426 - Hell Never

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hartstark.

[3] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[4] Doddy's in the house.

[5] That's Mimi.

[6] Oh.

[7] How dare you, Karen?

[8] I just saw a tail going like this.

[9] I didn't see a face.

[10] Your favorite, Mimi.

[11] Meamy.

[12] Angry Mimi.

[13] Since our last episode, I think everything is changing.

[14] Yeah.

[15] How are you?

[16] Everything in the world.

[17] You going through some existential shit?

[18] No, I'm talking about the world.

[19] the world is going through some existential shit.

[20] Yeah.

[21] Nothing to be surprised by.

[22] Well, but as a Gen Xer, who is from a culture of people in a time where being political was not cool or and it was kind of frowned upon, watching college students rise up in this way against not only genocide, but against basically kind of everything.

[23] Like it is, it just gives me the chills.

[24] It's unbelievable.

[25] It's like rising up against ignoring and or funding gender side, one would say.

[26] Yes.

[27] And then getting just trampled for it.

[28] Did you see the thing where there's a refugee encampment in Gaza and they wrote like, thank you, Columbia students.

[29] No. They wrote all these messages in England.

[30] saying like thank you to these 19 year olds who are just like holding their own in the face of, I mean, it's just so it's so fucking cool.

[31] It is.

[32] I'm at the very end of a, not post -apocalyptic, like current apocalyptic.

[33] How does that sound?

[34] Plain apocalyptic.

[35] Yeah, just like it's, it's crappening right now kind of thing.

[36] And so I'm feeling a little like I can't stomach, a lot of the news because the apocalyptic stuff in this book isn't that far -fetched, you know, it takes place in like 20 -90, so it's like - Based on reality.

[37] Yeah, yeah.

[38] It's happening.

[39] Yes.

[40] So that's rough.

[41] You didn't say it was a book at first, so I'm just like, what?

[42] Where are you?

[43] Where are you?

[44] What's happening with you?

[45] Well, what I really love to is then it's like student protests combining with now there's going to be a women's strike on June 24th.

[46] There's like a, it's time to rise up.

[47] It's time to rise up.

[48] Yeah.

[49] What a vibe.

[50] I love it.

[51] The time has come.

[52] Women's strike.

[53] On June 24th, if you can, don't go to work.

[54] Don't do anything.

[55] As a woman, you show people how valuable women are and the fact that we have to fight to have the same bodily autonomy as men in 2024 is disgusting and ridiculous.

[56] Yeah.

[57] And it needs to be changed immediately.

[58] And if you can't not work wear a red shirt and stand up, we have to do something.

[59] Something has to change.

[60] I love that.

[61] Take inspiration from college students all across this nation.

[62] Stand up.

[63] Oh, I wanted to tell you.

[64] So there's this four -part synon, the cult synonon documentary on HBO.

[65] Yeah.

[66] Vince and I've been watching.

[67] It's great.

[68] And the beginning of it, the beginning of Synodon, what became a cult, was in Los Angeles in the 60s as kind of like a drug rehab type of place.

[69] And so I was like, I wonder if my parents ever went to Sinanon because they were in L .A. You know, they're from L .A. and they were like teenagers at the time.

[70] So I text my mom first being like, if anyone joined a cult, it's my mom.

[71] And she was like, no, no, I heard about it.

[72] ever went.

[73] Because they had like a house in Santa Monica that was like the hangout house.

[74] It sounded freaking amazing.

[75] And so then I text my dad and I was like, maybe one of my uncles went or something.

[76] And my dad was like, yeah, I went there a few times.

[77] My dad went to fucking synodon.

[78] Hell yeah.

[79] Like, because it was a hipster.

[80] I mean, when I covered this, we talked about it.

[81] Yes.

[82] Oh, I have the episode number that you covered.

[83] You covered Synanon in episode 132.

[84] It's called awful peanut.

[85] I wonder why.

[86] I have no idea.

[87] Oh, and my dad told me he's fine with me sharing the story, by the way.

[88] But he said he went because he went to AA meetings there.

[89] Yeah.

[90] And I asked him if he ever met the, you know, the psycho leader and saw the yelling circles that they had.

[91] Because I talk about that in the cult.

[92] And he's like, I watched it once and it was very uncomfortable.

[93] But otherwise, it was just like regular AA meetings.

[94] Marty witnessed that like the, the, inception of synon, which is incredible because, like, Marty witnesses the inception and then cut to, like, six -year -old me in the back of my parents' car watching the synon people.

[95] By that point, they were wearing all white robes with shaved heads riding their bikes down country roads.

[96] So, like, in the middle of truly nowhere, here's just some people with shaved heads who are like, it was so intense.

[97] You got to watch the documentary.

[98] There's so much footage of that time.

[99] That is just like, and seeing how it slowly became inescapable is so interesting.

[100] Also, the reason he stopped going is because he was dating my mom at the time.

[101] They were in college and she was worried that he was going to meet someone, a hot lady.

[102] At synonon.

[103] At an AA meeting, which is like, okay, that shows you where I get my codependence from, for sure.

[104] Well, and also didn't, but didn't they use, like, beautiful women to get them to come?

[105] This, It made it like the cool place to go to A .A. He said that and then he said, I mean, there was a beautiful older lady there when I, and then she was beautiful, but I left.

[106] I was like, okay, so she was right.

[107] My mom was right.

[108] She was right.

[109] But yeah, but vibes count too.

[110] And the vibe was way off, I'm sure, in that place.

[111] Also, it's just so fascinating because a lot of the things that they developed by that guy and in that group are the things that were based on these, those horrible schools like the Elon school.

[112] The stuff we've talked about about the kidnapping and taking your kid to like, we're going to make it all okay schools.

[113] Those are all people that like kind of stole it from that.

[114] We'll just sit you in a chair and scream at you.

[115] This is what's best.

[116] It's so, the kid part is really hard to watch because it just breaks my fucking heart so much.

[117] But this is why you need to ask your parents the craziest thing that happened to them when they were younger, you know, because they might be hiding the fact that they went to a cult before it was a cult.

[118] Marty, Marty.

[119] Yeah, I went through.

[120] I kind of audited some classes there.

[121] I feel like he'd be way too chill to join a cold.

[122] He'd just be like, can we all calm down, please?

[123] Let's like a nap.

[124] The second they're like, Marty, shave your head.

