Episode 13-The line is drawn.

[0] Welcome to True Spies, the podcast that takes you deep inside the greatest secret missions of all time.

[1] Suddenly out of the dark, it's a bit in love.

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[9] Hello, and thank you for listening to a History of World War II podcast, episode 13, the beginning of the end of peace.

[10] After some major technical difficulties, the podcast is back.

[11] The website is back.

[12] For now on, the link for that will be worldwar2podcast .net.

[13] And I want to apologize to everybody who's had to wait.

[14] But I've got everything figured out now when I'm back, and it won't happen again.

[15] So let's move on.

[16] So it's September of 1938.

[17] By this time, Hitler has already reoccupied the Rhineland.

[18] He's taken Austria, and now it's time for him to take Czechoslovakia.

[19] He's all ready to go, and he knows that Britain and France can't or won't lift a finger to stop him.

[20] But then he's surprised by Chamberlain offering him what he's trying to take by force.

[21] So they push it to the very edge of war, or at least that's how it seems to the German...

[22] to the British people, to the French people, but Hitler knows that Chamberlain's not going to fight.

[23] But still, Hitler reasons with himself why fight when he can get it for free.

[24] So the four leaders, Chamberlain, Hitler, Mussolini, and Deladier of France all meet in Munich September 29th, and they're going to work this out.

[25] Now the four of them are going to get together right after noon.

[26] that day.

[27] So Hitler meets with Mussolini beforehand to work out a strategy.

[28] And Hitler basically says, I want a quick agreement or I'm going to use force because I've got my troops in place.

[29] Anyway, I'm ready to go.

[30] Chamberlain did not seek out Deladia before the meeting because, to be honest with you, he wasn't going to let anyone get in his way of giving Hitler everything he wanted to avoid war.

[31] Not that a pre -meeting conference would have done any good.

[32] According to most witnesses that day, the French leader walked around pretty much in a daze.

[33] So they met at 12 .45 p .m. The meeting was pretty much anticlimactic.

[34] There was no real tension.

[35] There was no leader, just the four people coming together and the unfolding of events.

[36] Hitler started off by saying that he was going to march into the Sudetenland October 1st, no matter what they talked about that day.

[37] So, of course, this was a violent act.

[38] So the goal of that day was to make him marching in an unviolent act.

[39] So then Mussolini spoke up, and he said he had a proposal that he would like to discuss with everyone.

[40] But in reality, the proposal had been written by the German Foreign Office weeks before.

[41] So Mussolini goes over the proposal, and Zeladia welcomes the proposal as practical.

[42] And after hearing it, Chamberlain said that the ideas that he had in his head were pretty much along those lines, so he could pretty much agree with that.

[43] But then Chamberlain asked who would compensate the Czech government for all the public property that was going to be lost.

[44] He was getting frustrated because every time someone spoke, he had to wait for the translation.

[45] Mussolini could speak English and French, so he was following along fine.

[46] So Hitler's getting frustrated.

[47] And then after the question gets translated, he pretty much explodes.

[48] And he says, there would be no compensation, that their time was too valuable to waste on such true realities.

[49] And of course, at that bombshell, Chamberlain dropped the subject.

[50] Then Chamberlain tried again with something else.

[51] He said, shouldn't we have a check?

[52] A minister or a Czech representative here, you know, Britain doesn't feel comfortable just giving away another country without that government having to say so, especially if you want someone to guarantee that the Czech people will be out of the agreed upon areas by October 10th.

[53] and Deladier weakly backed Chamberlain up.

[54] But Hitler was adamant he did not want any checks in his presence.

[55] But then the French leader had a compromise and said, well, why don't we have a representative or two just in the next room, just in case we needed to call on him.

[56] Hitler was fine with that as long as he didn't have to see them.

[57] So two Czech representatives were brought in.

[58] Dr. Mastny, the Czech minister in Berlin, and Dr. Masaryk from the Prague Foreign Office were brought in from Berlin and they were put into the next room.

[59] They weren't allowed to come into the main room.

[60] And they were treated very stiffly by the Germans there.

[61] They were pretty much put in a room from 2 o 'clock to 7 o 'clock and just left alone.

[62] And about 8 o 'clock after the four powers had had a chance to talk, Chamberlain's representatives went in to see the two ministers, and they said, well, the deal's done.

[63] It's a little harsher than what we originally thought, but we've got everything taken care of.

[64] And at 10 p .m., the two Czech representatives got to see Sir Horace Wilson, Chamberlain's advisor.

[65] And Sir Horace Wilson had a...

[66] He told the men the details of the agreement.

[67] He showed them a map, and he said, here you have to start evacuating now.

[68] Here you're going to have to leave pretty soon.

[69] These areas are in question.

[70] We'll set up a committee, and we'll go from there.

[71] But you've got to start leaving these areas right away.

[72] Oh, and by the way, have a representative in Berlin next Saturday to sign this to make it legitimate.

[73] As you can imagine, the two Czech representatives started to protest, but Sir Horace cut them off and left the room.

[74] Another one of the representatives of Chamberlain said, you pretty much need to accept this deal or Britain will walk away and you'll be left to deal with Germany on your own.

[75] So they agreed.

[76] So shortly after 1 a .m., September 30th, the four powers signed the document.

[77] And the troops marched in to the Sudetenland on October 1st, just like Hitler said they would all along.

[78] And by October 10th, all the land that was in question was occupied by the Germans.

[79] So right after the meeting, Hitler and Mussolini leave.

[80] And Chamberlain and Deladier have to be the ones to tell the Czech aides all the details.

[81] So they walk into the room and they tell the two Czechs that no response or reply is needed.

[82] Just, you know, again, have someone in Berlin to sign the paper.

[83] And we did all we could for you.

[84] Thank you.

[85] So the next morning, after a couple hours of sleep, Chamberlain wants to build on his success with Hitler.

[86] So he gets Hitler aside the next morning and he says, you know, go easy on the Sudetenland.

[87] Please don't bomb.

[88] Prague, and maybe we can get together later and talk about ending the Spanish Civil War, which everyone knew Hitler was contributing to.

[89] Hitler was open, but uncommitted.

[90] Obviously, he wasn't going to agree to that.

[91] But then Chamberlain took out a document that said there should be no war between their people, and if something comes up, they should settle it by talking.

[92] Hitler probably looked at him like he was insane, went ahead and signed the document without thinking about it too much, and when Chamberlain got home, he waived the document.

[93] to his adoring fans, and he says, this represents peace in our time, and Britain celebrated.

[94] Of course, Churchill, who's not yet in government, says this was a total unmitigated defeat, after which he had to pause in his speech because there were just howls of protest.

[95] So on September 30th, General Surovey, the leader of what's left of Czechoslovakia, says, we were abandoned, we stand alone.

[96] So the Czech government surrendered to the point on the document.

[97] But to be honest with you, Hitler never thought he would get this far.

[98] He thought he was going to have to fight.

