Jared Diamond (geographer, historian, ornithologist)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm Dan Diamond, and I'm joined by Jared Padman.

[2] Hello.

[3] Hello.

[4] We have a fucking legend on today as somebody who I've greatly admired for two decades now.

[5] Jared Diamond, he wrote one of the most landmarky books on this topic.

[6] You want to pull a surprise for it.

[7] Of course, it's Guns, Germs, and Steel.

[8] I think I reference this book a lot.

[9] You do.

[10] Yeah, it's an incredible book for anyone that's not read Guns, germs and steel.

[11] And I'll argue that if you like Sapiens, it's in that world of a really comprehensive view of how we got here.

[12] It's so good.

[13] But he's got a ton of other books.

[14] He's got collapse, which I've read in his great, upheaval, the third chimpanzee, his first real work, and the world until yesterday.

[15] Now, the term polymath, which we learned once we were doing this show, is someone who knows about everything.

[16] Yeah, lots of different subjects.

[17] He's a for real polymath.

[18] He's a historian, a geographer, an ornithologist, and he was the world.

[19] world's expert on how the gallbladder dealt with insulin.

[20] That was how he got his professorship at UCLA.

[21] He was teaching in the medical school.

[22] Yes.

[23] He's incredible.

[24] I know.

[25] Please enjoy Jared Diamond.

[26] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[27] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[28] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[29] He's an armchair.

[30] Hello, professor.

[31] Can you hear me?

[32] I can hear you.

[33] Can you hear me?

[34] With a booming tenor.

[35] This is Monica.

[36] I'm Dax.

[37] We all have matching headphones on.

[38] This is off to a great start.

[39] Amazing.

[40] Did one of your twin boys get you those headphones?

[41] Absolutely not.

[42] The headphones came from your colleague, Rob.

[43] Oh.

[44] We said.

[45] That makes sense.

[46] That makes sense.

[47] That makes sense.

[48] But your boys are Monica's age, I think.

[49] name 87 April 17th, Joshua 1259 a .m. and at 1 a .m. Max, so that Max refers to Joshua as his older brother.

[50] As he should.

[51] Do they follow the generic pattern of firstborn?

[52] I do not think so.

[53] They are very different.

[54] They are just two eggs that happen to come out at the same time.

[55] Okay.

[56] I'm heartbroken that I was at UCLA when you taught.

[57] and I never had a class with you.

[58] I was an anthropology major, so you weren't on my radar yet.

[59] Do you remember a colleague you had that was a German geography teacher?

[60] He taught, like, L .A. geography and California geography.

[61] Would that have been Hartmut, Walter, bioregographer?

[62] Wow.

[63] Loved him.

[64] I ended up taking two geography classes just because I liked him so much.

[65] What if he's his enemy?

[66] Oh, that's a great question.

[67] Did you guys get along, or were you adversarial?

[68] Good heavens.

[69] We got along just fine.

[70] I'm not adversarial with anybody in my department, which is a very convenient department.

[71] But I should add that UCLA recruited me in 1966 as a gallbladder physiologist.

[72] I was the world's number one expert on salt and water transport of the gallbladder.

[73] And so for 36 years, I taught medical students kidney and intestinal physiology.

[74] And then gradually as my interest shifted and I got more interest in questions of human societies.

[75] in 2002, I transferred to the geography department.

[76] I graduated in 2000.

[77] So now I don't need to be heartbroken.

[78] Thank you, because I would never have ended up in the medical school.

[79] So there's nothing to regret now, which is great.

[80] Well, you should regret not having taken advantage of the opportunity to learn about the gallbladder.

[81] Well, once I found out you were the world's reigning expert in the 60s in it, of course, I got more interested in it.

[82] But can we talk about your dad for one second?

[83] Indeed.

[84] Okay, because I'd say the person historically, I'm most fascinating.

[85] fascinated would be Rockefeller.

[86] And so your father graduated from Harvard and then ultimately went to the Rockefeller Institute and trained there for a while, I think, in 1927?

[87] No. Dad graduated Harvard Medical School in 1927, and he was offered a residency in pediatrics, but the residency was not available until one year hence.

[88] And so Harvard told him, spend this one year setting up the first child hematology lab in the country at Harvard.

[89] And so dad went straight on at Harvard.

[90] And he was never at the Rockefeller.

[91] Okay, great.

[92] I've already reported some erroneous details.

[93] Well, you have to cut yourself some slack because you're the hardest person in the world to do research on.

[94] Because you've done a million things.

[95] Yeah.

[96] We can actually call you a polymath.

[97] And it's not an example.

[98] exaggeration.

[99] Your father's three or more pediatric anemia syndromes bear his name.

[100] That's obviously an incredible honor, but we were just talking about this the other day.

[101] Like, you get to discover a star.

[102] You're delighted to have your name associated with that.

[103] But when you discover some pediatric disease, you know, anemia, it's kind of a sad thing.

[104] Is that crossed your mind?

[105] Well, among the diseases was a childhood anemia where at the time that dad, discovered it, all the kids died.

[106] Oh.

[107] Dad noticed that the boys with the disease started to get a little better in their teens before relapsing.

[108] That gave Dad the idea that this had something to do with the sex hormones.

[109] And Dad followed these kids for a long time.

[110] Dad was 97 when he died.

[111] But he saw his last patient at age 93.

[112] And his last patient was one of these kids who was the longest survivor.

[113] So there's that emotional connection if you have a disease named after you rather than having a nebula named after you.

[114] Yes.

[115] His father is known as the father of pediatric hematology.

[116] Wow.

[117] And then you grew up in Boston.

[118] In that time as a child, you also were really interested in bird watching.

[119] So the polymast stuff starts really young.

[120] I guess my first question is when you have a father that is of that stature and renowned in that world, old, did you feel obligated to go into that field or even maybe scared to?

[121] Because what could you do now in that field that you wouldn't be in his shadow?

[122] Did any of those things or any of those things in your mind at that time?

[123] Yes, something related to that was in my mind when I was growing up and people asked me, what are you going to do when you grow up?

[124] My routine answer was, I could be a doctor like my father.

[125] I had been pre -med in college, but only in my senior year did I realize, no, I don't want to practice medicine.

[126] But as far as the polymath business is concerned, there's my father and there's my mother.

[127] Mum was a concert pianist.

[128] She debuted in Town Hall in New York.

[129] Mum started my sister and me playing the piano when I was six years old.

[130] Music is still a huge part of my life.

[131] But Mum was also a fantastic linguist.

[132] So my love of languages comes from Mum.

[133] My love of music comes from Mum.

[134] You wooed your wife with a piano piece, no?

[135] because Marie is Polish, I practiced before our first day playing Chopin preludes that I played for her, but then to propose to her, I had reason to believe that I would be accepted, but you don't want to make a mess of these things.

[136] And so I stayed home all day that day, practicing Brahms' A major into Mezzo, which Marie loves, that evening after we'd gone to a disappointing concert, I said to me, ah, the concert was disappointing, let me play something you like.

[137] I play.

[138] I played her that A major into METSO, which I got perfectly because I had been practicing it all day.

[139] And then I turned to Marie and said, Dr. Cohen, will you marry me?

[140] Oh, my God.

[141] And Reeve broke into tears.

[142] She asked, how long should I wait to answer?

[143] I said, wait one millisecond and then Marie said yes.

[144] Yeah, she don't want to seem desperate.

[145] She wanted you to think you got a catch that that was maybe one of many offers that had come her way.

[146] That is such an adorable romantic story.

[147] Okay, you and your family would take trips to Montana when you were around 15 and you would be on a ranch and you would actually even work there.

[148] And I think that somehow is going to percolate up into your interests and just the course of your life.

[149] Can you tell me like coming from Boston and landing in Montana, how eye -opening that was?

[150] The largest ranch owner in Montana, their grandson as a child, had a difficult to diagnose disease.

[151] And so the pediatrician, referred the child to come to Boston where the child got better.

[152] The grateful grandparents then invited our whole family to come to Montana in the summer of 53.

[153] I came back in the summer of 56, worked on the hay harvest.

[154] And that for 42 years was the end of Montana until in 1998, the head of a wildlife refuge in Montana invited me to come give the annual lecture for the wildlife refuge.

[155] So I and my wife and the two children came to Montana to arrive in the Bidrood Valley.

[156] You fly into Missoula, you drive down the Bidrood Valley, you see the snow cap mountains.

[157] I start crying when I think of it.

[158] Every year since then, my wife and I go back to this most gorgeous place.

[159] I watch birds and my wife fly fishes.

[160] Bird watching, I began at age seven with no background to it.

[161] My parents were not bird watchers.

[162] It was just that I looked out the window of my parents' bedroom in Brookline, and there were sparrows on the lawn.

[163] I spontaneously felt a desire to identify those sparrows.

[164] Then in college, a classmate of mine, who was a really great adolescent birdwatcher, after I'd been to Cambridge, England, both of us wanted to experience the tropics that had set Alfred Russell Wallace on his path.

[165] And so John and I cooked up a trip to Peru, to the Kazihundwilas, the highest mountains of Peru, where we climbed mountains, did some first ascent, then went down to the Amazon basin to watch birds, published two papers.

[166] The following year, we asked ourselves, now we've done the Amazon, what is the wildest place in the world, the most adventurous place?

[167] Of course, it's New Guinea.

[168] I had two friends who could tell me what to do with New Guinea people and New Guinea birds, so I went to New Guinea in 1964, fell in love with it, and I've been going back to New Guinea ever since.

[169] Yeah, that really kind of changes the course of your life.

[170] If I remember from all these anthro papers, World War II was maybe the first really massive integration of Westerners and New Guinea's, right?

[171] I mean, that's when the cargo and the big deliveries were landing on beaches.

[172] New Guinea is pretty late in the commingling with Westerners.

[173] That's true.

[174] The loans of New Guinea go back further.

[175] Europeans were going around the coast of New Guinea in the 1800s.

[176] In 1884, New Guinea was partitioned, colonially, between Germany, the Dutch, and the Australians and British.

[177] But outsiders were just in the lowlands.

[178] And yet the first Europeans who went around the coast of New Guinea from the ocean, they looked up and they saw white in the sky.

[179] And they infer that white is known.

[180] So New Guinea is one of the three places in the world with snow on the equator.

[181] because they're high enough to be glaciated.

[182] And in fact, New Guinea's highest mountain.

[183] The first ascent of it was not until 1962 by Heinrich Hara, the great Austrian mountaineer who did the first ascent of the Eiger North phase.

[184] But in New Guinea, it's so difficult to go through the jungle.

[185] It wasn't until the 1930s that the first expedition of miners, boats discovered the highlands of New Guinea, which are the most densely populated part of New Guinea.

[186] So this was first contact.

