407 - Skippers’ Paradise

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] I looked away at the beginning of that.

[2] You did.

[3] We should keep going.

[4] Okay, that's go.

[5] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[6] That's Georgia Hardstar.

[7] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[8] We just keep getting better at this.

[9] Oh, truly pros.

[10] Pros.

[11] I mean.

[12] How have we not won a Webby?

[13] Oh, Georgia, you didn't hear?

[14] We did.

[15] Oh, so it's the holiday season.

[16] So every episode this month is going to be basically our vacation episode.

[17] So they're going to be shorter, Each of us are going to tell one story and episode.

[18] We're going to be short and sweet in the beginning, but it's all going to be new content.

[19] So we have something to give you, and we can still go and celebrate the holidays.

[20] Please definitely let us know how you feel about every angle of this concept.

[21] We're here for you.

[22] We have staffs of people manning the phones all through Christmas, all through the holidays.

[23] But, you know, here's the thing.

[24] It's like, we don't want to go into reruns.

[25] No. We also don't want to work 12 -hour days through December.

[26] That's right.

[27] You get it.

[28] Yeah.

[29] So here we go with a solution.

[30] Stop being so defensive about it, Georgia.

[31] Problem, solution.

[32] Boom.

[33] Right?

[34] So as we always do, every week of December, we're going to be giving to a new charity.

[35] That's a tradition we started around here that is very satisfying to make some donations, make everybody get into the holiday spirit.

[36] So this week, our first week, we're kicking off our holiday donation with Doctors Without Borders.

[37] Sure, you've heard of them.

[38] Doctors Without Borders is on the ground in over 70 countries providing urgently needed humanitarian aid in moments of crisis and conflict.

[39] You probably know this, but they are in Gaza as of this recording on the ground helping Palestinian civilians.

[40] So donating to them right now, if you have anything to spare is a powerful way to take some action and help out.

[41] So we will be giving $10 ,000 to Doctors Without Borders.

[42] Go onto their website, Doctors Without Borders .org, to get more information.

[43] Okay, so should we get right into the story then?

[44] Let's get right into the story.

[45] This is, sorry, really quick, the subtitle of this episode and these following episodes are Skippers Paradise.

[46] Right?

[47] That's so true.

[48] Yeah.

[49] I don't have a show to recommend for you.

[50] I don't have a book.

[51] I don't have an anecdote about my cats.

[52] Nothing.

[53] I'm not going to tell you how to live, although it's going to be really hard not to.

[54] We're just getting right into it.

[55] Here you go.

[56] Well, we can fold that advice into this story because this one is a doozy.

[57] I figured since we're doing singles, I might as well do a heavy hitter.

[58] And we haven't covered this one for many reasons, but I'm going to do it today.

[59] Today's story is possibly the most infamous case of the last 20 years.

[60] and the mother at the center of it was once the most hated woman in America.

[61] Karen, it's the story of the death of Kaylee Anthony and the investigation of her mother, Casey Anthony.

[62] Horrifying.

[63] Yeah.

[64] You're going to be shocked to hear this.

[65] I have opinions and theories.

[66] You probably won't be shocked to hear this.

[67] I avoided this case from day one, like the plague.

[68] I was like, I don't want to know any of this.

[69] This was one of those ones where it's, it really felt to me like this bridge too far of how we were tracking an attractive white woman and it became about her in the weirdest way.

[70] And it just all seemed so salacious.

[71] Yes.

[72] I didn't track it either.

[73] It was a time when there wasn't true crime podcasts.

[74] There was Nancy Grace and all of these like 24 -hour crime TVs.

[75] And it was very gross and very obsessive.

[76] and very much the, you know, missing white woman syndrome.

[77] Yeah.

[78] And it was also heart -wrenching because the photos of this little girl, you know, they were just flashing constantly and they were on every magazine cover.

[79] It was just completely bananas.

[80] Right.

[81] And so I avoided it until the verdict and then I was so confused that I had to look into it.

[82] So since then, I've done some deep dives, late night Reddit, kind of a thing, watched all the documentaries and have opinions about.

[83] it.

[84] So I'm going to tell you the story.

[85] I'll tell you some theories, and then I'll tell you what my theory is, and you can tell me what your opinion is.

[86] Okay.

[87] Cool.

[88] Yeah.

[89] The main source for today's story is the docu series from Investigation Discovery, Casey Anthony, an American murder mystery.

[90] And I also use this WordPress blog called State v. Casey that had a ton of information, including a lot of the evidence.

[91] And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

[92] So it's July 13th.

[93] We're starting there a little ahead of time, 2008.

[94] Cindy and George Anthony receive a letter from an impound lot.

[95] I guess they didn't call back then.

[96] They sent letters.

[97] Cindy's a nurse and George is a retired police officer who now works as a security guard.

[98] They live in Orlando, Florida.

[99] The letter says that a car registered to them, a white Pontiac Sunfire, had been towed to the lot after it had been abandoned out of gas.

[100] at a busy Orlando intersection.

[101] Though the car belongs to George and Cindy, Anthony, it's primarily driven by their 22 -year -old daughter, Casey.

[102] I didn't realize she was that young.

[103] Yeah, very young.

[104] Casey lives with her parents, along with her almost three -year -old daughter, Kaylee.

[105] So she had the daughter when she was like 20.

[106] Or at least they did live there until about a month prior.

[107] See, on June 16th, Casey abruptly left with Kaylee, and by some accounts after an argument with Cindy, Casey's mom and Kaylee's grandmother.

[108] And this was the last time anyone had seen Kaylee.

[109] So it is assumed probably correctly that this is the day she died.

[110] Okay.

[111] Regardless of whether or not Cindy and Casey argued on June 16th, over the course of the following month, Cindy and George kept in touch with their daughter via phone calls.

