402 - Staunch Women

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hard Start.

[3] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] This is a podcast.

[5] That is Karen speaking.

[6] This is me speaking.

[7] That's Georgia speaking.

[8] This is me speaking.

[9] I know you keep messing us up.

[10] And you're like, which one's which?

[11] From the beginning of this podcast, people have so strongly been like, I could have sworn that one was you.

[12] Where it's like, fucking why?

[13] And also, what are you talking about?

[14] I don't understand it.

[15] I feel like my voice matches my face.

[16] And I feel like your voice matches your eyebrows and cheekbones.

[17] Pretty well.

[18] You know what I mean?

[19] You're saying sharp.

[20] I hear it.

[21] Sharp and like clean and radio and determined.

[22] Or mine's a little more like do, do, do, do, like, I have bangs.

[23] I have dimples.

[24] Where is she going today?

[25] You know, why is she wearing that?

[26] I think that's made for a grandma or a child.

[27] that kind of thing.

[28] Do you know that there was just an article in somewhere that was about the multi -million dollar industry of making clothes for women to dress like children?

[29] Oh, God.

[30] And you were the first person I thought of where I'm like, not children, but like it's like the 60s teenager look that was so cool at the time, the Mary Quant look or whatever, that's like, yeah, people still want that style.

[31] I mean, me in high school, skinny as a rail.

[32] going to thrift stores, heading straight to the children's, a vintage children section.

[33] Yeah.

[34] And just being like, yep, I mean, that does not happen anymore and could not happen.

[35] I would, like, Hulk rip open those precious garments, but, you know.

[36] One of the greatest live show moments that we've ever had was you ripping the back off out of your own dress.

[37] Just by breathing out hard.

[38] Yes.

[39] I didn't rip it open with my hands.

[40] I went, you ripped it open with sheer will.

[41] And you had the microphone.

[42] up against it so the opening was loud.

[43] I mean, I think that for the people in the audience that day, night, evening, it was a do -do -do -do -do of let's do this thing.

[44] You think that was a feminist moment for me too?

[45] I mean, it could have been.

[46] It's like, please, I need it.

[47] It's basically saying let's bust out of these constraints of society and do what we fucking want for once.

[48] That's right.

[49] I would love if I would wear in clothes.

[50] and could also breed at the same time, patriarchy.

[51] I don't know about you.

[52] Imagine if I made choices that were comfortable for me first and didn't consider others.

[53] Right.

[54] Imagine if my real waist size was okay.

[55] Yeah.

[56] Imagine that.

[57] And then here we are in 2023.

[58] Is that a time that's coming?

[59] Feels like it to me. I do think that like shapeware is like kind of on the outs.

[60] People are like not a big as a fan of it.

[61] then I take my shirt off and I'm wearing a full skims, skims under.

[62] You also can't see me from the boobs down that I'm just sitting like with like a potato.

[63] With a little, with a little tutu on.

[64] Yeah.

[65] Yeah, because who truly in this economy, people are going to fucking worry about shapewear.

[66] Go to hell.

[67] Yeah.

[68] Totally.

[69] I mean, I'm fine with them.

[70] Honestly, I have them myself.

[71] But I know that it's like we're supposed to be appreciating our lovely bodies.

[72] the patriarchy demands it that we start appreciating our body there's a whole fucking the new rules yeah the new rules you have to spend money on liking your body instead of spending money on not liking your body ugh oh capitalism gross how about we stay home and watch TV and don't think about our body I was going to say speaking of TV but then I was going to tell you about the kiss show I went to the other day why don't you I want to hear about that so Vince and I went last week to see kiss at the Hollywood Bowl I had never seen them before.

[73] And I normally wouldn't have if Vince was like, I really think you'll like it.

[74] Like it's a good show, you know?

[75] Yeah.

[76] And it was and it was really fun.

[77] But I guess, okay, I went to the bathroom with Vince.

[78] I come out.

[79] Kiss is playing.

[80] Yes.

[81] I saw an actor.

[82] One that I didn't think I lose my shit over seeing this person.

[83] And I kind of got like shaky and sweaty because it's a childhood thing.

[84] Oh, oh.

[85] And we just talked about him recently on a minisode.

[86] Your childhood is different than my childhood.

[87] I always forget that.

[88] It was my crush in elementary school, like my actor crush that I got to see in person and he blew me off so hard.

[89] Okay.

[90] And can you give me, was he, he was on TV?

[91] He was in movies.

[92] He was in movies.

[93] He was like one of the darlings.

[94] Okay.

[95] He's in a band now.

[96] Pretty troubled.

[97] Pretty troubled.

[98] Oh, Corey Feldman?

[99] That's right.

[100] You saw Corey Feldman in real.

[101] life.

[102] I saw Corey Feldman, Ben said, don't look over there, but Corey Feldman's over there.

[103] And I was like, oh, my God.

[104] So immediately, like, we go in this little store where he's going in to get, like, snacks or whatever.

[105] And I'm, like, buying something.

[106] And he's, like, asking for a lighter in a really intense way to everyone.

[107] And I was like, I'm so sorry.

[108] I never do this.

[109] Can I get a photo with you?

[110] Like, because he really was my, like, childhood love.

[111] And, like, being Jewish, too, it was like, oh, there's a Jewish actor who's, like, beloved and heartthrob, which doesn't happen on.

[112] often, you know, or didn't then?

[113] And he said, do you have a lighter?

[114] And I said, no. And he just walked away.

[115] Oh, no. You were like, but I just told you a story about my heart.

[116] I didn't tell him that much, but he definitely was just not interested in hearing it anyway.

[117] Oh my God.

[118] It was such a moment and it was embarrassing.

[119] But also, don't you feel like that's, you got a true Corey Feldman moment?

[120] I did.

[121] I did.

[122] I do.

[123] I mean, if he had been like, absolutely, get over here.

[124] What's your name?

[125] You'd have been like, wait, what?

[126] No, I would have been like, what a nice guy.

[127] What a down to earth, nice guy.

[128] Not someone who yells, do you have a lighter in my face and then walks away.

[129] Yes, but we know that Corey's, the Corrie's both went through so much shit.

[130] He is, he's been through, like, he's unsupervised child actor in the 80s.

[131] He has been through the worst of it.

[132] And now he's just trying to, like, enjoy himself.

[133] And everywhere he goes, he either gets people who are kind of like, oh, it's Corey Feldman, like, it's a joke.

[134] Or he is girls that are like, wait, have a moment with me. And he's like, I just need to smoke these new ports before Kiss starts.

[135] He had so much vinyl on, too.

[136] He, like, made noise when he walked.

[137] It was pretty impressive.

[138] Yeah.

[139] Yeah.

[140] What's up with you?

[141] Okay.

[142] Changing this.

[143] I'm like sweating, thinking about it right now.

[144] Oh, well, also, what a vulnerable kind of like, you said it out loud and maybe in front of the employee or whatever, like there's witnesses.

[145] And you were just like, hey, like, I'm trying to make you feel great.

[146] Yeah, big fan.

[147] No. And he said, no, thanks.

[148] Yeah, fair enough.

[149] That's why you shouldn't wear a corset for men anymore.

[150] I'm just saying.

[151] I think he had one on.

[152] He can do what he wants.

[153] That's a different fight.

[154] Let's see.

[155] What is going on with me for God's sake?

[156] Well, I just finished a book.

[157] And this is a book I've been trying to talk about or wanting to talk about every time you've been like, I just finished a book I love.

[158] And I'm like, oh, pretty soon I'll be done with that book.

[159] But of course, I just am the slowest reader and just an in bed nighttime reader.

[160] So I just, I'm real casual about it.

[161] Yeah.

[162] But if you read my year of rest and relaxation by Otessa Mosheg.

[163] Yes.

[164] Then this book, I just got.

[165] I got it because I was like, oh my God, she's such a great writer.

[166] So I just bought this.

[167] And it's called Lapvona.

[168] And there's the cover.

[169] It looks to me like a dead lamb on the cover of it.

[170] It does.

