Dr Aria - Mental Health, Marriage and Mindfulness

[0] You've made a great decision.

[1] And I say this as impartially as I possibly can, but this podcast is, it's really the reason why I started the Dyer of a CEO.

[2] It's to hear these kinds of stories from these kinds of people.

[3] And I've got to be honest with you, I spent about a year asking this person to come on this podcast and have a conversation with me. Today's guest is Dr. Aria.

[4] And he's been on the podcast once before.

[5] He's a world -renowned high -performance coach and he works with some of the world's most accomplished athletes, actors and everyone in between as they try and reach a mindset state that is conducive with success, with happiness, and with overall fulfillment.

[6] But he's not here to talk about that today.

[7] He's here to talk about something very, very different, something uncomfortable, something unimaginable.

[8] So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Dyer of a CEO.

[9] I hope nobody is listening.

[10] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[11] Sometimes in life, you have these unbelievable, somewhat cruel coincidences that occur, that it's hard to make sense of.

[12] And last time you came on this podcast, I would define it as, for me anyway, a pretty cruel coincidence, because we had a conversation to do with life generally and success and the mindset and psychology and all the things that you're an expert on.

[13] And for whatever reason, that day, I decided that I wanted to spend 30 minutes talking about marriage, cheating, love, and asking you these very personal questions about monogamy, which I've never done before with any guest ever, and which I really had no place or reason to ask you more than anyone else.

[14] And it just feels to me, for what we're going to talk about in part today, that that was a bit of a cruel coincidence.

[15] And, you know, one of the questions I asked you was um do you believe in monogamy and then i asked you can you love someone and cheat on them and when i listened to that podcast back i now noticed um why you laughed because it wasn't a you laughed yeah and it wasn't a normal laugh it was like a real belly laugh yeah like a bit of a nervous belly laugh yeah after we came off air on that podcast you told me something and uh it even gives me goosebumps now thinking about what you said.

[16] And it gave the whole team in the room who overheard our conversation goosebumps as well.

[17] So after our 30 -minute conversation about marriage and monogamy and cheating and love, what did you say to me?

[18] I told you a story.

[19] Yeah.

[20] And that was about two weeks earlier.

[21] I'd been traveling back from London home.

[22] And I got out of the train station and my wife picked me up and we got into the car and we had planned to go and have a brunch at my favorite little spot.

[23] They do amazing Khorva's Rancho sauce.

[24] I was very excited.

[25] And she said, let's go straight home.

[26] I've made sandwiches.

[27] And she doesn't make great sandwiches.

[28] So I said, no, no, I think the brunch is a better option.

[29] And she said, no, there's something that I need to tell you.

[30] And I said, is it bad?

[31] And she said, yes.

[32] And I said, is that about the marriage?

[33] And she said, yes.

[34] and then we began to drive back and I had the sinking feeling in me and we drove for about five minutes in silence and then I went to put my hand on her lap and she said don't don't touch me because you won't want you after I've told you what's happened and that's whenever it dropped and I remember that 10 minute drive back home then felt like an eternity I was just looking at the window And we got home, we got into the house into the kitchen, and I was standing by the kitchen table, hands arrested on it, and I said, what's happened?

[35] And she said, I've been having an affair with a man from work.

[36] And I remember just tears began to stream.

[37] I didn't move completely emotionless.

[38] Tears began to stream.

[39] And then she said, and that's not all.

[40] And she said, I'm pregnant with this child.

[41] And in that moment, it felt like I lost a lot.

[42] You know, I'd lost my wife.

[43] I'd lost life we'd created.

[44] I'd lost the dog, our home, her parents, a lot, her family, everything that I'd really held dear.

[45] If someone said, what makes a meaningful life, I would have described these things.

[46] And it felt like they'd just been snatched away, he just came crumbling down like a house of cards.

[47] And then fast forward two weeks.

[48] And Steve decides to ask.

[49] And I remember because the first thing, no, no, it's fascinating because the first thing you asked was, you're married, right?

[50] And I do this high -pitched laugh.

[51] And I go, ha ha ha ha, yes.

[52] And then in conversation flowed on.

[53] And it's themes I'd really thought about.

[54] Can you love someone and cheating them?

[55] Does monogamy exist?

[56] Is it natural?

[57] Are we set up to live a life where we're in one relationship with one person only?

[58] And so with the past 18 months, it's been a process, and some of these themes have been very real to me. I just, as I reflect on that conversation and when I played it back, after you told me, So we come off air, we stood next to the table and the microphones, and you explain to me what's happened.

[59] I'm, for the first time in my life, completely speechless.

[60] And the thing that blew me away, even more so than what you'd said to me, was your ability to be so calm and rational and objective in the answers you gave.

[61] And even when I listen back now, although there was that laugh, which was a bit of an indication, you were able to speak about someone betraying.

[62] you or being deceitful with a level of calmness and apparent emotional sort of restraint that I just admired so much from someone that was right in the middle of the emotional hurricane and had just been victim of that act.

[63] And you said that, you know, about the topic of monogamy.

[64] How did that change your opinion and also the subsequent 18 months of processing on the topic of monogamy?

[65] So as a quick aside, I like that analogy.

[66] And we touched upon it briefly about the hurricane.

[67] And it's funny actually because a friend of mine showed me a book about a week ago.

[68] And it was different personality profiles depending on the day that you'd been born on.

[69] And when we looked mine up, there's a little meditation at the end, a summary.

[70] And it said, the stillest part of the hurricane is its center.

[71] and that essentially has been a philosophy that's guided my life where sometimes there's a storm and it's horrendous and it's raging but if you can cultivate that sense of stillness and calmness and clarity deep within you no matter what life throws at you you will be okay because the second part of whenever I was told that news and the tears were streaming And I felt that sense of loss and overwhelming sadness.

[72] It was a remarkable moment where in that instant, and I can only describe it as a whisper, I heard a whisper within me, as if it was resonating from a heart, that all will be well.

[73] Forward, all will be well.

[74] All will be well.

[75] And I knew, even then, I knew whenever there's tumultuous emotion, I knew everything's going to be okay.

[76] I will get through this.

[77] I'm going to have to walk through the desert and I'm going to have to endure horrific amount to an emotional level, but it's all going to be fine.

[78] How did you know that?

[79] I think it's something that I've cultivated over 10, 15 years, and that's why I do what I do now, because I want to help other people to go to reach that stage.

[80] And it began on a journey of Buddhist exploration and understanding the nature of life.

[81] And I came to this realization that, life involves suffering.

[82] There's no promise that it's going to be happy -go -lucky and really pleasant all the time.

[83] Really horrific things happen in life.

[84] And on one level, there's no way that we can ever rationally explain it away.

[85] Sometimes bad things happen, but it doesn't end there.

[86] It's a bit like that line that someone wants sent to me. Whenever you're suffering, don't ask God, why am I suffering?

[87] Ask God, where are you taking?

[88] taking me. And so I've developed this ability to begin to view my life as though it's happening to someone else, as though the experience, the thoughts, the emotions are something that I can almost take it back on and have perspective.

[89] And I can see it and I can feel it.

[90] But I know that my thoughts, that isn't just who I am.

[91] My emotions isn't just through my own.

[92] That's a temporary experience and and throughout my life no matter what has happened even whenever it's been brutal it's often shifted me in a new trajectory and there's been a new meaningful life ahead of me and i knew even then she's going to be okay she'll be okay it's going to be a tough road for her too but she'll be okay and it's going to be a tough road for me to but i will be okay anger.

[93] So many people in that situation, whether rightly or wrongly, just because of the way that they are, would have reacted with anger.

[94] And for some reason, you were both calm in telling me, you're calm now.

[95] And this remarkable thing which I, I think I, I struggle to understand a little bit is one of your first concerns was her well -being versus your own.

[96] Why?

[97] Because I loved her and I was in the practice of placing her emotional well -being and her happiness on the same level of mine, if not sometimes, first and foremostly, but at least on unequal playing field.

[98] And I was just so in that habit and that was the toughest thing to let go of.

[99] The thing that I still struggle with today, And I'm still, it's the one part that I realized the other day, that I still had a fear of upsetting her or of her not being okay.

[100] And so that's something which just really developed and was so ingrained.

[101] And it's interesting on the point of anger, if you said, like, your wife, partner for 10 years, married for 5, has an affair and is pregnant with another man's child, you react.

[102] I would have said anger.

[103] I'd be furious.

