Susan Burton

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[3] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[4] I'm Dan Shepard.

[5] I'm joined by Monica Mansoon.

[6] Hello.

[7] We have a really special guest today, truly, truly, truly special.

[8] Someone I think that everyone will be in awe of.

[9] Monica and I certainly were the amount of growth this human being as accomplished.

[10] She is really an inspirational person.

[11] Her name is Susan Burton, and she is the founder and executive director of a new way of life, which is a nonprofit that provides sober housing and other support to formerly incarcerated women.

[12] Nationally known as an advocate for restoring basic civil and human rights to those who have served time.

[13] Burton was a winner of AARP's prestigious Purpose Prize, A CNN top 10 hero.

[14] She has a book entitled Becoming Miss Burton from prison to recovery to leading the fight for incarcerated women.

[15] Susan was incarcerated six times.

[16] You know, she was taking the brunt of a very flawed system.

[17] And what she has done in the wake of that is just mind -blowing.

[18] Yeah, I've never met anyone like her.

[19] Yeah, me either.

[20] So please, please enjoy Susan Burton.

[21] So on these bonus Fridays, we love to give shoutouts to black -owned.

[22] businesses that we are fans of.

[23] So, Monica, who do you have today?

[24] I am going to talk about Red Bay coffee.

[25] Okay.

[26] Today.

[27] Red Bay was founded about six years ago in Oakland.

[28] That's a neighboring city for us.

[29] Yes, it's a Bay City.

[30] Yeah.

[31] So they took a little bit of a beating during COVID.

[32] Oh, I imagine.

[33] Yeah.

[34] Yeah.

[35] So I really want to support them and put that out there that if you're interested in some delicious coffee, check out Red Bay coffee.

[36] So the guy who, who founded this, Kiba Conte.

[37] He's a visual artist and a former activist who organized protests in San Francisco following the 91 beating of Rodney King.

[38] And he says he's inspired by the Gandhi quote, be the change you wish to see in the world.

[39] So let's give Red Bay coffee a boost.

[40] Yeah, have a nice hot cup of Red Bay coffee.

[41] Before I tell you my company, I just want to first thank Oprah Magazine, who put together a really compelling list of 25 black -owned businesses that you could support right now.

[42] and because I'm in the mood for a glass of it, I want to talk about a jorn tea house.

[43] Now, calling all tea drinkers, this is from Oprah Magazine, we guarantee a jorn tea house will be your cup of, well, you know, as a young girl, one of Latonia Cochley's fondest memories was sipping sleepy time herbal tea with her mom.

[44] So when she entered a business planning competition in high school, it was only natural that she created a proposal for a tea company.

[45] More than 15 years later, Coakley is now the owner of a jorn tea house, an artisanal loose -leaf tea company offering hand -blended beverages sustainably sourced from around the world.

[46] In Adjorn Tea House, in case I'm muddling, the pronunciation, is spelled A -D -J -O -U -R -N.

[47] So please check out Adjorn Tea House.

[48] Susan, if it's okay with you, I pulled a little clip from a documentary that was made about your work just to kind of set up how impactful it is.

[49] So if you'll indulge us, I'd love to play, like, just a minute -long clip.

[50] Okay.

[51] Robb, take it away.

[52] To the bus station, and, you know, they give you $200, and they buy your ticket out of your money and put you on a bus.

[53] And you're just headed to wherever.

[54] And so I arrived downtown L .A. And it was really scary.

[55] It was really scary.

[56] And I looked like I came from prison, you know.

[57] I was dusty looking, you know, with jeans and a paper bag.

[58] Everybody knows that you're from prison.

[59] They know, just by the way you look, and they know.

[60] You got approached by everybody.

[61] There were people asking you if you needed a ride, telling you that you look fine, drug addicts, people live in that life and you know they are.

[62] It's so easy to get lowered, especially if you're scared.

[63] And I'm going to be honest, I was scared.

[64] And I felt like I was just standing there buck naked.

[65] I didn't have any place to go.

[66] I really didn't.

[67] And I called Ms. Burton, and I told me. I told her, I said, I received a letter from you, and you said for me to call you and that you would pick me up.

[68] And she says, where are you?

[69] And I told her, she says, I'll be there in about 15 minutes.

[70] And she came and picked me up.

[71] So they come into a place and be able to drink out of a glass and not plastic, to sleep on a mattress and not metal, and to have food, have choices, just stuff people take for granted.

[72] Like Burton is so sweet.

[73] She's a good lady I'm glad she picked me up Oh man What's it like to hear that I mean it's really really sweet Kind of brought tears to my eyes Because Angela emailed me last week And she wants to start a place in Texas She's in Texas now She's married and she She wants to start a home for women down in Texas She was here in February.

[74] And I told her, go get a nonprofit status, set up your mission, really think about what you want to do, get a name and all of that.

[75] And she did it.

[76] She says, I have my nonprofit status.

[77] You know, so one of the things I've been doing is helping other people to replicate our model.

[78] Yeah.

[79] She knows firsthand what it's like.

[80] So if she wants to go pick up women from the bus station that are getting released from jail, let's get her ready to do that.

[81] I guess when I heard that clip and I saw her talking in the sincerity in her eyes, as much as you can know it on an intellectual level to hear how many people have zero options.

[82] They're alone on planet Earth and it's scary.

[83] And for you to have written her a letter and for her to have just one number to call and for to be brave enough and vulnerable enough to call, it's just incredible.

