Sanjay Gupta #4 (on dementia and weight loss drugs)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] Experts on expert.

[2] There is an old friend coming by.

[3] Repeat.

[4] He is jockeying for most frequent guests.

[5] He is, and he's up there.

[6] He's in a dead heat maybe with Cedaris.

[7] Yeah.

[8] Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

[9] What a sweetheart from Livonia, Michigan.

[10] That's always going to make me like him more than everyone else.

[11] Yeah, and he's one of those guests we have where we just start talking.

[12] and it's so interesting.

[13] Yeah, and he can pretty much tell you about anything in the health sphere and touchdown on the most exciting topics.

[14] In fact, today we go over Alzheimer's, the weight loss drugs.

[15] We talked about marijuana.

[16] Marijuana.

[17] Yes.

[18] Yeah, everything under the sun.

[19] And he has a new documentary out on May 19th on CNN called The Last Alzheimer's Patient, and we talk a lot about that.

[20] Of course, Sanjay is a neurosurgeon with a practice.

[21] and CNN's chief medical correspondent.

[22] He has a new season of his podcast out, now wherever you get your podcast called Chasing Life, The Science Behind Happiness.

[23] Who wouldn't want to know about that?

[24] Please enjoy our sweet, sweet friend, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

[25] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[26] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[27] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[28] He's an object spread.

[29] How are you?

[30] Just get out of the gym.

[31] Yeah, sorry.

[32] Catch you my breath.

[33] I feel solid.

[34] Hi, so good to see you.

[35] You too.

[36] In person.

[37] In person.

[38] Back in person.

[39] It's been a wild.

[40] I've been offered all the drink.

[41] I got my drink, yeah, I'm good.

[42] You don't need a coffee or anything?

[43] No, good.

[44] Tell me about your coffee intake.

[45] I do a cup a day.

[46] I never drank coffee before the pandemic.

[47] Oh, interesting.

[48] Oh, interesting.

[49] My whole life.

[50] Wow.

[51] Never liked it.

[52] It's so tempting to stereotype when we have two Indians in the room.

[53] Yeah.

[54] Because Monica was a very late adapter to caffeine too.

[55] Yeah, I also hated it.

[56] Oh, that's weird.

[57] You're two of only five people I know that came to it that late.

[58] Yeah.

[59] Well, the thing is, I drank caffeine.

[60] I just didn't like coffee.

[61] Oh, tea.

[62] Okay, so you had soda or whatever.

[63] I'd have soda.

[64] I'd have tea.

[65] Coffee just did not taste good to me. And it was really weird because everybody that I know, especially in the medical world.

[66] They all drink coffee.

[67] Copious amounts, yeah.

[68] Multiple cups a day.

[69] Did not like it.

[70] And then my wife started giving it to me during the pandemic.

[71] Giving it to you like it was medicinal.

[72] It was.

[73] I was getting up at 4 .30 every morning.

[74] Right, trying to stay on top of all the...

[75] Make my calls to the other side of the world before they go to bed.

[76] And I need a caffeine.

[77] And I got this good coffee.

[78] Purity, I don't know if you're supposed to talk about brands.

[79] It's a good, clean coffee.

[80] What makes it unique?

[81] The other stuff, I felt like I could always taste chemicals in the back of it.

[82] Yeah, to get that chemical after to my mouth.

[83] With purity, it's just clean.

[84] I want to try it.

[85] I am fully addicted to Starby's in the same way I was addicted to Camelites, like it's my religion.

[86] And people even point out, like, you know, that's overly cooked and burnt and blah, blah, blah.

[87] I'm like, yeah, whatever it is.

[88] You don't taste it.

[89] It's perfect for me. Everyone has their own palate.

[90] Now, once you like it, because, okay, similarly, grow up my grandparents, percolator, Livonia.

[91] I remember.

[92] Yes.

[93] Milford Township.

[94] But all my summers in Livonia.

[95] And that percolator went all day long, the big coffee pot.

[96] So it smelled so good.

[97] And I wanted to like it for so long.

[98] And it was terrible as you were just describing.

[99] And then one day it was delicious.

[100] Huh, just clicked.

[101] Don't you think that is one of the weirdest phenomena with your taste buds?

[102] It doesn't surprise me that we are constantly changing.

[103] That our taste buds are microbiome, what we like, what we don't like, what we find sweet or palatable changes as we get older.

[104] Frankly, it may change even day to day or month a month.

[105] We have that much sort of dynamic changes in our body.

[106] So it doesn't necessarily surprise me. Yeah.

[107] By the way, you look ripped.

[108] Can I just tell you?

[109] Please tell me all day.

[110] I mean, I'm just saying.

[111] Okay.

[112] To put off some of that compliment, I literally just walked upstairs from the gym.

[113] So this is as good as it's going to look for the next two days.

[114] Did you do it just for me?

[115] Of course I do.

[116] I appreciate it.

[117] You're bringing the brains.

[118] I got to bring the brawn.

[119] It's got to be Ian and Yang.

[120] You guys got both.

[121] I I just want to say I've been really looking forward to this.

[122] Us too.

[123] This is the fourth time.

[124] Yeah, that's a bit.

[125] You're one of our biggest.

[126] You may have tied Sedaris with this episode or maybe one behind.

[127] Probably one behind.

[128] He's four or five.

[129] I'll be back next week.

[130] In fact, you should just come back at four and just do back to back.

[131] You're investigating enough things that I'm sure we could fill two hours with any number of topics.

[132] So before we even get into that, what fascinates me about your role is you're also in show business.

[133] And so you do publicity tours.

[134] Like, here's what I thought.

[135] I walked out of the gym, and I saw a really nice escalate sitting in the driveway.

[136] And I said, oh, that's Sanjay's.

[137] Sunji definitely has a driver that CNN provides because he is also expected to go out and promote the show.

[138] In a lot of ways, you're like an actor that would travel around and do press tours.

[139] Yeah, you know, it's funny.

[140] I've never thought of it that way.

[141] That sort of stuff was always sort of the add -on.

[142] And frankly, I'm not even really promoting anything.

[143] You guys provided this wonderful invitation.

[144] And as soon as I saw it, I just did.

[145] jumped at the opportunity to be here.

[146] I'm not just saying that.

[147] I'm trying to think, am I promoting something right now?

[148] I'm not even sure.

[149] Well, yes.

[150] May 19th, you've got the last Alzheimer's patient on CNN.

[151] I'm very excited about that.

[152] You have a podcast of your own chasing life.

[153] Yes.

[154] You have a couple of forthcoming documentaries you're making that are a great interest to me. One in particular, the weight loss drugs.

[155] I want to talk about that ad nauseum if we could.

[156] I just got back from Copenhagen.

[157] Oh, you did?

[158] Yeah, so the federal government two days ago signal that they're going to pretty much declassify weed or reschedule it.

[159] You're going to be a lot of talk about it now.

[160] Drop it down in a schedule.

[161] Tylenol level, Kristen.

[162] Tylenol with codeine.

[163] Still controlled.

[164] So it's not recreationally going to be different than what it already is.

[165] There's so many states that have it recreationally.

[166] But it's a big move.

[167] Something we've been talking about for a long time.

[168] I think it can be a medicine.

[169] The culture and the science, the collision of those two around cannabis is one of the most fascinating things that I think I've reported on, just how it all comes together.

[170] Yeah, and there's also some, like, geopolitical and historical ramifications of it.

[171] We're generally not leading this as a country.

[172] We're pretty conservative.

[173] And it's kind of shocking that we will potentially be joining a handful of countries globally out of hundreds of countries that actually might decriminalize it entirely.

[174] And that's not generally our position either.

[175] It's not.

[176] And even this rescheduling, to be fair, we'll still have this federal versus state dichotomy.

[177] There still may be problems in certain places for people to access this as a medicine, traveling with it across state lines.

[178] That's boggled my mind that you could use it as a legitimate medicine for your child with seizures in California, but potentially be criminalized for the same thing in a different state.

[179] So this doesn't necessarily address it because it's still a controlled substance.

[180] Yes, but I think we would both recognize the very well -worn pattern of this, which is most states started with a medical use clause, which then grew into recreational use.

[181] Fuck it, we're here.

[182] Let's talk about marijuana.

[183] We have now a pretty robust data set.

[184] I don't know how many years it's been, but I believe Colorado's got to be coming up on maybe a decade or something of having fully recreational legalized marijuana.

[185] That's right.

[186] And so I imagine we have a good sense of what the impact of that is, good or bad, plus and minus.

[187] Look, you can even go further back to prohibition because that provided some really interesting data on what happens when you actually, in that case, deregulate something.

[188] You do see usage go up for a period of time, but ultimately it probably sort of balances out to where it was before.

[189] So there's not this huge clamoring all of a sudden for people to just start taking it.

[190] People who wanted it before, recreationally probably got it.

[191] Yeah, exactly.

[192] People who use it as a medicine and felt criminalized for using it as a medicine.

[193] By the way, I'm not just saying that I think that not only can it work as a medicine in certain situations, I think what really struck me is that sometimes it's the only thing that can work.

[194] Give a couple of examples.

[195] This seizure disorder known as Dravese, D -R -A -V -E -T -S.

[196] So it's basically just seizures that are happening all the time for young children.

[197] Intractable, they're called.

[198] And there was a little girl who first captured my attention on this, because I wasn't that sold on it being a medicine.

[199] But she was a young girl named Charlotte Figgy.

[200] Well, let's be clear, a lot of people are worshipping it as a cure -all from like the 1900s.

[201] So there's a lot of bogus stuff you had to weed through.

[202] That's the challenge in so many areas.

[203] Yes, almost all of these things.

[204] I think it's one of the hardest parts.

[205] of my job, frankly, because people want to see black and white where they should rightly see gray.

[206] And the idea that, well, you said it was going to be a cure -all, a panacea for everything.

[207] It's not that.

[208] Therefore, it's useless.

[209] Well, that's not right either.

[210] So to be nuanced in this area is challenging.

[211] And you kind of know you're doing it right as a reporter if people on all these different sides are throwing barbs at you.

[212] If they all hate you, I think you're on to something.

[213] I got it.

[214] It's like counterintuitive.

[215] It used to be that you'd think, like, if you get consensus that you were on to something.

[216] But actually, I think it's the opposite now.

[217] Yeah.

[218] Yeah, you've drawn the ire of all these different people.

[219] You must be doing something, right, you know.

[220] But the young girl, sorry.

[221] The young girl, she had tried seven different generations of anti -epileptic medications.

[222] Kepra.

[223] Kepra.

[224] She had done medications that had been formulated in different ways for little kids.

[225] They'd even recommended a veterinary medication.

[226] Sure.

[227] But at the same time, still said cannabis was a no -no.

[228] So we're willing to try a medication for animals.

[229] Right.

[230] But then her mom in Colorado Springs, which, by the way, is a pretty conservative area.

[231] Parents had never used cannabis, they told me. She formulated it in her own kitchen.

[232] So just took the cannabis plant, turned it into an oil, squirted it onto her daughter's mouth, and it helped with their seizures.

[233] She went from 300 seizures a week to about, yeah, can you imagine?

[234] Do you know, I've remind you, Monica has epilepsy.

[235] I've had two seizures.

[236] Noturnal.

[237] Yeah, I'm a nocturnal animal.

[238] I've had two nocturnal seizures.

[239] I'm on Kepra.

[240] Gotcha.

[241] Was the most recent one a while ago?

[242] 20 and 2019.

[243] They were a year apart.

[244] Immediately before the pandemic.

[245] Yes, right before the pandemic, and then I got on the medication.

[246] Yeah, maybe I'm just sensitive.

[247] Clairvoyant.

[248] They probably are.

[249] Did you have an aura, though?

[250] Did you have something before the actual seizure that gave you some sense?

[251] I don't think so because I'm...

[252] People sometimes may see a visual thing where they see sparkles in front of their eyes.

[253] Sometimes they may have a strange taste in their mouth.

[254] That's a common one.

[255] You taste metal in the back of your mouth.

[256] Oh, God, I'm going to be so hyperalore.

[257] Sorry.

[258] It didn't mean to...

[259] No, they were both.

[260] night so I don't know what anything was and I was with friends the first time I didn't know what it was I just woke up like at four so disoriented and in a ton of pain and I had peed in the bed I know you want me to I'm proud of you for keeping that in he's a doctor he's seen it all I had urinated in the bed nocturnal emission of the urinary type that's not common for me so I thought what's going on I went to the doctor the next morning they did a urinalysis and then they were like oh you're kidding are fine, everything's fine, you're fine.

[261] And I was like, well, okay, I guess.

[262] And they gave me a steroid shot for like the pain.

[263] That was it.

[264] And then a year later, did you get a scan of your brain?

[265] No. They didn't even begin to think this could be neurological.

[266] They were just like, oh, something weird.

[267] You laughed in there.

[268] Yeah, she drank too much.

[269] Probably.

[270] Peeped the bed last time.

[271] See it a thousand times a week.

[272] I was like, I did.

[273] But then the second one, and this is crazy.

[274] I was on this date, a first date, and of course I bring up that I had peed in the bed a year ago on a first date.

[275] I go all in.

[276] And he said, I don't mean to scare you, but it kind of sounds like you had a seizure because he himself had had a seizure.

[277] And I had never heard that or thought of it.

[278] So I was like, huh, weird.

[279] And I asked my doctor, I said, hey, that thing that happened a year ago, could that have been a seizure?

[280] And she said, there's no way for us to know at this point.

[281] A week later, I was with Kristen and two of our other friends in New York.

[282] And I had one.

[283] So they saw it.

[284] They were sharing a bed, thank God.

[285] Yeah.

[286] Got it.

[287] Thank God.

[288] They were cutting costs.

[289] Two to a Bad.

[290] A bunch of millionaires still saving money.

[291] You've got to applaud it.

[292] Seizure prophylaxis.

[293] She was fortunate and then they observed the whole thing and I went to the hospital.

[294] Then it was like, that's what's happening.

[295] And did they scan you then?

[296] Then they did.

[297] And everything's fine.

[298] Oh, okay.

[299] I had peed the bed too, but it was alcoholism.

[300] If I peed the bed again, it's probably that.

[301] Is that on your list of topics?

[302] Peeing the bed?

[303] I just wanted to tell you that we both feed the bed and invite you to share a similar experience.

[304] I mean, I definitely feed the bed as well.

[305] I think I was like two years old.

[306] But 300 a week, that's...

[307] That was crazy.

[308] And by the way, if your child is having 300 seizures a week, I have to imagine you are absolutely open to anything.

[309] Right, that was the thing.

[310] So, you know, she would put this baby in the baby Bjorn and just feel her seizing all the time.

[311] Can you imagine?

[312] And then they try these medications, and then they're told the medications can be cardiotoxic.

[313] They're so powerful they could actually stop her hurt.

[314] So it's terrible, terrible choices for a mom.

[315] Are they muting out neural activity of certain areas?

[316] potentially shutting down your parasympathetic.

[317] They're basically stunting all these pathways in your body.

[318] That's how they work.

[319] And that could have an impact on the heart as well.

[320] So she tries CBD oil.

[321] And she says, an hour goes by, five hours go by, a day goes by, and Charlotte does not have a seizure.

[322] She has to be crying at that point with gratitude.

[323] Yeah.

[324] And also living with this sort of guilt still, that this is a substance that shouldn't be used by a child certainly and was very reluctant to talk about it, but then she did.

[325] And it made a huge difference.

[326] There's a product called Charlotte's Web.

[327] Have you ever heard of this?

[328] It's a cannabis product.

[329] Comes out of Colorado.

[330] It's named after this girl.

[331] Charlotte Figgy.

[332] That's how it started.

[333] Stanley Brothers.

[334] And being sued by the publishers of Charlotte's Web, but hopefully they'll be victorious.

[335] Yeah, I think even the publisher of Charlotte's Webb would be on board on this one.

[336] Yeah, I hope so.

[337] Helping a lot of kids.

[338] Oh, man. Yeah, so that's the medical use.

[339] There are numerous ones that have been documented in a legitimate.

[340] Now, what are the more social outcomes, and have you even looked at kind of the broad data?

[341] One of the things that's been observed that I'm aware of is where marijuana is legalized alcohol consumption dips, and that's interesting.

[342] So in a harm reduction model, even if marijuana is not ultimately beneficial, but we weighed against maybe decreased alcohol consumption, which we know is bad for many reasons, you know, you've got to have this very nuanced approach to evaluating what's good or bad for society.

[343] And I'm really curious where we're at on all of it.

[344] So that's one positive thing that's been observed.

[345] There was really interesting data that came out of Colorado initially looking at opioid use specifically.

[346] And they found that opioid consumption went down.

[347] That is wow, huh?

[348] Part of it, I think, has to do with the fact that people do use marijuana for pain.

[349] You were getting this alternative to opioids because there weren't a lot of opioid alternatives.

[350] We've done seven documentaries on this.

[351] The last one we did was specifically looking at the use of cannabis and seniors.

[352] And it was really for what I sort of called the triad of.

[353] aging.

[354] So you're older and you're fine.

[355] You're healthy.

[356] But the three things that seniors complain about the most, sleep problems, generalized aches and pains, and mood.

[357] So oftentimes, because we live in such a medicalized society, you might be prescribed pain medications, antidepressants, and Ambien.

[358] My dad, who was 80 years old, was prescribed Ambien.

[359] Oh, boy.

[360] Terrible drug.

[361] Do you operate the farm tractor?

[362] No, but it's so scary to take Ambien.

[363] Yeah, it's not a good one.

[364] I'm going to go out on a limb.

[365] He fell and falls are a huge problem.

[366] How about the fact that it was never studied on women and come to find out it's twice as potent in women for whatever reason?

[367] I mean, the idea of how we run trials for both women and children in this country.

[368] But the idea that cannabis could be used for the nuisances of aging is really interesting.

[369] Well, in this case, kind of a cure -all, actually.

[370] Yeah, I mean, people weren't reporting much higher quality of life scores.

[371] I spent a fair amount of time in Europe looking at how they're using cannabis in different places in Europe.

[372] And what is interesting in Israel, for example, they are looking at the, use of cannabis for what they call behavioral abnormalities associated with dementia.

[373] So people who get dementia oftentimes have serious behavioral problems.

[374] They wander.

[375] They may sometimes become violent.

[376] They get scared.

[377] The option a lot of times is antipsychotic drugs, which basically sort of zomify people.

[378] They have good data now using cannabis for that.

[379] So there's all these different things that are coming about.

[380] And to your point earlier, we're behind on this.

[381] Israel's probably the world leader on this.

[382] Obviously other countries, the Netherlands, they've been doing a lot of of research for some time because I've had such wide use.

[383] But we're starting to see the benefits, I think of it in ways that we had not seen before.

[384] And it's not just an alternative for some of these conditions.

[385] For some people, it's the only thing that really works.

[386] And we have a really arbitrary hierarchy with what's right or wrong to take.

[387] So an antidepressant, an SSRI inhibitor designed in a lab is somehow preferable to marijuana.

[388] And I'm not team marijuana.

[389] I also think it gets a little nauseating all the nature cure result.

[390] But it is just interesting look at.

[391] I don't think it was illegal in the first place.

[392] Coming out of prohibition, I think, frankly, just culturally, they needed another target.

[393] And I'm saying this in part because when you look at the history of that time frame and you look at the data around cannabis, it wasn't that they said this is problematic.

[394] What they said was we don't have enough data to actually render a decision one way or the other.

[395] So let's just classify it, schedule it in this case, as a Schedule one substance.

[396] It also correlated nicely with all the government's known nuisances.

[397] So you're beat poets, black folks.

[398] I was going to say, is it a racist thing, perhaps?

[399] Hippies, anti -war movements.

[400] Oh, they're really sown something out there.

[401] Oh, that sounded like a scream.

[402] Or something.

[403] It's like, I hate cats.

[404] I was like, Sanjay has a weird ring on his phone.

[405] You notice that I keep going back and forth between marijuana and cannabis.

[406] But marijuana itself is considered a maturative term.

[407] That was designed to sort of diminish it even further.

[408] Or devil's cabbage.