[125] He's like, I've got to go.

[126] Thank you so much for everything.

[127] That is good.

[128] That's all I have this week.

[129] What about you?

[130] No, I got nothing.

[131] But we do have a network where we can talk about the highlights.

[132] Want to do that instead?

[133] Yeah.

[134] Let's do it.

[135] We have a podcast network.

[136] It's called Exactly Right Media.

[137] Hey, here are some highlights.

[138] Hey, there's a new episode at Memafem animated on the exactly where YouTube channel called Box City from Minisode 366.

[139] It's very funny.

[140] Michelle Boutot and Jordan Carlos are joined on adulting by comedian Lisa Trager, co -host of That's Messed Up and SVU podcast.

[141] She's so funny.

[142] She's so funny.

[143] And the final episode of The Butterfly King is out now.

[144] Becky Milligan finally gets to the truth about the mysterious death of King Boris, binge the whole series now.

[145] The Butterfly King is such an incredible limited series that Blanchard House made, basically for us and with us, and we love it so much.

[146] So please give it a listen.

[147] The Unburied Bones, Kate Winkler -Dawson and Paul Holes cover The Servant Girl Annihilator, an unidentified serial killer who preyed on the city of Austin, Texas in the 1880s.

[148] Crazy story.

[149] And also on a lighter note, we really apologize.

[150] We underestimated how much you would all love our new hot dog merch.

[151] So Aaron Brown, he's in charge of all of that is working on restocking.

[152] All of those items as soon as possible.

[153] But please, in the meantime, go look at the My Favorite Murder merch store.

[154] There's a new SSDGM muscle shirt in there for summertime.

[155] There's a bunch of stuff to look at.

[156] And then you can also, you know, get ready for your hot dog merch when it's back.

[157] I love it.

[158] I already ordered one for me, Ann Van.

[159] Love it.

[160] It's like epic.

[161] Hot Dog Summer instead of Hot Girl Summer.

[162] Am I right?

[163] Am I right?

[164] Hell yeah.

[165] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[166] Absolutely.

[167] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[168] Exactly.

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[182] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

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[184] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[185] Goodbye.

[186] Am I first?

[187] Yeah, you're first.

[188] Okay.

[189] Well, look, I hate to tell you this, but I'm about to do a classic cold case.

[190] It's one of those stories that you always see on the threads.

[191] of like what's a cold case that should have been solved by now or a cold case that has some weird details in it because this one does.

[192] And yet it hasn't been solved.

[193] It should and it could.

[194] So I'm going to cover the unsolved murder of Donna Dahl.

[195] The main sources used in today's story include an article from Northern Star by Stuart Warren, an article from Medium by Fatim Hamraj, and an article from the Chicago Tribune by Angie Levantis, Lorgos, and Becky Schleckerman.

[196] And all the other sources are listed in the show notes.

[197] So just a little background on Donna Dahl.

[198] She's born in 1949 and raised in Brookfield, Illinois.

[199] She is bright, hardworking, and she is very responsible because she has to be as the eldest of four children.

[200] It's that thing where I think, especially back in the day, the eldest child became like a surrogate parent and was expected to essentially parent the younger kids.

[201] Especially the oldest sister.

[202] Right.

[203] Oh, right.

[204] It was a given.

[205] You didn't even get to choose.

[206] No. I can't imagine that life where it's just like all she, she had these chores.

[207] She had to babysit.

[208] Even her friends were like, she always had like chores to do.

[209] She could never hang out.

[210] But she doesn't let that get in the way of her academic achievements.

[211] She is super smart.

[212] She gets good grades.

[213] She's a member of the National Honor Society.

[214] her dream is to become a Russian language teacher, which is like, that sounds hard.

[215] Oh, my God.

[216] I think Russian is one of the hardest languages, isn't it?

[217] Let's say yes.

[218] It's got to be.

[219] Backwards ours and stuff.

[220] She is described by her peers as never wild, innocent.

[221] When she graduates from her local high school in 1967, she ranks 15th in her class.

[222] Oh, wow.

[223] Which is wild.

[224] So how many kids were in my class?

[225] Because I was the last one.

[226] I was ranked the last.

[227] I have to have been.

[228] I have to have been.

[229] So that's impressive.

[230] She gets a scholarship to Northern Illinois University in DeKalb.

[231] It's a farm town.

[232] It's 74 miles west of Chicago.

[233] So you think it's close to Chicago.

[234] Maybe it's metropolitan.

[235] It's not.

[236] It is rural at the time.

[237] Cornfields.

[238] And everyone thinks of it as a safe place, even though it's a college town.

[239] By the fall semester of her senior year, college, where she's majoring in Russian, it's 1970, she's 21 years old, and she is deep in her honor studies while also working part -time at the Swen -Parsons Library on the campus.

[240] But she also has a busy social life.

[241] I think when she moved away to college, suddenly, she had less responsibilities than she, you know what I mean?

[242] It's like...

[243] Imagine.

[244] Yeah, she's like finally breaking free.

[245] Yeah, I have free time.

[246] I'm a college student.

[247] Like, I just, I think she like flourished and had a life of her own there.

[248] And so, So she is able to make more friends.

[249] She goes to party.

[250] She goes on dates for the first time.

[251] In fact, she has her first boyfriend, a graduate student at NIU, studying math named Charles.

[252] I kind of don't want to add his last name.

[253] You can find it anywhere, but he's a suspect, obviously, he's a boyfriend, but he was never charged.

[254] And he's still living and working out there in the world.

[255] It feels a little weird to say his last name.

[256] What do you think?

[257] Yeah, you can just say her boyfriend, Charles.

[258] Yeah, okay, her boyfriend Charles.

[259] But Donna's childhood best friend, Donna Charlotte, doesn't really like Charles.

[260] I'm going to call her Donna Charlotte because they're both named Donna, and that's confusing.

[261] So Donna Charlotte often describes Charles as controlling and possessive, and she wants better for her friend.

[262] And so when Donna returns from a summer -long foreign language program in the summer of 1970 and has a new love interest, her friend Donna Charlotte is really happy for her.

[263] this man is older and there's not much known about him he's either still married or recently divorced so while her friend approves of her new partner her parents aren't really thrilled about it so we don't know a lot about him in any case donna breaks things off with charles for this new guy that she met and it doesn't sit well with charles so in the fall of 1970 donna and her best friend donna charlotte are going to hang out and catch up after they've both been busy doing their own things.

