Jennette McCurdy

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] Happy Monday to you.

[2] Hello, Mr. Miles.

[3] What a great episode we have.

[4] Oh, my God, I've been waiting so patiently for this to come out.

[5] I think since MGK is the one that I was most thrilled with while it was happening.

[6] She's so smart.

[7] Yes, she's so smart.

[8] Emotionally and intellectually.

[9] The coming together of all of that is.

[10] And an incredibly good writer.

[11] Like, I actually love her writing.

[12] And she's written a book called I'm glad my mom died.

[13] And so we're going to learn how one would come to write a book called I'm glad my mom died.

[14] But it's an incredible book.

[15] You probably fell in love with her on I. Carly or Sam and Kat.

[16] She's also a writer and a director.

[17] Maybe she's retired.

[18] Maybe she's not.

[19] We get into it.

[20] Yeah.

[21] I kind of urge her to take a day at a time.

[22] Yeah.

[23] Which is advice I try to give myself.

[24] Yeah.

[25] She was great.

[26] There's a lot to take from this episode.

[27] And I think all our armchairs will enjoy it.

[28] And all the trigger warnings.

[29] It's all in this episode.

[30] Of course, I love that.

[31] That's my favorite kind of episode, but probably all the trigger warnings.

[32] Yeah.

[33] Some eating stuff, some abuse.

[34] It's an incredible story that she tells with such bravery and honesty and understanding.

[35] Exactly.

[36] I loved her.

[37] Please enjoy Jeanette McCurdy.

[38] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[39] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[40] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[41] He's an object I'm going to Italy I've done to long time Yeah I didn't love it Which parts did you go I went to Naples Capri Rome Those are some good ones One other one Yeah Did you go Florence?

[42] Florence I did go to Florence Florence I liked best I have a guess for that already Why I didn't suit you so well It's an OCD person's nightmare Italy in general It's like nothing's actually straight on a wall Nothing's perfect Austria you'd love Everything's crumbling down Yeah totally There's graffiti The bathroom stink Nothing's on time No And we've been talking about this a lot Since I got home It's a fucking trade So Austria everything is perfect You would be in heaven It's like the whole country Has like an OCD edict Well it used to be Nazis Well yeah everyone knows that That's where Hitler was born Bring it up because that's why.

[43] That's the history.

[44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[45] But then the tradeoff is there's not a vibe.

[46] And then we went to Italy and I'm like, this place is a mess.

[47] And I'm horny.

[48] And hungry.

[49] So romantic.

[50] You know what I'm saying?

[51] It's like, oh, son, my spirit was alive.

[52] I don't know if you can have both.

[53] Now I kind of want to go to Italy.

[54] I've been looking for something to like make my spirit come alive.

[55] I'm feeling a little like I need something that's a thing.

[56] Yes.

[57] Or Spain.

[58] I feel like Spain is similar.

[59] romantic.

[60] Because you've been or because you're going.

[61] I'm going.

[62] I wanted to see if it was your fantasy.

[63] I was never been and I'm going.

[64] I was going to ask you, have you ever read any Esther Perel?

[65] Do you know who she is?

[66] Yes.

[67] I love Esther Perel.

[68] Her podcast is great.

[69] Oh, yeah.

[70] It seems like you might be in search of eroticism.

[71] And I don't mean getting fucked, but her definition of eroticism.

[72] Okay.

[73] Like a hunger for life and all the things that that entails, all the sensual parts of it.

[74] Well, I've been thinking about this a lot recently because I come from a lot of dysfunction and really just kind of like a roller coaster of a childhood and adolescence.

[75] And I don't have anything that's that roller coaster anymore and I don't have any sort of self -destructive coping mechanism anymore.

[76] Yeah.

[77] And there's just kind of this like...

[78] Bored?

[79] Yes.

[80] And I can't fucking tolerate it.

[81] I'm going, what is it?

[82] I just want to fucking...

[83] Yeah.

[84] You know, that feeling?

[85] More than anyone.

[86] I used to smoke crack and fucking getting fist fights and crash motorcycles.

[87] Yeah.

[88] And then sobriety and accountability.

[89] So my hobbies are still nuts.

[90] You know, that's how I kind of access it.

[91] You're sober, right?

[92] Well, no, define.

[93] I'd probably have a glass of wine once a month.

[94] Oh, okay.

[95] Oh, yeah.

[96] I drank a lot at the same time that I was really deep in the trenches of like eating disorders.

[97] I was in a type of therapy called DBT that really helps with any sort of addiction.

[98] What does DBT stand for?

[99] Dialectical behavioral therapy.

[100] And is that how you talk to yourself?

[101] And cognitive behavioral therapy is also included in dialectical behavioral therapy.

[102] But there's like four different modules.

[103] There's mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness.

[104] And two others.

[105] And two others.

[106] The ones that didn't pertain to you as much.

[107] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[108] And so you learn skills with each specific module.

[109] You apply the skills that you learn to cognitive behavioral therapy.

[110] Is it that you identify the voice or you identify what your brain's telling you?

[111] Yep, the eating disorder voice they call it.

[112] Right.

[113] And then you kind of try to step outside of it and just see it.

[114] as a voice.

[115] Totally.

[116] I didn't recognize at the time that that was not my voice.

[117] I thought that was my voice.

[118] And then hearing, that's a part of your voice, but that's something that we're going to learn to turn the dial down on.

[119] Yeah.

[120] We're going to amplify your actual voice.

[121] But my DBT therapist had suggested, hey, let's not do any alcohol while you're working on the eating disorders because one can make the other worse.

[122] And you can just swap out.

[123] Yeah.

[124] Exactly.

[125] Exactly.

[126] Ping pong.

[127] Totally.

[128] I've done some swapping out my day.

[129] After I got sober, I was like, okay, I've nothing to regulate my insides with oh sex is a good option approval from females is a good option that kind of filled the hole for a minute i had some moments where i was like oh this is viscerally the feeling i would have at my dealer's house like pick up the base okay i don't want to hear about your day just measure the shit out and give it to me like that terrible craving or i can't see anyone's humanity in front of me because all i want is the thing oh my god i was like oh this is treading very close to that this is a big big problem.

[130] Do you identify as a sex addict?

[131] I don't, but I don't know if I weren't married to Kristen if I wouldn't have gone at least to a handful of meetings to see.

[132] But I will say by the time I met Kristen, I already had my arms around it.

[133] I was just very much looking at it as like, oh, right, this is another external thing you're trying to regulate your self -esteem with.

[134] And you end up - in AA.

[135] Right.

[136] I was already sober.

[137] I was like three years sober.

[138] And I would get hangovers from it.

[139] I would feel the next day like, oh, my God, you're a piece of shit.

[140] So I dialed it off.

[141] I would say I'm guilty of intriguing in the past.

[142] Do you know that term?

[143] Oh, yes.

[144] Yeah.

[145] I'm very familiar.

[146] Okay, great.

[147] Are you an SLA?

[148] Oh, wonderful, wonderful.

[149] Yeah, so that's a term I totally identify with is like if I meet someone, and again, worse years ago, but I need to know, would you be in love with me?

[150] I don't feel safe unless I think maybe you would be in love with me. I can trust you if you're in love with me. I can't trust you if you're not.

[151] Yeah.

[152] Oh, this is great.

[153] I wish I would, the look of recognition right now on your face is wonderful.

[154] It's deep.

[155] Are you in program at all?

[156] No. I wouldn't discount some potential love addiction, but I don't think I need sex addiction.

[157] The fantasy building you relate to.

[158] Big time.

[159] Really?

[160] Yes.

[161] Building out a whole life with a stranger.

[162] So much fantasy, so much projecting of what that would be, what it feels like.

[163] feeling the feelings of the relationship when I'm not in a one.

[164] Yes.

[165] It's really shocking.

[166] Does it get distracting from your real life?

[167] Yeah.

[168] I used to for sure.

[169] I haven't felt like that in a long time.

[170] Well, could I argue something?

[171] You've filled your cup with a lot of other things.

[172] Also, my confidence has changed and I think that's affected it.

[173] Yeah.

[174] Brought me back down to earth a little bit.

[175] Because I think so much of it came from, well, I'm not going to get that in real life.

[176] My brain was compensating for that.

[177] Like, you're not going to get that because you don't deserve it.

[178] You're not worth it.

[179] You're not worthy of love.

[180] But we want you to have those feelings.

[181] So we'll take you down this path where you can project and have fantasies.

[182] You said your confidence changed?

[183] It got better.

[184] Why?

[185] I think the show has a lot to do with it.

[186] We got to check some things off your box.

[187] Career?

[188] Okay, check.

[189] I own a house across street.

[190] It's easy to place it on external boxes.

[191] But I think it's more just being around people who I would have placed a, above me, quote, status -wise.

[192] Like, oh, obviously, this person is better than me. When I'm sitting with them, I'm like, oh, no, we're all the same.

[193] That has, I think, been huge for me. And that's made me feel better about myself.

[194] Yeah.

[195] Okay, back to you.

[196] You did a great job.

[197] You got us off you for a good nine minutes there.

[198] I applaud you and it's my same technique.

[199] I think what's interesting is originally it was just sex anonymous.

[200] And that was kind of more of a dude -centric thing, which is like, Love was all about men and like wives, he's abortive.

[201] Yes, and prostitutes and all these things.

[202] Then SLA came Love Addicts Anonymous.

[203] That's the only meaning I went to.

[204] And it just seemed to line up pretty nicely gender -wise where most of the females in there were more exploring love addiction and the men were more in sex addiction.

[205] Yeah, I definitely resonate more with the love addiction.

[206] I haven't had a ton of sexual partners, but I do relate to the feeling, the craving, the unhealthy relationship.

[207] with sex and what that means for me and what it represents for me, especially early on in relationships, really needing that to feel worthy and valuable and loved and questioning why would somebody be with me if we didn't have sex the time that I saw them?

[208] Like, it was really attached to my worth.

[209] It's a very literal act of approval.

[210] So if you like leave the house of the boyfriend and you didn't want to do that, you're like, wait a minute, it's all coming apart.

[211] Totally.

[212] And I also think that it felt like a thing that I could be good at.

[213] And I knew how to perform that piece.

[214] And I didn't know how to access true intimacy.

[215] So I'll have the sex and do that part and just hope that that's enough.

[216] And of course it isn't.

[217] Well, and you're a master human reader because of your childhood.

[218] You're like picking up the tiniest little nuances of people.

[219] Sure, sure.

[220] So I'm sure you're great at observing your partner and figuring out exactly what this person wants and desires.

[221] You have a superpower, I'm sure, because of your relationship with your mother.

[222] I've tried to look at it that way because it definitely did not feel that way for so long and felt just like I want to fucking get rid of this piece that's always doing the calculating and so hypervigilant to everybody's cues around me. It felt like it crippled me from being able to be authentic and from being able to be present.

[223] It's still going on.

[224] Like it's going on right now.

[225] Yeah, of course.

[226] Okay, let's just take a back seat.

[227] It's okay.

[228] I know that you're trying to help me, but you're not helping right now.

[229] You're really not.

[230] A kind of famous actor, comedian I heard say.

[231] I've been so busy my whole life making sure that you like me that I don't know what I like.

[232] Oh, yeah.

[233] And I was like, oh, damn, that's pretty deep.

[234] Oh, my God.

[235] That hits hard.

[236] Yeah, right?

[237] Like you're just so distracted by what the other way.

[238] You wouldn't even consider what you want or like.

[239] Do you feel that in any way?

[240] I don't.

[241] Now, I have all the spiky senses, but I went a different route, I think, than you.

[242] A, I relate to so many things.

[243] It sounds like a cop -up, but really the reason I was late is I really.

[244] got sucked into your book.

[245] You're a fucking great writer.

[246] The story, of course, I'm super attracted to any trauma -filled story where someone's wrapping their hands around it.

[247] But I think I also lived in pretty big fear of people not being perfectly regulated and then what would happen.

[248] But then I think my reaction was, I'm going to defeat that.

[249] I'm biting my time to get big enough to control everyone else, to fight back, to be demonstrative, to be all these things so that I'm never a victim of anyone else's up and down mood.

[250] So because of that, I do think I know what I like.

[251] Now, I'm still like crazy approval junkie and all that.

[252] And I get so much self -esteem and worth out of what high -status person likes me or is attracted to me. But at the same time, I will figure out how to steer this so that I'm not a victim of their whimsy and their lack of good planning.

[253] Yes.

[254] Right?

[255] Like avoid the chaos.

[256] Yes.

[257] But in a controlling way, super traditionally codependent.

[258] I'm going to love an alcohol.

[259] and go down with the ship.

[260] So do you think that's different from your version?

[261] No, it sounds very similar.

[262] I definitely want to feel as much control as I can in a situation to feel safe.

[263] I think they're trying to understand the deep, very minute changes in the environment.

[264] That hypervigilance, I think, is to try and control, be in front of it.

[265] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[266] So first things first, is Topps the best pastrami in the world?

[267] I went on your Instagram page today.

[268] There's a picture of you in front of Topps, the world's best pastrami.

[269] Let's, let me look it up.

[270] And I've heard of it so many times.

[271] It's called Topps, right?

