Talib Kweli

[0] Hello, hello.

[1] I'm Dak Shepard and this is the armchair expert.

[2] Today we have a very exciting guest.

[3] He's someone I've kind of admired, looked up to from afar.

[4] I ended up kind of stalking him on Twitter and then we became chummy and he came by the attic.

[5] And it was by far one of the most stimulating guests we've had.

[6] Would you agree Monica?

[7] The most in my opinion.

[8] Yeah.

[9] It's quite an episode.

[10] To Lib is incredibly smart.

[11] He certainly bested me on many a point.

[12] And I just want to say going into this episode, you know, I try to stay out of politics, not because I'm not political or don't have opinions, but I just feel like there's tons of outlets.

[13] There's a million places you could go to hear political opinions.

[14] And this is just kind of a, I try to keep it a sanctuary away from that.

[15] With that said, it would be absolutely shameful to have Talibon, who is a social activist and not get into some of these causes that.

[16] he cares deeply about.

[17] And I do want to say I had a fear because I ended up, as you'll hear, I end up taking someone's position on an argument that's actually not my position per se.

[18] And I was quite nervous that I maybe said stuff that I was going to regret.

[19] And then Monica and I really hemmed and hawed over it.

[20] And what we ultimately did is left it all in.

[21] And so what I'm not good at doing and what Monica is always pointing out to me I need to do is I think it goes without saying that I believe certain things.

[22] And in fact, it doesn't go without saying.

[23] So as we enter into the portion of the podcast, when we get into Charles Murray, who was a guest on Sam Harris talking about his controversial book, The Bell Curve, I kind of ended up taking a position of, I don't even want to say defending, whatever, you'll hear it.

[24] The point is, is after debating to live in this episode, and it gave me pause.

[25] And I thought, am I on the wrong side of this?

[26] I need to investigate further.

[27] and then as luck would have it, the episode that's under fire, there was a follow -up episode on Sam Harris where he had Ezra Klein on.

[28] And then when I heard Ezra Klein's point of view, I have to say I have reversed my position on it.

[29] So I just want to acknowledge that my opinion has been changed by both Tulib and Ezra.

[30] And I think as I was educated more on who Charles Murray is, I don't think I could make the statement.

[31] He's not a racist the way I did in the episode you're about to hear.

[32] All that to say, just gigantic high five to qual for coming in and really educate us.

[33] And it's important to note that these are all opinions based on personal truths and facts.

[34] And so if you don't believe what he is saying as truth to yourself, that's fine.

[35] Yep.

[36] I still love Sam.

[37] So, you know, you'll hear Talib does not love Sam, and that's fine.

[38] And then the last listener warning I just want to give is we get into this debate about Charles Murray.

[39] And I go a long way before I say something that I thought would maybe be obvious.

[40] But I should have said it right at the beginning.

[41] And I just want to say it right at the beginning of this, that I do not think there is a single variation among racial groups.

[42] on intelligence.

[43] I don't think any group is more or less intelligent than another.

[44] You'll hear me say that, but it just took me a while before I threw that in there.

[45] So just I don't want you to be listening thinking, oh boy, what is he suggesting?

[46] Because I was not suggesting that.

[47] Ultimately, the reason that all this stuff was left in, because I think the much bigger message that we wanted to send wasn't the particulars of these debates, but the bigger, more important message in my mind is listen to two guys who are on opposite sides of the road talk with respect and love to one another and have a differing opinion and get up and hug each other and I just want that to be an example of it's just plenty fine for all of us to disagree and we can still love each other and not feel like you know us and them so big big setup I hope you enjoy to live well Lee.

[48] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[49] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[50] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[51] He's an armchair expert.

[52] He's an upchair expert.

[53] To Live, welcome to Armchair Expert.

[54] Thank you.

[55] This is a great name.

[56] I see you in the armchair.

[57] Like an expert.

[58] It's like a podcast.

[59] about armchairs.

[60] Well, you know, specifically I'm a no -it -all.

[61] And I make a lot of huge generalizations, but I don't go do any research.

[62] I don't gather data.

[63] I just, I'm an armchair expert.

[64] That sounds like the internet.

[65] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[66] I think this generation would really respond to what I'm doing.

[67] Yeah, I think so, too.

[68] But I've been a fan of years for a long time, and I just hit the jackpot because you happen to be in town.

[69] You don't live here.

[70] You live in New York.

[71] I do.

[72] Yeah.

[73] So I went and I saw you Saturday.

[74] No, it felt like a Saturday night for me because I have kids.

[75] Yeah.

[76] I saw you on Wednesday night.

[77] It was like adult Saturday night.

[78] I'm still fucked up from that because I go to bed at 10 o 'clock every night.

[79] And I was at your show and I was like, I was loving it.

[80] And then I was also glancing at my watch.

[81] Like, ooh, midnight.

[82] I'm at the age where when I go on after 10, my Twitter feed is filled with people saying, hey, where are you at?

[83] I got to pay the babysitter.

[84] It's like, yeah.

[85] You two are all year round, right?

[86] Yeah, I tour a lot.

[87] Like how many days a year?

[88] 200, 250 days.

[89] Oh my God.

[90] Yeah, yeah.

[91] I'm trying to slow that down, but that's definitely my bread and butter.

[92] That's what I do.

[93] Right.

[94] I'm a bluesman.

[95] I'm a live traveling musician.

[96] Right.

[97] Your career's had so many different peaks in valleys and all this up and down.

[98] And there were probably times you love touring.

[99] There's probably times you hated touring.

[100] Is there an acceptance phase where you just go like, oh, whatever, this is what I'm doing?

[101] Yeah, that acceptance phase came a long time ago.

[102] You know, I've had, to embrace it.

[103] You know, touring, you know, um, it, it can be very stressful and hectic.

[104] It destroys relationships in a lot of ways.

[105] Yeah.

[106] Yeah.

[107] So, you know, you have to like, you know, I have grown children who've grown up while I've toured.

[108] Right.

[109] You know, and, and so it's like, I've had to be honest about what it is.

[110] Yeah.

[111] And how often would they come?

[112] My kids tour to me often.

[113] Yeah.

[114] My son, you just miss my son.

[115] My son is now at the age where it's like, he'll call me. I'm like, um, I'm in Oakland.

[116] I'm like, he's like, can I come to the show?

[117] I'm like, Like, how did you get to Oakland?

[118] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[119] But when I was 21 years old, I was taking buses and across the country and stuff like that.

[120] So that's what he's doing that.

[121] That's really fun.

[122] Yeah.

[123] Is it cool to watch?

[124] It is.

[125] It is.

[126] My kids are, they actually live in the apartment next door to me. Well, they do.

[127] In New York.

[128] Oh, good.

[129] Which is, that's been about the last year or so.

[130] Uh -huh.

[131] And so I've been able to get closer to them and really get to know them as people.

[132] You know, because as a teenager, you're still trying to figure out which kind of person you are.

[133] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[134] So now my daughter's 19, my son's 21.

[135] Now they are who they are.

[136] Right.

[137] So now I'm getting to know who that person is.

[138] Yeah.

[139] And does the stress at all dissipate?

[140] Because when you're a parent, you're like, you know, you put a lot of thought into, man, I hope this is what we got them on the right, you know.

[141] I'm a little stressed out.

[142] Yeah.

[143] Like you have less control now, obviously.

[144] Yeah.

[145] But you know what it is?

[146] It's like it's stressful to watch your children do exactly what you did that your parents told you not to do.

[147] Yes.

[148] You know, so my parents told me not to.

[149] drop out of college.

[150] Both of my kids did this.

[151] Oh, they did.

[152] Yeah.

[153] Okay.

[154] My son has a song where he talks about smoking weed.

[155] When it's somebody, he's 21, I started smoking weed at 15.

[156] So I was like, what am I supposed to say?

[157] Also, there's a, there's a historical record of you.

[158] Yeah.

[159] You've lived out loud.

[160] That's right.

[161] You can only lie so much.

[162] That's right.

[163] And I can't, and you know what the crazy thing is is that I can't, um, I can't, I just cannot, I got to let them be who they are.

[164] My rule is I can't smoke weed with my son until he's paying his own rent.

[165] Oh.

[166] Okay.

[167] Okay.

[168] I like it.

[169] So you just said your parents were concerned about you dropping out.

[170] And that's, I would assume, impacted a lot by the fact that your mother was a professor, right?

[171] And my father.

[172] And your father as well.

[173] And now my brother.

[174] My younger brother.

[175] Your brother in like all -star fashion, right?

[176] He's a Columbia constitutional law.

[177] Yeah.

[178] Did you say younger?

[179] He's younger.

[180] And is he just...

[181] I had to learn how to...

[182] I went to his 40th birthday party and I made a speech about I stopped calling him a little brother.

[183] And he nodded in agreement like, yes.

[184] Yeah.

[185] And by the way, that happened a while ago before you admitted it.

[186] Yeah, yeah.

[187] So he's just crack smart.

[188] He's like the, I'm like the beta of him.

[189] Uh -huh.

[190] I'm like the beta version.

[191] I was the test.

[192] Yeah, yeah.

[193] They got it right with him.

[194] I'm two years older.

[195] Oh, you're two years older.

[196] Okay.

[197] So now he's what, 43.

[198] Oh, no, he's 41.

[199] He's 40.

[200] He's, I guess I'm 43.

[201] I don't know.

[202] You are 43.

[203] You know, I'm like Don't chaper, you know, I don't pay attention to birthdays.

[204] Okay, yeah.

[205] But we're the same.

[206] same age.

[207] Okay.

[208] That's how you know.

[209] Yeah, yeah.

[210] Okay.

[211] But I have this weird mental thing.

[212] If I've revered somebody, for whatever reason, just in my mind, they're older.

[213] So like when I was reading your age, I was like, oh, that's weird.

[214] We were kids at the exact same time, you know, discovering stuff probably very, you know, same time in space.

[215] Yeah.

[216] No, that's interesting because I definitely call my brother and ask him for advice like he's my older brother.

[217] Uh -huh.

[218] Absolutely.

[219] Yeah.

[220] And when did that start?

[221] In high school?

[222] Oh, in high school.

[223] My brother was in Hunter College High School When I was dropping out Which was like the best high school you could go to He would come downstairs To see me and my friends Like smoke a weed in the basement And he would just shake his head Uh huh And he's just a crazy overachiever Yeah he went to Yale He went to Harvard first Oh Jesus Then he became a sports writer Because I gave him my baseball cards He like smashed that subject He wrote for Sports Illustrated for a couple of years Really And then he decided that He was never going to be the best sports writer So he went to Yale for law school, studied constitutional law, got out, started working for Justice Stevens and when Justice Stevens retired, he was interviewed.

[224] On the Supreme Court, right?

[225] Yeah.

[226] Wow.

[227] I would see my brother on C -SPAN interviewing and like, you know, grilling congressmen and stuff.

[228] And now he works at Columbia.

[229] That is wild.

[230] Yeah.

[231] And your parents, they need to write a fucking book because you're a, you know, all -star fucking hip -hop MC and then the other son's professor at Columbia.

[232] Yeah.

[233] They did some shit right.

[234] They did.

[235] They did good.

[236] what did they do what was the secret sauce i think education i think there's their focus like almost laser precision like focus on education we went to museums and libraries every weekend we read in the house there was books in the house yeah yeah i feel like if you don't have books in your living room i can't trust you yeah yeah yeah yeah i think i saw an episode of cribs you remember that show on mtv yes i do and i want to say it was either moby i think it was moby but basically basically the full tour of Cribs was just his bookshelf.

[237] He's like, I've seen so many episodes of this show.

[238] I've never seen anyone with a bookshelf in their house.

[239] It's very troubling to me. Books are going to be like, like, you know, art. Steam powered cars.

[240] Yeah, or it's going to be like art that you hang up.

[241] Yeah.

[242] You know what I'm saying?

[243] Well, and in fact, there's an artist, I don't know if he's here in L .A., but I know some people that have his art. And he does that.

[244] He makes these crazy kind of, um, uh, statue things out of books, old books.

[245] Yeah.

[246] And, and, yeah, and it has a gravitas to it, these, books it just there's something about it that has a weight yeah when you see like uh dystopian movies about the future there's never any books books are like commodities like a book of eli type type of thing like people are going to have to just like know stuff in their head right you know it's going to go back we're going to cycle back so when everything we learned was just told to each other right yeah yeah exactly that's how we pass on all these things yeah like the grios so now when when both parents are professors i imagine it'd be easy to rebel as well by going like Yeah, I'm not going to be an academic.

[247] Is that tempting?

[248] Yeah, I mean, our generation was the first sort of generation to become adults and realize that what our parents did, what our parents thought about education in school and college in particular might not be accurate.

[249] The idea that, you know, my parents, especially being like black parents, all you had to do was go to college.

[250] Like that's what, that was the myth in the 50s and the 60s, man. If you could just go to college, you were guaranteed a good life.

[251] You were guaranteed a good job.

[252] You guaranteed a 401K.

[253] Yeah.

[254] And that sort of, you know, that bubble burst when we became adults.

[255] Yeah.

[256] So we had the unfortunate job of telling our parents, look, your ideals may not be accurate for this generation.

[257] Yeah.

[258] And I might have to be an entrepreneur.

[259] I might have to do something different than just work for somebody for my whole life to just end up in debt.

[260] I'm already in debt because I went to college.

[261] Yeah.

[262] And then I think that it's only gotten truer post our generation, you know, Zuckerberg.

[263] and all these people, they've dropped out or other huge entrepreneurs have left.

[264] One of these guys is even touring, suggesting people drop out of college.

[265] I forget which one.

[266] As much as I appreciate it because it's my life story, it's dangerous.

[267] And me having children who are now becoming adults, that's a scary thought.

[268] Like, my conversation with my son in Oakland, like I'm glad in Oakland, I let him rap on the stage, but you need to fly back home and get a fucking job.

[269] What are you doing?

[270] You know what I'm saying?

[271] And it was a difficult thing for me to be in that position.

[272] to tell my son, you have to go work for somebody.

[273] Well, compounded heavily by the fact that their father didn't do that.

[274] Like, I was reading a book about, who's in a Malcolm Gladwell book, and it kind of talked about to what degree money does make your life better or easier, right?

[275] And then what they found is that it caps out at around, like, at least the time of this book, 175 grand.

[276] Anything past that, it's going to plateau for a while.

[277] And then it's going to start going down, actually, like how, you know, what the children are you going to turn out like.

[278] And one of the theories is it's really easy for parents to say, no, I can't buy you that bike because I can't afford that bike.

[279] That's easy to say.

[280] To say, I could buy you that bike, but I'm not going to buy you that bike because it'd be bad for your character is almost impossible for parents to say.

[281] Yeah, there's definitely levels.

[282] I've heard stories about James Brown where they say that James Brown didn't have a relationship with any of his children because his childhood was so hard growing up.

[283] He didn't want people to be able to lean on his.

[284] name for his success.

[285] He really was focused on almost to a fault.

[286] Well, that's the song, boy named Sue.

[287] You know that song, Johnny Cash song.

[288] It's really a Shell Silverstein poem.

[289] Okay.

[290] But his dad leaves him and his mom when he's young and what he does before he leaves, he names his son Sue because he knows that'll make him tough since he's not going to be around to make him tough.

[291] This name Sue will get him there.

[292] That's a good, you know, good songwriting concept.

[293] Now, in Brooklyn where you grew up, and I would just be fully speculative, but even when I tell my story now in public.

[294] And where'd you go up?

[295] I grew up in a suburb of Detroit and it was probably the last town where people half the town still drove to Detroit and worked there.

[296] And then just to the west of us became farmland.

[297] So it was a weird mix of straight up kids got on my school bus with shit all over their boots because they had shoveled out the barn that morning.

[298] And then there were kids whose parents were engineers at General Motors and Ford.

[299] So it was this weird mix.

[300] But when I telling my life story, I'm focusing on the part that we lived in a welfare apartment when my mom first left my dad.

[301] I guess it's this, you know, I can't avoid this a bootstrap story.

[302] Like it's a better story, right?

[303] I skipped the part where my mom built this great company and we lived in a pretty damn nice house by the time I was a senior.

[304] And I was, I also was really drawn to, for lack of a better word, the bad kids.

[305] Like I wanted to be in the neighborhood where there was no curfew.

[306] I was drawn to that.

[307] And so I was, I, I wanted to be that in a weird way where I ended up downplaying, you know, that we did live in a nice house.

[308] There's these weird kind of social barriers where to me that you kind of hide certain stuff.

[309] So I'm curious, having super educated parents in Brooklyn hanging around in Brooklyn, was that something you tried to downplay or did you embrace it?

[310] That is an excellent question.

[311] There's a lot of layers to that question, and you're also being honest about your upbringing and asking the question.

[312] A recent thing happened to me on social media is, you know, you've seen me on social media.

[313] And by the way, but this stems a little bit from some of the arguments I've seen you have.

[314] And I've seen people attack you.

[315] And one of the attacks is like, what the fuck do you know because your parents were professors.

[316] And right.

[317] So there's a lot of layers to it.

[318] One first is that a lot of racist people in this country associate education with rich and white.

[319] Yes.

[320] So if you're an educated black person and you carry yourself as if you've received a high level of education, somehow in these people's eyes, you're less black and you have less.

[321] In the black community's eyes.

[322] I'm in the black in every community.

[323] Oh, I guess you have white people too.

[324] Yeah, because I'm not, it's not black people who are attacking me from our upbringing.

[325] It's white supremac mostly who are attacking me from our upbringing.

[326] Oh, okay.

[327] Because they're like, why are you standing up for black people?

[328] You went to boarding school.

[329] Your parents are professors.

[330] Okay.

[331] One, the idea that professors are rich is a completely flawed idea.

[332] Sure, sure.

[333] Especially in New York City.

[334] Absolutely.

[335] There's a small number of professors that might live, make more than $100 ,000.

[336] But right now, right now, today, and the only reason I know this is because I've had to look it up to bolster my argument.

[337] You know what I'm saying?

[338] Like the average salary for a professor of any school, whether it's a city college or Ivy League right now, is $98 ,000.

[339] Now, when you take a professor who's working at an inner city college or, you know, like in Crown Heights, Brooklyn or Best -Dye, Brooklyn, like my father worked at College of New Rochelle on Fulton Street in Best -Dy, Brooklyn when I was growing up.

[340] My mother, to this day, works at McGar -Average College in Crown Heights.

[341] These are some of the poorest neighborhoods in the city.

[342] Yeah.

[343] These are city colleges.

[344] These are not rich institutions.

[345] Yeah.

[346] And so you take that average number of 98, you have to cut that in half.

[347] And then the fact that these are black institutions, you have to cut that even have even more.

[348] Yeah.

[349] And then when you take it back to the fact that I'm talking about 1975 to 1985, we're not talking about now.

[350] Yeah.

[351] So one is the idea that professors are rich, that's just a lie.

[352] The secondly, the idea that somehow Park Slope, Brooklyn has always been the neighborhood where, you know, Maggie Gillinghall lives.

[353] You know, it's not always been that neighborhood.

[354] Right, right.

[355] It's been gentrified heavily.

[356] Absolutely.

[357] And when I grew up in Park Slope, it wasn't the Park Slope of nowadays.

[358] It wasn't.

[359] Well, nor was New York in general.

[360] New York in general.

[361] And obviously, there are neighborhoods in Brooklyn that are far worse, such as Crowe Heights and Bedstuy, are worse than Park Slope.

[362] But it was never this place where rich people lived.

[363] Now, what I will say is we have to acknowledge our privileges.

[364] Yeah.

[365] I am more privileged to grow up in Park Slope than a black kid who grew up in Brownsville.

[366] Yeah.

[367] I am more, I have educational privilege.

[368] I've inherited educational privilege by being born in a house full of professors.

[369] Yeah.

[370] Most people are not.

[371] He was born in the house of drug dealers.

[372] Yes.

[373] So it informed his content, informed who he was.

[374] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[375] We've all been there.

[376] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[377] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[378] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[379] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[380] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[381] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[382] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[383] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[384] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music.

[385] What's up, guys?

[386] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[387] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[388] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[389] And I don't mean just friends.

[390] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[391] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[392] this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[393] But there is, right, in the hip -hop music world, there is a, that's a commodity, or it has been a commodity.

[394] Like street cred.

[395] Yeah, street cred.

[396] Well, certainly suburban white kids are drawn to the danger of that whole world.

[397] Absolutely.

[398] So exotic.

[399] So then it's obviously inflated and characterized by a lot of the singers, right?

[400] Well, just like you said, you were drawn to certain dangerous elements.

[401] because of how you grew up.

[402] So is I. I want to be in the hell's angels.

[403] So even, you're a tough guy.

[404] But my parents changed their situation.

[405] We grew up in a railroad apartment.

[406] I lived in a room with my brother.

[407] We had bunk beds.

[408] You know, by the time I was in high school, my parents bought their first house.

[409] And then my parents were so focused on education when I was failing out of Brooklyn Tech.

[410] They put all their money into sending me to boarding school.