[171] Ooh, it's really like menacing.

[172] Yes.

[173] And it is basically the story of a village.

[174] She never says what year it is.

[175] And it's just everything that happens in this village and then in the king or prince who lives nearby.

[176] And it is so good and so real.

[177] The other reason it took me, so long to read it is because it was just like she would describe things and I would get a stomach because it was like how gross this one thing was.

[178] Is it like old time year where it's like there's like outhouses and cooking things is real gross and I think it's pre outhouse era.

[179] I think it was supposed to be in like the 500.

[180] I don't really know.

[181] Yeah.

[182] Maybe maybe I'm supposed to know if there's a description.

[183] Maybe it's in the first line of the description.

[184] Yeah, maybe they're like it's crucial that you know this is 1208 AD or whatever, but I didn't pay attention.

[185] Anyway, I loved it.

[186] I just, I love, obviously, reading great reading.

[187] But like, I go and read sentences again because I'm like, how did you do that?

[188] Like, how did you just do that and put it on the page?

[189] It's great.

[190] It's so unfair.

[191] Do you ever read a book?

[192] You're like, that's the one I wish I had written.

[193] I wish I'd written that.

[194] It's so frustrating.

[195] Yes.

[196] Like, oh, you can just do that?

[197] I didn't know.

[198] Yeah.

[199] I think about like, they did it, but then they edited it.

[200] So there was more of this.

[201] And there was like even like maybe less clean decisions, but there would have been more on the page.

[202] I don't know.

[203] Yeah.

[204] Yeah.

[205] Yeah.

[206] We wrote a book.

[207] Hey, did you see it came out in Vietnamese, I think?

[208] Oh, our book?

[209] Yeah.

[210] I was like, LaVona did?

[211] I don't know.

[212] Stay sexy and Don't Get Murder.

[213] It just came out in Vietnamese.

[214] And the cover is really cool, too.

[215] It's pretty exciting.

[216] That covers very cool.

[217] Yeah, it's creepy.

[218] It's cool.

[219] It's great.

[220] So grab a copy of our Vietnamese edition of if you're over there, and you can read Vietnamese, which we assume if you live there.

[221] Sure, sure.

[222] Or maybe could there be a person that's living over there just listening to podcasts and basically surviving in a bubble of unlearned language?

[223] Definitely.

[224] An expat.

[225] I think they're called expats.

[226] Let's talk to a bunch of the different things that could be happening in the world right now.

[227] Could there be a baker?

[228] Let's say.

[229] It's the 1500s and there's a baker.

[230] And her name is Maureen.

[231] Maureen.

[232] She invents the bicycle.

[233] That's right.

[234] She loves podcasts.

[235] Literally, there are people who this is the first time they've listened to this podcast and they're like, I don't get why people like it and I'm out.

[236] We get you.

[237] We get that.

[238] We're on your side.

[239] We've been asking us.

[240] Same question for almost eight years.

[241] Hey, we're trying to roll with it, ma 'am.

[242] Maureen.

[243] Maureen, God damn it.

[244] Maureen the baker.

[245] Here's something fun.

[246] So, yeah.

[247] The last episode, I covered the story, the very unfortunate body snatching story of Clara Loper.

[248] And we actually got an email from a listener.

[249] Do you want to hear it?

[250] Always, yes.

[251] It's about that.

[252] And the subject line is med school anatomy lab.

[253] and then it says heartfelt update with a smiley face.

[254] Hi, Karen, Georgia Pets, and MFM crew.

[255] I just finished listening to Episode 400, and then in parentheses, it says, whoa.

[256] And I thought, I'd let you all know how anatomy lab at my med school went.

[257] I went to Crichton University in Omaha, Nebraska, from 2015 to 2019.

[258] We had about 150 students in my class and anatomy lab groups of five or so.

[259] So we had quite a few donors to help us learn.

[260] We didn't get to know their real names, but we did learn their ages and cause of death.

[261] My group named our guy, Larry.

[262] It was interesting learning about him as we went along, like he had gotten a hip replacement we didn't know about until we got there.

[263] Wow.

[264] The vast majority of the donors had specifically asked for their bodies to be donated to Crichton, and our professors made sure to impress upon us the importance of their donation.

[265] It was all very respectful always.

[266] The cool thing I wanted to tell you about is after our semester of anatomy lab, we had a ceremony honoring all of our donors.

[267] The families of those who donated were invited, and the anatomy group got to meet them and talk about the actual life of our donors.

[268] It was incredible meeting the kids and grandkids of Larry.

[269] Learning about his life and why he wanted to donate really helped us further appreciate the gift he had given us.

[270] my anatomy group is now made of a pediatrician in parentheses me a family med doc a surgeon and a neurologist all who wouldn't be here today without the selfless dognation made by larry and his family anyways i thought i'd give a little insight on the updates since grave robbing went out of fashion stay sexy and donate life becca she her oh my god becca that is incredible thank you i'm just thinking about that hip replacement where it's like Yeah, you have to go in there and really figure out what's going on.

[271] That's fascinating.

[272] Well, and also what a great update to basically say, hey, we've updated humanity since your story.

[273] And this is how we actually do it now.

[274] Like, I love that.

[275] Yeah.

[276] And it's so cool that there's so many different professions in their little group because everyone needs to know that stuff.

[277] So I guess we're supposed to donate our bodies to our alma maters, which so Los Angeles City College, get ready for me. yep even though i dropped out for you they're like we don't have this person on file we don't know why she donated her body here she actually needs to retake algebra still sorry we won't take her body until she passes she owes us $250 thanks becca that was awesome very cool that was genuinely a great update it was I love that if you ever have a connection to a story send it in we'd love to hear it absolutely should we do a little ERM network news let's do it oh network news that's a good for it.

[278] Oh, look at that.

[279] So Millie and Danielle, hosts of I Saw What You Did, they usually try and keep the exact theme of their episodes a secret.

[280] But sometimes we can't help but sense a connection.

[281] And this week's double feature includes the Lion in Winter from 1968 and on Golden Pond from 1981, both of which happened to star the legendary Catherine Hepburn.

[282] I saw what you did.

[283] Comes out every Tuesday.

[284] So don't forget to subscribe.

[285] So you have lots of suggested viewing all winter long.

[286] I'm reading this piece of paper along with Georgia, and I still wanted to yell Catherine Hepburn the second that I saw on Golden Pond, and I made the connection before I read down further.

[287] I love it.

[288] Something deeply wrong with me. Okay, over on ghosted by Ros Hernandez, Roz is joined by comedian Galey to talk about spooky paranormal things.

[289] Megan co -hosts the podcast, I Love My Kid, But with Banana Boy, Kurt Bronler.

[290] And on buried bones, Kate and Paul wrap up a two -part series on the murder of Vera Page, a London girl who was killed in 1931.

[291] Okay, so because these episodes get recorded a little bit early, and we don't really know what's happening in the future, but if all goes well, the new MFM merch store is firing on all cylinders, so please go look at it.

[292] We have the cutest new artwork on our sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags.

[293] There's even a new ornament for the holidays, and the plan is, so the person who wrote this paragraph is also the person in charge of the new merch store.

[294] You can tell because she's literally like, don't fire me if this doesn't happen.

[295] I think it already happened.

[296] I think we're good.

[297] Aaron, you're fired.

[298] The plan is for everything to ship by early December.

[299] So you can buy the murderino in your life some Christmas gifts on there.

[300] And we'll be working hard to ensure that your items are received in time for any winter festivity you might be celebrating.

[301] So head over to myfavorter .com and check out those goods, please.

[302] That's right.

[303] And a quick little update.

[304] If you listen to my favorite murder on the Apple Podcast app, there are a few changes with the new iOS 17 update that you need to pay attention to, please.

[305] So Apple is now pausing downloads on podcasts if your phone is running out of storage or if you haven't listened in a while.

[306] So be sure that there's available space so you can continue to receive weekly episodes automatically downloaded and make sure that you listen regularly so you don't miss the new shows.

[307] And this affects all podcasts.

