Serena Williams’s Final Run

[0] From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is the Daily.

[1] Over the weekend, the U .S. Open tennis tournament crowned its winners.

[2] But for a lot of people, this year's Open was not about who won.

[3] It was about a player who wasn't even on the court last week, Serena Williams.

[4] Today, my colleague Natalie Ketroef speaks with New York Times culture critic Wesley Morris, on the tennis great's retirement and on her.

[5] her impact on tennis, sports, and the country.

[6] It's Monday, September 12th.

[7] Hi, Wesley.

[8] Welcome back.

[9] Oh, my God.

[10] Natalie.

[11] Hi!

[12] Okay, so I want to start with a disclosure, some real talk.

[13] What's talk?

[14] Which is that a little bit ago, we taped an entirely different episode about Serena Williams, who announced last month that she would be retiring.

[15] from professional tennis.

[16] And we made said episode anticipating that she would be out after the first round of the U .S. Open because you, Wesley, two -time Pulitzer Prize -winning culture critic and lifelong tennis fan, you were absolutely certain of it.

[17] I mean, look, yes, I did think that in round one of the 2020, U .S. Open, her very last professional tennis tournament, I thought she was going to lose.

[18] Right.

[19] But then she went on this run.

[20] Not a long run, but not a tiny one either.

[21] And we're going to get to that.

[22] But the crazy thing about it, about how we blew it, is that that's the idea behind this episode.

[23] It's how Serena Williams always seems to defy expectations.

[24] I just sort of feel like nothing about Serena is predictable.

[25] We don't really even know where to begin with what she has come to mean along with her sister Venus to professional tennis.

[26] One of the things that comes up in this question of what Serena Williams is means, is this idea of the goat, the greatest of all time.

[27] And this is a conversation that everybody likes to have.

[28] I think that it goes like this, Natalie.

[29] Muhammad Ali, Serena Williams.

[30] Wow.

[31] Like, Muhammad Ali is the greatest athlete of all time, period.

[32] He just is.

[33] Not only for what he did in the sport, because I think greatness, it has to be something about what you risked, what you signified, what you changed, how you changed your sport.

[34] I think Serena Williams' effect on tennis and on people's perception of what the sport is and what it could be, especially for black people, for non -white people, for poor people, for people all over the world who thought tennis was an elitist sport.

[35] We're just, we're years away from us even beginning to understand this woman's significance.

[36] Okay, so let's start getting to the bottom of that, to the bottom of her significance.

[37] where should we start?

[38] Compton, California, baby.

[39] Venus and Serena grew up in Copton, California.

[40] And they're the daughters of Orsene Price, Richard Williams.

[41] You got to win.

[42] Oh, you're going to win for us?

[43] Good girl.

[44] And one day, Richard's watching TV.

[45] And it was giving this young lady $40 ,000 because she won the tournament.

[46] And I figured since I worked for $52 ,000 all year, and this girl makes $40 ,000 in four days, I knew I was in the wrong.

[47] own business.

[48] And he's like, oh man, this might be a thing my children can do.

[49] We didn't talk on the phone.

[50] We didn't go to school parties.

[51] And most of the time I was at practice.

[52] And so he takes Venus and Serena to public courts every day, day in, day out.

[53] And they practice and practice and practice.

[54] And, you know, from the beginning, from the beginning, Richard knew what he had.

[55] Every champion that live has four main qualities.

[56] And she has all those qualities.

[57] And that's what makes Venus, Venus.

[58] And Serena, she's so strong.

[59] Serena would probably be a better player than Venus.

[60] That's not to compare my girls, but she will be.

[61] And he was telling anybody who would listen, you know, my wife and I, we train these two girls and they're going to spank your daughters.

[62] Look out.

[63] I got two tennis champions in my house.

[64] So yes, I think sometime about them winning, the big ones like the U .S. Open and Wilming and we will win them one day.

[65] So I have to imagine there was this disbelief, right, that these two black sisters from Compton were going to be as good as their dad promised.

[66] Natalie, I didn't believe it.

[67] Because you have to remember that the sport they were entering was, it was a white sport.

[68] And it wasn't as though this predominantly white sport had never had black players before.

[69] There was Althea Gibson, the great Althea Gippson, Gibson, who was the country's first black woman to win Wimbledon, among other tournaments.

