#359 - Alex Grey

[0] The Joe Rogan experience.

[1] Join by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[2] Jesus, Louises.

[3] What are we doing here?

[4] We're sending emails.

[5] The person on, I'll explain who the person on the podcast is today.

[6] One of my favorite artists in the history of the universe.

[7] How about that?

[8] How about, there's a small handful of people that I would have liked to meet more than you.

[9] And so having you on the podcast the first time was a true honor and a treat.

[10] And it's just cool to be in contact with you.

[11] You represent a very positive and a very unusual force in the world of art and in the world of consciousness as well.

[12] You know, your artwork is so moving and so representative of a psychedelic state that it actually has, like, an effect on people.

[13] You know, I think your artwork is probably like some of the most accurate psychedelic artwork I've ever seen.

[14] and I can't tell you how many people I've been with that have seen your artwork or seen one of your pieces for the first time and just went fuck you know like that's that's like the the usual reaction when they see one of your crazier pieces like the one that's like the one that I always think of when I think of you is these three faces they look like Egyptian sort of pharaoh type faces and they're all three one is facing forward and two on the sides and it just seems like a DMT trip it seems like you're tripping when you're watching it.

[15] Right.

[16] Yeah.

[17] It's an attempt to point to the embeddedness that we are in time, the flow of time, and yet that there is always a timeless being that we also are the witness of that being in time.

[18] Why is that so terrifying?

[19] Because we are in time and there's a countdown.

[20] You know, there's, you know, where none of us get out alive, et cetera, et cetera.

[21] Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

[22] Yeah.

[23] Hey, Ray.

[24] Hey, we love you.

[25] Yeah.

[26] Yeah, he just passed.

[27] It's, it really is a weird thing, though, to see it so clearly captured in artwork.

[28] And it's one of the weirdest things that people point to when they point to either ancient religious art or, you know, just various.

[29] things that were it's hard to find evidence of psychedelic use in their art like they didn't, it's hard to find moments where they can't like this is one.

[30] It's hard, there was nothing like this that came out of the old world and it's fascinating to me because if, you know, McKenna was right with this idea of the stoned ape theory and you know that mushrooms probably shaped human culture.

[31] It's like clearly there were long periods of time probably where people weren't getting that.

[32] Yeah, but there was a continual evolution of the ability to express the dimensions of the world and of the imaginal worlds.

[33] And you can see it from cave art, which they now believe that even the Neanderthal may have had early, form of cave art so it wasn't just the cromax you know and the uh but uh we may have had ancestors who were also artists yeah it's the cave art is one of the weird things about ancient man have you seen the werner herzog documentary about the ancient cave art i believe is in france is that where it was yeah what is it called cave of dreams yes yeah yeah um I actually didn't see it, and I've heard all about it, and I really want to, you know, and I haven't yet, so...

[34] Oh, it's one of those things, yeah.

[35] Did you love it?

[36] Yeah, I only got a chance...

[37] I was running out the door when it was on, so I only got a chance to see it for about an hour, but it was fascinating.

[38] Just the idea that they were painting these incredible things, just, what was the 30 ,000 years ago, 40 ,000 years ago, something crazy like that.

[39] This is some of the oldest stuff.

[40] Just does the idea that you're looking at something that someone 40 ,000 years ago?

[41] years ago drew it seems so insane but it also seems like a blip when you really stop and think about 40 ,000 years to go from that to us from from drawing on rocks as being you know your your main form of expression like drawing buffalo to 40 ,000 years later taking pictures of yourself and sending them to people on the other side of the planet so it's not that far 30 ,000 years is like really quick to do that.

[42] But we're still making pictures.

[43] Yeah.

[44] And making pictures is becoming an even more important part of communication.

[45] What do you think that is that feeling that you get when you see a piece of art, when you see something beautiful?

[46] When you see something, even if it's the same feeling for me, it's almost exactly the same thing.

[47] When I see nature, a beautiful seen in nature as I see a beautiful human creation.

[48] So it seems to have no differentiation in my imagination when I see like a beautiful sunset or a beautiful forest you know in the mountains and a lake and that that perfect classic scene or if I see a beautiful painting or a beautiful piece of art it's the same thing it gives you that wow that that's what we're looking for all the time this powerful expression we crave it I think it's actually something that human beings you know either secretly or not so secretly crave in looking at other people and in finding it in their lives.

[49] I kind of think that's almost an aesthetic and spiritual quest in itself.

[50] To find the beauty in the moment in every moment is actually a quite a profound state.

[51] to be in you know yeah it's just such a strange thing to be able to do you know if you looked at it out if you were outside of human culture and you said what are they doing there they're creating beautiful things and they'll look at it and get a positive feeling from it huh how strange like that that image serves no other function other than they express themselves no they can't eat it they can't they don't make it houses out of it they just make it and they look at it and stare at it And they think it's awesome.

[52] Well, you know, in the back of the dollar bill, they have that somewhat Masonic -looking pyramid with the eye in the triangle floating above.

[53] And so it's an unfinished pyramid, and I've heard it interpreted as the individual or the nation is incomplete without guidance by higher vision.

[54] And so the aspiration for a higher vision is what distinguishes maybe a sacred art and a psychedelic art that aims at universal kind of mystical visionary experience and just kind of fantasy art. because I think that with the widespread use of psychedelics so many people have seen these realms that that's why it causes a bit of a when people see it sometimes is because they've seen it inside themselves but maybe not outside themselves yeah it's almost like like a familiar image like even though it's so bizarrely outrageous And you're still like, wow, have I seen this goddamn thing before?

[55] Like, what is it about?

[56] Especially that one with the three heads.

[57] But that one really knocked my socks off.

[58] Yeah.

[59] Yeah.

[60] You're going to make a whole building like that, man?

[61] That's what the Entheon is.

[62] That's too much about.

[63] I can't take that.

[64] Well, it's all the way around.

[65] I know.

[66] 20 -foot heads.

[67] It's going to be the coolest place on the planet Earth.

[68] That is without a judgment.

[69] out going to be the coolest building on the planet earth there's nothing cooler than that you you made an alex gray building and an alison gray building yeah it's uh exactly this is her right sacred language that is uh the uh thing that binds the building that looks straight out of a piece of the wreckage from roswell that's what i expect that writing to come from that looks awesome if human language like that looks like some like something someone would get tattooed on them they wouldn't even know what it meant just looks so cool well you know i thought you could you know if you had like one head here and then it and then it could it could go completely around the body oh someone will do that now that you just suggested it someone will definitely do that or you could make a t -shirt yeah that's maybe that's a good move yeah well are you going to sell T -shirts for me?

[70] Let's see.

[71] People would love to have this t -shirt.

[72] I guarantee you.

[73] Well, you know, there's an Entheon T -shirt that we're going to be working on.

[74] We should explain to people what Entheon is if they didn't listen to the first podcast.

[75] You are built, you have, essentially, you've created your own religion.

[76] You're like, everybody has always said that wouldn't it be amazing if somebody created a religion that actually wasn't based on anything ancient or based on trying to get your money, but based on the true principles of love and the word that you like to use all the time, God, you know, you want to take that word back.

[77] You're trying to take that word back from the Bible bangers.

[78] But it's kind of an amazing thing to do, you know, because I know you and I know what you're about.

[79] You're not doing this for any nefarious reasons.

[80] You're doing it for the perfect reasons.

[81] And that's really rare where someone has a voice and they, choose to just go all in like that.

[82] You've created religion, man. Well, it's an orientation toward the spiritual, and yes, we'll say religion because that's within the embrace of the expanding and evolving spirit of humanity and spirit of humanity.

[83] we have to start thinking as a planetary civilization and the internet has helped us all to form an image of a networked kind of distributed intelligence yeah that goes all around the world yeah that's happened before people even realized it right it's already crept up on people exactly it's it's now kind of the ocean in which we swim but by making note of it we can we notice it yeah and so by the power of that community that connects virtually with each other the Kickstarter campaign for the building of Entheon has been going strongly and just creeping upwards every day and just today like broke the 100 ,000 mark and we're going toward 125 and we've got about nine days left so where how do they get to this if people want to contribute to this Kickstarter well they can go to kickstarter .com uh -huh and go entheon where do they put that in the search i just i just googled out there you go there you go yeah yeah Kickstarter Okay, just Google that.

[84] Google Alex Craig Kickstarter.

[85] And what you're doing is essentially you're building a temple.

[86] Yeah.

[87] You're building a work of art that it really, it's kind of fascinating because if a lot of people who believe that psychedelic drugs are at the heart of almost all religions and psychedelic experience and psychedelic imagery in ancient religious artwork where, you know, there's things that represent mushrooms and shapes that.

[88] are mushrooms, these incredible buildings that have been built for religion.

[89] I mean, if you really stop and think about some of the greatest architectural achievements, it's been like the most beautiful ones have been the ones that were created for religions.

[90] It's like they, you know, in it wanting, in whatever part of what they are that is good, wanting to achieve some higher level, they've done it with their art, with the architecture, You look at some of the ancient Roman architecture that's dedicated to the Catholic Church.

[91] It's staggering stuff.

[92] Outside of the creepiness of the Catholic Church, which is undeniable, and I came from it.

[93] The artwork, the architectural artwork, is just masterful.

[94] It's stunning.

[95] It's like nothing else, you know.

[96] Michelangelo.

[97] Yeah, there you go.

[98] There you go.

[99] You know, the greatest of all geniuses, artistic, you know, architectural, And his paintings and sculptures, it's amazing.

[100] Do you think that any of those guys tripped?

[101] Well, you know, he was a neoplatonist.

[102] And what does that mean?

[103] Well, that means he was an idealist and that he was, he had just become familiar with the, um...

[104] We're looking at the image in the 3D.

[105] That is insane.

[106] Yeah, yeah.

[107] I'm sorry, so keep going.

[108] Yeah, exactly.

[109] So you spun around a little bit and got to see all the heads.

[110] That's cool.

[111] That is amazing.

[112] And so all these works are going to be on view within Anthion.

[113] Dude, you could change people's lives just with these pictures.

[114] They're so trippy.

[115] They make you like that one right there.

[116] That makes you go, okay, what is real and what's not real?

[117] That thing's too freaky.

[118] Yeah.

[119] What is reality?

[120] why is that image so familiar?

[121] Because we are connected with everything, you know.

[122] I mean, look, all the mystic traditions talk about there's only one of us, you know?

[123] Right, all of them, yeah.

[124] And so that's the foundation of the understanding is a sense of oneness.

[125] And so the idea of the networked self and of a planetary sense of humanity is, I think, wearing away the nationhood and nation state ideal toward a hopeful and democratic, but we'll struggle for some time with that.

[126] Yeah, I think it's a possibility.

[127] I have hope for people.

[128] I really do.

[129] And I think the Internet is what gives me the most hope.

[130] Because I think that it's the first time people who have ever had a straight pipe to the world.

[131] Everybody has a straight pipe to everybody else.

[132] And information is settling.

[133] And people are starting to understand.

[134] They are a greater understanding of what constitutes a happy life and how to achieve happiness and how to surround yourself with positive people and how to, you know, how to express yourself in a healthy way and that's all the internet the internet has given people i think a way better understanding of of life itself than any generation has ever had before and so to have this and to to create it with the internet it's kind of uh exactly it's kind of perfect it's beautiful yeah like uh crowdsourcing sacred space that is a uh it could only happen uh today with uh friends.

[135] Well, because of people like you, though, that are doing things like that, that's one of the reasons why I have faith.

[136] It's one of the reasons why I think that I know a lot of people gravitate towards your stuff.

[137] A lot of people gravitate towards your words, and they gravitate towards your artwork.

[138] And I think that gives me hope.

[139] I think that there's people that are trying to put themselves on a good frequency.

[140] And there's people that are not.

[141] There's people that are just, I do not have to be negative.

[142] They'll never let it go.

[143] But they're at that phase of the alchemical uh journey of healing maybe uh you know it's like uh i don't know it's all i think uh there's a spectrum for sure yeah there's a spectrum of fortune luck you know the the luck of the draw of where you were born who you're associated with oh my god your family there's a that's an undeniable luck of the draw you know i think every day i grew up with the people i grew up with you know i got really lucky with my parents.

[144] They were really nice.

[145] That's not the case with everybody, and that's luck.

[146] So, you know, it's almost you can't make, you know, some people are just, they're born into such a massive deficit.

[147] I got a few years on you, I think.

[148] And I recently read about a Schopenhauer essay where he talks about the how almost everyone at a age, looks back on their life, and even events that appeared random during their occurrence appeared to have been faded and took them in a particular direction and that really had become very important for them.

[149] And so it's curious that because, I mean, it was like that with meeting Allison.

