Peter Crouch Opens Up About His Dark Times & Crying Himself To Sleep

[0] I've seen things that I'd never seen before.

[1] You know, the proudest moment of my life has been taken away because of that.

[2] I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy.

[3] But on the pitch, I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed.

[4] The top -level players that I've played with, Lampard, John Turrey, Stephen Gerard, I think, look like they don't enjoy it.

[5] They are constantly battling for the next thing.

[6] Were they intense?

[7] So intense, yeah.

[8] And, you know, a big reason why I'm the person I am.

[9] I play for England in an era where it felt like this thing, There was a huge pressure.

[10] You know, we had an opportunity to win World Cups.

[11] And because we didn't, it was heaped on players.

[12] I've got my mum, my dad and friends in the crowd.

[13] And then you come on and get booed by 70 ,000.

[14] It's hard to come back from that.

[15] My mum was crying.

[16] My dad had to have a fight.

[17] I was thinking about giving up football.

[18] I think I wasn't seen as what an England strike I should look like.

[19] I was so scared.

[20] I was just wanted to hide away.

[21] In that phase, you were turning to drink more than you should have been.

[22] But I needed to at that time.

[23] You're not seen as people.

[24] It's like you're well paid, so you have to endure this abuse.

[25] You know, you've put yourself in a position to be shot at.

[26] But like what I've seen with certainly Harry McGuire, the criticism goes beyond criticism.

[27] It's gone too far.

[28] I'm so proud to represent my country.

[29] Where do I need to start in your story to really understand you?

[30] What's the most pertinent, relevant things that someone listening to this needs to know about you to understand you?

[31] what right the start i suppose i think it's everything comes from um your childhood right um i am who i am and shaped by my parents and my friends uh and i suppose people see me now obviously like i had a determination to be a footballer uh huge determination to be a footballer uh and then people see me now as a footballer who has a laugh, I suppose, and that is my persona.

[32] But that stems from my childhood, really, and being a little bit different, looking a little bit different, and having maybe a defence mechanism.

[33] And that humour, probably, that you see, which is me now, yeah, it was a little bit of a defence mechanism when someone came at me, I'd always be funnier than they would be and then that stops whoever's saying it in their tracks you know and then that being so tall at such a young age was was difficult at times but that kind of defects mechanism was I laugh at myself before you can laugh at me and that would that stood me in good stead and and even now that's you know that's the way I get through things when was the when was the first time that you that you realized that you were different because like I remember coming to the UK from Botswana in Africa, and I was the only black kid in a white school.

[34] And there's like, there's some day, I think I remember specifically a comment that a kid made some in the playground, which really put into, like, perspective that I was actually different to them.

[35] It was something about my hair.

[36] I had like a little, little, like, kind of Jackson 5 Afro going on that I combed out.

[37] And from that day onwards, it was, I kind of noticed that I was different.

[38] Can you recall a time where you've, you realize that you being taller was made you different?

[39] Yeah, well, I think it's only, It's only people with experience, like older people that notice anything like that, isn't it really?

[40] I think, like, as kids, we just grow up.

[41] Everyone's the same, aren't they?

[42] And then it's older kids.

[43] So, like, when I was, you know, I was always the tallest in my class, but my mom and dad never made a big deal of it to me. I was always taller than everyone else.

[44] And then when we started to play football and then when I started to be good at football, you would hear things on the sideline out, yeah, but he's a couple of years older.

[45] Or, yeah, he's good, but he's too old.

[46] because you're only judged by your height at that age.

[47] So I'd hear things from the parents.

[48] And then, you know, I'd hear, like, little remarks, like people laughing, little japes and jibing.

[49] And, yeah, because, like, people saying, oh, you're skinny or your lanky is seen as...

[50] It's sort of like you're allowed to say it in some ways.

[51] Do you know what I mean?

[52] Like, it's a describing word.

[53] But, like, that's how it was for me. But I love it.

[54] It feels to me like it's part of me. now.

[55] I've always been tall and everyone else.

[56] It wasn't as if I just shot up and was different.

[57] I was just always ahead above everyone else.

[58] And that is a part of me now, which I love.

[59] Richard Osmond, who came on the podcast, was the first person who kind of stunned me into silence, because I have to be completely honest.

[60] I didn't realize that heightism, abusing people for being tall was such a sort of consequential thing for those people.

[61] I was one of the people who didn't realize that someone who's lived their height being very, very tall, will be told about it everywhere they go every second and how that can impact someone and how they feel.

[62] Honestly, when I remember doing that podcast, I remember sitting there and go, fucking out, of course, of course.

[63] It'd be like anything else with me. If I had the third arm, and everyone said it everywhere I'd go, it would make me subconscious about it.

[64] Exactly right, yeah.

[65] And, you know, it's because there's bigger problems everywhere, you know, there's bigger problems.

[66] But my problem, my problem, or, you know, it was my thing that was different was my height, you know, like I recently, you know, I did a joke of, like, all the questions that I was permanently asked.

[67] I had a series of cards in my inside pocket to answer every single question that everyone, the people I knew were going to ask me. So it was, what's the weather like up there?

[68] Do you play basketball?

[69] how to all of you do you sleep in a grow bag is the weather different up there right five questions but I had all the answers in my inside pocket so before they even open their mouth I could give them a card and it was just something funny that changed the subject but it's amazing how many times I think it's less so now because people know who I am and know what I'm about but before people I became well known those questions were just constant What impact does that have?

[70] We joke about it as, you know, now, but what impact does that have on a young man?

[71] Well, on an impressionable young teenager, it had a big impact.

[72] Me now, you know, it's Waterford Duck's back, you know, it doesn't matter to me. But yeah, as a young lad, it was a little bit different.

[73] I remember my dad getting, you know, really angry about it.

[74] Because as a teenager, you're going through things that are a little bit, you know, you're always, you're not comfortable within your own skin are you as a young as a young lad um so i was the same as everyone else but i found it difficult at times really difficult and especially football terraces like as i got older and i was playing professionally um and then i started playing in the first team and all of a sudden it was like you know dealing with there was one thing dealing with the odd person in the in the streets saying oh aren't you tall and another thing dealing with sort of 30 ,000 people screaming, like, obscenities at you, you know, taking the piss out of the way you look, laughing at you, that was difficult.

[75] When you say difficult, what do you mean?

[76] In a practical, because I read up like 14 and 15 years old, you're crying yourself to sleep sometimes because of this and having conversations with your dad about it.

[77] Yeah, yeah, I think there was times where I thought to myself, is it worth it?

[78] Is it worth going through this?

[79] and why am I put myself through this?

[80] It's all I've ever loved.

[81] It's all I've ever wanted to do.

[82] But if people were going to laugh out of me and take the piss out of me, what is the point, you know?

[83] Do I want it that much?

[84] I was lucky I had a good support network around me, you know, I had good people around me, my dad was great with me, and he was harsh with me at times as well, but he was also really, really good at pulling me back up and sort of giving myself more confidence and listen, I don't look like your average footballer, and I've known that since I was 10, 11 years old.

[85] You know, when I watch football on the TV, I don't see anyone that represented me, really.

[86] Like, you know, Tor Andre Flo was potentially one, had good technique.

[87] There was a couple of players, but not many.

[88] So I thought to myself, maybe I'm just not, I'm not right.

[89] Maybe I don't look right.

[90] I don't, I shouldn't be a player.

[91] You know, I had all these things going on in your mind, But ultimately, if, you know, I had the determination and I had the ability to, and I suppose the thick skin, which you have to have, to go past it.

[92] You said there that there was thoughts in your head of maybe I should, maybe I should quit, maybe I should go do something else.

[93] Was, were those like real considerations you had at some point?

[94] Yeah, oh, without doubt.

[95] They were, that was, I'm just, I just to think to myself, is it worth it?

[96] Like, why, I always remember the game, it was West Brom away.

[97] came on and I missed the chance and nobody knew who I was.

[98] I was just a kid, you know, I was probably the same height as I am now and probably about, I was probably about nine stone, nine half stone.

[99] I was, you know, much skinnier than I am now, believe it or not.

[100] And I'm trying to be a Premier League player, you know, it's just, people just thought it was absolutely ridiculous.

[101] And at times I thought it myself, I thought, what, I know I've got ability, but I'm looking at these big, strong, you know, developed men.

[102] Like, I can't compete with this.

[103] And I always remember coming on, people actually laughing at me. And then there was another game away at Jillingham where I just got absolutely abused to the point where, you know, people were shouting, freak, and does the circus know you're here?

[104] Like, these are the things that were people saying.

[105] And my dad was in the crowd.

[106] I always remember it.

[107] I was walking out at half time of the game.

[108] And my dad was rolling down the aisle in the Jillingham end, having a fight with someone, I thought, oh my God, this is not, this is my first season in professional football.

[109] I'm feeling my dad's having a fight.

[110] I'm getting absolutely abused.

[111] My mum's crying.

[112] You know, what am I doing?

[113] Why, why am I putting myself through this?

[114] Of course, I love football and that's, you know, what I want to be, but is it worth all this?

[115] How do you feel about those people that are shouting, like, freak at you when you come on the pitch and upset in your family?

[116] How do you, like, think about them and that kind of culture now?

[117] Like, do you know what?

[118] Like, it'd be easy for me to say here, sit here and go.

[119] go, oh, you know, the brain dead, this, the that, that.

[120] But growing up in a football culture, it's like I've been there myself on a football terrorist where you, you know, and you hear things.

[121] My dad used to cover my ears and stuff.

[122] I just go to Chelsea as a kid.

[123] And I don't know.

[124] It's like almost normal.

[125] And I know it's wrong.

[126] And obviously there's a line, you know what I mean?

[127] Obviously, we've seen it recently, you know, with racism.

[128] And, you know, there's certain things that go well over the line.

[129] But, you know, being tall wasn't considered, you know, over the line.

[130] So it was something that I just decided was that was the way football is.

[131] You know, can we change that?

[132] Can I change that?

[133] I don't think so.

[134] So I just got on with it.

[135] And how do I think about them now?

[136] I think, yeah, it was reckless.

[137] I think I sat down on a Gilligan fan that was abusing me that day.

[138] And I said, do you know what?

[139] You really like, my mum was crying.

[140] My dad had to have a fight.

[141] I was thinking about giving up football.

[142] I think you'd, I think he'd.

[143] you'd say, oh God, I'm sorry.

[144] I think you would.

[145] But I don't think in that moment, he saw us as people.

[146] It's like you're a footballer on the pitch and you're not seen as, it's like such tribalism that you're just going to endure, you have to endure it for, you know, you're well paid so you have to endure this kind of level of abuse.

[147] And I think things are changing.

[148] I'd like to think they are.

[149] We're trying to help that.

[150] But certainly in those days, it was a case of get on with it.

[151] Did that put a chip on your shoulder?

[152] You know when you hear those things and you're running onto the pitch and you hear people abusing you or whatever else or you're aware of that narrative in your head?

