World’s No.1 Matchmaker: How To FIND And KEEP Real Love!: Paul Brunson

[0] I think most of us would do the first date completely wrong.

[1] We set ourselves up to fail.

[2] And the reason why is because...

[3] It's so true.

[4] I can't believe how true this is.

[5] Paul Brunson.

[6] The world's most influential matchmaker.

[7] He's got a hit show on Oprah's Network.

[8] Married at first out you pay.

[9] This you may never have heard before.

[10] My expertise is relationship science.

[11] And the beauty of science is that if you can change the formula, You change the results.

[12] So if you are someone who is in a relationship and you're unsure how to communicate, there's certain things that you could change.

[13] Tell me what those are.

[14] It seems so simple, but it literally changed my marriage.

[15] So we're terrible when it comes to making any type of rational decision around our love life.

[16] If you can't have emotional intimacy, you just simply can't have a relationship.

[17] You have acquaintances.

[18] You have situationships, but you don't have relationships.

[19] Let's talk about sex.

[20] Can you be physically attracted to somebody, but then not have sexual attraction?

[21] There are different languages, sexual languages.

[22] You have to understand how your partner, the language that they speak sex in.

[23] Men, we need to know this.

[24] 70 to 80 % of women need...

[25] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler, and this is the diary of.

[26] of a CEO.

[27] I hope nobody's listening.

[28] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[29] Give me your context.

[30] What do I need to know about you from your earliest years, from those first sort of 15, 16 years of your life?

[31] That would give me the context I need to understand the person you are today.

[32] So I was born in Jamaica, Queens.

[33] You know, and I claim to fame is Curtis Jackson 50 cent, right?

[34] Being shot nine times.

[35] in our neighborhood.

[36] That's our claim to fame.

[37] But everyone was like, okay, I get it.

[38] That's where it was.

[39] So grew up there.

[40] It was a heavy Caribbean, Jamaican, first and second generation neighborhood.

[41] But my father was, who was the first in his family to go to college, he focused in computer science.

[42] Yeah.

[43] And so he, you know, hustled and my mother hustled.

[44] And we were able to buy a home in Long Island.

[45] And that was the, like, you've made it.

[46] You've moved out the city and you've moved to Long Island.

[47] We were the first black family to live in this neighborhood.

[48] The first, I'm talking about a hundred homes.

[49] We're the first black family.

[50] Because of that, when I moved to that neighborhood, I was the underdog.

[51] I was the outsider.

[52] And I was treated as such.

[53] I remember being on the bus and just like smashed up against the the glass punched kicked you know it's one of these where i mean for no reason like for no reason other than the color of my skin um so that was that was growing up and how was that manifested in your adult life i'm a fighter you know i think that's really what i you know it's interesting i even i notice when i walk into a room i seek out the under and I try to champion them.

[54] So if I walk into a room, I'll look for the person who's hugging the wall, the person who's in the corner by themselves, and I will intentionally walk over to them, you know, try to befriend them.

[55] So this has been this through line of my life is trying to champion people who I feel were the ones who were, you know, like me, you know, smashed up against the bus window.

[56] And you eventually went off to university, college.

[57] Yes.

[58] What career did you go into?

[59] immediately after college investment banking okay interesting ended up hating it for the passion explain oh my god i mean talk about eat you up spit you out culture you know like here's the best here here here's how here's how i reminisce about investment banking my boss at the time was 33 years old right uh multi millionaire he was considered one of the top.

[60] So the division I was in was banks.

[61] We covered banks.

[62] So he was one of the top investment bankers, you know, covering banks.

[63] But top investment banker, right?

[64] His wife was pregnant at the time that we were working on a huge deal.

[65] It was the, at that time, it was the largest secondary offering in the history, right, of history.

[66] But so it's a major deal.

[67] His wife is pregnant first child she's starting to give birth he decides to come into work and he sends her to the hospital and he comes into work and i'll never forget it he's he's walking down the aisle i'm like in a cubicle he's got the office in front of me he's walking down the aisle and people are staying up like this like yeah this is that's right you come here this is the most important thing yeah she let her go off and do that right that was the moment where i said this place is this is like this is crazy you know it's crazy it's ridiculous and so that was when i started thinking okay i need to i need to get out of here and then you went and worked for enver no i didn't i didn't go to enver yet oh okay i went off to i did what everybody does i went to business school and so went to business school while i was so while i was at business school, I met Enver Eugel.

[68] Didn't start working for him, but I met him.

[69] So he at that time, multimillionaire, but he owned a massive company in Turkey.

[70] He was trying to extend his business in the United States.

[71] And when I met him, it was a professional relationship.

[72] And it was more so, hey, Paul, whenever I come to the United States, I'd love for you to help me to schedule meetings or help for you'd help me to get booked into people because I lived in Washington, D .C. at the time, and Capitol Hill was there, lots of senators and Congress people.

[73] And so it was easy for me to pick up the phone, work the network, to get a meeting with, it could be Senator Hillary Clinton.

[74] And so I was helping him at the time.

[75] Then I came up with a concept to start a nonprofit organization.

[76] And I needed to raise funding or I wanted to raise funding for it.

[77] And I I decided that I would ask Enver to help me on this.

[78] So that's when I started working for Enver Ujel.

[79] How old are you at that age?

[80] I don't know.

[81] I'm 30.

[82] I'm in the 30 zone.

[83] In your early 30s, you start your matchmaking company.

[84] What was it about matchmaking that just connected with you inside and made you?

[85] Because in order to be, to get obsessed with anything to go and study it, to then pursue it for all these years, it has to be connecting with you because of your experiences, your biases, you're in a very particular way because I'm somewhat interested in it, but I wouldn't dedicate my, I wouldn't dedicate that kind of attention to it.

[86] So what was it about you that resonated so much about bringing people together in such a way?

[87] Fair.

[88] You know, thinking about this for the first time is I'm actually connecting it to what you asked me with regard to how I grew up.

[89] right because to me nearly every person who comes to a matchmaker because keep in mind you're probably spending 10 to 20 ,000 dollars you know for for matchmaking services you're probably allocating six to 12 months of your life to walk through that process it is it's a lot right and to me the kernel of every client is there's there's a there's a there's a feeling of hopelessness there's a feeling of this is my last shot you know there's a feeling of i am alone you know in in this and that's where i resonated you know i was talk about i you know i don't know in business you know we talk about this fifth why right the why that makes you cry the why that when you're thinking about a customer what are they thinking about at night what's keeping them up right at night and if you as an entrepreneur or a business owner if you can help to solve that problem that's keeping them up at night the why that's making them cry well that's that's the secret sauce but the key is that you have to be passionate about that right because it's going to take you a lot of you know innovations and a lot of time a lot of energy to figure out what the formula is but for me that that was what it was it was there was like this level of of like, I'm giving up hope.

[90] You know, I'm just, I'm just done.

[91] And also, it was for a particular avatar, which I think is also important for a particular customer.

[92] So, you know, what I've always learned in business is that you can't serve everyone, right?

[93] So it's important to find a particular customer, a specific demographic, a customer avatar, right?

[94] And look for the deepest pain point within that particular avatar.

[95] Now, when I got into the matchmaking space, I was the first, or what the Matchmaking Institute says, I was the first full -time black matchmaker in the United States, okay?

[96] In matchmaking, what a lot of people don't like to talk about what was happening is there was significant segregation happening in the matchmaking space.

[97] And what was happening is that, in particular, black women were not being serviced by matchmakers for a variety of reasons, but they were not being serviced at all.

[98] So my first customer, my first avatar, were black women, in particular in the, we call it the DMV, D .C., Maryland, Virginia area.

[99] And so there was a very particular pain point within the avatar, right?

[100] And so it was hopelessness, but it wasn't just hopelessness.

[101] Now that I've described, you know, the avatar, right?

[102] This is someone who most likely she's highly educated.

[103] She's making great money.

[104] She has a child, you know.

[105] She is incredible match for someone.

[106] So she became my first, she became my first client.

[107] And I was passionate.

[108] You know why?

[109] Because she was my sister -in -law.

[110] She was my auntie.

[111] You know, she was my cousin.

[112] I know her.

[113] I live with her.

[114] I've grown up with her.

[115] That was why I was so, you know, so passionate about her.

[116] What is the relationship your parents had?

[117] And how has that influenced your work?

[118] Yeah, great, great one.

[119] They have had an incredibly loving relationship, you know, and not just my parents, but my grandparents.

[120] It's no surprise, is it?

[121] Because then you've had this, you know, staggering, long relationship with just.

[122] Jill, it's funny how that, you know, those generational cycles play out over and over again, right?

[123] Yeah.

[124] And that's it.

[125] That's it.

[126] It's like, let's break the cycle.

[127] You know, we can break the cycle.

[128] That was, that was part of it playing out.

[129] You know, with my wife Jill, her parents, incredibly strong, right?

[130] Her grandparents on both sides, incredibly strong, incredibly loving.

[131] It's an interesting question for anybody listening to this now, which is like, how much does your relationship currently, if you're in one, mirror that of your parents?

[132] And I think about, you know, even in my team here, the people that have the best relationships in my team, their parents have the best relationships.

[133] And their partner's parents have the best relationships.

[134] Like just that solid best friend type vibes, multi -decade best friend vibes in their parents.

[135] Yes.

[136] It's interesting.

[137] Yeah.

[138] And so I agree.

[139] I think if we did that, we did a, you know, longitudinal study around that, we would find that to be precise.

[140] But part of what I think is driving it is, I mean, you could go back and look at attachment styles, but I think largely what's driving that is, is seeing what love looks like modeled before you, right?

[141] And know that it's not always what we consider to be lovey -dovey.

[142] It can be contentious.

[143] A matter of fact, disagreements and arguments are important, are critical, right?

[144] Because you need to almost break down the relationship in order to gain the skills to bring it back up, right?

[145] And that's what makes it stronger.

[146] And so I think the modeling is key.

[147] It's so true.

[148] So true.

[149] And it took me until I was 25 years old to figure this out, that modeling point, that the first, model you've been given of love is your parents.

[150] So you believe that to be the truth about any person you then meet in your lives.

[151] And so I can remember like almost in high definition in my mind, this image of looking over at my dad sat on the sofa and my mom just screaming at him and thinking, I'd fucking hate to be this guy.

[152] And then I go into life and I just avoid avoid every, I'm obsessed about having control.

[153] Yes.

[154] I've heard you talk about this before.

[155] Yes, yeah.

[156] I'm going to say yes.

[157] I mean, this is, that is prototype avoidant.