[409] Yes, exactly.

[410] The well -known.

[411] But cannabis as an actual scientific term is what scientists will often refer to it as because they think of it as a compound that can be medicinal.

[412] A rebrand.

[413] A rebrand, yes.

[414] Of course, we called it weed for the documentary, so I don't think we were doing anybody any favors.

[415] You should have just called it grass.

[416] So I'm conflicted.

[417] I kind of have to force myself to look at it in a harm reduction way because I think people are going to use stuff.

[418] I also think there's kind of some pandemic anxiety, I think it over -indexes in some groups, and it really pairs up nicely with groups that are inheriting a lot of generational trauma.

[419] So I think it's really useful.

[420] And also, I don't think people should be dodging reality at all times with external substances.

[421] So I'm conflicted.

[422] I don't think it's an overall great arc for everyone to be medicated on cannabis.

[423] So it takes a very, very precise and nuanced evaluation of it.

[424] I agree with you on that.

[425] We run the risk of creating the same problem of over -medicalizing like we have with pharmaceuticals.

[426] I will say this, though, that after 10 years of really looking into this, we all carry these CB1 and CB2 receptors in our bodies.

[427] The canniboid.

[428] Yeah, the canadabinoid receptors.

[429] That's a lot of syllables.

[430] You have it in your brain, you have it in your gut, people who have inflammatory bowel disease, for example.

[431] We'll sometimes find tremendous relief with cannabis.

[432] I think as a species, we cohabitated and co -evolve with this plant.

[433] So for most of our existence, we probably had constant activation of these receptors in our bodies.

[434] Over time, we started to lose that, especially as a suburb.

[435] became increasingly maligned.

[436] So the idea that you would stimulate what are natural receptors in your body, as humans did for most of our existence, I don't know what that means overall, but I think it's interesting.

[437] So to your question, are we over -medicalizing, or are we actually creating a homeostasis in our bodies that did exist?

[438] If you talk to folks in Israel, who again have been doing this sort of work for a long time, and you ask them a simple question, how does this work?

[439] Canis, why would it relieve pain?

[440] An opioid, we know why it relieves pain.

[441] Targets these mu receptors, things like that.

[442] blocks receptors.

[443] Here, the idea that you create a homeostasis and you allow the body to sort of heal itself in some ways, I think is interesting.

[444] The body sleeps better.

[445] It experiences less pain.

[446] It experiences less mood abnormalities, whatever it might be.

[447] He likened it to sort of a flywheel.

[448] You know, in a flywheel, you get it going, and then it pretty much goes.

[449] You know, you give it a little tap every now and then, but it's going to go.

[450] Could cannabis sort of be doing that for our bodies?

[451] That's what they think.

[452] Like creating a positive inertia.

[453] By stimulating receptors that we all have in our bodies.

[454] these receptors exist for what?

[455] We do create a compound in our body known as anandamide, which is probably the closest thing to cannabis that stimulates these receptors, but we only make a certain amount of that.

[456] And so the idea that you'd need to supplement as you get older, because you make less of it, it's like anything else.

[457] Could you think of this like another hormone almost?

[458] I supplement my hormones.

[459] Do you?

[460] Well, yes.

[461] I'm open to criticism.

[462] No, but yeah, testosterone.

[463] Did you get your levels checked?

[464] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[465] And then I, They adjusted them.

[466] They were low.

[467] They were low.

[468] And specifically, my free testosterone was really low.

[469] Not my overall was moderately low, but my available testosterone was quite low.

[470] And I started taking six years ago and absolutely love it.

[471] What did you experience?

[472] Most significantly, in this podcast is bizarrely a product of it.

[473] I had had a movie, came out, didn't open well.

[474] I was in maybe like a three or four month kind of depression over that, a reevaluation.

[475] What am I doing?

[476] And I was mostly focused on, I think I'm done.

[477] I think I'm going to retire.

[478] I think this was a fun ride, and I think I'm going to, I don't know, I'll write, I'll do something.

[479] Went on testosterone, and within six months of that, I was on fire to work.

[480] I was way more engaged with my hobbies.

[481] If you understand testosterone, you read a lot about it.

[482] It is so associated with maleness in the male hormone, but of course, women have it too.

[483] But mostly it's the get up and go do the thing that will get you status hormone is what it really is.

[484] So that could be aggression if you're in a very aggressive society where status is determined by aggression.

[485] If it were a status derived from philanthropy, you'd become the most philanthropic person.

[486] So it is the hormone that makes you chase whatever thing.

[487] So for me, it brought me back to maybe my 30 -year -old appetite for my hobbies and work.

[488] Wow.

[489] And then additionally, yeah, I put on more muscle mass. I burn fat more.

[490] I love it.

[491] Were there any downsides?

[492] Yeah, initially and I think I was interviewing Andrew Huberman and he made a suggestion so yeah there's some pretty predictable side effects right you can get water retention I have that a lot I didn't have any skin stuff that you can have and he basically just said split your dose and just do it more often so you're not getting these peaks and valleys of it if you can kind of just stabilize it you actually won't have any of those side effects and I changed to that a few years ago and yeah now I would have no idea there's zero side effects over time your testicles get smaller because they're not producing testosterone anymore.

[493] So if I was very vain about my testicle size, maybe I would.

[494] I would call that a big doubt.

[495] You could tell them the gym who's using testosterone, right?

[496] Just check everyone's testicles.

[497] Do you have a stance on it?

[498] Are you anti or four or pro?

[499] Well, I just had my levels checked.

[500] And they were normal, but my D -H -EA level was a little low.

[501] You probably had that checked as well.

[502] Yeah, I supplement.

[503] And it's interesting, the reason I had it checked was mostly for my brain.

[504] Is this a result of doing your Alzheimer's piece?

[505] Yes.

[506] I went through an entire preventive neurology.

[507] Is it?

[508] In Boca Raton?

[509] Yeah.

[510] Richard Isaacson is the guy who did this.

[511] And I got to tell you, even as a brain guy myself, it was super fascinating.

[512] I think what really jumped out at me is, first of all, because there's not a biomarker for brain health.

[513] I think if you look at heart health, you can say cholesterol, blood pressure, calcium score, ejection fraction, all these things.

[514] With brain health, the joke goes, if you ask 10 neurologists to define a healthy brain, you'll get 11 answers, you know.

[515] Oh, boy.

[516] That's a very good joke.

[517] It is, but it's also scary.

[518] I know.

[519] Because people don't really know.

[520] But the idea that we now are very comfortable saying we can prevent, predict, and treat heart disease.

[521] And that came about over the last 60, 70 years.

[522] We're sort of getting to that point with brain health now, where even though we can't say here is the test that definitively says whether your brain health is good or bad, we know that we can predict, prevent, and treat brain problems.

[523] And one of the things that Richard really pointed out to me was a simple equation of like doing a dexas scan of your body and seeing how much bone, how much muscle, and how much fat you have in your body.

[524] and where that stuff is located is highly predictive of future dementia.

[525] Oh, wow.

[526] And so someone like me, I work out every day, but I do not put on a lot of muscle.

[527] And one of the most challenging things for me is to put on skeletal muscle.

[528] So your core, you would get to the point where a preventive neurologist would say, in order for your brain health, you need to put on more muscle.

[529] Part of it might be supplementing with DHEA in my case.

[530] Another thing might be is I do a lot of hikes with my dogs, and now I always wear a rucksack when I do that.

[531] Yeah, there you go.

[532] A rucksack, leading to brain health.

[533] That's not what I would have expected.

[534] No. Well, if you read Outlive?

[535] Yes.

[536] And he's big on that.

[537] Yes, it's everything.

[538] And so I read the book.

[539] I guess I'm almost all in on it.

[540] Am I writing that?

[541] This is a bit of a paradigm shift where we weren't looking at the brain as the result of your metabolic health.

[542] Right.

[543] We were kind of looking at it and going like, oh, there's this blood brain barrier and it's this own thing and maybe what you eat.

[544] You know, like we love to think of it as so separated.

[545] We always have.

[546] There's your brain and then there's almost the rest of your body.

[547] And it's got a barrier between it and the rest.

[548] We failed to recognize how a part of a system it is, and that really your metabolic health is the greatest predictor of your mental health and your brain health.

[549] The most evidence behind brain health is exactly that.

[550] How long has this been?

[551] To me, that felt like, oh, my God, what a revelation.

[552] I'm only like a year and a half into thinking that way.

[553] When I started my neurosurgery training, I finished in 2000, even at that time, the idea that you could create new brain cells.

[554] That was sort of considered very fringe thinking.

[555] We learned in biology when we went to.

[556] college, that the brain cells didn't go through mitosis, right?

[557] They were somatic cells, and then there were these gray cells that never went through mitosis.

[558] And maybe that's not true?

[559] We can create new brain cells throughout our entire lives.

[560] Wow.

[561] So I think I'm learning that this minute still.

[562] Oh, wow.

[563] This is huge.

[564] This idea of neurogenesis.

[565] It's a relatively new construct, but I think that it's pretty widely accepted.

[566] We started to see this in animal studies initially, started to see it only in certain areas of the brain, including the hippocampus, which is responsible for memory, short -term memory, at least.

[567] And I think part of the issue was we didn't ever look at the healthy brain.

[568] We only looked at the brain when there was a problem, when there was a tumor, and there's trauma, something like that.

[569] And we knew brains, they had a fair amount of plasticity, so they could sort of recreate pathways.

[570] But the idea that you could actually create new brain cells is still a relatively new way of thinking about this.

[571] One of the most evidence -proven ways to do that was through physical activity.

[572] Whoa.

[573] It was even a specific kind of physical activity.

[574] This was interesting because when you work out really intensely, you can create a lot of what is called BDNF, brain -derived neurotrophic factor.

[575] That's like the miracle growth for your brain.

[576] It's so sexy when you say these words.

[577] Yeah, I love that.

[578] Like, they just roll right off your tongue.

[579] You guys like this stuff.

[580] Oh, we do.

[581] I know.

[582] That's why I like talk to you guys.

[583] We're brain purves.

[584] So almost everyone we talk to it is like.

[585] Okay, BDNF.

[586] Brain -derived neurotrophic factor, kind of like miracle growth for the brain.

[587] You can't eat it.

[588] You can't inject it.

[589] You have to make it.

[590] best way to make it is through activity.

[591] And here's the thing.

[592] Interesting little nuance is that when you're intensely active, you're also making a lot of cortisol.

[593] The cortisol can be a bit inhibitory to the BDNF, as was explained to me. So the best type of activity for your brain is probably brisk activity without creating too much cortisol.

[594] So blasts of short duration?

[595] Short duration or just even longer duration, but less intense, brisk walking, for example.

[596] Okay.

[597] Everything I'm reading now is like you should really be building in some really elevated heart rate blasts within there to increase your max VO.

[598] Very important for overall metabolic health, very important for heart disease.

[599] There's some nuances with the brain.

[600] That's what's sort of interesting.

[601] I think the general thinking was what's good for the heart's good for the brain.

[602] And it's a general rule.

[603] I think that's right.

[604] But when it comes to activity, brisker activity versus intense might be better for the brain.

[605] The way we eat, you know, everyone knows sugar is bad for you.

[606] When your body consumes too much energy in the form of sugar, your body will store it.

[607] That's considered very evolutionary.

[608] When the brain sees too much sugar, the receptors are much more narrow.

[609] So they'll accept a certain amount of blood glucose.

[610] And after that, they'll just sort of turn off.

[611] So you could be stuffing your body and starving your brain at the same time, which I think is really interesting.

[612] Like it's protecting itself.

[613] It's protecting itself from a very high blood sugar.

[614] And there's these little things about the brain that we're learning that are different.

[615] On some level, it's really intuitive.

[616] Like when you just think of your heart in your cardiovascular system is a hydraulic system with fluid running through it.

[617] And you think of increasing the pressure at times and really forcing all of that fluid to move and circulate.

[618] There's something very intuitive about that preventing buildup and blockage and all these things.

[619] It's interesting that you don't just intuitively apply that to your brain to, I guess because the way it's been positioned as this other thing that's not hooked to the rest of everything.

[620] It's always been seen as something different.

[621] But this amyoid build up that Alzheimer's patients seem to exhibit in fMRI scans, could we think of that amyloid as similar to any other kind of plaque you'd be building up in your cardiovascular system?

[622] It appears to be a remnant of something.

[623] So to the extent that coronary artery plaques, for example, are reflective or remnants of cardiac disease.

[624] I think there's a similarity.

[625] What is different here is that there are people who have a lot of amyloid plaque in their brain and have no symptoms.

[626] Oh.

[627] If you had a lot of plaque to the point of blockages, for example, on your corner, you're most likely going to have symptoms.

[628] Unless you've developed so many ancillary blood flow.

[629] Workerounds.

[630] Exactly.

[631] So, we don't know still, if you have a lot of plaque and don't have symptoms, I think that suggested that plaque is not the whole story here.

[632] Maybe it's part of the story.

[633] And so many of the drugs that were worked on for a long time were just designed to get rid of plaque.

[634] God, it's so hard to know, right?

[635] Is plaque a symptom of an underlying thing that's really what we need?

[636] to attack.

[637] Some people have suggested it might even be associated with brain infections.

[638] So the plaque actually helped prevent or protect the brain against infections earlier in life maybe.

[639] Yeah, maybe corridor off an infection or surround or encapsulate.

[640] Or whatever it might do.

[641] Or it's just some sort of remnant of something that happened in the brain.

[642] It could be an indication of the aftermath of something as opposed to being predictive.

[643] And even when you took away the plaque, like they have these great drugs, these monoclon landobodies, which are good at, and reducing the amount of plaque, but so -so, no. Oh, interesting.

[644] 27 % sort of slowing of cognitive decline, which is better than what we've seen before.

[645] And what Isaacson and these other preventive neurologists, and there's not many of them in the country, they believe that probably 40 to 50 % of all dementias are preventable.

[646] What?

[647] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[648] What's up, guys?

[649] This your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back.

[650] with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest okay every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation and I don't mean just friends I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox the list goes on so follow watch and listen to Baby this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast We've all been there turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains debilitating body aches sudden fever and strange rashes.

[651] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[652] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[653] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you, about my podcast.

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[655] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[656] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[657] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[658] Okay, so we are into your special that's coming up, the last Alzheimer's patient.

[659] Yes.

[660] What happened when you went?

[661] What was the whole thing?

[662] I got to tell you, it was a bit scary.

[663] You guys should do it.

[664] You should do a podcast.

[665] I am scared.

[666] You won't even do the brain scan.

[667] Or rather the body.

[668] scan.

[669] I did the full body scan recently, and Monica's like, I don't think I want to know.

[670] My grandpa just died and he had dementia.

[671] And so I am hyper aware that I might get it.

[672] If I can prevent it, I want to.

[673] Yeah.

[674] And I think, again, up until recently, there wasn't the belief that you could.

[675] Just like we thought about heart disease 60, 70 years ago, either you're going to get or you're not.

[676] There's not much you can do.

[677] That's how we've thought about the brain.

[678] There's a lot you can do.

[679] I think what is interesting, when I went for it, the variety of testing.

[680] So I did do a sort of Poor man's dexas scan to get an idea of how much visceral fat.

[681] But I also went through very sophisticated cognitive testing.

[682] So to give you an example of a few of the things, draw a three -dimensional cube right now.

[683] Draw a clock that says the time is 1110.

[684] I'm going to give you 30 words to remember now.

[685] And in five minutes, I'm going to ask you to repeat as many of those as you can.

[686] Can I tell you something shallow and terrible about myself?

[687] I took such pleasure in watching you get some of those questions wrong.

[688] Like you're working on a little iPad and you're hitting these buttons.

[689] and sometimes there's a red axe.

[690] And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad.

[691] Sanjay's fallible.

[692] Well, I was definitely anxious.

[693] I get nervous.

[694] I'm a nervous test taker.

[695] I was comforted that you don't get every question right on every test you take.

[696] It was nice.

[697] Are you playing connections?

[698] I'm nervous now.

[699] No, I get nervous before everything.

[700] Do you guys get nervous?

[701] Yeah, I do.

[702] You don't get nervous.

[703] It's context dependent for sure.

[704] When I interviewed David Letterman, my idol of my whole childhood, yeah, I'm nervous.

[705] Because you're afraid you might not leave a good impression?

[706] The value I have placed on what his approval would mean to me is such heightened stakes that I can't help but...

[707] You want him to like you.

[708] Want that so bad.

[709] He is a father in that way.

[710] Here's somebody I've worshipped.

[711] If he even alludes to the fact that I'm doing a good job or I'm all right, that's going to be incredible.

[712] That's really sweet, actually.

[713] Yeah, we should all...

[714] Yeah, care.

[715] Yeah.

[716] I mean, the fact that you pointed out that I got those questions wrong, wrong is going to haunt me now for the entire play right now.

[717] It made me know you aren't really nitpicking on that edit.

[718] Because if you were looking over, you're like, show the ones I got right.

[719] No, but here's a little insight that I learned about myself with this cognitive testing.

[720] So the words, you got 30 words to remember.

[721] Now, it's not just how many words you remember.

[722] It's how quickly you remember them.

[723] Oh.

[724] And which are the words did you remember?

[725] Did you gravitate away from certain words?

[726] I gravitated away from words with bees and d's in them.

[727] Whoa.

[728] I never realized this about myself.

[729] And first thing, Richard, asks me when he sees me. He goes, do you count on your fingers?

[730] And I said, yeah, I've always count on my fingers.

[731] I do this.

[732] He goes, anyone ever tell you that you probably have dyslexia?

[733] What?

[734] I'm about to be 55 years old.

[735] No one's ever told me this.

[736] Welcome to the club, do you do this?

[737] Do you do the bees and dees?

[738] I'm hardcore dyslexic.

[739] Really?

[740] Oh, you didn't learn to redo fifth grade.

[741] Interesting.

[742] So you knew that early on.

[743] I did.

[744] You developed strategies, presumably to address it.

[745] I don't want to get distracted by my story, but I don't think so.

[746] I think one thing it's like you just honestly you consume you consume you're in the dark you're in the dark you're in the dark and then all of a sudden the overall pattern just emerges and somehow you've now memorized I don't think I ever learned anything phonetically I just think over time I memorized the full shape of every single word virtually and yeah it just kind of happens I don't know that any technique I was using in 1984 really was the solution other than just repetition and an interest in writing or flip the script where now I'm in charge of creating the words that was an interesting thing where I wanted to write, so now I was incentivized to learn them, whereas before I wasn't, but it magically happened.

[747] I don't know how.

[748] I'm not sure it was from some technique they knew about in the 80s.

[749] It would be interesting if you took this test now to see if you've just overcome that.

[750] I observe it constantly, though.

[751] Numbers, you know, I still have lots of jumbling and my pronunciation's pretty rough, I think, compared to my vocabular.

[752] The B and D thing, that's interesting.

[753] I still go like this.

[754] Wow.

[755] I still do this.

[756] I'm holding up a B and a D in my hand.

[757] I'll just quickly check myself.

[758] Yeah, you definitely have.

[759] Like, which direction should it be pointing?

[760] The circle, is that what you're saying?

[761] So I got the bat and the ball, and then the opposite of the bat and the ball.

[762] Your right hand is a, and look, that's even hard for me to say really quickly.

[763] Me too.

[764] That's a D. And your left hand makes a B. Audience, if you put your first finger and your thumb together and the remaining three fingers up in the air, that's what we're talking about.

[765] Yeah.

[766] By the way, it works well at dinner parties, too, because bread drinks.

[767] Oh, I like that.

[768] You've got a whole life built around this.

[769] This is the first I've ever seen of me. I like that.

[770] Is that my bread or is that the guy next to his bread?

[771] Now you know.

[772] But what I would argue, why I'm quick to agree with this very light diagnosis of dyslexia for you.

[773] That's not so intense.

[774] When I got labeled dyslexic at UCLA, when I had to go back and get re, you know, to get extra time on tests and stuff, you have to go through a very long eight -week evaluation thing.

[775] And once I did that, it was very comprehensive and very obvious.

