Kelly Osbourne

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dax Shepherd.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] Hi there.

[4] How you doing?

[5] I'm doing great.

[6] You're wearing a robe, people should know, over your normal clothes because you got a little cold in here and it's 80 degrees in here.

[7] Got a little chilly.

[8] So I'm a little worried about your iron count.

[9] Oh, but you know I run chilled.

[10] Yeah.

[11] But also you just had your flies.

[12] Do you think maybe your iron's low?

[13] Can we get you on an iron supplement?

[14] Sure.

[15] Okay.

[16] Probably not the time or place in the intro.

[17] It's ironic because I am.

[18] chilly a lot but i'm not chill right well right right yeah two different drastically different categories very mixed very mixed yeah if you put on a dating profile very chill they would think the wrong kind of chill yeah they're gonna be confused when they meet me i guess you'd have to write very chilled yeah very currently chilled an old pal of mine kelly osborne's here today i love kelly as you'll learn we both got on TV roughly at the same time and we're around each other a bunch and it was a ton of fun.

[19] In the same place.

[20] In the same place.

[21] In their home.

[22] Kelly Osborne, of course, is an English television personality, actress, singer, model, and fashion designer.

[23] And she has a new podcast called the Kelly Osborne and Jeff Beecher Show.

[24] The weekly podcast and podcast will feature their dynamic and outrageous personalities and uncensored conversations with a diverse list of celebrity guests and famous friends.

[25] They ran this crazy variety show for years.

[26] Yeah.

[27] And they're regal us with it.

[28] And it sounds insane.

[29] It sounds really fun.

[30] Kind of Howard -esque with their like cast of crazies.

[31] Yeah, cast of interesting creative geniuses.

[32] Yeah.

[33] Please enjoy Kelly Osborne.

[34] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[35] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[36] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[37] He's an odd chance.

[38] So we haven't been doing them in person for over a year.

[39] Am I the first one back?

[40] Second.

[41] Second.

[42] Oh, still in the running.

[43] Still in the top three.

[44] It's so much more fun.

[45] Isn't it weird or the weird things that we get to do again that suddenly feel like you're doing it for the first time?

[46] Oh, yeah.

[47] All over again.

[48] And you're like, this is amazing.

[49] I'm never going to take anything for granted again.

[50] Yeah.

[51] And the next thing, you know, you find yourself a California and complaining about the weather.

[52] Or that the traffic's back Oh my God, it's so bad again I can't believe how long it took me to get here And I only live like three miles away Yes, I know I was like 15 minutes Because I was still in my COVID bubble Of course.

[53] And I was like, and I'll still get there on time Because that's one of my isms is time You're good or bad at being on time Okay I do not like being late It is extremely triggering for me in a way that can spiral my entire world into like a tornado.

[54] And before I know it, I have a sweaty top lip and I'm crying.

[55] And I'm like, my day is ruined.

[56] Because you're late or someone else is late?

[57] Because I'm late.

[58] But if someone else is late, to me, that shows me that you don't respect my time.

[59] I have the exact same thing.

[60] We've had a lot of discussions on our show.

[61] You don't respect my time.

[62] If it's somebody that's late once because they're stuck in traffic or the kid was sick or they have a legitimate reason, I will always be like, okay, that's fine, like no big deal.

[63] But if it's somebody in my life that I work with or that is a friend of mine that is consecutively late every single time I see them, that means you just don't respect my time.

[64] Or you're doing something wrong minimally.

[65] You're not planning enough.

[66] You're not saying that meeting me at this time is as important as whatever else you have over and over and over and over and over and over.

[67] And me and my dad are the same that way.

[68] And it's because my mom is late to everything.

[69] Oh, not everything.

[70] Oh, wow.

[71] There's so much here because Monica and I had a big powwow about me being late about nine months ago or something.

[72] We had a talk.

[73] We had a talk.

[74] Oh, right, and now let's say powwow anymore.

[75] What does powwow mean?

[76] Here's what's silly to me about all these rules is like you can't acknowledge anything that has to do with Native American culture.

[77] Oh, I'm sorry.

[78] I'm totally ignorant to that.

[79] No, I just found out about this.

[80] Is that a Native American word then?

[81] Or a phrase?

[82] Yes, it's a meeting, a powwow, a meeting, everyone circles around and shares ideas.

[83] I don't understand why it's disrespectful.

[84] I don't know that I agree with, you can't say anything outside of your culture.

[85] If it's derogatory, I completely get it.

[86] I'll give you a perfect example of why you need to educate yourself in all of this.

[87] Okay.

[88] I was at dinner recently and we were talking about how you've got to be so careful or you're going to get blacklisted.

[89] And half of the table turned around to me and went, oh my god you cannot say that oh blacklist comes from slavery and I literally just was like oh my god I'm so sorry I had no idea I will never say it again yeah cut to a friend of mine at the table said fuck no I am not taking that that is not where that comes from he got on his phone and he did the research it goes back to like 17th century British history to do with people who were outcast in society I had not nothing to do with racism.

[90] And like, we really went at this table.

[91] We turned it into a debate, and it just goes to show, you can't just take what other people say.

[92] You have to educate yourself.

[93] This happened on this show three weeks ago.

[94] We had an episode where I said master bedroom several times.

[95] And then people wrote in the comments, you can't say master's.

[96] That's about slavery.

[97] I looked it up.

[98] The term master bedroom was invented in 1926 by Sears to put in the Sears catalog.

[99] A hundred years after slavery.

[100] Well, not 100, but at that point, 70 years after slavery.

[101] It has nothing to do with slavery, master bedroom.

[102] But a lot of the people who are doing it and saying these things, I have to be honest with you, are white people.

[103] Oh, of course.

[104] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[105] This is coming from the black community.

[106] This is coming from white guilt.

[107] I totally agree.

[108] And it's this whole thing where, like, I went through that whole thing where I was like, oh, shite.

[109] Like, I'm embarrassed to be me because of everything that I didn't know and I'm so ignorant to all of it and like this year's been the great deprogramming and the great education for a lot of people a lot of people who didn't know what was going on yes I was completely out to lunch I've been racist innumerable times and not even realize it now I'm learning about it I didn't even know what it meant to be unconscious racial bias yeah yeah like I didn't understand all of that and like I keep saying this and people are like you're crazy I'm like no this is the best part of history we're alive in a time when yes it's fucking unconstitutional comfortable.

[110] But change is happening and it's great change.

[111] Yes.

[112] And accountability is finally happening.

[113] At first, I was like, yes, it's justice, but it's not.

[114] Because it'll be justice when everything is fair.

[115] Now it's just about holding people accountable so justice can happen.

[116] I'm so with it.

[117] But I don't think at any point you are obligated to throw away logic, throw away reason, like to say that master bedroom is racist when it's just simply not the case.

[118] Well, then you go back to this is the word.

[119] word master in itself triggering to a community.

[120] So that's the word that they don't like.

[121] I think it's also weird because it's so old -fashioned in England, the master bedroom where the Lord and Lady reside.

[122] So I come at it from a completely different mindset of it where, like in England where it's like classist, where it's like I don't want to be a part of like that past fru -thru -world.

[123] That's not for me. Same.

[124] Totally.