[272] Let me look.

[273] Well, hold on.

[274] She does not seem to know what you're talking about at all.

[275] I had a pastrami, but it wasn't even that.

[276] It was a Philly cheese steak from booze, and that was really good.

[277] Oh, okay.

[278] But Tops is rumored to be the best pastrami in the city.

[279] I haven't been, and I love Pistrami.

[280] You did quite a photo shoot in front of Tops.

[281] And my first thought was, I would say this is proof of my growth in the SLA department.

[282] I was not distracted by you at all.

[283] I went straight to tops like pastrami.

[284] What do we got?

[285] Oh, I can't wait to ask her if it was delicious.

[286] Is it worth the drive?

[287] You'll find it.

[288] You'll find it tonight when you're surfing around.

[289] Okay.

[290] I want to get that out of the way.

[291] Second thing I want to get out of way is that you write your book in present tense.

[292] I find that really challenging.

[293] Have you always written in present tense?

[294] It's my preferred because I find that I get too wistful and like nostalgic and like poetic.

[295] This is the thing that I learned way back when it's just, yeah, I go there and I hate when I go there if I'm in the present tense.

[296] I think there's a lot of more humor, hopefully doesn't feel forced.

[297] No, it's very funny in a sarcastic, wonderful way.

[298] It's the right amount of nod to how absurd everything is.

[299] Thank you.

[300] Okay, so painting the picture, you're from Garden Grove.

[301] It's like, I don't know, 70 minutes away depending on traffic.

[302] And you're from a Mormon family.

[303] Yes.

[304] And you're the youngest of four.

[305] As I was reading your thing, I was like, you could have a book just based on growing up Mormon, growing up the youngest of three other boys, and then a mother who the book is largely about.

[306] It's called, I'm glad my mom died.

[307] You know, it's a catchy title.

[308] So to me, it seems like we should start when you're two and your mother gets diagnosed with breast cancer.

[309] But I do have some questions about the Mormonness.

[310] And I want to say all this respectfully, because we have a lot of Mormon listeners.

[311] I have a lot of Mormon friends.

[312] To me, religions are religions.

[313] My attack generally revolves around anything that supports intense patriarchal control over women.

[314] Any side of the religion that has that element, I think I'm happy to be critical of that.

[315] Was that present in your household?

[316] Who was Mormon first?

[317] Were both your parents raised Mormon?

[318] So it was my grandmother on my mom's side.

[319] She was born in Eureka, Utah, and didn't really attend service at all, but was baptized Mormon.

[320] And then my family really started going to church once my mom got diagnosed with cancer.

[321] I see it as a very direct result, a very direct plea with God.

[322] Help me get better.

[323] I'll be this good Mormon.

[324] I'll do what you'd like.

[325] And I don't think it was any coincidence that we kind of started to drop off and not go to church as much, the better that she got.

[326] What about dad?

[327] He wasn't raised Mormon?

[328] He was not raised Mormon and didn't ever seem involved or particularly invested.

[329] It just kind of seemed like he'd sit in the ceremony and tune out.

[330] But I did sense the patriarchal control.

[331] Early on, I caught like a whiff of it in a lesson that we had in primary class about how women really needed to learn sewing and focus on washing dishes.

[332] And it just sounded really boring to me. And I, at the time, was already acting.

[333] And I'd, like, raised my hand to ask a question about something to do with work.

[334] And Sister Jusha, I love Sister.

[335] Shout out.

[336] Shout out.

[337] Sister.

[338] She had a lovely little golden blonde perm.

[339] She was like, women don't need to work.

[340] Our focus really should be on supporting the men in the house.

[341] And then had commented on my legs not being crossed.

[342] Because I was kind of sitting just, you know, a little slouch.

[343] are actually crossed right now.

[344] Future SLA member is what it was.

[345] Oh, wow.

[346] We can laugh about it.

[347] It started early.

[348] It really is a little rubbing on the couch.

[349] Your dad doesn't seem a part of the story in a weird way.

[350] He wasn't in life.

[351] He really was not there.

[352] He just seemed truly tuned out.

[353] To deal with your mother's eccentricities?

[354] We'll say it nicely right now.

[355] Yeah, yeah.

[356] Well, you've always it now.

[357] Yeah.

[358] He would kind of intervene.

[359] if my mom got completely erratic and violent, which she did oftentimes get, he would then plead with her.

[360] Can you get help?

[361] Can we do something about this?

[362] But he wouldn't really step in to protect us kids unless it was at that.

[363] Like a physical level.

[364] Yeah.

[365] Exactly.

[366] And then it was sort of like this needs to change now.

[367] But then my mom wouldn't or couldn't hear it and didn't seem to want to change.

[368] How did he even end up with her?

[369] They were high school sweethearts.

[370] Oh, they were?

[371] Yeah.

[372] Okay.

[373] What city?

[374] In California?

[375] In Long Beach, I believe.

[376] Oh, okay.

[377] Yeah.

[378] So to your mother, it gets breast cancer.

[379] You guys start going to church a lot.

[380] And she gets chemo.

[381] She gets surgery.

[382] She gets bone marrow.

[383] She gets everything.

[384] Yeah.

[385] Right.

[386] It's a harrowing experience.

[387] A mastectomy.

[388] A mastectomy?

[389] Oh, I got used it of vasectomy.

[390] I was like, wow.

[391] This is a term.

[392] I was expecting.

[393] Okay.

[394] And to me, I guess chronologically, this is where it starts getting weird.

[395] She has a videotape of the experience.

[396] Bald in the hospital, you guys there.

[397] And then she plays it pretty often growing up yeah for you guys for us she went into remission the doctors said to her face or so i'm told this is miraculous it defies her medical understanding was the phrase that she returned too often but she would play this video for us we would have like a weekly viewing of it usually after church and it was her singing as songs with the intention of this is going to be kind of the memory that my kids will have of me i'm going to sing each of their favorite songs to them their bedtime songs and she would replay this video every week for us to watch watch and really wanted us to be kind of sad when we were watching it and really live in the tragedy and the trauma of what that was like.

[398] And she would single out and praise your one brother because it was too much for him to even handle and he'd have to go and sit in the hallway and she liked that.

[399] Yeah.

[400] Yeah, exactly.

[401] My brother Marcus would have to go off in the hallway because he couldn't handle it.

[402] He was the oldest.

[403] And she would always say like, wow, Marcus, look at him.

[404] He just couldn't handle it.

[405] But in this very like romanticized, Like he was proving his love for her by showing pain.

[406] Yeah, and she'd get quite mad at me because I was singing jingle bells.

[407] I was two.

[408] And I was just like, jing, oh, bat!

[409] Like, screaming.

[410] Yeah.

[411] I don't know why I was doing that.

[412] Maybe I sensed that it was too heavy and I was trying to make it lighter.

[413] You would probably disassociating or something, yeah.

[414] Okay, you have like a sledgehammer of a sentence in there that says, she needed us to be nothing without her.

[415] Oof.

[416] Oh, fuck.

[417] Yeah.

[418] But just pop out while you're writing, or was that something you came to in therapy?

[419] It's all very while I'm writing.

[420] Yeah.

[421] You know, your mother reminded me just from this phase already of someone who's got moonshousin, but she actually was sick.

[422] But there's like some weird moonshousing desire to stay sick.

[423] I relate to that so much, you know, that show The Act.

[424] Was that?

[425] With that little girl by proxy?

[426] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[427] Yes.

[428] You're thinking of Mommy Dad and Dearest, which was a documentary.

[429] Of the people.

[430] Yeah, of the same people.

[431] Yeah.

[432] I relate a little too much to that.

[433] I'm like, feels like home.

[434] Yeah.

[435] It's a very, very similar story.

[436] So, yes, constantly every Sunday showing the video under the guise of this is so we all feel grateful.

[437] It almost is like have gratitude, let God know we're happy.

[438] Very self -indulgent, very, I think, disturbing way of approaching any of that, which, of course, I didn't know at the time.

[439] And you're not hip to what's going on in other houses.

[440] Maybe everyone's watching videos.

[441] Exactly.

[442] Maybe every parent needs to be.

[443] Well, yeah, we were also homeschooled.

[444] So there's the Mormon aspect of like being really kind of sheltered and protected and not really knowing in any way how the world actually.

[445] works and then there's being a kid and then there's being homeschooled.

[446] So it was just kind of shelter on shelter on shelter.

[447] So she seems to me like a clinical narcissist.

[448] Yes.

[449] She never went to therapy.

[450] My grandpa, my dad would beg her to go to therapy, never would work on herself.

[451] She would read like the woman's world column, self -help columns, but that's the extent of really what her self -work looked like.

[452] And in therapy afterward, when I would explain the situation, you know, they say they can't diagnose.

[453] They haven't seen the person.

[454] But three therapists had said that They think my mother probably had some combination or all of borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, and narcissistic personality disorder.

[455] Yeah.

[456] That's a lot to grow up with.

[457] You start us out with a birthday wish, and it's basically like, I hope my mom doesn't die this year.

[458] And also your mother gets you this terrible outfit you hate to wear at your birthday party, and you tell her, I absolutely love it.

[459] And you know that you have to keep her in the block.

[460] You already know that somehow.

[461] And I'm curious about two things.

[462] Wow, I almost picked the wrong word that's really damaging, actually.

[463] I think it's kind of what has been hardest for me in, like, confronting being molested, which is I was almost going to say the willingness, which is totally not fair.

[464] I was going to say, like, what gave you the willingness to placate her?

[465] Was it fear she was going to be dead in a year and that you had better give her this great life?

[466] But by the way, that's the wrong word, willingness.

[467] I'm sure there was zero choice put to be that way.

[468] But I'm just curious, if you can unravel what part of it is, maybe a limited time with her or I don't want to anger her because it'll come back or just when I anger her, life is so insufferable.

[469] Do you remember what the motivation was?

[470] Well, now I'm curious also about how willingness was damaging.

[471] Okay.

[472] This is my two cents on it.

[473] I've never read a book that suggests this and this will probably be dismissive to other people who've been molested or assaulted.

[474] My own personal journey with it was you admit it.

[475] Then everyone says it's not your fault.

[476] And then that's supposed to be kind of a cure -all.

[477] But I still was like, no, some of it was my fault.

[478] And the part I actually got to where I realized the real guilt was, is like, I did not want to be there.

[479] My body said, don't be here.

[480] And I chose to be there because I wanted this other thing.

[481] And so I had to first be honest about that to then forgive myself for that, because again, I was eight.

[482] I can imagine someone saying, why were you there?

[483] And me feeling hurt by that.

[484] Like, why would you have been there?

[485] Why didn't you leave?

[486] Why don't you run?

[487] Why didn't you all these things?

[488] That's just my own thing, which is like I first had to just, admit, I knew not to be there in some way.

[489] Like, I did feel bad feelings, but I just plowed through them because I wanted something else.

[490] And I think a lot of people can relate to that.

[491] For everyone that wasn't like, someone didn't jump out of a van and kidnap them, whether it was they wanted their parents' love, they wanted this stranger's affection to continue, whatever the thing, there's just a hint of like, well, I did know.

[492] I didn't know what was coming, per se, but I knew my spidey senses were like, this is bad.

[493] I do relate to it.

[494] I feel like the is fitting.

[495] How sort of strategic can you be as a kid?

[496] But I think there was some element of seeing how my brothers operated and knowing that that didn't yield the best result.

[497] And I think I could sense that from an early age.

[498] If I behaved a certain way, if I just knew mom better than anybody else knew her, I would have more attention, more love, more affection, more approval.

[499] And I did get those things.

[500] Yeah.

[501] She would call you her best friend.

[502] Yes.

[503] And gave me much more attention than my brothers, which is something I still experienced guilt about.

[504] Yeah.

[505] Although, oddly, they probably didn't get as much of the damage from it, having not had to be the person regulating her.

[506] Right.

[507] Or even thinking of one of my brothers, Dustin, who was sort of the most overtly, he would talk back, he would kind of make sarcastic remarks.

[508] I see him as being really the bravest growing up to be able to do those things and know that she threatened to kick him out or her thing was always threatening to put us up for adoption if one of us did something that she didn't like.

[509] That's a safe feeling.

[510] Right.

[511] I mean, it's literally all right.

[512] My favorite was when she was driving, she pulled the car over, like as if she was actually going to do it.

[513] She was just going to drop us off on the corner of Springdale and Lamblighter.

[514] I'm going to return all you guys.

[515] These things are defective.

[516] Right.

[517] But my brother Dustin, he was the second oldest.

[518] He was told, you're my least favorite child.

[519] He was told these things that I'm thinking, I don't want to hear that.

[520] I never want to go anywhere near things like that.

[521] So I'm not going to do what Dustin's doing.

[522] It's out of survival.

[523] That's why I said willingness is weird because it is just to survive.

[524] It's just what you had to do.

[525] It's not out of manipulation.

[526] Here's where we get into the tricky part.

[527] It comes with this really huge upside, which is you're insanely good at reading people.

[528] You can manipulate, not in a cancerous way.

[529] Or at least this is my skill set.

[530] You know, it's like I really know how to massage everything around everybody so it doesn't explode.

[531] And that's so useful in a workplace if you're a boss.