[153] When you come on, do you think to yourself, I'm going to fucking show these people?

[154] I'm going to...

[155] Does it give you, did it give you doubt or did it give you an extra bit of confidence?

[156] It's a little bit of both, I think.

[157] Like, when I was, like, I didn't know whether I was going to play for England or I was going to be a non -league player and either of them would have been fine.

[158] Like, I wasn't on the map to go and play for England.

[159] You know, I wasn't Stephen Gerard.

[160] I wasn't Michael Owen.

[161] I wasn't Wayne Rooney.

[162] You know, I had a different path.

[163] I wasn't ready for the Premier League till I was 22, 23, probably.

[164] You know, so I didn't know where my career was going to go.

[165] So, yeah, there were times where I doubted myself.

[166] But then I think, you know, I think I scored my first goal.

[167] And things just changed.

[168] And I just, it was the most important moment of my life.

[169] And it was against Dillingham again, believe.

[170] or not.

[171] Funny how it comes around.

[172] But I, yeah, I chest the ball down and I volleyed this ball and I was at QPR.

[173] And I knew then that I'd have a career in football.

[174] Like, I didn't know I'd play for Liverpool.

[175] I didn't know I'd play for England, but I didn't know what I'd go on to achieve.

[176] But I knew then I'd have a career in football.

[177] And that was where my confidence grew and then I thought, no, no, no, I can do this.

[178] Your dad had he was quite tough at times from what I read.

[179] Yeah, yeah, yeah, like really tough, yeah.

[180] What does that mean in real terms?

[181] Yeah, I mean, I think at times he probably went a little bit too far.

[182] But at times, like, I wouldn't be sat here having played for England or achieving the things that I've done, achieving my dreams, without him being hard on me. Like, I wouldn't, would I go maybe to the lengths at times that he did?

[183] Maybe not, but...

[184] What lengths?

[185] Well, just certain things.

[186] Like, I think the harshest one was when he obviously left me at...

[187] I was at the ball court in Tottenham, and I jumped out of a tackle.

[188] And his thing was, look, I came from a nice background, and a lot of the kids were playing football to survive.

[189] You know, so I had to toughen up.

[190] And that's the truth.

[191] like was I going to go into a tackle like my life depended on it like the kids from from the estate around Edmonton or East London and probably not at that time so you know when I got up to after the after training he'd like my dad he'd let you've gone yeah yeah yeah so he left me and I had to get home and bearing in mind I grew up in Ealing getting home from why Alain was an overground Seven Sisters to Oxford Circus Toiling Broadway and then walk home from there I was probably about I was probably 13 and 14 but I hadn't been on a tube before I had but not on my own so it was a tough lesson did he tell you he was going no I went up there and he was gone and did you not think I'll give him a call to where he's Oh, I didn't have a mobile.

[192] Oh, of course.

[193] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[194] It was different times.

[195] And when did you find out it was because you weren't tackling people?

[196] Well, I thought it might be.

[197] Oh, you know?

[198] It wasn't no, I didn't tackle.

[199] I think I remember jumping out of one particular tackle.

[200] I thought my dad's going to kill me for that.

[201] Do you know what, though?

[202] I never jumped out of a tackle again.

[203] And, you know, like I say, it is a harsh lesson.

[204] But I'm not going to sit here and say it wasn't the right lesson.

[205] I think it might have been a tad harsh.

[206] Would I do that to my son?

[207] I'm not sure.

[208] I don't, probably not.

[209] But I think potentially I'm too easy on my kids a bit.

[210] It's a tough lesson to learn.

[211] But I think if you want to be a top elite footballer, you need to want it as much as the next person.

[212] And I did want it, but I, I hadn't had to fight as much as these kids, you know.

[213] And don't get me wrong, these kids, these kids are, they're my friends now, you know.

[214] Like I have some good, some good lads that came from tough upbringings that went on to be really good players.

[215] You know, Ledley King, I remember, like Ledley King, Stephen Mills, James Carter, these boys that I met in the ball court, you know, and Nikki Hunt, they were tough lads, you know, from, you know, Beau in East London, you know, in a state where Ashley Cole grew up, Lily King grew up and I ended up playing in the ball court where they grew up you know and that's a different kind of environment to where I was playing you know but I think when you can hold your own in there and you know you can go you can rough it up you can fly into tackles I basically changed my whole personality to be when I played football you know like I can sit in now and I'd like to say that I'm a nice guy I think that I'm a nice guy but on the pitch I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed and that was just one lesson.

[216] When you got home from that little football game where you didn't put the tackle in or jumped out of the tackle, did your dad have a conversation with you about it?

[217] About why he left?

[218] Yeah.

[219] So he told you why at the end he said.

[220] Yeah.

[221] Listen, there's a few things that like should remain private between me and my dad but let's just say I was told in non -certain terms to not jump out of the tackle again.

[222] Okay.

[223] Okay.

[224] Good.

[225] And your mum, what was your broader influence on you?

[226] My mum.

[227] Yeah, your mum.

[228] Was she like?

[229] She was very much like me. Yeah, I think most of my traits probably come from my mum.

[230] You know, obviously the love of football came from my dad and stuff and, you know, he was very good with me. But my mum was very good with me and, you know, she was, I thank her every day about, you know, she'd take him to, matches i remember seeing her just you know she was the only mom on the side with the bolly when it was lashing down and um she was incredible taking me to places she was like my shoulder to cry on she was the person that i would confide in um they're both both very very good and you know a big reason why i'm the person i am those players from the estate that you you played amongst one of the things i read about um in your book was how you could see how attitude played such an important role in who would make it.

[231] Because getting from like the estate to, you know, sort of semi -pro level and then getting to the Premier League is a long fucking journey.

[232] And there's only a few seats at that top table.

[233] So when you think about like why, including yourself, why in terms of mindset and attitude, some of your colleagues and some of your peers made it and didn't make it, what's your answer to that?

[234] Yeah, it's funny, like everyone, every footballer that's played for England or played, I've played within the Premier League, they've all got a story, all of them.

[235] I've got every single one will tell you a story about the player that was better than them that no one knows.

[236] There's so many of them out there and it's sad.

[237] But for whatever reason, injury, you know, there's lots of temptation as a young football, especially when you're that good.

[238] You know, if you're earning money, you don't know how to handle that money, friends.

[239] parties, you know, distractions of all different kinds, you know, attitude, will, you know, determination, dedication.

[240] There's so many factors alongside ability, luck.

[241] There's so many factors.

[242] But I sometimes think we don't, you know, a lot of the time we look at the negative side of football, but I think sometimes when you see the kids that have come from absolutely, I'm talking absolutely nothing some of these kids who are now playing for England or you know and they make mistakes they make mistakes in the public eye they make mistakes high profile mistakes and everyone goes ah it's footballers you know that's what that you know that's what they're like if you'd have seen what they've come from to playing in a champions league final like I think that's a success story you know I think sometimes we should celebrate that fact not not not kind of for making those mistakes that they've made.

[243] And yeah, of course, it depends what kind of, if it's, you know, too, too big a mistake.

[244] Obviously, you can't condone some things, but some of these players who have come basically with no mum and dad, you know, someone's picked them up with one particular player, you know, not had any boots.

[245] I've been thrown on a football pitch and has ended up playing in the Champions League final.

[246] But yeah, it's made the mistakes along the way.

[247] But I think sometimes we should consider that a success.

[248] Yeah, we don't really have a lot of empathy, do we, when it comes to it?

[249] Because it's because it's a highly paid profession, you know, and sometimes, you know, there's a stigma on, you know, why are these players getting paid so well?

[250] And I get that, you know, there's a lot of money in football and, you know, could it be spent elsewhere on people in the NHS or, you know, people who are doing probably much more harder jobs than a footballer, but it is what it is.

[251] you can't change it, but I do think, yeah, there is that stigma associated to footballers.

[252] I sat with Tim Grover, who was the guy that trained Michael Jordan and Kobe, and he also trained some Premier League football players now, gives them like coaching advice.

[253] And one of the things he told me was how he's seen the pressure of being a high -level Premier League football player completely destroy some players.

[254] And it's something that it was the first time I'd kind of heard that.

[255] Because as a fan, as I've always been, you know, we're all tweeting, we're all having our say all commenting, we're all at the game shouting and our little mob mentality, whatever.

[256] But then we don't really think that the all of that pressure, especially on like, as you say, a kid that's come from the estate who's 18 and isn't like, doesn't have the tools to deal with that pressure, how they can be going home, how it can severely impact their performance and how it can kind of like just cause them to collapse a little bit.

[257] I've got to be honest, I've seen a similar thing in my view with like the mob.

[258] attacking like someone like Harry Maguire.

[259] Rashford had it a lot last year as well.

[260] But what's your take on all of that?

[261] And have you seen that yourself in the dressing room?

[262] Yeah, no, I've seen it.

[263] I played in, I played for England in the era where it was, it felt like there was a huge pressure.

[264] There was, it was the golden generation.

[265] You know, the players were the best we've ever had since 66.

[266] You know, we had an opportunity to win World Cups.

[267] And, you know, because we didn't, it was, you know, it felt like it was heaped on certain players and that kind of pressure.

[268] But when you're talking about Rashford and McGuire, like I think we were all entitled to criticise players.

[269] Like we put ourselves in that position, but like what I've seen with certainly Harry McGuire, I feel like it goes, it's gone really too far.

[270] I think, you know, it's harsh.

[271] It's, you know, I'm just thinking of his family, you know, because I've been in that position.

[272] I've been booed for England.

[273] I remember playing.

[274] at Old Trafford in the game and coming on and it's the proudest moment you'll ever have in your life and your home fans are booing you I've been in that situation and it feels like Harry McGuire's going through what seems to be a prolonged period of this and yeah regardless of form I think some of the social media stuff I see you know ridiculing I think he's having a difficult time as a player but I think some of the criticism goes beyond criticism it becomes too harsh in my opinion.

[275] Having been in a situation where you've been booed by the fans of the club you're playing for, what does that do to you?

[276] What did it do to you when you came?

[277] Was it for England?

[278] Yeah, well, that's devastating.

[279] Yeah, I'm playing for England.

[280] Listen, you know, there might be an element of the fact that I was my Liverpool player, I'm at Old Trafford.

[281] You know, obviously a lot of many United fans.

[282] But it was during the course of when I, I wasn't scoring for Liverpool and I was having a real tough time anyway I had 18 games or I didn't score for Liverpool and the fact that it goes back to I felt like with England I had to be superhuman but goes back to the thing where because I looked different a bit I wasn't seen as what an England strike I should look like and I think that was genuinely a thing but I then you know I'm so proud to represent my country but I've got my sister my mum And my dad, all friends in the crowd, and everyone's excited.

[283] You know, they're all talking to me before the game about, you know, me potentially coming on and making an appearance and get the cap.

[284] And then you come on and get booed by 70 ,000.

[285] Of your own fans.

[286] Yeah.

[287] So what I'm saying is don't ever feel sorry for footballers.