[104] But it wasn't there.

[105] At least not initially, it was this overwhelming sense of sadness.

[106] It was just that sense of loss of knowing that, again, that she's potentially done something that she might regret for a long time when I don't want anyone to go through that experience where they feel like they've fucked up hugely.

[107] Even if the future is positive in that moment, my sense is there will be regret or at least shame.

[108] And so it was a sadness because that was connected to the loss, the sense of loss of losing things that I held dear.

[109] It feels like you're living outside your body a little bit.

[110] I guess that's what self -awareness is, or at least emotional awareness is, because you're being able to see that situation, which is utterly horrific for anyone.

[111] Yeah.

[112] From, as you say, from like a bird's eye view, as if you've like looking down on it.

[113] And that's allowing you not to just feel your own emotions, but to feel empathy towards theirs.

[114] Yeah.

[115] And I think that's the path, in my eyes, that's the path to enlightenment.

[116] And I'm not saying that I am enlightened, but I think we're all on that path and we're all progressing through it.

[117] And for me, that's what awareness is.

[118] It's being able to experience internally your thoughts and your emotions and externally what's happened as if it's happening to someone else.

[119] You're like holding them out in front of you and analyzing them, right?

[120] But if you're not holding them out in front of you and it's happening within you, then you are just almost like a passenger on a roller coaster.

[121] Totally.

[122] Whereas holding them out in front of you kind of makes you the conductor or the roller coaster or at least able to, yeah, understand.

[123] And if you can understand, then you can address and then you can overcome.

[124] Totally.

[125] I love it.

[126] Whenever you're holding it really close to you, you're fused with it.

[127] Anything that happens instantly will provoke a reaction, whether or not it's emotional or behavioral.

[128] But when you hold it in front of you, there's a bit more space.

[129] Now, you still experience it.

[130] I'm not going to lie to you.

[131] It was a brutal couple of months.

[132] I cried every day for maybe three months, for hours, hours.

[133] I would walk and I'd process what happened.

[134] And if you want, we can talk about that at some point about my process of moving through it.

[135] But yes, it was, I'm not going to say it wasn't emotionally painful, but I wasn't defined by that pain.

[136] That was just a part that I was.

[137] Let's talk about that.

[138] So a lot of people experience grief in many forms, and this somewhat feels like the central emotion.

[139] You described it as a loss.

[140] It feels like a form of grief.

[141] What was your process for moving from, you know, finding out that it happened to where you are today, where you're, you know, you've quote and quote, processed it, I imagine as much as you might have been able to at this stage.

[142] Yeah.

[143] What was your process?

[144] The where I think people often catch themselves in a counterproductive cycle is whenever they try and avoid experiencing what they're experiencing.

[145] They try and shut it, lock it it away, put it in a box, disconnect from it, deny it, and they just focus on the future and where I am going and they might try and rationalize it.

[146] This happened because of X or because of Y, and then they try and forge ahead.

[147] and I think it comes back to bite them at some point.

[148] The simplest truth is that we can only ever experience one moment at a time.

[149] And I remind myself of that.

[150] I don't need to think about it right now the financial separation, the divorce, what it means about friends or family or will I meet someone again, or how long will it be or what will my life look like or where am I going to live?

[151] So many different factors that could be overwhelming.

[152] I just decided to deal with one moment at a time.

[153] All I need to do is deal with this one moment.

[154] And what is this one morning bringing me and accepting and welcoming?

[155] It sounds strange, but welcoming whatever comes up.

[156] And so whatever emotion came up, I didn't try and push it away or shunt it or deny it or negate it.

[157] I let it sit.

[158] And that's why I cried so much because there was so much sadness.

[159] Did you write down the emotions you were experiencing?

[160] So I didn't write down the emotion.

[161] But what I did in the next step is, so the first step was awareness and accepting whatever emotions I felt.

[162] And seeing that they come and then they go.

[163] You know, there'd be a moment where I'd be laughing with my brother and then crying a minute later and then talking about something else.

[164] The second step was reminding myself of reality because I was so ingrained in an internal.

[165] model of what life looked like.

[166] I have a strong, stable marriage in which my partner subconsciously, you know, implicitly, I believe is faithful.

[167] We're meant to be together.

[168] We're going to be together for the next 50, 60 years until one of us dies.

[169] We're going to have children together.

[170] That was my internal model.

[171] And I had to rip it apart.

[172] I had to take it down.

[173] I to dismantle it.

[174] And I had to remind myself of the reality of the situation.

[175] I had to, I had to accept it.

[176] It's over.

[177] It's not going to change.

[178] There's no going back.

[179] The final nail is in the coffin.

[180] And you need to take that on board.

[181] And I'd also write any, I'd write down reminders of what had happened.

[182] And I also wrote down any insights I had about the situation that I could remind myself of and I wrote down how I wanted to handle this process.

[183] I can actually read a few out if you want.

[184] Please, please.

[185] I've got, um, so I literally would just write them down on my phone.

[186] Um, and so afterwards, I began to split them up into different sections.

[187] Mm -hmm.

[188] But this one was for the process.

[189] Hold yourself to the highest standard.

[190] choose actions that you can be proud of.

[191] How you get through this process is more important than how quickly you get through this process.

[192] Because for me, it's important that I still lived with personal integrity, that I didn't, that I wasn't warped or changed or consumed with vengeance or acted in ways that was out of spite or out of emotion.

[193] I wanted to be able to look back on this in 12 months, 18 months.

[194] time and still feel good about it.

[195] Have a clear conscience still able to put my head down and feel as though I handled that to the best of my ability.

[196] With God, you can get through this.

[197] You can become stronger, wiser, more caring, more compassionate and more loving.

[198] And that's another theme that actually the deepest moments of suffering can actually be opportunities for growth.

[199] Even if you don't want it, there's something there that you can learn and can grow from.

[200] You don't know.

[201] You don't need anything from her anymore.

[202] And then different reminders, you have nothing to feel bad about.

[203] You aren't responsible.

[204] You have nothing to feel guilty about, nothing.

[205] Because there were moments where my mind would almost begin to, in a way, play a trick on me and begin to try and create reasons to feel bad or to try and create shame.

[206] And at those times, while I would accept what came up, I decided not to pursue that line of thinking because that didn't fit.

[207] Whenever I was calm and clear, this came to me. And so I'd write down whatever came to me whenever I was in a place of wisdom.

[208] Then when the emotion hit and I'm not seen clearly and I've got on a clouded lens, this little baby became my best friend because I'd go back to it.

[209] And I'd remind myself and then it would reshift my mental paradigm.

[210] I have this um before please do keep your phone open because I want to hear the rest of this but I have this um analogy I make in moments where I experience a very similar thing that I'm going to say one example yeah it's the closest I can come to resonating with what your experience is I was dating this girl and I broke up with her and three days later I find out that she's had sex with someone else right and I can only the way that I described it was I'm flying on this plane and I'm the pilot and then suddenly when I when I look down and hear the news that she's just slept with somebody else yeah it was like terrorists stormed the cockpit and they chucked the fucking rational pilot out and they were threatening to crash the whole fucking thing and my whole objective is the pilot is to get back into the cockpit before they crash this plane into the side of a mountain because if they crash the plane I'm fucked and so yeah what I wanted to do was lose my integrity.

[211] I wanted to crash the plane.

[212] I wanted to get her back, take revenge, tell her she's a this, this, this, this and a this and a this and a this.

[213] And it was this, because I've got to a place where I'm able to hold situations out in front of me a little bit more than I ever was, you know, in the past.

[214] I was at war with myself.

[215] Yeah.

[216] It was the terrorists on one end telling me to crash the plane and the pilot saying, you've been here before, you know, you just need to keep the plane in the air until you know.

[217] And I, and I'm so I'm going for a run.

[218] I'm like, Steve, go to the gym, go for a run.

[219] clear your head I'm at the gym the terrorist and I'm like I'm gonna finish back in and then I come back and back in and the crazy conclusion to all of this was my friend called me and said a few things to me about why she did what she did my friend said to me remember Steve you rejected her she really really really likes you and she's done this as a way to make herself feel better for the rejection that you gave her and it sounds like such a pathetic thing to say.

[220] But what it made me realize in that moment was much of the reason why the terrorists had stormed was my ego was bruised.

[221] And the thing that coached those terrorists out the cockpit was my friend massaging my ego again and letting me know that some of those stories we sometimes tell ourselves when we get rejected about why we got rejected weren't true.