[411] And to be honest with you, and I don't really speak about this as often, but it broke them.

[412] It broke their finances.

[413] It broke up their marriage.

[414] It was a tough situation.

[415] You know, I really, really thank my parents for taking me out of the inner city school system and doing everything they could to put me in boarding school would change my life around.

[416] I probably would have been in jail right now.

[417] Yeah.

[418] And you went to a boarding school in Connecticut?

[419] I did.

[420] Me and James Vanderbeek went to the same school.

[421] Get out of here.

[422] The Beek.

[423] Were you friends?

[424] We were.

[425] Really?

[426] He acted in the first play that I wrote.

[427] Get out of here.

[428] This is very exciting.

[429] This is like finding out that, um, uh, Jada Pinkett Smith and, in, and Tupac.

[430] And Tupac were friends in school.

[431] Like, who's the Jada of Pinkett Smith in this relationship?

[432] Uh, Jane Vanderbeek, I think.

[433] I'm Tupac.

[434] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[435] So you, you, you, you go to a boarding school.

[436] And what grade is this?

[437] This is 10th grade.

[438] Okay.

[439] So yeah, that, that's, for, that scares the fuck out of me thinking of that.

[440] I moved schools in ninth grade, a new high school, and that was very hard.

[441] Yeah.

[442] Because I had this whole identity perfectly carved out And then I showed up this place And they had better shoes than I did And everything unraveled Pimples and bad haircut You know, whatever Is this safe to assume this boarding school in Connecticut Is a lot more white people now?

[443] Yeah, it was 137 kids In the whole school There were six black kids, Five of them were there to play basketball.

[444] Okay.

[445] And not you weren't one of those.

[446] I was not one on the basketball team.

[447] Yeah, yeah.

[448] I was in drama.

[449] So when I talked to, Joy on here.

[450] She had a very similar experience.

[451] So she grew up.

[452] I fucking, why can't I remember the name of that?

[453] Monica.

[454] Where'd she grew up?

[455] Bronx.

[456] Bronx.

[457] She left the Bronx and went to a Connecticut boarding school as well.

[458] Do you remember which one?

[459] I probably played them in lacrosse.

[460] Oh my God.

[461] Do you know that was her sport?

[462] I didn't play lacrosse.

[463] Oh, you didn't?

[464] I played baseball.

[465] Okay.

[466] I played baseball.

[467] But I did, I did pick up a stick and I learned a basic lacrosse moves.

[468] Well, her thing was, I'm not going to come.

[469] Basically, I'm not going to come here and sing.

[470] Like, I know, you guys want me to run track and play basketball, but I'm going to play lacrosse tennis.

[471] So she specifically chose all kind of traditionally, you know.

[472] I was in Blue Key Society.

[473] I was in the, I was on, I was in drama.

[474] I was in, um, yeah, I played baseball in Brooklyn.

[475] So that was a natural fit.

[476] Sure.

[477] Well, and what's funny is I think she said them by her senior year.

[478] She's like, oh, fuck it.

[479] I'll run track.

[480] And then she was great at track.

[481] Just ran past everyone.

[482] But hers was intentional.

[483] She like made a choice.

[484] Was yours or you just, those were the things you like.

[485] and so you don't know yeah i mean she it sounds like she was more intentional those were definitely my interest but i do have a remember mr casson if my first day the basketball coach he came up to me and was in my ear for a half hour about joining the basketball and i'm like you don't get it i suck at basketball i'm not that black kid um and so when you go there do you fit in easily um it took about a year i'm so afraid of saying all these cliches but i i think there's i'm interested of them for reasons downriver, which is, are you code switching?

[486] You're now learning to go back and forth between the Bronx and Connecticut and succeed in both places.

[487] Code switching is a great word and that's exactly it, is that what I learned, I learned that if you make yourself indispensable, that you can do anything you want.

[488] And by being the black kid who was like not on the basketball team, being the black kid who was on the - Roto fucking play.

[489] Yeah.

[490] Yeah, I'm, I'm, you know, I was, I remember I was, I was selling pot at the school.

[491] And, you know, border school, if anybody's been to board of school, you know, you get kicked out for that.

[492] All the white kids who got caught selling drugs, you got kicked out.

[493] They pulled me and had a meeting.

[494] They was like, you have to stop.

[495] Oh, really?

[496] Please, you have to stop.

[497] We can't afford to lose you.

[498] Yeah, you're too important.

[499] Yeah, so that was a, learn that lesson, though.

[500] That was a life lesson.

[501] I was like, okay, you just got to, these rules don't matter.

[502] Uh -huh.

[503] Right.

[504] That is a kind of important, something to observe early on, which is like, okay, yeah.

[505] there's an architecture to all this, but you can also get outside of it, right?

[506] I think so much of, like, people you see who make it to, let's say Bill Clinton, right, he runs for a governor of Arkansas.

[507] You're too young.

[508] That can't be done.

[509] No one's ever been that young.

[510] And then he wins.

[511] Then he gets booted.

[512] And then he runs again.

[513] They're like, no one's ever come back.

[514] So if he's gathering all this data that says, oh, no, these rules I was told don't really apply to me. Then, of course, you think you can get a blowjob in the White House because you've already You've proven that, like, most of these rules you've been told are pretty fluid.

[515] Excellent point.

[516] You know?

[517] So what was your favorite part of that experience of being in that world?

[518] Really, that education, learning how white people deal with each other.

[519] Spending the night, like making friends with white kids, going to the houses, spending, you know, sometimes on a weekend, I wouldn't go home.

[520] You go to spend the weekend at your friend's house and just seeing how white families with means operate and how that was different from where I came from.

[521] Yeah.

[522] It's like Chappelle's joke about going to his friend's house and they're about to eat the stove top stuff.

[523] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[524] Exactly that's exactly.

[525] It's the stove top experience.

[526] Yeah, that was tremendous.

[527] So you saw that special, right?

[528] I did.

[529] Did you love it?

[530] I did.

[531] I watched, I'm good friends with him.

[532] So I watched him develop those jokes over time all over the world.

[533] I've watched him in London and in Ohio and San Francisco developing those jokes and they were some of them were a lot worse.

[534] Yeah, yeah.

[535] He rained some of that stuff in for this.

[536] break a lot of eggs.

[537] We're super fans of his.

[538] Yeah, he's great.

[539] We were taken aback by that special.

[540] He also, in it, in it's, um, there's so many political things you and I could talk about eventually, but, but one of the cool things about him, like when you're talking about what you picked up there and code switching, all these different elements can put someone in a very unique position to make some observations that most people can.

[541] Right.

[542] So whereas, there's something about Chappelle, I think, being black that allows him.

[543] him to do some things that I can't get up on stage and do, you know, there's some observations that he's saying that I'm like, oh, I'm so glad he's saying that because it's really not my position to say that, but I have the same thought.

[544] You know, when he's getting into the fact of like, look, I can think something's weird and I can make fun of it and also really want the rights of that person to be protected.

[545] And I want them to have the same opportunity that anyone else has.

[546] And I can also say I think it's weird or funny.

[547] I can't say that as a white do, nor should I, but I'm glad that that somehow buys him some latitude to do that.

[548] Yeah, I've talked to him about some of these jokes and, you know, we've had discussions about you know, as a comedian, you're allowed to generalize to a certain degree.

[549] Yes, yes.

[550] You're a lot of these, a lot of the great comedians, you know, whether it's Dice Clay or Chris Rock or Chappelle.

[551] Yeah.

[552] Or Sam Kinnison is like, it's based on huge sweeping generalizations of people.

[553] Women do this, men do this.

[554] Yeah.

[555] Women be shopping.

[556] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[557] And it gets to the point where it can either become cliched or it can lead to a very astute social commentary, depending on which way you take it.

[558] Yes.

[559] Well, he has the most artful way of weaving in really poignant historical stuff.

[560] And I just think above all skills, that's the one that he's just incredible.

[561] I think Chris Rock does it too pretty well.

[562] But boy, Chappelle really fucking.

[563] Like, you can actually be choked up in the middle of that thing.

[564] Yeah, yeah.

[565] It's a special what he does.

[566] He has a special gift.

[567] Yeah.

[568] So you get out of this boarding school.

[569] Do you go straight to NYU?

[570] You go to NYU.

[571] You go to NYU.

[572] I graduated in 93 and I started in NYU.

[573] My roommate was John Forte.

[574] We started together.

[575] Who's John Forte for good money?

[576] John Forte is a rapper that I grew up with.

[577] He became famous because he produced on that first Fuji's album.

[578] Oh, okay.

[579] And then he's on the record with Wyclef staying alive.

[580] He's on a Fujis song, Cowboys and family.

[581] Yeah.

[582] But he famously got arrested for selling drugs and did eight years in prison.

[583] And then George Bush, last thing George Bush did before he left office was pardoned John Forte.

[584] You are kidding me. So he's been out since 2004.

[585] I did not see that coming.

[586] Yeah.

[587] Of all people, pardon him.

[588] How did that?

[589] He was very good friends with Taylor.

[590] I forget the guy's first name.

[591] James Taylor and Carly Simon's son.

[592] Oh, okay.

[593] He's good friends with John Forte.

[594] So he spends a lot of time.

[595] Carly Simon's house in Martha's Vineyard Next door is Orrin Hatch Senator from Republican from Pennsylvania Orrin Hatch falls in love with John Forte as an artist John Forte goes to jail Orrin Hatch as despicable as he can be Spends a lot of time in George Bush's ear Like you gotta get my man John Forte out You gotta get him out, you got to get him out So John Forte is, you know John Forte is just like me He's the same politics as me But he's a guy who's pardoned by George W. Bush What a wild story You know, and now he's, God bless him.

[596] He now lives in Martha's Vineyard.

[597] He has a brand new baby.

[598] His Instagram is just full of joy.

[599] Yeah, yeah.

[600] Every day it's him and his baby and walking on a hike.

[601] Does he hashtag, thank you, George W.?

[602] No, he doesn't do that.

[603] But you point out something great, and I think this is something lacking.

[604] I think, you know, you and I are both on Twitter, and I see your arguments a lot, and I get into myself.

[605] But I think we have really more than ever been forced into this binary opposition, right?

[606] Like, so the neighbor on Martha's Vineyard, who was in, George W. Bush's ear.

[607] Right.

[608] So, right, like, you're kind of forced now to either, you know, soup to nuts hate a person or soup to nuts love a person, right?

[609] And then to soup to nuts love a person, you got to now start excusing all the human shit they do.

[610] And then to soup to nuts hate a person, you got to ignore some shit like whispering in George W. Bush's ear.

[611] Right.

[612] And people are so complex, right?

[613] There's amazing virtue.

[614] And then there's despicable deeds.

[615] And it's just this all.

[616] We all are this way.

[617] You know, if you got to peek on my whole life, there's shit.

[618] You'd go, well, that's a bad person.

[619] That human being is no good.

[620] We should throw them out.

[621] But it's just one big thing.

[622] We got to be able to pick what things we like and dislike and not shut everything down.

[623] Well, for activism, and I'm speaking, most people are not activists, you know.

[624] And an activist community is definitely which I consider myself a part of.

[625] Yes.

[626] It's definitely a which side are you on conversation.

[627] It's like either you're going to be down with this solidarity.

[628] down with this intersectionality or I'm going to treat you like you're the enemy and so I get that gut instinct but of course there's nuances and there's you know human nature and there's there's you know people grow and people change and not everybody agrees so you have to it's it's very very um social media has made it harder uh for us to had those conversations because now everyone is volunteering their bullshit yeah before it was like you really had to get to know somebody to understand really that that was your enemy now somebody could just say something like you know, I don't like that Beyonce wore dressed like a panther at the Super Bowl.

[629] You're like, fuck you forever.

[630] You could not know.

[631] You could be at the grocery store, see that same person you hate doing something with their child where you go like, oh my God, that's just a good human being.

[632] Look at the care that they're giving to this other person.

[633] I think that's just growth.

[634] That's just growth and paying attention.

[635] I think if you're focused on growing as a person, you're going to be aware of those things.

[636] And the people who make arguments online with strangers, they're just completely.

[637] not aware of any of those things.

[638] The people who jump in and be like, I'm going to tell you my opinion.

[639] And you know, a lot of most, I would say most of the people who come at me and say something that I'm like, well, that was really racist.

[640] They've never been called a racist in their life.

[641] And they never even thought what they were, they weren't, their intention wasn't racism.

[642] They just were like, they saw something that triggered them for some reason.

[643] Sure.

[644] And they're not understanding their privilege in that situation.

[645] Right.

[646] And they're just, they're doing what they've been taught in America.

[647] You're taught that you're special.

[648] You're taught that you're entitled.

[649] to your opinion, your title say whatever you want, and this is a free country.

[650] Well, you're very, very encouraged to be an individual above all things.

[651] So you're almost, you're almost hardwired to be provocative.

[652] You're stepping out probably a little further than your position maybe even is.

[653] And this is one of my issues that you and I will probably disagree with, but I worry about the term racist.

[654] I worry about the term homophobic.

[655] I worry about all these terms that have no gradation in them.

[656] And so when I see them used, I think a little bit flippantly, I go, well, that really undermines what we're calling David Duke.

[657] If you're going to call the dude who made, you know, something that was just insensitive and not aware of their privilege versus a man whose goal is to strengthen the white race and get everyone out of this country, we need different words for that.

[658] Even in the Me Too movement, in Matt Damon came under fire for this, there is a difference between Weinstein and Al Frank.

[659] Yeah, Al Brinand, you know.

[660] But see, I think Matt Damon is a good example.

[661] Because here's somebody who, you know, there's some bias here.

[662] You might be friends with Matt Damon.

[663] You might, I'm a, I've never met the man. I'm super fan of his work.

[664] Love his work.

[665] Right.

[666] I've seen him do things and say things that were a little insensitive.

[667] Like there was a whole thing with the Project Greenlight thing and whether or not they were hiring, working with people of color.

[668] Oh, I didn't remember the details from that.

[669] But I remember reading it and being like, you need some education on that error.

[670] So with the Me Too comment, while technically what he's saying is correct, the way he said it and his position of privilege in that situation is what made it incorrect.

[671] Because he started with, if I remember it correctly, and you probably could look it up.

[672] We started with, I haven't been paying attention to what's been said.

[673] You can't start like that.

[674] You can't come into it saying, I haven't really been paying attention.

[675] I'm ignorant on this topic, but here's my opinion.

[676] Okay.

[677] And so his opinion was, what you just said, which on the surface, I agree with.

[678] But if you're Matt Damon, Matt Damon, who worked closely with Harvey Weinstein on many, many, many projects.

[679] Like Harvey Weinstein's been very involved in your career and you've broken a lot of bread with him and made a lot of money with him.

[680] You probably should just shut the fuck up on that subject matter.

[681] I don't think Matt Damon's leaving his house and hosting a press conference.

[682] He's out promoting something completely unrelated is and they are only asking him that because he does know Weinstein.

[683] So now his options are to say completely silence, which, You could say that you're supporting through silence or he's got to wait out into the waters and say something.

[684] So he's in a lose -lose situation right out of the gates because he didn't come to this press conference, you know, to this junket, yes, whatever.

[685] But I think he did have a samurai outfit, you know, and all of a sudden.

[686] Okay, that's another point.

[687] Now, while I watched that movie.

[688] What is the movie?

[689] I forget the name of it.

[690] I watched that movie.

[691] And as much as I enjoyed the action scenes, yeah.

[692] And as a big of a fan I am of Matt Damon.

[693] Yeah.

[694] I'm like, do we need to see another fucking white guy in Asia?

[695] Like, what is this?

[696] Why is he just killing everything?

[697] And it's like, you're doing this.

[698] And then you're like, hey, you know.

[699] But I think what he should have done, what he had to do, which he didn't do, was because you're so close to Weinstein, it's your duty to inform yourself about what's going on.

[700] You can't show up an interview and be like, I don't know what's going on.

[701] And I've learned the hard way because I've, what I did on Twitter, I had an argument with a, with a feminist collective of people.

[702] Okay.

[703] that I, to this day, feel like I'm owed an apology for and felt like I was right in the points I was making.

[704] But the thing I did wrong was I've self -declared myself an ally to these people.

[705] And I learned online that you can't do that.

[706] Yeah, I've done that.

[707] Yeah, so I've learned the hard way that as I'm Taliban -Qaali.

[708] I make songs uplifting women.

[709] I got black girl pain and, you know, all these, all these positive things I've said and done for women.

[710] And I'm being attacked by these feminists.

[711] Uh -huh.

[712] And I'm like, my first reaction, like, hold up.

[713] I'm your ally.

[714] Yes.

[715] And that's where I fucked up at.

[716] And it's because I didn't recognize my privilege in that situation.

[717] So while every, like 90 % of what I've said was right, because I approached it from a privileged position, it dismantled everything I was saying.

[718] You know what I'm saying?

[719] Which was hard for me to swallow because it was such a good point.

[720] Yes.

[721] But I have something to say real quick.

[722] Yes, please.

[723] That's true.

[724] But we can't, like I'll take the Me Too movement because I'm a woman.

[725] We can't do.

[726] anything without male allies we cannot we have to have people and same with the race stuff you have to have people on both ends yeah i'm not sure i agree with that really oh because because because could you guys tweet this to each other because like if i if i get a if i got if i got if i got a white guy come to me on come to me and twitter and say hey quali black people say nigga why can't i say nigga and i explain it to him and they says yeah i don't agree with you and then my next thing is well you don't have to agree with me i don't fucking need your opinion and i really don't need you Like I'll, I tell white people all the time who tell me, we, you need white allies.

[727] No, I don't need allies based on their color.

[728] I need allies based on their ally shit.

[729] But I think the point that Monica's making, which is unavoidable, which is 50 % of this country is male.

[730] So sure, you could do whatever you wanted on your side of the street as a woman.

[731] But you're ignoring the fact that 50 % of this country is male.

[732] So ultimately, we do need men to change, right?

[733] We need men to acknowledge there's a problem.

[734] And also help probably mentor.

[735] other men and how to fucking do this right that's true but they can't really be an ally until they do that so if someone hasn't done that work then that person you don't need you need the person who's already done that work yeah but i guess the question that we're all trying to get to is well how do you get someone to do that work if the first interaction is confrontational yes right yeah um and i think uh and you can speak for women i speak for black people um i'll speak for hillbillies yeah you know and not well you can speak for yourself i'll speak for myself you know i think the the gut reaction to for many people of color is what you just said is like we need other people to do the work so your gut reaction when someone comes to you challenging you do to do the work that you've been doing your whole fucking life it's like fuck you get the fuck out of here i'm not trying to hear that shit take that shit go talk to someone who's being racist yeah you know i'm saying stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare but i also think we've we've definitely lost the nuance in this country we've lost the ability to hold two conflicting opinions at the same time we have lost the middle road between anything you know what no one would accept is so uh my little sister i fucking love her you just met her she could kill 12 people uh i might think she needs to go to jail but i also will publicly say i love her i will love her no matter what she does i love her so what what matt damon probably feels conflicted about is i love harvey Weinstein i've had this relationship with him there is a side of him that i know intimately and I love and I'm very bummed that this is another part of him but that doesn't mean I've you pulled my heart out I think you see it a lot with other comedians who are friends with louis k hey like you have this whole experience in life with somebody then you find out something terrible about them and I think the outside world wants you to say I don't love or care about this person this person's evil and they should be put in a hole but that's just not realistic that's not there's no nuances that there's no reality it's like all things are true this is despicable.

[736] I'm so bummed he did this.

[737] I also love this person would still push him out of the way of a train.

[738] Like all things are happening at once.

[739] Right.

[740] Well, look at Adam Horowitz from the Beastie Boys.

[741] What happened with him?

[742] Whose father was a professor in New York and it just recently came out a few months ago that there was a bunch of sexually harassment assault allegations against his father.

[743] Okay.

[744] He's named after his father.

[745] So Adam, you know, Ad Rock from the Beastie Boys, named after his father.

[746] He came out immediately and was like, I think my father did all that.

[747] And he's still my father, but I stand with these women.

[748] I've noticed in the public sphere, he doesn't identify with his father's last name.

[749] And so I think that's the sort of counter to the, well, I love this person because you can, I'm sure he still loves his father.

[750] Like, is there anything your kids could do?

[751] There's nothing they could do, right, that would ever make you not love them and not, not, you know.

[752] Absolutely.

[753] Kristen and I have had these crazy hypothetical conversations where we find out our oldest daughter is killing and eating people.

[754] and she says, what do you do?

[755] And I say, I take her to an island where there's no people.

[756] I'll live the rest of my life and babysitter.

[757] I fucking am dedicated.

[758] Like, I love her.

[759] Nothing could happen.

[760] And I think the human spirit allows for that.

[761] We all relate to that.

[762] But I think when we talk about a responsibility you have to the society, especially as a public figure, it becomes a different, you know, it's like the Spider -Man thing with great power comes great responsibility.