[125] So when that all happened, I'm like everyone's saying what masters, we're going to strike that from the language on a car what operates your brake system is the master cylinder like it has all these applications the word master it does and so is to hear that a part on your car is called a master cylinder going to be triggering again if i heard it from a black person i would be way more receptive but the seven people who wrote comments were white people and then i read this article about how we're not allowed to say woke anymore okay yeah it's always like okay wait can you tell me what The rationale was?

[126] I think, I could be really wrong about this, but I think that it was in Forbes.

[127] Okay.

[128] Which is really odd to me because...

[129] Well, they're the vanguard of progressiveness.

[130] Right.

[131] I don't know if it's them trying to act like they're being a part of this journey for once, or if it's real or what, but...

[132] Or are they being antagonist?

[133] Right.

[134] Are they trying?

[135] No, it didn't read antagonists.

[136] Yeah I'll find it for the bad check Yeah because it was almost like that people are weaponizing the word woke Yes, of course And it's losing its meaning But I think that people are weaponizing the word racist And it's losing its meaning Because when you call everyone racist How do you know who the fuck is racist?

[137] Yeah, yeah, we need a few more words Yeah We interviewed a Latino guest who was saying There's a big difference between racism in your mind versus racism in your heart Racism in your mind is like You grew up in this culture, you don't really know to be questioning what an advantage you have.

[138] That's a mental thing.

[139] Now, in your heart, if you fucking hate Latinos, that's a big issue.

[140] You're not going to overcome his point.

[141] You know what I'm saying?

[142] No. So I think it would be a value to make some distinction between those two things.

[143] Because I think there can be grace and forgiveness in the mental version and not in the heart version.

[144] You feel superior to people.

[145] I don't mind that you get canceled.

[146] Yeah, no. It's so scary right now.

[147] but I'm enjoying the fear of it.

[148] I'm enjoying making mistakes over the past few years because I've learned so much from it.

[149] But that's such a good attitude that a lot of people are not taking on.

[150] And I think that's where we get into a thing like, sure, it's okay to say some people are racist in their mind because of the society they live in, but then they have to make changes.

[151] They can't just say, well, it's just what I did.

[152] You're going to be that forever.

[153] Yeah.

[154] I mean, I have done some really awful things in my life, but the thing that I got the most shit for, was being fat.

[155] Meaning...

[156] Meaning, like, drugs, like terrible behavior, drunken disorderly.

[157] We love all of that.

[158] You know what I'm saying?

[159] Like, all of that, which to me is like far worse than being fat.

[160] It's just, the way that the world sees things is so strange.

[161] But I want to be really clear.

[162] So you got shit for using the word fat or people were attacked you for being...

[163] You're saying fat.

[164] So attack for being fat.

[165] but not attacked for being an addict.

[166] Yeah.

[167] I got more work the more fucked up I was.

[168] Right, right.

[169] Yeah, that's so interesting.

[170] Okay, so let's start at our beginning.

[171] I would like to.

[172] Do you want to?

[173] No, go ahead, go ahead.

[174] So I want to say you're like a year and a half ahead of me, but we both got famous on MTV roughly at the same time, which was really, really fun.

[175] It really was.

[176] And MTV back then was the most fun place you could work on TV.

[177] There was no other network.

[178] work like it.

[179] There was no one doing what they were doing.

[180] Everything was a party.

[181] Everything was a fucking party.

[182] It was the easiest place for me to be an addict, to be a pervert, to be.

[183] It was just a real wonderful.

[184] You could do whatever the, like, me and Jack talk about this all the time.

[185] Like, if we were that age now, I would be in jail for sure.

[186] Yeah, yeah.

[187] Because, like, they'd be, like, making real big examples.

[188] Like, you look at all these young, like, kid rappers now.

[189] and I'm like, shh, pussies.

[190] You know what I mean?

[191] Like, I'm a girl and I was doing worse shit than you.

[192] Well, so this was all happening at the same time.

[193] And your brother's open about being sober, right?

[194] Yeah, 18 years now.

[195] Right, right, right.

[196] And I would have had almost 17 right now.

[197] So he was like, yeah, you're ahead of me, but I had had a few attempts.

[198] So I knew him, and I used to go to meetings at your house.

[199] I remember.

[200] And then I fell in love with both your mother and you in that.

[201] process and I want to know what your memory of this is I would come over for a meeting and I would flirt with you and your mother just shamelessly for about a half hour no he would and he would be like you're going to marry me when you grew up and I would say no I'm not good for you for sticking no I'm not and I'd be like fuck off dad but your mom but your mom wanted it my mom totally wanted yeah Sharon definitely wanted us to get married yes she's like he's so lovely and I'm like Leave me alone, Mom.

[202] I was, like, so awkward and, like, so fucked up on drugs.

[203] So that's what's fun to learn about you today, because I walked into that scenario knowing, obviously your dad had a problem.

[204] And then learning Jack 2 was an addict, and then I was an addict.

[205] But I was like, oh, it escaped her.

[206] Like, she's not in this mix.

[207] No, it did not escape me. It was just that.

[208] You were better at hiding it?

[209] So much better at hiding it.

[210] Yeah.

[211] Until I got to this point where I was like, Uh -huh, nodding out.

[212] Yeah, those are hard to hide.

[213] No, you can't hide out the nods.

[214] Like, I was nodding out, and my mom was like, what the shit is going on.

[215] And wild, too, right?

[216] Because you would imagine if any person on planet Earth would have the best spidey senses about people being fucked up, it'd be your mom.

[217] You would imagine you couldn't possibly get one by your mom.

[218] Basically, long story short, you have to remember, I was like, Mom, look at what Jack's doing.

[219] Look what Jack's doing.

[220] Because Jack got way worse than I was quicker.

[221] Yeah.

[222] But I didn't know that in the long run, I'd end up being the bigger problem.

[223] But back then, I was like, look what he's doing, Mom.

[224] Yeah.

[225] So Jack got sent off to rehab, and he did amazing.

[226] But then at that time, my mom had cancer, then my dad had that bike accident.

[227] And there was so much going on with the reality show and everything that, like, what I was doing, no one was looking at.

[228] Yeah.

[229] Well, this would be a fun exercise.

[230] So my memory of that thing where I would flirt with you in front of your mother.

[231] I'm afraid to ask how old were you She was 20 and I was 27 Okay Yeah Was I 20?

[232] I thought it was 19 No It was at the end of that show I didn't get it was 19 No no but this is 2004 You were born in 84 84 yeah I was 20 I was 20 And I was 27 Yeah Is this normal Also I didn't touch her or grab her No Nothing like that It was always really sweet But look I'm open to the notion That I too was delusional Like I thought that was really fun and I thought it was fun for you.

[233] And every time I would see you on a red carpet or something, I would find you and say my future wife is, yeah.

[234] And it was like this running joke that we had for a really long time.

[235] Yeah.

[236] I could be completely wrong.

[237] No, it always made me giggle.

[238] Okay.

[239] It always did.

[240] I was never like, ooh, that creepy Dax.

[241] Because there's like, the one thing about Dax is there was like not one creepy thing about you.

[242] It's from what I've seen.

[243] Okay, okay, good, good, good.

[244] But this could have been a moment, like a learning moment.

[245] Monica, what do you want to say?

[246] I could find out that I was like, I was one of those guys.

[247] No, you won't.

[248] Okay, good, good, good.