[264] So Donna Charlotte is going to pick up Donna from her job at the library once her shift ends at 10 p .m. on Friday, October 2nd, 1970, so they can grab coffee and go for a walk.

[265] Well, the day comes, Donna Charlotte arrives at the library and a little after 10 as planned.

[266] She waits about 20 minutes for her friend, but Donna never shows.

[267] And she just figures something must have come up or that Donna forgot, you know, about their plans.

[268] And so So she drives off without thinking twice about it.

[269] But two more days go by and no one has seen Donna.

[270] Her house parents, which are basically like the assistance of the dorm house, you know, RAs, call the DeKalb Police on Sunday, October 4th, 1970 at 1130 p .m. And report Donna missing.

[271] So it's been two days, which we all know is not good.

[272] Yeah.

[273] To wait that long.

[274] So police go and search Donna's room.

[275] they find her clothes, her suitcase, and her allergy medication, which is a total necessity for Donna.

[276] It's all still there.

[277] There's also a paycheck from her library job, left uncashed.

[278] And it's figured out that she probably couldn't have more than $10 on her wherever she is.

[279] And it's unlike Donna to leave without a warning.

[280] So what other police do?

[281] They figure she left to go hang out with her boyfriend, as they do, despite her not having brought anything, which is not how you go visit anyone.

[282] I mean, everybody talk, we all talk about it all the time, but it's like the runaway built -in excuse for police to not have to look into things is so frustrating.

[283] In hindsight, it's like, this is so egregiously lazy.

[284] Yeah, absolutely.

[285] So police just chucked the whole thing up to a secret weekend meet up with her boyfriend.

[286] The end.

[287] Another day goes by, and then another, Donna misses her little sister, Becky's 10th birthday, party back home in Brookfield.

[288] She misses classes, which is totally unlike her.

[289] And so the doll family is sick with worry, as are all of Donna's friends, including her now ex -boyfriend Charles.

[290] He organizes a search party to look for her in all the areas surrounding campus.

[291] So he's the one who's like, this isn't normal.

[292] Yeah.

[293] And organizes a search party.

[294] But no sign of Donna turns up.

[295] Okay.

[296] So then at about 8 .30 p .m. on October 11th, 1970, three local teens are on their way to a party and I guess maybe this is a normal rural thing, but they have alcohol stashes like in the fields, like in cornfields, they'll be like, here's where we keep all our alcohol, we grab it on the way to the party.

[297] Yeah.

[298] Well, because you'd get someone, you'd probably what we'd call tap shoulder at a 7 -Eleven, get some old weirdo to buy you your liquor, but then you can't put it in your parents' refrigerator.

[299] Right.

[300] can't like, right?

[301] So you have to put it somewhere where you won't get caught.

[302] Totally, totally.

[303] So they stop at their secret booze dash to pick up beer.

[304] It's a remote part of a cornfield in DeKal, but just over a mile west of NIU's campus.

[305] And one of the teens, a first -year college student hops out of a station wagon, runs into the tall grass growing from the ditch along the side of the road to grab the beer.

[306] And instead, he finds the body of a woman laying on her back beneath a tree.

[307] He, of course, he's with other people.

[308] He, like, demands that they don't look.

[309] He, like, saved them from having to see this, which is, you know, heroic.

[310] Yeah.

[311] He hops back in the car and they drive straight to the police department to report what they found.

[312] Police follow the kids back and find the body.

[313] And so at 3 a .m., Charles, the ex -boyfriend, gets a word about police finding a body.

[314] He's the one to come and identify 21 -year -old Donna doll and she's dead.

[315] Oh.

[316] So here's a couple of weird things.

[317] So Donna's body is found fully clothed, except her shoes aren't there and her purse isn't there and they're never found.

[318] Her trench coat isn't found either.

[319] However, she is in a jacket.

[320] It's not hers.

[321] Like just whose fucking jacket was that, you know?

[322] I find little clues like that should have had someone come forward, but they don't, you know?

[323] Well, also it tells you that there was something else, a bunch of other things perhaps that happened in between.

[324] It wasn't just this linear kind of thing, which is also upsetting to think about.

[325] Yeah.

[326] Donna's body shows no signs of a struggle or any kind of violent altercation that indicates to them that she probably knew the killer, but I don't know how if someone holds a gun to your head, I'm not going to fight.

[327] You know what I mean?

[328] It doesn't mean that.

[329] It's the same thing when they're like, she opened her front door to a stranger.

[330] She would never do that.

[331] People do that.

[332] It's, it happens.

[333] Especially when strangers have uniforms, you know, things that you're like, oh, this is a male man. This is trustworthy, whoever.

[334] Totally.

[335] According to the pathologist, Donna was most likely suffocated with either a pillowcase or a plastic bag.

[336] There are, however, no fibers found in her airways, which is unusual because that's actually an indicator of death by suffocation.

[337] So that part strange as well.

[338] Records at the library show Donna had clocked out of work at 9 .59 on October 2nd, 1970.

[339] And you remember her friend was there at 10 o 'clock.

[340] So she just missed something by minutes.

[341] And police find mysterious substances present in her toxicology report, although the science at the time isn't able to properly identify these substances.

[342] And it's like, can we please fucking test those now?

[343] But the other part that's really weird is what pathologists find in Donna's stomach.

[344] Somehow she had consumed somewhere between five to six pounds of potatoes before her death.

[345] What?

[346] Uh -huh.

[347] And for context, one large russet potato weighs roughly one pound.

[348] So that would be five to six large russet potatoes, which totally gives me the movie seven vibes.

[349] Right.

[350] Yeah.

[351] Yeah.

[352] Some very mentally ill person had some strange plot in their head or, I mean, God, that's weird.

[353] That's really bizarre detail.

[354] Yeah.

[355] And then also, like, the fact that they could.

[356] have missed back then, you know, a needle mark or something that had shown.

[357] I don't know.

[358] Like, just the toxicology stuff is weird to me that they think she didn't fight back because she knew the person.

[359] That's just so, it's such a weird assumption.

[360] I don't know.

[361] Well, also, when it could be anything, then all assumptions are just that, right?

[362] It's like, what can you actually?

[363] Because the first thing I think of is there's somebody hiding in the library as she's closing it.