[84] And I'm pretty in awe of you.

[85] So I think we're on the same road.

[86] I'm 16.

[87] You're sober.

[88] You're sober, yeah?

[89] Yeah, yeah.

[90] I'll be 23.

[91] 23.

[92] Yeah, the fourth young and 23, honey.

[93] Yeah, October next month.

[94] Oh, man. Are you from Southern California?

[95] Yes, I am.

[96] I was born in Los Angeles County, in East Los Angeles.

[97] And so what was it like, what happened, and what's it like now, as we say?

[98] Yeah, well, it was pretty hard.

[99] and confusing as a little girl.

[100] I should have been, you know, dressing up my dolls and playing.

[101] Instead, I was trying to figure out how to keep the dress on me. Yeah.

[102] Yeah.

[103] I just want to say I too share that.

[104] I share some sexual trauma.

[105] Right.

[106] And it's pretty life altering.

[107] Yeah?

[108] I mean, when you learn the statistics that like 80 % of us ended up addicts, it seems pretty obvious that it's pretty destructive.

[109] How old were you?

[110] I think I was around three or four.

[111] And my mother would drive to Camarillo State Hospital with my auntie to pick up my auntie's boyfriend.

[112] And I'd be in the backseat and I'd be terrified.

[113] And you drive down a long driveway.

[114] And the driveway is lined with palm trees.

[115] And when I got to Palm Tree 22, I just knew he'd be walking down those steps and I was trying to fade away.

[116] Never faded away.

[117] But at about three or four, he would come home from Cameroon.

[118] every weekend and he would harm me. Yeah.

[119] Abuse you.

[120] Abuse me. And my wife has read your book.

[121] I haven't had time yet to do it, but now I'm very interested in you.

[122] And I do intend to read it that your book is called Becoming Miss Burton.

[123] Yes, becoming Ms. Burton, from prison to recovery to leading the fight for incarcerated women.

[124] It's unbelievable.

[125] Monica and I were talking about it before we got here.

[126] And I said, you know, if you look at the gap between, say, who Brad Pitt started as and who he became, whatever amount of real estate that that took to go from that to that, that's a tenth of what we're talking about from you to have gone from six times incarcerated to now doing the work you're doing.

[127] It's one of the most staggering turnarounds of anyone we've interviewed.

[128] As we talk about this, I just, I had one thought that I'm curious about.

[129] Do you feel less vulnerable in writing than you do speaking about it or do you have a similar level of comfort speaking about it as well as writing it?

[130] So I think it's about even across the board, something happened for me when I got sober that I no longer felt vulnerable.

[131] I felt safe.

[132] And for the first time in my life that I had ever felt safe.

[133] And with that feeling of safety and protection, I just carry on.

[134] I go forward and I bring as many forward with me that want to go.

[135] You probably feel a little bit more in control when you're sober and you're in charge of your own decisions, whereas you weren't for so long.

[136] I guess, you know, from a little child, I never felt in control.

[137] And feeling out of control, perhaps the drugs and the alcohol, I guess, calm me down or mask the pain and the trauma of not being in control and being subject.

[138] to so much violence, abuse, sexual abuse, and trauma.

[139] But when I got sober, that whole surrendering thing, you know, I felt like I was in the love and care and protection of a higher power.

[140] Uh -huh.

[141] Your story is I know it, so I know about that when you're a little girl.

[142] And then you, I have to imagine when the first time you used, was there a sense of like, oh, my God, I can cope?

[143] Like, for me, it was, oh, man, this is the feeling I was searching for.

[144] I had different techniques.

[145] You know, I think a lot of people in your situation or the one I was in, you develop like ticks.

[146] I had a lot of ticks.

[147] You know, I had OCD stuff I did to kind of control what little sliver of my life I could.

[148] But when I drank alcohol, I was like, oh, here's optimism.

[149] I could only experience optimism through getting drunk.

[150] It was my first kind of feeling with it.

[151] And I wonder, I know you've had stages of your addiction, but it must have felt good right out of the gates when you tried.

[152] that, yeah?

[153] I think that it was fun at first, and it was relaxing, and I could sort of escape.

[154] And then, you know, it gets progressively worse.

[155] But I think that it was the escape that I was looking for from all I was feeling inside.

[156] Yeah.

[157] And so one part I know is that on top of this childhood, you had everyone who's had a child's worst nightmare happened to you.

[158] your five -year -old little boy was hit by a car.

[159] And I know that, from what I've read about you, that that kind of escalated the addiction.

[160] But was it already present prior to that or did that?

[161] Yeah, I had already experimented.

[162] I had, you know, played around with marijuana.

[163] I had had sniffed cocaine a couple of times.

[164] I had drank, you know, fine cabasier.

[165] So, yeah, I had engaged before, but when I lost my son, when he was killed, I just couldn't hold any more pain.

[166] Yeah.

[167] And I took a deep dive into a big bottle.

[168] And I tried to drown all of the pain and the grief and the loss and the rage because it was a policeman who was driving the car that killed my son.

[169] And it was the police department.

[170] And nobody ever even acknowledged my son.

[171] I never remember anyone acknowledging.

[172] My daughter tells me at the funeral that the chief of police at the time, Daryl Gates, came up to me and said he was sorry.

[173] But I don't remember it.

[174] Yeah.

[175] Yeah, I'm sure you're just in a coma.

[176] I don't know.