[249] No. If I were in your shoes, I might be like, I don't understand what's happening.

[250] Like, do you like me?

[251] Oh, I totally did.

[252] I thought Kelly was the cutest, most punk rock, fuck you attitude.

[253] Yeah.

[254] This is exactly who I would try to date in high school.

[255] Right.

[256] So then I guess I would be like, well, then why?

[257] No, I thought he was just joking.

[258] Right, this is what I'm saying.

[259] No, I thought you were so adorable.

[260] Yeah.

[261] This is what I'm saying.

[262] That is so funny.

[263] All those years I was like, oh, he's just being nice to me Because I was like so insecure And like a former fat person Like still in my awkward body like No, I thought you were a unicorn Well, you are a unicorn That's so fucking funny But this is a Monica thing Yeah like I would feel like Well he's making these jokes And like okay so I guess I'm not good enough for him to actually ask out Because he's just making these jokes I mean this is my issues And I'm projecting onto you But that's what I would feel If like this person kept coming around And they were joking.

[264] Because we have this friend, mind you, he's married.

[265] But he's in love with Monica.

[266] And he sends me really funny text all the time.

[267] Like, hey, dude, sorry you got surgery.

[268] How's Monica doing?

[269] They're really good.

[270] And they're jokes.

[271] But he sincerely is in love with Monica.

[272] But Monica really thinks it just a bit.

[273] Or some percentage of it is a bit.

[274] But Kelly, it's not a bit.

[275] He's obsessed with her.

[276] He screenshots her Instagram messages, sends them to me. I mean.

[277] as part of a very good running bit.

[278] Anyway.

[279] There's a most committed bit of all time.

[280] The commitment bit.

[281] It's so good.

[282] But did you have a hard time recognizing when guys liked you?

[283] I was so worried about getting my heart broken after I got my heartbroken the first time that I turned into a ruthless bitch with men.

[284] Okay.

[285] I did not care if they liked me. I did not really like them.

[286] They served a purpose.

[287] Sometimes.

[288] And then others not.

[289] And it's something that I do feel really bad about.

[290] Now being in a relationship, which is the complete flip side, where, like, I actually care how what I do affects him.

[291] Uh -huh.

[292] And that's what brought me back after my relapse.

[293] Okay.

[294] So really quick.

[295] Well, before we leave this bubble that we were in, you were 17 when the show started?

[296] Uh, 16.

[297] 16.

[298] Were you in a capsule or were, you?

[299] You couldn't have been.

[300] The weirdest part was, is that you have to remember no one had ever done what we had done.

[301] I know.

[302] You guys invented a genre.

[303] So as we were doing it, we didn't know either.

[304] And we didn't know what they were going to use and what they weren't because they filmed everything.

[305] Yeah.

[306] I had a camera in my bedroom, but not in my bathroom.

[307] The bathroom is the only place.

[308] So they saw when I was up and stuff.

[309] Yeah.

[310] But you got to remember not to like get changed in your room.

[311] Like I got to get changed in my bathroom.

[312] I just threw something over it every time Oh, okay, okay, you could cover it.

[313] Yeah, and now it's, I'm so weirded out by cameras.

[314] I noticed them in places where people never see them as a result of this.

[315] I bet.

[316] It's so strange.

[317] So the first season we filmed, I remember the night before it aired, my mom took us to Venice Beach, went to go see the drum circle, and we were like, did we just make the biggest mistake we've ever made in our lives?

[318] And then the next day, everything changed.

[319] It was enormous.

[320] It was like, Beatlemania except for the Oswald.

[321] Like we had people outside of our house I'd never seen cars parked on the street outside of our house before Like it just wasn't like that I woke up and I looked out the window And it was just cars everywhere And I was like what is all this So then I got like ready like not thinking like Because I didn't think anyone would ever care about me It was a show about my dad And I'm just in the family Of course And thus far when you're traveling through the world For those first 16 years people see your dad You're probably invisible Yeah mostly Mostly invisible unless it's a rock fan who knows my dad's stuff and then they know me But I'd done a few bits on TV from like 12 But not anything substantial if you know what I'm saying Other than when we started doing all the stuff on MTV Yeah And I remember my first thing I did with them was spring break It was like the craziest thing we had ever I had so much fun You did, where was it?

[322] Cancun, MTV's Big Break Oh baby Remember those days?

[323] Oh, of course!

[324] Crazy.

[325] What was...

[326] At that time, were you able to, like, party while you were in?

[327] Okay, so we had security guard with us that my mom sent out, who's also our many.

[328] Okay.

[329] You're legally allowed to drink there at that age.

[330] Are you?

[331] I went to Cancun on spring break when I was in 11th grade, and I just drank at every bar.

[332] I was 16, but no one stopped me. Yeah, I think they just don't stop you.

[333] I think it is 16 in Mexico.

[334] So, anyway, like, we went to this one place.

[335] And I remember it was like, Buster Rhymes' crew, and I can't remember who else's crew were there.

[336] I think it might have been DMX.

[337] Oh, wow.

[338] RIP.

[339] Yeah.

[340] And all of a sudden, it was like the parting of the Red Sea, and then it was like, a huge fight broke out.

[341] A rumble.

[342] And all I remember is getting flipped over someone's shoulder and dragged out of the club.

[343] And then they were like, next club, and we went to this next place.

[344] And it was like, Paris was having a party with me. Nikki at it, and we were just babies.

[345] Wow, yeah.

[346] And it was when, like, people still listen to rock music, and it was, like, nuts.

[347] By the way, have you watched the Paris Hilton documentary?

[348] I have not yet.

[349] I just watched it two nights ago, and it's incredible.

[350] Okay, my favorite part that I've heard about it is that you finally get to see the Paris that I know, if you know what I mean?

[351] Yeah.

[352] She's so smart.

[353] Right, right, right.

[354] And so funny.

[355] But the persona of hate gorge, that is, that's her blanket.

[356] You know what I'm saying?

[357] That's what she had to build to protect herself.

[358] And now you get that insight and you get to understand the person behind the voice.

[359] Well, and what's really telling is they have all this footage from when she was a child.

[360] And the whole family was obsessed with how pretty she was.

[361] And they talked about her all the time.

[362] Her nickname was Star and her family.

[363] And it's like, oh, you very much see that she's being told.

[364] Her value is that she's beautiful.

[365] The grandma wants her to be Marilyn Monroe.

[366] Like, it's all happening, but no one's recognizing it's happening.

[367] Yeah.

[368] And then what at first you learn about this trauma she had, like in high school.

[369] And initially I was kind of like, is this inflated trauma like for the sake of this documentary?

[370] But then there's a huge support group of survivors from these schools where they come kidnap you in the middle of the night.

[371] Like this was like an aggressive outward bound type of thing to reform children.

[372] Oh, wow.

[373] I have a lot of friends that went to that school.

[374] Really?

[375] I do.

[376] Yeah, so she's just 16 or 17 sleeping in her home, and two men she doesn't know come into her room and pick her up and drag her out of the house.

[377] And as she's screaming for her parents, screaming for her parents.

[378] And as she crosses, she sees her parents.

[379] They see and they're crying, but they've orchestrated this whole thing.

[380] No talking.

[381] Take her to this place.

[382] She tries to run away.

[383] She ends up being there for a year, often in confinement, solitary.