[70] There was Arthur Ash, who faced his own sort of uphill battle to win the majors that he won.

[71] Those players made an impact on the sport, but they didn't change the sport, right?

[72] They succeeded.

[73] They went to finals in a lot of cases.

[74] They had great memorable matches.

[75] But it was still a white sport predominantly.

[76] And it didn't seem possible that somebody could come along and assert their blackness into this sport like Venus and Serena.

[77] And so I would say what Venus and Serena are entering is a sport that has always conceived of itself as being a white sport, even if they wouldn't say that it was a white sport.

[78] You know, anybody could look at it and be like, well, who's not playing the sport?

[79] and when they get there, then it becomes a matter of all of the things that tennis has always been versus everything these two people represent.

[80] Okay, what happens when the Williams sisters arrive on the tour?

[81] So Venus was the first to go professional, and I think she won her first match when she was 14.

[82] And Serena waited a little longer to get onto the circuit, but by about 16, I mean, she was beating some of the top players in the world.

[83] And once they start winning, people have to start taking what Richard said seriously about him having these great tennis player daughters, that he wasn't playing, essentially.

[84] It was the truth.

[85] And before long, they become so dominant that they're playing each other in championships.

[86] and it's so unusual for this to happen.

[87] This family basically said this was going to happen that these two people were going to be playing a lot of tennis at a major level, and it was coming true.

[88] And at the point at which it becomes clear that watching Venus and Zerina play each other in championship semifinals and finals was just going to be a regular staple of the American tennis watching diet, this really wild.

[89] thing happens.

[90] The whole sport just kind of starts to go into denial.

[91] There were years in which people thought they were actually fixing the matches, cheating, that somehow Richard had said, okay, Venus, you're going to win this match, and Serena, you're just going to have to, you know, just like pretend to try your best, but ultimately, it's Venus's turn, she's going to win.

[92] People thought this.

[93] People thought that he was pulling the strings to make sure that when they played each other, the Williams family would get the outcome it wanted, that we weren't watching professional tennis, we're watching professional wrestling.

[94] Okay, where do we see this playing out on the court?

[95] The first incident that comes to mind, the most notorious incident that comes to mind, is the tournament at Indian Wells in California in 2001.

[96] Welcome to viewers from British Eurosport.

[97] It's an amazing sound here.

[98] Phenis was supposed to play Serena.

[99] the semifinal, but Venus pulled out right before the match because she had an injury.

[100] And so Serena basically gets a walkover to the final against Kim Kleisters.

[101] And there's just this uproar.

[102] Like, everybody was upset being like Richard fixed this, so they wouldn't have to play each other.

[103] So that Serena would basically just get to go straight to the final.

[104] And there's Father Richard coming down.

[105] It's quite amazing.

[106] There's Venus.

[107] And the crowd, an American crowd, booing an American family.

[108] Venus and Richard, you know, entering the stadium to, get to their seats, they're walking down, and you just hear the sound of boots.

[109] I'm just speechless.

[110] I've never heard this before ever, and I've been on the circuit or was on the circuit for quite a long time.

[111] It's just, it's like you would think it was Roman times.

[112] It's just jeering, constant, loud, jeering.

[113] And the booing goes on throughout most of the match.

[114] she's a champion again still some booze but perhaps not as many as expected because she's silenced quite a few of them but she's through to the title and has won for the second time I'm probably going to start crying a number of times during this conversation Natalie but it was that they were booing these black women for being there at all like what is in it for those fans.

[115] Like, why boo?

[116] Why express that?

[117] But, see, that's the energy that they elicited for years.

[118] That was the energy, jeering.

[119] Skepticism, disbelief, condemnation, nose -holding.

[120] Believe it or not, there's still a skepticism in some parts of the public in terms of one William's sister plays another, Could you talk to the public in terms of what happens when Venus plays Serena and whether there's...

[121] And sometimes, you know, they would respond to things that were happening, you know, so between the lines, so to speak.

[122] Well, the main thing is that I find the question pretty offensive because I'm extremely professional in everything that I do on and off the court.

[123] They would be responding to the way they felt they were being treated, things that other players were saying about them that reporters would ask them about in press conference.