[288] Don't.

[289] But, you know, don't have to.

[290] We expect that.

[291] But my family, like my mom, was in bits.

[292] You know, the proudest moment of my life has sort of, been taken away a bit because of that.

[293] But, you know, we put ourselves in the position.

[294] There's no, I'm not going to, I'm going to sit here and cry about it.

[295] Just, it's just disappointing for my family more than anything.

[296] What happens when the whistle blows the game ends on days like that?

[297] You go back and see your family.

[298] Is there a bit of an awkwardness to it?

[299] Bit of embarrassment.

[300] You know, because you want to be the one who comes down with the champagne.

[301] in your hand, you know, and everyone claps you in and your family give you a big hug, you know, and most of the lads did that, you know, they've got a shirt, they've got a cap, like, I'll come down to the players lounge after and I'm a bit sheepish, I'm like, sorry about that, mum.

[302] You know, it's like you're apologising for doing the thing that you've worked so hard to do your whole life.

[303] So that is, that's difficult dealing with the family side of it, because I know what I've done.

[304] I've put myself in a position to be shot at.

[305] I'm sure you feel the same, you know, doing this podcast, whatever you do that's, you know, you've put yourself in a position to be shot at, but your mum hasn't, you know, she doesn't need to hear that and it kills her, but it's funny, isn't it?

[306] When you put yourself in a position to be shot out, I was really like that phrase.

[307] And then, you know, you get shot at, your family try and stand in the way of the bullets to some degree.

[308] And it's like, no, no, no, please don't send me the articles.

[309] Please don't tell me your thoughts.

[310] what's on it and WhatsApp, I don't need to, like, persuade you out of this situation and, like, sort of counsel you on why these people are saying this about me. But how do you deal with that?

[311] How do you deal with, like, you know, do you just put up the guard and pretend it's not happening?

[312] It depends on the issue, but I mean, I'll probably get cancelled once every quarter for something I've said on this podcast, or whatever.

[313] Dragon Center sometimes, because of the way it's edited, it can make it seem like I said something I didn't say, whatever.

[314] So my friends know not to send me articles.

[315] Just assume I've seen it.

[316] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[317] I don't need my best mate going, have you seen this?

[318] This is something that happened like early on in my career and I was like, no, don't stop all that.

[319] Like, I'm not reading new, I don't watch match of the day if I haven't scored.

[320] Yeah, you know what I mean?

[321] That's the way I deal with it.

[322] He's like, you know, that doesn't exist.

[323] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[324] When I do something good, I might, I might listen to the praise.

[325] Be very selective in what you watch or listen to.

[326] But was there a moment in your career where you said, I'm not going to read the newspapers anymore, I'm not going to watch the telly, I'm just going to...

[327] Was that Liverpool phase where...

[328] Oh, God, yeah, that Liverpool phase was like radio silent.

[329] I was gone.

[330] I was...

[331] Relapse the thing, like everyone's...

[332] The problem with now, I could stop buying a newspaper.

[333] I can stop watching telly.

[334] I can do other things, you know?

[335] I can do...

[336] But nobody can live without their phone now.

[337] And this is the problem, like, for young footballers that I worry.

[338] I do...

[339] I don't worry about it, because no one can put their phone down from...

[340] No one can.

[341] so any football is the same especially a young player you know you pick up your phone for it right I've got what's on the diary I've got a text message then you did you find yourself on Instagram on Twitter on whatever you're on and you can't get away from it and no matter what the players tell you whatever they are I don't listen to it they do they do you can't get away from what it is now with the phones you can't everyone's got one and everyone's looking with me to get through that yeah I didn't I didn't watch I was getting ridiculed that time where I didn't score for Liverpool was such a hard time like for me I was just wanted to hide away in in a in a dark room until I scored basically so I don't know what I would do if I was hiding away in a dark room with a mobile phone you might as well just not you might as well go out and face it all because it's a lot harsher on the on the phone than it is when you see people in person If I was in your, so you signed for Liverpool and then you go 18 games without scoring, 18 appearances, right, without scoring.

[342] If I was in your household at that time, if I was behind the scenes in your camp, what would I actually, what would I have seen?

[343] Someone who's depressed, I suppose.

[344] I mean, outwardly not.

[345] I've never been that person to sort of, to wallow in it.

[346] You know, I'm always been the sort of, I suppose, a bubbly character.

[347] obviously the positive in everything.

[348] But at that time, like, it felt like I was getting ridiculed and it was really tough.

[349] I had to sort of fight my way through it.

[350] But what was so amazing was the Liverpool fans stuck with me. And that's something that I'll never forget because I swear to you, any club in the world, having just won the Champions League in one of the best finals we've ever seen in Istanbul in 2005, they signed me, right?

[351] I turn up and I don't score.

[352] 18 games, right?

[353] I don't think there's a club, a top club in the world that tolerates that as a fan base, apart from Liverpool fans.

[354] And they stuck by me and it was like a siege mentality.

[355] It was like everyone else is attacking him, but he's one of ours and we're with him.

[356] And it felt like every time I played, it felt like they were willingly to score.

[357] And when I eventually did, you can see the footage of it.

[358] The camera's shaking.

[359] and it's like we've won a European Cup final like people wanted me to score that much and I'm thankful to this day that they did stick with me because I managed to turn it round after that and it was a special moment at a special club I was reading in that phase you were turning to drink more than you should have been a little bit after games and stuff yeah because my dad to be fair to him would say to me I'd be like no I'm not going out And he'd like, you're going out.

[360] Like, he'd make me go out after games.

[361] And I'd be like, I don't want to, people laughing at me. But he'd drag me out.

[362] We'd have a few beers.

[363] Like, it wasn't as if I was drinking at home on my own.

[364] It wasn't like a dark kind of thing.

[365] It was, he was making, he was dragging me out, and he was making me have a few drinks.

[366] And then I realized actually, no one, because it's, I've built it up.

[367] It's, everyone's laughing at me. It's my world that's, you know, actually no one really cares.

[368] You know, they might have a laugh.

[369] at you on a Saturday, but they're going back to their own lives.

[370] I feel like it's everyone's laughing at me at all times.

[371] You know, you build these things up in your head and they're never as bad as you think they are.

[372] So his way of dealing with it, you know, with me was to take me out for a beer.

[373] And yeah, I probably did drink a little bit poor than I should do as a Premier League player, but I needed to at that time.

[374] And you bounce between, what, six clubs before the age of 25?

[375] Yeah.

[376] Six?

[377] Yeah.

[378] That's a lot of moving.

[379] It's a lot of moving around, yeah.

[380] But I class that as, like, if I'm at Liverpool or, you know, you're starting Manchester United or Chelsea, you know, buying Munich, Real Madrid, you don't have to move anywhere if you're playing, do you?

[381] You don't have to.

[382] The course of my career was very different to anyone else's course of my career.

[383] And those moves that I had where QPR was, I had a chance to showcase my talent.

[384] You know, I did very well.

[385] The club went into administration.

[386] I went to Portsmouth.

[387] And they bought me for, like, a record fee.

[388] I then did really, really well in a championship and got a move to Astinvina in a Premier League.

[389] I felt like my dream had arrived.

[390] And then it didn't quite work out.

[391] I wasn't ready for the Premier League.

[392] I always remember my debut was against Newcastle and Alan Shearer was up the other end of the pitch and I was at this end of the pit, obviously the opposite striker.

[393] And I thought, if that's what I need to be a Premier League player, I'm not one.

[394] I'm not one because he was so good.

[395] And I just thought, maybe I'm a championship player so I ended up having to move again to Southampton to get games and then things took off so like all my moves were like for a reason for the from a club point of view or for a financial thing for the club or for me having to go out and get football or for me to progress as a player so I would have loved nothing more than to stay at one club for my whole life but that wasn't that wasn't my journey you moved from Liverpool to Spurs how would you sort of summarise your time at Spurs I absolutely loved it because I started at Spurs as a young star and I played in that ball court White Hart Lane and I tried to play in a youth team and I was in the reserves and me and Ledley King came through together Ledley when obviously was there and I went throughout all this whole journey of Liverpool, England, QPR, Portsmouth, Southampton, on Orich on loan, Dulloch, Hamlet on loan.

[396] And I came back to Tottenham and Ledley was in the same place I left him.

[397] Which was amazing.

[398] I never got to play in the first team for Tottenham.

[399] I'd come through there in the youth team.

[400] I had so many players ahead of me. I wasn't ready.

[401] So when I come back for 10 million pounds and I'd already played in the Champions League final, I'd played in the World Cup.

[402] I'd achieve things that nobody in that Tottenham sort of dressing room at the time would say I would achieve.

[403] I wasn't even good enough to play in their first team, which is correct at the time.

[404] So to come back, it felt like unfinished business, if you like.

[405] So then when I scored some important goals for Spurs and we got into the Champions League for the first time and we had good success, that felt like it was almost like a coming home, if you like.

[406] And that ended a little bit too abruptly for your liking.

[407] A bit, yeah.

[408] Yeah, it did.

[409] I liked it at Spurs.

[410] It was funny because I, it was deadline day.

[411] And Harry Rednup was talking about bringing Emmanuel Albiori in.

[412] And it's funny how it works for a footballer, but I went to work, call it work for now.

[413] I left Abby and the kids.

[414] and I said, I'll see this afternoon.

[415] And then this afternoon never came.

[416] I never came home.

[417] And I just give her a call and said, we live in Stoke now.

[418] It's the life of a footballer.

[419] I was happy, I had a two -year contract left at Tottenham.

[420] But I was just, you know, a bid came in of 10 million pounds for a 30 -year -old.

[421] And I can understand from a club's perspective that they wanted to accept the offer.

[422] They wanted to bring Adibuya in.

[423] and I spoke to Harry and he said obviously yeah we do want to bring Adabai or in but Daniel Levy wants to accept this bid obviously I wasn't happy about it you know I was happy where I was I was at a great club and I wanted to stay but certain bits and pieces happened and I said to Ab we're on the move how does Daniel he's a figure that's talked about a lot as being quite a tough tough guy does very what's the word tough business that's what I hear a lot well listen this is you know it's diary of a CEO right if I was running a football club I'd probably have him in charge really yeah he's a harsh businessman right but he's looking after you know a billion pound asset you know he's he's not necessarily the owner but he's running it like it's his own and I think I understand that like the bid of 10 million came in for me, I'm an asset to the business, and I know I'm a person, but if you look at it purely from a business perspective, I'm a depreciating asset at 30 years old, potentially.

[424] I went on to 38, to be fair, but in his eyes, maybe.

[425] Wilson Palacios was another six million to go.

[426] So, 16 million they're getting for, it's good money, it's good business, potentially.

[427] But you know, I'm not stupid either So I had two years left on my deal And you must have had his up He bent over Well, if you think about it He's getting 16 million, right?

[428] It's something like a matter With your arms crossed Yeah, it's not like I know what he's getting I'm entitled to To see someone out if you want me to leave Unless I didn't get that much Obviously I did okay And it worked out for both of us.

