412 - Smooth As A Cucumber

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hartstark.

[3] Hi, that's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] Bye.

[5] And that's that.

[6] How's it going?

[7] Good.

[8] How are you?

[9] Good.

[10] Good.

[11] It was a rainy Los Angeles day.

[12] Ugh.

[13] I love it so much, the rain.

[14] The rare rain in Los Angeles.

[15] Okay, I have to ask you, did you watch?

[16] this fucking documentary on Netflix that just came out American nightmare.

[17] I have not.

[18] I've only seen people talking about it and freaking out about it.

[19] It is so troubling.

[20] And it's from right by your hometown, I think, right?

[21] It's Vallejo, right?

[22] Yeah.

[23] Yeah.

[24] It's so upsetting and troubling and incredible and unbelievable.

[25] And I cried at the end, which I don't ever do.

[26] Yeah.

[27] I totally.

[28] crying at the end.

[29] But yeah, you have to watch it and then we'll talk about it.

[30] It's a real life gone girl type of story.

[31] I have definitely heard of that story.

[32] And when the actual like investigation started where they were like, how did this happen that this wasn't handled?

[33] It's infuriating.

[34] And it's just the example of like, this is why women overwhelmingly have a hard time reporting their sexual assault because we're not believed.

[35] It's just.

[36] you're going to scream and pull your fucking hair out.

[37] Yeah.

[38] Also, because it's so surreal.

[39] Like, the things that are being described when it's actually, you can tell that the genre is like turning on itself because when you hear in the trailer, you're like, oh, it's this guy, he's guilty.

[40] Or you're doing the thing where you're trying to pick what's going to happen and kind of like settle it in the trailer.

[41] And they're just like, no, no, get ready.

[42] I mean, it's only two parts of the show.

[43] I mean, oh, my God.

[44] It was awful.

[45] And this woman is so resilient, Denise, who the story's about incredible.

[46] I was over busy watching the end or finishing up this current season of Fargo, which I loved and thought was great.

[47] I gave up.

[48] I gave up on it.

[49] Yeah.

[50] You love it?

[51] Is it good?

[52] Yeah.

[53] It was great.

[54] Okay.

[55] Here's a thing these days, though.

[56] I don't know what gets anybody through anything anymore.

[57] Like, how many screens can we hold up in front of our faces to, act like everything at the store doesn't cost $10.

[58] And what that means to people who don't have $10.

[59] Like, what the fuck?

[60] It's like, to me, that's, I'm watching everything kind of clasping my hands together.

[61] Like, and also, I know right now I'm turning away from very important things.

[62] Absolutely.

[63] It's horrible.

[64] That's life.

[65] It's just the constant need to turn away and an inability to.

[66] Well, and this kind of it rising where it's like year by year since 2016, it's just been more.

[67] to turn away from where now it's like, can true crime do it anymore?

[68] I don't know.

[69] Right.

[70] I don't know where my escape level needs to be at.

[71] Yeah.

[72] Speaking of, did you see that Los Angeles Innocence Project has accepted Scott Peterson as a client?

[73] No. Yeah.

[74] They said there's new evidence that might change the outcome of his conviction.

[75] Hmm.

[76] I know.

[77] Well, you have to consider that people that work at a place like that know what they're talking about right right the innocence project has to be nothing but respectable right so like there's got to be something that we don't know yes on this show there's always a lot we don't know jesus christ on this show there's that's the given who us whom whom i think though i can still remember parts of you covering that story yeah not that long ago There's parts of it I just will never get out of my head.

[78] This is the issue with when we know these stories well.

[79] Right.

[80] That it's very easy to then just go, nope, impossible.

[81] Yeah.

[82] But what about this and this and this if you know all the information?

[83] I guess they're focusing on the fact that there was a break -in across the street from the Peterson household the day Lacey went missing.

[84] Wow.

[85] That's somehow involved in it.

[86] There's not a lot of info out there.

[87] Well, and if it's the idea of everything must be investigated and if somebody gets railroaded, which we know in this day and age is very possible and the Innocence Project is simply saying we must at least look into it, then I agree.

[88] Totally.

[89] What fun thing has happened to you this week?

[90] I think this is.

[91] Yeah, this is.

[92] This is.

[93] Do you want a fun thing?

[94] Do you have a fun thing?

[95] I could think of one if you tell me one first.

[96] Well, that's the whole key to thinking of one is someone else is telling you one.

[97] Let's see.

[98] I got a chemical peel.

[99] my face.

[100] Yes.

[101] Here we go.

[102] That's exciting, right?

[103] Like, did it hurt?

[104] Was your face numb?

[105] No, it's just kind of tight and itchy and starting to peel, which is fucking wild.

[106] It's like a hardcore one because I have melasma, which is the hyperpigmentation that's really hard to treat.

[107] So I'm fucking so excited about this.

[108] I love the recovery process and peeling and looking a little bit unhinged.

[109] Sure.

[110] And that is an excuse to be like, oh, I'm so sorry.

[111] I can't.

[112] I couldn't possibly.

[113] I did go yesterday to a football thing, like a friend's house for football, but it was like people that are so low key that I was like, I'm just going to tell them what happened and they're not going to care.

[114] It wasn't like a big party, but I definitely like saw myself in a mirror a couple times and was like, oh my God, I'm just talking to this person about like my dog and I look like him from a horror movie.

[115] That's almost like a next level social anxiety practice where you're like, Hey, maybe I don't have this at all if I can convince myself to do this.

[116] But also, that's like quality of friendship.

[117] Right.

[118] Maybe these are my people that I was like, there is not a single fucking person there that I was like, this person's going to judge me. So that's nice.

[119] Dream football game.

[120] Yeah.

[121] Just a dream.

[122] Tori, our host, our host, made twice baked potatoes with fucking buffalo chicken on top of them.

[123] Ooh.

[124] So that was a win, win.

[125] That is like a perfect football game snack or dinner, however you had it.

[126] That sounds amazing.

[127] We got a lot of messages about people needing to tell us about the baked potato trucks in their community.

[128] They did.

[129] And I thought that it's really beautiful that that's out there for people like, hell yes, leave your house, get a baked potato, get a twice baked potato, throw some buffalo chicken on there, make it your own.

[130] And it makes me so happy that this is.

[131] the kind of podcast where people are, it's true crime comedy, but really quickly, let me tell you where you can get a baked potato next time you're in Detroit.

[132] Let's focus on the fun fundamentals.

[133] F -U -N.

[134] What about you?

[135] What's your plus?

[136] I was going to say I went to get my hair done.

[137] That's cute, Bob.

[138] Thank you.

[139] Right when the Zoom started, I was like, oh, I should have at least brushed this.

[140] It's cute.

[141] It's kicky.

[142] It's very kicky.

[143] Thank you.

[144] It also, this was the hair I had all through the 90s.

[145] It's very 90s.

[146] Yeah.

[147] Now, Vince must be thrilled.

[148] Oh, yeah.

[149] Vin's and your dad are texting every week about football.

[150] Next week, your dad's team and Vince's team are playing each other.

[151] Oh, shit.

[152] And I was like, because it's in San Francisco, I was like, go pick up home gym and take him.

[153] And he's like, we wouldn't get along.

[154] It's like, oh, it's like, maybe I'd go to his house and watch it, but we're not going to the.

[155] No, he wouldn't go to a stadium because, first of all, and you can talk to anybody in the Bay Area, the stadium's now in San Jose, which is insane.

[156] And it's just like, It used to be right outside in Daily City or right outside.

[157] Now it's kind of far down.

[158] But also, my dad doesn't like go anywhere because he needs like the first seat.

[159] Right.

[160] You know, he needs special circumstances and he's still not okay with the fact that he needs that.

[161] Yeah, yeah, asking for help is hard.

[162] But if Vince flew up, took a, you know, $79 Southwest flight and just rang the doorbell, you know, my dad would lose his mind.

[163] Shut up with a six pack and some brots.

[164] Oh, my God.

[165] Barbecuing in the rain.

[166] No, they'll bring it in the house.

[167] They'll bring the grill in the house.

[168] They'll right over the, put sticks on hot dogs and stick it right.

[169] Your dad, the firing stove.

[170] Yes.

[171] Right.

[172] Would be fire a time.

[173] I just saw on TikTok, they're all about that man who has been a season ticket holder for like 66 years.

[174] Yeah.

[175] Oh.

[176] Crazy.

[177] I love it.

[178] The greatest.

[179] They have Taylor Swift.

[180] We have Eminem.

[181] Yeah.

[182] I mean, apples to oranges, really.