[187] There were more than a million people that the outside world didn't know about, and they didn't know about the outside world.

[188] There still is first contact going on when I began in New Guinea in 1964.

[189] And for example, in 1994, my field side in New Guinea was a bush airstrip and five miles away.

[190] There were uncontacted New Guineans who had not given permission for anybody to come in outside and visit them.

[191] I feel like some very significant percentage of anthropological study are from there.

[192] As the Amazon was maybe with the Yanomamo in these different groups, it seems like so much of what we know about the simple subsistence farming model comes from studying Papua New Guinea.

[193] That's right.

[194] And a reason is that of the world's roughly 7 ,000 languages, 1 ,000 are confined to New Guinea.

[195] New Guinea has by far the highest linguistic diversity in the world.

[196] Europe has 48 languages.

[197] New Guinea has 1 ,000 languages, and people always respond, Jared, you mean dialects.

[198] No, I mean languages.

[199] These thousand languages belong to at least 65 different language families.

[200] They're mutually unintelligible.

[201] There are tonal languages like Chinese.

[202] There are non -tonal languages.

[203] When I work on New Guinea birds, the first thing I do when I come into a village or a group is to learn the names of the birds in the local language.

[204] So although I've learned only one New Guinea language, I've learned the names of birds in probably 100 New Guinea languages, that then allows me to converse.

[205] If I ask people, what do you know about the gray spotted flower pecker?

[206] They know nothing about the gray spotted flower pecker.

[207] But if I say, you know one of something along Issa Wynataba.

[208] Oh, Issa Wynataba, any one of something.

[209] You got dispella something.

[210] I got another pellet.

[211] Yeah.

[212] So you got to learn the names of the birds in the local language.

[213] Oh, my goodness.

[214] What a cool entree into language.

[215] having a very specific passion.

[216] Right.

[217] Language in New Guinea is wonderful.

[218] So in my life, I've learned either to read or talk 13 languages, although I'm current now and only five of them.

[219] Most of those languages I've learned from books.

[220] The first language that I picked up without a book just by listening to people was the Finnish language of Finland.

[221] I spent a vacation in Finland.

[222] I didn't have a grammar.

[223] So I just talked with people and listen.

[224] But then the second language I picked up by listening was the foray language of Eastern New Guinea.

[225] The Foray people are the people who are famous for Kourou, the disease that turned out to be a model for mad cow disease and prion diseases.

[226] My first night in the New Guinea Highlands, I was in a village.

[227] People didn't speak anything except Foray.

[228] So at night, I went down to brush my teeth.

[229] At the little scream, I heard a frog croaking.

[230] And I said to the New Guineum one -something pigeon, and the New Guinean replied to me, Daquo Warnipadi, Wendia.

[231] Now, I had already figured out that Waniya's water, Wendia's the lock of the verb.

[232] So I thought he was saying the frog is in the water.

[233] And then later, another day, another New Guinea came.

[234] And there was frog quoting.

[235] So to demonstrate, I said, Daqwo Winni Wendia, and the New Guinea was, he was serious.

[236] No. Oh.

[237] You know, Daqwa was the name of that species of frog, but this is another species.

[238] And that illustrated that the foray had 35 names for 35 frog species, but they had 150 names for 150 bird species.

[239] Right, right, right, yes.

[240] Oh, my gosh.

[241] Do you have a hard time talking to most people because no one is as smart as you.

[242] The way you're talking about learning that language is like how I think about Spanish.

[243] I'm trying to pick up Spanish when I'm in Spain and I can't do it.

[244] It's astonishing.

[245] You've been exposed to it in movies and songs and yeah.

[246] I should be able to do that if you can do that with the New Guinea language.

[247] Yeah, this is why you don't compare yourself.

[248] to other people just yourself.

[249] I'm sad.

[250] Again, you go to Harvard, then you go to Cambridge, now you're going to be a gallbladder expert.

[251] You win the MacArthur Foundation Award for your research on the gallbladder, and they tell you, we're going to pay you a pretty significant sum of money for the next five years so you can do whatever you want.

[252] And you said this was one of only two times in your life that you actually experience real depression.

[253] I'd love to know what caused the depression, what were the forces, how did you work through it, and how How did it end up changing your life, that period of depression?

[254] Sure.

[255] I knew nothing about the MacArthur Foundation.

[256] I didn't know that I had been nominated for the prize.

[257] One day, in 1985, I got a phone call, and the phone call began with a long sentence, like a sentence out of a German novel by Thomas Mann.

[258] My first reaction was, course, delight.

[259] And my next reaction was depression.

[260] What the prize was telling me was, we expect big things of you.

[261] But we expect more out of you than New Guinea birds and gallbladders.

[262] What are you going to do to live up to the faith that we placed on you?

[263] So it was that that motivated me, one of the two things that motivated me to write books about human societies.

[264] The other thing that motivated me to write books about human society was the birth of Maurice and my twin sons in 1987.

[265] At that time, I had written about environmental problems.

[266] I had heard and I had written that by the year 2050, so and so much of the tropical rainforest would be destroyed in global warming, but I was born in 1937.

[267] So the year 2050, it was a meaningless year to me. But when Max and Joshua were born, I realized they'll be at the peak of their lives in 2050.

[268] And their future is not going to depend upon gallbladders.

[269] Jared, what are you going to do to make a better world for your sons?

[270] So it was the combination of that MacArthur Award and the birth of my sons that motivated me to do something more, namely to start writing books for the public.

[271] In addition to the things that made you nerd, I also would be afraid of the endless possibility.

[272] So for five years, I can pursue anything.

[273] It's almost too big of a box to be creative in, if that makes any sense.

[274] It didn't feel that way to me at all because I was a professor with UCLA.

[275] Those five years, I'm not going to give up my professorship.

[276] I'm going to carry on.

[277] But what more am I going to do?

[278] And at that point, I had already been writing articles for the general public.

[279] The background to that was that I went to a, wonderful school, Roxbury Latin School, oldest private school in the United States, where, although I expected that I was going to go into science, Roxville Latin encouraged my interest in lots of things.

[280] Once I got my PhD and I came back to Boston to Harvard to do a post -doctoral fellowship and go about a physiology without realizing what I was doing for the first couple of years, I was developing my second career on New Guinea ornithology and evolutionary biology.

[281] But I wanted a third career, and so I got interested in South American native ceramics, Moche, but I realized I didn't have a good sense of ceramics.

[282] You have a transferable skill, which is birdwatching in so many ways is identical to being able to identify Moche works and decide what time period this pots from.

[283] My professor, who is the great Moche expert there at UCLA, he said, think about it this way.

[284] If you ask guys, like, what car is that?

[285] And they'll go, oh, that's at 1968 Cheval.

[286] That's before the headlights got square.

[287] You know how to do this type of analysis.

[288] So I would imagine having the birdwatching, like looking for these tiny little cues of what the thing is.

[289] I would say you were predispositioned to be good at that.

[290] The difference is that Moche Potts are silent.

[291] Well, not when they break.

[292] I'm very musical.

[293] When I hear New Guinea birds songs, birds that have very similar vocalizations, I describe them musically, and most birdwatchers do not have a musical background.

[294] So I can say that accelerate.

[295] and decrescendos, and those first two notes are separated by a major third.

[296] So my musical background really helps with New Guinea Burns.

[297] Did your sister also follow the same highly intellectual path?

[298] My sister, Susan, instead became a writer and a journalist.

[299] For a long time, she was the public journalist for the business section of the L .A. Times.

[300] Oh, wow.

[301] Susan has written two novels also.

[302] It's interesting to me that your father died in Los Angeles.

[303] in Los Angeles, and then Susan was in Los Angeles.

[304] Y 'all somehow bit into the apple of Los Angeles.

[305] The sequence was that I came to UCLA in 1966.

[306] UCLA Medical School not only offered me a job and gallbladder physiology, but the dean of UCLA Medical School, a wonderful person, Sherm Mellencoff, when I asked Sherm, do you mind if I continue to work on New Guinea Birds in the summer?

[307] And Sherm responded, UCLA Medical School is interested in New Guinea Birds, and he gave me $5 ,000 a year to study, New Guinea, Burr.

[308] Wow.

[309] My sister Susan moved the following year in 1967.

[310] My father, when he reached mandatory retirement age at Harvard in 68, was offered a position at University of California, San Francisco.

[311] So my parents moved to San Francisco in 68.

[312] And then when our twin sons were born, that was the last one.

[313] My parents moved down to Los Angeles.

[314] So we were all in L .A. Yes.

[315] Okay.

[316] You've written several books that we could spend, hours talking about.

[317] I have a particular interest in talking about guns, germs, and steel.

[318] It won the Pulitzer.

[319] When Yuval Harari was asked, what in his education drove him to take this very comprehensive, global macro view of everything he knows and synthesize it into a narrative?

[320] He said it's very, very simple.

[321] I read guns, germs, and steel while I was in college.

[322] And that changed his life.

[323] And I would argue Sapiens, which is incredible, Home of Days is incredible.

[324] I love these books.

[325] We've interviewed you all.

[326] They are carrying on what you started.

[327] I feel like what you did with guns, germs, and steel is really the first combining of all of these many disciplines into one cohesive story.

[328] It seems like in academia you have all of these silos of knowledge and no one's appointed to weave any of them together.

[329] It takes someone like you who just has these very curious interests in following the ornithology thing and then learning a lot about Papua New Guinea, an environmental historian, would there be value in modern colleges to have as its own major a curriculum that tries to synthesize everything we know and try to pull it together?

[330] Were you the first to do that?

[331] And do you think there's value in that being something that universities commit to?

[332] No, I was not the first scientist to write successful books for the public.

[333] Probably the first was Rachel Carson, a rigorous scientific book that nevertheless appeal to the public.

[334] And then after Rachel Carson, there were others, Paul Ehrlich, Richard Dawkins, Lewis Thomas, and so on, Stephen Jay Gould.

[335] My first book for the public was not until 1991, the third chimpanzee.

[336] Guns German Steel is a distinctive book.

[337] What made Gunn German Steel was New Guinea.

[338] When I went out to New Guinea in 19, Some New Guinea's were still using stone tools.

[339] New Guinea traditionally had the largest number of people in the modern world who were still using stone tools who did not have writing, who did not have state government, had small -scale tribal societies.

[340] And so when I went out to New Guinea in 1964, these were so -called quotes, primitive people.

[341] Nowadays, you don't say that.

[342] But the stone tools were not modern metal tools.

[343] Why on earth did these people still use stone tools in the modern world?

[344] there's something about them mentally and took me about one day in New Guinea to realize these people are at least as smart as.

[345] They're smarter than Europeans.

[346] One of the papers I remember reading was even if you hadn't asked that question, they were asking that question.

[347] When they would interact with GIs, when they would interact with anthropologists, they would say, how did you get all the cargo?

