Michael Tubbs

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[3] Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome.

[4] Welcome to Armchair Expert.

[5] This is a bonus episode in our continued effort to help with the many facets of Black Lives Matter.

[6] Today we have an astounding person by the name of Michael Tubbs.

[7] Now, if you want to learn a lot about Michael Tubbs, you should watch the HBO documentary, Stockton on my mind.

[8] This cat is incredible.

[9] He became the mayor of Stockton, California in 2017 when he was 26 years old.

[10] He's a wonder kid.

[11] He's a phenom.

[12] Michael became both Stockton's youngest mayor and the city's first African -American mayor.

[13] Michael Tubbs has secured over 20 million in philanthropic capital to launch the Stockton Scholars, a place -based scholarship that aims to triple the number of Stockton.

[14] students entering and graduating from college.

[15] He has so many creative ideas, so many wonderful relationships.

[16] And just to remind you, I'm Dan Shepard, and of course, my beautiful co -host, Monica, miniature padman.

[17] So please enjoy the astounding, incredible, charming, and fun Michael Tubbs.

[18] In our continued effort to promote black -owned businesses, I'd like to bring your attention to Briogio, B -R -I -O -G -E -O.

[19] Now, this is a very interesting story about Nancy Twine.

[20] Now, Nancy who owns Briogio.

[21] Three years into a stint on the commodities desk at Goldman Sachs, Tween's mother died in a car accident.

[22] The tragedy pushed her to reconsider her career path.

[23] Inspired by her mother, a chemist who had developed a natural face cream, and her grandmother who taught her how to make products with natural ingredients, she spent weekends and nights researching the beauty industry.

[24] In 2014, she launched natural hair care brand Briagio, that targets customers by hair texture, wavy, coily, dry, or thin.

[25] rather than ethnicity.

[26] It was profitable from the start and the revenues quickly grew.

[27] It launched internationally in 2018 and is now sold on Sephora shelves around the world as well as through online UK retailer, Colt Beauty.

[28] So if you are in the market for some face cream, I recommend you check out Briogio, B -R -I -O -G -E -O.

[29] Also, thank you, Forbes, for this great write -up.

[30] So the business I'm going to promote today is Marcus Books.

[31] M -A -R -C -U -S?

[32] That's right.

[33] Marcus Books.

[34] Okay.

[35] It is a black -owned bookstore, founded in the 60s by Dr. Ray and Julian Richardson.

[36] And it's one of the nations, maybe the nation's oldest black -owned bookstore.

[37] And I love reading.

[38] They've hosted readings by Tony Morrison, Maya Angelou.

[39] This is a fancy bookstore.

[40] Now, to purchase books for Marcus Books, you have to call a number.

[41] It's 510 -652 -2 -2344.

[42] 510 -652 -2 -3 -44.

[43] That's right.

[44] Or you could go in person to 3 ,900 Martin Luther King Jr. Way in Oakland, California.

[45] That's right.

[46] And they also have a Go -FundMe, which is aiming to raise $200 ,000 to help sustain the Oakland store and the communities it serves.

[47] So check out Marcus Books.

[48] He's an object to.

[49] He's an opportunity.

[50] Where are you at?

[51] You're in a bedroom, it seems?

[52] So we have a guest room.

[53] This is apparently called a daybed.

[54] Oh, sure.

[55] Yes.

[56] Yeah.

[57] See, I know what this was.

[58] That's fancy to me, too.

[59] So we have a day bed.

[60] And then I work from here as well.

[61] How have your duties changed during this pandemic?

[62] What's your routine like now?

[63] It's interesting.

[64] I have a nine -month -old, too.

[65] Oh, wow.

[66] But it's helpful because he gets to be up early.

[67] So I'm always on top of everything.

[68] 5 .5 .30.

[69] It's me and him.

[70] That's a positive spin.

[71] I'm having to be up early.

[72] Yeah.

[73] That's a real glass is half full kind of attitude.

[74] Biggest change, I think, has been toggling between doing work here and work at City Hall.

[75] And then also because we're going to have a nanny starting March 10th, which was like a week before we went shelter in place.

[76] So from March 10th to now me and my wife have been figuring out schedules.

[77] So I empathize with parents that can't own their schedule.

[78] like I can, like being home is on an option.

[79] Anyway, so that's been the biggest change is the remote work and then also having to be like a public health official.

[80] Yeah.

[81] Like learning about viruses and spread and contagions and surge like in the hospitals.

[82] It's all the stuff I just had no idea I would ever want to learn, much less have to learn.

[83] Yeah, we had Garcetti on and he pointed out something really brilliant, which is he said, you know, of any occupation in government, mayors have to be pragmatist.

[84] above all.

[85] Like, whatever their party allegiances or their idealistic things, like, they got to keep the city running, right?

[86] Do you find that to be true that it's like, it's just a real rubber meets the road job?

[87] A hundred percent.

[88] I'm the biggest pragmatist that's hard with strong values, but I'm always looking for how to be operationalized it, how do we get it done, particularly with the resources we have.

[89] And I think especially in Stockton, I mean, my city council is four Republicans and two Democrats.

[90] So everything we do has to be done and spoken about in ways are super pragmatic and don't really tip off an ideology when we're the other, for the most part.

[91] Yeah.

[92] And have you gotten like a Jedi about phrasing things in ways that you are conscious that won't trigger their identity?

[93] Don't you find that once people's identity is being called into question, like they'll die over identity?

[94] Yeah, identity and also people don't want to feel like, like something can be bad, but they don't feel like they're bad because of something that we're trying change is bad.

[95] So I don't do it well all the time.

[96] I think on the big issues when I have the time to think I try to message it in terms of like just values and just keep the conversation centered on that.

[97] Like we all believe that everyone should be treated equally.

[98] Right.

[99] See that in this instance, this particular group has been treated equally.

[100] What do you all propose we do?

[101] I propose we do see.

[102] And usually that gets at least the support of the other governing officials, although in the conversation to community, sometimes it's a little bit more difficult, but I found just like, as you said, that speaking in terms of values, and making it personal, not in terms of the harm, but in terms of the solution.

[103] Like, you can be part of the solution versus you did this.

[104] And do you find on a city level that there's no appetite for growth?

[105] People nowadays are like, if the pilot project isn't perfect, then we don't want to fuck with it.

[106] I realize that I'm built differently, because for me, it always starts with, well, the status quo is horrible.

[107] So if the status quo is horrible, even if the solution isn't perfect, it's better than the status quo, which is a step in the right direction.

[108] And that's kind of my entire governing frame.

[109] Like, when things are just terrible, we have to improve upon them, and it's not going to be perfect.

[110] And it might be a little bit scary.

[111] It might test us on our conventional wisdom.

[112] But I think part of the reason why we have the world we have now is that people are so afraid of trying for better that we are just.

[113] just stuck with it, just say failing status quo, which we know is a failure.

[114] We know it's broken, which we know if it perpetuates and keeps it going, that's more of a risk in trying to change it.

[115] Yeah, and it's very much that you're going to miss 100 % of the shots you don't take analogy.

[116] People have to have some appetite for like, yeah, we're going to try something.

[117] And actually, it might turn out worse for a minute.

[118] So, okay, and then we'll have to reassess and we'll have to continue to work on this.

