Pete Wentz

[0] Hello, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I am your host, Dax Shepard.

[2] Today I'm going to speak with Pete Wins, who is the bass player for Fallout Boy, very popular band, a loved band.

[3] I know Pete, socially through our mutual friend Ryan Hanson, I've probably hung out with him at their house a couple dozen times, and he's been to our house.

[4] He's a very, very nice guy.

[5] He's got a couple kids, and that makes him ideal double date scenario for us.

[6] And I didn't know much about him, and I read a lot about him before the night I interviewed him.

[7] And I was excited to find out that he, like myself, has had some emotional trials up and down.

[8] And I had a lovely time talking to him.

[9] And I hope you'll have a lovely time listening to us.

[10] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[11] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[12] or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[13] He's in all these places.

[14] And you're kind of like just Yeah, weren't the Beatles really popular in Germany?

[15] Yeah, and that's where they started all the point in a strip club there, right?

[16] Yeah, and they started into Hamburg and got like some of them got kicked out, I think, for weed.

[17] Uh -huh.

[18] Yeah.

[19] You can do like a Beatles tour in Hamburg.

[20] All right, well, I want to talk about all this officially.

[21] Rob, are we on?

[22] Pete Wentz, welcome to the armchair expert podcast.

[23] Hello.

[24] You really crammed me in because you're leaving tomorrow morning for Berlin.

[25] Yes.

[26] I thank you for that.

[27] Yeah, of course.

[28] And you know what's really fun about this is I know you socially.

[29] Yes.

[30] Which is a great way to just, we're friends with Ryan Hansen and Amy Hansen, probably the most fun couple in Los Angeles.

[31] Definitely.

[32] And you just were at their house one time and I was like, oh, that guy's a rock star.

[33] and but you are so humble you're like the most you're shockingly humble rock star that it's easy to forget that you are one which is I think a compliment to you yeah thanks man I think that because it's like a thing where like I don't know how you think about it but I like think of myself as like the 14 year old in the punk rock band like I don't think of myself you know like yes it's hard to own like I always I'm always jealous when I I used to watch American Idol.

[34] Did you ever watch any of those seasons?

[35] Totally.

[36] So there's a moment in every season of American Idol where it gets down to the final four or whatever.

[37] And then they go home to their small town and they take like a ride in a convertible.

[38] There's a parade.

[39] Totally.

[40] And they're waving and they're crying and they're like experiencing the adulation.

[41] And I've always watched that was such great envy thinking like, I've never had that moment where I was like, I made it.

[42] Totally.

[43] Yes.

[44] It's happened.

[45] Totally.

[46] You know what I'm saying?

[47] But they really seem to be able to experience that.

[48] Can you stomach that?

[49] Like, can you connect your own identity to that level of success?

[50] One of the things being in a band that people sometimes do is like you'll go to hotel pool or whatever.

[51] And they play your song and like makes me want to throw up.

[52] Like, I can't think of anything.

[53] Uh -huh.

[54] You know, like more.

[55] It's like, yeah.

[56] Because then I'm like, do people think I put it?

[57] I don't know.

[58] It is a very confusing experience.

[59] The only thing I can compare to that is a few different times I've been flying like internationally and I'll be walking back and forth to the bathroom.

[60] You know what I did a USO tour where we flew to Qatar or Kuwait, whatever it was.

[61] And on the plane, they had a couple movies just by chance that I was in.

[62] And on the walk back and forth the bathroom, I noticed like six different people were watching movies I was in.

[63] And it was just all very confusing.

[64] I kept going like, oh, this must be exciting for them.

[65] I tried to think about, oh, that would be cool.

[66] I would like it if I was watching a movie.

[67] And I looked up in the guy who just jumped off a roof or whatever was now going to this shitter.

[68] Totally.

[69] But it is.

[70] It's all very confusing too.

[71] And then I'm like, oh, I'm an egomaniac.

[72] No one cares that you're on this plane.

[73] You know.

[74] I always think of it in the terms of like, what's the experience somebody would want from, like, how do they view you?

[75] What would the experience be that they would want?

[76] Yes.

[77] You know what I mean?

[78] That's a very generous way to look at.

[79] Well, like, I remember I was in, I was at the dentist's office, just riding down the elevator and I don't know him at all, but like Jack Black was behind me. I'm getting out of the elevator.

[80] He just does this weird, like, look where it was like, I'm doing this look to you, but like, no one's going to, like, you'll tell, tell anyone the story and it won't, like, and it was the perfect.

[81] That's like all I needed from it.

[82] You know, like, and getting that sometimes is awesome.

[83] Stern talks about that a lot where if you're, uh, whatever, mildly famous and then you run into someone else who's famous, there is this awkward moment where you're like, Well, I know who you are, and then you're kind of looking to see if they know.

[84] Like, do you?

[85] Yeah, they know who you are.

[86] I would be thrilled, yeah, for Jack Black to give me a little rhythm.

[87] Yeah, and it was like the perfect, like, I'm doing like a real weird face to you.

[88] Like, whatever.

[89] It's great, you know.

[90] Like, we didn't talk at all.

[91] It was great.

[92] Yeah, so he gave you basically the experience you wanted from him.

[93] Yes.

[94] That was nice of him.

[95] Yeah.

[96] But don't you think people just want an experience.

[97] They don't really care what it is.

[98] They just want to walk away with saying, oh, they did some person did this or they did that or they want a story.

[99] There's some people I think you want a particular, to me, you want a particular experience from, like the rock, you want the like, you know, like, there's certain people and there's certain people who are like, you don't want to catch him on the day that he's depressed.

[100] Yeah, or like off duty or something.

[101] You know, like that's like the off duty you don't want, you know?

[102] Though I think some people would be like, I'm at the rock and he was nothing like he comes off.

[103] Like people want that too, which is bad.

[104] I totally agree with Monica.

[105] I think ultimately some part of your brain knows, oh, I'm going to be repeating this story.

[106] Like the first famous person I ever saw was Jay Leno.

[107] He was at the corner of a sunset and tower.

[108] And I was on vacation with like my buddies from Detroit.

[109] And we pulled up to the light and we looked to the left.

[110] Well, first we were like, oh, there's a cyclone with Corvette wheels.

[111] Who would have that?

[112] Because we're your heads.

[113] And then it's Jay Leno.

[114] So now we're telling him like, roll down the window.

[115] Roll down the window.

[116] We're signaling him.

[117] And God bless him.

[118] He rolled down the window.

[119] and he just, he got, hi, you know, he looked at us and we're like, oh my God, we love your cyclone with the vet wheels.

[120] And then it kind of, he was like, he's stoked.

[121] Yeah, because it was like car talk and not, right.

[122] Yeah.

[123] And then he's like, and then he floored it and took off really fast.

[124] And it was very, very exciting.

[125] But at any rate, I do think when someone meets someone like that, they immediately go like, oh, I'm going to be repeating this to somebody, right?

[126] So I have to have a conclusion.

[127] I can't just go like, oh, I saw Pete in an elevator.

[128] And then people are like, and what was he?

[129] Was he shorter than you thought?

[130] Was he taller?

[131] Totally.

[132] Was he a dick?

[133] Was he a dick?

[134] Yes.

[135] Was he a dick or was he not a dick?

[136] Yes.

[137] And there's a lot of pressure on that person to come to a pretty severe conclusion about you in a very short.

[138] So my first experience with a famous person, I think, was we'd come out here.

[139] We were living at the Oakwoods.

[140] Oh my God.

[141] That's right.

[142] You don't know what the Oakwoods are.

[143] There's a great documentary on Netflix about it.

[144] And it's where every child actor comes during pilot season.

[145] It's super depressing.

[146] It's so sad.

[147] Yeah.

[148] A lot of stage moms and like all not good.

[149] So we were out here.

[150] We go to me and Patrick who sings a ballboy.

[151] We went to a show, a ska show at the time.

[152] And we're at the show and we don't know.

[153] We also didn't know like the etiquette of because there's like an etiquette to you see.

[154] It's regional.

[155] And so we see Goldberg from the Mighty Ducks who is the bigger guy.

[156] You know the bigger guy on Mighty Ducks From the movie The Mighty Ducks And we're going like Oh it's Goldberg from the mighty that's like You know and he can hear us But we don't know that that's like not really cool to do So we're saying and we're pointing at him like way too close He knows it all And we're like no it's not him He's not responding like you know he clearly is hearing Goldberg over him some clues like If you're him go ahead and not Yeah and he's not doing any of it And then on the way out he walks by us And he's like quack quack fuck you Oh, that's great.

[157] And I was like, this is the greatest story.

[158] And it gives you a conclusion and it's the greatest, you know.

[159] Yes.

[160] So my personal experience with this where it occurred to me that that is what's happening is I was in Las Vegas and I was gambling one night.

[161] I hope I can remember every little step of this.

[162] But I was gambling one night.

[163] And then I was my cousin was going to meet me. So it's a huge casino.

[164] So I tell him like, oh, there's a nightclub there light.

[165] Why don't you meet me by the line?

[166] Because that'll be easy to find.

[167] So I'm there, and I'm also incidentally wearing flip -flops, whatever, it's like summer in Vegas.

[168] And so I meet up with my cousin, and then that's that.

[169] The next night, I'm sitting at like a blackjack table, and this girl next to me goes like, oh my God, I heard what happened to you last night?

[170] And I go, oh, what happened?

[171] She goes, they threw you out of light because you were wearing flip -flops.

[172] And I go, no, no, I didn't go into light last night.

[173] And she goes, no, no, my friend saw you.

[174] like you were kicked out of light for wearing flip -lops.

[175] And then I started like really trying to like armchair analyze this.

[176] Like what, why is that the story?

[177] And then I think here's what happened.

[178] I think the cousin said, oh my God, I saw Dak Shepard in line at light.

[179] And then she went, uh -huh, and because I'm not Tom Cruise.

[180] It's not enough to just say you spotted me. Like there better be more to this story than just you saw Jack Shepard in life.

[181] And then I think she started improvbing.

[182] Right.

[183] He was wearing flip -lops, which was true.

[184] And now she's like, he was kicked out because of him, you know?

[185] Right.

[186] And I imagine there's a lot of stories like that floating around about a lot of people.

[187] Yeah.

[188] And lots of stuff like if you were walking by a place, maybe you were kicked out of it or you were like, you know, like it's just like putting it all together.

[189] Like putting it all together.

[190] And from your perspective and like what do I want this?

[191] Like what is the story I want to walk away with from this?

[192] I have a crazy one.

[193] Well, it's not super crazy.

[194] It's a little.

[195] It's a little bit.

[196] But we had this bar that we, so in like 2005 or 2006, I would.

[197] go to like bars in New York with my friends who were not in a band or whatever and they wouldn't let they let like three of them in but they wouldn't let like all of us in so it was like well let's just open our own bar because then we can all get in and it's whatever so we opened this uh it was just this like dive bar so we opened this in alphabet city you like couldn't get a drink I got kicked out of the bar my own bar a couple of times but on the opening night uh and we were like kind of like we were nothing like we didn't have like it wasn't like there was like a red carpet and like celebrities came out you know it was just whatever but on the opening night of it James Gandalfini went oh my god next door to it oh wow or like something and was caught like you know like it seems like he had gone there and so we like didn't we didn't explain that that wasn't what happened yeah you didn't do not yeah yeah we're like you know he might have got kicked out of light for the flip flops we don't know yeah lying to omission yes I've on a couple different occasions had drivers that had driven Gandalfini to work.

[198] Right.

[199] And I think he partied pretty good.

[200] Okay.

[201] Yeah.

[202] Yeah.

[203] So he was next door party, maybe.

[204] Yeah.

[205] He probably doesn't know that he didn't go to your car or at that time.

[206] He didn't.

[207] But you grew up, you're younger than me, which is a bummer for me. Not much, though.

[208] Yeah, yeah.

[209] Four and a half years.

[210] So you were, you were born in 1979.

[211] You were a summer baby and you were brought home to a Chicago suburb.

[212] Yes.

[213] That's accurate.

[214] Yes.

[215] Because here's the fun thing about being friends with you and just, again, knowing you as a human being and not knowing you as a rock star is that I read a lot about you last night.

[216] And now I know a bunch about you.

[217] And it's just a weird dynamic because we're just friends.

[218] And you would have probably slowly told me a lot of these things.

[219] But I kind of got them all last night.

[220] Totally.

[221] You went in.

[222] But your parents, if any of this is correct, your mother was an admissions counselor.

[223] And your father was a lawyer.

[224] Yep.

[225] And they met campaigning for Biden.

[226] for a senatorial bid.

[227] So just right there on paper, that to me, would you agree, Monica, sounds like the dream parents to have.

[228] Like they're liberal, they're educated, they're professional.

[229] Yeah.

[230] They're active politically.

[231] Yeah.

[232] Was it like growing up with Dr. Huxstable?

[233] Was it perfect?

[234] No, I mean, quite as perfect as it seems.

[235] Well, pretend you don't know.

[236] Again, I'm talking about Huxstable, not the man who portrayed Huxstable.

[237] I think that, it's funny because I like talk to some of our friends about it.

[238] It's like, so we were like this sole kind of like liberal family in a not super liberal waspies.

[239] Because it was a wealthy kind of suburb.

[240] Yeah, and it was wispy and whatever and we weren't.

[241] And so it was weird because like my parent, like I didn't get, I wasn't allowed to watch TV.

[242] I didn't eat sweet cereal.

[243] Like my parents would like, we would have to go to like the Ethiopian restaurant or whatever.

[244] which now in retrospect it's like getting piano lessons like 30 years later you're like it's dope I can like play piano for my friends but when you're like a little kid you're like this sucks I just want to eat McDonald's and be like normal so we were like weird you know I mean oh you know Robin Caitlin right yes so Rob McElhenney and Caitlin Olson I've known Caitlin forever and her mother was was super granoli and she had never had real peanut butter that her mother hadn't fucking ground up you know in the kitchen sink and it does it can create like a fetish you can fetishize all this trash.

[245] Yes.

[246] If you don't go up with that.

[247] Totally.

[248] It can kind of backfire too.

[249] I mean, when I left my parents' house, I watched TV for maybe, like it was my job.

[250] I mean, because I just didn't have it.

[251] So like I was like, and it kind of, and it like the thing you said, it kind of backfired because it was like I had these ideas.

[252] I was like, it's like this land that I haven't really been a part of.

[253] Yeah.

[254] Yeah.

[255] Sugar and.

[256] Totally.

[257] Formulaic TV.

[258] I similarly did something which is because we were poor and we lived too far away from Detroit to be getting a good signal.

[259] We couldn't afford cable.

[260] So I watched very little.

[261] I had to go to a friend's house to watch Dukes a Hazard.

[262] And same thing.

[263] I moved to Santa Barbara and I stole cable from my neighbor.

[264] And that's virtually what I did for one year.

[265] It's just consume 12 hours of TV a day.

[266] So also, I don't really understand this explanation.

[267] But I want to say that it said your mother is, I'm repeating.

[268] Yeah, go.

[269] Afro Jamaican.

[270] Yeah, that's what, can we say that?

[271] Yeah, sure.

[272] So on my mother's side Your grandfather was Yeah He's not But his parents were Jamaican Cole and Paul is my second cousin That's crazy Yeah Yeah And well And even your grandfather is very historic too Because he he had some political thing He was an ambassador Sierra Leone Yes That's pretty wild Yeah it's pretty crazy So did your mother go to Sarah Leone While he was an ambassador?

[273] So my mom would like Was like kind of an army brat so she kind of grew up everywhere except he was an officer so like whatever but she grew up in Italy and I don't know if she went to Sierra Leone but there's like this picture I was just at my grandpa's house or apartment and there's a picture of him on a plane with Muhammad Ali and I was like well what is this and there's like a couple other guys and he's like oh this is when like I think it was Jimmy Carter I don't know who was but like was sending them around to all the African countries and being like you should I think it was like you should shouldn't participate in the Olympic, like the, it was like to do with communism.

[274] It was like, and they were on some like, yeah, and they were on some like, I was like, that's a crazy picture.

[275] Someone told me a Muhammad Ali's story was that, um, when he would pay for anything.

[276] And this is like, you got to think about this in the context of, we didn't have ATMs, like, like electronic stuff wasn't what it was, but that he would go when he went to the grocery store, if he like spent $2 at the grocery store, he would write a check because nobody cashed any of his checks.

[277] Oh, really?

[278] Because they wanted the signature.

[279] Oh.

[280] Oh, that's brilliant.

[281] Super smart, right?

[282] I would, I would 100 % do that.

[283] Super smart.

[284] Anything under like $100, I probably would have.

[285] You think so?

[286] You can adopt that.

[287] I could sell them something.

[288] Yeah.

[289] Or you think I should start right.

[290] No, you can't do it anymore though because I think checks don't like can't, like it doesn't work the same way because of electronic banking or something, right?

[291] Well, I think of for many reasons probably wouldn't work.