[348] That's what they would call all of our material goods that we had created, right?

[349] How did you guys get this?

[350] They themselves were as curious as maybe you would have even been.

[351] That's right.

[352] And the immediate impetus to Guns German Steel was, in fact, such a question that a New Guinea asked me. In 1972, I happened to be walking on a beach in the New Guinea area.

[353] And there was a New Guinea politician.

[354] And he was a really charismatic smart guy.

[355] He had lots of questions.

[356] Wanted to know why I was studying birds.

[357] How much did I get paid for studying birds?

[358] And eventually, in the course of an hour's conversation, we got to differences between New Guinea and Europe.

[359] And then he turned to me and he said, the conversation was in talk, Pisham.

[360] All saying, one of me, you peller white men, you come now, you kiss them all, get a cargo.

[361] Now me, peller, black, peller, belong in me. Me, peller, no got cargo.

[362] Why is it that you Europeans came with all of this cargo?

[363] Cargo meaning metal tools and guns.

[364] And we New Guineans didn't have cargo.

[365] It's the most profound question about human societies.

[366] I blabbered something, but as soon as I said, I knew it was wrong.

[367] The question then festered in the back of my head.

[368] It wasn't until the late.

[369] 1980s that I began to put together the pieces, the role of agriculture, the development of agriculture in different parts of the world, agriculture and its population explosion, the food surpluses that allow societies to have specialized inventors and bureaucrats and scribes.

[370] But agriculture arose only in certain parts of the world because for agriculture, you need domestic plants and animals, and there were rather few wild plants and animals that can be domesticated.

[371] So it took me more than 15 years to realize that the answer to that question had to do with agriculture.

[372] And that was Glenn's Germs and Steel.

[373] And that's why, again, all of your books are worthy of us talking about.

[374] But I think at this moment in time, what's happening right now culturally is people are starting to finally learn what happened between slavery and yesterday.

[375] And it wasn't, oh, in 1868, we abolished slavery.

[376] and that's the end of that story.

[377] We're learning about redlining.

[378] We're learning about all these things that have landed us right here where we have complicated systems that are still racist.

[379] We have disenfranchised people through systemic coordination.

[380] So to me, once you have that, you kind of fully get the story in this country of how people have ended up in all these hierarchical slots.

[381] I think it's then fun to go even further back, which is, to me, what guns, germs, and steel does, it says, well, how did we even get into a position where Europeans would have been colonizing all these places or capturing people and creating the slave trade?

[382] What's even before that?

[383] And so this book is so profound and will remain so profound because it gets us to the place where we, in the zeitgeist, are starting to understand where we're at.

[384] Right.

[385] So it addresses the question, why did these smart people end up with the stone tools, these New Guineans?

[386] and it has nothing to do with their brains, nothing to do with any differences in intelligence, although the way that I can make Europeans furious the most quickly is by saying that my perception is the New Guineans are on the average smarter than the European, but they're good reasons why they're smarter than Europeans.

[387] Traditionally, there was strong natural selection.

[388] If you weren't smart in New Guinea, you starved or you got killed, whereas in Europe, the main selection for the last 10 ,000 years, has been selection for surviving infectious diseases.

[389] So Europeans have got genetic resistance to smallpox and other things, but there is not the severe selection that there is in New Guinea.

[390] But anyway, because I know that makes people angry, we won't talk about that.

[391] But Europe had the advantage of being next to the fertile crescent, Iraq, Iran, southeastern Turkey.

[392] The fertile crescent is the part of the world that had the largest number of wild plants and animals suitable and valuable for domestication.

[393] That's where wheat, barley, peas, and then the big animals, that's where.

[394] cow, sheep, goats, pigs, and nearby horses.

[395] So those things got domesticated first in the Fertile Crescent, the most valuable agriculture in the world, Fertile Crescent that had the first metal tools, the first riding, the first empires, then gradually went downhill.

[396] It's an environmentally fragile area.

[397] But all of that Fertile Crescent stuff, the crops and the animals got transferred into Europe, 7 ,000 BC.

[398] And Europe is ecologically robust.

[399] and yet humans evolved in Africa.

[400] Why on Earth, with this huge head start, was it not Africans who conquered Europe rather than vice versa.

[401] Well, African agriculture, those big animals, the rhinoceros, never got domesticated.

[402] Yeah, good luck.

[403] If Africans had domesticated rhinoceros, they would have rode into Europe on their rhinos and wiped out Europeans.

[404] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[405] We've all been there.

[406] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[407] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[408] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[409] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[410] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[411] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[412] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[413] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[414] What's up, guys?

[415] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[416] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[417] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[418] And I don't mean just friends.

[419] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[420] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[421] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[422] There was many areas where they had a single crop that could be grown.

[423] And if you plot how many crops that could be grown against how big their societies grew, how complex they grew in their structure.

[424] It correlates almost perfectly, right?

[425] As you go around the world and you look at all of these early populations of people, some had one, and the Fertile Crescent had like seven.

[426] It's even better than that.

[427] The two areas of the world with the largest number and most valuable domestic crops and animals were Fertile Crescent number one, followed closely by China.

[428] The next two were in the New World, Mexico, Mesoamerica, and the Andes.

[429] And so, weird as writing develop in the world?

[430] Only three places.

[431] Writing develops in the Furnal Crescent.

[432] It develops in China.

[433] It develops in Mexico.

[434] All other writing of the world spread from one of those three places.

[435] And the Andes, with potatoes and sweet potatoes and the llama, did not develop writing, but they instead developed the Kippoo.

[436] these large net devices, which were recording systems, not recording systems based on writing, but recording systems based on knots.

[437] So those are the two areas in the world with the most productive agriculture, Fertile Crescent followed by China, next most productive, Mexico followed by the Andes, which developed their own empires.

[438] And then the other five that trail behind that are several areas of Africa, the Indian subcontinent, and New Guinea.

[439] Right, they have so many potatoes.

[440] The potatoes came to New Guinea.

[441] In New Guinea domesticated bananas and tarot and sugar cane.

[442] They did not domesticate themselves any animals because New Guinea has kangaroos, but you can't domesticate kangaroos.

[443] New Guinea has big bats.

[444] You can't domesticate big bats.

[445] Instead, New Guinea acquired pigs and chickens and dogs, all from Southeast Asia, brought into New Guinea maybe 4 ,000 years ago.

[446] They're not native to New Guinea.

[447] New Guinea pigs where all you've got to feed them is tarot and sweet potatoes.

[448] They're not nearly as useful as cows and horses.

[449] I mean, try hitting up pigs to your car and plowing with a pig.

[450] It doesn't work.

[451] So, yes, it is true that the sequence of value of domesticated plants and animals around the world is also the sequence of the development of dense populations, metal tools, writing, and organized government.

[452] And obviously, once we domesticate animals, and that is our main subsistence, farming and domestication, and also we can start storing crops, right?

[453] So now some portion of the population can actually make enough food to support the entire population, which frees up specialized work, scribes, cobblers, people working with metals.

[454] So that all happens.

[455] There's an explosion in population, because, you know, you're supporting so many more people through the storage of food or having the animals you can kill at your discretion.

[456] But with that comes lots of transferred diseases, right?

[457] And this is when now we see kind of an explosion of diseases enter that hunting and gathering populations didn't deal with.

[458] The fact that we're living now in proximity to all these animals, Westerners or Europeans or Eurasians, we start taking on a whole different biology, really, in response to all these animals.

[459] That's absolutely correct.

[460] So traditional hunter -gatherers got diseases from wild animals, such as malaria and yellow fever.

[461] But once we domesticated animals and then came in really close contact with the animals, we would even bring lambs and baby goats into huts to cuddle them.

[462] We then began to acquire diseases of animals, which jumped to us humans and evolved to become specialized diseases of humans.

[463] We acquired measles within the last 10 ,000 years.

[464] years from Rindapest of cattle.

[465] And we hired smallpox, possibly from a pox of either camels or goats.

[466] Black plague, right?

[467] Plague came to us from actually rodents.

[468] They're living off of our surplus, right?

[469] Rodents aren't living off of hunting and gathering folks.

[470] They're attracted to our grain.

[471] The big epidemic diseases evolved within the last 10 ,000 years from diseases of domestic animals, but those humans who first acquired those diseases also had the longest time to develop some resistance to them.

[472] And for example, there's resistance to smallpox and measles based on blood groups.

[473] It doesn't protect you completely.

[474] But when Europeans came to the new world, the Europeans had some genetic and also antibody acquired resistance, but Native Americans had none.

[475] And the result is that European diseases killed off something like 90 % of Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians and Pacific Islanders.

[476] Yeah, it was the most lethal weapon ever unleashed, right, is all these different diseases we carried.

[477] That's right.

[478] And it happens fast.

[479] There was a village of Native American group called the Mandan.

[480] There were 3 ,000 Mandans in the village.

[481] A trading ship, a steamship, arrived at the Mandan village, and on that steamship was someone who had smallpox.

[482] And within the next three weeks, the trade observed that the Mandan population dropped from 3 ,000 to less than two So it was an observed wipeout due to one disease to which the man that's had no resistance.

[483] Right.

[484] We think of the bubonic plague as being the most horrific thing humans have ever suffered because one and three Europeans died from it.

[485] And you're talking about 90 plus percent of a population disappearing.

[486] That's right.

[487] For the new world as a whole, the estimate is that 90 percent of Native Americans died of European diseases.

[488] And in particular, the conquest of Mexico, conquest of the Aztec Empire.

[489] and the conquest of the Inca Empire were both expedited by European diseases because when Cortez made his first attack on the Aztec capital of Tentanylian, eventually Cortez was thrown out, driven back to the coast.

[490] It looked as if the Aztecs were about to wipe them out.

[491] And at that point, a trading ship from Cuba arrived on the coast of Mexico, and on that trading ship was one person with smallpox.

[492] Smallpox spread throughout the Aztec Empire, killed off the success of Montezuma, killed something like half of all Aztecs within a few months.

[493] And similarly, the last United Inc. Emperor of Wynacapak died of smallpox that had trickled down from Mexico.

[494] And so when Pissarra arrived, there was a civil war in the Inc. Empire from between two sons of Wynacacac who had died.

[495] So European diseases played a key role in the overthrow of the Aztec Empire and the Inca Empire.

[496] We feel like, oh, it's power and it's aggression and it's virility and all these kind of masculine tropes we've put on all these...

[497] Yeah, military superiority.

[498] Exactly.

[499] And it really is just that they carry a bunch of diseases and they have resistance to.

[500] Yeah.

[501] A good chunk of the book is dedicated to the Polynesian story, which I really liked.

[502] How much role did competition play in the rapid evolution of technology?

[503] If I don't have a neighbor that I'm competing with, how driven is?