[177] I can only imagine.

[178] Yeah.

[179] I was just frozen with loss.

[180] But I imagine you're caught in a loop where you're just like, this can't be.

[181] And I must be able to reverse time and fix this.

[182] Like, just accepting that that's a reality is almost impossible.

[183] I mean, there was anger that the policemen never, ever even got out of his car.

[184] Oh.

[185] It was the loss that my son is gone.

[186] It was just a lot going on.

[187] And I didn't know what to do with it.

[188] Every time a black man is killed today, the sadness of the loss for me wakes up.

[189] Yeah.

[190] And I can kind of feel the mom what she feels as a result of whatever the end.

[191] incident is, but the loss is the loss.

[192] And so I feel it every time.

[193] Every time the policeman is not held accountable.

[194] Yeah.

[195] I feel it.

[196] I would imagine, does it just feel like, do you think we're all just disposable?

[197] Like, you can just hit one of us and you don't need to get out of the car and you don't need to call and apologize?

[198] Like, I guess that would be the only thing I could interpret from that.

[199] Well, you know, I had to do a lot of healing and forgiveness work for me on all of the incidents, all of the loss, all of the tragedy.

[200] And, you know, I tried to think about what could have happened in the incident of that policeman, how he's trained, and what their protocol is, while it doesn't make real sense to me that they operate like that.

[201] But that's the way they operate.

[202] You know, that is the way they operate.

[203] That is the culture of police.

[204] It's the system, exactly.

[205] So I had to do some deep work to get beyond that.

[206] And I had to get beyond that to enable myself to do what I do today.

[207] To have empathy, to have compassion, to have smarts, to have heart, to have determination, to have commitment.

[208] Well, I'm sure you've heard in our group that resentments are like drinking poison, hoping your enemy dies.

[209] It's just like, it ends up killing you, right?

[210] Yeah, right.

[211] The last laugh they get is that you let it burn you alive.

[212] And then the other part is that I wanted to be sober and I wanted to be the best that I could be.

[213] Yeah.

[214] And until I could address that, until I could let it go to the best of my human ability, then I don't think I could have moved on.

[215] I couldn't have been who I am today.

[216] And I have to let a lot roll off of me. Yeah.

[217] And they're so tempting, man. I like, I love holding resentments.

[218] I like to have a little vault in my head where I keep track everyone's indiscretion so I can hold them accountable someday.

[219] I had this little incident at home where I had a bunch of bed spres that I was going to take over to the houses.

[220] And they were in my car and I left them in my car overnight and someone broke my window.

[221] Oh, boy.

[222] And took them all out.

[223] I didn't get mad.

[224] I didn't get angry.

[225] I just thought, why don't somebody give that?

[226] person a job.

[227] So that I'm walking around at night doing windows.

[228] And at that moment, I said, you know, something has happened for me because I'm really supposed to be mad about my car window being broke.

[229] I'm really supposed to have a grievance there.

[230] Yeah, yeah.

[231] Yeah, this is objectively offensive.

[232] For me, I guess a lot of it, too, is just muscle memory and it's practice.

[233] But the thing that I've come to really embrace is when someone does something to me, I got to say one of my first thoughts now is not that I was wronged is gratitude that I don't have to live with the thing that they just did, right?

[234] Yeah.

[235] Now, once your son was killed, you start entering the prison system, right?

[236] What was your first experience waking up in a jail or a prison?

[237] So after my son died, I would go to sleep longing for him and I would see him in my sleep.

[238] And I didn't want to go to sleep.

[239] So I would stay up until I was exhausted.

[240] And one of the times I stayed up, the police woke me up as I pulled over in my car and took me to jail.

[241] And it was quite chilling, quite chilling experience.

[242] I'm thinking I'm going to jail and I'm thinking about the loss of my son as I'm going to jail with the people that kind of like killed my son.

[243] And, you know, they put you in jail and it's so dehumanizing and so hard and yeah yeah you know so inhumane you lose just everything I had to try to turn off and I had learned to turn off as a little girl right to disassociate and disassociate just be walking around in my body but not in my body disconnected to all the senses that say you know when they strip you out of your clothing and and search your body, you have to be somewhere else because it's an act of violence.

[244] It's an act of abuse.

[245] It's an act that happened so many times before.

[246] You've lost control of your body yet again.

[247] Yes.

[248] I just read this great book.

[249] I don't know if you've read it called The Body Keeps the Score.

[250] Have you ever heard of that book?

[251] I've heard of that book, but I haven't read it.

[252] Oh, man, I recommend it so much as someone who grew up with a lot of violence, a lot of trauma, learning how your body stores that and what it does to your brain and how it rewires things.

[253] And there's a little bit of a chapter about the doctor and his road to studying this.

[254] And he had worked at the VA hospital for a long time.

[255] And he was saying that he started noticing at the VA hospital several times a day, someone would completely lose their composure.

[256] You know, a patient, they'd scream at a receptionist, they'd throw stuff, they'd thrash around and what he started observing is that a lot of these people that have had really bad trauma for the rest of their life every little thing feels life threatening you know that it you're back in that situation where you were too little to defend yourself and now this little thing it feels to you like it's your life's on the line and you'll never let someone take advantage of you again and that your reactions are just so over the top as is mine often were i have to imagine as jail and prison there must be so many people in there that are also survivors of great trauma and their mechanism to control themselves must be greatly diminished.

