Ashley Walters (Top Boy): "Me & Kano Didn't Have The Greatest Time!". The Unheard TRUTH About Top Boy, Career Rejection & Personal Grief!

[0] I was obsessed with the fact that I was going to die young.

[1] I wanted to hurt people the way I was hurt.

[2] Some of the things that go through my head scare me. That's the world!

[3] Artist, I got 21 seconds to go.

[4] Act up, here we go.

[5] Top boys are in the building.

[6] Growing up had a lot of trauma and it made me angry with the world.

[7] My dad was in prison most of my childhood.

[8] The local bad boys, they became dads to me and I started to follow in their footsteps.

[9] I'm still getting a prize for those years now But once I get in front of a camera It's not that Ashley anymore Top Boy!

[10] Top Boy!

[11] Top Boy!

[12] The greatest show that's ever come out of the UK Life Timor!

[13] It's crazy, you know, it changed my life But filming the last season, me and Kane, we don't have the greatest time.

[14] People don't understand we go hard for that show We go hard to make sure characters are being represented in the way they should be And we faced a lot of resistance.

[15] How?

[16] The truth is, 2005 you had rekindled your relationship with your father yeah and then he died man I never realized it would have hurt me that much took me to some dark places making decisions that we're going to come back to haunt me you know um man I want to break down now just talking about it Ashley I've got an interesting observation that I wanted to start with I the way you speak, the way you've been chatting to me before we started rolling, it almost reminds me of someone who has had a bit of therapy or has done some work on understanding the unobvious subconscious forces that are at play in their life and what you've had to delve into.

[17] Because I think, as is often the case in this podcast, I think our like earliest context shapes us in a profound way and it's something that's quite hard to unshape ourselves with undo as we become adults.

[18] So what is that early context that you've um you've had to reflect on to understand yourself?

[19] Man so where do I start?

[20] Um so much.

[21] I mean look I I I I first of all I've had a lot of therapy right so I've been in a lot of situations where I've been counselled, you know, I've sought help because I needed it, right?

[22] Had a lot of trauma, I guess that has kind of stuck with me over my life.

[23] And I think one of the biggest things for me was my dad, really.

[24] That's what I stand back to, like growing up, just not having a father figure around.

[25] and the places that push me to.

[26] And don't get me wrong, like a lot of people have gone through that and come out of the other side and not been like me, but I dealt with it in like a really crazy sort of way.

[27] You know, it made me angry.

[28] Made me angry with the world.

[29] So all throughout my, you know, my soul solid years and my early kind of acting years.

[30] years.

[31] My attitude towards life and towards other people was very, I mean, it was wrong, you know, it was quite negative.

[32] And I wanted to hurt people the way I was hurt.

[33] And sometimes I did, you know, sometimes I did.

[34] It came out in a lot of different ways.

[35] Some of the people I cared about, some of the people who were close to me and some people I didn't know, random people, but got me into a lot of trouble with the police.

[36] Yeah, you know, I just didn't care about myself as a teen growing up so and look I had some amazing supportive people around me like my mum is amazing I've got an amazing family but that one niggling thing of kind of being slightly lost about what a man is um not feeling like I fit in rooms with other men you know in groups of people and stuff like that just like having this niggling doubt about myself all the time um made me quite a difficult person to be around growing up and trying to explore that.

[37] So yeah, when I, and I didn't know it was, that's why at the time.

[38] I didn't know it had anything to do with, you know, not having my dad around.

[39] Like my dad, when he was around, you know, he was in prison most of my childhood growing up, that was like France.

[40] He used to say he was in France.

[41] So to me and my younger brothers, like anytime, you know, my mom would be like he's in France or someone would say he's in France or whatever.

[42] That was like code for prison.

[43] Didn't know at a time.

[44] It was something I learned later on.

[45] But he was in France a lot of times.

[46] So, you know what I mean?

[47] It was like, so there was a few phone conversations and stuff like that with him, but never had him there.

[48] And then when he would turn up, he would just turn up randomly at my house and stuff.

[49] And one thing I always remember is that I always wanted to go with him, right?

[50] Because he was a superhero to me. You know, I didn't care as much as the other adults cared about the fact that he was, you know, in and out of my life and what damage that was doing to me and stuff like that.

[51] I was just like, I want to see my dad.

[52] Everyone else has got a dad.

[53] Why haven't I got a dad?

[54] You know, I want to know my dad.

[55] So my mom would, I got to give my mom a lot of credit because she would never badmouth him in front of me, even though I know that she wanted to.

[56] And she would always give me the option.

[57] So anytime he would come, she was like, would you like to go?

[58] And I would obviously go.

[59] And then I'd come back crying because something had happened, you know, like one of the, you know, my dad drank a lot.

[60] I remember one time he took me to a party.

[61] It was like a family party.

[62] He was like after a christening or something like that.

[63] And he was, he got so drunk and they threw him out.

[64] You know, he had a fight with someone in the party and he was, he got thrown out.

[65] And I remember having to like, you know, I'm maybe like 10, 11, tops having to carry him home literally down the street like carry this guy home um to to my grants to his mums you know being chased by the police in the car you know in pushing my head down in the back i just remember that image of him going like look keep your head down and stuff like that and he was getting chased by police and i laugh about it now more an uneasy laugh this happening this is not me being like proud of any of this it's just those were my images those are my images and memories of like being with my dad but without fail my mom said you want to go back and go back you know i wanted a dad he weren't the best dad you know but i wanted someone there and kind of eventually when i realized when i got a bit older and i was kind of angry with him for how he treated me it became i'm going to find other figures other dad figures other role models in my community so the, you know, the local bad boys, the local dealers they became dads to me, you know, and I started to follow in their footsteps a bit, do you know what I mean?

[66] And adopt the same attitude, adopt the same swagger.

[67] You know, I think even got joining Soul Solid was never about music for me in the beginning.

[68] It was about belonging.

[69] It was about, like, it was the first time, you know, I was part of the gang and there was a lot of older men in there in that group that looked after me, you know, took care of me and seemingly at the time loved me. Do you know what I'm saying?

[70] As much as, you know, as far as I was concerned.

[71] So I spent a lot of years bouncing around like that.

[72] The funny thing is about it is I was having success throughout this, you know, throughout this process, like making films and successful TV shows and music.

[73] and stuff like that.

[74] So I guess I had talent, you know, I had a gift that was shining through, but learning how to be a man, I didn't get, I didn't know.

[75] I thought that was aggression.

[76] I thought that was, don't take no shit from anyone, do you know what I mean?

[77] Don't cry, don't take no shit, be hard, you know, try and stand up for yourself.

[78] but emotionally I was incapable of the other stuff that really builds a real picture of what a man is.

[79] Where does the anger come from in that situation of like abandonment, needing a father, the father not meeting the expectation that you want him to be?

[80] I often hear it with kids, like you're desperate for your father to like be a father and you repeatedly give them another chance to be that person and they continue to let you down over and over and over again.

[81] And it's funny because I've sat here with like child psychologists and Gabel Matte and all of these geniuses that study children at your young age and it's funny how the one thing that Gabel said to me who's maybe like the number one child psychologist in the world said to me he was like, children in any context think everything's about them, they're narcissists.

[82] So if the parents were arguing, they interpret that as something about them and if they, so even in the context of what you've described, your father's behaviour there, he almost, he's got his own problem clearly, but you interpret it as meaning something about you.

[83] Of course, yeah.

[84] And do you understand, have you been able to understand what the interpretation was, how you interpreted that situation?

[85] I think not in that much detail, but I guess, you know, surface -wise, that I wasn't good enough.

[86] You know, I can only say that because of how I've treated myself.