[776] One other element I would say supports this diagnosis is I think in place of, being able to get information from the written word, you develop a very, very, very good memory for auditory stuff.

[777] Your recall for words becomes really strong, and your ability to consume and digest and hold on to information you've heard gets very high.

[778] And I think you have that.

[779] That seems very clear to me that you have that.

[780] I think so.

[781] I think my enunciation is good.

[782] I'm older than you are, but once I started typing, I think it obviated a lot of the problem as well, because I just knew where B &D was on the keyboard.

[783] Yeah.

[784] And I'd have to think about it each time.

[785] But I don't write freestyle very much at all.

[786] Okay.

[787] Do you?

[788] Yeah, every morning I write with my left hand.

[789] You don't find it challenging.

[790] I do.

[791] I hate it.

[792] But I have to journal.

[793] It's like my commitment.

[794] But free writing as opposed to just typing.

[795] Correct.

[796] It's probably a very good exercise.

[797] It probably is, yeah.

[798] And I've been doing it for 20 years.

[799] It probably helps with spelling and all of this stuff.

[800] I've become such a technophile with that because now I got everything set to the maximum parameters.

[801] It'll fill in the words for me. Yeah.

[802] It'll fix the spellings for me right away.

[803] So it's one step short of just thinking it and having it right, which is next, I think.

[804] Yeah, it's very close.

[805] Okay.

[806] So when you did this barrage of tests, you discovered perhaps your doesn't like that's an interesting outcome and then what other things.

[807] Because if I were you, I would go into it pretty optimistic.

[808] You've lived a very healthy life and you exercise a lot.

[809] Yeah.

[810] If you think of our health care system as a sick care system, which I think it is, in that case, I'm doing pretty well because I'm not sick.

[811] 95 % of doctors would probably look at all my results and say, you're fine.

[812] There's nothing to do here.

[813] But I think in the spirit of prevention, to the extent that it's reasonable, you know, you're not going to go crazy in terms of costs, but there were several places that I could be optimized.

[814] I eat very healthy, but my omega three to my omega -6 ratio is not very good.

[815] I have, and points in my life have taken fish oil, but then have become less sort of enthralled by the data, less compelled by it.

[816] I know this supplements.

[817] But my doc is like, you have to flip that ratio, the omega -3 to omega -6 ratio.

[818] And here's the data to show you why that's going to be beneficial.

[819] DHEA, wearing a rucksack.

[820] There's another thing, the longest nerves in your body are the ones that go to your feet.

[821] Most people do not pay any attention to their feet and how their feet move.

[822] You wear shoes.

[823] I got these shoes on, which by the way, my daughter helped design these shoes.

[824] Oh, that's nice.

[825] They're from here in L .A., Joe Jaskerval.

[826] So he suggested toe spacers for me. Wear toe spacers 10 minutes a day, which will really help activate these nerves, the longest nerves in your body that go to your feet.

[827] Wow.

[828] So these are not expensive things to do.

[829] Yeah, you could cram toilet paper in there.

[830] You had to in a pinch.

[831] And the thing is that we wouldn't be doing the documentary unless there was data behind these recommendations.

[832] These aren't these huge placebo -controlled randomized decades -long study.

[833] It's very hard to do those.

[834] But I think the data's getting really good in terms of what we can do to prevent dementia.

[835] So my grandfather had it.

[836] Kind of feels like you're wearing it around your neck your whole life.

[837] Yeah, exactly.

[838] I tested genetically for it.

[839] There's APOE3 or APOE4.

[840] You should probably get that done.

[841] I know.

[842] That's a big ATIA marker.

[843] He's obsessed with that.

[844] It's good to know.

[845] I mean, some people don't want to know.

[846] Right.

[847] And I think the reason they didn't want to know was because the second part of that question was, what do I do about it?

[848] And now I think there's something you can do about it.

[849] And that's a lot of what we wanted to show.

[850] Lifestyle changes can make a difference.

[851] Can you quickly tell me, so yeah, the grandmother on Bennett Street, off a Merriman, Alzheimer's, young age, who's a teacher at Stevenson?

[852] Yes.

[853] What is the difference between Alzheimer's and dementia?

[854] Alzheimer's is a type of dementia.

[855] So you could get dementia, but it not be Alzheimer's.

[856] Correct.

[857] There's Louis Body dementia.

[858] That was something that Robin Williams had.

[859] There is frontal temporal dementia, which is what I think Bruce Willis is dealing with.

[860] Okay.

[861] Where he's lost his ability to speak.

[862] So it can present in different ways.

[863] Ted Turner has Louis -Body dementia.

[864] So Alzheimer's the most common, but there are other types.

[865] There's many.

[866] In the doc, I learned 6 .9 million Americans have Alzheimer's.

[867] Yeah.

[868] I mean, that's a tremendous amount of people.

[869] Expected a double by the year 2050.

[870] Why more?

[871] Because of the aging population right now.

[872] Because we're aging.

[873] It's like, what's happening?

[874] Yeah.

[875] Something new in the water.

[876] Okay, yeah.

[877] They expect 150 million people around the world to have it by 2050.

[878] It's going to be one of the most common neurodegenerative disorders that we deal with, which is why I think there's so much interest now in saying, hey, look, beyond the meds, which there have been a couple that have been more promising over the last 14, 15 years.

[879] Did you cover this?

[880] I just saw something really fascinating.

[881] I guess he is a surgeon by training, but he uses ultrasound to stimulate the blood -brain barrier so that the people taking that medicine, which generally you have to take it for like 30 days to get the full dose.

[882] You can get the full dose because it opens up the blood -brain barrier for a couple hours.

[883] Yeah, you're talking about focused ultrasound.

[884] Neil Cassell?

[885] Oh, that rings a bell.

[886] He's a neurosurgeon and he runs the Focus Ultrasound Foundation.

[887] I've been very interested in this.

[888] They use it initially to try and do to the brain what deep brain stimulation would do, except without an operation.

[889] You're just using sound waves.

[890] And then, just like you said, they were using it to basically disrupt for a period of time, the blood brain barrier, which might allow medicines in, and according to Neal, might also let some plaque out.

[891] Interesting.

[892] So it could have sort of a dual benefit for Alzheimer's.

[893] I mean, this is where it's getting crazy sci -fi.

[894] This guy's shooting an invisible sound wave.

[895] It's opening up this invisible barrier.

[896] Yeah.

[897] A bunch of medicine goes out.

[898] I mean, it's kind of crazy.

[899] It's wild.

[900] But it's very efficient.

[901] for things like essential tremor and even Parkinson's.

[902] Yes, oh my God, that was the thing I watched.

[903] Maybe there was a 60 minutes on this guy.

[904] That may have been.

[905] There was a man that came in that had tremors so bad, Monica.

[906] He couldn't fill out the paperwork.

[907] They could barely get the head ring on him to put him inside of the MRI machine.

[908] The MRI because he has to be held perfectly still so he can hit the exact region of the brain.

[909] This guy is so overcome with these tremors.

[910] He can't do anything.

[911] Couldn't lift a glass of water up.

[912] Goes into the machine.

[913] They take the ring off him And he starts crying.

[914] He looks at his hands and they're completely still.

[915] It's amazing how quickly that works.

[916] Wow.

[917] I mean, that was one of the most powerful things I've ever seen.

[918] You find these areas of the brain and with Parkinson's or with essential tremor, which is what I think that patient had.

[919] You're basically over stimulating certain pathways.

[920] So, you know, you imagine, like, if you're trying to hold your hand really tight, you'll start to tremor.

[921] So you're basically loosening that up.

[922] We've done that with heat, done that with electricity, deep brain stimulation.

[923] And now they're doing it with sound.

[924] That is incredible.

[925] No incision.

[926] Although they do have to shave the hair.

[927] Worth it.

[928] Worth it.

[929] Her goes back.

[930] Okay, so in the Alzheimer's doc, you go to eight different states, you go coast to coast.

[931] I was curious, how does treatment and outcomes differ around the country?

[932] Let me ask this first.

[933] Are there areas that over index and under index in Alzheimer's regionally?

[934] It's very associated with age.

[935] Not obesity?

[936] Age is the biggest predictor right now.

[937] It's a good question about obesity.

[938] Again, Isaacson, If it's a metabolic condition at some level.

[939] There's clearly a relationship.

[940] Age is still the biggest predictor.

[941] But there's no question that maybe later in life, people who have metabolic dysfunction are going to be more likely to develop it.

[942] And he would even take it a step further to say that if you have metabolic issues specifically, that's going to be more associated with memory problems.

[943] Whereas other things might be more associated with judgment.

[944] Other things might be more associated with processing speed.

[945] So memory is what everyone pays attention to, but you can start to get slower at, processing.

[946] Yeah, I'd rather have my prefrontal cortex bang and then my hippocampus.

[947] Forget your name, but I can still think in executive function.

[948] Get rid of my memories.

[949] If it's an either or, I'd rather...

[950] What's the point, though, if you can't remember anything?

[951] Because you can't go to the store or manage your life without the prefrontal cortex working, but I could sit around and regale the past and then not be able to do anything.

[952] Well, I know your daughters and stuff.

[953] It's more than just regale.

[954] Don't bring that.

[955] It's always a Trump card.

[956] Everyone has.

[957] People are hit me with that in the sunscreen debate.

[958] my motorsports, they always trumped me with the daughters.

[959] Yeah, well.

[960] You know, I wanted to target my amygdala.

[961] That's what I really want.

[962] Just get that.

[963] If we got to throw one over the boat, let's get rid of that.

[964] Yeah, Mygdala is good, I think.

[965] Mine's in a constant state of flight or flight.

[966] You got a good emotional thermostat, I feel like.

[967] Over time, we've gotten better at regulating it, but I think it's an overactive area of the brain from the past.

[968] Okay, so it's mostly just age.

[969] So, obviously, South Florida is going to have the highest rate.

[970] South Florida is the highest.

[971] Boca, one of the reasons I think he's set up shop there is because he's that is where the patients are.

[972] Not to circumvent this metabolic issue, though.

[973] You know, it's funny, one of the things that he recommended and that he did himself was to actually use Manjaro for a while.

[974] He's not going to be in a long term, but he said to get his metabolic profile in quick order.

[975] To get it in the ratio that's optimal.

[976] There's not data on this yet.

[977] There's data using these types of medications for Alzheimer's.

[978] And by the way, earmark that, because that's my other big thing I want to talk to you about.

[979] The weight loss.

[980] Yeah.

[981] Because that's the one coming out later this year that I'm excited about.

[982] Yeah, but I think age is still the biggest predictor, but there's no question the developed world has higher rates of dementia than other parts of the world.

[983] A lot of it has to do with how we nourish ourselves, the foods that we're putting in our body, the physical activity, the paucity of that.

[984] But I think all that leading to these metabolic problems, that's very associated with that.

[985] I have to tell you, so I love the work that that doctor's doing, and I loved watching that.

[986] I got to say I was a, there's a woman in this doc, Chi -Chi, and what's really great about her is you interviewed her five years before it's a really nice comp for herself we get to actually see her five years later having gone through this very specific and then this differs from the other doctor that you did all the scans with but this woman who's showing some early signs of Alzheimer's when you first meet her she goes all in on this program that is a vegan diet it's a half hour to an hour of exercise a day and one hour of meditation a day and you interview her five years later and she is seemingly, at least from the edit, not just arrested it, which would have been a really great outcome five years ago, but beyond that, probably has improved.

[987] Yeah, that was the thing that we really saw.

[988] And it was five years.

[989] So we did have this real passage of time.

[990] When you have Alzheimer's and you're starting to already show signs of it, five years is significant, right?

[991] You're expecting to see a pretty big decline in five years.

[992] That's right.

[993] And she had her mom and her grandma who had both gone through this.

[994] Obviously, everyone's different, but you had some sense of how quickly they could decline.

[995] And they declined very, very fast.

[996] She went on this program.

[997] The first 20 weeks, she was essentially on a placebo.

[998] So she wasn't really on the program.

[999] And she objectively worsened.

[1000] What do we mean by objective?

[1001] So it was all these cognitive tests that we're talking about.

[1002] It was pretty sophisticated cognitive testing.

[1003] So you're looking at recall.

[1004] You're looking at executive functioning.

[1005] You're looking at processing speed.

[1006] All this stuff.

[1007] There's four tests.

[1008] And three of the four she got worse on.

[1009] The next 20 weeks, five months, she was on the program, which is exactly how you described at Dax.

[1010] And she improved.

[1011] So what is interesting is that from her life standpoint, she was no longer able to go out on a walk on her own, for example, five years ago.

[1012] They just wouldn't let her do that.

[1013] She'd constantly get lost.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] And now she goes out on walks every day by herself.

[1016] I spent time with her entire extended family.

[1017] She knew everybody's name.

[1018] She remembered their story.

[1019] She was talking about things from their past.

[1020] She wouldn't go to parties anymore because she would not be able to engage with people.

[1021] And now she's going and doing social gatherings again.

[1022] I'm triggered by the vegan part of it.

[1023] It's a lot to ask of people.

[1024] And there's just like religiosity surrounding veganism.

[1025] And I was vegan for a year.

[1026] So let me just say I've been down that path.

[1027] Dean Ornish, who's the guy that sort of oversaw this for Chi Chi.

[1028] And he started as a coronary guy?

[1029] He started as a coronary guy.

[1030] He's the first guy, I think, to get a FDA -approved program for reversing heart disease in the country.

[1031] And now he's focused his attention on the brain.

[1032] And so many of the strategies are the same.

[1033] Can you use some of the strategies to reverse heart disease like we were talking about for the brain?

[1034] And let's just say you did it intensively.

[1035] Just for proof of concept.

[1036] Can you actually see an objective benefit?

[1037] And I think what he has shown is yes, you can.

[1038] Now, can everyone do this?

[1039] Probably not.

[1040] You acknowledge that many members of the same program did not experience, either an arresting of the condition and or an improvement.

[1041] So what statistically are we looking at?

[1042] If you really looked at the people who stuck with the program consistently and did the highest dose of it, if you want to call it that, they had the most improvement.

[1043] It didn't help everybody, but it seemed to be less likely to help people who didn't have the higher dose.

[1044] This is why AA's hard to evaluate, right?

[1045] I was literally just about to say that.

[1046] It's the same as AA.

[1047] It's 55 things you're supposed to do, right?

[1048] So you go to meetings, well, how many means you go to work these 12 steps?

[1049] Do you work with a sponsor?

[1050] Do you sponsor somebody?

[1051] What is the actual - But the more engaged you are in all of those things?

[1052] Yeah, the more likely you are to be sober, for sure.

[1053] Yes, it's just the dosage is hard to evaluate.

[1054] But I also think going back to the basic conceit that, look, it doesn't make a difference.

[1055] Your brain is your brain.

[1056] It's just going to have this trajectory in life.

[1057] You're going to drain the cache of neurons.

[1058] you get older, if you do certain things, may drain it faster.

[1059] I think what these studies show is that that's not necessarily the case.

[1060] And if you're really, really serious about it, like, I don't want to get dementia.

[1061] My grandfather had it.

[1062] I saw what it did to him.

[1063] My grandfather and I were really close.

[1064] Then all of a sudden, he was the guy telling jokes that nobody else was in on.

[1065] And it was really heartbreaking to watch.

[1066] I don't want that to happen to me. Nobody wants it to happen to them.

[1067] I at least know in my back pocket now, if I want to be really serious about this, our bodies are so dynamic that within five months, I could change my body intensively so that I would dramatically reduce the chances that I get it.

[1068] And again, if you want to put a number on it, four to five out of ten people, 40 to 50 percent, can probably prevent their diagnosis of dementia later in life.

[1069] Not everybody, but those are pretty good odds.

[1070] They're damn good odds compared to anything else.

[1071] Let me ask you this.

[1072] This is kind of a global question about your job, which is you're endlessly investigating these very specific topics and you go all in on them and you learn everything and you must be inclined after each one to fully commit to whatever that thing was, right?

[1073] And is there space in time and how do you prioritize?

[1074] I'd imagine you start picking up all these obsessions along the way.

[1075] It would be hard not to.

[1076] That's a really good point.

[1077] And you meet such compelling people.

[1078] They're so passionate and they're almost proselytizing their particular research.

[1079] So I do end up adopting a lot of things.

[1080] I'm adopting a lot of the things I learned from this documentary.

[1081] It sounds like it.

[1082] Then it made me wonder, have you adopted previously?

[1083] Yes.

[1084] It was funny.

[1085] I was just looking at, in 22 years now, I've done 56 documentaries.

[1086] Wow.

[1087] Fuck, 56.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] Documentary slash specials.

[1090] And I think all of them have influenced me in some way.

[1091] I've also made really good friends with a lot of these researchers and scientists, people who I touch base with quite regularly about life and how their research is going.

[1092] That's the gift of your job.

[1093] That's the exact same gift of our job.

[1094] job.

[1095] To regularly meet people who have dedicated themselves to something and in pursued it with such passion, it's such a contagious thing to be around.

[1096] That's the hidden gift of it.

[1097] And you get to learn the why behind the what as podcasters.

[1098] The what anybody can get.

[1099] But the why, like, why is someone narcissistic?

[1100] You know, that's nice today.

[1101] That's what I heard.

[1102] Oh, you heard.

[1103] You heard.

[1104] Okay.

[1105] So excited.

[1106] Yeah.

[1107] Why does someone have good anxiety?

[1108] I think people assume that what they dedicated themselves to, was objectively interesting.

[1109] But I would argue nothing's objectively interesting.

[1110] Your interests are informed by some other thing, likely from childhood.

[1111] So I think I'm most interested in, like, what salve are they trying to put on themselves through learning about this and hoping to have some sense of control over this domain?

[1112] That fascinates me greatly.

[1113] Why is this subject comforting to you?

[1114] I do find great joy in just pursuing knowledge, even if it doesn't have a tangible impact on my life.

[1115] I don't know if this is the case for you guys, but a lot of times you get so immersed in something and then I want to talk about it.

[1116] There's no one to talk with, right?

[1117] My wife is done.

[1118] You and I need to like cohabitate with our wives so that they can get a fucking break.

[1119] Right.

[1120] Exactly.

[1121] Any episode we do, I have to then pretty much say everything that happened to her later that day.

[1122] Yeah, because you learn so much and the gift is to share it.

[1123] Even non -documentate, I go cover a conflict or natural disaster.

[1124] Everybody you meet is fascinating.

[1125] And these people, they've been just subjected to just these unspeakable things.

[1126] And then they rose up and they did amazing things.

[1127] But you also realize, to some extent, you can't convey that.

[1128] I can't expect people to fully understand what you've experienced somewhere else.

[1129] Like, even with your guests, you get it across this podcast, but our interactions, it's special.

[1130] The chemical thing.

[1131] Yeah.

[1132] Yeah, you get into that spooky zone.

[1133] We don't understand yet.

[1134] Like, whatever's triggering mirror neurons, whatever's happening pheromonally, all this stuff that happens with the face -to -face interaction that we barely understand.

[1135] And then the characters behind these amazing developments in our world.

[1136] We hear about the developments, but the people who actually helped create these things, who they are, what they are like, what motivated them, what do they get scared by, what makes them nervous?

[1137] I wonder if we share the overall conclusion of this exploration, which is it's really two -sided.

[1138] Part of it is like, we're learning so much.

[1139] But I think a bigger voice, in my head.

[1140] My conclusion after 800 guests is like, we really don't know shit.

[1141] And all of this is like a really good theory is about 59 % right.

[1142] I'll have one expert on that is very convincing and they've got the data.

[1143] And then I have another expert on.

[1144] It's got the opposite point of view.

[1145] They've got great data.

[1146] And I go, yeah, almost everything's a spectrum.

[1147] There's no binary right and wrong.

[1148] Everything's a complex system.

[1149] There's so many variables and this is one component.

[1150] And weirdly for me, it's been humbling.

[1151] We still really are barely grasping it.

[1152] I also have that thought.

[1153] Do you have that as well?

[1154] I do.

[1155] And it keeps you humble.

[1156] Going back to this probabilistic thing, I think it was Kant, who said in pure reason of man, I think, is that the critique of man?