[257] Was there just tons of chaos and other people having a hard time?

[258] I mean, you had these different personalities in the jail.

[259] You have the people who want to control the jail.

[260] You have the people that want to be in with the people that control the jail.

[261] And you have the people that just want to sort of be invisible within the jail.

[262] But, you know, there was not a lot of reactionary stuff in the jail or in the prison because you'll be in control.

[263] Right.

[264] There's nowhere you can go with it except to the hole.

[265] And nobody wants to go to jail within the jail.

[266] Right.

[267] Nobody wants to go to solitary.

[268] Sometimes there's fights and breakouts and misunderstanding, but, you know, it's not like it's a rampant thing.

[269] Anyway, it wasn't like that while I was going to prison.

[270] Yeah.

[271] I haven't been in 24 years now.

[272] Yeah, that's a good stretch.

[273] Now, when you got out on your sixth time, you entered for the first time a recovery home, and that experience was completely mind -blowing to you, right?

[274] And it was the opposite of all your experiences in prison.

[275] And you used the word humane.

[276] It's like the first time you had been treated humanely.

[277] Yeah.

[278] And you must immediately recognize like, oh, that jail isn't set up to rehabilitate anyone.

[279] It's not set up to help anyone get some tools.

[280] It's probably just making everything worse, which would explain the really high recidivism.

[281] I can't say that word.

[282] Recidivism.

[283] Recidivism.

[284] Recidivism.

[285] What, that's a, that's a hard one.

[286] It's a tricky one.

[287] Recidivism.

[288] You know, I think it helps explain that.

[289] But can you tell me what that was like to enter into a place where they were genuinely wanting to help you get the tools?

[290] You know, that was the place where the safety descended all on me and around me, and I was able to ultimately pick up my bed and walk.

[291] It was a place in Santa Monica.

[292] It was by the beach.

[293] It was a place that was well -resourced, and the people were friendly, caring, compassionate.

[294] but stern, right?

[295] Compassionate, but really clear and stern about what I needed to do if I wanted to recover.

[296] And it wasn't a command.

[297] It was an opportunity.

[298] It wasn't, I had to do, but do you want to do.

[299] And I say it was like a buffet of well -being.

[300] And whatever you wanted from the buffet, you could partake in it.

[301] You could get the bologna or you could get the prime rib.

[302] Or maybe a little bologna on top.

[303] top of that prime red.

[304] But, but, you know, I mean, you know, and wherever you are, there's people that are doing things and people that are not doing things.

[305] Of course.

[306] And there's opportunity to do the things, good things.

[307] So, so as a result, I was able to get weekly counseling for the first time in my life.

[308] I was introduced to the 12 steps.

[309] I found a sponsor out there.

[310] She's still my sponsor.

[311] I made friends.

[312] I went to art shows.

[313] People invited me places.

[314] Nobody was inviting me place.

[315] By the time I got there, nobody was inviting me but the prison.

[316] They wanted me back.

[317] The last time I left prison, the guard said, Burton, we're keeping the bed for you.

[318] And I says, I'm going to get a job.

[319] And he said, the only job you'll ever have is in prison.

[320] Oh, gosh.

[321] So what I want to say is I'm going back, all right.

[322] I'm going in the morning.

[323] I'm going to pick up a woman and bring her to a new way of life.

[324] I'm going to take her to freedom.

[325] So you leave this recovery house, or maybe you haven't even left.

[326] But you're introduced, I would imagine, to the concept of service, right?

[327] As part of our program, we serve other alcoholics and we're there for people.

[328] And then I don't know about for you, but for me, I learned that while I'm helping someone else, it's hard to think about myself and all my problems are really just thinking about myself and all my bullshit needs that aren't even needs.

[329] That freedom I used to get from getting drunk exists within service because I'm too busy focusing on the other person to obsess about myself.

[330] Now, was that your introduction to service?

[331] Was the 12 steps?

[332] I was at Claire.

[333] Yeah, I've been to a bunch of their fundraisers.

[334] Yeah, yeah, I was at Claire.

[335] And I saw people coming and selflessly giving of themselves on a regular, committed basis.

[336] And they were happy.

[337] Yeah.

[338] You know, they were doing it happily.

[339] Yeah.

[340] And I never had saw a demonstration of the altruistic, unself.

[341] selfish giving of oneself.

[342] Yeah, to me, that was even a red flag.

[343] Like, if you come at me with a smile, my first thought is, what are you after?

[344] I don't trust that.

[345] Well, I'm safe now.

[346] And I'm learning about how people live in other places other than South L .A. And I see the genuineness.

[347] One thing that you develop when you have the type of life that I have is a sense of who people are.

[348] Who's real and who's fake?

[349] Who's real?

[350] Who's Memorex?

[351] You know?

[352] So I saw them as authentic.

[353] And I wanted it, you know?

[354] And so they say, if you want what we have, then do what we do.

[355] Yeah, I love it.

[356] A program of attraction.

[357] Yeah.

[358] So at what point, though, do you decide I'm going to actually turn that service to people that are getting out of prison, that are taking these bus rides, they're getting dumped next to Skid Row, and they got $200 of which they just blew some on the bus ticket?

[359] What clicked for you?

[360] that you decided that was going to be your thing?

[361] I went back to Santa Monica.

[362] I was the secretary of the meeting.

[363] The first meeting I ever stood up in and said, look what alcohol has done to me, shaking and trembling.