[99] He was amazed that all his saber -rattling was able to accomplish all this.

[100] And he has every intention of going for the rest of it.

[101] But, of course, all this just emboldened him further.

[102] On October 5th, President Benes was forced to resign from pressure from Berlin.

[103] In fact, his life was in danger, so he had to escape to London.

[104] Now for Czechoslovakia, the nightmare is just getting started.

[105] So Benez is out, and on November 30th, Dr. Hacha, who's 66 years old, is selected to be the president of Czechoslovakia, because in a lot of ways it is two separate countries now.

[106] All the disputed land from the commission of Munich was given to Germany.

[107] And it wasn't very long before Poland did take the Teschen district, and they got about 650 square miles.

[108] And on November 2nd, days after Munich was signed, Hungary got their part.

[109] They got about 7 ,500 square miles.

[110] So what's left of Czechoslovakia is being called a rump state by Berlin, and they're forced to install a pro -German government.

[111] By November 20th, Germany got about 11 ,000 square miles, which contained the formidable defensive line of Czechoslovakia.

[112] It also got, in this region of land that it got, it got 66 % of their coal, 80 % of their lignite, 70 % of their iron and steel, 86 % of their chemicals, 80 % of their cement, 80 % of their textiles, and 70 % of their electric power, and 40 % of their timber.

[113] So it's safe to say the Czech state was stripped of its defenses and its ability to wage war.

[114] Now, the neutral people in Germany who weren't quite sure about Hitler after this were convinced of his greatness.

[115] And, of course, the plotters who were planning against him were depressed.

[116] Beck, Halder, and Witzleben were all proven wrong, and it's going to be very hard for them to be credible with their message of Hitler is going to end up destroying Germany.

[117] But right before Hitler gave in to Mussolini's request to take the compromise, war seemed imminent.

[118] But the ironic thing is that the German generals all agreed that they would have lost if war had been engaged with Britain and France at that time.

[119] But also, Britain and France believed that they were about to be bombed any minute from Germany's massive air force, and they thought there would be a battle and that they would lose.

[120] And again, it was all unjustified fear.

[121] Germany did not have nearly the size of the air force it would take to take on the Czechoslovakian army, as well as bomb France and Britain.

[122] So there was a lot of hysteria going around, which helps explain the atmosphere when Chamberlain gives another country a way to avoid war.

[123] And of course, Russia is watching all of this, and they very slowly begin to rethink their foreign policy about who they should be allied with.

[124] Within 10 days of signing Munich, Hitler's ready to plan taking the rest of Czechoslovakia.

[125] But this would be different for him.

[126] This would be his first time taking non -German dominated land.

[127] He wouldn't be able to use the excuse about saving his people from persecution.

[128] This would be a real occupation, an aggressive act of land grabbing.

[129] So Hitler sent Keitel of the OKW, the Oberkommando der Wechtmarkt, a top secret letter asking, How much time is needed to take the rest of Czechoslovakia?

[130] And what kind of reinforcements would you need?

[131] The answer came back pretty quickly from Keitel.

[132] He said, not much and not much.

[133] They already had 24 divisions in the Sudetenland.

[134] Three of them were armored and four of them were motorized.

[135] So after another 10 days, when Hitler heard back from him, he sent a letter to the military chiefs on October 21st.

[136] And he said, I want you to be ready to protect Germany's borders.

[137] I want you to be ready to take the rest of Czechoslovakia.

[138] And since we're at it, let's...

[139] grab the Melmel district.

[140] This was a Baltic port in Lithuania that was, 50 % of its population was Jewish.

[141] And this was lost to Germany at the end of World War I. So they were just going to go ahead and grab it since they were starting another conflict.

[142] And I heard recently on the BBC a report about The government in Lithuania was offering the Jewish community there about $50 million because the Jewish community wanted to get all the property back that their parents and grandparents had lost to at first the Nazis and then the Russians when the Russians came through at the end of the war.

[143] And the Lithuanian government has not given it back, which pretty much flies in the face of international law since World War II.

[144] So they're just offering them money, but the Jewish community said they do not want the money.

[145] They want their property back, but that's still an ongoing debate.

[146] Now, the Czech government in Prague is between Iraq and a hard place, or between Germany and Hungary.

[147] They have no idea what they should be doing next.

[148] They want to appease Hitler, but they're not sure what they should do because he's not making it easy for them.

[149] So the Czech government in Prague, and you'll see maps on the website and on the podcast, which is kind of on the left -hand side of the country, is giving Slovakia, on the right -hand side, a lot of autonomy.

[150] They're guessing this is what Hitler wants, so they're doing it.

[151] And at first, Hitler tolerates it.

[152] because it's making both halves weaker because there's a lot less organization going on between the two.

[153] So Germany's planning goes throughout October, but then something happens in Paris that gives a little light into Hitler's break with reality.

[154] And his country would pretty much catch this fever, and it would spread across everywhere that Germany controls, and it would pretty much spell the end of Nazi Germany.

[155] On November 7, 1938, A 17 -year -old German Jew male, Herschel Grinspen, shot the third secretary of the German ambassador, Count Johann von Welzeck, in Paris.

[156] Young Herschel was upset because his father had been deported to Poland, and he was disgusted in general with Germany's treatment of Jews in Germany.

[157] And so he tries to shoot the ambassador, but the third secretary is as close as he can get, so he shoots and kills him.

[158] And the reaction when Hitler plans it out will be called Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass.

[159] So the reaction is planned out carefully by Hitler and Gehring, and it's going to be carried out the night of November 9th through the 10th.

[160] Now, Gehring was driven.

[161] He was mad.

[162] He was unstable.

[163] He was power -hungry.

[164] He was evil.

[165] He didn't have the same hatred of all things Jewish like Hitler did.

[166] And Hitler's going to react to this, and Hitler's mask of being able to control himself is going to start to slip a little bit.

[167] And, of course, after this event, there will be no going back for Germany.

[168] This is what they will be known for, and this will set in everyone's mind all across the world what Germany is about.

[169] So it's decided that the organized reaction would take place after the celebration of the Beer Hall anniversary.

[170] And Hitler's going to make it look like they had the anniversary.

[171] Everybody gets worked up and they hear about this.

[172] And the German populace is going to go and attack the Jews all over Germany.

[173] So Hitler and Gehring make the plan.

[174] But it's going to be run by Reinhard Heydrich, the number two man of the SS, who's in charge of the SD, the secret police and the Gestapo.

[175] And they decide that all Jewish property is going to be destroyed.

[176] The police were to stay out of the way to make it look like it's a reaction from the German citizens.

[177] And they were to arrest as many rich Jews as possible and put them in the concentration camps.

[178] Synagogues, Jewish homes, and shops were to be burned.

[179] And as the people were to be set on fire, and as the people run out of the buildings to try and get away there to be shot.

[180] Just after a couple of hours, once this gets going, 815 shops are burnt down.

[181] 171 homes are burnt down, 119 synagogues are burnt, and 76 other buildings are destroyed.