[150] That was, it was like that with taking LSD.

[151] It was, you know, their momentous and life -changing kind of occurrences, and they can turn you from a sour and suicidal person to a person that has a love for life and a commitment to trying to leave the most.

[152] the gift that you've been sort of requested to perform, you know, the service you've been asked to perform.

[153] What do you mean by that?

[154] Well, Entheon is a sanctuary of visionary art, and that's always been our aspiration is to provide a, more, on a more permanent basis, of course, that's still an aspiration at this point, but that we did acquire the land of 40 -acre property, and we do have permission now after over a couple of years of negotiation and preparation of site plan and getting a site plan approval from the town.

[155] We now have the permission to build Entheon and it is and the Kickstarter has been a way of connecting with this net of beings that have you know also taken on the imagining of it with us and the financing of it.

[156] Where do you see this going?

[157] Do you see this becoming entheon like once once Entheon is built?

[158] What if a bunch of people want to like move into the property would you would you consider we have a guest house you have a guest house yes we have a guest house to receive them and that is open now for business and we've been hosting numerous people that come and stay there already and we're open on a more weekly basis now and but it's it's just a beautiful time of the year it's and there's wisdom trails you can walk around and there's some art in the house the Cosmic Christ is there.

[159] How far in is the construction process?

[160] Well, we have done reinforcing of the carriage house around which this building is going to be, the heads are going to be clad.

[161] And for folks that are just listening on iTunes, what Alex is, you can see it.

[162] If you go to Alex, Alex Gray .com, if you go to Alex Gray, G -R -E -Y -com and go look at some of the images of, and it's really, it's the weirdest, craziest, coolest -looking building I've ever seen in my life.

[163] And if you do completely build it this way, it's really going to be one of the coolest things on Earth.

[164] I mean, it's a building that's a work of art, and it's a stunning work of art. It really is badass.

[165] It's very interesting, because it makes a statement, and I see it as within a lineage of the development of different kinds of sacred architecture.

[166] and just one other little bud on that tree.

[167] But it's attempting to point to the underlying unity of the quest for wisdom and compassion and all the different religious quests.

[168] And that they share also in common the angel of creative expression, which is the imagination.

[169] and all world religions were born in the creative imagination with the visionary mystical experience.

[170] There was the founding of Islam on the journey of Muhammad to the seventh heaven, and he encounters many visionary kinds of dimensions on the way.

[171] and you know receives his wisdom and you know you have Mary receiving an angel you know you have Moses talking to a burning bush all of these are visionary mystical experiences and they're the foundations of many of the world religions Mara is dispelled in the visionary experience with the Buddha The soldiers, the Buddha turns the arrows into flowers.

[172] These are all kinds of visionary, mystical contact with an infinite intermediate realm between the physical material world and the transcendental world.

[173] And all the really mystical traditions have them.

[174] and we've just kind of lost track of them except now we've recovered them through psychedelics do you think that that was the heart of you feel like that was the heart of all organized religion that originally it was some sort of a psychedelic experience well a mystical experience so it could have been like yoga or kundalini or something like that it can happen on the match and it has for many but for some fasting and there are numerous kinds of austerities and things like that that could have been a natural part of life.

[175] Yes, I haven't been eating for three days, but the water is a little tasting funny.

[176] And lo and behold, there's a vision and an angel appears.

[177] Yeah, people would say, hey, yeah, you're about to die.

[178] You're hallucinating.

[179] Yeah.

[180] Or just eat this.

[181] and you'll be okay soon.

[182] So you can go to the edge and see the other world as well.

[183] And that can be valid as well.

[184] Yeah, people, one of the weird things about psychedelics is people always, even if it was one of the most profound experiences ever and one of the most amazing experiences ever, people will tell you, yeah, but it was just your mind playing tricks on you.

[185] Like it doesn't matter.

[186] And you can go, okay, but it's Whether I really did travel to another dimension and communicate with infinite beings that were made out of love and understanding who told me the secret to life is positive energy and positive.

[187] Even if it was just my imagination, I still experienced it.

[188] I experienced it as if it was real.

[189] So whether it was real or whether it wasn't real, I get the exact same result.

[190] Something happened that was unbelievably incredible.

[191] It took me to some place that was infinitely beautiful.

[192] And then something happened to me. Either that happened or it didn't happen Well, definitely happened It doesn't matter if it was imaginary It doesn't matter if it was only inside my head The whole world comes out of the inside of your head When we're kids I remember when I was a kid They would say like Oh, he's got such an imagination, this one It was talking about kids that were liars You know, that's how people treated the imagination The kids were just fibbers You know because that's imagination to some people You know, some people they didn't think It was something to be encouraged But it's really where everything comes from and that's the weirdest thing about it is the imagination conjures up an idea which becomes a laptop it conjures up an idea which becomes an airplane it all comes from the imagination whether it's artistic whether it's a song whether it's a joke it's the weirdest thing ever and everybody wants to pretend that it's so normal it's so normally just thinking shit up out of the middle of fucking nowhere and creating nuclear power you know what did you do you sat down and you wrote some stuff on a pad and then you figured it out Where's this all coming from?

[193] Where's the idea to even do that coming from?

[194] Where's the idea that some guy wants to be like a fucking bird and put wings on and figure out how to fly?

[195] And he eventually figures it out.

[196] No, we just travel all over the world and we don't think anything of it.

[197] I mean, the imagination is crazy.

[198] The imagination has done some amazing things for human beings in this world.

[199] And yet we still don't give it the credit it deserves.

[200] It's kind of shocking.

[201] Imagination is like the most underrated thing of all time.

[202] And yet it's the foundation of all our advantage.

[203] advancement and evolution.

[204] People are like, what you need is to work hard.

[205] I don't have a fucking imagination sitting there seeing some shit that's not there, all right?

[206] Well, I think that that's the other thing that the visionary experience with psychedelics does, is it convinces people of the existence of the realms.

[207] and if they, you know, suddenly find themselves in a DMT space, you know, it's like very unsettling, perhaps, but then at least you can see that there is a there there, there is an infinite there there, and so this inner consciousness experience that the one self is having.

[208] through us is something I'm just fascinated by.

[209] I'm fascinated by how the mystics get at the one.

[210] Do you think, and this has always been a very strange one amongst the mushroom connoisseurs of the world, some believe that in consuming that life form, which is really closer to animal than it is to plant, right?

[211] Yes.

[212] In consuming that mushroom, what you're doing is that's how it communicates with you.

[213] you that's right and then these visions that you're getting this information that you're getting just almost downloaded to you in a way that you can't understand or even comprehend most of it I was described trying to remember what you're learning on mushrooms like trying to grab fish in a river I can't fucking grab anything I can't hold on to it it's just too crazy I'm seeing too much I'm trying to calm down but I'm seeing too much and it's and then you sort of go oh okay this is where everything comes from this crazy place.

[214] Yeah, the endless imagination and in flowing streams, just like that.

[215] And most of the big ones get away.

[216] Yeah.

[217] And then a few are just life -altering.

[218] And like the thing that really welded Allison and I together, because, you know, it was my first acid trip in her apartment that opened me up to, the world of light and the world of a higher possibility beyond suicide and, you know, nihilism and all that.

[219] Was that how you were approaching life?

[220] Yeah.

[221] Yeah?

[222] We're kind of.

[223] What do you think the cause of that is?

[224] Is that environmental?

[225] Is it behavioral?

[226] Is it pattern that you get into?

[227] Well, let's see.

[228] I was 20, 21 and probably there's something chemical going on.

[229] hormonal changes.

[230] Possibly.

[231] I was wondering whether I was crazy.

[232] And I had a steady diet of kind of nihilist and existentialist authors.

[233] And it reinforced the sense of absurdity because I thought that was what sophisticated artists would want to put into their work was a healthy dose of nihilism and cynicism and sarcasm and all that.

[234] And yet that also felt very wrong.

[235] And so...

[236] It's very competitive.

[237] I don't know.

[238] And so anyway, I was struggling with this kind of polarity kind of situation and prone to extremes and things like that.

[239] So, you know, with a kind of my prayer in the morning was basically, you know, God, if you exist, you know, sure.

[240] yourself because I'm tired of life at 21 right oh my god that's so crazy and so it was kind of like a challenge it was kind of like yeah right show me right and so uh and I was nothing happened at art school I was saying goodbye to my professor on the corner around the corner comes Allison in a VW says hey I'm having a party later tonight hey why don't you come on over and the professor picks me up and says hey i've got some clue in acid uh and uh so hey i was going to kill the professor had acid yeah what a cool professor he was very you don't get those kind of professors anymore was at columbus college of art and design no i was out in uh the museum school in uh boston in boston yeah that's where we met oh wow yeah in uh conceptual art where's that Of course.

[241] Let's see, it's on the Fenway, you know, near Gardner Museum, where the Museum of Fine Arts is.

[242] I grew up in Newton, the suburb.

[243] Yeah.

[244] And I went back recently.

[245] It was really interesting.

[246] We were driving around.

[247] I forgot, like, how historic certain parts of Boston are.

[248] Oh, my God, yeah.

[249] You know, when you look at graveyards, graveyards that are from the 1600s and, you know, really old buildings, like, wow, I forgot.

[250] Like, this is, this is a historic town.

[251] Well, I always felt very much at home in Boston.

[252] Did you hang around with any Irish drunks?

[253] Because that would change your mind with the quickness.

[254] Irish drunks on Coke.

[255] I knew a lot of those.

[256] Italian ones as well.

[257] I don't want to discriminate.

[258] The people that I liked was the kind of philosophical tradition that was there.

[259] I loved Emerson, for instance.

[260] And Thoreau and William James there at Harvard.

[261] And then later Tim Leary and Rob Doss and those guys.

[262] And so there was a tradition of a kind of altered states.

[263] And they did a lot of the experimentation, the original experiments with Walter Panky when he did the Good Friday experiment.

[264] It's amazing city as far as like education goes.

[265] I think it has more colleges per capita than anywhere else in the world or in the country rather.

[266] And I also think you think about it like Harvard and MIT.

[267] both in the same city.

[268] I mean, it's Cambridge, but what are the odds of that?

[269] Cambridge is basically Boston.

[270] It's the same thing.

[271] It's like, wow, what a crazy town for smart people.

[272] Oh, my God.

[273] If they were so smart, why would they be there?

[274] It's so cold.

[275] Well, they hunker in and work hard.

[276] Yeah, that makes you a hard worker.

[277] That's for damn sure.

[278] You grow up with a work ethic, you know?

[279] I grew up.

[280] I learned how to work hard because everywhere around me worked hard.

[281] Look at you.

[282] I got lucky.

[283] No, well, well, for sure trust me there's a lot of luck involved but you know growing up with people in boston like it really definitely when that fucking winter comes man you got to be prepared see i'd love california but there's something about it like i even look at my kids and i'm like you know what it do you good to freeze your ass off every now and then you do you do you good to realize that you got to get in the house because it's cold outside you know to know that that shit's out there i think there's a humility that comes with having to deal with weather and unfortunately as we're saying this podcast a bunch of people died in Oklahoma with a horrible tornado so you know we had to acknowledge how sad that is and how fucking crazy it is that there's a part of the world where the sky becomes an angry machine monster you know spinning wind that picks up semi -trailers and sends them flying through the air that is horrific move out of Oklahoma by the way yeah what's that move out of Oklahoma homo by the way well a lot of them can't man a lot of this is the problem a lot of people are poor you know and they've been there for years and the family's there it's not that easy to just kind of pack up your shit it's good in michigan it's cheaper it's definitely cheaper let's more bullets though yeah maybe around detroit apparently right detroit is like the worst place in the world to be a book they say that detroit is a 47 % illiteracy rate in detroit did you make that up i just made it That's hilarious.

[284] It's crazy if you really stop and think about it.

[285] 47 % illiteracy rate, like, what is going on?

[286] Like, who is, no one's paying attention to anybody.

[287] Like, like, the government should absolutely focus on situations like that.

[288] The idea that we shouldn't intervene in places where it's gotten so out of hand that half the people can't read.

[289] Like, that should be thought of as an epidemic, because all of those people that can't read are going to give birth to children that probably can't read either.

[290] And you have thousands, if not.

[291] millions of people who can't read and then they're going to enter into the world unprepared unprepared to communicate to exchange information to be able to find things out for themselves have to take a bunch of people's words for things because you can't read things i mean there's so much involved in being illiterate the fact that there's like millions of potential crazy people that are going to go through life completely illiterate in 2013 and no one's up in arms about that it's really kind of shocking it is and it's uh something you know each one of us has to focus on in whatever way we can.

[292] Yeah, it's hard to make a person.