[532] Are there specific instances or types of people where you feel like the senses go down a little bit, they're not as powerful.

[533] You're not as able to access them.

[534] People that I, my powers are rendered useless on.

[535] I hate to say that, but I don't think so.

[536] Wow.

[537] I think I can figure out pretty quickly what people want.

[538] And then I feel like if I know what people want, I feel safe.

[539] What they want might not be a bummer for me. That's like a big Trump card.

[540] It's ironic, though, and interesting.

[541] I don't know if you'll agree or feel the same, but when you're a person like that who can...

[542] Like me. Like you?

[543] And you're searching for safety.

[544] So that's why all of this is happening.

[545] You're putting your safety first, which we all have to do.

[546] But it can make relationships around you unsafe.

[547] It can make that person feel unsafe.

[548] Because if you're holding 100 % of the power, if you know how to like pull this lever to make this person feel like this, that is scary for other people to be around someone who can at any moment affect how you feel.

[549] I do need to add this, though, just so you know.

[550] I'm not conscious of this.

[551] I'm smart enough to know this about myself, but I'm just marching through life.

[552] I'm at Starbucks and I'm saying hi to this person and then I'm trying to make that person happy.

[553] And generally, the outcome is positive.

[554] Like, I'm mostly just trying to put everyone a good mood and I'm not going like, oh, this is so I'll feel safe or this is so I have control over that.

[555] That's not front of the mind.

[556] That's just who I am now since I've been three years old.

[557] I have enough awareness to realize why I'm that way.

[558] I don't think it's an accident.

[559] I'm that way.

[560] And I don't argue everyone has it.

[561] I think your thing is you're a chameleon, right?

[562] And I could say, well, then the people around you feel like they have an inauthentic version of you, but I don't feel that way.

[563] I mean, that could be an outcome of it, but I don't feel that way.

[564] But if someone felt that way, I'd be like, I guess I get it based on my experience through life.

[565] That's interesting.

[566] You say chameleon.

[567] I think it's more like what you're saying.

[568] I can read what people want.

[569] I can be that very.

[570] for them.

[571] The older I've gotten, the less I'm willing to do that.

[572] I can, but I'm like, I don't have the energy to do that anymore.

[573] I don't have the energy to be like, you need this for me. I guess I'm going to bend over to do it.

[574] No thing.

[575] Like, no. Same.

[576] Like, over time, I'm not as threatened by people being in the place that I'm afraid they're going to go to.

[577] Yeah.

[578] I can live with people being upset the older I get.

[579] I recognize it's not a threat to my safety anymore.

[580] But it feels like a threat to your safety always, right?

[581] Definitely.

[582] I still struggle with that.

[583] I still struggle with, oh, if I don't do this thing that I know this person wants me to do, then they're going to be upset, and my nervous system feels it in the moment.

[584] What happens next when they're upset?

[585] And for most people, nothing.

[586] They're upset for an hour.

[587] Yeah.

[588] But it's hard to learn to trust that, that people can have their emotions.

[589] You can let them have their emotions.

[590] And you're not moving to another town afterwards.

[591] Yes.

[592] Which would be my experience.

[593] Yes.

[594] Okay, so mom, when you're six, she says, in so many words, you'd be a great actor.

[595] You're going to be an actor.

[596] I wanted to be an actor.

[597] My parents didn't let me be one.

[598] And now I'm going to give you the childhood that I had deserved and I wanted.

[599] She had spoken of wanting to be an actress.

[600] It was one of her heavily rotated stories.

[601] I really wanted to be an actress.

[602] My parents wouldn't let me. I would have been a great actress.

[603] Could have been up on the big screen.

[604] It was always like she was sure that she would have been so successful and so good at it.

[605] And the love fantasy.

[606] She'd feel a certain way.

[607] She'd be stable in that world.

[608] People would love her.

[609] Yeah.

[610] I'd never thought of it that way.

[611] But God, yeah.

[612] You're young.

[613] How old are you?

[614] I just turned 30.

[615] Oh, okay.

[616] Happy window, you're pretty good.

[617] You're so evolved for 30.

[618] I heard until tomorrow.

[619] Really?

[620] Yeah.

[621] You've obviously had to do a lot of introspection.

[622] I feel like I was evolved for 25 and now I feel like, oh, I'm behind.

[623] No, I don't think so.

[624] So you get after it.

[625] She's like, you're going to be an actor and now you start auditioning.

[626] Here's where I would love some detail.

[627] You don't want to do it at first, obviously.

[628] You're nervous when you get up there.

[629] Terrified.

[630] Pete a thousand times before auditions would cross out my name and re -sign it in was physically shaking, just petrified to be doing it.

[631] Six years old.

[632] I have a seven -year -old and a nine -year -old.

[633] I don't even understand how my seven -year -old would understand when an audition was.

[634] I don't know how I would convince her that it's time to do the thing because she'll do it when she wants to do it.

[635] I don't know how I even get a six -year -old to do it.

[636] I think the upbringing helped.

[637] I was just kind of a little soldier.

[638] I think she just knew how much I cared and how much I wanted to please her versus my brothers where she could maybe try to convince them, but she'd kind of be dragging them along.

[639] I can trust that what's happening behind closed doors is what I would like to be happening behind closed doors.

[640] And now here's this immediate situation where you'll have to betray her.

[641] That's what's so fascinating.

[642] And their very first auditioned to go get an agent, she's coached you to be a terrible actor.

[643] Yeah.

[644] So much fan gestures.

[645] She would have been a terrible actress.

[646] Right.

[647] We know this immediately.

[648] She would have been a bad actor.

[649] And even if her parents supported it, it wouldn't have happened for her because she wasn't good.

[650] And now she's convinced that if you do these things She wanted you to gesture with your hands a lot Yeah And really loud like a lot of dynamic voices Like really Oh no Yeah be on like a TGI Friday commercial Every time you're out here Out here it's Monday And here it's Friday That was your best audition ever I had to do that audition more than once I went in for that audition several times They made a mistake No I wouldn't have done a good job Going to get big enough or small enough.

[651] But she's behind closed doors.

[652] Her mom's not there.

[653] And the guy kind of graciously enough gives you another shot at it and suggests that you just don't move your hands as much.

[654] And then that feels right to you.

[655] It felt right.

[656] Because it would happen so often where I would have to do it one way when I'm practicing with my mom.

[657] I mean, we would practice so many times.

[658] Bigger, bigger.

[659] Oh, my.

[660] Look at lying tamer.

[661] Hit it hard.

[662] You are Jackie.

[663] You are Jackie.

[664] Just like, vicious.

[665] You know, shaking for.

[666] I'd go in and they'd be like, you can bring it down.

[667] So if that happens enough times, I'm like, okay, what she wants me to do doesn't work.

[668] So I'd practice it one way for my mom.

[669] And then I'd go into the room and do it a completely different way without telling her that I'm doing it a different way because I know that didn't work.

[670] And the ultimate goal is to get hired, which will make her happy.

[671] Yes.

[672] Holy fucking twistedness.

[673] It's hard enough, but to add the nine layers you're going through.

[674] But then weirdly, it's so distracting.

[675] And you're really only trying to make your mom happy that maybe it lessens the pressure.

[676] in a bizarre way.

[677] I don't know.

[678] I will say once I caught on to the, okay, I need to do it a different way from her.

[679] And once my mind was kind of preoccupied with all that before going in, I started a book.

[680] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[681] Did you have the wherewithal to be embarrassed by her?

[682] That hit probably around 11.

[683] And then I felt so deeply ashamed of being embarrassed.

[684] So would hit our relationship and the friendship of our relationship even harder.

[685] So then it was like, okay, I don't really want to be like holding my mom's hand everywhere.

[686] I go, I'm 11.

[687] I don't want to be still calling her mommy.

[688] I don't want to be attached to the hip when.

[689] and everybody else doesn't seem to be that way.

[690] But I could feel how deeply pained.

[691] I don't think that was her performing.

[692] I think she just needed the attachment.

[693] She couldn't handle that attachment not being there.

[694] And seeing the hurt in her eyes, I just felt like I couldn't tolerate it.

[695] Well, it would be killing her.

[696] Yes.

[697] And I think I was fearful of what would be on the other end of that.

[698] Once she got through the pain of that, then would come the anger.

[699] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[700] We've all been there.

[701] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[702] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[703] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[704] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[705] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[706] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[707] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[708] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[709] What's up, guys?

[710] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment.

[711] best and brightest, okay?

[712] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[713] And I don't mean just friends.

[714] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[715] The list goes on.

[716] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[717] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[718] So you start becoming successful.

[719] I mean, you're booking commercials, you're making money, you're on every TV show that's on TV at that time.

[720] We might as well bring up money now because that's part of the story.

[721] Yeah, yeah.

[722] Well, explain a Coogan account to people.

[723] The Coogan account is, oh, God, I think it's 15 % of your money, maybe 20 % of your money that's set aside by law into an account called a Coogan account that you can access until you're 18.

[724] She hit it hard of like most parents take all their kids money except for this little amount that's in the Coogan and then the kids can access that when they're 18.

[725] But that's not your mommy.

[726] Your mommy is going to just take my salary plus essentials.

[727] And I never heard what these essentials were.

[728] Yeah, exactly.

[729] What are the details of these quotes?

[730] It's not a word that would make it into a contract.

[731] Essentials is like feminine product.

[732] Well, those are unmentionables.

[733] Unmentionedable essentials.

[734] How quickly into the fact that you start generating money, do you notice that she's spending it?

[735] She loved to be a martyr.

[736] So she was not changing her wardrobe.

[737] She really clung to her one safety pinned bra.

[738] She had one bra that was safety pin.

[739] Your dad hit the lottery.

[740] Oh, my God.

[741] Here she is again.

[742] That's safety pin bra.

[743] Tonight, the night it'll break.

[744] Maybe it was from their first date in high school.

[745] It probably was.

[746] Oh my God.

[747] Did she take the bra off with the class or the safety pin?

[748] That's a good question.

[749] She took it off with the class.

[750] Which made me wonder what the purpose of the safety pin.

[751] I thought the safety pin was the clasp.

[752] I didn't understand bras.

[753] I just saw it shining in the light.

[754] She did buy a new car when I was 12 and the timing was a little suspicious.

[755] It was a big booking year for me. And when you were on a set, how much time did you have away from her?

[756] Because I'm wondering if being in the set life, which is so specific, did you start having relationships with people that you could tell didn't depend on your approval?

[757] Were you getting a glimpse at that time and were you already wishing Mom gave you more space or no?

[758] I started to resent her and crave boundaries with her at the same time as the show started getting pretty popular and I was experiencing getting recognized more and more.

[759] Something about watching her relationship with that.

[760] she just looked so unstable in the way that she would interact with people approaching me. And it was like she was afraid in those moments she was ultimately going to lose you like it was getting out of her hands.

[761] I think at first she loved it.

[762] Getting attention by proxy.

[763] And then I think in some way, me getting famous almost shine a light on her not being me. I don't think she was fully capable of recognizing we were separate people until that happened.

[764] And then there was this turn in her where she suddenly would say incredibly jealous.

[765] things and say, like, I'm going to get my own fans.

[766] I'm going to create a Vine account.

[767] I'm going to make Vine videos and people are going to love my comedy videos.

[768] And it's like, how is this happening from the person who wanted this, who was orchestrating this from such an early age?

[769] Then all of a sudden, she's mad that I have it.

[770] And I think it's because she was aware, well, it's actually not mine.

[771] And it doesn't feel like mine.

[772] But prior to that, because you get on Icarly at what?

[773] I was 14.

[774] Before that 11, she introduces calorie restriction to you.

[775] Yeah.

[776] Oh, we're going to do it.

[777] We're going to find compassion for her.

[778] I'm not there yet, so I just want to say, oh, what a fucking asshole.

[779] I imagine it's so different hearing from the outside.

[780] I mean quite literally towards the end of this conversation, I'm willing to open up the door of compassion to her.

[781] But now's it time for anger.

[782] I'm so glad you mentioned anger.

[783] That was something I really struggled with after she died was accepting that anger, confronting the anger, and allowing the anger to be there because I felt so.

[784] guilty for feeling so angry and like how can I be mad at my mom who's dead but I do think that allowing the anger to be there and really like fully making contact with it which was very difficult and exhausting I think it was so important to being able to find compassion I don't think I actually would have had any legitimate compassion for her I could have phoned it in and said oh I miss my mom at this point she's a fucking asshole yeah okay so that's where we're at right now I mean calorie restriction at 11 years old you might as well be introducing someone to heroin.

[785] You think?

[786] Yeah, you're setting someone off on a path that can only lead to an eating disorder.

[787] Right.

[788] She was never able to overcome her experience with eating disorders.

[789] From an early age, she had anorexia and struggled with it for a long time.

[790] You know, in retrospect, I'm able to see, oh, yeah, she would always get breakfast.

[791] And for lunch, she'd always have like a half of a chewy granola bar.

[792] And for dinner, she'd always have steamed vegetable.

[793] Like, there were no cheat days.

[794] There were no cheat meals.

[795] Well, this is where we give her a little compassion is she doesn't know anything else, to restrict your calories.