[87] Because I never, I generally, generally I never think I'm good enough to be doing anything that I'm doing you know I always feel like there's always like a sly little bit of me and it's like they're going to catch me out next week like I'm I shouldn't have this opportunity you know I always I'm always going to make the most of it I'm always going to prove to people that I'm good enough to be here but I'm always there's always that niggling doubt of what the other person's thinking of about me, you know, and that's something that I'm still working on today.

[88] I'm still working on the whole process of understanding, like, you know, someone else's opinion of me is none of my business, do you know what I'm saying?

[89] Like, and just accepting that, you know, going into a room and if I see people talking in the corner wondering, are they talking about me, you know, having those, like, that sort of thought process is tough but I think it stems from um rejection I think it stems from you know being abandoned slightly I mean I hate to use that word but because you know my mom my mom will be upset about me using that terminology but because she never understood and bless her you know my mom's a very intelligent woman but one thing she couldn't understand emotionally was the fact that I still wanted him, you know, and even, you know, up until he died and after he died, there was loads of moments where I was broken.

[90] And she would, she was just like, what is wrong with you?

[91] Like, why?

[92] You know, you didn't really know him like that.

[93] Like, why you, you know, she just didn't get that.

[94] Yeah, I just wanted him to be proud.

[95] You know, if anything, you know, I'd just love him to see me now.

[96] I'd love him to understand like, who I've become what I've achieved.

[97] I think in the beginning that was more about that was like a stick your finger up sort of thing like even without you.

[98] I did great, you know.

[99] But the reality is like the last encounter I had with him was the most beautiful encounter ever.

[100] You know, maybe that I've ever had with any person that I love.

[101] Like, and he said some things to me that really have started.

[102] with me you know really i changed my life going forward but you know he didn't he didn't care he was like and i mean he cared about me but he didn't care about the stuff that i was doing he was like that's meaningless it's like you know all of that can be taken away at any time you know i'm glad you've got talent i'm glad you feel fulfilled in like what you're trying to achieve in life with your life goals and that but i wouldn't care if you did that or you didn't it'd still be my son and i'd still love you as much as i do and he was always concerned about my fight my fight for perfection because i spend a lot of time like trying to dig deep to make things perfect right and it's only now i know that nothing nothing can be perfect there's no such thing you know and i think i eventually understood like you know it's not always going to go my way right but i have to be slightly more willing to to adapt to accept that um and when i have been more willing to accept it um good things have happened you know i've got to be open to it he passed away in 2005 right yeah yeah and by that time you had sort of rekindled your relationship to some degree i when i was reading through i think it's so solid um page 12 you referred to him at that time as a waste of space which i guess was a reflection of how you were feeling about him at that time yeah i mean it's so funny you bring that book up because i don't even i won't even read that book really i don't think i've ever read it if i'm honest with you and i mean there's not that much to read if i'm I'm honest, it's a lot of pictures.

[103] But yeah, probably that's how.

[104] I mean, that's how I felt for a lot of the time.

[105] I think those last two weeks when I was in, I was shooting Get Richard, I try and I was in Canada.

[106] He forced his way out to come and see me because, you know, he knew how I felt about him and he knew he only had weeks left to live.

[107] And he was like, look, I have to come and see you.

[108] And he came and he lived with me. for those like two weeks and I was already in the process of like so I had this thing back then that I was gonna die when I was like 33.

[109] I'd been something that I said to my mom from a young age and she was like randomly one day at like six seven you was like you're gonna die at 33 or whatever and she was like I don't know where you got that from but you've been obsessed with that and as an adult I was obsessed with the fact that I was going to die young I wasn't going to survive past that age.

[110] So I got someone to start filming me every day.

[111] I got a friend to just start documenting my daily life on camera.

[112] And when I went to Canada to shoot, I took the camera with me and just said, look, I'll get some footage myself when you're not, while you're not here.

[113] my dad came and i just decided to turn the camera on so i did so every night you know while he was there he was like you know go and get me some weed this guy had lung cancer um could hardly breathe he was like going to be some weed and you know i'd get him some drink and stuff like that we'll be sitting there for hours like for hours and hours and i just put the camera down on the table and that and just film him and just ask him the most random questions just about life like you know where was you where was you at this time where was you that time whatever and the guy was like for context when I was in prison I was in prison in like 2001 right and he wrote to me a few times and it was the first time I understood that my dad was illy like he couldn't read or write so these letters were so like it's just fucked up man it was just like I had no idea that he had that issue and I read these letters I was like wow so that gave me another level to my hate for him it was like now you're dumb as well like yeah do you know what I mean it was like yeah I really don't like I don't know so it was evil but it was just another excuse for me not to like him right so cut back to being in Canada he I sat down with him and filmed them and found out that he was one of the most intelligent people I know just from being streetwise, just from life experience.

[114] Do you get what I'm saying?

[115] Like it actually burnt me because I didn't want him to know anything.

[116] I didn't want him to have anything to really offer me in the end when I delved deeper into who he was as a person.

[117] But all the things I was going through with women, with life, do you know what I mean?

[118] It was like he had a wealth of knowledge.

[119] that he could speak to me about.

[120] He couldn't write it down, couldn't really articulate it in the greatest way, but just listening to his kind of anecdotal sort of stories and whatever, I got what I needed to get from it.

[121] And I filmed him kind of going through it.

[122] But there was also like a huge fear as well.

[123] You know, I realized in that moment that he had genuine excuses for being the person he was.

[124] I mean, he grew up.

[125] Didn't have the greatest upbringing, you know.

[126] he was in care he was slightly neglected by his own parents you know and you know he was the bad kid of the bunch and he just kind of got pushed out and that kind of led to his life and things happened etc etc but i understood it from his point of view when i heard him talk about and i was like actually okay i can see why you would be the person that you are and actually maybe you did me a favor by not being there too much because who would i be you know would i be the person i am today and But then, you know, after realizing I love this guy and I'm enjoying spending time with him and we were like good friends and we went to clubs together out there.

[127] This guy's like, you know, thin, like way for thin, like on death's doorstep and he was making the effort to come out with me and, you know, rave and do all this stuff.

[128] and um but at night at bedtime i's laid in my bed awake every night just staring at the scene and thinking he's gonna die here because he was just coughing all through the night man it was like you know like he was coughing up his lungs like i was like well i was praying that it didn't happen you know there um and then he died man he'd like you know left left literally got off the plane they rushed him to hospital because he was going on the plane rush him to hospital he died um whilst i was filming and you know it wasn't the best way that i found out um i was filming at the time i was doing a scene with 50 and it was like a really emotional scene outside and location and the vibe just changed on set like so you know in between takes everyone stopped talking it was quiet it was like this and like the producers were just like looking at me and I was like nah I knew do you know what I mean something had happened I knew something was wrong and they was like look we're going to take a break just go and call home you need to call home actually so went to my trailer I called my partner at the time and she was like sorry man I mean he's gone so it's tough it was tough moment this tough moment yeah and I was I was broken I was broken I was broke me and I'm crazy but the one thing I remember from that moment is I went to my trailer I broke down some of the actors came like Troy Bryant she came in and she was just like just hugged me and I was just crying and stuff and 50 came in and was he won't remember this and I know it wasn't malice or any bad intentions but he was like I'm sorry to hear about your dad and they just started talking about a scene to someone you know when someone's like sorry to hear about your dad man anyway um we're whatever and i was like you know talking to him after it was like he's been through some some shit you know that's made him really like um but i hadn't been through anything like that at that point that was my first real kind of close encounter with death like and having someone that meant so much to me and pass away but my first instinct was to work to continue working I continued working I flew back for the funeral for literally one day did the funeral and then I left I went back to work I just ploughed through and I didn't grieve and I haven't you haven't I don't think I have you know I don't I don't know what you call it because even like now I want to break down now just talking about it I don't know it's just like 2005 right it's like 18 years or whatever so I mean is that an indication that I haven't dealt with it enough yeah I don't know the feelings you have towards his loss are they complicated are they because are there unanswered conversations, are there, is there any regrets in there?