[119] Health care to me seems to be the most obvious, where it's like, well, that thing didn't run perfect, the Affordable Care Act, if that didn't run perfect and all 300 million people weren't satisfied, then it was a failure.

[120] And that just seems crazy to me, that we can't go forward in any direction if our bar is perfection the first time out.

[121] Yeah, I tell my staff all the time that we have to be more vested in the problem being terrible than the solution being perfect and that we just have to realize like this is a horrible problem.

[122] And if we do anything even incrementally, one step.

[123] Better, that's a win because just from being married for the past couple of years, I've been shocked at how even the status quo, which everyone says they hate and everyone's upset about, change seems to be very scary and threatening and it causes all these weird feelings where folks will vote against their self -interest and vote against their own benefit because it's different than what they're used to, even though what they're used to is like killing them.

[124] Yeah.

[125] What are some of the bigger battles you've won in your three there.

[126] Oh, man. I'm going to ask you to brag, basically.

[127] No, no, I like a good fight.

[128] I think the first one is just around reducing gun violence and homicides.

[129] My cousin was murdered in Stockton, which is why I decided to come back and run for office.

[130] So I am like a pit bull when it comes to kind of gun violence reduction and homicides.

[131] And we had a program we have been running a ceasefire program, which is a evidence -based program that works, but we weren't seeing the results that we needed to see.

[132] And I waited two years on city council.

[133] And then my first year as mayor, we went from 49 to 54 homicides.

[134] And that was just unacceptable.

[135] So I remember calling the police chief on New Year's Eve and having an hour -long meeting with him and said, we're going to do things differently this year.

[136] We're added another program called Advanced Peace, which is based off Richmond.

[137] And it caused some friction because it was a program very similar to the program we had.

[138] So by bringing it in, it was an admission that what we're doing in and of itself isn't working.

[139] And I was surprised at how so many people were so adamantly against that because they thought I was saying they weren't doing their job or they weren't they weren't sufficient and as got tire said we're going to do it so the program's very similar the only addition is that it obviously pays the men that we identify as fellows who are most likely to be victims or perpetrators of violent crime it pays them a stipend as a job to kind of help keep the peace but we've seen that 40 % reduction each of the last three years because of both those programs working in tandem so I'm very very very proud of that because I was a real fight to change kind of conceptions around sort of who's deserving.

[140] Do people deserve a second chance?

[141] Do we really want to spend time helping folks who we know are actively carrying weapons?

[142] Who we know how may have shot somebody?

[143] Do we really want to give them a second chance?

[144] If that is what it's required to make us safe or do we want to keep complaining about homicides, keep complaining about gun violence, but not do anything to change it?

[145] And then also just the boring, administrative, like, ego stuff in terms of, oh, you're on my turf or you're saying I'm not doing my job or because you can always find a reason for why something's broken there's always like justified like you don't have this we don't have that we don't have this like that there's always a reason there's some sometimes are very compelling but at the end of the day we had to make a move so that's the first thing the second battle i'm really proud of and my staff's going to hate me for saying this but i am is that as a city people know we declare bankruptcy and i was looking at the budget and i realized we spent a lot of money subsidizing courses.

[146] And when we cut everything else, the golf subsidy kept going up.

[147] So when I cut firefighters and cut police officers and closed libraries, golf subsidy kept going up.

[148] I noticed that as a city council member.

[149] I would always say during budget session, what's the plan to deal with the golf subsidy?

[150] I realize golf was like the thing.

[151] So I was like, what's the backbone of all good economies?

[152] What are you talking about, Todd?

[153] But look, this is the crazy part.

[154] So then I become mayor.

[155] I'm like, okay, because some of things, you know, a very ideologically diverse place.

[156] I said, let me appeal to my fiscal conservatives.

[157] So I said, well, hey, this golf subsidy is unsustainable.

[158] What's the plan?

[159] And there was no plan.

[160] It's just going to literally keep going up every year because there was deferred maintenance.

[161] There were more even cart paths.

[162] It was just Oh, my God.

[163] This is a really funny one.

[164] I got to say.

[165] Yeah.

[166] So then I just said, let's have a conversation about ending the golf subsidies in the city.

[167] And what's interesting, there's two golf courses in the city that the city runs.

[168] And there's like eight in that 10 -mile radius, private courses, which were better.

[169] But two that the city ran.

[170] One was in a poor neighborhood, and it was given to the city as a land trust.

[171] So we could only use it for recreation.

[172] But recreation doesn't mean golf.

[173] It means recreation.

[174] And then the second was one in a more affluent area, which was surrounded actually by homes, nice homes, but they're all in the county.

[175] meaning they don't pay all the city taxes that go to subsides in the golf course that boost their property values up.

[176] And then a lot of the streets are named up to Confederate generals on that.

[177] It was very interesting.

[178] Oh, boy.

[179] Okay.

[180] So there's a lot happening.

[181] There's a lot of it.

[182] So then unbeknownst to me, not understanding the politics, I said, well, we just went through bankruptcy.

[183] Let's continue these good habits.

[184] We have to end the golf subsidy.

[185] It turned into like World War III.

[186] There were signs around the golf course saying stop merit hubs and big black letters.

[187] There was all these kinds of things.

[188] conspiracies that Mayor Tubbs was trying to take over the golf course and sell it to put low -income housing there, that Mayor Tubbs had a sweetheart deal with Oprah.

[189] It was just like all these crazy.

[190] It sounds crazy, but a lot of people believed it.

[191] So I spent all of 2018 in meetings, learned a lot about golf, which I'm thankful for and how to operate a golf course.

[192] But in meetings for people, and I realized to the point earlier, for a lot of people, they felt that their identity was being turned.

[193] particularly as a young black mayor coming in and saying we can't afford golf.

[194] I think for some people they thought it was like, oh, we're not important anymore.

[195] He doesn't value what we care about.

[196] When literally for me, it wasn't even a cultural argument.

[197] It was literally that if we could close libraries, we should be able to close down golf court.

[198] Like only 3 ,000 people in the whole city used the golf course of the course a year.

[199] Long story short, we got to a solution.

[200] And now the city doesn't subsidize the golf course, but to the community's credit and listening to them, we found an operator privately who will run the golf course as a golf course.

[201] So the city won't sell it.

[202] The city won't do anything with it.

[203] It's going to be a green space and it's going to be a golf course.

[204] And then in five years, if the private operator breaks more than even, the city gets 10 % of revenue, meaning what was a losing asset is now a money -making line.

[205] And I'm super proud of that because I started.

[206] Everyone thought it was going to be recalled.

[207] Everyone thought it was going to be a big egg on my face.

[208] You can't take on golf courses.

[209] Which is crazy to me still because I'm like we took on firefires.

[210] I know.

[211] Heroes.

[212] But people are still upset about that, but I'm very proud that we have a solution.

[213] So those two things are some of the proudest achievements, I would say, as Mary.

[214] What's it like, we haven't gotten into it because I know it's triggering for you, as it would have been for me, but you're young as fuck.

[215] Like I held off as long as I could.

[216] I think you took.

[217] But that's great.

[218] That's something to be proud of.

[219] Oh, big time.

[220] But I know from his movie that like it's the first topic.

[221] every time.

[222] It's kind of like when I sit down, someone's like, oh, you're married to Kristen Bell.

[223] I'm like, yes, I know.

[224] Everyone knows.

[225] Yes, I am.