[124] So any mention of that is extremely disrespectful for who I am, what I stand for, and my family.

[125] So that's pretty much how I feel about the whole subject.

[126] That was always, always, always, always there.

[127] And so for a lot of people who came to this sport because of these two people, that energy is a part of, I mean, at least in my family, and I know I probably speak for a lot of black families when I say this, there was a pride in watching them play and an agony in watching the response to their playing.

[128] But the coverage of the way they played and the disdain for the way they played and the skepticism about this being a good style of tennis and they're changing, they're ruining the game.

[129] Well, let's talk about that, their style of play.

[130] Tell me about it.

[131] I mean, power.

[132] Oh, hello.

[133] My goodness.

[134] Nobody had ever seen tennis play the way Venus and Serena play tennis.

[135] Oh, come on.

[136] Oh, my goodness.

[137] They hit the ball really hard.

[138] Whoa.

[139] Cricy.

[140] Holy mackerel.

[141] Just brought the rocket launcher out, the bazooker.

[142] And...

[143] Oh, how does she do it?

[144] They hit it from all over the court really hard.

[145] Like, there are times when these two are on the run, what they call the dead.

[146] run and they're running after the ball and Serena will like swing a forehand like a loping looping forehand and the ball will just it'll be what they call a winner which is just like an uncontested shot basically point Serena Williams eight straight points for Williams they were doing this like at top speed hitting these balls I mean there's been running in tennis but this was like a track meat and a tennis match.

[147] And people just had never seen anything like that before.

[148] And I just want to be really clear about an aspect of what is being lamented here with the introduction of these extra miles per hour on the ball.

[149] There's a kind of person who, when it comes to women's tennis, expects, I mean, I hate to say it because welcome the misogyny, but like they want a daintiness, right?

[150] They don't want to see, like, a woman -identified athletes playing the way, quote, men do, unquote, right?

[151] The idea that Venus and Serena were running down every ball and hitting winners from all over the court.

[152] In order to do that, you have to be an athlete in top shape, in peak condition.

[153] They did that, and they were winning.

[154] And Serena eventually becomes the most dominant player in the sport.

[155] And she becomes so dominant, in fact, they have to invent a phrase for her dominance.

[156] There's a new term.

[157] The Serena slam.

[158] That is basically when you win all four major tennis tournament titles.

[159] The Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon, and the U .S. Open.

[160] You have all four titles in your name.

[161] Serena had them contiguously in succession.

[162] Right.

[163] I mean, this power game.

[164] that they were at the forefront of.

[165] It changed the sport so much that in some ways it became the new norm.

[166] I mean, the reality is it was almost inevitable in the end, right?

[167] I mean, if you wanted to win, you almost had to play like them.

[168] Yeah.

[169] I mean, you say that and something comes up for me, which is basically, you know, I tend to think.

[170] Like the bigger picture in the grid scheme of things, and things off the court.

[171] But this is the way of the country.

[172] This is America that's happening on this tennis court, right?

[173] What do you mean?

[174] I mean, once black people enter something that they're not allowed to be in, once their granted entry or like have to get to kick the door down to be in or prove that they deserve to be there, things change.

[175] I mean, this is true with music.

[176] This is true with things.

[177] fashion, once you open the gate or the gate gets opened, the people who are keeping that gate no longer have control over what happens inside the kingdom.

[178] Because the people who you've been keeping out, they want to innovate.

[179] They want to give opportunities to other people.

[180] They want to keep that gate open.

[181] And those people don't like that.

[182] And so there's a way in which Venus and Serena, the resistance to them was the same resistance that it has always been true for black people in this country, there's no going back.

[183] You can try if you want to.

[184] You can keep finding new ways to resist the changes, the progress that we have been trying to make this whole time, but we're still going to move forward no matter what.

[185] And that, to me, I mean, I know we're talking about tennis, But it just feels so much, it always feels so much bigger with these two than tennis for me. We'll be right back.

[186] Wesley, we were just talking about how Serena and Venus Williams changed the game of tennis in their style of play, about how often they were breaking the mold and how that was sometimes met with real doubt and skepticism.

[187] So how else did Serena Williams change the game?

[188] I mean, she changed the way the game looked.