[129] Is there, what are, what were those feelings?

[130] Because your mother, as you said, were surprised by your reaction to his loss.

[131] From him dying, I lost, I went off the rails a bit.

[132] And I went off the rails a bit when the sense of my ego took over and I lost any sort of spiritual.

[133] connection that I had with life or the universe up until that point you know I'm I'm never been the most religious person but I've always been a believer in in like universal law right like in if I give I will get you know in in the in the in the way that things are meant to be you know Anything that's happened in my life has been manifested in some sort of way.

[134] You know, when I wanted to be in so solid, I knew who so solid were before they knew who I was.

[135] You know, and I was, I made a, I looked in the mirror one day and said, I'm going to be in that group.

[136] You know, that was, I was a little boy on the streets working out ways to, to be and the universe can constantly bring in people around my situation.

[137] that was connected to that situation that was bridging the gap for me you know so I only had to be I only had to you know focus and believe or whatever so I believe in all that all that stuff but when it come to when my dad passed I like I lost a lot of that those beliefs I lost a lot of that understanding and I became slightly like yeah just lost you know lost I was you know I drank more you know I I did I cared less about myself about where I was going and about you know what I wanted in life and stuff and yeah that led me on a different different sort of journey you know took me to some dark places if I'm honest dark places yeah man just like like definitely not making decisions, purposely making decisions in life that we're going to come back to haunt me, you know?

[138] Like, I mean, a big thing for me was, like, my relationship at the time, I gave up on, you know, I gave up on it.

[139] I became quite, like, promiscuous.

[140] You know, I abused the, the celebrity.

[141] that I had, you know, like I gave into the temptation that was around me a lot more, you know, and I really hurt my first partner by being that person.

[142] And actually that resulted in, in me having two kids out of my relationship, you know, so two of my children, who I love dearly, you know, came from, from that situation.

[143] But I think that was like a big part of my like, you know, my reckless sort of rebellious sort of attitude.

[144] And I mean, the only way I can put it is that I became, I came before everyone at that point, you know, me and my ego and like, the world revolved around me. And I think before that point, even though I did have moments of being quite wayward and whatever, I was still caring, loving Ashley, you know, that's how I, that's how I grew up.

[145] but yeah i definitely came out of my box from that point on um and i guess to me at the time it was like you only live once you know i don't fear anyone whatever happens happens it was that whole thing that was going on but um yeah i'm still still paying the price for those those years now those tapes um have you still got them it's another upsetting story man like so i set up a production company me and a good friend of mine at the time but i was a nightmare to deal with you know this the demons were there and i've i don't i didn't give a hundred percent into this company at all so like a lot of the weight was left on them to kind of hold it up and then i think this person this guy was going through his own troubles as well at the time with his dad and his family and stuff so you know it was a disaster in the end but either way you know we had an archive of footage that we created from filming that we never knew what was going to use it for but all the stuff I filmed my dad went into this archive and when the company actually was dissolved and you know we kind of fell out at that point he took all the tapes and the footage and for how many years now i've been asking to get it back because we don't speak you know but for maybe 10 years now i've been trying to send messages through people i know know him and stuff like that and i just had no response you know and the last thing i want to do is going to some legal sort of battle for it or whatever but It's the last, you know, the other stuff I can let go, but the stuff with my dad, like, it's the last things I've got.

[146] I don't have pictures of him, right?

[147] You know, I don't have, like, family portraits and anything like that.

[148] All I really have is those tapes.

[149] And they're like, they're like my, do you know that movie?

[150] Things to do in Denver when you're dead.

[151] Yeah.

[152] They're like, you know, it's like that to me. It's like gold dust.

[153] it's like I can I could probably watch those tapes and could probably help me through a lot of tough times that I face now or maybe even my kids you know maybe even um help the boys somehow so it'd be nice to get them back it's it's it's really sad it's like it's hurtful man you know and I hope one day I can resolve that situation do you even know if that person still has them do you know what I mean I could be sitting there with the you know thinking that you he has him but he might not but I'm pretty sure he does I'm pretty sure that last two weeks with your father before he passed away my first question is did you did you know he was going to pass away soon and what did you take from those two weeks of sitting with him and asking what is the what did you walk away with that you didn't have in that moment you knew he was much more intelligent than you ever knew but the lessons you speak of that you've that have stayed with you ever since and that have seemingly guided you what were those lessons I knew he was going to pass away I hadn't accepted it yeah you know but it was obvious that he was going to die right it was obvious lessons I think is I got from it what I what I one of the key things I needed I think one of the key things you need from knowing your dad is knowing where you come from I think that's such It's just such a key point in being a dad.

[154] Like if my son can look at me, I can look at my son and kind of he knows who I am, he knows where I came from, he knows what my values are, you know, what I expect of him and stuff like that.

[155] Then I think it makes him easier for him going out there to be just a person, to be a human being.

[156] When you're constantly looking for that reference point, right?

[157] You're lost.

[158] You know, and when I spent those two weeks with him, I kind of got a better understanding of, oh, okay, this is why I do that funny thing with my eye when, you know what I'm lying or this is why I feel this way at this point.

[159] And, you know, he was powerful as a man. He didn't have anything, didn't have anything.

[160] but he oozed some sort of confidence and charm right that you can't buy like you know what I mean and I felt that and I saw that in him and it made me understand about I should feel more like that by myself do you know what I mean I should feel more powerful look you don't have to be a dickhead you know when you're you know when you're confident doesn't have to come across that way but he had he had that like that level of confidence with like a some beautiful sort of humility that went with it but you know and that was my dad that was my dad's so it made me know that I can be that person you know that I don't need to doubt myself as much as I do and he stripped away from me he constantly in that little time i spent with me stripped away all the because i was like hiding myself in success i've got this i've got this watch i've got this car this coat and staying in this apartment and this and that or whatever and he didn't give a shit about any of that and i don't know whether he was doing it on purpose but he genuinely was like I mean, it's good, you know what I mean?

[161] But, and he, he, he, he knew a lot more about me than, and thought he did.

[162] So he paid attention, somehow.

[163] Um, but I, I walked away from that meeting, that encounter, knowing that he loved me. And knowing that he was proud of me, you know.

[164] he was proud um and that was good enough what would you say to him if he was listening now um i think i i didn't tell him thank you no i hope he didn't get on that plane feeling like you know feeling like i was still unhappy with him because i treated him quite bad you know especially when i mean when he was going through his cancer when he told me he had cancer i was just like whatever like i don't even believe you you probably just saying it for me because you want me to talk to you that's how i that was my attitude towards towards him in that period of time that's how much anger i was holding so you know i let go of a lot of that whilst we was together but i do wonder if there was any doubt in his mind when he left you know because i couldn't you know it's not like i was like you know all over him and touchy feeling and kissing him and you know rubbing him and stroking him and stuff i still kept a bit of a you know a toughness about it like i'm not going to let you in like that you know but i do i do hope that he could read between the lines and know that i'd soften slightly and like let him in a bit if you could see all the success you've had now what do you reckon you'd think all that you've done it'd probably try and tell me like you know it'd be like you're not doing this right you're not doing that right you could improve in this area and that area and whatever but um we've probably butt heads about it but you know that would be all good i'd take that now in hindsight i'd take you know what i'd take it you try and be your dad that's what dad's do right i mean that's it yeah yeah that's it moms do the same yeah yeah yeah some of i i do envy some of my friends that i know like i've got a really good relationships with their dads and, you know, their dads have looked over their contracts and stuff like that.

[165] Do you know what I mean?

[166] I've been a major part of their life.

[167] You know, I'm determined to do that for my kids if they ever need it.