[364] Totally.

[365] And then she's surprised by someone, maybe someone she's recognized from library and doesn't think, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

[366] Did I close down with you?

[367] And then it turns.

[368] But, God.

[369] And also, like, she clocked out.

[370] So someone was waiting outside for her.

[371] She clocked out.

[372] And a minute later, her friend was waiting for her and didn't see anything.

[373] So something happened right then.

[374] That was so quick.

[375] So, yeah.

[376] Interestingly, the search party that Donna's exed.

[377] Charles had arranged came just a quarter mile short of where Donna's body was finally found.

[378] And the site where Donna's body was found is very close to Charles's apartment building.

[379] So that does seem like one of those things where it's like he's trying to involve himself.

[380] Yeah.

[381] But I think wouldn't he have stumbled upon the body?

[382] Maybe he just hadn't done it yet.

[383] Maybe he was keeping them away from the body.

[384] Right.

[385] Right.

[386] They were so close and they didn't find it.

[387] Right.

[388] Yeah.

[389] That's a good point.

[390] So these facts, coupled with Charles's reportedly possessive behavior and his being upset over being dumped by Donna, Mark Charles as the police's prime suspect.

[391] But the day after Charles is named a suspect, he attempts to take his own life.

[392] So they're like, okay, is he doing this because he feels guilty having killed Donna or is he maybe just upset that the woman he loves died?

[393] It's, you know, one of those things.

[394] And after the attempt on his own life, Charles is admitted into the University Health Services Hospital.

[395] And even before he checks out, he retains a lawyer for himself named Editrich.

[396] On October 20th, 1970, the lawyer puts out a statement via the DeKalb Chronicle on Charles's behalf saying Charles has been, quote, quite emotionally disturbed, end quote, by Donna's death, but that he's, quote, been extremely cooperative with police working 20 out of 24 hours with them, end quote.

[397] I don't know.

[398] Does that mean they've just questioned him that long?

[399] I don't know.

[400] And he said that he even offered to take a polygraph test.

[401] Through all their efforts in conversation with Charles, police never get enough evidence to charge him with Donna's murder.

[402] And this unnamed boyfriend in Pennsylvania is also a question.

[403] And he tells police he hasn't spoken to Donna in days and that he was nowhere near DeKalb at the time of the murder.

[404] And so police quickly dropped him as a suspect.

[405] So Donna lived a pretty quiet life.

[406] She only had two love interests.

[407] They were both ruled out as suspects.

[408] or at least they don't have enough evidence to charge either of them.

[409] And the police prospects of solving her case dry up and the case goes cold.

[410] So the ex -boyfriend Charles moves on with his life.

[411] When anyone tries to get in contact with him for like, you know, a news story about it, he always just says no comment, which is his right to do.

[412] Donna's friends and family have sadly never gotten the answers they so desperately crave.

[413] But in 2010, DeKalb County Sheriff Roger Scott tells the Chicago.

[414] Tribune, that the case remains open, quote, with the hopes that somewhere along the line, something will materialize that will make a difference, end quote.

[415] And that is the story of the strange unsolved murder of Donna Dahl.

[416] Whoa.

[417] I know you hate it.

[418] I know you hate it.

[419] Well, also, I don't know why, but that felt fast.

[420] And so it's just like, and what?

[421] Did something happened recently?

[422] Or like, that's just sitting there.

[423] It's just sitting there waiting for some other thing to turn up to help solve it.

[424] And there's these like little clues that make you think, like, oh, somewhere in these little, somewhere in here in these little clues is the answer.

[425] And everything will be explained, like, whose jacket was she wearing?

[426] And what's the deal with the potatoes?

[427] And you'll finally figure it out, you know?

[428] And like, I don't know.

[429] It's just these kind of cases drive me fucking crazy.

[430] Yeah.

[431] Wow.

[432] And so many of these cold cases feel like we're getting to a point.

[433] in history where they could be solved.

[434] You know, I know it's not an easy thing to do.

[435] Their funds aren't there, but...

[436] The funds are there.

[437] They're not using them for what they need to be using them for.

[438] I'll fucking say it again.

[439] But like when you said, oh, they should test that now.

[440] It's like, but do they have...

[441] Do they still have this evidence?

[442] Do they still have the materials?

[443] Like, it requires that kind of like pristine, what's the word for it?

[444] Like, archival...

[445] Evidence collecting?

[446] Yeah.

[447] Yeah.

[448] archival evidence that like not every it's just so frustrating i know the worst or when it's like there was a fire in the 80s that destroyed the evidence room or whatever it is there was a flood that destroyed all the evidence from before 1990 or they destroyed all evidence and anything that happened when they moved to a new fucking facility like that shit happens all the time yeah there should be some sort of a federal law passed about cold cases.

[449] And I don't know what it should be.

[450] And I certainly can't make it up.

[451] But it's like we should start acting like cold cases are still important police work that has to get taken care of.

[452] Yeah.

[453] Did you see a dude last week confessed on his deathbed to a case from 2000 that he killed a mother and her like 10 year old daughter on his deathbed?

[454] Yeah.

[455] Wow.

[456] Maybe we'll get more of those.

[457] I mean, this is what...

[458] You like this frustrating feeling.

[459] That's what it is.

[460] You like it.

[461] I like a mystery.

[462] I do.

[463] I mean, I don't like it.

[464] I want to solve it.

[465] I just think the answer's there and it drives me crazy that I can't find.

[466] I become fixated when I think the answer's there.

[467] And it's incredibly satisfying when that case, you know, like you just said that the deathbed confession or something is somebody goes through it or there's a new detective.

[468] that actually gets back into it and re -questions people.

[469] The victims deserve to have justice and their killer answer for their crime.

[470] So I just am always thinking about those cases.

[471] Yeah.

[472] Well, good.

[473] Thank you for that.

[474] That was good.

[475] Thank you.

[476] Let's take a 180 -degree turn.

[477] Please.

[478] But towards something equally terrible, but just in a different way.

[479] Okay.

[480] Today I'm going to tell you all about the infamous air disaster that changed the course of air travel as we know it.

[481] It's March of 1936 and most of the world is unaware that World War II is on the horizon.

[482] Hitler's hell -bent on making Germany a global fascist superpower and because of this, the German engineered rigid airship or dirigible called LZ -129 Hindenburg, which is one of the first passenger aircrafts capable of flying across the Atlantic Ocean becomes the ultimate symbol of German might.