[158] Yeah, that's me. Attachment style.

[159] Yeah.

[160] Right.

[161] And what's, was so interesting to me about attachment style, which by the way, it's Levine, Dr. Levine wrote a phenomenal book called Attached.

[162] Right on this.

[163] And I recommend for everyone is, you know, there are primarily three categories of attachment.

[164] You have secure, you have anxious, and then you have avoidant, right?

[165] And when you think about this, it's precisely what you just said, Stephen, is that when you think of how you first saw love and you saw it modeled and you saw it relate to you, right?

[166] Was it one of which was secure in that you felt like you would be, you know, if you were hurt, you could go to a place for safety, right?

[167] You would be caressed, right?

[168] You'd be cared for, you know, that's secure.

[169] But then you move to the avoidant, right, where it was you almost having to self -soothe yourself, right, which then pushes you away from wanting to have anything to do with that.

[170] And you become, you know what's interesting?

[171] The top, and this is just me guessing and observing, the top entrepreneurs are avoidance.

[172] because they've had to develop the skills to self -sustain themselves, right?

[173] They've had to rely on themselves.

[174] People who are avoiding don't trust easily, but you trust yourself, right?

[175] So you look at that and you say, oh, my God, like this came from me as a child.

[176] Like, it's incredible.

[177] And then with the anxious, the anxious is really interesting because the anxious was typically a lot of parents, like my situation where your parents worked all the time.

[178] So when they were home, they would be there to give you the love, but they couldn't be home all the time because they had to be, they had to work.

[179] So then you had to subsue with a little bit.

[180] So then you became anxious about their love.

[181] Needy?

[182] Needy.

[183] And this is the person who's like texting all the time.

[184] I know in the past, you must have had the, the girlfriend who was like, Stephen, where are you, Stephen, where are you?

[185] No comment.

[186] Stephen, where are you, where are you?

[187] Right.

[188] All of that shows up as adults, right?

[189] And also this is, but I guess long story short is to the point of when we've recognized that, this is why being in a relationship with someone who is secure is so important because you can shift your style as an adult.

[190] You can be avoidant, be in a relationship with someone who's secure and adapt to a secure attachment.

[191] Do you notice that?

[192] Do you notice that people who are avoidant tend to go for people that are more secure?

[193] No, they go for the anxious.

[194] Interesting.

[195] Right, yeah, yeah.

[196] So they go for needy people.

[197] Right, because, because, yeah, because, I mean, becomes a bit of a, you know, they're chasing them and they're, because, you know, you think about this.

[198] If you're avoiding, you're pretty much self -sustained, right?

[199] But if someone is anxious, they're aggressively courting you, right?

[200] So they're pushing to be in your space, right?

[201] So the secure, unfortunately, becomes boring for so many people, safe, vanilla.

[202] It's so true.

[203] I can't believe how true this is.

[204] You know?

[205] But secure is where it's at, you know, is where it's at.

[206] You want two secure people.

[207] You want a secure in anyone else.

[208] a strong secure could help bring anyone over to but also you know an avoidant and anxious can also you know work it's ultimately to me it's it's about that effort is there at such a way to if I'm an avoidant for example or I'm an anxious is there work I can do myself to become a secure without having to meet a secure and have them bring me over yes absolutely one of the top things someone who is avoiding can work on is their emotional intimacy.

[209] And that begins with simply recognizing their emotions, your emotions, and articulating them.

[210] It's, it seems, it actually seems easy, but it's incredibly challenging.

[211] So uncomfortable.

[212] So uncomfortable.

[213] Especially for a man. Yes.

[214] So for example, I could say, Stephen, how do you, truly, how do you feel right now in this moment?

[215] now in this moment very inspired and very keen to learn okay more but very yeah okay well i mean you did that effortlessly right but but but now the next challenge would be okay well do that with your you know with your romantic partner yeah right and do it in spaces where you feel vulnerable yeah it becomes very very challenging to say how you feel how someone makes you feel it makes perfect sense because is there was a void in my childhood of parenting, which I've always said has made me an entrepreneur.

[216] But in that void as well, there's a void of like learning affection.

[217] So I, you know, I still call my parents by their first names.

[218] I've never called the mum and dad.

[219] I, we weren't like, there was no like, I love you or like hugging or stuff like that, especially in my childhood.

[220] So learning later in life to them to be emotional and to express how I'm feeling and to, if your girlfriend says, what's wrong?

[221] or, you know, how do you feel about this?

[222] I would, you know, I'd often just lie about how I was feeling just for keep things nice and calm.

[223] Right.

[224] But I definitely, you know, it's definitely something I've had to learn.

[225] Right.

[226] But I can see that, so, I mean, you're a life learner.

[227] Like, you're a student of life.

[228] So I can see that you have, not even begun.

[229] You've done the work, right?

[230] But for so many avoidance.

[231] I'd say begun.

[232] Begun, okay.

[233] But for so many avoidance, that work has not yet begun.

[234] And being able to identify the emotion, right?

[235] And the feeling too, because, you know, and even distinguish between the emotion and the feeling, right?

[236] But to be able to distinguish that and then to be able to articulate that is so incredibly important because without that, you cannot have the emotional intimacy.

[237] And if you can't have emotional intimacy, you just simply can't have a relationship.

[238] You just can't.

[239] You have acquaintances.

[240] you know you have co -workers you know um you have uh situationships you know but you don't have relationships that is a amazing sound bite please cut that into a real for tictock team listening um so there's gender differences here as well because of of my friends both women and men i know for a fact that my male friends usually just push for like an easy life yeah they just want, you know, if their partner is expressing emotional feelings or is expressing their emotions towards them, most of my male friends will see that as an attack, you know?

[241] And like, they just don't want to go there.

[242] It's, it's this energy that men just don't like.

[243] So I was watching this funny Twitter video before I came down here.

[244] And it's this woman, she's cooked dinner for her husband and she's proving that men just won't tell you the truth.

[245] She puts, loads of salt in it to make it taste awful.

[246] And she walks into the front room while he's watching the game.

[247] And she goes, try this, hon. Tell me what you think.

[248] And you see his face just whirmed and it's fucking disgusting.

[249] And he goes, yeah, good.

[250] And for me, it's summed up, man. It's like we just want to avoid the heat.

[251] Literally.

[252] So I have a theory on this, right?

[253] So I'm testing this one out, right?

[254] But I call it the feedback loop theory.

[255] So my wife was in HR before she joined me in the matchmaking.

[256] space and one of the things that they would do in their company she worked in this law firm is that they would uh you know extensive feedback during the review period extensive feedback so you know how was your year how did you perform all of these these KPIs right and that feedback would translate into higher performance i mean just bottom line and what i've noticed with women typically with women is that whenever there's a romantic experience, that romantic experience is then shared with like 10 of their friends.

[257] You know, it's like go out on a date.

[258] The WhatsApp group knows everything that's happening on the date.

[259] And then there's a debrief of the date.

[260] There's an analysis of the date.

[261] Here's what he did.

[262] Here's what I wore.

[263] Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[264] This happens for three days.

[265] Constant feedback.

[266] And that feedback ends up making women.

[267] I think, on average, better daters, right?

[268] Better equipped to deal and manage in relationships.

[269] Now, Stephen, when you were single, tell me this.

[270] If you were going on a date, right, who did you talk to about the date?

[271] Nobody.

[272] See, I just go.

[273] Yeah.

[274] It's all in your head.

[275] It's like, okay.

[276] I might tell one of my friends, I might say, oh, I saw this person the other night, you know, when I was single.

[277] I would have gone, you know, I saw Ruby like three days ago and that was, it was fun, yeah.

[278] Yeah, he was like, all right, cool.

[279] Yeah, and that's it.

[280] And that's it.

[281] There's no feedback.

[282] And think about this.

[283] Think about not that just happening on one date, but that happening month after month, year after year, 10, 15 years of no feedback.

[284] We're all in our head.

[285] We have no idea, like, how to perform, how to up our performance.

[286] And that impacts what happens.

[287] when we eventually get into the relationship.

[288] So I think the feedback loop, there's really something to it.

[289] And I've noticed it's primarily a gender difference.

[290] So are you saying also that because women have a community where they're discussing stuff, they're discussing feelings and what happened and da -da -da -da -da -da.

[291] They try and bring that same energy to a man who's just not used to it.

[292] And he goes, fucking how, like, I don't know.

[293] You know what I mean?

[294] And he's just like trying to avoid going there because he's never really had to go there before.

[295] Never had to.

[296] never had to.

[297] When you dig into the data, and this is what I love about love, like in particular, I always say that my expertise is relationship science, right?

[298] I like to look at the science of love and look at how that impacts how we show up and why we show up.

[299] And the beauty of science is that if you can change the formula, not necessarily a formula, if you change the equation, right, you change the result.

[300] And that's the beautiful.

[301] thing.

[302] So if you are someone who is in a relationship and you're unsure how to communicate, there's certain things that you could change to make the communication stronger and make the relationship better.

[303] Tell me what those are.

[304] Oh my God.

[305] There's so many.

[306] What are the like foundational things that have worked for you and your clients in terms of like communication, conflict resolution?

[307] Okay, great, great question.

[308] Okay, so a couple things.

[309] And even with, not only with my clients, but but with my wife, you know.

[310] So this seems so basic.

[311] This seems so basic.

[312] I think it's talked about, but not even talked about enough is Gary Chapman's five love languages.

[313] It seems so simple, but it literally changed my marriage.

[314] So by, you know, there's something called the five -year itch and the seven -year itch, typically in marriages, not committed relationships, but marriages, where you literally see separation rates and divorce rates increase at that five - and seven -year mark.

[315] Right.

[316] You also see it happen when they become, when marriages become, you become empty nesters.

[317] Your, you know, kids go off to school.

[318] But right around that five and seven year mark, I was sleeping on the couch at my house.

[319] Like it was not good, you know, in our household.

[320] And this was so small, but so significant is I bought Dr. Gary Chapman's five love languages, right?

[321] Which outlines, right?

[322] five ways that we recognize and see love.

[323] But here was the power of it.

[324] The power of it was that my wife, I thought she was spoiled because all she wanted was gifts.

[325] She was like, buy me this, buy me that.

[326] It's my birthday, buy me this.

[327] It's Christmas, buy me this.

[328] It's Monday, buy me this, right?

[329] It was by me, buy me, my, right?

[330] And I thought to myself, Jesus, she's spoiled.

[331] Like, this is crazy.

[332] So what do I do?

[333] Stephen, I bet you would do the same thing.

[334] You know what I did?