[183] And we have, I don't know, who do we have, Mark Zuckerberg?

[184] Who did the 49ers get to show up?

[185] What do they have?

[186] They've got punk rock, I guess.

[187] Should we do exactly right corner and then start the show now that we've landed on a high note?

[188] Oh, real quick, before we get into the exactly right corner, we want to let you guys know about one of our favorite true crime podcasts in the world going on tour.

[189] That's right.

[190] Everybody's favorite true crime podcast criminal hosted by the legend.

[191] Phoebe Judge is celebrating its 10th anniversary with a new live show.

[192] So it features seven brand new stories, never before seen photos and videos, and a behind the scenes look at how criminal is made.

[193] So Phoebe and co -creator Lauren Spore are coming to 13 cities, including Los Angeles, on February 7th and New York on February 14th.

[194] Some people call it Valentine's Day.

[195] Oh, how romantic.

[196] So visit this iscriminal .com slash live for tickets.

[197] Tell us how it is.

[198] I can't wait to see them live.

[199] I mean, how exciting is that?

[200] What a great show.

[201] Epic.

[202] We'll slide right over into exactly right highlights.

[203] So now that all the strikes are behind us, guests are returning to that's messed up in SVU podcast.

[204] So this week, Kara and Lisa are joined by actor Alison Psycho, who plays Elliott Stabler's daughter Kathleen to discuss blood an episode from 2005.

[205] Fun and hilarious comedian Beth Stelling is Michelle Boutteau and Jordan Carlers' guests on adulting.

[206] Also email adulting questions at gmail .com for the opportunity to have your questions answered on a future episode.

[207] Yeah.

[208] If you have any questions, they're talking about what it is to be an adult over on that podcast.

[209] They have a lot of great advice.

[210] But then sometimes it's just we have basic stuff where it's like, where do I keep my rubber bands?

[211] Right.

[212] And like how do you store batteries without having them catch on fire?

[213] That's a, I don't know.

[214] What's the question I want answer.

[215] If I'm going to a football party that's serving something as delicious as twice -baked potatoes with buffalo chicken on top, what should I bring?

[216] Right.

[217] How do I even up the score there?

[218] Definitely.

[219] Also, comedian Andy O 'Anseo joins Kurt and Scottie over on bananas to discuss the world's weirdest headlines and go to the website Scotty's getting petting.

[220] Dot dog to track Scottie's mission to pet 100 dogs in 2024.

[221] That's a person who is digging it out and making it happen in 2024 with the good vibes.

[222] Like, that is a great example of resolutions, right?

[223] I'm going to pet 100 dogs in 2024.

[224] Yeah.

[225] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[226] Absolutely.

[227] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[228] Exactly.

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[231] That's right.

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[238] Connect with customers in line and online.

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[240] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[241] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

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[243] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[244] Goodbye.

[245] All right.

[246] Your first this week, yeah?

[247] Is that right?

[248] I think so, yeah.

[249] Okay.

[250] This was one of those stories where I remember talking about it a while ago.

[251] and then, you know, we're so well produced these days.

[252] We're so far ahead of the game.

[253] And also so well produced that my researcher, Marin, just had a baby.

[254] I know.

[255] Just had a baby.

[256] And I still have my research and nothing has been, not a trick has been missed.

[257] So, Maron.

[258] You know, it's crazy?

[259] Mine too.

[260] Oh, that's right.

[261] Allie had a baby.

[262] Allie had her baby first.

[263] Yes.

[264] And Jay.

[265] Elias, proud papa, they all had babies.

[266] And things are still smooth as a fucking key cucumber.

[267] At this company, we had four different people have babies in the last like three months.

[268] It's crazy.

[269] So Marin McLaughen, my researcher, and first time mother.

[270] Congratulations on your baby.

[271] I'm so excited for you.

[272] So anyway, this is one of those stories that I knew and know.

[273] And I'm like, how do I know this?

[274] And then as I was reading through it, some of the research is from the great TV show, A Crime to Remember.

[275] Oh, that was such a good show.

[276] It's such a good show.

[277] So that's how I recognized it.

[278] Maybe you will too.

[279] So we start in 1955 on the Gold Coast of Long Island, which is an extremely moneyed area.

[280] I'm going to start using that term, where New York City's Blue Blood Elite keep palatial second homes and throw parties for their just as obscenely rich friends and frenemies.

[281] Some of the families who own Gold Coast estates have familiar names, like the Vanderbilts, the Aster's, the Morgans, the Woolworths.

[282] I didn't realize the Woolworths were like fancy.

[283] Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[284] Yeah, department store money.

[285] That's right all that good popcorn money.

[286] But back in the early 20th century, the last name Woodward held the same kind of renown.

[287] The Woodward family made their fortune in banking, and they sat at the tip top of New York High Society.

[288] And on the night of October 30th, 195, 35 -year -old Billy Woodward and his 40 -year -old wife, Anne, actually were attending a dinner party being thrown in the honor of their good friends, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

[289] So that's how high society these people are.

[290] Yeah.

[291] But the Woodward's sterling reputation will be forever marred by a dramatic turn of events at their own Long Island estate that same night A shotgun blast, the police on a stakegrounds, and a body lying lifeless in a bedroom doorway.

[292] This is the story of the murder of Billy Woodward.

[293] Wow.

[294] Do I know this one?

[295] I think it might slowly become clear.

[296] So the main sources used for this story today are a book by a writer named Susan Brody called This Crazy Thing Called Love, an episode of the investigation discovery series, a crime to remember, called Who Killed, Mr. Woodward?

[297] And the book, Deliberate Cruelty by writer.

[298] Rosanne Montillo, and the rest are in our show notes.

[299] So we're going to start off with Anne Woodward's life.

[300] She's born in 1915, and her name when she's born is Angeline Crowell.

[301] She lives on a farm outside Pittsburgh, Kansas.

[302] Did you know there was a Pittsburgh, Kansas?

[303] No, I did not.

[304] I did not either.

[305] Back in Pittsburgh, everybody knows her as Angie.

[306] After her parents' divorce, Angie's raised by her mom Eiffel, who does anything she can to make ends meet.

[307] She starts as a school teacher, then she operates a taxi company out of the back of a local movie theater.

[308] And she reportedly also runs a speakeasy out of her own small house during prohibition.

[309] Nice.

[310] Author Susan Brody points out that, quote, at the age of 15, Angie worked as a cocktail waitress out of her own home.

[311] Wow.

[312] Yeah.

[313] That's one of my favorite Midwestern things is going through neighborhoods and then there's a house that's also a bar.

[314] Is that a thing?

[315] Uh -huh.

[316] I know it was back then, but that's the thing still.

[317] Well, someone showed me a picture of one in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

[318] Also, they have them in Wisconsin.

[319] Oh my gosh, you guys, please comment and tell us about the local literal neighborhood bar.

[320] House bar.

[321] House bar.

[322] Is it still a thing?

[323] Like, what's the story?

[324] Who runs it?

[325] I want to know everything.

[326] Is it truly like a grandma coming out of a kitchen and going and walking behind a small bar in her living room?

[327] Because that's what it was explained it to me as.

[328] just think of all the like light up beer signs everywhere and like right yeah but it's so charming okay i need to know more about this yes i love it okay so this family doesn't have much but angie has big dreams she idolizes joan crawford because joan crawford also spent part of her childhood in kansas but angie actually the pictures i seen her she looks more like loren becal she's really a gorgeous woman and of course she dreams of making it big as a starlit in hollywood And after graduating high school, she gets a sales job to Kansas City Department store where a male executive invites her to model for the store's print ads.

[329] And when she does that, he sends those photos to a friend who runs a modeling agency in New York.

[330] So basically, this is the sign Angie's been looking for.

[331] It's like, I knew it.

[332] Now somebody else has confirmed it.

[333] Here we go.

[334] So against her mother's wishes, and without any promise of any work or anything, Angie moves to New York City.

[335] Damn.

[336] Yeah.

[337] She goes for it.

[338] She changes her name to Anne Eden because she thinks it sounds more refined and she starts to book some modeling jobs.

[339] And then she gets cast in some radio shows and she gets like big roles in radio shows.

[340] And then she starts working as a chorus girl in a high end Manhattan club.

[341] And there she finds herself rubbing elbows with the rich, the powerful and the culturally relevant men of New York City.

[342] She's even rumored to have have had a brief affair with Joan Crawford's ex -husband, actor Franchot Tone.

[343] Wow.

[344] So she's really going after it exactly the way she pictured it in her head.

[345] Yeah.

[346] Just that kind of sad thing of like, this is what I want.