[182] Now, afterwards, some of the SS troops are found guilty of having sex with Jews, which is against the Nuremberg racial laws when the SS troops raped the women.

[183] And, of course, they were kicked out of the party.

[184] So the next day, as smoke is still coming from the rubble, the German leaders discuss what to do next.

[185] Now, there was a lot of property that was destroyed, and Germany is focused.

[186] on economics just like everyone else because they're mobilizing for war.

[187] So Hitler decides to find the Jews one billion marks for their crimes.

[188] And after this, it's decided very quickly by the Nazi hierarchy, mostly Hitler, to eliminate Jews from the economy, including all Jew -owned businesses.

[189] They were to be turned over to Aryans.

[190] But now they had to decide, okay, if we're going to get rid of all the Jews, what are we going to do with them?

[191] We're going to kick them out of all facets of German life.

[192] They're going to be out of schools.

[193] They're going to be out of parks.

[194] They're not even allowed to go into the forests.

[195] So they set up a committee to decide what they're going to do with them.

[196] But overall, the goal was to either get the Jews out of the country or detain them in ghettos.

[197] or the concentration camps.

[198] Now, before the night of the broken glass, the Jews being harassed as far as physical violence was pretty much unorganized.

[199] It was just the rowdy brown shirts out of control, no one stopping them.

[200] But from this point out, violence against the Jews is going to be organized by the state.

[201] And of course, when the world hears about these events, they're disgusted by Hitler and by Germany, and Hitler in return is disgusted by the world.

[202] This was the real Hitler starting to come out.

[203] And for him, the backlash of...

[204] international politics was just more proof to him of the extent of Jewish control throughout the world.

[205] It's believed by many that Hitler's self -control and his ability to analyze dispassionately was starting to slip.

[206] To want to be the leader and to blame Jews for all your problems in the middle of an economic depression is one thing, but he never said I wanted to go out and kill them all because he knew he never would have made it to power.

[207] But now he doesn't have to worry about that so much because he's in total control.

[208] No one can stop him.

[209] So he's starting to give in to his megalomania.

[210] One of the reasons for Hitler's success was because he was able to put himself in his enemy's shoes.

[211] He could think clearly, logically, and he could think like them.

[212] And so he had a sense of what Chamberlain or someone else would do.

[213] But he's starting to lose that.

[214] He's starting to give in to the darker side of himself.

[215] But like when they occupy the Rhineland, he said that was the most nerve -wracking 48 hours of his life.

[216] So he took chances and he got stressed and he got nervous like everyone else, but he stuck to it because he knew he was right.

[217] And he went after Munich and he knew he could make Chamberlain blink.

[218] But that ability to be dispassionate, to go after what you want.

[219] Cooling and calmly, he's starting to lose that.

[220] And the meeting November 12th about what to do with Jews was recorded.

[221] And it showed that Hitler was pretty much responsible for their treatment.

[222] He was responsible for the plan.

[223] He approved it.

[224] He gave orders for it.

[225] By the end of 1938, Hitler's giving speeches for the Western countries to hear.

[226] And to sum them up, he's pretty much saying, mind your own business.

[227] This is all Germany's affair and stay out of it.

[228] So there's no attempt to placate.

[229] There's no attempt to smoke screen or to...

[230] a conciliating gesture.

[231] He's just pretty much bullying.

[232] The real Hitler is starting to come out at this point.

[233] And one last thing about Kristallnacht.

[234] I heard on the BBC News Hour today about the story about all the children who were allowed to leave when all the tension was going on with Munich in the Sudetenland and Slovakia.

[235] Germany was allowing Jewish children, 17 years and younger, to leave the area and to go to England, go to Britain.

[236] A lot of the Jewish parents in Germany and Austria and Slovakia and Czechoslovakia, it was very hard for them, but they put their kids on trains and they were sent to Britain.

[237] Overall, I think about 10 ,000 children went.

[238] after Kristallnacht, and it went all the way to the beginning of the war when Germany attacks Poland.

[239] So checking out the BBC is always good.

[240] There's always got something going on, and it's just proof that in a lot of ways, World War II is still with us.

[241] Now at Munich, Hitler gave Mussolini a treaty, and the treaty called for Germany, Italy, and Japan to all sign the anti -Komtern pact.

[242] But to be honest, Mussolini was still unsure, and he was uncomfortable with the intensity of the Nazi program, especially towards the Jews, so he stalled.

[243] Hitler kept trying to push Mussolini, saying it was only a matter of time before they together faced the Western powers.

[244] He was trying to force Mussolini into making a choice.

[245] So Hitler's feeling pretty cocky after Munich, and a couple weeks after that, he wants to see how good he is, how brilliant he is.

[246] He tries to separate France from Britain.

[247] So on October the 18th, Hitler meets with the French ambassador, Francois...

[248] and I'm sure I'm saying that wrong.

[249] And in the meeting, Hitler raged against Britain, and then he calmed down and he complimented France.

[250] And he said he was willing to sign a document renouncing any claim on the Alsace -Lorraine area between the two countries that was lost to Germany after World War I. Now, France was desperate for any chance of peace, so they agreed, and the pact was signed on December the 6th, 1938, by the German and French foreign ministers.

[251] Now, on some level, France had gotten over its initial fear of being bombed and invaded.

[252] at the time of Munich.

[253] And so they signed the document, but they were pretty much hating themselves at the time for doing it.

[254] And a lot of politicians and diplomats didn't show up for the signing, and they all ignored and hated Ribbentrop, the German foreign minister.

[255] But unfortunately, at the signing, there was a misunderstanding between Ribbentrop and the French that had severe consequences for Poland and Russia and everybody in the East.

[256] Ribbentrop thought he understood from the foreign minister, Bonet, that France didn't care what happened in the East anymore.

[257] Bonet claimed that this was not true and that actually he said the reverse to Ribbentrop.

[258] But Ribbentrop told Hitler what he thought was the truth, so this emboldened Hitler even more to go after what he wanted.

[259] Welcome to True Spies, the podcast that takes you deep inside the greatest secret missions of all time.

[260] Suddenly out of the dark, it's appeared in love.

[261] You'll meet the people who live life undercover.

[262] What do they know?

[263] What are their skills?

[264] And what would you do in their position?

[265] Vengeance felt good.

[266] Seeing these people pay for what they'd done felt righteous.

[267] True Spies, from Spyscape Studios, wherever you get your podcasts.

[268] So by the beginning of 1939, Germany had still not signed the document guaranteeing the new Czechoslovakian borders.

[269] France and Britain had signed the document, and yet they weren't even asking why Germany hadn't.

[270] Obviously, we know now that Hitler had plans for the rest of Czechoslovakia, so why bother signing the document?

[271] So Hitler's now focused on taking the rest of Czechoslovakia.

[272] The next part of his plan was to separate the two even further.

[273] They would be smaller, they would be more easily invaded in case it came to war, but Hitler thought his chances of getting it without an armed conflict and also without bringing Britain and France into it was still possible.