[222] It's not because you're not enough.

[223] It's in fact because of something you've done.

[224] And that was the reason why I managed to take control of the cockpit.

[225] I did nothing.

[226] I didn't punish her in any way, didn't even mention it.

[227] And it was, and so, yeah, but please.

[228] Two, two things come to me there.

[229] One is this emotion of anger.

[230] So, fascinatingly, 95 % of the emotion for me was sadness.

[231] Five percent was anger.

[232] And the anger struck early on.

[233] It was the first night.

[234] And I remember my brother had come over and was staying with me. And I woke up in the middle of the night.

[235] the night of that day that she told me. And it was like my body was burning.

[236] I haven't experienced, I can go like that before.

[237] It was almost like I was a flame.

[238] I was just infused with rage.

[239] And I began, and I really feel for my brother having to witness this, but I was just moving up and down, shouting as loudly as I could, my wife, my house, my wife, my house and for five minutes it was like a supernova it just was just seething and then it burnt out and I cried and I fell asleep and the next day and then the anger didn't really come much it would come now and again but what I realized was the anger was intimately attached to my ego the anger came whenever I was attached to my ego and I'm very fortunate that I'm able to detach from my ego the majority of the time.

[240] But when I didn't, that's when it hurt.

[241] Because it came about my wife, as if I own her, as if there's ownership, as if it's a part of me. I don't own her.

[242] She's free.

[243] My house.

[244] I didn't even own the house.

[245] The mortgage company did.

[246] But as soon as we link it to ourselves and make it about us, then it's a place of vulnerability because you're getting inflicted, it's like getting stabbed in the heart.

[247] You feel that.

[248] But it's an illusion because we are not our ego.

[249] You know, we can see our ego and have a relationship to our ego, but once we refuse with it, we're in trouble.

[250] And the other part of it is that, because I don't want to come across like a saint, like I didn't have dark thoughts or, you know, I wasn't angry and I just handled it with grace the entire time.

[251] But I operate from a principle.

[252] that the mind has a mind of its own, and I think we talked about it last time.

[253] But essentially, your mind will populate your head with thoughts automatically.

[254] You're not asking for them.

[255] It'll just come up with judges, evaluations, assessments, predictions about the future, past memories, imagine scenarios.

[256] You know, if I said, okay, Steve, don't think about anything right now just for 10 seconds have a complete blank mind and i'm going to say a word but don't think about anything okay so we'll just do it now don't think about a thing birthday okay right so even though you were attempting not to think about anything your mind came up with it automatically and from my perspective we are not our thoughts we have thoughts our mind comes up with thoughts but that's not me i am the observer of the thought now why is that i'm important because my mind would come up with really brutal thoughts what thoughts like torturing the guy really yeah getting in a car finding him in the back of the van and doing this elaborate elaborate of what I would do to him absolutely because my mind was thinking about about seeking vengeance justice justice and it was like a Hollywood movie yeah and somehow no one found out I went back a lot my day, you know?

[257] And so, yes, you can have those.

[258] Or whenever I was in deep pain, the thought of ending my life popped into my head.

[259] I didn't have any intent.

[260] I wasn't making any plans.

[261] I didn't want to kill myself.

[262] But my mind wanted a way out of the pain.

[263] It was suffering, and it wanted an end to it.

[264] And what is one option killing yourself?

[265] And so, when i've got a different relationship though with these thoughts when i think about torturing someone or i think or when my mind comes up with a thought of torturing someone or my mind comes up with the thought of taking my life there's no judgment i don't think oh that means i must want to do it or that means that i will do it or that means i'm a bad person or that means that i'm evil it just means my mind I think what is my mind trying to do it's trying to solve a solution and it's probably struggling to cope and it's trying to find a way to make me feel better Neo on this podcast who came on this podcast talked about how the mind is actually people think we're in the search of pleasure but the mind is programmed to avoid discomfort yeah we're constantly in trying to seek avoid it and that's why we procrastinate because we've got a big project which is we may not feel competent to complete or you know we're a bit there's a feeling of discomfort around it So we go and wash the dishes, we'll do the hoovering.

[266] Yeah.

[267] On the, on the, on the, you mentioned wanting to torture this man. Well, I know, right.

[268] So like a moment of the mind having.

[269] What my mind did, Steve.

[270] Your mind is clarified.

[271] You didn't want to.

[272] You're a peace loving kind of guy.

[273] I just.

[274] But I wanted to know, how do you feel about him?

[275] So it's really interesting.

[276] I, um, this stage, the, the, the process went, awareness and acceptance.

[277] how I wanted to handle the process.

[278] And then at some point, I realized I needed to find forgiveness.

[279] I'm quite a simple person, and I don't like having a lot of items or objects or physical possessions, and I don't like having a lot of emotional baggage either.

[280] I want to travel light.

[281] I want to travel so lightly I could pass through the eye of a needle, so to speak.

[282] and the weight of anger or resentment or the feelings of betrayal were weighing me down.

[283] And I wanted to forgive her and I wanted to forgive him.

[284] And honestly, you could view it as ultimately selfish because it's not going to impact their life, but it's going to make mine a lot easier.

[285] And during lockdown, I was in California.

[286] and I was lucky because in Santa Barbara, where I was staying, the mayor didn't close the beaches because there's a lot of families there and he said as long as you socially distance, it's fine.

[287] And I'd run along the beach.

[288] And I had this process where I would say out loud, I would imagine her and I'd say, I forgive you.

[289] I'm sending you my love and I wish you all the best for the future.

[290] And I'd processed so much by that at that point because I'd been able to understand and see her situation.

[291] And in my mind, I have an idea of how it was created and why it unfolded.

[292] And so there was compassion there and I was able to reach that really relatively quickly.

[293] That was easy.

[294] The hard part was with him because I didn't know him.

[295] I didn't know his personality, his background, who he was, he could be a great friend and an excellent son or potentially a very loving partner.

[296] But all I knew about him was that he was prepared to take certain actions.

[297] And so whenever I tried it with him and I'd say, I forgive you, it was like there was a knot and I wince and I'm like and I would say and I'm sending you my love and I'm like and I wish you all for the future but you're still imagining pulling up in that van and jumping out blindfolding and dragging and sticking something up his butt and how'd you like me now and so but I would just notice that I don't know not this tension there.

[298] And actually, I will say this was a year after I'd heard the news.

[299] So I didn't try and do this initially.

[300] I think it would have been premature to have attempted this whenever it wasn't in a space where I had a lot more clarity and groundedness and I'd process the emotion.

[301] The emotion wasn't being clouded at this point.

[302] Now it was, what am I holding on to?

[303] And for a matter of weeks, five, six weeks, I was running two, three times a week.

[304] And I would just try that.

[305] Try that process.

[306] And then one day it was remarkable.

[307] I was running along and I said, I forgive you.

[308] And there was nothing.

[309] And then I said, and I'm sending you my love.

[310] And I felt easy.

[311] And I said, and I wish all the best for the future.

[312] And I could tell that I meant it for them or their baby, you know, for them together as a family.

[313] And I felt at peace.

[314] And it's a bit like that saying, my yoke is easy, my burden is light.

[315] Now, genuinely, it sounds strange, but I don't really feel anything for them.

[316] It's almost as if, you know, if you came to me and said, I've got a friend called Mike, and he's going through a really difficult time.

[317] He was involved in a really complicated emotional relationship.

[318] Would you mind sending up positive thoughts to him and saying a prayer for him?

[319] I'd say, sure, like, he hasn't ever done anything to me. I don't have any connection with him.

[320] No problem.

[321] It's almost that sort of relationship now where there are just other people on their journey.

[322] And I had that shared history with my wife, which I look upon fondly, particularly the first eight years.

[323] We had a wonderful marriage for a long time.

[324] But there's no emotional tinge.

[325] It's like an emotional embinical cord.

[326] And what is imagining it is like?

[327] It's a letting go.

[328] Yeah.

[329] It's a letting go.

[330] And so that was, that was a part that for me, because I think there comes a time where you have to say, okay, I process it, I process it, how long do I want to hold onto it for now?

[331] And that's become my own choice.

[332] Do I want to carry this and let it define me, or do I want to finally let it go and see it float down the river?

[333] And I think, you know, even you're someone that has.