[226] So, anyways, you're young as hell.

[227] I think you were, what, were you 26 or seven when you took office as the mayor?

[228] 26.

[229] 26.

[230] And then prior to that, you were 23, I guess, when you became a councilman.

[231] 22?

[232] 22.

[233] Look at this.

[234] I'm trying to pad.

[235] So, 22 and 26.

[236] So as I think of all these gifts that are intrinsic.

[237] related to your age.

[238] I've grown less and less idealistic my whole life.

[239] I think that's a pretty natural progression, more adverse to change than I was when I was young, all these different things.

[240] But also, to see signs with your name on it planted in the ground at 26, I just feel like at 45 I might be able to handle that, but just now.

[241] So what is that like for you?

[242] I mean, you can tell yourself like, oh, I'm in politics.

[243] I know what to expect, blah, blah, blah.

[244] But when you Oh, someone took time to hammer a sign that basically says, I hate this person.

[245] What's that like?

[246] Well, a lot of the start when I was on city council.

[247] So I've had a lot of time because Stoughton's a great city in that diverse city.

[248] But, I mean, anytime there's a first anything in 2020, that suggests that there's been some problems with bias at some point in the history.

[249] So even on city council, I would have, as a youngest person on council, during council comments, it would be 50 comments just saying how terrible I am.

[250] or or oh boy oh boy my first meeting as a council member was with a group of folks from a part by council district who told me they were going to succeed from the city and they had a whole plan for success the word succession yeah yeah my first meeting as elected officials so I think I received a lot of practice in terms of dealing with things like that and also understanding that politics is just such a weird thing in this country that a lot of the attacks feel personal but they're not personal.

[251] I represent something to folks.

[252] So whether it's something people are excited and inspired by or something that may be scary, like it's not me. It's whatever this young black mayor and when he stands to represent for people, cause some sort of reaction.

[253] I was fine with it, but a lot of my people around me, my staff, my friends, family, other people were, they were like, oh my gosh, are you okay?

[254] And I keep telling people, this is the only profession where an F is a, passing grade.

[255] You need 50 .1%, which means 49 .9 % of people could hate your guts, can have signs that say stop, recall, but you need 50 .1, which sucks, because I try to work for 100 % always.

[256] Well, he got 70.

[257] Can I tell you that?

[258] He won the mayoral campaign with 70 % of the vote.

[259] Is that like a record?

[260] That's high, right?

[261] Yeah.

[262] Bragg some more.

[263] Come on, brag, brag, brag, brag.

[264] That was pretty high, but then, I mean, but that's how fickle.

[265] politics is because a year and a half later, same bear, same person, kind of all these recall campaign and stop there in terms.

[266] So yeah, to answer your question, I think in a lot of the country my upbringing is just realizing that's not always about you, good or bad.

[267] Well, when people assassinate your character, it's really hard not to defend yourself.

[268] Like people go like, oh, if you didn't do it, why are you so hung up on it?

[269] It's like, well, I've been accused of some things publicly.

[270] It drives me bonkers.

[271] And then people believe it.

[272] And that's the thing.

[273] And since we're a catch between two, because it's like, okay, like Michelle said, when they go low, you go high.

[274] But while you're going high, there's still a rope that can pull you, even if you don't say anything because of the people I'm responded to.

[275] And that's how rumors and stuff grow, particularly in the age of misinformation.

[276] So that's one of the things I'm trying to improve.

[277] It's like how to we communicate the truth to people in a way that's not responsive to craziness, but gives people facts or some response.

[278] The one that was, to me, the most insane, where I was like, what is this guy going to be?

[279] do was the birther movement, right?

[280] So you've got Obama.

[281] Imagine just anyone who's listening, someone out of nowhere starts saying you weren't born in the USA.

[282] It's like, it's so stupid and you so clearly know you were that it doesn't feel like it deserves a comment, but then you just see this thing gaining momentum and momentum.

[283] And finally you're like, oh, well, I'm actually going to have to do this.

[284] I'm actually going to have to prove I was fucking born here.

[285] And just wrestling with like, yes, you don't want to give those idiots what they're what they want, which is engagement.

[286] But at the same time, wow, if 30 % of the country's believe in this, I guess now it is on my plate.

[287] I got to dispel this.

[288] Even locally, there's like mayor Tubbs doesn't live in Stockton.

[289] But how can you be the mayor and I live in, no, seriously.

[290] I'm like, how can you be the mayor?

[291] And you're like, you have to legal.

[292] Where do you live in Bay Area somewhere?

[293] I live in New York.

[294] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[295] I heard I lived in a grove yesterday.

[296] Oh, my God.

[297] Okay, let me ask you, I would imagine when people hear about any town in California or any city, if you're in the rest of the country, assume you're picturing L .A. or San Francisco, or you believe the whole kind of state is like the coast is.

[298] And I think it's really misleading for folks who've not driven around central California.

[299] And I was just in your neighborhood for the last seven days.

[300] I was in Sacramento, and then I was in Stockton, then I was at a racetrack filming.

[301] man, I'm walking around Sacramento and I'm like, this reminds me of a down south town.

[302] You know, it's very - Sacramento.

[303] Yes, and that's even like more cosmopolitan than Stockton, right?

[304] I mean, the downtown's like cowboy themed, right?

[305] Oh, Sacramento, yeah.

[306] Yeah, yeah.

[307] And then you look at the demographic and it very much reminds me of like Gary, Indiana or some of the suburbs of Detroit where it's like pretty high, disproportionately high, or at least anecdotally, it seems high.

[308] black population and then kind of rural country boys.

[309] It's a weird mix.

[310] It's not L .A. Can you speak to the demographic of Stockton?

[311] Stockton's the most diversity in the country.

[312] So we have about 40 % 9x folk.

[313] We have about 30 % white people, 20 % Asian people and 10 % African American.

[314] Oh, so it's not, that's not disproportionately high.

[315] My anecdote was wrong.

[316] But it's a weird sort of kind of melting pot of culture.

[317] in the most beautiful way.

[318] Like the oldest Sikh temple in this continent is in South Stockton.

[319] Oh, wow.

[320] I love that fact.

[321] Stockton is 10 % black, but it's also 10 % Filipino.

[322] And at one point, we had the largest Filipino population in the world outside of the Philippines in Stockton.

[323] Did they bring ghosts with them?

[324] Not ghosts.

[325] I'm sorry.

[326] I'm trying to inciner you.

[327] I worked with a lot of Filipinos, and they all believed in ghosts, and I loved it.

[328] And they all have great ghost stories.

[329] And they had like a thriving part of our downtown called Little Manila, which was like the thriving place of commerce for everyone ran by the Filipino community.

[330] So super diverse, but to your point, I was describing to someone yesterday and saying it's a mix of urban in -rule.

[331] Yeah.

[332] My family came from Texarkering, Arkansas, and Arkansas and Mississippi, and they migrated to South in California.

[333] My grandmother is from Bakersfield.

[334] I think a lot of the African -American families in Stockton come from the South, and a lot of the white folks in South and come from the Dust Bowl and from Oklahoma.

[335] And they're also refugees from Greece and other places.

[336] So you have this weird mix of like old town feel in this like very urban city, though.

[337] It's 315 ,000 people.

[338] It has real big city issues.

[339] It's just a fascinating place to be.

[340] Did it originate being a like gold mining support town?