[796] Like that is in her way, almost a form of love.

[797] Like, this is how you're supposed to look.

[798] And I would be a bad mom if I didn't help you get there.

[799] As complicated as it became for her once I did see success.

[800] I think she wanted me to be successful.

[801] And I think she wanted me to have a better life than she had.

[802] I think she knew mine wasn't easy.

[803] And I don't want her to struggle as much.

[804] So I want her to start out early, tasting some success and being able to have a better life.

[805] Oh, another thing I hate about her is she would talk shit about your dad.

[806] I think that's like the grossest thing married couple can do to their children.

[807] I do agree.

[808] It's so gnarly.

[809] Bad for your kids.

[810] Yeah, like you're her girlfriend and she's going to be like, I could have done so much better than your dad.

[811] Constantly, her favorite line was I could have been with a doctor, a lawyer, or an Indian chief.

[812] That's what she'd say?

[813] Wow.

[814] And you inquired at one point, what Indian chief did you date?

[815] She's like, it's just a saying.

[816] But I did date a doctor.

[817] I did date a doctor and he was very financially stable.

[818] Oh, my gosh.

[819] Oh, my gosh.

[820] She was very funny.

[821] She didn't know it.

[822] But now I see her voice is just the weight, her cadence, the phrasing is so funny to me. She homeschooled you and she was a word file and wanted to teach you guys to be articulate and smart and all that, right?

[823] So she had some obvious wherewithal.

[824] I think that's one of the more devastating pieces to me is that I think she had the capacity to be really bright and helpful what she could have been and how influential I think she could have been if she'd only channeled that thing.

[825] her for good instead of letting it be that toxic stranglehold yeah destructive thing i wish i could have seen it you know i'm sure everybody in my family does we all saw there was something there yeah and we're not there yet to compassion but it's almost like she was putting everything into you she somehow couldn't put into herself she didn't show up for herself why yeah but she showed up for you and albeit a fucking weird toxic way she gave it her all with you she drove across the city every day she helped you, I'm sure, memorize auditions.

[826] Like, she did all the things one would do to pursue their own career in acting.

[827] Yes.

[828] But never for whatever reason did that for herself.

[829] I don't buy them.

[830] My parents didn't let me. At some point, she's 19 and can do whatever the fuck she wants.

[831] So there's some other hurdle there that she didn't ever really believe she could have done that.

[832] Yes, exactly.

[833] She had the capacity to work hard.

[834] She had work ethic, if it were for you.

[835] Yeah.

[836] I think she was better at getting me to have work ethic than she was at her own work ethic.

[837] She would kind of sleep in and kind of chores would be.

[838] maybe happen or not and very kind of intermittent functioning.

[839] But I think she's why I have work ethic.

[840] Left to my own devices, I think I'd be probably significantly lazier.

[841] You do a lot of stuff.

[842] We'll get to that.

[843] I wonder, like, you and your bedroom writing this story is actually quite empowering.

[844] It helps you understand it a bit, does it when you write it?

[845] Oh, yeah.

[846] And find closure where closure is, I think, so hard and maybe impossible.

[847] I almost think erroneous.

[848] Yeah.

[849] Like, when people are like, I needed to call him to get closure, I'm like, no, you want to talk to your voice.

[850] You're not going to get closer.

[851] It doesn't happen.

[852] So I guess this is the part that I would have the hardest time talking about, but the weird stuff where she wanted to be with you when you showered.

[853] Yes, that was the hardest to write about.

[854] I would kind of write the premise of each vignette.

[855] And I couldn't write that one.

[856] That one I wrote, I think a couple days before the final draft was due for the publisher.

[857] Yeah.

[858] I was just so resistant to it.

[859] It took a long time from even talk about in therapy, let alone put on a page and how to put it on a page and what to say about it.

[860] I just felt overwhelmed.

[861] Yeah.

[862] Of course.

[863] I've said on here publicly a trillion times I was molested and everyone in my life knows that.

[864] I've never ever, not even Kristen walked her through all the details of it.

[865] And in my mind, I was not going to ever do that.

[866] I was like, that would be a perverse desire of yours to hear the details of it.

[867] But my new therapist was like, might be time to tell the whole thing.

[868] And I was like, oh, I don't want to do that.

[869] You know the important thing as a therapist.

[870] You know what follows that.

[871] And I did it.

[872] I do think it was one of the last things that needed to happen.

[873] Wow.

[874] And I definitely felt a second wave of lightness having done it.

[875] And the first huge wave is like just a tell.

[876] I'll never forget.

[877] I'm sitting on my hood of my car.

[878] I tell this friend of mine in high school.

[879] And I was like, oh, my God.

[880] Oh, my God.

[881] She didn't look at me and go, you weird, fag.

[882] You know, like, that's in my mind what everyone in the world would do.

[883] And that didn't happen.

[884] And just that was this huge relief.

[885] That lasted for a very long time.

[886] But then there was the second wave recently where I had told him every single tiny detail.

[887] And then I, again, he didn't look at me and say, you know, this and that.

[888] Was that emotional?

[889] I wasn't crying, but I took some time and some spots.

[890] I knew if I were to have plowed through it, yes, I probably would have lost control of my voice.

[891] and then I would have been weak.

[892] It's the worst when you feel your voice get out of your control.

[893] And you're like feeling it, go to a different place.

[894] Like, why is it going?

[895] Hold on.

[896] It betrays you the first, doesn't it?

[897] The voice.

[898] Oh, my God.

[899] Always.

[900] I'm glad of you.

[901] So, me?

[902] Oh, thank you.

[903] That's good.

[904] I'm glad you did that.

[905] How often do you cry?

[906] I don't know.

[907] It's increasing.

[908] I always say there's movement.

[909] Have you thought about what the walls are or what the...

[910] Oh, yeah.

[911] If I cry, know you have the upper hand on me and you will then exploit it.

[912] It's so fun, isn't it?

[913] Crying?

[914] Just this.

[915] Well, crime does seem really nice.

[916] No, it's not.

[917] I don't find it fun.

[918] Is that from, we're not allowed to cry growing up?

[919] Yeah, there's definitely a lot of suppressing, but I think it's just tears are easy to misinterpret and I don't trust that people will interpret them the way that I would like them to, which they probably won't.

[920] I think it's like, oh, fragile or, oh, delicate, or, oh, you need a hug.

[921] And I think all those things are very condescending and patronizing.

[922] And it's like, no, I'm capable of tolerating my emotions and feeling them.

[923] And I don't think that's unfortunately super common to, I guess, respect or trust.

[924] You mentioned earlier kind of trusting other people with their emotions.

[925] I don't think that's really standard.

[926] I don't like, like, I have processed my whole childhood and I'll talk about it, no problem.

[927] And I won't allow myself to experience the emotions of it.

[928] because I'm supposed to be post this in a weird way.

[929] Yeah, but that person is not interesting.

[930] The person who's figured everything out and processed everything.

[931] Also, they're lying to themselves also.

[932] Intellectually, I know that.

[933] Yeah, it's an indicator of a real moment.

[934] To me, that's all we're looking for in life.

[935] Real moments.

[936] Yeah, yeah.

[937] So we don't even have to talk about it.

[938] People can read the book and hear about that.

[939] But just even such a lack of boundaries that that was happening.

[940] Yeah.

[941] Such lack of boundaries that I felt like any want for a boundary was a betrayal to the person that I was with.

[942] And that, of course, bled into other areas once I started having intimate relationships with people.

[943] I'm just like, okay, if I want something that's just for me, that's not really okay.

[944] That means that I don't love them.

[945] That's so hard.

[946] So as the Icarly thing takes off and you're getting famous and you're making money, do you have access to the money?

[947] No, I didn't see any of it.

[948] My mom handled it, and then I had a business manager.

[949] He would facilitate things, and she would kind of have those conversations.

[950] I didn't know any information, really.

[951] Right.

[952] Did you, like, know what you made an episode?

[953] I did know that.

[954] Yeah, yeah.

[955] Okay.

[956] And what's that experience like?

[957] You gave her the thing she wanted.

[958] You're famous, you're on a hit show for years, and you're making money and people recognize you, and you've kind of now given her the thing, maybe even with some fantasy in your own mind that that would then heal her just like she thought it would heal her.

[959] Of course.

[960] I think that was exactly the fantasy.

[961] And I think it was disappointing to realize that it didn't resolve anything.

[962] It didn't make her happier.

[963] It didn't make her more stable.

[964] It didn't make her more comfortable.

[965] I think bitterness started pretty early for me. I couldn't identify it as bitterness.

[966] I couldn't identify, of course, the resentment toward her because then I'd feel guilt about it.

[967] But I think it really started for me right around the time the show started getting big.

[968] And then we got picked up for a second season.

[969] And I think, yeah, I'm 15 and bitter.

[970] Yeah.

[971] Were you able to find any join it?

[972] or were you able to decide that it was going to be for you in some way?

[973] I had fun.

[974] I had some friends on set that was really, I think, important.

[975] They were kind of my first friends, really.

[976] And then I took an interest in, what does the script supervisor do?

[977] And, oh, how does the camera work?

[978] And how are you operating this?

[979] And they, you know, let me sit on the little camera seat and pretend to do shots.

[980] And some of the crew members were quite nice.

[981] But there was also certainly a darkness to that environment, led by some people at the top of it.

[982] Is it public knowledge?

[983] There's a lot of public speculation.

[984] around certain people, but I felt good at acting.

[985] And I really, really like to feel good at it.

[986] I felt like that gave me confidence and felt like, I know what to do here.

[987] Well, you can control it.

[988] You have my control of your instrument.

[989] What a good feeling.

[990] I know what I want to do and I execute it and I get the reaction I want.

[991] I have some say in this journey now.

[992] Yes.

[993] And I even remember one of our directors who would do line reads and I just didn't like any of his line reads.

[994] I would like do what he wanted, but in a really sarcastic, like I was making fun of what he wanted from me. Yeah, yeah.

[995] I actually think that was a lot of what the character wound up becoming.

[996] Oh, I think I was just like, I don't fucking like this line.

[997] I don't like the way they're telling me to do the line.

[998] I felt like I was kind of making fun of it while I was doing it, but it I think worked for what the character was.

[999] It was lucky.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] So when there became a spinoff, at that point were you excited to have that, your own show for you to be the Carly of it?

[1002] Or were you now old enough that you were like embarrassed you were on Nickelodeon?

[1003] When I first heard about this spinoff.

[1004] I think I was 16 when I was first told there would be a spinoff.

[1005] And then by the time that the contracts were happening, it was like 19.

[1006] So it was a really, really long time coming.

[1007] I was pretty burnt out.

[1008] When you're 19, 20, it's not often that the person is like stoked about being on a kid show.

[1009] Of course.

[1010] And if they are, like, that's amazing and more power to them for sure.

[1011] But I was not there.

[1012] Well, you'd already done 96 episodes of that show at whatever age.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] This is a weird thing.

[1015] A smash hit live audience right now, I want to say is like 9 -1 -1, that show, and I want to say they might get 5 million viewers on the night at airs.

[1016] Do you know what I Carly got?

[1017] What?

[1018] 11 .2 million viewers.

[1019] It was huge.

[1020] I remember.

[1021] Well, this is like today's standards.

[1022] It's like 3X of what a popular show is.

[1023] It was.

[1024] Bizarre.

[1025] Also, your fans are young, so they don't have any awareness of what might be civil.

[1026] Sure.

[1027] Their parents don't either.

[1028] Their parents are the problem, actually.

[1029] I'm glad you point that out.

[1030] The kids are never the problem.

[1031] They kind of want to say hi, and the parents are like, Oh, get in there, Michael.

[1032] Get in.

[1033] Just like pushing the kid.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] They think they're doing something great for their kid.

[1036] The kid generally doesn't want to do that.

[1037] Because of Frozen, no eight -year -old wants to know that Anna is a human being.

[1038] It's like so abstract.

[1039] This is Princess Anna.

[1040] And the kid's like, what?

[1041] Princess Anna is a cartoon.

[1042] What the fuck are you talking about?

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] That show ended quickly.

[1046] We did one really long season.

[1047] And initially, the plan was to do like a really extended season and kind of see what the ratings were.

[1048] But it got canceled.

[1049] But not because of ratings, right?

[1050] I was told that the show ended because of sexual harassment claims against a producer.

[1051] Okay.

[1052] Were you getting any solace with co -stars?

[1053] Imagine a good deal that co -stars had parents not as extreme as your mother, but show business parents that were probably living vicariously through their children.

[1054] Did you get to bond with the other people in that way?

[1055] I stayed very close with Miranda, who played Carly and I Carly.

[1056] Up until our, I think, probably mid -20s, we were kind of inseparable.

[1057] And it was so comforting to be able to have that relationship.

[1058] She'd drive around late at night, just the two of us.

[1059] And we'd just be talking about weird experiences that really not many people can relate to, the specificity of it.

[1060] I'm so grateful for that friendship and for all that we were able to, as I see it, kind of process together.

[1061] I hope she was experiencing the same thing.

[1062] But I certainly was getting so much out of being able to talk with her about it and have somebody who got it.

[1063] It's so important.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] At some point, your anorexia and, believe me, gets to a point where you lose a tooth.