[168] In hindsight, though, we look at some of the most difficult things we've been through and overcome and we understand the correlation that has with the better things about us or the things that we're proud of.

[169] Like, there's often a surprising link between the worst thing that's happened to us or the worst trauma we've had and the best thing that's happened to us.

[170] And as I was listening to all of that, you know, you used this word talent at the very beginning.

[171] You said I must have just had a talent.

[172] But I'm not necessarily sure what you mean by talent because you grew up with an ability to have that talent in multiple areas.

[173] You were, you had it in music, you had it acting in a very young age.

[174] And there's part of me that wonders that, you know, about the link of the things.

[175] things that you went through in the circumstances you were in and how that left you with this trait you described as not quite ever thinking your work or you were good enough how that actually all played into your drive and ambition to go that extra mile to work that extra hour to spend an extra hour in the editing studio and i often see in people that when they have that feeling of like some call it imposter syndrome i don't like the term that they actually produce better work because they end up becoming the perfectionist that you your father told you not to be so it's interesting that there's a correlation there and um if i asked you you know because i was looking at this and you started acting super young i'm wondering how it's possible that at 15 years old you are not only joining one of the most successful um groups at the time in so solid crew but you're also acting on the bbc 15 16 17 years old you're doing two things that most people never i mean if if if one person had just been in so solid crew that would be a success they would be a success but for you to be doing both things at the same time what have i missed here like what is it about you that um your character traits your philosophy your mindset that you think has really guided you through that process i'm gonna i'm gonna struggle to really to answer this stephen if in all honesty because it kind of involves like um it kind of involves bigger myself up a bit more than I'm comfortable with, if I'm honest.

[176] But since we're here, no, I joke.

[177] No, I think it's more, look, I don't, I don't, I believe there's that some of that charm that we spoke about that I saw in my dad, I know I have in me, right?

[178] So I have the, I have that ability.

[179] I know how to talk to people I know if I kind of if I get into a situation like this with me and you like I can make people like me or whatever like it's a little thing that I've got and I try and bring that out in the characters that I play on the screen I think I always bring a bit of myself to the roles I play so as much as I'm hiding behind these characters or whatever the engine room is Ashley and if I can find ways to use my trauma to portray this I do I think outside of the ring when I say ring I'm in the acting space I'm humble you know I don't brag I keep it simple and I treat people as good as I can do you know what I mean and I give back a lot you know i'm always about like trying to help other people it's always been a part of me so i think that's helped move me forward and i think especially in in like within the black community you know where i was one of the first to kind of break through when there was only a few black faces on screens and a lot of black people that are you know maybe in their 40s now have grown up watching me um that's the ashley that they know you know i think i'm never i've always been quite accessible um i've never like turned my back on you know where i came from you know for some reason in some way i've managed to stay in that place where it's like oh it's ash yeah you know I'm like...

[180] You haven't lost sight of yourself.

[181] Yeah, it's like people are comfortable around me this is why like still to this day you know, a lot of people are like bro, why are you just walking down the street or why are you just on the train or why are you just sitting in this like because I can because people don't really you know, they don't really want to like I don't have the do you know what I mean the Justin Bieber effect on people like you don't have to shut down stores or whatever when I come in like people look and stuff like that but it's like I just feel like they've got they used to me yeah yeah you know what I mean and I think like I mean I'm straight enough point a bit but I think like all of this as part of my character as part of my personality ties into why I've been working for so long you know why I've managed to maintain relationships in the industry and why I have a solid like fan base you know a solid base of supporters that will show up to my shows to watch my films or watch, do you know what mean?

[182] Why people still invest in me. Yeah, it makes sense.

[183] And we often don't think about the role that people skills will play over a long period of time.

[184] But it's like a force that's either, it's like an invisible force, like your reputation in terms of how you've churned up for people that will, when you zoom out, we'll catch up with you either way, for better or for worse.

[185] You know what I mean?

[186] Yeah, that's it.

[187] That's it.

[188] You call it like invisible.

[189] it's like what how you've treated people along the way well and people don't often focus on that because there's other things they might try and focus on but that force that's kind of just making sure people call you when there's the opportunity or they recommend you in a room you're not in and that all comes down to everything you've just said there if I'm honest with you's help me so much in a sense of I've made mistakes along the way you know I've made mistakes that I've not necessarily been public mistakes i'm i've never say that i'm a perfect person but when i have made those mistakes people that have known me have supported me you know what i mean so because you know i've been good i've been good to people like so um you know when we live in a world today where you know any minute people can turn their back on you any minute people can you know they want to call it and that happens day in and day out um so you know i feel like i feel really proud of the fact that i've been as genuine as i can be coming up if i was one of your kids then and i come to you know say dad listen i want to be an actor no well no no i couldn't i couldn't i mean i couldn't tell them no but i i would be worried why because it's just hard it's it's a hard to crack.

[190] Yeah, but you did it, Dads.

[191] Yeah, I did it.

[192] I don't know how.

[193] I'm yet to know what the blueprint is.

[194] It's tough.

[195] You know, my students at Kingdom ask me this all the time.

[196] And I'm like, all I can teach you is like how to prepare.

[197] How it's going to happen, when it's going to happen or whatever.

[198] That is like, it's an anomaly, man. That's like, it comes when it comes, right?

[199] And you just got to be kind of ready for it at the time.

[200] But yeah, I mean, my kids.

[201] And the worst thing about it is Like most of them probably are going to do something In entertainment I can see that So it's going to be tough It's going to be tough for them It's going to be tough for me But it is a It is a rocky road And it's a tough life But I will support them All the way What is that So if I go If I was like that What do you mean Rocky Road Rocky Road?

[202] Rocky Road meaning you know for years I'd say only in the last 10 years I've been financially stable but I've been acting all in my life so not knowing sometimes how I was going to feed my children you know what was going to happen next you know just whether I was coming or going it was just unstable um and the rejection is amazing immense man like you have to be really tough in places when it comes to 80 % of it is people just tell you no like this ain't going to happen you're not going to be able to do it that's probably not going to work sorry we don't want you not this time you were great but you know what I'm saying it's like that a lot of the time what people get to see is it is that little 10 % that works Why didn't you listen to them?

[203] Because I spoke to someone close to you and they told me, they said, it's funny because earlier on you went, I'm not good at, you weren't good at saying no to people, right?

[204] Because you said you have these people pleaser tendencies.

[205] When I spoke to people close to you, they said, you're not good at hearing no either.

[206] As in, if someone says no to you, it turns into driving motivation.

[207] Yeah, well.

[208] So why don't you listen to them?

[209] When all these people rejected you and said, no, it's not going to work, you're not going to be in this movie or this thing.

[210] it's kind of throwing me a bit now I'm thinking about who you spoke to yeah but people are in your team they say that you know you're when someone says no to you like you can't direct Ashley you go you know yeah yeah yeah I mean I have that but I'm not like I don't have it in a way of like not in a rude way but it turns into motivation it does it does yeah it does you know I stay when I'm silent that's when people should worry about me because you know that's when i'm that's when i'm thinking how to get around you or how to do that thing that you you said i can't do but when someone says you can't do something ashley walters you can't do that how does that feel i don't like to i mean it doesn't feel good doesn't feel good um especially when i know there's a way especially when i know that i can you know or i believe that I can.

[211] I just prefer people to let me try.

[212] And if it fails, then we can both agree, maybe it wasn't going to work the way I said it was.

[213] And we try a different way or we don't revisit it.

[214] But I need the opportunity to bring how I feel to the table.

[215] And yeah, there have been times where I have accepted, like it's not going to work or whatever.

[216] And I've regretted it after because someone else has come and done it.

[217] So I think I've become, I've got tougher with that over the years.

[218] And like the directing thing was one of those things because I was told like, you know, you can't direct.

[219] It was my own show that I created.