[763] And if you've lived a life that you've attained as great power through celebrity or being famous you got to be careful with how you wield it yes and what you say and um you know the the louis k thing is interesting to me because i'm a huge fan i'm a memberist fan club the day that that stuff came out he was just announced that he was putting out his movie i was about to buy five dollars that i couldn't buy the movie and there was like i think uh uh mark marron uh i think his his response was something that i was able to look at and relate to yeah and understand yeah you know what Because he basically said that, right?

[764] Like, all I can say is he is a really good friend and I'm really sad by this.

[765] But he also, the thing I think it was important for him to say is he said that I was friends with these comedians that were accusing him of this.

[766] And they didn't feel comfortable enough to tell me. Right.

[767] So what am I doing wrong that women I'm friends with can't come to me with this?

[768] Oh, he said that.

[769] Yeah.

[770] And he's like, it was really interesting because he spoke about Louis and he spoke about how he didn't like what he also said that Louie lied to him.

[771] And he said he was still his friend.

[772] friend, but he was like, you know, he said, I looked around and what I do, I don't hire women in my work.

[773] And he said, it made me, he said, I'm, I'm 40, 50 something years old and I'm still growing as a person with this issue.

[774] Yeah.

[775] How can I be, how can I have made it to this age and still be this ignorant about my own relationships?

[776] Yeah.

[777] And I think, I think when, when you stop growing, that's when you die.

[778] John Stewart, all, had a very similar, funny response to, um, being accused by Slate or some online magazine that his show was just the boys club and all this.

[779] He said this on Stern.

[780] And he was so offended by it, right?

[781] He was so hurt because, again, he thinks of himself as a real champion for women, right?

[782] And he's just wrestling with it all day, all night.

[783] He goes to the writer's room the next morning.

[784] He goes, can you believe what this woman said, Mike?

[785] John, did you hear this?

[786] Phil, did you hear what the...

[787] Right.

[788] He goes, right.

[789] Oh, shit.

[790] Right.

[791] Oh, shit.

[792] There is some...

[793] She has a point.

[794] Right.

[795] I just wrote an essay for medium called free speech or die where I've talked about how the...

[796] I feel like the alt -right is weaponizing free speech to shut down speech.

[797] They just don't want to hear.

[798] And one of the points I make about the Me Too thing and safe spaces and trigger warnings and comedians like Chris Rock who say I don't go to colleges anymore because it's too politically correct.

[799] Yeah.

[800] The first point I make is, Because one, I don't hold a comedian to the same standard I would hold a politician or Richard Spencer.

[801] You know, like we talked earlier, comedians are based on generalization.

[802] So I don't expect a comedian to be politically correct.

[803] But at the same time, the people at these colleges, the kids at these colleges from the French Revolution to the counterculture movement in 60s, they've always been on the right side of history.

[804] So if they're wrongly accusing people to things every once in a while, we might just have to take that as a society.

[805] Yeah, some collaboration.

[806] There's somebody who might get called a rapist who's not really a rapist.

[807] That's going to happen.

[808] But I think we have to, I think because of what women have gone through.

[809] But can I just say something on that point, which is that's hard for me to swallow because our entire judicial system is set up on the opposite principle, which is we're going to have to live with some guilty people getting off so that no innocent person goes to prison.

[810] That's the ideal that we've kind of all collectively agreed upon for, you know, 300, years.

[811] So for me, that is hard to know that someone's going to go down that's innocent.

[812] I don't know why.

[813] That's really hard for me to swallow.

[814] No, it's fucked up.

[815] But what I'm saying is that it's like it's like the conversation in South Africa right now.

[816] It's like white farmers that there's the Nazi propaganda is that white farmers are being genocided.

[817] It's white genocide going to South Africa because people would take a retribution for the, for the land that has been stolen.

[818] It's like there are going to be some innocent white farmers that are going to get killed in South Africa is going to happen.

[819] You know how many innocent black farmers have been killed?

[820] You know how many innocent black people?

[821] So when you look at the numbers game, it's just a fact of life that I don't know how you guys believe in karma.

[822] You know what I'm saying?

[823] But it's karma.

[824] It's chickens coming home to roost.

[825] Yeah.

[826] So, so yes, what's often at play is that there are contradictory motives that we all have.

[827] So even our constitution in this country, we are based both in liberty and we're based in equality.

[828] Both of those are explicitly stated goals.

[829] And often those two things are in direct opposition.

[830] Yeah.

[831] And so we are never going to get 100 % liberty, nor are we going to get 100 % equality because we have two, you know, we have conflicting principles we're trying to pay service to.

[832] So this, this little pendulum is swinging back and forth between liberty and equality and right.

[833] And it can't be in one place.

[834] And likewise, you're bringing up something, which I agree with, which is a utilitarian view of the world, which is, at the end of the day, if this results in change, yes, some innocent white farmers die, a ton of black folks died.

[835] It's all going to come out in the wash. I will agree with that statement.

[836] But at the same time, I will then have a Kantian view of the world and go, no, one innocent man cannot go to prison.

[837] I do not accept that.

[838] So I have, you know, I'm juggling two different, almost opposing philosophies.

[839] I'm the same as you.

[840] I am the same as you.

[841] and it's like there's going to be times when when it's unpopular like Aziz Ansari is a great example where his story came out his people he was accused and our culture is like you believe the victim immediately that's what you're supposed to do but when you look at the blog what was it babe .net what kind of peer reviewed is this blog that the story's on the person's anonymous when you look at that site every other story is a gossip story so it's like it's not like that came out in New York Times and the person gave their name.

[842] So can it be credible?

[843] Well, does Aziz add credibility to it?

[844] Because he definitely did text this woman back.

[845] And you know what I'm saying?

[846] But did he pursue.

[847] So it's like all these things.

[848] And I think it's definitely his word versus hers.

[849] None of us were there.

[850] But at what point, but that's really the conversation is like, at what point does it become credible?

[851] Does it become credible, credible on the accusation?

[852] Yes.

[853] Or do we actually look at the facts?

[854] And I think that's really with the conversation.

[855] Well, and also let's add this.

[856] This is something that I don't.

[857] ever here brought up, which I think about all the time.

[858] If you and I leave here right now and we go to the grocery store and we spend an hour there and you ask us a week later what happened in that grocery store, I will promise you, you and I will have a completely different experience because I have all these triggers, right?

[859] I have fears.

[860] So I think, you know, I grew up going to special ed.

[861] I think people think I'm stupid.

[862] So I'll remember this moment between the cashier and I that I interpreted as him thinking I was too dumb to find my credit card.

[863] You would have not seen that, right?

[864] It's a totally different because I am so imprisoned by my lens that it is my I am telling you the truth and you are telling the truth and that is hard for us to acknowledge that two people can both be telling the truth and those things not meet up or jive it doesn't mean one person's lying it means that one person had a much different experience yeah and aziz is very cool I think he's handled this in a great way which is like when she started saying that was really disturbing to me it to me it seemed like he pretty much said, wow, I had such a different experience.

[865] I'm sorry, let's talk about this.

[866] Right.

[867] Which I think is about as good as you can do in that moment.

[868] And also his personality that he's developed to his comedy.

[869] Yeah.

[870] And his show.

[871] Yeah.

[872] You know, I mean, he plays Tom Haverford and he plays Randy and he plays these, these sort of misogynistic characters to make fun of them.

[873] Yeah.

[874] And a stand -up, a lot of his stand -up is awkward moments with women.

[875] Yeah.

[876] Awkward hookup moments.

[877] Awkward dating moments.

[878] And so it went, it went that, that, that, that, that, exchange was like the sort of like the doppelganger version of him if you're to believe everything happened.

[879] What I want to talk about is that in 1993, I graduated in 93 as well.

[880] In about 91 or 92, I'm discovering Jazz and Mattaz, which I think you and I bonded on when I came and see you two times ago.

[881] Donald Bird, that opened me up to Donald Bird.

[882] I went down a Donald Bird rabbit hole.

[883] I'm also loving De La Sol in 91, right?

[884] Maybe three feet rising comes out.

[885] And I am, they're fucking sampled a Steely Dan.

[886] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[887] I know.

[888] Yeah, things are happening at that moment.

[889] And that's right when you're kind of coming of age as an artist writer, you're starting to go, oh, I'm going to do this, right?

[890] A very golden kind of period for you, right?

[891] Yeah, definitely.

[892] That stuff all in form, what music you chose to do.

[893] Absolutely.

[894] That's absolutely it.

[895] Those are the artists that I was looking up to.

[896] Did you like Arrested Development?

[897] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[898] Yeah.

[899] Oh, God.

[900] And then obviously you like Tribe Cult Quest, I'm sure, a ton.

[901] And so is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, was it helpful to have those examples because I touched on it earlier, which was at that time, what was being monetized at, to great success is the kind of gangbanger lifestyle.

[902] Well, that, that whole hip -hop aesthetic was that, that 90s error, uh, Dr. Drey and Snoop Dogg are probably the most popular act from hip -hop in the early 90s.

[903] They broke through on MTV in a way that nobody else did.

[904] Yeah.

[905] Um, but tropical quest went platinum.

[906] Cypressill went platinum.

[907] Das Effects went platinum.

[908] Gangstar, nicest move.

[909] These were De La Sol.

[910] Everybody went platinum.

[911] Yeah.

[912] These are platinum million seller, two million, three million, several million, So it's an underground aesthetic, but it was going just as platinum as the gangster stuff was back then.

[913] Right.

[914] You have your exact same career in 1980 or 90.

[915] You're selling a ton of albums, right?

[916] Album sales have just precipitously fallen off since those days.

[917] Yeah, people don't buy records.

[918] So the money is in touring.

[919] That becomes the business.

[920] The money's always been in touring.

[921] because even when people did buy records, they were paying the record company, not the artist.

[922] And so the artists who became entrepreneurs and had their own labels who were really getting paid are few and far between.

[923] As a matter of fact, on the Forbes list that just came out, the three highest paid musicians right now in the world are Jay -Z, Diddy, and Dr. Drain.

[924] All people who were smart enough to go independent 20 years ago.

[925] Death Row, I saw a great documentary on them.

[926] Yeah, and at one point they had $500 million.

[927] This is a defiant one.

[928] Well, that one was fucking phenomenal.

[929] I didn't see it yet.

[930] Oh.

[931] You haven't?

[932] I haven't.

[933] So it's in my cue.

[934] I haven't watched it yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

[935] This is my, this is the highest compliment I can pay to things.

[936] And I often will like email someone I've seen their work.

[937] When you make something that makes me feel like a piece of shit, like a useless, unproductive, ungrieved piece of shit, I'm like, that's a good documentary.

[938] Because I watch the Defiant ones and I'm like, you're a loser.

[939] What are you doing with your life?

[940] Just so impressive all the stories that they go through.

[941] I think you'd really dig it as a musician too.

[942] because even like Bruce Springsteen, who of course I've respected, I didn't really know what his work program was, his work.

[943] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[944] And you know, Jimmy Iveen.

[945] I love the boss.

[946] Yeah, and Jimmy Iveen was really educated through recording an album.

[947] Right, with Springsteen.

[948] Yes, in learning that work ethic.

[949] And things like that I really pick up that I love.

[950] It's like, well, I can never sing like Bruce Springsteen.

[951] I can't do these things.

[952] But boy, I can't have that work ethic.

[953] Minimally, I should have that work ethic.

[954] Right.

[955] You have that work ethic.

[956] This is your 16th album that you're out on two.

[957] were with right now radio silence yes how are you so prolific how do you stay creatively kind of inspired um i love it i love it i love it i would be doing it whether i was successful at it or not yeah um i've i didn't start to make money you and i have fans i started because i love it so that's really inspiration and then i'm rewarded from it because i can pay my bills yeah i can raise my kids so on top of loving it there people do things because they're rewarded and i'm i'm greatly rewarded for participating in hippie and your first success is black star is that Yeah.

[958] Fair to say?

[959] And how do you know most deaf?

[960] Can I just tell you how much anxiety I get when I say certain names?

[961] Even your name scares the fuck out of me. It wasn't until I went and saw you and saw your friends were calling you Kual.

[962] Right.

[963] And I was like, ooh, qual, that's easy for me. I wonder if one day I'll just be able to call Kual.

[964] Anyway, most deaf.

[965] Am I saying that right?

[966] Yeah, yeah.

[967] He's now Yassine Bay.

[968] But, you know, he's still answers to Most Def.

[969] I was a fan of his.

[970] He was a guy who he had a record called a group called Urban Thermal Dynamics.

[971] And then he had a single as Most Def.

[972] and he was just a local, a local hero.

[973] Malcolm Jamal Warner had a spin -all show from the Cosby show where Theo's character was a teacher at some school.

[974] Yeah.

[975] And most was a character on it.

[976] It was a Dion Sanders American Express commercial where most was in the commercial.

[977] This is before our career started.

[978] Yeah.

[979] So he was like a local guy makes good.

[980] So he's acting and...

[981] He's acting.

[982] He has, you know, he's on the Cosby Mysteries at this time.

[983] You know, he had a real close relationship with the whole with Cosby and that crew.

[984] And he just was a guy in Brooklyn who would freestyle in a park with us.

[985] But then leave and go have a job.

[986] Uh -huh.

[987] You know, and all of us were broken.

[988] None of us had, were working.

[989] He's being paid to rap and act at the time when I was just a teenager doing it.

[990] Yeah.

[991] And is, is he your mentor at that point?

[992] To a certain degree, I've learned so, yeah, no, he's special.

[993] I've learned so much from him.

[994] I, I learned how to record from him.

[995] I learned stagecraft from him.

[996] I learned my worth from him.

[997] He would walk into meetings and be like, we need X amount of dollars.

[998] And I would look at him like, shit the fuck up.

[999] Because I'm like, what are you doing?

[1000] And they would give it to him.

[1001] And I'd be like, oh, shit.

[1002] shit we're worth that much yeah you know saying so i learned even how to just stay in my ground in a business meeting for most of it and is the black star um experience zero to 60 or is it a slow burn no it was it was pretty much zero it was it was um he became a fan of mine because he was coming to the bookstore that i was working at okay i was giving him books to read and then our we had children at the same time our are the mothers of our children became friends so i started hanging out with him at his house but i'm still a fan yeah so i would like leave demo tapes at his house you know and then one day he called me he was like I listened to your demo tape and it was really good and we started making we made a song together and when we made he was signed to Raucus at the time we made a song together I took the song that we made to Raucus and they were like we can put this out I played him a bunch of my solo stuff they didn't like any of it I played them song I had with most deaf they're like this is a money maker you know and people really it's called Fortify Live people like the song so much that when I was performing at open mics most would show up when he was doing shows I would show up and we developed this camaraderie on stage that predated the Black Star thing but the people at Rourkeus noticed it they were like they were going to put out a record with me a Hot Sack and our most deaf record but they said they asked us to make a record together to sort of put our names out there more and that's when we came with the idea of Black Star so it took about a year to record we dropped it and from the time we dropped it it was treated like an actual rap record you know and it was like I don't...

[1003] How old were you?

[1004] 20 maybe 21 Holy fuck.

[1005] What happens to your ego at that point um my ego didn't really take off until three four years later okay it took three four years to be like i'm the shit yeah yeah but back then i was so tricky to give young people right uh a level of success it's there's no training for that right yeah see i was we were famous but we weren't making a lot of money okay and i still never i've never you know i've never made a million dollars and in this i mean i've over time i've had but i'm not i'm a i'm a working class musician, you know, you could probably, you know, go to be a dentist and make more than me, you know what I'm saying?

[1006] Like, you know what I'm saying?

[1007] Like, it's a yoga.

[1008] That's another great Chris Rock joke.

[1009] Yeah, you know, it's like, you could be an average dentist.

[1010] Yeah, that's, that's absolutely, that's absolutely correct.

[1011] But what I have is cultural currency.

[1012] I can walk into any room I want to walk into.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] I can walk in any party I want to walk into.

[1015] And what I have that most working class people don't have, the privilege of being a celebrity is even though I'm a working class musician, I can just go out there and create money, whereas working class people have to wait five years to build up.

[1016] I can be like, okay, I'm going to go do this deal.

[1017] And you also have something that could only occur to you in retrospect, which is by not being the brightest flame in the lineup, you also didn't burn out.

[1018] Right.

[1019] It's not like your, you know, Vanilla Ice has this one song that catches the zeitgeist.

[1020] Right.

[1021] And there's nothing there beyond that.

[1022] Like you just have this, you know, super deep bench of work and always being relevant.

[1023] And that weirdly in the end can shock you of like, oh, that was the right lane to be in maybe.

[1024] Right.

[1025] And it brings it back to the De La Souls and the gangstars of the world.

[1026] You know, everyone has like, I have two or three hit records.

[1027] But I'm not considered a one hit wonder.

[1028] Right.

[1029] I am by people who only pay attention to mainstream.

[1030] Like the white supremac who troll me on Twitter, they'd be like, you only have one hit like you don't even pay attention to music you know what I'm right right but to people pay I'm not a one hit wonder because that one hit whether it's get by or hot thing or the blast that was parlayed into developing a cult fan base that's what blew my mind on Wednesday which is you do this cool thing where you go if you were born in the 70s put your hands up of course I have to sadly put my hand up and then you go if you know if the 80s and I'm thinking oh well there'll be people here in the 80s oh shit there's more people in the 80s and then you do 90s and that was almost the same as the 80s.

[1031] And then you do 2000s and there's like a fucking 18 year old kid in the audience.

[1032] And I was like that, that is very unique.

[1033] Also crazy diverse crowd.

[1034] Yeah.

[1035] I'm proud of that crowd.

[1036] Yeah.

[1037] It's really cool.

[1038] Mostly thinkers, I would say.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] If I could just kind of generalize what I thought I was seeing.

[1041] Yeah.

[1042] There seemed to be a lot of thinkers.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] I think that my music attracts thinking people.

[1045] But you're now, you're touring and so you say like, three years later, there has to be a point when you're young that you're like, my God, I am the fucking shit and everyone loves me. And this is going to be a rocket ship to...

[1046] There was a time I was in a club in New York on A Street called 40 Flavors.

[1047] And most deaf just reminded me of this recently when we just did a show, just did a sold -out show in Denver.

[1048] He's like, remember we were sitting in that club and I turned to you and we were in a VIP section in the club and we were like drinking champagne.

[1049] I was like, quality, we're rap stars.

[1050] I definitely remember when he said that.

[1051] Uh -huh.

[1052] You know what I'm saying?

[1053] So it was just, definitely like a thing that we vocalize between each other.

[1054] Yeah.

[1055] And you're also in a place, and I don't even know if you could have awareness of this because you've only been, you've only lived there.

[1056] But New York in particular has a really, if you're famous or if you have cultural capital in New York, it's a much different experience.

[1057] Like it really, the whole city can open up to you.

[1058] Because I used to go there all the time as someone who was not famous.

[1059] And then one time I went there, I was filming an episode of punk for some reason.

[1060] Ashton was hanging out with Puffy all the time.

[1061] Do you want to come?

[1062] I remember that era.

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] And all of a sudden, I am in this long chain of SUVs and we're going in and out of places.

[1065] And the places is stopping and no one has to pay a thing.

[1066] All these things.

[1067] And I am, now this is an experience.

[1068] Now, this does not happen in L .A. It's not like we could, you and I could get in some town cars and just start cruising around and be celebrated and not pay a bill.

[1069] But this was happening.

[1070] Like, there's this weird kind of like neat history of New York where it's like they like their sonatras.

[1071] They like their Billy Joles.

[1072] They like, you know.

[1073] Puff thinks of himself.

[1074] as to black Frank Sinatra.

[1075] Yes, yes.

[1076] He seems to think that.

[1077] He really thinks that and he mentioned it in the get him to the Greek movie.

[1078] He's like, I'm Frank.

[1079] Why am I Sammy?

[1080] I'm Frank Sinatra.

[1081] Yeah, yeah.

[1082] So it is even, it could be even more confusing because that city in particular.

[1083] You will find yourself in a VIP section drinking champagne at 26 years old where you, that's probably not going to happen other places.

[1084] And so what does that do to your head?

[1085] Does that make you less patient with?

[1086] real life with with girlfriends with wives with kids i was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's a writer here in hollywood um just yesterday and she was telling me how when she deals with artists artists have everything revolving around them and i was like yeah that's accurate and it's hard to explain that to people who are not doing art for a living because it's in a lot of ways you have to do it and when you try to explain that you have to move like that it sounds callous It sounds out of touch.

[1087] I started my career working for Diddy.

[1088] Oh, you did?

[1089] Yeah, handing out flyers and going to parties.

[1090] So, like, you know, Funkmaster Flex and Diddy, like, these are the guys I was around when I first, before I got known as a rapper.

[1091] Uh -huh.

[1092] When Diddy sees me now, he's remembering me from when I used to hand up flyers for his parties.

[1093] Yeah, yeah.

[1094] And go get your shoes shine box.

[1095] Yeah.

[1096] He never sent us to juniors or nothing like that.

[1097] But what's interesting is there was a point in my career where me and most dead.

[1098] and everybody else wrong.