[334] a remarkable ability to practice like self -awareness and you know you have that sort of like emotional awareness as well and it's good to hear i think for everybody listening to this that even your process to from finding it out to you know being emotionally unentached to the matter to the point that you can forgive both of them wasn't linear at all it was up it was down it was up it was down and it was long and i think people sometimes um think that their experience of rejection or deceit or, you know, any of these things is uniquely bad because their process to recovery, per se, isn't linear and it's long.

[335] And it feels like the more I've talked about this topic and the more people I've met and, you know, from hearing your experiences, that in fact is the only way out.

[336] And I actually think realizing that that's the only way out will make your process out of that deceit or betrayal feel normal and natural and okay and therefore acceptable and I think that's a really important point that you've made through the story you've told absolutely and each person's journey will be unique and there will be peaks and troughs and a little wax and wain and I'm very aware that it's possible that my journey happened over a relatively short period of because of my history and my background.

[337] As a psychologist, as a high -performance expert, this is the area that I deal with.

[338] It's what developing emotional resilience.

[339] It's how do you help people to cope with high -stakes environments when they've lost a sense of balance in their life, when they're struggling in their relationships, whenever they experience something in life, which throws them, how do you get back up?

[340] This is what I've been trained to do for 15 years.

[341] Isn't it weird that life sent you, this challenge when you think about your experience.

[342] Isn't it?

[343] There must be a part of you that, because I think I would.

[344] I would think to myself, life is testing me to see if I can deal with the worst and still maintain the values and principles that I espouse.

[345] Like, yeah, it, it sounds, this all sound really odd, but I almost felt, at times I thought in a way, I'm so lucky, because I'm so lucky that I am where I am when this happened.

[346] this had happened 10 years ago, I would have been in a vastly different space.

[347] Why?

[348] Because I struggled 10 years to cope with what life gave me on an emotional level, and I would react out of the emotion.

[349] So I'd experience it, and then I would just react.

[350] And essentially, that's when we make terrible decisions.

[351] Oh, you crash the plane.

[352] We crash the plane.

[353] If you look at NASA astronauts, they prepare for, for the sequence of events leading up to launch.

[354] And they run through that over 100 times, from putting on the kit to traveling down to the launch space to what could go wrong.

[355] And they rehearse it and they run it through.

[356] And it's a way of being able to stay calm whenever there is uncertainty or turbulence or danger or threat.

[357] Because that's whenever, that's the person you really want to be, whenever there's an emergency, like we talked about in the podcast, you want to be the person that still has an air, a pocket, a space of clarity that isn't affected.

[358] So that even though you're experiencing all these emotions on a very physical level, deep down, you're still grounded.

[359] You can take it.

[360] And so from where I was, I did feel as though I'm fortunate that life is thrown at me something that in my mind was one of the worst things that I could experience.

[361] There's lots of worse things without a shadow of a doubt, but it was a big one and find a way to move through.

[362] And incredibly, it's informed even my work.

[363] Because in the last year, again, whether it's coincidence or not, I don't know, the number of clients I've been working with on relationship issues has gone up exponentially.

[364] And if issues centered on a loss of connection, a loss of intimacy, betrayal, confusion, how do you stay true to who you are in a relationship with someone else where you feel like there's a shift or you wake up one day and you're in a space where you don't know how you got there, where you become like best friends living together rather than the passionate lovers you were 10 years ago.

[365] You talked there a second about the calm that astronauts are trained to develop and how crucial that is to making good decisions.

[366] I saw this quote the other day and it said when emotions go go up, intellect comes down.

[367] And I was thinking about just then, as you said that, I was thinking, what are the factors that make somebody not calm?

[368] And then I thought, and they kind of answered myself, I thought, okay, so we talked about the ego playing a big role.

[369] And so I guess my conclusion there is the people who will struggle to maintain their calm in situations like that that are so personally associated are those with the lowest self -esteem and the most fragile ego.

[370] And it feels like the work that you've described that you've done over the last 10 years is really like building your self -esteem and really, in some respects, a separation from ego.

[371] Yeah.

[372] You've nailed it.

[373] One, we know on a neural level, so we know from neuroimaging studies that when we experience emotion, the prefrontal cortex, they part the brain responsible for judgment, decision making, impulse control, planning goes offline.

[374] It shuts down.

[375] So we don't have access to that creativity, the wisdom that we have usually.

[376] And again, absolutely, I think the journey, for me, the journey of life involves developing a robust sense of self.

[377] a sense of self that is unshakable that is immovable that still experiences life and the whole gamut of emotions and the beauty and loveliness of life and also the darkness and the destruction of life but isn't impacted on an essential level by it and i think that's the journey and that's the journey that i work on with clients no matter what the outwardly symptoms of are.

[378] It could be waking.

[379] It could be relationship dysfunction.

[380] It could be struggling to experience that sense of contentment or fulfillment in life, even though I have everything that life says I should have.

[381] It could be feeling like I'm lacking or I'm just not doing enough or I'm not being enough.

[382] But it all comes back to that stronger sense of self.

[383] And this, you know, horrific experience, what has it done to your opinion of monogamy?

[384] Because I'm sure, I'm guessing from what you've said, the way that you'd planned your life ahead, you thought, when you, you know, when you walked down the aisle and you said those words till death do us part, you then planned the next 60 years of your life and how your life was going to pan out.

[385] And when you said those words at the end of the, at the altar, you were totally convinced, totally convinced that this person was the person, your soulmate, how do you feel about all of those concepts now like soulmate and monogamy and till death doers part?

[386] The experience led me to a position where I began to question my deepest assumptions about monogamy, about marriage, about lifelong relationships.

[387] And in the same way, I began to take a step back and reflect and contemplate, I became very aware that there is a, social script for relationships and it generally goes the conventional model is boy meets girl it's not even boy meets boy or girl meets girl there's a first date a first kiss uh a period of courting at some point um there will be sex meeting the parents hopefully not at the same time eventually the relationship becomes uh exclusive and engagement marriage children told death do as part.

[388] And I realize that that is a social construction.

[389] It's a conventional model based on assumptions that monogamy is natural, that marriage is a human universal, and that any structure other than the nuclear one is aberrant.

[390] And so then I began to think, okay, well, what are the different, what are the different elements?

[391] So on the one hand, we can take, and we touch upon it briefly, a evolutionary perspective.

[392] And we are apes.

[393] It's not just that we've descended from apes.

[394] We are apes.

[395] We're one of the five homo sapiens are one of the five surviving species of great apes, along with orangutans, bonobles, gorillas, and chimpanzees.

[396] And yet, At some point, we separated from that psychologically.

[397] And actually, the fine print that distinguishes humans from other great -aids has been described by primatologists as wholly inadequate.

[398] It's a fabrication.

[399] And at some stage, we began to see ourselves as special and unique and above nature and exempt from our primal history.

[400] Because we descended from hypersexual ancestors.

[401] So if the homo lineage has been around for 2 million years, modern humans have been around for 200 ,000 years.

[402] And about 10 ,000 years ago, there was a shift in going from hunter -gatherers to settle communities because of the advent of agriculture.

[403] Now, up until 10 ,000 years ago, the data now suggests that we actually lived by fiercely egalitarian principles.

[404] Everything was shared.

[405] Food, shelter, water, childcare and even sexual partners.

[406] Casual sexuality was the norm for our prehistoric ancestors.

[407] For 95 % of the collective experience of our lineage, that is what we experienced.

[408] And it wasn't based on meaningless, random relationships.

[409] They were relationships that reinforced a social pattern that we needed to survive.

[410] At minimise our risk and it reinforced social ties.

[411] But then with the advent of agriculture, we began to settle.

[412] We had land.

[413] We had domesticated animals.

[414] And for the first time private property came into play.

[415] And suddenly there was a change.

[416] And there's even a change in the status of women.

[417] Because when we look at it, the human and female up until that point was on an equal playing field, they were as responsible for the hunting and the cooking and making decisions about where they were going to settle.

[418] And then it changed.

[419] And the female became the property of the man, something that he had to maintain and keep.

[420] And actually, the reason that property came into place is because we weren't moving.

[421] So it did matter what happened to our resources.

[422] We were accumulating.

[423] And biological paternity for the first time became crucial.

[424] And so on a natural evolutionary level, monogamy didn't exist.

[425] We didn't live in long -term monogamous relationships.

[426] Then we bring in marriage.

[427] And if we fast forward about 5 .5 ,000 years, in about 2 ,350 BC and in Mesopotamia, we had the first marriage between the union between a man and a woman.

[428] And over the next few hundred years, it spread.

