Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard XX
[0] Hi.
[1] I missed you.
[2] I missed you so much.
[3] I'm dying to know everything.
[4] Okay, so backstory.
[5] We haven't seen each other in over a week, which is a long time for us, because Dax and I were in India with Bill Gates.
[6] We talked about it on the Goldie Haan episode and we posted on Instagram, but, okay, you know what's rare?
[7] Going to India with Bill Gates.
[8] That is rare.
[9] You're right.
[10] No, what's rare for the armchair, umbrella is our recording schedule normally lends itself to sync being recorded after Monday's fact check, right?
[11] What ends up happening is you and I are talking about something that often I've already talked about, but this is a very fast turnaround for us.
[12] It's like our fastest ever.
[13] And so, in fact, we're going to be talking about it first.
[14] Wow, we are doing breaking news.
[15] We're breaking it.
[16] Wow, it's like we're the junior, or not you, but I'm like an intern at the company, and then suddenly like something happens with the schedule, and I'm the 9 p .m. Yeah, I'm the president.
[17] That's exciting.
[18] So what is the breaking news?
[19] What happened?
[20] I didn't hear that much from you in terms of what was happening.
[21] There were no IG posts, so I'm in the dark.
[22] Well, I would have updated you more, but as we were just talking about as we entered here, the time.
[23] So it's 9 a .m. here.
[24] It is 10 .30 p .m. tomorrow in India.
[25] The time is so off of the U .S. schedules.
[26] So I'm a little wonky, but I'm, I feel okay.
[27] So we were invited to go with Bill on one of his basically, like, check -in trips with the foundation and Gates Ventures.
[28] They have two.
[29] And so they do a ton of work.
[30] India and a ton of work in Africa.
[31] And he goes and checks in and meets with people.
[32] And we were sort of just like flies on the wall with him, just following him around.
[33] We found ourselves in some really crazy situations, some tables where we were just like, how are we here?
[34] How they let us in?
[35] They don't understand why we're here, like all these Indian people.
[36] But we got to do a lot of really amazing.
[37] We went to a revitalized slum.
[38] That was one of my favorite parts because they're doing a whole project there where they're taking these slums and giving land ownership to the people.
[39] They're sort of letting the women from the community run it.
[40] And it's pretty amazing what they've done.
[41] So the whole trip is awesome.
[42] We'll be talking about it forever.
[43] But for me, I had a lot of anxiety going into the trip.
[44] I think more than I let myself feel for multiple reasons, mainly being I've avoided this part of my identity for so long.
[45] And yeah, I was like, what's it going to be like when I'm there?
[46] What am I going to feel?
[47] You know, my grandfather just passed away.
[48] How's that going to impact my feelings toward it?
[49] Whatever.
[50] I just was like, what is it going to be?
[51] And we've talked about this on the fact check.
[52] So I feel comfortable saying it.
[53] But I felt a little anxious because Dax was so excited going in.
[54] And I sort of took that on as, okay, he's so excited.
[55] His expectations are at 100 and nothing can meet an expectation like that.
[56] So then when we get there, he's going to be disappointed.
[57] And then I'm going to feel that.
[58] I'm going to feel defensive over this history of mine and identity and home that I don't even feel connected to it also.
[59] So it's very, it's very confusing.
[60] And so, like, going in, I already knew that, and I was sort of working through that with my therapist and trying to separate his feelings from my feelings.
[61] Anyway, we get there and we land and we're going to this, like, palace, basically, to stay.
[62] But immediately when you drive in, you're passing so much poverty already.
[63] And then you get to this palace.
[64] It's so stark the contrast between the opulence and the poverty.
[65] But immediately all I was thinking about was here in L .A. And how we're like on that track.
[66] It was very startling.
[67] Anyway, all to say, I left feeling very proud that I came from there.
[68] It's so vibrant and the people are so awesome.
[69] It's a very special place.
[70] And I sort of let myself feel that, and I feel proud.
[71] Oh, you're so sorry.
[72] I do.
[73] It was a surprising outcome for me. Like, you know, even like little things where we're at the buffet, and I'm transporting back to me being 12 or something, let's say.
[74] If I was with friends at an Indian restaurant somehow, like we landed there, which I would have never allowed.
[75] but if that happened, I would have acted like I didn't know what anything was or like I didn't know how to pronounce anything or I didn't like I would be very separate from it.
[76] I'm like you.
[77] I don't know.
[78] And so it was weird to be there and like, you know, see all these things and just start embracing like, no, I know.
[79] I know how to say that.
[80] I know what this is.
[81] I know what it's made of.
[82] And it's like I'm 36.
[83] It's crazy how long this is taking.
[84] But I think it was really.
[85] it was really good for me. I mean, I have so many things I want to ask you.
[86] Like, it seems like you are connecting with the incredibly positive things about your identity.
[87] And before, for many, you know, racism probably and xenophobia and sort of the environment that you were raised in, you got the message that there were a lot of negative things and that those negative things you needed to hide or that those negative things somehow were like a threat to your acceptance and connection with others, do you wish that you had had more opportunities to connect with the positive earlier in your life?