[504] my technological needs?

[505] It's debated, but perhaps the biggest question of modern history is, why was it Europeans rather than Chinese, or Europeans rather than people of the Fertile Crescent or people of India who spread around the world?

[506] What was the advantage of Europe?

[507] Yes, Europe had great domesticas, but China also had great domesticated.

[508] But Europe is geographically fragmented.

[509] Europe has got the mountains, the Alps, the Pyrenees, the Carpathians that divide up Europe.

[510] China is not bisected by mountains.

[511] Europe has these peninsulas, the Greek peninsula, the Italian Peninsula, the Iberian Peninsula, the Danish Peninsula.

[512] Each peninsula becomes a separate country with a separate language.

[513] China does not have big peninsulas.

[514] Europe has these rivers that flow radially, the Rhine and the Danube and the Rhone and the Elba.

[515] China's two big rivers flow in parallel and they were quickly joined by canals.

[516] So Europe was fragmented geographically and that meant competition.

[517] Whereas China was unified 21 BC and has been unified ever since.

[518] Whereas Europe has never been unified, Charlemagne couldn't do it.

[519] Napoleon couldn't do it.

[520] Augustus couldn't do it.

[521] And even today, Europe has always been divided into these different political unis that been competing with each other.

[522] There's market forces driving the whole continent.

[523] But also, who gets gunpowder first?

[524] Who has better guns?

[525] Who has better astrolades?

[526] Competition may have given the decisive advantage to Europe over China, whereas in China, There was not competition between different parts of China.

[527] I even think of like Genghis Khan having his rule and largely attributed to having stirrups on their horses, right, like a technology that then gets co -opted by the Europeans.

[528] There are many interesting things about Genghis Khan.

[529] One of the things that we've learned about recently in the steps of Central Asia for thousands of years, there have been other, quote, barbarians, there was Adela of the Hun, they were the Scythians, they were the Scythians, there were all sorts of people in the states.

[530] steps.

[531] Why was Genghis Khan, the one who creates the biggest step empire, maybe six years ago, some climatologists, they got old trees with tree rings.

[532] The width of the tree rings is a measure of rainfall.

[533] And it turns out that if you look at the annual tree rings in Central Asia for the last 2000 years, the wettest 30 years in Central Asia were the 30 years leading up to the birth of Genghis Khan.

[534] Oh, wow.

[535] He was born at the right.

[536] time when rain meant lots of hay for horses and to feed the cattle and sheep.

[537] He was a military genius, but so was Adam.

[538] Genghis Khan had the good fortune to be born at the epochs of hay for horses with rainfall.

[539] Wow.

[540] Yeah, there's so many factors and they don't fit nicely into the stories us humans like to tell.

[541] We want something real clean and simple.

[542] This guy was stronger.

[543] This guy was smarter.

[544] And there's all these contributing factors.

[545] Now, I've read a couple of great books lately, one being the molecule of more about dopamine and dopamine nation also behaves a great book I recently read.

[546] We start looking at the different biochemistry of Western people and European people.

[547] Does that interest you?

[548] Like that we as a people in America have a baseline dopamine level drastically higher than the Japanese who never left.

[549] That homogeneous population has a 0 .07 % bipolar rate and we've got a 3 % percent.

[550] bipolar rate.

[551] Like there's also a lot of biochemistry we're learning that differentiates us in this huge story of how we got here.

[552] Yes, there is indeed biochemistry.

[553] Let's take the diseases that kill the most Americans and Europeans, so -called lifestyle diseases, diabetes and hypertension.

[554] Diabetes has a genetic component, and yet natural selection is supposed to favor genes that are good for you, not genes that are bad for you.

[555] Why on Earth has natural selection resulted in the genes that lead to type 2 diabetes and type 1 diabetes, and why are they now causing epidemics of diabetes, not in Europe, but in the developing world, in Arabia, in Africa, in Latin America.

[556] There's an interesting story of natural selection.

[557] In traditional times, if you were hunter -gatherer, there's not much food.

[558] You're working hard to get your food, and then maybe once a month you kill an elephant.

[559] The people who can mobilize their insulin most quickly to store fat when they eat the elephant, those are the people who will build up the most fat and they are then capable of surviving subsequent periods of starvation.

[560] Traditionally, it was good to have hair -triggered release of insulin, but nowadays when we in the West have our three meals a day and when we eat lots of food and we're having hair -triggered release of insulin, that leads to diabetes.

[561] Historically, abundant food came in Europe only beginning the 1500 and 1600s with the arrival of New World crops.

[562] So probably what happened is that in Europe there was a silent epidemic of diabetes in the 1500s that killed off Europeans carrying the genes for diabetes with the result that Europeans today have a low frequency of genes for diabetes.

[563] The people with a high frequency of genes for diabetes are everybody other than Europeans.

[564] The highest frequency of diabetes in the world today is in China.

[565] in India.

[566] Oh, wow.

[567] Because they've had a Spartan diet and suddenly they're getting on the Western diet, which is now killing them.

[568] Wow.

[569] I'm going to create a spectrum.

[570] I've not seen this written.

[571] This is arbitrary.

[572] This is my spectrum.

[573] I'm going to put on one side, we'll call it the noble, peaceful, savage model of hunting and gathering life.

[574] Eval Harari.

[575] He, at least in his book, seems to think it was advantageous in many ways.

[576] And then I'm going to put on the other side of the spectrum, Stephen Pinker, who would say early man was completely submerged in violence and murder and raids, and that the long arc of this experiment is positive.

[577] I'm curious where you would land on that spectrum, if you even accept it as a blueprint that we might chart you on.

[578] On the one hand, it is clear, and then the other hand, that clear answer is loathed and denied by at least half, of anthropologists.

[579] So there are lots of studies of traditional societies around the world.

[580] These studies are virtually unanimous in showing that the vast majority of traditional societies had war.

[581] Many of the New Guinea's that I've worked with participated in the last wars.

[582] Why was war common in traditional society?

[583] Because there was not a centralized government.

[584] In order to end war, you've got to have a peace and you've got to be able to enforce peace.

[585] Centralized government can declare war, but a centralized government also is uniquely capable of ending war, whereas in a traditional society like New Guinea, when a tribal fight breaks out and there's a war, you make peace, but then some hothead a year later steal somebody else who's picking the war starts again.

[586] So the numbers are absolutely clear.

[587] The chances of dying of violent death were higher in traditional New Guinea society and a traditional hunter -gatherer societies, around the world than in the worst of the worst.

[588] My wife being Polish, I know these numbers.

[589] The chances of dying of violent death in Poland during World War II were lower than the chances of dying of violent death for hunter -gatherer societies around the world.

[590] The rise of state governments has reduced the frequency of war.

[591] So despite atomic bombs and despite the Holocaust, despite World War II and World War I, despite Stalin, despite the Ukrainian famine, The frequency of a violent death was higher traditionally, but that idea is just so horrible.

[592] How can you say that with atomic bombs?

[593] Well, unfortunately, atomic bombs kill a lot of people in a short time, but stone tools and bows and arrows going on perpetually kill a higher fraction of people.

[594] So Stephen Pinker is right about that.

[595] Okay.

[596] Now I'm going to ask you to look at your body of work globally.

[597] So if I look at your first book, the third chimpanzee, we're really learning about the species, Homo sapien.

[598] And then, in guns, germs, and steel, we're learning about how that species form societies and how those different societies competed against their neighbors and what made them successful or not successful.

[599] And then if we go to collapse, you start examining, well, how did these societies historically fall apart?

[600] What are the five indicators we could look at?

[601] You do a really fun job going through the Norse colonists in Greenland.

[602] You show us the factors that lead to a collapse.

[603] And then I would say now with the most recent book of upheaval, there's almost hopefully a blueprint of the way out of those collapses.

[604] You really, in my opinion, you start from where did we come from as a species?

[605] Where did we go to as societies?

[606] How did we falter?

[607] And where are we going?

[608] It is true that in retrospect, you might be tempted to see a pattern to my books.

[609] The fact is, that as I wrote them, there was no pattern whatsoever.

[610] Each book was about whatever I was most interested in at that time.

[611] After I finished collapse, I got interested in a question that led to my recent book, upheaval, because my wife, Marie, being a clinical psychologist, one of Marie's specialties, is crisis therapy, how you help individual people in crises, people with marital breakdowns, death in the family, and so on.

[612] Hearing Marie talk a lot about how people deal with personal crises made me realize That has significance for how nations deal with national crises.

[613] So my book, Upheaval, was about how nations deal with national crises, understood from the perspective of personal crises.

[614] But then the book, of course, concluded with the world crisis.

[615] We are now facing a global crisis.

[616] And I hope that the lessons that I've learned from Marie, and that can be applied to nations about scaling up with the whole world and world crises.

[617] So if we can agree a little bit upon that, does it interest you on an interest?

[618] introspective level that this trajectory of your books also a bit mirrors the trajectory of a human life and that in youth we have a lot of optimism and belief in some progress and some change and then perhaps towards the end of our life we're a little bit nervous about what we're getting rid of and what's going away and what things maybe we need to protect how we're off course.

[619] Do you think that that is kind of a typical trajectory of a human being on planet Earth?

[620] And do you think your work at all mirrored just your own life course?

[621] Interesting.

[622] A couple of things there.

[623] Young people today, my son's generation, are much more concerned about the future of the world than was my generation for good reason, because the future of the world is in doubt now.

[624] Yeah, there's an imminent threat.

[625] And it's not clear whether we're going to get past the year 2050.

[626] But on the other hand, there are things that make me cautiously optimistic.

[627] And so my book, Guns, Germs, and Steel does not end on a doom and gloom note.

[628] It ends on a cautiously optimistic note.

[629] If you press me to it and you ask me, what are the chances that will survive past the year 2050?

[630] I would say, I'm a cautious optimist.

[631] The chances are at least 51 % that will have a good ending, and only 49 % will have a band ending.

[632] Depends upon the choices made by my son's generation.

[633] It depends upon the choices made by governments, some of which make good choices and some of which make bad choices.

[634] Depends upon the choices made by big businesses.

[635] Twenty years ago, I would say big businesses of the most destructive force on the planet.

[636] But increasingly, some big businesses making good decisions because they recognize it's good for their bottom line and also because CEOs have children and grandchildren.

[637] What good is it for my company to be rich if my kids are going to die in the year 2050?

[638] Okay.

[639] Now, here's where I will get into trouble.

[640] People will hate me about this opinion, and it's sacrilegious for me to suggest this right now.

[641] I don't know that it's different right now for your kids than it was for you than it was for someone in 1900.

[642] If we started this conversation with Rockefeller and the state of medicine at that time at the turn of the century, we had really no medicine.

[643] There was no research medicine.

[644] People were dying of completely curable things.