[292] A, I'm not Muhammad Ali.

[293] be I think people have phones now and they'd far rather have a photograph with you than they would like a canceled check or a voided check don't you think totally which is wild to me because like if I could hang out with Axel Rose I would pick a conversation over him over a photo any day of the week yes I've kind of lamented about that as well publicly which makes me sound like a brat but it is it is true you get the sense while it's happening like oh this really doesn't have anything to do with me they may or may not even like me if myself seems low I'm definitely definitely thinking that at the time.

[294] And I go, oh, they just want something for their Facebook page.

[295] Right.

[296] And I'm offering to chat with them, you know, and then they're not so interested in that.

[297] But, you know, whatever.

[298] Poor us.

[299] Yeah.

[300] I think that's everywhere now.

[301] People just want pictures.

[302] They want to capture every moment, regardless of.

[303] Rightly so, they want their own cultural capital.

[304] They want to kind of, you know, they want something that's going to get.

[305] Everyone's a brand.

[306] Everyone is a brand.

[307] Yes.

[308] And how can I be critical of that?

[309] I want a ton of attention.

[310] So whatever.

[311] But I do tend to hate in others what I hate about.

[312] myself so I am critical but you okay so you grew up in a pretty affluent what kind of lawyer is your dad he is a court he was a corporate lawyer so he's not going in like you know standing up alec bald and sound like unbuttoning or buttoning whatever he did you know before he's like so he when I was little uh in the 80s he uh was a corporate lawyer at helene curtis which is like doing mergers or doing intellectual properties I think it was a lot of like we can't say that this was not tested on animals it was a lot of like um like how it was all worded and like that kind of stuff sure but he basically um it's interesting because it like kind of has influenced how i parent a little bit or something but like he was just not around and like literally wasn't around like he was just working all the time and it took me until i was like 30 to be like oh he was like working so i could like you know but i didn't it's hard to like conceptualize that as a kid you know no no because you yes you and by the way it's not as valuable as your time with your dad.

[313] Whatever those things were you guys had totally.

[314] It probably isn't ultimately but yeah I have a good friend who went to Harvard Law and she came out here and she was practicing and then she had two kids and she said like I either need to quit or I need to go to part -time and her firm luckily for her said we'll make you part -time and for her part -time is 45 hours a week that's literally what part -time in the lawyering world is it's probably from every friend I've ever had who's been a lawyer it might be the worst job on the planet.

[315] Yeah, pretty crazy.

[316] The hours are just insane.

[317] And you're like the most hated person.

[318] But so my dad went from that to, and then he worked with a group that abolished the death penalty in Illinois.

[319] Oh, really?

[320] After that in the 90s.

[321] And then after that, he was the dean of law at Northwestern law.

[322] Oh, no kidding.

[323] And now he teaches law some.

[324] And then, like, now my dad has one of those, like, because I have a couple friends that have that.

[325] Like, he has a job that I don't like really, like, I try to explain to people and I don't really understand it myself.

[326] Sure.

[327] I'm like, he, like, advises, like, you know what?

[328] People are like, I don't know.

[329] Yeah, so he's kind of like a consultant.

[330] And anyone who has a job as a consultant, that's, yeah.

[331] Very big.

[332] Yeah, it's like real hard to like, like.

[333] And how do you, how do you quantify it?

[334] How do you monetize it?

[335] Like, if I give you a little bit of advice.

[336] Yeah.

[337] What's that work?

[338] Yeah, totally.

[339] How much scratch?

[340] Does he have to feign, like it took him hours to think of this advice?

[341] I mean, I have no idea.

[342] But he was telling me, but so he advises and now he'll help with.

[343] mergers.

[344] So he did, he worked was one of many lawyers that did the United Continental merger.

[345] But when it was happening, he didn't, like, he was just like, I'm going to do stuff, you know, because he can't say anything at all.

[346] And I'm like, you could just slip me something.

[347] And he was like, you would, we would get, it would be so.

[348] You potentially could do some really great insider trade.

[349] Yeah.

[350] And he was like, they, like this, there's an immediate circle where like, if you do any, like any of these people do anything.

[351] I'm not in that circle.

[352] I know.

[353] Like, like, slip it up.

[354] I'm three degrees of separation away from.

[355] But then he'll like, tell.

[356] But then he'll tell me, like, he was working with a snack company that had had a factory line worker who was peeing in the snacks that they didn't find out about until two years later.

[357] So, like, those snacks were out there, you know?

[358] And so he was, and I was like, I don't know how you consult on that.

[359] I am critical of corporations as most libtards are.

[360] But I will say this.

[361] I often am feeling terrible for corporations that they ultimately are responsible for the actions of some.

[362] nut job employee they have like you're kind of regularly reading about you know even the airlines right so however the on the ground flight attendants handling this debacle that's now online it's not the company it's like this yeah it's their responsibility so i am a little sympathetic to you have all these people working for you you can't really control all these people but i wonder can you or not because i wonder about like like like Disneyland you don't like hear about it well that's a pretty good point How?

[363] I see the lawyering in your blood.

[364] Totally.

[365] It's all.

[366] It's irrefutable point.

[367] But growing up in this neighborhood, I would say on the surface, it's like you're, I'm sure you guys are financially right in the thick of it.

[368] You're not feeling poor.

[369] Your mother's half black.

[370] Is that accurate?

[371] Is that a source of any kind of in that neighborhood?

[372] Is that, is that no big deal in 1980?

[373] Or is it a big deal?

[374] I think that it's, I think that it's this.

[375] I think that.

[376] that it's no big deal in the way that like there's not issues with crosses on the lawn or something like that, you know, like that kind of thing.

[377] But I, and I, this is like interesting because I don't really know, um, is that I don't feel like I fit in anywhere.

[378] Like I didn't fit in the neighborhood.

[379] You know what I mean?

[380] Yeah.

[381] And like people didn't actively make me feel like I didn't fit in.

[382] I just was like, I don't look like any of you.

[383] I just don't feel like I fit in.

[384] You know what I mean?

[385] Right, right.

[386] Which by the way, I'm six to blonde and blue eyed.

[387] I felt like I didn't belong anywhere.

[388] So it's like, of course, you know what I'm saying?

[389] Like, I have to always remind myself of that when these topics of white privilege or anything else comes out.

[390] It's, I get it because I felt like an outcast.

[391] I think it's like a very human condition to feel like an outcast.

[392] Even when you were a bullseye of what should be fitting in.

[393] Totally.

[394] And maybe I was fitting in way more than other kids were.

[395] Certainly I was.

[396] And certainly you were, I'm sure.

[397] Yeah, but it's like also like where you are on your own head.

[398] Like, it's just like it doesn't.

[399] Yeah.

[400] Like you're a prisoner of that no matter what, you know?

[401] Yeah.

[402] Because it wasn't like, to me, it was not so much even like white privilege.

[403] Like I've never felt like any of that stuff.

[404] It's just like being like a like a mutt kind of is weird because you're just like, well, I just don't really like, like I fit it with my friends, you know?

[405] And I think that's probably how I found punk rock because it was like a bunch of people who were like, we just don't really fit it anywhere.

[406] So we all just like none of us looked like each other or whatever.

[407] And like so like it was like this like island of misfit toys kind of thing.

[408] That's what a try.

[409] I too was very similar.

[410] merged in the hardcore scene in Detroit in the early 90s.

[411] And, yeah, there was this weird, I get it all.

[412] I was like, okay, I don't feel like I look like that or I'm, that's working.

[413] So I'm going to send a very clear fuck you to the whole system.

[414] And I'm going to have white dreadlocks.

[415] By the way, I notice you and I, unfortunately, both redlocks.

[416] Which I absolutely love, probably my favorite hairdo ever because you didn't have to do a thing.

[417] You just woke up in your hair with style.

[418] Yeah, it was great.

[419] Yeah, it was great.

[420] But yeah, I found like it was a way for me to get some power back of going like, well, fuck you.

[421] I'm wearing size 48 pants and overalls and I have dreadlock.

[422] So I'm clearly telling you I don't even want to play your game.

[423] Totally.

[424] I'm not a part of it.

[425] But of course I did.

[426] I would love to have been Homecoming King or something.

[427] Yeah.

[428] But it was in my defense.

[429] And then, yeah, that group seemed to be or that scene seemed to be populated with people who felt similarly.

[430] Yeah.

[431] But I will say an evolution seemed to have happened around that time period, probably started by like EMAK and Discord and all.

[432] that where punk got kind of smart.

[433] Yes.

[434] So a lot of the kids were in the scene in the Detroit area were like going to U of them.

[435] They were mathematicians and band members were, you know, our nation of Ulysses.

[436] These guys were like dedicated to, you know, brilliance.

[437] Yes.

[438] And so that was also a very cool moment too.

[439] Also like being kind of, you know, anti -massaginy was big.

[440] It was thoughtful.

[441] Yes.

[442] Being vegan was a big movement.

[443] Like Krishna got big in Chicago randomly.

[444] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[445] But, like, it was all, it was all thoughtful.

[446] Shutter to think, no, no. Like, 108 and, uh, what was the big Christian band?

[447] Shelter.

[448] Yeah, shelter.

[449] Yeah, yeah.

[450] In the, um, crazy kick, there's like a great Krishna core book just for anyone listening.

[451] Oh, really?

[452] Yeah, the guy from 108 wrote, that's just crazy.

[453] In the, um, parenthood title sequence, you know, we had to supply them with photos of ourselves in our youth.

[454] And I don't have a bunch of them.

[455] But in the title sequence for parenthood, I'm wearing a shelter t -shirt.

[456] And like, like, once a year, I'll get a tweet from somebody going, like, are you wearing a shelter shirt?

[457] in that?

[458] Shelter merch is really wild because it stunningly looks really relevant today to like streetwear and all that stuff.

[459] Yes.

[460] It weirdly almost is like pre that terrible line affliction.

[461] Yeah.

[462] It's kind of crazy.

[463] But it's awesome because it's also very colorful and in fact my very favorite long sleeve t -shirt of all time was a shelter white.

[464] Yeah.

[465] Oh yeah.

[466] Totally man. Yeah.

[467] I was actually looking at it literally fell off my body.

[468] I was looking at those the other day.

[469] That's funny.

[470] Oh, I should kind of look into that.

[471] Maybe I could pick up some old shelter.

[472] Yeah, man. Shelter shirt.

[473] Alter gear.

[474] Yeah.

[475] That scene was really kind of fun to be a part of it at that time because I started going to shows with my brother who was five years older than me. And originally I think my first show was 12 and we went to see exploited.

[476] And that was fucking terrifying.

[477] Like I was going just to prove to my brother I was a man. We were seen Dead Kennedys and the scene was still half neo -Nazis and people wore combat boots with screws in the bottom so they could step on your foot, blah, blah, blah.

[478] And then it became really beautiful and peaceful.

[479] Yes.

[480] So I came in Chicago.

[481] I came like right or like me and my friends because we had to like kind of sneak downtown and go to the fireside bowl or whatever it was.

[482] And we came like right when because it was in Chicago as well.

[483] It was like neo -Nazis were literally beaten out of out of the scene.

[484] And people are like, oh yeah, they were like you put up flyers.

[485] I'm like no, no, no. They were like beaten with fists.

[486] Yeah, yeah.

[487] Out of like that's well there were sharps, right?

[488] Yeah.

[489] against racial prejudice.

[490] Yeah, and it was like, and they were, you know, but I came right after it and it was like, it was more thoughtful and it was, did you ever see sick of it all when you were?

[491] Totally.

[492] So I don't know what their audience was like in Chicago, but in Detroit, sick of it all was right down the middle.

[493] It was either, it was like half that new generation and then just half neo -Nazis.

[494] That was the worst show I ever saw where there was tons of fighting.

[495] Totally.

[496] Like I said, like I think I came right at the end of it and I wasn't going to like, like I would go to Sick of It All and stuff like that.

[497] But like, yeah, they were like pretty much.

[498] much gone, I think.

[499] Yeah, yeah.

[500] I don't know.

[501] No, I would have known.

[502] Do you remember being scared when you would go to those shows when you were little?

[503] Yes.

[504] I remember the mosh pit and like, what can I get in?

[505] Like, what, like, you know, and like, what ring of Dante's Inferno?

[506] Yeah, like, which level of mosh pit can I go into?

[507] And then, like, there's like the wall of death would have, like, all this stuff, you know, and, and.

[508] I'm going to dive off this stage.

[509] Yeah.

[510] And the Fireside Bowl was great because it, uh, it was this little bowling alley in Chicago and it had these pay phones that were like about, you know, 10 feet back from the stage.

[511] And the deal was you would climb up on the pay phone and then, and then like headwalk on the crowd to the, you know.

[512] So it's so stupid, but in such a weird, like, fight clubby, like, you know, like, we need this to like.

[513] And you could ride.

[514] And you could.

[515] It was very, yeah, Lord of the Rings.

[516] I'm sorry, Lord of the Fliesies.

[517] But you could ride on an experience like that for like 10 days.

[518] Like if you went to a show on a Friday night and you did crowd walk or whatever the fuck it's called All week the next week in school like I didn't care what jock was doing what I was like totally I'm crushing out they don't even know what's happening Yeah totally totally and my thing was crazy because I had like all these like pen pals and I like bought records based on like thanks lists and all this like I was like super deep on all of it.

[519] Yeah you collected records yeah all of it yeah yeah I never that never appealed to me the collecting the knowing every member of every band all that kind of stuff And I would start talking to someone.

[520] Then I'd get insecure.

[521] I was a poser because I didn't really know who the first.

[522] Yeah.

[523] I don't think of that matters.

[524] Yeah.

[525] But like I was just, I was fully into it.

[526] It was like my coming of age or whatever.

[527] Yeah.

[528] It was whatever.

[529] And when did you start playing music?

[530] I started playing when I was 15.

[531] I played bass because it had less strings.

[532] Sure.

[533] I'd taken piano growing up.

[534] Could you read music?

[535] I could read music on a piano, but it's just.

[536] different on a guitar or on a bass.

[537] I mean, I guess, yeah, it's just like transcribing is a little different.

[538] And then...

[539] Was there a bass player you were emulating that you loved?

[540] No, because I feel like I got into it in the way that, like, I got into it because of punk rock.

[541] And there was, like, nobody who I was like, I liked these, like, local guys.

[542] And then, like, I did like guys like Duff McCagan and stuff, you know, like, or whatever, like, you know, growing up.

[543] Yeah, did you have a neglectic spectrum of music?

[544] you were listening to?

[545] Yes.

[546] Or just punk?

[547] No, I listen to punk, but like my, like the way I got into it was like the first music I bought was the first CD I bought in like those long boxes was a Slayer Live CD, which was a decade of aggression, I think.

[548] And then, and I listen to like Metallica and stuff.

[549] And that was when you had to like order your shirts from like blue grape or something, like something like in a magazine where they would like have all these tiny shirts and you're like looking at them like, you know, whatever.

[550] And it was a Base solo take one, what is it?

[551] Is that on anesthesia?

[552] yeah, it's really good.

[553] Yeah, he's really.

[554] That's about the only vinyl I have is I do have all that early, all the early metallic.

[555] I have metal up your ass on vinyl.

[556] That's awesome.

[557] So like I was into him and I was into, but it was more so like the, did you like classic rock?

[558] Not at the time.

[559] You didn't.

[560] Later on, I was secretly listening to it.

[561] Oh, you were.

[562] Classic rock.

[563] What was your like go -to?

[564] Oh, I love Led Zev one.

[565] Okay.

[566] I love Roll.

[567] Rolling Stones.

[568] I also love Steely Dan.

[569] Like I always love Steely Dan, because my parents love Steely Dan.

[570] Steeley Dan is like one of my, what's it called when you just have like a blank, I have like a, they're just not, I never listen.

[571] So it's like a weird.

[572] They're an enigma to you.

[573] Yeah.

[574] It's like if you hadn't seen the Godfather or something, you're like, I know I'm supposed to like know everything about it, but I just know nothing.

[575] And still no Steely Dan for you.

[576] No, no, but not in a bad way.

[577] Just like I just don't.

[578] Oh my God.

[579] I'm almost jealous of you as if you've not seen Breaking Bad and you're going to get to start.

[580] Yeah.

[581] It's how I feel about like, People who haven't seen Game of Thrones.

[582] Like he gets his experience at all.

[583] Yes.

[584] And I feel like if you do ever open the door to Steely Dan, it will blow your mind.

[585] Okay.

[586] Just the, I mean, they were just incredible.

[587] Yeah.

[588] Musicians.

[589] And so weird.

[590] Every song is so different.

[591] And they were very like tongue in cheek and I don't know, whatever.

[592] Please check out Steely Dan.

[593] In fact, let's stop this right now.

[594] You go to your car listen to do.

[595] Come back.

[596] Deacon blues and then hit me with what you think.

[597] Good.

[598] But you played soccer.