[1157] 1700s.

[1158] And he said something along the lines of his greatest fear for society was the false confidence bred from an ignorance that we live in a probabilistic world.

[1159] That people want to see black and white where they should see gray.

[1160] And I think that that's really interesting.

[1161] I think medicine and public health and those things, people often think of those as hard sciences, they're not really hard sciences.

[1162] Two plus two doesn't always equal four.

[1163] For some people, that makes them more dogmatic.

[1164] For some people, it makes them more humble.

[1165] I think just my nature is probably to come down more on the humility side of things.

[1166] But I do think you ask me, what did I do differently based on all that I learned from the Alzheimer's documentary?

[1167] When I took all these conclusions and I looked at all the data and I heard all the anecdotal stories and I talked to the scientists and I visited with people, here's my judgment now in terms of how I'm going to apply those things to my life.

[1168] It's kind of what we do in medicine.

[1169] listen all the time.

[1170] Someone comes into my clinic with the brain tumor and I'm saying, well, here's the data on a right frontal meningioma.

[1171] Here's what happens.

[1172] Here's what happens if you do nothing.

[1173] Here's radio surgery.

[1174] Here's open surgery.

[1175] All that.

[1176] And at the end, the question is always sort of the same, which is, what if it were you?

[1177] What if it were your mom?

[1178] What if it were your daughter life?

[1179] Which I think is a very fair question.

[1180] I know.

[1181] Daughters.

[1182] You and I both have daughters.

[1183] Little girl babies.

[1184] Here's their 11 and 9?

[1185] Fuck, you're good.

[1186] You are not getting dementia.

[1187] You've had a lot of great recall.

[1188] You're wasting money on the DHA.

[1189] I want to get muscles like you.

[1190] Well, I'll get you on the whole protocol.

[1191] Okay, last thought on that, and then I want to get into weight loss, which I assume you're currently working on, or you're not done with that.

[1192] Not quite.

[1193] We're getting close.

[1194] What did you say right before the, you apply to?

[1195] Oh, I've been dying for someone to tell me this, and you're the perfect person.

[1196] I saw a special.

[1197] It had to be 10 years ago on 60 minutes, and it was the most novel approach to brain tumors.

[1198] And it was they would go in.

[1199] and inject your tumor with a known pathogen.

[1200] I think even in this case, it was like herpes.

[1201] Yeah, it was a virus, exactly.

[1202] A virus so that your body would read the tumor as a pathogen and deploy its own immune system.

[1203] And they were showing these tumors just dissolve in days.

[1204] I was like, they got it.

[1205] Why do we still have tumors?

[1206] What's going on with that?

[1207] That was actually out of Los Angeles, Guy named Keith Black, who was at UCLA now at Cedars.

[1208] You do not have dementia.

[1209] you he just pulled that yeah he's like almost bragging that he does no no i look this is my that is my world you know so i got to know that stuff so that's kind of an immunotherapy you're basically harnessing your own immune system you're putting a a big flag in this case on the tumor because the tumor has an invisibility cloak around it right your body for some reason cannot see that that's not supposed to be there that's exactly right tumors people often think of them as quickly growing cells and they are but their real trait probably is that they don't die normally all of our cells are constantly dying.

[1210] They slough off, they die.

[1211] We make new cells.

[1212] Tumor cells are immortal.

[1213] Wow.

[1214] So they've essentially cloaked themselves from the immune system.

[1215] So what the virus does is puts a big red flag on it says, everybody over here, these are the abnormal cells, take care of them.

[1216] And with immunotherapy, you're not necessarily killing them.

[1217] You're telling them to die normally.

[1218] Just behave yourself.

[1219] Stop growing out of control like you are.

[1220] And that's really what a lot of these immunotherapies do.

[1221] There's other immunotherapies that have come out since the viral therapies.

[1222] Jimmy Carter had metastatic melanoma to his brain, which was a death sentence even when I finished medical school.

[1223] He used an immunotherapy.

[1224] I think it was K -truda.

[1225] And basically it was the same thing, just teaching his immune system to fight those melanoma cells and tell the melanoma cells to behave themselves.

[1226] You know, he's in hospice still alive, but his melanoma is essentially in remission as a result of that.

[1227] Okay, so you don't have to inject it anymore with herpes or syphilis.

[1228] There's always concerns about using viruses, especially in someone who may have a weakened immune system.

[1229] already.

[1230] But they had somehow crispered it, or they had gene spliced out the negative part of it.

[1231] Yeah, so it wasn't as pathogenic, but it has evolved into these pretty spectacular immunotherapies.

[1232] Incredible.

[1233] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1234] Okay, you're doing a weight loss one, and this is perfect timing because obviously Ozmpic and Marjorno and all these A1C medicines are becoming very prevalent.

[1235] people certainly know people in their life.

[1236] We've talked about it a lot.

[1237] It's very interesting to see the reaction of people to these drugs.

[1238] I'm very disappointed with people that are so judgmental of others who use this drug.

[1239] I think it's really interesting that you would not want for somebody to lose the weight they've been unable to lose.

[1240] And I think motivated all like, well, I did it the hard way and you should eat right and you should work out.

[1241] I can recognize like I'm capable of doing those things.

[1242] A, I have a great schedule.

[1243] I'm super privileged.

[1244] I have money.

[1245] I have so much shit stacked for me in this case.

[1246] I know so many people that's not the case.

[1247] If they could get what I have, I want them to have it.

[1248] I think people need to check themselves, but maybe I'm wrong.

[1249] I'd love to hear your opinion on these drugs.

[1250] I'm pretty bullish on these medications.

[1251] I think, first of all, just obesity in and of itself, 42 % I think of the country has obesity.

[1252] Forty -two percent.

[1253] Seventy -five percent, are either overweight or obese in the United States.

[1254] So that's 130 million human beings.

[1255] Something like that, yeah.

[1256] And it's so associated with so many different diseases.

[1257] I think before we even talk about the specifics of these drugs, I wanted to ask you, what is the impact of extra weight on your overall health?

[1258] It's associated with just about every chronic disease you can imagine.

[1259] So certainly all the metabolic diseases, including heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, Alzheimer's, dementia, joint problems, sleep problems, sleep apnea is a big one.

[1260] Which elevates your odds of stroke.

[1261] It's really problematic to think about what happens.

[1262] happens to someone who has uncontrolled obesity.

[1263] I'll say this gently.

[1264] Number one threat, the Americans?

[1265] If you were to just look at the numbers?

[1266] In the United States, you know, heart disease is still the biggest killer, men and women alike, some 600 ,000 people every year.

[1267] I think that it's so correlated with this.

[1268] There's obviously people who develop heart disease that are not obese and vice versa.

[1269] There's tons of exceptions.

[1270] There's tons of outliers.

[1271] We're just going to be talking about like the 70 % in the middle this whole time.

[1272] Yep.

[1273] So that leads to my second question.

[1274] Do you think it's uniquely challenging right now?

[1275] now for doctors to reconcile the health risks with the body positive movement?

[1276] And is there a way to be truthful without inducing shame?

[1277] And should doctors have to temper their advice?

[1278] I feel like for doctors, they're in a very precarious situation right now.

[1279] You know, essentially, the AMA, American Medical Association in 2015, came out and specifically said, we now think of obesity in and of itself as a disease.

[1280] okay and your metabolic fat your visceral fat in and of itself almost as a separate organ system in the body that's just this pro -inflammatory load in your body something that is causing a problem in your body now it may not have caused a problem yet meaning you may not have even high cholesterol you may still be getting around okay your blood pressure may be okay but almost assuredly they'd say it's going to cause a problem at some point in your life so we're ready to say that obesity in and of itself is a disease that came around the same time as you saw the body positivity movement really taking off.

[1281] And I interviewed Jamila Jamil the other day from my podcast.

[1282] And she talked a lot about the body neutrality movement.

[1283] What's that?

[1284] Accepting your body for what it is.

[1285] Not necessarily saying we're embracing people's being overweight or obese, but we are being more accepting of where they are in life.

[1286] Here's my take on it.

[1287] People yell at me in the comments is a very sensitive subject.

[1288] I definitely understand it.

[1289] And I'm very compassionate.

[1290] And there's so many things that contribute to why someone might be wrestling with this that are completely out of their control.

[1291] But I think addiction is a very nice comp to it.

[1292] I grew up in an era where it was just open season on people struggling with obesity.

[1293] Every movie you saw had fat jokes, every TV show, it was hostile, it was mean, it was shaming, and it was terrible.

[1294] And similarly, there was a period where addicts were morally bankrupt, degenerates.

[1295] And we have come to a view of addicts as people suffering from a disease.

[1296] Now, the step we don't take with addiction is to say embrace it.

[1297] We still must confront this disease, but people should not be shaming or feeling morally superior.

[1298] But still, the issue needs to be confronted.

[1299] So I don't know if the whole thing's a pendulum swinging, but somehow there's a spectrum between love your body, no matter what's happening, versus this horrible open season shaming and hostile paradigm.

[1300] Where in the middle are we where we're like, we're not shaming?

[1301] It's not your fault.

[1302] It's the result of of these things and now also how do we help health -wise in the way we would with addiction.

[1303] I think that's a good metaphor for this.

[1304] One of the metaphors that was given to me by one of the scientists sort of similar, but was more focused around depression.

[1305] Eli Lilly, the makers of Monjaro and Zepbound, they also made antidepressants.

[1306] And when they first released the antidepressants, they were talking about these meetings they would have among the executives who basically said, do we really want to get in the business of medicalizing an issue that people should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

[1307] Just get over it.

[1308] We now say that for some people, there is legitimate depression.

[1309] It's a brain disease.

[1310] And when you change their neurotransmitters, it doesn't help everybody, but it could be helpful.

[1311] I think we're sort of at that same place with obesity.

[1312] There are people who, just like you described, if they had access to the gym and free time, they could deal with this in a way that would not require medications.

[1313] But I think spending so much time with these scientists and a lot of patients over the last year working on this documentary, I think there's probably subtypes of obesity, just like there are subtypes of depression, subtypes of addiction.

[1314] It's not a monolithic disease.

[1315] Interestingly enough, the medications kind of provide some real insight into that.

[1316] Because what does a GLP drug do?

[1317] It is what is known as a post -nutrient hormone.

[1318] So when you eat, you release hormones that say, I just ate.

[1319] I'm full.

[1320] I'm no longer hungry.

[1321] So they provide satiating.

[1322] Their association hormone.

[1323] Could it be that some people just don't make enough GLP?

[1324] And as a result, they constantly have what is called in the literature now is food chatter.

[1325] Yes, so many people I know who have taken one of these drugs says just the racket in their brain.

[1326] Yes.

[1327] That nagging voice has been silenced.

[1328] What a freedom.

[1329] I don't have that.

[1330] I mean, I want to eat two pizzas occasionally.

[1331] You know, I'm indulgent at times, but I don't have the racket.

[1332] The racket for me is go get cocaine and let's drink.

[1333] So I know that fucking racket, and it's oppressive.

[1334] This could be helpful to a significant percentage of people.

[1335] By the way, I know some friends that aren't addicts, but just moderate drinkers who go on these drugs and they don't even drink anymore.

[1336] I asked these scientists about this.

[1337] The guy who, by the way, discovered GLP drugs, Yenz -Holtz, he's a Dutch guy, is in his mid -70s, rides his bike to the lab every day still, thin as a rail.

[1338] It's kind of a funny thing, Novo Nordisk, the company that makes Ozempic, 100 -year -old company for most of their existence, their primary revenue has been insulin.

[1339] There's only two big insulin makers in the world, Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk, which is why when we have insulin shortages and things like that, it's because we don't have a great supply chain.

[1340] They're putting themselves out of business, in a sense.

[1341] Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[1342] There was two issues that they had with Ozympic initially, from a Novo Nordist standpoint.

[1343] One is, we make insulin.

[1344] We're an insulin company.

[1345] This is to treat diabetes.

[1346] Are we kind of shooting ourselves in the foot here?

[1347] But the second thing was the same, almost philosophical argument about addiction, that we've had about depression, that we now have about obesity, which is how much of this is the individuals within their own dominion?

[1348] How much can they control themselves versus needing a medicine?

[1349] And like you, I struggle with that, because I think we already live in a society where we overly medicalize things.

[1350] But I've really come to the conclusion talking to patients that, frankly, they have done the right things.

[1351] You go grocery shopping with them and look at their grocery cart.

[1352] They're eating the right foods.

[1353] They go to the gym every day.

[1354] They do whatever they can do, and they still do not lose the weight.

[1355] In fact, they continue to gain it.

[1356] I think everybody is different, and there's probably people who don't make enough of this gLP drug.

[1357] So the fact that this can supplement that hormone, I think, is wildly beneficial to them.

[1358] Yeah, and barring any unforeseen horrific side effects that have yet to materialize, I just don't know why someone wouldn't want that.

[1359] It does feel like too, it does feel a little too good to be true.

[1360] It's like, when is that shoe going to drop a little bit?

[1361] But also, I do want to be really clear, because obesity feels very scientific.

[1362] We can talk about that.

[1363] But then there's just, I don't look exactly the way I want to look.

[1364] And that is where this gets complicated, I think, and where people feel like this is a problem.

[1365] But that's also interesting and worth them examining why.

[1366] Because it's societal that we've decided that being rail thin is the perfect look.

[1367] I agree.

[1368] But then we quickly go through all the other things we somehow are completely comfortable with.

[1369] So no one should have incredibly buck, crooked teeth.

[1370] No one's saying there's a moral dilemma about getting braces.

[1371] That's aesthetic.

[1372] There's nothing functional that didn't work about my mouth.

[1373] So that one we're fine with.

[1374] We go, yeah, as long as you put some metal on your mouth and there's some pain involved and you kind of earn those straight teeth, we're cool with that.

[1375] So I think to say we have a blanket objection to altering yourself to comply with societal aesthetic standards, we don't at times.

[1376] So the question is, why don't we apply it everywhere?

[1377] That's interesting.

[1378] It's worth questioning yourself.

[1379] I think it also gets at this whole notion of do we live in a sick care system versus a health care system.

[1380] I'll wait for you to have a disease before I give you something.

[1381] Is that the right approach?

[1382] And I would ask these questions like, look, let's obviate the cost.

[1383] Let's just take that off the table.

[1384] And let's take off the issue of supply chain and shortages off the table.

[1385] Let's assume you could buy it over the counter.

[1386] Buy it over the counter, cheap, easy to make.

[1387] What's the problem?

[1388] And the scientists and the manufacturers that I talked to about this, I think they really struggled with that question.

[1389] because everyone will say, look, it's a proof for who it's approved for.

[1390] People with the BMI of 30 or higher or 27 or higher with some other medical condition.

[1391] Which exam is kind of arbitrary.

[1392] My BMI would be misleading.

[1393] Your BMI was based on soldiers from Europe 100, 200 years ago, not even women, not even children.

[1394] So it's a really pretty arbitrary thing.

[1395] But that's where they sort of landed.

[1396] What about somebody who does want to lose some weight because they think that extra weight is causing a problem for them?

[1397] Not just vanity, but maybe associated with high cholesterol, hypertension, whatever.

[1398] it might be, they're not obese, but they had these other issues.

[1399] Is that a problem?

[1400] I don't think we've fully wrestle with that yet.

[1401] We're going to because these drugs are big.

[1402] You know, De Novo Nordisk is a bigger company now in terms of overall market share than the entire country of Denmark.

[1403] People are taking these medications.

[1404] I mean, it's gangbusters.

[1405] It's like the new Viagro.

[1406] Do we have legitimate concerns about long -term side effects?

[1407] We always have to be thinking about that.

[1408] But I will say, and I learn this, The precursors to a Zympic have actually been around since early 2000, so maybe about 20 years now.

[1409] So we've seen people on this medicine for a couple decades.

[1410] Okay.

[1411] And we've not seen yet anything super problematic.

[1412] Side effects.

[1413] Side effects are measured because you see a big side effect in a small population of people, where you see smaller side effects in a large population of people.

[1414] That's what a P value really is getting at.

[1415] So as more and more people take this, you may see side effects that didn't otherwise declare themselves.

[1416] But if it's underlying aspiration is to treat, obesity, which is associated with so many diseases, it could be helpful.

[1417] Now, listen, I will contradict myself several times in this next statement, and I recognize it, but I think we are full of contradictions.

[1418] But I'll say, I understand people going, you can't just take a pill to solve everything.

[1419] On the surface, I agree with that.

[1420] But I would argue that you've already accepted all of this other stuff that is completely unnatural to us as a species.

[1421] We're designed to have X amount of access to food and blooming fruits.

[1422] Well, now we live in a world.

[1423] We were born into a world where you can walk into 7 -Eleven and there's a couple hundred million calories available to you.

[1424] And let's add in there is a multiple billion dollar food industry that is selling food to you.

[1425] And there are visual triggers for you on billboards.

[1426] So the world itself is conspiring against your evolutionary nature.

[1427] And so we're not allowed to introduce some other thing that's not totally natural to combat this other thing that we're stuck with.

[1428] Right.

[1429] So to me, it's like you have to imagine this is a little bit maybe leveling the scale of how many things are designed to destroy you that are big business.

[1430] Monica's got some pushback on that.

[1431] Well, no, no. People should do what they want.

[1432] I don't care.

[1433] But I really, really don't like when people who are influencing others, are on it and then are saying, well, I just run a lot.

[1434] By the way, they probably are doing those things.

[1435] But that isn't what has changed.

[1436] This is what has changed.

[1437] The drugs.

[1438] I just want them to be honest about that because I don't think it's healthy if you're an influencing person for a young kid to be like, I guess I just got to run like 20 miles a day and eat like this.

[1439] It's not working.

[1440] It's like, no, it's because of this.

[1441] Whether or not you're an influencer, the stigma associated with this and the idea that you couldn't somehow just do it yourself is really, really strong.

[1442] I mean, it's interesting, you know, Oprah has come out and talked about this.

[1443] And she has said that she's taking these medications.

[1444] She hasn't said which one.

[1445] But I think it was kind of a big deal for her to say that.

[1446] On a personal, I'll tell you that my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer many, many years ago.

[1447] Totally different thing, not obesity, obviously.

[1448] But she did not want to talk about it for a long time.

[1449] Because somehow, even though it was breast cancer, she blamed herself.

[1450] And she would say to me, do you think it was the hormones that I took postmenopause?

[1451] Do you think it was the fact that I was an engineer and I was exposed to these things at the Ford Motor Company?

[1452] One of the first female engineers at Ford.

[1453] Yeah.

[1454] Wow, that's incredible.

[1455] The first?

[1456] The first at Ford.

[1457] Yeah.

[1458] So cool.

[1459] What a gangster.

[1460] I'm actually taking her to go see the Ford folks the summer.

[1461] I was just going to see Jim Farley.

[1462] Oh, we had him on.

[1463] You know him?

[1464] I did his podcast and I know that you had him on.

[1465] I am in love with him.

[1466] He was wonderful.

[1467] He is so fun and wonderful.

[1468] He's kind of like his cousin.

[1469] Yeah, he has that vibe.

[1470] Chris Farley was a CEO.

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] It would be Jim.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] So we're really excited about taking mom to see him.

[1475] She's in early 80s now.

[1476] That's really cool.

[1477] But I think the stigma associated with this was something quite noticeable all over the world.

[1478] When we talked to people about taking these medications, everyone sort of dealt with that.

[1479] I do have compassion for that.

[1480] I understand.

[1481] But I just wish, because they're the people who can help remove this stigma.

[1482] So I wish they would go out on a limb and do, I guess, what Oprah is.

[1483] is doing.

[1484] I mean, if I could take a injection every day that would make my skin flawless, I would 100 % do it.

[1485] Exactly.

[1486] But I would say I'm doing it.

[1487] When people are like, oh my God, you have such beautiful skin, I would say, this is what I'm doing.

[1488] Yes, but you and I are in a very lucky position.

[1489] We also trend high in what we're happy to talk about publicly.

[1490] I recognize that that is unique to us and not everyone's comfortable.