[384] Wait, wait, wait, because why?

[385] Because she had been going out and getting in trouble.

[386] It's like away with kids.

[387] But really what it is, is for rich parents who don't know how to be parents.

[388] Or have tried everything through therapy and don't get it.

[389] To be empathetic to them, scared parents who don't know what the fuck would do.

[390] Scared parents, it's not always rich because I do know Kathy and Kathy Hilton is like one of my favorite moms of my friends.

[391] She's like incredible.

[392] I love her.

[393] And I'm not speaking about Paris and all that when I say this.

[394] But generally speaking, the friends of mine who are not Paris that went to this place, their parents were just so wealthy.

[395] And the socialites that kids were brought.

[396] brought up by the nannies and they thought that what they were doing for their kid was sending them away and paying for someone else to make them right.

[397] Yeah, throwing money at the quote problem.

[398] And not actually realizing that part of the problem is that they're not connecting with their own kids.

[399] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[400] So there's a whole survivor community of kids who have gone to these schools and they got, they got physically abused, they got sexually abused.

[401] It's crazy.

[402] A lot of these schools are in Utah.

[403] yes yeah yeah and okay so um i had had my own interactions with her a couple times i found her to be nice and everything but as you learn about somebody and this is what monica always says is like the details of people make them what you're saying you always say the more specific you get actually the more universal it is right the more specific you get weirdly the more universal the story is so it's like yeah so i'm watching this thing and i'm like my god man this girl what an experience what a ride she's been on what a real human being this is did they show any of the TMZ footage of like what it used to be like when her and I would walk into clubs and the things that they would say to us yes yes yes oh did you watch the Brittany one I can't watch it I can't watch it it's so upsetting to me the whole thing to do with Britney is upsetting I can't be one of those people that like makes fun of her videos or I this is somebody who is just trying to find a piece of happiness in a world of fucking hell that she's living in and that she has no control over.

[404] And it wasn't that long ago that I had dinner with her and she is such a sweet girl.

[405] She seems it.

[406] It's so sad.

[407] And she got so upset because my dog tried to bite her.

[408] Uh -oh.

[409] Oh.

[410] Oh, like, no, Polly.

[411] You sit there and you look at somebody and they're just trying to be themselves.

[412] In that dark, the thing I would point out, aside from the paparazzi, which is literally when you watch it with today's eyes, you're like well, it's a salt.

[413] I mean, it's literally assault and it's repeated but even more I don't know subversive is that is her having to go in these interviews at like 19 years old and that some 50 year old guy going well you know I've got to ask are your breasts real?

[414] Are you a virgin?

[415] Are you a virgin?

[416] All of that stuff was said to me to do it so crazy.

[417] I would have these men when I was like 16 years old in these magazines pick apart my body and tell me what I should change so that I could become attractive and or pick apart my body and say that I've had a boob job or I've had a nose job And I've always been like, I'm the most honest bitch I know in this celebrity world in that sense.

[418] Like, if I've done it, I'm going to fucking tell you I did it.

[419] The more skeletons you have in your closet, the deeper everyone's going to dig to get to them.

[420] So it's just like, who cares?

[421] No one's perfect.

[422] Just say it.

[423] I completely agree.

[424] I remember, again, around the same time frame, Colin Farrell.

[425] Ferrell, yeah.

[426] I read an interview with him in Playboy.

[427] They said, do you do drugs?

[428] And he said, well, yeah, this weekend I did probably an eight ball of Coke and six sets of ecstasy and blah, blah, blah.

[429] And I was like, okay, well, there'll never be a big story about him now.

[430] He just completely nullified any people digging.

[431] You know, he's just like, yeah, I fucking love drugs and I do a lot of them on the weekend.

[432] You know.

[433] Yeah.

[434] Yes, it's people that are like hiding shit that, like, people get on the sand and they want to get the truth.

[435] And that's the whole thing with me. And that's why this time around I didn't go down that road.

[436] Okay, so you put together a big uninterrupted stretch of sobriety, right?

[437] A few years?

[438] Yes.

[439] Almost four years.

[440] Yes.

[441] Okay.

[442] Okay, and things were going good.

[443] Did you go to meetings?

[444] Oh, my God, like everything.

[445] Like, I'm secretary.

[446] Oh, wow.

[447] All of it.

[448] Like, I was misprogrammed.

[449] And did it have the profound effect on you that it had on me?

[450] Yes.

[451] Yeah.

[452] I love it.

[453] It was everything to me. Right.

[454] It helped me grow up.

[455] It helped me figure out who I am.

[456] And for me, I got more out of the fellowshiping and being a part of it than I did the steps.

[457] Yes, same, same.

[458] Someone said in a meeting last week.

[459] Look, if it were just the book or just the fellowship, I don't think the book would have kept me sober the last 30 years.

[460] It's the fellowship.

[461] And I totally agree.

[462] So when quarantine happened and the world changed, I started to change too.

[463] And I started to do the online meetings.

[464] I didn't like them.

[465] I'll be really straightforward in the sense.

[466] Like, I do not want to watch you fucking lift weights and sexy face pout into a goddamn Zoom camera.

[467] We're addicts.

[468] We have the biggest fucking, like, like self -doubt slash egos out of anyone, the combination of the two and the juxtaposition is insane.

[469] That's why we're insane.

[470] Yes, yes.

[471] The first part about going to an EA meeting is that you don't have to look at your fucking self.

[472] When you're looking at yourself, so you just see a bunch of egomaniacs pulling sexy face, working out, taking their shirts off.

[473] And it's just like, oh my God, I fucking hate this.

[474] So for a while, I started to get up at five in the morning and do this one in England, because like, that wouldn't go down in England.

[475] That's not how they do with them.

[476] No, it would not go down.

[477] You'd be literally banned from the meeting.

[478] I got nothing out of it.

[479] They made me angry and resentful.

[480] Slowly, but surely I stopped calling my sponsor.

[481] Slowly, but surely I stopped connecting with my girls.

[482] Slowly, but surely one girl relapsed, then another girl relapsed, and then all my friends relapsed, and then I'm just sat here, and I made it all the way through, like the worst part of the lockdown, and I'm still like, I'm sober, I'm great.

[483] Don't know what happened.

[484] Everything started to go fucking amazing.

[485] I'm the girl that when things go incredible and everything is where you think it should be and you suddenly find yourself in what you think happiness is I went oh I'm normal now I'm happy I don't need any of this fucking shit anymore I lasted this whole pandemic without anything and then I was just sat by a pool by myself I saw this girl drinking a glass of champagne and I was like I have one of them sure And I just had one and it was fine And I had a great time And I didn't think anything of it And then a couple weeks went by And I thought I did it then I could do that again Yeah Two weeks later Done Like fucking done Did not last long Like did embarrassing shit Blacked out Like I can't drink the same that I used to It wasn't fun Any pills?

[486] No I didn't go down that road Wow even while drunk Because when you're drunk The game plan goes right out the window, right?

[487] Well, I'm scared because I'm on antidepressants.

[488] And I, like, have been told that if you drink on antidepressants and take anything else, you can die.

[489] Okay, good.

[490] I'm glad you're listening to that.

[491] So I was like, not going to do that.

[492] Don't want to die.

[493] It's not have a little bit of fun.

[494] Yeah, yeah.

[495] So I didn't mess around too far because in my mind I was still in control.