[347] Therefore, I'm going to take your sloppy seconds and make something of it.

[348] Oh, yeah.

[349] Oh, men.

[350] Oh, the youth.

[351] But then Anne makes a much more fateful connection with an older, very rich married man named William Woodward Sr. William Woodward Sr. first spots Anne while she's working her chorus girl gig.

[352] The two of them begin to have an affair until William, who is petrified that there'll be a scandal that it'll get found out, he decides to end things.

[353] But he wants to keep Anne close.

[354] So he decides that Anne would be good for his 22 -year -old son, Billy.

[355] No. Uh -huh.

[356] Because Billy's very inexperienced with women, is 22 but reportedly a virgin and William Sr. is afraid that that might mean that Billy is a homosexual so he realizes and could teach Billy a thing or two about the ways of seduction and as author Roseanne Montillo puts it quote, turn him around.

[357] That is so twisted and it's gross.

[358] There's so many levels the onion of grossness.

[359] Where do we start unpacking this?

[360] layers of grossness the past was such a different time truly here's the real kicker at the end of this page there anne agrees to this arrangement so anne's like sounds good she got something out of it i bet i'm sure and also he's a really old man so it's not like she was in it for love in the first place she was like yeah i'm here to play the game let's do this thing so before long anne spots billy at the club that she works at she recognizes him from a picture his dad showed her.

[361] So after she's done on stage, she goes out into the audience and she meets him and they have a drink together.

[362] Billy is clearly and immediately attracted to Anne.

[363] She's five years older than he is.

[364] She has tons of confidence.

[365] More importantly, she's completely different than any woman Billy has ever known or the women that he grew up around.

[366] Unlike the stuffy debutante's that he has known his whole life, Anne is sensual and funny and flirtatious and outgoing.

[367] and all the things you're not supposed to be in high society.

[368] Billy doesn't seem to know about Anne and his father's past.

[369] And then the two soon develop a real connection and eventually and probably forbiddenly they fall in love.

[370] Now that's not Daddy's original plan.

[371] So it's definitely not what Billy's parents have planned for him.

[372] He's their only male heir, right?

[373] They're the uppermest of crusts.

[374] Those are the people that have essentially arranged marriages.

[375] It's obvious William Senior's conflict of interest, creepily obvious, but Billy's mother, Elsie, she's disapproving of the relationship simply because she's an elitist and a snob and she's like, no way.

[376] To Elsie Woodward, Anne is the kind of woman high society men have a fling with, but do not marry.

[377] Little does she now.

[378] Right?

[379] She's surrounded in this situation.

[380] Someone with Anne's background is simply not up to Elsie's standards, which are sky high, in a 1955 article in Life magazine talks about Elsie Woodward's status in high society, saying, quote, she has long reigned as one of the city's most distinguished hostesses and still reigns as perhaps its most distinguished dowager.

[381] So she is kind of a legend, and clearly they're not going to be like, and whoever you love, son, bring her on home.

[382] Writer William Norwich says on a crime to remember, because you know, on that show they do individual interview.

[383] with people, he says on this topic, quote, when Elsie saw Anne Eden come into her court, there was only one reaction that was possible, N -O -C -D, that was everyone's favorite expression in those days, end quote.

[384] And what he's talking about, N -O -C -D stands for, not our caliber, darling, or not our class, dear.

[385] Ouch.

[386] It's your worst fear.

[387] Rich people are gossiping about you.

[388] And like in fucking, is that an anagram?

[389] No. In initials.

[390] It's slang.

[391] You're not even worth the whole sentence.

[392] No. It's very upstairs downstairs.

[393] How about G .T .F .Y. Go, no, G .F .Y. Gold Coast forever, bitches.

[394] I can't spell.

[395] Here's the thing, though.

[396] It's not just Elsie.

[397] It's everybody.

[398] Like no one is having Anne in this group of people.

[399] Many of New York's upper crust are horrified that a bottle blonde, a Midwestern girl is trying to infiltrate their ranks.

[400] And, I mean, that's really how it's seen, of course.

[401] You watch the Gilded Age, right?

[402] We've talked about the Gilded Age.

[403] It's like that thing.

[404] I don't think we have, but I was thinking the exact same thing.

[405] Yeah.

[406] Where it's like even the super rich, if you have new money, then you're not in.

[407] Like it's that crazy and old and it has a lot of rules, I guess.

[408] I'm tight, yeah.

[409] I like talking about it as if I know anything about it.

[410] where I'm like, I'm absolutely from the people that come in the servant's entrance and give everybody Typhoid.

[411] Yes, for real.

[412] I get everybody to tell you.

[413] I'm the typhoid class.

[414] And among the naysayers, this is kind of fascinating, is Truman Capote.

[415] No. Author Deborah Davis says that around the time Anne and Billy start dating, Capote, quote, was writing breakfast at Tiffany's.

[416] He was invited to everyone's part.

[417] parties.

[418] When he saw Anne Woodward, he really saw her as, in his words, a phony.

[419] Ouch.

[420] He despised that about people, end quote, which is, I think it's a good lesson to learn as you go through life when there's people of a real problem with other people like that.

[421] It's like, well, what would that be saying about Truman Capote?

[422] It's like, oh, yes, if we all remember to kill a mockingbird, like Truman Capote is poor.

[423] He was raised by his grandparents.

[424] He's from, you know what I mean?

[425] He's not a blue blood.

[426] He's not the New York elite.

[427] Right.

[428] He's an interloper.

[429] So he's seeing another interloper going, it's her.

[430] Everybody focus on her.

[431] He can't be him.

[432] Anyway, despite the open and hostile judgment of the relationship, Ann and Billy do get married.

[433] And at first, they actually seem very happy.

[434] And then, of course, as we know, the cracks begin to show.

[435] And partly, it's because Anne is trying to transcend social classes.

[436] So she is forced to pretty much change everything about herself.

[437] her appearance the clothes she wears her demeanor of course those holly but aspirations like are way gone and she has to pretend to like decor and furniture and things that she's probably never cared about or known about and as stifling as this transformation sounds it's something and genuinely wants to be doing she it's a fair trade off to her wow she comes from so little she understands and craves the security and the comfort and of course the luxury that comes with extreme wealth.

[438] And so she tries desperately to fit in.

[439] That's the heartbreaking part where it's just like, oh yeah, now you're actually going to try to do this thing that is going to make it so it doesn't work.

[440] Or it's going to make it so people who don't like you, like you, where it's like people who don't deserve your time and energy, you need to force them to like you to fit into your life.

[441] Like what a sad endeavor.

[442] Tough.

[443] You know?

[444] Yeah, rarely works.

[445] And especially I think with people like this who are truly pretty much, much a cult at this point.

[446] It's so inside.

[447] Totally.

[448] And then going against that, Billy selfishly wants her to stay the woman that she was when he met her.

[449] He doesn't want her to become stuck up and prudish like the other elite women of New York society.

[450] He wants her to be the person he was when he met her, which was young, hot, and always available to him.

[451] So author Deborah Davis says, quote, Billy was an inexperienced youth sexually.

[452] He was imagining a never -ending honeymoon with his extremely desirable wife who had once taken him places he never imagined going in his sexually repressed world.

[453] Once Anne was married, she was more dedicated to being respectable than she was to being a playmate, end quote.

[454] And what choice does she have?

[455] She doesn't get to be all things to all people.

[456] Like you can't play the Marilyn Monroe part while you're trying to fit into.

[457] that level of society.

[458] Look, I know I've tried it.

[459] So by the time Anne's pregnant with the couple's first child, Billy's already having affairs.

[460] So it's that quickly.

[461] He eventually becomes less and less secretive about these relationships.

[462] So right in front of Anne's face, he's dancing with other women at balls.

[463] He's flirting with them at dinner parties.

[464] He carves time out of his very busy schedule to meet with his mistresses like he just doesn't give a fuck.

[465] and Anne isn't the only high society woman dealing with a cheating husband in this specific era turning the other cheek to a cheating husband is basically a part of the society lifestyle even Elsie Woodward herself who's an extremely powerful woman in New York must endure her husband's constant affairs so that's just the way it is yeah so the problem is that anne isn't passive she's not reserved she does not want to accept billy's disrespect or lack of affection toward her, obviously.

[466] But she also doesn't want to lose the security that comes with being Billy Woodward's wife.

[467] So she's genuinely worried and scared that she could lose everything if Billy left her for another woman.

[468] And she has real reason to be concerned about Billy divorcing her as his friends and his family encourage him to do just that.

[469] In fact, Truman Capote isn't even the only writer who disapproves of the Woodward's relationship.