[483] It's an 808 feet long, 135 feet in diameter.

[484] It's referred to as the Titanic of the sky.

[485] Oh dear.

[486] Which is a little bit kind of ominous.

[487] Yeah.

[488] And they call it that because it's almost the same length that the Titanic was 882 feet.

[489] So it's like, you know, this is also gigantic.

[490] But the comparison would turn out to be more apt than anyone could have ever guessed, this is the story of the Hindenburg disaster.

[491] Fuck, yeah.

[492] Right?

[493] How big is that?

[494] How many football fields?

[495] Is that at least one, that's a one football field size, right?

[496] It's the size of a ship.

[497] Like 800.

[498] It's a ship's length.

[499] That's a large flying machine.

[500] That's got to be two and a half football fields.

[501] I have no idea.

[502] If you knew how many feet were in a yard, we could maybe do it that way.

[503] If I know how many yards we're in a football field.

[504] If we watch football, whatever, except for when my dad forces me to.

[505] The main sources for today's story are an essay from airships .net, your favorite website and mine, and an article from Smithsonian Magazine by Donovan Webster, and all the rest of our sources are in our show notes.

[506] Please go look if you're interested in reading more about this.

[507] Okay, first I'm going to talk to you about deridibles.

[508] Okay.

[509] Finally.

[510] Which I think it is this part of history that is so fascinating where it's like for a little while, people thought this would be the way we're going to get around.

[511] It works like this so we can do it like this.

[512] There's a dirigible docking station on top of the, or there was on the top of the Empire State Building.

[513] Uh -huh.

[514] What's a dirigible?

[515] Will you tell me?

[516] A derigible is the Hindenburg.

[517] It's a big rigid airship.

[518] Yes, I will tell you about it.

[519] like it's like a blimp kind of yes there are a type of aircraft that fly using a contained gas like helium or hydrogen different from blimps in that a dirigible or a rigid airship has a skeletal structure that holds the balloon like shape rather than the shape coming when the balloon is inflated which is what a blimp is okay so basically it's like it has a built structure like a little skeleton inside there that keeps that shape i'll describe all this to you I wish you would.

[520] Thank you.

[521] Sorry.

[522] Because I'm answering you like I know, and I absolutely do not.

[523] So in rigid airships or dirigible, the gas is stored in smaller balloons or cells that line the airship's interior.

[524] And that creates more space for passenger cabins, dining rooms, and other, like, rooms that you would find in a commercial airship.

[525] And so the flagship brand of rigid airships is the Zeppelin, which was invented by Jersey.

[526] German general and inventor Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin for his company, Luft Schifau, Zeppelin.

[527] And that name becomes so synonymous with airship travel that most people refer to rigid airships as Zeplans, even though they were crafted by many other companies, much in the same way as we call hot tubs jacuzis because of the great jacuzzi family.

[528] That's right.

[529] Or Q -tips, cotton swabs.

[530] Right.

[531] I'm going to think of seven more examples.

[532] there you go tissues so the first zeppelin the lz1 takes its inaugural flight in the year 1900 wow yeah by the time zeppelin makes the lz3 six years later it performs well enough to attract interests from the german army so together zeppelin and those army officials improve the engineering and add features like 24 hour flight capability during one test in 1908 a storm causes the LZ4 to crash and burn in front of dozens of curious spectators.

[533] But instead of that turning the public off to airship travel, German citizens becomes really invested and enthusiastic about getting it right.

[534] So they start donating tons of their own money to the Zeppelin Company to keep up the work so that they keep developing.

[535] So now other countries like England and France want to get in on the rigid airship game.

[536] So they tried their hands at crafting their own airships.

[537] During World War I, both the German army and the British Royal Navy use derogables in combat.

[538] They don't actually make any significant contributions in battle per se, but they use them.

[539] They're not very stealth, I would think.

[540] Now I'm just kind of like kind of slow.

[541] So the Germans would eventually come to find the real value of airships is in their commercial use.

[542] So by 1925, passengers are able to take domestic Zeppelin flights in Germany, but the chairman of Luftschiffbao Zeppelin, a man named Dr. Hugo Echner, he set his sights on international passenger travel.

[543] He served in the German army, and then he got work as a journalist.

[544] And while he was writing a story about the LZ1 and the LZ2, Dr. Echiner got so interested in these airships that he actually joined the Zeppelin Company in 1908.

[545] Then in 1911, he became an airship captain, and he eventually worked his way up to a chairman position, planning to use his newfound power to expand the reach and the capabilities of airship.

[546] So he was like a big Zeppelin nerd.

[547] So with funding from the public and the German government, Leffschiff -Bow Zeppelin develops the LZ -127 Graf Zeppelin, which flies for the first time on September 18th, 1928.

[548] And the Graf Zeppelin makes a trip from Germany to South America, which is the first journey of its kind with passengers aboard.

[549] Wow.

[550] How scared must those passengers have been the entire fucking time?

[551] The level of trust and kind of like, I believe in the future and whatever you guys are doing.

[552] Yeah.

[553] So the U .S. is also working on airships of their own because we're never too, be outdone.

[554] In the early 1920s, the U .S. establishes a dirigible airfield at the Lakehurst Naval Air Station in New Jersey, but they take a slightly different approach in their design.

[555] They use helium as their buoyant gas instead of hydrogen.

[556] Because hydrogen is far cheaper to produce and lighter than helium, the only drawback is hydrogen is highly flammable and helium is not.

[557] So noting those safety concerns, the Germans also want to use helium in their Zeppelins, but wouldn't you know it, the U .S. now has a monopoly on helium as they pass the Helium Control Act of 1925 in order to ban its exports.

[558] So their business people, they see it coming, they know how to do it.

[559] So now the Germans have no other choice, and they have to stick to hydrogen as they construct their greatest Zeppelin model yet, the LZ -129, Hindenburg.

[560] This ship is named in honor of the late former German president and field marshal Paul von Hindenberg.

[561] And it's completed in 1936.

[562] So there's two levels on this airship.

[563] The A deck, which houses 25 cramped two passenger cabins and a communal dining room, a writing room, and a lounge.

[564] And then there's the B deck, and that houses all the bathrooms, the crew mess hall, and a bar.