[308] So anything you listen to you guys, make sure that you're following, make sure you have enough room in your phone because it's kind of really important to us.

[309] Yes.

[310] So head over to Apple Podcasts and click the follow button on all your favorite podcasts.

[311] Get your phone cleaned up and new episodes will be automatically downloaded each week.

[312] And we really appreciate it.

[313] Yeah.

[314] That's a little preventative measure for you.

[315] That's right.

[316] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[317] Absolutely.

[318] And when you say vintage, you mean, when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[319] Exactly.

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[335] Goodbye.

[336] Okay, so I'm going first this week.

[337] Today, I'm going to tell you about a lesser -known female serial killer who managed to brazenly operate in her Chicago neighborhood for close to 10 years.

[338] This is the story of the premonition poisoner, Tilly Clemack.

[339] Ooh.

[340] My main source for the story is a book called The Promenition Poisoner, the true story of serial killer Tilly Clemach by Charlize Ellis.

[341] So you can go pick that up.

[342] So Otilia Gerbeck, that's her name, or Tilly, as I'm going to call her, is born in Poland in 1876, but immigrates to the United States with her parents when she's a baby and the family settles in Chicago's little Poland neighborhood, which is a huge hub for Polish immigrants.

[343] So imagine that late 1800s in Chicago, what a time to be alive, maybe.

[344] I mean, I bet it smelled amazing.

[345] But the first thing I imagined was like, ooh, like parrogies and perhaps, some summer sausages, delicious.

[346] So when Tilly is about 20 years old, although somewhere I saw when she was like 14 years old, so I'm not totally clear on that.

[347] Tilly marries a man named Yosef Mitkovich or Joseph, as he tends to be known to people who don't speak Polish.

[348] So I'm going to call him Joseph.

[349] Okay.

[350] Turns out Joseph is not a great husband.

[351] He tends to drink a lot.

[352] he doesn't work much, and he is at least verbally abusive.

[353] Tilly and Joseph have two children, a son and a daughter.

[354] And in January of 1914, after almost 20 years of marriage, when Tilly is about 38 years old, she walks into a fabric shop to buy material for a black dress.

[355] When the store clerk sympathetically asked Tilly when her husband died, because, you know, black dresses are for morning, Tilly says, 10 days from now.

[356] This check out a sense of humor, by the way.

[357] you imagine that shopkeeper.

[358] You're just like, great, moving on.

[359] Also, why did you, okay, well, I guess we're getting to know Tilly right now, but this being the first piece of information I'm learning about her.

[360] It's not a great, it's not a great start.

[361] No. So low and behold, Tilly's prediction that her husband's going to die in 10 days comes true.

[362] Joseph comes down with flu -like symptoms and his condition rapidly deteriorates.

[363] Just like Tilly predicted, Joseph dies about 10 days after she's bought the fabric for her morning dress.

[364] His death certificate list his cause of death as heart trouble.

[365] Joseph leaves behind an insurance policy, shoppingly, of $1 ,000, which would be worth how much in today's dollars?

[366] $350 ,000.

[367] $30 ,000.

[368] It just seemed like it should be more than that, though, right?

[369] Yeah, and also, I'm proud of myself for finding that three.

[370] There is my psychic powers are proven, not disproven.

[371] As I like to say, you're closer to right than wrong.

[372] I'll take it.

[373] I don't know what it means.

[374] The people of Little Poland are basically devout Catholics.

[375] At the same time, there's a kind of superstition and folk magic in the culture, you know, from the old world, especially around the idea of women who are healers and seers.

[376] Like, they believe in that.

[377] So Little Poland is an insular place where everyone knows everyone else.

[378] So word quickly spreads about Tilly's accurate prediction.

[379] And instead of being suspicious, they're like, ooh, she predicted that, you know?

[380] And so she quickly launches a side hustle as a fortune teller.

[381] But it seems that she's not making a lot of money from fortune telling.

[382] It's more like she likes the respect or fear that people treat her with because of these apparent abilities.

[383] She's also known to point at various stray dogs and cats in the neighborhood and accurately predict their deaths.

[384] And act really scared.

[385] Sorry.

[386] That's what it sounded like you're going to say.

[387] So sorry.

[388] Wait.

[389] So she's kind of turning that like cat in the homestown.

[390] hospital that lays on the person that's going to die next.

[391] She's turning that whole concept entirely on its head and being like, you there, cat.

[392] Right.

[393] The cat's like, meow, it's just like you're dead.

[394] So only one month after Tilly's first husband dies in February of 1914, Tilly remarries.

[395] This new husband is referred to in public records as both John Ruchkoski and or Joseph Roushkovsky.

[396] And because nearly every other man in the story is also named Joseph, I'm going to call him Joseph.

[397] Great.

[398] There's a lot of Joseph's in this.

[399] She had a thing for Josephs.

[400] What are you calling the first Joseph?

[401] Or is this the first Joseph?

[402] This is the second Joseph.

[403] I'll call him Joseph 2.

[404] Okay.

[405] Not long after they're married, Tilly says she's seeing visions of his corpse and fears he'll die soon.

[406] So the following May, Joseph 2 does in fact die after a brief illness leaving behind $1 ,200 in cash and a $722 life insurance policy.

[407] So this nets Tilly a grand total of almost two grand, which would be almost 60 grand in today's money, which is a lot, especially back then, right?

[408] So in four months, Tilly has made the equivalent of 90 grand on her dead husbands.

[409] Wow.

[410] So Tilly has made a nice little annual salary in the span of four months and could afford to relax for a bit and just keep busy with the occasional fortune telling gig.

[411] She doesn't do this.

[412] At the end of 1914, the same year her first and second husbands die, Tilly meets another man, Joseph three.

[413] call him she meets him through the marriage a marriage broker who arranged her first marriage so there's like a marriage that's wild right a marriage broker yeah that's kind of old school but it is that thing of like you want a nice Polish girl to meet a nice Polish boy right you know in your section of Chicago right yeah there's got to be some disgruntled marriage brokers back then who were just like let's see what happens with these two and just like pairs people up because he's bored or whatever it's not really sincere yeah this Joseph three has told the broker that he will only marry someone very beautiful.

[414] How different.

[415] I know.

[416] Clever.

[417] He's cutting edge, this man. And Tilly is mainly described as being plain or dowdy, but Joseph makes an exception because he has heard that Tilly is very rich.

[418] He also has heard that she's a great cook, which is like, it's known about her.

[419] She makes a good stew, apparently, which probably all they ate back then, I'm imagining.

[420] Also, who can't is like literally throw it in a pot?

[421] Pretty easy.

[422] Yeah.

[423] Salt.

[424] Just keep adding salt.

[425] Sorry, wait.

[426] Really quick.

[427] I can't.

[428] Shit.

[429] And I won't, Joseph the third.

[430] I refuse.

[431] Tilly and Joseph decide to enter into a trial relationship, which I think we should bring back.

[432] Yeah.

[433] To see if a marriage between them will work, but there's some problems right away.

[434] Tilly's bummed to hear that Joseph doesn't have a life insurance policy, which is romantic.

[435] It's heartbreaking.

[436] Yeah.

[437] They remain engaged between.

[438] Tilly knows it's only a matter of time before Joseph's going to leave her, and this alone, the thought of that pisses her off.

[439] By this point, some people have their suspicions about Tilly.

[440] In fact, some of Joseph III's family have warned him not to eat anything she cooks for him because, like, the rumor's out.

[441] Oh.

[442] But he can't keep himself from Tilly's stew.

[443] Is that an innuendo?

[444] I don't know.

[445] It sounds dirty for sure.

[446] He can't help himself.

[447] Not only that, but over the period of their engagement, Joseph III's sister and brother, each get into arguments with Tilly, then accept a peace offering from her in the form of food.

[448] So Tilly's just dishing it up.

[449] Did they get sick?

[450] Yep.

[451] The brother gets some food.

[452] What do I was like?

[453] No. Just mentioning that.

[454] Anyway, moving on.

[455] The brother gets some food and moonshine becomes very ill and dies.