[1099] We were known for conscious music.

[1100] We're known to Beatles underground cats.

[1101] And because I came from the Diddy era, I never was comfortable with that label.

[1102] So I would go out of my way, and I do it less now as a 43 -year -old man. But I, you know, I was the party fucking king for like 10, 15 years.

[1103] You didn't go to a party in New York or anywhere in L .A. And, I mean, they used to throw these parties out here with Zini.

[1104] Zini parties.

[1105] Like, I used to bring Prince out to the party here in L .A. I would go to, I would go to, to the box.

[1106] In London, you know, like I was the party fucking king.

[1107] I'd buy out the bar.

[1108] I'd buy out the VIP.

[1109] I'm bringing all my friends in.

[1110] And it was almost like a way to tell myself, tell fit, to not put myself in the box.

[1111] Oh, yeah, I'm going to show up at the rally.

[1112] I'm going to be an activist, but I'm also going to turn up and you can't put me in that box.

[1113] Yes.

[1114] It was a focus of mine to go to all the parties and be seen.

[1115] And that was just, that was also, you know, I've grown more into my own skin.

[1116] I don't have feel the need to do that no more.

[1117] But I definitely spent a lot of years buying us.

[1118] a lot of champagne and a lot of bottles of him trying to prove that I could out drink and out party everybody.

[1119] Yeah.

[1120] And is it, don't you think that's a product of we just as, I think because we are these social animals that were designed to live in these large groups that we are very, very consumable status.

[1121] We cannot divorce ourselves from it because that's how there's alpha, beta, gamma, you know, all these things.

[1122] And so invariably, you're always comparing yourself to somebody because there's a certain level of anxiety when you're in a group of people and you don't know who's who who's the alpha in this situation you know who's the boss who's this and you're so you're you're always comparing yourself to people uh because you're you're fucking hardwired to do that uh that how could you not be comparing yourself to all these other people that do the same job as you yeah i definitely came into the business competition minded i looked at everyone even my friends as competition yeah and and not in a personal way or a bad way but just like okay you In an inspirational way.

[1123] Yeah.

[1124] Okay, that's what he's doing.

[1125] I can do that better.

[1126] If I carve a Mount Rushmore, Bill Murray's on it, David Letterman's on it, Jay -Z's on it, I just, I couldn't be more obsessed with that person.

[1127] Jay -Z is a good person to be obsessed with.

[1128] And he, say the line, he said in one of his songs.

[1129] He said, if skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be lyrically Talib Kuali, which is one of the highest compliments I've been paid in my career.

[1130] It was great.

[1131] I just got goosebumps when you said that.

[1132] Yeah, well, if you remember back then, he was saying he was retiring.

[1133] Uh -huh.

[1134] This was a black album that he said this on.

[1135] Oh, right.

[1136] Okay.

[1137] He said this in my last album.

[1138] And on his last album, on a song called Moment of Clarity, where the first song is about, first verse about his father, which Jay -Z never talked about his father in his whole career.

[1139] Mm -hmm.

[1140] His second verse, he's talking about me in common.

[1141] Uh -huh.

[1142] I'm studying Jay -Z at this point.

[1143] Jay -Z at this point, and when he said at 2004, he's the side guys, he is the culture.

[1144] Yes.

[1145] It doesn't get bigger or better than Jay -Z.

[1146] He's walked the line And what Jayzee's talent is He's equally as good At being an MC as he is as a businessman Well, yeah Which is rare You know, you see a guy I heard Nas made $40 million Recently on some thing Nause is different Nause spent his career Being a great MC He didn't focus on the business Yeah He focused on rap When he became a grown man Now he's like, okay Now I'm gonna invest And I'm gonna be this great businessman Yeah Z started out Like his first rhyme Was like a better trip to Vegas You know what I'm saying Like he's starting out Like I'm going to Vegas on my first album.

[1147] Yes.

[1148] You know, and at the point in his career where Jay Z was, you couldn't get better than Jay Z and he's like, I'm going to stop.

[1149] And he's thinking about me and he's thinking about comment.

[1150] Yeah.

[1151] That fucked me up.

[1152] And it made me feel like I was doing the right thing.

[1153] Does that not just cement?

[1154] Yeah, exactly that going like, I found my right lane and I should stay in it because I was just told by somebody that I was someone I didn't even think thought about me or no. Yes.

[1155] Isn't that, so that to me happened with you, which is I'm obsessed with you I have been for a long time I was just trying to think today how I even probably got turned on to you but you did one of those red hot albums yeah that must be where I found you although I'd like Black Star but I didn't It's interesting because with that red hot thing I'm writing this book that red heart thing is as I'm proud of participating those albums is a very small small small footnote but those red hot albums must have meant a lot to people New York is red hot yeah like my my editor for my book I turned in the book I was telling about 40 chapters.

[1156] He's like, can you write more about the red hot thing?

[1157] And I'm like, what?

[1158] Because it's a tiny little moment.

[1159] Yeah, but it means a lot to a lot of people, obviously.

[1160] It does.

[1161] I think because, you know, what had happened is I think I went down to Jasmine and Taz rabbit hole.

[1162] And somehow it just ended up into, and that stuff had a lot of jazz fusion stuff going on in it.

[1163] Red Hat of Africa with Thelah.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] And I think that's how I found you.

[1166] So I'm obsessed with you.

[1167] Of course, I'm just assuming for no good reason, although now I've come.

[1168] to realize a lot of rappers are super into comedy for whatever reason.

[1169] Yeah, there's a marriage there.

[1170] Yeah, I don't know what it is.

[1171] But like Kanye's always at Largo and shit seeing kind of underground comedy, right?

[1172] He's friends with Aziz.

[1173] He loves comedy.

[1174] So it makes more sense to me now.

[1175] But at any way, yeah, I followed you on Twitter for a long time.

[1176] And then I think I just kind of said something on commented on something.

[1177] And then you wrote me something really nice.

[1178] And then you said, oh, I've seen most of the shit you're in.

[1179] And I was like, that same thing.

[1180] I was like, this is not possible.

[1181] This can't be.

[1182] How could this human being who I look up to?

[1183] aware of me this is weird can't resist those uh those butterflies of being recognized by people i look up to i think i first noticed you i've seen i saw you on punked but i think i first noticed you in adiocracy right and i followed mike judge from like you know early beavers and buddhead stuff and i was just like anything mike judge did i would just watch over and over again yeah you know i just i just you know your range was very impressive to me from for the first time your range i know it's focused on funny characters but it's like it's just an incredible range man oh thank you uh here's what you've worked with conier right and i've met him i i i sometimes will will will defend him he doesn't want me to but i will defend him with a certain theory i have and i want you to weigh in on it which is if you look through recent history of the most influential musicians we've had I believe generally they were people who saw the world differently.

[1184] That's why they were able to create something new.

[1185] And I think you pay a toll for seeing the world differently.

[1186] I agree.

[1187] I think it can be painful.

[1188] It's uncomfortable to be out of step with everyone around you.

[1189] So you're out of step with everyone around you.

[1190] You have this unique point of view.

[1191] And everyone else seems to be on the same page about all these things.

[1192] And there's a lot of discomfort that comes with that.

[1193] there's an amazing art that comes out of that.

[1194] And so I have defended Kanye sometimes going, this guy is in arguably a genius.

[1195] He really has a unique, unique point of view in life.

[1196] Yeah, I think Kanye is my defense for Kanye, and it's interesting that Kanye is so great, but we always have to defend him.

[1197] Sure, sure.

[1198] You know what I'm saying?

[1199] My defense for Kanye is, Kanye is so self -aware, is so sure of himself, is so confident that he makes people who don't have their confidence feel uncomfortable.

[1200] you know and and he's so he has conviction his because he has so much conviction that if you don't stand for something you feel really uncomfortable yeah people that lash out against Kanye are people with no convictions they're people who stand in the shadows like Seth McFarlane said like I'm not the hero I'm the guy who's in the audience making fun of the hero shirt yes and I think that's how Kanye is always the hero yeah in the story and I've their Kanye said a lot of things that I disagree with sure and he said a lot of things I agree with the only thing that I pushed back on that I will say in public that I'm like that one thing, it's one thing he did that I did not agree with, was him showing a slight amount of support for Trump and visiting Trump.

[1201] That's the only thing.

[1202] I didn't even know.

[1203] Oh, you didn't know about this?

[1204] Yeah, can you visited Trump the week that Trump got in the office?

[1205] That's so punk rock though, you have to admit.

[1206] I mean, that is so against what's expected.

[1207] Yeah, and I think that's why he did.

[1208] I mean, he dyed his hair blonde and he did it.

[1209] He showed up with blonde hair.

[1210] Yeah, and I think he had a plan.

[1211] I think he had a plan.

[1212] I think he had a plan.

[1213] As an art installation, that's brilliant.

[1214] Yeah, yeah.

[1215] If you could look at it from 30 ,000 feet and go like, if this is a fucking art installation, this is next level.

[1216] It's a Mandy Kaufman shit.

[1217] I, Weirdly got in trouble for that.

[1218] He weirdly said he kind of regretted that S &L monologue a little bit.

[1219] I was with him at that moment, by the way, too.

[1220] I was like, well, fuck it, man. This is what we got.

[1221] Let's give him a chance.

[1222] Yeah, he regretted saying that.

[1223] Yeah, in a little while I was like, and Kanye regretted visiting Trump.

[1224] And he deleted all his Trump tweets.

[1225] But that's what I think it is.

[1226] The same with Steve Harvey.

[1227] I saw Steve Harvey talk about, why is everybody mad at me?

[1228] Like, motherfucker, like, what are you doing?

[1229] Like, you can't fuck with Trump.

[1230] I know you get Miss Universe money with him.

[1231] You know what I'm like, but I think what it is is that whether it's Cressette Michelle, who was an artist who went to sing for Trump and the community got mad at her, when you're that level of famous, you have a bubble around you, you're not participating on the Twitter discussions.

[1232] You're not on the Facebook.

[1233] You're not on the ground with the activist.

[1234] I have a unique perspective because I'm on the ground with the activists.

[1235] Yeah.

[1236] My famous friends were famous like a Kanye or Steve Harvey or something like that.

[1237] They're not aware of the language that's being spoken on.

[1238] So when we're on Twitter sharing stories about Trump said black people are lazy, Trump said this, Trump, they're not paying attention to that.

[1239] If you're famous in this country for a certain amount of time, you've been in a room with Donald Trump.

[1240] If you shook in his hand and you've taken a picture with him.

[1241] And that's your extended spirit.

[1242] You know him from the celebrity apprentice.

[1243] You're not really aware of his housing problem or that his father was in a KKK.

[1244] That's for the people on Twitter and Facebook.

[1245] So these celebrities, they're in these bubble.

[1246] and they they think that they are different.

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] So that's what it is.

[1249] It's just being unaware.

[1250] Well, you also, I mean, this is the mistake I make.

[1251] I often think that I understand the other side better than I do, or that I'm more centrist than I maybe am.

[1252] And I think, oh, I can be the person that actually conveys our point to them.

[1253] Like, I'm in the middle enough that maybe they'll listen to me. And I'm always wrong about that.

[1254] That's an interesting admission.

[1255] Because that right there is the central problem with centrist thought.

[1256] Is that too often when you, when you're, when your goal is I'm an absolutist for free speech and I'm a centrist, you, you, you often find yourself unwillingly, unintentionally, aligning with people who are using centrism and using free speech for some utter bullshit.

[1257] You, I want to know why, because someone I, I like, as much as you, is Sam Harris.

[1258] And are you in some kind of Sam Harris war?

[1259] I do not like Sam Harris at all.

[1260] We talk about him all the time on this podcast.

[1261] We do, we do, we do.

[1262] And I will not make an apology to him about that I love you and or will I make an apology to you that I love him.

[1263] But what is your guys' beef?

[1264] I'm only aware of it's kind of layered.

[1265] Okay.

[1266] First off, I'm not an atheist.

[1267] Right.

[1268] I'm someone who has a belief in God and my belief in God is strong enough to whereas I don't call it a belief.

[1269] I feel like I know God.

[1270] It's not the God of the white beard and the heavens that's looking on.

[1271] It's that thing that connects all of living things.

[1272] The fact that I breathe in oxygen, I breathe out carbon dioxide, the trees take that in, they create oxygen.

[1273] It's that symbiotic between all living things.

[1274] That to me is God.

[1275] Not the Bible.

[1276] Disclaimer, some of my best friends who are super smart are atheists.

[1277] In general, I feel like to arrive at atheism, you have to be pretty smart.

[1278] And you have to have paid attention enough to see the flaws in religion.

[1279] to be able to call it out.

[1280] Too often atheism, and the atheism that I'm talking about is not the old school classic atheism because I think classic atheism is I don't believe in God, I'm not infringing on what you believe.

[1281] I just choose not to believe in a myth or a fairy tale.

[1282] I can understand that, and I agree with that.

[1283] The problem is that you have a generation of new atheists that are influenced by Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and all these people, the people that Bill Maher loves.

[1284] Yeah.

[1285] You know, and he's one of them.

[1286] Do you like Bill Maher?

[1287] I like 80 % of him.

[1288] I feel like he can be, he goes too hard on the Muslims.

[1289] And I feel like he's, he's moved into like sort of the white nationalist ideal of atheism away from where he was when he did religious, which was more all encompassing.

[1290] I'm going to critique each religion equally.

[1291] He's moved to this, no, Islam is really worse than everything else.

[1292] And that to me is not based on a working knowledge of Islam, but is based on prejudice against brown people.

[1293] It's the same reason why Sikhs and people who are not Muslims get beat up by Islamophobes because they think they're Muslim because they're wearing a turban.

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] You know, I think that the rhetoric that St. Chris Hitchens and sometimes Bill Maher and these people, it adds to that.

[1296] And these are older, rich, white men, you know, and they're not dealing with being profiled.

[1297] Sam Harris won't get profiled in the airport.

[1298] No. So when Sam Harris writes a blog called In Defense of Profiling, he's defending racism.

[1299] Because what he's saying is, is that based on stereotypes.

[1300] So really quick, was that the trigger?

[1301] Well, no. So that wasn't a trigger.

[1302] I didn't know anything about Sam Harris.

[1303] I just knew that recently, I get attacked by white supremac groups online.

[1304] And at first it's like anime stands and then it's like MMA stands.

[1305] And then it was one, there's this Majid nois stands, right?

[1306] Guys who like this, this, this, this, this Muslim guy, ex -Muslim Majid, who is propped up by white nationalist groups as the anti -Islam guy.

[1307] Well, look, this guy used to be a radical Islamist and now he's down with us.

[1308] Yeah.

[1309] He's propped up by.

[1310] Sam Harris.

[1311] So these white supremacist trolls, they use Majid because he's a brown person and try to weaponize him against me. Yeah.

[1312] I didn't know anything about Majid.

[1313] I read up on him.

[1314] I'm like, yeah, I don't agree with him either.

[1315] Okay.

[1316] Majid jumps in and starts trolling me along with these white supremac.

[1317] And then, no, white supremac.

[1318] And he's getting his money and his backing from Sam Harris.

[1319] Well, he was on Bill Maher.

[1320] He famously argued with Ben Affleck.

[1321] Right.

[1322] I saw that video.

[1323] Sam Harris, the first tweet he ever sent me, he called me an estuary.

[1324] J .W. An S .J .W. Yes.

[1325] An S .J .W. is a social justice warrior.

[1326] It's a term that gained popularity on 4chan and Reddit and a white supremacist Daily, Stormfront, Ben Shapiro, Dairy Wire.

[1327] It's the all right term that's meant to disparage people who fight for social justice.

[1328] I don't want you to lose your rhythm, but your retention of names is pretty astounding.

[1329] Have you been having that, Monica?

[1330] Yeah.

[1331] Or I'm like, God damn.

[1332] If I can hold on as many names as you can.

[1333] It's really.

[1334] Incredible.

[1335] But so SJW, yes, because what you're saying is, you're saying that there's something wrong with social justice.

[1336] The people who use that term, they're quick to back it by saying, I'm not dissing real social justice workers.

[1337] I'm dissing the regressive left, which is a term made up by Sam Harris.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] He made up that term.

[1340] He's the inventor that term.

[1341] So I'm dissing the regressive left that doesn't really do social justice just is trying to trigger right -wing people.

[1342] The problem with that is that when someone makes that critique, you ask them to point out their social justice work and they can never do it.

[1343] So if you're going to critique me saying I'm a fake social justice person, you better walk to walk.

[1344] You better show me your social justice work and none of these people could do it.

[1345] So Sam Harris in his first tweet to me called me an S .JW and said I was a part of the regressive left.

[1346] These are alt -right racist terms.

[1347] Sam Harris has aligned himself with the alt -right.

[1348] When he interviews Charles Murray.

[1349] He would disagree with that.

[1350] I know he would, but he's wrong.

[1351] He's a liar.

[1352] Well, hold on.

[1353] Hold on.

[1354] But let me finish.

[1355] Let me finish.

[1356] So Sam Harris, when he writes, when he's calling a black activist, and SJW and a part of the regressive left terms that are employed by Nazis and white supremac when he's writing a blog saying in defense of profiling and saying we shouldn't profile the 80 year or white lady but we should profile the brown guy my name is Talib Kuali I get profiled from being black and have a Muslim name you're a white boy named Sam Harris until you go through what I go through don't fucking defend profiling you can't defend profiling even law enforcement agencies saying we don't catch criminals from profiling When you defend profiling, you're defending stop and frisk.

[1357] You're defending things that put my life at risk.

[1358] So when you're calling me regressive left, when you're defending profiling, when you bring on your podcast, Charles Murray, the author of the bell curve.

[1359] And you listen to that episode by you?

[1360] No, because I don't, I don't fuck with Charles Murray.

[1361] Right.

[1362] Charles Murray is a racist that's using Nazi anti -diversity methods.

[1363] He's saying that IQ is a correct measure of intelligence, which is not.

[1364] Right.

[1365] And he's saying that black people naturally have lower IQs.

[1366] If you give a platform to that guy, I can't fuck with you.

[1367] Well, okay, boy, I don't really want to defend Charles Murray, but I listen to him on the Sam Harris thing.

[1368] And I would say what you're saying differs from what he's saying is we're doing all of this broad testing and IQs.

[1369] And I now have data.

[1370] And do I as a scientist pretend I don't have that data?

[1371] Sam was very critical of him of saying, I understand that point of view, but you must ask yourself at some point, but why?

[1372] what's the end goal right because I actually don't think Charles Murray is a racist well the end goal is to blame oppress people for their own oppression that's the goal to say that black people and people of color it's not our fault it's just science it's just biology why are you bad at white people it's just biology you're naturally not you have low 80 and when I get attacked on Twitter it's straight up Nazi accounts it's not let's not mince words here yeah it's people naming himself after Paul Neeland is people who are saying we need to we need to build the wall and kick all people call out the country.

[1373] They are the people that are quoting Charles Murray.

[1374] Charles Murray has been debunked by every science, scientist, scientific America, psychology today, Harvard, Yale, ever Stanford.

[1375] All of them are saying this guy's full of shit.

[1376] Yeah, I don't really trying to defend him.

[1377] I had a much different issue with it, unlike you.

[1378] I was willing to say, that's fine.

[1379] That might exist.

[1380] That might happen.

[1381] But maybe black folks do test lower.

[1382] They're saying Asian folks test higher.

[1383] And that's another, that's another Nazi point, the model minority myth.

[1384] See, what they do is, it's about putting, pitting Asian people against black people for the, for the sake of white supremacy.

[1385] The first thing that a lot of these white supremacists, all of them have Japanese anime avatars.

[1386] They always trot that one out.

[1387] Well, Asian people test higher.

[1388] Well, those are Asian people whose parents were rich.

[1389] You do recognize, though, that quite often good intention material gets weaponized by a group of people that they weren't really trying to service.

[1390] That happens all the time on the left and right.

[1391] Oh, absolutely.

[1392] But you also have to realize that when it comes to discuss an oppression, intention never matters results do well i'm with you i'm in a a and we say people aren't judging you by your intention they're in judging you by your actions of course i am in a position to do this because i'm a fucking tall white guy so let me first acknowledge that it the stakes of this argument aren't nearly as high it's funny it's funny you said tall because that's another thing that the nazi say to me as they say i have a low IQ they say quali is short clearly i'm not short but that becomes a talking point well i'm saying i'm most presidents have been tall not only am i man not only my white.

[1393] I'm also a tall man. So like you're naturally assuming I have more leadership qualities than maybe I do.

[1394] It's like the, it's like the Blues Brothers movie when they go to the bar to Bob's bunker and she goes, well, you're the tallest.

[1395] You must be in charge.

[1396] Right.

[1397] So let me just start by saying that.

[1398] I can I can evaluate this stuff from a very disengaged position because I'm not going to get pulled over because I'm driving a Mercedes in the middle of the night and get asked, what do I do for a living?

[1399] Right.