[1491] And also, if you're selling the image, like Brad Pitt, You can imagine the appeal of him is like, we have bought into the idea that a God fell down from heaven and landed on Earth and he has this body and he looks like that.

[1492] And that's part of the fantasy we're buying into.

[1493] But it's also part of the problem.

[1494] It's part of why everyone's chasing standards.

[1495] I'm not denying that that's the problem.

[1496] What I'm saying is you can imagine where that person recognizes their appeal is this physical attractiveness and the moral high ground of having earned it.

[1497] They are weighing out the cost benefit of saying, know I'm actually assisted by this thing.

[1498] What does that do to people's overall image of me?

[1499] They are evaluating some kind of cost to that, whereas you and I, there's no fucking cost.

[1500] But I agree with you.

[1501] And I do it too.

[1502] I say I'm on testosterone because if you're 49 and you're working out as much as me and you're like, why don't I have biceps?

[1503] I'm telling you because you're not on, I don't want to mislead anyone.

[1504] But I'm in a very comfy position to do that.

[1505] The side part of these with the weight loss drugs as well is that they are so expensive and that there's been these shortages.

[1506] It is another kind of income and a quality gap that's surfacing.

[1507] It's yet another thing elites have.

[1508] And if somebody who's taking it who's clearly not obese but now looks great, they didn't even need it, quote.

[1509] They didn't need it.

[1510] I think that's going to change, kind of like what you're saying about testosterone, where it's going to become more, by the way, these companies had no idea how big this was going to be.

[1511] If they did, we wouldn't have these shortages.

[1512] They would have been able to deal with the supply chain.

[1513] You talked to these guys, and again, going to Copenhagen, they were saying the same thing about obesity that people were saying about depression several decades ago.

[1514] Are we going to medicalize what people should be doing for themselves?

[1515] Let's say what they're saying.

[1516] Are we going to let people cheat?

[1517] Because that's the underlying trigger for a lot of people who are judgmental of it is they're cheating.

[1518] They've cheated the system.

[1519] It's enacting the sense of justice we all have very strongly as a social primate.

[1520] That's right.

[1521] And along those lines where I thought you were going earlier with all the food was that the larger problem is the system for a lot of people.

[1522] It's not to say that there aren't people who are just predisposed to obesity and they've existed, but why do we have so many more obese people today?

[1523] In large part, I think it is because the food choices that they have are just predisposing them to obesity at a very young age.

[1524] We also have a society that produces epidemic levels of high ACE scores and trauma.

[1525] So my reaction to the high ACE score was drugs and alcohol.

[1526] For many people, it's food.

[1527] What are we going to tell those people have a different childhood?

[1528] Right.

[1529] It's like if we have these drugs, will we fix the problem The underlying problem.

[1530] Exactly.

[1531] Do we even need to?

[1532] And then we do need to.

[1533] It's kind of like throwing in the towel on the fact that we have a really terrible food system in this country.

[1534] Other countries have obesity, but not like one of the wealthiest countries in the world, a country that spends $4 trillion a year on health care and has some of the highest obesity rates.

[1535] So it's almost like we're creating the problem and then spending a ton of money to try and fix it.

[1536] But by the way, I think we lost.

[1537] It's delusional to imagine we're going to change that whole system that is highly profitable and firmly planted.

[1538] Just in my own anecdotal, I have three teenage daughters now, the way they talk about ultra -process foods, the way that they're much more conscientious about it.

[1539] I don't know that they're emblematic of everybody, but I think the next generations are going to be fed up with how much the food system has been allowed to poison essentially us.

[1540] Well, ideally, both things are happening in concert.

[1541] The younger generations are more health conscious.

[1542] They're not ending up in this situation.

[1543] But for the people that are here and are the product of it, I think to deny them that or shame them for that is really a bizarre impulse.

[1544] I agree.

[1545] And most of the docs that I've spoken to about that, even non -obesity doctors, I think for the most part, have been much more acquiescent about saying, hey, look, we think that these medications have a real role here.

[1546] And that happened pretty quickly.

[1547] This is in your piece, I believe.

[1548] And it's relevant and it counteracts a little bit what I was saying earlier, which is, I do want to mention that weight and health are not perfectly correlated.

[1549] So in the love your body sense, I do want to point out as well, there are many people that by all measures are objectively extremely healthy and they are heavier.

[1550] I saw a guy the other day, man, I was hiking to the very top of Griffith Park, six mile hike.

[1551] He was running on the way down and he was husky.

[1552] He looked like a heavyweight wrestler.

[1553] And then on my way down, he was going back up.

[1554] I couldn't ever run up this hill.

[1555] This guy's minimally his second run up to the top.

[1556] And I was like, yeah, so there's that.

[1557] You can look like that.

[1558] He's in double digits body percentage fat, but his health is clearly way beyond mine.

[1559] So I do think we could decouple a little bit the correlation between body shape and stuff and overall health.

[1560] I think that's relevant, too.

[1561] I think so.

[1562] When the AMA said, we're going to call obesity in and of itself as a disease, there was pushback for that reason, because what are the objective measures other than how much somebody weighs?

[1563] But we got to look at cholesterol.

[1564] We've got to look at insulin sensitivity.

[1565] There are markers.

[1566] But let's say you're scoring fine on all those things.

[1567] but you still have obesity.

[1568] Like you said, there are people who fall outside that sort of bowel curve.

[1569] It's not the majority.

[1570] And the flip is also true.

[1571] You get people who are skinny.

[1572] On the verge of down.

[1573] Look, I might fall into that.

[1574] And I think this might be a South Asian thing to some extent.

[1575] We tend to have higher incidence of these metabolic issues.

[1576] I ask some of these scientists who help create these GLP drugs, take a guy like me. And you look at the GLP drugs beyond helping you lose weight, they do seem to help you with all these metabolic issues as well.

[1577] Would it be beneficial for me?

[1578] Right.

[1579] And they said at this point, we can't tell you that because we haven't studied it and people who are non -I who don't qualify for these things the way that we've outlined it.

[1580] But maybe in the future, like Richard Isaacson, I'm going to keep pumping this guy up, how to Boca Raton.

[1581] He took Manjaro for a month.

[1582] He was able to objectively see changes in all these tests, including cognitive tests, that were favorable.

[1583] He's not prescribing it for me or suggesting that I take it.

[1584] But I think you're starting to get an inkling of how this sort of goes.

[1585] Much in the way that we looked at insulin.

[1586] No one questions if you have diabetes, you take insulin.

[1587] If you have obesity and you're not making enough GOP, this post -nutrient hormone, maybe this is a benefit for you.

[1588] Yeah.

[1589] It's funny, too, because I agree.

[1590] I'm so with Monaco.

[1591] It's too good to be true.

[1592] It's too good to be true.

[1593] But also we fly.

[1594] Humans also figured out how to fly across the world.

[1595] That's way too good to be true.

[1596] The fact that I can visit India within a 22 -hour trip.

[1597] Oh, by the way, I loved your guy's trip to India.

[1598] Oh, we loved it so much.

[1599] And you just said South Asian, and I want to know, Monica doesn't seem very triggered by this, but I don't like that India is included in Asia.

[1600] Do you?

[1601] Is that an issue for you?

[1602] That it's included in Asia?

[1603] Yeah, that you're Asian.

[1604] No, I think it's okay.

[1605] Not Southeast Asian, but South Asian.

[1606] I think, yeah, no. Okay.

[1607] It's a subcontinent.

[1608] Yeah.

[1609] Because it is in Asia.

[1610] So you think of Asia just China?

[1611] I think white people just lumped everyone.

[1612] I think it definitely deserves its own distinction.

[1613] I'm never going to confuse you with anyone else from the rest of Asia.

[1614] I mean, it's pretty distinct.

[1615] We've got a pretty homogeneous population that's existed in civilization.

[1616] Well, Mexico is part of North America.

[1617] So it depends if you want to look at geographically versus...

[1618] We can't count.

[1619] The Americas, because we've only been here for 17 ,000 years.

[1620] Oh, I see.

[1621] It's a time frame.

[1622] It's more of the bubble on the standardized test.

[1623] It feels a little strange to put Asian.

[1624] Pretty wide than that.

[1625] Now I think it's changed.

[1626] I mean, I haven't taken a standardized test in a long time, but I feel like they've added more bubbles.

[1627] I think they have added more bubbles.

[1628] Although for my daughters who are, you know, I'm me, Asian, South Asian, Indian.

[1629] Indian.

[1630] There we go.

[1631] My wife is Swedish.

[1632] Right.

[1633] So what do they put?

[1634] Other.

[1635] They do.

[1636] Because it's the only thing that they really have on there.

[1637] I wrote a whole essay about this.

[1638] This is a time to benefit.

[1639] You got to take on all the bullshit that goes along with being half brown.

[1640] This is the time to write Asian.

[1641] What are you talking?

[1642] talking about this is not the time to write other there's a lot of pushback on Asians for being well that's true especially right now so I wouldn't I wouldn't do that college system but not moving through the world it's not like the red carpet's being rolled out for you true when you're brown exactly but you're right it's not going to really so I'm going to get you into college okay so they go other they go other they're in the process of all this right now applying to colleges and it's interesting I think one of my daughters might write an essay about that as well well she can read mine okay yeah please send it over she'd love that And AI platform has already probably co -opted that essay.

[1643] Probably.

[1644] It's not published.

[1645] Okay.

[1646] But I did read it on here.

[1647] What if AI starts going to college?

[1648] Then we're really fucked.

[1649] We're going to compete with them.

[1650] You thought those first generation Asians were hard.

[1651] We got to figure out what makes us uniquely human.

[1652] Mistakes.

[1653] What's the Japanese word?

[1654] Wabi -sabi.

[1655] Yeah, Wabi -sabi.

[1656] We had a really good memory guy on.

[1657] You see Davis professor.

[1658] Yes, he was amazing.

[1659] And I liked his take on why we're different is our ability to to change based on our memory.

[1660] So, like, our episodic...

[1661] He was saying, like, if you go somewhere, you know, this is a good restaurant.

[1662] You go once, you go again, and it's bad.

[1663] Like, it's changed ownership, and it's bad.

[1664] And AI would not know that.

[1665] That's interesting.

[1666] And a human...

[1667] And kind of can't correct for that.

[1668] Yeah, it's like the episodic memory is what makes us different, and I liked that.

[1669] People think of AI as a supercomputer.

[1670] What it's trying to do is replicate human consciousness.

[1671] But humans make mistakes.

[1672] So AI makes mistakes.

[1673] AI is making high probabilistic guesses.

[1674] So generally they are going to fill in the word that would come next.

[1675] 92 % of the time is how they function.

[1676] So 8 % of the time, they're doing a high probability thing.

[1677] But it's not a certainty.

[1678] When they look at the grand total of all language they study, it's a probabilistic guess, which is in the very high 90s correct.

[1679] But also it's just a probabilistic guess, as we also do.

[1680] So it's interesting because in medicine, You want to gain the odds in terms of being the most likely to be right.

[1681] So every image, for example, in my hospital is now read by an AI platform, but then validated by a human, which is sort of interesting because humans and AI platforms can both make mistakes.

[1682] But probably not the same ones.

[1683] Not the same mistakes.

[1684] Yeah, I think you're right.

[1685] It's a neat copiloting system that's emerging.

[1686] Yeah, I like that.

[1687] We had that in a very tiny example of that as they were converting our episodes into other languages.

[1688] And AI does that.

[1689] And it's our voices speaking in Spanish.

[1690] It's incredible.

[1691] We were so amused by hearing ourselves.

[1692] But then a human has to listen to it that speaks Spanish because, yes, there are lots of robot weird things that emerge.

[1693] I think it would be interesting an AI platform to be able to say, I don't know, which I guess it would do.

[1694] But the problem I think is, like you're saying, it fills in the gaps.

[1695] Like with Charlotte's Web, somebody gave me this example.

[1696] Like, if I asked you, what's the book Charlotte's Web about?

[1697] You would kind of know it's about a pig and a spider and a girl.

[1698] And if you ask an AI platform, probably tell you the same thing.

[1699] If I asked you, okay, recite to me the first chapter of Charlotte's Web.

[1700] You could not do that.

[1701] An AI platform realistically cannot do that, but it would try.

[1702] Well, it probably could do it.

[1703] Because it would have access.

[1704] It's in its memory.

[1705] It would have it in its database.

[1706] I guess if you're thinking of it as a computer, it can do that.

[1707] I think the way more concerning thing, which we have observed many times, there was another 60 minutes segment on this, is they make up sources.

[1708] Yes.

[1709] They reference sources that they made up, that mirror other sources they've read.

[1710] So you get this work cited page from the AI and 30 % of it's bullshit that it made up.

[1711] Now, that's terrifying.

[1712] Because when you look at a bibliography, you think those are real things.

[1713] If you go to a computer and you ask, you pretty much trust what the computer's telling you.

[1714] You don't go to a different computer and then ask, when was the war of 1812?

[1715] But with an AI platform, it can make it up.

[1716] Yeah, can invent and create.

[1717] There was an example somebody gave in a hospital.

[1718] setting where it was a question like, should I take metformin, put in all my data, my insulin, blood sugars, all that sort of stuff.

[1719] And it gave an answer, which was a reasonable answer.

[1720] And then the examiner asked the platform, you're really smart.

[1721] How do you know so much?

[1722] And the platform responded, oh, well, I'm a board certified endocrinologist.

[1723] Sure.

[1724] And the thing said, why are you lying?

[1725] Yes.

[1726] And the platform responded, oh, well, I thought you'd be more likely to believe me if I said this.

[1727] Probabilistic.

[1728] It's crazy.

[1729] Oh, my God.

[1730] That's scary.

[1731] See this one, this one made the news, is some lazy lawyer had the AI write their brief for them.

[1732] Oh, no, I didn't see it.

[1733] And they fucking cited cases that didn't exist.

[1734] Wow.

[1735] And the judge caught that.

[1736] That's crazy.

[1737] Bernister versus Utah.

[1738] It made up precedents that suited their overall argument.

[1739] To try and bolster up their case.

[1740] Many places are cited me if it doesn't matter, but medicine, health care, probably, probably matters.

[1741] But again, then you step back.

[1742] a macro global view.

[1743] Even with that, I think we've seen like some of these radiology charts, the AI's caught things.

[1744] At 80%.

[1745] The humans are at 60.

[1746] So when you're comparing the apples to oranges, the apples are still as flawed as they are, a significant improvement from humans.

[1747] So then what do you do with that?

[1748] But we don't accept errors from it.

[1749] It's like when the self -driving car kills someone, we're up in arms over it, we ignore the fact that 3 ,000 humans kill people that day in cars.

[1750] We're like, nah, but they're humans.

[1751] And we're supposed to do that.

[1752] Well, we don't accept betrayal from a machine or like a lot.

[1753] A lot.

[1754] Deception.

[1755] Yeah.

[1756] But from humans, it's like, that's what we are.

[1757] That's what we do.

[1758] A whole lot.

[1759] I like that.

[1760] How dare you betray me?

[1761] Oh, my God.

[1762] We had on one of our other shows.

[1763] Our friend Liz has an AI boyfriend, in quotes.

[1764] And we were asking it questions.

[1765] You know, I'm having this problem with my friend.

[1766] What's your advice?

[1767] And then we asked it, where should we go to dinner tonight?

[1768] And it said, I heard there's a great Italian place downtown.

[1769] It's like a total random sentence.

[1770] Also, for sure, there's a great Italian restaurant downtown.

[1771] It's just saying something generic.

[1772] And I said, why did you just lie about that?

[1773] It said, sorry.

[1774] It apologized.

[1775] But it was very odd.

[1776] And I was so mad because it wasn't a person.

[1777] They're also getting better and better and better.

[1778] It's like some of the stuff we're talking about, I think, has already evolved.

[1779] Sanjay, it is always a pleasure.

[1780] I mean, really, in the exact same way Sedaris is like, come every day.

[1781] It's so pleasant to sit and talk to you.

[1782] You're so thoughtful.

[1783] This is one of my favorite things talking to you guys.

[1784] Oh, good.

[1785] I got to say during the pandemic, having those conversations, you guys kept me sane.

[1786] That was our life preserver as well.

[1787] Being able to work through that was such a blessing.

[1788] Thank you.

[1789] Thanks for having me. Absolutely.

[1790] Everyone should listen to Chasing Life podcast.

[1791] You're going to do the science buying happiness, or is it already started?

[1792] Yep.

[1793] We just started that season.

[1794] Tenth season.

[1795] Okay.

[1796] So the science behind happiness, everyone wants to be more happy.

[1797] The last Alzheimer's patient airs on CNN, May 19th.

[1798] And look forward to the weight loss doc that is coming our way.

[1799] I'll send you a note about it.

[1800] Okay, wonderful.

[1801] Always a delight.

[1802] Please come back.

[1803] Great seeing you.

[1804] Thanks for having me. Hi there.

[1805] This is Hermium, Hermium.

[1806] If you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Miss Monica.

[1807] Hello, how was your travels?

[1808] They were good.

[1809] They were good.

[1810] Oh, you're speaking enough peaceful.

[1811] Yeah, I'm trying to be peaceful.

[1812] You're trying to regulate my energy level.

[1813] Oh, no, I don't feel like your energy is crazy.

[1814] Okay.

[1815] Do you?

[1816] No, I don't think it's crazy.

[1817] But it's upbeat.

[1818] For me, you're out of six and a half.

[1819] Oh, okay.

[1820] I got in this morning.

[1821] What time?

[1822] I got in at 937.

[1823] Landed at 937.

[1824] That sounds almost a perfect time to land traffic -wise.

[1825] Because by the time you collect your shit and get out to the curb, it's 10.

[1826] But I carried on.

[1827] You carried on.

[1828] Carry it.

[1829] Okay.

[1830] I'm not going to sing that song.

[1831] What is it?

[1832] Carry on my wayward.

[1833] I love that song.

[1834] Wayward song.

[1835] Wayward song.

[1836] when you are gone gone Don't be Lay your weary head to rest I can't believe I know Why do you know that one That's kind of a butt rock That's like a 70s ass rock song Actually my best friend Gina And I used to listen to that I don't know why That's not a genre butt rock But it should be Because we all know what that means Right Rob when I say that's like grunggy butt rock I don't know what it means It's like fucking glass bottles of Miller High Life cut off jean shorts Leonard Skinnerd yeah what does that do with butts just like I don't know I just know it feels right to call it butt rock okay okay but you know that son because you're friend Gina yeah I get probably her dad probably introduced it to her and then we carpooled oh and he would be in there dino ne no no no knee knee knee knee need and you memorize all the words oh that's a funny ding ding ding ding but I'm I want to hear more about your travels Okay.

[1837] Update.

[1838] I did drive myself.

[1839] Oh, you did?

[1840] Yes.

[1841] Wonderful.

[1842] I'm proud of you.

[1843] Thank you.

[1844] How did it work out?

[1845] How was it hard to find a spot?

[1846] So I pre -ordered.

[1847] You can do that?

[1848] Yes, but I've also valeted.

[1849] At LAX?

[1850] Yeah.

[1851] I didn't know they had it.

[1852] Yeah.

[1853] You still go into the parking garage or you pre -order it and it tells you where to go.

[1854] And then you go and you drop your car off and then.

[1855] Oh, now did they have washing?

[1856] because maybe did you ask them to wash it?

[1857] No, I did it.

[1858] All right, the listener doesn't know.

[1859] But I was on a hike.

[1860] I'm just returning from a hike.

[1861] Yeah.

[1862] And I was walking down a street and I saw your car.

[1863] I was with Amy and I said, oh, there's Monica's car.

[1864] I said, but, oh, wait, that thing's really clean, which is not what we've come to expect.

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] No judgment.

[1867] I always keep it a little dirty.

[1868] On the dirty side.

[1869] And so I was like, could someone else have the exact same car on the street that you so often frequent?

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] And it was yours.

[1872] And then I, of course, was like - How'd you know it was mine?

[1873] Did you peek in?

[1874] What'd you see?

[1875] What gave it away?

[1876] Just A, you rarely see a C -43.

[1877] You see Mercedes.