[335] I said, I'm not going to buy you anything, you know, because you're spoiled.

[336] I'm going to change this behavior.

[337] You know, I'm not going to buy you a thing.

[338] So what happens when it's her birthday, it's Christmas, it's the anniversary, it's Monday, and I'm not buying her anything?

[339] Oh, man, like hell, it becomes hell.

[340] But it was Dr. Gary Chapman's book that helped me understand that the way that my wife grew up, the way that she saw love through her parents were through gifts.

[341] Her father spoiled her to death, right?

[342] And her father loved her and showed his love, showered his love through gift, through gift giving.

[343] So she as a little girl is growing up thinking, okay, you know, I get the doll, I get this, I get this, right?

[344] This is love, this is love, this is love.

[345] Her love language is legitimately gifts.

[346] I had to understand that fundamentally to understand that this is how she will see that I love her.

[347] It's not just simply through maybe what's, you know, acts of service, which is my love language.

[348] Right?

[349] Do something on my behalf.

[350] Yeah.

[351] Right?

[352] So I would do something on her behalf, right?

[353] But no, it was, it's gifts.

[354] And then for her to know, okay, for me, it's acts of service.

[355] So if she, you know, she was big on gifts, giving me gifts.

[356] And I was like, I don't, I don't resonate with this.

[357] You know, I don't, I don't get this.

[358] And so the understanding, truly understanding your partner's love language and then giving them love in that language is a game changer.

[359] And a quick way to determine someone's love language is just observe how they show love to the people they love, right?

[360] What do they do?

[361] Right?

[362] That's a quick way.

[363] So, so love language is game changer.

[364] Right.

[365] So, so that's one.

[366] Secondly is to, I think to understand that you need to argue, right?

[367] But great relationships are bids.

[368] You're putting in bids.

[369] It's a constant tennis match.

[370] That's a great relationship, constant tennis match.

[371] So what's, that means is that you are showing through your action, through your love language, through your words, et cetera, but you're showing that you love your partner and you're doing that consistently over and over and over and over and over again.

[372] And what your partner is going to be doing is they're going to hit that ball back to you.

[373] And you're going to hit that ball back to them, but you have to remember this one thing.

[374] Sometimes you have to hit the ball five times over, right, the net before they return.

[375] the ball to you.

[376] And ultimately, what that means is that you have to consistently remind your partner.

[377] So you could be, I'm 21 years into my marriage.

[378] People think, all right, you're 21, you're good.

[379] You don't have to do anything now, right?

[380] You're smooth sailing.

[381] No, when I get home today, I am still showing up, recognizing that I have to continually put those bids in.

[382] You know, I always say it's like Janet Jackson, whatever you've done for me lately, that's truly what a relationship is, is that It's constantly, it's this constant, constant, right?

[383] And then part of that constant too, and maybe this is just a third concept, super simple, but intentional time, intentional time.

[384] So what I find really interesting is you look at how much time we spend with our partners or our spouse.

[385] It's one to two hours a day.

[386] On average, on average, the average married couple spends one to two hours per day.

[387] so you think about that you're probably spending more time with the bus driver than you are with with your spouse and then in the one to two hours what are you actually doing it's like ships passing in the night you know no real conversation one's watching tv in this side one's on the computer over here no real communication and what ends up happening is you're not able to exchange ideas you're not able to talk about you know dreams you're not able to talk about hopes, you're not able to talk about your feelings, you know, you're not able to connect intentional time spent.

[388] I always say that, you know, effort always equals interest, but whatever is important to you in life, you have to be intentional about spending time on it, you know, and that includes the relationship.

[389] That includes it.

[390] And so intentional time, so that may mean, okay, every Friday we're having dinner together, or every, night we're having dinner in my household it's every night we have dinner together as a family i help i try to rearrange my schedule so that i'm at home with my family having dinner and if i get home too late to have dinner with my boys my wife and i are having dinner at 11 p .m 12 midnight but we are communing together right this is very important uh you know we talk about you know weekly dates but the whole bottom line is spending time.

[391] This Saturday, my wife and I, we have a date, right?

[392] Yeah, 21 years into our marriage, still planning dates, still excited about the dates.

[393] It's intentional time spent.

[394] Intentional time spent.

[395] So, I mean, there's so many concepts, but I would say that if you just do those, if you just think about those basics, love language, right, understanding that relationships are always a bid, It's always a bid back and forth, always.

[396] And sometimes you have to bid five, six times before you get the ball back, right?

[397] But it's always bid.

[398] And then it's intentional time spent.

[399] You, you know, you typically grow together opposed to growing apart.

[400] You're on the couch five years in, right?

[401] Yes.

[402] The only way off that couch, with all of those things said, is like communication.

[403] You have to, at some point, you're going to have to have a tough conversation about something.

[404] Yes.

[405] Um, in business and life and in everything, um, what I've noticed is most of the issues I have in my life, uh, have become big issues because I didn't have an honest conversation about something sooner when I knew it was a problem.

[406] So I deferred it.

[407] I knocked it back, whatever.

[408] Um, the art of having a good, healthy conversation with someone, with a partner, with someone you love, when there's a lot of emotion and tension is something that I don't think we've talked about enough in, in society.

[409] specifically men really struggle, I think, with that.

[410] How does one have a good conflict resolution -orientated conversation without, you know, fucking screaming or running out or whatever, or blame, you know.

[411] Yeah, no, I hear you.

[412] And I agree.

[413] And I hear this term passed around a lot, and I agree with it, is that the more challenging conversations you have in life, the higher quality your life is.

[414] because most of us try to run away, as you're saying, right?

[415] So I think there are a couple things that we could do.

[416] One is sometimes you won't be equipped to have that conversation or your partner won't be equipped to have that conversation.

[417] That's the importance of having a third party, right?

[418] This is the reason why, you know, therapy is so incredibly important.

[419] And I really try to preach this because I feel like the UK is a little bit behind the U .S., you know, when it comes to that is therapy is sexy.

[420] you know having a counselor is sexy you know what i mean so having a third party a professional one that's very important secondly is is uh is context picking the right moments to have these challenging conversations picking the right environments to have these conversations are incredibly important right you could you could you could we could decide that we can have this argument in the kitchen when we know that the boys have to be in bed in five minutes and I know it's been a long day for you and I haven't slept last night.

[421] We can have this conversation right now if you want to.

[422] It's probably not going to go in the direction we wanted to or we could wait and hold on until Saturday when we're both taking that walk back from dropping the boys off at their at their class and we have 10 minutes to sit in the park and talk about this.

[423] So to have the right context is incredibly incredibly important.

[424] third i think if i'm given top three is to actually set rules and boundaries and this does not happen enough in relationships and i always say that if you don't set boundaries you will take even well -intentioned partners and turn them into bullies if you don't set your boundaries so you have to set your boundaries from the beginning of the relationship but in particular when you're having these tough conversations and boundaries could be as simple as we're going to focus on one topic when you're having a discussion the discussion should be about the topic at hand right but setting what those boundaries are ahead of time because typically what ends up happening is fights become unfair right it's healthy to fight but it's unhealthy to fight in an unfair manner so I think those are those are three three techniques that I know that, you know, Jill and myself that we use when we are having our discussions.

[425] At some point, you started a YouTube channel and Oprah got in touch.

[426] Yes.

[427] That's crazy.

[428] It's crazy.

[429] It's crazy.

[430] But it is, you know, so when I decided to launch my matchmaking business after I had spent a year prepping.

[431] I didn't know how to launch it.

[432] And it was my wife and my best friend at the time who said, you know, you should focus on the marketing aspect of this.

[433] You should start a YouTube channel.

[434] Now, this is 2009.

[435] So like, early.

[436] Were you bored in 2009?

[437] Just about.

[438] So, you know, so 2009.

[439] So YouTube is isn't a big.

[440] It's a thing.

[441] It's not as big a thing as it is right now.

[442] It's not known as the go -to place to market your new company.

[443] But I decided to create a YouTube series called the Modern Day Matchmaker.

[444] And what I decided is I would pump all of my money into this thing.

[445] And I mean, when I look around the studio, this is an impressive studio.

[446] I had like one out of 10 of these cameras.

[447] I had like one camera, you know, but it was me spending a thing.

[448] thousand to four thousand dollars per production minute right so we had a team yeah i know it's crazy it's ridiculous but the reason why is because i thought i had a unique point of view and if i can just push that out into the marketplace i could distinguish myself from the competitors and i would put out this video every week man and nobody will watch it nobody and i say this and this is not even a joke is every week it would get like 11 or 12 views this video.

[449] And my mother was watching nine of those, you know.

[450] And so it was no one was watching this thing.

[451] But I thought this was a way for me to, you know, for me to at least create my brand within the space.

[452] Now it turns out that one of those 11 views was Oprah.

[453] but people say like okay how did Oprah find you you know the reason why Oprah was able to find me is because a year prior I was doing pro bono matchmaking services free work free work one of my clients and I had no idea but one of my clients was a writer for O magazine year later she's on Oprah's jet, Oprah says, I have a concept for a new TV show.

[454] I'm looking for a fresh voice.

[455] My client in the jet says, have you heard of Paul Brunson?

[456] Oprah says, no, but let me see.

[457] YouTube search.

[458] Paul Brunson, save, let me start watching.

[459] So Oprah was watching this YouTube series.

[460] And, you know, when I always look at it, I say, gosh, to me, it is a powerful story.

[461] because she ends up offering me a job to co -host a television show with her on her brand new network off of this YouTube series that no one was watching but Oprah, my mother, and like two other people.

[462] And I say it's a powerful story about quality over quantity.

[463] You know, I think we live in a day and age where, you know, vanity metrics in particular are everything.

[464] You know, it's like I need to have this number of followers.

[465] where's this number of views.

[466] And I get it to a certain extent, it is important when you're monetizing.

[467] But ultimately, the who that's watching is more important.

[468] And it was through that, you know, that YouTube series that I got the job.

[469] And working with Oprah changed my life.

[470] There's this thing called like lagging metrics in KPIs and business and analytics where they're metrics that show up later, once you've done the input, once you've done the work.

[471] And I was thinking about that as you were speaking because you were doing focusing on quality now.

[472] The lagging metric was that you were going to become on Oprah Winfrey's show and she was going to watch.

[473] But you were just planting the seeds of quality.

[474] And like, I'm sure that if you'd carried on doing that channel for 15 years, it would have probably had 15 million subscribers.

[475] But it's fun.

[476] I always think about it like seeds.