[429] But I don't think there's many people that come out of maybe an incident like that with Daniel leaving and come out smiling because he is harsh.

[430] But like I say, I know, I had my running with him.

[431] And there were times where I said, no, it's okay, I'm happy.

[432] I'll see you in the morning.

[433] I'm happy at Tottenham.

[434] I was comfortable there.

[435] And I just said, I see you in the morning.

[436] And I suppose you've got to be prepared to hang up the phone and say that.

[437] And then he kept coming back and telling me that I wouldn't get a squad number.

[438] I wouldn't, I'll be training with the kids, trying to make it my life difficult.

[439] And I was like, no problem.

[440] What was that initial conversation?

[441] He calls you in and says you're off.

[442] Do they not say, I'm interested in the world of football.

[443] Because in the world I'm from, in business, there's a high degree of empathy.

[444] It's a very, you know, conversation, it's performance reviews.

[445] It's very, but we don't have an impending deadline day either.

[446] So I'm just trying to figure out.

[447] if it's like a go get your stuff you're off or if it's a but I think it would be different if you did have a deadline day you know if you're yeah right people will get stuff done on that day so I think you know that rushes people obviously but yeah definitely you're seeing like there's a there's this there's this whole thing about a player should show loyalty and but there's also works both ways you know you know clubs at times if you aren't performing or you're maybe having, I don't know, issues or problems off the field.

[448] Sometimes that side of it doesn't get shown as well, you know, when the club will quite happily get rid of you.

[449] So, yeah, it works both ways.

[450] But, yeah, unfortunately, the business that they're in is buying and selling players and winning football matches.

[451] And it is a ruthless industry.

[452] But I went into that.

[453] I realized that very quickly, to be quite honest.

[454] but I'll I'll went into that with open eyes do you regret leaving Liverpool yeah I do a bit I had a great time at Portsmouth though and some of those memories were will stay with me forever but leaving Liverpool is a difficult thing to do and I was playing for England at the time and I was loving playing for England I was playing well and I just thought we signed Philando Torres and I'm pragmatic I understand my role, if you know what I mean, as a player, he was better than me, right?

[455] So what do I do now?

[456] He's always going to play.

[457] He formed a great partnership with Stephen Gerard.

[458] It's on absolute fire.

[459] I still believe myself.

[460] I still believe I can play for England.

[461] I'm still a very good player.

[462] I'm just not on Torres's level.

[463] So I think he's not, he just wasn't getting injured the whole time I was there.

[464] And then, you know, I'd left.

[465] And then he was sold quite quickly to to Chelsea and I saw players obviously that were playing Andy Carroll yeah I mean you know Andy Carroll you know there was Voron and Gog players that I felt that you know basically I felt like I should I could have played but having said that I'll never look back I've not looked back on any of my people even say to me now like do you miss football no I don't miss football that was a time that I had that was the best and I look back with such fun memories of it.

[466] Same at Liverpool.

[467] I don't think, oh, should have played there for 10 years.

[468] It would have been nice, but it was that I still cherished the moments that I had with Liverpool.

[469] And also the people, I've met some great people at Portsworth and it's such a good club.

[470] And that was just off the back of winning the FA Cup.

[471] And I really thought we'd get into the, to the Champions League our team was that good.

[472] So it was a, it was a, it gave me the opportunity to play and to enjoy my football and to carry on playing for England.

[473] So, do I regret it?

[474] It's the one thing I look back on and think could I have stayed and could I've been at top top club for longer but I love my time at Portsmouth as well.

[475] You mentioned Gerard there and I've seen you talk about Lampard and Beckham and Gerard and Carragher.

[476] What was it that made those individuals great in your view?

[477] What did you see?

[478] I saw something like in those players that that was slightly different to me. Like, I'm not going to...

[479] I enjoyed what I was doing.

[480] Like, I looked at the top -top -level players that I played with and they never looked like they enjoyed it, ever.

[481] Like, yeah, Gerard, Carragher, class in that, John Terry, Lampard.

[482] Like, it was always the next game, you know?

[483] And I think that's the top -level mentality you need to have.

[484] Like, for me, at times I'd go, we've won this, lads, like, join this one a little bit because we had a massive game on Tuesday they would already be thinking about yeah that was good but it's about the next one it's always about the next one and i admire that in people um and i i had a i had a steely mentality but i also thought what are we doing it for you know what yeah of course it's about winning trophies but also it's about this moment we've just won like a huge game, like in the last minute, let's celebrate this moment and deal with tomorrow and tomorrow.

[485] Whereas sometimes the top level players.

[486] Like who?

[487] Yeah, like Stephen Gerald, prime example of that.

[488] Just a constant, it looked like there was no enjoyment.

[489] Obviously it was enjoyment at times, but it felt like it was just the next game was more important than enjoying this one.

[490] and yeah of course it was but I was always a little bit like can I just enjoy this one a little bit which is you know I think separates the I'd class myself as an elite sportsman I played at the top level but I'm talking top top and that's why they're who they are were they intense so intense yeah yeah yeah that's what but I think that's what separates people isn't it I think you know you've got to want to sacrifice everything and you know I did when I was when I was younger and I did throughout my career but what I'm saying is that it's that 0 .5 % that 1 % difference of um of just already thinking about the next game of you know managers do it and as players sometimes we of course enjoy that win and think about the next game when it when it comes but the top level players that I've played with, like you say, Lampard, John Surrey, Stephen Gerard, Jamie Carragher, I put in that, you know, the Demone United boys, like the consistent winners are the ones that I think look like they don't enjoy it and because they are constantly battling for the next thing.

[491] Well, I read that you said some players couldn't deal with the intensity of a Stephen Gerald and a Carragher and that you also were much more orientated to try and please them than the manager, I think was Raffer at the time.

[492] Yeah, that's right, yeah.

[493] You were trying to please, more concerned with pleasing Carragher and Gerard, who were the, you know, like club captain, captain, whatever of the team, than the manager.

[494] Yeah, that's true.

[495] I'm trying to put myself into the changing room and understand why that is.

[496] What were they doing?

[497] They're local boys, right?

[498] They're legends at the club.

[499] When I think of Liverpool, I think of Stephen Gerard and Jamie Carragher.

[500] like Raffa Benitez I suppose was a top manager and he signed me and I you know I got only good words to say about him but Stephen Gerald and David Al absolute legends of the club and quite ruthless in their and quite harsh in their appraisal of some players so I found myself in constantly seeking their approval and my training was you know I always remember the first training session when Steve wrapped a ball into my feet and I'll miscontrol one.

[501] And it's like, it's like a one look would be, you know, you don't do that here.

[502] You're at Liverpool now.

[503] It's one bad touch is intolerated here.

[504] You know, it's that it's only a look, but it was enough to make me not do that again.

[505] You know, that kind of standards are different.

[506] And I think you get that from certain players like Stephen and Jamie.

[507] Would they go at individuals in the change?

[508] Oh, yeah.

[509] Yeah.

[510] I mean, it's their club, you know, and I think some people didn't understand that the level of passion that they had for the club.

[511] And like there's players that on, you know, everyone's different.

[512] Like, you'll know only so well.

[513] Like in a place of work, there's no two characters the same, you know?

[514] So you need to know what makes people tick.

[515] And some people couldn't understand the level of passion that they had for the club, of standards that they had.

[516] They might have come from a more relaxed club.

[517] But unfortunately, if you want to play for Liverpool, you have to have a certain way about you and a certain standard.

[518] And if you've thought below that standard, then players like Stephen and Jamie would tell you very quickly.

[519] In front of everyone.

[520] yeah yeah i mean i've seen i've seen players be signed and be written off in one training session you know 15 million pound players coming in and like he's shit really what i never like no i mean that was you wouldn't get many chances um but then i've also seen players be written off and then come back which obviously in their eyes would would would make them a good good fit for liverpool What do you think of Liverpool right now?

[521] Got the new Nunez guy come in?

[522] Yeah, I like Nunes.

[523] I think, you know, he's a bit...

[524] I think it's going to take him time to settle in.

[525] I don't think we've seen the best of him yet, but as a club, what Juergen Klop's done there, I think...

[526] I look at young kids now who just expect Liverpool to win the Champions League or win the league.

[527] You know, it was 30 -odd years before.

[528] It was a long time, and Jirken Klops just changed the DNA back into...

[529] you know, where they were in the 80s.

[530] I mean, it's that good.

[531] And yeah, they're struggling a little bit now.

[532] But what he's done for that football club has been nothing short of incredible.

[533] And, you know, we had some great players at my time at the club, but, you know, what they've done as a group has surpassed anything that, you know, that spell I had has done.

[534] Yergan, Raffa.

[535] How many managers did you work under your time?

[536] God, with loads over the year.

[537] Almost 10?

[538] God, that's probably more than that.

[539] Probably more than that.

[540] For you, from working with more than 10 footballing managers at varying different levels and also at the very, very top of international and Premier League football, what made a really good manager?

[541] I think there's lots of ways to manage.

[542] And, you know, I did my coaching badges just before I retired.

[543] And you try and use a little bit of the good stuff out of everyone.

[544] But, you know, obviously, like Raffer very tactically, Harry Rednapp was a great people person you know like he understood people and what they wanted and he made it a nice sort of environment you know Sven the same was so relaxed you know in a pressured environment when you were going into a World Cup you just Sven had that aura of calmness around you which you needed so like yeah great managers that I've had along the way but very very different qualities in all of them what about the opposite what was the instances where you thought that's not good management well it was certain things like you know with raffroff there was a tendency to be too intricate to be too methodical to precise at times if you could mix a little bit of raffer and a bit of harry together I figured you'd have the perfect manager because with raffa it was like we're playing wolves at home and we've got Stephen Gerard Javi Alonzo, Fernando Torres, we've got the best back four in the league at the moment and one of the best goalkeepers, just go out and beat them.

[545] You know, like, I don't think it's that difficult.

[546] I don't think you have to play with a couple of holding midfield players and you have to have what we do if we don't have, just go and beat them.

[547] We're at Amfield.

[548] Let's go and express ourselves.

[549] And that was my only criticism, you know, like that I could have.

[550] I think there was too many times where we were thinking.

[551] about the opposition instead of saying we're Liverpool let's go out and batter them who was the best manager you played for um what is you know there's so many reasons for each amount Jerry Francis gave you my debut Graham Ricks was a big influence on my on my career um you know there's good qualities of Sven I thought Rafa was at times was incredible in some of the work they did some of the sessions and some of the things tactically were were really eye -opening.

[552] But Harry Rednapp was, I don't think I'll be sitting here without him.

[553] Just because he understood football, he understood a player and he understood how to get the best out of you.

[554] And I think he got the best out of me. Certainly at Portsmouth, you know, at Southampton.

[555] At Southampton, I was struggling.

[556] I thought, I've just had a horrible time at Aston Villa.