[1066] Yeah, in an airplane on my way to a press junket in Australia.

[1067] It's a pretty comedic setup.

[1068] It really is.

[1069] Shit hit the fan that week.

[1070] And your mother died at that point?

[1071] My mom had already died.

[1072] I was 21 when she died and probably 22 and I lost the tooth.

[1073] When her mother's in a coma in the last stretch, they're all in there.

[1074] And they each get a chance to say something to mom in the coma.

[1075] with the ostensible goal of like, this will wake her up kind of a thing.

[1076] Oh.

[1077] And Jeanette announces to her, mom, I'm down to 89 pounds.

[1078] This is what I've got.

[1079] Okay, Marcus is going to move home.

[1080] Dustin's getting married.

[1081] I got to bring the big guns here.

[1082] I know.

[1083] I mean, of course it's just how warped my thinking was at the time.

[1084] It was so genuine.

[1085] You were proud of that and that was going to be the thing that would save her.

[1086] It was truly, truly the thing I was proudest of.

[1087] I thought as significant milestones as my brothers had to offer, this was such a connecting piece for my mom and I. and this was something that she taught me. This was something that she had.

[1088] She'll be proud of this in a way that nothing else will resonate in the way that this will.

[1089] Wow.

[1090] How do you confront an eating disorder?

[1091] I'm pretty ignorant in that.

[1092] It was a combination of dialectical behavioral therapy and then schema.

[1093] Are you familiar with schema therapy?

[1094] You start out by feeling a very extensive questionnaire and it kind of assesses your way of thinking.

[1095] There's kind of nine key ways of thinking based on this schema chart.

[1096] and your therapist uses this questionnaire to help lead your therapy experience.

[1097] How did you start that advance?

[1098] Did you have a mentor or something?

[1099] Like, did you start researching this?

[1100] My boyfriend at the time had said that he wanted me to get help or that he did not want to continue the relationship.

[1101] That it was really important.

[1102] So it's a consequence.

[1103] Yeah, yeah.

[1104] And then my sister -in -law also found out it was Thanksgiving us with my brother and sister -in -law.

[1105] I went to the bathroom and I stepped out of it and she was standing there.

[1106] And she was like, no, you need to get.

[1107] help.

[1108] I respect her so much.

[1109] Damn, that's so cool that she did that, that she knew how much my instinct was going to be to run away, stop talking to her.

[1110] But she said it.

[1111] So cool.

[1112] And you listen to both of them.

[1113] That's pretty impressive.

[1114] Yeah.

[1115] Okay.

[1116] Your mom dies.

[1117] There's no reason for you to act now.

[1118] If you're going to continue it, you've got to figure out, do I want to do it?

[1119] Because at this point, you've been doing this for 15 years.

[1120] And what's that exploration like?

[1121] I remember first mentioning it in therapy.

[1122] Like my therapist was going to look at me and be like, no, you have to keep acting.

[1123] Like, I expected that reaction because that's what I had been told by my mom the whole time.

[1124] It was just met very plainly with like, okay, so it would it look like if you didn't.

[1125] And exploring it even felt terrifying.

[1126] Yeah.

[1127] And so much of my identity was wrapped up in it that I didn't know how to let it go.

[1128] And I really went back and forth and back and forth.

[1129] And at the time I was on a Netflix show and eventually came to terms kind of with my therapist.

[1130] Okay, once this show ends, I'm going to just let that be the end of the acting career for me. And then the show ended within months of that.

[1131] And it felt very simple.

[1132] I told my agents, hey, I don't want to keep doing this.

[1133] And it was literally like a three -minute call.

[1134] And it was easy.

[1135] Then it was not easy after that.

[1136] So how old are you at that point?

[1137] I was probably 24.

[1138] It's a lot of years left, you know?

[1139] So you're like a retired basketball player at 29.

[1140] Truly, I think about that a lot in regards to athletes and how they kind of experience that similar.

[1141] Okay.

[1142] So now the thing that I did that was me that I put so much of myself into is just, done?

[1143] Yeah, it's terrifying.

[1144] Yeah, what now?

[1145] So I threw myself kind of into recovery and working on the eating disorders.

[1146] And for a while, recovery really was the thing that filled me up.

[1147] But then the terrifying thing happened where then I'm not engaging in any sort of eating disorder behavior.

[1148] I was able to get a handle on the binging, the purging, the restricting.

[1149] And I'm going, I have all this extra energy.

[1150] Yeah, and brain power.

[1151] And what to do.

[1152] So that was not fun, but that's when I started filling up that space with writing and really focusing my energy there.

[1153] You'd written stuff for The Wall Street Journal, right?

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] Three years and you wrote for Huffington Post.

[1156] I have to say, the addiction I am most sympathetic to is eating disorder because you have to eat.

[1157] You have to continue to do the thing that you are struggling with.

[1158] It's like uniquely bad.

[1159] Like if you had to gamble three times a day if you're a gambling act or you had to have sex with a stranger three times a day.

[1160] It's really next level addiction to confront, I feel like.

[1161] Yeah, well, it's interesting too because in therapy, my experience of it, his name was Jamie.

[1162] He said, it's going to be hard.

[1163] You know, you'll probably have a lot of slips.

[1164] Don't let those slips become slides.

[1165] Recovery is a lifelong process.

[1166] I wish that that wasn't a disclaimer that was said to everyone because I am open to the idea that at some point I may experience a slip with an eating disorder.

[1167] I'm not expecting it.

[1168] I don't want it in any way, but I don't obsess about food.

[1169] my itch is not for food.

[1170] I think that's where the love addiction comes in because that's where the itch has gone recently.

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] Freed of the obsession, as they promise.

[1173] I guess of one.

[1174] Of one.

[1175] Yeah, yeah.

[1176] Yeah, of course.

[1177] It's like finding just the least bad one, essentially.

[1178] So the book, I'm glad my mom died, started as a one -woman show.

[1179] Sort of, I started the book from scratch.

[1180] So I see them as two kind of separate pieces.

[1181] Was the one -woman show, though, called that?

[1182] It is.

[1183] And then sadly, you finished that and started performing it, and you got to do that for two months and then COVID happened.

[1184] Yeah, yeah.

[1185] It was really disappointing.

[1186] It was a bummer.

[1187] So, annoying.

[1188] So you'll return to doing it live?

[1189] What do you think?

[1190] I did.

[1191] I did another run in L .A. last year.

[1192] And then I felt like it was time to put it to rest for now.

[1193] And who knows in the future?

[1194] It's just a lot to do that kind of thing every night.

[1195] I was doing it twice a night.

[1196] It's a lot.

[1197] Wow.

[1198] How long was it?

[1199] An hour 15.

[1200] That's a big output.

[1201] Yeah.

[1202] Yeah.

[1203] Now, you've said you're retired from acting.

[1204] Do you think there's a world in which you would desire it again?

[1205] There's something that acting does to my nervous system that feels unhealthy, but I see it ultimately as a healthy way of scratching the itch.

[1206] And I think I'm at this place where I'm looking for healthy ways to scratch the itch.

[1207] And I love writing, but I'm not getting it from writing being there in that solitude.

[1208] Like, I need something that's like putting my nervous system on edge.

[1209] And I've started entertaining the idea of acting.

[1210] Like it hit me so suddenly, this is a couple months back, that the idea even had come to my, because I thought I had for sure put it behind me. I was never going to do it.

[1211] And I had so much baggage.

[1212] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1213] It carried such a, like, ugh, kind of a gross energy to me. And then I started thinking about it in a way that I was intrigued.

[1214] Right.

[1215] And I was like, maybe there's a way of doing this in a way that's healing and I can free myself of the baggage.

[1216] It's probably like people who do BDSM, sincerely, where it's like you want to act out your trauma.

[1217] But you want to be in control.

[1218] I can imagine you wanting to act if you wrote it or maybe you were directing it where it felt safe for you.

[1219] And you might love it.

[1220] When did you start acting?

[1221] 1995 I moved here.

[1222] 1996.

[1223] I audition for the groundlings.

[1224] So that's when I started.

[1225] I didn't like do it in high school or anything.

[1226] So 26 years ago.

[1227] I have a similar thing.

[1228] I'm hesitant to say I've retired from acting because to me that feels like my ego a little bit.

[1229] Oh, interesting.

[1230] And it feels like me declaring I have power over it because it's such a powerless job.

[1231] What I know is I love doing this and I love being with my kids all the time and I don't want the time commitment of it.

[1232] And any moment I was doing that, I could be making this thing better or be producing more shows and I just enjoy that more.

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] And then these tattoos represent that, right?

[1235] Like I stopped getting tattoos because it's a pain in the ass to get them covered in a makeup chair.

[1236] And then last year I was like, oh, I'm going to get the sleeve I've always wanted.

[1237] So I don't know.

[1238] It's very tricky.

[1239] I don't know what to say about it, you know?

[1240] Like I think a lot of it's my ego.

[1241] The punk rock kid in me is like, oh, I'm taking myself out of your pageant.

[1242] And that's my ego.

[1243] I relate to that a lot.

[1244] I did the dance for a long time and I'm not doing the dance anymore.

[1245] I want to do what I want with my hair.

[1246] I want to wear the clothes I want to wear.

[1247] I don't want to smile and tap dance my way through life.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] If I'm getting super into my ego, I'm attracted to bravery.

[1250] I know this is something people generally can't quit because your fear is like, well, if I quit, I can never come back.

[1251] Sure.

[1252] And so to make a final decision like that feels like getting divorced or getting married, like, oh, this is permanent.

[1253] And so I think maybe my ego in some way is like, I'm brave enough to do this thing that I know a lot of my friends would like to do.

[1254] But all I'm saying is I'm trying to approach it like, yeah, today I don't want to act.

[1255] I don't need to really declare that in a month I won't want to or in five years.

[1256] I'm going to resist the urge to say like, I'm done.

[1257] Labeling something as ego or even being curious about if it is ego, how helpful is that for you?

[1258] What do you find that does for you?

[1259] Well, I guess I have to always check it against this thing where how much of this is a response to my choice.

[1260] childhood.

[1261] I don't want to be doing things in response to my childhood at 47.

[1262] I guess that's the ultimate goal, right?

[1263] So I don't want to be saying I just be pumped.

[1264] I don't want to be punk rock and that I told this place to fuck off.

[1265] I don't want that.

[1266] When I have that luxury, I want to make sure I do things I want to do not to be a reason of I'm tough and I'm cool and all these other things.

[1267] I bet five times a day I'm like going, am I narcissist?

[1268] Like I got to run through this checklist.

[1269] to make sure I'm not a narcissist.

[1270] Like, I'm on high alert to not be a narcissist.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] Do you have that?

[1273] Yeah.

[1274] I do narcissist check, authenticity.

[1275] Am I doing this to be cool?

[1276] Am I doing this because I think it says something about me?

[1277] Measuring that up against authenticity is probably my most common one.

[1278] What's truly in my bones, this feels right.

[1279] This feels in some way, you know, spiritually connected versus what is just me being reactionary.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] It's hard, though, when you've had to unlearn bad habits.

[1282] because sometimes your instincts are the problem.

[1283] So you're used to being like, what's the instinct?

[1284] Is it a good one?

[1285] Is it one I need to correct?

[1286] Like there's a lot of stuff that has to go through your head if you're trying to better yourself.

[1287] Yes.

[1288] I do the gut instinct so often of, is this a good gut instinct that I should listen to?

[1289] Or is this a unhealthy pattern from childhood gut instinct that will get me into trouble and is self -sabotage, self -destructive?

[1290] And it's not easy.

[1291] Yes.

[1292] Sometimes it's hard to know the difference.

[1293] Yes.

[1294] Oh, totally.

[1295] To be honest with yourself, I don't want to call it the meaning of life, but it is the singular task.

[1296] From that leads everything else you might want.

[1297] Do you have this?

[1298] Again, I'm older than you, and it's rears has had way more now.

[1299] But the villain in my story is my dad.

[1300] He's not comparable in any way to your mother.

[1301] Despite that, I had for most of my life been defining myself in opposition to him.

[1302] And unfortunately, I'm very fucking similar to him.

[1303] And it's like, at what point do I embrace that?

[1304] and then just try to mitigate the parts where it went too far with him.

[1305] So, I mean, you're your mother's daughter on some level you have her genetics and all that.

[1306] Do you see at all her in you at any points?

[1307] Yes.

[1308] When I'm around my brothers, too, they'll notice just the way that I say certain things, the way that I gesture with my hands.

[1309] And then there are the more unfortunate moments where I'll say something I'm not proud of or behave in some way that I'm not proud of.

[1310] And I'm so quick to be like, that's my fucking mom.

[1311] That's her.

[1312] That's that piece.

[1313] that I want so badly to not be.

[1314] She did have some nice qualities and could be very charming and could really find the good in anybody.

[1315] And I'd like to have those qualities and none of the bad ones.

[1316] But that's not how it works.

[1317] It's not like super on my mind, but it definitely comes up for me. Yeah.

[1318] Okay.

[1319] So here's the time for the compassion.

[1320] Okay.

[1321] Genetically, clearly, she probably had some biochemical issues, like bipolar.