[189] There was this expectation that the sport was going to remain, you know, skinny, blonde, corporeally Eurocentric.

[190] And then along comes this person in the form of Serena Williams.

[191] And she is not blonde.

[192] And she does not hail from Europe.

[193] She was curvy.

[194] She's muscular.

[195] Right.

[196] I remember her body was always this perennial topic.

[197] of, like, tortured discussion in the media.

[198] It always, yes.

[199] Sports writers, broadcasters, other players, everybody was confused because their body didn't conform to this alleged standard that the sport had set for itself.

[200] And a lot of the sort of displeasure and skepticism and cruelty displayed at Serena Williams' body had to do with the fact, in part, that it did not look like, the person who would become one of her chief rivals, Maria Sharapova.

[201] Right.

[202] Who was also the number one player in the world for a time.

[203] Mm -hmm.

[204] And Maria Sharapova looked like what I would say is the apotheosis of what people think of when they think of a tennis player.

[205] You know, her tall, skinny, blondness fit the mold of, you know, the standard American and I would say European.

[206] I'd say global in some ways.

[207] ideal of what a body is supposed to look like, not just for certain tennis fans, but also for people who pay athletes to endorse products.

[208] The top earner during their lopsided rivalry, because Serena won most of their matches, was Maria Sharapova.

[209] She was the one getting all the endorsement money, more than Serena, I should say.

[210] Talk about unprecedented.

[211] There had been no precedent for giving a black woman who looked like Serena Williams more money, than a woman who looked like Maria Sharapova.

[212] There's just no two ways around it.

[213] It's funny, for me growing up playing tennis, as someone with more of a muscular body type, Maria Sharapova was kind of always cast, I think, as the antidote, the opposite of that.

[214] And I actually went back and looked at how she talked about her body.

[215] And she said in this interview with the New York Times in 2015 that she wanted to be, quote, skinnier with less sons.

[216] I think that's every girl's wish.

[217] She also said she couldn't handle lifting more than five pounds.

[218] And then in her book, when she talked about Serena Williams, she said Serena Williams is much more muscular in person than she looks on TV.

[219] You know, she talked about Serena's, which she called thick arms and thick legs.

[220] I mean, listen, this is what she was up against all the time.

[221] And this is what Serena was up against culturally in tennis, right?

[222] Serena's battling a stereotype of just black womanhood around the world.

[223] And I think the thing about Serena Williams that was really thrilling for a lot of people was that she didn't try to become what Sharapova was.

[224] She loved her body.

[225] She came to the tennis court showing it off.

[226] and she used clothes to do that.

[227] And she didn't just use, like, any old clothes.

[228] This is the person who wore some very famous outfits, including the denim skirt.

[229] Do you remember that?

[230] Yeah.

[231] The pleaded denim skirt with the, like, a diamond navel ring.

[232] I mean, she was dressing like she was going to a Janet Jackson video, not do a trophy ceremony.

[233] That was thrilling.

[234] The hair, you know, to the blonde braids.

[235] the many different braids, the weaves.

[236] Serena brings a lot of black culture into the sport and doesn't apologize for it.

[237] If anything, she's like, come on, I'm still winning.

[238] It's not hurting me. Make it on y 'all's nerves.

[239] But if you're coming to watch me play, it's denim skirts and blonde braids, okay?

[240] Okay?

[241] Right.

[242] And tennis did not know what to do, with what Serena Williams wore.

[243] Okay, Wesley, give me an example of where you saw this manifesting.

[244] I mean, my instinct is to go back to the early 2000s, but you could just go to 2018, you can go four years ago.

[245] Serena has come back from having a child.

[246] This is her first set of tournament since becoming a mother.

[247] And her first big one is at Roland Garros, the French Open.

[248] And her pregnancy was very difficult.

[249] She almost died, she says.

[250] And she comes back and she wears this great black body suit.

[251] It's got short sleeves and this pink sash.

[252] And they call it a cat suit.

[253] And it's also apparently functional because, according to her, it helped with her blood clots.

[254] She suffers from those.

[255] And another thing she said about this outfit was that she was inspired to wear it by watching Black Panther, it reminded her in some way of Wakanda.

[256] I think to the extent that she is a person of politics, I think it was amazingly political.