[477] even with what we've done here, if I showed you the graph of the growth of the Dyer of a CEO, it's literally, this is no exaggeration.

[478] I posted on my Twitter the day.

[479] It's two years flat.

[480] Right.

[481] Now, what happens next is it goes like a vertical line -up.

[482] Wow.

[483] And you never know when or how or whatever, but those first two years when it was flat, was when all of those seeds were being planted.

[484] And really where you're learning.

[485] your craft.

[486] And I think so many people, it's important for so many people because the big metrics always lag behind.

[487] And things go fast, things go slow then fast.

[488] Yes.

[489] And we sometimes can get super impatient about, why isn't Oprah called me yet?

[490] Or why don't I have a big podcast or 15 million download?

[491] Why don't I have that yet?

[492] But you're doing the work now to have that in that quiet period.

[493] And I loved what you said there about like the quality.

[494] Like if you just focus on quality, which is something you know you can control, just making whatever you're doing now, like, the best.

[495] Yes.

[496] You have nothing to worry about.

[497] You don't need to worry.

[498] You just need patience.

[499] Yes.

[500] And I love that when I hear that story, because 11 views, and one of them fucking Oprah is just...

[501] It's a mind blow.

[502] It's a mind blow.

[503] And I think to even add to what you're saying is, I think that that's the key of having the passion.

[504] Because that's, I mean, that's the reason why...

[505] Yeah, you keep on keeping on.

[506] on keeping on.

[507] Because otherwise, the first hurdle you hit, you give up, right?

[508] And you should, because 11 days, he's fucking stupid.

[509] Go get a job, Paul.

[510] Do you know what my father was saying?

[511] Can you imagine?

[512] He was like, what are you doing?

[513] You just came from investment banking.

[514] Like, I mean, honestly, Stephen, the amount of people who thought I was crazy, like commit this guy, he left investment banking and he's doing YouTube videos out of his bedroom.

[515] And, And he's not paying for his mortgage, right?

[516] His wife, my wife, liquidated her retirement fund.

[517] So we had burned through our money.

[518] She liquidates her retirement fund.

[519] And we start using that as capital for the business.

[520] And the capital is being used for a YouTube series at 11 people are watching.

[521] Like people thought I was nuts.

[522] That's it.

[523] I think Steve Jobs said it.

[524] He said, you know, there's going to become a day when you're doing what you're doing where any sane person would give up and they should give up but faced with the facts and numbers that you'll see before you but those that keep going are those that are doing it for that really deep internal reason and like one of the things I know for sure is that no matter what business you start unless you're very very lucky exceptionally lucky you're going to have those days and there's not going to be one of them it's going to be for most people a week, months, sometimes multiple years where everything is saying you're an idiot You should stop.

[525] And the only way you grace those hurdles is because sometimes because you don't have a plan B, that's a very good way to just keep on keeping on.

[526] But because it's a challenge that you must pursue, regardless of remuneration or outcome.

[527] It's for you.

[528] And so when I bet on entrepreneurs, especially when I'm investing in them, I'm looking for that.

[529] I'm like, because I don't know always a ton about the industries, but what I do know is a ton about the nature of business.

[530] And I know your hard days are coming.

[531] How will you respond for that three years where every.

[532] Everything is going bad.

[533] Resilience, you know, purpose, all of those sort of key indicators.

[534] So Oprah, you end up working with Oprah on her show.

[535] I guess I got two questions.

[536] First one is, what did you learn from Oprah working so closely with her?

[537] Well, the first thing I learned was not to call her Oprah.

[538] Oh, really?

[539] Shit.

[540] No, no, no, no. No, no. You can call.

[541] If you were working for her, she's Miss Winfrey.

[542] That was the first thing I learned.

[543] and someone corrected me very quickly.

[544] I was like, oh, no, they said, no, Ms. Winfrey, you know.

[545] So that was the first thing.

[546] But she is everything you can imagine that she is times 100.

[547] But also, too, what was interesting to me about Miss Winfrey, about Oprah, is that when she would speak, you never knew if she was talking about the event in the immediate or if she's giving you some, you know, life advice.

[548] Like I remember the very first scene I shot with her was we were in Georgia.

[549] So we shot a show called Loftown USA.

[550] I actually did two shows with Oprah, but the first one was Loftown, USA.

[551] And there's 10 ,000 people in this audience.

[552] They're all there to see Oprah.

[553] There's this massive light kit on stage.

[554] It's big.

[555] It's my first big event ever.

[556] I've never spoken in front of 10 people, like I've never spoken in front of 10 people, you know, 10 ,000 people.

[557] and the director comes over and he was like, all right, Paul, get up on stage, hit your mark and introduce Oprah.

[558] I was thinking, hit my mark.

[559] What is a mark?

[560] Like, what does that mean?

[561] And I'm freaking out, I'm sweating.

[562] And Oprah comes over to me real calm, cool, puts her hand on my shoulder.

[563] She's like, all right, baby, look, it's real simple.

[564] You just walk on that stage, keep walking until you feel the light hit you the brightest.

[565] That's where you stay, right?

[566] And I was thinking to myself, is she talking about the stage?

[567] Is she talking about life?

[568] Like, because that's deep, you know.

[569] But that's how she would speak.

[570] And she was, she's just, just amazing.

[571] Just amazing, amazing, amazing person.

[572] Why is she successful in your assessment?

[573] Why is she Oprah?

[574] What is it about her?

[575] Yeah.

[576] So I studied her.

[577] You know, I'm a people watcher, you know.

[578] And I worked for, so I worked for Oprah after I worked for Enver.

[579] And the similarity to me is that when I started working for Enver, he went from multimillionaire to billionaire.

[580] And that to me was really interesting because of how few billionaires, you know, there are in the world.

[581] So I started to journal what I learned from Enver.

[582] Then I start working for Oprah and I noticed similarities.

[583] And what was wild to me is here are two people who are completely different, you know, one woman, one man, one from the U .S., one Turkey, one married, one not, one Christian, one Muslim.

[584] It's like completely different, but yet they had these same characteristics.

[585] And for Oprah in particular, you know, I noticed we used to go on these road shows for the show to sell the show to advertisers.

[586] And before the road show, she would also, she would always host a dinner.

[587] And these dinners, there would be, you know, 20, 30 people at the dinner.

[588] You'd have all types of athletes and politicians and, you know, she would have her, she would bring her, some of her girls from her school in South Africa would also be at the table.

[589] It would be this popery, this eclectic buffet of various people.

[590] And she would sit and she would conduct these amazing dinners.

[591] And I realized that at these dinners, that, that was.

[592] was her education, was the dinner.

[593] Like she was being educated on what was happening in the world, what's going to happen tomorrow, right?

[594] Because she had a lot of the playmakers at the table.

[595] She was learning about different perspectives.

[596] She was teasing out her own ideas and debating them before she would take them on screen.

[597] She would do this in these intimate dinner settings.

[598] I know as Enver would do the same thing.

[599] Massive dinners, 20, 30 people every night he would have these massive dinners and he would do the same thing they they would they would you know they the concept is never eat alone you know keith farazi has a book called never eat alone which i think is a phenomenal book but it's about the power of socializing and the power that you get from from essentially strengthening your the weak ties in your network interesting i think i'm quite bad at socializing you you you You know.

[600] I was going to say, I'm wondering if there's like a digital equivalent or if like, I'm doing it right now.

[601] Yes.

[602] See, I think this is your extension.

[603] But so, okay, so let's, let's even tease this out a little bit.

[604] So Mark Granovetter, who was a Stanford professor, came up with this theory of weak ties, right?

[605] So if you take Robin Dunbar, right, who has the Dunbar rule, we have roughly 150 friends, essentially, Right.

[606] You could debate it out, but on average, right?

[607] If you think about your 150th friend, the weakest friends, right, the 140th friend, right?

[608] Appointants.

[609] Acquaintance.

[610] Those are where our biggest opportunities in life come.

[611] That's where deals come for our business.

[612] That's where we get introduced to spouses, right?

[613] That's where, you know, tickets to the football game come.

[614] It comes from the weakest ties opposed to our nearest and dearest, which you think about, you think, is that even logical?

[615] But it is.

[616] Our weakest ties drive the most opportunity in our life.

[617] But what do we do, most of us?

[618] We spend all of our time where, with the people closest to us?

[619] but what Oprah and Enver do and what Mark Granovetter talks about with this theory is that the key is to constantly be strengthening our weak ties, investing in those weak ties, adding new people in to our weak ties, kicking other people out.

[620] And that's what they're doing.

[621] Those people at that table, those were not her besties.

[622] Those were not her top five, right?

[623] Those were her 120th, 130th.

[624] And that's where enormous opportunity comes in.

[625] So your matchmaking business becomes, from what I read, one of the largest matchmaking companies in the United States.

[626] Yes.

[627] How long did that take the Paul C. Brunson agency?

[628] Oh, my God.

[629] That was 2008 to 2016, so eight years.

[630] Who of all the avatars of the sort of personas, do you find struggles with being alone the most?

[631] Oh, my, you know what?

[632] Men?

[633] Really?

[634] Yeah.

[635] And I would even say, you know, I mean, you know, there's a whole in -cell movement.

[636] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[637] But, but, and, you know, there's lots of articles now about the rise of the lonely man, you know.

[638] But quite honestly, or at least from exceptional.

[639] Remember, this is 2016, slightly different time, but successful men.

[640] And when I say financially successful, so those who were the investment bankers who 45 years old, retired from investment banking, thinking about their next career, divorced twice, sitting at home alone, right?

[641] That's where the struggle.

[642] That's where it hits you.

[643] you know, when you realize, oh my God, I'm 45, I'm, I've only lived half my life, you know, and here I am alone, and I'm a dick on top of it, right?

[644] So that's, that was, that was the demo that was, there was a struggle.

[645] I got to be honest, when I asked you that question about which group of people would struggle the most with loneliness, my head bounced around.

[646] I thought, I think he's going to say potentially younger men because of this whole in -cell thing where, you know, I don't want to get into the mass shootings and stuff.

[647] But, you know, young men who have, I had a guest on this podcast, Scott Galloway, who talked about how, like, 90 % of the female attention, even when you think about things like Bumble, goes to, like, the top 5, 10 % of men.

[648] Yes.

[649] And then you've got this kind of, the other 40 % do okay.

[650] then you've got the bottom 50 % of men that are totally just not getting that haven't been laid for more than a year.

[651] I think that's what he said.

[652] So I thought maybe you'd go for them.

[653] Then I thought he's going to say 30 plus women because of things like biological clocks and stuff like that.