[341] Is that what it's from?

[342] Yeah, gold rush town because we're on the waterway.

[343] So fun fact, we're in the finalist for the capital is between us, Sacramento, Francisco.

[344] Oh, no kidding.

[345] The oldest college west of the Mississippi is in Stockton.

[346] It's the University of the Pacific.

[347] Even today, like transportation of goods and services, the wireways are our main economic drivers, but that stems from sort of the gold rush.

[348] And that's also why it's so diverse because so many people came or were forced to come to help work on the gold rush stuff.

[349] Wow.

[350] So you growing up, mom was very young when she had you, right?

[351] She was 16 or something.

[352] She was 16 when she was pregnant, yep.

[353] And then dad, went to prison is currently still in prison.

[354] Yeah.

[355] I don't know anything about the crime he committed, but when I just read that it was kidnapping, drug possession, and robbery, all bad stuff.

[356] But I also was like, really life sentence?

[357] I don't feel like a white guy gets a life sentence for that.

[358] Growing up, you find out your dad's in prison between five to life, you automatically think, oh, they murdered somebody.

[359] That's what I thought.

[360] I thought, oh, he either had five kilos or he murdered somebody.

[361] So I was always petrified and terrified of actually asking what he did.

[362] So I didn't find out actually what happened until this documentary, to be honest.

[363] Wow.

[364] No shit.

[365] Yeah, yeah, because growing up, I just didn't want to know because what would I say about me?

[366] Uh -huh.

[367] What people judged me. So I would actually lie.

[368] People asked me where my dad was.

[369] I was saying, I don't know.

[370] Or he's not around or he lives in a different city and stuff like.

[371] I would never tell him when he was in prison.

[372] But I think to your point.

[373] He plays for Green Bay.

[374] He's always in Wisconsin.

[375] But I think to your point, what's been interesting now as a policymaker is realizing that all that internalized, I don't want to be a bad person, I'm going to be super good.

[376] I was happy as I'm mature that I realize that there's also policy.

[377] So he's in jail for 25 to life because of the terrible three strikes law.

[378] Oh.

[379] Whatever their third strike is, we throw 25 to life.

[380] There's circumstances, at least he claims for his arrest, which I found out in watching the documentary, was that I had a half sister.

[381] who was born with some birth defects and died young and he had just been released but he was responsible for burying her.

[382] He was just released and had money so he had $3 ,000.

[383] So he didn't rob some like grandmother or he didn't go break in someone's house.

[384] He robbed a drug dealer he knew from being in the streets who he knew he would have money thinking that person wouldn't tell because it was kind of street called street rules and ended up didn't realize that taking him to the bank was kidnapping.

[385] He was like, I let him go.

[386] But he took him to the bank, kid that took the money.

[387] The guy ended up getting busted for something else as part of his plea deal, went ahead and shared some other folks, you know, who were involved.

[388] And that's sort of from his rendition, but also just from some other folks is what happened for literally $3 ,000 to bury his daughter.

[389] So I think from him, it's the stuff around basic income, stuff around criminal justice, now it just makes even more sense because I'm thinking, like, wow, 30 years ago, things may have been different if some of these things have been in place.

[390] There's no guarantees, but at least for me, it's an interesting kind of thought game to play.

[391] Well, what I imagine for you, and again, now I'm projecting, because I had issues with my dad.

[392] He didn't end up in prison, but, you know, four DUIs, he split, he didn't pay child support.

[393] I had a lot of issues with him.

[394] And then I've found compassion over the years and realized, oh, he was so much a victim of his circumstance.

[395] And now I've had kids in my own.

[396] I recognize the struggles.

[397] I've married as he was, and I'm recognizing, you know.

[398] And I guess as the older I get, I just grow more and more compassionate for his story.

[399] and step out of my own egotistical evaluation of him.

[400] And I would just wonder if you've been on a journey similar to that.

[401] 100%.

[402] I think as a child, most child, you're very self -centered, right?

[403] Yeah.

[404] I never even considered how he felt being locked up.

[405] I never thought about this.

[406] He missed me. It's just hard for him, too.

[407] Like, in my mind, it was like he's having some vacation in prison away from his son, and he's enjoying it.

[408] And he chose that over you.

[409] Like, there was a clear decision at one point that said, you want to see Michael or you want to go hang in jail?

[410] And he said, let's go to jail.

[411] Yeah.

[412] And then I thought about, well, all these people are going to judge me because of him.

[413] I had nothing to do with him.

[414] And then watching my mom struggle and say, even if they weren't together, she had some help, maybe she'd be less stressed, less anxious, it seems to be different or like little things like on Father's Day.

[415] Like, man, I wish I could make a Father's Day card for a father and I'll just make it to my mother.

[416] Right?

[417] Yeah, yeah.

[418] And I think a lot of that just fueled me probably.

[419] pretty unhealthily actually as a child, to just be a super overachiever.

[420] I used to cry when I miss one word on spelling tests.

[421] A lot of pressure.

[422] I was like an eight, nine year old to not be a stereotype to be perfect.

[423] I'm not going to be like that, right?

[424] And as I got older, I realized not really until I went to college and started reading about kind of policies and started reading about kind of structures and started realizing that individual choices matter, but they happen in the context of an environment that people don't choose.

[425] And it happens in a context of a country where a decision that someone makes versus someone else where radically different consequences based off their race, based off where they live.

[426] So that caused me to really think and wonder.

[427] And as I've gotten older, I just realized that, oh, no, like, he actually may not be this horrible person.

[428] He actually may have made some terrible decisions, but let's look at the totality.

[429] And then I think having a son has been the kicker.

[430] If I'm gone for three days for a business trip when we could travel, I think.

[431] I'm like, I miss him.

[432] What am I missing?

[433] Is he okay?

[434] What's going?

[435] I'm like, sad.

[436] And then I'm like, well, imagine doing that for 25 years.

[437] I had that exact same thing where I had this baby and all of a sudden, the whole paradigm flip where I was like, oh, I always thought I was the victim.

[438] But now when I see how much I miss this child, I know I miss this child more than I ever missed my parent, I finally was like, oh, he was the victim.

[439] I wasn't the victim.

[440] He missed something.

[441] You can't.

[442] You can't get back.

[443] And I feel terrible because I could have, but it's not like he went away and I'm never going to talk to you again.

[444] He would write and I would write back and he always wanted me to visit.

[445] I just did not enjoy the process of visit.

[446] I go to prisons all the time, but visiting a loved one in prison, it just felt very traumatic.

[447] So I've only done it two times.

[448] And I feel terrible about that.

[449] And then on this documentary, I was, I didn't know he was going to be in it.

[450] So I saw the first draft and he was in it.

[451] My first instinct was to re -vote back to, 15 year old Michael and say no why is he in this take this out no and then I realized to your point I would hate for my son for the only representation of me to be just what my son thinks particularly if we didn't have a good relationship or he didn't know me so it was all based off what he thought and what he felt inserted on him and I said he deserves the chance to be a full person to be a full human and to tell his story because everyone's going to hear what I think so I'm the mayor I have the platform for him.

[452] I am free.

[453] I get to speak.

[454] Yeah.

[455] So, and then watching it and seeing people's reactions.

[456] I'm like, that was the right choice.

[457] And I'm happy at this point.

[458] I'm forgiven.