[257] It was an opportunity to suggest that there was another way to play tennis.

[258] But obviously, people are going to talk, right?

[259] And the French Tennis Federation, when she wins this black cats who had something to say, Can I just read you what the French Tennis Federation president said about this outfit?

[260] Yes.

[261] The combination of Serena this year, for example, it will no longer be accepted.

[262] You have to respect the game and the place.

[263] Respect the game and the place.

[264] It sounds like this isn't just about an outfit.

[265] There's something about the power that she has.

[266] as a person with that body and those clothes that is just too much for people, for some people.

[267] It's abnormal.

[268] It's outside of a standard.

[269] And that is an interesting aspect of the politics of this person, is that she is trying to redefine what power can look like.

[270] Instead of having to be ashamed of that body, it is now a thing of authority.

[271] And the French tennis, Federation does not know what to do with that kind of black power.

[272] You know, respecting the game and respecting the place, this is something that Venus and Serena Williams have been constantly told they have to do.

[273] They are constantly being accused of disrespecting the sport.

[274] We let y 'all in, and y 'all don't want to play by our rules?

[275] We tolerated you.

[276] You want to be wearing things like a cat suit.

[277] Oh, no. Oh, no. That's not what we do in the sport.

[278] It sounds like what happened here with the cat suit at the French Open, but just kind of in general for Serena Williams, is that there was this message that she kept receiving from some parts of the tennis establishment, which was, we let you into this sport.

[279] Now you owe us in a way, and you have to play by our written and unwritten rules.

[280] Mostly unwritten.

[281] Yes.

[282] And, you know, there's another way in which Serena is accused of not really respecting the sport in its roles.

[283] And that's, I think, the way in which she expresses emotion on court.

[284] Serena is furious.

[285] She'll smash a racket.

[286] She'll scream, come on!

[287] She's got the most famous, come on.

[288] I'm sorry, Ratha, but your vamos is nothing compared to Serena Williams.

[289] Come on.

[290] exhorting herself to keep pushing harder when she's trying to claw her way back into a match or when she just feels like her game isn't clicking.

[291] And I think that Serena's mold breaking here is that she is not a man expressing this anger on tennis courts.

[292] Because ultimately another thing about tennis is people, even if they don't actually say it, they expect it to be gendered in this particular way.

[293] And they expect women, you know, women identified people to be ladylike.

[294] However we mean that, I think it's deemed unladylike to lose your temper in the way that Serena lost it.

[295] And these tantrums were frequently held against her, sometimes rightly because she was threatening people on court.

[296] So I'm not trying to excuse any of this stuff.

[297] But the point is basically that people concluded based on these.

[298] that she didn't respect the game.

[299] And all those things to me come into focus and are all on display at the 2018 U .S. Open between her and Naomi Osaka, who at the time was a young up -and -comer, became a star while Serena was having her baby, and on maternity leave, essentially.

[300] And here she is, facing her idol Serena Williams in the final.

[301] So Osaka wins the first set.

[302] And then at the beginning of the second set, the chair umpire, Carlos Ramos, veteran umpire, very by the book.

[303] Ramos, I think, sees the coach making this, this motion.

[304] If he gets me a thumbs up, he's telling me to come on.

[305] We don't have any code.

[306] And just offers a code violation for coaching.

[307] She's like, wait, I don't cheat.

[308] She says to him, I don't cheat to win.

[309] I'd rather lose.

[310] I'm just letting you know.

[311] I don't cheat to win.

[312] I'd rather lose.

[313] Uh -huh.

[314] But she's very calm.

[315] And he's like, I get it.

[316] I had to do this.

[317] You know, I saw a thing that I thought I saw, but I'm not saying you're a cheater.

[318] But I got to assess this penalty.

[319] So later in the match, Serena's ahead.

[320] And she hits the ball into the net.

[321] And she's so frustrated with herself.

[322] Why is my game not working?

[323] And she stands there.

[324] And you can see her thinking about what I'm going to do right now.

[325] What am I going to do?

[326] What am I going to do?

[327] And she smet.

[328] smashes the racket onto the court.

[329] And I mean, like, violently smash, destroys the racket.

[330] And I remember, do you remember this, Natalie, the shot of the racket?

[331] Yeah, on the court, just like that.