[112] Casey works as an event planner at Universal Studios, at least that's what she tells her family.

[113] And she tells her parents that she's taken Kaylee with her on a work trip to Tampa.

[114] She says she's also brought Kaylee's nanny, whose name is Zanida Fernandez Gonzalez, who she calls Zanny the nanny.

[115] While Casey is away on this work trip, she and Cindy talk on the phone frequently.

[116] She's, you know, she's young, and she's still really attached to her parents and, you know, needs them for a lot of things.

[117] And when Cindy asked to speak to Kaylee, her granddaughter, she loves very much, there's always some sort of reason why Kaylee can't come to the phone.

[118] Casey says she's either out with Zanny or she's sleeping, that sort of thing.

[119] So on June 24th, about 10 days after Casey has gone to Tampa, George realizes some gas cans are missing from his shed.

[120] They had kept gas cans in there for whatever reason.

[121] And the lock on the shed had been broken off.

[122] And so he initially calls the sheriff and reports that they've been stolen.

[123] But what actually happened was the day before Casey and her boyfriend, who's a college student named Tony Lazaro had broken into the shed to get the gas cans that had gas in them to fill up Casey's car because she has no money.

[124] She doesn't actually have a job.

[125] That's just a lie to her parents.

[126] Oh, okay.

[127] There's so many things about this that I'm like, do I tell you right now what the truth is and what actually happened or do I just tell you the story?

[128] Right.

[129] Like Zanny the Nanny, a lot of people suspect that that means it was actually Xanax that she'd give her daughter whenever she wanted to go out partying.

[130] Oh, that's disgusting.

[131] Yeah.

[132] Like the person didn't exist.

[133] Yeah.

[134] Well, yes.

[135] Like the parents thought there was a person, but that was her.

[136] Yes.

[137] Wow.

[138] That's gross.

[139] Okay.

[140] So the next day after the gas goes missing, Casey comes back to the house.

[141] It seems like she would wait until she knew her parents were at work and come back.

[142] That was her deal, which I did in high school, you know, going to school, bye.

[143] And then an hour later, and my mom had left her work had come home.

[144] Right.

[145] Right.

[146] So it seemed like she did that.

[147] And when she did that the next day, her dad, he surprised her because he was home.

[148] And she's just a really good liar.

[149] She made up some bullshit and they get into a bit of an argument.

[150] And then she eventually tells him she took the gas cans.

[151] They're in her trunk.

[152] He tries to get them out of the trunk and she won't let him near the trunk.

[153] She's really cagey and weird about it.

[154] She finally gives him the gas cans and says, quote, here's your fucking gas cans.

[155] So Casey drives off and Cindy calls her later to be like, why were you in town?

[156] You told me you were out of town.

[157] And then she said she just came back to grab a few things and that Kaylee had stayed in Tampa with Zanny, the nanny.

[158] And over the next couple of weeks, Casey tells her mother that she and Kaylee are still in Tampa.

[159] Like, she just kind of lies to them about where she is to keep her mother away from seeing her granddaughter.

[160] Right.

[161] But her brother Lee, who's 25, he is like getting an inkling that she's actually in town because he's able to see her social media, which her parents weren't on.

[162] And she's posting photos from like clubs and stuff around town.

[163] so he kind of knows she's in town.

[164] And then it's confirmed that she's in town because, like the beginning on July 13th, that letter from the impound lot comes in.

[165] So George goes to the impound lot to pick up the car on July 15th.

[166] And when he gets there, he says he can smell something before he even opens the car door.

[167] He would later say, quote, that particular smell, whenever you smell it, it's something that you never forget.

[168] It's a very distinct odor, end quote.

[169] And remember, he's a former police officer.

[170] Right.

[171] And he says the car smells like a dead body, and the attendant in the tow yard agrees.

[172] He had smelled a dead body from his job before in a car.

[173] Right.

[174] Just so disturbing.

[175] Before he opens the trunk, he says a silent prayer that he won't find the body of either his daughter or granddaughter in there.

[176] Like, that's how sure he is that the smell is a dead body.

[177] When he does open it, he finds a garbage bag.

[178] And the garbage bag has some pizza boxes in it with leftover pizza.

[179] The pizza's rotting, and there's maggots on it, and he's like, few, that must be the smell.

[180] They tossed the bag.

[181] But it's still weird, and throughout this whole thing, her father is suspected of anything from killing Kaylee to simply covering for Casey and lying.

[182] I mean, it's just, that to me is the biggest unknown part of this.

[183] Okay.

[184] So I want to hear what you think.

[185] Okay.

[186] So he retrieves the car, brings it home, he must not think that it smells like a dead body anymore because he leaves to go to work, which I think that if you truly thought there was the smell of decomposition in your daughter's trunk, and like they weren't putting it together, you know, that they hadn't seen their granddaughter.

[187] Or they were in denial like if that was the possibility and then he finds, you know, rotting food, then it's like, oh, Hugh, I don't have to think about this anymore.

[188] I think most people wouldn't jump to that conclusion of their family member, right?

[189] Yeah.

[190] And so much of the story and people's theories on it is speculation of how you wouldn't, wouldn't act in a certain way, including with Casey, which I totally understand.

[191] Then Cindy's like, fuck this shit.

[192] She tracks her daughter down at her boyfriend, Tony's house.

[193] She, like, drags her home and it's like, where the fuck is my granddaughter?

[194] Like, what is going on?

[195] She calls 911 to report Casey for stealing the car that had been impounded.

[196] She, like, basically wants the cops to come and, like, figure this out because Casey is still saying that she's with the nanny.

[197] She's with the nanny.

[198] Everything's fine.

[199] And Cindy's, like, had enough.

[200] She wants to see her granddaughter in person because she knows something's off, deep in her heart.