[459] I'm excited.

[460] I can't wait for him and my son to have a different relationship.

[461] But I just feel bad for all I may have lost from just being afraid to figure out what happened.

[462] And I'm just being very angry as a kid.

[463] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

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[508] So in hating my father and making him this archetype, I then made my mother a different archetype, just a saint, the perfect human being who I'd lay down in front of railroad tracks any day of the week for.

[509] I think I was trying to be the husband she deserved.

[510] I was like, that dad, he shit the bet on this, but I'm going to be the guy that she deserved.

[511] And I just wonder how much of yours was motivated out of like, giving mom something that you think she deserved from the get?

[512] Yeah, I realize.

[513] I think those kids are smart.

[514] So growing up, living in a certain neighborhood, seeing how teachers look at you or talk to you or talk to your peers, you realize that there are certain judgments or perceptions and also seeing just a hard my mom, but also my aunt and grandmother word.

[515] I think I also had a very strong drive to make them proud, to make them right, to make their sacrifice is worth it.

[516] I always want to feel like, no, all the stuff you're doing, it's going to pay off.

[517] And I always just went to, like, make sure they were providing for her.

[518] You have everything.

[519] So it's pretty because my mom was so young.

[520] Yeah.

[521] I love my mom, but do anything for her.

[522] But I really should have had some Evan flows.

[523] I'm for sure because she was growing up as an adult.

[524] The same time I'm like 13, 14 years old with a moody teenager, trying to figure out who I am as well.

[525] Yeah, you're doing this at 29 and it's hard, right?

[526] You're doing it with 29 with a spouse and you're going to have help, and it's fucking hard.

[527] Oh, and that's the other, I think to answer this question in the last one, part of the process is also getting older.

[528] So I remember my 23rd birthday, when my now -wife and then girlfriend took me to like this nice dinner and we're eating.

[529] And I just got really emotional.

[530] She thought, what's wrong?

[531] I was like, at 23, my mom had a 7 -year -old and my dad was like in jail.

[532] And I'm like on this boat eating this amazing meal with this beautiful person.

[533] Like, wow, how much of their life did they not have?

[534] And that was also a big wake -up call for me, too.

[535] Like, no, they were raw.

[536] He's been in jail since he was 17.

[537] Like, the last 13 years since 17, I've been amazing.

[538] I've really enjoyed them.

[539] I can't imagine, like, high school being the peak.

[540] Right.

[541] But that's the question about my mom.

[542] I think absolutely definitely a strong desire to prove her right, a strong desire to make her look good.

[543] But what's funny is that she's most proud of my son.

[544] Like, that's like, he hadn't done shit either.

[545] My birthday is Sunday.

[546] She was like, oh, on Sunday I went to see my grandson.

[547] I'm like, did you forget it's my birthday?

[548] Like, you did this?

[549] Just going back to your dad, I just want to place some emphasis on the point that I think we all want so badly to make people in prison and criminals inhumane.

[550] We want to categorize them as not real people so that it's easy for us to live with the fact that we know that there are a bunch of people in a building.

[551] A box.

[552] Cages.

[553] Yes.

[554] And so I think our brains try to justify it by saying like, well, they deserve it and they're not real.

[555] They don't have empathy.

[556] And so it's really good to hear an account of someone who's there.

[557] It was like, no, I'm a person.

[558] They didn't stop being human.

[559] Yeah.

[560] Yeah.

[561] It's hard.

[562] It's hard to reconcile that that's our best option in 2020 is like literally throw people in a trash can and then let them out 20 years later.

[563] Be like, good luck.

[564] And particularly now when the big, I just tweeted something earlier, the biggest super spreading places of COVID -19 are prisons.

[565] Like I was talking to my wife a couple months ago.

[566] Like I would hate at a point now where I'm mature, I'm ready to have a real relationship.

[567] I want my son having that shit with his grandfather for my father to get COVID -19.

[568] Yeah.

[569] Yeah, the last laugh of the system.

[570] It's like that.

[571] And it's just terrible.

[572] It's how many folks in prison have COVID -19 and how no one seems to care.

[573] Because I'm sure they don't have a bunch of ventilators in prisons.

[574] I'm sure they don't have enough ICU beds in prison hospitals.

[575] Oh, you've seen the video.

[576] There's like a guy, his cellmate is like dying in front of him.

[577] And he's videoing it.

[578] Like, get me out.

[579] of this room.

[580] Can you imagine being stuck in a six -foot box with someone dying of COVID?

[581] Yeah.

[582] Okay, let's argue about some stuff.

[583] You are a proponent of universal basic income.

[584] I'm on the fence about it.

[585] I have some reservation.

[586] And I think it might be the premise that I'm bumping against and maybe not the actual policy.

[587] But I'd love for you to tell me why you believe in that and what do you think it can do.

[588] Yeah, well, I came in as a skeptic, honestly.

[589] I came in thinking, What sucks is poverty and economic insecurity, so that's terrible.

[590] So let's figure out what options do we have to address it.

[591] And my staff came up with basic income, met the economic security project, told them we were working on that, we decided to partner and do a pilot.

[592] And what we found is that particularly something that small is $500 a month, it's not enough to replace work, but it's enough to allow work to go further.

[593] Gene Sperling has an amazing book about economic dignity.

[594] It's enough to ensure that everyone has the dignity to be able to bury their daughter, like my father was able to, to be able to take time off work if they're sick, particularly because if you look at the jobs in our country, so many people work in jobs without union protections, without paid time off, without paid sick leave.

[595] And there's a conversation to be had about doing those things as well.

[596] But we know that we don't have them.

[597] So I think a guarantee they can make a lot of sense.

[598] And so that was the first thing.

[599] The second thing was realizing that there's so much work that's being done, particularly by women that's not compensated as work, like folks who stay at home and do domestic work or caregiving, if they did it next door, they would get paid.

[600] But because they're doing at home, they don't.

[601] And for so many women, staying home is a smart economic choice because retail jobs, minimum wage jobs, don't pay enough for child care.

[602] So that's been eye -opening.

[603] And then number three, the issue is that, and I thought going in that if people worked, they should be fine.

[604] Like, people shouldn't work.

[605] I want people my city to work.

[606] But then I realized that the vast majority of people in our country who can work actually do work.

[607] Those who don't work are children, the highest group of people in poverty not working in our children who have child poverty laws, but also may have a disability or also are formerly incarcerated folks who can't find work, and that all the jobs available actually are good jobs.

[608] And we see that so clearly now when folks are literally going to work, contracting COVID, getting their whole family sick, and still can't pay for rent, and still can't pay for the utilities.

[609] I think of, I know you mentioned your mom and her work at night as a January, and I think of my mom and how hard she worked, worked herself to debt.

[610] And by the way, we just got lucky.

[611] Like at any point, had there been a medical thing, had there been, my mom got sick and couldn't work, at any point, like, there was never 40 cents more in the monthly budget than what was being spent.

[612] So we just got lucky for, you know, 18 years.

[613] And that's what's crazy to me. People are literally living life as a game of Russian roulette.

[614] chance, like one and two people can afford one to $500 emergency.

[615] And then I really became a believer just looking at what happened over the past 18 months and stopped.

[616] And all the, the day that says people spend money, how we spend money, and that's pretty intuitive.

[617] But the stories, there's one man, Tomas, who told me that the $500 a month, I said, what did you do with it?