[1400] All that being said, what I was willing to think about at least being open enough to think about it like let's let's just for one second say that that was true that those results are true and that that test is even relevant scientifically let's just even say that this is hard for me to do that though because it's so culturally biased I'm with you so you might be right that that's not even I'm saying let's just assume for five seconds that what Charles Murray actually discovered is a real thing that's empirical and could be peer reviewed and everything for me I then went to a place, and this is where I was critical of the discussion with those two, was they are also in the same conversation admitting that intelligence is probably 50 % biological nature and 50 % nurture.

[1401] Can you go along with that?

[1402] I'm not enough of a scientist to speak a waxing.

[1403] Again, we would have to assume now that this is the case.

[1404] And so if you're acknowledging that 50 % of intelligence is nurture, and that black people are testing one standard deviation lower than white people, then all you have to prove is that the nurture in this country, socioeconomically, so little opportunities.

[1405] So all these elements, I definitely believe that the environment could be two standard deviations lower than what white people are dealing with.

[1406] To me, if I wanted just for five seconds, say that that's what's happening in these test scores, I at least now have the option of a solution, which is, okay, we need to figure out why in the black community, they're not getting what they need.

[1407] What are white kids getting that black kids aren't getting?

[1408] And now we need to fix that.

[1409] Because my baseline assumption as an anthropologist is there is no intelligence difference, right?

[1410] Yeah.

[1411] We're all just the same species and I don't buy that.

[1412] And so that's not an assumption.

[1413] That's not an assumption.

[1414] What do you mean?

[1415] It's the truth.

[1416] It's the truth.

[1417] Oh, yes.

[1418] From my point of view, that's the truth.

[1419] Yeah, I'm not, I'm not repelled by some disturbing information like that.

[1420] I go into the mode of, okay, well, I still circle back to the fact that I don't believe any race, which is even a terrible indicator of our differences, is dumber or smarter.

[1421] There's another explanation, and that explanation's worth finding so we can fix it.

[1422] Yeah, but see, that's a very privileged position to take, because when you say, because I don't have a luxury to take that position, because that's the same science, pseudoscience, that Nazis use to say, let's kill all the Jews.

[1423] That's the same science that KKK says, let's have Jim Crow and let's hang niggis.

[1424] So I don't have, I have the historical perspective.

[1425] In order for that to happen, you have to, one, suspend historical perspective, pretend history never existed, create this imaginary world of if and maybe possibly.

[1426] And then you also have to assume that Sam Harris and Charles Murray and Jordan Peterson and Richard Spencer and all these people who pushed that IQ bullshit, that they have black people's best interests in mind.

[1427] You have to assume that their intention is justice.

[1428] I can't assume their intention is justice.

[1429] I have to now not just assume, but look at the fact that this guy also wrote a blog on profiling.

[1430] I said profiling is okay.

[1431] I have to look at the fact that all the Nazis come to me and say, you have less intelligence because you're a black man and Charles Murray said so.

[1432] I have to look at the fact that they use that to justify exterminating people.

[1433] You know what I'm saying?

[1434] So it's like, it's like I. Owning folks.

[1435] Yeah, and owning people.

[1436] But when I was 19 years old working at in Kiru Books, the bell curve came out.

[1437] I was working at an African -American bookstore when the bell curve came out.

[1438] Our community, 20, I don't know how old Sam Harris is.

[1439] He's got to be in his 30s, right?

[1440] No. He's at our age.

[1441] So when I came out, like a lot of these young, new Nazi types who were at the United, right, they look up to Charles Murray.

[1442] They use Charles Murray, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Benchapier.

[1443] They used him as, see, look, these guys wear khakis and ties, and they're smart and they're educated.

[1444] Well, let me just also say both sides, both atheists and religious folks are also using Einstein quotes.

[1445] So suffice to say, Everyone can make any bit of thing fit their narrative.

[1446] Yeah, but there's, it's not, I can't really do the both sides thing.

[1447] Okay, that's fine.

[1448] I would feel, I would, I do feel compelled to tell you what I think Sam Harris's message is on Islam.

[1449] And tell me if you can see any truth of this statement.

[1450] which is the left has it wrong about Islam.

[1451] The right has it wrong about Muslims.

[1452] I disagree with that.

[1453] You do.

[1454] Because every single, that's that, and I've heard this argument before, because what they say is, I don't have a problem with Muslims.

[1455] I have a problem with Islam.

[1456] Uh -huh.

[1457] No, every Muslim follows Islam.

[1458] There is a difference between ideology and human beings.

[1459] Naziism is evil.

[1460] I don't think every German in 1938, was evil.

[1461] That's the false equivalence because every Muslim is Islamic.

[1462] Every German is not a Nazi.

[1463] Every Muslim does believe in Islam.

[1464] Well, every Nazi was a Nazi.

[1465] Every Nazi was a Nazi.

[1466] And the ideology was...

[1467] The equivalent would be ISIS.

[1468] I would have to believe in good and evil.

[1469] ISIS is the equivalent to Nazi.

[1470] Not Muslims.

[1471] People equate Muslims with Nazi things a lot.

[1472] If Muslims were like Nazis, there's billions of Muslims on the planet.

[1473] Well, I don't, I don't equate.

[1474] But I'm just saying, can you not be critical of an ideology and separate the human beings.

[1475] Oh, absolutely.

[1476] I'm not, I'm not religious.

[1477] I'm very critical religion as well.

[1478] Yeah, I am too.

[1479] And here's what I say.

[1480] Look, I like taking both sides of all these arguments.

[1481] If I'm around people who are super Islamicphobic, I will like to take your point of view.

[1482] And if I'm around you, I want to take this point of view.

[1483] So just know that this side, I would say, is if you look at Judaism, Judaism's the oldest, right?

[1484] It is 5 ,000 years old at this point.

[1485] And if you look at a significant percentage of the rabbi in Israel are atheists.

[1486] Okay.

[1487] And what you've seen...

[1488] How are you an atheist rabbis?

[1489] You believe in all the traditions.

[1490] You believe in the teachings.

[1491] You don't actually believe there's a God up there that ordained all this.

[1492] Okay.

[1493] So that's...

[1494] I dig that.

[1495] I think that's cool.

[1496] Like, you've kind of taken what you think are the great teachings of it and you don't actually fear a man up in the sky or that you're going to be sent to hell, right?

[1497] Okay.

[1498] So, again, on the outside of all three of these religions, I see that Judaism more than any other one has left the literal and become hugely metaphorical.

[1499] It is so metaphorical.

[1500] I'm friends with so many Jewish folks here that still will celebrate the holidays.

[1501] They'll do the baby naming.

[1502] But they don't actually, they've only kept it metaphorical.

[1503] And then if you look at...

[1504] But a lot of them are Zionists who believe in an ethno state and are not acknowledging the travesties.

[1505] Yes, but let's just say we're having this conversation pre -1945 because we could get bogged down in that.

[1506] But let's just say that it is pretty much a fact that Judaism and the old Testament has largely become now metaphorical.

[1507] They are the least literal interpreters of their text.

[1508] I think, I see, it's hard for me to say, let's pretend it's not, it's pre -1945.

[1509] To me, you're bringing something that has nothing to do with the topic I'm on.

[1510] I'm on a topic of charting religions, how literal they are to their text and how metaphorical they are.

[1511] Well, I think people are individuals.

[1512] They're Jewish people who are super literal.

[1513] And we could get bogged down in the exception or we could get down into the majority.

[1514] But where's the data?

[1515] to speak on the majority.

[1516] Like if we're going to speak on the majority of people...

[1517] Well, I'll tell you, the data is that 50 % of the rabbis are atheists.

[1518] That's pretty profound data.

[1519] And now if you look at...

[1520] But if you're an atheist and you're in Israel and you still support Israeli government policies that are saying they're doing it because we're doing this for Jewish people, can you really claim you're an atheist?

[1521] To those people, no. People who think they have a biblical claim on property, I think is a very literal interpretation.

[1522] So yes, if you're saying I have a biblical.

[1523] biblical right to this property.

[1524] A rabbi who's living in Israel is acting on that claim.

[1525] So if a rabbi, if you call yourself a rabbi and you live in Israel, you could say you an atheist.

[1526] I would, you'd have to leave Israel and not say you a rabbi for me to believe you.

[1527] For your definition of that.

[1528] Right.

[1529] But whatever, again, do you have a 5 ,000 year old religion that is, and you don't agree with this, is become the least literal of all the religions.

[1530] Then in the middle you have Christianity that is 2 ,000 years old.

[1531] And there, some of them are still pretty literal but largely I know tons and tons of Christians that are like yeah I'm not into hell I don't believe that you shouldn't lay with a man I don't blah blah blah it's getting less and less literal and that's just I think that's just a product of time and then you have the youngest of these made three religions which is Islam which is 1400 years old and I believe they are still more literal why are they more literal my hypothesis is it's a time thing I don't think it's a time thing I think it's because when you have no resources, the society becomes more literal.

[1532] I would say that America, we have the luxury of making anti -gay policy as opposed to cutting gay people's heads off and throwing them off the roof.

[1533] You know what I'm saying?

[1534] And the policy, we have an evangelical Christian lobby that for 50 years has been bombing poor brown Muslim people and justifying it by saying, you know, Jesus is coming back.

[1535] to that area.

[1536] You know what's worth of Muslim terrorists with a rocket bomb or a United States sending a drone?

[1537] Here's where I get a little frustrated, though.

[1538] Sometimes with this topic of Islam and terrorism and all this stuff, it is pointed out quite often that Christians are just as bad.

[1539] And to me, this is like when you get Christians, Jewish people, atheists, Buddhists, everybody.

[1540] You get Trump dead to rights on a thing.

[1541] And his response is, well, Bill Clinton did acts.

[1542] And it's like, well, no, motherfucker.

[1543] That may be true.

[1544] but we're talking about you in this moment in time.

[1545] If I lived during the Crusades, I'd be screaming from the rooftops.

[1546] This is fucking wrong.

[1547] I'm not talking about crusades.

[1548] I'm talking about right now.

[1549] Okay.

[1550] Because we can't divorce all contexts from it.

[1551] There's a context of the Muslim world.

[1552] There's a context of the Middle East and how poor brown people have retreated because of imperialism, because of Western imperialism, because of Christian imperialism.

[1553] And to say, it's pursuing oil.

[1554] Making that argument, well, Muslims are worse because it is.

[1555] It's the same argument.

[1556] Hold on.

[1557] Worse, now it's a pejorative.

[1558] Now we've stopped having an intellectual conversation and we're trying to label somebody good, evil.

[1559] But which word would you use?

[1560] Instead of worse.

[1561] Instead of worse.

[1562] I would say more literal.

[1563] I would say they still believe in jihad, a good percentage of them.

[1564] They still believe in fatwas a good percentage.

[1565] But this argument is made to justify, this argument is made for black people where I'm from to say, well, you know, what about black on black crime?

[1566] Well, why are black people more likely to do this?

[1567] And I think that is a cop out.

[1568] It's the same for Islam, though.

[1569] You can't divorce Jim Crow and slavery and what has happened to the black community for a group like the nation of Islam to come out of it.

[1570] For a group for, you know what I'm saying?

[1571] For there to be so much crime.

[1572] You can't divorce what's happened.

[1573] So you can't divorce what's happened from the region.

[1574] Like these people are bombed all the time.

[1575] So I can start with going, we are paying the bill.

[1576] We backed a totalitarian regime in Iran so that we could secure our oil interest there.

[1577] Right.

[1578] We do it all over the world.

[1579] Then they were overthrown by the Ayatollah.

[1580] Then the rest of the region gets so scared that their population is going to overthrow their monarchies.

[1581] Right.

[1582] So then you have Wahhabis or Wahhabism.

[1583] Yeah.

[1584] In Saudi Arabia, all of a sudden get embraced by that regime to prevent that.

[1585] So yes, you're looking at dominoes that started with us protecting oil.

[1586] So all that is true.

[1587] And unfortunately, I find that these arguments are, none of them are willing to blend what's true on both sides.

[1588] So you're saying a ton of true stuff.

[1589] There's a ton of geopolitical issues that are underpinning all this.

[1590] And we have to add that 1 .2 billion Muslims out of 1 .2 billion, the fraction of people who are radical Islamists, the problem is being radical.

[1591] The problem is not Islam.

[1592] Yes.

[1593] The problem is radicalism.

[1594] So the vast majority of Muslims in the world are not radical.

[1595] The vast majority of Muslims in the world add to the world in great way.

[1596] Yes, that's true.

[1597] If we're going to speak in generalities.

[1598] But if a significant percentage of people, have an agenda.

[1599] You don't, I don't believe in this binary opposition that you're either pro or anti -Islam to admit that there's Islamists in London.

[1600] I'm against Islam.

[1601] I'm against radical Islam.

[1602] And I stand up against radical Islam the same way I stand up against radical Christianity.

[1603] The only difference is that the radical Christians are rich white men who wear suits and drop bombs from the sky.

[1604] It's normalized.

[1605] Right.

[1606] And it's systemic.

[1607] Yes.

[1608] The radical Islam have to throw, people have to throw rocks.

[1609] Yes.

[1610] And they have to do suicide bombs.

[1611] It doesn't, I don't say it's better or worse, but I don't, because of that, I can't, I can't give credence to the argument that Islam is, is more literal when you have George Bush saying, you know, God told me I have to get rid of Saddam Hussein.

[1612] And then he's using all the weight of United States government, all the weight is connection with Israel, all the weight of that, they, all the weight in that region to enact this Christian philosophy that the default is Christianity.

[1613] The default is whiteness.

[1614] Yes.

[1615] And so, so, so my, I guess what my argument is, is you don't have to embrace one thing to be critical of the others.

[1616] So to me, it's like, you're dead right.

[1617] That is dead right.

[1618] And that is not acceptable.

[1619] And we should fight against that.

[1620] George Bush should not be making any decisions based on God.

[1621] Right.

[1622] And his interpretation of God.

[1623] Being born again Christian.

[1624] Yes.

[1625] That should not be happening, especially in a country that is by design separated church and states.

[1626] Right.

[1627] Even though it says God be trust on our money.

[1628] Yes.

[1629] And you can't be a president unless you're Christian.

[1630] You know what I'm saying?

[1631] Like, it's not going to happen in this country anytime soon.

[1632] Or my thing as an atheist is we'll have a transgender.

[1633] That would be lovely.

[1634] Atheist president?

[1635] No, I'm telling you is that we will have a transgender president before we'll have an atheist president.

[1636] Maybe.

[1637] I think that is the one thing people are not going to accept.

[1638] Even just Christian, though.

[1639] It would be very hard to elect anyone anytime soon.

[1640] Donald Trump had to pretend he was a Christian in order to get elected.

[1641] Yeah.

[1642] Yes.

[1643] Yes.

[1644] Yes.

[1645] Yes.

[1646] Not so convincingly.

[1647] But anyways, all I would say is, I would urge you as much as you're absolutely right that so many of the things that Sam Harris says do end up getting weaponized by the right, I do believe he is in the middle of both those things.

[1648] And he is very critical of all ideologies that he thinks entitles people from a sovereign entity in the sky.

[1649] And that's a privilege position to be in because if you're in the middle of the people who are marching in Charlottesville and saying, Murray is right about black people and the people saying hey please don't kill us you've chosen a side you can't be in the middle of people who are saying black people have low IQs and black people saying no we don't can't be in the middle of that you got you got to choose a side at some point and that's where I come back to the where the activism community is that you know they're in the activism community there's a lot of discord there's a lot of people who are unfair there's a lot of who ostracize and kick people out for small infractions.

[1650] Obviously, that's all true.

[1651] There's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, that are, that are, that can be made about the left.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] Yeah.

[1654] I don't consider myself a liberal.

[1655] Yeah.

[1656] I don't consider myself a Democrat.

[1657] I don't consider myself a, a progressive only because I, once, once I put that label on me, I now have to be responsible for things and, you know, people.

[1658] Well, well, also, you're, you're, you're expected to then adopt the entire, uh, lock sale version of the platform, which you have no option anymore to evaluate things as they come up.

[1659] Absolutely.

[1660] But the fact is when you talk about the left and the right, not just in the country, but in the world, in history of the world, there's always been conservatives and people who are right wing that have supported genocide, slavery.

[1661] I mean, across the board.

[1662] Sure.

[1663] So when you say I'm in the middle between the left and the right, it's hard for me to take you seriously.

[1664] Yeah.

[1665] You know what I'm saying?

[1666] And that doesn't mean be left.

[1667] You, I should also, like, I read a lot of blogs.

[1668] I read Slate.

[1669] I read Salon.

[1670] I read Huffington Post.

[1671] I read them with a grain of salt because I realize when I read these things, they're going to have a left bias and they're going to say things that propped up their point.

[1672] They're going to leave out information.

[1673] They might double down on other information.

[1674] They might do that.

[1675] Absolutely.

[1676] They might do that.

[1677] I tend to trust things like the New York Times and Washington Post a lot more than huffing into Post or Slate or Salon.

[1678] I'll read these things because they say things I agree with, but I read them like, okay, that argument is based on hyperbole.

[1679] And people like Sam Harris who are intelligent, enough to use words in a fancy way, they can, they can slice those, those hyperbolic arguments up.

[1680] And which is why I think people like them.

[1681] But at the end of the day, it's not, it's not to me about whom weaponizes Sam Harris' words.

[1682] It's the fact that this guy wrote a blog defending profiling.

[1683] There's no defense for profiling.

[1684] There's no defense for using as social justice warrior when you don't do any fucking social justice work.

[1685] None.

[1686] None.

[1687] You don't, there's no social justice.

[1688] Well, in his mind, I would imagine he does feel like he's doing social justice.

[1689] Well, in his mind, but it can be?

[1690] be quantified?

[1691] Well, yeah, he's selling books.

[1692] He's changing minds.

[1693] Selling books is capitalism.

[1694] No. That's too, that's too narrow.

[1695] I just wanted to say Sam, I love, I love Sam Harris, but I do think the problem with his argument on this is it's not solution based.

[1696] By saying they're more literal, he's not saying, so we should add more education, we should add more money.

[1697] Those are the things that change those types of radical ideologies.

[1698] And one of my favorite episodes.

[1699] By the way, you know why I like him too?

[1700] He opens himself.

[1701] up to criticism.

[1702] So he would have you on and he'd argue with you.

[1703] And that, people don't, people with shitty ideas don't open themselves up to that.

[1704] So that's just one thing you'd have to respect about the dude regardless.

[1705] He has long time adversaries on.

[1706] Yeah, I disagree with that too because his intention is not justice.

[1707] Take this olive branch motherfucker.

[1708] I'm seeing your face.

[1709] But he had Farid on.

[1710] Farid, what's his name?

[1711] Farid.

[1712] Foucari?

[1713] Yeah.

[1714] Which was great.

[1715] It was great, great, great, great.

[1716] Because they just both have two philosophical differences and they and they both respect each other and Fareed's very well spoken and he's every bit as good as Sam Harris at having a debate or a conversation.

[1717] That's why I can't be a politician or be a news anchor though like Farid has to be respectable Farid has to be.

[1718] Well not anymore though because he left that position but even so what he's built he's built up this respect to bit I'm a fucking rapper I get to say fuck Sam Harris and I'm a comedian right and so there's people who I would like to see Roland Martin and Mark Lamont Hill I would love to see those guys go on Sam Sam Harry and those guys get, they talk hands on TV, they have to wear a suit and they have to be respectable.

[1719] And they have to have those debates.

[1720] Like, I hate don't deserve a debate for me. Right, but, but, but, but Farid's position was, um, that he does agree that moderate Muslims have to lead, um, some.

[1721] Is Farid Muslim?

[1722] Yes.

[1723] He is, he was a, he grew up Muslim.

[1724] He grew up.

[1725] He grew up.

[1726] He grew up.

[1727] Yeah.

[1728] Okay.

[1729] So go ahead.

[1730] But he grew up Muslim.

[1731] So it gives him, it gives, it's like, I grew up Christian.

[1732] So I get, I get to criticize Christianity.

[1733] because I grew up Christian.

[1734] Farid grew up as a brown Muslim man. So for Farid to say, moderate Muslims need to, yes.

[1735] For someone who's a white boy who never grew up Muslim, you don't got no dog in this fight.

[1736] You don't get to decide what moderate Muslims should do.

[1737] It's a very, very entitled, arrogant thing to say.

[1738] We disagree on that as well because that is basically the party line with intersectionality that if you're not in that group, you have no opinion on that.

[1739] And I simply don't agree with it.

[1740] I think certainly I can, there's a lot of things I'm going to have blind spots to I'm not going to understand, but to actually state that someone with the brain who might be intelligent, who can conduct experiments who can do all this stuff, can't add to one of those things I think is ridiculous.

[1741] You can add, but just as you're allowed to add, I'm allowed to say, well, what are your credentials?

[1742] What is your experience?

[1743] I might be a scientist who's white, non -Jewish studying TASX disease, which plagues a recessive gene that plagues Jewish folks.

[1744] My opinion's fucking valid.

[1745] That's right, but your opinion is valid because of your credentials.