[456] Oh.

[457] And before 1914 is over and before Tilly and Joseph even get married, Joseph three, as well become sick and dies.

[458] So, yeah, lots of people falling around her feet.

[459] Okay.

[460] Yeah, not good.

[461] No. So in the course of one single year, two husbands, one boyfriend, and at least two other people, as well as various neighborhood animals, have all become sick and died after eating food from Tilly.

[462] And some people are getting suspicious.

[463] So why is Tilly still allowed to go around predicting people's deaths and giving them food, you ask?

[464] One thing to keep in mind is that this is a point.

[465] poor, fairly dense neighborhood in 1914.

[466] So disease and death are pretty rampant.

[467] So it's actually not that weird for people around you to die regularly.

[468] Just not that many, I feel like.

[469] Yeah.

[470] In the same period, Chicago experienced three different epidemics, one right after the other.

[471] The first was cholera.

[472] The second was tuberculosis.

[473] And the third was influenza.

[474] So a real bummer all around.

[475] So there was a lot of death.

[476] Yes, for sure.

[477] These epidemics, of course, as they I do, all disproportionately affected poor people and the ones we're living in dense neighborhoods, where there was still minimal public health and sanitation efforts.

[478] So between 1915 to 1920, Tilly stops looking for husbands and instead focuses on her fortune telling and some of her other relationships.

[479] She dials it down.

[480] Yeah, she pumps the brakes.

[481] Good.

[482] So in 1920, Tilly, who's now about 44 years old, gets a job at a factory.

[483] By now she's run through most of her life insurance money.

[484] And at this job, she meets a man not named Joseph.

[485] His name is Frank Kupchik.

[486] Hey.

[487] He's referred to as a widower, but this is actually unclear based on census records.

[488] Still, all accounts of Frank says that he is a nice, mild -mannered man. In early 1921, after a very brief courtship, Tilly and Frank get married.

[489] At first, this seems like a happier marriage than any of the previous ones.

[490] Frank and Tilly are relatively prosperous, and they move into a nice apartment.

[491] Frank goes to work until he stays home, but there are some seeds of trouble.

[492] The apartment has crossed the street from a cemetery, and a grave digger in the cemetery starts spreading gossip around town that Tilly has regular male visitors who tend to come while Frank is at work.

[493] A gossipy grave digger.

[494] I bet he sees some shit, right?

[495] Yeah.

[496] And also, I just love that as a character.

[497] I don't know.

[498] If you see a grave digger in a book or a movie or really, whatever, is always like, oh, he's all sullen.

[499] Or it's like, no, it actually makes more sense.

[500] And he's like, hey, life's going on.

[501] Let's talk about everything that's going on.

[502] Also, he's, like, quietly grave digging.

[503] And it looks like he's just minding his biz, but he's really listening to the conversations going on around him.

[504] Yep.

[505] And watching dudes walk up and down the back stairs or whatever.

[506] That's right.

[507] Never underestimated a grave digger, I guess.

[508] Never, never, never.

[509] So ultimately, Frank doesn't escape the same fate as all the Joseph.

[510] who came before him.

[511] That was from Allie.

[512] She wrote that.

[513] It was very clever.

[514] That's a good line.

[515] After only a few weeks of marriage, Frank two falls ill. She's not subtle about this.

[516] At the beginning of Frank's illness, the couple's landlady visits the apartment and sees Tilly sitting by his bed in her morning dress and hat.

[517] He's not even dead yet.

[518] Oh.

[519] She asked Tilly if she might be getting ahead of herself with this outfit.

[520] Tilly says that she has had a premonition and it won't be long before Frank dies.

[521] In fact, some people say that Tilly would mock Frank during this period and say things to him like, quote, it won't be long now.

[522] Jesus Christ.

[523] Yeah.

[524] She is a sociopath.

[525] Yeah.

[526] While Frank is still alive, Tilly goes out and buys a coffin for him.

[527] I mean, what's the rush?

[528] What are you doing?

[529] She boasts to him about what a good deal she got on it.

[530] Good God.

[531] Yeah.

[532] Don't do that.

[533] He's like trying to crawl out.

[534] the front door like damn she keeps grabbing him by his ankles where was the grave digger then trying out get involved the coffin is 30 dollars or a 923 dollars in today's money coffins are expensive they're so expensive tilly asked the landlady if she can store the coffin in the basement until he dies but the landlady is superstitious and says no way also sorry tillie is gossiping about herself essentially she's like putting the word in the street to make sure people are suspicious of her it feels like she's not being subtle but she keeps getting away with it so maybe she is guess where she keeps the coffin instead since she can't keep it in the basement i don't know right in the bedroom next to frank as he dies yep right in the apartment yeah it's unclear what the life insurance payout is for frank but not long after frank's death a friend of his strikes up a courtship with tilly this man is named joseph climax so joseph four the fourth joseph yeah and the is her last name at the end of this.

[535] So Joseph, four, is 51 and has been widowed and divorced.

[536] So Tilly is his third wife.

[537] Like Frank before, Joseph makes a decent living and he and Tilly move into a nice apartment together where she takes care of the home and he works.

[538] Tilly starts pestering Joseph to take out a life insurance policy.

[539] And so eventually he does.

[540] Like, you got to listen to rumors sometimes, you know.

[541] I mean, and also at this point in history, like, it's fine that these people didn't know and they weren't really hip to it.

[542] Yeah.

[543] But if any new spouse insists upon you getting insurance and is like kind of pushy, like obsessed about it or whatever, brings it up a lot.

[544] Just like, just watch your back.

[545] Totally.

[546] Don't go downstairs in front of them, I'd say.

[547] And be like, I don't feel like Stu.

[548] I don't know.

[549] It's weird.

[550] I don't feel like eating anything you could sprinkle arsenic into or whatever you're about to do.

[551] That's right.

[552] Oh, you may. made me a drink while I wasn't looking.

[553] I don't want that.

[554] Not thirsty.

[555] So he eventually does get life insurance.

[556] He also agrees to hand over his weekly pay of $26 to Tilly.

[557] And she gives him a daily allowance of $1 out of that $26.

[558] That's hot.

[559] Yeah.

[560] Essentially, in today's money, she gets $447 a week and gives him $17 a day as an allowance, which isn't that bad, right?

[561] For back then, it's probably like five cents to eat or I don't know.

[562] Is he bedridden yet?

[563] Not yet.

[564] Is he poisoned yet?

[565] So it's not a ton.

[566] No, it's not.

[567] But yeah.

[568] Shortly after Joseph takes out the life insurance policy, he gets sick.

[569] But thanks to his brother, he doesn't meet the same fate as the one, two, three, Joseph's, and the Frank who came before him.

[570] Joseph for his brother insists that he be seen by a doctor, thankfully.

[571] Yes.

[572] Over Tilly's protests, he brings a doctor to the house who immediately suspects that.

[573] Joseph's been poisoned by arsenic.

[574] Joseph is brought to the hospital and it's confirmed there.

[575] And Tilly's jig is up.

[576] Finally.

[577] Yeah.

[578] In late October of 1922, Tilly is arrested and charged with the attempted murder of Joseph Climack.

[579] She does not go quietly.

[580] This is not a wilting flower or whatever.

[581] No. She struggles with the cops and says to one of the officers, quote, the next person I'm going to make dinner for is you, end quote.

[582] So a full confession.

[583] Yeah, essentially.

[584] A confession and a threatening a cop.

[585] So cool.

[586] The one thing you can say about Tilly is she loves to confess her crimes.

[587] She does.

[588] She loves it.

[589] It's her passion.

[590] She's a battle axe and she can't keep her mouth shut.

[591] A search of Tilly's apartment reveals that she has her own stash of arsenic -based rat poison from a brand called Rough on Rats.

[592] Oh.

[593] I know.

[594] What did they do besides spread disease?

[595] The Cook County Corner orders the exhumation of Tilly.

[596] his most recent previous husband, Frank, in his body investigators find, quote, arsonic enough to kill four men.

[597] Oh, Jesus.