[618] He said, oh, I interviewed.

[619] And I got a job.

[620] I said, why don't you pay $500 to get an interview?

[621] People said, we went on how to use the money.

[622] This is, oh, my gosh.

[623] And he's laughed at me. And he said, no, man. I worked retail, so I didn't have pay time off.

[624] So for me to interview for a job I may be qualified for wouldn't mean I have to take time off work.

[625] That's not paid, which means $200, $300 on my paycheck with no guarantee that I'll get the new job.

[626] But I can't do that because I have two kids.

[627] He said, but the $500 was enough for a cushion for me to take a bet on myself.

[628] Luckily for him, he got the job.

[629] But I didn't realize, like, wow, an income floor something, it's enough for people to take a risk to do the things necessary to ban themselves.

[630] That you can actually get trapped.

[631] You can get trapped in the situation.

[632] Yeah.

[633] Where when I, my mom used to go to the check -cashing place because she always had enough money at the end of the month, but bills are due at different times.

[634] So in her paycheck and the bills weren't always aligned, so she would need to pay this bill on the first.

[635] She gets paid the eighth, but she's $3 short on the first, so she'd have to go borrow money, against her check on the eighth to pay the first.

[636] You'd lose 20 % of it.

[637] So I remember how happy she was.

[638] I'll never forget as a 12 year old when she paid her last thing at the check -cashing place and said, well, I've never coming back to this place again.

[639] You must never go.

[640] Like she made upside the most evil, wicked thing.

[641] She said, this place right here, never go to.

[642] And so that's why I'm so passionate.

[643] Let me tell you one more story, actually.

[644] So another non -economic story, this one lady said that the $500 a month was enough for her to smile.

[645] Yeah, everyone likes money.

[646] You get me $500.

[647] I'll smile.

[648] Well, for a minute or two, you, I'll.

[649] But she said, no, mayor.

[650] What she was saying is that she was told she needed dentures two years ago.

[651] But she could never afford the ditch.

[652] She could never get the money to get the dentures.

[653] So she just wouldn't smile for two years.

[654] But with the basic income.

[655] So I think it's just stuff like that that shows like, wow, we live in a society with so much.

[656] And we're not saying give people everything.

[657] We're just saying we can afford.

[658] to get people a floor.

[659] And what people do with that floor is up to them, but to have people stress, anxious, unemployed, people are evicted.

[660] In terms of evictions, I thought people were evicted because they paid no rent.

[661] Yeah.

[662] But no, people are evicted because they're $200, $300, $400, $400 short of rent.

[663] It's like they're not paying, like, and I think this trope I had that the folks who are struggling are people who are just freeloading or who are working hard or who have no motivation.

[664] It's actually, the exact opposite.

[665] Like, folks are working incredibly hard, but the economy isn't working for them.

[666] There's not enough.

[667] They don't have enough for basic necessities, not having luxuries, like rent, food.

[668] That clearly is awesome.

[669] My two fears are, I believe strongly in incentives, right?

[670] I believe that humans do what they're incentivized to do.

[671] I don't think you can get around that.

[672] So I worry that when we on the left create these policies that are always well -intentioned, sometimes they end up incentivizing things that were unforeseen.

[673] The classic example of right is our welfare policy in the 80s and that we ended up incentivizing not getting married, which was, you know, regrettable.

[674] That was an oversight on the left.

[675] And so we're capable of those oversights, that's for sure.

[676] So I have that little bit of fear.

[677] Then my second thing is the premises I've been told is, and this is probably mostly coming from Andrew Yang, is that our future is automation.

[678] We are in this collision course with nobody working and that we're going to have to figure out how to support those people.

[679] And I kind of bought into that for a while.

[680] But then you look historically, and this prediction's been made 10 times.

[681] When we leave from the horse to steam power, we think 80 % of the world is going to be unemployed.

[682] And then we go from steam power to the assembly line, and that's going to cause this thing.

[683] And then the computer revolution, all this.

[684] And by the way, we always figure out how to work, work.

[685] So part of me feels like it's a little bit defeatist to say, we're not going to figure out how to work.

[686] So we've got to figure out how to pay people to survive.

[687] I appreciate folks who have the automation frame in terms of there's this technological disruption that happened that may displace.

[688] People may not like every other technological displacement that's happened in the history of mankind.

[689] But I think for me, I come from basic income differently because I learned it studying Dr. King.

[690] And Dr. King was talking about this.

[691] 1967 at a time when the country was literally on fire again because of civil unrest.

[692] And he talked about how as a moral argument and as an argument in terms of what public good is, is that it doesn't make sense for us to allow poverty when we have the means to abolish it, particularly at a time when Jeff Bezos just made $13 billion in one day, right?

[693] And no, no, not hanging on Jeff Bezos, good for you.

[694] I would love to make $13 billion in one day, not sure what I can do to do that.

[695] But if we can do that, there's a way to have a social contract that this allows for no bottom.

[696] And I hear you on the incentives point as well, but it's often a $500 a month.

[697] And we found that that has not been enough to, hell, that's probably not even enough.

[698] It's a little supplement.

[699] And I think that's part of the trick, right?

[700] It's like you almost got to find the exact dollar amount before which people go, well, fuck it.

[701] I'm not going to go to work.

[702] And I agree.

[703] I don't think anybody gets a check for $500 for $500.

[704] for the entire month, like, I'm good.

[705] You know, so that seems like a great number.

[706] I just wonder, it must be variable per city, obviously, to live certain places, requires a certain amount of floor.

[707] Now, how did you fund it?

[708] I feel like I interpreted that maybe you just went out and raised the money for this fund.

[709] Yeah, I was able to work with the economic security project, partnering with them and said, hey, let's test this idea in Stockton.

[710] And I'm happy to take the heat.

[711] I'm happy to use the data.

[712] I mean, if it works, I'm happy to speak about it, but speak about it in a way that elevates human dignity, and it's about agency.

[713] So I think the automation just robs us of agency of the, like, the future is going to happen to us and we're hopeless to shape it.

[714] And I'm like, no, a basic income gives folks the agency to make choices as to how to spend money, but also to prepare themselves for if something happens that they have a raft or a way to persist through those times.

[715] Because I, too, I hate defeatism.

[716] I wouldn't be mayor if I ascribed to that fee.

[717] And then the last thing I would say on incentives is that I think the incentive structure is wrong.

[718] We have people working, again, long hours and still can't pay for necessities.

[719] I think that actually, if that was me, I don't see why I would want to work.

[720] Like, why is it matter if I work?

[721] Yeah, it's not worth it.

[722] You're totally right.

[723] I agree with that.

[724] Well, we even found ourselves growing up in that weird middle ground where my mom made enough that we didn't qualify for free insurance.

[725] And yet we didn't have insurance, you know, like.

[726] So there's a lot of rungs where you can kind of get fucked.

[727] It's not just when you're poor.

[728] It's not just when you're this or that.

[729] And I think that's what the guaranteed income is so important.

[730] And I realize this in talking to folks in Stockton is that there's a lot of people who think they're middle class who actually aren't.

[731] They're actually like lower middle class are working poor.

[732] But even still, they don't qualify.

[733] They make just above what's necessary for all the programs we have.

[734] But they don't have a lot of assets.

[735] They make $100, $200, $200, $200.