[496] Yes.

[497] It wasn't until I found myself last weekend covered in ranch dressing by my friends pool, sunburnt, looking like a piece of shit, that I was like, maybe I don't have this under control.

[498] And then I went back to, it's weird.

[499] Like, we're in that news stage, it's only five months.

[500] I guess we're a boyfriend and girlfriend, we are.

[501] Yeah.

[502] But, like, whenever we're out and someone is like, is this, and I'm like, I never know what's saying.

[503] How to explain it?

[504] Because it's like, I'm still that, like, girl that I'm waiting for him to say it kind of thing.

[505] But, like, that's just like.

[506] He's probably incredibly proud to be called your boyfriend in public.

[507] He's really awesome.

[508] He's cinematographer?

[509] Yeah.

[510] Okay.

[511] He's really, really fucking awesome.

[512] Yeah.

[513] Okay.

[514] You never know when someone famous has a partner and then they have a title and you wonder, Are they a real cinematographer or they introduce themselves?

[515] Yeah, no, he has a production company called Anti -Matter Media.

[516] I believe it.

[517] I'm just saying sometimes you know, you'll see like an actress and her boyfriend's a producer and you're like, oh.

[518] Oh, produce, okay.

[519] That's a real, that's a very generic.

[520] Producer or entrepreneur means investor.

[521] Investor means, that means con artist.

[522] Yeah.

[523] So, no, yeah, he's really talented and he's one of those guys that can do anything in the sense like he can rebuild a car.

[524] He can build a website.

[525] He can edit and film and light and do the sound.

[526] He can do it all.

[527] You know, my number one thing I'm attracted to is competence.

[528] He's very competent.

[529] Very competent.

[530] When it's even more attractive is that when I'm out of line or, like, not doing something, he's like, what are you doing?

[531] He sees you.

[532] Yeah, he sees me. And, like, it's great.

[533] And it's the healthiest relationship I've ever been in.

[534] Oh, that's wonderful.

[535] Yeah.

[536] So he met you obviously sober.

[537] Yes.

[538] And then you went off the rails a little bit.

[539] Yes.

[540] And what was his...

[541] What did he...

[542] He didn't say anything.

[543] He just gave me a look.

[544] Uh -huh.

[545] And it was while he was working out.

[546] And I was just, like, sat on the couch, watching him work out, drunk.

[547] And he was doing a burpee.

[548] And he turned his head to the side and just looked at me. And I was like, He thinks I'm a piece of shit I go Okay I'm done The next day I was like done I called off my sponsor Everyone made the video posted it Side myself up for a month of therapy Just to put myself back on track again Stay tuned for more Armchair expert If you dare We've all been there Turning to the internet To self -diagnose our inexplicable pains debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[549] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[550] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[551] It's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[552] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[553] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[554] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[555] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[556] What's up, guys?

[557] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[558] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[559] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real.

[560] conversation.

[561] And I don't mean just friends.

[562] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[563] The list goes on.

[564] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[565] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[566] I so relate to a most vulnerable when things are great.

[567] That's the worst part about me. Yeah, I really relate.

[568] Like, I expect to be miserable.

[569] I expect to be uncomfortable.

[570] I don't expect to be happy.

[571] I don't know how to handle it.

[572] And I don't, there's a combination of I don't deserve it.

[573] One.

[574] And then two, I always want more.

[575] So shit feels good and things are good.

[576] I want it to be great.

[577] Now I need to take it to 11.

[578] Yeah.

[579] Whereas if I'm a 5, I'm not thinking like, fuck, let's ramp this 5 up to a 6.

[580] I'm just not in the addicty zone of like, I want more, more, more, more.

[581] Things are great.

[582] This feels good.

[583] I want to feel fucking elation, you know.

[584] So I wanted to fill the elation by adding some alcohol to it and ruining my life for a week.

[585] That's the thing that's so hard to digest.

[586] I had had 16 years when I went out this year, I still believe the fantasy that that takes you to an 11.

[587] That's what's annoying, that I still believe that.

[588] That it's going to like elevate you into a new realm of happiness.

[589] But when all it did was make me realize that I'm still numbing some weird pain that I've not named yet.

[590] I haven't figured out what it is.

[591] So that's why I was like, okay, I'm signing myself up some more therapy and like I'm going to figure this out.

[592] So I'm trying new forms of therapy that I haven't done before.

[593] Like EMDR and somatic therapy and...

[594] What's EMDR?

[595] I don't know.

[596] I'm having my first one tomorrow.

[597] Oh, fun.

[598] Is that like the sound?

[599] Is there like sound?

[600] I've got something to do with sound and like...

[601] It's to deal with trauma.

[602] Uh -huh.

[603] And then I am doing this cognitive brain therapy that teaches you how to retrain your thought.

[604] Yes.

[605] We've had a couple people on experts that have spoken of that and we're both hyper -interesting because Monica and I are both.

[606] Do you have OCD too?

[607] We both have really, really obsessive thoughts.

[608] What was it?

[609] Someone referred to it as...

[610] Chatter?

[611] Chatter, but...

[612] See, I'm on a loop.

[613] I'm on a loop.

[614] Only my closest friends know this about me. I'm going to say this because what else have I got to hide?

[615] Arm cherries are very close friends.

[616] So, basically, when something's in my head, like, let's say someone's pissed me off, I will walk around my apartment going, I'm never speaking to him again.

[617] I'm never going to speak to him again.

[618] I'm never speaking to him again.

[619] Until I'm like, whoa, what are you doing?

[620] Yeah, yeah.

[621] And then have to be like, okay, you've just caught yourself.

[622] And I'm like, oh, shit, my OCD's really kicking off again.

[623] So then I have to go back into the practices for that, which is more meditation and more mindfulness and more like being aware of what's going on and trying to figure out what these stresses are.

[624] And some days I'm up for the challenge.

[625] And it's fun because it's like a game and you're learning more about yourself.

[626] Yeah.

[627] But like last week, there was a day I was like, I am not fucking up for this.

[628] and I'm not getting out of bed and I'm going to sit in bed watching Disney movies all day because I don't want to do anything.

[629] Yeah.

[630] Yeah, it's exhausting.

[631] Yeah.

[632] I'll be in a riff with somebody and then I will obsessively plead my case and I'll anticipate everything they're going to say.

[633] And I will do this.

[634] And you put words in their mouth that they didn't say.

[635] 100%.

[636] And I'll do it for hours with some awareness as well where I go to myself.

[637] I say in my head, you've covered everything on this topic.

[638] You're not going to discover, right?

[639] Like I'm using like three pieces of data.

[640] That happened.

[641] Someone was late, and then they said this, and then they left.

[642] There's three things, and I'm taking those three things and reconfiguring them for hours and hours to make it the worst possible assault against me. See, I had a thing like that yesterday.

[643] Again, I think he's getting mad at me if I keep talking about him.

[644] Well, we had a miscommunication about something.

[645] I said to him, I would really mean a lot to me if you did this, blah, blah, blah, blah, I need this one favor.

[646] It came around to do the favor.

[647] He asked if he didn't have to do it.

[648] And I said, I've never asked you for anything.

[649] And it was the one thing that I asked you for.

[650] But my natural instinct was to be like, don't fucking talk to me and hang up.

[651] He wouldn't let me do that.