[364] And I worked with this woman, and she asked me to move in.

[365] And I saved all of the money that I made working with her.

[366] And, I mean, I saved to the point, I spent $10 a week.

[367] Well, you somehow saved $12 ,000.

[368] in the 90s, which is, that's hard to do, man. I was, yeah, I was trying to save money in the 90s.

[369] That ain't easy.

[370] Well, you know, I was so disciplined and I didn't understand why I was being so disciplined about spending, but then the idea came when talking with my sister -in -law, another woman named Mitzi, and let's do something.

[371] I'm reflecting on what happens in Santa Monica.

[372] People don't go to prison for the things that we went for in South L .A. people are giving help there's resources so i said we're going to make a resource oh my god i never dreamed i was taking on so much but it's all right and it isn't that crazy it goes back to what we were talking about earlier about the systemic nature of all this stuff that the idea that in south la that concept doesn't even exist or at least was completely off your radar and i'm sure most people's like that's so telling i mean i asked the judge my third time going to going to prison.

[373] I told the judge what had happened.

[374] I asked for help.

[375] Could there be any help for me?

[376] And he sent me to prison.

[377] And to think that there could have been and there should have been something different.

[378] I mean, today, what I went to prison for is a misdemeanor.

[379] Well, also, you have a health issue.

[380] Right.

[381] If I have a health issue, prison's the last place I'm stopping.

[382] Yeah, the last place.

[383] Yeah.

[384] So you just start showing up at bus stops, right?

[385] Well, first I get a a little house.

[386] I take three of the 12 ,000.

[387] Them days, you could put $3 ,000 down on the house and get it.

[388] So I take $3 ,000 and I think $3 ,400 and I put it down as a down payment on a little house.

[389] And I call it a new way of life.

[390] There was a little place in the big book where they talked about you will be having a new way of life.

[391] And I had a new way of life.

[392] And I wanted to spread it.

[393] I wanted to show other people how to have a new way of life.

[394] And I'd go down to the bus station where Angela talked about getting off the bus.

[395] And in those days, I'd wait.

[396] Every day, the bus comes in at a certain time, twice a day.

[397] And women from prison are walking off that bus.

[398] And it's not like we were strangers.

[399] These are people I knew.

[400] These were people just like me. I had time with them.

[401] And I offered them to come to a new way of life.

[402] And you just start letting people live in your house.

[403] And my first question is, was there any fear?

[404] you're associated with that?

[405] Because again, you know, I was a scumbag.

[406] I ran with other scumbags.

[407] I wasn't super excited to get back in the ring with them.

[408] I know the possibility.

[409] So was there any fear for you to be inviting people into your home?

[410] There was no fear.

[411] There was only hope.

[412] Oh.

[413] Hope for something different.

[414] What I realized is I could have and I should have had that opportunity that I got out in Santa Monica.

[415] So I brought that to South L .A., the support, the kindness.

[416] the commitment, the consideration.

[417] I didn't have as many resources as they had in Santa Monica, but I had as much love as they had in Santa Monica.

[418] Well, you have more goodness in your pinky than I've gotten a six three body.

[419] Yeah, you got an abundance of that.

[420] Now, but there's a lot to learn.

[421] There's one thing's inviting people into the house and maybe giving them a warm meal, but then you just start adding layer after layer of services and help.

[422] And you're so competent that you could have figured all this out.

[423] I mean, let's just start with figuring out how to be an NGO, right, to be a nonprofit.

[424] How did you figure that out?

[425] So I sat down and I Googled some stuff and I had a friend who helped to put it together.

[426] And then when I sent the paperwork off, so you send it to the state first.

[427] That's before you can send it to the federal government and you get a state incorporation.

[428] And it's just the articles that you write down.

[429] and I did the best that I could putting those articles together.

[430] It was enough to get the muster and get that certificate from the state of California.

[431] And then I put those articles with articles of incorporation.

[432] And I sent those to the federal government.

[433] And then I went back and forth and back and forth.

[434] If you call the people, they'll talk to you.

[435] They probably want to talk to somebody instead of just pushing paper all day.

[436] So I went back and forth with this guy.

[437] and he eventually sent the nonprofit status.

[438] It arrived on Christmas Eve.

[439] Get out of here.

[440] Yeah, what's that feeling like?

[441] That's a lifetime highlight, huh?

[442] It was good, but see, I got the nonprofit because this church told me I needed it if I wanted to get bus token.

[443] Oh, okay.

[444] I wanted bus tokens to give to the women because I was running out of money to send them everywhere on the bus.

[445] And I went to this church called Fame, first AME.

[446] I heard about a bus program they had, And I asked them for bus tokens.

[447] And they said I had to be a 501c3.

[448] And that's all I wanted was bus tokens.

[449] Isn't it funny how, yeah, I can start with...

[450] Did I open up a can of worms?

[451] I mean, not a kind of worm, but did not open up the surprise, right?

[452] Yeah, Pandora's box.

[453] Pandora's box.

[454] So that 501C3 status opened up so many other doors.

[455] And all along the way, when you talk about putting layer on top of layer on top of layer, there's been these spark points to head being in a direction.

[456] that would allow me to do my higher powers will in my life.

[457] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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[481] Hmm, I want to have a story read to me by them.

[482] I use the Calm app every night.

[483] You do?

[484] I do.

[485] I love it.

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[487] It really does.

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[495] Now, does asking for help come easy to you?