[654] And this sort of social pressure which I've heard from guests here that some women can feel because of society's expectations and timelines to like to hurry up and be married.

[655] So I thought you would say one of those two groups.

[656] So to hear you say a completely different group was quite surprising.

[657] Yeah, no, I hear you.

[658] And what you just said, that's a logical, it's a logical breakout.

[659] But for me, and this is my experience is dealing with those who are seeking matchmaking, you know, is that the thought is, my time is over.

[660] You know, my, the heyday is gone.

[661] You know, it's kind of like the athlete that, is now retired but still desires to play but realizes that they don't have you know they don't have it anymore but a rich 40 40 year old man yes has got options has you know it a rich for yeah has options but but we're talking about loneliness though okay right loneliness yeah and there's an emptiness that does come over you when you realize you know so a large part of loneliness unfortunately is through comparison because you know this whole idea when we compare we despair we despair upon ourselves so a large part of that is is that you look across your peers and you say look at this now stephen's married you know he's two children you know and I'm yeah I'm out here I have my Ferrari you know but I come home to myself in my big house in my big in my massive house and there's and there's no one here with me and you're astute enough to know that all of those people who you thought were loyal to you were actually not loyal to you but they were just loyal to their circumstances with you and the job and stuff yeah the job right exactly so you so you begin to understand oh my god they're not my friends i i have i have no one and so when you have someone to go to a matchmaker typically they have reached the end of their line when it comes to their hope you know and i think that from my peers who are of that age or i'll say of that vintage right um that it is uh you know it's it's it's incredibly sad it's it's just it's incredibly sad now i think what women do tremendously well or should i say better than men of that age is they understand how to build community.

[662] And that's something that goes back to what we were talking about before.

[663] We talked about, you know, the feedback loop.

[664] We talked about, you know, challenges around being emotionally available, especially at an early age understanding how to build emotional intimacy.

[665] These things all play themselves out not only in our romantic, relationships but in our platonic relationships and what we have to understand is that the the stronger platonic relationships we have the more health we have the longer we live the more money you know we make you know i have so i have a it's my wife's aunt she is 111 years old so she's one of the oldest human beings right now on the planet.

[666] She's 111, incredibly astute.

[667] And when I sit down, I just sit down and I'm just, I absorb everything that she says.

[668] And what I realize is she still has friends.

[669] Like at 111, she's friends that she talks to every day.

[670] You know, that's how you stay alive.

[671] You know, we focus, and I get it, you know, gut health is so important, and low cholesterol is so important.

[672] Yeah, I get it, right?

[673] Exercise is so important, right?

[674] I get all those things are so important.

[675] But I would argue that our social connections are even more important.

[676] And we have to understand how to build the skills.

[677] And you do that before.

[678] Like I always say, the best time to work on your marriage is before you get married.

[679] You know, the best time to work on your friendships before you have your friend, right?

[680] We need to develop these skills early on.

[681] Someone said to me, in fact, yesterday, so it rings so true to what you're saying, that we were talking about resilience, and they said, we used to think of resilience as like being tough yourself, but when we look at different people, the resilience comes from being surrounded by a supportive community.

[682] And that, in fact, makes a person and individual resilient, psychologically resilient.

[683] So when I think about that investment banker, that's 45 years old and alone, he doesn't have a community to help keep his psychological resilience in place.

[684] And there's this thing, there's this really interesting study that I, that I read about.

[685] And this goes back to our sort of ancestral backgrounds where we lived together in these tight -knit communities where if someone, the reason why when people are lonely, they, they live less long and they're more susceptible to illness, disease, and all of these other things, is because scientists have seen that the brain literally goes into a state called self -preservation.

[686] where you're sleep So think about it If you left your tribe And you're out on the I don't know The Serengeti When we were I don't know Tens of thousands of years ago Whatever Everything's Everything changes in terms of You're keeping yourself alive You can't sleep the same So they observe the brain Of someone who's lonely And they struggle with sleep Because we've been programmed To fucking stay up Because the lion might be coming Right And this is really interesting It's all these dots Are connecting in my brain now Because I started learning About this thing called chronotypes where all of us, in a group of 20, 30 people, what you'll find is they all have completely different sleeping rhythms when they get hungry, when they're most creative, when they have the most power.

[687] So I'm an owl.

[688] My partner was the opposite.

[689] And the reason why we have the different chronotypes, again, it goes back to the tribal days where like we didn't all want to sleep at the same time or be alert at the same time.

[690] So we create a community where we're basically one shield of the tribe to survive.

[691] And thinking about that, guy who's 45 years old, he's got the bag, but he's lonely as fuck, he's in self -preservation.

[692] Yeah, that's a great point.

[693] Physiologically, your brain is completely different when you fall into a state of loneliness and because your body's trying to help you survive in this dangerous, potentially dangerous world from the lions out there.

[694] Yeah.

[695] The other thing they noticed was when someone was lonely is their levels of resentment, like the snappiness, the like anger, all of that went up as well.

[696] And that links to what you said about they don't learn the skills.

[697] to form connections because they've got so used to self -defense, like psychological self -defense.

[698] Yeah, yeah.

[699] And I can see that if you're in that state, then you just delve deeper into that as each year ago.

[700] Like you become a crumagion, like you become a recluse.

[701] Yeah, recluse, it's just, it's that, that to me is sad because you have someone who you perceive them to have it all.

[702] Yeah.

[703] But they really have nothing.

[704] And it makes sense because if I was, If I got used to being alone, say I was in the, I don't know, I don't even know where prehistoric humans used to live.

[705] Just in the savannah of Africa.

[706] I always put us there because we're all from Africa.

[707] Right.

[708] And I've got so used to living alone, when I see someone else or a tribe, I'm not going to run off.

[709] I'm like, hey, I'm going to think these fuckers are going to kill me. I'm going to hide.

[710] Yeah, yeah.

[711] Trust goes down.

[712] Yes.

[713] You're apprehensive.

[714] Yes.

[715] You know, all of those things that you actually described early on, that happens.

[716] And that makes perfect sense.

[717] Yeah.

[718] What do you do, though, so in that case of that investment banker, what is step one to get them from that point where they're on the couch, they've got all that money in that mansion, they're alone, how to get them out there and find someone to love them?

[719] Yeah, I'm therapy.

[720] You know, so with matchmaking, one of the things that we introduced, we were pioneers in many ways.

[721] One way is that you would come to us and we wouldn't just simply find dates for you.

[722] You would come to us and then we would assign you to a therapist that you'd work with for three to six months.

[723] before you went on your date, right?

[724] So there's this rehabilitation, you know, that takes place.

[725] And what I always say about therapy, too, is it's not you go to a therapist and you're fixed.

[726] You know, it's you begin to build the muscle and you continue that, right?

[727] So that would be a place to begin.

[728] Secondly, is to begin friendships is where I would go.

[729] So it's not like, okay, how can I place you in a community of 10 people, but how can I find one person that you could begin to build, build a relationship with and start with building rapport, you know, very basic, very, you know, very, very basic, very slow.

[730] But that's how I would begin.

[731] You know, also talking about that particular client, because, you know, it's been some while since I've been matchmaking, but now he's coming back to me. Um, very, you know, what I found with men of that particular vintage, right?

[732] And the dating scene is, is that the, a lot of the, the body movements where it, were, I would call odd, right?

[733] There was a social ineptness, you know, that needed to be worked out.

[734] You know, body, we say more with our body than we do with our words.

[735] And there was a uncomfortableness, you know, that took months to tease out.

[736] And this is especially if you are coming from a career where you are the authority, you are the boss, you're the top dog so you don't have a level of no one is critiquing your body language right but now you move to a social situation where your entire interaction is largely based on your body language it's it's a different situation so it takes months right or it could take years but it takes a while of work before, you know, before we begin the matchmaking.

[737] I'm like slowly developing a theory on awkward huggers.

[738] Do you know what I mean?

[739] Those people that are like, they look away when they come in to hug you.

[740] They kind of give you a tap on the back.

[741] Oh, my gosh.

[742] Can I, okay, can we talk about hugging for a second?

[743] I notice that men do this.

[744] So I have a buddy named Tom Reed Wilson, who's on one of the shows with me. and he taught me something that I now pay close attention to.

[745] So most men, I notice, hug and tap the back.

[746] Get the fuck off me. It was like, right?

[747] But what Tom taught me is the hold and embrace.

[748] And hold an embrace for 30 seconds, which is a long freaking time to embrace someone.

[749] And what he taught me was that in that embrace, to notice how uncomfortable the person is with you.

[750] There's a, okay, you're going to let me go?

[751] This is odd.

[752] Now, this is not to a stranger, but this is someone who you would hug, opposed to the pat is the hug.

[753] That to me is wild.

[754] But here's another wild one that men do.

[755] I learned this from Robin Dunbar also in his book, Friendship is, and if you see two men talking to each other at a party, out on the street, they normally stand at like a 120 degree angle.

[756] Rarely do they stand like this.

[757] Never would they stare like this.

[758] Because going back to us on the Serengeti, right?

[759] This is very confrontational, right?

[760] This means we're about to kill each other, you know?

[761] But like this, we're safe.

[762] You know, if we cheat our bodies like this, 120 degrees.

[763] And if you notice that, men do that all the time.

[764] Now, ladies, walk right up.

[765] Yeah, grab you to the half.

[766] How you doing, girl?

[767] You know, but then it's like, okay, I'm going to talk.

[768] You're right?

[769] Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't hug me. Yeah, yeah.

[770] Yeah, so, but these, see, these are all things that we laugh and we joke about, but it suggests why we could have challenges in our intimate relationships.

[771] One of the things I've been curious about that I have a lot of question marks around is this idea of compatibility and who we're, compatible with?

[772] Are we just, you know, because when we think about dating, we often think about it like we're trying to find this perfect individual that we could kind of draw on a piece of paper that has all of these particular qualities.

[773] We think we know who we're looking for.

[774] Is that true?

[775] What do I need to know about like what truly makes someone compatible?

[776] Because I think once upon a time, for sure, for sure, I would have said, I want my partner to be probably, like me. Right.

[777] I would have said, if I can run a huge business, that we can talk about it in bedtime.

[778] Right.

[779] I don't think that's the case anymore.

[780] Yeah, yeah.

[781] I mean, my, my joke is that most men who came to us, right, they want themselves with a vagina.

[782] That's pretty much, that's pretty much what they're looking for, right?

[783] Um, so, uh, this is a topic that's, you know, I've been studying forever.

[784] And there's a lot of different thoughts around it.