[332] Mangled.

[333] Yeah.

[334] And so Carlos Ramos then.

[335] Curate violation, record abuse.

[336] Point penalty, Mrs. Williams.

[337] He assesses a point for racket abuse.

[338] Meaning she loses a point, which is pretty significant.

[339] The next game they're about to play, Serena's automatically down a point.

[340] And she must look up with the scoreboard or something and see that there's already a point in Naomi Osaka's name on the board.

[341] Serena's confused by the score being called out.

[342] And she's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, what is going on here?

[343] So she goes over to Carlos Ramos and says, what's happening right now?

[344] And he explains that it's because you had the violation from earlier and now you've got a second violation for smashing your racket.

[345] I've got to assess a point.

[346] This is the beginning of the end.

[347] And Serena wants him to apologize to her.

[348] That's her thing at this point.

[349] She gets to a point where she's like, you owe me an apology.

[350] And she wants it known.

[351] I want you to announce to the crowd that I don't cheat.

[352] But there's another thing she says while this is going on that I think is really important.

[353] Which is.

[354] She says, I'm a mother.

[355] I mean, how can you say this to me?

[356] I'm a mother.

[357] Don't accuse me of being a cheater.

[358] I have a daughter probably watching this match.

[359] And you're going to tell her in the world that I'm cheating?

[360] I mean, she goes on and she calls him a thief.

[361] He's hearing her saying.

[362] this, and he assesses a third penalty.

[363] Now, these penalties are escalating, essentially.

[364] Oh, my goodness.

[365] This is very unfortunate.

[366] And the crowd, by the way, is at this point involved.

[367] They're booing.

[368] So this is just a terrible moment.

[369] And she loses the match.

[370] So this scene kind of reminds me of that.

[371] that incident that we talked about at the Indian Wells Tournament.

[372] I mean...

[373] Yes!

[374] Yes!

[375] Serena by now, she's a different player.

[376] She's won so many titles, but she's still being accused of cheating, of not respecting the game.

[377] Mm -hmm.

[378] Mm -hmm.

[379] And this whole incident, to me, Natalie, just reminds me of this Vogue essay that she wrote, where she announced, among other things, her retirement earlier this summer.

[380] in advance of the U .S. Open.

[381] And Natalie, would you allow me to read a little bit from that, please?

[382] Please do.

[383] All right.

[384] Unlike Venus, who's always been stoic and classy, I've never been one to contain my emotions.

[385] I remember learning to write my alphabet for kindergarten and not doing it perfectly and crying all night.

[386] I was so angry about it.

[387] I'd erase and rewrite that A over and over.

[388] And my mother let me stay up all night while my sisters were in bed, that's always been me. I want to be great.

[389] I want to be perfect.

[390] I know perfect doesn't exist.

[391] But whatever my perfect was, I never wanted to stop until I got it right.

[392] And I think the fig that is so exasperating for her is that she once again is trying to respect the game.

[393] And the idea that you're accusing me of disrespecting the game is just so dishonoring to me because all I'm trying to do is get my cursive right and I can't do it.

[394] She's trying to figure out a way to win by herself and this guy, this umpire who's got his own honor agenda is just like accusing her of doing the opposite and wherever she was on that court that day had to involve Indian Wells in 2001 to me. It had to involve all the times that she has heard that people have been skeptical about all the other times that she had to play her sister.

[395] Okay, Wesley, I think it's finally time to talk about this last Serena Williams' U .S. Open Run.

[396] Oh, my God.

[397] Sports, man. Sports.

[398] There is something alchemical, psychological, historical, historical, personal.

[399] there's a lot of deep stuff happening when you are about to basically change your life and not just privately change your life like you're gonna pack up your desk carry your stuff home and then just never go back to that job you are packing your desk up in like front of millions of people millions of people who have paid a lot of money to see you put your stapler in a box and I don't know what that experience is like but I definitely thought that she was going to pack up the box in one round.

[400] Right, right, that she was going to lose at the very beginning of this tournament.

[401] Yeah, she's going to be dumping drawers out in the first round and, like, going to her car in the parking lot.

[402] And she plays her first round match.

[403] And to everybody's great excitement, she wins her first round match.

[404] I'm just right, and I'm here just being the best that I can.