[496] That's a real hard thing for me. And clearly, it sounds like, Like from your story, I can hear that you were vulnerable enough to ask people to help you.

[497] I can't do it all.

[498] And it's not all my responsibility to do it all.

[499] Uh -huh.

[500] You know, we have a shared responsibility around safety, around health, around creating opportunity and healing.

[501] It's not all my responsibility.

[502] So I will ask for help.

[503] And, you know, I got tough skin.

[504] If you say no, it's okay.

[505] Uh -huh.

[506] But I hear they say, don't say no to Ms. Burton.

[507] She's going to keep calling.

[508] Yeah, I guess when I come, it's not unreasonable what I'm asking for.

[509] Yeah.

[510] And how did the needs of the women leaving prison differ from the needs that men have?

[511] What are the unique hardships that women are facing generally when they get out?

[512] So one of the things that we know is that when men go to prison, the women stay there.

[513] Anytime you see a visiting line at a men's prison, go to a women's prison.

[514] You don't see that type of line.

[515] Oh, we're the worst.

[516] So women are abandoned when they go to prison.

[517] Their children are removed, and they are just about abandoned.

[518] The man usually goes on and gets another woman or what have you.

[519] Yeah.

[520] So first of all, the woman is alone without any supports.

[521] She's vulnerable just because she's a woman.

[522] You heard what Angela said, I felt buckneck it.

[523] I had nowhere to go and I had nobody.

[524] But anybody was waiting and ready to pick me up.

[525] And then usually we as women, I feel like I'm the grounder and I'm the healer.

[526] And I'm the kind of caretaker of our community, of our health, of our well -being.

[527] And that's my responsibility.

[528] So I'm trying to get back in the role of my.

[529] my whole responsibility, but there's nothing to hold on to.

[530] And then my children are gone, and I have to earn my children back through the court system.

[531] And that's really, really difficult to do.

[532] So, you know, we have a whole campaign that we've launched called Give Me My Baby Back.

[533] We've all been there.

[534] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[535] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[536] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[537] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[538] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[539] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[540] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[541] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[542] What's up, guys?

[543] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[544] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[545] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[546] And I don't mean just friends.

[547] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[548] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[549] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[550] Kristen, my wife was telling me one specific story from your book, Becoming Miss Burton, where a young woman had left her child in the car while she ran in to get, I don't know, diapers and stuff.

[551] Yep.

[552] And got three years in prison for that.

[553] That's Ingrid Archie.

[554] Not some classes on parenting or...

[555] Not the help she needed.

[556] I think she had postpartum depression during that time.

[557] And, yeah, she got three years.

[558] She didn't get the help.

[559] Had she been in Santa Monica?

[560] Has she been white?

[561] Yeah.

[562] She'd probably got the help that she needed because I saw that happening when I was in Santa Monica.

[563] I would also argue if she was a man. If she was a man and went into the store, there's this kind of, you know, misogynistic...

[564] Yes.

[565] Responsibility that, you know, they don't make us take on.

[566] They're like, oh, yeah, you had to run in and get some, you know, whatever the hell he had to get.

[567] You know, I never thought about that, but you're right.

[568] Yeah, the bar is so low for us.

[569] Two confessions.

[570] I want to tell you something.

[571] Ingrid came back to a new way of life.

[572] She is our civic engagement coordinator right now.

[573] Right now, she's over with eight people that she is directing to do.

[574] some proposition work.

[575] We were trying to get back to vote for people.

[576] She's gotten all her children back.

[577] And when she got back to a new way of life, her 14 -year -old had been passed around the group home and the 14 -year -old was pregnant.

[578] So she's a grandma now.

[579] So she had all this stuff to take care of and overcome and to bring her family back together.

[580] But with support and her own determination, she was able to do it.

[581] I think it's so important to hear your story because I think a lot of people feel wrongly so that people don't want help, that people just want to be on their own path and that they would do those things anyway, even if you offer them help and you are proving that that's not true.

[582] If you give someone a little support, they run with it.

[583] Yeah.

[584] And I think that's really powerful.

[585] Yeah, you know, as someone who's sponsored people, it's always so heartbreaking.

[586] when you come to love them and you connect with them and then they go out.

[587] And I'd imagine in your case it's just amplified by if they go out.

[588] It's also like delaying if they'll get their kids back.

[589] It might be back to prison.

[590] You must have had your heartbroken a million times along the way, have you?

[591] I've been disappointed, but I've learned that people are human and we make mistakes.

[592] Mm -hmm.

[593] And we have to see people through that.

[594] too.

[595] None of us are perfect human being.

[596] Yeah.

[597] So a lot of times I see so many possibilities in people, but supporting them to see those possibilities is what we want to do.

[598] And they might not do it immediately.

[599] But that don't mean that we throw them away at that point.

[600] Yeah.

[601] Yeah.

[602] We might back up a little bit and let them have their experience.

[603] Yeah.

[604] But still they're praying and hoping and trying to, be a positive force, you know, you can send energy all around the world, so you send them some positive energy or what have you, but you leave room for humanness.

[605] Yeah.

[606] Now, let's go through some of the just incredible results you've had.

[607] So California has the highest recidivism rate.

[608] Got it.

[609] That's only my 11 ,000th attempt at it.

[610] At 65 % of parolees will return to prison within three years or jail.

[611] And your new way of life success rate is 78%.

[612] Wow.

[613] Or it was when I, at the time that I read that number.