[785] Like, Like if you just think about dating apps, they spend an enormous amount of money trying to perfect the algorithm, to, you know, the matching algorithm.

[786] It's all about that.

[787] And if you look at the success rate, so the percentage of people who are using dating apps and then end up in a committed or committed relationship or marriage and then stay in that for a fixed amount of time, like 10 years, it's like less than 2%.

[788] So you think, okay, so they haven't gotten it right.

[789] There's certain matchmakers that profess to have almost near 100 % success rates.

[790] You say, what do they do?

[791] You know, I have some friends who just say, I can just look at you and tell and you're like, You're like, you know.

[792] But over time, there are certain areas that I firmly believe, firmly believe, determine whether or not you have strong compatibility, right?

[793] So one, we've already talked about attachment style.

[794] Yeah.

[795] I think attachment style, incredibly important.

[796] we've talked about values values incredibly important that's the rulebook to life right another part of it is your ability to communicate so there's this theory called decide versus slide right it's a theory that a lot of you know you have you've people like john cotman's behind this would be you've people in the states who have looked at when you're with your partner can you make a decision to together on anything.

[797] Let's say you're with your partner and you decide, okay, we're going on vacation.

[798] Can you actually make decisions on where you're going without killing each other?

[799] Like, can you decide what you're going to eat without killing each other?

[800] Like, can you actually make collaborative decisions that is deciding versus sliding what a lot of relationships, what a lot of couples do is they say, okay, no, you decide that.

[801] You pick where we're going to go.

[802] I'll decide where we're going to do right it's a slide it's not a collaborative so when you were uh dating when you're engaged it's very important to begin to look at are you making decisions together do you have the ability to make decisions together right deciding versus sliding very important another one that's touchy for a lot of people but it is what it is is you know do you have physical attraction there's there's a massive debate i don't understand why there's still a debate over this is that every bit of science suggests to us that if you have zero i'm talking about zero physical attraction it's going nowhere like it's going nowhere but if you have minimal physical attraction it doesn't mean rip the clothes off energy but if you have minimal physical attraction then that could build because you could be, you know, you could be sapio -sexual where it's the intellect that drives you, but you still have to have a minimal level of physical attraction.

[803] And then what we see is that over time, attraction can definitely grow, but it needs to start somewhere.

[804] So you think about physical attraction, you think about the ability to make decisions, compatibility in values, also attachment style.

[805] these become, I think, the foundational pieces to having a compatible relationship.

[806] But then there's a small little piece that I want to throw out.

[807] And this is some studies that have been done in the U .S. that I find to be fascinating is the marriage rate, you know, in the U .K. as well, it hovers, you know, between, let's say, 35 and 50 percent, depending on who you're talking to.

[808] Or should I say the divorce rate does?

[809] 35 to 50 percent.

[810] So the idea is there that almost half of it.

[811] people who get together end up getting a divorce on average now if you were to just take out couples who have been engaged for two years what do you think that does to the divorce rate so they've been engaged for two years and then they get married uh i think the divorce rate goes down exactly it goes down dramatically some people say it goes down to 20 22 % right chance of getting divorced if you've been if you had a long engagement yes now why would that be the reason why is because you're able to test out all of these theories you're able to see your partner in the most adverse circumstance and see do they still show up as as yeah can they still make a decision with me you know or do they emotionally shut down and and they go away so then when you look at why or the couples where you see divorce being prevalent, it's in couples in one of two categories.

[812] One, they've known each other for a year or less, right?

[813] It's quick.

[814] Or when I say know each other, they've been a committed relationship for a year or less.

[815] Or they've been a committed relationship for like 10 years.

[816] And it's like basically, you know it was an ultimatum.

[817] And that's the reason why they were married.

[818] So the two years of engagement, I think, is incredibly important because it allows you to test out these compatibility metrics.

[819] Two things there.

[820] So the first one I wanted to just jump back to because I found it really interesting.

[821] And it's something I've thought about a lot because of some of my friends in my circle is can you be, because you talked about physical attraction, can you be physically attracted to somebody but then not have sexual attraction?

[822] Ah, okay.

[823] I say this because I remember in a past relationship I was physically attracted to her but sexually I just it just didn't work and that's why that relationship ended she was this beautiful beautiful girl her brain like her mind her intellect she was super smart she was super funny she was just everything I think there's a point before we went to have sex that I thought this is it This is the one.

[824] We then went to have sex, and I've never said this before.

[825] I remember getting up and going over to my phone and like afterwards, like, and saying to one of my best mates, I just going, I don't think I can ever see her again.

[826] See, I wonder how much of this, though, plays into, to foreplay.

[827] Because have you heard about erotic blueprint?

[828] I've heard about it.

[829] I think I heard it on that Goop show.

[830] Okay, yeah, yeah, it was on Goop too.

[831] not the case.

[832] You know, some of us, it's about, you know, contextual, you know, some of us, and this is men and women, right, some of it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, you know, going on.

[833] Kink.

[834] Kink, yeah, some BDSM, you know, going on.

[835] So, so, so that's why I wonder how much of that was about sexual stimulation in that situation versus you not being sexually attracted to the person.

[836] So I wish we could almost go back.

[837] And I could be your sexual surrogate in the room.

[838] Yeah, she's got a baby now.

[839] She's got her husband.

[840] And you're with some of her son.

[841] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[842] But it just, it made me pivot.

[843] But I think you're actually spot on because what I came to learn a couple of years later was that I had this one sort of one dimensional view of what.

[844] sex was.

[845] And then, as I've said on this podcast once before, when I started viewing sex as potentially a different set of languages, I thought, fuck, I'm speaking English.

[846] Maybe she's speaking Spanish.

[847] Yes.

[848] There you go.

[849] You know, and I need to learn a new language in order to have an effective sexual conversation.

[850] Everything changed.

[851] Absolutely.

[852] And it changed for one of my best friends too, because he was having a similar issue with his sex life.

[853] And I said, what if you just saw it as like, your girlfriend speaks a different sex language?

[854] You're speaking one and you're you're like, oh, I'm unsatisfied, because she's speaking Spanish and she's going, I'm unsatisfied.

[855] She wants touch.

[856] She wants the 30 -minute non -penetrative build -up.

[857] Yes.

[858] You want to tie her up.

[859] You want to gag it, gag her and with it and all that kind of kinky BDSM stuff.

[860] Right.

[861] You need to talk.

[862] You need to talk.

[863] And another language.

[864] Another language.

[865] And then also, too, because you drop penetration in there.

[866] This is something that most men, I mean, men, we need to know this, is that the vast majority, 70 to 80 % of women need clitoral stimulation, not just penetrative.

[867] And I, and, see, I mean, this is, see, this is, this is where, um, the feedback, once again, we have no feedback loop, you know, porn, that is our teacher.

[868] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, that's our teacher.

[869] And what we have to understand is, is no, there are, I love what you're saying, there are different languages, sexual languages.

[870] is you have to understand how your partner, the language that they speak sex in, and you have to deliver it.

[871] And that's also why communication is the bedrock of all relationships.

[872] It really is.

[873] Yeah, that's so true.

[874] Thinking about how I could have fixed that situation.

[875] Because are you right?

[876] I totally dismissed it and I didn't do any work.

[877] That was the very much characteristic of my younger self, which was if something, and this is relationship, sex, whatever it was, if something isn't perfect now, go just run don't do any work to like to have the conversation to fix it to have empathy for someone else might have a different opinion or a different bias or a different attachment style if it's not perfect I would dash yeah I'll go in search of perfect which doesn't exist yeah and but this is I mean you know this is all of us this is immaturity yeah and that's the beauty of learning you know as you grow older on that point of seeking perfection um And I asked it a second ago, but we got, we went off on the sex thing.

[878] That sounds weird.

[879] Please don't click that.

[880] Do we know what we're looking for?

[881] Are people good at saying, this is what I want?

[882] Hells no. We are terrible.

[883] We're all biased when it comes to love.

[884] You know, I've done a lot of research around biases.

[885] And when it comes to love, it's like we're wearing the foggy, glasses known to you know known to human beings we're terrible when it comes to making any type of rational decision around our love life you know normally we are looking for ourselves like we literally are or are looking for ourselves it's it's funny to me um when you see someone when you ask someone well what is your type which i hate that phrase but you'll say well what is your type And typically people will describe someone who's very much like themselves, very much like themselves in so many of these categories.

[886] And so we are horrendously bad at not only identifying what works well with us, but then making the selection.

[887] And on top of that, most women don't make the selection.

[888] It's typically the man who makes the selection.

[889] And this is where I say that what I'm.

[890] I like what I'm seeing now as more women are consciously choosing who and what they want in their relationship, opposed to being the ones who are always selected.

[891] Why does that happen?

[892] Why are women not choosing?

[893] Is it because, yeah, can me, because.

[894] Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's because of, you know, the craziness of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of the world and how we've evolved, you know, if you, if you think about, it was the pill that was one, of the first liberation points for women when it came to, when it came to dating.

[895] I mean, and you think about, that's not that long ago.

[896] We're talking about the 60s.

[897] We're talking about the 70s, really when the, when the pill became in vogue, you know, if you will, at least in the United States.

[898] And what that allowed was for women to finally have a little bit of choice when it came to dating.

[899] Before that, it was virtually men.

[900] making the selection, making the choice.

[901] You're mine or you're pregnant, so you're definitely mine, and that was it.

[902] And then you saw a little bit of liberation come from the pill, which was incredible.

[903] But then also what's great now is the dating apps.

[904] I know the dating apps get a lot of stick for whatever reasons.

[905] And yes, we should always hold dating apps accountable.

[906] But what's beautiful is that you do have dating apps where you have given women a lot, more choice and control in the dating experience, which is important.

[907] And even when you look at the studies and you look at the dating app ecosystems that are led by women, they're safer, they're less crude, you know, the list goes on and on.

[908] Interesting.

[909] So are you saying that we contrast tends to be better for compatibility than finding someone who's a replication of yourself?

[910] All right, that's a good way.

[911] So a bit of a bit of contrast, right, a bit of it.

[912] It's almost like coming back to the weak tie theory.

[913] You know, you want someone, I think, well, let me say this.

[914] The best matches I've seen are based on that blueprint that I outlined from attachment style all the way down to physical attraction.

[915] But then context also plays a large role.

[916] You know, if I were to place you on a desolate island with someone, I guarantee that person is going to be the love of your life after a while.

[917] You're going to have babies.

[918] You're going to have lots of babies.

[919] They're going to be, you know, you're going to think they're your soulmate, right?