[88] Or are you glad it's happening now?
[89] The easy answer is yes, of course.
[90] I think I thought that at some point.
[91] Like, oh, man, if we had come earlier, maybe I would have had this experience earlier.
[92] If I'm being honest, I don't think that's true.
[93] I think it required all things happening at once.
[94] Like for my own personal confidence to be at a place to match that experience because I feel pretty good as a person at this point.
[95] And that took a long time, right?
[96] So I think if I was even in my 20s, I don't know that I would have been able to embrace it in the same way that I did just because I didn't feel worthy of it.
[97] What do you mean worthy of it?
[98] I didn't feel worthy as a person.
[99] and I was still trying to gain worth from everyone around me as opposed to just knowing it.
[100] Okay, so there was two things going on, being close to this culture.
[101] So you feel sort of rejected by others, but then you also felt like it was foreign to you and so you couldn't partake in your own culture.
[102] Is that what you mean?
[103] I didn't feel good enough about myself to be able to see any positives.
[104] Oh, got it, got it.
[105] I got it.
[106] Whereas now I do feel good about myself enough.
[107] I mean, depending on the day, I guess, but enough so that I could really see it.
[108] So I feel like Dax saw a lot of the differences, right?
[109] Which we all do when we go to foreign lands.
[110] The culture is so old and rich.
[111] It's like we think of Europe as old.
[112] India and Africa are like where we all came from.
[113] The history is so.
[114] So old.
[115] And yeah, as we do when we go anywhere, you notice the things that are different.
[116] So he was noticing a ton of differences.
[117] But I was really noticing a lot of sames.
[118] It was kind of different experiences for us in that way.
[119] And I think obviously me, as an Indian woman, going to India, I'm going to have a different experience than anyone else on that trip.
[120] So there was this little girl with her grandma, like walking down the street.
[121] And she was just like being so annoyed our grandma.
[122] I was like, yeah, we're all just so annoyed to our grandmas.
[123] Like, that's what we do, you know?
[124] All I could see was how, like, it's so, you know, so cheesy and so cliche, but, like, we're the same.
[125] Like, people are the same.
[126] They're in different environments.
[127] They have different jobs.
[128] They have different ways of living their lives.
[129] But it's the same, ultimately, which I find very comforting.
[130] Did you ever know someone?
[131] who was South Asian, who also felt the same way that you did, and did you ever talk about it with them?
[132] Were these conversations that you had with your family or not at all?
[133] No, and definitely not anyone, no friends or anything, because, again, that was the whole point.
[134] I was not them.
[135] So I wouldn't have had anything to talk about with them because I had a different experience in them.
[136] And I had this ability to do that when I was young because my mom grew up here.
[137] that I was like, well, I'm different because I'm like some generations away, even though that was a big stretch.
[138] I mean, it must have felt like lonely growing up like that.
[139] Yeah.
[140] I can only see that in retrospect.
[141] Like when I was in it, it was just, it was second nature.
[142] It was just out of survival.
[143] It was just happening.
[144] I don't feel like I was making any deliberate choices necessarily.
[145] So I can only see loneliness in retrospect, because I also wasn't lonely at all.
[146] I had really robust friendships that I still have.
[147] So yes and no, lonely internally, perhaps, because I was negating this big part.
[148] I don't know if, I don't actually think lonely is the word.
[149] I think it's more like there's always a tension.
[150] Like something you need to hide?
[151] Yeah.
[152] That's a lot to carry, especially as a child.
[153] You're different from your white friends, but then you're also different from your family.
[154] Exactly.
[155] And so you're not at home with any group.
[156] And so that's why I'm asking, yeah, were there other friends?
[157] we're like, oh, me too, right?
[158] And I'm sure even you having been able to talk about this with a friend of, you know, again, I remember reading, this is so random, but like I needed to get credits for my last semester in college.
[159] And I took this like high level, really hard Asian American literature class.
[160] And like, but I learned so much in it.
[161] And I read a lot about like, you know, the stories about children hiding their lunches.
[162] I'm sure so many people relate so much to what you're saying.
[163] And it.
[164] Sometimes it was at age 36 that they finally started to shed these things.
[165] Sometimes it's later even earlier, right?
[166] Like, it's all these stories even beyond ethnicity, like people coming out when they're 80, right?
[167] Yeah.
[168] So I think these stories are so beautiful and so important.
[169] But yeah, I'm also like, oh my God, I must have been, like, I wish I could have been your friend.
[170] Yeah.
[171] It seems like you had great friends.
[172] You didn't need me. But I wish, like, I don't know.
[173] But if you were my friend and you were like, so tell me about your Indianness.
[174] I'd have been like, you're not my friend anymore.
[175] Right.
[176] I wouldn't do that.
[177] I don't, I mean, whatever.
[178] I was probably a fucking idiot like every other kid.
[179] But I wonder if a white person, you know, had been around you and had been like, wow, that's so cool.