[599] too as a kid, right?

[600] I did.

[601] And you were good at it.

[602] I was pretty good at it.

[603] That's like what I feel the most competent in my life about at the time.

[604] For sure.

[605] It was playing soccer and I played club teams and I. And so you must have felt included in that sense, right?

[606] You were on a team.

[607] So yeah.

[608] So like I was, so I was like the kid on the soccer team that had like, you know, blue hair who hung out with like the punk rock kids.

[609] Like I was kind of, I wasn't like popular or not popular.

[610] I was, like, friends with everybody, but I kind of think, like, in a weird way, a ghost because, like, all my friends were, like, these punk rock kids that went to, like, other schools and stuff.

[611] Right.

[612] But it wasn't, like, antagonistic.

[613] You know what I mean?

[614] Sure.

[615] Like, there was nothing.

[616] I feel like you could, like, read about my life and think it was, like, this weird, like, antagonist.

[617] Like, I think all the things that happened and all the, like, were beneficial for who I became, you know, like, yeah, I liked playing soccer a lot.

[618] And it's, like, it's, it's the thing in my life where I, it's like, so, this is so, this is so.

[619] messed up kind of.

[620] I won't do it now because I know I can't do it as well.

[621] So it's like I just don't even want to do it a little bit.

[622] That's me and a skateboard.

[623] Yeah.

[624] I just look at it.

[625] I know I would be crying.

[626] Yeah.

[627] And people are like, don't you just want to kick a little bit?

[628] I'm like, I have no interest.

[629] Yeah.

[630] Well, if my kids were into it, I would do it.

[631] I haven't played in second grade.

[632] So maybe we should start playing together because it would certainly be a lot better than I was when I quit playing.

[633] Totally.

[634] But even soccer is a little bit of a like fringe sport in a weird way, right?

[635] Yeah.

[636] That's where you would find dudes that were super athletic, but they weren't jocks in the traditional sense.

[637] Yeah, it's like a little more thoughtful.

[638] My school was weird because our football team was not very good.

[639] So a lot of people gravitated towards soccer.

[640] Oh, really?

[641] Yeah.

[642] And it's like interesting because of the neighborhood that we were in.

[643] Like your club team played the team that Walter Payton's son was on.

[644] And so it was like all this like, will Walter Payton be at the game?

[645] Like, you know, like, it was like kind of cool.

[646] When you started playing the base and you thought, okay, I'm going to do this.

[647] I'm going to, I'm going to be in a band.

[648] Did you at that time have like fantasies of stardom?

[649] No, because the stages that we were playing on were like literally like three inches, you know, or whatever.

[650] And lots of times on the floor, you know, like.

[651] And we had all these.

[652] It was like so ridiculous.

[653] So we had this band.

[654] So I had bands that I was in and they were all like, had.

[655] these like see of hate or like all the bad hardcore band names and uh and then we had this band this one called um full english breakfast and the deal with that band was the band was the band was so bad so because we would go and all these shows were in the suburbs were in like garages and you know like knights of columbus halls and whatever and we would go and the deal with full english breakfast was we would go to the guy who's throwing the show and be like hey we got this band can we just jump on the show or whatever and rope in it right and and the deal was you had to play an instrument that You didn't know how to play.

[656] And we played until we got kicked off.

[657] Wait, each show you played an instrument you didn't?

[658] Is this a challenge to each other?

[659] This is a challenge to the crowd.

[660] It was a little bit of, who's the comedian that?

[661] Yeah, Andy Coff.

[662] Yeah, it's a little anti -competment because it's like it just keeps going.

[663] And someone has to pull the plug because the plug will not get pulled.

[664] And then after a while, people knew that Pull English Breakfast did that and we changed the name to human head.

[665] And we would just do the same.

[666] It was like.

[667] Interesting.

[668] Who is spearheading that?

[669] Because that takes a lot of confidence.

[670] Yeah.

[671] Yeah, that would be, I would say that was not me. That was my buddy Isaac, Isaac, who did that.

[672] And was Isaac a fucking party.

[673] He always, like, knew that.

[674] Like, it was always that stuff.

[675] It was always, he always, like, knew all the, like.

[676] He almost out punked rock, punked rock.

[677] It's very, performance art. Yeah.

[678] Yeah, it was super performance art. But in the way that, like.

[679] And it never got physical.

[680] Never got, no, no, never.

[681] No, it never got physical.

[682] And it never, like, it wasn't even performance art because, like, there was no, there was, like, there was, like, 12 kids here.

[683] You know what I mean?

[684] Like, it was just like, you're like, you're like, This is just brutal Yeah Yeah It's a clear fuck you though To everyone Yeah I think so So you weren't really You didn't have Fantasies of grandeur During that period No You were just doing Because you thought it would be fun I thought it would be fun The internet was not a thing Right Really you know like There was like email lists Maybe or something The most famous Hardcore band Was like not a whole household name You know what I mean?

[685] My cousin was I lived with my cousin And his band which was current.

[686] Did you ever hear of current?

[687] Totally.

[688] And then they were Ottawa and then they were Gregor.

[689] They were the Rolling Stones in Detroit.

[690] Like I was certain they were famous worldwide.

[691] Totally.

[692] because you're playing in bands for five years before you're in Armagh, Angelis.

[693] Or however I say that.

[694] Angelus?

[695] Angelus.

[696] Yeah, it was actually like.

[697] And are you getting good at bass?

[698] I don't think so.

[699] I think fine.

[700] I think fine.

[701] But like not.

[702] You can keep time.

[703] Yeah, fine.

[704] You know, but I'm not taking lessons or, and like, it wasn't really about that.

[705] It was the spirit, I think.

[706] Yes.

[707] It was more about getting up there and performing probably, right?

[708] Totally.

[709] And are you writing, when do you start writing lyrics?

[710] Not until Armaged.

[711] Well, I think I was maybe doing them in some of the bands, but like not until Armangelis, I think.

[712] Because when I think maybe, I went to a place that maybe isn't the case, which is a lot of the dudes I knew who were really good musicians in high school, they sat in a room for hours and they, they.

[713] played that guitar.

[714] I don't know that people recognize what a lonely endeavor it is.

[715] And how much it caters to people that probably have some depression.

[716] Like it's a great place to go hide and get lost.

[717] Totally.

[718] Right.

[719] I think that's a pretty common thread through these kids who get great at instruments.

[720] Totally.

[721] And all and I know a lot of stories about people with guitar that are like immobilized from an injury, immobilized because they're taking care of their parent or whatever.

[722] Like there's a reason that they're like stationary for like hours and they just have.

[723] Like repetitive.

[724] But it also takes a certain like, well, I would, I'm just, again, I'm guessing, but it's relief in some way.

[725] So you're not participating in a whole lot of stuff to put that much time into it.

[726] Because I would play the drums.

[727] I played the drums.

[728] But after like 40 minutes, I would think like, oh, fuck, I want to go to get some coffee with my buddy Aaron.

[729] You know, like I want to get out and do shit.

[730] I didn't, I wasn't yet dark enough to really be in my room that long, I don't think.

[731] I know people who've gotten like, like I think John Mayer may have gotten like super good at guitar by kind of just hanging out in his room.

[732] And I know people who have and I also know people who are kind of like I did that and like now I'd do something else.

[733] You know, whatever, you know, who like just love it, but like they didn't become a guitarist because of it.

[734] Right.

[735] But it is interesting because there's a lot of times the attributes that lead to these gifts, be it guitar or any kind of virtual so musically or even.

[736] actors, right?

[737] It's really weird because the thing they did to get famous per se has not prepared them at all for being famous because it was really an introverts pursuit.

[738] Totally.

[739] And I think even to some degree a lot of actors, I think Jim Carrey spent hours in front of that mirror just like you would with a guitar.

[740] Totally.

[741] And now all of a sudden the result of that is like this super extroverted pursuit and you are not equipped for that.

[742] Oh, totally.

[743] And I notice this a lot, I've met a lot of actors that have become really successful.

[744] And you immediately through success occupied this kind of alpha role.

[745] Like you're the popular guy in high school.

[746] But so often these people weren't the popular guy in high school.

[747] So they're now, I recognize why so many artists end up feeling fraudulent or that they've occupied this space that they just weren't trained to do.

[748] They weren't the guy getting tons ass in high school.

[749] And now they're getting all these girlfriends.

[750] But then they're insecure in these relationships because that's not what.

[751] they did and it's just all kind of confusing totally and there's like not a nobody like hands you a handbook like yeah like this is the way to nor is anyone even being honest about the fact that like oh wow this i'm i occupied this space that i'm not super comfortable in because it kind of breaks the illusion totally you don't want to do that i mean i think that one of the benefits for us at least or like our as a band has been like it's never really been an easy because we're like pop and rock and like it doesn't really work in any of them.

[752] And every song that like has ever been successful for our, for us like along the way someone's like, this is not going to work.

[753] You know, like, so it's been, so there's never been a like this, like, there's never been a like sure thing.

[754] That's been helpful because you constantly still feel like you're on the outside.

[755] You know what I mean?

[756] Yeah, yeah.

[757] And so the good, that makes me think of the question I had, which is, um, were you trying to make music that you thought would work or were you trying to just make the music you wanted to hear or was it some some of it was in pursuit of success and some was just like oh this is a song I want to hear totally good question um so like when we when it first started going we were just we got this really disillusioned with like like the the scene of music we were in so we were just like let's just play something that's like like do stuff that's like irreverent and fun yeah more irreverent than than yeah because it got a little it got a little hoity toy yeah whatever and so it wasn't yeah little preach yeah during that whole period I remember 85 % of the conversations among the people in the scene was like who was it sellout like that was such a big thing and there was an you know like as if it had an actual definition and it's like so goofy yeah it's really funny yeah um yeah but it was all fun and then we put out this uh this record where we mean uh arma or fall out boy fall up yeah so like we we put out this album that we like literally had 10 songs and that was like the whole album or maybe it was 11 songs and we and that was it because that was the only ones we knew how to play and we recorded it at this studio in um Madison Wisconsin Smart Studio where they like recorded Nirvana and garbage and all this stuff oh wow but we had no money you know like and our parents weren't really supporting like they supported us but they were like not like shoveling money at us playing out a punk rock band you know all the time right right and so probably wisely yeah but I'm right I remember they would get every week at the studio, they'd get a case of Coke and a case of Sprite for us.

[758] And one day we were like, instead of getting like the case of Sprite, can we just get peanut butter and jelly?

[759] And they were like, sure, because we just didn't have any money.

[760] And we were sleeping on the floor or whatever.

[761] And so it becomes like, you know, like it's one of those things where you're like, well, I want to make music that I want to make.

[762] But at the same time, I know that I'm making art in a pop art venue.

[763] So that there's certain kind of.

[764] of rules or whatever, not rules, but there's, like, if you're going to do that, like, and a lot of people are going to listen to it.

[765] There's an architecture to it.

[766] Yes, you need to, like, kind of just think about that when you're making it.

[767] Even if you're writing movies, minimally, they have to have a beginning, middle and a lot of people trick themselves into thinking they don't need that, but they fucking need that.

[768] Totally.

[769] And you're like, there's the difference between, like, being like, I'm writing, like, or I'm making, like, a big movie or I'm making like an art house film, you know, like, a slice of life.

[770] Yeah, which is cool.

[771] You just got to, like, know what you're making and why you're making it.

[772] you know what people are going to respond to it's weird it's a little weird for a band I think and I think about this because I kind of get jealous of of actors but I don't know that this is a real thing or whatever is like we were talking about this on New Year's Eve okay you and I which one which thing which is we all want to be each other oh we want to be each other yeah yeah which we were talking jealous of me I'm jealous of music yeah totally yeah because everyone wants to be what they're not one thing I think of all the time is like I can't re -release without a paddle every weekend I will never profit from that again yeah you know what I'm saying But if I had written brown sugar, I can play that until I fucking die.

[773] Totally.

[774] Yeah.

[775] So I'm a little envious of that.

[776] So what it's interesting because I think my jealousy might be even like, it's not exact opposite, but it's like I can't go and make like an art house movie and then make like a, you know, tent pole movie because like every movie like, quote unquote, if we're calling like the things that I do movies, everyone has to be like a big one or people are like you fucked out.

[777] Yeah, you've screwed up.

[778] You know, like...

[779] Oh, you have to be so blatantly avant -garde.

[780] Like, you're getting together with Neil Perth.

[781] And we've done that stuff before, you know, like, where you're like, this is literally...

[782] And you're trying to send some pretty clear signals.

[783] Like, don't judge me by the old bar.

[784] But, yeah, that's the thing that I get jealous of.

[785] And also, like, you're less so with music, but with, like, acting, like, you're playing a character.

[786] And then you can, like, kind of, like, leave that character and go play a different character or whatever.

[787] Whereas with music, it's like, well, it's like a character named me that, like, looks like me. And you can change your hair, but it better stay kind of...

[788] Totally.

[789] In the ballpark.

[790] You know what I mean?

[791] Yeah.

[792] So...

[793] If it's short, it better be really short.

[794] Yeah.

[795] That was like the Metallica thing.

[796] Yeah.

[797] Totally.

[798] Yeah.

[799] Um, did you guys party?

[800] We weren't a big party in band.

[801] Um, we came...

[802] So I think that it was like two pronged was that we came from, um...

[803] We came from like the hardcore scene where, like, that wasn't like really the thing, like the, of the bands that we used to see.

[804] like they weren't big part of bands.

[805] Yeah, there was a ton of like straight edgy.

[806] Yeah, totally.

[807] And then, um, we also had grown up on like, we were like, I think the first generation of bands that grew up on like the behind the music and you saw like they were all, like there's none, none of them end well when you, you know what I mean, they're all like.

[808] Somebody say they don't make one unless you fucking shit the bed.

[809] And so we didn't.

[810] You know, like, you guys wouldn't actually talk about that.

[811] Like, hey, we got to, we got to kind of keep our shit together.

[812] No. No one was really.

[813] partier in the band like I think that I and we could I don't mean I don't know we don't need to jump ahead but like I ended up like self medicating myself because of anxiety and stuff but that was different it wasn't in a like party app it wasn't in a like let's rage we just weren't that like we just wasn't the band we were and we didn't even have to talk about it we were like these nerdy dorky guys yeah but okay so I was watching the behind the music of Ted Nugent I remember like 15 years because he wasn't I think he never as drank, right?

[814] And I'm like, that's so confusing.

[815] But then he says, in so many words, I was addicted to pussy.

[816] He's like, that was his how he partied.

[817] Right.

[818] He, that was morning till night.

[819] Right.

[820] He fucking adopted his second wife or something from Hawaii.

[821] Unbelievable.

[822] Right.

[823] There's got to be like some outlet to it all.

[824] So are you at least in, you guys are into girls?

[825] Not even.

[826] I mean, I think a little bit, but like not in a crazy, it didn't, like maybe we were addicted doing the band you know like maybe we were like just doing it all the time and flying you know like by the way that's awesome yeah saying that's great never saying you know no to shows and that kind of stuff yeah but it wasn't like yeah we just didn't because it did become like when I did start like prescribing myself stuff for like anxiety then it did get like weird and whatever but like at the time no it was just like we were just these like dudes in a van that would like quote movies to each other it was just like not that cool.

[827] You weren't there for the lifestyle.

[828] You were there for the music more, right?

[829] Well, I mean, the lifestyle just like wasn't a thing, really.

[830] It just wasn't like, I don't know.

[831] You have to cultivate it, I assume.

[832] But I could imagine being you and then all of a sudden being on tour and like being successful and go, wait, where's the party?

[833] Isn't this supposed to be some gigantic party?

[834] It just like, it like never, it never really was.

[835] Maybe that's like the like thing.

[836] That's pretty great though.

[837] Yeah.

[838] I mean, I feel like you guys are probably lucky.

[839] But you know what?

[840] Yeah.

[841] I mean, I think that so when we moved, so when I'm, so we did an album where we lived in the Oak Woods and I would literally, it's so sad.

[842] I would put a blanket over my head in my apartment at the Oak Woods and I'd be like, this is what it's going to be like when you're dead.

[843] Only you can't even think of this.

[844] You know what I mean?

[845] Like you have the blanket and it's just pure dark.

[846] But like you can't even.

[847] There's no. It's worse because you're not even going to be able to think this is what it's like.

[848] when you're dead.

[849] And it was like, that's how dark the oak wood and like that was.

[850] And so I got a house here.

[851] And when I got the house here, what here is this?

[852] I would say this is either 05 or 06.

[853] Okay.

[854] And when I got the house here, there was like parties because like we didn't go to college.

[855] You know, like we were like so this was like making up for that.

[856] And it was always like themed parties and my like neighbors hated me and like just all like, you know.

[857] But even at that point like the friends that I know you have at least that I'm aware of are like Seth Green, you're friends with him.

[858] Yeah.

[859] So the crew of people you're kind of surrounding yourselves with aren't the degenerate ones.