[652] Uh -huh.

[653] And we talked about it.

[654] And I realized that I just turned something that was just a slight miscommunication on my part because I didn't really...

[655] State your needs, I bet.

[656] It didn't state my needs.

[657] I just said it means the world to me thinking that he would get that that meant that it was important to me, but that's not how guys think.

[658] Well, that's not how anyone thinks.

[659] No. So, it's true.

[660] So I was just like, fuck.

[661] I was ready to be like mad all day.

[662] And he's like, no, no, no, we're just going to pivot.

[663] Yeah.

[664] And also probably subconscious for you, it is a little bit of a test.

[665] Like, I don't deserve love.

[666] I'm going to casually mention this thing.

[667] And if he loves me the way I hope he does, he'll pick up on that and do that thing I want.

[668] No, that wasn't it.

[669] No. Because I'll do that.

[670] I'll want like, oh, cool.

[671] I've been out of town for four days.

[672] I come home and you're not home.

[673] I make that a thing.

[674] Instead of having said, hey, I'm coming home in four days.

[675] I'd love to see you.

[676] I miss you.

[677] Could you be home?

[678] That would be a responsible, vulnerable thing to do.

[679] Instead, I assume you'll be there and be excited to see and greet me with great fanfare.

[680] And then when you don't, I've concluded you don't love me, but I never asked the person to do the thing.

[681] That's something that I definitely am working on.

[682] Yeah, it's hard.

[683] It's hard.

[684] And I think just owning vulnerability in general is really hard for me. Yeah.

[685] Because I am most comfortable when I am drunk and alone.

[686] Right.

[687] That's where my addict wants me to be by myself, drunk, alone, and miserable.

[688] Because that's what I thought I deserved.

[689] And it's breaking that cycle and breaking those habits and realizing that that's not you.

[690] I also wonder, if we share this, I chose punk rock as an aesthetic and a lifestyle for, a very specific reason, which is I felt like I wasn't going to succeed with the rules that had been established.

[691] I wasn't a jock.

[692] I wasn't this.

[693] I wasn't that.

[694] All from my perception.

[695] So I was going to outwardly reject.

[696] Like, I don't fucking care about your game.

[697] I'm clearly not playing your game.

[698] I have a French braid in or I have this on.

[699] I'm doing everything to tell you I don't even fucking care about y 'all's game.

[700] And that was a way for me to feel confident.

[701] Like, I didn't feel accepted by it, so I wanted to send the biggest fuck you that I'm not playing the game.

[702] I was like, I'm not going to be like you, so I'm going to revolt.

[703] And everything that you say is ugly, I'm going to turn it on its head and make it beautiful.

[704] Yes, and it'll have, which it does have, it'll have the veneer of confidence.

[705] Because other kids in high school are looking at me like, I can't believe you would do that.

[706] I'm getting something from it.

[707] People are looking at me and going, he must be really fucking confident.

[708] But really, I was very insecure, which is why I rejected the whole thing.

[709] I'll give you a perfect example of something I still do.

[710] if someone calls me hey Kelly get up brush your teeth going in the shower I'm like I am a 36 year old woman you do not need to tell me but in my head I never say this and I will purposefully wait an extra two hours to brush my teeth when I want to brush my teeth because someone has told me to brush my teeth I'm like why am I doing that because somebody told me to do what I was already going to do I'm not going to do it now thousand percent and that was how I was and it doesn't be who you to be like that.

[711] No, no, no. In any way.

[712] You're the loser.

[713] Yeah, every fucking time.

[714] But the hardest thing for me is to set boundaries.

[715] And it's because of my fear of ever hurting someone's feelings.

[716] Because it's different from people pleasing.

[717] I know that I come across brash sometimes because I just say what I think.

[718] And I've learned through the program of recovery that I've had to make amends to a lot of people that I didn't even know I hurt their feelings.

[719] Right, yeah.

[720] So now I'm like careful about how I say things, but it didn't end up helping me in the long run.

[721] I lost my boundaries because I spent more time worrying if I was going to hurt people's feelings or not.

[722] Yeah.

[723] Because I learned that I did hurt so many people's feelings.

[724] So now it's learning how to just say no in a politeful way and just sticking to it.

[725] And creating boundaries with people who are boundaryless isn't impossible.

[726] It just means that sometimes you have to love them from a distance for a little bit.

[727] Well, what's interesting is like the packaging that your life came in for us seems so fun.

[728] Like your dad's super crazy and eccentric, he's Ozzy Osbourne.

[729] That was fun.

[730] It was wild.

[731] Yeah.

[732] And so from the outside, you're like, oh, this is fun.

[733] Especially when you're young, I'm like, fuck, I would have loved to grow up in that house.

[734] I would have loved to be able to express myself in any way.

[735] And I would never be more outrageous than my dad was.

[736] And everything would be accepted if I was different and weird.

[737] And then I think I can really glaze over the fact that also you grew up in a house with a attic that was in and out.

[738] That's fucking stressful.

[739] My dad was never in and out.

[740] He was out until he was in.

[741] Right, right.

[742] I'll tell you, he was out until however many years ago it was now that he was in.

[743] They would just switch addictions.

[744] It would be like, Coke, then booze, then pills.

[745] And then we always knew if he went to Lemmy's house.

[746] We were like, what's going on now?

[747] Uh -huh.

[748] And then it would be like Diet Coke if he wasn't doing anything else.

[749] And then it would be working out.

[750] And then it would be, oh my God, you have a can of time.

[751] Yeah.

[752] Like, you're like, Monica, everything you say, Monica's like, oh, yeah, right.

[753] And then it's working out.

[754] And then it's, like, all of these things.

[755] So it was always something.

[756] It wasn't until, I want to say, almost six or seven years ago.

[757] Uh -huh.

[758] He just woke up and was like, I'm done.

[759] Really?

[760] What do you think caused that?

[761] Just getting older?

[762] Like, losing an appetite for the chaos?

[763] Yeah, honestly, I do.

[764] And I think one of his famous lyrics is, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[765] I used to go to bed so high and wide.

[766] And I think they'd eventually just got the best of him.

[767] And he was like, I'm done.

[768] And I think that watching all of us go through it too.

[769] Yeah.

[770] I remember the first time my dad came to me when I was 19.

[771] I did a home detox before they shipped me off to wherever the hell I ended up going.

[772] And as you know, those detoxes are horrible.

[773] Oh, my gosh.

[774] Horrible.

[775] And I was so sick.

[776] And my dad came and sat on the end of my bed and said, is this because you're fat because if it is I'll get you a personal trainer I love you and I was like oh my god dad half of me inside wanted to fucking die and the other half of me was laughing because I was like this is like the last thing I need to hear ever like I can't fucking believe this happening but it was just like because my dad was just trying to help me which was like the worst thing he could have said and then the other other one was when he was coming at me like you need to get so you need to get your shit together and I was like you're fucking one to talk yeah yeah yeah and I said that to him and he was like oh you got me but I can honestly tell you like I never came from a family where I did drugs with with them no yeah right right right no like you'll see some of these families on Instagram and they're all smoking weed together like that never happened in my house yeah I will say that I've learned a lot how to be a drug addicts.

[777] Sure, sure, by osmosis.

[778] Like, I learned tricks, but like...

[779] It wasn't like a family activity.