[598] So she did not hide that well.

[599] Police then get an anonymous tip telling them that they should exume the body of Tilly's cousin Nellie's first husband, too.

[600] And they find arsenic in his body as well.

[601] So she was like working alongside her cousin Nellie, who lived in the neighborhood as well.

[602] The coroner wisely decides to exhume the bodies of the rest of Tilly's.

[603] Joseph's.

[604] The only Joseph whose body is not exhumed is the one who Tilly dated but didn't marry.

[605] So Joseph Mitkovich and Joseph Rushkovsky are also exhumed.

[606] And all of this is being reported feverishly by the Chicago and national press.

[607] Of course, they love a black widow.

[608] Sure.

[609] And now Tilly's family finally decides to come forward to the police with stories of several relatives who died after eating food at Tilly's house or after being cared for by Tilly.

[610] So the case just gets bigger.

[611] and bigger with every person that that talks to them.

[612] That, like, anonymously is like, yeah, we've suspected this for years.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Prosecutors ultimately decide to charge Tilly with the murder of Frank, the husband she killed before marrying Joseph IV, who survived.

[615] The trial is an absolute circus.

[616] This is Chicago in the 1920s, and if Tilly is found guilty, she'll be sent to the notorious murderous's row, which was made famous by the musical Chicago.

[617] Oh.

[618] So this is all, like, intertwined with that.

[619] People can't hold it together in the courtroom.

[620] They laugh and jeer, which doesn't seem to bother Tilly at all.

[621] She herself adds to the circus atmosphere by posing for the press and insulting the prosecutors whenever she has the opportunity.

[622] She's a live wire.

[623] It's a true personality, like trait slash disorder.

[624] Yeah.

[625] This kind of person where they're like, no rules apply to me. I don't care what you think or say.

[626] Totally.

[627] And I'm going to murder at will.

[628] and good luck, basically.

[629] Shameless.

[630] Yeah, shameless, exactly.

[631] So surviving Joseph, number four, testifies at the trial, and he says that before meeting Tilly, he'd always been healthy.

[632] In fact, right after they got married, but before he fell ill, he had just passed a rigorous health screening for that life insurance.

[633] And after that, he says, quote, suddenly I found I could no longer smoke.

[634] Tobacco made me sick.

[635] Wow.

[636] Then I noticed the soup and coffee tasted funny.

[637] I kept working despite the increasing pains, Suddenly my legs became numb and then my arms and hands, end quote.

[638] And of course, nausea, stomach pains and numbness in the extremities are all symptoms of arsenic poisoning.

[639] Tilly's neighbors and family members also testify telling about how she had gone around bragging about the deal she had got on the coffin.

[640] At this point in Illinois, it's up to the jury to decide both the verdict and the sentence.

[641] And after 22 hours of deliberation, they find Tilly guilty, but they sentence her to life in prison rather than to death.

[642] It's said that in prison, Tilly enjoys a good reputation among the other inmates.

[643] She's well liked.

[644] Since many of them have come from terribly abusive relationships, Tilly is regarded as a bit of a folk hero, which we don't know the extent of the abuse of her husbands.

[645] It could not have happened at all.

[646] We're not sure.

[647] And also, besides killing her husbands, she also killed other people, including children and animals.

[648] The Chicago police attributed up to 20 poisoning cases to Tilly.

[649] and with the help of her cousin, Nellie, 13 of the poisonings had been successful and killed their intended target.

[650] Why was she killing children?

[651] I don't know.

[652] I think she just really liked poisoning.

[653] Yeah, that's right.

[654] I'm sure it was like they're loud on the stairs or some fucked up.

[655] Yeah, and I don't know what happened to her children, so maybe they were, I don't know.

[656] She was sent to Juliet at correctional centers to serve her sentence where she would die in 1936.

[657] And that is the story of Chicago serial killer, the premonition poisoner, Tilly Clemack.

[658] Man, that was good.

[659] She is like, instead of a hopeless romantic, she's like a hopeless poisoner.

[660] Yeah.

[661] Where it's like, you're going to do this no matter what, aren't you, Tilly?

[662] You're going to do this.

[663] You're going to do this.

[664] You're going to threaten the cops with it.

[665] You're just going to go for it.

[666] Oh, and her cousin never got, her cousin got off.

[667] Oh, I'd be interested to know why.

[668] Was she like, hey, she made me do it.

[669] Look how much she loves poisoning.

[670] I think she was just a little more demure and not as like in your face about doing it.

[671] And so they couldn't really prove it the same way that they could with Tilly.

[672] There's your lesson, ladies.

[673] Keep that mouth shut about poisoning.

[674] Wear your spanks.

[675] And keep your mouth shut.

[676] Wow.

[677] Good one.

[678] That was really good.

[679] Thank you.

[680] I didn't want it to end.

[681] Appreciate it.

[682] All right.

[683] Well, we're going to take a nice.

[684] left turn here.

[685] Good.

[686] Which is kind of funny.

[687] But my story takes place in 1955 in the state capital of Alabama, which is Montgomery.

[688] So the year before, in 1954, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had moved to town and he begins preaching at the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church.

[689] And this following quote is from Stanford University's Martin Luther King Jr. Research and Education Institute.

[690] It's from their website.

[691] It says shortly after accepting this position, he proposed a list of recommendations for the revitalization of the church, which were accepted without changes or revisions.

[692] King insisted that every church member become a registered voter and a member of the NAACP.

[693] He also organized a social and political action committee for the purpose of keeping the congregation intelligently informed concerning the social, political, and economic situation.

[694] end quote.

[695] So clearly, it was a pivotal time in the civil rights movement, and the city of Montgomery was at the civil rights movement's center.

[696] That was a real quick photograph to kind of let you in on where you are, the time, the place, and everything, what's kind of starting to bubble up.

[697] So this story today is about a civil rights hero and an activist you probably haven't heard of.

[698] She's not as famous as the others, but her simple action created a wave of inspiration and courage that now has its own place in American history.

[699] This is the story of Claudette Colvin.

[700] Awesome.

[701] So the sources used today are a book called Claudette Colvin, twice toward justice by Philip Hose, an episode of the podcast History This Week, and called Claudette Colvin doesn't give up her seat, and an episode of the Radio Diaries podcast called Claudeau Colvin making trouble then and now.

[702] So this starts on a Wednesday afternoon in early March at Booker T. Washington High School, which is a segregated public school for black children, the end of the day bill has just rung and a straight -day student named Claudette Colvin and her friends pushed through the school's front doors and head out towards downtown Montgomery.

[703] Clodette will later tell her biographer of Philip Hose that, quote, I loved going downtown.

[704] Montgomery had stores like J .G. Newberries and Cress's 5 and 10, which opened on to Monroe Street, the main street for black people.

[705] Outback of Cresses, there was a hot dog stand.

[706] A lady who worked there and knew my dad would stack up soda crates so I could sit down while I ate hot dogs and drank my soda.

[707] End quote.

[708] Which is just such a like, as I was starting this and looking at Alamaran's research, I was like, man, when you are like 13, 14, 15, whatever, before you can drive, but you're older, you're no longer being kind of driven around to, like, activities or whatever.

[709] Like me and my friend Holly Gardner from the tampon suitcase story, we used to just walk through downtown Petaluma and you'd kind of like shop, but you didn't really have any money.

[710] Yeah.

[711] And you'd kind of like look at stuff and you'd talk about stuff.

[712] It's such a like kind of across the board American tradition of like, junior high, you know, early high school students kind of just like hanging out in their own town.

[713] Totally.

[714] Totally.

[715] Also like that hot dogs have been brought up yet once again.

[716] But downtown Montgomery is also a source of pain for Claudette.

[717] It is filled with constant reminders that she is living in the Gem Crow South.

[718] White operated stores will take her money, but they won't let her try anything on.

[719] She's not allowed in certain parks.

[720] Even her optometrist whose office is downtown won't let Claudette or any other black person sit in the waiting room chairs because it might offend his white patients.

[721] Claudette says, quote, there were so many places you couldn't go and so many things you couldn't do if you were black.