[220] It was like, no, you haven't got enough experience.

[221] Like, yeah, I've watched some of the directors you brought on here.

[222] never be I've got more experience than them I've been I've been filming since I was like seven and to hear that it's like you know it's a kick in the teeth but I went to you know I went to my business partner after that I was like how do we change this and he was like well if you're serious about it let's make a short film we're making a short film we won't have made a short film got some money from Sky, made this short film, and that came out.

[223] But I think actually what happened in that process was, I liked it.

[224] I wasn't expecting to like directing so much.

[225] At that point, it was about you want experience, I'm going to get your experience, the best experience that you could possibly have.

[226] But actually threw out the process, I was like, no, I like this man. I enjoy this process.

[227] And I spiraled into, and me doing more.

[228] You said you talked about kingdom there.

[229] Those students that come to you that you mentor that ask you, you know, you said, okay, you can't help them figure out how and when it's going to happen, but you can get them prepared.

[230] What is preparation for the life you've lived?

[231] Ah, boy.

[232] Well, I make a point of always saying to them that if you've come here trying to have my journey, you're going to have to go to prison you know lose your dad this that where I told them all negative things that's happened because that's what's made me so I was speaking to Laura about this I was like look I can't sit there and regret things that have gone wrong because the truth is if they hadn't if those series of events hadn't happened in the way they happened on the days they happened I wouldn't be sitting here now and I wouldn't have all the great things that I have the kids and this and that any little thing that was different might have changed a whole course in my life so I have to accept that would you erase it?

[233] Would you erase your dad passing going to prison if there's a button in front of you now?

[234] No I couldn't no really I couldn't well if I erased that then I might have you know like that picture in back to the future where he's like when he's not getting home or something like and his brother starts to fade away his sister starts to fade it's like if I raised that and brought my dad back I might erase like four of my children do you know what I mean actually six degrees of separation you might not be in you never know right so no I couldn't I couldn't you have to live with it and I say this to students it's like so it's not about the journey it's about how you use your journey and more importantly enjoying the journey because I tell you now Stephen it's not that enjoyable where I am the best parts of what I've achieved has been along the way do you know what I mean the people I've met the fun I've had doing things the filming the memories this and that or whatever actually looking back the challenges the people saying no so what I had to do to get around that to get there and whatever actually like a think when you clock the game, it's like, oh, I'm not saying I've clocked it, but I'm saying I can see with the people that I know that are like in that space where they've kind of like, there's not much more to do.

[235] I think it's pretty boring.

[236] Like I don't envy them.

[237] You know, I don't envy them.

[238] I may want that Lambo, but I don't envy where they're out.

[239] Yeah, like, you know, that space that they're in because there's nothing much more to achieve it for.

[240] feels like and I'm always like I have to have a fix like I have to there has to be something else like I'm very can be very fickle like that like I can be very focused and determined and whatever and now like I'm doing this Disney show and it's like I've shot the Disney show and you know I'm editing but I want it to end now because I want to do another show so let me play out this the scenario then Ashley it was funny because as you were saying that I was imagining someone coming into your life and saying, Ashley, you can't work for another two years, you've just got to sit at home.

[241] But then I remembered we had that.

[242] Oh, yeah.

[243] The pandemic.

[244] Yeah, yeah.

[245] How did you respond to that?

[246] Not well.

[247] Sitting down is not good for me. You know, my wife and I, we can't, we can really go on holiday together because what she wants to do is read books.

[248] She didn't get to read and lie on Sunlaunchess and stuff.

[249] And I'm like, I can't, I can't live like that.

[250] You know, I need to be doing something.

[251] Something's got to happen or be happening.

[252] What if it doesn't?

[253] It's tough for me. It's uncomfortable.

[254] It's uncomfortable.

[255] What was the pandemic like in the first couple of weeks, sat at home alone?

[256] Nothing can't go to the gym, can't move.

[257] That was tough, man. That was tough.

[258] Like, taking away my work from me and, you know, all of those, all of that talk of me being like, I'd love to be there more with the kids and love to speak with my wife a lot more and whatever.

[259] I realized that I didn't.

[260] I, I weren't ready for it.

[261] I weren't ready for 24 hours with my family.

[262] I wasn't used to it.

[263] I was always used to having a release or knowing that, all right, I'm going to have this week full on at home, but then next week I'm going there, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.

[264] So there was always something coming um but yeah it was a it was a struggle it it opened up a lot of um a lot of things in our relationship definitely i mean me and the misses you know um we dealt with a lot now we argued a lot throughout that period of time it was like it was tough it was a lot of things i didn't realize irritated me you know maybe about her and vice versa you know she realizes a lot of of things that irritated her about me I guess because we're spending so much time together If I was to fly on the wall in your household at that time what would I, what Ashley would I have seen?

[265] In that first couple of weeks.

[266] Yeah, I mean, depressed.

[267] No, they were sad.

[268] Depressed?

[269] Yeah, slightly.

[270] Yeah, not worried about, I mean, worried about the state of the game, worried about where we was.

[271] I mean, I was one of those people that was worried as, if I was am I gonna die do you know what I mean that was like one of my first thoughts like did you ever breakdown no I don't think I had a breakdown I don't think I had a breakdown I don't think I had a breakdown I kind of know where you're you're mean there was I had a moment I did have a moment because I think I think the pressure the pressure of not like it was it was hard for me not to not to have the choice to work like it was hard for me not to have the choice to do certain things with my life you know and yeah it took it took its toll on me I think I don't know I don't know if I would go as far as saying I had a breakdown but I was very depressed I was very I was very low the reason I ask the question is because someone who I think you remind me and myself in many ways where I think at some level I'm getting some of my self -esteem and some of my self -worth from my work.

[272] Like, by being successful in my work, I think I feel like I'm good in myself to some degree.

[273] It's probably an illusion, but it makes me feel that way.

[274] It's probably the same reason people buy Lamborghinis.

[275] Like, it is an illusion.

[276] It's not going to fill the void, but it keeps me stable.

[277] The chaos keeps me stable.

[278] And that's why I ask the questions, because it's one of those moments in our lives where for someone like you where your work is requires you to be on sets mine i could still do from my laptop right but for you you have you have to be on sets and all that stuff shut down we locked down um so how does one because i'm guessing here that you have the same relationship with your work on some level where it makes you feel like you're good yeah yeah yeah like you're enough yeah yeah i mean yeah you're right you're hitting an on the head i mean i can't i can't articulate it any better i guess that's what happened it was stripped a bit of me away and i became a civilian do you know what i mean it was like the little part of me that made me slightly different to to the people around me had been taken away and i just had to be ashley and just and actually sit with my thoughts and deal with my floors you know you'd spent a long time distracting yourself yeah 100 % but it became evident you know i was drinking a little bit too much i smoked a lot um you know i was burning my nails and i know this thing sounds stupid but to me they were like things i'd never been able to conquer um and became more apparent and evident where i had nothing else to do sitting with yourself and sitting with your thoughts how's that for you it wasn't great wasn't great at the time um it's not i mean it's not always great now i'm a strong believer in that um that voice in my head is a mug i he's not the right person for me to be listening to really i don't believe anyone should listen to voices in their head if I'm honest with you your head is it's an extension of you right it's going to be trying to like it's bias it's going to be telling you majority of the time saying you the shit you want to hear you know telling you stuff that's not really happening but you know trying to justify I just think you know why is he a mug that voice in your head because I mean he's made me make some terrible decisions the my opinion um now nowadays i try to try to quiet and the voice as much as possible right um and connect i think that's the most important thing to do like if i can if i'm sitting there thinking something and i'm no i don't know the answer something maybe emotion or something And it's like it makes more sense to call my mum or to call someone else, you know, I mean, or to speak to open up to my wife about it and go, what do you think about this?

[279] And get someone else's perspective and then make decisions.