[293] It's hard to raise a human being.

[294] It's not an easy thing.

[295] And when we're looking at human beings that are being raised in, like, really terrible conditions, and, I mean, it should be like one of the first things.

[296] Like, the whole world concentrates on.

[297] Before you concentrate on, I mean, it sounds so hippie, but it seems like if you really want to have a happy life, you've got to be doing more good than you are harm.

[298] And there's got to be a way to do that first.

[299] There's got to be a way to say, look, there's X amount of people in the world that are starving.

[300] Let's all globally chip in to try to stop that from happening so that these starving people don't have starving children who never get a chance to get some momentum in life and be comfortable and happy.

[301] It never comes.

[302] It never comes.

[303] To just give them a chance?

[304] Wouldn't that be the most important thing you could ever do?

[305] It would seem.

[306] As a race.

[307] To stop the worst condition.

[308] to stop the worst conditions.

[309] But Sam Kyneson had the best bit about that.

[310] Oh, it was so cruel, but it was so amazing.

[311] He was talking about Ethiopian children.

[312] Oh, they have those commercials.

[313] He's always like, you just fix yourself some dinner.

[314] He's sitting there, and this commercial, and he's like, wouldn't you help him?

[315] Once he said it, he's like, why don't you help him?

[316] You're only five feet away!

[317] He's the guy behind the camera.

[318] He's got a Snickers bar going, not now, not now.

[319] Shut the camera.

[320] It was one of the best bits ever.

[321] It was like, we have deserts in America, too.

[322] We just don't live in them, asshole.

[323] Yeah, like he said that we, you know, I forget how it goes.

[324] Something about, we, yeah, we sent, we came over here with your food and occurred to us that we, you wouldn't need food if you people would move where the food is.

[325] Like, you live in a fucking desert.

[326] And he grabs him when he puts his face in the sands.

[327] Who that is?

[328] That's sand.

[329] You know it's going to be a thousand years from now?

[330] Fucking sand.

[331] It's terrible, mean bit.

[332] So, you're all in, even though Kinsen's dead, long dead.

[333] Still, it's, ooh, it's such a mean bit.

[334] but it was hilarious it was they crossed that line of being fucking mean but so funny you're like oh you motherfucker oh god he was he was a wild motherfucker Sam Kinnison incredible and we were talking about Hicks before the show started you know that I we both thought that like Hicks was like the first truly like psychedelic comedian who had psychedelic ideas that he was putting forth some of them weren't even that funny they were just incredibly profound that it was in the middle of some other shit that was funny was what was so weird about it right right and uh that's how he would drop those meaningful you know mind bombs yeah into your uh psyche so that they kind of melted and uh stayed yeah you know he knew how to uh kind of stain your consciousness with a new perception.

[335] And a lot of his stuff still holds up, you know, especially if you haven't, especially if you haven't heard it before.

[336] It still holds up because what he was saying about the Bush administration, the first Bush administration, by the way, that's, you know, that was when he was, you know, railing against a machine.

[337] It's just like you could just take it and substitute the words and it works today.

[338] It worked with George W. It works with Obama.

[339] I mean, it just, it just, the material works.

[340] Just substitute this guy for that guy, and he was, it's still relevant.

[341] He gave birth to, like, a whole completely different style of comedian.

[342] Like, the style of comedian that came after him was like, they wanted to, like, educate you.

[343] Which is really weird, some of them were idiots.

[344] So there was a, on the wall of the back, the green room at the Dallas, no, the Atlanta Punchline.

[345] There's a big sign that says, don't stop trying to be Hicks.

[346] Oh, quit trying to be Hicks.

[347] Yeah.

[348] Because there were so many guys that were doing that.

[349] There were so many guys.

[350] Interesting.

[351] Wow.

[352] Yeah, it was just so amazing to watch that he like, I mean, Dr. Admiqaswami, he's a physicist, one of those particle guys, had a funny thing to say about people that were sort of faking it.

[353] He was like, he goes, let them.

[354] He goes, I let them use the word quantum.

[355] they don't understand it because maybe it'll have them seek to understand it now and I remember here and I'm like wow that's so profound that's interesting I would have never thought that far ahead like he's like letting people fake it not calling him on it just so they just keep looking into it if they're intrigued then why should he be the stop exactly why should be like listen bitch you know you don't know what you're talking about Hicks made a lot of people aware of psychedelics too there was a lot of people that did not know anything about like heroic doses or any of that shit like Hicks was like the first stand -up comedian to ever talk about things that way the other ones that would talk about mushrooms they were like well we did mushrooms and you know we got all goofy and Bobby thought he was a horse you know that's usually his story it was never like nothing it wasn't like what Hicks was describing it was like what is this guy seeing because how come it's different than everybody else that takes mushrooms?

[356] And I think just it was so interesting and fascinating when he would talk about that it just led a lot of people to explore that.

[357] I think he was another kind of apostle in a kind of nightclub setting.

[358] Yeah, I mean, and digitally still is.

[359] We can still hear his words.

[360] Exactly.

[361] Because we resonate with the authenticity and the rawness that He projected and with a psychedelic perspective that allowed him a kind of brutal honesty.

[362] And yet there was something remarkably magnetic because he was like a laser about the truth, it seemed.

[363] That was what he wanted to be about, even at the, you know, and to reveal.

[364] a kind of underlying darkness was something that he was an expert at.

[365] Yeah, yeah, he really was.

[366] And he had a lot of references that he would use in his material that would make you seek out of the shit.

[367] Like what Terrence McKenna would call a heroic dose, you know?

[368] And I was like, who the fuck is Terrence McKenna?

[369] Then I started reading about Terrence McKenna going, whoa, this guy, holy shit.

[370] I started reading Food of the Gods and I was like, oh, my God.

[371] like, where's this guy been?

[372] You know, I mean, Hicks exposes people or did expose people.

[373] Yes, you did.

[374] And then once you got into the McKenna door, then you were off to the races.

[375] Yeah.

[376] Once you start listing those McKenna MP3s that are available online, you want to talk about something that will just crack your consciousness.

[377] Those McKenna MP3s of some of those lectures that he gave, he just, what a, that guy had a very strange way of thinking.

[378] Yes, I used to think of him as the spokesmankey for the mushroom, you know, that he was kind of plugged in to that, but he and his brother both extraordinary in their intersection with the plant kingdom and the fungal kingdom and Kat McKenna as well who continues the work of botanical dimensions.

[379] The, what is it, was it story they told of La Chouhara where they took too much and Dennis kind of went he went radio silent for a couple of weeks went completely crazy for a while yes that they're you know with like dinner plate size mushrooms and they're eating them all day would whoa would you like to interview dennis I bet he had him on oh you've had him on I bet you did oh he was great with the brothers of the screaming abyss yeah yeah we talked about his book we just talked about psychedelics and we talked very specifically about the actual science behind the possibility of psychedelics creating language and especially, particularly psilocybin.

[380] And he was explaining how, you know, it would make sense that language was created through the use of psilocybin by virtue of the effect that psilocybin has in a very scientific way that I can't recreate.

[381] Interesting.

[382] Yeah, and I was like, oh, I never even heard anybody say it that way before, but that completely makes sense.

[383] Yeah.

[384] Obviously, one theory, and I don't understand really what he's saying.

[385] It just sounds awesome.

[386] You know, I don't know whether or not there's some science to it Other people might disagree with it.

[387] Let's say that it's a commonplace for people to want to express themselves creatively in the wake of a psychedelic experience.

[388] Yeah, I was going to ask you, though, why do you think that is that people would dismiss that?

[389] Why do you think it is that people would ridicule that?

[390] Like someone saying that you actually learn something from a psychedelic experience.

[391] You say that to the average person, and they'll look at you with ridicule.

[392] Like, how did that happen, do you think?

[393] Well, I'd like the listeners to help us think of a word to place that in the same context as homophobia or misogyny or, you know, something like racism, you know.

[394] So, like, why do people who alter their consciousness or who speak of it inspire the hysteria in people that don't take them?

[395] Yeah.

[396] That's a far old Timothy Leary.

[397] Yes, exactly.

[398] That's a great, great line.

[399] Yeah, well, I think that for a lot of folks, they, first of all, they equate drugs with bad.

[400] you know they think of drugs the problem is meth is a drug too and meth wrecks lives that's why yeah drug too cocaine fucks people up but then there's pot which doesn't and then there's mushrooms which does these are you know they're all drugs though it's like well is i mean you could look at some as a food as and it's better maybe to classify some as a sacrament that have been a sacrament uh for longer than they were a quote drug yeah um They were a way to, that people connected with the, with the higher dimensions.

[401] What is that, the term, in Theogen?

[402] What is the actual translation of that?

[403] Entheo, Theo, of course, is God or the divine.

[404] And Entheo would be the divine within.

[405] A bunch of dudes that are really duchy just decided the name their son Theo after hearing that.

[406] That's my boy, the God.

[407] The God, Theo.

[408] fucking awesome so that's what enteogen means yeah so it's from the god it's a a way to discover or a substance that allows you to discover the god within or the divine within the spirit within I don't blame people that are that discriminate against psychedelics if they haven't had psychedelics I think it's just an ignorance thing I think people have a lot of bad ideas and they don't necessarily think it's their responsibility to be right about something that they haven't experienced themselves and that is you know in society it's sort of is it's looked down upon it looks down upon to alter your consciousness like that that if you do it you're probably looking to escape reality that's like the standard take on it yet many of these people would consider themselves to be religious people sure a lot of them so if you look at the foundations of all world religions as we've just gone through it we can see that they were based on this visionary mystical experience which is what we're saying is a value for everyone yeah but Alex that was thousands of years ago we don't want it anymore all right if Jesus came around today no one would believe him there was some dude that was claiming that he was a son of God you giving wisdom to everybody they'd probably put him in Guantanamo Bay there's no way they would let that guy just run around running shit I think there's a lot of people God inspired people are on the loose you know they're just like spores yeah absolutely but there's but the idea of the one a messiah coming back a magical messiah with power to bring that's why from the dead did i did i already say my theory about the the second coming no okay we'd love to hear it you're smiling like a little kid right now okay because i thought i repeat myself endlessly but uh welcome to the podcast that's what we do here Okay.

[409] So the first coming of Christ was the revelation of the connection of, basically, of the divinity of humanity.

[410] Right.

[411] That was the revelation.

[412] And the second coming through a kind of idiosyncratic, tradition that is coming out of the South America.

[413] A lot of ayahuasca churches all over the world are drinking and contacting this higher dimension through the ayahuasca.

[414] And I call, in no demeaning way, I call it the green Jesus because, and green Mary really because it's revealing the divinity of nature and there's nothing more important right now than recognizing the divinity and the sacredness of nature and saving the life web in whatever ways we can somehow turning our our ship around from a self -destructive species you know this is the tight place we're heading into it is but isn't it always been like this isn't this the yin and the yang that makes people human perhaps the push and the pull sometimes we need to rally against an impending doom in order to...

[415] Oh God I know it's a part of being a person we're goofy we don't want to cram for tests we're adolescent species and wildly destructive and we only exist through the grace of the the kind of spirits that are tolerant because we're so creative, I think, that they hope that we will work on this together with the intelligence that's seeding today.

[416] And we've also been born in a super lucky spot.

[417] And as far as the history of humanity, we didn't have to go through the people trying to make it across the west with wagon trains.

[418] And we didn't have to go through any of that.

[419] We're lucky.

[420] We have internet.

[421] perhaps we'll be floating in some astral dimension in the next lifetime.

[422] That's possible too.

[423] Do you feel you have a responsibility from, you know, the fact that you have this voice and you're looked at as this sort of psychedelic visionary guy, do you feel like you have a responsibility to try to get information out, things that you've learned, things that you think possibly could help people, because you obviously have a vision of things, and you obviously have a very well -thought -out view of humanity and of consciousness.

[424] Do you feel that you have an obligation to express these thoughts?

[425] I think that anyone who experiences the deeper realms maybe has a turnabout in their conscience.

[426] It's not just about higher consciousness, but there's a sense that if you're connected with everyone and with everything, then what's your moral responsibility or your ethical response to your interconnectedness?

[427] And so if...

[428] There's a bunch of hippies just took their pants off right now.

[429] I can't take it.

[430] It's too love.

[431] It's too much love, man. Sorry.

[432] Well, I think that there's a natural reason.

[433] resistance to allowing it to be as magnificent as it actually is.

[434] It's also a fear of the unknown, too.

[435] Totally.

[436] People that haven't had it, I think that that's why I don't fault them, the ones who are anti.

[437] You know, a lot of people associate drugs with ruining your life, not with saving your life.

