the House of Lords to come up with a set of her requirements, a defendant must meet in order to be found legally insane.

[553] And so this set of requirements becomes known as the monotin rule.

[554] According to Cornell Law School, the monotan rule requires that a defendant has to prove one of the following two things.

[555] At the time of committing the crime, the defendant was either, quote, laboring under such a defect of reason from disease of the mind as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing.

[556] or two, quote, if he did know that he did not know what he was doing was wrong.

[557] So the Monotin rule really stresses the idea of a defendant knowing right from wrong at the time of the crime.

[558] And so the fact that Monotin did this in front of a bunch of witnesses says that he wasn't aware that it was wrong.

[559] And because of this, it's now much harder for someone to be found insane in the eyes of the law because of these two rules.

[560] For example, if these requirements existed when Monotin himself was at trial, he would not have even been acquitted, so the laws don't even pertain to the person it was named after.

[561] Following the creation of the Monotan rule in England, courts in the United States adopt the rules for themselves, but by the mid -20th century, some states realize that the rule is missing something, which is that it doesn't take into consideration someone's ability to control their actions.

[562] At the time, the defendant may know right from wrong, but they are not able to.

[563] stop themselves from acting.

[564] So if that's the case, then there's nothing in the monotten rule to allow the defendant to be acquitted.

[565] So to take care of this issue, some states started using an irresistible impulse test in addition to the monotten rule.

[566] This test basically boils down to the simple question of, would the defendant have committed the crime even if there were policemen standing at his elbow?

[567] Mm -hmm.

[568] If the answer is yes, then they should be acquitted.

[569] So after a couple iterations of, like, rules and laws that are changed, federal judges order that the monotent rules be replaced by the moral penal code, or MPC.

[570] So the American Law Institute published the MPC rule, which basically combined the monotin rule with the irresistible impulse test, then added in the medical and psychiatric angle.

[571] It says that a defendant cannot be held criminally responsible if at the time in question, quote, he lacks.

[572] substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to confirm sorry, that's boring, who cares?

[573] No, because these are the, it's like the little details of drive down how they figured out how to get to this in the first place, which is a thing that at this point people have exploited.

[574] But in the beginning it had these really good intentions.

[575] Yeah.

[576] You know.

[577] It's also that people exploit it, but people also are like when it actually works people don't believe it which is like well there's actually like really strict rules to use it so if it does happen then you should believe it it's not like they're fucking letting any asshole use it right completely and you know what it makes me think of too is the Sacramento vampire Richard what's his name where yes he thought his insides were you know he was truly he had gone as my mother used to love to say organic in the brain like he he the reality he was living right was not the reality we were all living and he was doing things yeah that seemed that made sense in that very screwed up world that his brain had been showing him totally he believed what he was having delusions about a hundred percent i feel like the same thing and a lot of people argue with andrea yates you know which is such a we would never cover that it's like horrible and you you you know she it's what she did is her But based on what we've read, it's she, she was not in her fucking same mind.

[578] And also this is that extreme postpartum, right, a thing that never gets talked about, of course, because it happens to women.

[579] So it's only, it's in 2021 where people finally start actually talking about, yes, this has happened to me. You know, the ultimate shame is that you're not a good mother.

[580] Totally.

[581] Or like, you're not also like, I love being a mother.

[582] It's the best.

[583] Everything about it.

[584] And it's like, no, everyone knows.

[585] is it kind of sucks for the first year.

[586] Do they?

[587] I don't know.

[588] It's just me. It's just me. Sorry.

[589] That's your personal theory.

[590] That's your personal delusion.

[591] It's my first solution.

[592] Okay.

[593] Substantial capacity.

[594] Around half the states adopt some form of the MPC rule while the other half continue to use a form of the monotun rule.

[595] Then everything changes again on June 21st, 1988.

[596] when a jury acquits John Hinkley, Jr., after he attempted to assassinate then -President Ronald Reagan.

[597] So just a really quick recap on March 30th, 1981, President Reagan, and there's fucking film of this, right?