[565] guests also have access to a sealed pressurized smoking lounge of course that can be entered through the bar through a single swiveling airlocked door again the hindenberg uses hydrogen so extra precautions have to be taken with the smoking room in case of course there's a hydrogen leak so that the sparks from the cigarettes don't ignite the entire ship and it's next to the bar so like go get ship face and then then go smoke and, you know, be silly with your cigarette like you do when you're drunk.

[566] Also, it's a time in the world where the idea of not smoking is absolutely not a consideration.

[567] No. There's just no way.

[568] No. So there are actually bar stewards who are, like, posted to make sure that no one walks out of the smoking room with a lit cigarette or a cigar in their hand.

[569] It's that important.

[570] And yet.

[571] So the Hindenberg's technology is far more advanced than any other airship on the market at the time, and this confirms Germany's lead position at the cutting edge of airship travel.

[572] But at the same time, airships in general are becoming obsolete because airplane technology is on the rise.

[573] But commercial passenger airplanes still can't cross the Atlantic Ocean, and that won't happen until June 28th of 1939, which is a Pan Am flight that finally does it.

[574] meanwhile the airship has made dozens of successful transatlantic passenger flights mostly from Germany to either Brazil or some other South American countries so I guess Germany and Brazil have long had a relationship why you keep going back and forth to Brazil we ask someone answer it'll only be a matter of time until planes can achieve the same feat but for this short window of the Hindenburg is the peak of passenger airship technology.

[575] And because it's so impressive, it draws the attention of Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels.

[576] So, yeah, on March 7, 1936, Nazi soldiers occupy the Rhineland, which is the section of Western Germany that borders France.

[577] It's supposed to be a demilitarized zone.

[578] But then Hitler writes a referendum that authorizes the re -militarization of the Rhineland and puts it to a vote for German citizens to ratify on March 29, 1936.

[579] And so to make sure that the German people actually vote the way Hitler wants, Gerbels has an idea, and that is to fly the Graf Zeppelin and the Hindenburg over Germany to drop pro -Nazi propaganda leaflets, encouraging everyone to vote yes on Hitler's occupation of the Rhineland.

[580] But when Goebbels approaches Luftschiff -Bow Zeppelin with this idea, Dr. Echner refuses.

[581] He hates Nazis.

[582] He doesn't want to help them in any way.

[583] He tries to say the Hindenburg needs more testing, that it's not ready to make the flight yet.

[584] But Goebbels makes it clear he is not asking for Echner's permission.

[585] So Echner just has to refuse, and another pilot named Captain Ernst Lehman takes over.

[586] The flight's delayed when weather conditions damage the ship, but then the ship is quickly repaired.

[587] They make the trip.

[588] The leaflets are dropped.

[589] goes Hitler's way, although at that point, the fix was probably in anyway.

[590] Then on March 31st, 1936, the Hindenburg departs on its maiden passenger voyage to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

[591] But Goebbels is still mad that Echner refused to fly the ship for the leaflet drop.

[592] So he makes Captain Lehman pilot this first flight instead of Echner.

[593] And this will be the first of 17 round -trip transatlantic flights that the Hindenberg takes in 1936, including trips to the U .S. The flights last anywhere from 53 to 78 hours when they're heading west, I know, and 43 to 61 hours when they are heading east, all of them successful.

[594] Wow.

[595] That's so long, but it's not longer than taking a ship.

[596] Yeah, and at the time, probably groundbreakingly fast, you know, for that.

[597] And you could smoke and drink the whole time.

[598] So now the Hindenburg is proven to handle long flights.

[599] So American Airlines charters it to shuttle passengers from Germany to Lake Hurst, New Jersey, so they can then catch connecting domestic American flights out of the Newark Airport.

[600] Lufschiff -Bow Zeppelin signs on for the Hindenburg to complete 10 of these round -trip flights from Frankfurt, Germany to Lake Hurst, New Jersey over the course of 1937.

[601] And the first one of these flights is scheduled to depart from Frankfurt on May 3, 1937 at 7 .16 p .m. There are 36 civilian passengers aboard and 61 crew members.

[602] And while the 36 passengers make up only half the Hindenburg's 70 passenger capacity, the flight back to Germany is fully booked because the coronation of King George and Queen Elizabeth is coming up.

[603] So a bunch of people are going back.

[604] to London.

[605] So the departure piloted by Captain Max Pruss goes off without a hitch.

[606] There's some strong headwinds along the way that kind of prolong the journey.

[607] Otherwise, everyone on board enjoys a smooth three -day ride over the Atlantic Ocean.

[608] That's the other thing.

[609] You're not flying over land.

[610] Like, you're just flying over vast open ocean.

[611] Yeah.

[612] That's stressful to me. I feel like that's stressful to us.

[613] Imagine people who like have never experienced what the ocean, the vast, you know, like seeing photos and seen it out the window of a plane and, oh, yeah, very brave people to be like, I want to be there, I want to see it for myself, like adventurers, I'm sure, also probably very rich.

[614] Okay, so, so as they approach the coast of basically Massachusetts, you know, near Boston, around noon of May 6, 1937, Captain Pruss gets word that some thunderstorms are moving in from the south.

[615] So he redirects the Hindenburg back out over the Atlantic so he can let the storms pass before heading back inland and south down to Lakehurst.

[616] So this idea that you're flying in a ship that if a storm comes, like you're just going to get tossed around.

[617] Yeah.

[618] And imagine the turbulence on a zeppelin.

[619] No, I'm getting nauseous just thinking about it.

[620] No, thank you.

[621] So this redirection puts the Hindenburg over Manhattan, and of course, everybody suddenly gets a surprise view of this massive airship.

[622] And it's around three o 'clock in the afternoon.

[623] Of course, it causes a huge stir.

[624] People come running out of their offices and out of their apartments and out onto the street to catch a view of it.

[625] The Hindenberg finally reaches Lakehurst around 4 .15, but the weather conditions at the airfield are still rocky.

[626] so Captain Press flies back out over the Jersey shore to wait it out.

[627] So finally, the storms pass around 622 on May 6th, and Captain Press heads back to Lakehurst for landing.

[628] So the Hindenburg reaches its landing site just after 7 p .m. Despite the delay, a small crowd of spectators have gathered to watch this landing, and there are a few news outlets that are on site to report the event.