[438] Exactly.

[439] They're capable of both.

[440] Totally.

[441] In my case, it was the other.

[442] It was the saving my life and meeting my wife.

[443] And 39 years later, here we are.

[444] you know whatever seed was born in the saving of a life and you know giving a literal turning point and saying you know can you see me now you know well switch literally was turned on and you became a different person like shedding a cocoon and a you know caterpillar becomes a butterfly or whatever the fuck happens whenever you have a really profound experience but some people don't do that some people do they this is what i say is that a really profound psychedelic experience is like control alt delete for your consciousness where your brain reboots with a fresh operating system and there's only one folder on the desktop and the desktop folder says my old bullshit and you can either open it up and go right back into these predetermined patterns of behavior once the psychedelic experience has faded because it'll be more comfortable that way than sort of reassessing the way you've been living your life or you know you can hit delete try to keep going and do DMT again try to get right back there right when it stops being fresh just reintroduce that mind oh there it is okay I got it okay thanks there's an evolutionary toe hold that you can shine a light toward your future that you're headed toward rather than depend on the effects of past behavior you know wow Yeah, you know what's been really tripping me out is how many people that I know that are starting to have semi, at least, psychedelic experiences from doing yoga.

[445] You know, I've had maybe one time in my life where I did yoga, and I felt like I was high.

[446] I felt like I was high in marijuana.

[447] That's what it felt like.

[448] Yeah.

[449] At the end of it was like, wow, it's just like whatever it is that you have, that switch that you can hit when you do the right poses for the right amount of time with the right amount of energy, there's a weird switch that you hit at the end where I was literally high.

[450] But that's as far as I've ever taken it.

[451] I've never had a hallucination.

[452] I've never actually projected.

[453] I've never...

[454] But I have heard some of the fucking craziest things from people that practice kundalini yoga that if I didn't know them really well and the way they were telling it to me is like so matter -of -factly, I would say, this guy's crazy, he's just making up a bunch of shit except for the one time that I got myself high.

[455] Because I was really high.

[456] I mean, I was high.

[457] I felt great.

[458] I had love in my heart.

[459] I wanted to hug people.

[460] I felt like colors were brighter, sounds were cleaner.

[461] I really felt really high.

[462] And it was just from doing yoga.

[463] And I was like, if that's possible, I've never really continually practiced Kundalini, but the people who really get into pranayamas and all that, they say that there's a wavelength that you can hit where you tap into that, whatever it is, the pineal gland, whatever it is the DMT factory, and just, boom, open up the doorway and punch right through.

[464] And that you can do it through yoga.

[465] Yes, absolutely.

[466] Have you done it through yoga?

[467] Yes, and there are different kinds of, like the idea for Enthion.

[468] Let's be honest with you.

[469] The idea for Entheon really came about, first of all, through Allison and I had a routine of yoga and then meditation.

[470] And during that period, basically instead of like kind of forcing myself.

[471] to imagine something i was saying well god what do you want you know what would you like me to put on uh there and so it showed this the interconnected kind of godhead type thing it's perfect so god's on it okay just do something like that yeah come on here it is okay thank you so you know uh that's on the notch yeah i guess you know i mean You're not on the Natch ever, dude.

[472] Let's be honest.

[473] You're so psychedelic anyway from point A. You're naturally psychedelic.

[474] And then on top of that, all the things you've done, how could you ever pretend that you're ever on the Natch?

[475] You've experienced too much to be on the Natch.

[476] Well, your reference point is now more cosmic than sort of isolated.

[477] Yes.

[478] and you feel more connected with people because, and it must happen to you, you have a community, you have met with many of the people that come out to see you over your tour and things like that.

[479] How has your sense of community evolved in your understanding?

[480] That's a good question.

[481] Well, what I've found is that by doing something like a podcast, having conversations with people like you and, you know, my friends that come on, you're sitting, you're putting out like the kind of conversations that we're having right now.

[482] You're putting these out to people that live in places where they don't know anybody like you.

[483] They can't get a guy like you to sit down for three hours.

[484] I couldn't get you to sit down for three hours and just talk like this unless we're going to do a podcast.

[485] I mean, it probably could, but this is the way to do it, you know, so everybody can be in on it as well.

[486] But that's one of the best things for me about this podcast is that I'm getting to talk to, like, these people like Chris Ryan or Danielle Bolleli or all these interesting people that I get to talk to on a regular basis.

[487] To me, that's a beautiful little situation that I've stumbled into.

[488] And for me, I'm very, I feel very fortunate just to be able to have all these conversations with people.

[489] And then now there's a sense of obligation because I know.

[490] that people enjoy these conversations and I don't want to ever have them think that I'm not going to do it anymore.

[491] We're going to keep just going like it's fun.

[492] I know you enjoy it.

[493] I enjoy it too.

[494] It's totally mutual.

[495] Thanks a lot.

[496] I'm glad you like it.

[497] And I think with that, it's with that attitude, we've created this group of people that listen to the podcast.

[498] And maybe they've never had like really introspective conversations.

[499] with people.

[500] You know, maybe they've never really thought about living in another part of the world or maybe they've never thought about expanding the life that they live outside of this, you know, one realm of consciousness that they've inhabited their whole life, one way of looking at the world, whether it's racist or gluttonous or whether they've just been abusing their body or whether they just been lazy about getting things done.

[501] And when you hear a podcast, where you get a chance to see all these different people's takes on things, you know, from Everlast, the singer, to my friend Joey Diaz, and all these different people's takes on things.

[502] They're all different and dynamic.

[503] And having access to that is like having a bunch of, like, really smart friends around you all the time.

[504] So if you can listen to these podcasts, not everybody's really smart, you know, I'm not saying we're all really smart, saying some of them are really smart.

[505] But you get a chance to have these interesting conversations and they enrich people's consciousness because you might be stuck in a bad spot.

[506] I've been in a bad spot in my life where I didn't have a lot of cool people to talk to.

[507] Couldn't just tune into a podcast, you know.

[508] And so my sense of community is sort of, it's one become a thing of obligation, a happy obligation.

[509] But I definitely think we're obligated to continue to provide content.

[510] And it's, you know, I remember being addicted to radio shows or different bands when I was a kid.

[511] And you want more stuff.

[512] You want constantly more stuff.

[513] So we're, you know, that's a big part of community with me. But it's also one of the most, the happiest things that I've gotten from this podcast is people coming up to me telling me that it changed the way they think about things.

[514] Telling me that now they're happy.

[515] telling me that now they eat healthy, telling me that now they just stopped being an asshole to some to people, that they realized they were really just frustrated and they needed to get their shit together in it.

[516] It's over and over and over again, you know, and that sense of community, I mean, it was completely accidental.

[517] We didn't, like, set out to try to create some sort of a group that sort of tunes into.

[518] We just hope people enjoyed the podcast.

[519] We didn't think it was going to be...

[520] I know.

[521] It's a very interesting thing.

[522] When do a group of supportive listeners become a community?

[523] And it's kind of like we see that today people would like to gather in a lot of different places and to coalesce for a few hours and have a temporary community.

[524] Well, I think we'd like to have a full community, but we don't trust people that not get fucking kooky you know it's like not everybody has their shit together no you can't just walk into my house you might be nuts and that's true and by the way i'm tired i just got on from work i'd really like to just watch tv i don't want you coming over my house so there's a certain boundary that we all have to set up that's why the the church model of the uh you know there's a time when you devote some time to uh this other thing too that's going on that's more of a community thing and that's uh why uh i ask about it because it's something that we've been thinking about a lot.

[525] It's going to happen on its own.

[526] People are going to gravitate.

[527] I told you, all the fringe people from all over the planet are coming to you, my friend.

[528] They're going to zoom in on you, along with some cops probably.

[529] You're going to get some undercover cops that are going to try to pretend to be your friends and try to get deep into the organization and find out you're for real.

[530] And then eventually they'll admit it to you.

[531] You'll give them some acid.

[532] They'll tell you they're a cop.

[533] They'll apologize.

[534] You'll say it's okay.

[535] And you'll give them a home.

[536] We don't give them a home.

[537] anything to anyone or really advocate that much.

[538] We do tell the truth about what happened to us.

[539] And I'm of the belief that the discovery of LSD 70 years ago this year is quite a miraculous occurrence.

[540] And probably of a religious importance.

[541] And probably of a religious implore.

[542] to humanity in the great scheme of things.

[543] And I think 70 years after the crucifixion, basically, it wasn't going so well for the Christians, you know.

[544] And so there's a time, you know, and that's why I was trying to think of, oh, this is kind of like a civil rights issue.

[545] that it is pointing toward a higher freedom of consciousness and special places.

[546] I'm not saying these are not potentially dangerous substances and in the wrong hands of the wrong time and things like that can be a terrible, a weapon even.

[547] So there are definitely things that shouldn't be toyed with.

[548] And some people should stay very clear of them.

[549] They happen to be something that gave us tremendous insight.

[550] And I think many other people as well, not because I said so, but because people naturally have discovered this, it's part of, it's part of contemporary culture, even.

[551] It's just a weird thing that we have.

[552] Once we write things down on paper, we say, this is a law.

[553] Even when it gets to the overwhelming breaking point, and it's probably, it's probably not there with psychedelics I think it is with pot but to when it gets the undeniable breaking point where people just they're like no like 70 % can say they favor legalization like sorry it's just it's not up for grabs the federal government's not really interested and what you're really oh 70 % that's great call us when it's a million percent and we'll still tell you to fuck yourself it's like they just it's the laws don't make any sense and it only points at this point at this, it's time to suppression.

[554] It's the only thing that makes sense.

[555] They're non -lethal, okay?

[556] They're non -lethal, life -changing, and there's a lot of people that give it five stars on Yelp, okay?

[557] It's like, you know, I mean, some people have had some bad times on mushrooms, that's a fact, but if mushrooms had a Yelp page, it would be a motherfucker.

[558] That shit would be filled with stars, and there would be, like, link to, it would be, every one of those reviews would say more at the bottom.

[559] You'd have to click to get an extra paragraph for two.

[560] How many infinite stars are there?

[561] Yeah.

[562] It would be, yeah, if you had less than five stars for mushrooms, you're an asshole.

[563] Give it five stars, stupid.

[564] It was the best thing that ever happened to you.

[565] I mean, the Johns Hopkins University is now starting to public studies saying that just one mushroom trip 20 years ago is a profound effect on personality and improved people's outlook and their level of happiness.

[566] Like, it can make people happier.

[567] That sounds so stupid that it's illegal.

[568] I mean, it literally, how many people are like you?

[569] How many people are like, well, I just needed that reset and with a loving person that I meet, I have a great time.

[570] And then all of a sudden, boom, I'm off to the races on a totally different track.

[571] How many people have to say that before we as a culture go, well, isn't this Alex Gray is like way cooler?

[572] He's like a way better version.

[573] Look, he makes amazing art. He's a nice guy.

[574] He's happy.

[575] He seems fulfilled.

[576] He's trying to create a center of beautiful building where people can come and worship all this stuff.

[577] Like, what is wrong with that?

[578] What's going on here?

[579] Like, what are we trying to protect people from?

[580] It sounds like you're trying to protect people from enlightenment.

[581] That would sound preposterous.

[582] What kind of a benevolent leader would you be if you're trying to protect people from potential enlightenment?

[583] Or are you scared of potential enlightenment yourself?

[584] And knowing that if you do take mushrooms, you can't put on the bulletproof vest and tear gas the kids.

[585] You can't.

[586] You're not going to do it.

[587] You're not going to be the pepper spray cop when the kids are protesting because they're not going to be able to afford.

[588] Yes.

[589] You have a conscience and you want to do...

[590] You can't do that gig anymore.

[591] Yeah.

[592] You've got to get a new gig.

[593] Well, if you do do it, you'll have nightmares.

[594] Yeah, yeah.

[595] Imagine doing mushrooms and then pepper spraying kids?

[596] Oh, my God.

[597] The demonic nightmares that you would have for decades.

[598] It's...

[599] And then the habits that you'd form to avoid confronting them.

[600] Yeah.

[601] Oh, Jesus.

[602] You'd become a...

[603] fucking gambling addict for sure three cigarettes in your mouth at the same time looking a bet on a roach crossing a parking lot you bet on anything there there's whatever to distract yourself from it's a lot of people out there that just got started off in a bad way that's true and very few things can help them except psychedelic experiences are they're one of the best ways to affect those and like we said it doesn't have to be a drug you can get psychedelic experiences through meditation through if you you've you've practiced it enough allegedly he says he's done it you know i've never got there other than getting high like you're saying like doing a yoga and then meditation even not for a long time there are many different approaches to meditation you know from the simplest kind of watching your breath to a uh a kind of uh Allison talks about an aesthetic kind of reception of considering each moment like a, you know, for the beautiful, special, unique thing that it is.