[180] Oh, wow.
[181] That's so cool.
[182] Never happened.
[183] So, so yes.
[184] You're right.
[185] That might have made a difference, although it's hard for me to, it's no one's fault because I didn't even give anyone the opportunity to do that.
[186] But yeah, you probably would have been like, oh, that's so cool.
[187] And then that would have been nice.
[188] I mean, I aspire to have been that kid, you know, and did you have friends over, or was that something you kind of avoided?
[189] I did, but I much preferred going.
[190] And I would say, like, 90, 10, I would go to people's houses every now and then people would come over, but it was rare.
[191] And also, I could get away with it because it wasn't so prevalent.
[192] Because maybe like if I grew up in a pretty strict Indian household or every dinner was Indian food or the house was decorated in a very specific way, that would have been harder for me. It was almost like I was able to do it because of this weird middle ground because my mom grew up here.
[193] There was so much Americanness already in there that I just like leaned all the way and got, you know, beanbag chair and lava lamps and all the things that are so American.
[194] I'm so specific.
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[244] Was it healing for Dax, your friend, to be so excited, or at this point, do you not need that?
[245] You mean when we got there?
[246] Yeah, just about India in general and getting that kind of, wow, that's awesome that you didn't get as a kid.
[247] That's a good question.
[248] I guess I didn't need it as much, which is also telling and huge.
[249] It was interesting, though, because we've talked about this a lot.
[250] Like when you talked about it with your grandma, when I'm at restaurants and stuff, and my dad is ordering and I'm always like a little like, even though he totally knows what to say, but there's like the second guessing, and then he points, and I feel like I have to speak for him, and it's always this thing.
[251] It was when we were at a restaurant, I just remember specifically having this, like, moment because Dax was trying to order something, and I, then I, like, stepped in and said it.
[252] And then I was like, God, again, it's like, where do you belong?
[253] When I'm here, I'm speaking for my dad, I understand.
[254] this, when I'm there, I understand that.
[255] It's a weird man with no country thing.
[256] But I've never felt like a man with no country because this is my country.
[257] And I've never like second -guester thought twice about it.
[258] But it was pretty profound.
[259] I think I'm really glad.
[260] And that's, none of that has anything to do with what we were doing.
[261] I mean, a little bit, obviously, but had nothing to do with Bill or any of that.
[262] That was just like this personal journey that was sort of happening on the side, which was good.
[263] And did you talk to your parents about it?
[264] Not yet.
[265] I have to call them.
[266] They'll be so happy.
[267] They will be.
[268] It reminds me of also the way that a lot of black people talk about, I mean, I think Trevor Noah talks about this, maybe in his book, of just first I was like, oh, I'm with the white kids, and they embraced me. But then, oh, later the black kids were embracing me. And I was like, oh, I'm black.
[269] Again, as the world also just becomes more and more mixed.
[270] Mixed.
[271] Yeah.
[272] I don't know what the right term is, but, you know, as blended.
[273] I think this is a reality for more and more people.
[274] And being open about it is really brave and really important.
[275] And I feel like this is the beginning of something for you.
[276] I do too.
[277] I don't know what.
[278] But also like I've always said this is not PC at all.
[279] But I've said like I'm not so far.
[280] Like I'm not attracted to Indian men really because it feels so familial, which is true.
[281] But then when I was there, because everyone's Indian, you can't say every single person around you feels like your family.
[282] Like they don't.
[283] Because here, if you're around an Indian person, there's enough shared stuff that it feels familial because they know the things that your family knows, right?
[284] And nobody else does.
[285] But there, every single person knows those things.
[286] So you can't separate it out.
[287] And there's one guy that was so attractive.
[288] You had a crush in India?
[289] A little bit.
[290] I was a little bit.
[291] hyper aware that I, I don't know if I would have felt that here or not.
[292] Hard for me to know, I guess.
[293] I think this will be a great essay in your book.
[294] I've written a little bit about the experience.
[295] I don't want to keep going on it.
[296] Okay, so tell me about your wheat.
[297] Not as interesting.
[298] Really.
[299] I thought a lot about you.
[300] I went to New York.
[301] How long were you there?
[302] I was there for like a week.
[303] Wow.
[304] Yeah?
[305] I just got back on Saturday.
[306] And then I'm going to Seattle later.
[307] I'm, like, moving around.
[308] And then we're going to South by.
[309] Yeah, we are.
[310] So that's exciting.
[311] And we're going to have fun at South by Southwest.
[312] Yeah.
[313] Do you have your spreadsheet of parties?
[314] I am, uh, I know that it's not, it didn't work for us the last time.
[315] So I'm exploring something different.
[316] What are you explaining?
[317] Well, I feel like I might send you like one party invite because I feel like I overwhelmed you and then I didn't get the results I wanted, which is us going to a party.
[318] Um, so I'm being a little bit more chill about it.
[319] Okay, cool.
[320] But will you commit to considering going to a party with me?
[321] Here's the honest truth.