[614] Yeah.

[615] That's so encouraging, right?

[616] You would think with that kind of data that you could convince people, this is the path.

[617] You know, I think people are really looking at what we've done over the past, you know, three, four decades and that they are convinced that we could and should be doing something different.

[618] I guess it's shifting the machine to understand it's a new day.

[619] So the machine doesn't get it as quickly as people do, but we're still working towards shifting that machine too.

[620] a little support can make a difference.

[621] The average cost to keep someone in prison in California is $47 ,000 a year.

[622] So you have an option to pay $47 ,000 to keep someone in a cement box to make them probably worse to ensure that the vast majority will return or the services you're providing cost a third of that.

[623] It's one third.

[624] And then the outcome is they're productive and they put money back into the system and they then help other people.

[625] And even if you've got no heart, you're the Grinch, let's say, you're the Grinch who stole Christmas.

[626] Fiscally, this makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

[627] That's a yes for me. I was like, oh, oh, I lost her.

[628] I think she disagreed.

[629] Okay, so now this is from 2015, so I'm imagining that it's even greater than this.

[630] But as of 2015, You have helped 850 incarcerated women.

[631] You had returned 160 children to their parents.

[632] What are the numbers now?

[633] Do you know them off the top of your head?

[634] I do.

[635] So over 1 ,200 women.

[636] 1 ,000.

[637] Talk about like the one day at a time, right?

[638] One day at a time you can add up to 23 years, one person at a time.

[639] Yeah.

[640] 1 ,200, isn't that mind -blowing?

[641] Yeah.

[642] And over 300 children.

[643] Wow.

[644] I mean, it's beautiful.

[645] Sometimes I walk into the house and the kids run over to me and grab me around the leg and then some of them can't hardly say my name.

[646] And you can see in their eyes that they know that I'm the reason they've got to come back with their mother and their mother is grateful.

[647] It's just beautiful.

[648] And what started with your one house, how many houses now do you operate?

[649] We have 10 now.

[650] 10.

[651] The St. Vincent DePaul Society just gave us a convent.

[652] Oh, my goodness.

[653] Yeah, that's what I said, too.

[654] They gave you a convent.

[655] Where's that at?

[656] In Montebello.

[657] We transformed that into a reentry home.

[658] It just opened last week.

[659] Oh, no, we modeled it and painted it and made it real bright and cheery.

[660] And, oh, it's beautiful.

[661] And how many people will that be able to house it?

[662] It has nine bedrooms, and it has a place for four children.

[663] So nine women and four children.

[664] Each woman has her own bedroom there, and a supervisor, she's going to come out and do a community garden because it sits on, like, acres and acres and acres of land.

[665] Can I park an RV there?

[666] You can park an RV there.

[667] Yes.

[668] It's got a huge parking lot.

[669] Can you tell the story when we talked the other day on our Zoom?

[670] You gave us an example of some of the day -to -day things, like the woman who needed a cell phone.

[671] I think it's important to hear.

[672] the little steps it takes for people to get what they need.

[673] And when you told us that, Chris and I were talking about it for a long time after.

[674] So can you share that story?

[675] Yeah.

[676] So it was a woman, Spanish -speaking woman.

[677] She just knows a little English.

[678] And she had dropped her cell phone in the toilet.

[679] As we all do.

[680] She was scared.

[681] She had made a mistake.

[682] And she was about a week out of prison.

[683] And her friend had brought her the cell phone.

[684] And she was scared to tell the friend that she had dropped the cell phone in the toilet because she thought she'd get punished.

[685] And she was just really, really terrified.

[686] So I let her know that it's okay to make a mistake and that punishment was not going to happen to her.

[687] That punishment was a behind her.

[688] What she had now was support.

[689] And I took her to the store.

[690] And at the store, the guy says, well, the cheapest phone that we have is $180.

[691] The phone that she dropped in the toilet was $329.

[692] So she reaches into her purse and she pulls out the money and she's ready to pay for a new cell phone.

[693] And I says, wait a minute.

[694] Does that phone have a warranty?

[695] And the phone had a warranty.

[696] The one she dropped.

[697] The one she dropped.

[698] So just those types of things happen all the time, all day long.

[699] People are overwhelmed just walking into a store.

[700] Oh, it drives me nuts.

[701] I get in these arguments with folks, and it's like, well, why can't they do X, Y, and Z?

[702] Why can't this person blank?

[703] And it's like, well, I'm going to guess that when your dad took you to the hardware store, you watched him interact with people, and you learn some things.

[704] And if you don't...

[705] Everything's new.

[706] Yeah.

[707] Everything's new and different and really, really fast.

[708] So they have to learn the computer.

[709] They have to learn all of the gimmicks.

[710] You know, women say, oh, I just got a cruise.

[711] I'm fixing to go on the cruise.

[712] Girl, you ain't fin to go on a cruise.

[713] They're fin to get your credit card information.

[714] Don't give it to them.

[715] You know what I mean?

[716] That's tough.

[717] Yeah.

[718] And then a language barrier.

[719] I mean, if you put me in Moscow and I got to buy a phone, I went to college.

[720] I don't think I can do it, you know?

[721] Right.

[722] Yeah, that's incredible.

[723] So yeah, these tiny little life skills you've got to help people and have the patience to walk them through it and hold their hand.

[724] And sometimes that's all someone needs.

[725] We have to care enough about the well -being of our fellow.