[557] this is my time in the Premier League and it's not going well I'm not playing the manager leaves Harry comes in and he goes this is my last chance saloon and I'm thinking right well maybe I'm just the championship player Harry comes in it just changes like that he says you and Kevin Fedlitz will be my front too for the rest of the season your score has enough goals for us to stay up and just that confidence that belief and what like I suppose I felt my height for the first time that season and I went out and scored 16 goals I think after Christmas and I was on absolute fire got in the England squad and moved to Liverpool at the end of the year um so that that little spell of six months was crucial um to my development as a as a player as a person and would I be sitting here without that you know there's lots of things you look at you know would I be would I be here without that without that and there's lots of really key important moments and that was definitely one of them, Harry, coming in.

[558] It's crazy how much it's like someone believing in you at some point when maybe you don't believe in yourself can have such a huge impact on how you behave and then ultimately what results you get.

[559] Yeah, if you're getting told that you're, you know, you're this and you're that, you're no good, you're, I don't think, you have to be a real strong character to be able to cope with that.

[560] And when someone comes in and goes, actually, no, you're doing great stuff.

[561] You know, it lifts you.

[562] It makes you feel better and that's the way I would manage and that's the way I think you have to manage these days I think players are different to how it was when I was coming through it was very much quite harsh industry and I think now players are a bit more you have to be a bit more of an arm around the shoulder guy than you know crack the whip kind of manager when I sat here with like Patrice and Pritchie Everer, Gary Neville, Real Ferdinand They all say the same thing about Sir Alex.

[563] The first comment they'll make when you ask why he was so good, they all say man in management.

[564] And they tell this story of how he was kind of this bespoke, almost like a unique shape jigsaw piece for each person.

[565] So for Nanny, he was one, Sir Alex Ferguson.

[566] And for like, for Gary Neville, he was a different shape because he understood everybody and understood which buttons to press, how hard he could press to get the best out of them.

[567] And we tend to think of like management as one, being one thing, like being one person to everybody.

[568] but even from what you've said there and what they've told me, it seems that great management is being like a bit of a shape shifted depending on who you're dealing with.

[569] I think that is exactly right.

[570] I think you've hit the nail on the head there and the boys that you know you talk about there of it's spot on because you can't treat everyone the sort of same way.

[571] You can't even train the same way.

[572] If you go in, you know, you're telling all the players to go in the gym and, you know, do this, do a certain weight or, you know, be a certain speed.

[573] You can't, it's everyone is, different.

[574] Everyone's a different character.

[575] Everyone's a different mould as a player.

[576] You know, certain players, you can, like Kantanar, for instance, you talk about Sir Alex Ferguson, you know, not many players could handle Kantanar.

[577] Alex Ferguson got the best out of Kantanar because he treated him different to how he would treat Gary Neville.

[578] And it's not, you know, it's not rocket science, but it's, it's a quality that not many people have.

[579] They're not able to adapt.

[580] It's like, this is my management style.

[581] Everyone has to fall in line with it.

[582] I don't think as a manager that is the best way to go about things.

[583] It's about adapting to people that you might need to speak to on a regular basis.

[584] Certain people you might need to tell, you know, some home truths.

[585] Certain people that you might need to, you know, constantly get into the office or, you know, let someone else deal with him potentially.

[586] You know, you might spot a problem that it might have off the field that needs addressing.

[587] You know, there's so many factors to being a manager and I think Alex Ferguson was what he's proven to be the best at that reminds me of watching that Netflix documentary about Michael Jordan and called The Last Dance Brilliant brilliant fucking I changed my life though I think I like I got like a Michael Jordan thing upstairs Oh yeah yeah I was you know if I was a basketball player actually wanted to be there It was a phenomenal documentary yeah change really really change I'll be honest and people will be surprised to hear this I understood that Michael Jordan made shoes but I didn't really know who he was before then.

[588] And when I watched that, it was one of those ones where you put it on and you watch the whole thing in one sitting, I was, it changed my life.

[589] Well, you're younger than me. I remember him clear as day, you know, playing with the balls, yeah.

[590] I mean, he, I think, is the greatest sportsman that's ever been.

[591] It's a controversial statement.

[592] You know, there's so many sportsmen out there, but what Michael Jordan did was, was unbelievable in that, like, I loved that kind of mentality going into that mentality of, like, winning at all costs and watching that Balls team, because it wasn't just Jordan, like, that, that whole, that whole team was special.

[593] That's what I was going to say, like Dennis Rodman, he was a character where, which sounds much like Cantonar in a way, where he would go on Benders for a couple of days, the manager goes, That's Dennis.

[594] That's Dennis.

[595] That's Dennis.

[596] And they won everything.

[597] Exactly, but like, that's what I'm saying.

[598] You're like, could you, Dennis was a huge part defensively of that set up with the balls.

[599] And if you didn't have him, if you didn't, and I know letting him, I don't, I know letting him, I think this is obviously that, you know, probably too far, but letting him go to Vegas for a couple of weeks.

[600] At least you get Dennis back for those games at the end that are important.

[601] And I think it's obviously ridiculous for him to do that.

[602] But that was in his makeup.

[603] That was in his DNA.

[604] And, you know, is it better for you to let him go to a rival?

[605] Or do you accept that and win the titles they did?

[606] All the great managers, like the ones we've talked about, seemed to have instances where they were okay to make an exception.

[607] I guess the risk is what message does that send to the other players?

[608] It's almost a bit of an unfairness.

[609] If Cantonar or Dennis Robman or whoever can go and do that, yet you're having me fucking show up every day and you're pressing me in a different way.

[610] That's not fair.

[611] Well, yeah, I totally agree with you.

[612] But I don't know if the boys told this story last time, but, you know, the story of Ryan Giggs, when he turned up for a team event and he's got no tie on.

[613] and Eric Cantanar walks in with no tire of pair of trainers and Alex Ferguson's obviously absolutely, you know, Cain Ryan Giggs and told him to go home and get a tie on, like, who do you think you are?

[614] Eric walks in, sits down, doesn't say a word.

[615] Really?

[616] Yeah, because it's Eric Cantonar, you know, and I think Ryan Giggs was just capable of winning a football match as Eric Cantonar.

[617] But where this does fall down is when those players stop performing and I've seen that.

[618] I've seen players get treated differently and that's fine until they're not Eric Cantanar, they're not Michael Jordan, they're not Tiger Woods, they're not constantly winning games for you because if you set yourself up like that, you better perform.

[619] And they're not quite often they can because they're top players but you are you are creating a problem for yourself, I think, if you don't consistently deliver.

[620] But maybe that's the reason they do consistently deliver because they are wired up differently to a lot of the rest of us.

[621] Which kind of makes me think about Ronaldo and what happened the other week with him storming down the tunnel, et cetera, et cetera.

[622] Now, me and my friends in our group chat, we all have kind of different points of view on it.

[623] You know, people are saying, oh, Sir Alex, would have let him do that, this, whatever, whatever, whatever.

[624] As someone that's been inside the changing room and probably seen seen moments where a certain player is being disruptive.

[625] What was your read on that situation and the impact of it?

[626] But in all honesty, it's nothing new.

[627] I think it's because it's Ronaldo, it's a huge story.

[628] But I've seen it over the course of my career, players who aren't playing, we call it throwing the toys out of the pram.

[629] You know, being disruptive, letting their feelings be known that they're not happy with the situation.

[630] As players, it's constantly happening So you don't worry Because it's Ronaldo, it's blown out proportion I've seen it many times I've seen it with a particular player We're playing in a preseason match He just walked off the pitch while we're playing And I'm like, you know, this is absolutely ridiculous He's literally walked in with out of ten men And no one even noticed he'd gone for the first couple of minutes And just yeah, like just just just fuming But my take on the situation is I think it's disrespectful to the players that are playing still.

[631] They've just won, or just they were winning at the time.

[632] I think it was something that he probably regrets.

[633] And I think it's something that the manager dealt with, and I think dealt with well.

[634] Yeah, that's what I was going to say, because I remember you're saying that good managers that you've worked with could keep the respect, and that being a key word respect.

[635] Now, if he doesn't deal with that profit, Without doubt.

[636] I mean, listen, players are on every little moment.

[637] Like, if you don't know the answer to a particular question, lie, and lie well.

[638] Because players will, if they sense an element of you've been unsure about a situation, they'll pounce on it.

[639] You're talking about a manager.

[640] I'm talking about management, managers.

[641] You know, players, if you're a manager and you don't have control of the dress room at all times, it's hard to come back from that.

[642] Like, you need to command respect.

[643] And it's a harsh industry.

[644] Like, lots of players.

[645] with egos and trying to manage players that aren't playing with those egos is a tough thing to do and when you've got someone of the stature of Ronaldo like managing him not playing in the dresser room is a difficult thing to do you know put yourself in ten hard shoes it's a it's a situation where the club of i think i believe told him he has to stay because they want to play him now he's not playing and the window's shut how do you deal with that problem it's it's going to be a huge issue.

[646] But I felt he dealt with it well.

[647] I think the club potentially didn't do very very well.

[648] If he wasn't going to play, they should have sold him.

[649] But they're now in that situation where, yeah, he's done that.

[650] He's been fined, I assume, and he's been dropped for the next squad.

[651] But it looks like he's potentially getting back in.

[652] And that is what is the best situation for the club.

[653] Because you don't want Ronaldo training with the kids away from the away from the first team you want him in and around it because he'll be an asset potentially at the end of games or to start some games I'm really compelled by that point you made about like as a manager if you don't know the answer to maybe a strategic thing you're better off just lying than like losing the control of the room well like say if you're in your industry right if you're an employee of yours asks you what should we do here I don't know if it's as cutthroat as football but I think it's better to have an answer than to say you don't know.

[654] Yeah, yeah.

[655] Right?

[656] So even if you don't know, because it's giving them confidence.

[657] Even if you don't know, you say, we're looking into that, we've worked on that.

[658] You know, that's something that we, you know, just make, the moment you say you don't know, I think there's an element of, he hasn't got a clue.

[659] There's no sat down here.

[660] Basically, yeah, I think.

[661] And I think it was Guardiola who said it, you know these wise words didn't come from me personally they were they were guadiola's words and i think it was something to do with um if someone asked you a question you have an answer for them um even if you don't know it you'll you'll go do your homework and come back to to that question because you you need to be seen as a level above um the players uh you need to have you know more you need to be more clued up you need to have more um intricate details on the opposition you need to know about football more than the players do.

[662] So they have that respect for you.

[663] Was there other times, you know, you talked about losing the dressing room.

[664] No, I hear that from pundits.

[665] I hear maybe he's lost the dressing room.

[666] You sometimes hear that from like other commentators online.

[667] But I wondered if that's an actual thing that happens that you've observed where you go, man, I just fucking lost this now.

[668] Players start questioning him, you know, behind his back or...

[669] Yeah, I think you can see it.

[670] When did you see it?

[671] I've seen it at certain times.

[672] I don't think it would be fair for me to say names.