[780] No, it was not a family activity.

[781] I would steal his drugs.

[782] Yeah.

[783] Well, none of you were all fucked up at the same time, maybe, luckily.

[784] Yeah, we were, but we just didn't talk about that.

[785] Oh, okay, okay.

[786] You know, I had this moment with my dad where I had gotten sober, and then I made amends to him over having stolen pills out of his thing.

[787] He didn't even know about this.

[788] But my dad, it was 27 years sober when he died.

[789] And so I give him this.

[790] long heartfelt amends and he graciously relieves me of my guilt and everything and then like I don't know a week or two goes by and I'm like that motherfucker didn't have it in him to then give me some amends having been an alcoholic my whole childhood and how much he fucked up I was so fucking mad like how could you sit there and receive an amends from your child and take it and then not go you know what man I also owe you and it all came to a head like two years later we got snowed in in northern Michigan it was like a fucking Cohen Brothers thing.

[791] We were snowed into a hotel sharing a room.

[792] And at like midnight, we got in this crazy fight.

[793] And I was like, by the way, thanks for the fucking amends when I was giving you mine.

[794] He goes, I gave you a living amends.

[795] I knew that's what he was going to say.

[796] What's that?

[797] I knew that's what I was going to say.

[798] I was going to say, did he pull the living amends?

[799] Yes.

[800] And I'm like, what a fucking cop out, you fucking fraud.

[801] What a cop out.

[802] Blah, blah, blah.

[803] Living amends is like maybe to say sorry would enlighten them.

[804] on something that would be more painful for them to find out.

[805] It's apologized unless doing so is going to cause more pain or if it's more painful for you.

[806] Like there are some people that want to make an amends to me and I don't want to see them.

[807] I want nothing to do with them because I don't feel resentment towards them.

[808] It's just there's a side of you that will never trust them again.

[809] So you just want them to be happy and you want them to do that.

[810] So you just say, just give me a living amends.

[811] That's all I want.

[812] And that, you know what I'm saying?

[813] Right.

[814] Like just walk the walk.

[815] Like be a sober person.

[816] And there are certain people that I can't contact to apologize to because in doing so, I will hurt them.

[817] Right, right.

[818] They've moved on.

[819] They have families of their own now.

[820] They don't want to hear from me. You've got to recognize if it's just your own selfish thing or you're actually genuinely.

[821] Yeah, yeah.

[822] So he had decided, I guess, that a living amends was sufficient.

[823] And he's like, okay, well, it's not.

[824] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[825] I want an apology.

[826] Yeah, yeah.

[827] See, I don't get hung up on.

[828] the physical word I'm sorry I get hung up on the actions because people can say sorry all day long it's what you do after you say sorry that makes the difference yeah yeah for sure and for me that's what I look for well and again not to bring it back but yeah if you grew up in a house with an addict who's always like yeah I'm sorry yes I'm getting this yes I'm going to do this it doesn't mean shit so so yeah the words mean less and less and you're really only looking for action at a certain point okay now I want to applaud both of us because we met 19 years ago and we've both stayed employed.

[829] Right?

[830] Do you remember everyone used to say to us, everyone used to say to us 15 minutes or this is just that 15 minutes.

[831] I'm like, bitch, this is a long 15 minutes.

[832] Yeah.

[833] It's really long.

[834] I didn't know that 15 minutes could last 20 years.

[835] Wow.

[836] No, it's true though.

[837] I was like reading your Wikipedia and all the different things you've done over the last 20 years and I was like, not fucking easy.

[838] To stay employed.

[839] It's not.

[840] Especially when you're a celebrity's kid.

[841] Because they just want you to be a cliche.

[842] For sure.

[843] Well, that's the story we all like.

[844] Yeah, a celebrity's kid who isn't a supermodel.

[845] Put it that way.

[846] The supermodels they like because they're pretty.

[847] And everybody is like, oh, they're so gorgeous.

[848] And they're just reminding you of probably the parent you already love.

[849] So it's one of those things where, like, when you are different, when you have issues, when you're unique and you don't fit in the mold, it's, really hard to stay employed in this town.

[850] Yeah, and it's also a job of momentum, so it's like one thing leads to another, leads to another, and then...

[851] I took two years off, and I'd never done that before.

[852] And it was the best thing I've ever done because I committed to one straight year of therapy.

[853] I went every day for a year.

[854] So this was like four years ago?

[855] Yeah, and then I did like once a week for the second year, and then stopped really going.

[856] Yeah, sure, sure.

[857] What were fixed?

[858] Some fixed.

[859] Yeah.

[860] I'm so happy.

[861] I finally have an amazing partner and I've got three shows and pre -production and then a fourth coming up and...

[862] Financial security.

[863] All this stuff.

[864] Everything's amazing.

[865] I finally lost all the weight.

[866] And then I'm like, let me fuck it up.

[867] Yeah, of course.

[868] Yeah.

[869] Let's rebuild.

[870] It's fun building.

[871] It's not fun looking over the empire.

[872] Have you gotten to the point And I'm curious, because I know I, for 15 of those last 19 years, lived with an enormous fear that the ride would be over all the time.

[873] You're done.

[874] Me and my brother always say, like, do you remember that show?

[875] Where are they now?

[876] Oh, yeah, yeah, uh -huh.

[877] We looked at each other, and we were like, we will do whatever we have to do to make sure we are never on that show.

[878] Yeah.

[879] And it's something that, like, stuck.

[880] We made this, like, is weird little pack we made with each other.

[881] We're like, we will never be on that show.

[882] my thing was because I'm a pessimist I'm like I know where this all ends it ends with me doing regional commercials where I'm from for ACO hardware going you're not getting punked we have garden hoses three for five dollars and everything would be like this terrible play on whatever thing I had been popular for you may be without a paddle but you won't be without spray paint this weekend in our Memorial Day sale so I've always been planning for those hardware commercials the whole 20 years So I have this whole thing where I know that no matter what happens in this world when it comes to making money I have a great business mind and I can do whatever I need to do to do so Not necessarily in the sexual sense However I will keep that on the table Don't close the door to that Yeah yeah No that door is close But I'm not a job snob I've never been that Like I like working One of the things I'm addicted to is working Like I've had a job since I was 15 Yeah And now I'm 36, almost 37, and fucking sat here like, I don't feel human and whole and like a person unless I'm working every single day on something.

[883] Yeah, yeah, that's problematic.

[884] I know.

[885] See?

[886] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[887] My brother's like, you need to get a hobby.

[888] I'm like, what is my hobby?

[889] This may be too personal of a question.

[890] You can tell me no. I remember you guys signed a huge deal for one of the seasons.

[891] Did the money get split up between you guys?

[892] Yeah.

[893] It did.

[894] Your parents were fair.

[895] It was four ways equally.

[896] No shit.

[897] Anything to do with the Osbournes is four ways equally.

[898] Ah, that's lovely.

[899] And at first it wasn't going to be.

[900] Uh -huh.

[901] But then they saw that the show wasn't the show without all four of us.

[902] Oh, big time.

[903] Yeah, yeah.

[904] So then my mom's like, no, it's four ways equally.

[905] And that's, anything to do with the Osbournes is just Jack, me, my mom and my dad, that's it.

[906] Right.

[907] Yeah.

[908] Do we talk about your sister?