[322] It's a pretty tight sketch for me, but I'll consider it.
[323] Okay.
[324] But, you know, I also want to go to a little shopping, and I want us to go to breakfast.
[325] Yes.
[326] Last time we had an epic breakfast.
[327] We did.
[328] It was, I don't remember the name, but.
[329] Me either.
[330] Shout out.
[331] Shout out some restaurant that we really like.
[332] I think we ate, like, deep -fried cinnamon rolls.
[333] Like, there was just, like, a deconet menu.
[334] Also, on my airplane ride, I watched Anatomy of a Fall because you've been telling me about it.
[335] The only problem is that we landed.
[336] No. Liz.
[337] There was a problem with my screen.
[338] And then I had to go back and then I restart it.
[339] And so then I just was like, I'll read this book.
[340] And then I plowed through this book, which, you know, I'm pretty proud of myself.
[341] And then I was like, okay, now I can watch Anatomy of a Fall.
[342] And I just, I don't know what happens.
[343] You don't know, like, how it ends?
[344] No. Oh, no. That's a huge.
[345] Oh, God.
[346] It's great.
[347] I love it.
[348] You were so right.
[349] And then the kid with the dis, I'm just like, I understand now what you were like, you're going to like this.
[350] Annie are going to hate it.
[351] Oh, no. Is it good that I didn't see the end?
[352] It's really sad.
[353] No, no. I just mean like, because you saw enough of it that the movie's so good.
[354] It's so small in a lot of ways.
[355] It's a small story.
[356] But I told you, I almost turned it off multiple times because it is so stressful.
[357] And what is going on with the justice system?
[358] them.
[359] I know.
[360] And yes, this kid that's getting sort of dragged into it.
[361] That's what I mean about hating it because it's just like, why why?
[362] It's infuriating.
[363] It's infuriating.
[364] It's such a good look at relationships and how what goes on in a relationship can be misconstrued so quickly from the outside.
[365] Right.
[366] Or that one person's version of events like with the therapist, he's just like casting her as this villain and she's like, yeah, any therapist would cast the other person as a villain.
[367] Just it's this constant thought that I have of just like, I think it was a tweet, the worst person that you know is being told that they're enough by their therapist in therapy right now.
[368] Right?
[369] I hate that.
[370] It's psychotic.
[371] There's a story where you clearly, according to yourself and all your friends, were the victim, where their therapist is like, you are the victim.
[372] I know.
[373] That's just, I can't stand that.
[374] Well, me and you talked about this recently at our Galantines, how there are events in our life.
[375] And, you know, that are watershed moments that have impacted from that day forward, the trajectory of our lives, these huge things.
[376] Like, you know, let's take the Dairy Queen, right?
[377] Yeah.
[378] There is no chance in hell.
[379] He even has an iota of memory of that day.
[380] Like, he doesn't know that that happened.
[381] And yet it has impacted my entire life.
[382] And we are that for somebody, probably many, many, many people.
[383] a bad day and we said a thing or did a thing and that person's trajectory like took a left turn and it doesn't even exist in our memory.
[384] Yeah, that's terrifying.
[385] And the positive is also true where there's a person out there.
[386] Like your Uber driver.
[387] My Uber driver.
[388] Which one?
[389] That significantly changed the course of my life in a positive way and they don't know it.
[390] So it's important to remember both.
[391] It works.
[392] But that is terrifying.
[393] that is 100.
[394] Like, we ruined someone's life.
[395] Yeah.
[396] For sure.
[397] Probably more than one person.
[398] How do we write this wrong?
[399] Yeah.
[400] I don't know what to do about it.
[401] If we ruined your life, write it, no, don't.
[402] Well, should people write in?
[403] I mean, I guess that would be a way.
[404] No, I can't.
[405] I don't think I can handle that right now.
[406] I'm on my epiphany.
[407] I'm having my own epiphanies.
[408] I'm on another route right now.
[409] Please don't tell me if I ruined your life.
[410] I'm sorry if I did.
[411] Yeah.
[412] Well, unless you suck.
[413] Yeah.
[414] Like, that's the, it's complex.
[415] Sometimes, again, I have had my life ruined by events that I'm glad happened to, right?
[416] So there are instances where you get called out or you get confronted or challenged in a way.
[417] Well, there's someone in my life currently, I know for certain, who thinks I've really wronged them.
[418] And I know I didn't.
[419] Or, but how can, is it fair to say I know I didn't?
[420] because in this person's reality, I did.
[421] So what's true?
[422] It's wild.
[423] The way that reality is completely created and crafted and subjective.
[424] Like the book I was reading on the plane actually is like, I think it's called How to Change Someone's Mind.
[425] And it's this entire book about how to persuade people and through the context of like trying to make them see.
[426] Wait, is this a super communication book?
[427] What does that mean?
[428] What does that mean?
[429] Is it about super communication?
[430] Like how to be a super communicator?
[431] No, it's not one of those weird, like, influence people and manipulate them.
[432] But it's called how to change...