[920] So context plays a large, large, large role, which is why it's interesting to see how politics plays a role in dating.

[921] You know, just 20 years ago, politics was insignificant in dating.

[922] it was not a topic that was brought up definitely not brought up on a first date but you know if your partner was on it was has an opposing political view it's completely fine today it's one of the top metrics behind whether or not you want to match someone this is politics there have been some really interesting studies that showed that i mean even how sexually obsessed men are right we still would turn down, well, it depends on who you're talking to, but there's a significant percentage of men, but a vast majority of women who would not have sex with someone that they find physically attractive, but yet have opposing political beliefs.

[923] I mean, that, but that's the context.

[924] That's the day and age that we live in.

[925] So context, I think plays a role as well.

[926] Do we have to work hard to find someone?

[927] Because I think there's kind of a prevailing narrative that serendipity will solve it for us.

[928] The world has changed tremendously.

[929] We don't have, we don't go to church like we used to.

[930] We don't have these pubs or that sort of institutions of community in our lives.

[931] So we're like predominantly more lonely than ever, living in four white walls in big old cities alone.

[932] Do we have to work hard to find that person?

[933] Do we have to put in work?

[934] Yeah, that's a great question.

[935] I think we should.

[936] I think we should put in the work.

[937] I think that we should put effort towards anything that we have interest in.

[938] So if a romantic interest is something that you want to have, you should put the work in.

[939] But I don't necessarily think it's about putting the work into someone else.

[940] It's about putting the work into you, right?

[941] And just elevating you, optimizing you, making you the best you, making you the best you can be, upping your communication, right?

[942] Understanding how to build emotional ties, right?

[943] Understanding how to make great decisions.

[944] Understanding how to be a great listener, critical thinker, right?

[945] All of these things are going to help you in all aspects of life and definitely in your romantic life.

[946] So that's where the hard work needs to go in.

[947] But we're in an interesting place because every generation believes their generation had it the hardest when it comes to finding a spouse.

[948] This is throughout time.

[949] Talk to my grandfather.

[950] My grandfather, oh, man, you won't believe how hard I had it, you know?

[951] And my grandfather had three options.

[952] Three options.

[953] Three options, right?

[954] Small village in Jamaica, three options, three people.

[955] But what I find interesting is there's a book, Paradox of Choice, by Barry Swartz, and he's the less is more, right?

[956] And what's interesting is that we have more options today than, say, my grandfather had in his day, but it's we have less satisfaction in the choices we make because we believe we have endless choice.

[957] That's the real problem that we have.

[958] So you think about you go onto a dating app, right?

[959] How many people can you swipe through in a dating app?

[960] Endless.

[961] It's endless.

[962] You could literally 10 ,000 if you want.

[963] to.

[964] And the thought is that you have an option, all 10 ,000 are option.

[965] So because you have 10 ,000 options and you pick one, there's less value that you have in the one.

[966] But if I flipped it around, maybe this is an idea.

[967] See, I should pitch you on this idea right now.

[968] All right, dating app, yeah.

[969] This is my pitch.

[970] Dating app, but you only get three options a week.

[971] Interesting.

[972] What do you think?

[973] What do you think?

[974] Because here, so here's my thought.

[975] Oh, uh -oh.

[976] So here's my thought, right?

[977] The thought is that you place more value in the option you choose, right?

[978] And that's ultimately, I think, what the challenge is in this day and age.

[979] It's about we think, you know, we're placing less value because we believe that we have endless option.

[980] So true.

[981] The issue with the idea is in a world where there are other apps.

[982] Like, if that app existed and it was the only app, then it would be the conversion rate from first date to marriage, I think would be considerably harder and higher.

[983] However, in a world where I can also use Tinder or Hinge, when they're going to give me 10 ,000 options, I think people will always choose option.

[984] So I think it would have a problem getting users because they'd go, well, I'd rather have a thousand guys to choose from or a thousand women to choose from.

[985] But your point is so spot on that a lack of options means we care we'll invest more and work harder on the ones we do have to make them work whereas if I meet you on a day and I don't feel like it's perfection I go fuck this I've got 37 men in my Tinder DMs that wanted to meet me as well so I'll go try one of them and there's always we're always contending with the false highlight real reality of those 36 other men because they looked perfect they did they chose their best three selfies, and he had a Rolex on, and he, you know, so, and then you meet him and you go, fuck, he was, what?

[986] But I'm going to go to the 36 others.

[987] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[988] And that's a horrific spiral.

[989] Another question I had was about honesty from the jump.

[990] You go on a first day, you meet someone.

[991] How honest should I be?

[992] Should I tell them about my childhood trauma on the first day?

[993] Like, is that being authentic or is that offloading?

[994] Yeah, yeah.

[995] Well, you know, Chris Rock said at best, you know, when you meet someone, especially on a date, you're not meeting them.

[996] You're meeting their representative, you know?

[997] So from that standpoint, we have to understand that there is a boundary negotiation that happens, especially on these first dates.

[998] And it is that tennis game again, right?

[999] So what you're trying to do ultimately is you're trying to, and let me even back up.

[1000] Can I say this about the first?

[1001] One is that I think most of us do the first date completely wrong.

[1002] Entirely wrong, we set ourselves up from the jump to fail miserably and be disappointed.

[1003] And the reason why is because the first date is too intricate.

[1004] It's too big.

[1005] You know, it's dinner.

[1006] But to prepare for dinner, I'm going to buy a new whatever, you know, I'm going to get my hair done.

[1007] You know, I'm going to get this.

[1008] I'm going to buy this new thing.

[1009] I'm going to get the car wash. I'm going to do all this stuff.

[1010] We've spent, we've invested so much that we've set ourselves up for failure.

[1011] Also, a first date, quite honestly, over dinner is an interview.

[1012] It always turns into an interview.

[1013] And then the culture I've noticed in the UK's is fascinating is that this is not everyone, but typically I notice is we're going to get completely pissed before the date.

[1014] So we can talk to each other.

[1015] So we're just going to drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink.

[1016] Okay, now.

[1017] Let's talk to each other.

[1018] And so it becomes, we set ourselves up for having a very costly date in time, effort, all resources.

[1019] Instead, it sounds so simple.

[1020] I like meetups.

[1021] Let's even take the pressure off of the date situation.

[1022] Let's call it a meetup.

[1023] 30 minutes, let's have coffee, right?

[1024] The reason why I love that, or a walk, sounds stupid, right?

[1025] No, a walk for 30 minutes.

[1026] Let's just a good walk.

[1027] at lunch, let's go take a walk.

[1028] The reason why I love that is because the expectation is so much lower in that situation, so much lower, the cost so much lower, right?

[1029] So the investment, right, so much lower.

[1030] So therefore, that return on investment potentially so much higher, but then also psychologically what I love is happening is if it's coffee, caffeine, if it's a walk, it's endorphins going, right?

[1031] those help us to bond, right?

[1032] Opposed to alcohol, that's a depressant, right?

[1033] It's doing the opposite.

[1034] So in terms of elucidating ourselves for great conversation and preparing ourselves for success, a walk or a coffee is great.

[1035] The other part of that is I've had millions, I've had, let's say, thousands of clients who I've said, okay, in particular, this is for ladies telling me. men.

[1036] Tell the guy that you want to meet him for coffee in the day.

[1037] A lot of guys are like, I'm not doing that.

[1038] Yeah, because they want to get laid.

[1039] They're like, I'm not doing that, right?

[1040] So right away, it's a good filter.

[1041] It's a great filter.

[1042] It's a easy filter for you, you know?

[1043] So that's part of that.

[1044] And then if it works well, and when I say if it works well is you just need two things on that meetup.

[1045] Are you physically attracted to them minimally?

[1046] And then, did they listen to you?

[1047] So if you have the ability to communicate, they listened critically, you listened critically, and you're physically attracted, that is chemistry.

[1048] Because we have a hard time defining what is chemistry.

[1049] You say, what is chemistry?

[1050] What's the buzz?

[1051] What does that mean?

[1052] And everyone was like, I don't know, I don't know.

[1053] It is, I think, one part, physical attraction, mutual physical attraction, another part, critical listening, listening.

[1054] If you have that, you have enough to move forward and then see each other in another environment, you know?

[1055] It's so true because I'm just reflecting on how many of my friends, both men and women, will come back from a date that didn't work out and just resentfully talk about how much they've spent and how much it cost them and how much money it cost them and the preparation or the facial and the hair and the nails and they sit there resentfully.

[1056] And it's all you you're right.

[1057] that level of expectation to a to a first encounter you know mow got out here and said we're happy when our expectations of how life is supposed to be going go are met and we're unhappy when our expectations of how life is supposed to be going to go unmet i'm coming in with one hell of an expectation that you're going to be my husband yes i've put in all the work all the investment the time three hours and then if you fall anywhere below that for whatever reason i'm probably looking for you know oh god it's not you're almost setting yourself up to fail by doing such a huge initial upfront investment.

[1058] Yes.

[1059] And you know what?

[1060] You were making, I think, a brilliant, brilliant point there is that when you've made that investment, what you end up doing is you're looking for reasons to weed them out.

[1061] Yeah.

[1062] Because you're like, I mean, I did all this.

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] And his trainers.

[1065] What trainers is this guy wearing?

[1066] Oh, my God.

[1067] You see those last year's trainer?

[1068] I bought new shoes for this year.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] Yeah.

[1071] That's crazy.

[1072] Crazy, crazy.

[1073] What are you struggling with in your relationship?

[1074] Oh, man. You know, it is time.

[1075] Really?

[1076] Time.

[1077] Quality time?

[1078] It is, it is, it is, I would say time, but quality time.

[1079] Because I am, you know, right now I'm predominantly doing television work.

[1080] And I've been in TV now, you know, for, since Oprah, you know, so 12, 13 years.

[1081] So it's been a while.

[1082] And one thing I've noticed about the television space is that there are moments when you're hot and there are moments when you're not.

[1083] And when you're hot, that's the time to leverage.

[1084] So you have to, you're already working your ass off, but you better work it off even more.

[1085] And so I'm in that zone right now.

[1086] I mean, I'm blessed.

[1087] I'm co -hosting two shows.

[1088] I'm contributing to three shows, one in the States, two here in the UK.

[1089] So it's one of these where I'm constantly work every day, every day in work, every day I'm working.

[1090] So that time with my wife, that time with my children, that's the time that I wish I can get some back.

[1091] How are you negotiating that?

[1092] How are you serving the ball over the net in terms of the tennis analogy to make sure things aren't, you know, she still feels like a priority and your family still feel like a priority?