[470] Billy's good friend Ian Fleming, creator of James Bond, right, is among the growing number of people who try to convince Billy he could do better than Anne.

[471] Yeah.

[472] So Anne is fighting to keep her husband interested.

[473] Sometimes she is playing the perfect doting constantly available wife and other times she openly flaunts her attractiveness and shows him that she can get men herself because why wouldn't you?

[474] Then in 1952, it's kind of a nice turn for her.

[475] She's in her late 30s.

[476] She's named one of six, quote, great American beauties by Vogue magazine.

[477] Wow.

[478] Mm -hmm.

[479] Susan Brody points out that, quote, the other five women were all younger than Anne and born to great wealth.

[480] So she kind of was like, she beat the odds.

[481] Yeah.

[482] And is also voted best -dressed woman in sports by Sports Illustrated magazine for the outfits she wears to horse races.

[483] Because Billy owns racehorses.

[484] Mm -hmm.

[485] Horse races.

[486] Race horses.

[487] Yeah, he owns racehorses.

[488] So they're at the races all the time.

[489] And she's basically getting press for how she looks at these horse races.

[490] She even sits for a portrait by Salvador Dali, who tells Anne that her beauty, quote, makes his mustache vibrate.

[491] Gross.

[492] All right, pervert.

[493] Also, you know what's funny is that portrait looks like if I tried to, like, Photoshop what I thought a Salvador Dali portrait of, like, a 1915.

[494] 55 socialite would look like.

[495] It's the weirdest thing.

[496] It's like a really bizarre background where like there should be melting clocks, but it's just a lady standing there in a dress.

[497] So meanwhile, the Woodward's marriage is becoming increasingly toxic.

[498] The couple is starting to have blowout fights in public.

[499] One particularly violent scene playing out after Anne finds a lipstick stained handkerchief in her husband's pocket.

[500] According to a 1955 Time magazine article, Anne scratched Billy's face, quote, until it bled.

[501] It's just making me think of, because it's like 195, so it's like a little bit earlier than mad men where it's just like, oh, men could do whatever the fuck they wanted all the time.

[502] This guy was super rich.

[503] Yeah.

[504] And he could just do whatever he wanted.

[505] So like, what would he fucking care?

[506] It's just insane.

[507] The two are so overcome with obsessive jealousy that they each hire private investigators to follow the other.

[508] so they're like that bad and as it does in the cycle of abuse and billy's more explosive episodes are followed by a short -lived honeymoon phase then that period ends and then the cycle repeats itself again so as this relationship becomes more and more volatile they actually even have separation agreements drafted but neither of them will ever actually sign so it's like a lot of threats and a lot of noise but then at the end of the day it seems like they both don't want to want to get divorced.

[509] So now I'm going to take you back to the night of October 30th, 19155, which was the night they were at the dinner party for the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, and they come home.

[510] Nobody really knows what happened after that.

[511] Basically, the story picks up when the police arrive at the scene and they find Billy Woodward dead in his bedroom doorway.

[512] Anne is sobbing hysterically and holding her husband's dead naked body in her.

[513] her arms.

[514] When she's questioned, she insists that this is what happened.

[515] That around 2 a .m., she heard her toy poodle bark.

[516] The poodle's name's sloppy, but we can't get into that right now.

[517] Okay.

[518] All right.

[519] I'm going to let that go.

[520] We have to.

[521] We have to keep going.

[522] Anne claims she saw, when the dog bark, she saw the outline of a man walk past her window, followed by a noise that convinced her someone was breaking into the house.

[523] Anne and Billy sleep in separate bedrooms off of the same hallway.

[524] They're about 20 feet from each other.

[525] So Anne tells investigators that after hearing those noises, she gets out of bed and she grabs a shotgun that she had in her room nearby.

[526] She takes it out in the hall and in the dark she sees a man appear in the front of Billy's door so she fires twice.

[527] And only afterwards does she realize she hadn't shot an intruder.

[528] She'd shot her husband.

[529] Now, unlike most people who have just shot and killed someone, Anne is not subjected to intense questioning.

[530] She is certainly not taken down to the police station.

[531] Instead, she's quietly whisked away to a luxurious Manhattan hospital suite to compose herself in private.

[532] So as investigators dive deep into this case, it slowly becomes clear what happened.

[533] Billy was definitely shot to death by Anne.

[534] There's no one arguing that.

[535] But they don't know if it was a real accident or if it was a real accident or if it was a real accident.

[536] murder, staged to look like an accident.

[537] And, of course, is adamant that she thought Billy was an intruder, and this isn't some wild paranoia of hers or, like, a random lie.

[538] There had been incidents of a so -called prowler in the months leading up to Billy's death.

[539] Several wealthy residents of this specific part of Long Island had had their homes broken into.

[540] According to Susan Brody, the prowler had been, quote, sleeping in their pool cabanas and taking items from their kitchens, gun closets, bedrooms, and pool houses, end quote.

[541] The prowler had stolen food and jewelry and other odds and ends and often left messes behind signaling to the homeowners that he'd come right in under their noses.

[542] The prowler became something like a boogeyman spreading fear and anxiety throughout Long Island's Gold Coast elite.

[543] Investigators speak with all of the 58 party guests that mingled with the Woodward's on the night that Billy was killed.

[544] And they suggest that nothing out of the ordinary happened between the couple at the dinner party.

[545] However, those guests did confirm there was a ton of discussion about the prowler that night.

[546] Oh, shit.

[547] It seemed to be the absolute top of the Woodward's minds.

[548] Anne and Billy had just found discarded food scraps and shotgun shells all around their property.

[549] And it made them worry that the prowler was interested in their home in particular and that he'd somehow gotten his hands on one of their firearms.

[550] So Anne would later tell the DA that she and Billy agreed to, quote, arm ourselves and be prepared for the prowler, end quote.

[551] And that's why Anne had her shotgun just sitting by the bed.

[552] So when I first read that, I was just like, oh yeah, because you just keep a gun in the corner or not, not usually common, I would say, on the Gold Coast.

[553] But both Woodward's were actively prepared to engage in a standoff with an armed intruder.

[554] That's like what they were thinking about.

[555] of course firing a shotgun in a dark house even if there is a home invasion taking place is extremely dangerous the room for error is huge and the woodward's young children were also in the house so it seems totally insane but anne's doctor would later note how irrational the couple had become about this he says quote separately the woodwords were able to keep themselves under control but when they were together they infected one another with the sort of tension each might be feeling healing at the moment, and it built up tremendously.

[556] It was like that with everything.

[557] And that obviously was what happened in the case of the prowler.

[558] Between them, they built up their fear and determination to catch the prowler into an obsession.

[559] And when Mrs. Woodward was startled by the noise, grabbing the shotgun and shooting was a conditioned reflex, end quote.

[560] I could say that.

[561] I know.

[562] Now that people are actually like talking it through.

[563] Yeah.

[564] So given his social prominence, the death of Billy Woodward is a very big deal, but for nearly a month afterward, the Woodward family, headed by the now widowed Elsie, is completely silent on it because Elsie does not want there to be uncontrolled media attention, rumors, or society page gossip about her son's death.

[565] And Elsie's efforts to control the situation are sometimes drastic.

[566] She actually tells Anne that her two young sons will be shipped off to a European boarding school because, according to Debra Davis, quote, Elsey did not want her grandchildren to have a mother who murdered their father.

[567] That would have been the ultimate scandal, end quote.

[568] Which is true, can't argue it.

[569] Anne herself does not appear in public or give any statements about the shooting.

[570] It's unclear if this is by choice or if she's encouraged to do so by her mother -in -law.

[571] Either way, Anne doesn't attend Billy's funeral.

[572] Instead, Time magazine reports that she sends a floral arrangement to the service, and it includes a ribbon that says, quote, from Dunk to Monk, which were their nicknames for each other.

[573] Interesting.

[574] But as much as the Woodward's would like to control the narrative around Billy's death, the story inevitably breaks when Anne is called to testify before a Nassau County Grand Jury, and all the details about the night of her husband's death are dragged out in the open.

[575] At the hearing, Anne is described by the New York Times as looking, quote, haggard and in anguish, end quote, and she tells the same story that she first told investigative.

[576] she thought someone had broken into her house.

[577] She confused her husband with what she believed was the prowler, and she pulled the trigger.

[578] Despite all the violent and volatile history and the Woodward's relationship, the grand jury ultimately clears Anne of any wrongdoing.

[579] Yeah.

[580] You kind of have to, right?

[581] I guess, yeah.

[582] I mean, if there's no evidence.