[598] Yes, I've seen it.

[599] It's crazy.

[600] Yeah.

[601] He's leaving the Hilton Hotel in Washington, D .C. He just spoke at a conference, so everyone's fucking just living their lives.

[602] Hinkley was in the crowd and was able to fire six shots at Reagan before he was knocked to the ground.

[603] And none of the bullets hit Reagan directly, but one ricocheted off the presidential limo and struck him in the chest, puncturing lung and causing internal bleeding.

[604] Reagan almost died, but was saved during surgery and released from the hospital almost two weeks later.

[605] What's weird about that is I didn't realize he was hit.

[606] I thought he walked away from that, like, our friend Gerald Ford and all the times people try to designate him.

[607] I think what happened, Yeah, because I think what happened was they don't think he's hit.

[608] He gets in the car and they drive away, right?

[609] And like he feels some pain, like a sharp pain in his armpit.

[610] And they realized, like, they didn't even know he was hit until he was like, what's this and pulls his jacket up and there's like blood.

[611] Crazy, right?

[612] Yeah.

[613] So during the attack, three other people were shot.

[614] Police officer Thomas De LaHanty and Secret Service agent Timothy McCarthy.

[615] They're wounded.

[616] They make full recoveries, but sadly, press secretary, James Brady, is permanently paralyzed.

[617] Yeah.

[618] So at Hinkley's trial, the jury was told that Hinkley was insane at the time of the attempted assassination.

[619] He was suffering from delusions where he believed Jody Foster, actress Jody Foster was in love with him.

[620] Years prior, Hinkley had become obsessed with Foster after watching the movie Taxi Driver, which obviously it's about Robert De Niro trying to save.

[621] of Jody Foster's character, a 12 -year -old girl from being sex trafficked.

[622] And at one point in the movie, De Niro's character tries to assassinate a U .S. senator who's running for president.

[623] And so Hinkley starts stalking Jody Foster after this, follows her around, writes her letters, even was able to call her.

[624] And when she said she wasn't interested, Hinkley decided he need to become famous to get her to fall in love with him.

[625] And that's when he decided to be like De Niro's character and assassinate a politician.

[626] Following Hinkley's acquittal, the public is fucking outraged.

[627] You know, obviously you can't fucking assassinate a sitting president.

[628] They think that Hinkley's found some loophole in the system and they refuse to believe that being obsessed with an actor is the same thing as being insane.

[629] Many politicians and members of the public call for the insanity defense to be abolished.

[630] On the other side, psychiatrists say it shouldn't be abolished, just revised.

[631] Because obviously there's people who truly need it, and so it needs to be in place.

[632] And he qualifies, Hinkley qualifies old school style where if there was a cop at your side, which there, he was shooting into a crowd of cops.

[633] Literally.

[634] That's a very interesting point.

[635] Yeah.

[636] Also, and here's my other point that's not really related, but one of my favorite band names of all time is Jody Foster's Army.

[637] Have you ever heard of that band?

[638] No. JFA.

[639] I wonder.

[640] if they were Bay Area, but they were, I'm sure, punk.

[641] And they, the first time it was like JFA stickers everywhere.

[642] And then I saw that it was Jody Foster's army.

[643] And I was like, I don't care what kind of music they make.

[644] This is my favorite band.

[645] Oh my God.

[646] That's get T -shirts.

[647] Yep.

[648] Go to their, wear their t -shirts to their concerts.

[649] Okay.

[650] In 1984, Congress answers the call to what the fuck do we do about this with the Insanity Defense Reform Act where a compromise is made.

[651] So the insanity defense isn't abolished, but it does become more strict.

[652] The MPC rules thrown out.

[653] My Norton rule is put back in place.

[654] This guy, man, fucking historic.

[655] He lives.

[656] Yeah.

[657] In addition, a defendant can still present evidence of a mental disease or defect, but now he has to also prove that it is severe.

[658] So, like, I can't go in and be like, I've been in therapy since I was a kid.