[860] No, it's pretty dorky.

[861] You know, it's all pretty dorky.

[862] You know, it's all pretty dorky.

[863] Yeah, fun and goofy.

[864] So in 2001, you formed follow -up boy, you guys, you and Andy and Joe and Patrick, right?

[865] And how quickly do you become super successful?

[866] Is it abrupt or is it gradual?

[867] No, it's super gradual.

[868] Like, we played so many shows where there was, like, five kids.

[869] The other bands were there.

[870] We didn't get paid.

[871] We got paid in pizza.

[872] Like, you know, like, it was, you there was a place in Bakersfield.

[873] I think Jerry's pizza.

[874] I can't remember.

[875] But we got paid in pizza.

[876] And, like, we just played shows.

[877] And, like, we would, the internet wasn't what it is now.

[878] So we would sometimes show up at shows.

[879] And they were like, the show is canceled.

[880] And we're like, oh, awesome.

[881] Like, you know, like, you can't even find that out.

[882] Uh -huh.

[883] And then when it, so then what happened was we, we, we started to get bigger with kids, like with kids.

[884] So like in like, you know, dorm rooms or whatever, like file sharing, honestly, like MP3, this website that doesn't exist anymore, MP3 .com, Napster.

[885] And so we were like this band that was like, every one of our shows started to be like shut down by like the fire marshal and stuff, you know, whatever.

[886] Like where they were like riots Were you playing colleges and stuff?

[887] We were playing like Knights of Columbuses and like wherever Like wherever we could play But like it was and I think it would be like a kin to like give somebody It's akin to like what's going on with Lil Uzi or like some of these hip hop guys right now Where it's just every show was like well we didn't finish our set most of the time Because it was like fire marshal or we get shut down or like a near riot like we Oh wow It was um this store Hollister used to um so it was big big big it was big to do in stores like at the time and so this store Hollister which was like kind of like the surf version of Abercrombiege I don't know if it still exists yeah I bet you did I really loved it spent a lot of money they would do in they would let us play in stores and a lot of those in stores there was a zillion rules like you can't go here you can't whatever yeah but the Hollister they were like play and so we would have people get on literal surfboards on top of the crowd I had a friend who like got on board put on board shorts And it was just like in a mall And it was just and it was It was literal mayhem.

[888] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[889] And it was interesting because at the same time Like your average Joe Radio guy Label mom and dad have no idea who we are.

[890] Yeah, you know what I mean?

[891] So it's like this like weird thing Where you're like in between and that's kind of what Was the tipping point that like turned it into the mainstream Because like we weren't we wouldn't get played on the radio otherwise because the songs were not radio songs, yeah, or whatever.

[892] So then when it did happen, it happened fast, like it went zero to 60 then.

[893] You know what I mean?

[894] Like it was a long buildup, but then like when it happened, it happened.

[895] Well, I similarly was auditioning for nine years, got nothing, then got punked.

[896] And then it was overnight.

[897] But they kept saying overnight, but I was like, well, but it's not overnight because I've been doing this.

[898] And you have to tell people this all the time.

[899] But in fact, it was over.

[900] Yeah.

[901] When it did happen, it was totally overnight.

[902] But it feels weird when people say like overnight and you're like, well, I had like a zillion years of like really sad like Denny's moment.

[903] You know, like it's just not.

[904] People just see you appear and they're like, oh, where do they come from?

[905] They're brand new.

[906] They must have just, yeah.

[907] Overnight mainstream success, I guess.

[908] Yeah.

[909] And then I think there's also just for a lot of us on some level in our brain we go, well, this isn't.

[910] Because as much as I fought the overnight thing, it is true that within a year of punked I had bought my first house, which we still currently live in.

[911] My van girlfriend and I were like laying on the floor in front of the fireplace like the first night we ever slept there.

[912] And I was looking around and I was like, this doesn't feel right.

[913] This is not how it works.

[914] Like where I'm from in Michigan, I would have had to build my way up to this house with four other houses.

[915] This is bizarre.

[916] Right.

[917] And it did feel incongruent with what I thought was supposed to happen.

[918] Totally.

[919] I think that, no, and I would think that at times.

[920] And there was like times when the thing that to me that's weird because I like really do think of myself as the.

[921] as like the, you know, like the 14, 15 year old kid or whatever.

[922] But like the times like when like the perspectives are like forced together for some reason like where you're out and you, you know, like there's things that like force all of it.

[923] Yeah.

[924] And it's weird, right?

[925] Because you're like all of a sudden standing there and you're like, well, this person, you know, like I have kids that come up to me and they're like, you know, Andy Hurley is the reason I play drums.

[926] And I'm like, Andy Hurley, like the like shitty kid I meant.

[927] No one.

[928] You know, but then I'm like, oh my God.

[929] Like this kid like sits in his room and like pretends to be in.

[930] Andy Hurl, you know, like, and it's just a weird thing that forces your perspective.

[931] It is very weird.

[932] And then I don't know if you've done this, but there was a moment where, like, five Academy Awards ago, I had been in a comedy troupe for years and we could not get 50 people to come to the shows, right?

[933] And in this comedy crew, it was myself, Melissa McCarthy, Ben Falcone, Nat Faxon, Octavia Spencer, Tate Taylor.

[934] And there was an actual Academy Awards where the help was nominated that Tate had directed.

[935] Melissa was nominated for bridesmaids.

[936] Octavia Spencer was nominated for the help.

[937] And Nat Faxson was nominated for writing the descendants.

[938] And it was this two -layered thing where one, I was like, this is mind -blowing.

[939] We were on this comedy crew and no one would come see us.

[940] And then the excitement immediately gave way to, oh, so all these people I've been revering and worshiping are just human beings and they're normal guys.

[941] And maybe it took the whole thing down a notch for me. Yeah.

[942] So when you hear a kid say to you that they started playing drums because as you say, your dipshit buddy from high school, doesn't it kind of put everything in perspective a little bit?

[943] Like, wow.

[944] So I guess John Bonham was also a dipshit in high school.

[945] You know what I'm saying?

[946] Yeah, totally.

[947] Well, yeah.

[948] Because I mean, and it's like I think about it.

[949] And it like does it somewhat.

[950] But then I watch like, so I watch that Spielberg movie and I'm like, wow.

[951] This guy did like if, If I think of like I did like 1 % of like the stuff like he's done that like over and like to keep making cold like to keep touching and making cold or to keep like the superhuman.

[952] Yeah.

[953] I agree with you that there is definitely a strata of geniuses.

[954] And I'm not saying I'm like I'm less impressed now with Francis Ford Coppola for doing Godfather.

[955] But there's a huge spectrum of people that you are falling in the middle of.

[956] And for some kid, you are fucking the Metallica.

[957] a good base place.

[958] I can't get there in my head.

[959] Yeah, but it's true.

[960] But do you think ever, because like there's the like, the Coppola Lucas, what was their class?

[961] Like, you know what I mean?

[962] Like, I'm like, wow.

[963] It's like, is there like other versions of that, you know, like, are there other versions of it?

[964] And it just hasn't like gone on long enough or like blockbusters had become like, you know, like.

[965] Well, we're sitting in a neighborhood, right?

[966] That was built by one director, Cecil B. DeMille, where he owned this whole area.

[967] And he owned the park.

[968] Right, too or something?

[969] Yeah, I mean, you just can't imagine being bigger.

[970] I think even in, or even take someone like Bert Reynolds.

[971] Bert Reynolds was the biggest box office star eight out of ten years in a row.

[972] That will never ever happen again.

[973] So there were things that, yeah, people did get bigger.

[974] Totally.

[975] Unrelated, but my favorite biography is Titan.

[976] It's about John D. Rockefeller.

[977] Okay.

[978] And one way to think of him is the first man to ever make a billion dollars.

[979] And if you, if you equate a billion dollars from 1915 to now, it really means he was worth like 20 billion dollars.

[980] But that's not an accurate way to think of his wealth.

[981] Really, you have to think about what the entire amount of wealth in America was at that time.

[982] And he basically had about 20 % of all known wealth.

[983] So now if you would compare that, that someone has trillions of dollars.

[984] You know what I'm saying?

[985] It's insane.

[986] Yeah, it's not like a direct proportion up to, by the way, Monica, you're going to have your hands full with that statement.

[987] I know.

[988] Monica listens to what I say and then she corrects me after the podcast.

[989] So I'm sure I just spouted a ton of shit.

[990] That's inaccurate.

[991] But yeah, I do think sometimes there are people that will never be, you'll never have again.

[992] You won't have Spielberg again, I don't think.

[993] But I don't know.

[994] I don't know.

[995] I just think there's time.

[996] That just, we'll never know until we have enough time.

[997] Well, they'll never be a TV show like Roseanne or Cosby because there was three networks.

[998] Yes, times change.

[999] 38 million people a week were watching it.

[1000] And that just won't happen again.

[1001] Totally.

[1002] Which is probably healthy.

[1003] But genius level, I mean.

[1004] Not in the actual way we consume.

[1005] Right.

[1006] And those types of things.

[1007] Yeah, because like get out or whatever.

[1008] Like there's these things.

[1009] But like, but but are we allowing like people to like incubate enough because you can like broadcast all the time?

[1010] I don't know.

[1011] Like it's just.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] I mean like if we had played our first like and not to put whatever, but if we had played our first show in front of the internet or in front of whatever.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] It'd be bad.

[1016] You know what I mean?

[1017] Because like we didn't figure it out.

[1018] You know what I mean?

[1019] So like, well, that's one thing I wanted to talk to you about because we both, even though we're in such different occupations, there are parallels, right?

[1020] So there will be times where I'll be lamenting about how much the film business has changed, how much television's changed, and how I missed the golden era, right?

[1021] And then on another day I go, well, no, but I did get to experience a lot better version of it.

[1022] So really I should just be grateful that I did.

[1023] You know, when I was in without a paddle, that year, I think Paramount had released 12 movies.

[1024] Well, last year, they released four.

[1025] And at that same time, every studio was releasing 15 movies.

[1026] So they were making, you know, a couple hundred movies through all these studios.

[1027] Well, now there's less studios.

[1028] They make a third of what they used to make.

[1029] So in a way, I'm lucky as a motherfucker.

[1030] So you, I would imagine, at times have to lament, had you been the same exact band, Fall Out Boy, in the 80s, you probably would have sold 40 million albums.

[1031] Totally.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] What have you guys sold?

[1034] You know, all day?

[1035] Like all in.

[1036] Maybe 20 million.

[1037] That's fucking amazing.

[1038] I would not have thought it was that high.

[1039] Even though I recognize you guys are hugely successful.

[1040] But I don't know.

[1041] So yeah.

[1042] So you would have sold a hundred million.

[1043] Yeah, maybe.

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] And you at times go like, God, this.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] Yeah, sometimes I do.

[1048] But I think of it in the way that like I'm like, well, music as all arts.

[1049] Like so like there was a point when music was basically a guy going door to door selling sheet music, you know, door to door.

[1050] Okay.

[1051] And then, like, you know, when records came out, that guy was like, music's over.

[1052] Like, we're never going to, you know, whatever.

[1053] And like, or, you know, I think about it with rock music all the time because, you know, I was reading, I can't remember whose book it is.

[1054] But, you know, there was a time when like sousaphone music, susophone music, like marching bands.

[1055] Like, they were like, this is the biggest music.

[1056] And now we know, like, one guy.

[1057] Well, yeah, there's a really also deep tradition, right, all along the Mississippi where jazz was traveling from Chicago down to New Orleans.

[1058] because those bands were so popular and they'd be on the river boats and totally and now it's but and now it's like relegated to you know and it's like I think it just keeps moving forward for us or for for me it's a little weird because we like straddle kind of like two eras like there was an era where we you know I got all the plaques and yeah you got multi platinum album yeah people were on the jets and you know like I saw the tail end of that yeah but then like the internet like our band wouldn't be what we were with without the internet and and so like it it's both and it's really interesting because now like on our new record there was this like group of guys in Lagos in in in Nigeria and and who I really like their music there's this guy Mr. Easy and it's got Burnaboy and it's like a whole scene and I like talk to this guy Burn a boy on WhatsApp and it's great because like I talked to him and he's like he's like man you better not be fuck with me I brought Fallout Boy to I brought Fallout Boy to Nigeria in 2011 like all this like dope I was like whoa this is amazing yeah but like we couldn't have done that you know and then he like we worked together you know like you couldn't yeah access yeah you wouldn't yeah you would there's no way to do that for the art I think it's gotten probably pretty cool really better yeah yeah I mean I worry about like with and I you can maybe answer this I think about this all the time is that like does a movie like how do you get a movie like like E .T made now no you can't you can't no yeah I mean the only hope currently is that Netflix is said they're going to make 80 movies and spend $3 billion.

[1059] If in fact that happens, that will be amazing because they are committed to making the movies that used to get made.

[1060] Because there's this whole section of movies now that don't get made, these $40 million dramas.

[1061] Even I got really sad this Christmas I was watching Home Alone with my daughter and it's such a great movie.

[1062] And everyone saw it in a movie theater.

[1063] You couldn't have seen it at home.

[1064] And you had that shared experience and I got like heartbroken that A, they don't really even make those movies.

[1065] There's not stars like that that can drive those movies.

[1066] And then no one even goes to the movie theater.

[1067] And I was like, God, that is heartbreaking to me. But again, it'll be replaced by something that my kids will have the same level of fondness for.

[1068] And I have to constantly remind myself of that because I'll get depressed about all that.

[1069] Yeah, like my kid, my older kid doesn't, he's always like, well, what was the Wi -Fi like when you were little?

[1070] Like, I'll stop like, and it's just because there's no, you know, I mean?

[1071] Like, and so interesting Because, you know, like, I'll talk to other friends that are like more my age and they're like, I wish there was like more tangible stuff and like record stores.

[1072] And I'm like, they just don't.

[1073] They never had that.

[1074] So they don't care.

[1075] Yeah.

[1076] Well, even the thing I tripped out on is that on a cell phone currently still when you hit the send button, it is a picture of an old phone.

[1077] And I was thinking that to them that graphic doesn't even make sense.

[1078] No. That doesn't even, there's, for them, there's no reason it's shaped.

[1079] My kid picks up a house phone.

[1080] I'm picking up my cell phone and he looks into it.

[1081] Like he's FaceTiming.

[1082] Like, it just doesn't, where you can't hear what they're saying.

[1083] It's just a different thing.

[1084] So as I understand it, because I don't know a ton about the music industry, but as I understand it, what replaced record sales is touring.

[1085] That's where now bands generate most of their money.

[1086] Is that accurate?

[1087] Yes.

[1088] I think that if you had to give a percentage of how much revenues is generated by the tour versus your sales, what is that percentage?

[1089] I think, and I'm not like not a good numbers guy, but I think it would be tours and merchandise.

[1090] would be like 60 or 70.

[1091] Uh -huh.

[1092] Maybe it's 60 because like there's also like brands obviously want to be involved in music.

[1093] Well, you're, and you're licensing your music obviously.

[1094] And syncs and stuff like that.

[1095] We're a band that still we get streamed and we sell albums.

[1096] So yeah.

[1097] It's like a mix.

[1098] Because you have a lot of old fucking fans.

[1099] Yeah, it's a mix.

[1100] It's really weird.

[1101] So it's like a mix and we have to appeal to like a casual fan.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] And like a kid who's just like, I really only want a hero on a playlist.

[1104] Well, and again, you would know this way better than I, but there, yeah, there's a couple genres of music where that genre base didn't evolve the way.

[1105] So, so country, I think, still sells albums.

[1106] They sell albums, they sell CDs, they sell physical albums.

[1107] Yeah.

[1108] They do.

[1109] They sell CDs.

[1110] Yeah.

[1111] Yeah, which is kind of cool.

[1112] Yeah, it's crazy.

[1113] Yeah.

[1114] I mean, so let me ask you this.

[1115] Eventually, you guys do become quite large and you enter the zeitgeist.

[1116] And I'm aware of you, even though I'm not even listening to that type of music anymore.

[1117] And how do you, how do, how do, how do, how do four guys in their 20s share that experience?

[1118] I, I, I, I, I just imagine myself in that moment having to share my acting success with three other people.

[1119] And in my 20s, I could not have done it.

[1120] It's wild, man. It's wild on every level.

[1121] I'm surprised no one to really ask that question.

[1122] It's wild because it's wild for a couple reasons.

[1123] So it's wild because like in the negative way where that immediately anytime you get any kind of success in entertainment, all of a sudden there's all these people around who are like, well, like make this thing with me, you know, like or whatever.

[1124] But they're saying it to like four different people.

[1125] So they're like saying it like you don't need him to do it.

[1126] Like you do, you know, whatever.

[1127] And that was happening.

[1128] That was happening for sure.

[1129] Also through no effort of y 'alls, some people are just popping.

[1130] Yes.

[1131] Which is just the nature of like an ensemble TV show.