[280] But I feel like, you know, as emotional creatures as we are as humans and we, you know, a lot of the moves that we made are based on.

[281] you know emotion anger fear you know jealousy this that whatever i just think you don't you should never be making decisions in that in that frame of mind you know you should always have someone to bounce something off but i just don't think the voice in your head i mean look in my in my opinion um in my life the voice in my head has never been the best voices i've done some some of the most stupid things because i said to myself it's the right thing to do the the personality of that voice angry you said yeah at times look there's a there's there's a there's a very vengeful person somewhere inside of me i believe we've all got that part of us you know um some of the things that go through my head sometimes scare me um Because I've been hurt, you know, I've been hurt.

[282] And sometimes it feels like the easiest thing to do is hurt other people.

[283] But I'm just glad that I have the ability to control those feelings and to think about things.

[284] And to kind of always in any how I can do it, move forward with love.

[285] And I have a clear understanding that, you know, hurt people, hurt people.

[286] so if you can if you can if you can if you can forgive you know you're not you're doing yourself a great favor first and foremost if you can forgive if i can forgive the people that hurt me right do you forgive everybody in your life i don't think i've got round to forgiving everyone i think i do carry a lot of a lot of baggage but i'm working on it you know i'm working on it um and i'm working on making amends with other people as well that maybe don't forgive me you know um but what i do know is the people that maybe i don't forgive they probably forgotten who i am you know but i'm sitting there thinking about them all the time and it's like so who's really hurt you're hurting yourself yeah that's the nature isn't it of holding the grudges which we will do but it just does no damage to the other person does it is i remember reading that quote one day and it was like forgiving someone is like letting a prisoner go and realizing and doing so that you were the prison of the whole time.

[287] Like you can imagine opening the gates to the jail and seeing yourself run out.

[288] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[289] Yeah.

[290] I was going, fuck.

[291] Yeah.

[292] I was only hurting myself.

[293] You said something quite curious there which gave me a chain of thought, which is sometimes I just want to speak to my wife, Danielle, about it.

[294] Now speaking to your wife about it, when I think about the other points you've given me about not being like growing up the way you did, your emotion not coming naturally to you.

[295] I'm guessing you're like me in some respects where, because I, having the kind of conversations that you need to have to have to keep a woman in your life, don't come naturally to me either.

[296] I still don't even call my parents, but I never call my parents' mum or dad.

[297] I just don't, I didn't have that affection growing up.

[298] So if you don't build the ability to communicate in a certain way and to listen in a certain way and show emotion in a certain way, you have no chance of being in a loving, committed relationship and getting all the benefits of that.

[299] What journey have you been on with like?

[300] Because it's funny, because I was thinking about that moment where you're locked down together and the war.

[301] And much of the war is like either one person or two people that don't know how to communicate properly.

[302] Yeah, that was the war.

[303] The war was because Dan is like, she's the most loving, caring, tactile.

[304] to a person I've ever met in my life like to the point that when I first met her um when I first met her no when we first started dating I met her a long time before we started dating right when we first started dating and I met her family and I saw how her family are together like it made me sick and I know now that was it was jealousy because I just never I love my mum and I know my mum loves me but we can go without talking for two weeks we're not all over each other hugging, do you know what I mean like we just have that really clean relationship right?

[305] Yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like that like whereas Dan's family was completely different I'd come home you know to the to the flat and they're like all be lying on the sofa together like lying in each other's laps her her brother's her mom or whatever then her dad would come out of the kitchen oh you're right ash whatever it's just like this whole and in the beginning i was like oh this is great and on me like i can't i can't deal with this this is weird you know that was my first reaction this is weird but um i've learned to love it i've become a part of that family and i've learned to realize that i want some of that I wanted some of that, you know, I wanted some of that.

[306] It doesn't make me love my, like, family any less, but it's nice to get some of that loving, like some of that, you know, physical stuff.

[307] So, yeah, that's where Dan comes from.

[308] So her side of the street is always like, I'm like, strap your boots up, something's gone wrong.

[309] how do we solve it it's getting cracking and she wants to be like I want to talk about what went wrong and not do anything about and I just can't understand like sometimes we're like chalk and cheese I'm just like you want to sit there for an hour telling me how you feel how you feel and I don't get that and I do have to like I need to understand that more slowly but surely and like I'm getting there slowly but surely I'll come a step closer but I'm quite, you know, I can be quite cold as a husband and it doesn't, that doesn't work with her.

[310] And she's a feisty woman as well.

[311] So she's not scared to tell you.

[312] It reminds me of myself and my relationship, but at the same time I know that that that's exactly what I need.

[313] Because imagine if I was in a relationship with someone like me, it would be all too one way.

[314] So it's almost like the other person is a counterbalance and they're pulling a side out of me that's actually beneficial for me and I've seen it's beneficial for me but I ain't given it willingly.

[315] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[316] Yeah, I'm kicking and screaming.

[317] I'll kick it and screaming.

[318] She's got to be cracking up at this because I don't even know whether she understands that I know.

[319] That's how I am.

[320] And so, you know, but I do.

[321] I get it and I struggle.

[322] I struggle.

[323] with it but it's something that I like you know on a daily basis I'm just trying to to give it more and you're right you're completely right it's like it helps me in everything else that I'm doing kind of bringing that side of me out do you have any ideas why where that came from I guess in one respect I think about it in my own context I go I never learned that no one ever told me that so it's like alien behavior but there is a part of me that at a deep level I feel uncomfortable with it like there's something about when my girlfriend wants to sit down for an hour and talk about how she's feeling and the situation we're in and stuff where I kind of get a bit of an allergic reaction to it and I kind of want to run and I kind of just want to like what can I do to fix it now?

[324] Like do you know what I mean?

[325] What can I press by say just to end it to fix it?

[326] Because something about me feels uncomfortable sharing my emotions is it a defence thing me you know what I'm saying like is it oh did I just not learn how to do it or is it both I think it's I think it's a combination of both like I I know for me I definitely haven't learned how how to to do that I don't know how to I was saying it to a friend yesterday I was like because he was like he was talking about his wife and stuff and like she she's working now and he's not working and her job finishes at like two in the morning she gets home about three and then she wants to tell him about her day whilst they're in bed and he's like he doesn't want to hear it because it makes him feel like he wants to go and beat up her boss because you know the stuff that she's telling him is like so he gets angry about it and it starts to hold resentments or whatever but he keeps his mouth shut and I said I can't do that because what happens with me is I cannot just listen do you know what I mean I've worked that out now like I it burns me to keep my mouth shut because I want to solve it for you you're a fixer yeah I'm a fixer I feel like that's what I need to do there's no world where I feel like you're telling me something just for me to listen to it like that's a crazy to me so I feel like when you're telling me something it's like all right so you want me to you know you could be just saying I walked down the street I fell over or whatever and you know that happened like last week or whatever I'm like so should we book an appointment do you need to should we x -ray your like I need to do something and I think the the key to you know but that's my mom was has been like that you know my mom was Shut up.

[327] How are you going to fix it?

[328] Ah, so you learn.

[329] Be quiet.

[330] What, you know what I mean?

[331] What's your next steps?

[332] How are you going to make this?

[333] You want to go there?

[334] Write me a business plan.

[335] That's what I went through in my life.

[336] So you know, communication was for the pre -counter to take some action.

[337] Yeah.

[338] It wasn't as a way to connect.

[339] Yeah, it went back to let's sit down and just talk about each other's days.

[340] I was like, God, that must be difficult.