[659] Therefore, I didn't know what I was doing when I killed someone.

[660] Like, that doesn't work.

[661] At the time of the murder.

[662] you have to be totally, et cetera.

[663] However, a defendant could no longer use irresistible impulse as part of their defense.

[664] A few other revisions are made, for example, so the prosecution had the burden of proof before to prove that the defendant was sane.

[665] So it was their job to be like, blah.

[666] But now the defendant has to prove that he was insane at the time of the crime, which is probably a lot harder, or a lot, you know, Here's an example of the insanity defense being used and working the case of Lorena Bobbitt.

[667] You know this.

[668] So on June 23rd, 1993 in Manassas, Virginia, in the middle of the frickin' night, Lorena Bobbitt, who's 24, cuts off the penis of her sleeping husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, who's 26.

[669] Ooh, you look, you're cringing.

[670] It's very upsetting.

[671] Yeah.

[672] I hate this story so much.

[673] I know.

[674] I know.

[675] Life was salacious in the 90s, you know?

[676] Well, and also it was the kind of thing where then it became this Howard Stern topic, and it was like every joke, and you couldn't get away from it.

[677] And it's really, if it were a man doing that to a woman and people were making jokes like that, I mean, people would go insane.

[678] So, like, just that whole idea that it's, but it's funny if it happens to a man is really good, I think.

[679] Right.

[680] And it's like, it came from a traumatic event, so how that's not humor.

[681] The whole thing is an issue.

[682] Totally.

[683] So after she did that, she flees the scene along with the severed penis and she later tosses it out the car window while driving along a highway in Virginia.

[684] She says she did it because her husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, emotionally, physically, and sexually abused her during their marriage and had even forced her to have an abortion.

[685] She also claims that her husband raped her on the night she cut off his penis.

[686] Her defense lawyer, Blaine D. Howard, states that after suffering years of John's abuse, she had just snapped, but using that word, due to the PTSD and clinical depression, the abuse had caused her, which caused her to have that irresistible impulse in the moment.

[687] She's acquitted in 1994 at her trial, and though she's ultimately committed to a mental hospital, five weeks later, the judge orders her to be released.

[688] through the years the insanity defense continues to evolve someone who has found guilty but mentally ill is still held criminally responsible but since they are mentally ill instead of going to prison right away they receive mental health treatment but once they're done with treatment they serve the remainder of their sentence in a regular prison this differs from the not guilty by reason of insanity acquittal verdict where the defendant receives treatment but is released if and when they finish treatment, which seems a little more level -headed to me, right?

[689] Depends.

[690] Yeah.

[691] You know what?

[692] All depends.

[693] Oh, it's contextual.

[694] All of it.

[695] It is.

[696] And today, each state has their own rules when it comes to the insanity defense.

[697] The federal government's laws on the insanity defense remain the same as they did in 1984.

[698] And that is the history of the insanity defense.

[699] I mean, I think it's interesting to look back on the conversation when as Dave Holmes talks about in his brilliant podcast waiting for impact the monoculture we were getting one story from basically one or two news sources about these things and told what to think about these topics so it was like the insanity defense is bullshit and whoever was saying that we're like yes it is because that's all we heard and there was very little nuance or expanded conversation around that so it was like oh these bad guys are using it to get out and that's that's all it is where obviously as we know and the longer we tell these stories to each other of these horrible things and the why behind it it's like there's a lot of different whys behind stories and mental illness is a big part of many of them well i think what's what's changing the conversation and culture is that mental illness is is you know always evolving but starting to be more understood as something that is rampant in our society because it was so shamed and hidden and like, you know, there's the crazy kid in your family, send them away.

[700] And now it's like this happens in everyone's family.

[701] There's someone in everyone's family or there's, you know, you with your own mental illnesses and your own issues.

[702] And we all have PTSD in some fucking way or some, you know, trauma.

[703] And it's, I think, hopefully being a little more, being a little more empathetic these days.