[1322] And I don't know what causes borderline personality disorder, but I'm imagining it's some kind of a chemistry thing.

[1323] Maybe match with trauma.

[1324] I don't know.

[1325] I don't know enough about that one.

[1326] I only know the pattern of it, which once I learned it, I was like, oh, I know people like that.

[1327] Like they meet people, they become obsessed with people, and they fall in love with people, and then they create some story in their head where now that person's their arched nemesis.

[1328] Yes, yes, yes.

[1329] So she definitely had some biochemical stuff.

[1330] What do you think additionally happened to her that made her the way she was?

[1331] I know she definitely experienced various kinds of abuse in her childhood.

[1332] She shared a couple instances, and she was very scared.

[1333] I think she just had a lot of fear in her, and I don't think she had a good support system around her.

[1334] I think she made a lot of choices that she regretted and didn't really know how to come to terms with.

[1335] Was she ever on any medicine?

[1336] Never on medicine.

[1337] Yeah.

[1338] I've had, like, touches of the manic.

[1339] I've been very grateful in that I'm not generally that way, but when I've had it, I do recognize, well, it's impossible to assemble your thoughts in a way that could be productive.

[1340] The way you're obscuring the information that's coming in is so dramatic that you don't really have a shot at.

[1341] Being reasonable.

[1342] Maybe I shouldn't say that.

[1343] Maybe someone that's like really well versed in CBT or whatever would be able to do that.

[1344] When I've had those little spells, I just am in a different reality than other people in the purest sense.

[1345] So I don't know how someone stuck in that reality for significant chunks of their year starts walking up mountain that is recovery or healing?

[1346] I don't know how often she made any kind of contact with reality because of the mental illnesses and also the Mormon element certainly played a piece or the way that she did Mormonism.

[1347] And then the acting world, which she had her own interpretation of that I don't think was reality, I don't know if it's because she couldn't tolerate reality because that was too painful or if it's just because she didn't have the tools to go there, didn't know how to.

[1348] Yeah, I guess in closing, I would say about her, and this is what I said, my prediction is that this will evolve for many more years to come for you.

[1349] And I think in one way, if you ever have kids, it'll evolve in this very bizarre way, which it has for me and thinking about my father, which is recognizing that I wasn't the victim as much as he was.

[1350] Wow.

[1351] And that your mother died on her deathbed, having been the person she was.

[1352] That's a price I don't ever want to pay.

[1353] I don't want to be on my deathbed knowing I used and stole from my children.

[1354] That's the worst thing that could happen to me. I'd way rather be the person that got stolen from in this story I'm telling than the person who steals from my kids.

[1355] So I have compassion for my dad.

[1356] I found out he was stealing for me like on his death, you know, while I was caring for him.

[1357] And he knew I knew.

[1358] I don't need to punish him.

[1359] That's what he knew right before he died.

[1360] I can't imagine that.

[1361] Yeah.

[1362] So I have sadness and compassion for the mistakes at this point because he died with him.

[1363] I get to not and you get to not and I pick me. Yes, yes.

[1364] Any day.

[1365] Were you scared of having children?

[1366] No, couldn't wait.

[1367] Probably in a weird way like your mother.

[1368] I couldn't wait to give kids the thing I think I wanted and needed, which is egomaniacal in some bizarre way.

[1369] But also, he's really close to his mom.

[1370] Incredibly close.

[1371] A little bit different, dynamic in that way.

[1372] Yes, like total mama's boy.

[1373] I think she's the greatest person alive.

[1374] I have a fantasy of what they can be without all the trauma, which is like it's a second chance for yourself but to be done in a way.

[1375] You know, it's weird.

[1376] It's ego driven.

[1377] I get it.

[1378] And I try to check it all the time.

[1379] But it's happening.

[1380] So I can relate to your mother going like, I'm going to support this little girl the way I wish my parents supported me. Mind you, she's in a fairy tale.

[1381] But regardless, I at least relate to the motivation of I'm going to give a kid the thing I think I deserved.

[1382] Yeah.

[1383] And that unchecked and unmanaged can turn into craziness.

[1384] This has been so lovely.

[1385] What an incredible.

[1386] It's been so nice talking with you both.

[1387] I'm glad my mom died.

[1388] In addition to being an insanely interesting, intriguing, potentially healing story that you've already heard some of, it's crazy well written, which is prove that she was already published a bunch of times in a bunch of reputable places.

[1389] They don't really do that just because you're famous.

[1390] I just want to point that out, as I'm finding out right now, as I try to get something published.

[1391] Yeah.

[1392] So it's just a really incredibly well -written book.

[1393] I'm quite excited to finish it.

[1394] It's not saccharine at all.

[1395] Like this could be a really saccharine indulgent ride and that would be so rough and I'd see right through it.

[1396] I hate it.

[1397] And it's just not that.

[1398] It's just like, here's the real story if you want to hear it.

[1399] I'm so glad it reads that way.

[1400] I certainly tried to make it that way.

[1401] Yes.

[1402] Incredibly well done.

[1403] And this was so fun.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] Yeah.

[1406] As much as you can describe like sorrow is fun.

[1407] I like it.

[1408] Connection is fun.

[1409] Yes.

[1410] All right, Mrs. McCurdy.

[1411] Thank you so much.

[1412] And I hope everyone gets, I'm glad my mom died.

[1413] Easy title to remember.

[1414] It's out now.

[1415] I'm glad my mom died.

[1416] And empty inside is available everywhere.

[1417] I am not doing the podcast right now, but I'll probably do it again at some point.

[1418] Old episodes.

[1419] Go check out.

[1420] Empty inside.

[1421] All right, this is so wonderful.

[1422] I enjoyed it so much.

[1423] Yeah, me too.

[1424] Thanks for having.

[1425] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1426] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1427] Bold choice, if flies are eminent and you are head to toe white right now.

[1428] I know.

[1429] They're not coming today.

[1430] How would you know, though?

[1431] You said you don't know anymore.

[1432] I don't.

[1433] But I just know they're not coming today.

[1434] On a spiritual level.

[1435] Yeah.

[1436] I know them well.

[1437] Your spidey fly senses?

[1438] Yeah.

[1439] You've somehow synced with Natalie through me, I think.

[1440] They're very potent.

[1441] flies.

[1442] They're very strong, strong -willed.

[1443] Well, what's interesting is because yours was so predictable.

[1444] I think people around you had synced to you, but yours, you had to be the driving force because yours were non -negligible.

[1445] That's right.

[1446] Not negotiable.

[1447] Not negotiable.

[1448] Not non -negligible.

[1449] That's not even a thing.

[1450] Also, I was on my flies in Spain.

[1451] Okay.

[1452] They came with me to Spain.

[1453] They traveled.

[1454] They did meet me in Spain.

[1455] Wow, they travel internationally.

[1456] That's incredible.

[1457] Did you have to pay extra for a flight?

[1458] Well, they provide.

[1459] their own transportation, right?

[1460] You're not providing transportation for your flies.

[1461] Yeah, they're flies.

[1462] They fly.

[1463] Farther than an albatross.

[1464] You know those albatrosses fly several thousand miles.

[1465] And they're so heavy.

[1466] Are they?

[1467] Well, when they're on you.

[1468] They're huge.

[1469] Yeah, you know, that's the whole an albatross.

[1470] It's an albatross.

[1471] It's the metaphor that if it's on you, you're weighted down.

[1472] Well, yeah.

[1473] I think, I'm not sure about that.

[1474] I'm not sure about that.

[1475] I think albatross.

[1476] I think were seen as a harbinger of bad things to come when you were at sea so albatross signals trouble coming oh i thought it was it's a weight rob will you look at it yeah they can fly nearly 500 miles in a single day i know that 500 in a day without setting down how far is that from here to where okay so from here to Vegas is 280 miles okay so from here to almost salt lake city yeah but like we could do No. We couldn't walk it.

[1477] We couldn't run it.

[1478] We couldn't drive.

[1479] We could fly there.

[1480] Yes, of course.

[1481] We could, of course.

[1482] Well, we can fly thousands of miles.

[1483] We can fly 10 ,000 miles down to Australia.

[1484] I thought maybe they could like go to India.

[1485] Well, they do fly.

[1486] They could.

[1487] No, only 500 miles.

[1488] A day.

[1489] But they migrate around the world.

[1490] I know, but I thought you meant they could go to India today.

[1491] I think they're full migrations like 3 ,000 miles.

[1492] Rob, you stay on your task at hand.

[1493] I got that.

[1494] You do.

[1495] What's that?

[1496] What's their full migration?

[1497] No, not that.

[1498] I'm talking about that good luck.

[1499] Oh, okay, yeah, tell us that.

[1500] So the main belief is that they carried the souls of dead sailors?

[1501] Mariners.

[1502] Mariner's.

[1503] Dead mariners.

[1504] Sighting one, flying overhead was considered good luck.

[1505] Sailors believed that the soul of a mariner carried had come to protect them from harm or bring winds for their ships.

[1506] Oh, so good luck.

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] We had it flipped.

[1509] Okay.

[1510] I can look for bad luck.

[1511] Well, yeah, look for bad luck, but that doesn't surprise me at all.

[1512] Because even as I was saying, it's a harbinger of bad things.

[1513] I just know it's a signal of something.

[1514] I wasn't very positive about that.

[1515] So I'm not surprised.

[1516] An albatross is a very large white seabird.

[1517] If you describe something or someone as an albatross around your neck, you mean, that's what I was saying.

[1518] I said shoulders.

[1519] You mean that they cause you great problems from which you cannot escape or they prevent you from doing what you want to do.

[1520] they're symbol of burden and regret it says too it's a complicated bird it says there's both both good and bad luck i guess albatrosses are a glass half full half empty no this is too confusing if anyone says you're an albatross trust me it's not a compliment it's not a compliment no okay because generally i've been told that several times and i was like oh they think i'm a dead mariner soul about to bring them good luck no one ever has said The idiom albatross arounds one neck refers to a heavy burden someone carries, especially a burden that torments someone incessantly.

[1521] So I think there might be multiple saints.

[1522] So albatross around your neck, I concede.

[1523] That's your saying, and you're right.

[1524] But I think there's a different sailing albatross reference.

[1525] It comes from sailing.

[1526] It does.

[1527] Yeah, this says, my life, my love and my lady is the sea.

[1528] This says this idiom comes from the 19th century poem, the rhyme of the ancient mariner.

[1529] Oh, and it heavily references the albatross?

[1530] Yeah, around your neck and then...

[1531] Oh, and it's too heavy.

[1532] I read this in English class.

[1533] Okay.

[1534] It says good omens in life and bad omens in death.

[1535] Oh.

[1536] Why can't everyone be right?

[1537] No, because you can't just say everyone's right.

[1538] If there's two different debates on the table.

[1539] Albatrosses are on your neck, that same?

[1540] You've won.

[1541] I know, but you're the victor.

[1542] there might also be another saying which is like don't spot an albatross okay let's say that that's a separate saying from albatross around your neck yeah oh you want to interject you're not Monica's not gonna like okay I have from the poem the rhyme of the ancient mariner the mariner shoots an albatross which causes the curse on the ship oh and causes to suffer terrible mishaps okay because it had the soul of a mariner But that doesn't mean it's good luck.

[1543] But it's good luck in life, a bad luck of death.

[1544] Since they killed it, it became bad luck.

[1545] Now you guys were just making conjection.

[1546] No, no, hold on.

[1547] There's room for this.

[1548] So the error that was made by the sailor is that he killed it.

[1549] Had they let it fly by, it might have been a harbinger of good things and a great fortune.

[1550] It might have been.

[1551] But I don't think it's saying it was good luck and then it was bad luck because he shot it.

[1552] Because he shot something that was good luck.

[1553] It's bad luck because he killed it.

[1554] Oh, okay.

[1555] Okay.

[1556] Okay, you guys are an albatross to me. So I'm going to, yeah, let's move on.

[1557] It's around my neck.

[1558] They travel 10 ,000 miles in their migration.

[1559] 10 ,000 miles.

[1560] That's to India, baby.

[1561] How long does it take them?

[1562] A couple hours.

[1563] That's cool.

[1564] They fly 5 ,000 miles an hour.

[1565] Well, if they fly 500 miles a day, that is 20 days.

[1566] They can fly to India in 20 days.

[1567] 20 days?

[1568] Yes.

[1569] It's an animal.

[1570] It takes me one day.

[1571] Monica, you should be someone.

[1572] much more impressed.

[1573] I'm not because the thing is it's really cool if it is better than technology.

[1574] Right.

[1575] You know what I mean?

[1576] I do.

[1577] I guess that's when we get into the sailfish, my deep admiration for the sailfish.

[1578] Because it is faster than jet skis.

[1579] Yeah, that's cool.

[1580] That's crazy.

[1581] Yeah.

[1582] Like if I could ride on the albatross, if I could be on its neck.

[1583] Oh, like Kaleesi.

[1584] Yes.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] that was you might be small enough if anyone could do it it would be you little tame mouse on top of the albatross out and about for six years in your lap of the world can you incorporate this into the children's book about me in the town car yeah yeah sure although they're vastly different genres one is fantasy and one is like wall street one's high finance and the other is a fantasy but you could mix it and it'd be cool smash up mash up the big ones can have 11 to 12 foot wingspan.