[722] So basically, in that part of the thing, I was just like, oh, right.

[723] So my experience is actually nothing like this experience of going downtown because, and this is the kind of thing where it's like when people always talk about critical race theory.

[724] or all these different things.

[725] It's like, it's just so white people understand they don't get it.

[726] You can't dismiss it if you don't get it.

[727] Right.

[728] You actually have to hear what's parallel and then hear the difference and how painful and destructive that difference is to then have the further conversation.

[729] Right.

[730] It's like our experiences couldn't have been further apart.

[731] In actuality, even though it sounds like it, it's, it's, we'll never understand completely.

[732] That constant being unwelcome, the constant.

[733] suspicion or derision that kids had to feel, that all black people had to feel, constantly being reminded that they don't belong and they're different and they're separate in that era.

[734] So this segregation also extends to Montgomery's bus system, even though all passengers pay the same fare.

[735] And despite the fact that black people make up the majority of writers, the bus's first 10 seats are reserved for white people.

[736] Black people are expected, listen to this.

[737] I didn't even, I never thought about this before.

[738] They're expected to board the bus up front, pay their fare, then step back off the bus, walk down to the back doors, and reenter through the back doors and sit in the last rows.

[739] As the bus drivers have full authority to do whatever they need to ensure that this segregation law is followed.

[740] Some bus drivers even carry guns on the job.

[741] Jesus.

[742] So Claudette and our friends, get on the bus and they take their seat in the first available row designated for black people.

[743] So it's basically in the back, but as far up front as possible.

[744] Claudette takes a window seat, but as the driver continues along the route and makes more stops, the bus starts to fill up.

[745] Before long, Claudette and her friends notice a young white woman hovering in the aisle beside them.

[746] She's staring at them.

[747] She clearly wants their seats.

[748] And this is how bus segregation actually worked.

[749] in Montgomery, even if a black person is sitting in the designated black section, when a white person wants their seat, then every black passenger in that row, including the ones across the aisle from that passenger, had to move.

[750] Oh my God.

[751] So like the whole row had to be vacated.

[752] Holy shit.

[753] It's like now it's a white row.

[754] Now we're here.

[755] I didn't know that.

[756] Yeah.

[757] I didn't know that either.

[758] So the bus driver orders the girls to find new seats.

[759] Claudette's friends head toward the back of the bus, but Claudette doesn't move.

[760] She would later say, quote, he wanted me to give up my seat for a white person, and I would have done it for an elderly person, but this was a young white woman.

[761] So it's no coincidence that Claudette is feeling this resistance and is filled with this kind of frustration and irritation about this, because her teacher had been giving lessons on heroic black women from U .S. history, and Claudette had been listening and learning.

[762] She would go on to say, quote, it felt as though Harriet Tubman's hands were pushing me down on one shoulder, and Sojourner Truth's hands were pushing me down on the other shoulder.

[763] I felt inspired by these women because my teacher taught us about them in so much detail.

[764] I wasn't frightened, but disappointed and angry, because I knew I was sitting in the right seat.

[765] Wow.

[766] Yeah.

[767] So that's the other reason they don't want to teach critical race theory, is because then people understand, oh, people have been in this position before, here's what they did, here's what you can do, here's how you affect change.

[768] Totally.

[769] Or just here's how you can feel brave because who's braver than Harriet Tubman?

[770] Totally.

[771] I love Harriet Tubman.

[772] Okay.

[773] But Clodette's not the only one that's angry.

[774] As she keeps her seat, the white passengers around her begin to confront and try to intimidate her telling her to get up.

[775] She stands firm, even though she's 15 years old.

[776] Wow.

[777] So the bus driver stops at an intersection where a cop car is waiting, and two white officers get on the bus, and the driver points in Claudette's direction.

[778] Claudette remembers the bus driver saying, quote, I've had trouble with that thing before.

[779] He called me a thing.

[780] End quote.

[781] So the officer's head in Claudette's direction and ask if she's going to move.

[782] And she tells them, no, she's not.

[783] moving and it's her constitutional right to sit there.

[784] On that, she says, quote, I was more defiant and then they knocked my books out of my lap and one of them grabbed my arm.

[785] I don't know how I got off that bus, but the other students said they manhandled me off and put me in the squad car.

[786] Then they asked me to stick my arms out the window and that's when they handcuffed me. Oh my God.

[787] So the ride to the police station is a harrowing one for Claudette.

[788] She'll later say, quote, I feared the policemen might hit me with their clubs.

[789] And they were trying to guess my bra size and teasing me about my breasts.

[790] I could have been raped.

[791] Oh, my fucking God.

[792] That idea of like, now they're going to, quote, unquote, take care of this person who's making trouble.

[793] Right.

[794] Therefore, what happens to that person when they're in police custody is somehow justified or, like, no one will care about it.

[795] is the fear and panic that I'm sure many black people have when they're in custody, obviously, especially these days.

[796] So Claudette assumes she's going to be taken to the juvenile facility, but instead, these officers take her to the local jail and book her alongside adults.

[797] She's put into a cell.

[798] She's denied a phone call.

[799] Luckily, her friends and schoolmates on the bus that afternoon saw everything, and they went and told her mother.

[800] so later that night, Claudette's mother and the family pastor, Reverend H .H. Johnson, arrive at the jail to bail her out.

[801] Claudette remembers, quote, on the ride home from jail, Reverend Johnson said something to me I'll never forget.

[802] He was an adult who everyone respected, and his opinion meant a lot to me. Claudette, he said, I'm so proud of you.

[803] Everyone prays for freedom.

[804] We've all been praying and praying.

[805] But you're different.

[806] You want your answer the next morning.

[807] And I think you just brought the revolution to Montgomery.

[808] Holy shit.

[809] End quote.

[810] 15.

[811] So brave.

[812] A teen girl.

[813] A teen girl that just in the moment is like, you know what?

[814] No fucking way.

[815] I love it.

[816] Okay.

[817] Reverend Johnson is right on the money.

[818] But at the moment, Claudette is more concerned about the three criminal charges that she was just booked for.

[819] Therefore, one, violating segregation law.

[820] two, disturbing the peace, and three, assaulting a police officer.

[821] So Claudette adamantly denies the charge of assaulting a police officer.

[822] She claims that, quote, she went limp as a baby.

[823] I was too smart to fight back.

[824] Still, the police put in their report that she had kicked and scratched them.

[825] It's their word against hers.

[826] And so, of course, the charges stick.

[827] So, of course, Claudette's not the first black person that ever refused to give up their seat to a white writer on public transportation in Montgomery.

[828] But the timing of Claudette's actions is very important.

[829] And that's because right at the same time as Claudette decided to do that, black organizers and activists are in the middle of planning a wide -scale protest of the city's bus segregation law.

[830] So the news of Claudette's arrest spreads around quickly and it's written up in the newspapers, which, of course, terrifies Claudette.

[831] because she and her family are so worried about retaliation from the KKK.

[832] So all these actions had such, like they were so high stakes.

[833] But to the black organizers in Montgomery like Joanne Robinson and legendary civil rights leader E .D. Dixon, this is a big moment because now they can take this action that Claudette took when she refused to stand up and kickstart a public campaign to take down bus segregation.

[834] And this is just to make sure before Rosa Parks, right?

[835] It is, and that is going to come up.

[836] Interesting.

[837] That's how Claudette Colvin, when people first started talking about her recently, it was, did you know that there was a Rosa Parks before there was a Rosa Parks?

[838] Yes, I remember that conversation.

[839] But Rosa Parks is actually in this story.

[840] Okay, cool.

[841] So it's kind of interesting how it all connects.

[842] So E .D. Nixon suggests Claudette start going to youth group meetings that are hosted by the Montgomery NAACP.

[843] At the time that organization is actively trying to get more young.

[844] black people involved.

[845] And they believe that Claudette being featured in the press could help basically kind of boost those efforts.

[846] So Claudette shows up at a meeting.

[847] She's greeted by the youth group leader, a woman by the name of Rosa Parks.