[274] So at the end of 1938, the Czech government is trying to appease Hitler.

[275] Again, they're not sure what he wants, but they dissolve the Communist Party, they kick all the Jews out of the education system, and they're sensing that this is not enough.

[276] So the foreign minister begs to come and see Hitler, and on January 2nd, they meet.

[277] Hitler is bullying, he's condescending, and he's arrogant.

[278] The Czech foreign minister, Tchaikovsky, was pathetic, and Hitler played into that.

[279] Hitler threatened to take it all.

[280] He had conditions.

[281] Czechoslovakia had to lead the League of Nations.

[282] They had to reduce their army.

[283] They had to join his anti -Komtern pact, and they had to outlaw Jews completely.

[284] And after Hitler left the room, Ribbentrop finished this off with, don't tell Britain or France any of this, and don't ask about Germany guaranteeing any new borders either.

[285] So it wasn't until February 8, 1939, that Britain and France had realized that Germany had not signed the document guaranteeing the new borders for Czechoslovakia.

[286] So they sent a very passive note asking about when did Germany think they would get around to signing it.

[287] Hitler kept them waiting until February 28, and his only reply was that it was not yet time for Germany to sign it.

[288] They wanted to see how things would work out in Czechoslovakia.

[289] And of course, he knew how things were going to work out because he was making plans for them.

[290] So at the beginning of March of 1939, Germany and Hungary were pushing the Slovakians to agitate for independence.

[291] So of course that would give them both an excuse to come in and restore order.

[292] So the Czech government in Prague was in an impossible situation, and they knew it.

[293] The Slovakians caused too much trouble.

[294] Hitler would use this as an excuse and come in.

[295] If the Czechs suppressed the agitators in Slovakia too harshly, Hitler would come in.

[296] Either way, Hitler was going to be marching into the capital of Prague.

[297] They knew it, and he knew it, and he had outmaneuvered them, and there was nothing they could do about it.

[298] But of course, Czechoslovakia, there was a lot of tension building.

[299] They were very nervous, and they had to do something.

[300] So on March 6, Dr. Hecha, the president of Czechoslovakia, dismissed the local government.

[301] in Ruthenia, on the very eastern tip of Czechoslovakia.

[302] And the night of March 9th, he did the same to the autonomous government in Slovakia.

[303] He made arrests of the troublemakers.

[304] He declared martial law, and they finished up by arresting the Slovakian premier, Monsignor Tiso.

[305] Now, temporarily, Germany was caught off guard.

[306] Gehring had to be called back from a vacation, and Hitler was on his way to Austria to celebrate the first anniversary of taking Austria.

[307] But he quickly got to work.

[308] On March 11th, Hitler drafted a note to the Czech government saying that they had to accept occupation, but for now he kept it top secret, but he had it ready to go.

[309] Next, Hitler used his pressure on President Hacha to replace Premier Tizzo with Carl Sajdor, because Hitler didn't think that Tizzo was up to the job, but he would certainly soon show him that he was.

[310] On March 11th, Sajdor had his first cabinet meeting, but it was interrupted.

[311] by Cesc Inquart, the governor of Austria, and five German generals who came with him.

[312] They told the ministers in the cabinet to declare Slovakia independent, or Germany would leave them to their own devices, especially defending themselves against Hungary.

[313] Now, Seydar did not want a complete break with Prague, so he stalled for time.

[314] But Tizo, who was pro -German...

[315] escaped from house arrest.

[316] Tiso found Seidore, who was trying to conduct a meeting in a hotel or someone's residence, and he told him that Hitler had invited him to Berlin, and if he did not go, two German divisions would occupy Slovakia.

[317] So obviously they let him go see Hitler.

[318] So on March 13th, Tiso and his deputy prime minister, Dirkanski, were flown to Berlin.

[319] They arrived at 7 .40 p .m. that night, and when they met Hitler, he had with him Ribbentrop, General...

[320] Brautisch, a commander -in -chief of the army, and Keitel, chief of OKW, or the German High Command.

[321] Hitler started off by saying how mad he was at Czechoslovakia and that they did not appreciate how much the Reich was showing restraint.

[322] He was saying that you're on our borders, you're causing all this trouble, and some of my Germans might get hurt.

[323] And then he was talking about the Slovaks and said he was disappointed in them as well.

[324] He had been working very hard to keep Hungary at bay because they wanted all of Slovakia.

[325] So then Hitler asked Tiso, who technically wasn't in charge, one, do you want to be in charge, and two, did Slovakia want to be independent or not?

[326] If yes, Hitler would see to it, and if no, they would leave them to face Hungary all on their own.

[327] Then Hitler was handed a note by Ribbentrop, it was probably fake, saying that the Hungarians were crossing the border into Slovakia.

[328] Hitler said, you must decide quickly.

[329] So Monsignor Tiso said he would have liked to have talked to his cabinet, but it wouldn't be necessary.

[330] He was willing to do whatever Hitler wanted him to.

[331] So the Germans helped Tiso write up a telegram that he would go back home and send it, asking Germany for help.

[332] So he leaves, takes over the government, and on March 16th sends the telegram to Berlin.

[333] But that same night, Ribbentrop wrote the Slovak Statement of Independence that Tiso would read to his parliament once he got back.

[334] So Monsignor Tiso gets back to Slovakia on March 14th, and he gets the parliament together, and he reads them the document.

[335] So Slovakia is an independent country, March 14th, 1939.

[336] Of course, it's not going to last very long.

[337] The British diplomats learned about the details of how this country came to be about.

[338] Instead of getting angry, Chamberlain used the details or the secession of Slovakia as an excuse not to honor his guarantee to Czechoslovakia.

[339] Now it's the Czech state turn.

[340] So on March 14th, Dr. Hacha hears about Slovakia breaking away, and he calls Hitler and he wants to see him.

[341] Hitler graciously says yes.

[342] So SS groups in the Czech state have been trying to cause trouble, so Hitler would have an excuse to come in.

[343] But the police were told not to interfere no matter what.

[344] But that didn't stop Dr. Goebbels from making up fake stories in the press about Germans being hurt in the Czech territory.

[345] In fact, he used the same stories from the Sudetenland episode.

[346] He just changed the names.

[347] So everything's in place, and Dr. Hacha's train pulls up to the Anhalt station in Berlin at 10 .40 p .m. Yes, it's going to be another long night.

[348] Hacha is treated to all the honors due to a head of state.

[349] There's an honor guard.

[350] There's a band.

[351] But Hitler kept Hacha waiting, and his foreign minister, he kept them waiting until 1 .15 a .m. But Hatcher had already heard about some of the cities and towns and areas of his country being taken over by German troops.

[352] So he knows what's coming.

[353] So he's finally brought into the presence of Hitler.

[354] And with Hitler, there's Ribbentrop, there's Goering, there's Keitel.

[355] And there's Hitler's personal doctor, who's pretty much a quack, Theodor Morrell.