[1746] So if you're going to add to the discussion, I'm going to need to see those damn credentials.

[1747] So if you're going to add to a discussion on Islam, you better have told me, you better have proven to me that you have lived this Islamic experience and you read the Quran and you know it.

[1748] But let's go back to Farid and Sam arguing, and I'm going to be paraphrasing for both of them and I'll probably fuck it up on both sides.

[1749] But Farid's basically saying I do think there has to be an evolution led by moderate Muslims to help confront this issue because it is a sizable hunk of people who are extremists by our definition of extremists.

[1750] And modern Muslims do do that in large quantities.

[1751] And basically both of them want the same thing.

[1752] Now, Sam is again, he disagreed with me when I brought this up, but I thought he had a very Kantian view of it, which is the first thing I have to do, we have to expose certain scriptures as being erroneous, bad, cancerous, blah, blah, blah.

[1753] For Islam and not for everybody else?

[1754] Yes, he'd say for everyone else, but they were specifically talking about Islam.

[1755] That's where it loses me because it's like...

[1756] Well, I'm going to pay you off.

[1757] Okay.

[1758] I'm going to scratch your back.

[1759] Farid says, that is not the way you enact this change.

[1760] We both agree on the change that we think should happen.

[1761] What I disagree with you, Sam, is how you enact that change.

[1762] And I think you go into the people who believe in it and you let them lead this, right?

[1763] And you don't point out, you don't start by pointing out what's so flawed about their ideology.

[1764] And so what is on the surface a very hot button topic that is scary to have, if you start refining both of their points of view, there really are two different philosophical points of view more than they are any kind of geopolitical racial, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is just that Sam Harris has a proclivity, a perversion for the truth.

[1765] You can't get beyond that, right?

[1766] And Farid has a utilitarian long view of this where we can ignore the falsehoods.

[1767] Well, which have come in the back door.

[1768] Which truth, though?

[1769] That we shouldn't kill gay people or that we should not have holy wars or that we should, you know, I could list any number of things we'd all agree on are probably bad parts of the scripture.

[1770] Again, that are also terrible parts of the fucking Old Testament.

[1771] The fact that God would make you kill your son to prove you love them is fucking preposterous.

[1772] Now, Sam would like to start by having them get rid of that part of the text.

[1773] And so you guys are fucking nuts if you believe this because no one should ever kill their son to prove that they love God.

[1774] But then Farid was taking another position, which is that's not how we're going to lead people away from that aspect of the text.

[1775] Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to the fact that the default is Christianity.

[1776] The default is whiteness.

[1777] We live in a world with us, even though there's more Muslims than any other people, there's more brown people.

[1778] We live in a world that Christianity is normalized.

[1779] We had the cargo when we were arriving, when soldiers were arriving in.

[1780] Papua New Guinea, they were just landing on the beach and they had never seen white people.

[1781] And they had ships in boxes.

[1782] And they called it cargo.

[1783] Like they were, how did your God give you all this cargo?

[1784] Yeah.

[1785] The power of that cargo infected the world.

[1786] I used to sell Sam Harris books at my website.

[1787] Oh, really?

[1788] Before I realized that he's aligned with this.

[1789] Well, let's just say, they're aligned with him.

[1790] He might not be aligned with that.

[1791] Nah, because he's using, he's making up terms that they're using and he's retweeting them and he's having them on his show and he's a line he's on their websites he's on daily wire he's on daily caller he's a line with them he's a he's a line with them i think they're in line with him but we can agree to okay so love you to live okay hey man it's all love it's all love but when when you guys like and bill mares bill marr i think is a better example i'm i'm aligned with bill mar on several several issues uh -huh i am not aligned with him on him agreeing with sam harris him him him going he's he's become a dogmatic atheist uh -huh he he he he's he's he's become a dogmatic atheist people like him is like they use bully tactics to say what's wrong.

[1792] Well, I'm an atheist and my complaint about their approach was I think you're wasting your time, your energy, and your spirit to try to convince people there's no God.

[1793] It doesn't matter if people believe in God.

[1794] They should be encouraged to believe in God and it's not, it's such a waste of time.

[1795] I do think it's worth trying to destroy these patriarchal, systematic, hierarchical religions that we've all been infected with and we've been fucking stuck with it.

[1796] We've been here for 200 ,000 years as a species.

[1797] And for the last 5 ,000 years, our brain's been hijacked by a lot of this shit.

[1798] But check this out.

[1799] We're sitting here in this, in this space and there's a beautiful space.

[1800] Attic.

[1801] But we're in Hollywood.

[1802] Yeah.

[1803] We're both men of means.

[1804] We both lived incredible.

[1805] We're both handsome.

[1806] Yeah.

[1807] We're both nice looking guys.

[1808] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1809] You know, we live an incredibly privileged life.

[1810] Absolutely.

[1811] We've been educated.

[1812] My parents are educated.

[1813] You're educated in anthropology.

[1814] That's an incredible amount of privilege for us to sit and have these lofty debates about atheism and religion.

[1815] We're very privileged to have these debates.

[1816] Absolutely.

[1817] Meanwhile, you have people who are growing up in very poor destitute situation.

[1818] Absolutely.

[1819] Or if, by the way, there isn't to heaven, this whole thing is just a torture.

[1820] Yeah.

[1821] I hear you.

[1822] Like, I think the more miserable your situation is, it gets a lot more appealing when you think I will be relieved of this suffering at one point.

[1823] Right.

[1824] So we're privileged to have these lofty academic debates when the debate becomes, well, Muslim take it more literal.

[1825] So therefore, because of that logic, I come to the conclusion, that anyone who looks like a Muslim, I should profile.

[1826] Oh, I won't join you there.

[1827] I won't join you there.

[1828] And I think there's a big sect of people that are being ignored that don't join them there.

[1829] That's where I think the right is the right.

[1830] But Sam Harris is hanging his hat on that.

[1831] And so if we're going to, if we defend Sam Harris, we have to defend the thing he's become famous for, which is saying profiling is acceptable.

[1832] Well, can I just tell you this?

[1833] You told me that and I believe you.

[1834] I did not know that about him.

[1835] I don't think that that is what he's known for.

[1836] from people like me. But you have to acknowledge you're good at doing this, acknowledging this.

[1837] You're in a silo.

[1838] I witness it on Twitter.

[1839] You are people on the very far right love to fuck with you.

[1840] So I do think you're getting an outweighed view of what is happening.

[1841] As I am getting an outweighed, but just as someone on the outside of your life looking in, I would have to imagine if I'm you, I would probably overestimate the amount of crazy.

[1842] Yes.

[1843] And you're getting it and it's a high, high percentage that it could affect what you think your overall assessment.

[1844] But let's move that out and focus on he defended profiling.

[1845] Okay.

[1846] You know what I'm saying?

[1847] So yeah, you're correct about that.

[1848] But the reason why they're able to point to guys like Sam Harris and guys like Charles Murray is because the people in the middle, the moderates, the progressives.

[1849] You know what I'm saying?

[1850] Yeah.

[1851] Are the ones uplifting these people?

[1852] It's like Dr. King spoke about this often.

[1853] I'm so fucking guilty of this.

[1854] He says beware of the middle class liberal who will tell you the time frame by which you should expect change.

[1855] Right.

[1856] Something like that.

[1857] Right.

[1858] And it's in the letter to Birmingham Jail because he was running into people he as he's seeing himself as a peaceful he calls it a negative piece versus a positive piece you know what I'm saying it's like you're you're as a negative piece of saying you don't really want peace you just want my silence you know what I'm saying and it's like too often people who have not studied the subject matter wax philosophically on it too often like people who are not don't have the experience that's why like like I as someone who I used to be I was I was partial to five percent nation which is like an offshoot of Muslims in New York City that had great influence on hip hop.

[1859] I'm not down with that.

[1860] I'm not down with the nation of Islam.

[1861] I'm not religious at all.

[1862] But I still have, Yassine Bay is a Muslim.

[1863] He's a good friend of mine.

[1864] Dave Chappelle is Muslim.

[1865] He's a good friend of mine.

[1866] You know what I'm saying?

[1867] I got Muslims in my life.

[1868] And so it's like when someone is, they're not realizing the same way that Trump doesn't realize the danger that he's putting a Latino people in when he says bad home race.

[1869] He don't, you know what I'm saying?

[1870] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1871] And what we're speaking on is intention versus result.

[1872] I don't think Sam Harris is intentionally a racist.

[1873] I don't think it's intention to be a racist.

[1874] He's probably a nice fucking guy.

[1875] It's the result of what's happening.

[1876] It's what's happening is like there's no...

[1877] I'm going to light in the mood.

[1878] Fun fact, do you know his mother created golden girls?

[1879] See, that's even another level of privilege.

[1880] You're adding all these levels of privilege.

[1881] I love golden girls.

[1882] Now I got to watch it with a green assault and shit.

[1883] I appreciate you so much.

[1884] you're so fun to talk to.

[1885] And I think you just point out something that people really need to be reminded of, which is like, you don't have to be all in or all out on anything.

[1886] Like, I love you.

[1887] I love your voice.

[1888] I don't agree with you on everything.

[1889] But I can still, I can focus on the thing I love about you.

[1890] And I can be open to the things.

[1891] And you've certainly broadened my horizon on things.

[1892] You've opened my eyes and things.

[1893] And we can all do this.

[1894] We can, we can.

[1895] And let me say this.

[1896] I can have this conversation with you because I know you're a predigree.

[1897] I look at your work.

[1898] I'm aware of your work.

[1899] I've seen things that you say on Twitter.

[1900] You show solidarity with certain movements.

[1901] I know this about you.

[1902] So yeah, there's several things that you've said that I don't agree with.

[1903] But because we're in the flesh and because we have, there's a mutual respect going in.

[1904] That makes the conversation better.

[1905] When you're on social media and you're dealing with strangers, there's no mutual respect.

[1906] No. And a lot of these people are anonymous.

[1907] So I think that's what happens on social media is that, and I will be the first to say that I'm, I play defense a lot.

[1908] Because if someone's coming to me anonymously, they've never shown me any love, never show me any respect.

[1909] The first thing they say is you're a cuck and you're a SJW and Sam Harris is right.

[1910] I'm going to be like, fuck you.

[1911] You know what I'm saying?

[1912] Off top.

[1913] So it's like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you not entitled to my respect.

[1914] Yes.

[1915] You know what I'm saying?

[1916] And, and, and because you've earned my respect, I could debate you.

[1917] John Henry Clark is a famous African -American scholar.

[1918] He said, I debate my equals.

[1919] Everybody else gets taught.

[1920] I also, and I don't, I think you're this way too.

[1921] I'm not arrogant enough to think that my opinion is the only one required in this country to run it correctly.

[1922] So it's like, I think, I think you need me. I think we need you.

[1923] I think we need all these things.

[1924] I don't think that there is one, you know, as we said, we have opposing goals.

[1925] We want, we want to be liberal and we want to be equals.

[1926] So just knowing that right out of the gates is we need the side that's arguing for liberty.

[1927] We need the side that's arguing for equality.

[1928] So, you know, we're all needed in this, which is great.

[1929] The last thing I want to ask you is because I often argue with people on Twitter too.

[1930] I noticed.

[1931] Yeah.

[1932] Not as much as you.

[1933] Oh my God.

[1934] This is where saying too is when I came to see you the first time in Hollywood.

[1935] One of your Twitter wars actually showed up in the flesh.

[1936] Yeah.

[1937] And we were out in front of this.

[1938] And see, that's why you went outside with me and I was right next to you.

[1939] And you was ready to thump if it came to it.

[1940] Absolutely.

[1941] Which is why.

[1942] There's that mutual respect day.

[1943] Do you ever worry or do you ever pause and go, I need to do this work and we do do need you to do this work.

[1944] And I'm so grateful you do.

[1945] But it is taking a toll on my overall because at least I don't know, I can't speak for you, but when I get in that zone where I'm on the offense and I'm thinking of barbs and I'm looking up shit on Twitter and I'm going to post a link, right?

[1946] I get into a zone that I know it's probably not great for me. Like there's an adrenal gland dump.

[1947] There's all this activation.

[1948] Yeah, there's all this fight or flight activation.

[1949] Like, I want to kill.

[1950] And then sometimes I go, that's just not the best space for me to live in.

[1951] Do I need to pull back from this?

[1952] And so are you trying to balance?

[1953] You have a voice.

[1954] You're trying to use it for good.

[1955] I respect that a ton.

[1956] And are you affecting your life in a negative way by engaging in it so much?

[1957] There are, every once in a while there's a moment that it becomes stressful.

[1958] It's not often.

[1959] But like I had a guy threatening my fans would say he's going to shoot air all my fans.

[1960] with A and R 15.

[1961] He was the actual lawyer in Texas and we had to find his addresses.

[1962] There's certain moments like that that become stressful.

[1963] But for the most part, people of color and oppressed people are so conditioned to dealing with this in our actual lives that the Twitter thing for me becomes empowering.

[1964] It's never, when people, people often be like, sometimes I get the criticism.

[1965] Why you're so angry?

[1966] Why are you mad?

[1967] Like I'm having the time of my life.

[1968] Yeah.

[1969] I'm literally having a ball.

[1970] Oh, that's good.

[1971] Is I'm engaged in one of those things.

[1972] I believe I've put it down.

[1973] Now I'm on the couch playing with my children, which I should do.

[1974] And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about if I think I just delivered the knockout punch.

[1975] But I'm curious, is this guy actually going to have something to say to that?

[1976] Because I just put up, I fucking forwarded him a Smithsonian article, proving him wrong.

[1977] But the back of my mind is wandering if there's going to be another thing.

[1978] And I'm now kind of composing my response to that.

[1979] And I go, Jesus Christ, I'm not present with my kids right now because I'm having still in my head.

[1980] That's bad.

[1981] And none of us should be like that.

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] So that it doesn't affect you that way.

[1984] Well, my kids are growing at this point.

[1985] So now they're reading my Twitter too.

[1986] Will you play with my kids?

[1987] Yes, definitely.

[1988] But I think that the key to that is understanding that, to me, it's never about the argument.

[1989] If you're arguing with a guy and you post a Smithsonian link, and he comes back and says, well, you're just a, you know, you're just a Hillary Clinton fan or whatever.

[1990] It's never on topic, by the way.

[1991] Right.

[1992] What you have to realize is you're not arguing with that person.

[1993] You're using that person as a tool to expose.

[1994] To expose how racist think and to provide information.

[1995] There's someone following you who never, saw that Smithsonian link.

[1996] I was going to click on that link.

[1997] They become a tool.

[1998] My thing is, I'll link them to a book I'm selling at my bookstore.

[1999] So when I do that, I get my assistant calling me like, yo, what are you saying on Twitter?

[2000] Because we just sold 10 books.

[2001] You know what I'm saying?

[2002] So I always look at it.

[2003] Like, I'm not speaking to them.

[2004] I'm speaking through them.

[2005] Okay.

[2006] But then in the second level, there's that, there's me not being present in the adrenal dump.

[2007] But then second to all that is I go, man, there were, I passed 10 people that said beautiful things to me that took the time to write something supportive and beautiful.

[2008] And I passed those 10 people and I gave this piece of shit all this attention.

[2009] And then that really weighs on me. Okay.

[2010] That's how I deal with that.

[2011] I scroll through my thing and I see something.

[2012] Because you want to be president in the moment if you're having a debate or you're trying to make your point.

[2013] Somebody might be like, I loved you in chips.

[2014] And then you're like, whatever.

[2015] I'm trying to make my point now.

[2016] But I'm fighting with John from Oklahoma.

[2017] And it's more important because I'm fighting racism.

[2018] What I do in that situation is I like every single nice comment.

[2019] And I go and once I fail to make my point, I then go.

[2020] back and I retweet and show love to everybody and I challenge people because people people look at Twitter like they look at car car crashes they're like why are you always arguing and like it might look like that to you but if you and I've done this I've done the math I've I've taken a sample size of 50 of my tweets because I'm I want to make sure I'm not just being negative I've taken a sample size and say well how many these tweets are me talking to a fan or promoting music arguing and to the outside person if I get bogged down in the argument it could be like two days of mostly negative tweets but then the next next two days will be all me retweeting positive things about the show.

[2021] And I will say that it's a conscious effort to be made because it's seductive to get caught up in just the negative like looking at a car crash.

[2022] I have to consciously save the nice tweets, make sure I engage with them.

[2023] And I do that on purpose so that I don't get in that space where I'm feeling like I'm ignoring people.

[2024] Yeah.

[2025] I like you so much.

[2026] I'm really grateful you came by.

[2027] I like you too, man. You're in town for such a short period.

[2028] Yeah.

[2029] You graced us and you invited me to your show and it was great.

[2030] You're invited to any show.

[2031] Okay, good.

[2032] You can't bring Sam Harris, which are plus me. I won't.

[2033] I won't.

[2034] Where do people go to find out where you're playing?

[2035] Talibqqali .com has all the, you know, the information.

[2036] You can, you can join the quality club.

[2037] You can become a member.

[2038] And I return most of the emails.

[2039] We have a whole community there.

[2040] I sell books.

[2041] I sell T -shirts.

[2042] I sell my music.

[2043] There's free mixtapes.

[2044] And, you know, it's just my hub.

[2045] Yeah.

[2046] And look, I do want to make this point really loud and clear so you hear me. Whether I agree with you or not, I see quite obviously you're a human being that volunteers a ton of your free time.

[2047] that you could be getting a massage to helping people.

[2048] And whether I think it's the exact way I would do it or not, that is undeniable and it's really admirable.

[2049] And I wish I was.

[2050] I appreciate that.

[2051] I canceled my massage to come here and do this podcast.

[2052] I'm going to rub you down.

[2053] Oh, wow.

[2054] Monica's got the oils and I'm going to get them nuts out.

[2055] Meet you in the bathroom with no door.

[2056] All right, man. Love you.

[2057] Thank you.

[2058] I love you, too, Dex.

[2059] Stay tuned if you'd like to hear my good friend and producer Monica Padman point out the many errors in the podcast you just heard.

[2060] I bet you're going to dig into this fact check like a big old juicy T -bone steak.

[2061] Yeah.

[2062] Am I right about that?

[2063] Yeah.

[2064] Because this is a doozy.

[2065] This is a doozy.

[2066] Of an episode.

[2067] You might need to take a little five -minute nap after that portion and then resume here with the fact -check.

[2068] But you shouldn't.

[2069] Okay.

[2070] Don't take a nap.

[2071] Don't take a nap because you probably won't pick up.

[2072] Especially it was like 8 p .m. Because if you take a nap at 8 p .m, you're probably going to be able to sleep.

[2073] I took a nap at 7 o 'clock yesterday.

[2074] Well, only for 20 minutes.

[2075] I had to because I knew it was going to be up late.

[2076] And I was so tired.

[2077] Yeah, last night when you left, you seemed to be a tiredest point.

[2078] I've observed.

[2079] And then I was up to 1 .30.

[2080] Mm -hmm.

[2081] So the nap was necessary.

[2082] Yeah.

[2083] In hindsight, it was probably good that you took that nap.

[2084] I guess that's the conclusion.

[2085] I like naps.

[2086] Do you think naps could sponsor us?

[2087] This episode is also brought to you in part by naps.

[2088] Monica, I took the greatest nap yesterday.

[2089] I wasn't even expecting it.

[2090] I was driving my car.

[2091] Oh.

[2092] And I just went down for 15 minutes.

[2093] That sounds lovely.

[2094] I woke up in a gully.

[2095] Sounds relaxing.

[2096] Okay, so you mentioned cribs on MTV.

[2097] If there's any young listeners who don't, know about Cribs.

[2098] It was a fantastic show on MTV.

[2099] It was.

[2100] I loved it.

[2101] It was very voyeuristic.

[2102] You got to see how these people you looked up to live their fancy lives.

[2103] That's right.

[2104] It was a homes tour of different celebrities.

[2105] Let me just throw a shout out to Michael Rosenbaum.

[2106] He did an episode of Cribs and it's, I think it's tied for the funniest episode I've ever seen.

[2107] Really?

[2108] Yeah, he had like a little pranks planned and stuff.

[2109] Like he had people sleeping in beds when you, you know, it was great.

[2110] Oh, that's great.

[2111] Yeah.

[2112] If you're going to go to that archive, make sure you're checking on Rosenbaum's.

[2113] Because you said you thought it was Moby, whose episode had books.

[2114] Yeah, I made a big point about that.

[2115] It was Moby.

[2116] Oh, good.

[2117] In 2001, he said, I haven't seen MTV cribs yet, but then someone who works at MTV told me a dirty secret about me, vis -a -vis the show.

[2118] And the dirty little secret is that I'm the only person who's been profiled on cribs who had books in their apartment.

[2119] I was asking someone on MTV, so what sort of books do the other people whom you profiled had in their homes, to which I was given the answer that they've done cribs profiles on 30 or so people and none have had any books.

[2120] Oh, geez, Louise.

[2121] I guess what you could gleam from that is throw those books right in the trash if you end up rich and famous.