[604] And like we listen to music.

[605] You know, we listen with an ear of appreciation and things like that.

[606] If we had an aesthetic scrutiny and could see the beauty of our cosmic situation, you know, that we evolved to this point where we can talk to each other through a network of intelligence and light.

[607] and share potential connection, community, even, of a new wave of consciousness that's, you know, spread throughout the world.

[608] You know, I feel like these are these podcasts and things like that are the mushroom fruit of a mycelial body of underground intelligences that interweave and then they pop out on these special occasions.

[609] and it's a door to open people up to people like you to new possibilities new ways new ways of thinking and sometimes that's all you need it's just one unique idea that's put in your head by someone that you don't even know just listening to them talk to somebody else and that thought sends you off in a different direction a person's words can be psychedelic there's a lot of different things childbirth can be psychedelic there's a lot of different things that happen to you in this life that are you know We think of psychedelics as being hallucinations, and we think of them as being sort of child's fair.

[610] But, you know, the reality is that there's a lot that comes out of them, that it's very difficult to get any other way.

[611] And the way it comes out so reliably, it's like no one, like mushrooms work for almost everyone on the planet.

[612] Like, no one's immune.

[613] Like, you could be out of focus and not really get there with Kundalini.

[614] really just can never really get your shit and groove and you just have a bad class you take five grams of mushrooms you're off to the moon no matter if you like it or not you're gonna you're gonna get sucked into the wake and hopefully you can let go ride it out and be okay but you might just clench up and it might just go haywire yes and that's the uh that's why you're always choosing a supportive and safe setting if possible and under ideal conditions even those that you don't have to worry about anything about it that you can relax totally and that you're supported by loving friends so that you feel that you can go as deep and as you know as high as possible and with those conditions and your favorite music we like to use a kind of a spiritually uplifting like Bach and stuff like that kind of heavy for some people but I thought you were going to say Christian rock no no I but I like uh you know like uh we used to listen to a musical offering all the time and it's so eerie but it favored the tripping mind with all the fugues and things like that the infinitizing uh is really there in Bach I forgot to tweet people and tell them that we're live yeah what fucked up start over?

[615] No, we don't have to start over.

[616] We've been live for a while.

[617] Hold on.

[618] Live for a while with, sorry.

[619] Sorry folks listening.

[620] So do you ever go back to Columbus, Ohio?

[621] I actually, all my friends went to CCAD, and actually, actually, in college I was actually supposed to go to, but I ended up not going.

[622] But do you ever go back?

[623] Do you ever visit?

[624] I mean, I bet you're like a superhero there now, so.

[625] Well, I think the great return home has not really happened so much, but I do visit my mother and family and things there.

[626] The Heartland, baby.

[627] Yeah.

[628] Well, we'll see.

[629] You know, there's some festival things that are happening in the region, and this year we're going perhaps to another part of the world, but then at some point, I think we'll coordinate.

[630] Now, what part of the Hudson Valley, are you, is it the Hudson Valley that you're putting this?

[631] Yes.

[632] Where is it at?

[633] We're in the town of Wappinger, and Wapinger is a beautiful town that's right on the Hudson River, and it's related to Wapinger's Falls, and Wappinger is the name of the native people who inhabited the region 400 years ago, and they were a wonderful.

[634] kind of series of tribes that went all the way down.

[635] How do you spell Wabinger?

[636] W -A -P -P -I -N -G -E -R.

[637] And not many...

[638] That's a cool name.

[639] It is.

[640] It's amazing.

[641] It's got resonances with many creatures and with a kind of good attitude.

[642] They had an awesome, awesome.

[643] idea about the Hudson River we call it the Hudson now but it used to be the Mohi Kani Took the great flow that goes both ways and that makes sense it's a tidal river and it goes up right to our town right to around there and then it goes back to the ocean it's just amazing what kind of town has it said well it's it's been many things and it's a right now I'd say it's an evolving town and the place that we inhabit it used to be called Deer Hill and Deer Hill was a United Church of Christ congregation and also an interfaith kind of camp so they had a very transdenominational or interfaith kind of approach to spirituality and they had it on the market for like seven years and finally when we found each other we felt like we had a lot in common that we our message was an attempt at a universal message of spirituality and interconnectedness and using nature as a setting for this kind of soul renewing kind of surrounding in a creative environment so we do all kinds of creativity classes there from dancing and and movement and yoga and and meditation things like that too how much of the places are like the outside is the inside is the inside is done it's just the outside needs to be completed with the artwork with Entheon the what we have is a old carriage house, and it's been structurally reinforced, and we've actually put quite a bit into it already in ceiling and shoring it up.

[644] But then we have to take the roof off, and we have to establish new steel foundations in all the corners.

[645] And we're building the heads 16 feet away from the entry to the brick building so what you'll have is a large atrium in front of the brick building when you walk into into Entheon and with this there'll be the reception there'll be you know bathroom and co -caut and things like that but there will also be a fountain head there that will mount against the wall of this old carriage house so you'll see this dramatic kind of 75 by 23 foot high wall of brick and this is this it right here we're looking at it right now yeah it's up here as well uh yeah put it pulled it all the way back Brian for a second the um the the uh the construction looks like pretty in depth like you guys did a lot of a lot of stuff to the place oh yeah it's been and are you living inside that well no we are not there's the brick carriage house And so we're going to, we've been shoring it up.

[646] We've found a nearby construction companies that are specialists in ornamental casting of concrete.

[647] And so this has led to this kind of key to how we're going to actually build the building.

[648] So that's all going to be concrete, those faces?

[649] Yes, but it's a skin, a thin skin of concrete, about an inch thick.

[650] and reinforced with steel and a glass fiber reinforced kind of concrete.

[651] It's a very special kind of permanent.

[652] And then it's going to be sectioned.

[653] And like these heads, there's very repetitive kinds of elements to it.

[654] So they'll be made on some sort of a gigantic mold or something like that, and there'll be several of them?

[655] First, it was, I guess, seen in the imagination.

[656] thank you transcendent visionary source and then I drew it and then I showed it to Ryan Tottle who's an amazing digital sculptor and visionary artist and he works at Disney actually during the day and so he took this into three dimensions and made the actual 3D model that's sized perfectly to the building.

[657] So this will be printed out in sections and we'll have a basically a foam printout that then will be corrected and things like that and then a mold will be taken from that.

[658] Then in that mold we shoot this concrete thin kind of inch thick stuff.

[659] It's got pins on the back that attach to a steel armature and that armature attaches to the building.

[660] wow it's it's it's it's very exciting because it's a it's a real an actual thing it's incredibly ambitious and well you know look people always did sacred buildings you know and it's up to you don't have to justify it to me i think it's awesome i'm just i mean you're like hey they've always done this well i mean this is tiny tiny little expression compared to magnificent temples that are all over the world and things you know i mean they're grand and well there's no pope behind you with horse carriage is filled with gold to pay for no but there's people who are pledging 10 bucks and 30 bucks and i should tell them that they get something from that you have a bunch of different tiers set up oh yeah different things that you get whether it's artwork or there's there's there's i think there's how many different levels do you have of uh possibilities they can oh we have so many we've got like even original artwork that has never been offered before and stuff so uh there's a a PDF with all kinds of artworks and things like that and sketches and uh there's uh these uh these are worth admission for two to anthion that's your coin yeah you're on money awesome kind man what are you doing you're going too far take it i need to take it down and Whatever you do, nobody has guns, okay?

[661] No, no, no, no. No guns ever, right?

[662] You should really make that super strict.

[663] Yeah, yeah.

[664] Because you're going to have a bunch of loons.

[665] They go, you know what, I love you, I love psychedelics, but I also love the Second Amendment.

[666] We're here to rock.

[667] When it comes, it takes our compound.

[668] Well, we try to have, you know, intelligent security just so that things always stay cool.

[669] You know what it would be, though?

[670] It would be the cop that pretended to be one of you guys that would freak out and pull his gun so that the real cops can come in and lock you guys down because you're violent yet guns.

[671] That would be what I would do if I was a cop.

[672] I was trying to shut you hippies down.

[673] Well, we actually have made friends with the local police because we're grateful for their service.

[674] That's a beautiful thing to say, too.

[675] I agree with that as well.

[676] I get shit about that online.

[677] can always tell people that I like cops but I think it's important to have police We do, we absolutely depend on them as a community And there's a lot of good ones You know, and the people don't want to address that There's a lot of cops out there that are nice Despite all the shit they see every day We have friends who are sort of high up in that In the local region And they're just some of the nicest people And most compassionate actually Because they're they go to people who are in trouble mostly.

[678] And then, you know, they're absolutely your bad cops.

[679] That's no doubt about it either.

[680] Sure.

[681] You know, no one's making up for that.

[682] We're just saying there's a need for it and a lot of them are good.

[683] And if you're in a community that's accepting you guys, and did you have a little weird thing where they didn't want you guys to be non -taxed?

[684] Well, we're still working that out.

[685] You know, the...

[686] You don't want to accept you as a regular religion?

[687] Well, it's...

[688] The church status is a, you see, we're building sacred space.

[689] Right.

[690] We hold full moon ceremonies every month.

[691] We hold our church.

[692] That sounds awesome.

[693] I wish I was your neighbor.

[694] And we have neighbors who love to come over and they love to participate.

[695] And we have people from all over the world who come.

[696] And also, this is before Entheon really is there.

[697] Right.

[698] You know, so there's a lot of four years we've been waiting, and so now we've got a loan from a bank that is helping us out, and we have the Kickstarter coming.

[699] You know, we still have like nine days or something like that.

[700] Well, we'll try to pump it up for you.

[701] What kind of town is this?

[702] This is like a town that accepts hippies?

[703] No, I wouldn't say that.

[704] I'd say that there's a healthy mix.

[705] Okay.

[706] And what I find so really astonishing is the religious diversity.

[707] There's a Sikh temple, I believe, there's Hindu temples, there's a Tibetan Buddhist stupa.

[708] All in your town.

[709] All in the town.

[710] How many people are in this town?

[711] Just, you know, it's not a large amount.

[712] Okay, is it one of those vortexes?

[713] They're just draws, like the comedy store?

[714] I think it's a little bit of a vortex of beauty.

[715] And, you know, according to our Native American scholar, Evan Pritchard, he said that our land may have been held sacred by the Wapinger people as well.

[716] So it's always been kind of in this, you know, sacred tradition.

[717] And it was a church before you and, you know, that's fascinating.

[718] I always wondered where are they, how, you know, how you'd pick a site for something like this.

[719] You know, I think it's really cool that you're doing it.

[720] I think it's really fun.

[721] It's exciting.

[722] I know you have good intentions.

[723] So it's...

[724] Yeah, we're hopeful.

[725] And these...

[726] We met some of the neighbors, and we tried to be considerate now about sound and things like that.

[727] And so it's...

[728] How close are you to the neighbors?

[729] You're 40 acres.

[730] Yes.

[731] What sounds do you guys making, you freaks?

[732] Mones.

[733] What are you doing?

[734] Imagine if Alice Gray was actually just a gun nut and not to shoot.

[735] This is all an act.

[736] I love that one of your things on your...

[737] It's music, you know, like sacred music.

[738] We had a recent outdoor concert, but there was also fireworks displayed by the city that, by the town that night.

[739] Oh, so it was perfect.

[740] Oh, so it was perfect.

[741] One of your things on your Kickstarter is awesome.

[742] There's only five left, though, but for $1 ,500, you get a hand -drawn portrait of you or your beloved one.

[743] That's how awesome is that?

[744] That's amazing.

[745] I almost want to do that That's amazing Wow that's so cool Yeah that's a good Kickstarter man You'll get some people definitely from this show And they get to it one more time I feel like we're PBS So I'm gonna just say this one more time I'll just say this one more time You know those gross fucking PBS shows Where every 15 minutes they would chime in And try to get you to donate Like why don't you guys just get some commercials So you don't have to do this It's disgusting Stop interrupting the conversation You freaks So do you feel like you're already starting to have a gravity in this town and people are already starting to be drawn towards this thing that you're creating and putting together with all these ceremonies and...

[746] Well, we did have a recent event this past week and...

[747] Is that what the cops called it?

[748] Well, there was a recent event at the Entheon this new religion that just moved in, recent of...

[749] That's how they would describe a bunch of arrests.

[750] Well, here in L .A., we actually had a safe event where Ott played and Ken Jordan from Crystal Method And OTT He's an amazing I kind of named after Jonathan Ott But Ott in terms of I'm not familiar who's Jonathan Ott Jonathan Ott is a translator of Albert Hoffman's and also was one of the people who came up with the term Entheogen with Dr. Hoffman.