[356] Hatcher speaks first.

[357] And he's desperately trying to save himself or trying to save any part of his country.

[358] He says he never agreed with Benets.

[359] He did not like the way he did things.

[360] And he ended his speech with saying that the Czech state is in the furious hands.

[361] But Hitler's not going to let himself be placated.

[362] He starts listing in an angry, loud voice all the wrongs that Czechoslovakia had done to Germany.

[363] He had hoped for a peaceful coexistence between the two, but it wasn't possible.

[364] He was saying, you can't even keep your people in line and Germans are being hurt and your anarchy might spread to my country.

[365] country, and my job was to take care of the Germans, so I had no choice but to order the invasion of your country on March 12th, which was the same night.

[366] So Dr. Hatcher and his deputy prime minister knew this was coming, but when the words were said out loud, they just froze, and witnesses were saying they literally couldn't move for a couple of minutes.

[367] And then Hitler calmly said that German forces are coming in from all sides, but there was still hope of reducing bloodshed for you.

[368] If you don't fight the occupation, I'll leave you with some autonomy for your country, but if you don't, there will be no mercy, and your country will cease to exist.

[369] Again, Hitler was pointing out calmly that he was only doing all this to protect Germany and to protect German lives.

[370] And he said, see, that's why I wanted to see you.

[371] I want you to help me save some part of Czechoslovakia.

[372] So please go and think about it.

[373] So the two Czech ministers are dismissed from Hitler's presence at 2 .15 a .m., but then Goering and Ribbentrop go to work.

[374] It's just like with Shushnik before.

[375] They start harassing the Elder Hatch other.

[376] chasing him around.

[377] They're shoving pens into his hand.

[378] They're shoving the document in front of him, yelling at him, trying to force him to sign.

[379] But he says he can't sign because he'll be forever cursed by his people.

[380] But then Hacha faints.

[381] He collapses on the floor, and the Germans are terrified that everyone will think that he's been killed at the chancellery.

[382] But Hitler's doctor, Morrell, was called in.

[383] and he gave Dr. Hacha an injection.

[384] And Morrell was always using the injections.

[385] He didn't really know what he was doing, and in the future he'd actually come close to killing Hitler a couple times.

[386] But Hacha recovered enough for the Germans to shove a phone in his hand.

[387] He called his cabinet, and he told them the situation that had happened so far, and he recommended surrendering.

[388] Then after another injection by the doctor, Hacha was brought again into Hitler's office.

[389] And they signed the document to surrender at 3 .55 a .m., March 15, 1939.

[390] The document had been written weeks before Hacha had arrived by Hitler.

[391] And the document reads as follows, and this is from the book William L. Shire, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

[392] Berlin, March 15, 1939.

[393] At their request, the Fuhrer today received the Czechoslovakian President, Dr. Hacha, and the Czechoslovakian Foreign Minister, Dr. Tchaikovsky, in Berlin in the presence of Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop.

[394] At the meeting, the serious situation created by the events of recent weeks in the present Czechoslovakian territories was examined with complete frankness.

[395] The conviction was unanimously expressed on both sides that the aim of all efforts must be the safeguarding of calm, order, and peace in this part of Central Europe.

[396] The Czechoslovakian president declared that, in order to serve this object and to achieve ultimate pacification, he confidently placed the fate of the Czech people and the country in the hands of the Fuhrer of the German Reich.

[397] The Fuhrer accepted this declaration and expressed his intention of taking the Czech people under the protection of the German Reich and of guaranteeing them the autonomous development of their ethnic life as suited to their character.

[398] Of course, after he signed the document and the two Czechs left, he rushed into the other room and he hugged all the women and he yelled, Children, this is the greatest day of my life.

[399] I shall go down in history as the greatest German.

[400] So at 6 a .m. on March 15, 1939, German troops marched unmolested into Bohemia and Maravia.

[401] That evening, Hitler entered Prague.

[402] Touring the city, Hitler commented to his colleagues that this is what he wanted at Munich, but Chamberlain had ruined his plans by giving in to his demands.

[403] Of course, the British and French people were angry at this latest demonstration, and Hitler tried to placate them by bringing the moderate Nurov out of retirement and making him the protector of the reduced Czech state.

[404] So this is March 15th.

[405] The Czech state is now gone.

[406] And the next day, March 16th, is when Tissot sends the telegram asking Germany for help.

[407] So the next day, Slovakia, which is in the east, falls to the Germans.

[408] So the arrests and Nazi violence start right away in these two countries.

[409] And the only thing that's left is Ruentia, which is a very small area on the very eastern tip.

[410] And, of course, they call up Germany asking for help, but Germany had already promised that area to Hungary.

[411] So on March 15th, Hungary takes that, and it's all over with.

[412] Now, during all this, the British and French governments made no move, militarily or diplomatically.

[413] And this only further convinced Mussolini and Hitler that the once great British Empire was weak, rotten from within, and its leader was equally powerless.

[414] Chamberlain, on March 15th, used Slovakia's proclamation of independence as an excuse not to honor the guarantee with them either.

[415] So simply put, Hitler calculated an out for Chamberlain while taking what he wanted, and Chamberlain took it.

[416] Now up until this point...

[417] Britain nor France had even registered a protest in Berlin.

[418] But the British public and the French public were pretty angry.

[419] So Chamberlain finally sends a note, not a protest, but a note on March 15th to Berlin.

[420] And the note reads, Now, obviously, that's not a note that's going to...

[421] make Hitler shake in his boots anytime soon.

[422] But in a matter of weeks, Chamberlain's going to have a surprise for Hitler and for the world.

[423] But right after the British note comes in, the French diplomat comes in, and they do a little bit better than the British.

[424] The new French ambassador to Germany, Robert Colondre, and I'm probably saying that wrong, wants to meet with Ribbentrop, but Ribbentrop's in Prague celebrating with Hitler.

[425] So Ribbentrop's deputy...

[426] Weissacker is in Berlin, and he has to meet with him.

[427] So the French ambassador says Germany not only violated the Munich Agreement, but it also violated the Franco -German declaration that they signed together on December the 6th when it entered into the Czech state.

[428] Weissacker arrogantly dismissed the ambassador just right to his face, and he would have made Ribbentrop proud.

[429] But by March 18th, the British and the French people are so outraged that governments have to do something.

[430] So now they finally send official protests.

[431] But Wisacker, who's still in charge because Robert Trump is away, he even refuses to accept the note.

[432] He then told the French ambassador to go home and change the protest to something else.

[433] He's getting very arrogant.

[434] But he pretty much represents the mindset of the German government.

[435] The French ambassador insists that he takes the note.

[436] German just says, we'll leave it on the desk and consider it delivered.

[437] But he insists that Germany did nothing illegal, that they were asked to come in, that they were invited in.

[438] So now it's Henderson's turn, who's representing Chamberlain.

[439] They have time for one more low note.

[440] in this sad history.