[1587] You can definitely sit on the back of that.

[1588] Monica, I want you to think about what 12 feet is.

[1589] The couch you're on right now, six feet.

[1590] Yeah, it's double you.

[1591] That's cool.

[1592] That's cool.

[1593] Okay, so see, I just want to be honest about what's cool and what's not cool.

[1594] Right.

[1595] Its size, very cool.

[1596] I also think it's migration as the longest of any animal in the planet, which is kind of cool.

[1597] Yeah, but it takes like so long.

[1598] They're so slow.

[1599] Okay, all right.

[1600] All right.

[1601] Next topic.

[1602] So many airplanes are whizzing by them.

[1603] Absolutely.

[1604] Ooh, how many birds do you think that get killed by airplanes a year?

[1605] Six.

[1606] No. No, I know there's like millions of flights.

[1607] Yeah.

[1608] And probably, I don't know.

[1609] I just don't know.

[1610] You know.

[1611] No. Not going to do it.

[1612] What?

[1613] You hate birds?

[1614] I don't hate birds.

[1615] On my hierarchy, Maslow's hierarchy.

[1616] Of needs, yeah.

[1617] Yeah, they're low.

[1618] Like, they're, on my, like, things I would hate to see be killed, an orangutan, a chimpanzee, a dolphin, an elephant, a rhinoceros.

[1619] What about crows?

[1620] A crow.

[1621] But that's a bird.

[1622] Yeah, it is.

[1623] The kind of birds that get sucked up into engines on takeoff are generally, like, seagulls and stuff.

[1624] And I got to say, I don't.

[1625] Yeah, we're getting in.

[1626] That's no point to this.

[1627] I would offer up in tribute, oh, my God, what is the actual number?

[1628] 500 seagulls to save one crow.

[1629] That's bad.

[1630] What's your number?

[1631] No, I don't.

[1632] You think it's tip for tat?

[1633] You don't.

[1634] You don't.

[1635] You're going to be mad at me. No, I love crows because you love crows.

[1636] Yeah.

[1637] You also recognize they're incredibly smart.

[1638] So smart.

[1639] Yeah, they know that you're killing them.

[1640] Yeah, but we don't know about seagulls.

[1641] We can harken, I don't.

[1642] I like birds.

[1643] Oh, okay.

[1644] Great.

[1645] On my Maslow's, they're pretty high because they don't bother me. They never come into the coffee line.

[1646] Right.

[1647] And they can fly.

[1648] That's so cool.

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] They're pretty.

[1651] They can see all these things we learned from.

[1652] Oh, they're very cool.

[1653] Yeah.

[1654] Let me pose this question another way.

[1655] Yeah.

[1656] How many wild havelinas?

[1657] I don't know what that is.

[1658] It's a wild pig.

[1659] Oh, okay.

[1660] How many wild havelinas would you offer to save a black rhino?

[1661] Okay.

[1662] Your voice had an interesting act of on that one.

[1663] Don't make fun of you.

[1664] Well, come on.

[1665] It's good content.

[1666] Your flies are coming.

[1667] I'm going to be more gentle.

[1668] Thank you.

[1669] Okay.

[1670] How many have alinas to save one of the last remaining black rhinos?

[1671] Oh, are they almost endangered?

[1672] Oh, shoot.

[1673] I mean, there might be a more endangered rhino, but rhinos in general, are not doing well.

[1674] Are wild havelina is doing great?

[1675] Yeah, they're populous.

[1676] Okay, this is a, I guess, utilitarian argument.

[1677] It is.

[1678] I'll kill all the pigs.

[1679] Oh, my God.

[1680] I'm just kidding.

[1681] I'm kidding.

[1682] I'm kidding.

[1683] I'm kidding.

[1684] No. Half of all known havelinas?

[1685] No, I don't want to, even, I don't like animals, but I don't want to do that.

[1686] Right.

[1687] Let's not do it.

[1688] I'd rather kill all the dogs in my coffee line.

[1689] Oh, no. That's going to get you.

[1690] Just kidding.

[1691] I'm kidding.

[1692] I don't want any dogs to die.

[1693] I'll be very clear about that.

[1694] Even though they go to heaven, which is weird.

[1695] Because since they do go to heaven, you know, let's get them there.

[1696] That's supposed to be the place.

[1697] I don't want any dogs to die.

[1698] And I don't want any birds to die.

[1699] But you know what?

[1700] I don't mind that dies.

[1701] What?

[1702] Snakes?

[1703] Yeah.

[1704] Yeah.

[1705] And like little bugs.

[1706] Oh, I don't care about insects.

[1707] Yeah.

[1708] I'm sure someone does.

[1709] A lot of people do.

[1710] Our hornet lady.

[1711] Or a Hornet guest And Kristen always takes the bugs outside Yeah I saw Jennifer Gardner do that too on a video And I was like wow A lot of these people are doing that They're pretty similar Yeah I took those mice outside the bus Humanely That is different Even though I was gonna kill mine Yeah I didn't want to Right it was you or it Yeah It was a mouse versus a mouse It was Mouso E Mouso I don't want to talk about The fact that I almost killed a mouse That was a good one I don't do it.

[1712] Mouso e Mouso.

[1713] It was great.

[1714] I think that should be a cartoon.

[1715] Moussoe Mouso e Mouso.

[1716] I don't really get it.

[1717] Mono e Mano.

[1718] Oh, sure.

[1719] But Mous to Moussou.

[1720] Moussoe Mousso.

[1721] Mousso.

[1722] It's great.

[1723] It sounds like Moussimo, the clothing designer who's married to.

[1724] No. The lady.

[1725] Becky.

[1726] Aunt Becky.

[1727] Aunt Beck.

[1728] Remember it was.

[1729] Who I work was.

[1730] Right.

[1731] And I love her.

[1732] and I hate when we talk about her.

[1733] Lori Loughlin.

[1734] I hate when her name comes up.

[1735] Because I'm supposed to say naughty her, shame on her for the school scandal, but I worked with her and I really liked her a lot.

[1736] Can you say both?

[1737] Well, I just did.

[1738] Exactly.

[1739] I think you can say like, oh, that was bad.

[1740] But I wish she was really nice.

[1741] Yeah, I really like her.

[1742] I mean, more than she was nice.

[1743] I like her, right?

[1744] But how well do you know her?

[1745] Wells, I know you guys.

[1746] I mean, I worked with her.

[1747] I don't do that I'm sorry where I keep forgetting where we're on thin thin ice are you going to be okay in this pitch I don't know okay what if you fucking start flying with your white outfit in the middle of the pitch is that like worst nightmare possible at a fucking network and the clients like is that what you would call them the prospective buyer is like what is all that hissing and buzzing oh my god there's Flies everywhere.

[1748] And then you were panicked and you were covered, you had a phone, you ripped a binder up their desk and covered your private area.

[1749] Oh my God.

[1750] Because you're in all white.

[1751] Oh, my God, you're almost throwing up.

[1752] This is awful.

[1753] I know.

[1754] This is a worst nightmare.

[1755] This is really bad.

[1756] Would you start crying immediately?

[1757] Yeah.

[1758] If it was that bad, yeah.

[1759] Yeah, flies everywhere and then you got a binder.

[1760] I'm just covered and fly.

[1761] Well, just your crotch would be.

[1762] Oh.

[1763] Oh, my God.

[1764] Who left the way?

[1765] window open this is what the buyer would be saying oh my god who's left it was someone leave their lunch out like you be trying to explain it or she she tried to be explaining it and then they'd start oh it's the circling around and you go oh can i borrow that binder that was a lot when you said start flying i thought you meant on my albatross oh like you left the pitch meeting on the back of an albatross that'd be great okay guys Do you mind if I get out on this window seal?

[1766] Do you mind that opening the window for me?

[1767] All right.

[1768] Jeanette.

[1769] I loved this episode.

[1770] Me too.

[1771] It's so good.

[1772] And when we interviewed her, her book wasn't out yet.

[1773] And since we've interviewed her, her book's been like number one and everything.

[1774] So I'm so happy for her.

[1775] I know.

[1776] Me too.

[1777] She talks about DBT, which is a type of therapy.

[1778] dialectical behavioral therapy And it has these modules She said there's four But sometimes it's saying four And sometimes it's saying five The internet has all Kind of like the albatross thing Maybe it's good luck, maybe it's bad luck I don't believe in I'm having a hard time with the internet You are lately Yeah because It can't be good luck and bad luck At the same time It can't be four modules And five modules at the same time Well maybe depending on the severity Of your trauma The pop a fifth module in there I don't even know what module means.

[1779] Are you going to explain it to me?

[1780] Yeah.

[1781] The four modules of psychological and emotional function that DBT focuses on include mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, distress tolerance, and emotional regulation.

[1782] Now, on the one that says five, it says core mindfulness skills, distress tolerance skills, emotional regulation skills, interpersonal effectiveness skills, and middle path skills.

[1783] That's a fifth.

[1784] Okay.

[1785] But most of them are four, from what I can see.

[1786] I guess modules is referencing, like, when you have a class and there's compartments of study that make up the course.

[1787] Is that what it is?

[1788] Yeah.

[1789] I think it's just like there are these components to the therapy, these four structural components.

[1790] Okay.

[1791] Buckets.

[1792] Sure.

[1793] If you need to, round wicker baskets.

[1794] Yeah, I just, I can't imagine I'm the only one struggling with the, one.

[1795] word module.

[1796] I was just kind of attempting to understand it the best I could.

[1797] When you think of modular, what do you think of?

[1798] I only have one context in which I'll say modular.

[1799] It's like there are pieces that you assemble.

[1800] So ships began manufacturing modularly.

[1801] So the hull has compartments.

[1802] That way of one area of the ship is punctured.

[1803] The other areas were built in modules and they keep it buoyant.

[1804] Well, what happened with the Titanic?

[1805] That is a curiosity.

[1806] It split through a few of the modules and then the pressure then blew through one of the other modules as it went up so it shouldn't have.

[1807] It was supposed to be unsinkable.

[1808] That's why they said because I think it was one of the first boats that were built that way.

[1809] It was.

[1810] And also it's a lesson in jinxing.

[1811] Yes.

[1812] And also it wasn't ready.

[1813] They took it out before it was ready.

[1814] Is that part of it?

[1815] I think so.

[1816] It also cut along the side, which I don't think anyone was anticipating, like, you know.

[1817] It cut it like just like a can opener at that, yeah.

[1818] I love that movie.

[1819] Did you hate that movie because it was popular?

[1820] No, I liked it.

[1821] I liked it.

[1822] You know, I'd had that personal experience having witnessed the Titanic sticking out of the water in the middle of the night when I was driving through Mexico.

[1823] What?

[1824] You remember the story.

[1825] Colleen and I were driving down to the Baja.

[1826] Okay.

[1827] And it was late at night.

[1828] Okay.

[1829] and far ahead down the road all lit up was this enormous ship that was sinking i just told the story the other day on here no you didn't do you remember this rob no i know i did anyways okay so colin and i were driving from l .a down to i think rosarita one of those those little tiny uh towns on the baha and on the pacific side of the baha we're driving it's pitch black we're between towns there's nothing we start seeing something very very well lit in the ocean as we're getting closer and closer she's like is that a fucking ship and i'm like oh my god is that a ship because you could see the steam uh big smoke stacks but they were horizontal and now we realized oh that is a boat and it's fucking sinking nose first the whole back of the boat was out of the water and as we got closer and Closer and closer, it became abundantly clear that that is exactly what it was.

[1830] They were filming Titanic, but we didn't know about the movie Titanic yet.

[1831] And they filmed it in Mexico by Rosarita.

[1832] It was not until we got to our hotel that it was explained to us by the person at the front desk.

[1833] Oh, they're filming a movie called the Titanic, and that's what you saw.

[1834] Wow.

[1835] That's cool.

[1836] So I, of course, had this heightened interest in seeing the movie because I had actually had a real life experience where I was like, what the fuck?

[1837] Because they were at that point in shooting the movie where they had it all the way straight up and down vertical going into the ocean.

[1838] Cool.

[1839] Totally incredible thing to happen upon while driving down a desolate road in Mexico.

[1840] Very weird.

[1841] You don't know that story?

[1842] No. You've never told that to me. Oh, my gosh.

[1843] I swore I told it on here, but I believe you that I didn't.

[1844] God, I got so nervous when you started this story because it really sounded like you thought you happened upon the sinking of the Titanic.

[1845] The real Titanic.

[1846] Yes.

[1847] Yeah, yeah.

[1848] Yeah, yeah.

[1849] And I did.

[1850] Well, you did.

[1851] The real Titanic from the movie.

[1852] But back to, did I like it or not.

[1853] It's a movie that I totally enjoyed.

[1854] I recognize the overwhelming skill it took to execute that movie.

[1855] I was like blown away from the endeavor.

[1856] And it was a love story.

[1857] And those aren't my, you know, it's not what I run to the theater to see as a love story.

[1858] It's weird because you like romance.

[1859] I like sexy stuff.

[1860] You don't like romance?

[1861] Uh.

[1862] In life, you do.

[1863] Oh, I live for it.