[583] And they were talking about it obsessively that night.

[584] It's like the very people who would judge her and be probably the cruelest or the coldest to her are the ones going, no, this really was a thing.

[585] This was an issue And she could have used it as an excuse And killed him But there's no way to prove that There's no way to prove it My only thing that's still a dangling Sorry to say a dangling Chad Why would I say a dangling Chad this far?

[586] Because of the dog's name The dog name just fucking Sloppy cast a shadow Over this story I want to talk about sloppy For 20 minutes And I was like That's right when I'm explaining What the fuck is happening I can't do it I can't You had a time There was a time earlier but it's passed.

[587] If somebody's looking for a pet name, they want to name their dog or cat sloppy.

[588] Why not?

[589] Such a good name.

[590] Well, well, but here's my dangling Chad, as I was saying.

[591] Two shots, not one.

[592] Didn't pull the trigger and then go, holy shit.

[593] Did it twice.

[594] Now, who knows?

[595] But she thought it was him until she turned the lights on.

[596] She thought it was him, but that you would have to be so sure.

[597] I don't know.

[598] And she thought he had one of their guns, too.

[599] She thought he was armed.

[600] True.

[601] If it's real, I'm just playing over.

[602] Yeah, yeah.

[603] And also, like, she's probably so freaked out when's the last time she's held a gun.

[604] I will say my thing would be that if I were really scared, someone were prowling, if there was a thing going on, I would insist on sleeping in the same bed as my spouse that night.

[605] Yeah.

[606] That's my only thing is I wouldn't want to be alone.

[607] Right.

[608] That's a little bit of suspicion to me. Maybe he fucking snored to high heaven and she's like, well, I can either sleep afraid or not sleep.

[609] Right.

[610] And like, they're fighting that.

[611] bad that there's this thing happening that they're all keyed up about and yet they're not solving it, which is kind of like a good metaphor for their relationship where it's like, what are you guys doing?

[612] Just solve it.

[613] What's happening here?

[614] Yeah.

[615] Also, just one of those kinds of things that's like reversal of fortune even, where who will ever know?

[616] Like, it's just a true mystery.

[617] You can't know.

[618] That's where deathbed confessions come in.

[619] Well, actually, that's where this comes in, which is really compelling.

[620] So Billy's death is chalked up.

[621] to a tragic accident, and Anne is ultimately vindicated when the prowler is finally caught.

[622] Hmm.

[623] He's a German immigrant named Paul Wirthes.

[624] He lives on the streets, and he is finally arrested for all these break -ins all around Long Island.

[625] He will eventually admit that he was, in fact, at Billy and Anne's house on the night of October 30th.

[626] Holy shit.

[627] So he really was a prowling.

[628] Yep.

[629] He was the prowler, and he was a prowling at their house.

[630] He says that he climbed a tree onto their second floor terrace before entering the house through an open window.

[631] He admits that he made a loud noise as he stumbled into the house, and then he heard a gunshot.

[632] So because he heard a gunshot, he got scared.

[633] He climbed back out under the roof.

[634] He jumped off the terrace, and he ran away.

[635] Oh, so she's totally telling the truth.

[636] Yes.

[637] Wow.

[638] Okay.

[639] So even though Anne has already been exonerated by the grand jury and by Paul Worth's admission, that should arguably exonerate her in the court of public opinion, as writer Mark Meredith puts it, quote, Anne's detractors, and there were many, mainly due to her less than blue blood, were happy to let the rumor mills roll to the tune that she had murdered Billy and that she was dropped like a hot rock from the society.

[640] She was so eager to be a part of, and quote.

[641] So they didn't care that the real guy got caught and was like, yeah, that's literally exactly what happened.

[642] Oh my God.

[643] Rumors swirled that a jealous Anne had killed her husband in cold blood and that Elsie had pulled some strings to get Paul Worth's into the picture.

[644] Wow.

[645] By this logic, Elsie needed someone to supply the perfect explanation that would prevent Anne from becoming a convicted murderer which would sully the Woodward name forever.

[646] So that's the rumor, but there's absolutely no proof to the rumors.

[647] In fact, the proof is going the other way that they found the guy and the guy was like, that's exactly what happened.

[648] Yeah, yeah.

[649] But what happened in the Woodward House on October 30th, it was almost certainly an awful accident.

[650] But it doesn't stop people from piling on Anne and nobody more notoriously than Truman Capote.

[651] It is unclear why there's so much bad blood between Anne and Truman Capote.

[652] Roseanne Matillo theorizes that has something to do with how similar they are.

[653] That's sorry, that's what I said before.

[654] But this is Roseanne Matillo's theory.

[655] Yeah.

[656] She writes, quote, both had ever come hard scrabble, unsteady, fraught childhoods.

[657] Both had cajoled, clawed, and charmed their way into the elite circles that they sought to enter.

[658] Both were vulnerable and mean.

[659] Wow.

[660] Whatever the case may be, they didn't get along.

[661] Capote would eventually claim that he had once approached Anne in a restaurant, notably long after he had already decided that she was a phony and claims that Anne called him a gay slur.

[662] Could have very well happened, although that's nothing Anne ever admits to.

[663] So in return, Capote starts referring to Anne by a nickname that actually ends up catching on Mrs. Bang Bang.

[664] Oh, rough.

[665] So then in the mid -1970s, Capote's working on a novel that includes an incredibly unforgiving chapter on Anne Woodward that's thinly disguised as fiction.

[666] Debra Debra De, and this is something Truman Capote was known for, And he would, like, make friends and then, like, turn on people and then to write incredibly shitty stuff about them.

[667] And everyone would know that's who he was writing about.

[668] Like, he did it to a bunch of people.

[669] Debra Davis, who puts it very bluntly, says, the Capote, quote, depicted Anne the way he saw her as a gold digging whore, end quote.

[670] Damn.

[671] Yeah.

[672] God forbid, as a woman, you try to do the things that men are doing.

[673] So in 1975, this specific chapter is set to run in Esquire magazine.

[674] And someone sends Anne an advanced copy.

[675] When she reads it, she's devastated.

[676] There's a line that literally says, quote, once a tramp, always a tramp, end quote.

[677] Then in what any reader would immediately assume is about Billy's death, Capote writes, quote, of course it wasn't an accident.

[678] She's a murderous, end quote.

[679] So Anne learns the exact date that Esquire is going to publish this chapter, which is on October 25th.

[680] She makes a note in her diary.

[681] alongside her scribbling she writes quote I must be far away and on the morning of October 9th 57 year old Anne Woodward is found unresponsive in the bedroom of her 5th Avenue apartment after having taken a cyanide pill holy shit it's reported that just a week later Truman Capote calls up one of Anne's friends not to express condolences or regret he wants to dig up dirt and learn more about the circumstances of her death But when he asks this friend about Anne, she simply says, quote, she was a sad person.

[682] Elsie, who is 93 years old at this time.

[683] So Elsie's still around, shows the same level of compassion that Truman Capote showed.

[684] After Anne's death, she will say, quote, well, that's that.

[685] She shot my son and Truman just murdered her.

[686] And so now I suppose we don't have to worry about that anymore.

[687] Your grandchildren are going to read what you've said about their mother.

[688] Yeah.

[689] And they're not going to be very fucking stoked about that.

[690] It's so shitty.

[691] It's so awful.

[692] But it also feels to me like that's a coping mechanism of a woman who has absolutely no idea how to deal with or process grief or tragedy or her own feelings or place in that.

[693] Or doesn't understand empathy for people who aren't exactly like her in some way.

[694] Or has never felt.

[695] empathy from other people while her husband cheats on her with the same girl that he sets up their son with.

[696] I wonder when they found out about that.

[697] I mean, could you imagine?

[698] No. The answer's just no. Just no, and I don't want to talk about it anymore.

[699] Summarizing Anne's rise and fall, Deborah Davis says, quote, Anne wanted to be famous, to be rich, to be in high society.

[700] She got all of that.

[701] Her prayers were answered, and it was her absolute undoing.

[702] She was destroyed by that, end quote.

[703] At her bedside, Anne kept a notepad with the letterhead that read, quote, don't forget.

[704] And underneath, she had written two words and Woodward.

[705] And that is the story of the shooting death of Billy Woodward.

[706] Wow.

[707] What age, just full on tragedy.

[708] And it seems like we're talking about 1900, but it was literally in 1955.

[709] Yeah, it does.

[710] So those parties, a lot of quailudes.

[711] Oh.

[712] Wow.

[713] great job.

[714] So fucked up.

[715] Thank you.

[716] So fucked up.

[717] I'm going to tell you a story.