[736] a thousand dollars more and are still struggling and then have a lot of resentment towards people who actually qualify for an existing program so that's why i'm also a big proponent because i found in stocking we have people making 50 60 70k who are saying no this 500 dollars is helpful for saving for kids college or paying off debt or paying off these stupid credit card like it's it's just that so many people in our society struggle economically and could use just a little bit of help last thing I'll say I realize that money is a function of time and the more money you have the more you own your time and I think as a parent I realize that the function of government should be to allow parents no matter who they are how times are configured to parent to have time with your child and the way to do that is to give people the ability to own their time and something like the income floor makes it so I don't have to work two jobs or I have to work this terrible job We've all been there.

[737] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[738] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[739] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[740] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[741] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[742] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[743] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[744] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music.

[745] What's up guys?

[746] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you it's too good.

[747] into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest.

[748] Okay, every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[749] And I don't mean just friends.

[750] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

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[752] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[753] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[754] Okay, now I want to get into an area that I won't probably not lay out in the best way.

[755] I don't really know the perfect way to state it.

[756] But I want to get into this topic of you.

[757] going to Stanford.

[758] That must have been some cultural shock or I guess what I'm trying to broach is, is there a route by which a young black man can do what you did without going and getting the upper class white toolkit?

[759] No, that makes a lot of sense.

[760] I think what I'm hearing is that like, well, okay, does it require you to hit the lottery and goes to Scott.

[761] Yes, yes, that's what I'm getting at.

[762] Like, yes.

[763] Because you're clearly bright as fuck and certainly Stanford played a role in that, but also you were bright as fuck before you went to Stanford.

[764] And it's just interesting that like when we evaluate these systems, the systemic issues that we're trying to dismantle or course correct on, you know, how much of it are we still embroiled in in that aspect of it?

[765] So the first thing I remember at Stanford and being in class, I went back to my dorm and texting my friends and saying, look, these people here are smart, but no one here is smarter than me or you.

[766] Like, because I literally thought going to Stanford, like, all these people had a monopoly on intelligence.

[767] A different species.

[768] Like, a different species of an animal.

[769] I was like, no, and that's why I tell people all the time in Stockton that talent and intellect are universal or at least widely distributed, but resources and opportunities are.

[770] And I think to your point, I tell people all the time that it's actually nonsensical and not sustainable to possess that a black kid has to be born in a country with a history of racism have a mom at 16 have a father incarcerated has to have three moms who work incredibly hard were super strict has to have had access to preschool and books and things of that sort has to do almost perfectly in school despite being kicked out of class and despite having teachers who were racist, who had to save lunch money to buy SAT prep books, to teach themselves to prepare for the SAT, how they do well to SAT, how they meet a woman online to help him when it's caused up with patients, gets lucky enough to be picked to Stanford, and then that person can lead.

[771] That's just ridiculous.

[772] And I think people like you and Obama both weirdly help and hurt, right?

[773] Like there's this, like, oh, good.

[774] So Tubbs proved that this system is full of opportunity and Obama proved that this system's full of opportunity.

[775] But if you're just looking at the percentages, you're talking, you know, less than any 1 % sure.

[776] With all those things you just listed, yes, someone can transcend that.

[777] And it's funny because in high school, I really believed in this idea of exceptionalism.

[778] But now I'm like, even the word exceptionalism conveys that we understand it's not sustainable or, It's exceptional.

[779] It's way beyond the norm.

[780] It's not what it's expected.

[781] That's why I annoy people by talking about structure so much and talking about despite sort of what I've been able to achieve with a lot of help, despite all that, like all these things are still wrong and all these things still need to change.

[782] And even the systems I've benefited from, like the fact that I was, me and my wife were talking about this now.

[783] Like it will be terrible for my son to have a leg up at admission at Stanford just because both his parents went to Stanford, then then Michael Tubbson stopped it.

[784] and if my son gets the spot, that's terrible.

[785] That's just not okay.

[786] And I think it annoys people, but it's so real.

[787] We could get distracted from like, oh, wow, there's one story.

[788] But how many people in this country have people in parents incarcerated?

[789] I'm unique in that I'm a mayor with someone, a father who's incarcerated.

[790] This country incarcerates more people than every other country in the world combined.

[791] So there's a whole millions and millions of folk who have parents incarcerated.

[792] So the fact that one of us is successful.

[793] I worked my ass off to get into UCLA.

[794] I did not get there out of high school.

[795] Let's just say that.

[796] And so part of it's like, oh shit, my girls could maybe go to UCLA.

[797] Like they could have a little, just a little 10 % that I killed myself to get them.

[798] That's pretty tempting.

[799] I want to taste that.

[800] And I guess what I'm asking is, can you a little bit see how the system perpetuates itself?

[801] Like, once you're on the inside of the party, you're very incentivized to keep that door closed.

[802] Yeah, because a party is nice.

[803] I met my wife.

[804] It's a nice party.

[805] I get it.

[806] Like, I get why people want to live in nice neighborhoods.

[807] I get it.

[808] I get why people want to go to good schools.

[809] I met my wife at Stanford, met all my best friends at Stanford.

[810] I literally only the mayor of Stockton because I went to, there's no way folks in Stockton were like the 25 -year -old black guy who didn't go.

[811] It was still a stretch for me. So I get it.

[812] I continue to remind myself that, because I used to have real feelings of survivor skill.

[813] And I realized that, no, you have to just put purpose to your privilege and then understand that there's enough for everyone.

[814] So you don't have to hoard.

[815] I think that's the shift.

[816] It's kind of like you're operating with a zero -sum notion, right?

[817] So it's like once you're inside the party, you're like, if I'm going to lose these privileges by letting everyone else in, then again, I'm disincentivized to let everyone else in.

[818] But if we have an ethos in this country where it's like, no, no, everyone can do it all.

[819] There is enough for everyone, and we can all have this great thing I'm now experiencing at the party.

[820] Open up the gates and let everyone into the party, right?

[821] That's the goal.

[822] I think part of it is, though, I do think a lot of people like being special.

[823] I think a lot of people like being the only one.

[824] No, and I think for some people, it's so alluring that they close the door.

[825] And I think that's why I'm so open to, like, the first thing I did in college was create a program to help kids apply to college and have Stanford students help them with their application.

[826] essays.

[827] And say, look, let's get as many people here as possible, understanding that that scarcely benefits nobody.

[828] And I think particularly understanding that all the party I'm able to enjoy is because someone else was at the party and thought, like, hey, let me go outside for a little bit to make sure Michael Tubbs could come into and just realize that, like, I didn't do this.

[829] Like, there's people like John Lewis nearly in the party, got beat up outside the party, bled at four of the party.

[830] Like, just all these things was inside, I said, don't just go back outside, like, make sure everyone gets in.

[831] It's like, no, you have to.

[832] I think part of Austin is being a Christian and understanding that it's to hoard, to not give, it's antithetical to what you say you believe.

[833] Yeah, yeah.

[834] You probably hate this question, but I must ask it.

[835] What kind of aspirations do you have?

[836] How long can you be mayor?

[837] There's our term limits?

[838] Yeah, yeah, it's term limits.

[839] So I'm running for re -election now.

[840] Oh, okay.

[841] I'm re -elected in November.

[842] I get four more years, maximum.

[843] Do you think you will want to go into some private world?

[844] Do you think you'll be more effective there?