[429] The ancient Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, they began to adopt this widespread practice.

[430] But marriage had a very different meaning across the ages.

[431] In the fifth century with Anglo -Saxons, it was about securing trade ties.

[432] It was a diplomatic tool.

[433] In the 11th century, marriage was about financial, economic, and political advantage.

[434] And as early as the 12th, religion became involved, and Roman Catholicism tied it to sacrament and to being a sacred experience related to experiencing God.

[435] Then about 500 years ago, Thomas Cranmer came up with the modern -day marital vials that we read out today, and he was architecture of English Protestantism.

[436] And then up until 1858, divorce was rare.

[437] Marriage was something which was lifelong, and it wasn't really questioned.

[438] But then it became a legal process that you could apply to do.

[439] And it was still relatively uncommon because it was expensive and a woman had to prove aggravated adultery, bestiality, sodomy, cruelty.

[440] And then the divorce gates really opened up in 1969 with the Divorce Reform Act and Marital Breakdown could then be cited.

[441] So whenever we begin to take a different lens and we see the journey that it's taken and then we ask, well, where are we today?

[442] Since 1975, there's been a drop in marriages by about 30%.

[443] More people are now opting to cohabit than they are to get married.

[444] Divorce statistics in England and Wales are at 42%.

[445] You could arguably say that the system is collapsing, that it is beginning to crumble.

[446] And I don't even take a cultural lens.

[447] And if I'm talking too much, just...

[448] No, it's fascinating.

[449] Jump in there.

[450] But fascinating.

[451] Culturally, the Spanish word esposas means wife and handcuffs.

[452] We joke about the wife being the ball and chain.

[453] A friend got married, got married, got engaged last week.

[454] And the talk amongst the boys was, this is the beginning of the end of your sex life.

[455] Yeah.

[456] But women don't fare any better.

[457] You know, 43 % of American women report sexual dysfunction Viagra sales are increasing every year.

[458] They're just record highs year upon year.

[459] Born is through the fucking reef.

[460] Not that I would know.

[461] Yeah.

[462] A friend told me. The porn industry takes in about 57 to $100 billion world wide.

[463] A US report showed that Americans spend more at strip clubs and they do it Broadway, off -Broadway, non -profit and regional theatres, the ballet, jazz, and the opera, collectively.

[464] We look at the church and there have been hundreds of Roman Catholic priests admitting to thousands of sex crimes.

[465] In 2008, they paid up $436 million to victims of sexual abuse, a fifth were under the age of five.

[466] and these aren't that's not to mention the forgotten victims and we have to ask yourself one how do we get here two how was that story constructed and three is marriage giving us what we want and is it realistic and is it feasible so number three so where am i with that yeah yeah i'm still touring i'll be totally honest with you i can say it I can imagine, okay, so I can imagine on the one hand, I can imagine being in a relationship with a woman and being with that one woman for the rest of my life.

[467] I can also imagine being with someone in a relationship and having more than one sexual partner.

[468] But if it was flipped around and someone asked me, would you want your partners to be with other men?

[469] I'd say hell no, of course.

[470] Like, it just seems, that is not something because I'm so strongly programmed against that, even though that's potentially the biological heritage, I can't imagine being with someone who's with other people, I wouldn't want to be in that situation.

[471] And I'm aware of the acute hypocrisy contained within it.

[472] Yeah.

[473] I think everyone feels the same way to some degree.

[474] I think people that tell you otherwise are probably talking shit because they're playing defense against not wanting to happen to them to some degree, right?

[475] But it's a, and I think it's an ideal situation for yourself, but not for the person you're with, from your perspective.

[476] I read this book a long time ago called The Mystery Method by one of the world's number one pickup artist.

[477] And I don't know if this is true, but what he was saying was men are programmed in a way that seeks the woman to be faithful for them because the risk, the evolutionary risk was if I impregnate you as my wife, or no, so if, I'm committed to you as my wife, and then you are, you cheat on me and get pregnant with someone else's child, I will then spend my resources, my energy, my time, raising someone else's child, and then my genetics won't pass on, that person's will.

[478] And essentially, if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, I then wouldn't have existed if I didn't have that concern about making sure my sperm was the one that reached the egg.

[479] So you think about it from an evolutionary perspective.

[480] You wouldn't exist if your ancestors hadn't done a brilliant job of making sure their sperm hit the egg.

[481] And one of the ways of doing that was making sure it wasn't another guy's sperm hitting the egg by being territorial, by being whatever.

[482] And on the other side, from the woman's perspective, the book talks about how, you know, if a woman got eight months pregnant tens of thousands of years ago, she can no longer hunt and gather for herself.

[483] So really she has to find a partner that isn't going to abscond, that isn't going to bounce, especially once they've had sex.

[484] And so the book kind of talks about some of the reasons why, you know, in society we typically think women are more in search of a relationship and are trying to, you know, get a guy more than men are typically, is because from the evolution perspective, they would have died on the savannah in Africa or whatever if the guy had sex with them, impregnated them at a time when we didn't have birth control.

[485] got the mate months pregnant and then bounced.

[486] Yeah.

[487] And I don't know how true that is, but it's something that I've believed because I've read this book for some time.

[488] So that's the dominant, traditional understanding of human sexuality.

[489] Because whenever you look at other species, yes, it's about essentially an aggressive alpha male than being with a female and knowing that...

[490] their offspring has been continued through that lineage.

[491] There's an alternative which has come out more recently where, I know there was a paper published in science in 2015 that actually showed that what separated humans from other great apes was our social organization.

[492] Yeah, about 10 ,000 years ago, we started living next to water and in camps.

[493] Exactly.

[494] Yeah, and then we were a tribe, essentially.

[495] I've read about that.

[496] And up until that point, though, it's very possible that we had multiple sexual partners but biological paternity was less of a concern because our structure was such that so what we found out now is we didn't used to live with our close relatives we actually created social ties with other individuals and so we're set in such a way that the focus wasn't ever on individual survival it was on group survival group identity, group welfare.

[497] And the reason is, it's the group that keeps you alive anyway.

[498] And so it's very possible that then there was a shift which happened actually with this advent of private property, because that's whenever paternity would matter.

[499] Because there's some hunter -gatherer communities that believe when multiple men have sex with a female, that it's to collectively, because you have to think, where does our understanding of the sperm and the embryo come from?

[500] That's very recent.

[501] It's a very recent biological understanding.

[502] Our ancestors wouldn't have known that.

[503] And there are some beliefs where collectively the men contribute to the production of the child.

[504] But actually, it's almost like an amalgamation of the different men and creates that child.

[505] And that child becomes part of the group as opposed to that one person's child.

[506] And this is the thing, just to like challenge that thinking, say that there was one man in the group that was slightly better and making sure he was the one that inseminated the female, his genes would pass on, his genetics would pass on as being slightly better for whatever reason and inseminating a woman.

[507] and therefore in the next round of the next generation he would have a slight advantage that the kid of that man would have a slight genetic predisposition for being good at that which would increase the probability that they would pass on again and again and again and it seems like that those genetics and that ability to be good at inseminating whether it's through being territorial or being stronger or being more persuasive or being more of a peacock through generations over the space of a million years from the chimps, that would create a scenario where we are programmed to be through our psychology and our behavior and our peacocking good at, you know, at winning, even through slightly more malicious methods.

[508] Yeah.

[509] And then there's also the social conditioning and the ideas of of marriage, of monogamy, of romanticism, of what that means.

[510] And I think what I'd really come particularly through my work with clients is seeing that where people find themselves in trouble is when there's enmeshment, whenever there's too much, when there's too much closeness, when actually the identity of one person is submerged with the identity of the other.

[511] And there's no space.

[512] Did that happen to you in your marriage, where you became more like her?

[513] It's incredible that you ask that.

[514] Did that happen to you in your marriage, where you became more like her.

[515] It's incredible that you ask that.

[516] Whenever we first met, she was the sensible one.

[517] She was very prudent, very pregnant, very pregnantmatic, very level -headed.

[518] She made very safe, sensible choices in life in general, and she was known in that way.

[519] I was a bit more of a rogue.

[520] I was a little bit more mysterious.

[521] It was probably sort of, you know, hint of mischievous, of, um, of playfulness.

[522] And, and there's an idea in psychology that we all, that we seek in the other person a part of ourselves that we've lost.

[523] And so there was almost that, um, that attraction there, it created that chemistry.

[524] It drew us in together.