[645] And then we move into a very well -researched and predicted world famine that was supposed to occur until we created this new wheat that's now fucking us up with the increased gluten.

[646] But anyways, we move into World War I. We're going to all kill ourselves in this war.

[647] Then World War II, we leave that with the atomic bomb.

[648] We're certain that we're going to die of communism.

[649] There's going to be nuclear holocaust.

[650] That's quicker than 2050.

[651] I don't really think there's anything all that unique.

[652] I also think if history shows us anything that everything we feared, we somehow got through.

[653] I feel like there's a tinge of arrogance in our prediction about this.

[654] You're half right about that.

[655] Oh, okay, good.

[656] If I can get half right with you, I'm delighted.

[657] Until about the year 1900, people were not concerned about the end of the world, and there was nothing producing the end of the world.

[658] The first threat to the world was World War I. But you're absolutely right that the first thing that could wipe everybody off the planet were the atomic bombs.

[659] And so in the late 40s and early 50s, yes, when I was in my teens, we were worried about a nuclear holocaust, and we're still worried about nuclear holocaust.

[660] And when I think back on my life since the late 1940s, in the 40s and 50s, we were worried about nuclear exchange between Russia and the United States.

[661] Subsequently, we are now concerned about climate change.

[662] We're concerned about resource.

[663] depletion.

[664] So there are realistic threats to civilization that were not here in 1900.

[665] You're absolutely correct that it's not now for the first time that we face an end of the world.

[666] The atomic bombs were the first real threat to the end of the world.

[667] But just like we, quote, got over the atomic bomb threat, it required everyone to get on the same page.

[668] It's the same thing here with climate.

[669] It requires everyone to acknowledge it's a threat.

[670] I agree.

[671] And I'm not positive what my issue with It is.

[672] It's just, I think the...

[673] You don't like things told what to do.

[674] No, no. I think it's the prevailing thought that we're in some unique scenario.

[675] I bump up against a little bit.

[676] Also, that it's pure pessimism.

[677] Yes, climate change is totally real.

[678] There's no question.

[679] And there's going to be really predictable and measurable outcomes that are disastrous.

[680] There's also going to be a lot of things that happen we didn't see coming.

[681] I'm a little hesitant to just sign on that it's one thing, that it's all disaster and collapse.

[682] Is that scary for me to even suggest?

[683] Because I'm not saying let's not do anything.

[684] I think renewable energy, for its own sake, should be a goal.

[685] I think clean drinking water for its own sake should be a goal.

[686] But I saw the golden age of the world and I'm about to witness the end of times, it feels a little dogmatic and religious.

[687] Too many of my colleagues who share my views about environmental problems preach doom and gloom.

[688] And if you preach doom and gloom and the world listens to you, why should anyone make an effort?

[689] I think it just results in apathy.

[690] Apathy and hopelessness.

[691] You have to give people hope, even if the hope is only 51%.

[692] And so even if I believed that the chance of coming out okay, or only 49%, I would tell a lie.

[693] I would say I believe it's 51%, because if I said it's 49%, nobody's going to make an effort.

[694] I have a question, because you have such an insanely prolific body of work.

[695] Is there anything that you look back on in your books or just your research or anything that you feel was a mistake or wrong or anything you'd change?

[696] It would be shameless if I were to say, no, nothing I said is wrong.

[697] Obviously, there are lots of details we've learned, for example.

[698] In Gunzger and Steel, I talked about nine centers of agriculture.

[699] it's now clear that the Indian subcontinent is a 10th center of agriculture.

[700] That's something no. We've learned about multiple parallel domestications of barley and pigs.

[701] We didn't know that when I wrote Gunn's German Steel.

[702] So we've learned lots of new things that corrected things that I said before that enrich the understanding that we had before.

[703] Or another example, when I wrote the third chimpanzee, my first book, we did not know whether Neanderthals hybridized with us Fomo sapiens.

[704] Now, we know, yes, Neanderthals did hybridize with Homo sapiens, and I and both of you and all of our listeners, except people in Africa, there aren't Neanderthal genes.

[705] Everybody outside of Africa is Neanderthal.

[706] That's something we've learned.

[707] The basic stories I told in my book, they are right.

[708] And many of the details have enriched that correct picture.

[709] Yeah.

[710] I am just incredibly flattered to have gotten this much of your time.

[711] I mean, what a delight.

[712] Thank you so much for giving me your time.

[713] Oh, well, when I get the time machine, it's around the corner.

[714] We think in the next five, ten years, we're going to have our hands on one.

[715] I'm going to take a gallbladder class in 2000.

[716] Yeah, I'm going to make sure I get into some gallbladder study.

[717] Well, be well, and I wish you and your family well, and I just thank you for all the work you've done.

[718] It's so interesting and so comprehensive and so inspiring.

[719] Bye.

[720] Be well.

[721] Over and out.

[722] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[723] If you dare.

[724] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[725] We've just learned the Adnan.

[726] Yeah, this is out of prison for us.

[727] Yes.

[728] I mean, that's the original debate.

[729] That's the O .D. What's G stand for?

[730] Original.

[731] O .G stands for original gangster.

[732] Yeah.

[733] You're right.

[734] We just need O .D. overdose.

[735] Oh, I don't like it.

[736] Original debate.

[737] Yeah.

[738] Yeah, you're right.

[739] I don't feel good about calling it the OD.

[740] Okay, OGD.

[741] We'll figure it out.

[742] We'll figure it out.

[743] We'll play with it, duck, duck, goose.

[744] Anywho, our original debate, Adnan, he is being released.

[745] I know.

[746] My dad sent me, my mom sent me, well, my dad sent to me and my mom that my brother just texted it to me. Why don't you tell everyone about the text between your mom and dad?

[747] I think that's really worth.

[748] Is it?

[749] Yeah.

[750] It was really funny.

[751] So group texts, and also they're in the same house, probably sitting across from each other.

[752] My dad sends me a text.

[753] Baltimore prosecutors moved to vacate on Syed.

[754] It's a link to a news story.

[755] Exactly.

[756] And then I said, that's so great.

[757] And my dad said, many years in jail.

[758] And I said, I know it's so sad.

[759] And then he said, they may not try him again.

[760] And my mom said, I heard also.

[761] I heard also the guy I'm making a murderer is freed the innocence project got him out and then my dad just wrote I'm not sure about that period that was as nice as he could muster he's like what he wanted to say he was like that's not true hon and he's like oh fuck okay I can't say that what else he must have drafted that response four times in his head I mean I know that sentence like he says that sentence a lot well that was my response when you showed me this yes he says that sentence it's his go -to sentence when he knows it's wrong the burden of always being right was read it again how do he said i don't know if that no he said i'm not sure about that and he is he is that's what's cute is he's dead sure that that didn't happen so he's i heard also the guy he's like taking it over the top i heard also the guy i'm making murder is free the innocence project got him out i'm not sure about that and then my mom yeah you're right He's still in jail.

[762] Oh, my God.

[763] Yeah, you're right.

[764] He's still in jail.

[765] Anytime I disagree with something I just heard, I try my hardest to go like, oh, is that out?

[766] Like, I, you know, I'll try to say it as a question.

[767] Sure.

[768] Oh, he did get out?

[769] I didn't hear that.

[770] Yeah, I didn't hear that as something I would, you would say.

[771] Yeah, I didn't hear that, that news.

[772] You guys are pretty similar.

[773] Anyway, that was hilarious.

[774] Okay, I have a big update.

[775] Oh, exciting.

[776] A huge update.

[777] I had a very intense Saturday night.

[778] What?

[779] It doesn't involve...

[780] The masseuse?

[781] It does not involve the massage therapist.

[782] An intense Saturday night, and I'm just hearing about it?

[783] Yeah.

[784] Oh, my God.

[785] So, Laura and I went to lunch.

[786] Lunch was great.

[787] Okay.

[788] We went to Honor Bar.

[789] Wonderful.

[790] Derivative of Houston.

[791] Not derivative.

[792] Chicken sandwich.

[793] Sister.

[794] Yeah.

[795] Same family.

[796] Same family.

[797] We had a great lunch, and then I purchased something from the row on the way home.

[798] While you're driving.

[799] What do you mean?

[800] Well, on your way.

[801] No, no, no, I stopped by the store.

[802] Oh, they have a brick and mortar.

[803] They do.

[804] Oh, okay.

[805] I didn't realize that.

[806] So it was a great day.

[807] Yeah, perfect.

[808] I get home and it's so early, and I'm like, I'm going to chill the rest of the day.

[809] I'm going to edit.

[810] I'm going to do some cleaning, so, you know, I'm hunkering down.

[811] How many wines at lunch?

[812] Two.

[813] Okay, great.

[814] I was like, okay, I'm home for the night.

[815] This is fun.

[816] I'll make dinner.

[817] What should I make?

[818] And I was doing all this research, recipe research.

[819] I asked Cali.

[820] Watching so many videos.

[821] I think there's a new, I'm not cheating on Allison, but there is a new.

[822] Sheriff Vintown?

[823] There's a new show I might pick up.

[824] Okay.

[825] I'm not going to say anything until I know I like it.

[826] Okay.

[827] So I ask Callie, what should I make for dinner?

[828] I do this sometimes.

[829] She said, oh, I just made this really good chili.

[830] I was like, oh, that sounds good.

[831] Send me the recipe.

[832] She sent it.

[833] I was like, this seems like a lot of ingredients.

[834] But fuck it.

[835] This is my night.

[836] Order all of them on Instacart.

[837] Shout out Instacart.

[838] It comes.

[839] I start making the chili.

[840] First stop, onion chopping.

[841] Yep.

[842] Okay.

[843] Okay.

[844] My knife work is impeccable.

[845] I'm getting it really diced, really nicely.

[846] Do you have a technique?

[847] Do you do it?

[848] I cut a grid.

[849] I did the, I do a grid as well, if I'm, if I'm dicing.

[850] All right, yeah.

[851] Which I was.

[852] Boom!

[853] Slice.

[854] Oh, oh.

[855] Finger slice.

[856] Uh -oh.

[857] Yeah.

[858] Okay.

[859] Which finger?

[860] Middle.

[861] Uh -huh.

[862] Middle finger and it was immediate, so much blood.

[863] Okay.

[864] Ever up.

[865] I was like, this is fine.

[866] Take deep breath that don't panic.

[867] Right.

[868] Wrapped it up, held it, you know, it was holding it for a while with pressure.

[869] And I was like, it's probably fine.

[870] I take it off.

[871] Just.

[872] still, like, pouring blood.

[873] And I was like, okay, that's not great because I had held it there for a bit.

[874] So I did it again and still for a while, still bleeding really bad.

[875] So then I was like, I wonder if I can crazy glue this shot.

[876] And I thought maybe Max will know since he's a chef and I'm sure he's been around a lot of cut fingers.