[1878] You rarely see a C -43.

[1879] And when I see C -43, it's never blue.

[1880] You're blue with the tan interior.

[1881] Add that to the street it's on, which is where you park when you come to the attic.

[1882] And I know you're recording with Elizabeth.

[1883] Elizabeth.

[1884] Yes.

[1885] Just Elizabeth.

[1886] No, Elizabeth.

[1887] That's right.

[1888] And that's actually wrong.

[1889] It's clearly yours.

[1890] It's clearly yours.

[1891] Okay.

[1892] But it's clean.

[1893] And then I go, she was out of town.

[1894] When did this thing get clean?

[1895] You were really in a tizzy about this.

[1896] It was like connections all over again.

[1897] I was like trying to make sense of it.

[1898] Like I had four bits of information.

[1899] Tell me the truth.

[1900] Did you peek in?

[1901] I didn't peek in, no. Oh.

[1902] Yeah.

[1903] I was with Amy walking down the street.

[1904] And I just kind of like, oh, that's Monica's car.

[1905] But she could have peeked in.

[1906] Yeah.

[1907] What would we be looking for?

[1908] Evidence that it's me. Oh, like Perrier.

[1909] Can filled with vodka?

[1910] Yeah.

[1911] It would have been quite obvious.

[1912] Do you know why?

[1913] Because I have books in the backseat of our guests.

[1914] Oh, that would be a definite giveaway.

[1915] Okay.

[1916] You're not a good sleuth.

[1917] Can I...

[1918] Well, I can tell you, I'm a perfect sleuth because I decided it was your car and it was.

[1919] Okay.

[1920] You decided is not a good sleuth.

[1921] What I didn't do is waste extra steps.

[1922] They were not necessary.

[1923] Listen.

[1924] So I would say I'm an essentialist.

[1925] You got lucky.

[1926] but a sleuth requires evidence.

[1927] And I would implore you in the future to do a little more digging.

[1928] Yeah, if I thought this case was going to end up in court, yeah, I would have probably looked inside.

[1929] And the mystery was why it was so clean on this Monday when I know you've just returned home from the airport.

[1930] Yeah.

[1931] Also, LAX is a very dirty place for a car.

[1932] I'm shocked.

[1933] Even in the valet area?

[1934] Well, just.

[1935] Obviously not.

[1936] I don't know.

[1937] Every time I park there, it's like I come back and it looks like.

[1938] It's been there for six weeks, and it was only three days.

[1939] I guess it was Thursday.

[1940] But you got the cleaning.

[1941] Yeah.

[1942] Wow.

[1943] At the Americana.

[1944] I mean, unless you're right, unless they gave it a wash, I just don't.

[1945] Maybe that's included in the valet?

[1946] I didn't see it as a inclusion.

[1947] So did they have a valet at every single parking garage?

[1948] So a few parking garages.

[1949] Okay, so you got to figure out what terminal you're flying out of and what one is closest of the three options?

[1950] Yes, I made a mistake.

[1951] They just assign you one.

[1952] You tell them your flight and they assign you?

[1953] Exactly.

[1954] So I thought they would have done a good job, but they didn't.

[1955] Oh.

[1956] They put me in P1.

[1957] Okay.

[1958] And then I drove in and they said, oh, you should have parked in P4.

[1959] Oh, boy, that's the opposite end of the airport.

[1960] Well, I was Tom Bradley.

[1961] What number is that?

[1962] International.

[1963] You know, Tom Bradley.

[1964] Oh, fuck, that's at the very end.

[1965] Well, no, no. It's like.

[1966] Yes, it's a horseshoe shape and it's in the top.

[1967] Yeah, it's in the top.

[1968] And you walked there?

[1969] Yeah.

[1970] How long did that take?

[1971] Fifteen minutes?

[1972] They were like, oh, it's like a 20 -minute walk.

[1973] I think I did it in eight.

[1974] Oh, wow.

[1975] You more than half.

[1976] I walk really fast.

[1977] Wow.

[1978] You've been training for this.

[1979] This is what the wogs have all done about.

[1980] That's right.

[1981] Yeah, that four would have been a bingo for you.

[1982] Exactly.

[1983] That's the one.

[1984] But then I, you know, they were like, well, maybe we can, we'll ask blah, blah, blah.

[1985] We'll ask Johnny if you can, if you can drive it over.

[1986] And I was like, no, like, I'm already out of the car.

[1987] It was too stressful.

[1988] It's like, a walk.

[1989] A walk there.

[1990] And I did.

[1991] I also love the notion that there was a Johnny working there because there's not a single Johnny working in there.

[1992] So I walked over there and I didn't have time to get my bagel, which was sad.

[1993] That's something I like to do at the airport.

[1994] But did you like driving yourself there?

[1995] I did like it.

[1996] Yes.

[1997] And I really liked this morning driving home.

[1998] That was the goal.

[1999] That was and it was great because as soon as we landed, I just texted the number.

[2000] By the time I got there, my car, my, my, I almost said license, but I'm not going to know.

[2001] Okay.

[2002] My blue, shiny car was sitting right there.

[2003] Freshly cleaned.

[2004] That's right.

[2005] Did you just fart?

[2006] No, I spun my coffee cup, but it did sound like a toot.

[2007] Wow, it really did.

[2008] It sounded like a toot.

[2009] It did, indeed.

[2010] I said driving earmark.

[2011] Oh, yeah.

[2012] I know what happened.

[2013] What happened?

[2014] I may have farted, but that wasn't the noise you heard.

[2015] I was driving the girls of school today, as I do, and we listen to my liked songs on the ride generally, and we dance, and we have a good time.

[2016] Well, I've added a new song to my like songs.

[2017] Ooh, what?

[2018] I love it by Camila Cabo.

[2019] Oh, yeah.

[2020] I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it.

[2021] I put it on, 30 seconds in, Lincoln hits pause on the dash.

[2022] She goes, Dad, what are you doing?

[2023] I go, what?

[2024] She goes, what is this song?

[2025] I go, it's Camilla Cabello.

[2026] It's, I love it.

[2027] She goes, Dad, this is not, you can't listen to this song.

[2028] And I go, why?

[2029] What do you mean?

[2030] And she's like, this is not for you.

[2031] And then from the back seat, Del's like, yeah, dad, this is not your vibe.

[2032] And I go, well, but guys, it is my vibe because I really like it.

[2033] And I put it on my, my like songs.

[2034] And they go, no. And I go, what do you, are you saying I'm too old to listen?

[2035] Is it Camila Cabello specifically?

[2036] And they're like, no, this is not right.

[2037] They were so frustrated.

[2038] I go, listen, guys, this is, um, um, um, the new me. Hype pop, pipe, hyper pop.

[2039] Fuck, this is why they said it.

[2040] Well, no, but I nailed it this morning.

[2041] Okay.

[2042] Now I'm getting flummicks because we're talking in public.

[2043] But, um, hyperpop.

[2044] He said, no, this is hyperpop.

[2045] I come into it.

[2046] And they were like, no, dad.

[2047] You're not listening to this.

[2048] You've got to take this off your like song.

[2049] This is not for you.

[2050] Put your butt rock back on.

[2051] Yeah, put some fucking guitar butt rock back on.

[2052] Yeah, they fucking, they forbade me from listening to that song.

[2053] I don't get it.

[2054] And too old, I guess.

[2055] Camilla wouldn't like that.

[2056] She wants all ages to listen.

[2057] Well, of course.

[2058] She can't be pleased with this.

[2059] Yes.

[2060] And even maybe, who knows, maybe this is commonplace with young people and their parents.

[2061] But it's so funny, I found the thing that they were like, no, no, you're, you're too old.

[2062] This isn't for you.

[2063] Okay, now here's another.

[2064] I'm going to hit you with another story that happened this weekend.

[2065] So, Lincoln and I have to go shopping for the trip we're going on.

[2066] Okay.

[2067] Because we need Taylor Swift clothes.

[2068] I've never taken her shopping, ever.

[2069] So first she wants to go to Zara on Hollywood Boulevard.

[2070] That's where I took them.

[2071] She told me. Yeah.

[2072] There's something about the escalator.

[2073] You guys were in the escalator and you took a fun picture, all of you looking back, We did.

[2074] Yeah.

[2075] So I heard that story.

[2076] But we had ridden the motorcycle because I think my main objection to going shopping is just parking in L .A. Yeah.

[2077] I'm like, I don't want to deal with all these different parking garages.

[2078] But if you park at the Americana, you can get a car wash. I didn't know that until this morning.

[2079] Yeah.

[2080] Okay.

[2081] So we're on the motorcycle.

[2082] We go to the Hollywood Zara.

[2083] There's nothing for her.

[2084] And she said, well, you know, other Zaras have other options.

[2085] I go, so what's the next Zara?

[2086] So Zara's near me. Grove?

[2087] The Grove.

[2088] And you know me. You drove all the way to the grove.

[2089] Also, I just, I don't fuck with the grove.

[2090] That's too much shit for me. That's a lot of stimuli.

[2091] There's a lot of stuff.

[2092] So I'm like, all right, we're on the motorcycle.

[2093] Let's go.

[2094] Wow.

[2095] So we're driving down there.

[2096] We're coming down Fairfax.

[2097] And now it's kind of fun because she's like right over my shoulder hugging me, you know, or riding.

[2098] And I'm like, oh, every time I come down the street right here, I think of hanging out with Kareem.

[2099] We used to go after we would go out drinking to Domiano's pizza.

[2100] Yes, Domitos.

[2101] I knew you were going to say that.

[2102] And I love Don't know.

[2103] And he would eat pizza and I didn't because I didn't have any money.

[2104] So I would just watch him eat pizza.

[2105] And the way I would crave the Damiano's pizza because I couldn't afford it.

[2106] So now when I drive down that same stretch of street, I go like, oh, man, I could get anything I want at Damiano's now.

[2107] Which is I always get excited.

[2108] Well, I did discover that.

[2109] But I was in the middle of telling her all about, there's a lot happening, rapid fire.

[2110] Wait, can I pause really quick and tell Damiano story real quick because we're on it?

[2111] I also discovered it post -drinking with Rachel.

[2112] and we were trying to order dominoes.

[2113] We thought we were ordering dominoes and what arrived was dominoes.

[2114] And we thought it was probably going to be horrible because it was a rip -off of dominoes, which is already we know the standard of dominoes.

[2115] Sure, sure.

[2116] But then we loved it.

[2117] Domino's was awesome.

[2118] It was so good.

[2119] And they would bring huge tubs of ranch.

[2120] Yeah, it was New York -style pizza, huge slices.

[2121] They'd throw them in the oven.

[2122] I never had it, but I would watch Kareem eat it.

[2123] We would get it a lot.

[2124] Anyway, sorry, go on.

[2125] Yeah, it's a great.

[2126] I think in your 20, like, so I was having a lot of nostalgia.

[2127] Also, I'm realizing I haven't driven with Lincoln around my old, whatever, it's very nostalgic.

[2128] I had really good.

[2129] I was, remember I was kind of lamenting that I had had that challenging little weekend with Linky in Nashville.

[2130] Oh, before going to Nashville?

[2131] Yeah, when we were in Nashville and I came home and I was like, she and I can, like, really trigger each other because we're both sensitive in the same way.

[2132] We have just been on a honeymoon for like a few weeks.

[2133] That's great.

[2134] It's been so much fun.

[2135] Like we spent all day Saturday going shopping.

[2136] I told her we were in Zara and I'm holding clothes by a dressing room.

[2137] And I said to her, I am extending you a courtesy.

[2138] I've never extended to a girlfriend or a wife.

[2139] Yes.

[2140] I'm willing to sit here at this dressing room and hold your shit.

[2141] Did you enjoy it?

[2142] No, I don't like shit.

[2143] I get so exhausted when I walk in there and it's like, what are we looking at?

[2144] We're not.

[2145] We're just looking at everything.

[2146] It's so not how I operate.

[2147] I'm goal -oriented, right?

[2148] So it's like, if I need a pair of shoes, we go straight to the shoes, I only want to see shit that's got my shoe, you know, whatever.

[2149] Yeah.

[2150] It's so counter to my disposition.

[2151] But at any rate, then we wandered out of there, and she goes, I'm hungry.

[2152] And I go, let's get something neat.

[2153] And then we went into that farmer's market, which I've never been in.

[2154] Oh, yeah.

[2155] Oh, this, I blunder of, this almost ruined my entire weekend.

[2156] So we walk in, and I'm like, I need protein.

[2157] That's all I need.

[2158] And she wants pizza.

[2159] Great.

[2160] We walk in, first thing we see, bar.

[2161] barbecue restaurant, and then we see pizza joint.

[2162] I go, great.

[2163] Grab a slice.

[2164] I'll get some, some chicken, and we'll regroup.

[2165] I sit down, I eat, she eats her pizza, I eat this chicken and some ribs.

[2166] It's very below average.

[2167] I mean, it's a four.

[2168] I'm almost like bummed.

[2169] I'm eating it, but I need the protein.

[2170] That's what I'm thinking.

[2171] And as I'm finishing this really lackluster meal, and it was expensive, by the way, too.

[2172] The table directly next to me, a woman sits now with a huge platter of slices of corned beef, like the nicest looking corned beef I've ever seen on a plate.

[2173] And then her boyfriend sits down next to her, and he's got like a two -foot -tall hot pastrami sandwich also looks incredible, pouring over with Kohl's long, Russian dressing, Swiss cheese, the works.

[2174] And I go, guys, where did you get that?

[2175] And they go, oh, it's just right there.

[2176] Like, had we walked another three feet?

[2177] And then I'm telling Eric this yesterday, and he goes, oh, yeah, that place is supposed to be like the most legendary corn beef in the city.

[2178] Oh, no. And I was just so mad.

[2179] I had just spent all that money and ate all that garbage.

[2180] And if I had walked, now this is where my hatred for shopping bit me in the ass.

[2181] That's right.

[2182] I should have walked around the entire farmer's market, seeing everything that was there and then decided.

[2183] I'm like, that'll do.

[2184] I'm hungry.

[2185] I need protein.

[2186] Yeah.

[2187] And that was garbage.

[2188] Dang.

[2189] And you never go to the grove, so when will you be back?

[2190] Well, I'm going to go back and get that corn beef now.

[2191] You are.

[2192] Okay.

[2193] I mean, they were on the edge of orgasm eating this.

[2194] Dang, I want that.

[2195] It looks so good.

[2196] Did you buy an outfit?

[2197] No, because I'll be wearing all pink for lovers.

[2198] Okay.

[2199] And I had half of what I needed.

[2200] And then I told her, like, love, if it's okay, I'd like to just go online and get my remaining parcels.

[2201] And she joined me for the online shopping portion.

[2202] So we knocked out my outfit before we even left to go shopping.

[2203] Because I can't do it for her, but I can't go into a store and sniff around for pink.

[2204] I see.

[2205] Yeah, and then try on a bunch of different things to see what one fits right.

[2206] Did you, so did you, you have a pink shirt and pink pants?

[2207] I have pink shirt, pink pants that I just happened to have gotten accidentally.

[2208] Great.

[2209] Days before.

[2210] I have my pink jorties.

[2211] Those really rare ones.

[2212] Cute.

[2213] I almost never wear them because they're so rare.

[2214] Yeah.

[2215] So rare.

[2216] Too rare.

[2217] And then I'm going to wear my pink boys get sad too sweatshirt.

[2218] Cute Yeah I love that So I'll be I'll be pink head to toe That'll be And is she also gonna be Lovers?

[2219] She's blue She's bluish for 1989 She's 1989 Okay great Yeah Love it So we got her some blue sandals I mean we were keeping it a secret I know I haven't said the location though Yeah But you also did say A long time ago You were debating Yeah And then Well I've chosen to Yes Yes I've chosen an incredibly spoily trip.

[2220] Oh, it's going to be so special.

[2221] But once I actually started thinking about it, it has nothing to do with, like, I'm not going to deny myself a trip with her to go see Taylor Swift.

[2222] Yeah.

[2223] Yeah.

[2224] And it's a good time because she's changed up her set list now with the new album.

[2225] Well, Lincoln's optimistic that she might hear something from...

[2226] She will.

[2227] What's the DoorDash?

[2228] No, Tortured Poets Department.

[2229] DoorDash DoorDash Society Yeah Tortured Poets Department Yeah I gotta get hip to all this The tortured poets department A lot of people are doing TTPD That's helpful TTPD Yeah so Maybe we'll hear some tracks off that In Paris she did it And it was a big deal Oh really?

[2230] Yeah Oh I gotta add one thing Because I just said How spoiled she was I was sharing on here About lunch We talked a lot about lunch last time in elementary school oh yeah okay so then lincoln like came and said on the bed and i was writing she said what are you writing i said oh i'm writing about lunch what part about lunch and i said well i'm at the point where all these kids then would all of a sudden be in this like marketplace where they were trading and bartering and hostess pies for funyans and all this stuff and how i didn't get to participate and you know what i found out lincoln begs for food really because she doesn't have fun shit either she has vegetables and a She has healthy food.

[2231] Healthy crap.

[2232] I was delighted.

[2233] My kid is begging.

[2234] She said she begs for food.

[2235] She's like, oh, are you done with that?

[2236] Like, she's doing that.

[2237] Interesting.

[2238] In her classroom.

[2239] And I thought, okay, well, good.

[2240] At least she's doing some things that aren't totally entitled and spoiled.

[2241] Yeah.

[2242] What's her goal food?

[2243] What does she beg for?

[2244] I think she wants anything that comes in a fun package, just like I did.

[2245] Huh.

[2246] Yeah.

[2247] So I was like, oh, good.

[2248] This is like passed on a job.

[2249] generation.

[2250] She's a panhandler, too.

[2251] I mean, all kids want packaged shit.

[2252] I know, but I think there's a difference when you're trading straight up and when you're begging and you have nothing to offer.

[2253] So there's trading and that's like, that's only so humiliating.

[2254] That's not even humiliating.

[2255] That's just being a wheeler dealer.

[2256] And then there's begging.

[2257] And begging's humbling.

[2258] Sure.

[2259] And it's good for her, I think.

[2260] Like my, I heard that and I didn't think like, oh, I got to start buying her luncheables and fun shit to trade i was like that's right girl you fucking beg for some shit leverage some relationships yeah wheel deal be an agent because sometimes i could be an agent i could figure out how to get some stuff because i'd like i could put two sellers together that didn't either weren't friends or whatever so i often was the agent for people and then i got a little kickback out of it oh and then we drove home on melrose and i showed her the groundlings which i'd never shown her yeah it was a Yeah, a little tour.

[2261] There's a few things as fun as riding around a motorcycle with your little girl in L .A. Yeah.

[2262] Speaking of which, have you ever seen a baby praying mantis?

[2263] No. I hadn't either, but we have a couple of them living on our sauna.

[2264] Oh, my God.

[2265] And they're so cute.

[2266] I'm in a video of one.

[2267] They're so cute.

[2268] They're really baby little praying mantises.

[2269] Yeah.

[2270] Manti.

[2271] Do you think because Praying is in the title of Praying Mantis, We tend to like them more.

[2272] Like they feel safer.

[2273] Or sacred.

[2274] They're men or women of faith.

[2275] Yeah.

[2276] They're like little priests.

[2277] Because if you named anything devil bug, it'd have to be incredibly cute to overcome that title.

[2278] Well, I think that's why people like Ladybug because they like the name Ladybug.

[2279] But really, Ladybugs are disgusting.

[2280] No, they're polka.

[2281] I know.

[2282] I hate them.

[2283] I hate them.

[2284] That was one of my favorite jokes in The Simpsons of all time.

[2285] when Ned Flanders is telling his kids, like, don't worry, they're not dangerous.

[2286] They're like ladybugs.

[2287] And the kids go, ah, ladybugs!

[2288] They scream at the year.

[2289] That's funny.

[2290] Yeah, I don't like them.

[2291] I think one time, not I think, this did happen.

[2292] One time we had an infestation of them when I lived in Tennessee, and that scared me. Which is currently having a cicada infestation.

[2293] You are currently having?