[441] Henderson comes to meet Weisacker in Berlin and he says, look, Chamberlain's getting a lot of flack for what you've done.

[442] We really don't care about Czechoslovakia.

[443] We're more concerned about the future.

[444] But is there anything you can tell me that I can give to Chamberlain so he can fight back his political opponents?

[445] So that's an insane situation.

[446] And of course, the Germans have nothing to offer him.

[447] But again, Chamberlain is about to surprise Hitler and he's about to surprise the world.

[448] After Czechoslovakia disappears from the map, most of the British newspapers, but not all of them, most of the people in the House of Commons, but not all of them, and most of Chamberlain's backers and half of his cabinet are very angry and they're very upset.

[449] And the idea of appeasing Hitler over anything anymore is just outrageous and they just won't stand for it.

[450] Some people have argued that this is when Chamberlain realized that his job was in jeopardy and he had to do something.

[451] But from what I've been able to read, I think he just really, at this point, realized that Hitler had been lying to him and had been tricking them.

[452] And I think it was more naivete on his part than...

[453] being self -centered or arrogance or anything like that.

[454] So Chamberlain's on a train and is on his way to his home city in Birmingham, and he's going to give a speech as his birthday is coming up.

[455] And he has a speech all written out about domestic issues and about social services.

[456] And, of course, we'll never know the details, but somewhere on that train ride, I guess he sits and he thinks about it and he throws away that speech and he starts writing notes down for a very different speech.

[457] And, of course, since he's the prime minister, the speech is going to be broadcasted.

[458] And when he starts the speech, he apologizes for the restrained and cautious comments he made two days ago in the House of Commons.

[459] And he said he hoped to correct that statement tonight.

[460] And he confesses that he realized that Hitler had lied to him about many things.

[461] And Hitler lied about when he said Munich was his last territorial demand.

[462] And here's a part of Chamberlain's speech.

[463] Now we are told that this seizure of territory has been necessitated by disturbances in Czechoslovakia.

[464] If there were disorders, were they not fermented from without?

[465] Is this the end of an old adventure or is it the beginning of a new?

[466] Is this the last attack upon a small state or is it to be followed by others?

[467] Is this, in effect, a step in the direction of an attempt to dominate the world by force?

[468] While I am not prepared to engage this country, by new and unspecified commitments operating under conditions which cannot now be foreseen, yet no greater mistake could be made than to suppose that because it believes war to be a senseless and cruel thing, this nation has so lost its fiber that it will not take part to the utmost of its power in resisting such a challenge if it were ever made.

[469] And I feel like I should be playing stirring music while he's reading that.

[470] So Hitler should consider himself warned.

[471] But he was already thinking and laying the groundwork for his next conquest.

[472] Anyone who had read Mein Kampf, and you can imagine that a lot more people had been reading it since 1933, and looking at a map could guess which country was next.

[473] Chamberlain knew, and the French knew, and everybody else knew, and it was going to be Poland.

[474] So on March 31st, 16 days after Hitler had entered Prague, Chamberlain told the House of Commons, In the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence and which the Polish government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish government all support in their power.

[475] They have given the Polish government an assurance to this effect.

[476] I may add that the French government has authorized me to make it plain that they stand in the same position in this matter.

[477] Next time, Hitler will realize that his days of blustering and nonviolent conquests are over.

[478] If he wants to continue carrying out his plans laid out in Mein Kampf, he will have to fight for it.

[479] And he has no intention of giving up his dream of a great German empire.

[480] And now we'll bring Mussolini up to speed.

[481] In the mid -1930s, Mussolini started talking about the Jews in a more negative light, which is ironic because when Hitler first came to power in 1933, Mussolini would say to anyone who would listen that he considered Hitler to be a muddle -headed fellow and that his racial theories were ridiculous, to say the least.

[482] And when Hitler came to power, Mussolini had been in power since 1922, and he'd consider himself the worldly experienced leader.

[483] So for the first few years of Nazi rule, when they started making laws, passing laws against the Jews, Mussolini allowed about 3 ,000 German Jews sanctuary in Italy.

[484] And even up until 1936, Mussolini would still personally intervene on certain issues, certain Jewish people or their families, to give them sanctuary in Italy or to protect them.

[485] But after each success that Hitler had, whether it was domestic or whether it was foreign, Mussolini started...

[486] copying, started aping Hitler, especially when it came to his attitudes on race.

[487] And finally, in November of 1936, Mussolini told his cabinet that it was time to introduce racial matters into the fascist doctrine.

[488] There were several reasons for this, besides copying Hitler.

[489] Part of it was, out of all the bad press that he was getting after the Ethiopian War, a lot of the commentators were Jewish, and that really riled him.

[490] Also other countries such as Hungary, Poland, and Romania, which had friendly relations with Italy, were persecuting the Jews in their countries as well.

[491] March 1937, Mussolini visited Libya.

[492] And he had a message that was very pro -Arab.

[493] One, because Arabs were anti -British, and so that made them his friends.

[494] And also, he wanted the people in Ethiopia to quit resisting him.

[495] So he had a very pro -Arab message that he went on a tour and he went speaking.

[496] But of course, that kind of message made all the rich and influential Jews in North Africa very nervous.

[497] But even by the end of 1937, it was easy to disbelieve the Italian conversion to anti -Semitism.

[498] Ciano wrote in his diary, and he was the foreign minister and Mussolini's son -in -law, that Mussolini said he personally did not like the Jews, but that certainly wasn't a good enough reason to change his country's policy.

[499] In fact, he had spent most of his career not being anti -Semitic.

[500] So when it comes to racial issues, this is where Mussolini tries to sit on the fence.

[501] In February of 1938, he has research done to see if there really is any science to the racial science of Nazi Germany.

[502] He has a document put together, and he has it published, but he has it published anonymously.

[503] So again, he's not sure what to do.

[504] And in July 1938...

[505] Mussolini is wanting to expand.

[506] He's trying to keep up with Hitler.

[507] So he wants the Italian people to get used to the idea of being bosses.

[508] He wants them to get used to being harsh and demanding respect and demanding fear from other people.

[509] So there are thugs in every country, but in general...

[510] Italy and the Italian people are just too laid back, and he's going to have to fight against that, and also he's going to have to fight against his own indecision in trying to be more like Nazi Germany.

[511] So he copies Germany by attacking the Jews and the foreigners first.

[512] He wants the books by Jews burned, and he wants reporters arrested and their newspapers burned.

[513] He wants concentration camps set up for those who are going to be incarcerated for a long time.

[514] And on July 14, 1938, on Bastille Day, which is a day celebrated in France, and it's about the Enlightenment, about humane treatment of people.

[515] He has published the Manifesto of Racial Scientists, which he contributed a lot personally.

[516] And it had ten points about race, but the main point was that the people of Italy are of an Aryan origin, and so is their civilization, and Jews do not belong.

[517] But, of course, being Italian and being Mussolini, for every law that he made about expelling Jews or limiting Jews, he had exceptions to every single law and to every persecution.