[201] A bit later, after the police don't show up, Cindy calls again.

[202] This time she says she needs to, quote, report a possible missing child.

[203] She says that she hasn't seen her granddaughter for a month.

[204] On this call, Cindy can be heard saying to Casey that she's going to petition.

[205] for custody of Kaylee, like something is wrong and she knows it.

[206] But they still don't show up.

[207] The police still don't show up.

[208] So Cindy calls again.

[209] And this time, and of course I've listened to all these 911 calls, it's so evident that something happened between that second and third 911 call.

[210] And it's true.

[211] And her brother does talk about it in the trial later that she did admit to her brother that she hadn't seen her daughter in 31 days.

[212] And then starts the story about how Zanny the nanny took her and Cindy gets, you know, wind of this and freaks out.

[213] And the 911 call is like panicked.

[214] My granddaughter is gone.

[215] No one's seen her in 31 days.

[216] And finally the cops take it seriously.

[217] And then she also says on this call that her daughter has been driving this car and she says, quote, it smells like there's a dead body in the car.

[218] End quote.

[219] So like shit, the fucking jig is up.

[220] So the police arrived at the Anthony house and they walk into a chaotic scene.

[221] Cindy tells police it's been 31 days since anyone has seen Kaylee at all.

[222] Casey tells police that she had dropped Kaylee off with Zanny a month earlier.

[223] And since then, Zanny had refused to give Kaylee back.

[224] And Casey says she was going to find her on her own.

[225] She didn't want to involve the police because she was worried that Zanny might hurt her somehow.

[226] That was her excuse.

[227] And a police corporal name Yuri Malish is assigned to the case.

[228] So Casey tells Corporal Mellish that on June 16th, 2009, the day that Kaylee went missing, she had dropped her off at Zanny's apartment and then gone to her job at Universal Studios.

[229] And she says at the end of the workday, she returned to get her daughter and couldn't find Zanny or Kaylee.

[230] She says she drove around trying to find them, but wasn't unable to.

[231] And she said she wanted to try to solve her daughter's apparent kidnapping on her own, which is just like absurd.

[232] Yeah, absolutely.

[233] Well, and also to include your fake job in the kind of like what you're doing is a real setup for yourself for later on when all those yarns get pulled and that sweater falls apart and it's like it's all a lie basically well this is why people are pretty sure she's a pathological liar in that she can't even she doesn't even know what lies she's telling her why you know what i mean like she just keeps telling them until she's caught and like cornered it's the weirdest case of lying I've ever heard.

[234] She said she was a shame to tell her parents and that's why she lied about where she was.

[235] But actually, she was staying most of it with her boyfriend.

[236] She gives a physical description of Zanny and in the interviews.

[237] She sounds totally calm.

[238] She doesn't sound panicked about her daughter missing, which is bizarre.

[239] And police already were like, something's very off about this, obviously.

[240] So police obviously say, take us to Zanny's apartment.

[241] Basically, they get to this apartment.

[242] She points out the door.

[243] Police knock on the door.

[244] No one answers.

[245] When they look in the windows, they see that the apartment is completely vacant.

[246] Nobody lives there.

[247] Yeah.

[248] And when they go back the next day to speak with the building manager, the manager is like, that place has been vacant for months.

[249] And no one named Zanida Fernandez -Gonzalez has ever lived.

[250] There's nobody by that name has ever lived here.

[251] Casey's also told police that she's confided in two of her co -workers at Universal Studios about her daughter's disappearance.

[252] Like, that's her corroboration.

[253] She just, tells them these two people who had never worked there.

[254] When police go to Universal to try and confirm this, they're told that Casey hasn't worked there in more than two years.

[255] And police, they don't tell her this.

[256] Instead, they drive her to Universal and ask them to bring her to their office so they can talk.

[257] So they, like, call her on her shit.

[258] They go as far as getting into the building, getting let in by security, even though she doesn't have a badge.

[259] I think the security guard was in on it.

[260] And he's like, you're not in the system.

[261] And she's like, this is my manager.

[262] this is my supervisor so he's like okay you can go in because they're like what is she going to fucking do she doesn't fucking work here she takes it all the way through the office waving at her supposed co -workers who are looking that confused because they don't know who this woman is walks down a hallway that's a dead end and stops and this is when she says okay you got me I don't work here like she took it all the way to the end desperate desperate that's a good word for it Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

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[283] Goodbye.

[284] So it turns out that Casey has a bit of a history with lying.

[285] And Cindy, her mom, has a bit of a history with backing up those lies.

[286] There's this story that I feel like would be inconsequential if it wasn't in this particular story.

[287] But it is basically Casey wasn't going to graduate from high school.

[288] But she didn't tell me when this, her mom had already planned a big graduation part.

[289] party at their house.

[290] Cindy finds out that she's not going to graduate the day before the ceremony.

[291] Cindy didn't tell anyone or call off the party.

[292] They even went to the graduation ceremony and lied to her, like, her family members about why she wasn't walking and getting her diploma on stage like everyone else, like made something up about that and just said it was a mistake on the school's part.

[293] So still went through with that, which I can understand in a like keeping up appearances.

[294] A lot of families have that.

[295] Yes.

[296] And if this is a kid who has consistently had this behavior.

[297] Like it doesn't seem like this is something it just suddenly pops up.

[298] Yeah.

[299] So she's used to basically, I would assume, she's used to covering for her daughter and she's used to maybe what's the most important thing to her, which is like you're saying appearances as opposed to her daughter getting any repercussions and the having to answer for her lying.

[300] Totally.

[301] And it's like if that never happens, then it's always just kind of okay like in Casey's mind.

[302] It's just like it'll be fine.

[303] Like no one actually ever cares enough to do anything about this.