[877] So I texted him and Callie and I said, hey, I just cut myself pretty bad, chopping an onion.

[878] And do you know if I can crazy glue it?

[879] And he said, well, first, he responded very fast, which I appreciate it.

[880] And he said, oh, no, are you okay?

[881] Also, just, like, put a lot of pressure on it.

[882] And I was like, okay, I've, I did that.

[883] And, you know, I think most people think I'm not putting enough pressure.

[884] I had a few responses like this.

[885] You'll hear the whole story.

[886] I don't know that I, there's an amount of pressure where you're pushing blood out of it, too.

[887] This whole a lot of pressure thing, I think needs to be, when you have a big gaping hole in you've got cloth in there, maybe, but just wrenching on your finger that's cut.

[888] I don't know if I agree with that.

[889] I don't think it's not like pressure squeezing.

[890] It's pressure with closing, you know?

[891] All right.

[892] Anyway, so it's like, I've been doing it.

[893] He was like for a while.

[894] And I was like, okay, okay.

[895] So then I do this.

[896] I keep checking still really bad.

[897] Yeah.

[898] Lots of time is going by and this is not stopping.

[899] And then I am starting to turn a little bit.

[900] Like, I need to figure something.

[901] out.

[902] You're ramping up a little bit.

[903] Uh -huh.

[904] I text my friend who's a nurse.

[905] Shout out Alex.

[906] She isn't, she has a baby and busy, and so she didn't respond right away.

[907] And, you know, time is a ticking and the blood is still gushing.

[908] And then Anna texted me, are you at all time?

[909] Because I had posted a picture of Jess and I at all time, but it wasn't from that night.

[910] And Rob also texted.

[911] Okay.

[912] Little misleading.

[913] It was.

[914] Yeah.

[915] Anyway, so she's like, are you at all time?

[916] time and I was like no I cut my finger you know I'm like immediately like I cut my finger and I want to know if I can put crazy glue on it and do we know anyone who's a nurse and then she you know at this point Callie and Max have ghosted me okay they're they've done as much as they can that's right yeah yeah and so Anna was like actually I do know someone so then she goes away for a second and then she comes back and she's like okay my friend she'll talk to you so then I I asked the friend, but, okay, so by this time, it's been like an hour and 15 minutes, and it is slowing.

[917] Okay.

[918] So I was like, okay.

[919] Maybe you're running out of blood at this point.

[920] And so I tell the friend, it seems like it's slowing, so I think that's good.

[921] She was like, okay, that's good.

[922] You know, fingers bleed a lot.

[923] It's probably fine.

[924] Just keep an eye on it.

[925] If it turns blue or, like, weird stuff's happening with it that feels abnormal, go to the ER.

[926] She said, don't put crazy glue on it.

[927] Okay.

[928] Okay.

[929] Definitive no. Yes.

[930] Okay.

[931] And then my friend Alex, she calls me and she's like, what's going on?

[932] I was like, it's stopped.

[933] This is silly.

[934] Don't worry.

[935] And she's like, it probably just was really deep, but it's fine.

[936] Don't put crazy glue.

[937] Okay.

[938] Two for two.

[939] Two medical professionals who said that would have been a bad idea.

[940] You hear about it, though, right?

[941] I've heard this.

[942] Yeah.

[943] Yeah.

[944] I might even do it.

[945] I mean, like, what's the difference between that in stitches.

[946] That's what I thought.

[947] So I was feeling like you.

[948] I was feeling arrogant.

[949] Yeah.

[950] But then I was glad that I waited.

[951] Right.

[952] You have a Band -Aid over it at this point.

[953] Then I put a Band -Aid on it.

[954] You know, I'm checking it.

[955] So I'm wasting a ton of band -dains.

[956] Yes.

[957] You can't stop looking at it.

[958] Can't stop looking at it.

[959] You're like your four -year -old.

[960] It's still not bleeding.

[961] Great, great, great, great.

[962] Then I feel confident.

[963] It's done.

[964] What an hour and a half.

[965] I was about to ask.

[966] That was an hour and a half?

[967] Yes.

[968] I'm still making chili during this?

[969] No, so I'm just sitting.

[970] In the doldrums.

[971] What do you call?

[972] Panic Zone.

[973] Ring 9 of Internos.

[974] Dante's Inferno.

[975] Pergatory.

[976] You're in purgatory.

[977] That's right.

[978] In the meantime, I'm trying to Instacart from CVS, the real...

[979] Butterfly stitches?

[980] No, like Dermabond, which is the glue, essentially.

[981] You know, my thing gets canceled, then I have to order it again.

[982] That's a whole thing.

[983] These stories always are.

[984] I know.

[985] They're never straightforward.

[986] I know.

[987] I try to distract myself with an edit.

[988] Oh, okay.

[989] But it's, I can't.

[990] You use your finger, yeah.

[991] Yeah.

[992] So that one was going poorly.

[993] Anyway, stops.

[994] It's over.

[995] Yay.

[996] I'm going to keep making my chili.

[997] Yes, resume.

[998] It was delicious.

[999] I ate it at 10 o 'clock when it was ready.

[1000] And I was resentful towards it.

[1001] Were you walking at all in the night with toots?

[1002] No, not that I know of.

[1003] Okay, because sometimes when I pound some chili late at night and then I go to sleep, I'll actually wake up because it's such an enormous volume of gas.

[1004] My body thinks I'm about to poop.

[1005] So it's not letting it.

[1006] And then I have to wake up and give it permission to let out this big balloon of chili.

[1007] Okay, that didn't happen.

[1008] It didn't.

[1009] Anyway, my body had bigger fish to fry.

[1010] We'll get there.

[1011] So eat the chili.

[1012] And then time to check in on my Band -Aid.

[1013] But really, I was like, I think I can let this.

[1014] Oh, no, that's why.

[1015] So my friend Alex was like, keep the Band -Aid on now for some pressure.

[1016] But if it's dumb -lating, it's dumb -lating.

[1017] Great.

[1018] Before bed, take it off.

[1019] Maybe put some new sport on it and let it be.

[1020] So then I take off the band -aid and I look and it's bleeding again.

[1021] Uh -oh.

[1022] It's back.

[1023] It's back.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] And back made me very scared.

[1026] Because I was like, hey, it didn't stop.

[1027] Yes.

[1028] And that was all an illusion.

[1029] And then I texted on it.

[1030] I'm bleeding again.

[1031] Oh, Jesus.

[1032] Poor, poor Anna.

[1033] I text at Caliomax.

[1034] I'm bleeding again.

[1035] I'm leaving again.

[1036] Rob, you were so close to getting a text from me. Because I was like, do I need to get stitches?

[1037] Like, is this a situation?

[1038] Situation.

[1039] Situation.

[1040] And then I started to really spiral because I was like, how am I going to do that?

[1041] It's 11.

[1042] Uh -huh.

[1043] I'm by myself.

[1044] I don't want to drive to the hospital there that's kind of creepy.

[1045] I also hate to tell you this, but 11 o 'clock on a Saturday is the last time you want to go to the yard.

[1046] Now you're getting in there with all the drunks.

[1047] Like now it's a shit show.

[1048] They're busy at 11 on a Saturday.

[1049] Yes.

[1050] They're busy and I'm scared.

[1051] Sure.

[1052] I was like, I'm too scared to go there by myself.

[1053] I'm so alone.

[1054] I'm lonely and I'm alone.

[1055] And I don't have any person.

[1056] Those feelings are coming in.

[1057] No one is responding to me. I'm alone on this planet.

[1058] Yes.

[1059] And I'm going to die.

[1060] I'm going to bleed out because of it.

[1061] Yep.

[1062] When just earlier that day, when I was buying my expensive purchase, I was like, I'm so.

[1063] independent.

[1064] I'm so happy to be single.

[1065] I was because I was like, I can make these purchases.

[1066] I don't have to ask anyone.

[1067] I'm doing my own thing.

[1068] I had two glasses of wine at lunch.

[1069] I live my life.

[1070] The rest of your days totally at your, whatever you decide, you know, no compromises.

[1071] That's right.

[1072] Maybe your boyfriend wanted a chili.

[1073] You'd have been cooking fucking chicken.

[1074] Could have saved you.

[1075] Yeah.

[1076] So I'm on.

[1077] You're on a high.

[1078] It was a roller coaster.

[1079] Yeah.

[1080] Then you were lonely and sad.

[1081] Not only lonely.

[1082] I was going to die because I was.

[1083] alone.

[1084] Right.

[1085] Right.

[1086] Yep.

[1087] Okay.

[1088] So, Anna, are you still close?

[1089] I might need to go to the ER.

[1090] Then I text Jess.

[1091] He's working.

[1092] Okay.

[1093] So he's like, Jess is working.

[1094] I know.

[1095] So he's at least awake.

[1096] Maybe he can take me to the ER when he gets off work.

[1097] Yeah.

[1098] Because also at this point, then my finger's like pulsing and then I do the wrong thing.

[1099] You push on it.

[1100] I Google.

[1101] Oh, yeah.

[1102] I knew.

[1103] I wasn't supposed to.

[1104] But nobody was responding.

[1105] Right.

[1106] And you were starting to have a tantrum.

[1107] Of course, it says if it's gushing blood, you need to go to the ER immediately because you might have hit an artery.

[1108] And I was like, in the tip of my finger.

[1109] So then I'm Googling, like, where are your arteries in your hand?

[1110] Most pictures didn't have any arteries in the tip.

[1111] Yeah.

[1112] But then, of course, I found, like, two pictures where it was, like, leading all the way up there.

[1113] Amateur artists.

[1114] I guess so.

[1115] Not doleful.

[1116] Sci -fi artists.

[1117] No. Well, that's what happened.

[1118] I totally hit this artery.

[1119] I just was like, I guess I'll die.

[1120] But Jess said, I'll take you or no?

[1121] I don't think we got full surrender.

[1122] You passed out from blood loss and woke up the next morning.

[1123] No, no one was responding yet.

[1124] Okay.

[1125] So by the time I was just like, I guess I'm going to wrap this up.

[1126] I'm going to lay here and like maybe I'll make it.

[1127] Yes.

[1128] Well, because then I was like, should I call mine one?

[1129] Oh, my God.

[1130] An ambulance.

[1131] They put you in an ambulance.

[1132] Oh, my God.

[1133] I was like, I would rather die.

[1134] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1135] The EMT knock on my door.

[1136] You know it would be bone dry by the time they got that.

[1137] You know it.

[1138] Also, even if you go to the ER, the second you get there, it'll definitely be over.

[1139] It's Murphy's Law.

[1140] Exactly.

[1141] And then I'd have to be like, it already stopped once and it started again.

[1142] And so, yes.

[1143] Making a case.