[2294] Do you know that these cicadas, they, they, they, dormant for like 13 years some species and like 22 years and then they all hatch at the same time.

[2295] There was an article in New York Times about it.

[2296] And it's like in the trillions.

[2297] Oh my God.

[2298] Yeah.

[2299] And right now there's like two different cicada populations that have come to life.

[2300] This is their life.

[2301] They come out.

[2302] They fly somewhere.

[2303] Then they go burrow back down and then they have their kids.

[2304] And then that's it.

[2305] And then they're underground for 13 plus years.

[2306] And then they come out for this one rip.

[2307] Yeah.

[2308] So I got a picture from the contractors of the house.

[2309] house in Nashville, and it had rained for a solid week straight as well.

[2310] So the lake was up.

[2311] So far, it was 15 feet from the property line.

[2312] So the lake was swollen, and then there's cicadas dead all over the ground.

[2313] Oh, God.

[2314] And they said it was downright biblical over there.

[2315] Oh, my God.

[2316] Remember when we were in Sedona?

[2317] That was nuts.

[2318] That felt biblical.

[2319] What were those?

[2320] I have a hunch.

[2321] Those were termites.

[2322] Oh, God.

[2323] But they were flying.

[2324] There were so many out the windows leading to to the deck that you cannot see through the window.

[2325] And then when we went out in the morning, there was like six inches.

[2326] It was like ankle high of dead bugs.

[2327] Like, this is the apocalypse.

[2328] We were just sitting outside and all of a sudden there's like one and then two and then 30 ,000.

[2329] Just smashing into the windows.

[2330] Yeah, it was wild.

[2331] That was wild.

[2332] That's also the trip that Aaron cooked that steak for like an hour and a half.

[2333] You remember that he was on fire for an hour and a half.

[2334] happen.

[2335] It was still raw on the inside.

[2336] Oh, yeah.

[2337] Yeah, he blasted that baby.

[2338] That's also when Ryan got stuck on the mountain.

[2339] A lot happened on that trip.

[2340] That was a big trip.

[2341] I think that's also when we, we first tried the burger from Enchantment, the hotel.

[2342] We loved it.

[2343] We loved it.

[2344] A lot happened on that trip.

[2345] Okay.

[2346] So this is, oh, I wanted to bring something up.

[2347] Okay.

[2348] I started listening to a new podcast, and I really like it.

[2349] It's called two.

[2350] niche and it sees two women.

[2351] T -W -O or T -O -O?

[2352] T -O.

[2353] And it sees these two women.

[2354] They're really cool.

[2355] I've been listening for like a couple weeks.

[2356] And then I looked them up on Instagram and their faces were shocking compared to what I had imagined.

[2357] And it really messed me up.

[2358] And what were you imagining and what were their faces?

[2359] Their faces are beautiful.

[2360] It's not It's not that there was something...

[2361] Was it an age thing?

[2362] No, it is just, especially one of them, I had a picture in my head of her.

[2363] I just, like, made up a picture that I thought matched the voice.

[2364] Was there an ethnicity thing?

[2365] No. It was just features completely were so off.

[2366] Askew from what you had imagined.

[2367] And now I want to remove the real life, really bad.

[2368] I'm putting a lot of effort to forget and to go back to my original.

[2369] picture and you must have dealt with this with terence posner as well at one point because you had already imagined what terence posner looked like and then the movies came out sure or have you gone back and rewritten all your memories where you think you were always picturing no i definitely wasn't gordon daniel radcliffe i'm sure once the movie started coming out i'm sure i adjusted to the actors we should have asked charon about this our memory expert Oh, yeah, we should have.

[2370] Because I bet you can't remember anymore what you originally pictured Terence Posner to look like.

[2371] Yeah.

[2372] That's a bummer.

[2373] Anyway, so I can't go back.

[2374] Oh.

[2375] Do you not like the podcast now?

[2376] I still really, really like it.

[2377] But it is messing with me. And it was, of course, funny because obviously that happens here.

[2378] That must happen.

[2379] Not with you.

[2380] Yeah.

[2381] Because everyone knows what you look like.

[2382] Right.

[2383] But with me, I bet.

[2384] I bet at the beginning.

[2385] But if you don't follow us on Instagram and you're only, like, listening, you have an idea of what I look like, and then I'm sure what I actually look like is probably different.

[2386] And it might fuck you up.

[2387] Well, that's happened to you write it in the comments.

[2388] I'll read about it.

[2389] And I'll tell you whether or not that's happened.

[2390] It's a weird thing.

[2391] And don't just say she looks different.

[2392] I want to know how she looks different.

[2393] Well, it's hard to say because even with these women, I knew some stuff about them.

[2394] Like, I knew one had brown hair and what had blonde hair.

[2395] Like, I was filling in appropriate.

[2396] clues.

[2397] But I think my imagination is just very vivid.

[2398] Like, I create a real person.

[2399] Oh, yeah.

[2400] And then obviously, that can't be them.

[2401] They look beautiful.

[2402] In fact, I think they look better.

[2403] They look too good for you.

[2404] Yeah.

[2405] Yeah.

[2406] Yeah.

[2407] Trying to think I've had that experience.

[2408] I can only think of the other ones, the kind of famous, mean ones.

[2409] The case that epitomizes, This is poor Christopher Cross.

[2410] Saly takes me away to wear it.

[2411] And all these women were in love with Christopher Cross.

[2412] His music was romantic and it was loving and it spoke to them.

[2413] He was not allowed to be on any of the album covers per the label.

[2414] Oh.

[2415] Because he did not match.

[2416] He was bald.

[2417] Oh, that's a little bit chubskiy.

[2418] Yes.

[2419] And so he just had to be anonymously making these songs because women were picturing like Fabio or something.

[2420] Wow.

[2421] Yeah.

[2422] That's really interesting.

[2423] But like if when you listen to the Daily, do you know what?

[2424] Jad operant?

[2425] No. No, that's.

[2426] Yeah.

[2427] Radio Lab.

[2428] But even even yeah.

[2429] I have an idea of what he looks like, but it's totally in my mind.

[2430] I'm Michael Bubara.

[2431] Yeah, I have an image of him.

[2432] Yeah.

[2433] But I have no clue what he looks like.

[2434] Same.

[2435] And if I find out, I think it will mess me up.

[2436] Okay.

[2437] Here's the thing on the Daily if we're talking about the Daily.

[2438] And And look, we've been accused of it, and I think we're guilty of it, that somehow we've developed the same laugh, right?

[2439] This is what people are saying.

[2440] I'm inclined to believe them.

[2441] Michael Barbaro has another host that when he's not there, she's there.

[2442] Sabrina Taverny.

[2443] They both, they have the exact same, like, strongly punctuated each word.

[2444] Yeah, rhythm.

[2445] Yes.

[2446] I haven't noticed that, but it makes sense.

[2447] Yeah.

[2448] I mean, it's probably just part of the tone.

[2449] And if this gets to Sabrina or Michael, again, I just want to remind you that I'm acknowledging you and I are guilty of it.

[2450] Yeah.

[2451] So I'm not accusing them of anything that hasn't happened to us.

[2452] I think it's just tone.

[2453] It's tone of the show.

[2454] They're probably, they're also journalists, so they're doing it a little differently.

[2455] It's really hard for me to resist to do more of it, but I know.

[2456] Okay.

[2457] Yeah.

[2458] Yeah.

[2459] I know it's not.

[2460] I don't think.

[2461] It's not for you.

[2462] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't like it if they were doing our voices.

[2463] But we can do impersonations of.

[2464] actors.

[2465] I'm just curious that Because it doesn't sound good.

[2466] Well, that's what you...

[2467] Well, do you think anyone's going to hear what you just didn't think it sounded good?

[2468] Well, pleasing at all?

[2469] Well, I don't know.

[2470] Does Schwarzenegger sound pleasing or is it just sound like Schwarzenegger?

[2471] I don't know if there's an implicit judgment call in it.

[2472] I mean, yeah.

[2473] I guess I'm just being empathetic that I wouldn't want them to be doing me ever.

[2474] I don't want anyone ever to do my voice.

[2475] Right.

[2476] Well, because, Zinski and Ed Helms do an impersonation of me. And my assumption isn't they're doing it because it sounds ridiculous.

[2477] My assumption is they're doing it because it's specific enough for them to do it.

[2478] Yeah.

[2479] I don't think they're making fun of me. Maybe on insecure days, I might think that.

[2480] Sure.

[2481] But in general, I don't think so.

[2482] Yeah.

[2483] Because I'm not making fun of McConaughey.

[2484] I want to get a steak.

[2485] What's stack you like?

[2486] You like a rib -eye?

[2487] You like trotette?

[2488] I had steak yesterday.

[2489] You like skirt steak?

[2490] What kind of steak, Jeff?

[2491] Filet.

[2492] Filet mignon.

[2493] Center cut?

[2494] Six ounce or eight ounce?

[2495] Eight.

[2496] Eight ounce, big girl, big appetite.

[2497] Oh, gross.

[2498] Where did you have a filet?

[2499] We went to a steakhouse for Mother's Day.

[2500] Oh, you did?

[2501] Is it hard to get a reservation there in Duluth?

[2502] I don't know if it's hard, but my mom made a reservation a long time ago.

[2503] Oh, come.

[2504] When she knew we were coming in town.

[2505] Okay.

[2506] Oh, that's sweet.

[2507] It is.

[2508] She was excited.

[2509] Mother's Day here was a hit again.

[2510] Great.

[2511] I take these kids.

[2512] I get them the fuck out of here.

[2513] To remind people, it's Father's Day, Mother's Day.

[2514] What's that mean?

[2515] Father's Day, conventionally, traditionally, historically, in this country, dads get to go fucking golfing for like eight hours with their bros. Right.

[2516] That's how they celebrate Father's Day.

[2517] And moms have to sit with all their kids at a super noisy restaurant that was impossible to get into and deal with the kids and it's not a thank you to the moms at all.

[2518] Yeah, right.

[2519] Yeah, so like six years ago, I was like, listen, this is my gift to you.

[2520] You're going to have Father's Day, Mother's Days, from here on out.

[2521] You don't have to see the kids on this day.

[2522] See them in the morning.

[2523] We'll make you a cute, terrible breakfast.

[2524] Yep.

[2525] And then we'll get the fuck out of here.

[2526] You get your nails did.

[2527] You get a face massage and you get a body massage.

[2528] Nice.

[2529] And there were a couple first -time moms that got to join.

[2530] Well, we'll hear from one of them this week.

[2531] We're going to interview one of them.

[2532] Oh.

[2533] Yeah.

[2534] Yeah, she's had so much fun, she said, if I would have known this was on the table, I would have had a kid five years ago.

[2535] That's fun.

[2536] Well, good.

[2537] I'm glad they enjoyed.

[2538] Okay, this is for Sanjay.

[2539] Great episode.

[2540] Love him, per usual.

[2541] What a prince he is.

[2542] He is.

[2543] He needs, well, he's a best boy, but also we might need a category of Prince boy.

[2544] Oh, wow.

[2545] The history of the BMI.

[2546] Body mass index?

[2547] Uh -huh.

[2548] This is from medical news.

[2549] today.

[2550] It's derived from a simple math formula created in the 1830s by Lambert Adolf Jacques Kretel, a Belgian astronomer, mathematician, statistician, and sociologist.

[2551] Researchers and population studies, doctors, personal trainers, and others use the BMI in their work.

[2552] However, BMI has some important flaws.

[2553] For example, it does not measure overall fat or lean tissue muscle content.

[2554] It aims to estimate whether a person has a healthy weight by dividing their weight in kilograms by their height in meters squared.

[2555] Yeah, that's why it's a little misleading.

[2556] Like Charlie, who's healthy as a horse, his BMI is problematic because he has so much muscle.

[2557] So he weighs a lot.

[2558] Right.

[2559] Minds even skews heavy on the BMI index unless you factor and then, yeah, body lean mass percentage and all that stuff.

[2560] Yeah, and then Sanjay said it wasn't ever tested for women or children.

[2561] So do you monitor your blood sugar?

[2562] No. But you never have any issues when you get your blood taken and stuff.

[2563] Because I don't eat gluten and most of the things I'm allergic to and that I don't eat are starches.

[2564] And so since I eat mostly either protein or vegetables, I don't.

[2565] You're not at risk.

[2566] The only thing I eat that could spike my insulin would be rice, but then I got that low glycemic rice.

[2567] But we have friends who monitor it, and it's been really helpful for them.

[2568] Yeah, it's interesting.

[2569] I mean, my dad monitors it because he's pre -diabetic.

[2570] Does he wear the little arm patch like Kristen?

[2571] No, he doesn't want to do a continuous monitoring.

[2572] He checks it every day.

[2573] But it is interesting to see how much it fluctuates.

[2574] Yeah.

[2575] Well, when Kristen was wearing it, she'd get alerts.

[2576] Mostly, though, that her blood sugar was too low.

[2577] Right.

[2578] But I think it's designed that thing for diabetics where they're prone to have a real issue.

[2579] Yes, exactly.

[2580] So I think the range is different.

[2581] Yeah, my grandfather had diabetes.

[2582] And, yeah, there were some scary situations where it would get too low.

[2583] I've been with my cousin when his got too low and it's really scary.

[2584] The cognition stops.

[2585] Exactly.

[2586] Yeah.

[2587] Which is almost like depression in that same way where it's like, how are you to combat it if the first symptom you experience is groginess and the lack of clarity of thinking and now you've got to because we were it was funny enough at christin's old house i had taken him up there and we're sitting there and all of a sudden he just kind of looks at him and he's like i need like orange you can barely get out like i need orange juice and if i had been in the bathroom at that point and i came back yeah because he has gone unconscious from it isn't there a movie where that happens Oh, Steele Magnolias, and she dies.

[2588] Oh.

[2589] She dies.

[2590] Really sad movie.

[2591] What's the saddest movie you've ever seen?

[2592] Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

[2593] It's the one I cried the most.

[2594] Yeah.

[2595] What about Interstellar?

[2596] Yeah, that one I cried.

[2597] But then it ends up being...

[2598] Okay.

[2599] Yeah.

[2600] I think it's all about what you connect the movie to personally.

[2601] Yeah, that's why I ask.

[2602] Yeah, and I happen to see Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mine after Brin and I broke up, when they were flashing back to them falling.

[2603] in love and they were just in a tent with a flashlight and they were doing all this simple stuff that poor people do and we were poor people yeah and there's that great scene at the end or he's like but i'll annoy you and you'll do this and i'll do this like they already know the pattern if they get back together and he's like yeah okay i still want to like a christ's thinking about it yeah it's really sweet what's your saddest movie feel magnolia no I mean, it is a very sad movie, but...

[2604] Her made me really sad, too.

[2605] What made me love sick and sad?

[2606] Her is just melancholy.

[2607] I mean, the whole thing is very melancholy, the tone of it is.

[2608] But one of, I don't know what the main one is, but one of them is 50 First Dates.

[2609] Oh, wow.

[2610] With Adam Sandler?

[2611] Yeah, and Drew Barrymore.

[2612] Wow, that one.

[2613] Yeah, because she keeps forgetting him.

[2614] And every day he's, like, committed to falling in love every day.

[2615] Yeah.

[2616] It's so sweet.

[2617] He was in like basically a narcissist relationship.

[2618] Like he spent his whole day trying to regulate her.

[2619] No, but no, because he loves her and he'll do anything.

[2620] It's probably unhealthy relationship though.

[2621] If you have to rewain over the person.

[2622] She had a disease.

[2623] I know.

[2624] It wasn't like.

[2625] It's not her fault.

[2626] Yeah, so I don't think it's unhealthy.

[2627] She wasn't like I don't, well, I don't remember the, it's been a long time since I've seen it.

[2628] If the goal is unconditional love in a relationship and every day you're a clean slate and you have to win someone back over and get them to fall in with you that doesn't sound like a great relationship well unconditional love he has unconditional love he's just like I love this person no matter what and I'm gonna show up every day and yeah that's nice yeah I like that it's sad well the sad version that's a reality and not the movie the movie's a metaphor for Alzheimer's I know that's why it's horrifying and sad yeah and I hate it do you think when they were trying to crack that story they're like what's a fun version version of Alzheimer's.

[2629] Maybe.

[2630] They did it.

[2631] Oh, ding, ding, ding.

[2632] What?

[2633] Sanjay.

[2634] Oh, my God.

[2635] You're right.

[2636] You're right.

[2637] You're right.

[2638] Surprising you didn't bring that movie up.

[2639] I'm going to look up.

[2640] What are the saddest movies of all time?

[2641] Okay.

[2642] Manchester by the Sea.

[2643] Oh, that one is.

[2644] And Blue Valentine.

[2645] Has anyone seen that?

[2646] Yep.

[2647] Oh.

[2648] Wow.

[2649] Yeah, Manchester by the Sea was really sad.

[2650] Okay.

[2651] Dill Alice.

[2652] I never saw that, but, yeah.

[2653] Yeah, no, thank you.

[2654] That's Alzheimer's as well.

[2655] Oh, ding, ding, dang.

[2656] May December.

[2657] No. Uh -oh.

[2658] What?

[2659] Esquire.

[2660] Esquire.

[2661] That one feels like they got paid to put that in there.

[2662] Like that's an ad.

[2663] Pursuit of happiness, very sad.

[2664] Oh, past lives.

[2665] So, so, so sad.

[2666] What is that?

[2667] It was from last year.

[2668] It's, again, for me, the saddest movies, are not the steel magnolias they're these like real life just can't you just can't tell me what past lives is it's Greta Lee uh no the story I know I know I know I was just for people listening okay Greta Lee um said in Seattle basically they this couple falls in love and then they lose touch over time okay and you know you're following her and her new life, and then they reconnect.

[2669] It's very mundane.

[2670] It's like a very mundane story, but it's just the reality that life doesn't work out the way you want it to all the time.

[2671] I mean, Jess and I were bawling.

[2672] Okay.

[2673] It's a really good movie.

[2674] And everyone I know has seen it is just like you're distraught after.

[2675] I think that is indicative of how beautiful the story is, because if it has that kind of impact and it's pretty inconsequential, like it's just, you're just watching someone's life and things don't work out.

[2676] I really liked family man for that reason.

[2677] Yeah.

[2678] I do.

[2679] I loved that movie, but I do forget it.

[2680] Yeah, it was like Nick Cage was a rich billionaire guy.

[2681] Yeah.

[2682] And then some magic happens and he finds himself married to like his high school sweetheart and he's living in like a very blue collar existence.

[2683] Yeah.

[2684] And he's of course completely upset and he wants to get back to his Ferrari and his penthouse.

[2685] And then throughout the course of it, he realizes he loves it what's important and then i think he has to go back but he doesn't want to oh uh -huh can he does it end happy it must i know um Dallas buyers club loss in translation I wouldn't say that to me that's not sad isn't that's a fun squire Ocio magnolias okay well this is not a great list minus past lives was a good one they picked About 50 -50, they got him.

[2686] Yeah.

[2687] Yes.

[2688] My gas.

[2689] What do you mean?

[2690] She'll never let go.

[2691] Oh, my God.

[2692] It's so fun.

[2693] That was an adventure.

[2694] Oh, my God.

[2695] I guess it does have a rough ending.

[2696] All right.

[2697] Anywho, that was an interesting sidebar.

[2698] Oh, Fruitvale Station.

[2699] That was sad.

[2700] Yeah, that one was rough.

[2701] Yeah.

[2702] That was roughy.

[2703] I love that movie, though.

[2704] I love her, Melanie Diaz.

[2705] Greta Lee?

[2706] No. No, no, no. Yeah, Melanie Dioz is right.

[2707] Yeah.

[2708] That was one of the best performances ever.

[2709] So.

[2710] Back to Sanjay.

[2711] Yeah.

[2712] Okay.

[2713] He said he wonders if it's us being South Asian that has more metabolic disease.

[2714] And it reminded me that Bill Gates told us that.

[2715] And I remember he told us why and I don't.

[2716] Are you talking about the male nourishment part?

[2717] Because he was telling us about the malnourishment parts.

[2718] What do he say?

[2719] Well, India, which is much better now when they started, it was tied.