[304] If my lies get caught, it's fine.

[305] Like someone else will take care of it.

[306] And from everyone's perspective, Cindy is the decider of the house.

[307] Like nobody crosses Cindy.

[308] What Cindy says goes.

[309] I'm not trying to paint her as a villain because I think she's a completely innocent victim in this story.

[310] Her granddaughter was killed.

[311] I don't think she had anything to do with it at all.

[312] But what Cindy said goes, essentially, and that might have influenced Casey's behavior.

[313] And she, you know, was a harsh, kind of a harsh critic on Casey, too, having a baby so young.

[314] I think Cindy kind of criticized her a lot on her parenting and having had a baby so young, you know?

[315] So I think that influenced Casey's idiotic decisions.

[316] So this is such a complicated case because people's feelings about this are fucking deep and hardcore, and people believe what they believe, period, and you can't change their minds about it.

[317] So, got to tread lightly.

[318] Also, Casey didn't tell anyone in her family when she became pregnant with Kaylee at 19.

[319] She only told her mother she was pregnant when she was more than seven months along, and people were starting to notice her bump.

[320] Even after that, she didn't say anything to her older brother, Lee, and Lee was like, what is going on?

[321] And they, like, kind of blew him off, which she was like, why isn't anyone telling me what's going on?

[322] It's almost like, deny, deny, hide it.

[323] Let's pretend it's not happening until it's impossible to deny.

[324] I mean, yeah.

[325] And hearing that, it makes me feel like maybe that mom, because she couldn't really control her daughter or do anything about the behavior.

[326] She was a big enabler.

[327] It was like, I'm going to make it okay for you.

[328] Right, right.

[329] And you don't have to take responsibility for your actions, which, spoiler alert.

[330] But also, Casey never told anyone who the father was, to this day.

[331] Nobody knows who the father was.

[332] So after the truth comes out at Universal Studios, the police continue to question her.

[333] She insists up and down.

[334] She will not let go of the fact that she doesn't know where Kaylee is and that Zanny, the nanny, left with her and kidnapped her.

[335] She will not let this go, even though they're like, there is no fucking Zanny that we know there isn't.

[336] Like, you can listen to the interviews.

[337] It's infuriating her tone of voice and that she won't.

[338] like listen to what is happening and accept it.

[339] It's fucking crazy.

[340] They know she's full of shit, but she continues to say what she's saying.

[341] And they ultimately arrest her for child neglect.

[342] So while Casey's in jail, the police go to visit her boyfriend, Tony, Lazaro.

[343] Both Tony and his roommate are surprised to hear that Casey's daughter is missing because Casey and Tony, they'd been dating since April and Kaylee had been brought over to the house a lot.

[344] And She kind of always had her daughter on her.

[345] And they said that Casey was actually a loving and attentive mother.

[346] Everyone says this.

[347] There is no dispute.

[348] Thank God.

[349] Yeah.

[350] That actually is a huge relief to hear.

[351] And you see the photos of them together.

[352] And I mean, photos can lie, but they do look really happy and connected.

[353] Every single one of her friends, her boyfriend, everyone says she was a very loving mother and she loved her daughter a lot.

[354] But also in the middle of June, Casey was at the apartment almost constantly and Kaylee was nowhere to be seen.

[355] And whenever they asked about Kaylee, Casey would say that she was with the nanny.

[356] So even, she even, you know, was lying to her boyfriend and her friends also about this.

[357] Police actually find a woman named Zanida Fernandez -Gonzalez living in Florida.

[358] They find this woman.

[359] They bring her for questioning.

[360] She says she's never met Casey or Kaylee.

[361] She's never babysat Kaylee.

[362] She's not a nanny.

[363] It's all verified.

[364] So people are like, did she make this name up?

[365] What's the deal?

[366] And a lot of people have found that she had a neighbor whose last name was Zanida and another neighbor whose last name was Gonzales.

[367] So she might have just fucking pulled those names out of the blue.

[368] And there was actually someone named that in Florida.

[369] Weird.

[370] So Casey's parents visit her in jail.

[371] The call is recorded.

[372] This will make you hate her no matter what happens.

[373] The conversation that's videotaped between her.

[374] her parents who are like, you know, are getting like search parties together, holding vigils, like have t -shirts made to like find Kaylee.

[375] They are trying so hard to find this granddaughter.

[376] And this fucking chick, Casey, like, talks about what she's eating and like laughs and doesn't cry when they talk about this and is like annoyed.

[377] It is so fucking upsetting.

[378] And Cindy tearfully tells Casey that investigators seem to think.

[379] that Kaylee's dead.

[380] Casey says, surprise, surprise.

[381] Like, she's fucking flippant.

[382] What?

[383] Yeah, she's like acting like they're coming after her and they're targeting her and she's being unfairly.

[384] And the only time she cries is when it's about the way she's being treated.

[385] Yeah.

[386] She never shows any interest in finding her daughter.

[387] Not good.

[388] Not good.

[389] So she says, quote, everything's been taken from me. That's when she cries.

[390] At this point, Casey hires a a then unknown defense attorney named Jose Baez.

[391] Over the course of the next few months, details of the investigation are given to the press.

[392] Like, everything is given to the press.

[393] These videos, the phone call records, all of that stuff.

[394] Photosurface of Casey dancing at a nightclub during the time that Kaylee was missing.

[395] She was in a like hot bods contest at this nightclub, like dancing on stage laughing.

[396] It's not a good look.

[397] Which is like you can't, you know, as we say, everyone reacts to trauma different.

[398] but I don't know.

[399] Yeah.

[400] I mean, here's the thing.

[401] This is an old case.

[402] So I think we all know more than just like as if this was breaking news.

[403] Yeah.

[404] So it's much easier, of course, to judge in retrospect.