[845] Do you think you want to become the governor of this enormous state, the eighth biggest economy in the world?

[846] What do you want to do?

[847] Yeah, I think that's a good question.

[848] It's coming up more and more now.

[849] Well, first I'll say in 2024, I would have spent 12 years in local government.

[850] And most of those years aren't spent talking to cool people on podcasts or watching HBO documentaries.

[851] That's like 0 .01 % of the 12 years experience.

[852] And a lot of it's just not sexy.

[853] A lot of it's actually very annoying and draining.

[854] But some of it's great.

[855] Like we actually get stuff done.

[856] So I think after 2024, I'll be 34, my wife and I would just have to have a conversation about sort of the sacrifices we're making in terms of my time, her time, profile, etc. Are we actually making enough change to justify it?

[857] Because for me, it's not about being in office.

[858] It's about like the office is in the end.

[859] It's a means to the end, the end being how to, to create a more fair and equitable opportunity structure in this country.

[860] So to say that, I'll say in 2024, if there's a political office that makes sense and we feel like, okay, we'll be able to actually do something that makes us proud of what we're giving up to do it.

[861] Absolutely.

[862] But being a politician going to like chicken dinners, that's not appealing, actually.

[863] But they're like, oh, we can actually do some things and fix these systems.

[864] Yeah.

[865] But I also know I spend a lot of my time talking to folks in the private sector.

[866] folks who employ lots of people, folks who invest in a lot of companies, foundations who give a lot of money, folks who are advocating and pushing for better, and I've seen how each of them also have a role of play.

[867] So I think for me it would be just taking stop and figuring out what's the best way to actually make the changes or to have the influence on the things I care about.

[868] And it's going to be either in government or in media or in the private sector or in philanthropy or in some weird mix of all four.

[869] usually all the webbers we try to pool to kind of get the stuff we're doing and stop and try to make it happen.

[870] Okay.

[871] So a friend of mine brought this up yesterday.

[872] I saw a lot of validity in his argument.

[873] He was venting about having watched some of the proceedings with all the tech guys on Capitol Hill right now, getting kind of grilled.

[874] And he said in particular he was watching this one congressman, just grilling Jeff Bezos, right?

[875] Just calling him every name under the book and just insulting him in all ways.

[876] And my friend said, you know, here's one guy who is fucking shined in this pandemic, right?

[877] You couldn't have done better than Amazon did, right?

[878] They have mobilized in a way.

[879] They're so successful.

[880] They're meeting the needs of every consumer in America.

[881] And you have this fucking overweight asshole representing government as if they're doing something spectacularly, right?

[882] What have you guys did with COVID?

[883] Great job.

[884] You know, how the fuck, how dare someone that's so ineffective be yelling at someone who's so effective the irony of that a little bit like we have income inequality and that's horrendous and that's an issue that needs to be solved but to put all your ire about that onto this person who's just really operating at an incredibly high level no one can argue that and make that person the enemy also just again looking at bill gates and going yeah okay he assembled this thing and guess what he's giving it all back he's also going to be able to do things that the government can't do that other people can't do he is he has made himself an island, one that can weather the barrage of insults and second guessing, and he can make some hard decisions with that war chest he has.

[885] So I guess I see the value in some of these billionaires, and I'm a little nervous of the left just kind of labeling billionaires as bad guys.

[886] Now, there are some fucking bad guy billionaires, no question, but I don't know about having a class of people we hate because they've succeeded.

[887] What do you think about all that?

[888] I think that the issue isn't with a person or individual success.

[889] I think we should celebrate success.

[890] The issues with the system, and they are operating within their framework of rules that we've all agreed to by virtue of being part of this government.

[891] So if there's an issue, the senator should be mad at the senator.

[892] Like, why don't you have the right guard rails to create the boundaries with which folks can be entrepreneurs?

[893] So I think I don't want tech people to be policymakers.

[894] They shouldn't be making the policy.

[895] They can help inform, they can help advocate, but the fact that we expect them to do the government's job.

[896] virtually.

[897] Yeah, and that's why I mentioned Jeff Bezos.

[898] I said no hate to Jeff Bezos.

[899] He's a smart guy.

[900] But if we could find a way to make Jeff Bezos $13 billion in one day, we have to be able to find policies and laws that make it so 13 million people are hungry.

[901] Yeah, yeah.

[902] My issue is not with Jeff Bezos, Evan Spiegel, who's a dear friend of mine, like a brother to me. Do your thing, man. That was a great idea.

[903] You work incredibly hard.

[904] I've seen it since college.

[905] But let's just have a conversation about how do you make more stories like yours as possible and how do you make sure your success that's wildly felt by all the people who help make you successful.

[906] But I don't get when they're grilling these people about their regulation.

[907] I'm like, you set the regulations.

[908] Yeah, not one of them has broken the law.

[909] No one's accusing them of breaking any laws yet they're on trial right now.

[910] It's weird to me because I'm like, you want, I know what I'm playing pickup basketball.

[911] I'm trying to win.

[912] I'm not calling all the fuck.

[913] Yes.

[914] But the referees shouldn't be mad at the players.

[915] The referees should be mad at the referees and say, hey, this game has gotten out of hand.

[916] Let's make sure we are enforcing out of balance.

[917] Make sure we're enforcing falls.

[918] But instead, the referees want to, like, yell at the players.

[919] And the players are like, I'm just playing the game.

[920] And I think that thing is.

[921] But refereeing is hard because you're going to make some people mad.

[922] Like, again, if you're used to playing a game with no rules and there's rules, maybe you can do $10 billion in a day and not $13 billion.

[923] And that may annoy you.

[924] But I think as policymakers, you have to have a little bit of courage.

[925] But I'm also worried, and I don't live in the country where people's success is demonized, where you are a bad guy because you are successful.

[926] You went to school.

[927] You had a good idea.

[928] Good.

[929] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[930] Well, you're wonderful.

[931] You're very exciting for us to keep an eye on.

[932] In addition to doing a great job up there, you're just a really fun story to watch.

[933] As much as you hated every conversation was about your age, you realize pretty soon I'm going to give a shit about that.

[934] No, so I turned 30 on the second.

[935] So I was telling someone yesterday, I said, you know, I used to always complain, like, young this, young this, I'm going to miss that because now, even now, my feathers were for a little bit when there's, like, someone younger.

[936] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[937] And like, in a meeting, I'm like, who is this young person?

[938] I'm the young person, right, though, so I'm actually, I'm going to miss it.

[939] But I think, luckily for me, as a right now, my career is politics, and everyone's like, wait, like, I'll be young for the next 20 years.

[940] but yeah yeah that's true let me 50 years old like the young man from Stockton but if I was like in tech or something I would be like an OG they'd be gently talking about how to put you out to past year with some golden parachute I think he's not as innovative he's lost a step he doesn't have the same hunger he has a family now so I do think by age has been such a gift because it's allowed me to work with all types of people makes it like safer I think to work with me for people all right well i hope we talk to you again because it's a great resource for us to have to kind of check in with these innovative policies you're you're trying out absolutely this is like therapy so i appreciate that oh good good good good we'll talk more about mom yeah we need to hold two hours on mom seriously thanks again so much for your time and i can't wait to talk to you again sounds good brother thank you guys for having me all right be good follow armchair expert on the wondry app amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts you You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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