[1093] Yeah, that's a great one.

[1094] I mean, finding those moments and making sure that we're in, or should I say, making sure that we're intentional about the moments that we do have, right?

[1095] So this morning, for example, before I came over here, we had breakfast together, went out, had breakfast together, sat, talk with the dog, right?

[1096] Those moments are immeasurable, right?

[1097] Those moments, right?

[1098] To have those moments together.

[1099] I dropped my boys off at school, right?

[1100] walk you walk them 10 minutes to school to 10 minutes the other to the bus those moments immeasurable you know when i was you know getting helping them dress tying their ties those moments and making sure that i'm fully in those moments not i'm in that moment but i'm on my phone at the same time i'm in that moment oh i've got to post this on instagram no phone goes away right phone goes away and so making sure that the moments that we have that i'm fully i'm fully in them and then And also I think gratitude is something that is very important.

[1101] And I've been practicing this for, I don't know, six, seven years.

[1102] But being appreciative of those moments and then reflecting upon those.

[1103] You know, so every morning, the first thing I do in the morning is I consciously think about the moments yesterday that I'm appreciative of.

[1104] And what I find myself doing is I'm rarely thinking about, oh, I'm so happy this happened at work or I'm so happy about the ratings of this.

[1105] It's always, man, I'm so happy that my son who's 11 held by hand walking to the bus.

[1106] He's 11, but he still held my hand.

[1107] You know, I'm so happy that my son came over and he asked me to tie his tie.

[1108] He gave me a kiss on the cheek and said, thank you, dad.

[1109] Like, those are the moments that really get to me. and that's what I wake up thinking about and I'm able to think about it because I was in the moment fully.

[1110] And talk to me about the near term then.

[1111] What are you working on in the near term?

[1112] I know you've got, we don't even talk about it today but you've got multiple revenue streams all over the place.

[1113] You're an entrepreneur.

[1114] You've got two or three TV shows that you're working on simultaneously, which is absurd.

[1115] Yes.

[1116] All of these things going on in your life.

[1117] Give me a picture of your full, your professional.

[1118] professional portfolio per se.

[1119] Okay, so there are a lot of things happening and they're all in different categories.

[1120] So on the television side, I am co -hosting Married at First Site UK and I'm also co -hosting Celebs Go Dating.

[1121] We're in our 11th series of Slubs Go Dating and our seventh of Marri at First Site.

[1122] So those are big entities.

[1123] I contribute to the Lorraine show and also to Stefts Pack Lunch.

[1124] here, and then in the United States, I'm a contributor to Good Morning America, right?

[1125] So that by itself, those are a couple full times, right?

[1126] But that's kind of like the TV side.

[1127] Do you have a podcast?

[1128] I don't.

[1129] I did, like years ago, I did, but I mean, quite honestly, looking at this and, you know, you are, and this is me not trying to gas you up, is that you are incredibly inspiring, incredibly inspiring.

[1130] And you know, what's interesting is I look at you and I think, okay, God, this guy is younger than me. You know, how is this?

[1131] He's so much younger than me and he's inspiring than me, right?

[1132] And what it is is that you pursue excellence to a degree.

[1133] I don't know if I've ever witnessed.

[1134] I'm talking about I've worked with some of the top billionaires in the world.

[1135] I've interviewed.

[1136] I was a business columnist for USA Today and I interviewed some of the most successful entrepreneurs like period and your level of pursuit of excellence surpasses them where's my billion but see it's not about the boot it's not about that you know you're and and and and so all i say is that so you are incredibly inspiring to me and to to to many people and to the question around the podcast is part of that inspiration is like this is a great space you know to get into So that's something that is in the back of my mind, but I'm not actively pursuing it.

[1137] That's very kind.

[1138] It makes me feel really uncomfortable.

[1139] That's why I cracked that billion jokes.

[1140] I didn't know what to do with my face the whole time.

[1141] How do you feel?

[1142] How do you feel, Stephen?

[1143] It's a huge compliment.

[1144] And I, I, I receive the compliment.

[1145] And I believe what you're saying.

[1146] It just, you know, it makes you feel uncomfortable because, you know, I don't know why.

[1147] It just makes me feel uncomfortable when I, when I, when I really appreciate it.

[1148] And I believe every word you said, I believe you meant every word you said.

[1149] And I know that we are, I think the reason why our team will be successful in pretty much anything we do is because of what you said.

[1150] So it's because I think we care more about the small stuff.

[1151] Yes.

[1152] And that's where, for me, excellence begins.

[1153] We can all make the big decisions to start a podcast as a big decision.

[1154] It doesn't guarantee success.

[1155] It's all the tiny things that people that are easy to do, but also easy not to do, that end up defining your trajectory.

[1156] And over the last, I think, two years in particular, actually because of this podcast and actually because it's so data -centric and I look at lines and change.

[1157] and how one decision that, like, the team and I make or that Jack makes can just tilt the direction of the line.

[1158] Right.

[1159] And I go, and it's been this reinforcer to me that, in fact, the most important things and the biggest opportunity is the smallest things everyone else, nobody else cares about.

[1160] Yes.

[1161] They'll be thinking about, let's get a bigger guest or, like, you know, let's get, you know, the big stuff, but it's the small stuff where we have our opportunity.

[1162] Yes.

[1163] So you've identified something that I hold very true, and I consider it to me, but being my professional religion um and i appreciate the compliment means a lot no no definitely and and and you just i think destroyed a myth that exists as well and that is that we should be sweating the small stuff yeah 100 % yeah you know the whole oh don't sweat no sweat the small stuff because that's where greatest change comes the same thing with your romantic relationships people don't sweat the small no that one miss hug you know that one missed i love you let's correct it now correct it now yeah So, so powerful.

[1164] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest.

[1165] They don't know who they're leaving it for.

[1166] Okay.

[1167] So it's kind of a through line, all the guests having a conversation with each other.

[1168] And I don't get to read the question until I open the book.

[1169] When was the last time you cried of happiness?

[1170] Oh my gosh.

[1171] Cried of happiness.

[1172] Oh my gosh.

[1173] I know, I mean, I've cried tears of sadness recently.

[1174] You've cried tears of sadness recently.

[1175] Yeah, man. I mean, my sister -in -law passed away two weeks ago.

[1176] I've had, I mean, I've had a string of passings in my family that is just devastating, devastating.

[1177] First funeral, I had the plan.

[1178] You know, my wife and I planned.

[1179] And just, I mean, just, yeah, one of those.

[1180] So, you know, I think, I think of tears of sadness.

[1181] What did that teach you about life?

[1182] Someone young and.

[1183] Sure, it goes like this.

[1184] I've been at two deathbeds.

[1185] One of someone who I would call incredibly young.

[1186] And another one, someone who's lived a full life, they both said the same thing.

[1187] And it haunts me. They both said, this thing goes by quick.

[1188] Life goes by quick.

[1189] That's all we get.

[1190] And it gives me chills because I think about them looking at me. And that's part of why I think I have lived the life or live life the way I live it.

[1191] and why I focus so much in the moment and why I try to express how I feel about people in the moment because we may never get the moment again, you know?

[1192] So, yeah, it's taught me, I mean, to write a eulogy, to have to write a eulogy, you know, for someone so young, it did, I will say some practical things, though, it taught me. It taught me, we all need wills, we all need a will, will, I think that we all should be consciously aware of how we want to be laid to rest.

[1193] It's a major debate that happens in the family and, you know, to have that consciously thought out so that people can, your loved ones can honor you in the way that you want to be honored, I think is incredibly important.

[1194] So to have a will and to have prethought some of this, it's not more, but I think we have to understand this is part of our humanity is that we will not be here, you know, forever.

[1195] So those are thoughts that are practical thoughts that I've taken and now I have a will.

[1196] Now I've written, you know, where I want to be buried, how I want to be buried.

[1197] These are incredibly important.

[1198] I cried like, I cried for, it could be 30, 40 minutes straight at my wedding.

[1199] I just cried.

[1200] I cried the entire wedding.

[1201] I just cried and cried and cried and cried.

[1202] All the pictures of me cry, cry, cry.

[1203] So those are probably, that's the last tears of, tears of happiness.

[1204] But I'm incredibly happy.

[1205] But more than that, I'm appreciative.

[1206] You know, I'm appreciative of life.

[1207] And it's actually the tears of sadness that's allowed me to be appreciative.

[1208] Well, Paul, thank you.

[1209] my team met you a couple of weeks ago and they are obsessed with you and it's funny because it's not necessarily it's because of who you were as a person to all of them how you treated them how wonderful you are how you know it's all the small stuff it's kind of the stuff you said at the start about that underdog and reaching out to the person that might be stood up against the wall it's all of that stuff where everyone in this building I wasn't here I think I was out of the country if I remember correctly but when you came to this building they were just you converted them into raving fans and I don't know how long you were here or how much you paid them I paid them a lot that explains it they were just all absolute super fans of yours and your whole philosophy you said something you said something to someone I'm not entirely sure who it was you know because we'd essentially ask you to come and help us with something with a project we're working on which I'm very excited about and you said something almost about like karma where you do things for people because you kind of believe in planting that seed.

[1210] Yes.

[1211] You don't know when it will flourish or when it will, you know, come to fruition, but you just do good with the belief that like karma.

[1212] Yes.

[1213] And such an important way to live.

[1214] And you actually helped me to realize that because the impact you had on all these people here, you turned all of them into disciples.

[1215] And they're like fairly influential people.

[1216] That, you know, they're well connected.

[1217] We've got a lot of interesting people coming here, you know, several days a week.

[1218] And then today, having had a chance to sit with you and ask you some questions that really a lot of the questions I asked for my own selfish pursuit of trying to figure shit out, you've changed a lot in me and you're going to change a lot in my relationships.

[1219] I'm partly sat here, you know, winding this podcast up so I can go fix some shit.

[1220] And I think a lot of people that have listened to this conversation will be feeling the same way.

[1221] Tremendous value, tremendously kind man. Even when the cameras are off, you're just a class, class act.

[1222] And I've no doubt that you're going to get everything you deserve.

[1223] We talked about that sort of like long tail lagging and value.

[1224] Yes.

[1225] Your future is going to be immense.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] I'm honored.

[1228] I'm appreciative.

[1229] I love you.

[1230] I love your team, right?

[1231] I really do.

[1232] And it's an honor to be here.

[1233] So thank you so much for having me. I and all of my team love you too.

[1234] I can speak on behalf of all of them.

[1235] Thank you, Paul.

[1236] Thank you.

[1237] Thank you.