[433] How to change your mind is Michael Pollan.
[434] It's not that.
[435] How to change someone's mind.
[436] Or how minds change.
[437] David McRane.
[438] Yeah.
[439] It's not a really a self -help thing.
[440] It's more the science of it.
[441] And one of the big things that he sort of talks about is just that even someone who believes something so different.
[442] My go -to is just on abortion rights, which is something that's important.
[443] to me, it's still very difficult for me. But if I come into conversations with people with that perspective that like you're either dumb or evil, no one's going to like engage with me, right?
[444] Or change their mind, which that is actually the point.
[445] So he talks about this like hierarchy where the first step is you have to connect and then you have to communicate and then they change.
[446] Right.
[447] So like you have to come into conversations, not trying to change someone's mind, but actually just trying to connect with them.
[448] Yes.
[449] So we had Charles Duhigg on armchair, and he was amazing.
[450] And he, that's why I was saying super communication, because that's part of what his book was about.
[451] But it's this.
[452] But it's hard.
[453] And especially in your case where it's a personal thing that's happening, not that abortion is just some issue, but obviously all of these things, we have personal connections too.
[454] But it's so hard when you're in it with someone and they just have a completely different story about what happened.
[455] I guess for me, the takeaway is I can't control this person's narrative.
[456] And I don't need to try to change their mind because I feel happy with my decisions.
[457] That's all I can do in this life.
[458] Like, I can't control other people's opinions of my decisions.
[459] You might never get that recognition or acknowledgement.
[460] Oh, I won't.
[461] Yeah.
[462] This person will die with that opinion of me. And that's going to have to be okay.
[463] Right.
[464] Okay, so what parties are you going to go to?
[465] Or what party do you want me to go to?
[466] I need to look up my spreadsheet.
[467] No one has ever had spreadsheet of parties?
[468] I think of parties is very specific.
[469] Do you like parties?
[470] Not really.
[471] I mean, yes, if it's a small party, like a dinner party or a party of people I know, I love parties.
[472] But I don't love a party with a bunch of strangers.
[473] I prefer a party to a dinner party.
[474] You do?
[475] I know.
[476] Maybe I'll grow it.
[477] But there's something so exciting about a party.
[478] You're like, all these people, all these strangers.
[479] Wow.
[480] Yeah, another Pisces Virgo difference.
[481] But you don't like small talk?
[482] No, but that's not what I'm going to do at a party.
[483] What do you do?
[484] I'm there to drink and dance.
[485] There's something super fun about connecting with people in the moment.
[486] Like, yeah, dancing it out, having a moment at the bar, and then never speaking to that person ever again.
[487] I also loved, you know, dinner parties are great too.
[488] But parties, parties, and I also feel like they don't happen anymore.
[489] Like, parties, parties are so rare at our age.
[490] Yeah, they are.
[491] Don't do it anymore.
[492] So have you been to a party since you stopped drinking?
[493] Yes, I have.
[494] And you still enjoy it.
[495] I still enjoy it, which is kind of exciting.
[496] There's always a moment at the beginning where I kind of wish I could have a drink.
[497] And, okay, I will be honest.
[498] Actually, I have something to confess.
[499] Oh, we love confessing.
[500] Did, yeah.
[501] So I have decided.
[502] And by the way, I hope I didn't do the annoying thing where I was like, I'm sober now.
[503] No, you didn't.
[504] Okay, great.
[505] I did stop drinking, but I've decided that I'm still going to drink on dates.
[506] It is too hard.
[507] It is rough out there.
[508] And I did go on a date in New York.
[509] Okay.
[510] And I did have an old passion.
[511] And I thought about you.
[512] Like, remember when we would have old fat?
[513] Like, it was such a winter classic.
[514] It was.
[515] And maybe I'll have one with you.
[516] Maybe I'll make an exception.
[517] I was going to say, because now I'm jealous.
[518] And it doesn't feel fair that these, like, random guys get to have a drink with you.
[519] And I don't just because I'm an old standby.
[520] Okay, well, maybe I can make another exception.
[521] A list of exceptions.
[522] Maybe we can have an old fashioned this winter.
[523] This winter?
[524] That's so long from now.
[525] Aren't we still kind of in a winter?
[526] No, it's, I think, technically, spring?
[527] No, dude.
[528] Yeah, because the groundhog came out.
[529] That's not.
[530] How old they come back?
[531] Yes, I think that is.
[532] March 19th.
[533] On my birthday.
[534] Yeah, Springdady.
[535] And it ends on my birthday, June 20th.
[536] Wow.
[537] So, so sick.
[538] Okay, so March 19th.
[539] So it's still winter.
[540] We have - Wait, your birthday is actually on the 19th.
[541] Yeah.
[542] So, so.
[543] So, oh, my God.
[544] Wow.
[545] Okay, so we have to celebrate spring and Liz all at the same time.
[546] I know it's a lot.
[547] Support for synced comes from Rocket Money.
[548] I had this, another one.
[549] Oh, it happened again.
[550] And I don't, okay, this is a new one.