[525] I think she was looking for that excitement and in a way that safe danger, I was actually looking for stability and groundedness.

[526] And over time, it connected us and brought us together.

[527] But over time, a remarkable thing happened.

[528] And that is, just like you said, I began to become more like her.

[529] I became safer.

[530] And I actually lost an intrinsic part of who I was.

[531] I lost the wild child that's in me I lost the part that's a bit more dangerous that's a bit more risky that doesn't always say something which is politically correct and I became almost like a sanitized, clean version of who I was and that's not the man that she met and that's not the man that she fell in love with and on one level it worked in terms of a stable love.

[532] There was reliability.

[533] There was dependability.

[534] There was relatability.

[535] But it crushed the desire.

[536] There's a slow suffocation of that desire over the last couple of years.

[537] And so I believe that one day she woke up and she sensed that loss of connection, which I also sensed too, and that loss of intimacy and she was scared and when the mind is scared it comes up with thoughts is this it am I going to have to live like this for the next 10 20 years will I ever get that chemistry or that connection back what if it never comes back and when we're afraid we're then seeking that that part of ourselves that we've lost and so it's almost less about the other person and more about us.

[538] It's less about turning away from our partner and more about turning away from a part of ourselves.

[539] It's less about finding another person and more about finding another part of ourselves in which we feel alive.

[540] And I think the fair would have been wildly tempting, wildly exciting.

[541] It would have been all the things, it would have given her a lot of the things that we had in the beginning that she missed.

[542] And suddenly it was back.

[543] And even the structure of an affair is such that you can't have the other person and the forbidden is erotic.

[544] And it's set up in such a way that it just perpetually creates desire because it has to be secretive.

[545] It can't be long lasting for long periods of time.

[546] There's continual space.

[547] Now if fire needs air, desire needs space.

[548] And we found ourselves in a situation, which we're seeing each other every day.

[549] I used to be traveling.

[550] I used to be working away a lot more.

[551] We'd have pockets where we'd be apart.

[552] And in that pocket, even if you're away for a day or a couple of days, there's a sense of loss on a very micro level.

[553] And then a sense of excitement of the person coming back and reimagining that life together.

[554] And so going back to your point, I did.

[555] I change.

[556] And that's on, that's something which I've learned from.

[557] I've changed and I became like a squeaky clean version of me. And she ironically ended up turning towards what she'd lost.

[558] Is that something you regret?

[559] I could feel regret in the way that I said it there.

[560] Yes.

[561] Yeah, being, being honest, if I could have, if I could have changed, on one level, if I could have changed that, if I'd been aware of that and I'd seen it coming, then I would have wanted to stay true to who I am.

[562] And that's the path that I'm on now.

[563] And I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, but I want to live in line with my truth.

[564] And it's like John 832, the truth will set you free.

[565] And I believe that when we're living in line with our truth, it saves you.

[566] And whenever we neglect our truth, it destroys you.

[567] And so if I, if I'd been able to stay truthful, I think it would have been a very different trajectory.

[568] I don't, because the relationship worked on multiple levels.

[569] And it did, we had a wonderful time together for, for eight years.

[570] But it's a little bit like putting a frog in boiling water.

[571] It was in cold water and the desire is to frog.

[572] it's alive.

[573] You don't know what is to heat.

[574] There were unknown factors that were at play.

[575] And it was a dance.

[576] It was both of us.

[577] There's no, we're we both contributed to that situation.

[578] I think she wanted me to be that stable, dependable, reliable person without realizing that on a subconscious level, she actually was attracted to the man that I was.

[579] And I wanted to make her tension or or or they're being too much grit but actually tension is what creates fire at the same time and so the rough edges were a part of who I was and I didn't need to get rid of them it's so crazy it's almost quite contradictory the typical narrative you hear about relationships is especially from you know dare I say it um women movies and on Instagram is there's this conversation around can I change him and it's and it seems typically that people want to change their, or they hold out hope, or they want to change their partner in some way to make them more like the image they have of that person.

[580] Yes.

[581] But in fact, what you're describing is the thing that ends up saving the relationship is a finding someone that you love for the way that they are and you're a gratitude for the way that they are.

[582] But then both parties having a resilience to change to some degree.

[583] Because of that understanding that you, formed your relationship on the basis of this person being like this and then but then you say okay so over time people change and in fact in the last podcast we did there's a quote where you said change is the only constant so both of you are going to change anyway and you talk about the spiritual psychological change that both parties go on and again this kind of draws it back to the conversation around monogamy is you know you're going to change anyway like you 10 years ago versus you now is probably a little bit more and a little bit more, you know, solid and a little bit more rational in your thinking.

[584] And because, as you said in the last podcast, change is a constant, how do you form a, how can you guarantee that death will do you part when change might do you part first?

[585] And this kind of brings us back to the conversation around monogamy, which is, I guess this is my question to you is like, if you, what do you suspect now, if not marriage is going, to be the way that, you know, when you meet someone, what do you suspect?

[586] What's your hypothesis on how that relationship will be constructed?

[587] Me personally, yeah.

[588] I've got mine.

[589] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[590] But mine kind of, I can tell you mine if you want first.

[591] Yeah, yeah.

[592] So mine kind of draws on something.

[593] I'll just say, me too.

[594] Yeah.

[595] Yeah, yeah.

[596] We'll both go down together.

[597] So it was interesting what you said there about space being the, the air to a flame, right?

[598] Yeah, yeah.

[599] And for me, that's so critical.

[600] Earlier on, when you were talking about marriage, one of the factors you were talking about was how, where marriage came from as a social construct and how it centres on, like, you know, religion and God and all of these things.

[601] And one of the things that I think is also really important to understand is as a general first principles rule, if people are different and we all are different, every single human being on this earth is different, then the solution should be, different.

[602] Like the glove we fit is different.

[603] We have different size feet and different size hands.

[604] So the solution to love or whatever that is, as binary as it sounds, should therefore be bespoke to who you are and the life you're living in.

[605] For me, I live a life where I get my fulfillment out of the podcast and my work and it's such a big part of my wiring.

[606] I can't change that.

[607] It's the way that I am.

[608] I'm different from my brother and he's only a couple of months older than me. I'm completely different.

[609] And so as it relates to love and me having a bespoke solution to when I meet someone and I want to have kids or I want to, you know, want them to be my partner, the solution should also be bespoke.

[610] And so I look at the situation that would be right for me. And it is one that's really, really reliant on space.

[611] Yeah.

[612] I love being on my own.

[613] I'm happy there.

[614] I love having time to myself, to reflect, to think, to work on my projects.

[615] Space is such a big thing for me. So marriage and the idea of moving in with someone and then being, you know, on top of me seven days a week for the next 60 years is something that I almost can't understand.

[616] I'm not sure if I'm like psychologically fucked up and that's why I can't deal with that.

[617] But I love this idea as the founder of Fuel said on this podcast of treating my relationship with my romantic partner in the same way that I treat my relationship with my best friend.

[618] Me and my best friend seemed to get on perfectly well.

[619] And we, and I can't see a divorce ever coming.

[620] You know what I mean?

[621] Yeah.

[622] because we have that space and we have the middle ground that we meet upon, which is the relationship, but we have a fundamental amount of space, which we both need.

[623] In fact, my best friend moved in with me in lockdown for a month and, yeah, you start to piss me off.

[624] Well, you brew so fucking loud, do you know what I mean?

[625] Like, clean up after yourself.

[626] How lowly do you chew?

[627] We had an argument.

[628] I remember.

[629] We argued over something stupid, like a video game or something.

[630] Um, so I, going to conclude the point, I know for me that space and the lack of being on top of each other is something that would be a fundamental part of the relationship I have.

[631] I'm willing to commit because I actually can't see a world where I would allow them not to or that I'd be happy with them not.

[632] Even the word allow, it's like permission, right?

[633] It's like such a asshole thing to say.

[634] But I can't see a world where I would be okay with them not committing to me. So I, I'm going to have to concede that.

[635] I think I'll figure that out.

[636] Hopefully if we can keep the sex, good.

[637] So space and commitment, I hate the idea of marriage.

[638] I don't think religion or the law should have any involvement on the topic of love.

[639] I think they'd have a terrible track record.

[640] Religion with homosexuality and the history it has on love and the law.

[641] I don't see why a court would have anything to do with how I feel about someone.

[642] So I hate the idea of marriage.

[643] Some kind of commitment that offers me space with the right person where we both understand that at some point we might grow out of each other.