[1144] So then I text Laura.

[1145] You know, I'm trying to, I need people, someone to answer me. No, I was in Nashville.

[1146] You were.

[1147] Do you think you would have text me?

[1148] Well, I thought about texting both of you, you and Kristen.

[1149] But I was like, what are they going to do?

[1150] Yeah, we're in Nashville.

[1151] What are they going to do?

[1152] Anyway, Jess responds, you know, fingers are.

[1153] Disposable.

[1154] I think you said, you have 10 of them.

[1155] I think you said, like, they're resilient.

[1156] You know, then, because just just as my brother, I was getting mad.

[1157] Yeah, I was like, he doesn't understand how bad this is.

[1158] Like, I'm dying.

[1159] Yeah, maybe go on the attack.

[1160] No, and he was really great.

[1161] He was like rapid, you know, put a light, you know, he's telling me all these tricks and tips.

[1162] He was great.

[1163] And then Laura, so then people are starting to all respond at once.

[1164] Now it's all hands on deck.

[1165] Monica's in a panic attack.

[1166] Giving me some reassurance.

[1167] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1168] You know, I bring up the artery to everyone.

[1169] and everyone's like, that's not possible.

[1170] Right.

[1171] Your wrist, right?

[1172] Well, no, there are some in your hand.

[1173] And a couple in your palm.

[1174] But not up here.

[1175] Okay.

[1176] And, you know, elevated.

[1177] And if you have to sleep, like put the pillow up, you know, giving me what I need.

[1178] Anyway, so I made it through the night.

[1179] Great.

[1180] You woke up in the morning and what was the state of it then?

[1181] You ripped that Band -Aid off first thing?

[1182] Or are you like, I'm not even think about this.

[1183] No, I mean, I was thinking about it in my sleep, I'm sure.

[1184] Like a - I could have just, I could imagine where you like, Now that you've slept, you've calmed down.

[1185] Yeah.

[1186] And I could see you going like, I'm not even going to get into that whole thing for a little minute.

[1187] No, I took it off.

[1188] Yeah, okay, great, great.

[1189] Okay, it's not bleeding anymore.

[1190] But it doesn't look awesome, but whatever.

[1191] I was like, maybe I'll get a scar and like, that's cool.

[1192] Callie and Max had fallen asleep and Anna.

[1193] So they all, then I'm waking up to all these.

[1194] Concern texts.

[1195] Oh, yeah.

[1196] I had also re -texted on his friend, the nurse and my friend.

[1197] Uh -huh.

[1198] Uh, so yeah, everyone's responded.

[1199] It's fine.

[1200] And, yeah, so then I've been cleaning it.

[1201] I had a Band -Aid on it yesterday because it was open and hurting.

[1202] And do you see?

[1203] Not from all the way over here.

[1204] Okay, I'll show you.

[1205] Okay, show me. And then also then I realized I had another cut.

[1206] Because you didn't have a Band -Aid on or not.

[1207] You came in.

[1208] I got to position your hand because my eyes have gotten so fucking bad.

[1209] Oh, sure.

[1210] Well, what's interesting is it's both a slice and a chunk.

[1211] Yeah.

[1212] You did a little bit of a chunk.

[1213] But yeah, I bet that thing was really pumping.

[1214] Did you put pressure on it?

[1215] And do you see this other little slice?

[1216] Was that in the same hack?

[1217] Wow, you really got yourself.

[1218] I didn't notice the other slice because I was so obsessed with this.

[1219] And that one just closed on its own without any attention.

[1220] It didn't bleed like crazy.

[1221] But when I woke up, I was like, why does my other finger hurt?

[1222] Then I saw the little slice.

[1223] Anywho, I did reopen it this morning.

[1224] my hair.

[1225] That hurt pretty bad.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] God, that sucks.

[1228] So I just need to maybe keep, I don't know what to do because you're supposed to keep it open, but I also want to keep it close.

[1229] You see those commercials, things heal so much faster with a Band -Aid on them.

[1230] That was Band -Aid .com said that.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] You're the trusted brand, trusted source.

[1233] Yeah, I think you're supposed to keep it covered in Neosborn and covered.

[1234] No, because then it gets squishy and like you want to make sure, I guess if I do it very lightly, but you want to make sure circulation, it's, it needs air.

[1235] It does.

[1236] According to the nurse.

[1237] Anywho.

[1238] So that was my Saturday.

[1239] What did your dad say?

[1240] I'm not sure about that.

[1241] Oh, my God.

[1242] Anyway, so that was my eventful weekend.

[1243] Do you want to talk about your eventful weekend?

[1244] Well, you bring up something I've been wanting to address, which is, I think some people misunderstood me, which is 50 % of all people with Moonschausen.

[1245] Oh, my God.

[1246] You know, I've got to make this really clear.

[1247] Okay.

[1248] 50 % of people with Moonschausen are in the medical care.

[1249] Okay.

[1250] Nurses.

[1251] Almost no nurses have Moonshausen.

[1252] Of course.

[1253] I think because I said I always ask people when they're nurses, if they have Moonshausen, it's very much a joke.

[1254] So both things are true.

[1255] Almost no one has Moonshaushausen.

[1256] Exactly.

[1257] So 0 .001 % of nurses have Moonchousen, but 50 % of people in Moon Chousins are nurses.

[1258] Yeah.

[1259] I just want to make that really clear that I wasn't implying.

[1260] that really did the nurses come for you the nurses are cool the nurses have a good sense of humor about it yeah like hey asked everyone on my ward if they had moonshousen no one here so yeah i don't i think almost no no nurses have moon chousin just i think half of all moon chousins people are nurses yeah the two categories yeah white men all shooters are white men that's right not all white men are shooters and a lot of white men have munchausen's 30 to 50 year olds have Yeah, unmarried, single.

[1261] David Ferrier types.

[1262] Yes.

[1263] And Sean White.

[1264] And Nicholas Holt.

[1265] Yes, Nicholas Holt has it.

[1266] Sean White has it.

[1267] Oh, so I went to Tennessee.

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] Had a great time.

[1270] Went to Bristol.

[1271] It was so much fun.

[1272] What a cool event to go to.

[1273] It's a night race.

[1274] It's a very legendary track.

[1275] There's like 130 ,000 people on the stands.

[1276] It's enormous arena.

[1277] It's not an arena because there's no roof on it.

[1278] huge like it's it almost feels CGI when you walk in and you see that many people around this half mile track fastest half mile in the world wow they're like going 130 miles an hour in this little half mile track I met a bunch of really cool drivers they were all super friendly it was really really fun I almost got into one fight but I didn't I avoided it oh I know this is a braggy story but I think it's worth it okay but I also want to hear about there's this really big dude I think teed up to the max like super muscular older than me like probably 55 or something looked wealthy seemed entitled we're in this big group at a driver's meeting there's a lot of people a lot of people want pictures with Kristen and I she's fine this guy is yelling was like over here no no let's get a picture with them let's get a picture with them and while he's saying let's get a picture with him he's just reaching behind Kristen and grabbing her back and pulling her towards him as he's shouting to his wife he's not even looking at Kristen and I had one of my little moments okay and I grabbed grabbed his arm, and I said, you can ask her, don't you fucking touch her.

[1279] Okay.

[1280] And it was, you know, depending on how he wants to go with it, that it's all on the table now.

[1281] And he looked at me and he goes, all right.

[1282] And he put his fist out and wanted a fist bump.

[1283] Oh, okay.

[1284] And so we pounded fists.

[1285] The look was like, okay, I got you.

[1286] So it got a little dicey.

[1287] So that was the wrong way to deal with the situation.

[1288] Okay.

[1289] That was the old -fashioned Dax way.

[1290] And it's the wrong way.

[1291] Now, what happened that was really, I had to call Aaron almost immediately.

[1292] We go into this restaurant, Sparries.

[1293] It's a nice steak place that I've been once before with Huey and Hayes.

[1294] They have a salad bar.

[1295] Oh, fun.

[1296] You know I fucking love a salad bar.

[1297] I do too.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] We walk in, we're seated in the corner, the four of us, at this round table.

[1300] And then against the wall at a two top is a man who's probably 65 and his wife, who I'm guessing, is about 58.

[1301] Okay.

[1302] I barely even notice them.

[1303] I get up to go get my salad from the salad bar, and he starts going nuts, the guy.

[1304] This is all coming from Huey's telling me this.

[1305] He starts going to his, ostensibly to his wife at first.

[1306] Can you even believe this, letting that guy in here with that t -shirt on?

[1307] Hey, COVID's over, buddy.

[1308] Time to start acting.

[1309] I don't know what he said.

[1310] He goes, I cannot believe.

[1311] Now he's yelling so that Huey and Hazel hear him.

[1312] He's going, I can't even believe they let him.

[1313] I would refuse him service in a t -shirt.

[1314] He's absolutely aboplectic that I'm wearing a t -shirt.

[1315] And he's now yelling it to Hayes and Huey.

[1316] I don't know any of this is going on.

[1317] I'm at the salad bar with Kristen.

[1318] Come back to the seat.

[1319] And Huey's pretty mad.

[1320] Like he and his mind want to tell that guy to shut the fuck up.

[1321] But he was afraid like, oh, I don't want to get these two ensnared in something that would be public, right?

[1322] So when I sit down, he was like, oh, my God, you should have heard this guy.

[1323] He's lost his mind that you're in a t -shirt.

[1324] He was yelling for everyone to hear that you should be kicked out and that you have no class.

[1325] And so as he's saying this, I'm, of course, in my mind, I'm preparing my confrontation with the guy.

[1326] Like, what is it, sir, that you think makes you classier than me other than the collar on your shirt?

[1327] Like, where'd you graduate?

[1328] What is your metric?

[1329] Like, I'm already preparing this argument.

[1330] And Kristen goes, you should buy his dinner right now.

[1331] And I was like, oh, my gosh, should I do that?

[1332] I mean, it felt so counterintuitive.

[1333] But right when she said at our waiter, which we had the same waiter, dropped the check right at that moment and then walked away and he walked over to our table to ask if we wanted drinks.

[1334] And I said, oh, would you mind?

[1335] I'd love to buy their dinner.

[1336] He's like, oh, do you know him?

[1337] And I go, yes, yes.

[1338] I love them.

[1339] I just love to treat him.

[1340] So I give my credit card.

[1341] He brings the bill back.

[1342] I, you know, give the guy a good tip.

[1343] I'm assuming he gave him good service.

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] Pay for it.

[1346] And now around this time, the guy is learning.

[1347] that I've bought his dinner.

[1348] And so he's like, what?

[1349] Who?

[1350] What?

[1351] He bought my, now the wife turns around.

[1352] And she looks over at me and I go very softly and sincerely.

[1353] I heard that my t -shirt might have offended you guys and I just wanted to apologize.