[718] I could introduce it in one of two ways.

[719] On one hand, it's a naval wartime tragedy that took place just 34 days before the end of World War II.

[720] Okay, fine.

[721] However, the other way I could explain it is that I'm about to tell you the story of the deadliest shark attack in U .S. history.

[722] Oh, oh, I think I know what this is.

[723] It sure is.

[724] This is the story of the sinking of the U .S. U .S .S. Indianapolis, and the U .S. Navy's botched response.

[725] Oh, you're grabbing your cheeks and shaking your head.

[726] If you know the movie Jaws, the speech from Jaws, this is what it's about.

[727] Oh, my God.

[728] Good one.

[729] Good one.

[730] Thank you.

[731] I'll tell you.

[732] The story comes from the speech given by Quint in Jaws.

[733] His character tells a harrowing tale about an enemy's missile, leaving him in hundreds of other shipwrecked, stranded at sea and clinging for dear life in a days long, shark feeding frenzy.

[734] And that's why he hates sharks so much.

[735] Yeah.

[736] And that's understandable.

[737] That's giving your character motivation and subtext.

[738] There you go.

[739] Look at you.

[740] A writer's glass from Karen.

[741] Look.

[742] The main sources used in today's story include an article from the Washington Post titled, How Did a World War II Japanese Subcommander Help Exonerate a U .S. Navy Captain by Daryl Austin and an e -book available on the Naval History and Heritage Command website.

[743] written by Richard Holver and edited by Peter C. Lubke, and the other sources can be found in our show notes.

[744] Black eyes, like a doll's eyes.

[745] You should read it, then do it right now, perform as a monologue.

[746] Yeah, everyone go watch Jaws after this.

[747] So, here's some background.

[748] It's all, you know, naval stuff.

[749] Background stuff.

[750] Yeah, launched on November 7th, 1931 and commissioned on November 15th, 1932.

[751] The USS Indianapolis is one of just two U .S. Naval Portland.

[752] class heavy cruisers, which are large war ships designed to travel long distances at high speed.

[753] After the Japanese, of course, attack Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, the USS Indianapolis joins the war effort.

[754] She contributes to multiple campaigns over the course of the next four years, including protecting U .S. aircraft carriers near New Guinea in March 1942, sinking an enemy ship belonging to Japan in January 1943, and serving as the flagship for Admiral Spurance during the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

[755] But the USS Indianapolis's most consequential contribution to World War II would come on July 26, 1945, so towards the end of the war, in the form of a top secret mission, the overseas delivery of the core components of Little Boy, which is the atomic bomb headed for Hiroshima.

[756] Let's start with the days leading up to this delivery after sustaining a kamikaze hit near Okinawa on March 31st, 1945.

[757] The USS Indianapolis lands at the Navy Yard on Mayor Island in Vallejo, California.

[758] What are the fucking chances?

[759] Mm -hmm.

[760] That's crazy.

[761] It is weird.

[762] Didn't the Golden State Killer hit there too?

[763] In Vallejo?

[764] The Zodiac definitely did.

[765] Right.

[766] That's what I'm thinking of, yeah.

[767] So the ship's captain, Captain Charles B. McVeigh, the third, and his crew of 1 ,195 sailors remained in the Bay Area through mid -July, 1945, getting the ship repaired.

[768] So a Pennsylvania native from a Navy legacy family, McVeigh graduated from the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland in 1920.

[769] He worked in Washington, D .C., serving as the chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee of the Combined Chiefs of Staff, which is the highest military -intelligent unit making all wartime policy decisions during World War II, before taking command of the Indianapolis in November in 1944.

[770] So high up, high ranking, smart dude knows what he's talking about.

[771] He got a silver star working for the Indianapolis.

[772] It's the third highest military award for bravery.

[773] So like, this guy's not fucking around.

[774] On July 12th, 1945, while in the Bay Area waiting for the Indianapolis to be fixed, Captain McVey gets word that the Indianapolis is to be used for this top secret mission once it's fully repaired.

[775] The mission is so secret that not even Captain McVeigh knows what it is.

[776] I don't even tell the captain of the ship.

[777] All he knows is that he's going to be given some materials that are to be delivered to Tinian, one of the northern Mariana Islands, just north of Guam.

[778] So at 12 noon on July 15th, 1945, the USS Indianapolis receives these materials at Hunter Point, and the ship sets sail the next day on July 16th, 1945, completely unaware that the cargo on board is the makings of an atomic bomb.

[779] It feels like you've got to give someone a heads up, right?

[780] sense that they wouldn't.

[781] I guess it's like if it's all in separate pieces that can't be combined to explode.

[782] I'll make sure.

[783] That makes sense.

[784] So they reached their destination on the morning of Thursday, July 26th, and successfully deliver the cargo.

[785] They make a short trip south to Guam, arriving the next day, and they refuel and stuck up on ammunition and other supplies.

[786] So then on the of Saturday, July 28, 1945, the USS Indianapolis makes a straight shot west to Laitay, which is a provenance in the Philippines.

[787] The journey should take them three days, so they're projected to arrive on July 31st, 1945.

[788] So everything's gone smoothly up into this point, but it turns out, as the vessel makes its trek to Léte, a looming threat lurks below the waters, watching them a Japanese submarine I -58.

[789] So in the middle of the night on July 29th, 1945, the sonar man aboard the submarine is patrolling the Philippine sea when he picks up on a strange sound coming from about six miles away, he hears the rattling of dishes and realizes it's from a ship galley.

[790] So in the submarine, they realize there's a ship because of the rattling of dishes.

[791] How creepy is that?

[792] That's not good.

[793] Not good.

[794] No. So he flags the sound for the submarines commander, which is commander Mokitsura Hashimoto.

[795] The commander orders his crew to stock the vessel, and once they get close enough, they identify it as an enemy ship.

[796] Moments later, at 12 .04 a .m. on July 30th, 1945, the commander orders his crew to fire six torpedoes at the USS, Indianapolis.

[797] Just two of the torpedoes hit their mark, but it's more than a number.

[798] have to do serious damage.

[799] On board the Indianapolis, 20 -year -old U .S. Navy Corporal Edgar Harrell had just gone to bed when he felt the blow of the missiles.

[800] The strikes landed in the middle of the vessel near the ship's fuel tank, causing an explosion that kills all the power.

[801] He's unable to see much in the darkness, but he can hear the water seeping in and feel it rising beneath his feet.

[802] As Corporal Harold later recalls, quote, the first hundred yards of the ship was under.

[803] We knew the ship was doomed.

[804] We knew that our ship was going.

[805] going to leave us, and it's going to take us with it unless we get off.

[806] So like immediate evacuation.

[807] Captain McVeigh, meanwhile, is trying to assess the damage, but the ship's rapidly sinking and the damage communication systems are also not working, so he can't really tell what's going on.

[808] So he has his men try and send out distress signals, but ultimately it's of no use.

[809] It's at this point that Captain McVay orders crew to abandon ship, staying on board himself into the last possible moment to make sure as many people as possible are evacuated.

[810] In just 15 minutes, the massive heavy cruiser is completely swallowed up by the sea.

[811] And it takes roughly 300 men with it.

[812] So that leaves the remaining 895 sailors adrift in the water.

[813] The survivors hang on to anything and everything at their disposal, life vests.

[814] There's some rafts and there's also debris that they used to stay afloat.

[815] ordinarily the Navy tracks the position of all vessels at sea so they can react in times of distress, but because the USS Indianapolis was conducting top secret work, the vessel wasn't tracked, and they also hadn't been granted an escort, which McVeigh had asked for, because they didn't want to, like, draw attention to the fact, like, this is an important vessel by giving them an escort.

[816] So basically, this means that no one's coming to their rescue.

[817] So the 895 stranded sailors drift apart in two large groups.

[818] The first group, which includes Captain McVeigh, is situated northeast of the wreck just outside the grasp of a strong current, and they luckily have rafts to save them from having to tread water and being submerged, but they're still left with very little food and clean water.

[819] The second group is carried southwest by the current, about seven to ten miles away from Captain McVeigh's group, and they're protected by nothing.

[820] but they're life vests.

[821] So they're not even on rafts or anything like that, which is like, God, the cold -ass water, like open sea.

[822] Oh, my God, leave me alone.

[823] So these life vests, unfortunately, are only meant to stay inflated for up to 64 hours.

[824] That's like they're not supposed to be fucking carting you around.

[825] They're not long term.

[826] Yeah, it's emergency only.

[827] Yeah.

[828] So with no one on the way to save them, it's just a matter of time before the vests give way.