[518] There were very few concentration camps built at first.

[519] And a lot of the Italians believed that Mussolini was just trying to mimic the successful Germans.

[520] No matter what the Italian press said, the people in Italy knew their Mussolini.

[521] And during the Czech crisis, Mussolini said that Italy's place was beside Germany if there was going to be a war.

[522] But to be honest, he said this because he didn't think there would be a war.

[523] He thought Hitler could get away with it.

[524] But of course, that promise was now out there.

[525] He couldn't take it back.

[526] So he had to backpedal a little bit and just say, will the Jews in Italy need to be watched if the axis is to move forward?

[527] Of course, again, Jews of merit, whether it's military merit or diplomatic merit or business sense or whatever, they could be excused.

[528] So again, he had all these rules and then he had all these exceptions for these rules because it just wasn't in his nature.

[529] It wasn't in Italy's nature.

[530] So in November of 1938, when the Kristallnacht comes, Mussolini says for the public conception that if he was Hitler, he would have did the same thing.

[531] But then the Italian opinion...

[532] is so decidedly disgusted with the German acts that he has to back off and he says, well, to find the Jews is absurd.

[533] And if Germany ever attacked the German Catholics like they did the Jews, the Axis could not survive.

[534] So which Mussolini is to be believed, the one that backs Hitler or the one that's angry or disgusted by Hitler or shocked by his actions?

[535] Mussolini really is emotionally confused.

[536] He doesn't know what to do, but he knows this is a very serious game.

[537] He has to pick the right side.

[538] He just doesn't know which one is the right side.

[539] Of course, there were practical applications to his new view on the Jews.

[540] The Jews in Italy were kicked out of teaching.

[541] They were kicked out of the educational system.

[542] There were racial laws like Germany's about marriage between Jews and Italian Aryans.

[543] They were also kicked out of banking, insurance, the military, and small businesses.

[544] But again, there were a lot of exemptions.

[545] And as you can predict, Mussolini's view of life remained complex.

[546] For him, it wasn't black and white.

[547] It never would be.

[548] But that's what happens when you experience life and you read a lot of books.

[549] You just realize the way life is, and it wasn't like that for Hitler at all.

[550] November of 1938, Mussolini helped his former lover, Margarita Cerfati, escape the country, get out in front of all the laws that were coming down about race, and eventually she made it to New York.

[551] Mussolini talked about racism, and there are times when he could be cruel, like in Ethiopia, and maybe he was trying to convince himself that he was a brother to the successful Nazi Germany.

[552] But there will always be plenty of daylight between the legal Italy that's on the books and the real Italy that people are living their lives in.

[553] And of course, all this race stuff and this new way of adopting what looked like German diplomacy flew right in the face of the young Italians, like his sons who were coming of age.

[554] They were watching American films.

[555] They were reading American books.

[556] And when they could, they consumed like Americans.

[557] And they thought that the fascism from the 1920s was superior and more pure.

[558] than the fascism today, which seemed to be becoming all about race.

[559] So to the young people that Mussolini knows he's going to need one day, and even to himself in his more calmer, saner moments, it feels like that as the Nazi juggernaut is moving along, the fascist Italy state is starting to run out of steam.

[560] So Mussolini senses this, and he reacts by dissolving the chamber of deputies.

[561] And he replaces it with the chamber of fascist branches and corporations.

[562] But to be honest, it's pretty much run by the same people.

[563] So again, it's more of a change of something on the surface as opposed to substance.

[564] Now there's tension growing between the king, Victor Emmanuel, and Mussolini.

[565] The king sees all these changes about race, and he sees Mussolini trying to revitalize fascist Italy by becoming more like the Nazis.

[566] And his attitude is, let's just, you know, we're Italians, let's be Italians.

[567] But to Mussolini, Victor Emmanuel was just another example of an unheroic Italian.

[568] And the king also didn't like the Axis idea either.

[569] He thought that they should be arming against Germany, not arming with them.

[570] To retaliate, Mussolini let rumors fly about maybe letting Italy become a republic and getting rid of their king.

[571] The king didn't like that very much, but there wasn't much he could do about it.

[572] But there was one thing they could agree on.

[573] They both disliked very troublesome priests.

[574] Pope Pius XI died on February 10, 1939.

[575] In the last few years of him being pope, he caused a lot of trouble for Mussolini by attacking Germany in writings.

[576] He was attacking what they were doing to Jews in the law.

[577] of freedom and the churches and things like that.

[578] So the next pope, Pope Pius XII, was okay with the fascists in general because he came from a good Italian stock.

[579] His family was involved in high finance and they were anti -communist.

[580] So it's probably fair for me to say that I'm a Catholic and I'll just leave it for everybody else to decide.

[581] But it's probably fair to say that Pope Pius XII did not or would not do anything to make Mussolini have a hard time having a relationship with Nazi Germany.

[582] And I'll leave it at that.

[583] So right after Munich, Mussolini is focused on a perceived weakened France.

[584] And he's just very envious of France and he hates them.

[585] So he tries to browbeat them into giving him land or money.

[586] So he rattles his saber.

[587] But to be honest with you, Italy's military situation along the French border always remains defensive.

[588] There's no way they can scare anybody like Germany's doing.

[589] So this mostly played out in a lot of name calling on both sides.

[590] And France kind of...

[591] It lets rumors out that they're going to threaten to take Mussolini's possessions in North Africa.

[592] But nothing changes hands, no land, no money, or anything like that.

[593] And in January 1939, Chamberlain and Lord Halifax come to see Mussolini, and he's very honored.

[594] But the only reason they came to see him was to help maybe try to get a better hold on the leader in Germany.

[595] Just maybe, hey, we can't understand this guy, can you help us?

[596] But of course, Mussolini's insulted by this.

[597] He thought they came to see him.

[598] So Germany wants to take the anti -Comtern pact it has with Italy and turn it into a full military treaty.

[599] The Italian generals are afraid that France could invade at any time, so they want it.

[600] But Mussolini, he doesn't really believe that France will invade anytime soon, and he wants to stand a little apart from Hitler, so he says no for now.

[601] So when Hitler takes Slovakia and the Czech state, he...

[602] told Mussolini nothing.

[603] Mussolini had no forewarning, and he was very upset by this.

[604] And every time Hitler took land, he took a country or something, he sent Mussolini a telegram showing off, which bothered Mussolini very much.

[605] But then came the British claim that they would help Poland if they were attacked or manipulated politically by Germany in any way.

[606] So Mussolini realizes that war really could happen now.

[607] And he looks at his country and he knows they're not ready.

[608] So Mussolini steps back, adds up the balance sheet, looks on both sides.

[609] But at the end of the day, no matter what, no matter how much he doesn't like it, he has to pretty much come down on Germany's side.

[610] He thinks Germany's going to win.

[611] He's already come too far with Germany to back out now.

[612] He doesn't like it personally.

[613] He doesn't like it emotionally.