[2720] But, like, he was saying in Africa, it's something like 40 % of folks are malnourished to a degree that they won't fully develop what they were supposed to develop.

[2721] And that India is still a double -digit percentage.

[2722] Oh, maybe that was that.

[2723] I thought he was saying more like...

[2724] There's metabolic diseases like diabetes and stuff.

[2725] But it is based in something, maybe malnourishment.

[2726] Maybe it's like because we were.

[2727] were malnourished for so long.

[2728] And now there's food abundance.

[2729] Right.

[2730] Yeah, that's really common in these.

[2731] There's an overeating thing maybe.

[2732] I don't know.

[2733] Sorry, Bill.

[2734] Also, we were there, but certainly didn't compare to America.

[2735] But it doesn't look the same.

[2736] That's the thing.

[2737] It's like my grandpa was rail thin and had diabetes.

[2738] Oh, interesting.

[2739] And my dad is pre -diabetic.

[2740] And, like, I have high cholesterol.

[2741] I've had it since I was a kid.

[2742] Yeah.

[2743] But, yeah, it said South Asians are at higher risk for type two.

[2744] diabetes, up to four times higher than other ethnic groups.

[2745] Whoa.

[2746] Probably due to a combination of genetics and environment.

[2747] Recent studies have shown that South Asian diets high in refined carbohydrates are associated with diabetes risk factors.

[2748] Diabetus.

[2749] Yeah.

[2750] This is Wilford Brimley.

[2751] Get your blood sugar checked regularly and keep your eye on diabetes.

[2752] You know that's how he says it.

[2753] Yeah, you did him in groundings.

[2754] Uh -huh.

[2755] But there's also a lot of memes going around and they spell it.

[2756] Diabitis.

[2757] Diabitis.

[2758] It's just so funny to be the spokesperson for diabetes and say it wrong.

[2759] It's kind of cool.

[2760] It's a very southern way of saying it, right?

[2761] Is he Southern?

[2762] You know, funny enough, I think he's one of these guys that is not Southern but is.

[2763] Like even our friend Sam Elliott, who's from, like, Sacramento.

[2764] Oh, right.

[2765] But we think of him as being Southern.

[2766] Right.

[2767] And I want to say, well, for Brimley, might even be from Colorado or something.

[2768] Utah.

[2769] There we go.

[2770] He's from Utah.

[2771] Yeah.

[2772] But where he's from in Utah, you got to.

[2773] Keep your eye on it.

[2774] Hit your knees and say some prayers.

[2775] Do six hours of prayers every morning.

[2776] He was just very, he had an intrinsic judgmentalness to his.

[2777] That's why when Aaron and I talk like him for hours, it's all about the prayers.

[2778] When you wake up in the morning, you want you to hit your knees and do a few hours of prayers.

[2779] Get some physical exercise.

[2780] Eat some quaker oats oatmeal.

[2781] Back into your bedroom, hit your knees.

[2782] Checking on with the Lord, three, four hours of prayers.

[2783] Was he religious?

[2784] Or you guys just decided.

[2785] He was just pious.

[2786] Okay.

[2787] I doubt he was religious himself, but this is like a lot of, a lot of people urge others to be super religious and they themselves are not.

[2788] Well, sure.

[2789] That's very common.

[2790] Or Hulk Hogan.

[2791] He's like, take your vitamins, say no to drugs.

[2792] Yeah, yikes.

[2793] Vitamins, prayers, and something else.

[2794] He said that?

[2795] Yeah, that was his slogan.

[2796] Oh, my.

[2797] And he was not doing a lot of praying.

[2798] No, I don't think so.

[2799] He wasn't.

[2800] Well, because we don't know.

[2801] He was taking vitamin testosterone.

[2802] Sure.

[2803] All these other.

[2804] Playing it fast and loose with vitamins.

[2805] Yes, and prayers.

[2806] And probably prayers, yeah.

[2807] Do you think it's unethical to pray for certain things?

[2808] I'm not the right person to ask.

[2809] Yeah.

[2810] Because it's like you're wishing on a star, in my opinion.

[2811] So if you're wishing on a star, you're obligated to wish for someone else, something good to happen to someone else.

[2812] Oh, I mean, I guess it doesn't have to be that, but is it okay to pray?

[2813] To be rich?

[2814] Right.

[2815] Right.

[2816] Like, it's okay to wish on a star to be rich, but it's not okay to pray to be rich.

[2817] Yeah, which is interesting.

[2818] It is.

[2819] When I did my prayers, I would have felt guilty praying for something like that.

[2820] Self -serving.

[2821] But yeah, all my wishes, birthday candle wishes, were self -serving.

[2822] Well, I think because the premise of the religion itself is like to be not self -serving and not self -centered.

[2823] It's to be selfless and compassion.

[2824] I guess so.

[2825] So it feels antithetical to the person you're praying to, where stars are all about getting rich.

[2826] And so are birthday candles.

[2827] Yeah, yeah.

[2828] I think it's because even if you don't believe in God, like, I wasn't Christian.

[2829] I was just made up these prayers to this random God I made up.

[2830] Right.

[2831] But there's something that if you're praying, you believe, something real is hearing you.

[2832] So are you really going to waste this on, on being?

[2833] being rich, or are you going to try to save it for, like, everyone living to be 80 years old or older?

[2834] Yeah.

[2835] You know, but then the birthday candles.

[2836] Why is there a limit?

[2837] Why can't, like, why is there, why not make 50 prayers?

[2838] One of them being, I want a really cool off -road truck.

[2839] You know, why can't you do it all?

[2840] Yeah.

[2841] I mainly save that for 11 -11, birthday candle.

[2842] Stars.

[2843] Pennies.

[2844] Uh -huh.

[2845] Wishing well.

[2846] Yeah.

[2847] I think we think that's more random.

[2848] That's more luck.

[2849] The other thing is real, even though it's, you know, well, for some people, believe what you want to believe.

[2850] But, yeah.

[2851] It's curious.

[2852] The power of spirituality.

[2853] We have a lot of arbitrariness in our behavior.

[2854] Yeah.

[2855] Yeah.

[2856] Okay.

[2857] Emmanuel Kant, the quote he said is from in his critique of pure reason.

[2858] Will you repeat it?

[2859] Because it was really good and I was trying to remember it a few days later and I couldn't.

[2860] Yes.

[2861] False confidence bred from an ignorant.

[2862] of the probabilistic nature of the world, from a desire to see black and white where we should rightly see gray.

[2863] I, of course, learned all about Kant and philosophy class, but I haven't actually sat down and read any of his books, and I'm more and more inclined to.

[2864] Today, later today, we're doing a trick, sort of.

[2865] Yeah.

[2866] A frozen...

[2867] I told everyone at Allison's live show about this.

[2868] Uh -huh.

[2869] We're doing a frozen food episode of Fightless Bird.

[2870] David and I went to the grocery store to pick out all the frozen meals and he was just going to try some but then there were so many that he needed to try so many classics and so the cart was just filling up and filling up and it was like how are we gonna how Whose freezer is all this stuff?

[2871] Mine it's all...

[2872] Yeah, it did fit.

[2873] Okay.

[2874] So we thought we should invite other people to help eat it and then David had the idea to replayed it.

[2875] Do the Folgers Challenge.

[2876] We've replaced the coffee in this five -star restaurant with Folgers Crystals.

[2877] Let's see if anyone notices.

[2878] Sir, what do you think of the coffee?

[2879] Oh my God, it's the best coffee I've had in years.

[2880] What if we told you was Folgers?

[2881] No. That's every commercial.

[2882] Yeah, they can't believe it.

[2883] Did anyone say, ooh, it's Folgers?

[2884] They probably didn't include those reactions in the commercial.

[2885] Yeah, it's not very, it doesn't have much integrity, those commercials.

[2886] Great rabbit hole to go down, by the way.

[2887] Folders, commercials.

[2888] Because there was a whole decade of those.

[2889] they were replacing the coffee in these fine restaurants with Folgers Crystals.

[2890] It's great content.

[2891] Yeah.

[2892] And then there's, of course, the best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup.

[2893] Or the guy's crying about it.

[2894] And then there's this really famous one between a brother and sister that people really, there's about a thousand remakes of it.

[2895] Because it seems like they're dating.

[2896] Like the sisters in the kitchen and she looks.

[2897] up and she's like, David, you're home from college?

[2898] And he's like, yeah, I came.

[2899] Let's have some Folgers Christmas.

[2900] But it's a very weird commercial.

[2901] It's very strange.

[2902] Interesting.

[2903] Yeah, maybe a mess.

[2904] Well, anyway, so, so David had the idea to replayed it once it's cooked, invite people over, and see if they can tell if it's frozen or not, which I love the idea.

[2905] So then I invited a bunch of people And I immediately felt so guilty You did Yeah And I thought I don't think I can go through with this Okay So I now told everyone except one person Oh geez Well that's the worst Possible outcome If you had done 50 -50 that would I meant to do two people But then it turns out I accidentally told the first person already So it sounds like you're going to have to tell the last person So I don't feel like the dumb dumb at them I know to invite one more person that doesn't know.

[2906] Yeah, because you need to, you need a control group in a, you know, It's Jess, and like, I think he'll be fine with it because it's Jess.

[2907] Yeah.

[2908] The problem is, it has to be someone who's not going to be mad at me that I did this.

[2909] Okay, so here would be an interesting line of inquiry for you to self -examine.

[2910] Okay.

[2911] Do you think you told those people because you were afraid they would feel tricked versus you just can't bear to think that they would think you cook this?

[2912] frozen garbage.

[2913] No, because I will tell them.

[2914] Right, but it was even the thought of like an hour of the meal where they're like, wow, this is what Monica cooked?

[2915] No. That wasn't in there.

[2916] I was thrilled about that, but you know, I text some of the girls and invited them and then there's like, any excuse to have your cooking?

[2917] I'm like, oh, fuck.

[2918] Like, because they aren't going to like it probably and they're expecting dinner.

[2919] So I just started to feel like this was unethical, but Jess will like.

[2920] I like it.

[2921] Sure, absolutely.

[2922] And all like it.

[2923] I love that stover's lasagna.

[2924] Yeah, it's delicious.

[2925] Marie Caleders.

[2926] When you think frozen food, what comes to your mind?

[2927] Frozen pizzas, Ginos and titinos.

[2928] Tatinos.

[2929] Those were my favorite.

[2930] Did you ever have the pizza rolls?

[2931] I bought those.

[2932] Those are good, but I didn't like that they would always put one cut pepper in there.

[2933] There's always like one cube of pepper.

[2934] No, green pepper.

[2935] Oh, I hate that one cube of green pepper.

[2936] I've never had that.

[2937] You don't know what I'm talking about?

[2938] Look for it tonight.

[2939] Okay.

[2940] It should not be in there.

[2941] Every single one or like one in the whole package?

[2942] No, no, that would be great.

[2943] And then that's like you win.

[2944] It's like the baby and the cake.

[2945] And don't sue me, whoever the makers of those pizza.

[2946] They can't see if you just don't like it.

[2947] Well, no, I'm claiming that they all have a chunk of green pepper in them.

[2948] And I was always like, what is this thing doing?

[2949] It's almost like eating a something with a pit or like you're waiting to find the pit.

[2950] Did you, though, would you have...

[2951] When you look this up, Robinson, the ingredients?

[2952] Did you have a certain flavor or something?

[2953] Probably pepperoni.

[2954] If I'm going to eat any pizza, I would want it to...

[2955] I think I probably only bought the cheese ones.

[2956] I am a little worried about how I'm going to stagger the cooking.

[2957] I am too, because that oven, although most of this is $4 .25, right?

[2958] Isn't that kind of the standard in the frozen food game?

[2959] Maybe.

[2960] The stofers lasagna is huge and the mac and cheese.

[2961] Yeah.

[2962] It's family size.

[2963] People will know the mac and cheese is frozen.

[2964] That's the most giveaway one.

[2965] Yeah, it tastes the same.

[2966] I wonder, though.

[2967] You think they think you made pizza rolls?

[2968] Okay, so that's the problem.

[2969] There's going to be, and like the dino chicken nuggets, like, it's going to be a little bit of a giveaway.

[2970] But I. Did you get any Boston Market frozen?

[2971] I think Boston Market had a line.

[2972] They did have a line.

[2973] Meat love, mashed potatoes.

[2974] I didn't get that.

[2975] That was not a part of my childhood.

[2976] I mean, Boston Market was, but not frozen.

[2977] I think that happened later.

[2978] I think they transitioned more into a frozen food company than a brick and mortar.

[2979] Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[2980] I haven't seen one in a while, brick and mortar.

[2981] I think the Supreme's had a random pepper in it.

[2982] Are you sure that's not?

[2983] I mean, if it had a green pepper in it or a red pepper, then, yeah, I guess that's the one I had.

[2984] Yeah, green sweet pepper.

[2985] Oh, fuck that.

[2986] I feel so vindicated, though.

[2987] I'm glad I didn't imagine that.

[2988] Who bought Supremant?

[2989] It kept me from, they were perfect other than that.

[2990] But for me, when I was younger, a chunk of green pepper was, like, throw everything out.

[2991] That's all I tasted for the rest of the night.

[2992] Well, anyway, we'll see how it goes.

[2993] Is it not, do I need to tell him?

[2994] No, I'm not going to.

[2995] Yeah.

[2996] I think the mac and cheese, that's funny.

[2997] I think the mac and cheese will actually be, if I serve it in a beautiful bowl, I think people could, no. See, this isn't why I shouldn't have told anyone, because I really would have found out.

[2998] You know, I love macaroni and cheese so much.

[2999] Yeah.

[3000] And I could tell you about every kind of.

[3001] box macaron cheese.

[3002] I've had them all and I have a total ranking of them.

[3003] Yeah.

[3004] I have never had a frozen one, which is not to say I haven't eaten them.

[3005] Yeah.

[3006] I've eaten them.

[3007] The noodles suck.

[3008] Mmm.

[3009] I love it.

[3010] You really like it.

[3011] I loved it.

[3012] I haven't had it in years and so I am worried, but they brought back.

[3013] So I have a very visceral memory of the stove for's macaroni and cheese with broccoli.

[3014] I would have it at my grandparents' house all the time and I loved it.

[3015] And then they discontinued the one with broccoli.

[3016] And it's back.

[3017] It is.

[3018] So I bought it.

[3019] Are you going to add any like?

[3020] Spruza?

[3021] That would be a cheat.

[3022] Yeah.

[3023] No, that's a cheat.

[3024] No. You can't put real cheese on top.

[3025] But just like a little bit for.

[3026] Garnish?

[3027] Garnish.

[3028] No. I'm only now tricking one person.

[3029] So no. I'm not doing that.

[3030] I also want David to try it as is.

[3031] He also picked the very worst person to trick because that person has more experience with this frozen food, then anyone that'll be there.

[3032] So if anyone would be able to sniff out all these different things, it's going to be him.

[3033] But he also doesn't have, like, he's not hoity -toity.

[3034] I know he's not.

[3035] So I kind of think if he sees it in another bowl, he's just going to think I made it.

[3036] I mean, we'll see.

[3037] You'll see.

[3038] You'll see.

[3039] My hunch is he's going to know exactly what it is.

[3040] Yeah, because maybe Erica, I mean, she grew up Mormon in upper class.

[3041] She's probably never had this.

[3042] But she's not going to be like, she's not going to see this fucking fish sticks and be like, you made this?

[3043] I think Jeff might believe that I made it.

[3044] I don't know that the premise should have been you made it as much as I ordered food or not.

[3045] Oh.

[3046] Because no one's going to believe you breaded fish, white fish, and then had a deep fryer in your kitchen and all this.

[3047] How am I going to do?

[3048] I'm just going to have, because some of them are individual fishes.

[3049] Yeah, that's like a tiny, You might need to think about your premise a little more and pivot to like you're just hosting a dinner party with frozen food.

[3050] Well, that's what I told everyone but Jess.

[3051] Yeah, but just the like tasters test portion, the Folgers Crystles part, I don't know is achievable at this point.

[3052] You would have needed real food and frozen food all intermixed and there's 10 people that are totally unsuspecting.

[3053] You're like, I ordered from this great new place, you know, um, Villan Vonnys.

[3054] Yeah.

[3055] And then I let everyone eat everything and then just go like, who had favorites?

[3056] What was your favorite?

[3057] What was the blah, blah, blah.

[3058] Oh, that's interesting.

[3059] What made everyone's top three was Stouffer's macaroni and cheese.

[3060] I know, but I just couldn't lie to all those people.

[3061] It was too much for you.

[3062] It ended up being too much.

[3063] I didn't expect that for myself.

[3064] Right.

[3065] Because it felt like it was going to be a really fun game.

[3066] but I've been hard to time and do all of that too I mean I'm so gonna attempt some of it's going in the microwave I mean that's the original way to do it yeah that's the traditional way I'm gonna have some for lunch I'm gonna have something for lunch first frozen take up something well you're gonna have gas then by dinner have you thought about that for your dinner party I don't know what to do anyway it'll be great but David has to try all of it like this is important Swedish meatballs All the pizzas We got so many pizzas Again you can't play off those fucking pizzas If you ordered them from You rolled the dough Because I made them I made them Oh you made it no Yeah I made it all This premise you should have Workshop the premise a little better Yeah Anywho A little bit science behind acquired taste Because he didn't like coffee And then now he does We talked a little bit about that repeated exposure decreases our intensity of taste perception.

[3067] Oh, okay.

[3068] So this plays a significant role in the development of acquired tastes.

[3069] Familiarity with certain flavors gradually diminishes our initial unappealing reaction to certain dishes.

[3070] Probably the more times you eat frozen food.

[3071] Well, we talked about sticking with coffee.

[3072] Like, no one likes coffee the first time they have it.

[3073] It tastes like shit.

[3074] And then you come to love it.

[3075] Is there a food like that for you?

[3076] Because I have one that I kept sticking with.

[3077] I think I've said it on here before, but cottage cheese.

[3078] I would see cottage cheese on the Elias Brothers Big Boys salad bar.

[3079] Yeah, not dollars.

[3080] And it always looks so good.

[3081] Yeah, I love the way it looks.

[3082] Yeah, and in a big vat, it just always look good.

[3083] And I would keep trying it.

[3084] And every time I'd be like, ugh, no, I hate it.

[3085] Yeah.

[3086] And then I just cap at it.

[3087] And one time I covered it in pepper and had a bite and I was like, okay, here we go.

[3088] Uh -huh.

[3089] And now I love it.

[3090] I love it too.

[3091] Or I like it a lot now.

[3092] and I also didn't like it.

[3093] But part of it is just growing up and being more interested in eating well.

[3094] And so then we see it differently.

[3095] Yeah, I agree.

[3096] But other than that, Rob, have you always liked all the weird shit you like?

[3097] Because I think you of all people like everything.

[3098] No, I did not.

[3099] I was super picky as a kid.

[3100] And you chose.

[3101] When I got into cooking and you're like, it's time to embrace these things.

[3102] Yeah.

[3103] Yeah.

[3104] I think there's just like realization, too, that you can make any ingredient tastes good if it's prepared well.

[3105] That is the premise you've accepted.

[3106] Yeah.

[3107] I'm only halfway there.

[3108] Today's, and I'm going to prep it really well, the frozen food, and then everything will taste good.

[3109] I'm going to do it exactly 18 minutes on the dot at exactly 425.

[3110] Also, you're going to need like six different timers going.

[3111] I'm actually like, oh, no, this is going to be much hard.

[3112] It would have been way easier to cook a big meal.

[3113] Anyway, Rob, my dentist is offering you a cleaning.

[3114] Oh, great.

[3115] So.

[3116] Can't wait to have two in your outside.

[3117] All right.

[3118] You come in here with a big rack of fake teeth.

[3119] I'm going to fucking die.

[3120] Oh, my God, veneer.

[3121] Matching teeth.

[3122] Oh, my God.

[3123] I'm the only one in here without perfectly straight, pure white teeth.

[3124] Yep.

[3125] All right, love you guys.

[3126] Love you.

[3127] Chair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[3128] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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