[829] some of the sailors don't even make it past the first day either succumbing to injuries they sustain in the wreck or losing their minds to the brutal conditions of bombing at sea which you don't think about that being like a mind fuck too right yeah some men pass away and slip out of their vests into the water below like they take them off on purpose they're like i'm not doing this anymore yeah other survivors claim those vests to keep themselves afloat too like they're just looking for anything to keep them alive yes Of course.

[830] When night falls that first day, July 30th, a small group of three or four men swim away in search of food, water, or help.

[831] And they returned by morning saying the Indianapolis didn't actually go down and that they spent the night aboard the ship drinking fresh milk, tomato juice, and water.

[832] And so stunned and full of hope, another group swim off in search of the ship.

[833] Like, oh, my God, we're saved.

[834] But it turns out the first men had just experienced an awful hallucination.

[835] No, like a group hallucination.

[836] Like that's how...

[837] Bad.

[838] There'd only been a day.

[839] That's how your mind, you know, with thirst alone is like, you know, maddening.

[840] Yeah, that's wild.

[841] So those men who swim off in search of the actually sunken ship, they die of starvation and exhaustion.

[842] They're never seen again.

[843] Yeah.

[844] With every passing moment, the air pressure in the vest decreases if a sailor in a vest isn't actively swimming to help keep himself afloat he could doze off his head falling forward and putting himself at risk for drowning in order to fend off exhaustion the men have to take turns sleeping keeping watch over each other to keep each other alive can i just say i'm slightly like winded and sore from sitting on a couch for an hour yeah just thinking of that where it's like you know it's fun times when you're like treading water in the pool or whatever totally for a day in like salt water and in like scary huge waves or whatever the hell's going on no food no water you're injured treading water is hard like that shit we all know right it's like yeah people train to do water polo for fucking months and months to be able to tread waters a little bit yeah but you never have to play a game of water polo after you've survived an explosion yeah like you didn't no one gets exploded into the water polo pool that's the craziest part yeah you'd protein loaded earlier in the day God damn.

[845] Yeah, it's so awful.

[846] So as sailors work to fight starvation and exhaustion, just through sheer power of will, another danger approaches, your worst fucking nightmare.

[847] Suddenly the men spot dorsal fins emerging from the water's surface and encircling the group.

[848] That's right.

[849] Sharks.

[850] Like, what the fuck?

[851] Can you?

[852] And also, like, the protocol has fallen apart.

[853] So all of the things that all of these men are trained to do.

[854] that they know to do, their strengths, all the ways that they are strong, which is like this unified thing.

[855] They're just now put into like a scenario that is never, you know, it's like it just isn't.

[856] Yeah, you don't learn that at basic training, like what to do when you're circled by fucking predators in the water.

[857] And trapped in, no one's coming to help you.

[858] Just a nightmare.

[859] Like this story is bad enough, but I think the sharks are like the, what make it so epically insane.

[860] So Corporal Harrell later recalls, quote, you look, the life jacket goes under, unquote.

[861] So like basically you're watching a guy and the person just gets fucking pulled under just like that.

[862] Bloody remains of his fellow sailors would then bob to the surface.

[863] The sharks picking men off each time they come around.

[864] Every now and again, blood -curdling screams echo from the distance, another sailor, overcome by delirium, starvation, or shark attack.

[865] Three days passed before Corporal Herald and his group come across a crate of rotten potatoes.

[866] It's the first food they've seen since the wreck.

[867] They remove the rotten parts the best they can and share whatever's left.

[868] It isn't much, but it keeps them going in the midst of this seemingly never -ending horror.

[869] Finally, four days later, four fucking 24 -hour periods.

[870] At about 10 .25 a .m. on August 2nd, 1945, 24 -year -old U .S. pilot, Lieutenant Wilbur Chuck Gwyn is flying over the area conducting a search and reconnaissance mission when he spots something in the water that isn't the enemy ships he's been looking for, so he wasn't even looking for them or the ship, but rather a fellow U .S. military personnel floating in several groups across a roughly 200 mile span of ocean.

[871] So he's not even, it just comes across a disaster.

[872] Yeah.

[873] A gigantic disaster.

[874] Lieutenant Gwyn radios the base saying, quote, many men in the water.

[875] and asking for backup, as he's unable to fly his aircraft low enough for rescue.

[876] His base sends a second pilot, Lieutenant Adrian Marks, who flags the incident for another nearby ship, the USS Cecil Doyle, roping them into the rescue mission as well.

[877] So fucking finally.

[878] Arriving on the scene first, Lieutenant Marks is able to lift 56 men to safety.

[879] Hours later, the USS Cecil Doyle shows up and finishes the job.

[880] It takes a full 24 hours to pull the remaining survivors out of the water.

[881] Oh, but they managed to do it.

[882] And when all is said and done, originally the crew had been 1 ,195 men.

[883] That's how big the crew was.

[884] The amount of people left who get pulled out of the water and are still alive, 316.

[885] Oh.

[886] That's a lot.

[887] So while alive, the survivors are in rough shape.

[888] Their tongues are swollen from dehydration and saltwater poisoning.

[889] Some require surgery and heavy antibiotic doses to avoid having their shark bites and other wounds infected.

[890] Their bodies are so spent from sweating water, they can barely sit up on their own, let alone stand.

[891] Many men have lost anywhere from 20 to 25 pounds in a matter of three and a half to four days.

[892] That's how arduous it was.

[893] I'm sorry, I just realized when you said that about the antibiotics, that there were men who were attacked by the sharks and not killed.

[894] Right?

[895] Yeah.

[896] Just bitten and terrorized, but not killed.

[897] That's, oh my God, I didn't even think of that.

[898] I know.

[899] Unfortunately, the Navy, okay, so this gets fucked up, fucked upper.

[900] Unfortunately, the Navy made mistakes at every turn that proved fatal for the crew of the USS Indianapolis.

[901] In addition to denying Captain McFay, the escort through enemy waters that he requested, Navy leadership also denies ever receiving a distress signal from the Indianapolis, despite reports from individual servicemen saying that they did.

[902] While the ship wasn't being formally tracked, Navy leadership did know that the Indianapolis was scheduled to run.

[903] arrive in Laité on July 31st.

[904] They knew it was starting here and going here on this day.

[905] The day had come and passed, and nobody searched.

[906] No questions were asked.

[907] The ship just wasn't there.

[908] Moving on.

[909] Perhaps the biggest blow of all, though, is that the Navy knew through a top secret code -breaking program that there were enemy submarines positioned along the Indianapolis's route.

[910] And that knowledge never appeared on the intelligence report that Captain McVeigh received on board.

[911] So the war finally ends, and with it the American victory.

[912] The Navy officials want to do anything they can to protect the U .S. military's image, so they cover their tracks and find themselves a scapegoat for the tragedy of the Indianapolis.

[913] And that scapegoat is Captain McVeigh.

[914] Shortly after his rescue, Captain Charles McVeigh is court -martialed on two counts, failing to order his men to abandon ship and hazarding the ship, or basically carelessly putting the ship in harm's way.

[915] He's court -martialed for those two things.

[916] The first charge doesn't stick because the Indianapolis went down so quickly.

[917] And the only accounts from other sailors is that Captain McVey did everything possible to get his men off the ship.

[918] So that doesn't stick.

[919] The second charge, however, is hammered in by prosecutors.

[920] They argue that Captain McVeigh was ordered to steer his ship in basically in zigzags.

[921] You know how they tell you to run from a person with a gun in zigzags?

[922] They're like, well, we told you to do that with the ship in order to avoid enemy fire.

[923] and you didn't do it, and so you put your entire crew at Jeopardy.

[924] That's what they tell him.

[925] And to prove their point, the prosecutors have a very shocking surprise witness.

[926] Commander Mokitzora Hashimoto, the fucking captain of the submarine who took down the Indianapolis, they call as a witness.

[927] In his testimony, Commander Hashimoto confirms the prosecution's argument.

[928] Captain McVeigh had not been zigzagging, but in another surprising twist, Commander Hashimoto undercuts the prosecution's entire argument by stating that the zigzagging actually wouldn't have made a fucking difference to him at all.

[929] Yeah.

[930] The ship was entirely defenseless and as such a change of its sailing pattern wouldn't have changed the way Hashimoto fired the missiles and it wouldn't have helped the ship avoid the fire.

[931] So kind of miraculously, this once enemy comes forward and is like, this is kind of bullshit, you know?

[932] I wonder like if it was part of the treaty or whatever where you have to come and do this thing and get us out of this or whatever.

[933] And he was like, I have no choice in this, but I'm also not going to lie or pretend that that.