[1354] I did not mean to ruin your dinner.

[1355] I hope you'll let me buy it.

[1356] That's nice.

[1357] They were so fucked up by that, right?

[1358] Yeah, of course.

[1359] He goes, he goes, let's get out of here.

[1360] And he stood up and he took the, he walked around the back of the restaurant because he would have to walk in front of our table to go out the exit, the normal way anyone.

[1361] He walked all the way to the back of the restaurant behind the salad bar so that he could exit out the other door.

[1362] And I was like, oh my God, that wasn't the most genius response ever.

[1363] Did the wife say anything?

[1364] She was just embarrassed because now I was a nice person who bought their dinner after her husband made this big scene.

[1365] Oh, my God.

[1366] And I was like, oh, my God, that is the way that you deal with those things.

[1367] It is.

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] for me to fight with him and then him to leave feeling correct.

[1370] Yeah.

[1371] Because I would have certainly gotten aggressive and he would have been right.

[1372] Yeah.

[1373] And then I would have been confirmed in the fact that I thought he was an asshole.

[1374] It was so Jedi.

[1375] That's great.

[1376] Oh, I loved it.

[1377] It made me so much happier because normally I'd be leaving that situation going, I probably shouldn't raise my voice.

[1378] I probably embarrassed Hayes in Houston and Kristen.

[1379] They come to this restaurant.

[1380] You know, I would have all these regrets.

[1381] Yeah.

[1382] But I didn't.

[1383] I felt clean as a whistle.

[1384] Good.

[1385] That's great.

[1386] It was the best, I think it's the best, $160 I have spent in a decade.

[1387] That's great.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] I'm learning as I get older.

[1390] Yeah, we all are, I hope.

[1391] Yeah.

[1392] What an asshole.

[1393] He's not.

[1394] That person's not learning as he gets older.

[1395] Aaron, when I told Aaron, Aaron was laughing so hard.

[1396] And he goes, oh, my God.

[1397] We just would never think to do that.

[1398] We just want to fight everyone.

[1399] He goes, well, that's so much better.

[1400] He goes, he's going to be thinking about this.

[1401] He goes, I bet his New Year's resolution this year is going to be to stop thinking about this.

[1402] I was like, oh, my.

[1403] God, I hope that's true.

[1404] That would be the ultimate.

[1405] Crazy.

[1406] Oh, man. This is for Jared Diamond.

[1407] Mm, Jared Diamond.

[1408] Intimidating guest.

[1409] Very.

[1410] It's just the level of knowledge on everything.

[1411] And not to be ages, but he's quite old.

[1412] He's 85.

[1413] Yeah.

[1414] To be so far ahead of everyone and be 85, like, it's bonkers.

[1415] No, minimally, I don't even know if it has to be ages as much as, like, how fucking inspirational.

[1416] If I end up as sharp as he is at 85, I'm going to be delighted.

[1417] No, but it's not sharp.

[1418] I mean, he is extremely sharp, but he's still so much smarter than everyone younger than him.

[1419] Yes.

[1420] Okay, so you said, and we've talked about this before, but you said 0 .07 % of Japanese people are bipolar and were three.

[1421] I did find a whole chart.

[1422] Oh, a chart.

[1423] I hope I said These aren't the numbers, but something like this.

[1424] No, you didn't.

[1425] I didn't.

[1426] No. Because 3 % is too high, I think.

[1427] I don't think it's that high.

[1428] Okay.

[1429] The United States has the highest lifetime and 12 -month bipolar syndrome.

[1430] Rate of bipolar?

[1431] 4 .4 % and then 2 .8 % for the 12 months.

[1432] So it's even higher than I guess.

[1433] I mean lifetime as 4 .4.

[1434] India has the lowest.

[1435] India does.

[1436] 0 .1 and then 0 .1.

[1437] 0 .1.

[1438] It says exceptions were found for Japan, a high -income country with very low lifetime and 12 -month, 0 .7 and 0 .2.

[1439] Okay.

[1440] Yeah.

[1441] Oh, I said 0 .07.

[1442] Yeah.

[1443] Did I say, oopsies?

[1444] All right.

[1445] Now we know.

[1446] I got a 7 correct.

[1447] You did.

[1448] That's pretty impressive.

[1449] Also, he said, I can't believe I'm going to fact check Jared Diamond, but I am.

[1450] He was wrong about everything.

[1451] No. He said China and India have the highest frequency of diabetes.

[1452] diabetes currently and oh my god it happened again got to go to my history my favorite thing really quick do you think he meant the fastest growing rate of diabetes because the U .S. has to have the highest rate of it doesn't it doesn't well no okay top 15 countries with the highest rate of diabetes this was 2021 so maybe can I guess one yeah Tonga?

[1453] No. Not in the top of 15.

[1454] Number one, Pakistan.

[1455] Really?

[1456] It says 30 .8 % are diabetic in Pakistan.

[1457] Highest rate of diabetes.

[1458] Wow.

[1459] Then French Polynesia.

[1460] Oh, okay.

[1461] Kuwait.

[1462] Kuwait is three.

[1463] Nauru.

[1464] Nauru is four.

[1465] The first time I'm hearing that name of a country.

[1466] Yeah, there's a lot of it.

[1467] African countries.

[1468] And he did say that.

[1469] Okay.

[1470] Anyway, but China nor India are in the top 15.

[1471] Okay.

[1472] Hmm.

[1473] And the United States is not on the top 15.

[1474] Mm. Yeah.

[1475] Not in the top 15.

[1476] No. Oh, wow.

[1477] Don't you think a lot of that has to do with like what your genetic history is?

[1478] Like, Pakistan for sure is, was a hurting.

[1479] Well, he said now they're adjusting to this new diet.

[1480] Exactly.

[1481] And then I think compounding it is if your history, was with mostly animals as opposed to crops.

[1482] There's no carbohydrates in animals.

[1483] Like if you're only, you're getting the milk and the meat and the cheese.

[1484] But India has such a high rice -based diet.

[1485] Right.

[1486] So that's weird.

[1487] And China.

[1488] And China.

[1489] So I don't know.

[1490] But they're not on the top 15.

[1491] Anywho, that was that.

[1492] That was it.

[1493] One fact from him and one from me. Obviously.

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] He did a good job.

[1496] He's very factual.

[1497] Anyway, I'll keep you updated on my fan.

[1498] Please do.

[1499] Please, please do.

[1500] And our thanks to the fine people in Bristol for welcoming us.

[1501] It was such a fun, fun experience.

[1502] With Larry Kirby, Huey, Hayes, we had a riot.

[1503] And our thanks to Sears, the Sakehouse.

[1504] What's it called?

[1505] Sparries.

[1506] Sparys.

[1507] Which I love.

[1508] Okay, shout out to Sparys for letting you in with a T -shirt.

[1509] A really big, huge deal.

[1510] They bent over backwards for you.

[1511] Great salad bar.

[1512] Oh, is it delicious?

[1513] They have, and I got to get my hands on it, they have something called old -fashioned blue cheese.

[1514] And when you're looking at it on top, it almost looks like French, right?

[1515] It's like got an orange oil over the top.

[1516] And then when you dig down and pull out, you're getting the white and the blue cheese.

[1517] I couldn't figure out, are they mixing it with French dressing or maybe just vinegar?

[1518] But it's unbelievable.

[1519] I could drink a bucket of it.

[1520] It's so good and so unique.

[1521] That is unique.

[1522] That's very proprietary, novel.

[1523] It is, very novel.

[1524] Yeah, traditional blue cheese.

[1525] If you had been in town.

[1526] Yes.

[1527] Would you have wanted a call from me?

[1528] I'll always drop anything and come help you, or if you're an intruder or you're hurt, you're not alone.

[1529] I was in Nashville.

[1530] I was alone.

[1531] And you were, but you're never alone, except for when I'm in Nashville.

[1532] Yeah.

[1533] But of course, I want you to call me if you need help.

[1534] You call me when you're tired.

[1535] flat at your house and I'm there on a jiffy.

[1536] Yeah, but tire is flat is...

[1537] You're right.

[1538] This is a weird zone.

[1539] Yes.

[1540] Because I don't, I wouldn't ever go to the hospital.

[1541] I know.

[1542] Because you've been through so much medically, you just wouldn't be worried.

[1543] No. You're right.

[1544] You're right.

[1545] You would have to remove your finger.

[1546] Like, then I'd be scared.

[1547] Like, oh my God, I'll be right there.

[1548] Which is ironic because you were, you were worried about my ear and I wasn't.

[1549] Well, because I know the reality that any infection is getting worse.

[1550] It's not getting better.

[1551] Like, I just was looking at it and thinking, like, well, this is the best it's going to be today.

[1552] It's going to be worse tomorrow and then the day after.

[1553] And the longer we leave them in there, this is getting worse and worse and worse.

[1554] Like, if you were holding the blade to your finger and continuing to cut, I would be very concerned.

[1555] I had another wave of spiral of when was the last time I got a tetanus shot.

[1556] Okay, sure.

[1557] You know, these, all those things.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] But anyway, so it's okay.

[1560] It's okay that you wouldn't have been too worried.

[1561] Right.

[1562] You know, I think I badly express a lot of love through worry because that's how it was presented to me. That's how I felt love.

[1563] Wow, what an incredible realization.

[1564] Yeah.

[1565] And that's a real, I'm always going to probably let you down in that way.

[1566] I'm not generally that worried or frazzled by much stuff.

[1567] Yeah.

[1568] It's more, I don't expect other people to, I mean, I do think I like it weirdly when people show worry for me. loved when people are worried.

[1569] Were so worried all the time and they loved me more than anyone's ever loved me or will.

[1570] Yeah.

[1571] There's some weird framing.

[1572] It's muscle memory.

[1573] But it's also what I do to others.

[1574] I worry about people nonstop.

[1575] As your act of love towards them.

[1576] Yeah.

[1577] But I'm trying to not do that.

[1578] I'm working on that in therapy.

[1579] Like that's not how I'd like to.

[1580] Right.

[1581] That makes sense.

[1582] That's my realization that I think I'm showing you.

[1583] I love you by never, ever asking you for help.

[1584] Knowing it is really important.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] Like, oh, I have a weird definition of how you show love for somebody.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] Just never be a drain on them.

[1589] I know.

[1590] It's all warped based on our stuff.

[1591] Your love language is to worry about people and to have them worry about you.

[1592] And give gifts.

[1593] And gifts.

[1594] Gifts and worry are your love languages.

[1595] You have a couple.

[1596] But I'm working on it.

[1597] Yeah.

[1598] I'm impressed.

[1599] I'm proud of you.

[1600] Thanks.

[1601] All right.

[1602] All right.

[1603] I love you.

[1604] I love you too.

[1605] armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1606] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1607] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.