[405] But at the same time, I think it's like people talk about no one knows how you're going to react to trauma in terms of tears being stoic, laughing inappropriately, whatever.

[406] That's a different thing than having a lifestyle that doesn't track.

[407] Yeah.

[408] There's no question in my mind.

[409] I think there's no question that at this point when this is happening, when the photos are being taken, when the hot bod, when she gets a tattoo that says Bella Vita, which means beautiful life, she is 100 % aware that her daughter is dead.

[410] Like, there's no question there.

[411] So that's really upsetting.

[412] And of course, the media fucking eats it up, reports on all of this.

[413] It's almost immediately a national story.

[414] And most people who remember this case associated heavily with Nancy Grace.

[415] She does wall -to -wall coverage of the case.

[416] So Casey is released on bond, re -arrested, on various charges a few times in the initial months of the investigation.

[417] And, like, people mob her when she's out.

[418] Like, people are obsessed with this case.

[419] I don't think anyone listening now who wasn't around or aware back then.

[420] People call it the trial of the century, the next OJ, which isn't, I guess, in terms of coverage, it was.

[421] Police bring cadaver dogs to Casey's car and the dogs, of course, alert and the dogs, of course, alert the trunk where that smell had been coming from.

[422] They also alert to one area in the yard, but police don't find anything there.

[423] Police interview Anthony's neighbor who says that Casey Anthony borrowed a shovel from her on the day that Kaylee was last seen.

[424] And thousands of people fan out all around Orlando looking for the missing toddler.

[425] So police focus on the trunk of the car.

[426] The floor of the trunk has a stain on it, and they also find several hairs.

[427] They send a sample of the carpet and the hair to be analyzed.

[428] And so mitochondrial DNA, which is passed through the mother, shows that the hairs had belonged to either Cindy, the grandma, Casey, or Kaylee.

[429] Right.

[430] But the hair is long and untreated, which investigators take to think it is Kaylee's hair.

[431] And those hairs have a dark band by the root, which is a sign of decomposition.

[432] The carpet sample is sent for analysis to a scientist named R -Pad Voss, and there's so many of these, like, little breakdowns of evidence and things brought up at the trial that could literally be their own one -hour episode, like the trunk and the gases and the testing and the hair and everything just from the trunk I could talk about for a half an hour.

[433] I'm also not a scientist, so I would talk about it and be wrong about a lot of things, so I'm not going to do that.

[434] Okay.

[435] So Dr. Voss had developed a method for testing the vapors emitted from the carpet trunk.

[436] He finds gases that are unique to human decomposition.

[437] He also finds high evidence of chloroform in the carpet.

[438] So I think another thing that's not questioned at this point is that at some point Kaylee was dead and in the trunk.

[439] I think there's kind of no question on that one.

[440] But everything is so convoluted in this case, including with the prosecutors and defense, end up using and bringing to the trial.

[441] that things that are so obvious to everyone else are now questioned, including the chloroform.

[442] So the results given to prosecutors, they seem like it's enough evidence to charge Casey with murder, so she's indicted on October of 2008, even though Kaylee's body hasn't been found.

[443] So this all changes in December of 2008 when a utility worker named Roy Kronk pulls over by the side of the road to pee in the wooded area.

[444] This wooded area is like right down the road from the Anthony House.

[445] It's not far away.

[446] It's not really secluded even.

[447] The area wasn't in the initial search for Kaylee because it was mostly flooded when they were searching for her.

[448] About 20 feet away from the road, Roy spots something on the ground and realizes it's a human skull.

[449] So he reports it.

[450] Police are called and they find a torn open black trash bag and a big canvas laundry bag.

[451] Roy had actually reported seeing the trash bag, but no bones, on a previous stop in the same spot in August.

[452] So he had seen it before and thought it was suspicious, but they didn't come look at it.

[453] The police didn't come.

[454] Right.

[455] There are bones in the trash bags and also scattered on the ground.

[456] Investigators believe the bones look like those of a small child.

[457] A baby blanket with Winnie the Pooh is found nearby.

[458] The bag has been torn open and the bones have been scattered most likely by animals in the area.

[459] And about a week later, the medical examiner announces that the remains are Cayle's and that the manner of death is homicide.

[460] But there's no indication of homicide, exactly.

[461] So I wonder why they didn't say, like, suspicious death or something like that rather than homicide.

[462] I don't get that.

[463] There's also duct tape found what is assumed had been wrapped around her face, but there's no evidence for that.

[464] The duct tape, too, itself, can be 30 minutes of conversation if you're not what you're talking about because there's so much conjecture over it.

[465] The police search the Anthony House.

[466] They find that Kaylee's room is decorated with a Winnie the Pooh theme.

[467] They find a laundry bag that matches the one found in the woods and it turns out that it's a canvas laundry bag that's sold as a set of two.

[468] So it's clear whatever happened to her happened at the house there.

[469] Casey's trial is pushed back for two years and begins in May of 2011 KCasey's now 25 years old.

[470] She's charged with first degree murder as well as aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse.

[471] The prosecution is seeking the death penalty for that murder charge.

[472] And a lot of people view this first degree murder charge and death penalty option as the prosecution's fatal error.

[473] Because to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, they don't have the evidence to do that.

[474] if they had charged her with manslaughter or aggravated manslaughter, they might have had a chance is the big criticism of the prosecution.

[475] But do you think that they did that because, like, culturally, I mean, it was never not in the news every single day.

[476] And I remember one day watching Nancy Grace talk about this, she was like, this woman is evil, she's guilty, the kind of narrative that was being.

[477] built, there was no innocent until proving guilty in terms of our culture with this.

[478] So I wonder if that was reactive of like, we're going to throw the book at her.

[479] Yeah, I think people still to the day back then fucking hated her.