[551] I don't know if anyone can relate.
[552] I literally don't understand what this charge is for.
[553] Oh.
[554] I know I'm getting charged monthly, $6 .99, and I don't even know how to cancel it because I don't know what it is.
[555] Yes.
[556] Rocket money is so necessary.
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[569] That's rocketmoney .com slash S -Y -N -C.
[570] RocketMoney .com slash sync.
[571] Sink is sponsored by BetterHelp.
[572] We love therapy so much.
[573] We do.
[574] I find it so necessary.
[575] You find it so necessary.
[576] You just came from therapy.
[577] I just came from therapy.
[578] Just rolled right in here.
[579] You literally just did.
[580] I mean, I was thinking about this the other day.
[581] I was talking to my parents about therapy.
[582] And when I was telling them, I was having like the real -time realization of how much I've actually gained who I was when I started.
[583] started therapy versus who I am now, completely different person.
[584] Yes.
[585] Therapists just will make links between things in your life that you would have never thought had any connection.
[586] And I just keep running into people who are really looking for therapists and moving to a new city or starting a new job.
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[595] S -Y -N -C -E -D.
[596] Are you excited about your birthday?
[597] How do you feel?
[598] I don't love 37 as a number.
[599] So if anyone can tell me good things that happen when they were 27, 27.
[600] I feel 27.
[601] That's actually the truth.
[602] Sure.
[603] It's a problem.
[604] I feel like there's an error.
[605] I do have imposter syndrome.
[606] I'm like, it's If people know I'm 37, they're going to expect things from me that I will not be able to deliver on.
[607] And that scares me a little bit.
[608] Birthdays are getting hard.
[609] Like, they didn't used to be hard.
[610] And past 35, I've noticed, they're a little tougher.
[611] Do you find them?
[612] I mean, it's only two.
[613] But, yeah, this sort of like, oh.
[614] Yeah, it hasn't hit me too much.
[615] But I think you're right.
[616] Like, after 35, you start feeling like, ooh, we're getting to 40.
[617] But I don't have a problem with 40.
[618] In fact, okay, I've had some of the opposite feelings sort of recently where sometimes I think, oh my God, I'm only 36.
[619] I have a lot longer to work.
[620] And how am I going to fill all that time?
[621] Like, what am I going to do for that long?
[622] Will I be able to work for that long?
[623] Like, will there be opportunities for that long?
[624] I have that fear of, oh, God, I'm not.
[625] that old and have a lot more time in the workforce.
[626] And I'm worried that the opportunities won't match that time.
[627] That's real.
[628] I mean, that's, I feel that way.
[629] We're in an economy where that's a common feeling and it's a rational feeling.
[630] But I like that framing.
[631] A lot of my friends are older, which helps when I go, they're like, you're literally a baby, you know?
[632] But then I also look at women who are 37 and like, I feel a mismatch.
[633] Do you, and maybe it's, because we don't have kids.
[634] I think that's actually probably the main.
[635] It just keeps you young in a way.
[636] And again, the way that I live my life.
[637] Like, it isn't that different than when I was 27.
[638] Maybe that's, I mean, obviously, so many things are different.
[639] And I feel really young.
[640] Like, I feel like I even look younger than when I was 27, which is funny.
[641] Yeah, you look super young.
[642] Thank you.
[643] Not that there's anything wrong with looking your, like, of course.
[644] But again, the number doesn't make sense.
[645] Like, the number doesn't match.
[646] But I think part of that is just because when you're super, super young, like a teenager.
[647] We just have a warped sense of age and we think something's much older than it is in the grand scheme.
[648] Right.
[649] Yeah, we felt, well, when we were 16, we felt like full -blown adults.
[650] Yes.
[651] Or even 12.
[652] I was like, I am a full human being.
[653] Get out of my way.
[654] Yeah, there's like this inflection point where you feel old up into a point and then at some point it switches and you feel young forever.
[655] Right.
[656] Weird.
[657] Right.
[658] At what age do you think that switches?
[659] I felt young when I was in my early 20s.
[660] Like, like, I remember people were kind of impressed if you do anything.
[661] So I remember feeling, when I first moved to New York, like, I remember feeling young for what I had, like, how people perceived what I'd done.
[662] But even then, like, I don't think you ever feel young.
[663] I didn't feel young when I was 11.
[664] But you're feeling young now, I'm saying, it turns.
[665] Like, I felt old in my 20s.
[666] I felt mature and wise.
[667] And in retrospect, that's all wrong, like completely wrong, but I felt it.
[668] And then now I feel young.
[669] Maybe 35.
[670] It's such a big year.
[671] Do men have that?
[672] No, as we know, raised to 35, ding, ding, ding.
[673] It's a really pivotal year for women as our eggs drop off the face of the earth.
[674] Yeah, we have biological stuff we're dealing with.
[675] But men also have a biological clock, but they don't get told about it.
[676] It's a not the same level of drop -off.
[677] We know 80 -year -old men who are having children.