[644] and when we do that's fine and I'm going to conclude with one point which you actually said in the last podcast which is when I asked you about monogamy and about committing to someone for life you said to me don't view it like that just ask yourself the question every single day yeah today am I happy to spend today this day with this person in this relationship if the answer is yes fine yeah if the answer is known then there's something that needs to be addressed yeah thanks for sharing that don't use it I've actually got a photographic memory where it doesn't have word forward what I know for for me is there's definite similarities in that realistically I can't see myself being a non -monogamous relationship and if I was with someone that would be the person that I would be with in the past though in our last podcast when you asked me about the definition of love, that hasn't changed in that I believe that love is fostering that emotional and spiritual growth of someone else.

[645] But what has changed is what I've realized.

[646] In order to distinguish though between a partner that you're with and a partner that you have connection and chemistry and intimacy with, there has to be that physical intimacy.

[647] which is maintained and which is, and will wax and wane, but which can still be a light, because whenever it dies, it irrevocably shakes the foundation of the relationship.

[648] And I don't think I put enough importance on that.

[649] I almost had like a Zen -like view of marriage as opposed to appreciating.

[650] And it was, it was funny, it was a, um, someone I was speaking to, and they were saying, from a male perspective, females want the new man during the day to be kind, sensitive, loving, and they want a Neanderthal...

[651] And tie them up, handcuff them, and gag them at night.

[652] But do you know what?

[653] It got me thinking, because what if the same ingredients that lead to a long -lasting, loving relationship or monogamous marriage, stability, dependability, relatability, safety, protection, caregiving.

[654] What if these are the same ingredients that kill desire?

[655] Because what I think is true is that and I should just speak for myself, what I potentially find attractive in the bedroom might be the things that I actually stand against during the day.

[656] There might be power and there might be dominance.

[657] And that doesn't match up with how I see myself during the day.

[658] And so then you reach this conflict.

[659] And I think what I began to do was I began to become the new man and only the new man. And actually what I want to do more often is to tap more into both sides.

[660] I mean, far too honest.

[661] No, no, there's no such thing as far too honest.

[662] We talked about the importance of living the truth.

[663] That's what I'm trying to lean into.

[664] 100%.

[665] And there's a. this great philosopher called usher who says a lady in the streets and a freak in the bed and it's like and i heard that lyric maybe eight years ago and i literally say it to my friends all the time when i'm talking about the type of partner that i want and it's matching up exactly what you said the civility and the class with the lack of class and the freakishness and the and and it's it's hard to find and maintain the balance, I found.

[666] Yeah.

[667] And because sex can be really a journey of somewhere that you go.

[668] And so then there has to be that trust and that safety there.

[669] And at times it might be about letting go over responsibility and surrendering.

[670] It might be about taking control and being dominant.

[671] But it's understanding what it means to you and at what times they should unfold.

[672] and be allowed to live so that your imagination can live because when it doesn't and then it just becomes an act or something that you should do or a way of having children then we begin to feel lost and that's what's happened with a lot of clients seen and so going back to how I would want to imagine the situation is yes it would be a monogamous relationship with another with a woman and And I would want to try and stay true to who I am and still keep that whole version of me. And that's what I've learned, keeping, and I've gone back to that.

[673] The wonderful thing is, would I, you know, you ask me, do I regret it?

[674] The reason also why I don't regret it because I'm not holding on to it is because the changes have happened.

[675] And I've trusted that it was meant to be.

[676] And it was meant to unfold that way.

[677] And I'm much more in tune with who I am now.

[678] So I finally got my motorbike license and I bought my triumph Bonnie yesterday.

[679] Amazing.

[680] Yeah.

[681] And I'm doing the things which, and I realize because I'm drawn to more of a sense of risk and danger and actual activities where I have to be consumed within that moment and be present.

[682] And I'm getting back in touch with who I am and how I want to live my life and what I want to stand for.

[683] And it's on me to maintain that with the next person I'm with.

[684] And the other thing I learned was the space, because where we went wrong is whenever we didn't have the space.

[685] And actually I realized, I really enjoy living alone.

[686] I love that freedom.

[687] My other relationships are very important to me with my brother and my best friends.

[688] And so I don't know yet what that will look like, but it will definitely involve more space.

[689] and also that sense of adventure and spontaneity because that's what I enjoy.

[690] I want to travel.

[691] I want to see different countries and I can set my life up where I'm doing that potentially with another person or still pursuing my passions and that is a safe relationship where that person knows that I love them and I'm there for them but I won't always be but then kids comes in the same room bucks up this whole fantasy Do you know what I mean?

[692] Because then...

[693] We'll deal with that in podcast three.

[694] But that's the bit where I'm like, okay, it's all wonderful and perfect.

[695] I was just thinking then my last three relationships, they've all lived in another country.

[696] And it's probably the reason why it works is because I can walk around here my boxer shorts all day, just like drinking my heel, you know, eating my pot needle or whatever.

[697] And being myself.

[698] And then we come together when they come there or I go there.

[699] Or we feel wonderful, love it.

[700] Great.

[701] And then I go back and have my, you know, my bachelor lifestyle you know um but yeah like i i think um kids is a is a really a topic which we would be like intellectually dishonest if we didn't it didn't yeah address because there's there'll be people listening to this that think okay well that's well well and good but when you become a father or a mother you have to be there for your kids yes and there's not a lot of science that says it's not good to be there for your kids right so yes and in the same way that we can start to, though, make sure that we clarify between what the science says and then what the script is.

[702] Because absolutely, we know that children will have better emotional outcomes and even physical development and situational success whenever they are brought up with a sensitive caregiver, someone who is responsive to their needs.

[703] who hears them, can hold them, give them safety, but also permission to be able to travel and come back.

[704] And who's invested in that child?

[705] But I'm not aware of studies that say that the parents have to be living in the same home in the one house 12 months of the year and their lives to be set up in a certain way.

[706] And I don't know what the answer is yet, and I'm not at that stage yet, but I would be curious whenever I am at that stage to begin exploring.

[707] And it might not be as radical as it's envisioned at a certain point in time, but there might be enough space or enough still spontaneity or adventure or playfulness, even on an internal level or in the way that you set your life up, where both partners have that space and still are able to maintain that passion.

[708] Isn't it crazy how much of life's misery and failure, and unhappiness stems from either trying to conform to the conventional way or the script, as you say, or trying to fit into or even sometimes answer an invalid question.

[709] We talked a little bit about this on the last podcast where I said, you know, I think so many people live their lives trying to answer invalid questions, like what number is orange is what I said last time.

[710] And in the same way, you got, you know, the question, are you in love, presumes, a yes, just by asking it, I'm forcing you to say yes or no. I'm also presuming that we've agreed upon the definition of in love, which again is just a fucking maze.

[711] Because no one's ever told me what that is.

[712] No, you're not born and they go, okay, God goes, by the way, if you ever feel this, that's love love, okay?

[713] And you go, okay, got you.

[714] Right?

[715] Because I, you know, the word is so loosely, I love peanut butter.

[716] I love my dog.

[717] I love my girlfriend.

[718] I love my wife.

[719] I love my mom.

[720] And it's like, so what is it different type?

[721] It's such a fucking confusing, complex nuance thing, love.

[722] And we're forcing it into this yes or no. And people will like, they'll ruin good things because they, they, they feel pressured or they're unsure if this is it, you know?

[723] And I just, I just wanted to kind of leave that point there in a sense of like, the idea of like, you know, so I know so many people listening to this will, will be unknowingly programmed by convention.

[724] And it's like the first principle thinking and the ability to question why you're doing what you're doing.

[725] and then I guess lastly to have the fearlessness or the courage to potentially interrogate and then reject it that can literally save you in every facet it saved me like go to university get a job do this and I I stopped going to school because I thought it was a lot of shit dropped out of university after one lecture started a business and I am as I said on this podcast before I'm the happiest person I know I've reached a level of success at ridiculously young age I managed to like write us, write a new story, write a new script for how life can be lived.

[726] And people admire me and listen to this podcast, basically only because, not because I'm smarter than anyone else or anything else.

[727] It's fundamentally, if you go back to where it started, was because I, for some reason, was willing to question the script and then had the, as they call it, fearlessness.

[728] For me, it wasn't, for me, the biggest fear was fucking following the script, clearly, right?

[729] But had the perceived fearlessness to say, well, this doesn't make.

[730] sense.