[341] in terms of like if i'm danny your your partner and she comes from that background she must have taken her a lot of work to understand you that it's not that you don't love her it's none of that because that's how that must feel that coldness um shall i be honest with you yeah please she's it feels like that to her now yeah i think i don't think she's understand yeah i mean i'm i'm hoping somewhere deep down she does because she's still rocking with me have you told her though have you told her this because i feel like you probably find it easier to talk to me than to say to her about the sort of person that i am yeah all of the stuff you said like you said today yeah i mean we've done a lot of we do a lot of work on it we're in counselling you know we're in counseling um every week and that we discuss it you know we talk about it I don't think, I think the issue has been up until that point being in a room where someone's slightly mediating and helping to pull things out of you, I haven't felt comfortable enough to be honest with her, you know, personally.

[342] But I think that's happening more now and there's ways, you know, we're learning ways to kind of talk about issues that we have with each other.

[343] And you're a dad now, so you've got kids, so you must think about how that sort of a generational cycle you talked about with your father then you is then going to play out in the next generation 100 % yeah i mean you know i carry a lot of fear for that because it hasn't gone great with all of my children you know i don't have the greatest relationship with all of my kids especially my older ones um you had you had those when you were 17 those kids at 17 18 years old yeah um you went to jail at 19 years old so you were absent for much of that period yeah a lot of the first bits of their life and then when i wasn't i was out you know i was touring i was me doing music and then i was acting and then and then i mean if i'm honest with you a lot of the other times like i didn't i didn't care enough i didn't and i cared about them i loved my children but i didn't want the the adult responsibility that came with it and I didn't want to sacrifice you know what I needed to do um in order to give to them so for a long period of time I was like I was not I was not there in the way that I should be and I know that I felt I'm paying I'm slightly paying the price for that now what is the price for that is I feel like there's a slight distance between me and I with the kids you know there's a lack of trust there um in feeling sometimes like, you know, why don't they come to me about that?

[344] Yeah, yeah.

[345] That's for me to, that's a dad thing to, it's a dad conversation to have.

[346] And as well, I think I passed on my, my distant kind of ways to them.

[347] So, you know, as much as like, when we're together, we have a amazing time and whatever but they don't call me that much you know um i think it's the same with me and my dad's i think uh we never really had a close relationship and i think he probably had the same with his father and i have the same with him and my fear is how that translates downwards to the next generation um but me and my father i wouldn't say we're like he knows what's going on on my life other than him listening to this there isn't like the phone call yeah to update him or anything so I can relate top boy yeah crazy crazy how that all played out yeah yeah it's um it's been an amazing journey you know um never never thought it would actually when we're shooting the first season I remember Kane looking at me and going are they going to put this you're gonna put this on tv because the subject matter you know some of the things we were we was in the process it was in we're shooting that scene where we cut off um sway's finger in the market in summer house and we was literally looking at each other like that channel four going to put this on tv we've never seen anything on tv like it at the time but you know cut from that to to where we are today one of the biggest shows on netflix one of our biggest kind of exports from the UK globally and you know people walking down the street and people just just hearing to Shane from every angle of London it's crazy you know it changed my life change my life in hindsight you see what how big of an opportunity it was but when someone approached you with that and that you saw the script and you saw the role you'd be playing in it you must not have had an idea that it was going to...

[348] What did you think?

[349] I didn't.

[350] Do you know, do you want to know why I did it?

[351] Why?

[352] Because, like, literally months before, I'd said to my agent, I said, look, I'm sick of just being a bad boy.

[353] Like, I can't keep on playing these same roles.

[354] Like, all I'm getting is, after I'd done Bullet Boy, I was just getting the same scripts over and over again.

[355] You've been typecast.

[356] Typecast, yeah.

[357] And I was like, I'm not...

[358] You know, I've done a bit of research.

[359] I'd watched like videos of other actors, like American actors, had been in the same position and other people.

[360] And I just said, look, I have to be willing not to work, but I want to be seen for other roles.

[361] Like I want to be, and she made me know.

[362] She was like, look, you may not get any work for a while.

[363] That means like no money, no this and that.

[364] And I was like, oh, so be it.

[365] So that kind of, that situation came about.

[366] but then the top boy script came i remember not too long after having that conversation and for the first time for me reading that script i was like wow it felt like like goodfellas scarface like all of those shows those films that had grown up on that were very violent don't get me wrong but behind it all, there was some structure and hierarchy.

[367] It was the first time that I'd seen black organized crime not looking like a bunch of crazy kids with hoodies just doing crazy shit and not having no, you know, with no sense.

[368] It was like I read characters that were human, that I finally was like I saw the people behind the hood.

[369] I understood why they was doing what they was doing or what their motivation was for whether I agreed with it or not and I saw a character in DeShane that was like aspired for greater like he wanted he wanted to change the face of the game his initial intention was that I can do this I'm going to be the best at it right but along the way I'm not going to hurt people and I'm going to feed everyone you know and he was like you know that entrepreneurial kind of it was like there within the script and within the character and that was like it that turned me so like literally months after going I ain't doing no more of these roles or whatever that script coming I was like yeah I'm doing this one though and that's what made me that's what made me do it and there was no hesitation once I've read it no once I've never read anything like it and you got to imagine I was reading loads of like when I say everything I read was about a black boy from inner city London that was a drug dealer or was stabbing someone or was shooting someone or whatever is like loads of different iterations of the same character right and when I read that just stood out for me it was something different I knew that there was something different about it but I'd had no idea that it would cut through the way it did channel four just didn't do a third series right they stopped um at two series why was that i couldn't figure i couldn't figure that out from rummaging and reading yeah i mean you're not the only one who can't figure it out i mean i think over the years because i've been asked that so much right i've learned or created scenarios that could have happened oh okay right that i so i don't know but um i do think there was a change of guard around the time that it was the third season should have been commissioned.

[370] And I feel like when that happens, ideas need to change in order for the new person to feel like they're not living off the coattails of what the last person created that was successful.

[371] And usually it's the most successful thing that gets the acts then.

[372] Because there's nothing that, you know, I can't take the credit for this success.

[373] so I feel like that might have been a reason why or maybe there just wasn't the space there at the time for them to take it where it needed to go to the next level but either way like we discussed before so good that it happened that way right and it had that space to just not be around and for people to want it back for so many years before we got into the the new situation.

[374] Why did it come back in your view?

[375] I think it, timing wise, when it was on Channel 4, it landed at such a pivotal time just in London and for culture.

[376] And, you know, coincided with like your, you know, the real kind of social media kind of push and all of that stuff.

[377] So I think it was kind of cemented.

[378] in people's minds and I think it was like the first of its kind really to you know to do what it did so I think that that having that fan base that key kind of niche sort of fan base cult fan base kept it alive and then I think it translated as well didn't it really interestingly because a lot of the the work at that time that was one on the surface might think was similar those stories of you know like um of London and young black men and crime and all of that stuff, they didn't translate well globally.

[379] They didn't cross over to like different audiences and in the same way that for some reason Top Boy just crossed over.

[380] And maybe it's because of that complexity and how thought through the plots and storylines and characters are.

[381] And it wasn't just surface level shit.

[382] Like a lot of the other stuff was like stereotypical surface level.

[383] Yeah.

[384] It was humans on the page.

[385] And what happened, you walk away from the Like you root for these characters no matter what they're doing.

[386] And that's because they're 3D.

[387] And so you understand kind of what's going on in their heads.

[388] I think we, from the beginning, we've always incorporated what's going on outside of that world.

[389] Like, you know, like the, you know, I think in like season one on Channel 4, it was like mental health.

[390] You know, there was a lot of other issues that we were throwing in there.

[391] and like, you know, with the little kid, gem soul, just kind of his family structure and neglect from his parents and stuff like that.

[392] There was other things that kind of we talked about that you just didn't get in the other shows.

[393] And then we had, I mean, a big, big part of this puzzle was Jan Damage.

[394] Because he's a filmmaker.