[614] But it's his best bet politically as far as he is concerned.

[615] He's the one who came up with the character of a loudmouth dictator, yelling at people, bellowing, intimidating people.

[616] But for him it was an act.

[617] Hitler comes along and he feels that role with flesh and steel and it's real.

[618] And Mussolini is kind of afraid of the way he sees it of his own creation.

[619] So the old Mussolini comes out, the one that's sensitive, insecure, he's not sure what to do.

[620] He looks at his son -in -law, and he sees his youth that's gone.

[621] He looks at Germany, and he sees the success that he wants for himself and for his country, of course, without all the hating and the killing.

[622] And so he did what he always did.

[623] He acted.

[624] On April 7, 1939, on Good Friday, Italy occupied Albania.

[625] Now, Albania had been a protectorate of Italy for a long time, and it's across the Adriatic Sea to the east, near the heel of the Italian boot, but they turned it into an occupation by launching his forces on April 7th.

[626] He wanted to add it to the new Roman Empire, and he let his son -in -law, Ciano, run the show, who didn't do such a good job.

[627] They could have worked harder to win the hearts and minds of the people, but they didn't.

[628] They just kind of went in and occupied.

[629] But even that, they couldn't do very well.

[630] It wasn't a very thorough occupation.

[631] It's over in two days, but that's because the people didn't resist.

[632] People knew that regimes come and go, but lives go on, so they pretty much let the Italians do what they want.

[633] A fascist party was set up.

[634] It wasn't very organized.

[635] It wasn't very complete.

[636] And financially, they never got out more than they had to put in.

[637] The only good point to it was that Greece was now open to Italy and there had been tension between the two countries for years, for decades.

[638] On the whole, the Albanian adventure was Mussolini's Italy trying to compete with Hitler's Germany and they shouldn't have.

[639] So after the occupation, Mussolini appraises the effort made by the Italian troops and knows Italy's war machine and society needed modernizing.

[640] He pushed for more weapons, he pushed for more tanks, planes, and cannon, but after six weeks of screaming at his army, he had little to show for it.

[641] Tourism was down by 60 % in early 1939, which was Italy's main source of foreign income.

[642] So none of this was working to improve his army, so the only other option he had was to try and stall the Germans for about two or three years.

[643] The Germans were polite, but they did not change their mind, and they did not tell Rome anything about what was happening.

[644] So Mussolini's trying to stall, and Germany's moving forward, and they're dragging Italy along with them.

[645] Mussolini has to be honest with himself and admit that...

[646] Italy is Germany's first satellite.

[647] They're the most important satellite, but they are certainly not an equal partner.

[648] And Mussolini and the Italian elites fear Hitler's anger just like everyone else.

[649] So Mussolini forces Ciano to sign the Pact of Steel in Milan on May 7, 1939.

[650] There were a couple of reasons for this.

[651] France was still talking about taking the territory away from Italy and North Africa, and he knew if he signed a pact with Germany, France wouldn't try it.

[652] Also, Mussolini told himself that if he signed the pact, he might have more of a voice in planning the Axis movements, but he found out very quickly that was not to be.

[653] Again, King Victor Manuel tried to warn Mussolini.

[654] He said, one day the Germans will not need you and they will turn on you.

[655] Mussolini publicly laughed at this, but he kept sending Hitler letters asking for massive supplies.

[656] or two or three years for Italy to catch up and be ready.

[657] But to be honest with you, time wouldn't have changed anything.

[658] So during the summer of 1939, the Italian ambassador in Berlin told Mussolini that the USSR...

[659] had no intention of helping anyone who got in trouble with Germany, not even Italy.

[660] Also that the USSR was very upset with the way it was being treated by Britain and France because they were trying to negotiate a treaty against Germany.

[661] But Britain and France, and we'll get into this later, but they weren't taking it very seriously.

[662] They weren't sending high -level diplomats to Russia, but Germany was, and that will have severe consequences later.

[663] But by early August, Mussolini knew it was too late to do any kind of backsliding with Germany.

[664] He had already put his chips in.

[665] He had already chosen.

[666] in his side and there was really nothing he could do about it anymore.

[667] And he also was afraid that if he tried to back away too much, Hitler might stop his plans against Poland and turn his armies to face Rome, and that's something that Mussolini knew he could not survive.

[668] But again, Mussolini is emotional.

[669] He's all over the place.

[670] He knows what he has to do, but he doesn't want to because he's jealous of Hitler, and he wants all that kind of power and respect that Hitler's getting.

[671] So after all the analyzing and thinking and hand -wringing, Mussolini has to be honest with himself and say that he's just as confused.

[672] by Hitler, as is Britain and France.

[673] So Mussolini's stuck.

[674] He signed the Pact of Steel in May, but he knows he's not ready to fight alongside Hitler.

[675] But on August 21st, the Ribbentrop -Molotov Pact is announced, and it's signed two days later.

[676] It's an agreement between Germany and Russia.

[677] We'll get into that next time.

[678] So this makes Mussolini feel a little safer, that there's not going to be a war any day now.

[679] But again, he knows when war does come, his country is not ready.

[680] So he writes Hitler another letter, and he says, unless you send me a massive amount of material, I just feel that we have to remain neutral right now.

[681] But I totally agree with everything that you're doing.

[682] Please don't invade me. So on August 26th, Mussolini again wrote Hitler letters saying he had to stay out of it for a while.

[683] He wanted to fight.

[684] It was killing him.

[685] He wanted to be beside Hitler, but it was best for Italy for now.

[686] And he wasn't ready to face France and Britain.

[687] Hitler wrote back and he said he totally understood.

[688] He just wanted emotional support and psychological assistance from Mussolini.

[689] And can you send him more Italian workers?

[690] To Mussolini, Hitler was showing off his country's industrial might by asking for more workers.

[691] Or were they hostages?

[692] Because Italy had already sent Germany half a million men to do work, and it wasn't quite sure if they were allowed to leave the country.

[693] So, again, Mussolini's not sure of his position with Hitler.

[694] So Mussolini is hoping for the best, but his son -in -law, his foreign minister, now hates the Germans.

[695] But unexpectedly, Mussolini experiences a surge of popularity in his country.

[696] Again, he wanted to fight, but he didn't have the means, so there's no calling up for more forces or anything like that.

[697] It's clear that Italy's not going to be fighting anytime soon, and the people are filled with relief.

[698] So much for the new Roman Empire.

[699] When Mussolini came to power, he made the trains run on time.

[700] But when it came to being ready for war on Germany's schedule, that was a different matter.

[701] Welcome to True Spies.

[702] The podcast that takes you deep inside the greatest secret missions of all time.

[703] Suddenly out of the dark, it's a bit in love.

[704] You'll meet the people who live life undercover.

[705] What do they know?

[706] What are their skills?

[707] And what would you do in their position?

[708] Vengeance felt good.

[709] Seeing these people pay for what they'd done felt righteous.

[710] True Spies from Spyscape Studios, wherever you get your podcasts.