[1132] Yes.

[1133] Some people are just whatever.

[1134] Yes.

[1135] They pop.

[1136] And you're one of the people, right?

[1137] Yes.

[1138] You kind of were inordinately popular for being the bass player.

[1139] Yes, absolutely.

[1140] And is it because you're so cute?

[1141] I have no idea.

[1142] I'll fact check that.

[1143] Fact check that.

[1144] You got to go out and ask like 15 women.

[1145] But yeah, and it's a little weird.

[1146] But at the same time, like Patrick and me like make one good rock star together because he like doesn't want to do any of the stuff.

[1147] He doesn't.

[1148] No, he like doesn't.

[1149] Meaning like all the promotion.

[1150] Yeah, he doesn't want to do any of it.

[1151] No. And he doesn't want to talk.

[1152] Is he just so self -assured and confident he doesn't need that approval and attention?

[1153] I think it's like an introverted thing.

[1154] Okay.

[1155] He's just not comfortable.

[1156] Yeah, he didn't want to do it.

[1157] And now it's like evened out a little bit more.

[1158] But at the time it was like, he was like, you can be like my avatar for that.

[1159] Okay, great.

[1160] So initially he was supportive of that.

[1161] I think he was.

[1162] If you're willing to do it, fucking please.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] I don't think he ever really.

[1165] He never minded that you.

[1166] There's probably some weird.

[1167] There's some shit where like you're like, in an interview and you're like just stop asking these questions and ask you know like stop asking about this guy's personal life or something you know like oh well you you know I'm sure you've had the situation and I've had it a ton when you go on a talk show with a couple other members of the movie they're going to put someone right next to the talk show host yes and that's basically they're telling you who's the most popular in that group so you're and they go out I remember when we were promoting without a paddle I sat on the third every single time it was like it was Seth Green and then Lillard and then me and by the end of a four week promotional tour I was so insecure about the fact that I was on the fucking, you know, it's sidelines.

[1168] But then it, yeah, you're on lettermen or you're on these things and you're still.

[1169] Absolutely.

[1170] It just never goes away.

[1171] And you tell yourself, I tell, I told myself, oh, if I ever got that level of attention, that would be enough, but it's never, ever, ever enough.

[1172] It's never enough.

[1173] It's kind of liberating to know that.

[1174] It's never enough.

[1175] It's a black hole.

[1176] And I wanted to talk to you.

[1177] You can't fill it.

[1178] But maybe in a little bit.

[1179] But yeah, had you read Sid Arthur when you were a kid?

[1180] Like, do you have to read it for a school?

[1181] Is that way?

[1182] What is that?

[1183] Is that the...

[1184] It's the Herman Hess book about Buddha.

[1185] Yes, probably.

[1186] But yeah, it's Buddhist, right?

[1187] Yes.

[1188] And ultimately, his realization, the way he finds all of his answers is through gluttony.

[1189] He, like, lives as a monk for a long time, then he does this.

[1190] And then he moves to the city and he becomes wildly famous and, not famous, but successful and rich and fat.

[1191] Yeah.

[1192] And it's weirdly through that experience that he found his way to his truth.

[1193] Right.

[1194] And I do think if you have the same hangups and insecurities that I have, it's so fortunate to have the access to recognize, oh, wow, that, okay, so that's not.

[1195] Because I think I would have died believing that that level of approval and attention would have made me feel good.

[1196] And I would have been chasing it forever.

[1197] It's not real.

[1198] You can't feel it.

[1199] You can't feel it.

[1200] You know what I mean?

[1201] No. You never internalize it.

[1202] It doesn't make you feel better about yourself.

[1203] Yeah.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] Yeah, because I thought about it before.

[1206] I'm like, if you have a Grammy, if you have this amount, none of it.

[1207] It just doesn't.

[1208] Yes.

[1209] Because anytime you get it, you're like, well, that's fine, but let's not, you know, and it's like, I don't need the next thing.

[1210] Well, I'm going to go over straight to that then.

[1211] So for me, that moment was crystal clear.

[1212] I had tried to get sober a bunch of times.

[1213] I could manage getting sober while I worked for the most part.

[1214] I think for without a paddle, I was sober up until the last two weeks.

[1215] Right.

[1216] And then I was sober for idiocry.

[1217] And then I was, I went on vacation.

[1218] this was my last week of drinking, 2004, September 1st is when I quit.

[1219] But I went on this vacation because I was about to start this movie as a thorough.

[1220] And I had just finished doing a movie that Mike Judge directed.

[1221] And I was about to do a movie that John Favre was directing.

[1222] And I got so annihilated this whole week in Hawaii.

[1223] And I smoked crystal meth.

[1224] And I did coke.

[1225] And I got in a car accident.

[1226] And I was so physically sick by the time I got on the plane to go back home.

[1227] And I had a layover in San Francisco.

[1228] and I was sitting at a bar because I could not get on the next flight unless I had like six more drinks.

[1229] I was just physically dying and I'm in the corner of this bar and I'm so nervous that someone from AA is going to see me at the airport drinking.

[1230] And the way I've got myself in the corner of this bar, it's a mirror next to me and I just feel as bad as I've ever felt in my life.

[1231] And I go, holy shit, I'm doing the thing I've been trying to do for 10 years.

[1232] I'm acting in movies I have money I have more money than I thought I was ever going to have These are all the things I told myself My whole life if I had I'd feel good and I'd feel happy And I felt the worst I've ever felt And it was the scariest moment in my life And that was finally the time I was like something's severely broken And I have to confront it and fix it Because I can't I really had believed If I had Jim Carrey's career I would love my myself.

[1233] I would feel great about myself.

[1234] I would be happy.

[1235] And it's very scary yet very liberating to recognize, oh, Jesus, those things don't make you feel different.

[1236] Totally.

[1237] You know?

[1238] And you had a similar experience, didn't you?

[1239] Yeah.

[1240] Around the same time.

[1241] Yeah.

[1242] I mean, I think that, so my stuff was, um, I had crazy, I think that when the band was on the precipice of getting big in the mainstream, because we were big with kids or whatever that created all this kind of anxiety in me you know I couldn't fly I couldn't do anything and so like I started just taking uh like benzos like just kind of like Xanax and it was prescribed to me at first and by the way I tried all this other stuff too I did like hypnotherapy and all this other stuff that like laid under the blanket all you know like all this stuff and it just didn't none of it did anything you know and so I kind of like self -medicated and all that stuff and for me um my thing like my own personal and i guess everybody's thing is completely different or whatever but like when i had my kid my older kid full time i was like oh my god this is like a little human being that like i'm in charge of and i need and it was like my moment where i was like you have to like get your shit together because like you can't like make yeah it's time to You can't, like, be dead.

[1243] You can't, you know, like, it's like you can't.

[1244] That's not like an option.

[1245] You know what I mean?

[1246] And so that's like, to me, if without that, I wouldn't have like been able to.

[1247] Although a lot of people, because I've watched a million people try to get sober.

[1248] A lot of people do tell themselves that when they have that kid, that's going to be the thing that's going to shift them away from that.

[1249] And I've seen more times than not.

[1250] That actually adds to the issue.

[1251] Right.

[1252] Because now there's even more stress, more fear, more pressure.

[1253] And you even need more in a. from these fears.

[1254] Yeah.

[1255] So the band had taken time off.

[1256] We were taking like a hiatus.

[1257] And it's weird because it's like kind of like, you know, every day you get up and you're like, this is who I am.

[1258] So it's like the band and like it feels your identity.

[1259] It's my identity.

[1260] And like that's removed from you.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] That's terrifying.

[1263] And I'm living in New York.

[1264] I end up getting, I end up, we end up, I end up breaking up my first wife.

[1265] and so like I was at the lowest it could have been but I had this like two year old guy that was like with me and I didn't have like an Annie of my parents don't live out here like it was just like we just hung out it was like a buddy thing you know I mean we would go to like a Sandler movie yeah we would exactly we would go to like travel town and we'd go to you know like and it was really and it was like one of those things were also like and I think I might I was probably projecting this but I would be having like little Yoda moments with him where I'm like you're teaching me so much about myself yeah yeah I'm like I'm probably what you know like you probably you know like just a kid who just says stuff you know whatever but like for me it was all you know and I think that yeah I mean for me that's what it was for me it was like a it couldn't have gotten like my life couldn't have gotten any lower like it was like I was never how do you recall how many what were you taking Xanax or at a van Zanax and how many were you taking a day a lot of people don't know this about Benzos they're like and this is weirdly the big kind of secret that's going on in this opiate epidemic it's it's sure the opiates are an issue but most times people are mixing an opiate and a benzo it's gonna be so many people are addicted to benzos and it's really not public knowledge it's gonna be a really big problem for this generation it is and it's one of the hardest ones to detox from yeah i've seen friends in a coma with their heart rate at 180 because they're detoxing and they're in a coma so so that's a gnarly one to be on a lot yes uh i was So they come as, you know, footballs or they come as the bar.

[1266] And I would take, I could take like a half a bar or three -fourths of a bar.

[1267] Uh -huh.

[1268] What do you think at that time was the source of all this anxiety?

[1269] Do you think just biochemically you're predisposed to anxiety?

[1270] But I think that there's.

[1271] I don't think so because I don't, if it is, it's not discussed.

[1272] Or whatever.

[1273] Yeah.

[1274] But I also think that.

[1275] like, you know, whatever you want to call it, like entertainment, start them, like all that stuff.

[1276] Like that doesn't help it that like enhances it.

[1277] Right.

[1278] I think that like being in a successful thing in a weird way is, you know, because I see it with like, you know, Bieber, whoever it is like where you're like people just, they don't want you to get better.

[1279] They want your like head above water.

[1280] You know what I mean?

[1281] You don't need to be like, because cured is in a lot of times a problem.

[1282] You know what I mean?

[1283] Absolutely.

[1284] You know, because then.

[1285] And you can tell yourself, I certainly did, I was nervous that if I wasn't fucked up and wasn't working double time to make up for the fact that I was fucked up that I actually wouldn't be funny or wouldn't be creative or whatever I did come to think of it as like oh this is part of the whole process totally and my thing was like yeah like writing lyrics whatever like if you're not like a bummed out guy like what about people like you or whatever yeah and then like it's like for me it was really this kid because I was just like you just got to like but did you get help aside from that not really well I mean I talked to therapists okay I did talk to therapist but a lot of times I would think I would either omit or I thought it was like bullshit and there was some that were really helpful and I had friends that were really helpful but no I didn't like it was literally you were just trying to figure it out on your own yeah and it was like and from a mental place it's probably not the most objective totally but I think also like I was like well you don't have a band you basically hang out by yourself with a kid like this is the time where you can like just figure it out you know what I mean because like and I also think that like the one of the things that actually helped it a lot was I had atrophied like the thing that people don't really talk about is like you atrophy basic adult things when you're like in like in your band or whatever like I didn't know how to get through an airport I was like I follow a backpack through the airport oh right right yeah totally and you're like I don't go to the store I don't go to other people.

[1286] totally yeah you know and in some ways it was like helpful when you have too much stuff because you're like don't want to micromanage all this stupid stuff but you know like I was at the point where I was like you should just do all this stuff like you don't need you don't need to help doing it and I think that like in taking that back it like probably helped I also think that like when you're like it can't get any worse sometimes like that's for me it was helpful because I was like no like there's nowhere else to go really you know I mean there's no like yeah you know know like there's no yeah when I've quit and even if I'm quitting like cigarettes which I had done a million times there is some comfort in going today's miserable uh but this is the most miserable so tomorrow will be like marginally less miserable and then so on and so on hopefully I also never had like um shaking like I never had the like if I don't do this I'm gonna you didn't have to get well as they say no you could function with yeah and mine was like did you replace this with anything else?

[1287] Are you on anything that's good now that helps you?

[1288] Like I work out and I get like, I'm the kind of person that gets really, um, into something.

[1289] I think we might talk about this.

[1290] I get really into something for like three months like where I'm like, I got to know everything about this thing.

[1291] And then like, people ask me about it year later.

[1292] I'm like, what are you talking about?

[1293] I don't, you know, like.

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] But, um, and so I think I did some, some of that.

[1296] Um, but yeah, I mean, like, more so I think, um, because I do like talk to people about it.

[1297] And I know it's like different kind of like, because I think it's just different kind of like, because I think it's just different for everybody how you figure yourself out and how you navigate.

[1298] Kind of like.

[1299] Well, also again, based on two, what you're, that's why I'm saying.

[1300] So like Kristen, who's very, very open, which I applaud about being, having depression.

[1301] And she's on an SSRI inhibitor, right?

[1302] And that's a biochemical thing, right?

[1303] It's not that she had trauma so much in her childhood.

[1304] Mine's kind of, I believe, who knows, a lot of trauma induced.

[1305] I was molested.

[1306] Right.

[1307] you're molested, you have an 80 % chance of being an addict.

[1308] So that seems like that ship sailed probably early.

[1309] And so your own personal struggles, do you think, are that, are there, are biochemical or maybe derived from trauma or?

[1310] No, I think biochemical.

[1311] And is there shame in that?

[1312] For Kristen, there's, there was shame.

[1313] And then she kind of owned it and now there's like a lot of strength in it.

[1314] I think that there was like maybe, you know, 10 years ago, it was like, Like you don't really like talk about this kind of stuff publicly, you know, but everybody or a lot of people kind of deal with all of it.

[1315] So like that's what's weird about it is you don't talk about it.

[1316] So there's like a stigma to it and like a maybe I don't know if it's from like being in a band or being a guy or whatever.

[1317] Like there's like a weakness thing to it probably or whatever.

[1318] Well remember even the Sopranos like Tony Soprano had to keep it very private.

[1319] Yeah, totally.

[1320] He went to therapy.

[1321] Totally.

[1322] So I mean.

[1323] But to me, I find it far more inspirational.

[1324] Like, I find it far more inspirational that Jim Carrey maybe is wrestling with a ton of shit.

[1325] And it's not easy for him.

[1326] It's humanizing.

[1327] It is.

[1328] And it makes me feel like, okay, great.

[1329] We're all kind of, you know, this is, this is challenging for all of us, just being a human on planet Earth.

[1330] So I don't feel so like, well, fuck, Jim Carrey just wakes up and he's, he's super prolific and funny and all these things.

[1331] And why aren't I that way?

[1332] I just find it way more comforting to know that Pete Wince struggles like everyone else.

[1333] And I also think it's how it's helpful.

[1334] helpful to know that like you're not going to get a promotion that's going to fix everything.

[1335] No. You're not going to hit hit a goal of making X amount of money and that's going to fix anything.

[1336] And if you can share that and I can share that, I think you can go like, oh, well, maybe I need to be focusing on maybe like for you and I have very similar experience.

[1337] You have Bronx.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] And you recognize there's not enough time in this day for me to be thinking about all my problems all day long and get him ready in eating and change and all that stuff right this is just you can't do it so you're either gonna totally neglect this kid or you're gonna get out of your own head totally and I'm like I don't want you like in therapy for whatever me not being here yeah you know like whatever you ever like to think I like to think because of course I think I'm doing a great job as a parent I certainly am giving it a lot more time and say my dad was able to do right and then I like to play the game of like well they will be in therapy anyways yes But what are the specific things?

[1340] Yeah, I do that all the time.

[1341] The one I love talking about is somehow Kristen had done some work for like Bill Clinton's foundation or whatever it was.

[1342] The point is when Lincoln was born, we get this letter in the mail.

[1343] It is a letter from Bill Clinton welcoming Lincoln to planet Earth.

[1344] And I'm like, this is so bizarre.

[1345] And it's framed in our house as you would do.

[1346] Bill Clinton writes your daughter a letter.

[1347] And I was thinking she will be in therapy at some time going like, I mean, Bill Clinton wrote a fucking letter.

[1348] Totally.

[1349] like welcome me. I mean, what was I supposed to do?

[1350] Totally.

[1351] I'm just trying to think of all the things that'll come out of that.

[1352] Like, yeah.

[1353] Yeah.

[1354] I think about, yeah, I think about all those.

[1355] It's like, and it's all pretty scary.

[1356] Because now like at nine, it's so much more, it's so much less like black and white.

[1357] Like this is wrong and this is right.

[1358] It's so much more like emotional parenting and like letting kids fail.

[1359] And like I just watched.

[1360] I don't know.

[1361] I'm not going to give spoilers because I just watched this black mirror archangel.

[1362] I watched it last night.

[1363] Yeah.

[1364] It's just like.

[1365] Oh yeah.

[1366] Watching it, and you're like, well, this is all a mess, you know?

[1367] Yes.

[1368] In a nutshell, the episode is about someone can get an implant in their child so that they can track them and also see what they're seeing.

[1369] And then, of course, the parent becomes obsessed with everything they're seeing and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[1370] Yeah.

[1371] It's insane.

[1372] Yeah.

[1373] It was a very loose metaphor for helicopter parenting.

[1374] Yes.