[480] And the idea, I think to society of a mother killing her child is there's nothing worse than that in the world.

[481] Accidental or not.

[482] And it reminds me, you know, people who get prosecuted for accidentally leaving their children in their car and those cases just break my fucking heart and then they go on to get charged with negligence which is like I just people are so angry when these things happen understandably right and I think what you're saying is there's nothing worse in the world but like compared to those horrible stories of mothers killing their children when they have really terrible untreated postpartum or something else going on But the storyline that I always absorbed behind this was she killed her own daughter so that she could have a social life again or that, you know what I mean?

[483] Yes.

[484] That's kind of what all got tied to this.

[485] That is the narrative for sure.

[486] Yeah.

[487] So I think that would make people even angrier.

[488] Yes, for sure.

[489] The partying pictures definitely did not help.

[490] And they also not just have to prove that she murdered her daughter, but they have to prove that it was premeditated for this to be a death penalty.

[491] case.

[492] Right.

[493] So that's a tall order when there's like a ton of evidence.

[494] Anyway, of course, they have to find an impartial jury.

[495] Like, that's, can you fucking imagine at this point?

[496] Yeah, impossible.

[497] They went as far as bringing jurors in from two hours away.

[498] The judge wouldn't move the trial, two hours away.

[499] Like, there isn't anyone in this fucking country that hadn't heard about it.

[500] No. It was like cover of people magazine type of stuff.

[501] It was very of that.

[502] era where it was like, this is also being treated just as regular news.

[503] Yeah, salacious.

[504] So they brought in people from Clearwater, Florida, essentially, and, like, sequester them.

[505] At this point, too, people have the Internet and smartphones, so there aren't people, like, you know, if it had been 10 years earlier even, people might not have read as much of this on the internet.

[506] But anyway, also, every day at the trial, there are a limited number of seats reserved for the public.

[507] People begin lining up for the lottery for those seats at three.

[508] in the morning.

[509] Like the crowds outside of the court are bananas.

[510] They get into fistfights while they wait in line to like get a seat.

[511] At least 40 million people watch some part of the trial on television.

[512] All throughout, cameras are trained on Casey in the court.

[513] She comes in each day in like business attire with a slicked back ponytail.

[514] I think trying to look presentable and mature.

[515] People hate her.

[516] Doesn't matter.

[517] Sometimes she reacts to the evidence of what's being said, shaking her head.

[518] Sometimes she doesn't.

[519] So her attorney, Jose Baez's opening statement, introduces a brand new story that no one has ever heard before.

[520] Like, this is the crazy part.

[521] It's just like the theory is that the prosecutor in defense fucking throw out.

[522] And then later, Casey Anthony herself on a documentary throwout.

[523] Like, you can't, you can't like sip through the muck without running into a roadblock.

[524] He says on the morning of June 16th, 2008, that Kaylee had slipped out of the house and drowned in the Anthony's swimming pool.

[525] They had an above ground swimming pool in their backyard.

[526] Kaylee loved swimming.

[527] She was almost three years old.

[528] So they would take the stairs away from the pool whenever they weren't using it.

[529] Like they drilled that into their head.

[530] They locked the gate that was leading to the pool.

[531] That was part of their life.

[532] So that Kaylee wouldn't get in the pool, right?

[533] So he says that Kaylee slipped out of the house and someone had left the stairs up and that Kaylee had drowned in the swimming pool.

[534] He says that George, the father and Casey found her.

[535] So now they're involving the dad, saying the dad was complicit in what was going on and that it was George who told Casey, I got this, everything's fine, and he's the one who disposed of Kaylee's body.

[536] And that was to prevent Casey from being charged with child neglect.

[537] So they're adding him as an accessory to this story.

[538] And in this, Baez brings the parents into the cover -up, which is a huge part of the prosecution's case against Casey.

[539] And also, there's a thing that comes out in the trial that when the Anthony family, more specifically, George, would dispose of a dead pet, they would do so in the exact manner that Kaylee's body was found with the bags, with the tape.

[540] And then in another bag, like, that was known to them to dispose of a dead pet that way.

[541] It's so disgusting.

[542] Because ultimately at the end of the day, whoever is responsible or not responsible, this is why I never paid attention to this case.

[543] It's just disgusting to even hear any of this.

[544] Sorry, happy holidays.

[545] No, I mean, but also it's that kind of thing where it's like, I think it's fascinating to look back on a case that I was avoiding and couldn't avoid because it was so, it was everywhere and it was being handled in the craziest way possible.

[546] Definitely.

[547] So the Anthony's had been warned that they were.

[548] going to be brought into implications.

[549] Like, they had been told that.

[550] They were in the court sitting there when Baez addresses another point about Casey's lying by saying that her father, George, taught her to lie from an early age because he was sexually abusing her.

[551] Oh, no. So they bring that into the trial.

[552] George Anthony is in the courtroom when this happens.

[553] Baez will also say that Casey's brother Lee also.

[554] also abused her.

[555] Personally, I think these allegations are totally false.

[556] I know a lot of people think it's true, but I also don't know.

[557] Who the fuck knows?

[558] Who am I to say?

[559] It's all speculation.

[560] The prosecution calls George as a witness.

[561] He denies the accusations.

[562] On cross -examination, bias doesn't ask about the sexual abuse.

[563] Instead, he asked George about an occasion shortly after a discovery of Kaylee's body that he attempted to take his own life, which is true.

[564] George made the attempt in a hotel room in Daytona shortly after Kaylee's body was discovered.

[565] He left a note saying that he wanted to be with his granddaughter, but he had texted some family goodbye, and so they were able to track him down and save his life.

[566] He breaks down on the stand when this is brought up.

[567] It's just human carnage.

[568] This is like if you were trying to write out the worst version of one of these true crime stories, it's the worst of every piece.