[848] Hey.

[849] Wow.

[850] So at the time, Rosa Parks is in her early 40s.

[851] She works as a seamstress at a local department store.

[852] And she's also a well -established member of the Montgomery and AACP.

[853] And when the two women first meet, Rosa reportedly tells Claudette, quote, you're Claudette Colvin?

[854] Oh my God, I was looking for some big old burly overgrown teenager who sassed white people out.

[855] But no, they pulled a little girl off the bus.

[856] Oh, that gave me chills.

[857] So Claudette and Rosa wind up forming an immediate bond, and Rosa will end up mentoring Claudette during this overwhelming moment in her life.

[858] In addition to those NACP youth group meetings, where Rosa regularly champions Claudette's heroic protest on the bus, Claudette also spends time with Rosa at the park's home.

[859] Claudette stops by for coffee and snacks, models wedding dresses as Rosa alters them for clients.

[860] And as Claudette will put it, they sometimes, quote, would stay up all night gabbing.

[861] So meanwhile, the fact that Claudette is charged with, among other things, violating segregation.

[862] laws presents a huge legal opportunity for civil rights activists.

[863] E .D. Nixon also connects Claudette with a young black activist and lawyer named Fred Gray, who takes on Claudette as a client with a specific goal in mind.

[864] He wants to use her case to argue that the city of Montgomery and Alabama's state segregation laws are blatantly unconstitutional.

[865] To no one's surprise, Claudette is convicted on all three charges against her and just as planned, Fred Gray files an appeal.

[866] Claudette's life soon becomes very complicated, very fast.

[867] The media coverage paints her as a rude, belligerent teenager.

[868] And according to her biographer Philip Hose, quote, she found that attitudes at Booker T. Washington, which was her school, had hardened against her.

[869] It was easier to see the bus girl as a troublemaker than as a pioneer.

[870] More and more students mocked her.

[871] now, end quote.

[872] And actually one of her former classmates would later go on to tell her biographer that, quote, Claudette was a wonderful person with a mind that was mature beyond her years.

[873] One day our teacher told us to write down on a piece of paper what we wanted to be when we grew up and pass it to the front.

[874] Clodette wrote, President of the U .S. Damn, staunch women.

[875] Stanch.

[876] I think she meant it.

[877] We should have been rallying around her and being proud of what she had done, but instead, we ridiculed her.

[878] End quote.

[879] So in early May of 1955, a judge dismisses two of the three charges against Claudette, the charge of violating the segregation law, and the charge of disturbing the peace, but she remains charged with assaulting a police officer.

[880] And this seems to be a very calculated decision by the white judge.

[881] The fact that Claudette's bogus assault charge is now affirmed, and is now on her criminal record will have serious implications on her future.

[882] On top of that, the judge's actions will also throw a wrench into Fred Gray's plan to legally undermine segregation laws.

[883] With the segregation -related charges now dropped, there's no basis for an appeal that could potentially result in a court declaring these laws unconstitutional.

[884] So he's basically just taken that whole plan out at the knees.

[885] Now the path forward is a little less clear for Montgomery organizers who wanted to launch an entire protest movement off of Claudette's case.

[886] Instead, they move forward with a plan, but Claudette is no longer the figurehead of the protest.

[887] Instead, it will be Rosa Parks.

[888] At first, Claudette is upset by this, and she will go on to say, quote, There was a time when I thought I would be the centerpiece of the bus case.

[889] I had enough self -confidence to keep it going.

[890] It really, really hurt.

[891] But on the other hand, having been with Rosa at the NACP meetings, I thought, well, maybe she is the right person.

[892] She's strong and adults won't listen to me anyway.

[893] Wow.

[894] That's a difficult decision to think, I'm sure.

[895] Yeah.

[896] And she's already actually paid the price in a lot of ways.

[897] So it's like it will have all been worth it if now I get to kind of stand up.

[898] And, you know, obviously she's an ambitious young woman and she has kind of big dreams for herself.

[899] So it's a very tough and confusing time in Clodette's life.

[900] And she's actively searching for some peace, which can't blame her.

[901] One day she meets a much older man while watching a baseball game in a public park.

[902] Clodette will later say, quote, he kept telling me to ignore what people were saying about me and I really needed to hear that.

[903] He was easy to talk to.

[904] He was so much older than me and he had so much more experience.

[905] I knew I was getting into a situation I couldn't handle, but it was hard to stop, end quote.

[906] So basically, this guy knows who she is.

[907] He knows that she's in this kind of vulnerable yet public position and that she must be stressed and she must be scared.

[908] And he's an old creep that's basically like, oh, I'm going to make her feel better.

[909] He prayed upon her.

[910] He fully prayed upon her.

[911] So Claudette sleeps with this man once and gets pregnant.

[912] And then he disappears from her life altogether.

[913] It turns out that in addition to praying on a vulnerable 15 -year -old girl, the man is married.

[914] So when Claudette's high school finds out about this pregnancy, she basically is expelled.

[915] Yeah.

[916] Jesus.

[917] So on December 1, 1955, nine months after Claudette Colvin's arrest, and after months of careful planning by black organizers, Rosa Parks boards a Montgomery bus, and just as Claudette had done before.

[918] her refuses to give up her seat to a white passenger.

[919] The bus driver then calls the police, but from here, things play out differently than they did with Claudette.

[920] The responding officers don't manhandle Rosa the way they had done with teenage Claudette, who it's worth noting had darker skin than Rosa Parks.

[921] And on top of that, Rosa is charged with disorderly conduct and breaking segregation law, not assault.

[922] She's never jailed.

[923] And immediately, she's a allowed to make a phone call.

[924] So the public sympathy is more on her side than it was for Claudette.

[925] Yes, because of course, when black people take an action like that, they have to do it perfectly.

[926] They cannot leave any room for criticism, speculation, anything, right?

[927] And this is not to downplay Rosa Parks' activism.

[928] Of course.

[929] Clearly, she was in on the plan from the beginning.

[930] And so this is basically going, okay, well, if this has been compromised in certain ways here, we're going to try it again, and we're going to do it right this time.

[931] So now organizers swing into action.

[932] Joanne Robinson and a team of activists flood Montgomery with leaflets that urge every black person in Montgomery to, quote, stay off the buses in protest of the arrest and trial of Rosa Parks.

[933] So just a few days later on December 5th, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. delivers his first major public speech at the Holt Street Baptist Church.

[934] Of course, he's given public speeches before, but this is his first huge speech outside of a religious context.

[935] And speaking to a crowd of around a thousand people inside that church with thousands more listening through speakers outside, Dr. King addresses the arrest of Rosa Parks, and he declares the quote, we are determined here in Montgomery to work and fight until justice runs down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.

[936] End quote.

[937] And of course, the crowd goes wild.

[938] And with those words, the official start of the historic Montgomery bus boycott begins.

[939] It's a moment of unity and celebration, but Claudette Colvin is not in the building.

[940] She says that she was, quote, in a different mind.

[941] I was depressed, I was pregnant, I had been expelled from school, end quote.

[942] Yeah.

[943] Her mother and sister are, there in the crowd at the Holt Street Baptist Church, but Claudette decided to stay home that day.

[944] And in this moment, she just isn't able to see how important she has been and is to this historic campaign.

[945] But amazingly, Claudette hasn't made her biggest contribution to the anti -segregation movement yet.

[946] A few months after the bus boycott begins, the phone rings at her house and it's Fred Gray.

[947] He asks Claudette, who is now seven months pregnant, if she wants to be a plaintiff in the lawsuit that he plans on filing in federal court that will target Montgomery and Alabama state segregation laws as unconstitutional.

[948] So now she's had some time to like basically process what she went through and process her life and everything.

[949] And so now she agrees and she becomes one of the five black female plaintiffs.

[950] in the suit that's now known as Browder versus Gale.

[951] So just for your information, Browder is the surname of one of the plaintiffs, the first one alphabetically, and Gale is the last name of the then mayor of Montgomery.

[952] W .A. Gale was his name.

[953] Got it.