[678] Yeah, but it has huge complications that can happen.
[679] There can be, but an 80 -year -old woman cannot have it.
[680] I mean, maybe there, I mean, I guess I shouldn't say 100%, maybe there's been one time in history, but it's a different level.
[681] Well, you can ejaculate, but that doesn't mean that you're fertile or that your fertility levels are going to be as high.
[682] Like, I'm shocked sometimes when I'll be like on a nap or something of that.
[683] And this guy's like, I'm 42 and like, don't know if I want kids that.
[684] I'm like, you better fucking figure it out.
[685] Or like freeze your sperm because you're not going to be able to wonder.
[686] Again, I think that men have a lot more of a, like, are given a lot more of a luxury to ponder about it and to not feel pressed when their bodies actually do have a biological clock.
[687] It's not as stark.
[688] Dating men would be easier if they also felt that same kind of pressure.
[689] I think it, like, there's a mismatch a little bit sometimes at our age.
[690] Some guy, think they have more time than they do.
[691] You're talking about sperm health, which is, yeah.
[692] Okay, well, let's do some questions.
[693] Okay.
[694] Should I tell my friend not to marry that guy?
[695] This is from Anastasia.
[696] My friend was in a terrible marriage and got divorced a couple years ago.
[697] All her friends, myself included, knew it wouldn't go well, but we all kept quiet and focused on being supportive of our friend.
[698] The divorce wasn't even filed and she was hanging around this other guy and I told her I hoped she would give herself the time to truly process everything.
[699] She didn't.
[700] Immediately this guy moved in.
[701] Every time I've been around him, he's been angry with her.
[702] She painted her business a color he didn't like.
[703] She made plans with me and didn't include him.
[704] And I got some weird vibes that he's a type of guy who would lay hands on someone, just a vibe without evidence.
[705] I don't want to be around him.
[706] Anyway, they recently got engaged and I want to say something.
[707] Can I?
[708] She does not seem happy and I've known her since we were four years old.
[709] Oh.
[710] This is hard.
[711] It's hard.
[712] I think I would have a conversation and say, hey, before this marriage, I just want to make sure you're really happy.
[713] Because I've known you for so long, and I wonder.
[714] I think it's simple as that.
[715] In this book I was reading, they were like, therapists don't ever tell you, I mean, good therapists, unless you're in a situation, a dangerous situation, I think.
[716] They'll never be like, you shouldn't do that.
[717] But they will ask you the right questions that will make you.
[718] Because if someone else tells you, this.
[719] guy's terrible for you, your immediate reaction is going to be being defensive and doubling down because someone's telling you that you're wrong and no one wants to be wrong, especially for something that's like as important.
[720] Especially if you've already been divorced.
[721] Yeah, she's going to be very defensive around this.
[722] Yeah, she doesn't want to be Ross.
[723] Like you don't want to make mistake like it sucks.
[724] So I actually wouldn't focus on what you think about him or again be negative about him.
[725] Because again, then she will be defensive or again, won't trust you because She loves him, right?
[726] Obviously, they're engaged.
[727] So it means you are on a timeline.
[728] But this might be like a multiple conversation situation.
[729] And yeah, asking her questions.
[730] I mean, again, like, I remember my therapist doing this.
[731] The guy was dating while we were recording Race of 35.
[732] This person was so clear in how they weren't, you know, reciprocating.
[733] Yes.
[734] And weren't like, I mean, they really, I think there was a lot of affection, but they were like, I will be on tour.
[735] I will not be able to be.
[736] They're really.
[737] clear with you.
[738] They were very clear.
[739] And I go to my therapist, like, so I don't know why he's, like, using this.
[740] Like, I came in with my whole analogy of, like, why he was, and she was like, no, no, he's telling you.
[741] Like, all she did was kind of repeat back the situation and say, like, and is this what you want?
[742] Because then again, you go into delusion.
[743] You're like, well, I can make this work and, like, actually be really nice for all these.
[744] And it's like, no, no, let's go through the day to day in 10 years, like in two years.
[745] What does it look like with someone who's upset because you're hanging out with your friend, with someone who criticizes you.
[746] And so, yeah, I would just be curious, not go in with trying to change her mind or trying to argue with her about it, but sort of get her to see what you're seeing.
[747] But I also, for you, if you don't want to be around him, then don't be around him.
[748] But you don't tell her.
[749] You don't have to say, like, hey, if you go through with this, just so you know, I'm not going to come around.
[750] Like, don't do that, but just put up your boundary.
[751] Like, if she does get married, you request, like, hanging out.
[752] one -on -one with her.
[753] And it's so hard.
[754] So many of us have been in this position where we can just see, like, why?
[755] I think this is a separate case.
[756] But I think it's important to remember that what we want out of someone is not necessarily what everyone else wants out of someone.
[757] And we project a lot of our own wants and needs on other people.
[758] And they could be completely different.
[759] 100%.
[760] I've been thinking about this a lot.
[761] I have friends who are in relationships and, like, there's one particular friend with, like, the guy cheated on her.