[704] But then also, once that's part of the conversation, too, then it's like, so then we can say, like, the thing that happens a lot where it's like, right, you know, this person went through trauma and that's the rationale behind these crimes, except all the other people who also went about trauma do not kill.

[705] Right.

[706] Therefore, we need to really process this in a different way.

[707] Like, I think that the fact that people are able to speak up and be like, I never did that, and I went through the exact same thing.

[708] So that can't be the excuse.

[709] And we can't pretend that these are these, you know, like this people going through family trauma is always this very specialized experience when, in fact, it's common and lots of people take responsibility and or get help.

[710] And also back then there used to be, there used to be state -run help.

[711] We need mental health services back.

[712] Oh, God.

[713] We need services.

[714] So bad.

[715] Thanks, Reagan.

[716] Fucking.

[717] Well, for our sixth anniversary, should we maybe each do one or two fucking hooray's?

[718] Let's do it.

[719] Okay.

[720] Great job, by the way.

[721] Oh, thank you.

[722] That's really interesting.

[723] I think it's like all those kinds of things.

[724] I always want to know more and more about them.

[725] Thank you.

[726] Okay, this one says, Hey, y 'all, are we still doing fucking hooray's?

[727] Well, if not, I'm still telling you this, because it's awesome and we all need some hope.

[728] Hell yeah.

[729] I work a side job where I'm a princess for parties and marketing events.

[730] Yes, write a memoir, please.

[731] And I got the opportunity to work with a local pediatric cancer organization recently.

[732] About a month ago, I visited a little girl sick with a rare brain cancer and they weren't really sure how much longer she'd be with us.

[733] Well, this last week, I was invited back to see this brave, strong, and, incredibly smart princess to help her celebrate her fifth birthday.

[734] Not only did she beat the odds and make it to five, but she started walking for the first time in a long, long time.

[735] A lot of things may suck, but she inspires me to keep going.

[736] Because if she can, I sure as hell can.

[737] Carolyn.

[738] Nice Carolyn.

[739] Princess Carolyn.

[740] Okay, this one, there's no name on this.

[741] It's from the Gmail.

[742] inbox.

[743] And it says my fucking hooray is that after being stuck in my hometown and my mental health suffering because of it, I finally found a job on the East Coast and moved.

[744] I left my very supportive family and my equally supportive job of seven years.

[745] Everyone I came across agreed that I needed to move so I can grow.

[746] Even though I'm not prepared to deal with what a real winter looks like, I'm excited to explore new places, meet new people, and most importantly, keep pushing myself to grow into the person that I want to be.

[747] Thank you ladies for being an inspiration to try a new kind of lifestyle.

[748] I have chills.

[749] Yeah.

[750] Oh, my God.

[751] It's so true.

[752] It's so true.

[753] They're doing it.

[754] You have to grow.

[755] It's great.

[756] Yeah.

[757] You got to do the scary stuff.

[758] What do they say that it hurt the thing where one day it hurt more to?

[759] Forget it.

[760] To stay small?

[761] Something like that?

[762] Yeah.

[763] You know, that old.

[764] oh you just sew that on a pillow and it just kind of fades off just the thread starts on unraveling as you get to the last word the w isn't on there all the way you're just like you know that thing um where they say martorino kelly swig who does all those cool like funny graphics for us that i put up on instagram she'll make a good little stitchy pillow she always does she's very funny uh guys six years thank you so much for being with us this whole time we could not we would not be here without you literally yeah thank you so much for your interest your support your feedback um you made us who we are yeah we we appreciate you and uh we'll keep doing it if you keep coming back it works if you work it yeah you got to show up and then and then we'll keep we'll keep doing these um thank you for everything stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[765] Goodbye.

[766] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[767] This has been an exactly right production.

[768] Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[769] Associate producer Alejandra Keck.

[770] Engineer and mixer.

[771] Steven.

[772] Ray Morris.

[773] Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

[774] Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[775] And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at my fave murder.

[776] And for more information about this podcast or live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to my favoritemerder .com.

[777] Rate review and subscribe.