[673] But I have seen it in certain dresser rooms where a manager has lost it a little bit.

[674] We had a situation at Stoke where we had probably the best dresser room I've ever been a part of.

[675] And then we added some more talented players, more than sort of hardworking, honest players, if you like.

[676] And we had for a spell, we had a really good mix of that real quality and that kind of determination and spirit and then it went too far the other way it was almost almost too much quality and not enough effort determination team spirit ethic standards they slipped you know and I'll see things that I'd never seen before I talked about the player walking off the pitch that happened in that in that season and it culminated in in relegation you know so when you talk about lost the dress room I didn't serve sure I class myself in that in that scenario because I was more of a I was an older player then and maybe I let things go things go a bit as well you know like this not my standards personally didn't drop but I let people get away with things when I was an older player like I should have been the Stephen Gerrard in the situation you know I should have been a player that flagged it up maybe.

[677] That wrangles with me. Like I let things go.

[678] I know it wasn't my job to do that, but I was an experienced player.

[679] When you say you've not seen, you saw things you hadn't seen before.

[680] It kind of reminded me somewhat of what I remember Rio saying about when he moved to, I think it was QPR from Manchester United and he saw just a completely different dressing room culture.

[681] Yeah, exactly right.

[682] Well, I'm friends of Rio.

[683] I speak to him about that time.

[684] Feels similar.

[685] feel similar in some ways like you have almost too many doing what they want you know just being late or little little things like that like being late being late on the training pitch being late for games you know not wearing the right suit or not wearing the right track suits of games wearing whatever they want you know wearing caps when you're not supposed to just little things like that it makes you become lax like and we might go a goal down two goals down and you can see players sort of you know waving their arms around and not tracking back and i remember asking a particular player like you stop trying you stop working and he said yeah i said what he said i did yeah i said why he said we were three down i couldn't believe it you know it's 30 000 people in a stadium right paid to watch us play and you've given up and I know it's horrible those games they're horrible you just but at least you've got those run round and that's that's when I knew we're in big trouble it's funny that it's the small the small things like just wearing it up yeah they all lad up does that not start with a manager though in those situations where the manager's just not calling it out enough he's not punishing you know he lets one thing slide let's two things slide before you know it you're at the bottom of the fucking slope yeah that was exactly what happened there was certain things that were let go and you're like whoa and then you feel like you can get away with more with more with more and there was a certain thing where you'd have to run after a game if you didn't play so at that time like i was on the i was 37 years old you know i was sometimes i was on the bench and i'd be out there running and you know there was a younger player not not out after the game doing this fitness work and i came in i'm like what's going on you know why am i 37 i'm out here running after a game and this 25 year old is is not which i didn't want to he didn't want to didn't want to right so these these are the standards i'm talking about so but you've got to that's that's you've been asked to do it you don't pick and choose whether you do it or not but that was allowed to happen anyway it happened again anyway to this particular player said right because he hasn't run after um the game, we're all in on Sunday, right?

[686] So the whole team coming on Sunday.

[687] We were coming, this was supposed to be our day off.

[688] So we're all in training, and the particular player didn't turn up for training, right?

[689] So we're all in because of him, and he doesn't turn up.

[690] So, I mean, you can imagine what the lads are like, but just little, I'll say little things.

[691] I mean, that was a big thing, but just standard slipping and listen, you know, it all ends everyone knows where it ends.

[692] It ends badly.

[693] When did you decide that your football career was over?

[694] Tell me about that decision and that time in your life.

[695] Yeah, I was lucky.

[696] I got the opportunity to get out of that dressing room that I was in at Stoke, which was difficult.

[697] And I got the opportunity to play for the exact opposite at Burnley and I finished in the Premier League.

[698] And I knew that I was done that season because I was on the bench a lot and there was players playing ahead of me that I knew should have been ahead of me in my thoughts of myself.

[699] I am just a plan being now.

[700] I'm, you know, I'm coming on at the end of games.

[701] And I still felt fit.

[702] I still felt I could have an impact, but I knew inside my own head.

[703] So I told my family, I told, you know, I told, you know, the kids are still very young.

[704] And we all went to the game.

[705] So they, you know, they didn't all come.

[706] I'd, you know, a young baby, you know, they didn't often come to the games now.

[707] I didn't play much.

[708] So they all came.

[709] And it was nice because I knew, no one else knew, but I knew that it was my last game of football was against Arsenal.

[710] at Burnley and all the family came on and you know when he walked around the pitch at the end and I've got a picture at home on the wall of me and it was three kids we had that time got four now I believe what or not but the three of us on the pitch and a lovely picture of me walking out it's my last game of professional football I must have played you know 600 700 games it was my last game I knew it but no one else did but yeah a lovely pitch a lovely moment and then it just sort of comes flooding in that it's over 20 years I played I left school at 16 I retired at 38 22 years every day of my life doing something that you loved I looked back on it with such fond memories I was so lucky to have played in an era that was was full of great players I managed to play for England and you know I probably exceeded what I thought I could ever achieve so always look back on it fondly when people ask me um do you miss it.

[711] No, I don't miss it.

[712] I cherish the moments that I had.

[713] And your dad was your dad there that day?

[714] Yeah, my dad was there that day, yeah.

[715] And, you know, he was the one, because he was there every single, I don't think he missed the game.

[716] And he was part of my superstition, bizarrely.

[717] He was part of, you know, if I didn't see him before a game, I'd feel unnerved.

[718] You know, like, I'd feel like, where is he?

[719] And don't get me wrong, there were times where I was on the bench towards the end, and he got a season to get a QPR.

[720] And deservedly so.

[721] And deservedly so.

[722] You know, I didn't want to put him through that.

[723] But it was, yeah, I mean, he was with me every step of the way.

[724] He came through every game.

[725] Yeah, I mean, I didn't.

[726] I don't think he missed many.

[727] Handful, you know, of those 600, 700, right from when I was a kid.

[728] So, yeah, it was like a comfort blanket when I saw it.

[729] And he would watch me, not even at kickoff, he would watch me, he'd be the first in the stadium.

[730] I would walk out at before the warm up and I'd see him.

[731] I'd always see him, you know, six or five, I'd always be able to see him.

[732] And he'd give me a little wave, and he'd watch our warmed up.

[733] And then after the game, he'd even say, like, I knew you'd have a good game in the warm -up because he'd always watch even the warm -up.

[734] So, yeah.

[735] When your career ended, did you ever have a conversation with him about your journey in football, I guess?

[736] Was there ever, like, any conclusive conversations about how it all went and...

[737] Yeah, you know what?

[738] Like, we had sort of like a bit of a retirement video, if you like and I've got together a load of ex -players and managers that I've played with which was nice and made it, put it on a big screen but I don't think I've ever sat down and discussed at length my career.

[739] I mean life's too busy isn't it?

[740] I look at, I've got a wall like you have and a few sort of accolades, match balls, Ignan caps on the wall, only one particular room.

[741] I only allowed like a little dungeon room.

[742] But I've got them on the wall and I look back and I look got some pictures on there and I look at the moments and I think like they were some great times but like a same life moves quick and I love I love what I'm doing now and I've gone straight into doing other things and I was very conscious of that like I planned I planned a little bit of that you know I planned while I was still playing I did the podcast and I did the first book that I did and like and I did my coaching badges as well so my coach I thought you know maybe I'll be a manager I didn't know, but I just basically, I was so scared of waking up on that Monday because every player that I've ever played with just says to me, like, when you're retired, like, you've forgotten like that, you, it's difficult, it's hard to get your head round it, keep playing as long as you can, you always hear these horror stories.

[743] So I was so worried about it.

[744] I just thought, right, I need to do everything now before I retire.

[745] And I think it was the best thing I ever did was to stay, was to do things while I was still player to test things out and see what I want to go into and start building that bridge I guess a little bit yeah to the other side if you like and um like I say the book and the podcast just went bang and that I just got propelled into a into a world in the in the media really was there over a moment when you were after you'd retired where you where you had a bit of a down day and you thought you know because I remember reading I think in your book where you talk about how you spend those 20 years like everything sorted for you your schedule sorted you know where you're to be you kind of know there's so much structure in your life and then suddenly the structure's gone and a real clear sense of like orientation and collective purpose has gone was there ever a post -retirement moment where you go ugh i don't think i've had that really and i feel really lucky like because i know so many players that i've really struggled since they're retired um but i feel so lucky in in what i'm doing now and like i'd love to sit here and i've got to be honest with you ever i can't i have i haven't had that and what i what i don't like is is not having that structure.

[746] Like, for instance, I know exactly where I'm going to be on September the 16th, on, you know, February the 12th.

[747] I know where I'm going to be.

[748] I know where I'm going to be training.

[749] Now, I couldn't tell you what I'm doing next week.

[750] Like, things come up, things change.

[751] I don't like that.

[752] I like, I've been institutionalized, if you like.

[753] I'm in a, I like getting told on a Monday we do this.

[754] I don't want to It was I suppose for 20 years I didn't have to grow up Yeah You know now I do I came straight from school To people They used to take our passports off us You know We weren't even allowed to They didn't trust us Enough to get ourselves To the airport You know It was That's how football is Everything's done for you So you can purely concentrate On football And I quite like that In a weird way Because you solely focus on one thing whereas now there's lots of different things that I do and...

[755] Lots of choice.

[756] Choices, yeah, like lots of decisions to make.

[757] It's like being an adult, it's not great.

[758] It reminds me of, you know, Raphael Rowe?

[759] It was the guy who was imprisoned when he was younger for a crime he didn't commit a sentence to like, came out.

[760] And he was telling me he was like, honestly, when I came out, it's like, I went to a supermarket and there's like seven types of beans.

[761] Yeah.

[762] And he stood in the supermarket and what the fuck do I do?

[763] What do I do?

[764] He hated it, and he'd have him and his partner would clash because he was never used to making decisions in prison.

[765] You get one type of fucking beans.

[766] So true, though.

[767] I honestly, like, with football, like, you are told where to be what to do at all times until you're on a football pitch, but even something really that as well, you know, your manager's telling you what to do.

[768] But I quite liked it in some ways, but obviously the freedom is great in other ways.

[769] You know, like I have at Christmas now, I can spend time with the kids.

[770] If I choose to have a week off during the winter, I can have that.

[771] You know, there's pros and negatives to both.

[772] Are you a workaholic?

[773] I think I've got a good work ethic, definitely.

[774] Without doubt, I enjoy it.

[775] I enjoy getting up and having a purpose.

[776] Do you feel like you're out of balance, though?

[777] Yeah, I'm finding the balance really tough.

[778] Okay.

[779] Yeah.

[780] Same.

[781] Really tough.

[782] Obviously, you know, speak to others about this as well because we, I struggle.

[783] Like, I'll have one week where I'm constantly on the go.