[762] And, like, I had to be there for her in that moment and not tell her to make the decision that I would make.
[763] And they're still together and she's really happy.
[764] Like, you know what I mean?
[765] Like, yeah.
[766] And if I had inserted myself into that decision, and again, there are things that I can tolerate that she wouldn't tolerate.
[767] Exactly.
[768] Yeah.
[769] So you're right.
[770] It's also important to not, yeah, even though you do want to make decisions for your friends and you care about them so much.
[771] I mean, I relate so much.
[772] Yeah.
[773] Okay.
[774] Let's see.
[775] Oh.
[776] Okay.
[777] This is from Nick.
[778] Yes.
[779] How to respond to female friends who regularly make broad negative generalizations about men as a man. I often find myself in the company of women who regularly make sweeping negative statements about men as a whole.
[780] It is usually joking such as kill all men type stuff, but it also regularly dips into uncomfortable generalizations about how men think and act, often in the realm of, men being dumb or sex obsessed or other generally very patronizing things.
[781] These friends have largely had significant traumatic interactions with men.
[782] I myself have had my fair share of traumatic sexual experiences with women, so I understand their thought process on a very personal level, though it does not make these things any less hurtful.
[783] I am, quote, one of the good ones to them, which I feel is problematic on its own.
[784] I've tried to bring up these feelings before, but get shut down as I, quote, don't understand the danger they feel all the time around men.
[785] I just want to know how or if I should continue to bring up how this makes me feel as someone who happens to be male.
[786] Day one, listener of Sinked and lover of race to 35.
[787] Thank you so much for making this podcast in such an honest and unashamed way.
[788] It has opened up such an amazing view into how someone with experiences so opposite of my own may interact with the world.
[789] Thank you for listening, Nick.
[790] We do really, really appreciate it.
[791] Man, I'm mixed on this.
[792] Oh, because I get it.
[793] It must be so annoying as a man, like to just be lumped in with a bunch of negative stereotypes, just like any stereotype on earth no one wants to be lumped into.
[794] So I do really get that.
[795] But also, I think there's a reality that men can't understand a lot of the dangers.
[796] And I totally respect that you have had bad interactions with women.
[797] And it's not that men are bad and women are good.
[798] Like, I think that's often how it's portrayed.
[799] And that is not.
[800] true.
[801] Women are just as complicated, do as crazy of stuff.
[802] So it shouldn't be positioned like that.
[803] But it's true that women walk around with a very specific level of danger around men that men don't have, just in a physical sense.
[804] Yeah.
[805] But kill all men.
[806] Yeah, that's rough.
[807] Right.
[808] I think that that's a, if we're to give them completely the benefit of the down and say, that's a valid emotion to feel when you're dealing with, you know, a traumatic experience.
[809] or again, you're in the thick of it with a guy or several guys and it all adds up.
[810] But, like, know your audience.
[811] And maybe, yeah, saying that to a guy who's actually not also.
[812] Like, kill all men.
[813] Like, no, because you're friends with someone who's great.
[814] You have an example right here.
[815] Exactly.
[816] So say that to a girlfriend.
[817] There's a time and a place for those kinds of comments.
[818] And it's also not helpful to indulge in those comments.
[819] Like, it doesn't help me when I have an upsetting experience to be like, well, all men are, it's like, that's not true.
[820] It's feeding my delusion to feel like I'm entitled to say that, and then people are enabling me to believe that.
[821] And it's a self -fulfilling prophecy.
[822] The more you think it, the more you see it.
[823] But for him, the only thing I would say that you could say is just like, hey, is there any of we can not talk about this?
[824] It bums me out.
[825] And don't get in a debate with them, because that's where it will get tough.
[826] And they'll say, like, well, and you don't understand.
[827] And don't engage in the debate here.
[828] You just speak vulnerably with your feelings, which is like this type of conversation bums me out.
[829] Can we pivot and talk about something else?
[830] I think that's the really only way to handle it.
[831] And you said you've tried so these women aren't the ones that aren't going to like probably adjust.
[832] Do you want to be friends?
[833] I mean, I think this applies to so many things.
[834] You know, I have people in my life that can be very negative and be extremely pessimistic about what's happening in the world.
[835] And then I'll come out of a conversation with them and I'm like, oh, why do I feel bad about myself, about the world?
[836] And it's something to know within yourself.
[837] Do you want to spend more time or invest more time in these friendships?
[838] Because it seems like that's not what you want to spend your time doing and it's contagious.
[839] It's important to think of who you're surrounding yourself with.
[840] That's very true.
[841] Okay.
[842] Well, that's it for today because we're on a short timeline.
[843] But we have a lot of great questions next week.
[844] And I'm so happy to be back with you.
[845] I missed you so much.
[846] Maybe when we come back, we'll have a party we'll be talking about.
[847] Maybe.
[848] Maybe.
[849] I'm not committing.
[850] But at least a breakfast will be talking about.
[851] Yes.
[852] And I love you.
[853] I love you too.