[2122] If you want to be successful.

[2123] Get rid of all literature.

[2124] You also mentioned an artist who makes statues out of books and I was looking and there's a lot of art. There's a lot of art. If you're looking for an installation of books, you can find them.

[2125] Oh.

[2126] There's probably one that's for famous, but I couldn't find it.

[2127] Should have called my agent.

[2128] He has one.

[2129] Oh.

[2130] It's really cool.

[2131] If I had known that, I would have emailed your agent.

[2132] Fact check on fact check next time.

[2133] All right.

[2134] Okay.

[2135] Or you know what?

[2136] Just put it in the Joel McHale fact check.

[2137] Oh, actually, it already is there.

[2138] Oh, that's where it was.

[2139] It's there.

[2140] It's there.

[2141] I thought we had that conversation.

[2142] It was definitely in there.

[2143] In that episode?

[2144] If you're interested, you can go back and listen to the Joel McHale fact check.

[2145] Oh, you said there's some entrepreneur who is suggesting that kids drop out of college, and it's Peter Thiel.

[2146] How do you pronounce it?

[2147] Is it Thiel or Teal?

[2148] I have to imagine that H is silent, wouldn't you?

[2149] That's what my gut tells you.

[2150] Yes, and it's embarrassing because he's incredibly famous and successful, so we should know.

[2151] the Thiel Fellowship, Thiel Fellowship, is a philanthropic creation of billionaire PayPal founder, Peter Thiel, that grants $100 ,000 to 20 people under the age of 20 on the condition that they stop out of school for two years and pursue a business venture instead.

[2152] So he is definitely encouraging that.

[2153] Wow, you know, I just, as you say that, I get this pang of fear.

[2154] and I realize how much I've bought into this paradigm that, like, you have to go to college.

[2155] Now, whether you do or not, who knows, but I can recognize that, like, it actually elicits fear in me to tell someone to drop out.

[2156] Does it do the same to you?

[2157] Like, boy, that's scary advice.

[2158] Weirdly, because I'm, I loved college so much, it really, it doesn't scare me to say that.

[2159] Oh, really?

[2160] And I think maybe it's because my brother.

[2161] Mm -hmm.

[2162] is very smart and does not like school.

[2163] Right.

[2164] And you think maybe he should just drop out.

[2165] Well, no. At this point, he's almost done with school and he's doing great.

[2166] But he could have potentially benefited from not going immediately.

[2167] Mm -hmm.

[2168] And he probably would have developed some skill that would have been important and great and could have led to who knows what.

[2169] And it might have been more beneficial than him sort of like trudging through school.

[2170] Sure.

[2171] as just the next thing he's supposed to do.

[2172] Yes.

[2173] Now, I took a year and a half off in between high school and college.

[2174] But again, his messaging is not just take a year off or take two years off.

[2175] It's dropped the fuck out.

[2176] Well, stop school for two years.

[2177] Oh, okay.

[2178] So he is kind of saying, like, just take a little break and try to do this other thing.

[2179] Which also makes sense to me because I do in general think we're doing this all completely wrong.

[2180] And now is when I want to be in school.

[2181] Uh -huh.

[2182] Because now I'm interested in learning.

[2183] and I want to know everything.

[2184] And back then I just wanted to get an A. Yeah, you're kind of, as you age, you feel the gravitational pull of different topics that you just develop this crazy interest in.

[2185] Yeah.

[2186] That you don't really, I don't know, I think it's rare to have out of high school.

[2187] I'm going to try to go back to school and not do any work and just listen.

[2188] We just talked about this the other day.

[2189] That's my retirement plan.

[2190] It's just to sit in on class, audit classes and not do any work.

[2191] This episode is also brought to you by my, Iced green tea.

[2192] A lot of ads in this episode.

[2193] So addie.

[2194] You bring up the statistic about how much money makes people happy.

[2195] What's the threshold?

[2196] You said $175 ,000 was the number that Malcolm Gladwell cited in his book.

[2197] And that book is David and Goliath.

[2198] And the actual figure he cites a 70.

[2199] Oh, really?

[2200] Yes.

[2201] And then does it then plateau for a while to you get to $1 .75 or something?

[2202] Well, says Malcolm Badwell's figure about how the slope of money buying happiness is the greatest around the $75 ,000 mark.

[2203] And then money is able to buy happiness at a much, much slower and slower pace after that.

[2204] Yeah.

[2205] And then there is a point where it actually starts dropping off is you get mega rich.

[2206] Yeah.

[2207] You'll be experiencing that shortly, I think.

[2208] I can't wait.

[2209] I can't wait to get unhappy from having too much money.

[2210] I cannot wait.

[2211] I think we all.

[2212] See, this is the problem with that.

[2213] That's most people's reaction, right?

[2214] It's when they hear that like, oh, cool, must be nice to like have so much money or unhappy.

[2215] Sure, sure.

[2216] But it's real.

[2217] You also go like, I would be the exception.

[2218] Sure, that's the trend or that's the curve, but I would be an outlier.

[2219] Yeah.

[2220] Yeah.

[2221] So he said $75 ,000 is just enough to live a comfortable lifestyle, but not so much that children never learn the true value of money.

[2222] So that's interesting.

[2223] It also obviously is dependent on your location.

[2224] What city you live in?

[2225] Yeah, Manhattan.

[2226] 75 ,000 in Los Angeles, I would say probably not.

[2227] Yeah, probably higher.

[2228] Yeah, yeah.

[2229] And then in Manhattan, it's probably about $9 million just to meet your needs.

[2230] Okay, code switching is brought up.

[2231] And if you're interested in code switching, you can listen to Joy Bryant's episode.

[2232] It is discussed there.

[2233] And I think we also discuss it in the fact check potentially.

[2234] We did.

[2235] Okay.

[2236] Then can check it out.

[2237] We mentioned Dave Chappelle a few times in this episode and specifically his latest special on Netflix where he talks about stovtop stuffing.

[2238] And it's so funny.

[2239] And that special is called equanimity in the bird revelation.

[2240] Equanimity in the bird revelation?

[2241] Yes.

[2242] Which because it's a two part, it's two.

[2243] It's like two melded into one.

[2244] Do you know what equanimity means?

[2245] Two for the price of none.

[2246] I mean, I think I do, but maybe I don't.

[2247] I didn't.

[2248] I had to look it up.

[2249] I had to clear it.

[2250] You had to clear that word?

[2251] I did.

[2252] Equanimity.

[2253] I just feel like that's like benevolence and, in um with respect close mental calmness composure and evenness of temper especially in a difficult situation mm -hmm level -headedness yeah yeah so we learned a new word today yeah monica loves words look for the spin -off podcast of monica loves words and you just list for 90 minutes you just list words you've highlighted words in the dictionary my favorite ones go through through them.

[2254] If you're having, if you have insomnia, it's going to be a dream podcast.

[2255] Oh my God.

[2256] What if I really did that?

[2257] Equanimity.

[2258] Origin.

[2259] Listen, if I, this is potentially a million dollar idea because I would love to go to sleep to someone increasing my vocabulary.

[2260] It would be great.

[2261] But what if, um, what if we really embrace this Malcolm Gladwell number of $75 ,000 and people started going.

[2262] Now this is a $75 ,000 idea.

[2263] That's funny.

[2264] Okay.

[2265] Here we go.

[2266] All right.

[2267] We're getting into some set a portion of this that makes me a little bummed.

[2268] Okay.

[2269] Because it has to do with the love of my life.

[2270] Oh, okay.

[2271] Oh, Matt Damon.

[2272] Yes.

[2273] So Talib mentions the Project Greenlight scandal.

[2274] Yeah, I had never heard of it.

[2275] I had heard of it.

[2276] As his personal historian.

[2277] Correct.

[2278] Yeah.

[2279] So what happened is during Project Greenlight, which is a show where they made him and Ben Affleck and a group of filmmakers like come together and greenlight a movie for people.

[2280] It's a good show.

[2281] And he was in a conversation with a producer from Dear White People, Effie Brown, who's African American.

[2282] So what happened is they were deciding between two people.

[2283] And she wanted one person of a diverse background.

[2284] And I think he was in the other camp a little bit.

[2285] He just liked the other person more or with their work more.

[2286] And he argued that diversity was best addressed, quote, in the casting of the film, not in the casting of the show, unquote.

[2287] So he got a lot of flask for that.

[2288] Being casting of the crew?

[2289] Behind the scenes.

[2290] Oh, right, right, right.

[2291] Okay.

[2292] Yeah.

[2293] And so he got a lot of flack for that.

[2294] And he had and he made a very public nice apology.

[2295] I think he also went on Ellen and apologized, which is, you know, people make mistakes.

[2296] All you can do.

[2297] And what do they call them teachable moments?

[2298] Yeah.

[2299] He's been quick to like adopt these teachable moments.

[2300] Yeah.

[2301] He's done it with grace.

[2302] I would be more defensive because he was so fearful everyone thought I was a racist that I would panic and I would, you know, go the other.

[2303] I'd go too hard in the other direction.

[2304] Yeah.

[2305] I think he's done it.

[2306] He's handled it really well.

[2307] And the good thing he's still my boyfriend.

[2308] And then there was another question about what he had said at the beginning of the Weinstein debacle that kind of threw him as well.

[2309] And because Talib said that he started by saying, I haven't been paying attention to what's going on or what's been said.

[2310] Right.

[2311] And I tried to find it last night.

[2312] I have seen it before.

[2313] I definitely have watched that.

[2314] But it was hard for me to find.

[2315] I wonder if a lot of it's been taken down.

[2316] And then a lot of the stuff, the transcripts were all like on Reddit.

[2317] And it was just like people just chatting about it.

[2318] So I don't, I'm not going to speak to exactly what he said in that.

[2319] You're going to do what he did.

[2320] Say I'm not.

[2321] I'm not an expert.

[2322] Yeah.

[2323] I am.

[2324] You should use his exact sentence.

[2325] But I'm not going to defend what he said.

[2326] No, no, no. I'm just going to say, I don't know.

[2327] And I don't.

[2328] Yeah.

[2329] But what was his sentence that Talib said he said?

[2330] Talib said that he started the conversation by saying, I haven't been paying attention to what's been said.

[2331] Right.

[2332] So I think that's what your conclusion should be.

[2333] That I haven't been paying that.

[2334] Also, like, the truth is he just was saying that to lessen whatever the blow was of what was about to come.

[2335] He, of course, has been paying attention.

[2336] Like, nobody was not paying attention.

[2337] And especially if you know the person.

[2338] You're going to know what's going on.

[2339] That was Quali's point.

[2340] But I do think my point was relevant as well, which is like he didn't leave his house with a prepared statement.

[2341] No. He doesn't ever want to talk about this because why would he?

[2342] But he's somewhere and he's being asked and he has to talk.

[2343] He has to start moving his mouth.

[2344] Exactly.

[2345] And that's just dangerous for any human being.

[2346] Exactly.

[2347] You know, I know.

[2348] I think he was put in a tough spot.

[2349] Yeah.

[2350] Yeah, he's either, he's, yeah, he's being asked to either, you know, condemn him.

[2351] And even when he does it, he's got to do it in a right way.

[2352] It's just very dicey.

[2353] Yeah, it is.

[2354] It is.

[2355] Okay.

[2356] And the Matt Damon's Sam Rye movie is the Great Wall.

[2357] Okay.

[2358] And I wish you guys hadn't made fun of his ponytail.

[2359] Okay.

[2360] All right.

[2361] I won't do it again.

[2362] Okay.

[2363] Thank you.

[2364] You talked about the John Stewart anecdote of the boys club and going, which I love that story.

[2365] And I listened to it.

[2366] on Stern yesterday.

[2367] It wasn't Slate magazine.

[2368] It was Jezebel.

[2369] Okay.

[2370] And it was like a while ago.

[2371] It was in the early 2000s.

[2372] But I thought that was really introspective to note what he was doing.

[2373] Yeah, he really has a gift for that.

[2374] Okay.

[2375] You a few times mention a Kantian view.

[2376] Mm -hmm.

[2377] And just in case people don't know what that means.

[2378] Mm -hmm.

[2379] Contian philosophy.

[2380] is that the means justify the end yes because in Kantian theory humans have individual worth okay each human has inherent worth so because of that you can't treat humans as a means to an end because all the value lies within each individual human yeah because the super conventional philosophical argument is like a guy in a foxhole and a grenade gets thrown in it and you know you can push one guy down and save eight people or all 80 you will die and then the utilitarian view is that it's worth pushing that guy down because the ends justify the means whereas Kant goes no whatever the outcome is is an acceptable moral outcome if your action was yeah was true yeah and that's because that individual person's death is equal it would be equal to all of the People's deaths.

[2381] Yeah, because in utilitarianism, as you just said, you may use whatever means necessary to achieve maximum happiness.

[2382] The desired.

[2383] Exactly.

[2384] By the way, I should also note that, and I think maybe I said it, but Sam very much does not consider himself.

[2385] Continent, yeah.

[2386] Okay.

[2387] Talib brings up a spinoff show from the Cosby.

[2388] Or a different world.

[2389] A different world is the spinoff, but I couldn't.

[2390] Like Theo was only in two episodes.

[2391] It was really Lisa, it started as Lisa Bonnet's spin -off.

[2392] Exactly.

[2393] But then weirdly she left that as well.

[2394] She left the Cosby Show and then she, I think she left her spin -up, I think.

[2395] Yeah, yeah.

[2396] That's why I was confused because he, I knew it was a different world was the Cosby Show spin -off.

[2397] But then I couldn't remember that Theo was a teacher in that.

[2398] And then when I was looking up, he's only in two episodes.

[2399] Right.

[2400] So anyway, that's probably the spin -off that he's talking about.

[2401] I mean, it has to be, I guess.

[2402] The Chris Rock joke about the dentist.

[2403] I have it written here, but I think people should just go find it and have him.

[2404] Walk you through the joke.

[2405] Yeah.

[2406] Oh, this is about the neighbor.

[2407] Yeah.

[2408] Oh, this is the one I brought up.

[2409] The dentist, exactly.

[2410] Yeah, yeah.

[2411] It's from his.

[2412] Is the quote just laden with end bombs or something that you don't want to read it?

[2413] Or you just think you won't be able to deliver it.

[2414] Exactly.

[2415] I just don't think it's, it's not going to do it justice.

[2416] If I read it, I mean, I could.

[2417] We'll read it.

[2418] Okay.

[2419] So it's in the 2008 HBO Kill the Messenger special.

[2420] He says, In my neighborhood, there are four black people.

[2421] Hundreds of houses for black people.

[2422] Who are these black people?

[2423] Well, there's me, Mary J. Blige, Jay Blige, Jay Z, and Eddie Murphy.

[2424] It's already an amazing.

[2425] Only black people in the whole neighborhood.

[2426] So let's break it down.

[2427] Let's break it down.

[2428] Me, I'm a decent comedian.

[2429] Mary J. Blige, one of the greatest R &B singers to ever walk the earth.

[2430] Jay Z, one of the greatest rappers to ever live.

[2431] Eddie Murphy, one of the funniest actors to ever, ever do it.

[2432] Do you know what the white man who lives next door and he does for a living?

[2433] He's a fucking dentist.

[2434] He ain't the best dentist in the world.

[2435] He ain't going to the Dental Hall of Fame.

[2436] We don't get plaques for getting rid of plaque.

[2437] He's just to yank your tooth out dentist.

[2438] See, the black man got a fly to get something the white man can walk to.

[2439] Pretty good.

[2440] Yeah.

[2441] Yeah, I'm glad you read it.

[2442] That's good.

[2443] So you mentioned the Red Hot albums.

[2444] I didn't know what that was.

[2445] Okay.

[2446] And I, when I heard it, my context clues made me think of those now CDs.

[2447] Remember those now CDs?

[2448] Maybe that was post your time.

[2449] Yeah.

[2450] I don't think I remember now CDs.

[2451] There are compilations.

[2452] Yeah.

[2453] And they would come out, I mean, by the time I graduated, it was on like now 30 or something.

[2454] They would come out very often.

[2455] And they were compilations.

[2456] And at first I love them.

[2457] And then.

[2458] You got tired of them.

[2459] Then they got cliche, you know?

[2460] Sure.

[2461] So I wondered if this was a sort of like that.

[2462] And it kind of was, right?

[2463] It kind of is, but I think there was generally like, first of all, I think a lot of the music that was compiled was original to that CD.

[2464] And then there would be like a theme, whether they were going to do Colport or, you know, or whatever.

[2465] They would all redo some famous jazz musician stuff and put their twists on or something.

[2466] There seemed to be new content and it was the more.

[2467] Wanted.

[2468] I've got it.

[2469] Yeah.

[2470] Well, and it was also not for profit.

[2471] And it was dedicated to fighting AIDS through pop culture.

[2472] Oh, that's cool.

[2473] Yeah.

[2474] He talks about Steve Harvey getting in trouble.

[2475] Okay.

[2476] And I don't know.

[2477] And for people who don't know what happened, he just went, he went to visit Trump after he was sworn in.

[2478] And it was like this whole thing of helping, like, make the transition easier.

[2479] We're bringing people in.

[2480] And anyway, he got a lot of pushback for that.

[2481] Okay.

[2482] Okay, here we go.

[2483] We're now about, we're about to enter the Sam Harris portion of the fact check.

[2484] This is also dicey for us because we love Sam Harris so much and we still do.

[2485] We still love them.

[2486] But this is to Lib's account and his opinion based on all the facts he's gathered.

[2487] So I just want people to know that.

[2488] They're also public adversaries.

[2489] So they're, you know, they have a historical public feud.

[2490] Yeah.

[2491] So that's in the, that's in the recipe.

[2492] Yeah.

[2493] So he mentions it a lot that Sam has an article called in defense of profiling.

[2494] And he does.

[2495] It is on his website.

[2496] You can find it as soon as you Google it.

[2497] It will pop up.

[2498] In his defense, I'm not a fan of the article.

[2499] Okay.

[2500] You read it and you don't, you don't dig it.

[2501] No. But in his defense, he does say, he says he should be profiled.

[2502] Okay.

[2503] They need to be looking more and doing a less PC job of picking who is going to be padded down in the airports.

[2504] Okay.

[2505] So.

[2506] Do we think they are doing a PC job?

[2507] I can't imagine they are.

[2508] He thinks that that he saw like an old couple getting patted down or something.

[2509] And then a kid, the TSA worker was like, she has to take her shoes off the kid, which of course is annoying all of it's annoying i i recognize that but but he was saying like that shouldn't be happening and every single person who looks um muslim should that was his point of view yes it's worth reading um anyway but i did but but he did say more than so many other people he should also be profiled and really then in my opinion it's just Like, okay, well, then all that proves is it has to be everyone because you may not know.

[2510] But then I just got to throw it out there.

[2511] We circle back to, I think it's Jefferson who said, Thomas Jefferson said those who would surrender safety at the expense of liberty deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[2512] It doesn't have to be.

[2513] Everyone can go through that process.

[2514] Yeah, that's a surrendering of liberty.

[2515] So I'm saying, well, you can have perfect safety if all of us are monitored at all times.

[2516] and we're constantly searched and you bug our house.

[2517] So to give up your liberty in a trade for safety, he says you deserve neither.

[2518] But you can't ask for the taking away of somebody else's liberty for your safety, which is what he's asking.

[2519] Sure, sure.

[2520] No, I was just pointing out.

[2521] You always got to kind of be checking in and evaluating, you know, how much of a police state you're willing to live in and to prevent how many deaths.

[2522] And it's just, it's worth thinking about.

[2523] definitely you could give up you know privacy rights you could give up all these things that would make us a hundred percent safe but i don't think any of us would want that and you're not saying what sam is saying just to be clear oh no no and i'll just say um there throughout listening to 100 episodes of his podcast i disagree on a ton of stuff he says yeah and i think we both said that i can disagree with him on a good chunk of what he says and also really value these other things i do agree with him.

[2524] I don't have to agree with people lockstock and barrel to enjoy them.

[2525] I don't, I don't agree with Bill Maher lockstock.

[2526] I don't, you know, these are all people I consume their stuff and I like it.

[2527] Yeah.

[2528] I, I, this notion that someone's going to walk the perfect line according to me is a little silly.

[2529] Yeah, that's true.

[2530] And I fully agree.

[2531] I think it kind of all circles back to exactly what Talib is saying.

[2532] You are in a position to be able to say that and to say, I can kind of pick and choose what I like about a person, what I don't.

[2533] It's not going to affect me. Yeah.

[2534] That's the bold truth.

[2535] But if I read that article and see that what he is saying is that I should be patted down every time I walk through.

[2536] You definitely look like a jihadist.

[2537] When I look at you, I start to see ISIS.

[2538] When I look at you, I think ISIS.

[2539] No, but this in particular, yes, this in particular is a bold eye problem for.

[2540] you.

[2541] What do you mean?

[2542] Because people regularly mistake Indian people for...

[2543] Exactly.

[2544] Yeah, for Muslim.