[1864] That's what I mean.

[1865] Watching other characters in movies, like for the full thrust of a film to be two people falling in love, not generally.

[1866] I can think of a handful that I absolutely love, like Eternal Sunshine.

[1867] But that also had this crazy component of sci -fi to it.

[1868] Yeah.

[1869] But I did love that one, and I liked the heartbreak of it.

[1870] And I loved her.

[1871] But in general, I don't like the notebook.

[1872] Those aren't definitely not for me. now who are you going to write in as my love interest the little girl on the albatross yeah so the little girl has a boyfriend she needs a love interest it doesn't have to be a boyfriend you can you're the author so you can decide what it is but do ethically are we concerned that this is like in my mind this was like a six or seven year old yeah little girl yeah it shouldn't be an adult man it's a playmate who's your playmate maybe they um take a things up a notch oh wow what snuggles maybe they when they're scared they test at six okay i don't know i mean i don't know where the series is gonna go as the owner of a seven -year -old i'm trying to wrap my head around me rooting for delta to have a uh boyfriend a boyfriend yeah she did oh i can't i'm not allowed to say that oh okay she told me a secret once i'm not allowed to say oh good well good she needs a safe place to tell secrets yeah but she told other people too well that's how she does her secrets it's kind of like the way i kept the f1 car completely secret yeah but but for five people i told exactly and in my mind i really had kept it secret yeah and i bet in her mind she does think she has kept things of course it wasn't anything obviously i know when to break that promise i'm not as long as it's not an adult that's the only thing you have to come to me what if i knew that and i was like i would kill you dead in the street Topps Pistrami.

[1873] Topps Pistrami is a place that she didn't know.

[1874] In Pasadena.

[1875] Yeah.

[1876] And it has four out of five stars on Yelp.

[1877] Okay.

[1878] And it has 1 ,141 reviews.

[1879] Not five out of five.

[1880] Not four point.

[1881] Do they do point stars?

[1882] From what I've heard about it, I was expecting to hear a four point five stars.

[1883] Yeah, but there's always going to be haters.

[1884] People do hate.

[1885] And probably the place gets overhyped to people.

[1886] Yeah.

[1887] Well, and it has a lot.

[1888] of reviews so right i hope top sends us um having heard us yeah me talk about how great it is having never tried it i hope they send us a big box of pastrami wrapped in some kind of moistureproof container so that it stays moist you know who was absolutely dedicated to this place was max burkeholder who played max on parenthood oh he was absolutely all in on tops that's why i know he was absolutely all in on tops that's why I know of it most of it.

[1889] Oh, okay.

[1890] And he was a bit of an amateur foodie, like, even as a young man. And they were young man interests.

[1891] They were like the best hot dog, best hamburger.

[1892] He introduced me to this place, the dog hoss, not unlike Dan Gaines, beef hoss.

[1893] Yep.

[1894] Dog hoss.

[1895] In Burbank?

[1896] There's one in Burbank.

[1897] I think there's one in Pasadena, maybe.

[1898] Okay.

[1899] And they're serving chili dogs on Hawaiian sweet rolls.

[1900] Pretty cool.

[1901] Pretty cool.

[1902] So he introduced me to that.

[1903] Nice.

[1904] Yeah, he loved tops.

[1905] Okay, the Kugan account, this has come up a lot.

[1906] This has come up too many times.

[1907] So honestly, and it came up again, and the percentage was a little unknown.

[1908] 15?

[1909] It's 15, yes.

[1910] Okay, so you talked about TV shows and viewership, and you said 911 has like the most.

[1911] The highest share.

[1912] Blue Bloods has the highest.

[1913] It does.

[1914] Uh -huh.

[1915] And then.

[1916] What a 1 .0?

[1917] Well, I'm just looking at viewers.

[1918] Oh.

[1919] Well, this is where we got to, you'll hate this, but this is where we got to get a domestic and worldwide.

[1920] Do you do total viewers?

[1921] That's not exactly what networks care about.

[1922] So there's brackets.

[1923] You'll get a total viewer's number.

[1924] And then you'll get a market share number.

[1925] Yeah.

[1926] And that is for the demo, 18 to 50 or whatever the fuck the demo is these days.

[1927] And they really only care about the market percentage of the demo.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] Because there was all these shows.

[1930] There's tons of shows that are famous.

[1931] attract old audiences.

[1932] There are some famous examples of shows that had like 15 million viewers.

[1933] They were buy far and away the most viewers, but they would have a really small in the demo share because all the viewers were old people and old people don't buy as much stuff.

[1934] So the advertisers don't want to pay as much for those viewers.

[1935] So when I was saying as the highest rate show, I just want to be clear that I was talking about in the demo market share.

[1936] Okay, got it.

[1937] But you were talking about the number of.

[1938] viewers.

[1939] So were you talking about in the demo?

[1940] Yeah, I was talking, I was saying 911, I believe, has the highest ratings is what I said ratings.

[1941] No, you didn't.

[1942] Because we were talking actual numbers because we were comparing I Carly.

[1943] Oh, okay.

[1944] So I just want to clarify, are you - But that too is confusing because I Carly only had viewers in the demo.

[1945] Right.

[1946] Yeah.

[1947] So I've been, you know, being willy -nilly with their viewers were in the demo implicitly.

[1948] Yeah.

[1949] Anywho, hit me. Yeah, you said five million on the night.

[1950] and I Carly had 11 .2 million on the night.

[1951] This was 2021, the October.

[1952] The 911 was slightly down in adults, 18 to 49, from a week ago, its 0 .8 raining was good enough to lead broadcast in prime time.

[1953] It averaged 5 .28 million viewers, that is what you said, a tick higher than last week.

[1954] I guess what's tricky is if there was an article about the most successful show on television, it would be solely looking at what has the highest market share in the demo.

[1955] they might write an other article about total viewers but anytime they're talking about a show winning the night they're talking about the market share number the point whatever or one point this is what I would say about parenthood was canceled with like a 2 .0 market share and 9 -1 -1's winning by a long shot at 0 .8 that's how much TV has fallen but this is Monday is that the best day that's this is tricky because it's like it's hard to yeah I don't know what the best day is Yeah, May 22, Fox took the top spot on Monday for both ratings and viewership.

[1956] The network with its 9 -1 -1 franchise averaged a 0 .67 rating and the key advertiser coveted demographic of viewers ages 18 to 49, as well as 5 .1 million total viewers across prime time.

[1957] All right, let's see here.

[1958] Okay, we do talk about borderline personality disorder.

[1959] Again.

[1960] We didn't like hunker down on it, but there was a little bit of a question of what caused.

[1961] causes it.

[1962] And then I looked, Mayo Clinic, very trusted brands.

[1963] We like Mayo.

[1964] They're right behind Johns Hopkins.

[1965] Dot org.

[1966] For me, I put them totally equal.

[1967] Equal to Johns Hopkins.

[1968] In addition to environmental factors, such a history of child abuse or neglect, borderline personality disorder may be linked to genetics.

[1969] Some studies of twins and families suggest that personality disorders may be inherited or strongly associated with other mental health disorders among family members.

[1970] It also says up to 70 % of people with BPD have experienced sexual, emotional, or physical abuse as a child.

[1971] Oh, that's so heartbreaking.

[1972] It is.

[1973] That's where we lean towards the compassion and take of, I can see where if someone who's abused and they hear me say no one should date them, that's pretty rough.

[1974] You didn't say no one should date them.

[1975] Okay.

[1976] You did not say that.

[1977] Right.

[1978] I know, but when I say I won't do something, I think some people assume I'm saying everyone shouldn't do something.

[1979] Okay, but that's not what you said.

[1980] Not at all.

[1981] You can have your own boundaries.

[1982] Yeah, that's right.

[1983] It's allowed.

[1984] I can't do anyone that's lazy.

[1985] I can't watch someone just like exist on a couch.

[1986] And it's so unattractive.

[1987] And so some lazy person right now is like, you're saying you shouldn't love lazy people.

[1988] But I'm just saying no, absolutely.

[1989] Other people should love lazy people.

[1990] I just, I'm never going to be attracted to a lazy person.

[1991] They might be lazy because they had a chronic mono, but that doesn't mean that you have to marry them.

[1992] Right.

[1993] Somebody else will marry them.

[1994] How grossed out are you that I've been playing with my chewed -up gum, this whole fat check?

[1995] Monica, I hope you know me well enough and know how I feel about you well enough that you could poop right now in your hand and rub it into your hair.

[1996] It would be like, whatever.

[1997] I know that, but I want you to be honest.

[1998] It doesn't gross me out at all.

[1999] Would it gross out if it wasn't me?

[2000] Like is it, I know it's objectively, people have a gum thing.

[2001] I don't.

[2002] I know.

[2003] I don't.

[2004] I'm tempted to blast everyone to know.

[2005] If you have a gum thing, like, just chill.

[2006] Well, I don't know.

[2007] Why you gotta care about everything?

[2008] No, because that goes against what we just said.

[2009] I know I did.

[2010] It's okay for someone to have a gum thing.

[2011] I know.

[2012] I just can't relate to how gum is so disgusting to people.

[2013] It's this really funny, chewy thing.

[2014] It's not food that's disintegrating in front of you.

[2015] It's not, there's nothing very gross about gum to me. Well, except if.

[2016] If you have halitosis and then you're chewing...

[2017] Well, hopefully you're chewing gum.

[2018] Well, I know.

[2019] I know.

[2020] I agree.

[2021] If you have halitosis and you're chewing gum and then you take it out of your mouth and you're spinning it around in your hands.

[2022] And you're wafting bad smells into the air?

[2023] Because I do have an issue with bad smells.

[2024] And if you were a wafting...

[2025] Can I tell you the cutest thing I learned about dogs?

[2026] Oh, sure.

[2027] Okay.

[2028] It's in my behave book, which I can't stop talking about.

[2029] And it seemingly is never going to end.

[2030] It's covered every single known.

[2031] thing in the world and i don't even think i'm halfway there but it's talking about how animals communicate through their olfactory glands and pheromones and you know why a dog wags its tail why because dogs have a specific pheromone that says i'm in the mood to play and the tail wagging wafts that pheromone out in the air oh really yes it's sending a chemical signal to other dogs i want to play how fucking cute is that they're wafting their eye want to play pheromone that is really cute oh it's so cute yeah okay so that's really cute the dogs do that they wave that is cute but if you are waving your gum around yeah and it stunk i would be bummed out yeah yeah i would i'm really sensitive to bad smells hey look you know what i guess that that person who like hates visually gum yeah maybe they don't mind stinky smells and they're probably thinking to me get over it smells like shit.

[2032] I'm like, well, I can't.

[2033] I don't like the smell of bad breath.

[2034] It's rough.

[2035] Okay.

[2036] I do wonder how many people like the smell of bad breath.

[2037] It's hard for me to imagine, but I'm sure.

[2038] Well, fuck, you meet people that are in relationships and one of the person's breast smells like, absolute shit.

[2039] Yeah.

[2040] And you're like, fuck, man. And they're just, you see them kissing a neck in and they don't care.

[2041] And my thought is, well, I guess it's never, oh, they don't care about bad smells.

[2042] It's that somehow their nose doesn't smell that smell.

[2043] And they're a match made in heaven.

[2044] Yeah.

[2045] Because his mouth smells like a fucking outhouse and she's great with it.

[2046] Oh, wow.

[2047] It's also, we really want to get sympathetic.

[2048] I don't do anything to have good breath.

[2049] I know.

[2050] That's what it's, it's.

[2051] Yeah.

[2052] Especially halitosis.

[2053] I have tons of compassion.

[2054] For people with simple chronic halitosis.

[2055] that was the commercial that was always on it was yeah if you suffer from simple chronic holotosis that's the only reason I even know the word halitosis I thought you were making a joke about super califragilist well now that you pointed it out it does sound like that no simple chronic halitosis XB elidoscious why are they calling it simple I don't know because whatever product was being sold would treat simple chronic holotosis as opposed to complex oh permanent halitosis which maybe has no cure so again you know I'm not doing anything other than I brushed my teeth a couple times a day and pack my lips full of tobacco.

[2056] Yeah.

[2057] I know.

[2058] It's not really fair.

[2059] It's not.

[2060] It's one of the great privileges I was born with.

[2061] Yeah.

[2062] I'm male.

[2063] I'm American.

[2064] I'm tall.

[2065] And you have good breath.

[2066] And my bread doesn't smell like shit.

[2067] I don't even know if it's good.

[2068] It just doesn't smell like shit.

[2069] You don't want to be aware of breath.

[2070] Yeah, exactly.

[2071] Neutral.

[2072] If it's good, it's because you have like a really minty minting.

[2073] Yeah, you've just had something tasty or something.

[2074] neutral is what you're going for I think yeah we talked about this with my arm and hammer shout out shout out big props to A &H all right well that's that's that okay great episode I loved her and I applaud her so much I know I'm really grateful she came to talk to us and I'm really happy for her that her books doing so well I hope everyone gets it I hope it's not an albatross on her and I hope it is an albatross on her the good albatross and not the bad I hope it's lofted into the air and not around her neck.

[2075] That's right.

[2076] I love you.

[2077] Love you.

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