[629] taking the wind direction into consideration, Captain Pruss initiates a wide left turn so he can properly line the airship up with its mooring mast.

[630] So that's basically a tower that allows you to dock an airship in the air with cables and wires before then slowly lowering it to the ground so passengers can get on and off.

[631] So to initiate descent, the crew releases some of the ship's hydrogen, but as they head downward, the wind changes.

[632] and Captain Press is forced to make another sharp turn, resulting in a difficult S -shaped maneuver to line the ship up with the mast.

[633] And in the midst of that, the crew has a hard time what's called trimming the ship, which means getting it to the right altitude at the right angle.

[634] Some more crewmen are sent to the bow of the ship to valve more hydrogen cells, which means release it.

[635] Then at 725, spectators on the ground, And notice the fabric above the rear fin fluttering.

[636] Others claim that they saw a small blue flame at that time.

[637] And then everyone watches in horror as the rear of the Hindenburg suddenly goes up in flames.

[638] Oh, my God.

[639] This fire just races through the airship and the airship plummets to the ground, sending flames shooting back up through the nose of the airship like a fire -breathing dragon.

[640] Wow.

[641] People scream in horror and run from the burning mass. On board, it's even more terrifying.

[642] Those lucky enough not to be in direct line of the flames can hear its muffled reverberation.

[643] The glow of the flames reaches them in what feels like a fraction of a second and forces them to jump out of the ship to the ground.

[644] Fire races to the starboard side of the ship and traps many of the passengers and crew preventing them from escape.

[645] of the 12 crew members stationed in the bow of the ship, nine are killed by the fire.

[646] A 14 -year -old boy named Werner Franz is in his cabin when the fire starts.

[647] He sees the flames, he's frozen in fear, and then miraculously, a water tank over his head bursts and puts the fire out that's all around him.

[648] He snaps out of his, like, frozen state, and he runs and actually escapes the ship.

[649] another eight -year -old boy, eight -year -old Werner Gustav donor, he and his brother are thrown out of the ship by their mother.

[650] So their mother grabs them, throws them out, she jumps out after them.

[651] She breaks her hip when she lands.

[652] All three of them have severe burns, but they survive.

[653] Oh, my God.

[654] So the people who jumped actually survived.

[655] Yeah.

[656] What the fuck.

[657] When the ship hits the ground, Captain Pruss and the rest of the crew in the control car, jump out of the windows to escape.

[658] Captain Pruss has severe burns on his face, but he still tries to go back in and rescue as many survivors as he can.

[659] He's later taken to the hospital.

[660] He survives his injuries.

[661] Captain Ernest Lehman, the pilot who flew the Hindenburg for gerbils, propaganda leaflet drop, he's also aboard.

[662] He is rushed to the hospital with his own injuries, but he actually dies at the hospital.

[663] The Hindenberg holds a total of seven million cubic feet of hydrogen, but the gas is so light that the entire 808 foot airship burns out in just over 30 seconds.

[664] Wow.

[665] And in 30 seconds, 35 people are killed.

[666] Wow.

[667] So the news of the Hindenburg disasters, of course, sweeps the nation, mostly in large part to the on -scene reporting of a 31 -year -old radio announcer named Herb Morrison.

[668] And Herb's reaction to witnessing this this scene, it's so raw and heart -wrenching that NBC radio breaks its own rules and it airs the recorded audio because at that time, news outlets usually only air live broadcasts for authenticity basically.

[669] So it's like nobody's edited this, right?

[670] It's just like real time.

[671] So families all across America gather around their radios and they hear Herb Morrison describing this awful scene, which at this point, I mean, you know, how many years later, I know what it sounds like.

[672] Of course.

[673] I've heard it.

[674] It's infamous.

[675] Yeah.

[676] And so horrible.

[677] So Morrison's describing the airship bursting into flame reach four or five hundred feet into the sky.

[678] Onlookers watch as the wreckage comes crashing to the ground.

[679] And then at one point, Morrison interrupts himself to urge the onlookers to get out of the way the blast.

[680] And then at one point, he delivers his now infamous phrase owe the humanity.

[681] So what caused such a terrible disaster?

[682] Both the U .S. and German governments launched their own official inquiries, and several theories emerge among the public.

[683] The first theory is that an engine failure within the airship could have ignited the hydrogen.

[684] Dr. Echiner, however, denies this theory.

[685] He says the heat generated from the exhaust of an engine failure would not be hot enough to ignite the hydrogen.

[686] The second theory is that a buildup of static electricity within the airship made its way to the skin of the vessel.

[687] So when the vessel came into contact with that mooring mask, wet with rain, it created a spark that triggered the fire.

[688] None of the eyewitness accounts matched that, but dim blue flame that some witnesses reported seeing more closely matches another theory, which is St. Elmo's Fire.

[689] and St. Elmo's fire is a phenomenon that occurs when weather conditions charge the air and create plasma in the air around an object.

[690] I don't know why that phrase and that like theory creeps me out so much.

[691] Right.

[692] Right.

[693] It's almost like saying an act of God.

[694] And then it's like, but what does that mean?

[695] Right.

[696] Well, it's like an act of science.

[697] It's like all these things that are kind of always there, but we don't recognize or know about them, especially.

[698] And when I say we, I mean you and I, specifically.

[699] We're like plasma, uh -uh, that's blood.

[700] So because of the stormy conditions that day, it is possible that this was the cause of the fire.

[701] But the most far out theory was that the explosion was sabotage.

[702] Because the Hindenburg had Nazi ties, anyone with anti -Nazi motivations could have wanted to destroy the vessel.

[703] One of the first people to introduce this idea is Dr. who floats it saying that there could have been a gunshot that caused the explosion.

[704] So he just heard about it.

[705] He, you know, so he's theorizing, you know, basically third person.

[706] But then when he learns the details of the fire, he dismisses his own theory.

[707] But other people hang on to the idea of sabotage, including Captain Press, because he navigated through several safe journeys aboard airships and through thunderstorms.

[708] So he has a very hard time believing the static, electricity theory.

[709] He and other suspect a passenger by the name of Joseph Sphee caused the fire.

[710] Schpie is a German acrobat and he was very anti -Nazi, anti -Hitler.

[711] And he was on the ship that day.

[712] He brought a dog with him on the flight and he kept the dog in the freight room and he frequently visited the dog by himself.