[731] How does that resonate with you?

[732] Two things come to mind.

[733] One is that, like you said before, the solution in my mind will be bespoke because we're trying to take a one -size -fits -all solution, a panacea, and apply it to everyone.

[734] And we're all unique.

[735] And it's important, I think, for each to begin to become aware of the emotional resistance we have to considering possibilities, outside of the conventional nuclear family unit and just begin to think about what that might mean and where we might be able to see change.

[736] And the second part is to ask yourselves, what do I think I have to have in order to be happy?

[737] So in relationships, often people think marriage, children.

[738] In business, it could be X revenue, Y, set up.

[739] Z. Lifestyle.

[740] And then we can ask, what will that give me?

[741] Why will it make me happy?

[742] Because below will be the emotional need.

[743] So it could be, in relationship, this could be because I want affection, physical intimacy, a sense of belonging, stability.

[744] For something else, it could be status to be accepted by others, not to be judged.

[745] But isn't just a question.

[746] Yeah.

[747] isn't the actual truth based on that so on that point of marriage people thinking that they think marriage will make them happy they've never experienced marriage before right so where have they got that idea from it's i think the actual the fundamental truth is because they told me it would make me happy yeah we've been sold that story but what do people really want what are they wanting out the marriage if you go deeper there'll be an emotional need that they're trying to meet through the marriage that they think the marriage will provide the solution to you But like you're saying, it doesn't.

[748] Well, it can, but it might not.

[749] And so what people might actually want is emotional connection or companionship.

[750] You know, if you said, describe the marriage, the ideal marriage to me. They might say, well, we're happy and we're there for each other.

[751] And I have a confidant or a best friend or I have a lover.

[752] It's understanding those different parts.

[753] When we've broken that down and understand what we're actually yearning for or searching for, we can then ask, can I meet those needs in a slightly different way that doesn't necessarily prescribe to the conventional model?

[754] And that's first principle thinking, in essence, which is going back to like the fundamental.

[755] Yeah.

[756] Yeah, which is how, yeah.

[757] Yeah.

[758] And which is what I said before is what I love about your mind because you take it back to your first principles.

[759] And then that's whenever you potentially become, you know, I do things.

[760] Yeah.

[761] Yeah.

[762] Yeah.

[763] that's it's such a i i wish the school taught kids how to think in that way because the first principles just going back to the university point for me where i want to be a i want to start a business and be a millionaire that's what my stupid ass brain was thinking at that point right so this piece of paper who am i going to show that to if i'm self -employed yeah it's good point i don't want you to show it to myself everyone else um everyone else around me is sleeping on their desk and hung over and i'm going to have the same stance that they all have, but that's actually probably going to work against me. And I swear to God, this isn't high, I'll tell you if it was hindsight bullshit.

[764] I was thinking that.

[765] I've got this vivid memory of my first day at university and my last of looking over and this girl bits up being sat on my right and she was drunk and sleeping on the desk.

[766] And I didn't get into a good university because I got expelled from school so I didn't really take my exam seriously either, again, because of the same thinking.

[767] But I remember thinking, I'm going to go, I'm going to get the same trophy as her.

[768] How is that going to help me?

[769] if we both show up and I was just thinking and then you've got it was boring as fuck like I've been running businesses since I was 14 day one they were like make a poster I swear to God the lesson my last lesson in my first at university was make a poster and I thought this isn't gonna in terms of the information part that's not going to give me the information and it was that and I walked out of there I walked into the business office and I spoke to the head of business at the university and I said I'm going to defer for it for a little while she said cool fill out this piece of paper and you can defer I never even filled it out and never went back.

[770] Turns out I actually hadn't properly registered for university either like as I was meant to so I didn't really have to defer to be honest and that was it and you know I want to move on because you spent a long time talking about this topic you said earlier on that you spent lockdown in California which is you know I'm jealous you don't know and it cuts both ways you don't know what's going to happen in the next moment we have a projection of the way that we think our lives will unfold, and often we become tied to it and bound to it, and any deviation we can see as a failure of some sorts.

[771] But actually, sometimes life has other plans for us.

[772] And when we don't know what's going to happen, I think it keeps that freshness.

[773] You keep fresh eyes and you stay grateful for what you do have while you have it.

[774] On the other hand, we don't know what's going to happen, and it could all be taken away from us at any point.

[775] And I've got a good friend of mine and his father just had a stroke a couple of days ago.

[776] And they now know the outcome is he won't be around.

[777] Ten days goes walking in South Ken and five minutes after I passed and was coming back, there was barriers put up and a refuse collector had been walking out and a bus had knocked him down and in an instant his life was over.

[778] And I just imagined, and I could be completely wrong, but I imagined, gosh, he might have a family, he might say goodbye to his wife and the kids in the morning, and he went off to work, and he had no idea.

[779] And she had no idea.

[780] And the things that were really, that might have been niggling or causing arguments don't matter now.

[781] Like, none of that matters now.

[782] And I didn't see what was going to happen coming.

[783] And I lost it on one level.

[784] I lost a lot.

[785] And it makes me really appreciate what I had, but then on another level, that wasn't the end to the story.

[786] And then it was as if life said, you're on this path and I'm going to shunt you onto a new trajectory.

[787] And that's the path you're meant to be on.

[788] This is where you're meant to be going.

[789] And I believe that it's a part of my path and it was meant to unfold this way.

[790] The universe is unfolding as it should.

[791] And it's a lesson for me to continually trust.

[792] And that's why that voice came up in the very beginning in my heart, thing all is well.

[793] Because I know on a deep level that all is well, it's just about trusting, sometimes letting go of our ideas and living in this moment.

[794] I can think of a better ending.

[795] Listen, I don't even, you know, thank you so much for so many reasons, because what you've done today, on one hand, will probably be selfish, selfish as you move forward and realize that the release of your truth and talking about it and processing it with people is always liberating.

[796] But on the other hand, it's incredibly selfless because there are so many people that are going to have less pain, deal with their pain better, and understand themselves and hopefully be a little bit more self -aware because you had the guts and the, you know, the humility and lack of ego to share what is an incredibly emotional, touching personal experience.

[797] And so thank you so much.

[798] It's It's helped to me, you know, and I have no doubt that the hundreds of thousands of people that listen to this, it's going to help them in the same way.

[799] If people want to find you and they want to talk to you about this, and I'm sure there will be a lot of them, you know, the podcast was big back then.

[800] It's much bigger now, right?

[801] How do they find you?

[802] What's the best way to reach you?

[803] It's on Instagram.

[804] This is at dr. underscore A -R -I -A or my website, which is DR -a -a -a -a -a -com.

[805] And what kind of services do you offer people that are going through, you know, various predicaments?

[806] So I do one -to -one coaching.

[807] So right now everything's done digitally, but essentially it's identifying what aspect of your life right now it's critical for you to resolve and then helping you with the psychology and the mindset to be able to work through that or work with that.

[808] So it could be emotional resilience, it could be sustainable weight loss, it could be relationships, it could be taking your business to the next level in terms of how you view yourself as an entrepreneur.

[809] It might be fears, loss of intimacy, imposter syndrome, whatever issues actually there for you, I'll check if it's something that we can approach from a mindset point of view and that's where my expertise is.

[810] and then help you on your journey as you then have a more empowered mindset so that you're developing that robust sense of self and you're able to change and adapt and be fluid in your journey and keep on growing, essentially.

[811] We have such good conversations even off the podcast.

[812] We met up, I think, last week or the week before and had just an open conversation about a bunch of things in life.

[813] So I actually wanted to ask you.

[814] I've never asked a guest this before, but is there anything that we've missed in terms of the topics that you think are curious to the relationship we have or pertinent to the relationship we have or any sort of learnings that you've garnered from our conversations that you think we should be sharing with people because I feel some, I feel those conversations are so rich that I, you know, we talked about so much last time and even in our private conversations.

[815] I just wonder if there's anything else, any sort of key topics that you I'm sure there will be like I don't think we've exhausted our conversation we'll be back for a third episode listen thank you so much for the time I appreciate it I yeah I appreciate it so so much more than I you know people they give up so much time and they fly to come and do the podcast but um the what you've given today I don't think you'll realize how selfless that act was because of the value it will give to people and this is exactly why I do this podcast um to hear these kinds of things and to to hopefully make myself better and the listener's better for hearing it.

[816] So thank you a million, million times over.

[817] Thanks, Steve.

[818] Thank you.