[395] he's a very cinematic well -versed kind of filmmaker that knows how to get brilliant performances out of people and remember you know maybe 90 % of our cast in that first season had never acted before crazy so you needed someone at the helm driving that that had a clear understanding of how to get great performances out of people that hadn't had that much experience and also shoot a beautiful TV show.

[396] What do you have to do to get the best performance out of yourself?

[397] Do you have any rituals or anything when you know you're going on set?

[398] Is there anything that you do to embody the character?

[399] And to also just like get yourself in the right frame of mind.

[400] I have no set of rules, but I'm open to being willing to do what it takes.

[401] for any given it's different every time you know I've had characters where I've gone into to play that I'm like I don't even know if I can do this so I'm shit scared so I would do everything like I'm not eating I'm moving don't speak to people that I love like you know this was for a role where I played like an alcoholic like crack addicted like character I stopped eating food.

[402] You know, I needed to lose the weight.

[403] I needed to feel homeless.

[404] So I kind of put myself in a situation where I left my household and I slept on a mattress in a one bedroom kind of apartment thing and like really push myself to the limits.

[405] Because sometimes I don't know how else I'm going to do something.

[406] Like just being able to act isn't enough.

[407] like I need to feel it like I need to you know and then there's other times where I'm like actually I don't need to do that much like I know this person like quite well you know I need to be well versed on on who that character is what their backstory is so I can be free like when I'm in the moment but you know I'm just I'm not one of these guys that have like a set of rules and a lot of the time I believe less is more.

[408] You know, I don't want to be over prepared because then I feel like there's no vulnerability, you know?

[409] So it gets picked up by Netflix?

[410] Yeah.

[411] And it becomes a mega, mega show, one of their biggest shows of all time.

[412] Life changes for you hugely.

[413] You go on this journey for another two seasons on Netflix and then you have one final season on its way.

[414] How do you feel about that?

[415] it's bittersweet what's the bitter and what's the sweet um it's bitter that some of the people on that show that i've worked with the whole time and been doing it i like my family you know and actually i know we've discussed this the type of person like i am i'm not going to see them that much after it was our reason for connection um so what happens in this world you move on you make other families you develop other relationships so i worry about like losing those connections a bit um you look sad as you say it i can see the emotion in your face yeah that's a bit of thing for me it's like time with these people than you do with your actual family you know you invest so much into them and so it's tough i mean and i mean if i'm honest with you the last film in the last season brought me and kane probably even closer than we've ever been kind of doing that show because we don't have the greatest time you know fighting for what we believed in um and making it the best show that we could make it be, you know, the best last season for the fans.

[416] Like, people don't understand, like, we go hard for that show.

[417] We go hard to make sure the scripts are right.

[418] We go hard to make sure other characters are being represented in the way they should be.

[419] And storylines make sense and whatever.

[420] And the truth is we faced a lot of resistance this time around, you know.

[421] We wasn't given the creative input all the time.

[422] that we desired and this is like a common thing you know this happens behind the scene so this is not me being a you know a grass or anything it's just like it's the reality and sometimes you know when there's seven execs eight execs not everyone agrees and you've got a you know you have to it's business you've been there right you know it goes yeah so it was it was tough we went for a tough experience we haven't been through before and that brought us closer together so it's even harder knowing that this is the last time because we developed another level to our relationship where I was like, ah, like as businessmen, like, we're a team as well, you know what I mean?

[423] You know, but the sweet thing about it, if I want to make, you know, end on a positive is that I've got my life back.

[424] You know, it's, I mean, to a certain extent, you know, DeShane is a very popular character um but when i say life back meaning that i can pursue other avenues um you know contractually i was tied down to that show for for a long time you know that's how it works and it'd be nice to to see what else is out there what else i can do where i can take my career um you scared a little bit i was just going to say that yeah i said it's also scary because that was um to get that stability in in the acting game is very rare you know usually if you want that sort of stability with a show or whatever then you have to you have to go and do a soap you know um don't really get it from like drama like that um so yeah it's been nice it's been good for the family it's been good for me to focus on just being an artist and enjoying what I do rather than worrying about mortgages and, you know, other stuff.

[425] But, yeah, been a brilliant time.

[426] Did you win the fight?

[427] When I say the fight, you two were fighting to have the show be the way you want it to be.

[428] Are you happy with how it's ended up this final season?

[429] Yeah.

[430] Yeah.

[431] I mean, look, I wouldn't say necessarily that we won.

[432] Mm -hmm.

[433] But I think the process of pushing back and fighting for what you're believing, always, without doing that, I don't think we would have got to, where we got to.

[434] I think that you, the push and pull that happens within that process is what makes the show as good as it is.

[435] You'll never be able to see the impact it's had on young people's lives all around the world and perceptions shifting and all of these things.

[436] but if you were to try and define that, what is the impact you think the show's had on culture, on the world?

[437] Exactly that.

[438] I think, if I can define it, it will be, I had a meeting today with like a Nigerian, a Nigerian man that owns like a record label, a very famous record label right and production company um we sat down today and we was talking and he was like thank you because it's made his job a lot easier you know i had the same conversation with gigs who spends a lot of time in the states and he was like i don't have to explain myself anymore when i go out there like around the world they now because of the show they kind of know where I come from you know so when it comes to marketing or whatever you do you know what I mean like announcing yourself when you go somewhere into a new territory or whatever it's like there is an association for them to to have and I think that's what the show has done it's kind of taken us from cups of tea and biscuits and period drama and maybe not in hill or whatever you know stuff like that to the rest of the world kind of understanding that, you know, and there's another side to what we have.

[439] And I think as a foundation, as a way of opening the door into the international market, accepting what we export, I think is really good.

[440] I think now from here we should push on into telling black stories that don't necessarily have to be from the same world as Top Boy, you know.

[441] There should be black detectives, there should be black superheroes, there should be black, you know, we can, the boundaries are, you know, they're endless, but I think that it's open, it's really opened the door internationally for like people trusting in what we give them.

[442] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question in my diary for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to leave it for, sick the question in the diary left for you is you've got one phone call left to your children what do you say to them oh probably uh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh no on a real note it would be, I know it's cliche, but it would be that I love you, you know, and I think that's, I didn't tell my dad that before he left.

[443] And we didn't, you know, we didn't have those conversations and he didn't tell me that, not in, not using those words.

[444] And I'm assuming that this last conversation would probably be the last time that I see them.

[445] So I'd want them to know that um yeah actually yes sir i can't wait i can't wait for to see this last season um i share that excitement with everybody else that's listening right now and thank you for creating a piece of art over the years and fighting for that piece of art with um to hope to keep its integrity and to keep the resonance that it's had with everybody that's consumed it um even when it's easier not to and i can i understanding you i understand why that fight was so important for you and i'm exceptionally excited because of your experiences and because of that um that take on your art form that you've developed over the last two three decades to watch your at your directing career continue to play out i know you're working on some incredible things at the moment i know you've been working very very hard on those things um that's a conversation for another time but if it's anything like a lot of the art you've created in your life and it has that perspective that integrity and that personality i think it's going to have equal impact on the world that top boy and all of the other projects you've been involved in over the last two and a half decades have had on people.

[446] That is a really, really special thing.

[447] And as I say, I couldn't, it couldn't have happened to a more deserving individual, in my opinion.

[448] I think it's weird to have this feeling that I'm so happy you've had this in your life.

[449] And I'm so excited to see what plays out for you.

[450] I know it's going to be something special because although you talk about talent, I'm not quite convinced that it's just a god -given talent alone i think there's a ton of hard work dedication perfectionism love craft dedication kindness people skills i think there's a lot of perspective i think there's a lot of hardship there's a lot of rebounding there's a lot of rejection that you've had to overcome to get here um and that's a very um a very admirable thing that we can all be inspired by and that we are so thank you ashley thank you for taking the time and thank you for your generosity thank you man thank you for having me being so good to be here I'm