[751] A translator?

[752] A scientific translator?

[753] An author.

[754] You say it was a translator of Hoffman's?

[755] Yes.

[756] What do you mean by a translator?

[757] Well, when my problem child wanted to come out in English, Albert Hoffman wanted someone who was responsible to his word and to his meaning would translate his words for him.

[758] I'm so ignorant.

[759] I wasn't aware that Albert Hoffman didn't speak English.

[760] Yeah, no, he was Swiss.

[761] I figured if he's figuring out of make shit, he's got to be American.

[762] I mean, you know what I'm saying?

[763] He spoke pretty good, English, but not to translate the book.

[764] Wow.

[765] That's fascinating stuff, man. Yeah.

[766] So Ott played, and Jonathan Singer, who's a, I call him a light slinger, and V .J. Extraordinaire, had made a printout of the Entheon kind of all.

[767] altar DJ booth or I guess electronic musician station and so these wonderful musicians played behind something a console that looked a lot like the Entheon thing so it printed it out and Ryan had made this model for the booth and it was like a proof of concept of this is how we're going to print out the building right so it looks really cool wow you're doing raves You've got DJs up there.

[768] This is the best religion of all time.

[769] Everybody's ecstatic.

[770] Oh, yeah.

[771] Oh, yeah, I get it, Visioner.

[772] Yeah, that's a beautiful thing, man. And you're, you know, you're going to have a positive effect on a lot of people who come through those doors.

[773] That's everything you would ever want out of a religion, a center where people can meet, a community, and the ability to push something positive out those doors.

[774] You know, it's a beautiful thing, man. Thank you.

[775] Well, it's really about inspiring.

[776] the creative spirit in in everybody you know and so that's ultimately why it's there and we also see that in a dozen years or or 2020 if possible if we're able to sort of pay back some of our loans and various things over the over time we look to build the actual chapel of sacred mirrors in the meadow if possible and that if we're able to do that that we would move our art out of the antheon and have it as a sanctuary for visionary art from artists from around the world many of whom have already come and done presentations there and actually some of them are in the collection already and stuff so it will be an active center for the promotion of this kind of new art movement, I'd say, that is worldwide and really is a product of this, of seeing into these new dimensions.

[777] I think you need your own podcast, first of all.

[778] Absolutely.

[779] Why not?

[780] A great way to reach people.

[781] Super easy to do.

[782] Set it up.

[783] Go to Libson, you know, get an account.

[784] Not hard.

[785] Really easy to do.

[786] and you could give people just weekly updates on where everything stands and I'm sure a lot of people would get into that and then you know and you could also have your thoughts on current events or your thoughts on you know whatever anything you know you don't have to be married to any particular amount of time do it for 10 minutes if you like do a quick one just to keep everybody posted or do three hours do whatever the hell you want but but having something like that when you're doing something like this which is very you're creating this center for community, you're creating this center for sort of the distribution of psychedelic ideas, you know, and in doing something like that, in creating that kind of a community, and I mean, you're really like putting, you're putting something out there into the world.

[787] You're setting forth a beacon, you know, you're like, there's going to be so many people that are influenced by that.

[788] There's so many people that look at that and go, what is he doing?

[789] What's going on over there?

[790] And they've got, what are they going?

[791] Full moons.

[792] What is the big deal about full moons?

[793] What are these people doing?

[794] Wow, that's pretty.

[795] What is this fucking building?

[796] And then, they get sucked in.

[797] Do you know you're doing that?

[798] Are you going to be comfortable as a cult leader, or how's that?

[799] That's, uh, it's tough.

[800] I think that it's very tricky.

[801] It's about, uh, as I said, holding up a sacred mirror for people.

[802] And, uh, if there's an element of instance.

[803] inspiration in the, for their own creative lives, whatever it is, then we can see that that's a spirituality that works for you, you know, because you have a creative life that has meaning for you.

[804] So you're seeking to inspire other people to be more creative as well.

[805] You're seeking to start the spark.

[806] It's about transformation of the consciousness so that.

[807] that we can regard nature as a sacred ally that we need to learn from and to stop abusing and that we can save what we can of the life web and have a humanity that lives for hundreds of thousands of years instead of snuffs itself out in a stupid, oops, I wrecked planet you know you know like I'm just a teenager you know what do you expect but you know like can we grow up can we mature as a species it's I think it's the most exciting and amazing time because it's like our Kickstarter I have a kind of a wow boy there's some gravity in the timeline you know element and of course we haven't got a united world that that that where we say collectively oh you know what that is too much carbon uh let's do the solar like really like hard you know and uh and so we can start to turn it around you know we're not we're not there yet but people in general i think feel that you know and they start to feel like the oh wow how can we turn it around And so that's why I think that people like Paul Stamitts and other visionary thinkers who understand more about the intricacies and intelligence of, say, the fungus that we have a lot to be hopeful about.

[808] and if we put to use the technology and the intelligence that is already available.

[809] You need to start a farm too.

[810] You need to grow your own food out there.

[811] Exactly.

[812] Why not?

[813] You've got 40 acres, right?

[814] It's a great area.

[815] I'm sure it gets a lot of rain.

[816] Well, we're right next door to Great Field and perhaps an organic farm coming in.

[817] So right now we're focusing on the temple.

[818] But all of those things are part of the, I think, overall.

[819] permaculture plan we're still mapping the land to see uh you know permaculturally what would make sense to develop that's going to be really fascinating when it's done man i really can't wait and i'm really excited about it but this goes to show you the the negative thinking that some people just can't escape some people just can't help being negative no matter what no matter how positive someone else's message is some people can't help being negative somebody talked about your Enthian, Entheon, that's what we're calling.

[820] Entheon, yeah.

[821] They said it was a shrine to your ego.

[822] Because you're creating a big piece of art, a big piece of beautiful art, that's somehow a shrine to your ego.

[823] Isn't that a strange thing that people will accept art, but if that art becomes a building, then something's ego about it.

[824] Like, it can be the most beautiful thing, as long as it's a painting or a sculpture.

[825] But when you make a house out of it, Then it's a shrine.

[826] You know, it's a shrine to your ego.

[827] Like, it can't just be a beautiful piece of art. A sculpture.

[828] Why does someone have to hate like that?

[829] That's got to be the way you were raised.

[830] It's got to be the people that you're around.

[831] There's no other way.

[832] That kind of dushy thinking should be acceptable.

[833] Hey, look, everybody's entitled to their reaction, and I think that it's inevitable.

[834] Yeah, but everybody's also entitled to be mocked for their reaction.

[835] That's an important part of culture.

[836] People need to feel the sting of other people going, bitch, shut up.

[837] What are you talking about?

[838] The guy's making a beautiful building.

[839] What's your problem?

[840] Shrine to his ego.

[841] Negative.

[842] A lot of people need hugs.

[843] That's what it is.

[844] A lot of people didn't get them.

[845] A lot of people need them now.

[846] Well, the very idea is the idea that there is basically one face of God, and it's all of us.

[847] and so there's a there's a multiple and then there's a one on the top of the roof so you got the one and the many in the many and the one and through a consciousness evolution you can reach both I like I like that you say that and it doesn't sound goofy at all do you know what I mean well it's like the plain facts you know yes you're sincere wow but it's one of those concepts where you're you're sincere well it's one of those concepts where you're you know you start talking about the god is the one and the one of the lord and you know and people go what is this crazy fuck going on about your what but but geez you know okay you take it from a scientific perspective you know most are still on the big bang you know that 13 .7 billion years ago there was nothing and then cablam 13 .7 billion years ago we're talking about it right and so that was a lot of evolution that's a lot of development over a long period of time and and uh that's inherently the creative spirit uh brought us here and uh you know consciousness itself is is a miracle that we could understand each other it's fascinating beyond fascinating it does i love that you're optimistic too like you you you have hope for the human race like i think there's no reason to be anything but because despite all the crazy shit that's in the world, a million nuclear weapons that could destroy every single thing.

[848] We haven't done it yet.

[849] I mean, it's kind of amazing.

[850] It's kind of amazing that we've done as little pollution as we actually have.

[851] I mean, that's really quite shocking that we actually toned it down a little bit in Los Angeles.

[852] There's a little bit of like, hey, hey, everybody settled down.

[853] You know, like, apparently the pollution was much worse in Los Angeles, like in the 60s and the 70s.

[854] They said it was horrible because they had those lead cars.

[855] The gas was totally different and they clean that up a lot I mean it still looks like shit it's still crazy brown air but it's better brown air Alex Gray.

[856] Yes it is it is it's even that's a that's a symbol or a message of evolution a little bit of it yeah a little bit and the the consciousness that was born during the 60s the civil rights era the feminism really came on strong the even eco -conteous all of these elements and gay rights, the equality element started to come to the surface, so a sense of conscience about accepting more diversity and living up to our idea about we the people, and who are all the people.

[857] And I think that the re -enfranchisement of people, people like just by saying okay gay marriages that's okay you know so then other nations say okay that's okay you know so suddenly a stigma and a prohibition on a group of people has been lifted and they're re -enfranchised into the society at no harm to the society even benefit to it likewise the cannabis user eventually I believe should be reintegrated into our society and the world, this will show also an evolutionary step, you know, because this is the recognition of the divinity of nature.

[858] I think there's every reason to be optimistic, and although there are some really bad things about the world today.

[859] Financial system is crazy and corrupt, and it's too easy to manipulate, and everybody knows it's rigged, and we still have to use it, and it's still the things that that pays off lobbyists and moves decisions that favor corporations instead of the general public.

[860] We still know that there's a lot wrong with the world.

[861] But we're learning more about humans, about behavior, about just information itself, about technology, about our place in the universe.

[862] We're learning more about the cosmos.

[863] Every day, there's like some new discovery, a new thing, and new this, and new that.

[864] And it's just coming at us like a wave, wave after wave of information.

[865] I don't think it's possible to avoid all that.

[866] Without some gigantic monstrous catastrophe, I think if you just look at the, if you were looking at a graph and you look at the head space of the American person, the average American person from 1960, and look at the head space in 2013, you're dealing with a completely different educated individual.

[867] you're dealing with a level of understanding about the way the world works that's very different from at any other time because almost any question that you've ever had could be answered on your phone within a matter of seconds and although that seems so normal that changed the whole world and that's going on right now I think it snuck up on us so fast we just got so used to watching movies on our phone that we don't even think it's weird that it's just coming through the air into this little thin wafer thing that's made out of glass and metal in your pocket that you get to watch movies flying through the air and you don't even think about it just seems so normal to you and it's all psychedelic it's very much so and that's what I guess Steve Jobs had to be interviewed by the Department of Defense and he had to defend his taking of psychedelics and he said it's yeah in order to get the highest clearance and things.

[868] So as part of his interview, he said that he still believed that it was one of the most important events in his life and that his psychedelic experiences.

[869] And many of the people that they worked with, of course, they wondered how many times they had tripped and things and how far out on.

[870] are you, you know, and was part of the openness to new ways of thinking that it allowed.

[871] Just as you were saying that you, after a psychedelic experience, you have this folder that's called my old bullshit, and then you have this possibility wide open in front of you.

[872] My goodness, a full new possibility there.

[873] you can jump back in the bag that you already know or you can forge a head into a new territory and so that's the evolutionary edge and you're always pushing it and artists and creative people are always pushing it and that's why I say everybody's kind of pushing that edge in some way and is inherently that awareness yeah I think it's it's unavoidable and it's almost that biologically we can't keep up with all the technological evolution although it's not the correct term to use technological evolution they want to use it biologically but just that alone it's almost like our access to information is too great for our feeble minds to process we're still on some old school pentium celeron remember those celerons weren't quite as good as a pentium do yeah I mean we're like on an old machine our machine sucks We have Dunbar's number We can't remember more than 150 people We fuck up Can't remember phone numbers anymore Because you don't have to remember them Because they're on your phone You know, so in that sense It's like we're almost becoming mush It's almost like What the technology is doing Is setting us up It's getting us to a point Where it's just overwhelming us With data that we can't help I know you're having a problem Okay, I'm going to help you out We're going to give you a chip We're going to put this chip in your brain And once you do, boom I mean the government knows where you are at all time but you have instant 120 IQ you're going to be able to see things you never saw before memorize things fairly quickly it's a total brain upgrade it's a little chip with GPS in there and there's a kill switch send a fucking electrocution bolt into your brain if you say anything bad about the government there's there's some movies uh being sort of made with that hypothesis I think, and I always imagine the, you know, the interconnection of everyone being the ability to control the net and the vision.