[726] Oh, man. And I mean, we could put it in the, like, the word of patience, but we just have to care enough about one another.

[727] Yeah.

[728] Now, your daughter was 15 when your son died, and I imagine that, that relationship was probably strained by everything that's happened.

[729] And how is that today?

[730] It's good.

[731] Oh, man. Yeah, it's really, really good.

[732] We're going up to Palm Springs for our birthday on September 24th.

[733] So her birthday is the 26th of September.

[734] My's is the 27th, and we're going up to Palm Springs for about a week and chill out.

[735] Hopefully, a spa is open.

[736] Yeah.

[737] And then I have a granddaughter, and all of us are going up together.

[738] And is she have any interest in being a part of your organization, a new way of life?

[739] Well, when I first incorporated, she was a board member.

[740] Oh, okay.

[741] And she did that for a while, about seven years.

[742] She caters for us She brings food to us She likes to cook So that's how she gets involved She actually wants to run Be a part of the HR department But you know Sometimes you family and business Ain't a good Yeah So I want to stay being A good relationship with her So Yeah you want to be a mom I want to be mom Yeah I don't want to be boss Yeah yeah yeah That gets sticky I'm currently my daughter's teacher And that's not going very well, to be honest.

[743] I spent all day trying to get her to fill out three pieces of paper.

[744] It was...

[745] Yeah.

[746] Really quick, just to go over, because I really, really want people to go to...

[747] It's a new way of life .org.

[748] Yeah, that's the website?

[749] Yes.

[750] And people can donate or get involved there.

[751] Yes.

[752] A new way of life .org is our website.

[753] You can go there and see all the things that we're doing.

[754] One of the things I'm really excited about is building out this national network.

[755] What we've done at a new way of life is we have found a solution to reducing recidivism and reuniting families and bringing folks back into the community in a way that keeps all of us better off.

[756] So I've developed the skill set and expertise, and now I'm training people.

[757] We're 17 states, two countries, and we're helping people to model reentry in their respective communities.

[758] We need these places all over the nation.

[759] And some services that people might not even realize that people need help with that you're providing is there's legal issues, right?

[760] So trying to get people's records expunge maybe so they have access to different jobs.

[761] We do that free.

[762] You do that free.

[763] We do that free.

[764] We'll help you get a license if you're being barred from a license because of a criminal record.

[765] We have free legal services.

[766] We help with family, child reunification.

[767] We have attorney and three staff members that help you get your children back.

[768] all of our services are free.

[769] And you have a distribution center, right, where you've given out millions of dollars worth of household goods.

[770] Yeah, not anymore.

[771] About two years ago.

[772] Yeah, about two years ago, we stopped the distribution center, but we used to have our own bed, bath, and beyond, right?

[773] And what we distributed, oh, about $3 million of products every year.

[774] It was robust.

[775] You have programs to teach people.

[776] Community organizing, you have leadership development classes, and then policy advocacy.

[777] What's that?

[778] So, like, we're trying to now pass Proposition 17.

[779] It was a policy.

[780] The legislature passed it to go on the ballot to restore the rights for people to vote.

[781] So we want some policy around family reunification.

[782] Women go to prison, and when they get home, they have no more parental rights.

[783] We want to stop the clock on child reunification timeline, what they call fast track adoption.

[784] We want to stop the clock on that.

[785] So that would be some policies that we would introduce.

[786] But, you know, trying to make a better world.

[787] There's some police accountability policies that are in the legislature now.

[788] Some police training policies in the legislature, trying to do things the way we do it in America through policy to get it done.

[789] Now, I just want to end with.

[790] this observation, which is you are capable of so much.

[791] It's really astounding.

[792] And I think many of us, I suffer from this and it's shameful.

[793] You know, I'm in a position where I could do probably a ton.

[794] And yet I feel overwhelmed at times by the different social problems we have.

[795] Or I will feel like I don't have a big effect.

[796] And to see you build this thing from nothing with everything against you with a criminal record with all these things.

[797] Have you shocked yourself at what you're capable of?

[798] Yeah, you know, sometimes I might be getting introduced and by the time the introduction's over, I'm almost crying.

[799] Sure, sure.

[800] You know, just to hear what has happened and what people are saying and it's just a gratitude that swells up in me. Yeah.

[801] Well, that's the real self -esteem, right?

[802] That's the real one.

[803] That's the real one.

[804] You know, for people who are listening, I just hope someone would think what you've accomplished and what deficit you are up against and just how much you've been able to do one step at a time, learning about something else, tackling that little by little.

[805] This thing grows into this amazing organization.

[806] I just hope everyone feels as inspired by it as I do because it's truly, truly remarkable.

[807] And I have a lot of that there's people like you and that they're not all like me. I'm so grateful to you.

[808] I bet you're a good guy.

[809] You're a good guy.

[810] You know, sobriety transforms you.

[811] Thank you, Susan.

[812] It's a real honor.

[813] I'm in awe of you.

[814] And I hope people go to a new way of life .org.

[815] We commit that we would like to make some donations.

[816] So you should expect our support and put me in your Rolodex.

[817] I'll be one of those people.

[818] We're at your service.

[819] Yes.

[820] I'd love to be.

[821] be of service to you.

[822] Thank you.

[823] Okay.

[824] Well, thank you so much, Ms. Burton.

[825] All right.

[826] Thank you.

[827] Talk to you later.

[828] Bye.

[829] Be well.

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