[569] It goes the worst in every direction.

[570] Definitely.

[571] So the prosecution's case is that Casey killed Kaylee by putting her to sleep with chloroform.

[572] That's their theory.

[573] And then suffocated her with the duct tape that had been found with her remains.

[574] So they point to searches for chloroform on the computer at the Anthony House.

[575] Someone had looked up chloroform.

[576] The prosecution claims that the word was searched 84 times.

[577] And this is just one of the many mistakes that the prosecution made.

[578] their expert who found that that they searched 84 times was wrong.

[579] They found out later after the trial it had only been searched one time.

[580] And it had been done back in March and when I did some research on that, her boyfriend had posted some fucking tasteless meme on Facebook about chloroform and women.

[581] It's like tasteless and terrible.

[582] And so it seems like right when he posted that, she searched the word chloroform.

[583] And then she searched the words self -defense, So it seems like that was what the chloroform search was about.

[584] It didn't happen right when Kaylee disappeared.

[585] Don't buy it.

[586] One search and having it related to, like, it's all coincidence.

[587] I mean, literally everything you've said so far, it's all circumstantial evidence.

[588] It absolutely is.

[589] It absolutely is.

[590] On the stand, Cindy Anthony says she was the one who searched chloroform, mistaking it for the word chlorophyll.

[591] Like, again, she's coming to her daughter's defense.

[592] somehow.

[593] The prosecution also leans heavily on the photos of Casey out at clubs during the time Kaylee had been missing, like tarnishing her character, which is already tarnished.

[594] The defense calls a forensic scientist's name Werner Spitz, who had a long and storied career.

[595] He had consulted on investigations into the assassination of JFK and Martin Luther King Jr. He had also worked on the Nightstocker murders, the Jean -Bene Ramsey case, so he's professional.

[596] Dr. Spitz having examined Kaylee's remains does not believe the duct tape that was found at the scene could have been covering her mouth or nose because there's no skin or DNA found on the duct tape.

[597] The defense in general pokes a lot of holes into the prosecution's forensics, which is adding to reasonable doubt.

[598] So what the defense doesn't do is present any additional evidence that Kaylee drowned and that George was involved.

[599] That's just their theory and they just threw it out there.

[600] They also say nothing more about the allegations that George and her brother sexually abused Casey.

[601] So Casey was actually analyzed by therapists and psychiatrists on both sides, the defense and the prosecution.

[602] And every single person said she is sane.

[603] There is nothing wrong with her and that she loved her daughter.

[604] Like there was no question about her sanity at all or even like being a sociopath.

[605] There was nothing, which I found very surprising.

[606] Yeah.

[607] Basically, Casey's psychologist said that, quote, Casey did not want to disappoint her family or feel rejected by her family, and so her first alternative was often to lie to the family.

[608] The way Casey deals with things, she was raised in a family where I think there were some pretty inadequate ways of coping with conflict and stress with denial and secrecy.

[609] The trial lasts almost three months and concludes on July 4th, 2011.

[610] The jury finds Casey not guilty, not just on the first.

[611] first -degree murder charge, but on the aggravated manslaughter and child abuse charges as well.

[612] She is found guilty of giving false information to law enforcement.

[613] And people, there's, you know, the videos of people outside the court and in, you know, restaurants and shit watching this on TV and they fucking lose their shit.

[614] Everyone thinks she's guilty.

[615] So with time spent already, she's released from prison about a week after the verdict is read.

[616] People protest online and in social media.

[617] Others immediately point out the mistakes the prosecutors made.

[618] both in the investigation, the charges, and the trial.

[619] Another mistake comes to light a year later, and this to me is like, I can't believe this.

[620] It turns out that the investigators, when they looked at the family browsing history on the, you know, they had a home computer, that's all they had, there were no laptops, and they looked at Internet Explorer to see what the browsing history was.

[621] Nobody checked Firefox.

[622] Oh.

[623] Nobody knew that there was a different browser on the fucking computer.

[624] So did they check it?

[625] They checked it and they found that on the day Kaylee was last seen, someone had searched, quote, foolproof suffocation.

[626] Oh, my God.

[627] On Firefox.

[628] And that wasn't in the trial because they didn't know to fucking search Firefox.

[629] What do you think?

[630] Hard to say.

[631] I mean, like, you're just telling me like the basic stuff.

[632] But I think foolproof asphyxiation or whatever you said, that search.

[633] was, doesn't look good.

[634] No. And so that is the kind of thing where, look, we could theorize all day long, and I'm sure a million people have, I don't know how you could have, like, I don't know how I could have, I should say, any kind of opinion.

[635] Because I've heard only for the majority of time, she did it and it's so clear she did it, and then she got off on a technicality, which I'm sure is infuriating.

[636] But if there's something else to know about her innocence, and some sort of like, here's how she's been misconstrued, here's how they're wrong about what they're talking about.

[637] I've never heard anybody being like, this is this misogyny about women, you know, any of that stuff is like, it feels like that hasn't come into the conversation because it doesn't apply to the conversation.

[638] Totally.

[639] I don't think it does.

[640] I watch the, there's like a peacock documentary where it's like clearly she's the star of the show that it's about her.

[641] Of course, you're not going to be like, you know, she's guilty.

[642] I mean, and she's just confoundingly unlikable and it's so hard.

[643] You can't empathize with her.

[644] There's no way to do that at all.

[645] And she makes it really fucking hard because of her personality because of what she presents.

[646] Yes.

[647] It is almost impossible to empathize with her.

[648] And so you have to assume that she did something.

[649] But the evidence, like chloroform in the trunk, cleaning products have chloroform.

[650] them, you know?

[651] And if she drowned, if little Kaylee drowned, then the chlorine can turn into chloroform.