[874] Do you think at all about the technological singularity?

[875] Do you follow Kurtzweil and all that singularity stuff?

[876] It is fascinating.

[877] We have friends.

[878] Martine and Bina Rothblatt, and Martine and Bina have been working on a robotic facsimile of Bina.

[879] And I'm interviewing her.

[880] Are you?

[881] Yeah.

[882] Oh, that's wonderful.

[883] Yeah, I'm interviewing her for my sci -fi show.

[884] Fabulous.

[885] She's got an art, her lover recreated.

[886] Exactly.

[887] Martin.

[888] Yeah.

[889] Yeah, they're great.

[890] They're wonderful people, and we love them.

[891] And they're married.

[892] You have four children.

[893] Yes.

[894] Yeah, that's amazing.

[895] An artificial person.

[896] As close to it is what we have right now, right?

[897] Well, and so, I mean, they're where the rubber meets the road.

[898] They're really trying to program the robotics so that we can have a close.

[899] closer facsimile.

[900] Can you hang with that?

[901] Can you go blade runner style?

[902] Well, the thing that I found fascinating because I was very resistant to the whole idea.

[903] Falling in love with the robot idea?

[904] Well, just the idea that there will be a time when this will be a problem.

[905] You know, that you can not distinguish between a human being and a robot.

[906] That's coming, don't you think?

[907] I'm not sure.

[908] Perhaps.

[909] You know, I'm naive to think that it isn't.

[910] But I have this feeling just like people have a gaydar or, you know, know, who's Jewish and who's not and things like that.

[911] You know, that having a, that's pretty subtle and intangible things, you know.

[912] to say that all body armor and you know like you know fact of your mechanicalness and inability you know to generate a subtle field even perhaps that's a heartbeat and things I these things are probably part of our unconscious awareness of a human being so I'll see as it develops artificial intelligence and robotics and things.

[913] I'm sure part of it will evolve toward that.

[914] I really feel like we're not giving technology the credit it deserves in that I think it might be alive.

[915] And I know that sounds completely ridiculous because we are so sure that life is like us.

[916] We're so sure that life has cells and has blood and, you know, it either consumes oxygen or it could be plant -based life, but we know what life is, and that's not life.

[917] No, that's just something we created.

[918] But no, because eventually when you turn it on, if it eventually gets to the point where you could reproduce on its own and think for itself and defends itself or knows how to stay alive or has instincts or knows how to reproducing and thinking and altering its environment and then moving forward and creating new energy sources and figuring in how to better use resources if it becomes intelligent life and some crazy asshole says you know and programs in hey defend yourself and reproduce as soon as you can oh you're doomed the human race is done they're going to for sure that's a life form that's going to be a life form and you're it's going to get to the point if this woman is recreating her wife, it's going to get to a point where that's going to be indistinguishable.

[919] There's going to be an artificial you.

[920] It might even be an artificial you that's exactly you.

[921] It's your consciousness in another body.

[922] You might be able to live several lives at once.

[923] Just in case you fuck one of them up, you've got a bunch of other good lives going on simultaneously.

[924] Well, if you do the right Tibetan Buddhist practices, I think you can do that anyway.

[925] You think so?

[926] Yeah.

[927] But the other element of the virtual heaven that I love that Martine and Bina have talked about and the Tarasem movement that they've been putting forward is that we can program as much of the information about.

[928] our lives and about, you know, by filling out basically an elaborate questionnaire.

[929] And this also records our voice, telling stories and things like that and the way that we inflect and things.

[930] So these modulations and things become part of what could be a virtual being.

[931] It doesn't have to be a robot.

[932] It can be, for the virtual heaven, a just a facsimile, a three -year -old.

[933] model that's based on the sort of 3D mapping of the head and maybe the chest or something like that.

[934] So you have a sense of the person and you might ask virtual grandma or grandpa who passed on several decades ago, but the great -grandkids can now access them via this virtual grandma.

[935] uh that can say yes when i was growing up blah blah blah you know and share a story or something now what's wrong with that what's wrong with that there's something crazy about turning grandma on yeah hey grandma how's a great beyond oh so it's just knitting yes there's something fucking creepy about that man i mean maybe we need to let things go maybe we need to realize that you know grandma's the past and whatever great memories we had of her so are you going to close her Facebook account?

[936] You imagine if grandma's Facebook account becomes her?

[937] If you figure out a way.

[938] That's what we're talking about.

[939] That's nuts.

[940] God damn it.

[941] But it's kind of calm, right?

[942] I mean, who fucks off Facebook a thousand years ago?

[943] You know?

[944] Right.

[945] It seems to me that a Blade Runner type scenario is inevitable, though, where they have a life that is artificial but acts so much like us that it itself doesn't even know it's artificial.

[946] Because if you're going to program a robot correctly, to be an artificial person that acts like a person.

[947] You don't tell them when it's artificial.

[948] You want them thinking they're real, right?

[949] Of course.

[950] Like, it would be the Blade Runner scenario.

[951] Yeah.

[952] That was a goddamn brilliant movie.

[953] It was.

[954] It was so amazing.

[955] But, you know, what it might mirror is this whole thing about the Neanderthal and the, and our early relationship.

[956] Like as species, we, you know, for thousands and thousands of years, cohabited the same.

[957] areas and what kind of Neanderthal genocide happened there you know like what what was the shadow of our species you know built on this relationship you think they just naturally are at all oh no I think we definitely killed them do you ever see the people there's a one guy it's a really sketchy theory but he painted Neanderthal as like a gorilla -faced predator and he tried to say that Neanderthal probably man and that's why we drove it to extinction and that we based our image of what Neanderthal looked like based on human skin but we don't really have any skin from Neanderthals we know that they were far stronger than people and we know that they had a much thicker bone structure they were smaller they'd be like five feet tall but they would weigh 200 pounds they were really really incredibly strong yeah well they were more built like orangutan yeah more like a lower primate than like a human or a homo sapient and so this guy see if you can put pull that up Brian it was pretty trippy it's mostly bullshit but it's kind of fun bullshit this guy um it what would you say um neanderthal predator yeah see if you find that and he had like a whole video where they they mapped out uh in his opinion what it would look like in in uh 3d imagery and so he had this really scary looking chimpanzee thing big giant eyes we don't have any eye tissue from the Neanderthals either, and they have a much larger eyeball than humans.

[958] Yeah, their body, they're built fairly differently.

[959] So this guy drew them up like crazy gorilla monsters.

[960] And it's really, I mean, I don't think it's right, but it's kind of cool to look at.

[961] And it's interesting just to conceive of a...

[962] Yeah, there it is.

[963] Wow.

[964] That's how he drew it.

[965] He drew it like they might have been hairy, and they might have been like, but they were really muscular, and he made them look more chimpanzee -like than human -like.

[966] Yeah.

[967] Yeah, he did a whole documentary on it, I think.

[968] It's probably bullshit.

[969] Well, you know, you could genetically imagine yourself into a Sasquatch.

[970] I was going to ask you about it.

[971] I've been hunting for Sasquatch.

[972] Not hunting like trying to hurt him.

[973] I mean, like, look, I should say searching for Sasquatch.

[974] I've been doing this TV show.

[975] We went up to Washington State, and we stayed in the woods out near Mount Rainier.

[976] and it's like a tropical rain.

[977] I mean, not tropical, a rainforest up there.

[978] A real rainforest.

[979] Like, if you've never been up there, you've no idea what that's like.

[980] It's the weirdest environment ever.

[981] You park your car, you take a walk, you'll 100 yards into the woods, and you might as well be on another planet.

[982] You literally enter into a different dimension.

[983] There's a dimension of, there's a dimension of highways and houses, and that's all out there.

[984] But once you go into a rainforest, like, you go a little bit in, and then you're engulfed by this new reality.

[985] And this reality is you see an elk running past you and they disappear in the trees because everything's so thick.

[986] And people start to see Bigfoot.

[987] You know, they start seeing anything, man. You don't know what the fuck is out there.

[988] You think Bigfoot's preposterous until you go to a rainforest, like the Pacific Northwest, and you're walking around and you're like, fuck, maybe, man. Maybe.

[989] Yeah, it's there, like what?

[990] You know, but if you look at the earliest kind of, human animal hybrid cave art, you have something that looks oddly like a saucequatch type thing, you know, because it's a, it's just a marriage of the stag and the human.

[991] And so it's got characteristics of the animal and the human together.

[992] They did a lot of that stuff really early on.

[993] Yes.

[994] Well, look at all the Egyptian art, you know.

[995] What was that?

[996] What do you think that is?

[997] The fusion of the creature, the animal, the therian morph, uh, It's called Therian Morph?

[998] That's a term for it.

[999] Isn't that what those furries call themselves, too?

[1000] They call themselves Therians?

[1001] Hmm, yes.

[1002] I think so.

[1003] I think that that's probably a relationship.

[1004] Not this is anything wrong with being a furry.

[1005] Much love to my mascot friends.

[1006] Right here, John.

[1007] I accidentally stumbled into a furry convention once in Pittsburgh.

[1008] It was, you know what?

[1009] It's going to sound stupid, but I thought it was beautiful.

[1010] I thought it was beautiful that these people, found a place where they could all get together and do this.

[1011] They obviously They like doing it.

[1012] They like doing it.

[1013] And where, you know, if you do that in your neighborhood, people go, what the fuck are you doing, man?

[1014] Why are you dressed up like a giant chipmunk?

[1015] But for whatever reason, I don't know why they like doing it, but it doesn't seem like they're hurting anybody.

[1016] And we were walking, they seemed so happy.

[1017] We're walking down the street and all these furry dudes and gals were laughing and talking together, all with their crazy costumes on.

[1018] Nobody took their shit off.

[1019] And I was like, this is the weirdest thing ever.

[1020] but it looks so fun.

[1021] It's embodying a kind of Dr. Seuss like a zany truth about the world of creatures that we're part of.

[1022] And it's acknowledging that we're part of an almost interdimensional web of creatures.

[1023] And I think that the early stuff, the Egyptian, and all the cave art and things like that really did come out of a place of higher awareness that that was the kind of nature mysticism.

[1024] Well, like a lot of psychedelic drugs have animal ideas embedded in them.

[1025] Absolutely.

[1026] Especially DMT or ayahuasca, there's the jaguars or leopards.

[1027] Jaguars, right?

[1028] Jaguars and snakes and those sort of things.

[1029] I mean, it only kind of makes sense.

[1030] common place absolutely there may be and it could have been many different psychedelic compounds we don't even know about anymore that these people had found and that put them together with these these ideas and of combining animals and human into one form yes yes well it's an easy transfer and the thing that i found refreshing in the Egyptian temples and things was how easy it was to transpose a head and stuff of one creature and another under a human body, and how they were considered the gods.

[1031] Now, if your job is to sacralize the nature field to give a sense of the place that we live in is a gift of a divine creator, then if your gods actually are different animals, or they have animal characteristics, you're more apt to treat the animal with some respect or as being an aspect of that divinity.

[1032] And so the translation of the archetypal symbol of a particular animal spirit and a divine human form is to acknowledge our oneness with that kind of the form.

[1033] field of the animal spirits and it's a very shamanic kind of thing to do and it and it was part of many of the like the Mesopotamian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, the Greek sphinxes and things like that.

[1034] There's a there's this fusion from the very earliest cave art all the way through the great religious kinds of things.

[1035] Angels have wings.

[1036] They're animal and human hybrids.

[1037] That's a really good point that I never even thought of until just now.

[1038] It's still part of the public imagination, you know, and we...

[1039] It's crazy.

[1040] Angels are part bird.

[1041] I just thought there were people with wings, but no, obviously not.

[1042] If they had a bird's head, then you'd be like they're part bird.

[1043] But as long as they have a human's head, you're like, it's not even a bird, man. It's an angel.

[1044] Yeah, of course.

[1045] And we accept it so much because we, the idea of there being a higher world that we ascend to, symbolically it's so transparent that we don't even notice it it's just like there yeah and uh i i think that that archetype is part of uh the human psyche and you can find it in each you know sacred path the the uh the bridging of the the realms that's what hermes was hermes trismogistus you know the occult uh kind of um the foundation How about Ganesh?

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] You know?

[1048] There's so many versions of the combining of a human and an animal and sacred religious artwork.

[1049] It's really fascinating.

[1050] Like the Hindu stuff where there's a man with a lion's head and people that are like octopus arms of six arms.

[1051] Yeah.

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] Oh, a bunch of people trying to make sense of what they're experiencing.

[1054] Soma or whatever it is.

[1055] Exactly.

[1056] What do you think Soma was?

[1057] Well, it's very interesting.