[784] and then we're a little bit quieter but yeah I sort of sold her the dream of retirement as being retirement and it hasn't quite worked out that way because I love doing what I'm doing why did you sell her well I sold her like we began the gym every day you know little juices and we'll be on dog walks I said you know we're just Rome yeah we'll go some quality time quality time and yeah it's not quite worked out that way but she knows I'm passionate about what I do I'm very I love what I do now and I'm still involved in football which I love you know like I like I say I do the podcast that I absolutely love doing and various other bits and pieces come up and I'm in a fortunate position I know I'm in a fortunate position to be able to pick and choose the stuff that I do and I do it purely for enjoyment and of course you know I try and make it the best it can be and so I can earn off it but the main focus was the same as my football career really was to do something that you enjoy and I'm lucky in the fact that I can still do that.

[785] Is your main dispute in your relationship?

[786] Because this is the answer for mine is this issue of quality time.

[787] It's like that's the thing I struggle with most is doing all this stuff and constantly da -da -da -da -da.

[788] And then being there to give this person quality time that they want where you just go for the fucking walk and you just do nothing.

[789] It seems like nothing, but obviously it's something.

[790] Picnic.

[791] But you must find that hard.

[792] I find that hard to, but she's the same, you know.

[793] Like, I think it would be easy to say that, I don't know, like there's a misconception of maybe footballers' wives that, you know, they just relax all day.

[794] She's so driven.

[795] And she drives me, to be honest.

[796] And she's, I run all my decisions past her.

[797] And I don't think a lot of people know that about it.

[798] her, but she's like, she's on it.

[799] And, um, you know, so that's, that's good in the fact that if we go for a walk together, we'll have some quality time together, but we both won't switch off together.

[800] You know, like we're still bouncing ideas off each other.

[801] And, um, and I'm glad that I can have someone like that.

[802] So, you know, yeah, of course we switch off at times, but we're still, we're still very on it, both of us.

[803] So your podcast, absolute smash hit.

[804] A lot of, a lot of, a lot of ex -players, ex -athletes have started podcasts.

[805] I can't think of any that have risen to the heights that yours has risen to.

[806] Mike Tyson has a great podcast in the United States.

[807] It's really been a bit of a cult phenomenon, the show.

[808] And as you kind of said, you know, I've heard you talk about the driver's here a few times, and it's always, you know, saying very nice things and saying that, you know, our production and stuff is great.

[809] But it is like a couple of lads in a pub chatting.

[810] Yeah, I suppose that is our thing.

[811] I think it is a reflection of me. It's what I like to do.

[812] So I think I suppose we could now, because things have gone well, upgrade our set up a little bit.

[813] But it doesn't, it feels like we need to stay where we are.

[814] We love being in the pub.

[815] We like, you know, having a bit of a drink while we do it.

[816] And it feels certainly during lockdown, you know, we have lots of comments from listeners and people writing in and they feel like they're in there with us, you know, and it feels like, obviously, this is a different kind of podcast, you know, more serious, more enlightening maybe.

[817] But I try and I try and take people inside the world of what it's like being a footballer, and it's a mad, funny world.

[818] It is, and of course, it's lighthearted, but hopefully it's a little bit informative as well.

[819] And when I say I love doing it, it's genuinely the most fun.

[820] When I say to Ab, I'm going to work, she's like you joking I'm leaving her with the four children and I'm going to a pub in town to record with lads that I get on really really well with and just talking football I suppose that is that is the you know for a lot of people certainly in my world that is the ideal job and I'm I feel very fortunate I've got it the podcast offers people that kind of that sense of connection and community, like they are in the pub with you, which some people don't have, unfortunately, these days in a world that's getting lonelier.

[821] But at the same time, it's not just like, it's not just banter.

[822] I remember seeing the episode with Prince William and where you talked about mental health and those kind of topics.

[823] And I think one of your co -hosts, I can't remember which one shared some of the feedback that you guys get from the audience that are listening.

[824] That particular episode with Prince William, how the fuck did you get from the first start?

[825] How did you get Prince William's kind of have a part?

[826] with you on the podcast.

[827] There are points in this podcast.

[828] Obviously, like, where it all started from?

[829] I didn't have, you know, I was just telling a story.

[830] I didn't know what a podcast was.

[831] You know, obviously now I know that, you know, there's a huge industry of things.

[832] But I was just talking literally as I was talking to my, how I would talk to my mates.

[833] And obviously, yeah, we built up like a big following.

[834] And then people started calling us about coming on.

[835] And that was a call we had from the palace.

[836] I promise you, was, you know, we had, at one point there was like we had Elton John had called and Prince William had called not personally but you know their team of people had called us about coming on and obviously with Elton that was a difference story it was funny but with Prince William we made it happen and we ended up going to the Kingston Palace which was an amazing day out because we took it you know our group of lads and we had a beer over the road before we went in and then And, you know, Prince William, I talk about the Samrat, the Indian restaurant that I used to go to with my mates as a kid.

[837] And when Prince William brought in the delivery and put it down, and I was thinking, if my mates, he always to go there as kids, my family, and, you know, he's doing this.

[838] And it was just so surreal.

[839] But like you say, we got to talk about a range of topics.

[840] And I suppose, you know, certainly in football, there's a lot, because there's a stigma in football of, you know, it's very macho and you have to, you know, you have to be.

[841] you have to man up you know like you you have to there's this stigma and i think that this is why sort of the target audience for prince william and his heads i think it's heads together or heads up charity um for mental health is targeting the right people if you like the people that don't speak out um so i think he wanted to tap into sort of our audience that would be very much uh don't show any weakness um you know that football world if you know what i mean so yeah i think that was something that he wanted to touch, touch base with.

[842] I'd done something with him called a a team talk.

[843] I think it was a royal team talk.

[844] I think it was called on BBC.

[845] And we talked about, you know, mental health and stories in football.

[846] That's the first time I shared my issues is, you know, I never ever talked about anything.

[847] I was one of those people that kept everything.

[848] So yeah, it was a nice, it was a great experience for us as a podcast and I think hopefully it helped a few people as well.

[849] You talked about on that podcast.

[850] going into the changing room and like opening up to your teammates at one point.

[851] Yeah, I mean, I found it really difficult to, I'm one of those people that keeps everything aside, right?

[852] I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't talk about, I see Abby every single night like picking off the phone to her friends and chatting about anything.

[853] I mean, I just don't do that.

[854] I don't, I wouldn't dream of picking up the phone and, you know, talking about a problem.

[855] But since these kinds of things that I've done since that podcast, since, you know, I've done a various, you know, the November campaign.

[856] I've worked with them.

[857] I've worked with various kind of men's mental health charities.

[858] And it is, it does make you think.

[859] And, you know, I have started doing more stuff.

[860] I have started, you know, reaching out to my friends.

[861] And you realize actually that people aren't always, we will say they're always all right, but they're not.

[862] There's something I've realized.

[863] I think the quote from that from that podcast with Prince William was you've gone into the dressing room you'd shared how you were feeling with your teammates and instantly you kind of felt lighter because of it you felt better for opening up yeah that's that's something that I definitely found like I've when was that um no that was the royal team talk we opened up to it was me yeah tiary um Danny rose who was quite open with his mental health problems um Gareth Southgate I think Dan Walker that was the presenter and Prince William and like when you actually get like a like a group of lads there talking like Prince William wasn't Prince William you know Tieri Omri wasn't Tieri Omri was just a group of blocs talking and Prince William's talking about bereavement and you think you know oh my God like you don't I don't know it's like that's not real it's like a not real life and you think actually when he's sitting there he's just a lad He's lost his mom.

[864] And he's got that fucking...

[865] Yeah, like, it was an amazing talk because you're not seeing her as Princess Diana and you're not seeing him as the future king of England.

[866] You're seeing him as a man who's struggling who's lost his mom.

[867] And I think sometimes when you read things and you look at things, like I say, it's that thing of playing football and not realizing that they're actually...

[868] It's on a human level.

[869] It's just a fellow that's lost his...

[870] lost his mom and has struggled with that over time.

[871] And when you say you opened up, you're referring to the stuff you've talked about today with...

[872] Yeah, me personally, yeah, I opened up about, yeah, looking different a bit, you know, like and getting heckled and being sort of that impressionable teenager and sort of dealing with that kind of pressure of looking different, if you like.

[873] Bizarrely, that's become sort of like my superpower now.

[874] It's become sort of at me. it's like I'm recognisable I am I think people understand like all my insecurities if you like I've been what has probably made me successful in in the stuff that I've gone on to do when you do look back at your success and in hindsight you go okay maybe this was a big part of it this was part of it what are the the key things that in hindsight you go that's why I was successful Because earlier on you said, like, most of the football players, especially the strikers, didn't look like you.

[875] But you were still successful.

[876] You still played at the very top of the game.

[877] You still had the England caps.

[878] You still scored all those goals for England.

[879] So what was it about you?

[880] Listen, I had ability.

[881] You know, I did.

[882] I felt like I was a good player.

[883] And I worked on that.

[884] Like, that was something like, if I was going to be tall, I wasn't going to be this, what everyone thought I was going to be, you know?

[885] which was that big target you can lump the ball up to you know i wanted to have technical abilities so i worked on that i constantly worked on that um so that was obviously something that stood me out and then i had to work on my on my heading um because i was incredibly tall but i didn't have to jump as a young lad and then when you get to play professional football you then realize that you know people are going to jump they're going to beat you in the air and it looks ridiculous if you're six foot seven and you're losing headers so i had to work on on my heading and obviously it's determination it's the will to succeed, it's the desire, it's the ability to deal with knockbacks that stand you out probably from the rest.

[886] Knockbacks.

[887] Ever, did you ever have experience with, especially through the period with Liverpool where you went 18 games without scoring and the various twists and turns throughout your career?

[888] Did you ever experience anxiety?

[889] Yeah, I'd say so.

[890] Listen, I'm not an expert on this field.

[891] I wouldn't say I'm an anxious person.

[892] Like I say, I'm a glass, half full kind of person.

[893] But I would say, of course, like in football in terms of course, I was anxious.

[894] I was snatching at chances.

[895] And was I anxious off the field?

[896] Yeah, couldn't switch off from it.

[897] Couldn't stop thinking about it, couldn't sleep.

[898] Couldn't sleep?

[899] Yeah, I wouldn't have been able to sleep.

[900] certainly after games but I found that difficult anyway the kind of buzz that you get from playing a match under the lights especially is so difficult to sleep after I think physically impossible at times where are you now in terms of your mental well -being and your mental health yeah good good yeah like I would never I would never I don't think I'd class myself as ever as having problems I've had issues that I've had to manage personally like everyone has I think but I'd say I'm in a good place I just need to get the balance right between this new field that I'm in if you like and family life I need to get the right balance where I'm working enough to sort of satisfy that that hunger to keep going and not miss what is important which is my kids which I at the door and I want to see I want to see grow up and I want to be at the forefront of that I want to be hands on, you know?

[901] So I've got to try and work that balance out something.

[902] Yeah, that's my biggest problem.

[903] I always, you know, I think I always hear this voice which is like, when is enough enough?