[713] He told everyone he was feeding the dog, but sabotage theorists suspect but he was actually contorting himself into interior crevices to plant incendiary devices to make the ship explode.

[714] There's no evidence to prove this.

[715] They basically kind of put it together from acrobat, anti -Nazi, and then a dog, I guess.

[716] Yeah.

[717] So these theories offer a lot of intrigue.

[718] There are two official inquiries by both the German and the U .S. governments to get to the bottom of it really happened.

[719] They both announced their findings in summer of 1937, and they both agree that the most likely cause of the fire was some form of an accidental electrical spark, either in the atmosphere or within the machinery of the airship itself.

[720] Still, no one's talking about the smoking room.

[721] Yeah.

[722] No, they're just like, there's no way it couldn't be our precious cigarettes.

[723] No. Or like someone's sneaking a cigarette and they're like somewhere they shouldn't have been, too.

[724] Seriously.

[725] Two drunks are like, yeah, my very hot.

[726] Really quick.

[727] Yeah, let's just light up.

[728] Really quick.

[729] Like, come on.

[730] So the Hindenburg disaster brings an abrupt end to the era of rigid airship travel.

[731] Zeppelin's manufacturing wings closes its doors in 1938.

[732] The frame metal from the LZ 127 Graf Zeppelin and Graf Zeppelin 2 and scrap metal from the Hindenberg are repurposed for the construction of fixed -wing airplanes for the Luftwaffe, which is not the Nazi Air Force in World War II.

[733] And then when in 1939 that P &M flight finally completes its first transatlantic flight, all rigid airship operations are done.

[734] By 1940, it's all over with.

[735] Then in 1993, the Zeppelin company is revived as the Zeppelin Luftschief Technic, GMBH, after almost 50 years of being out of commission.

[736] And they develop a new helium -based airship, the Zeppelin NT, which stands for new technology.

[737] They forge a partnership with Goodyear in 2011, replacing the old Goodyear blimps with three rigid airships.

[738] And so the first one that they make together, the wing foot one, is launched.

[739] on August 23rd, 2014, the wingfoot two and three follow soon after, and all three are still operational today.

[740] So if you see a good year blimp, it's not actually a blimp anymore.

[741] It's actually a derigible or a rigid airship.

[742] Would you ever take a flight?

[743] Never.

[744] Hell, God, no. I'll never.

[745] While a total of 35 people died in this horrible accident, 13 passengers, 21 crew members and one grounds crew member, 62 people miraculously survived.

[746] Wow.

[747] The last survivor, Werner Gustav Donor, the one who was eight years old at the time, he just passed away on November 8th, 2019.

[748] So he was the last survivor of the Hindenburg disaster.

[749] In 1968, hangar number one, the intended hangar for the Hindenburg at the the Lakehurst Naval Station gets national historic landmark status.

[750] And on May 6, 1987, a memorial at the site of the Hindenburg disaster is established to commemorate the tragedy on its 50th anniversary.

[751] A chain outlines the body of the Hindenburg where it fell, and a plaque is laid at its center.

[752] Today, visitors can take tours of both that hangar and the site of the crash that pays homage to the lives lost.

[753] and that is the story of the Hindenberg disaster.

[754] Wow.

[755] I didn't know the details of that since I was in elementary school, probably.

[756] Right.

[757] I basically only knew, oh, the humanity.

[758] I like the fire and the reporter reacting to it is kind of the only details I knew.

[759] And the video.

[760] I mean, it's not a video.

[761] It's snapshots that are all lined up to make a video probably, right?

[762] Yeah.

[763] Newsreel, I don't know.

[764] Maybe it's newsreel.

[765] It's probably newsreel.

[766] that is crazy that we have that footage yeah right wow great job do you know i once heard that the reason the band led zeppelin was named that was because they were named something else in the beginning and then a music critic said they were so bad they were going to they were going to crash like a lead zeppelin yeah they were going to go over like a lead zeppelin right yeah fuck you critic you don't know shit wow great job Thank you.

[767] That was a good one.

[768] Such a good one.

[769] That was a great one.

[770] Wait, we need to ask our listeners right now.

[771] What are you even doing?

[772] Oh, hey, what are you doing right now?

[773] What are you even doing?

[774] Hey, we now end the episode with you telling us what you're doing, what you're even doing right now.

[775] So here's a couple of them.

[776] Okay.

[777] This says, I heard the question, and I'm here to answer.

[778] I'm a third mate on merchant ships.

[779] Most days are long coastwise or ocean transits, standing watch and navigating, watching blips on radar screens, and going in a straight line more than not.

[780] So usually I'm on the bridge or ship, bobbing around in the ocean at 2 a .m., moving our things from one place to another.

[781] Wow.

[782] All right?

[783] I'm typically the only woman on the ship.

[784] So some female energy and humor is much appreciated.

[785] Thanks for keeping me company.

[786] Stay sexy and don't run a ground, Devin.

[787] Oh my God, that might be like the best view anyone ever had while listening to this podcast.

[788] You know what I mean?

[789] Don't go to the North Sea, Devin.

[790] Oh, my God.

[791] That's amazing.

[792] Okay, mine's quick.

[793] It's a little conversation back and forth on TikTok.

[794] Caitlin Preston says, hashtag, what are you even doing right now?

[795] I was grabbing samples at the wastewater plant I work at.

[796] And then Annie Marie responds and says, I work for a wastewater slash stormwater utility, too.

[797] I'm on the stormwater side.

[798] And then Caitlin responds, cool, hi, wave emoji.

[799] And that's it.

[800] Bring in murderinos together.

[801] Wastewater besties.

[802] Hi.

[803] Wastewater murderinos.

[804] Is that a thing?

[805] What are you even doing right now while you're listening?

[806] Let us know in the comment.

[807] Yes, please tell us.

[808] And thank you guys for listening.

[809] In this crazy time and place, we are all in together by some weird coincidence or it's the Matrix and here we are.

[810] Oh, it's fate.

[811] Either way, rise up, rise up, rise up, rise up.

[812] Yeah, we got this.

[813] And stay sexy.

[814] And don't get murdered.

[815] Goodbye.

[816] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[817] This has been an exactly right production.

[818] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[819] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[820] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[821] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachie.

[822] Our researchers are Marin McClashin and Ali Elkin.

[823] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[824] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[825] Goodbye.