[1375] Probably, right?

[1376] Totally.

[1377] So you guys, you, Fall Out Boy took a big break.

[1378] Was that?

[1379] Well, before I even asked that, do you guys all share ownership of everything?

[1380] Yes.

[1381] You do?

[1382] Yes.

[1383] So we do.

[1384] That seems generous from some of the members, I have to assume.

[1385] Yeah, I mean, but I think it...

[1386] Did you write the lyrics?

[1387] Yes.

[1388] All them or some of them?

[1389] All of them.

[1390] And then Patrick writes all, almost all the music.

[1391] Okay.

[1392] So Andy and Joe are just on the free ride.

[1393] They're on the gravy train.

[1394] No, Joe definitely started writing music.

[1395] Okay.

[1396] And then Andy is just like the easiest guy to ever be in a band with.

[1397] He's just like, give me the plane ticket, give me the check.

[1398] And I like hanging out with you guys.

[1399] That's kind of the drummer way.

[1400] though.

[1401] It's a long tradition.

[1402] It's like pretty, you know, um, although except police, I hear every time that police try to get back together, Stuart Copeland and, uh, and Sting fight nonstop, like from the second.

[1403] Yeah, I can imagine that.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] Yeah.

[1406] Um, but we'd heard that, you know, like that you two split it evenly.

[1407] And it just seemed like it was like one of those ones because we were, dude, when we started, we were just like these guys in a van.

[1408] You don't actually think in that moment that I'm going to be giving up.

[1409] At the end of the day, a ton of money.

[1410] Right.

[1411] Right.

[1412] And it ended up being...

[1413] Certainly easier for the band when it's that way.

[1414] Yeah, it ended up being super helpful for the band, super healthy for the band.

[1415] And the thing that I didn't say really, get to say, was that when you're, the other thing about doing it with, like, three other guys is that you're, like, shielded when you're doing anything because you're like, there's these other three guys going through it with me and we can all, like, I don't want to answer this.

[1416] This guy answers this.

[1417] This guy does the solo, this guy.

[1418] You know, like, and it's like in a weird way.

[1419] like that aspect of it is pretty awesome because you're like there's three other people that basically have the same life experience of me almost to a T with the exception of like 7 % for the last you know 12 years like it's like being on like a submarine with your siblings that like never stops you know I mean yeah yeah yeah so like you like want to like kill each other and I imagine too you have to cherish if you're like me at all you have to cherish the fact that This is the group of guys that knew you before you were Pete Wentz.

[1420] There's, like, such value to that, isn't there?

[1421] Oh, yes.

[1422] And hopefully, and I think is the case, is that we all treat each other like when we met each other.

[1423] Right.

[1424] You know what I mean?

[1425] Which, with the exception of, I think that, you know, when we did take some time off three years off, we, like, did a reboot, which was, like, really awesome because.

[1426] But there wasn't, was there a big fight or was it just, you know what?

[1427] A lot of fights.

[1428] There was a lot of little fights.

[1429] Okay.

[1430] And a lot of, like, talking through managers and.

[1431] Oh, right, right.

[1432] You know, and people are burnt and like, I think Joe wanted to write a bunch more, which he went off and did.

[1433] And like, because he, like, when we started, he was younger than us.

[1434] And then he, and then he became like a writer and a prolific, you know, like a thoughtful, you know, or whatever.

[1435] And like, there wasn't the space to do that.

[1436] And so, like, he wanted the space to do that.

[1437] And Patrick wanted to do his own thing.

[1438] And, yeah, it was.

[1439] When he did his solo stuff and you heard it, where you're like, oh, shit, we've been sleeping a little bit on Joe.

[1440] I thought, like, I was like, oh, I did.

[1441] Yeah, I was like, I didn't know that this guy.

[1442] could play guitar like that.

[1443] Oh, that's cool.

[1444] Which was cool.

[1445] Yeah.

[1446] And it was cool to also see because like when you go up and do your own things, it's like they're completely different because like it's just there's not being filtered.

[1447] Yeah, you guys have a share, you have a collective personality as fallout boy, right?

[1448] Totally.

[1449] But then you obviously all have such dramatically different.

[1450] Totally.

[1451] Although it does sound like you're all introverts from what I've gathered.

[1452] Yeah.

[1453] And we're all like dorky and we can all like kind of agree on certain things.

[1454] But yeah.

[1455] So like when when we took the time off and then when we came back, it was like because when you start we started doing a band we were like we weren't kids but we're like basically kids um and then like you stay like like it's like it's like you're frozen in time yeah yeah yeah i mean my best friend from when i was 12 erin weekly who's still my best friend the second we're together i am 12 years yeah so you're frozen in time yeah you know it's so but all but all these things have like but for us it's weird because it's like you're it's the person you work with every day and you're like you're like but i'm a grown up and then and they're like they're Like, you're the guy that I met with.

[1456] And you can't.

[1457] And so, like, when we got to do the hard, like, kind of reboot, like, it was like, oh, everybody's got kids, everybody, like, you saw each other more.

[1458] And was it, it, was it motivated out of finances originally?

[1459] Or was it motivated out of, like, wildlife was more fun doing that as much as I thought it was a drag?

[1460] Yeah.

[1461] I mean, I think that when, so Patrick wrote this kind of like open letter blog about kind of of how bummed he was, you know, whatever.

[1462] And I read it and I was like, oh, this is, you know, like, I don't want this guy to feel like this, you know, or whatever.

[1463] And we started talking and like it had to be, to me, it needed to be, and to all of us, I think it needed to be motivated for new, by new music.

[1464] Like to go back and be like a legacy act is whatever.

[1465] And you know what?

[1466] I think we would have waited if it was like just to be a legacy.

[1467] Oh, right, right.

[1468] You know what I mean?

[1469] If it was just purely financial, I think we would have waited because it was there was time still.

[1470] So like it was about like new music and stuff that would be kind of like exciting.

[1471] And you come together and you go, I think we do still have some more creativity left in us.

[1472] Yes.

[1473] Yeah, absolutely.

[1474] And how long was that?

[1475] That was a four year break?

[1476] Yeah, three or four years.

[1477] And as you said, your identity is at that point had been 10 years of being this thing.

[1478] How fucked up were you in those four years?

[1479] Did you feel rudderless or were you scared?

[1480] Super fucked up when it started.

[1481] Like I was like, I don't know what to do.

[1482] I have no idea at all.

[1483] You know what I mean?

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] I would also imagine leading up to the breakup, you're like, I don't need any of these guys.

[1486] Yeah, all that.

[1487] You're like, oh, shit, I really kind of needed those guys.

[1488] No, totally.

[1489] And I think that at the time also there was like all these other shifts that were happening.

[1490] So like EDM became this like all music was, pop music was.

[1491] So like there was all these shifts that were happening.

[1492] The internet was like a super big thing then.

[1493] And yeah.

[1494] And then, and then, you know, like, towards the end of the break or the time off, I was like, I like kind of like just being a dad.

[1495] Like, I don't really want to go back to like getting, you didn't have lobby calls.

[1496] But did you have financial fears at that point?

[1497] Because I wonder if it's because your dad made a good living and I grew up broke.

[1498] I like the thing.

[1499] I'm so obsessed.

[1500] I'm so fearful.

[1501] I'm so fearful.

[1502] Oh, I'm obsessed with it too.

[1503] Oh, you know.

[1504] That makes me feel better.

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] But, no, and I was going to say this earlier because when we were talking about the humanizing thing was that I'll, I'll, I'll, Throw this in there is that I remember watching, I think it was, or like somebody was talking about it, like Will Smith on Oprah.

[1507] And he's talking about how he's like worried about money and it's just like, wow, wow, that guy's worried about money.

[1508] And I'm like, I probably will always be worried about it.

[1509] That's right.

[1510] Yeah, there isn't a number that's going to fix that.

[1511] But were you like doing the math daily?

[1512] Like, okay, I got this much.

[1513] I'm 30.

[1514] I don't know.

[1515] Old were you, 31?

[1516] 33, 32.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] So conservatively, you have 50 more years left.

[1519] Yeah, but I think I was like I'll just You had a clothing line and stuff Yeah, but other But I was kind of like, well, I can like Live at this spot in the valley Or like I kept like thinking like I could probably Yeah Rather than do like I was like I don't really Because I think I'd like figure myself out And I'd gotten happy Which is like happiness is like I don't really know how to explain this to myself 10 years ago.

[1520] Happiness is better than all of it So like I was happy I would like Contentment is so I would go to like Travel Town and like, I was like, this is like really fun.

[1521] I really like myself.

[1522] Travel Town, by the way, in L .A. is a train museum and they have a miniature train that you can ride around with your kid.

[1523] It's so fun.

[1524] And I, and I was like, I like myself and.

[1525] Or you were getting self -esteem.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] And I'm confident about like, like, I was like, I feel really good being a dad.

[1528] And I really, like, I like this.

[1529] Yeah.

[1530] And I don't, and if I go back to doing the band, will I be gone all the time?

[1531] Will I be feeling the anxiety?

[1532] Well, look, I was like, I don't really want to do that again.

[1533] Right.

[1534] You know what I mean?

[1535] Like when I've, like, figured it out for myself.

[1536] Yeah.

[1537] So that was worth more than all of the other stuff to me. Right.

[1538] But then, like, Patrick was bummed and, you know, like, we got together.

[1539] And it was magic.

[1540] Like, the first time we, like, played together.

[1541] Uh -huh.

[1542] It was like, for some reason, for whatever it is, like, that band, like, who we are as four people was bigger than the four people.

[1543] Yeah, yeah.

[1544] And I don't know why it is.

[1545] You guys have rhythm and I don't mean the...

[1546] Yeah, totally.

[1547] And you can't put, like, I don't know why, really, but it just, you're greater than the sum of your parts.

[1548] can't even think about it.

[1549] I constantly tell myself, I'm never even going, well, personally, I believe I'm going to die and that's it, lights out.

[1550] Right.

[1551] I'm not going to be able to evaluate my legacy or what people think of me or any of that shit.

[1552] I will not be here to witness this.

[1553] No. And it really helped me go like, none of it fucking matters.

[1554] But can you imagine torpedoing it and then having like 30 more years like where you can, you know, like, because like my thing is kind of like, oh.

[1555] But that's just safety through not trying.

[1556] Yeah.

[1557] You know, so like that's an Accomplishment, like doing nothing is not as big of an accomplishment is even destroying the band would be weird.

[1558] No, totally.

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] And so.

[1561] But I get it.

[1562] I imagine the fear.

[1563] Yeah.

[1564] And.

[1565] And.

[1566] And.

[1567] And.

[1568] But it just worked.

[1569] But like, it could be like a cult.

[1570] And are you guys bigger than ever?

[1571] Like you play stadiums.

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] So it's bigger than.

[1574] Yeah.

[1575] So it's bigger and it's more broad.

[1576] And it's also just different because 10 years.

[1577] Also like four years time off is really like 10 years with the way the internet is now.

[1578] You're talking about like someone has gone all the way through high school.

[1579] So you missed that window of that.

[1580] Totally.

[1581] A whole generation of people really.

[1582] Micro generation.

[1583] It's broader than ever and it's bigger.

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] And it's bigger than ever.

[1586] But I'm like a crazy person like you were just talking about where I'm like every single show, I'm like, this is the one where they're not coming to it.

[1587] You know what?

[1588] Literally every single one.

[1589] And then when we play, it's great.

[1590] Like when we're on stage, it's great and whatever.

[1591] But before.

[1592] I don't want it to.

[1593] happen, but at the same time, I very much want to see your face when you walk out to an arena.

[1594] Oh, yeah.

[1595] It's just you guys in the janitorial staph.

[1596] Oh, dude.

[1597] I mean, can we talk?

[1598] Some guy holding the tray of many hot dogs that'll go on sold.

[1599] I mean, that's what I picture.

[1600] Do you have nightmares about that kind of thing?

[1601] Mine are all like super stressy like you've, like I've, I've killed somebody and nobody knows or I have a recurring dream where I have buried a body.

[1602] Years ago, I've gotten away with it.

[1603] And there is a construction project now on this island where I built it.

[1604] And my whole dream is about getting that body back.

[1605] It's insane.

[1606] I think that's secrets.

[1607] Yeah, it's got to be.

[1608] But I also think that because I also have like lots of ones about my kids and them getting sick or they get shot in the dream.

[1609] Sure.

[1610] It's all stress dreams.

[1611] I have a zillion stress dreams.

[1612] Before you go, I want to ask you one question about relationships because you've had a bunch.

[1613] I've had a bunch.

[1614] And it made me think of it because of knowing those guys and them knowing you and the value that I personally put on that.

[1615] So I was with a girl for nine years, Bree.

[1616] And one of the things that I was heartbroken by and scared of is everything post -Bree, someone was going to have potentially been aware of me before they met me. And they wouldn't have seen the one -bedroom apartment for 10 years.

[1617] and they didn't see the like going to groundlings and running theaters and no one came.

[1618] And I felt like it was, I don't know why.

[1619] I just felt like that was so important that that person had done all that with me. And it was so sad to me that whoever I did this with again wasn't in a weird way going to know the real me. Or that was my fear of it.

[1620] So when you got divorced, first of all, were you, was there shame about getting divorced?

[1621] Did you feel like, oh, this is a failure and everyone knows?

[1622] I think so.

[1623] Yeah, definitely.

[1624] Yeah.

[1625] I mean, in the way that like, yeah, I mean, in the way that like no one plant, you like, well, I, like, my parents weren't, you know what I mean?

[1626] Like, I didn't grow up.

[1627] Like, divorce was not like, was not a like heavy, like, I didn't know about a lot of divorces.

[1628] You know what I mean?

[1629] It wasn't like I didn't come from a divorced household.

[1630] Right.

[1631] So in that way, yeah, for sure.

[1632] Yeah.

[1633] And I think in like the celebrity way where like people like talk about it and like theorize and like everyone, you know, and you're just kind of like, well, it's none of that stuff.

[1634] Yeah.

[1635] And you're just kind of like, well, it's none of that stuff.

[1636] But whatever, it is what it is.

[1637] Yeah, yeah.

[1638] And then you're caught in a weird position where you don't actually want to tell everyone your business, yet you want to correct that it's not that business.

[1639] So you kind of want to go, well, that's not true, but I'm not going to tell you what is it.

[1640] Yeah, totally.

[1641] But do you find that you're, because you're kind of a serial monogamous, right?

[1642] You had like long -term high school girlfriend and then you were married and then now you and Megan have been together a long time, right?

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] How long?

[1645] Eight years, seven years?

[1646] Yeah, that's a long time.

[1647] Do these relationships have a pattern, do you think?

[1648] Or do you think you broke a pattern with Megan or?

[1649] Um, I think I broke a pattern in the way that like, I'm a different person.

[1650] You know, like, I think that the things that I think about.

[1651] You move quick, though.

[1652] Can we say that?

[1653] You fucking move quick.

[1654] Because if I recall you're a Megan story, you guys meant she moved in, right?

[1655] Yeah.

[1656] She, like, moved from Ohio to California.

[1657] Well, she didn't, yeah, because she didn't have anywhere to go.

[1658] So it was like stay here.

[1659] But it was all.

[1660] You guys hooked up and she never left.

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] Yeah.

[1663] Um, but, but, did you always move that fast?

[1664] No. No, okay.

[1665] No, but like, it was always like monogamous, you know, you don't have commitment issues.

[1666] No, it seems.

[1667] No, and it was not like a, like, uh, yeah.

[1668] I mean, I think that like with this, I think that you, or at least with me, like, one of the things with like having it all be so public or like, like, you.

[1669] Like maybe it's that you, you know, like, you know, like figuring it out and trying to be like a good guy for a kid.

[1670] You're like, well, what are the things that I did?

[1671] Like, what are the things that are like for sure my, you know, like my issues?

[1672] Yes, yes.

[1673] Versus what are like some shared issues and which are not my issues, you know?

[1674] And like trying to like not.

[1675] Well, don't you think after your like resentment dissipates when you get out of a relationship, like the first bit of it, you're like, oh, they did this, this, this.

[1676] And then over time, that has less impact.

[1677] And you start going like, oh, I guess I kind of, I wasn't there and I didn't show up.

[1678] Yeah, and you're like, I can, like, I had.

[1679] And then the rest of your life is just your mistakes you made.

[1680] Totally.

[1681] Yeah.

[1682] And so, like, I think in that way, I feel like I'm in a better, like, I'm a better partner.

[1683] Did you make some proactive decisions?

[1684] Like, okay, I've got another shot at this again.

[1685] And I cannot let myself do this again.

[1686] Yeah, there were certain, like, I think there's like certain.

[1687] Yeah, obviously.

[1688] I think there's certain things that I was like, well, you should be, like, you got, like, whether you're in a band and you're going.

[1689] gone or whatever.

[1690] Like you got to be like, you know, like engaged.

[1691] You're going to be dialed in.