[954] So that's just in case anyone ever quizzes you on what exactly Browder versus Gail is referring to.

[955] So Claudette says, quote, I was afraid.

[956] The way life was in the South, how could you not be afraid?

[957] you never knew who was KKK or who would target you end quote but then she adds quote I was not a person who lived in fear it felt that if they really needed someone I was the right person it was a chance for me to speak out I was still angry I wanted white people to know that I wasn't satisfied with segregation and black people too end quote I just fucking love this girl it's a teenage girl it is hard enough to be a teenage girl I was I'm literally picturing myself as at that age, and I don't know where she got all this courage from.

[958] It's incredible.

[959] Seriously.

[960] Seriously.

[961] So Claudette gives birth to her son Raymond in late March of 1956, and then just six weeks later, she arrives at the federal courthouse ready to testify.

[962] Fred Gray, who considers Claudette his star witness, saves her testimony for last.

[963] She takes the stand, and the now 16 -year -old Claudette recounts how she was forcibly removed from her.

[964] from the bus, handcuffed, thrown into a cop car, and locked in a jail cell.

[965] According to Hose, quote, at this point, a spectator in the courtroom's balcony let out a wail and began sobbing loudly.

[966] Oh my God.

[967] That was me. That was time traveling me in the past.

[968] Claudette's testimony is an emotional slam dunk.

[969] In the end, the three judge panel hearing this case rules that the segregation laws at hand are in fact unconstitutional, because they violate the 14th Amendment, which guarantees all U .S. citizens equal protection under state and federal laws.

[970] Both the city and state immediately appeal the decision, and later that year, Browder v. Gale goes all the way to the U .S. Supreme Court.

[971] There, the justices agree with the lower court's ruling, and with that the city of Montgomery and state of Alabama's laws mandating segregated buses are declared unconstitutional.

[972] The Montgomery bus boycott then comes to a victorious close.

[973] Shit, that's amazing.

[974] Claudette has just played an enormous role in fighting against segregation.

[975] Fred Gray even declares that, quote, Claudette Colvin had more courage, in my opinion, than any of the other persons involved in the movement, end quote.

[976] That's huge.

[977] That's big.

[978] 15 -year -old.

[979] And he'll later say, quote, I represented Claudette Colvin and also Rosa Parks and Dr. Martin Luther King, and what you have to realize is there are literally hundreds, and probably thousands of individuals like Claudette Colvin and many others, you never see their names, you never see their faces, but they laid the foundation so that we could honor the Dr. Kings and the Rosa Parkses.

[980] Amazing.

[981] End quote.

[982] So a year after the Supreme Court's decision, Claudette completes her GED, and over the next several years, she lives in Alabama, in Texas, and in New York City.

[983] As her family grows, she finds work in nursing.

[984] But for years, Claudette does not talk much about her pivotal role in U .S. history.

[985] But then in the early 2000s, I think this personal opinion, with the advent of the internet, people start discovering and talking about Claudette's incredible story of bravery and determination.

[986] She's invited to ceremonies that celebrate the Montgomery bus boycott.

[987] She's interviewed by journalists, and she becomes the subject of a biography by Philip Hose.

[988] Meanwhile, she's still carrying the assault charge from when she was 15 years old.

[989] Holy shit.

[990] In the early 2020s, when she is in her 80s, she decides it's time to finally change that.

[991] So Claudette shows up to a juvenile court in Montgomery, Alabama.

[992] where she is joined by 90 -year -old Fred Gray.

[993] Oh my God, he's still alive.

[994] He's still alive.

[995] He's still fighting.

[996] And she makes an appeal to have the charge expunged.

[997] In December of 2021, the judge, a black man named Calvin Williams, signs the order that clears Claudette's name.

[998] He specifically notes that her protest on the bus, quote, since been recognized as a courageous act on her behalf and on behalf of a community of affected people, end quote.

[999] Today, Clodette Colvin seems much more self -assured when it comes to her place in civil rights era history.

[1000] In 2005, she told the Chicago Tribune, quote, let the people know Rosa Parks was the right person for the boycott, but also let them know that the attorneys took four other women to the Supreme Court to challenge the law that led to the end of segregation, end quote.

[1001] And that's the story of Claudette, Colvin, the heroic 15 -year -old whose singular act of courage changed our laws and our country for the better.

[1002] Oh, that was so good.

[1003] I'm so glad you did that one.

[1004] Oh, my God.

[1005] Come on.

[1006] This episode should be called staunch women.

[1007] I mean, the good and the bad.

[1008] A good example and a bad example.

[1009] Yeah, exactly.

[1010] There's choices that we all make in this life and you can make certain choices where you poison everyone with your horrible stew.

[1011] Or you can keep your seat and tell people in a polite way to fuck off.

[1012] Yeah, and then change history, NBD.

[1013] Oh, my God.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] That was amazing.

[1016] Great job.

[1017] Thank you.

[1018] Before we end, I want to really briefly address the conflict in Israel and Palestine going on right now.

[1019] I am clearly not an expert.

[1020] I am a Jewish person living in the U .S. And I don't have a connection to Israel beyond being Jewish.

[1021] But it's just something I feel like I should, I guess, express my opinion about it briefly, personally.

[1022] You know, obviously Hamas is a terrible terrorist organization.

[1023] And Israel has every right to defend themselves against that.

[1024] However, what's happening right now in Gaza is not that.

[1025] it is innocent people, innocent Palestinian people being murdered.

[1026] And so obviously I am for a ceasefire and just want to make clear that I don't support the Israeli government.

[1027] And I do not support and condone what's going on in Gaza, you know, also free the hostages.

[1028] But I, you know, it's just so complex and so complicated.

[1029] Those are my basic thoughts and I just wanted to give those out there because, you know, I will also say that this is the most scared I've been as a Jewish person in the United States ever.

[1030] It's really scary right now.

[1031] And that's kind of part of the reason I've been hesitant or, you know, afraid to say something.

[1032] It's a really scary time.

[1033] Yeah.

[1034] I think in this day and age, we're all so scared like I really heard you when you just said, as a Jewish person, I've never been this scared.

[1035] And that's.

[1036] And that.

[1037] that's the reality here in America because the excuse people use to then suddenly become antisemitic.

[1038] Totally.

[1039] I think everybody has to be really careful about what they're consuming, what they're believing, check your sources, all those things.

[1040] And that ultimately the way people are responding to this, it's like human beings going, we're done with treating each other like this.

[1041] We're done with this kind of killing civilians in any number.

[1042] Okay, so that said, we are going to donate $10 ,000 to the World Central Kitchen.

[1043] That's WCK .org.

[1044] They go to the front lines and provide meals in response to humanitarian, climate, and community crises.

[1045] And it's a really great organization, so we're happy to donate there.

[1046] I think that's a beautiful gesture.

[1047] in the face of basically abject horror and fear and that horrible feeling that everything is just escalating out of everyone's control.

[1048] You can do something in moments like that.

[1049] And it is basically checking your neighbor, talking to your friends, making sure that you're not ingesting too much, making sure you're not turning away, and making sure you're not obsessively staying on it and harming yourself.

[1050] Well, thank you guys.

[1051] for listening and being here with us.

[1052] We really appreciate you.

[1053] And take good care of yourself.

[1054] And especially these days, don't be afraid to call in sick.

[1055] Take a mental health day or week.

[1056] Take a series of mental health days.

[1057] Take a bath.

[1058] I almost took a bath the other night.

[1059] Then I was like, I should tell George I'm about to take a bath.

[1060] Yes, do it.

[1061] Team bath.

[1062] As Michelle McNamara said, it's chaos because.

[1063] Yep, and stay sexy.

[1064] And don't get murdered.

[1065] Goodbye.

[1066] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1067] This has been an exactly right production.

[1068] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1069] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[1070] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[1071] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachie.

[1072] Our researchers are Marin McClashin and Ali Elkin.

[1073] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1074] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1075] Goodbye.

[1076] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[1077] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[1078] Visit Exactly RightStore .com to purchase My Favorite Murder merch.