[934] Because when you said that, and it's like, how the hell would I know?

[935] But that idea, it's like, it's a submarine firing up.

[936] So like that idea of zigzagging, it's not firing from below.

[937] It's like it can perfectly laser in on exactly what you're doing.

[938] Plus ships move so slowly.

[939] Why would that matter?

[940] You just, to me, it seems like a bunch of bullshit.

[941] it's yeah totally yeah so in his own testimony captain mcvay also owns up to the fact that he did not zigzag but said he wasn't definitively instructed to do so and by his own account he was told to zigzag at his discretion weather permitting the real crime the defense argues was the navy's failure to alert captain mcvay about the fucking actual presence of enemy submarines on his route yeah even still captain mcvay is found guilty of hazarding his ship up to this point he is the only captain in the history of the U .S. Navy to be court -martialed for the sinking of a ship during wartime.

[942] The conviction doesn't come with any jail time, but it does drastically reduce his rank, destroy his reputation, and ruin his lauded military career by that point.

[943] In 1949, Captain McVeigh retires from military service without his reputation making a recovery.

[944] The surviving members of his crew find a completely unfair that McVeigh has been forced to shoulder the blame for the sinking of the Indianapolis.

[945] Many allowed him as a hero for doing what he could to save the crew, but many others take his conviction at face value and hold him responsible for the loss of their loved ones.

[946] For years, letters pour into McVeigh's mailbox from family members of the fallen crew members, shaming him for failing to protect their sons.

[947] One letter in particular reads, Merry Christmas, our family's holiday would be a lot merrier if you hadn't killed my son.

[948] So not great.

[949] In 1960, a surviving crew member named Giles McCoy approaches McVeigh about petitioning the Navy to reverse his conviction.

[950] McVe doubts it'll work, he wants him to drop it, but four years later, in 1964, he changes his mind and he gives McCoy's blessing to pursue an overturn.

[951] But as the years go by, McCoy's and other survivors' efforts prove fruitless, the guilt becomes too much for McVeigh to bear, and on November 6th, 1968, at the age of 70, Captain Charles Butler McVeigh the third takes his own life.

[952] It isn't until 28 years after Captain McVeigh's death, so now we're in 1996, that the calls to overturn his conviction gained some traction.

[953] As sixth grader named Hunter Scott from Pensacola, Florida chooses to research the USS Indianapolis as a part of a school project.

[954] Like, where are you now?

[955] That is incredible, right?

[956] For real.

[957] Yeah.

[958] This sixth grader conducts 150 survivor interviews and reviews as many as 800 documents pertaining to the incident.

[959] Wait, he conducts the interviews?

[960] Yeah, this sixth grader.

[961] I'm sorry.

[962] So the horrifying stories of men sitting there waiting to be eaten by sharks.

[963] Yeah.

[964] That you're telling that story to a sixth grade boy.

[965] I guess so.

[966] Or maybe it was just all about the captain.

[967] But Jesus Christ, like I'm just saying, even if there was a chance.

[968] of some of those stories trickling in where it's like, oh, my God.

[969] He had to be a mature, precocious kid, right?

[970] And I would think that he would have a grandfather in the military who understood the importance and the tradition and all the different things.

[971] Yeah, and no doubt a really great teacher because, you know, that needs help to.

[972] So incredible, right?

[973] So Hunter School Projects helps raise enough awareness to earn Congress's attention.

[974] In a joint effort of the surviving crew members and Captain McVeigh's sons named Kimo and Charles, and Senator Robert Smith of New Hampshire, agrees to support them and introduces a resolution to exonerate Captain McVeigh.

[975] The chairman of the Senate Armed Forces Committee and former Navy Secretary, Senator John Warner, of Virginia, refuses to bring the resolution to the Senate floor for a vote, which stalls her efforts.

[976] Okay, but here's where it gets crazy.

[977] commander Mukisora Hashimoto fucking appears once again to make one final contribution to clearing McVeigh's name.

[978] He writes Senator Warren a letter saying, quote, our peoples have forgiven each other for that terrible war and its consequences.

[979] Perhaps it is time your peoples forgive Captain McVeigh for the humiliation of his unjust conviction, end quote.

[980] He knew all along.

[981] He knew all along.

[982] Yeah, for sure.

[983] And so with that, the resolution to exonerate Captain McVeigh is voted on, passes, and is signed by President Bill Clinton on October 12, 2000.

[984] 13 days later, on October 25th, 2000, Hashimoto passes away.

[985] Oh.

[986] It was like his last fucking heroic act.

[987] Oh, my God.

[988] Despite Congress's exoneration, it takes until July of 2001 for the U .S. Navy to officially clear the charges from McVeigh's official record.

[989] Survivor Giles McCoy is overjoyed by the news and said, quote, Captain McVeigh was not guilty of anything, McCoy says, except for the fortune or misfortune of war.

[990] So in 2005, an event is held for the 60th anniversary of the USS Indianapolis is sinking.

[991] Commander Hashimoto's daughter and granddaughter, Sonaya Hashimoto, Aida, and Outsko Aida, respectively join the event to support the survivors.

[992] Oh, my God.

[993] They're not sure their presence will be taken well, understandably.

[994] But the survivors and their loved ones welcome the women with open arms.

[995] Together they all sing, God bless America, demonstrating an unprecedented display of healing and forgiveness.

[996] And that is the story of the sinking of the USS Indianapolis.

[997] I cannot believe that that story, as horrible as the one thing I knew, about that story, that the sharks circling up wasn't the worst thing.

[998] The idea that the Navy would try to pin it a series of missteps and mistakes and whatever.

[999] Clear missteps and mistakes that they made and then pin it on him.

[1000] And resulted in the deaths of a thousand or, you know, 700 plus crewman.

[1001] I don't know what the terminology is.

[1002] And they would try to say that captain did it they punished him for surviving almost for surviving and yeah getting through a scenario that nobody should ever go through ever right right to the degree where the captain of the submarine on the other side is like this is insane what are you doing totally god unbelievable story yeah that's crazy I know so wild so wild wow I'm glad I know that yeah right yeah because it makes me feel better about like humanity.

[1003] Yes.

[1004] Let's believe in the human spirit, shall we?

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] Let's do that for 24.

[1007] Why not?

[1008] I'd love that.

[1009] I'd love that.

[1010] Yeah.

[1011] Thanks for listening, you guys.

[1012] Hey.

[1013] Hey.

[1014] Hey.

[1015] Hey, guys.

[1016] We believe in you and your human spirit.

[1017] That's right.

[1018] And just let's really focus on football.

[1019] Twice baked potatoes.

[1020] Let's focus on the starches that are going to get us through this wintertime.

[1021] Hell yeah.

[1022] Oh, you know what I just saw on TikTok, a really fascinating thing.

[1023] We're your house is cold and drafty and you're, you're in a cold snap area, you can replace your electrical socket cap things, you know, the backing on it.

[1024] You can get a new one that keeps like drafts from coming into your house.

[1025] I never thought about the draft coming through there.

[1026] Yeah, because we live in California.

[1027] But like when it's a fucking minus seven outside, you want all of that shit blocked up.

[1028] And you can get ones that like block it for you.

[1029] Anyway, if anybody needs that piece of information.

[1030] Yeah, I love it.

[1031] Stay warm, stay aware.

[1032] Be careful for the ice.

[1033] Where there's, what about the videos?

[1034] Those videos of people eating into the ice.

[1035] Oh, the horror.

[1036] The humiliation.

[1037] It's so humiliating.

[1038] And there's people that are just like, well, I guess I'll go crawl on the sidewalk to try to go get something to eat or drink down the street because this is the situation.

[1039] But I saw a guy who was trying to walk on like icy steps.

[1040] And one of the tricks they say is at least, this is one TikTok video.

[1041] Don't bet the house on this.

[1042] You put tube socks on the outside of your shoes.

[1043] Oh, that's smart.

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] Speaking of tube socks, if you have a bat by the side of your bed for when bad things happen, put a tube sock on that.

[1046] Because when you swing it at someone and they try to grab the bat from you, they grab the tube sock instead.

[1047] This episode brought to you by Tube Sox.

[1048] Tube Sox, they'll keep you alive.

[1049] Save your life.

[1050] Stay sexy.

[1051] Don't get murdered.

[1052] Good night.

[1053] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1054] This has been an exactly right production.

[1055] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1056] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1057] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[1058] This episode was mixed by Liana Skolace.

[1059] Our researchers are Marin McClashin and Ali Elkin.

[1060] Email your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[1061] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1062] Goodbye.