[1692] Yeah, totally.

[1693] Yeah.

[1694] Well, with Kristen, I like, first of all, she was kind of opposite of what I always dated my whole life.

[1695] Right.

[1696] When we first met, she was very Christian and I was scared to raise kids with someone who was going to want to go to church all the time and all these weird things.

[1697] I had all these fears about her.

[1698] But I just kept kind of plodding along because I was like, at the end of the day, she's a super good person.

[1699] And she's really funny and fun to be wrong.

[1700] But I remember having to say to myself all the time, like, don't try to defeat this person in this argument.

[1701] Stop trying to make this person a clone of your thoughts.

[1702] You know what I'm saying?

[1703] Like I think in the past, I felt like if the girl didn't agree with me, then she must not like me. So I've got to really convince this person to think the way I think.

[1704] Or why would she want to be with me?

[1705] Like, how can she be opposed to everything, I think, and still love me?

[1706] me which ironically now my wife is opposed to every single thought I have and yet it's somehow working because you need some but I had to decide but I had to decide like don't do this there was a voice in my head going you got to break this fucking pattern right you're in I mean I think that one of the issues for me is that like I was probably like when everybody tells you like how awesome your band is and you are and stuff like that you know like that was one of the biggest maybe it's not like really an addiction but like that was like feeding every like I'm like I'm like I couldn't possibly be you know screwing this all up and at the same time you're like I'm basically like a man boy like I haven't really like addressed anything about myself at all you know I mean and I think that like in having it all explode at the same time it like just puts it all out in the light you know I mean because it's like the divorce and then the um the band And all of it happened at the same time.

[1707] So it's kind of just like, you just have to deal with it because there's no other, there's no other way to like, you know what I mean?

[1708] Like, because it's like there's, it's beyond like rock bottom.

[1709] You know what I mean?

[1710] Yes.

[1711] And while it's happening though, don't you, because I haven't had that kind of like big public breakup.

[1712] But in those moments, I'm assuming, you think the rest of your life people are going to be talking about it.

[1713] Yeah.

[1714] I mean, I think that anytime, but I'm sure you can relate in this way that anytime you have anything that goes wrong, like when at first.

[1715] like when you're a public thing like when it first happens you're like oh my god like this is gonna go on forever and then you're kind of like you realize and you're like how much worse gonna get and then you're like oh it like doesn't go on forever and people forget they don't care something more exciting happens an hour later I mean my experience my most recent experience with that is that so they did this Ghostbusters reboot or whatever and Patrick loves the Ghostbusters we all love the Ghostbusters he'd like really love Ghostbusters and they were like do you guys want to do the theme song we're like we'll do it We would love to do it.

[1716] Patrick, like, loves it.

[1717] And we're going to do with Missy Elliott and all the stuff.

[1718] And we were like this, you know, like we were, you know, like, comparatively like to the movie.

[1719] Like, we were just this small part of it, you know, but like the tide and everything that was, you know, so the furor.

[1720] Like, so like we felt it.

[1721] You know what I mean?

[1722] And I was like, oh, wow.

[1723] This is like, people like really don't like anything about this, you know?

[1724] Yes.

[1725] But and then, and they were like.

[1726] How dare they put women in those roles?

[1727] No, like all of it, you know, whatever.

[1728] I was like, oh my God, you know, and, and...

[1729] How dare they put the three best female comedians on the planet in this movie?

[1730] Yeah, but they were like, we've invited you guys to the premiere and in my head, I'm like, oh, man, we're going to go and like get booed and they're going to throw stuff and like all stuff.

[1731] And we went to the premiere and everyone's like psyched.

[1732] You know what I mean?

[1733] Like it's all Ghostbusters fans.

[1734] They're like psyched and they're like, we love the song.

[1735] We love the movie.

[1736] I was like, oh, it's just so funny how, you know, like, just a weird time to be.

[1737] You've done a few songs.

[1738] for movies, right?

[1739] How many, three, four?

[1740] We've done, so we did that.

[1741] We did this song, Immortals, which is for Big Hero 6.

[1742] And then we've written for movies that have not happened before also, which is an interesting process.

[1743] What is the pressure like knowing that you're not just going to go write a song you want to hear?

[1744] It's got to fit within this already existing thing.

[1745] Is it stressful as hell to write those songs?

[1746] Well, so the first time we wrote, I'll just give you the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the bridge version.

[1747] So the first, yeah, it is.

[1748] The first time we wrote, it was like in 2004, 2005, uh, for Shrek, they had, uh, tempt in, oh, man, they'd tempt in, what did they temp in?

[1749] Like, it was like, not Beatles.

[1750] It was, I don't remember what it was.

[1751] They'd tempt in a song and maybe it was Stones.

[1752] And, you know, we met, we met with like, Kathenberg and like, oh, you know, like, whatever.

[1753] And, like, they're like, you know, this is the song that's tempted in.

[1754] And we saw the, like, rendering and it looked weird.

[1755] and like the song was cool or whatever.

[1756] And then we go back to the studio and we're like, well, they asked us for that.

[1757] Right.

[1758] But they don't know that that's what they want.

[1759] We should give them what we think.

[1760] Okay.

[1761] Yeah, right.

[1762] And you can imagine how well that went.

[1763] Yeah.

[1764] Like they ended up using like the Stone song because they're like, you know, whatever.

[1765] Yeah.

[1766] So then when we wrote for Disney Big Hero 6 and that was like a really cool process because you were there before the temp.

[1767] Yeah.

[1768] And we were involved and they were like, this is what like, you know, we're thinking.

[1769] And that was really cool to be part of the process like that.

[1770] But at the same time, you're writing for somebody else's thing.

[1771] And I don't know your process as a band, but I can't imagine you guys ever said, let's write a song that feels inspirational for the first half, then takes a dark turn and then ends triumphantly.

[1772] That's not how you write songs, right?

[1773] Or like we're going to have a bridge where they can like introduce characters.

[1774] But in this situation, you very much have to deliver what that moment in the movie needs to have.

[1775] Yes.

[1776] God, I'm scared of that.

[1777] But it's like when you write for a show, it's the same thing.

[1778] Like, you're there to deliver something specific, not to like bring your own.

[1779] Yes.

[1780] You got to write an episode of friends.

[1781] It's really hard.

[1782] In my 20s, I couldn't figure that out.

[1783] I didn't know how to like be on board for that or like be like, well, that fucking ideas.

[1784] You know, like I couldn't, I couldn't swallow it.

[1785] You know, I got to have to imagine there's tons of critique and notes when you do a song like that.

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] And, like, the thing that I, and, you know, like, I'll probably be blowing myself up for saying that.

[1788] The thing that I've noticed is with, like, vice president executives, like, in Hollywood, they have, like, all these fucking notes just to have notes.

[1789] And I'm like, I love a good note, like a great note, you know, even if it's like something that's a critique, I'm like, damn, like, that's a great note.

[1790] But a note for a note's sake drives me fucking crazy.

[1791] I'm like, I didn't start a band for, like, some guy who doesn't even give a shit who just feels like he has.

[1792] justify his job to give me a note.

[1793] Yeah, so that is absolutely epidemic in Hollywood where you have a president, you have all these VPs, and then you have lower executives and creative executives, right?

[1794] And yes, they have to justify their job by having a thought on something.

[1795] So even if you have written a Beatles song, there will be notes from those people because they can't just not say anything.

[1796] But you know, like a hack I discovered during chips, which was I said to them, hey, How about this?

[1797] How about I go ask three really well -known writers that you guys love to read this script and let them give me notes.

[1798] And I will take those notes.

[1799] And they go great.

[1800] And I have to say, maybe they would have been the same notes.

[1801] But just knowing that these writers were just fellow writers that were really just telling me flaws in my story or flaws in my emotional development and the third act, they didn't give a fuck if the movie made money.

[1802] They didn't care if it was 90 minutes or 120 minutes.

[1803] Knowing that their motivation was literally motivated by.

[1804] story.

[1805] I wonder if there's a scenario which you guys could have received input from other musicians that have already made really successful songs for movies or vice versa.

[1806] And has that ever happened?

[1807] Did they ever bring in the composer and go, here, talk to the composer because he's got his finger on the pulse of what this is.

[1808] We did talk to him on Big Hero 6 and it was super helpful and he was like, listen.

[1809] And you probably trusted him.

[1810] Yeah.

[1811] And he was like, you know, this is what the score is doing.

[1812] You know, whatever.

[1813] You know, and it's like, yeah that's great that's awesome uh we the song that we did for that was going to be for shrek we did uh with butch walker who's the super musician like one of my favorite people one of my favorite producers and we just weren't listening you know i mean we just like knew better and like and maybe he had a fear too huh i'm sure when you're afraid you almost have to draw a line in the sand when you're scared like oh i got to stick to this i mean like success is also like this funny drug where you're like, oh, everything I do like works, you know?

[1814] And then like when it doesn't, you're like, hmm, you know, like.

[1815] Well, yeah.

[1816] And there's a lot of famous examples.

[1817] Yeah.

[1818] I mean, and that's a, we all do better with a bit of oversight.

[1819] Oh, yeah.

[1820] In general.

[1821] Oh, 100%.

[1822] Like M. Knight Shyamalan.

[1823] He does six cents.

[1824] It's such a perfect movie that I think from that point on, he was like, well, I don't need to listen to anyone ever again.

[1825] That's my own armchair.

[1826] Oh, there's a danger in it.

[1827] Like, and that's one of the things that I love about, one of the things I love about being in a band is like you're constantly bouncing ideas and I'm constantly getting people telling me like that idea sucks you know but like we're in the thing so it's like a lot easier you know like it's like a real writer's room because it's like we're all in it we're all invested no one's saying it because they're justifying their thing like it's they think it sucks for the betterment of the whole group yeah yeah yeah yeah individual but it is hard to hear that oh it's the worst it's like it's the worst or like you know like I've had like multiple times where people were just like, you know, like, okay, with our new record, we, our record was supposed to come out September 15th.

[1828] We pushed it to January 19th.

[1829] And honestly, when we got to like the deadline of like, like, where this is what we need to turn in in order to have it come out on September 15th, I like to talk to Patrick and it was like, this record is just mediocre.

[1830] It's like not good enough.

[1831] And that's like a rough conversation to have with each other.

[1832] It's a rough conversation to have with yourself.

[1833] And like we kind of had it publicly too, where we were like, we're pushing the record back three months.

[1834] Right.

[1835] But like it just.

[1836] Did he agree with you or?

[1837] Yeah.

[1838] Well, that's good.

[1839] But like it's just one of those things.

[1840] And it comes out January 19th?

[1841] January 19th.

[1842] But like, what's the album called?

[1843] Mania.

[1844] Mania.

[1845] January 19th.

[1846] Well, this is very timely.

[1847] Yeah.

[1848] But like the whole thing is, uh, is that like, you know, like I can't imagine turning to like my kids and being like, well, I'm going to be gone for like six months on this record that I think is like kind of good.

[1849] You know what I mean?

[1850] Like it's like, that's rough.

[1851] Yeah.

[1852] has to be worth it.

[1853] Yeah.

[1854] Yeah.

[1855] And in my own experience, just making movies is I just have to make the movie I want to see because God knows if it's going to make money.

[1856] God knows if critics are going to like it.

[1857] There's all these variables I have zero control over.

[1858] And so at the end of the day, I better walk away with something that I wanted to see really bad, you know?

[1859] Totally.

[1860] And I have to imagine an album's like that too.

[1861] It's like you're so upriver from whether or not it's going to be well received or people buy it.

[1862] And the beauty of like, and I think this might be different than a film, I'm not sure, but like the beauty of the album is it's like a snapshot of a time.

[1863] You know what I mean?

[1864] Like, and it becomes different 10 years later and if you put out another album it's like a companion piece or not, it's a departure or whatever, you know, like they're all just snapshots.

[1865] You know, like and yeah, you live and die by, like, if you're a pop artist, you live and die by like your last successful thing.

[1866] Yeah.

[1867] But I think that you're like next successful thing is only, you know, like, whatever, like, you know, like a great song or whatever, like, is, is, is, is, is it, you know, is, is, is the thing itself, you know what I mean?

[1868] Like, so you can, like, have, like, three albums that don't make any sense.

[1869] And then you have one where, like, it just lines.

[1870] You can always get it back.

[1871] Yeah.

[1872] I look at, like, Maroon 5 or Ferrell or whatever.

[1873] Like, you, it's just, like, a great song away.

[1874] Right.

[1875] Yeah.

[1876] And, uh, luckily for you as a musician, the expenditure, although it's a lot of, you, I'm sure it's you can kind of keep swinging you can keep swinging you get a lot of at bats you get a lot of at bats but you don't get a lot of at bats with like if you're on a major label you don't get a lot of if you have a lot of strikeouts the one or two strikeouts you don't get a lot of a bat's with people supporting you right you know like then you're swinging on your own you know I mean yeah so you leave tomorrow morning to Berlin tomorrow morning to Berlin and I'm very grateful that you took time out of your last few hours before you take off.

[1877] I've really enjoyed coming to know you over at the Hansons, and I'm glad I got to know you in that capacity where you were just this nice human being with kids who clearly loved his kids, and I could relate.

[1878] Yeah, same.

[1879] Thanks for having me, dude.

[1880] Stay tuned if you'd like to hear my good friend and producer Monica Padman point out the many errors in the podcast you just heard.

[1881] We've all been there.

[1882] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, and fevers and strange rashes.

[1883] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[1884] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[1885] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[1886] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[1887] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[1888] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[1889] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[1890] Hi, Monica.

[1891] Welcome to the fact -checking portion of Pete Wittance.

[1892] How are you?

[1893] Great.

[1894] Great.

[1895] Did you find a lot of stuff?

[1896] Yeah.

[1897] Okay.

[1898] Yeah, there was a lot of stuff.

[1899] this took me a long this episode took me like four days to get through really why i hope it doesn't take the average listener that long yeah it was tough okay so it was a struggle okay i'm glad you're here and got through it didn't end your own life because of it yeah you're welcome um okay so you guys discuss a documentary about the oak woods apartments very good documentary yeah we high We highly recommend it.

[1900] Yes.

[1901] And it's called the Hollywood Complex.

[1902] Okay.

[1903] Which we did not say or you did not say.

[1904] And you said it was on Netflix and it's not on Netflix.

[1905] Anymore?

[1906] Any more.

[1907] Maybe never.

[1908] I don't know.

[1909] Well, those things come on and off.

[1910] They license them for periods of time.

[1911] It was at one point on Netflix.

[1912] That's where I saw it.

[1913] Well, that might be true.

[1914] Okay.

[1915] But it couldn't be true today.

[1916] No, it's definitely not true today.

[1917] but you can find it on YouTube for purchase.

[1918] Oh.

[1919] Amazon video.

[1920] iTunes.

[1921] I should have said iTunes first because we like iTunes here.

[1922] Well, that and I think that's where people would go first.

[1923] And Google Play.

[1924] Google Play.

[1925] Mm -hmm.

[1926] Anyway.

[1927] So everyone should check that out.

[1928] It's a very good documentary.

[1929] I looked into Pete's bar a little bit.

[1930] Uh -huh.

[1931] You dug around.

[1932] I didn't know.

[1933] I didn't know that he had one.

[1934] So that was interesting.

[1935] So Angels and Kings.

[1936] Right.

[1937] New York City first opened in 2007.

[1938] That's when he was talking about.

[1939] Did he mention or am I remembering reading that Tommy Hillfigure was at the opening of it?

[1940] Did he mention that?

[1941] No. Oh, that's on the Internet.

[1942] Oh.

[1943] Quite an esteemed guest to have on your first night.

[1944] Big pull.

[1945] Tom.

[1946] Tommy H. It closed down.

[1947] Yeah.

[1948] Yeah, in April of 2012.

[1949] But then they opened a second location in Chicago in 2008.

[1950] Then a third location in Barcelona.

[1951] No. Uh -huh.

[1952] Uh -huh.

[1953] And then a fourth in Hollywood.

[1954] I wouldn't know how to open up one in my backyard, much less one in Barcelona.

[1955] Should we try?

[1956] So they're successful and they're still.

[1957] Well, yeah.

[1958] Well, they were.

[1959] They were successful.

[1960] But then in 2011, no, I'm sorry, the Hollywood, the fourth location, the Hollywood opened in 2011.

[1961] Okay.

[1962] And the Chicago location is the only one that's still open.

[1963] Okay.

[1964] It's still open.

[1965] Yeah.

[1966] I don't know.

[1967] Better than any bar I've started.

[1968] Maybe Pete has left.

[1969] I don't know.

[1970] We don't know.

[1971] No. Check it out, though.

[1972] If you're in the windy city, go over to Gibson's grab a steak, and then finish the night out at Angels and Demons.

[1973] Angels and kings.

[1974] Angels and kings.

[1975] Angels and kings.

[1976] Okay.