[904] Like, when is enough going to be enough?

[905] Like, podcast is going great, business is going great.

[906] You've done, achieve loads of things.

[907] Like, what else do you need?

[908] When is enough enough?

[909] It's difficult one because I think it's, for me, it's about, it's about the work, but I was about enjoying it and if it stops being fun then I think that's the time to to call it quits.

[910] Crouchfest.

[911] 19th of November.

[912] Yeah, 19th of November.

[913] I mean, I've seen it because I watched all the videos from like 2019.

[914] Yeah, that's right.

[915] It looked like a right fucking laugh.

[916] Liam Balaga is there.

[917] Oh, it was so much fun.

[918] Yeah, well, the thing is, like, people buy tickets and not have a clue what they're letting themselves in for.

[919] And it is one of the one of the best things that we've ever done and we just thought we'd scale it up this time last time we had Liam Gallagher on I had Catherine Jenkins singing the Champions League anthem who had a fellow that wrote the Champions League anthem spoke to us.

[920] Tom Greland knew me at six we had people dressed as referees, fancy dress it was absolute carnage and yeah now we're at Wembley Arena we've scaled it up Wembley Arena Wembley Arena Jesus Christ Yeah so I mean we've probably bit enough more than we can share I'm not going to like you but yeah great guests and looking forward to it so much what are you promising for this crouch first that's the thing we don't promise anything we literally don't say a word to anyone and we've got obviously I mean some of the things that we've been getting up to has been a lot of fun and some of the knockbacks that we've had have been priceless because we're asking things that Wembley Arena has never seen before but yeah honestly I can't tell you how much fun the last one was and if it was half as good it'll be it'll be a great event well everyone listening can there's a few tickets left so you can go there probably there might not be by the time it comes out but you can go buy tickets online for crouch fest it looks like I mean I watched the highlights from 2019 and it looked like it looked like a huge group of mates pissed having a laugh that's exactly what it is yeah I can't dress you up anymore but you're welcome to come if I'm here I'll come for sure for sure it look really really, really good.

[921] What is your goal now?

[922] What is next for you?

[923] All these things going on in your life, the media stuff.

[924] You're presenting on BT, etc, etc. You've got the podcast.

[925] You've got this amazing book.

[926] You've just written, well, it's just come out in October, I believe.

[927] How to be an ex -footballer.

[928] The reviews for this book are insane.

[929] Much of the stories you've told to me today.

[930] Some of them are in here.

[931] Some of them are in your previous book, but both books are Sunday Times top bin's bestseller.

[932] What is next?

[933] What is the?

[934] Yeah, I, like I say, like this um i'm finding my feet i have no clue i had no clue where i was going to go i i didn't know what angle to to go for um i i'm doing things because i enjoy them and like when you say what is your goal it i don't want to come on here diarrhea of a ceo right and everyone's got a goal everyone's got a purpose everyone knows what they're going to do i have to be honest with you i don't i don't have a goal I don't have, I don't want to be doing this in five years or that in five years.

[935] My goal was achieved.

[936] Like, all I wanted to be was a football player.

[937] All I wanted to do was be, was do it at any level every single day.

[938] And then I felt like I did that.

[939] I achieved it.

[940] I achieved more than I ever thought I would.

[941] And now everything is, you know, that is happening to me is, is the things that I'm enjoying and their roots and avenues that I'm taking, but there's no particular goal.

[942] I don't know that might be difficult for you to...

[943] Not at all.

[944] But I just can't...

[945] I haven't got a motive or a plan.

[946] I'm just living each day and enjoying each day that I'm given, and I feel like I'm blessed in the situation that I'm in.

[947] But this is the most genuine thing I can tell you.

[948] I don't have an end goal.

[949] I think you'd be surprised how...

[950] common that is.

[951] You know, I think people think that I have everything figured out necessarily like a North Star or a goal, but I've said on this podcast a million times that I've never written a business plan in my life.

[952] It's really about like doing my best today and doing that every day and kind of being open to the things that come along because goals can also be really unhelpful in the sense of like it might make you miss an opportunity.

[953] If you had a goal when you left football to become a coach, you might miss the opportunity to do the podcast or all these other things.

[954] Well, I feel like it's also now reminded in some way you go like you have the end goal, but like you say, these missed opportunities.

[955] Like I did the book, I did the podcast and things took off and then opportunities come off the back of that.

[956] And as long as those things are going well, the opportunities will consider you come.

[957] And then you might find that you enjoy something else or a different avenue.

[958] And that is where I'm going.

[959] I'm on a journey that I have no clue where it's going, but I'm enjoying it and long way at last.

[960] At the start, you mentioned that the way you were treated when you're younger, looking a bit different, meant that you used kind of self disparagement, criticizing yourself, making a joke at yourself first as a defense mechanism.

[961] Much of the reason why people love your books, love your podcast, is because they're like really, really funny.

[962] And they make people laugh.

[963] And even from like hanging out with you today for a couple of hours, whatever, you are one of those real funny people.

[964] I mean, on the front of your book, it says, a comedy genius.

[965] I didn't write that by the way.

[966] Yes, you did.

[967] It's interesting.

[968] I just find it interesting as an observation.

[969] that the thing that people criticised you for created a quality in you, which is, seems to be, from my very naive assumption, like critical now to your success and why people are so fond of you.

[970] Is that an accurate assessment?

[971] It's spot on.

[972] You know, I sort of, I, my kind of like humour and being able to laugh at myself was a self -defense mechanism where people were trying to take the mick out of me. I would take the mick out of myself in a better way than they were about to do.

[973] so that makes me self -deprecating and I think that is very uncommon for a footballer to be self -deprecating it was groundbreaking and I don't think it should be but let's be honest I think it was a bit not many players that play for England let their guard down at any point or want to criticise themselves or have a laugh at themselves and that is something maybe that has set me apart that I'm aware of from other players and that is not me being contrived or trying to force an agenda.

[974] I think anyone who has played with me over the course of 20 years will say to you this is the person that they knew in the dressing room but I think I'm able to showcase that a little bit more by being less guarded because I haven't got a football club telling me to not talk too much or you know you're a footballer shut up up, like, now I can do whatever I like.

[975] And fortunately, I've been in a position where, you know, I suppose the general public or fans that are buying into what I'm doing are enjoying it.

[976] And, you know, for as long as they are enjoying it, I'll continue to do it.

[977] And when they're not, I'll fuck off.

[978] It reminds me a lot of Lewis Capaldi, who I sat with, where he just seems to just be doing whatever the fuck he wants to do.

[979] Yeah, well, like, I've got to hire him.

[980] much you know like he's the kind of thing that i you know i love to see like and i watched it recently i think he was on jonathan ross and uh oh he was brilliant like he's hilarious and he looks like he wants he's enjoying what he's doing and um you know he's himself and i think that that is what i'm doing thankfully um people are in hopefully enjoying it 100 % they are enjoying it i think that's a huge understatement and it seems to be the case from the people i've sat here with on this podcast, it seems to be the case that those that are themselves that are able to build a life based on being themselves are living the most sustainable and fulfilling lives.

[981] It's fucking difficult not being yourself for a long period of time, and it's not fun, right?

[982] Yeah, well, you can't get tripped up if you're being yourself.

[983] Yeah.

[984] You can't, the guard never slips, does it?

[985] But it feels like a risk to some people.

[986] You can see why.

[987] Yeah, it's a risk if I would like you.

[988] No, you're right.

[989] You're actually right.

[990] It's only at risk if you're a dick at it.

[991] No, you're completely right.

[992] Be someone else if you want to know that.

[993] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to ask it for.

[994] And the question that's been left for you is what moment has caused you to be the most afraid in your life?

[995] It's difficult.

[996] I think I've been in situations where, none of this matters does it let's be honest right i'm thinking about football terms i was thinking straight away i went to like what about when i didn't score when i did this when i wasn't going to make it as a football like all like none of that matters does it um your family's the most important thing and when you have a a scare personally or your one of your close people your wife or your kids has an issue.

[997] That is when you're the most scared that you'll ever be.

[998] And I think, you know, I've had those worries.

[999] And that's when you really realize what's important.

[1000] Obviously, when the, you know, the pandemic and, you know, we were in lockdown and that kind of thing.

[1001] And you realize actually none of it matters, you know, like it was just, It was, I had my family and we were fortunate, obviously, to be in a nice house.

[1002] And I just thought, you know, we are incredibly lucky, even if we don't have, if we don't have anything, we've got each other, you know, and that, I think that was, I think it's the most scared when someone, when you have a scare with someone close to you, which we have had.

[1003] And you get through that.

[1004] That's the most scared of it.

[1005] That's exactly what came to mind for me. It was when, I think I must have been 10 and my mum.

[1006] called me and told me I believe she called me and told me she had cancer in her breast because she had found a lump and then it transpired it was a cyst, it was fine but that period of like several days believing that my mum's gonna die when I'm 10 nothing, I mean everything peels in comparison and you realize that fuck all matters as you said yeah like it's so weird like I went to like football then like straight away then you actually think oh no minute that doesn't matter is it I'm most scared I've been is when you have a scare in the family without doubt.

[1007] Peter, thank you.

[1008] Thank you for so many reasons.

[1009] Thank you for inspiring me in this podcast.

[1010] You've been a big inspiration for us.

[1011] You know, like the production is one thing.

[1012] I know you've commented on the production before, but what you have is something that's so, like, authentic and brilliant.

[1013] And that's the impossible thing to create.

[1014] To find, like, an authentic formula that's resonant with the audience that you have and give so much to them, it's like, it's a lot.

[1015] And it's not fucking easy.

[1016] And, you know, I watched your playing career.

[1017] I've watched, you know, I've watched you play in all the clubs you've played in.

[1018] The thing that I'm like, that is fucking unbelievable is actually what you've been able to do since, you know, and that says a lot because you got to Champions League finals and you paid for the best clubs in the land.

[1019] But watching what you've done since, I think, is even tougher.

[1020] That's just my perspective and I've taken a huge amount of inspiration from that.

[1021] Your book is amazing.

[1022] Crouch first is obviously going to be amazing because you guys just have a magic that is like impossible to replicate.

[1023] And so you got, you know, it's fun to watch you guys.

[1024] It's really, really fun to watch your journey and to not know where it's going to go.

[1025] I mean, like, Prince William walking in, you're in this pub toilet.

[1026] Like, you know, I just don't, it's fucking brilliant.

[1027] And it's, it's perfectly authentically brilliant.

[1028] So thank you for coming and doing this.

[1029] It's a huge compliment to us that you'd come and do it.

[1030] And it's been great to chatting to you and meeting you.

[1031] No, my pleasure.

[1032] Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

[1033] Oh, I'm just laughing because I like smiling.

[1034] I have enjoyed it.

[1035] No, I genuinely haven't enjoyed it.

[1036] And it's nice to see.

[1037] I'm not a professional set -up.

[1038] Thank you so much.

[1039] Thank you.

[1040] We're done.