[1058] You know, I think Steve hate Hager thinks it's cannabis.

[1059] Most people are like, it's a sleeping pill, dummy.

[1060] What are you talking about?

[1061] They don't know.

[1062] Like Soma, the sleeping pill, is, they fucked up.

[1063] They should never named it Soma.

[1064] Soma is like it's a sacred psychedelic drug from, was it from the Rig Veda?

[1065] The Rig Veda.

[1066] Six thousand years ago, the earliest human.

[1067] you know, religious text is the songs in the Rig Veda, the Hindu text.

[1068] And some assholes came along and turned that into a sleeping pill.

[1069] Pharmaceutical sleeping pill.

[1070] What a bunch of dicks.

[1071] Wow.

[1072] There you go.

[1073] I mean, that's like really rude.

[1074] You know, that's like Catholics would never take that.

[1075] If you had a sleeping pill that was called the sacrament, the Jesus sacrament, they'd be like, hey, fuck Ed, you can't call it that.

[1076] but people like Soma, yeah, that's in another country and we're America and we're just going to call it Soma because we like the name.

[1077] Soma it is.

[1078] Okay, Soma.

[1079] Yeah.

[1080] But the original Soma was supposed to be an amazing psychedelic, right?

[1081] Exactly.

[1082] And it put the person who imbibed it into a state of connectedness with the divine.

[1083] And Soma was also, it was recognized as the source of many things.

[1084] including, like, clothing and stuff like that.

[1085] But as an artist, why do you think that you were the first person to really encapsulate the tryptamine experience?

[1086] Because all these other people that had these amazing works of art, the only people that came close to capturing the triptamine experience to me were the ancient Egyptians.

[1087] There's a lot of ancient Egyptian stuff like just Tutankhammed's headdress and the gold, the gold, that's very triptamine -like.

[1088] you know and it's one of the only things in um in historical art to me that rings like rings trippy you know there's something about it like you like you can almost like hear music like some kind of triptamine music when you're watching these hieroglyphs and you're seeing these images you're like the symbols like even if you don't understand what they mean when you're looking at these symbols run together your mind starts to try to form patterns and you start to try to think the way these people were thinking and see these incredibly complex geometric shapes that they had turned into buildings buildings like the temple and man this gigantic building where each segment represents different chakras and different energy points in the human body there's texts around each one explaining this part of the human body it's it's fucking insane yes we want to bring that idea to the land of Khosom and have been, you know, the idea of these, the Netaru, the family of gods in Egypt has really made a strong imprint on me when we went over there.

[1089] Allison and I have been back a couple of times.

[1090] What is it called against?

[1091] The Netaru is the family of gods that kind of opened up out of Newt, the Night Sky, who had an affair with Geb, the Earth father.

[1092] So the Night Sky mother held five children in her womb and had to find a special time to release them.

[1093] But the one who was in there with his brothers and sisters decided he didn't.

[1094] want to stick around.

[1095] He was the dark kind of lord, and his name was set.

[1096] And he cut his way out of his mother and outtumbled the rest of the brothers and sisters, including Thoth and Isis and Osiris, and Nephthys, his sister.

[1097] So basically, Isis and Osiris got together, and they were the football hero and the cheerleader, you know, match made in heaven and all that.

[1098] And they were, uh, they were, uh, you know, just like, uh, celebrated and stuff.

[1099] And set was kind of, uh, barren, you know, and, and he was kind of, uh, you know, just probably a little jealous of his brother, maybe.

[1100] And, uh, nepte's, uh, wanted a child.

[1101] And, uh, so, anyway, she, uh, fooled, uh, Oceras into, uh, an affair, uh, perhaps, uh, and Anubis, the dog -headed embalmer of the netherworlds, was the result of that.

[1102] Well, of course, Set was extremely disturbed and decided that he was going to find a way to kill Osiris, which eventually happened, and he cut him up and threw him all over the Nile.

[1103] And so ISIS was extremely distraught, and she went around finding or remember parts of the dismembered god and each place where she found a hand or a foot or something like that a temple was built and so you would you would go down the nile and remember the god and that's that's the idea is just the now i think that it of course it's the goddess that's been lost that's been dismembered the the mother earth and uh so the idea is to uh we have different stations on the land where there'll be a foot there'll be hand and different things like that they'll represent different elements of the dismembered uh mother wow and so we go around to remember uh the uh the mother and to renew ourselves and to renew nature trying to wrap your your mind around egypt mythology and what they were what they meant by that and the origin of that and how it led them to the the society that was able to create those insane structures they're amazing i've haven't been i have the only really crazy place i've been to is chichen itza i went to chichinica once and that was one of those things where you're walking around going how did they what are they doing how did they do this why did they do this yeah this is crazy and no one lived here anymore they just all moved out they made this and then they left somebody left behind this yeah and you and people return there yeah we return there nobody lives there no it'd be funny if some dudes said this is my house now put a door in one of the temples sometimes there are caretakers uh to for these sacred sites and uh so you heard it happened in belize right they just mowed down one of the uh ancient Mayan temples or pyramids that was there.

[1104] It's like a really, really old structure.

[1105] Oh, I didn't do that.

[1106] That's sad.

[1107] They plowed it down because it was on private land just to use it for limestone.

[1108] Good creak.

[1109] Yeah, people are freaking out.

[1110] Like, what the fuck did you do?

[1111] Well, you know, there's there's different feelings in the different societies about these things.

[1112] You know, the Taliban just destroyed a huge Buddhist sculpture, which was a heritage type site that had been there for thousands of years Probably the CIA pretending to be to tell there Look what they did These fucks I didn't say that I didn't mean it CIA Well I don't know at least that was the story That got out and it was sad It's most likely true I mean religious ideologies which gets people to do almost every really fucking crazy thing It's either money or religious ideology you know or ideology in general negative ideology like we were talking about the Boston bombings we're like you can't do that without ideology like no one is able to do something like that without ideology because you have to have something that allows you to think that that's the correct thing to do and ideology of hate yeah and I mean not all ideologies are bad but you don't you don't get really insane acts of faith like that without an ideology Right.

[1113] And insane acts of terrorism either.

[1114] Both things come from, you know, it's not always bad, but it's tricky.

[1115] It's tricky when you just automatically subscribe to the patterns that are in front of you.

[1116] We like to be in, it's like getting to that my old bullshit thing on the desktop.

[1117] We felt really comfortable like going down already tread paths.

[1118] Yes, it's really true.

[1119] And it's sad that the more war.

[1120] widespread understanding of jihad as a holy war within the Muslim community is that it's something that the ego wages.

[1121] You know, we engage with our ego, basically.

[1122] You know, that somehow the soul and the ego is always in a kind of a holy war with each other, that we desire the one true spirit to win out and to have love save the day and all these things to be a hero in life and this is a I think part of why we're called to call to life well the original term was supposed to be like a war against your own vices right personal vices yeah it was somehow to become a better person and and it's a struggle to become a better person.

[1123] In the same way that Israel means a god wrestler, you know, we're struggling with this higher nature and without engaging it somehow, without struggling with it, and to be activated in our creative pursuit of it, it's not real or tangible for us.

[1124] It has to become a real.

[1125] practice.

[1126] That's why I like any kind of art or creativity or any, any form of expression.

[1127] Because that's what we're made of.

[1128] We're made of creative energy.

[1129] Yeah, that's what we're here for.

[1130] We're, you know, what did, uh, was it, um, Marshall McLuhan said that human beings are the sex organs of the machine world.

[1131] That's what we're doing.

[1132] We're just, uh, we're just creating a little computer.

[1133] that's how computers get made people create them that's true that's true it's a new form of intelligence that we're living amongst are you going to download your consciousness into a computer when the time comes we'll have to see what's available you know I love Martin's response because I was saying whoa hey you know it's I don't know about a soul and a robot and stuff like that but she was saying like well Who's to say that a soul, if there were a disembodied spirit, wouldn't like hanging around a robot of itself for a while?

[1134] Or who's to say you're not going to create a zombie in the next dimension?

[1135] The person's going to be born without a soul because you put it in somebody's fucking computer.

[1136] And so then all of a sudden the next dimension is like the dawn of dead, you've got a bunch of zombies running around.

[1137] That could happen.

[1138] Damn it.

[1139] Maybe that's the zombie apocalypse.

[1140] Maybe that's where, yeah.

[1141] When we're seeing the walking dead and this sort of thing, this zombie.

[1142] theme keeps returning over and over and over again.

[1143] That's a warning telling us not to download our consciousness to computer.

[1144] We already have.

[1145] You know, that's what Facebook is.

[1146] That's MySpace, right?

[1147] Yeah, our Tumblr, our Instagram, or Twitter, all of these things are a virtual existence.

[1148] And, you know, wiki and various things like this, they give people maybe a sense of solidity, you know.

[1149] That's why it's weird to go to someone's Twitter page after they're dead Have you ever done that before?

[1150] No, but I'm...

[1151] I have a friend who, a really great guy who expired and every now and then I go to his Facebook page, I'll read his posts and go, you know, I keep reading his post, I'm still getting a little bit of him you know?

[1152] Exactly.

[1153] You watch a video of him, you're getting a little bit of him, you know?

[1154] It's not new stuff.

[1155] I listened to Ray Manzanerick today.

[1156] He died today.

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] But I listened to him.

[1159] He was like 72, right?

[1160] 72, yeah.

[1161] Isn't that crazy?

[1162] the doors he was in the doors and he's 72 it's like wait a minute what's going on how old are we getting Jesus well there's something timeless within that maybe he downloaded himself into a computer right before he kicked off I think into all of our consciousness and and the computers are just the external storage devices what's really the cool thing is that we're connected with all of it just consciousness wise what do you think the next stage of consciousness is going to be do you think it's going to be some sort of an ability to read each other's minds to integrate with each other to exchange information freely through the air like a Wi -Fi signal what do you think it's going to be all of that all that it's coming right can't stop it I think that it's an inevitable um evolutionary development however some of it's going to take training and some of it's going to take orientation toward it and in opening up the ideas of a clairvoyance and extrasensory perception and things like that can be trained in some to be enhanced.

[1163] I have a completely uneducated faith in the fact that people far smarter than me are going to continue to do awesome work.

[1164] I'm convinced that they're going to continue to come out of school and figure new things out even though I'm not placing I'm like wow we're really coming up with some really fast computers I'm not coming up with shit but somewhere I'm convinced they're going to continue to do awesome stuff so whoever you are out there keep it up congratulations and thanks indeed thank you so much well thank you Alex Gray and please go to alexgrey .com g -re -y -com and please participate in the Kickstarter.

[1165] It's your chance to be a part of something really cool, like a beautiful building that's going to have a beautiful cause.

[1166] It's going to have a beautiful movement behind it.

[1167] And you're already doing amazing things.

[1168] And I swear to God, if I lived up there, I'd be visiting you all the time.

[1169] Maybe when this shit hits the fan, I'll move to the Hudson Valley.

[1170] It's cool up there, right?

[1171] Yeah, absolutely.

[1172] It's cold in the winter, though, no?

[1173] Yeah.

[1174] If you ever make it northeast, we'd love to spin it up.

[1175] How far is it from New York City?

[1176] It's a car drive about an hour and a half oh that's nothing oh that's great oh it's also metro north you can take the uh from grant central you can walk from the station there i would love to come check it out and i absolutely want to come once it's all done just to see how crazy it's gonna be oh maybe you can help us kick it off yeah for sure yeah let's do some sort of a party or something yeah but all you crazy hippies out there keep it together don't get too nutty at this party and you know alice great took ass and it changed him so i'm gonna take it all no not at the No. Find a nice peaceful place.

[1177] Find a nice spot in the woods.

[1178] Find a nice spot in the woods.

[1179] So it's Alexgray .com.

[1180] Is there any...

[1181] And on Twitter, your Twitter is Alex Gray Cosm, COSM.

[1182] And so please follow him on Twitter.

[1183] Alex Gray, Cosm.

[1184] Right now you've got 22 ,511.

[1185] Let's see if we could boost that shit up to 22 ,600.

[1186] On PBS again.

[1187] I went PBS again.

[1188] I apologize, ladies and gentlemen.

[1189] Please, but to support this, it's an awesome cause.

[1190] If you got the cash, if you don't, you know, don't do it.

[1191] Thank you, everybody, for tuning in.

[1192] We really appreciate it.

[1193] Thanks, everybody who's been coming out to these shows and all the cool people that I met when I was looking for Bigfoot.

[1194] We had a great fucking time.

[1195] We'll be back on Thursday with the great Graham Hancock.

[1196] He'll be joining us.

[1197] Thanks to Ting for sponsoring our podcast.

[1198] Go to Rogan