[1977] So Pete also talked about how his grandfather met Muhammad Ali on a plane.

[1978] Remember he found that picture?

[1979] Yeah, he was the ambassador to Nepal or something crazy.

[1980] No, Sri Lanka.

[1981] Don't stop saying stuff.

[1982] I'm sorry.

[1983] I'm sorry.

[1984] Yeah, these are endless.

[1985] Yeah, sorry.

[1986] I'm sorry.

[1987] Keep all future claims.

[1988] But he was, he was sort of unclear as to why he thought it had something to do with Jimmy Carter.

[1989] Okay.

[1990] But it was because, so the Olympics, the summer Olympics of 1980 were hosted by Moscow.

[1991] Okay.

[1992] Of the Soviet Union at that time.

[1993] And we're sure Moscow's in the Soviet Union?

[1994] It wasn't, yes.

[1995] Okay.

[1996] Yes, I can say that with 100 % confidence.

[1997] Okay.

[1998] And our president at the time, Jimmy Carter, led a boycott of the Olympics.

[1999] Oh, okay.

[2000] Because the Soviet Union failed to comply with a deadline to withdraws troops from Afghanistan.

[2001] In 65 countries, boycotted that Olympics.

[2002] Yet we've been there now for 14 years or something crazy and people still attend our Olympics.

[2003] People come to our Olympics.

[2004] Whatever.

[2005] What's good for the goose may not be good for the gander.

[2006] Correct.

[2007] So they met.

[2008] So what's weird is Jimmy was boycotting the Olympics, yet somehow Pete Wince's granddad and Muhammad Ali were on an airplane headed over there.

[2009] They were sending a big fuck you to Jimmy Carter.

[2010] They weren't going there.

[2011] They were, according to Pete, what he was saying is they were recruited by Jimmy Carter.

[2012] They were part of this team to convince other countries not to go.

[2013] Side note, I think this is so unfair when they ask.

[2014] Olympians to not be a part of something.

[2015] Remember there's also a documentary and they were calling on black athletes not to attend but then some went and then they gave the black power sign on the podium.

[2016] Do you remember that whole thing?

[2017] Oh vaguely yeah.

[2018] Yeah, it just seems so unfair to go to somebody.

[2019] Okay, you've worked your whole life.

[2020] Yeah, 20 years and now you got a fucking shoulder this whole thing.

[2021] I know.

[2022] Fuck you.

[2023] I agree.

[2024] Yeah.

[2025] But then if they don't, if they do it, then they can, they could also lose their career because of that.

[2026] I don't know what career Olympians have other than going to the Olympics.

[2027] That's true.

[2028] It's hard to get endorsements for skipping the Olympics.

[2029] Yeah, but after the Olympics, they have to have jobs.

[2030] Like what if we celebrated people who quit the Olympic team in protest?

[2031] Maybe if there were some opportunities, you know, to monetize that decision, I'd be more sympathetic, but I'm not.

[2032] Well, they also have to work in high schools and colleges after they go to the Olympics and they coach that sport.

[2033] Yeah.

[2034] Yeah.

[2035] Again, I still don't know why you hire a guy who quit to run your wrestling program at Western Michigan University.

[2036] Point made.

[2037] We can delete this part maybe or we can keep it in, but Pete talks about a book that the band 108 wrote or the guy from that band wrote about Krishna core.

[2038] Okay.

[2039] And I scoured the internet.

[2040] Can't find it.

[2041] cannot find it anywhere.

[2042] Probably self -published in his garage or something.

[2043] Maybe.

[2044] Maybe he wrote it for Pete.

[2045] Maybe he wrote specific.

[2046] Maybe it was a letter.

[2047] Yeah.

[2048] A big component of that hardcore scene in the early 90s was zines.

[2049] You know, a lot of guys published zines.

[2050] Oh, yeah.

[2051] Friends of mine had zines.

[2052] Yeah, and you basically just made him over at Kinko's, you know.

[2053] So maybe this was more of a zine he's referencing.

[2054] Zee.

[2055] Which would probably be hard to find on the internet.

[2056] Is it short for magazine?

[2057] I think it's a cooler version of the word magazine.

[2058] Cooler in quotes.

[2059] In quotes, yeah.

[2060] Sounds terrible.

[2061] And also the word magazine is so lame.

[2062] Ew, gross magazine.

[2063] Sounds like maggie.

[2064] Something your parents would read a magazine.

[2065] Okay.

[2066] Then Pete mentions, okay, so Pete talks about and you did too, like crazy concerts what happens at crazy concerts and I had really tuned out because I had no idea I don't know that scene I don't go to that type of concert no you were a cheerleader yeah I went to Britney Spears concerts and stuff and watched friends over and over and watched a lot of friends but he mentions the wall of death and you acted like you knew what that was but I didn't I was fibbing you were okay good I Can I guess?

[2067] Yeah.

[2068] Is it like you stand on something really high, like some scaffolding for the equipment and then you dive, you do a crowd dive?

[2069] No, but I would have guessed, I would have guessed some sort of crowd surfing thing too, just like a more hard car.

[2070] Or stage diving is what we called it, yeah.

[2071] But it's not that at all.

[2072] It's a true reenactment of war.

[2073] Rob, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but that's.

[2074] This is what the internet says.

[2075] It's a true reenactment of war as two sides split down the middle, charged towards each other with the hope of survival.

[2076] Oh.

[2077] Okay.

[2078] I've never witnessed that at many, many a show I attended.

[2079] That is crazy.

[2080] It was popular in the Chicago area or something.

[2081] It was?

[2082] Okay.

[2083] Rob, who's from Chicago, confirms that that was really popular.

[2084] The Wall of Death is popular.

[2085] Yeah.

[2086] Did people die?

[2087] I'm sure somebody died.

[2088] You would know about the term wall of death if people were dying from it, I bet.

[2089] That's my guess.

[2090] It says a true reenactment of war, so I'm going to assume there's some carnage involved.

[2091] Okay, so you discussed Ted Nugent.

[2092] Uncle Ted.

[2093] Uh -huh.

[2094] And you said he adopted his second wife from Hawaii.

[2095] Yep.

[2096] And that's very close.

[2097] He got guardianship over her.

[2098] Yeah.

[2099] Yeah, he dated a 17 -year -old when he was 30 and then made himself her legal guardian.

[2100] With the parents' permission, if you believe VH1 behind the music, which I do.

[2101] Yeah, he asked if he could do that and they agree.

[2102] Can you imagine me signing over one of my two daughters to a 30 -year -old rock star in a loin cloth, which is what he wore at the time?

[2103] I mean, it depends on his personality.

[2104] It would have to be a pretty persuasive personality.

[2105] He'd have to have charisma to burn.

[2106] I'm going to guess that her parents probably weren't very involved in her life.

[2107] Well, careful now.

[2108] You could be liable.

[2109] I said, I'm going to guess.

[2110] Okay, okay.

[2111] I preface.

[2112] I have no knowledge, right.

[2113] I have no knowledge.

[2114] I'm just saying.

[2115] Yeah.

[2116] They probably didn't have, um, they didn't love her.

[2117] They were looking forward to more date nights, probably.

[2118] She'll be in Michigan.

[2119] Well, they're Hawaiian, so their culture is a little different.

[2120] Yeah.

[2121] than yours.

[2122] Right.

[2123] Okay, then you mentioned your favorite biography, Titan.

[2124] Mm -hmm.

[2125] Full title is Titan, The Life of John D. Rockefeller, Senior.

[2126] By Ron Chernow.

[2127] Correct.

[2128] And it's approximately 800 pages.

[2129] So when you brought that up, I feel I need to say that.

[2130] Full disclosure.

[2131] Full disclosure, and I always feel guilty when I say I've read a book that I've really listened to.

[2132] I've listened to that book three times now.

[2133] It still counts.

[2134] Yeah, for me it does.

[2135] I think it counts.

[2136] But I can see where people are like more impressed that you're read an 800 -page book, then listen to an 800 -page book.

[2137] Yeah.

[2138] But for me, it goes much quicker.

[2139] If someone reads it to me, then I have to read it.

[2140] Sure.

[2141] Pete suggested that Cecil B. DeMille owned the park.

[2142] I assume he meant Griffith Park, and that's incorrect.

[2143] Is that what he did?

[2144] Because I suggested that I think that he owned Loughlin Park.

[2145] I think that's what park we were talking about.

[2146] Oh.

[2147] Because this is 40 acres or something, and I feel like when he first moved.

[2148] moved here but maybe I'm wrong.

[2149] Do people refer to Loughlin Park as the park when Griffith Park is right there?

[2150] I don't know.

[2151] It's hard to say.

[2152] Okay, hard to say.

[2153] But he doesn't own Griffith Park in case that is what he wasn't playing.

[2154] No, no, no, no. But do you know who owned Griffith Park first or who?

[2155] No. Griffith J. Griffith.

[2156] Oh.

[2157] Isn't that a cool name?

[2158] Is it?

[2159] I should do a little more research because what if that was like a weird...

[2160] Should I have named one of the girls, Shepard Shepard?

[2161] What if his name is just J. Griffith?

[2162] But, okay, I'm going to have to look into that a little further.

[2163] But I think it's a cool name and I hope it's right.

[2164] Okay, so you spouted off a lot of stuff about Rockefeller and the amount of money.

[2165] Uh -huh.

[2166] In relation to the GDP.

[2167] Yeah, and to today, right?

[2168] You were saying, yeah.

[2169] Okay, so I looked it up and.

[2170] John D. Rockfeller, who became the first billionaire, you said that.

[2171] By the time he died in 1937, his assets equaled 1 .5 % of America's total economic output.

[2172] There you go.

[2173] Yeah.

[2174] And what's our current economic output?

[2175] Well, it said to control an equivalent share today would require a net worth of about $340 billion.

[2176] Boom.

[2177] More than four times that of Bill Gave.

[2178] currently the world's richest man whose net worth is $86 billion.

[2179] But didn't you just tell me I thought it was Jeff Bezos.

[2180] Yes, I did.

[2181] I was right.

[2182] I was told that information.

[2183] Monica filmed a commercial with Jeff Bezos recently.

[2184] I don't think we're allowed to say that.

[2185] By the time this comes out?

[2186] Yeah, next year.

[2187] We're allowed to say that.

[2188] Yeah, you're right.

[2189] By then we'll be allowed to say it.

[2190] Okay.

[2191] People don't know who Jeff Bezos is.

[2192] We weren't even allowed.

[2193] Okay.

[2194] I'm going to stop.

[2195] What if you're contractually forbidden to ever say the word, the name Jeff Bezos?

[2196] I mean, I wouldn't be that surprised.

[2197] He was very nice, though.

[2198] And I was told me as much.

[2199] And suspiciously muscular nowadays.

[2200] According to you.

[2201] Well, I showed you a side -by -side picture.

[2202] Anyone who's not done the side -by -side picture of him from like 20 years ago and now, he looks like he had a body transplant with Mel Gibson.

[2203] I wonder if we should post it on the website.

[2204] Oh, that would be great.

[2205] I think that would be helpful for people to see what's possible.

[2206] Yeah.

[2207] So right now, if you're in your late 20s and you're a computer programmer in tech at all, and you think, I'll never look like Mel Gibson and Braveheart.

[2208] Not true.

[2209] You could if you decide.

[2210] Yeah.

[2211] Yeah.

[2212] You don't like that I'm using Mel Gibson all the time.

[2213] No. For the example of a dream bod.

[2214] That's not why.

[2215] I just have a little more information than you because I've now seen him in person.

[2216] Right, right, right.

[2217] And you've seen a picture.

[2218] And I, you know, you're a little inaccurate, but that's okay.

[2219] Right.

[2220] He's really nice.

[2221] And he's not the richest person in the world, though.

[2222] I was told he was.

[2223] I saw that.

[2224] Last year.

[2225] I saw that.

[2226] He had the title for a minute.

[2227] Yeah, even that's a little.

[2228] But yeah.

[2229] Suspicious.

[2230] Yeah.

[2231] Okay.

[2232] So in regards to you talking about how the industry has changed, the film industry.

[2233] You said that the year without a paddle came out, Paramount Studios, released 12 movies, and last year they released four.

[2234] Yeah, those were guesses for sure.

[2235] Yeah.

[2236] So without a paddle, came on 2004 and released 16 movies, Paramountalty 16 movies that year.

[2237] And in 2017, they released 13.

[2238] Oh, they did?

[2239] Yeah.

[2240] So it really...

[2241] Are some of them under an umbrella title?

[2242] Like, they had Paramount Vantage and some of these other things.

[2243] Some of these must be directed.

[2244] Possibly, but they still came for.

[2245] From the studio.

[2246] The studio.

[2247] And I wonder if some of them, though, were released just on VOD and not theatrically.

[2248] Well, when I looked, when I looked at the titles, I almost wrote them down, but that felt.

[2249] You recognized all of them.

[2250] Yeah.

[2251] Oh, okay.

[2252] With the most part.

[2253] It was wrong.

[2254] I guess you got, you caught me. You got me in your crosshairs.

[2255] That's the first time of all of these.

[2256] Yeah.

[2257] Sure.

[2258] Okay, so you also said, and maybe this was just a misspeak, but you said jazz originated in Chicago and traveled to New Orleans, and that's the other way around.

[2259] Okay.

[2260] And I wouldn't have even said it originated in either of those places.

[2261] I only meant to say that the Mississippi and those paddle boats and the casinos on them and all that stuff kept influencing different regions, like different jazz.

[2262] types would migrate north and south on the Mississippi.

[2263] Again, I learned that in a jazz history class in 1995, so I could certainly be wrong at this point.

[2264] Yeah, I don't think, I think it started in New Orleans.

[2265] Yeah, you can relax.

[2266] You can just take a breath over there.

[2267] Sorry to New Orleans, though.

[2268] Oh, okay.

[2269] But it did, it did make its way up to Chicago.

[2270] Oh, okay.

[2271] And then you talked about, country music is kind of the only genre.

[2272] It sells a lot of albums.

[2273] Yeah, and selling CDs.

[2274] And I looked into that a little bit, and we could have guessed this, and you probably have already guessed why.

[2275] Because hillbillies don't use computers?

[2276] No. But close?

[2277] No, because the...

[2278] Older demographic.

[2279] Yeah, the median age is much higher for country music listeners.

[2280] Right.

[2281] They're more, they're used to going into stores and buying CDs and stuff like that.

[2282] Yeah.

[2283] They're not as tech savvy.

[2284] Not yet.

[2285] Okay.

[2286] And I just wanted to clarify that you said, M. Knight -Sharmelon made the sixth sense.

[2287] And then by your estimation, yeah, by your estimation decided he's to stop listening to people.

[2288] Yeah.

[2289] And we don't know him at all.

[2290] We didn't ask.

[2291] And we just don't know if that's true at all.

[2292] I wanted to make sure that was said.

[2293] No, the only thing I'll say that is true and known is that if you make the godfather, your opinion holds a lot more weight post -godfather than it does pre -godfather.

[2294] Yeah.

[2295] Which can be very dangerous for a lot of artists.

[2296] I'll stand by that claim.

[2297] I think that's true.

[2298] Yeah.

[2299] But we don't know anything about that.

[2300] I've never met him, never hung out with them.

[2301] He could have listened to everyone.

[2302] The estimation, the movies have gotten precipitously worse.

[2303] Yes, I agree, but we don't really know why.

[2304] Yeah, we don't.

[2305] There's so many reasons movies.

[2306] Yeah, they can go sideways, yeah.

[2307] Okay, and lastly, Pete's album releases January 19th.

[2308] And we got really excited about that because we were like, yay, that's so timely.

[2309] And then this is not going to come out in time.

[2310] It's not timely and I wanted to apologize to him or just to the world but but there's really nothing to apologize for because let me tell you why you would you would owe everyone an apology if it'd gone the other way so let's say that they were listening to it in December and you said it's coming out December 20th and then it wasn't going to come out to February so they were pissed and they had to wait but this is they're going to learn about it.

[2311] It's already out this is only upside I think if you're going to err in one direction I think we aired in the right direction Don't tell me who to apologize.

[2312] Okay, I'm so sorry.

[2313] I think you owe me an apology.

[2314] That was it?

[2315] All done.

[2316] That wasn't bad.

[2317] Yeah.

[2318] It really took me a long.

[2319] I can't really, I have to reiterate how long it took me to get through.

[2320] Yeah, and this is a process for you.

[2321] You'll probably get more streamlined, right, about the whole, the way you attack this.

[2322] You don't know.

[2323] Okay.

[2324] Depends.

[2325] It just depends.

[2326] Hence, if I have a huge chunk of time, that's better.

[2327] But that's hard to have.

[2328] Right.

[2329] I know you're very busy.

[2330] That's all.

[2331] I love you.

[2332] Thank you.

[2333] Thank you.

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[2338] What's up, guys?

[2339] This your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[2340] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[2341] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[2342] And I don't mean just friends.

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