[652] It's just every single point of how she did it on purpose can be explained to be an accident, you know?

[653] Right.

[654] But vice versa, everything that can be explained to be an accident could be murder.

[655] Could have been intentional.

[656] Yeah.

[657] Yeah.

[658] Or, you know, that in her dad is weird and hard to fucking empathize with two and seems suspicious as fuck.

[659] But there's no evidence that he was part of it that truly sticks, you know?

[660] Here's the one thing I will put out there as a person who just kind of voluntarily doesn't know about it, so won't really theorize in any way.

[661] But the whole idea of bringing into the courtroom the accusation toward her own father that he sexually abused her would be maybe relevant or would be something.

[662] She was a part of that theory.

[663] So that's not like the lawyer said it.

[664] That's not the lawyers.

[665] I mean, it could have been the lawyer's idea.

[666] Right.

[667] And she accepted it.

[668] She agreed that that should be her defense.

[669] Yeah.

[670] And that, I think, is like with all the other things you're talking about, it's just hard to put anything into place where it's like, are these the most protective parents in the world?

[671] Are they the most fucked up parents in the world?

[672] And then what does that mean about what she's doing?

[673] Like, it only adds to the confusion.

[674] It doesn't help anything because you would want that storyline to then go, okay, so if this is, if she has been horribly traumatized and abused by this family, then she's doing all these things.

[675] Yeah.

[676] I can see where they would think that that might garner empathy for her situation.

[677] Right.

[678] But to me, it feels tactical.

[679] I don't know.

[680] And that's just an off -the -cuff judgment because this is the place we've been put in with her.

[681] where we can judge her and we want to judge her.

[682] And it's like, this is the type of woman that should never be allowed to blank.

[683] It's like, this is what our culture does all the time to women, which is like, how dare you?

[684] And this is the most disgusting version of a mother.

[685] So, yeah, I don't know.

[686] Well, I will say that in a 2017 Associated Press interview, she said, quote, I don't give a shit about what anyone thinks about me. I never will.

[687] I'm okay with myself.

[688] I sleep pretty good at night.

[689] I, I, me, me, I. You're telling me that's not a sociopath?

[690] Yes, it is.

[691] I know.

[692] It is.

[693] They're talking to her about the murder of her daughter.

[694] And she's like, I don't care what happens to me. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[695] I sleep well at night.

[696] Yeah.

[697] Why do you sleep well?

[698] And even if it was an accident, even if you made a bunch of mistakes, you lost your daughter.

[699] Yeah, you shouldn't sleep well at night.

[700] Yeah.

[701] Casey now lives in Florida with one of the private investigators who worked on her defense team and helps him with his private investigation business.

[702] Like that's her life now.

[703] And that is a story of Kaylee Anthony who would have turned 18 this past August.

[704] Oh man. Happy holidays, everyone.

[705] Wow, well the really horrible one to cover.

[706] Yeah, it's a horrible one.

[707] It's a big one.

[708] I'm glad we got that out of the way.

[709] never have to do it again and never have to talk about it.

[710] I never have to do late night dives again on that case.

[711] Right.

[712] And story, you know.

[713] It's almost like you went in and really looked into the void there and got all the information about it.

[714] I did.

[715] I immersed myself and I never want to think about it again.

[716] Here's what we can think about.

[717] Yeah.

[718] It's the holiday season.

[719] It's the holiday season.

[720] Hopefully you've got some fun things going on.

[721] Have you got your shopping done?

[722] Are you thinking about what your sister actually wants versus what you're going to get her at the last minute?

[723] There are a lot of great things to now focus on now that you're done with this homework.

[724] What are you going to get your sister for the holidays?

[725] Well, I really like to buy my sister expensive face products because she won't do it.

[726] So I always love like setting her up with that and she knows I love it.

[727] So then she's like, ooh, you got me the perfect stuff.

[728] I love that.

[729] What about you?

[730] I just get my sister slippers.

[731] I need to level up.

[732] Now, what's the bracket on Hanukkah?

[733] Do you guys have like a limit or a ceiling or a floor about spending?

[734] Not for the kids.

[735] There's no limit.

[736] But I think that the adults, we give each other like token gifts, like the box of chocolates from Trader Joe's or slippers.

[737] There's no, like, it's a token.

[738] We don't do like big gifts.

[739] My mom, my God, if I told you what my mom got us.

[740] she got me a negligee for my birthday and she didn't warn me before I opened it in front of my entire family G string negligee no I have more G string since I was in high school are you fucking kidding no I'm not so we'll see what she gets this year for Hanukkah and see how that fucking goes bright pink neon pink lace is she joking is it a joke I don't I don't think she gets it.

[741] I don't think she's in on the joke.

[742] Someone else to send her just a quick note.

[743] I'll do it.

[744] Janet, Janet, that's inappropriate.

[745] But she did it with love it.

[746] I have one and I love it.

[747] I thought you'd love it.

[748] And then text, do you guys love it?

[749] Do you love it?

[750] I'm like, stop asking me if I love the negligee.

[751] You've got me to wear for my husband.

[752] It's weird.

[753] Like, she means well.

[754] So I don't know.

[755] She wants the best for you.

[756] And that's the way she thinks you're going to get it.

[757] You know, give your, give, give gifts with that kind of love in your heart.

[758] Yeah.

[759] Enthusiasm.

[760] Yeah, exactly.

[761] And stay sexy.

[762] And don't get murdered.

[763] Goodbye.

[764] Goodbye.

[765] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[766] This has been an exactly right production.

[767] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[768] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[769] is Aristotle Acevedo.

[770] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachie.

[771] Our researchers are Marin McClashen and Allie Elkin.

[772] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[773] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[774] Goodbye.

[775] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[776] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[777] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase My Favorite Murder merch.