[405] I mean, I think that we were all prepared to just be satisfied with the one match.

[406] The one match was enough.

[407] I don't know about you, Natalie, but I was a believer.

[408] And then in the second round, she won again.

[409] And there was something about watching her play, especially that third round match that she lost, where she was fighting, what, like five?

[410] match points, like basically almost losing point after point, but just finding a way to stay in that tennis match longer than she probably should have.

[411] I don't know.

[412] I've never seen anybody fight the way she fights.

[413] And we were all everybody, everybody.

[414] I walked on my way home to watch the match.

[415] Every TV I passed had the match on.

[416] I was like, ah!

[417] It's tough.

[418] going on.

[419] But people were watching it.

[420] We were all glued to this story in some way.

[421] Many, many, many of us.

[422] Because we didn't want it to end.

[423] Because I think the announcement, her announcement that she was retiring, it meant that we were going to have to say goodbye to something I don't think we fully appreciate it while we had it.

[424] Okay, unpack that for me. Well, Well, it's only now that you can really begin to appreciate the way the sport has changed in Venus and Serena's wake.

[425] And it also meant that something was going to have to change for us in relation to this sport.

[426] And what I mean by that, and I'm just going to talk about black people here, for a lot of people, professional tennis was Serena and Venus Williams.

[427] Right.

[428] It wasn't all the other players.

[429] It was these two people who invited them to watch this sport and made them understand how it's played, how to keep the score, what the strokes were, what the stakes were from match to match, who made them feel welcome in a sport that they just didn't necessarily feel drawn to in a lot of cases.

[430] and as a lifelong tennis fan watching people in my family who typically would just leave me alone walk over me while I'm lying on the floor watching tennis stop and watch with me because they were playing was huge, huge.

[431] And, you know, I compared her to Muhammad Ali earlier.

[432] I don't make that comparison lightly.

[433] She had to be black in public in a sport that just didn't know what to do with all that blackness and I feel like what we were watching in those three matches were the whole career just laid out for us the fight the proving wrong of doubters the commitment to both herself and her legacy but mostly to the sport to her vocation and there's no way you can tell me that this person who nobody, when she started playing this sport, thought would last as long as she did, who had all of the odds stacked against her over and over and over again.

[434] There's no way you can tell me that that person brought all of that with her through three matches for the last tournament she was ever going to play and lost.

[435] There's no way you can tell me that she didn't also win.

[436] Wesley, thank you so much.

[437] Natalie, it was a pleasure.

[438] Thank you.

[439] We'll be right back.

[440] Here's what else you should know today.

[441] Over the weekend, the Russian military retreated from a key swath of territory in eastern Ukraine.

[442] It is the biggest victory for Ukraine since its military drove the Russians out of the area around Kiev in March.

[443] The conflict, now in its seventh month, had settled into a grinding war of attrition, with both sides defending their territory.

[444] But late last week, Ukraine's army surged forward, eventually pushing the Russians out of the city of Izoum, their key logistical hub in the east.

[445] In order to achieve the stated goals of the special military, military operation to liberate Dombas, a decision was made to regroup the Russian troops stationed in Balakir and Izzyam regions to build up our efforts in the direction of Donetsk.

[446] The Russian Defense Ministry said it had pulled out of the area in a pre -planned move.

[447] But the Times reports that Russian military equipment left there suggests that the Russians had made a hasty retreat.

[448] Pro -Russian bloggers against our forces on this direction.

[449] Pro -Russian bloggers who comment on the war called it the most serious blow to Russian forces since the conflict began.

[450] And it will very serious forergings of the same serious for the same serious for all the time of the war.

[451] Outside experts are now calling it a potential turning point in the war.

[452] Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan, Sydney Harper, Rochelle Bonja, Diana Wynne, Rachel Quester, and Michael Simon Johnson, with help from Luke Vanderplug and Moussadie.

[453] It was edited by John Ketchum, Michael Benoit, and Mark George.

[454] Fact -checked by Susan Lee.

[455] Contains Original Music by Dan Powell, Marion Lazzano, and Chelsea Daniel, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

[456] Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansfirk of Wonderly.

[457] That's it for the Daily.

[458] I'm Sabrina Tavernisi.

[459] See you tomorrow.