[2545] So yeah, I'm acknowledging that this is of course a very powerful thing for you as it, how could it not be?

[2546] Yeah.

[2547] You're the person there he's talking about, he's suggesting that should be screened.

[2548] Yeah.

[2549] I'm someone who's going to be misrepresented and he's saying it's okay.

[2550] It's okay for me to have to endure that.

[2551] Right.

[2552] What's funny is that Sam's not including his Muslim countrymen into his liberty, right?

[2553] So he's thinking of probably he would say we can't lose our liberty just to achieve safety.

[2554] And he's probably not extending this sense of liberty to Islamic Americans.

[2555] But also a, you know, the percentage of people.

[2556] who walk into a gun store in this country who end up killing somebody or white.

[2557] Or white people.

[2558] Absolutely.

[2559] And so he would then, yeah, his defense would be, you need to put white males coming into a school off hours through a metal detector because that's who's going to be doing it.

[2560] You don't need to put the black guy through the metal detector because black dudes don't shoot up schools.

[2561] Or white kids.

[2562] A lot of these are white kids doing it.

[2563] Yeah.

[2564] So would he want his white kids?

[2565] to have to go through a special screening process every day.

[2566] Yeah.

[2567] So, Talib was mispronouncing.

[2568] He kept calling him Majid.

[2569] And his name is Majid.

[2570] Majid.

[2571] Mahjid.

[2572] Yeah.

[2573] Which, again, is not to take anything away from Talib's incredible name recall.

[2574] I know.

[2575] It was incredible.

[2576] And not even to take away from what he said.

[2577] I just wanted that he.

[2578] That is how you say is.

[2579] Sam heard it.

[2580] probably upset that that was not pronounced right and i would too if i were him um and and then and then he also said that he that sam invented the term regressive left i could not substantiate that i do know he uses it and him and a bunch of other people and i think maybe they were early to say it but i have not heard i did not see that he invented it or was the first person to say it or um sam is 51 Oh, he is?

[2581] Mm -hmm.

[2582] Okay, great.

[2583] Eight years my senior.

[2584] Yeah.

[2585] So I could end up as smart as him.

[2586] I have eight years to get as smart as him.

[2587] You think I can do it?

[2588] I think you're smart.

[2589] Enough.

[2590] Okay.

[2591] You said Judaism is the oldest religion and that it's 5 ,000 years old.

[2592] Of the main three.

[2593] So, yeah, you didn't say that.

[2594] And I don't know that we should say main three.

[2595] No, the three main religions on planet Earth are the two Judeo -Christian and, In Islam, those are numbers -wise, far and away, the most popular religions.

[2596] I don't know if that's true.

[2597] I can look at it.

[2598] Hinduism is the oldest religion.

[2599] Yeah.

[2600] Well, let's just be honest, we don't know what the oldest religion is because man's always had religion.

[2601] All cultures have a religion.

[2602] They have a origin theory.

[2603] Organized, I would say.

[2604] Yeah.

[2605] Organized religions that are still.

[2606] still in practice.

[2607] Okay, yeah.

[2608] So there is a lot of, there's not like a real start date for Judaism.

[2609] There's a lot of a, it's sort of amorphous as to when, but I was, it said that around, it was founded around the 9th to 5th century BCE, and it is the oldest monotheistic religion.

[2610] You are right.

[2611] Christianity was created in the first century and Islam was founded in the 7th century.

[2612] The reason I said 5 ,000, years old is that I do believe that they were practicing Judaism for a couple thousand years before they could write down the Old Testament.

[2613] I think that the actual Genesis and all that stuff was an oral tradition that then got written down in 1 ,000 BC or 9th century BC.

[2614] On the research I found most of it's citing about 3 ,500 years ago.

[2615] Oh, okay.

[2616] So you said 50 % of rabbis are atheists.

[2617] God, I hope that you could find something to back that out.

[2618] It's not true.

[2619] It's not true.

[2620] No. Well, in Israel, I said.

[2621] Because that's what I heard on an NPR thing, I think is where I heard.

[2622] Oh, you did.

[2623] I spoke to some people, one being the most informed Jewish person I know.

[2624] And she's incredibly knowledgeable.

[2625] She works at the JCC.

[2626] And she said, she said she's never heard that.

[2627] Okay.

[2628] And it would definitely not be 50%.

[2629] And she did say that, you know, rabbis often maybe faith or God isn't their main focus.

[2630] And they're more, you know, a lot of them can be more focused on social justice or just general goodness and all of these things.

[2631] is more of their focus.

[2632] But she said there's also kind of, there would be no way to really find that statistic because they would not be able to say very openly, there is no God and be a rabbi.

[2633] Okay.

[2634] So we definitely can't say 50 % of rabbis are atheists.

[2635] And that was just a point you made.

[2636] So I just want to be very clear about that.

[2637] Okay.

[2638] You also said they're the least literal.

[2639] interpreters of the text.

[2640] Again, when I was talking to her, she said, and it was a few people actually, that's also not really true.

[2641] There's all these different levels of Judaism, right?

[2642] Reformed, traditional orthodox.

[2643] So it just depends.

[2644] You've probably been exposed to many reformed Jewish people, as have I. And yes, many reform Jews do take it less, a little bit less literally.

[2645] Let me be more specific.

[2646] I've never observed a Christian baptizing their child and then also saying, by the way, we don't believe in God, but we're going to baptize, we're going to go through this custom and this tradition and ritual, but we actually don't believe in God.

[2647] I've never witnessed that.

[2648] I've never witnessed a Christian performing one outside of Christmas.

[2649] People do celebrate Christmas who don't believe in God.

[2650] But I have numerous Jewish friends who don't believe in God and do all the traditions.

[2651] Yes, because.

[2652] That could be my own anecdotal observation, yeah.

[2653] Uh -huh.

[2654] That's because Judaism has such a strong cultural component to it, that the other religions don't have as much.

[2655] Right.

[2656] So that is common.

[2657] You're right.

[2658] There's a lot of people who follow Jewish traditions and follow that culture, but don't believe in God.

[2659] But I don't think we can make the equivalency to Christianity because.

[2660] Again, like they don't have the cultural elements to it that you could follow and sort of be a part of, again, besides Christmas, which if that's our only indicator, people are doing that.

[2661] I celebrate the hell out of Christmas.

[2662] Me too.

[2663] It's so fun.

[2664] It's the best.

[2665] By the way, I don't think you are going to find much data on this theory of mine about, you know, percentage of metaphorical interpretation versus percentage of literal because I've not taken this theory from anyone.

[2666] is just something I've thought of on my own.

[2667] Yeah.

[2668] I would love for someone to actually, you know, come up with a concrete way to study it and get some data behind it.

[2669] But that feels right still.

[2670] I still stand by this observation.

[2671] I do think that that's true.

[2672] But that's just people you know, though.

[2673] Sure.

[2674] It's just a matter of the type of worship you do.

[2675] If you're an Orthodox Jew, those things are literal.

[2676] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2677] So you're just not exposed to that.

[2678] I'm not.

[2679] You're right.

[2680] Talib said, George Bush said, God told me I need to get rid of Saddam Hussein.

[2681] But he said, very similarly, he said, God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq.

[2682] Oh, boy.

[2683] The Fareed Zakari episode of Sam Harris is episode 83, called The Politics of Emergency.

[2684] It's very good.

[2685] I would recommend it.

[2686] Yeah, I love that episode.

[2687] The Martin Luther King quote is, it's, first, I must confess that over the last few years, I've been gravely disappointed with the white moderate.

[2688] I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the white citizens counselor or the Ku Klux Klanar, but the white moderate who is more devoted to, quote, order than to justice, who prefers a negative piece, which is the absence of tension to a positive piece, which is the presence of justice, who constantly says, I agree with you and the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action, who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man. freedom who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the negro to wait until a quote more convenient season um that's the one i'm super guilty of like i found myself being guilty of that where i i want to focus on the progress that's been made like when i hear um complaints which are well deserved my instinct is to go oh yeah but look i'm just a glass half full person so i'll be i'll go well yeah but look how much has changed and look how much a better it is and so but it's it's a weird instinct i'm just trying i don't know what it is but i suffice to say i that describes me quite often yeah you said sam you said sam has a proclivity and a perversion for the truth and i would not say it's it's for the truth i think it's for logic that's that's what i have gleaned after what listening to so many episodes of of his, that he puts facts and logic, as you do, I think often, as the most important element in a conversation, in the way we view things.

[2689] It should be, it's paramount.

[2690] And I think that often comes at a cost of looking at a whole picture.

[2691] Ironically, I think it's actually illogical to look at the world.

[2692] by facts only and not by context and emotional elements and all of those things because the reality of the world is all of those things are factors.

[2693] Yeah, especially for us humans.

[2694] Yeah.

[2695] And so if you take them out, you're still only getting a portion of the whole picture.

[2696] The physical world.

[2697] Yeah.

[2698] Yeah.

[2699] I agree.

[2700] And the reason I call it a proclivity or a perversion is that I suffer from it myself.

[2701] And it comes at a great cost sometimes.

[2702] And you're not making yourself happier and you're not making your world better or more loving.

[2703] And that's that's not smart.

[2704] One more thing that I just want to end on.

[2705] I am quitting the show.

[2706] This is my last fact.

[2707] No. I am a little bummed.

[2708] I was thinking about it after the fact, and especially when I was going back and listening.

[2709] I am upset with myself that I didn't have a louder voice in the, especially the elements of the conversation.

[2710] about me too and female, all that stuff.

[2711] That applies way more to me than it applies to two men sitting in a room.

[2712] For sure.

[2713] I have no problem generally expressing my opinion, but I think that is sort of a weird microcosm for the whole issue in general.

[2714] 100%.

[2715] That was exact.

[2716] I think you're dead right.

[2717] I think it's a total microcosm of the whole thing and why this issue even exists is because men feel like they have this right to kind of.

[2718] constantly dominate or assert themselves and insert themselves anywhere.

[2719] Yes.

[2720] I certainly do.

[2721] And women don't seem to have that, feel like they have that right or maybe there's biological components and cultural components.

[2722] Yeah, but I don't think, yes, I think generally it's nature and nurture that's contributing to this problem.

[2723] But I don't, I'm not, I am, I am assertive.

[2724] So it's not like by nature I'm not and I'm trying to.

[2725] force myself to be that or something but and I'm very comfortable with you so it's not and and Talib was incredibly wonderful and I wasn't like you know afraid of him but there is something or intimidated by him I was because he was so smart but but there is something about feeling like you have like if you're a woman in a room with men everything you say has to be extra good or extra profound Like the Chris Rock joke Well you got to be the best R &B singer In the world to live in the neighborhood The average white dentist Yeah exactly Yes you're right Yeah and you have to sort of Claw your way into the conversation And make yourself known Whereas no one else in that room is doing that Everyone feels entitled Great and so you bringing that up You've kind of wanted to bring this up Point out what you've observed now doing 30 whatever fact checks and all this stuff episodes.

[2726] Yeah, the difference between male and female guests when they come in.

[2727] Yeah.

[2728] I've noticed a lot of gender discrepancies.

[2729] One being, I edit the show and really, I just take out people's ums and things like that.

[2730] Or if they go home and they go, I really wish I hadn't called so -and -so an asshole.

[2731] Exactly.

[2732] Then we take that out.

[2733] When I edit episodes with female guests, I've noticed that women often say things very clearly.

[2734] They, they, get their point across very clearly and are often very eloquent and have wonderful things to say and then immediately it's followed with a backtrack.

[2735] It's immediately like, yeah, but I mean, but I don't really know.

[2736] I don't, I mean, yeah, but maybe.

[2737] I don't really know what I'm talking about.

[2738] They mitigate what they just said.

[2739] It's a self -deprecation.

[2740] That too was in the Malcolm Gladwell book about the culture in a cockpit in an airplane that different countries that have these power structure dynamics where they're very afraid of power and they're they don't make great co -pilots because a co -pilot is supposed to go like hey dude there's ice on the wing stop and if they are in a culture that's really hierarchical um they'll go like looks like a lot of ice on the wing they have all these transcripts and it leads to accidents oh wow there's airlines had to adopt a policy would you know change the dynamic between the pilot and the co -pilot when they were at at their destination they like the co -pilot used to draw a bath for the pilot like all these all these crazy things they had to change that way that the co -pilot would feel empowered to say stop yeah there's a problem yeah anyways to have some sense of authority there and i think women in general have occupied this lower power status in our country for so long that you it parallels that a lot it does yeah yeah it feels like a struggle to have to say something definitively even though they are they're speaking very clearly and then it immediately is like but did I make any sense?

[2741] I don't know and it's just a check on yourself that none I think I will literally say none of the men that have come in here I've done it and most of the women have not all there's been some exceptions Katie Couric being one who is used to not having to do that she was extra greatest interviewer of all time yeah it required her all that clout yeah so i've noticed that and then also i've noticed i'm a little hesitant to say it because i don't want people to think like well i don't want them to think a lot of things but i've noticed that the men are no i'll say this i've noticed that the women are very engaging with me and that could be due to a lot of reasons I'm probably safe I'm another girl there we can talk you know we can talk a little bit yeah exactly we can talk a little bit more female friendly we connect on that level immediately so there's there's that element of it but also they probably know what it's like to be excluded yes I think that's more what it is there's like this innate camaraderie that happens when it's a female who knows what the position is of me. And also, I think the women, and this might be biological, more nurturing of the environment and looking and saying there's a person here.

[2742] I'm going to include that person.

[2743] I want that person to be a part of this.

[2744] What does this person think who's sitting right next to me?

[2745] Women are probably a little bit less exclusionary than men.

[2746] Maybe.

[2747] I mean, that might not be true.

[2748] I don't know.

[2749] But that's what it feels like to me. And then when the men come in, everyone has been so kind and wonderful and lovely.

[2750] But they don't do that.

[2751] Some have.

[2752] I don't want to, some have.

[2753] And even when they do, it's different.

[2754] It's an acknowledgement.

[2755] It's a looking at me. That's what you pointed out to me when you made this observation is that you end up cutting out a lot of your, uh -huh, uh -huhs.

[2756] Because they seem like they're coming out of nowhere because what the listener can't, C is that the mail guess is looking at you for a response or some kind of approval or it's exactly.

[2757] So they're not looking at me for a response.

[2758] They're not looking at me to actually speak and have and be involved.

[2759] They're looking at me to say, yeah, to boost them a little bit and say like, yeah.

[2760] And I think it's all subconscious, by the way.

[2761] I don't think there's a lot of them talking to you, looking at me, talking to you, kind of looking at me after they say, something.

[2762] And the women generally have been like, Monica, what do you think?

[2763] It's just different.

[2764] Yeah.

[2765] The problem is, I don't really know what to do with that knowledge.

[2766] Right.

[2767] And this was the thing I pointed out to you that I think is relevant because I've been on a lot of people's shows.

[2768] And I know personally that I have engaged with the co -host a lot more when the interviewer is a woman.

[2769] So like when I've gone to do on a show, I'll check in with Sim a lot.

[2770] And when I go to Chris Hardwick's show, I won't check in with his co -host.

[2771] And that's because, from my own point of view, which I think speaks to a lot of males' point of view, when two men sit across from each other and they start talking, it is primitive in that it's an alpha contest.

[2772] There's testosterone.

[2773] There's a dominant thing.

[2774] There's these male things that when a male sits across from me, it's this weird, even when it's going lovingly and wonderful, there is a mail -on -mail competition that you kind of block everything else out.

[2775] But when I sit down with Anna, Ferris, I'm not, I don't feel competitive with her.

[2776] I just, it's not engaged in me. So now I'm like, I'm less on the attack.

[2777] I'm less aggressive and all these things.

[2778] And that now opens me up to everyone else in the room.

[2779] So I do think a lot of the guys sit down and they're like, oh, here comes a male -on -mail interaction.

[2780] And it's just kind of ape -like.

[2781] Yeah, I think it depends on the person.

[2782] and how much security they have.

[2783] When I'm with Chris, I'm like, keep up, man, keep up.

[2784] You can't fucking, you know, you can't fail in this situation.

[2785] Like, it's like playing one -on -one basketball all of a sudden.

[2786] I know, but it's like, but I guess what sort of inherently bothersome about that is you should be feeling that way about Anna.

[2787] Like you, you shouldn't.

[2788] I shouldn't feel that way about anybody.

[2789] I think the thing to aspire to is to not feel competitive with anyone.

[2790] It's not even competitive, like, yes, you're right, you're right.

[2791] You shouldn't walk into a room and feel like there's a threat to your intellectual, safety in having a conversation with someone but still if you're going to feel that way you should feel it about any person that's sitting across from you but I don't think I think 90 % of my brain is still evolved a million years ago when if you came up upon another strange animal that looked like you and that strange animal was your size you you acted appropriately to survive and if you came up on an animal that was half your size because our sexual dimorphism is such is that you're literally half my size.

[2792] You're not a threat to 90 % of my brain, the reptilian brain.

[2793] You just don't trigger that sense of threat or dominant submission, all these things.

[2794] And I just think that's just going to be always going to be a biological component.

[2795] And I thought it was really well articulated when someone was pointing out what it's like to be a woman.

[2796] And imagine stepping into an elevator when you're a woman.

[2797] and every man that walks into this box with you, when the door's shut, you're standing next to an animal that's twice your size.

[2798] And if he chose could overpower you.

[2799] And what it's like to go through life in those situations.

[2800] And I thought, oh, my God, that's a great insight for me to think about because I don't get in an elevator and think, oh, the dude next to me can overpower me at any moment he'd like to.

[2801] Yeah.

[2802] And that's just jungle shit that we'll never escape.

[2803] Well, we have to try.

[2804] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2805] That's what I'm saying.

[2806] We can't say we'll never escape it because, Because that's like saying, well, this is the way it is and that's it.

[2807] No, no, no, no, no. I don't mean that.

[2808] I mean, let's first acknowledge why it's happening so that we can quiet that part of our brain because we understand it.

[2809] We understand what's going on in this situation.

[2810] So what I'm saying is I do aspire to sit down with all humans like I would sit down with Anna and not feel threatened because we don't live in the jungle anymore.

[2811] You're right, but it's strange to me that that's what's happening because the confrontation is verbal in any of these conversations.

[2812] So it's not like we're standing up in a wrestling ring or something.

[2813] And of course you're not going to be threatened by a woman there, most likely.

[2814] Like that to me makes total sense.

[2815] But this is a vying of brains.

[2816] And it's a little strange that the automatic is that a man is requiring me to be a little bit more on step.

[2817] than a woman is.

[2818] But let's even go, let's go deeper.

[2819] So in Anthro, when we look at hunting and gathering societies, there isn't the power structure goes alpha male, beta male, right?

[2820] It doesn't, men are never competing with women for their place in the hierarchy.

[2821] There's a female hierarchy and then there's a male hierarchy.

[2822] So every time a male's interacting with a male, he's trying to figure out his position in this situation.

[2823] Yeah.

[2824] And I do think that happens with women as well.

[2825] I think when two women get together or three women, you subconsciously start being aware of like, what's everyone's dynamic?

[2826] Who's the leader of this group?

[2827] You know, but I don't think that crosses genders too much.

[2828] Even though it would make sense for it to now, because we now have a workplace and specialize.

[2829] We are evolved.

[2830] And you actually are competing with women in the workplace.

[2831] There is a structure that is now blended, but just none of our evolution prepared us for that.

[2832] This is like a brand new thing on the blip of, you know, where this is a blip on the overall timeline of mammals on Planned Earth.

[2833] Yeah, it is.

[2834] But we are evolved humans at this point in time.

[2835] So I think it's a little bit of a cop out to blame our primate level of thinking in our current system.

[2836] But again, understanding the reason isn't an excuse.

[2837] So I'm not saying that it's right that it's happening or it should continue to happen.

[2838] I'm just, I'm interested in why it's happening.

[2839] You're interested in why it's happening.

[2840] Women are interested in fixing it.

[2841] That's just really what it boils down to.

[2842] You can be interested in why.

[2843] And I am too from an academic standpoint.

[2844] But then what has to be part of the conversation is this is why.

[2845] So what do we do now?

[2846] And sometimes I think what do we do now gets left out of the conversation.

[2847] Sure.

[2848] But let's pretend that we design Utopia and that one of your classes in high school is a whole semester where you go which I would love like understand all this vestigial evolution you have so that you can police it I think you first have to be able to recognize what's really happening because we're just interpreting it as real emotions they feel very real and grounded and reasonable and then when we kind of break down what's actually being triggered it gets preposterous and then we can kind of right size it and then sweep it away yeah you know I hope That's, yeah, I hope too.

[2849] I feel bad for us that we have all that wiring.

[2850] Yeah.

[2851] That's it, really.

[2852] All right.

[2853] Some observation.

[2854] I like your observations.

[2855] Thank.

[2856] Keep them coming.

[2857] Okay.

[2858] I will.

[2859] That's all.

[2860] Good night.

[2861] Good night.

[2862] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcast.

[2863] You can listen to every episode of Armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry.

[2864] app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2865] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.