[909] You know, she has a sister that didn't participate, Amy, right?

[910] Yeah.

[911] We don't talk about it.

[912] I don't, we don't talk.

[913] Okay, great.

[914] Oh, you don't talk at all.

[915] Okay, never mind then.

[916] We're just really different.

[917] Yeah, yeah.

[918] She doesn't understand me. I don't understand her.

[919] Wait, I have a quick question.

[920] Nah, about that.

[921] But do you think part of the reason you have this when someone calls you and says, so brush your teeth and wake up and do this?

[922] And you're like, I'm not doing that.

[923] Do you think part of it has to do with you were a kid, but you were successful?

[924] And so there's always this juxtaposition of like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't treat me like a kid.

[925] I'm successful.

[926] No, because.

[927] I was never allowed to believe that when I was a kid.

[928] I got told, who the fuck do you think you are?

[929] You're just someone's kid.

[930] This is 15 minutes.

[931] It's going to be up soon.

[932] Like, they never let me believe I was great.

[933] From my fans, I did.

[934] But the media, like, I would open up these weekly magazines, and it would be like some 45 -year -old man writing about how disgusting and fat I am.

[935] And, like, how spoiled I am.

[936] And, like, I was a baby.

[937] They would never, ever, ever be able to write.

[938] write articles like that today.

[939] Now, no, no, no, no. Can I propose something provocative?

[940] Go on.

[941] First of all, completely wrong that the person did that.

[942] Anyone that's evaluating a child's body is, but I recognize one thing that also we might share, which is, I won't use you as an example.

[943] I'll use Lena Dunham.

[944] So I imagine for some people, if she's nude all the time on her show, she's sending this message that's like, I don't give a fuck, I'm so confident.

[945] So I think people would maybe say things about her that they should not because they think, here's my own example.

[946] Or they think she's giving permission or something?

[947] I get mad at people all the time because no one recognizes that I'm sensitive and that I'm sad and that everything.

[948] Yet I'm broadcasting at all times.

[949] I'm alpha male.

[950] I don't have fucking problems.

[951] I fall off motorcycles.

[952] It doesn't bother me. Like I'm screaming to the world.

[953] I'm invincible.

[954] Yeah.

[955] And I'm a man of all men.

[956] And then I'm really pissed when people think they don't know my feelings are hurt that you were rooting against me. Yeah.

[957] So I'm like sending one message, but it's not necessarily authentic.

[958] So I am wondering, because I can tell you from the outside, I never thought you had any body issues.

[959] One of the things I thought was awesome about you was like that you just seemed so confident and sexy and all these things.

[960] But that's the whole thing.

[961] Like I didn't think there was anything wrong with me. Right.

[962] There wasn't.

[963] Until people started telling me that I was.

[964] And when you hear something enough, you're like, wait, what am I?

[965] Right, am I delusional here?

[966] Is everyone thinking I'm unattractive and I just am missing that?

[967] Yeah, and that literally was almost verbatim was what I thought.

[968] Because I was like, wait, what am I missing here?

[969] I don't get it.

[970] Yeah.

[971] And like, I can't say that, like, I'm a victim of anything other than just the circumstance I was in.

[972] And I think considering everyone in my family did a pretty good job of coming out, okay, it's just in Hollywood they want you to be perfect.

[973] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[974] It is a weird paradox because everyone wants us to grow into a more body positive society and then they took someone that had the thing we want and then they tried really hard to break it.

[975] Yeah, but that was then.

[976] I mean, I do hope we've made some strides.

[977] It's so difficult.

[978] It really is different now.

[979] I've been working a lot with a young artist and they brought me on to advise them and help, you should do this or try and do this because they're all going through what I went through as a kid and their management teams, like, don't know how to advise them.

[980] So their management teams have now come to me and being like, well, what do I do with this?

[981] Where do you see this?

[982] And I was like, oh, no, this is like this.

[983] It's just the modern day version of it.

[984] And you'll never silence people on social media.

[985] I mean, you might get journalists this stuff.

[986] operating those, but I'm sure they're hearing from assholes.

[987] My favorite is like, when people write a comment, now you can see them.

[988] You can see who they are.

[989] Yes.

[990] So someone's like, fucking whore.

[991] You click on their picture and it's like a woman on a poll.

[992] And in their bio, it says, proud mother.

[993] Oh, I, yes.

[994] And you're like, hey, what the?

[995] Like, how does this make sense in any way, shape, or form?

[996] Yeah.

[997] It helps take the sting off a little bit.

[998] But you're like, oh, I feel so sorry for Or when someone's like, you're so fat and ugly, and then you look at their pictures and they actually are larger and unattractive.

[999] You're like, oh, this is about you.

[1000] This is not about me. This is about how you feel but yourself.

[1001] And you know what's interesting?

[1002] It's hard to see it when they do flag a fear you really already have.

[1003] So a lot of times that happens to me, and I'm like, I'm very defensive and my feelings are hurt and I'm thinking about it hours later.

[1004] Other times, like we posted some pictures of us in Hawaii, and several different people were like, oh my God, get a tan.

[1005] like oh my god so white you know whatever and on those things because i'm not like terrified i'm not tan enough like i never that's not one of my insecurities i have many but i don't ever consider how tan i am and i was able to go like oh those people hate not being tan like they personally hate that would scare the fuck out of them to be shirtless in my white state or however bright white i was but i can see it when it's something that i don't ever fear but if they say like fuck your nose is crooked i'm like fuck you your your house is ugly like i don't know what else like i want to defend myself but it is telling what ones i care about which ones i don't like if they call you a whore you don't have a fear that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah couldn't have been further from the truth yeah but like somebody wrote underneath one of my pitches people relapse all the time what makes you so special oh right right yeah and for some reason it triggered me and couldn't help myself but fucking I clapped back and I was like, you are very misinformed and uneducated about what you're talking about.

[1006] It's like that one thing where I'm like, you don't fucking understand any of this.

[1007] But it's my pain.

[1008] It's not her fault.

[1009] She doesn't understand.

[1010] She was just trolling me because she's like a miserable woman who probably has like one tooth.

[1011] Or she loves someone who is an attention whore.

[1012] Or there's somebody in her family who keeps relapsing.

[1013] And she's resentful.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] But you don't need to comment.

[1016] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1017] You can have problems that doesn't give you an excuse to...

[1018] My whole thing is cancel culture should be replaced with council culture.

[1019] And I think that we should start educating people in the right ways to behave rather than to publicly assassinate people.

[1020] Because one thing that I have noticed recently is hardly anybody is the person that they pretend to be on their Instagram and all these causes that they post about that they say that they're involved in...

[1021] They're not.

[1022] Right, right, right.

[1023] So I'm like, are you donated to black charities?

[1024] Are you learning about black history?

[1025] Are you educating yourself?

[1026] Have you read any of the books?

[1027] Have you?

[1028] Like, how to have uncomfortable conversations?

[1029] Like, have you read any of those books?

[1030] Like, none of them.

[1031] I realized, like, they just want to appear to be part of it so that they don't get called out themselves.

[1032] Sure, everyone's scared.

[1033] And in that fear, nothing is getting solved and more evil is being created.

[1034] So I think the cancel culture is actually doing more harm than good.

[1035] it's making people more racist and dividing more and it's turning into tribalism now rather than ever anything close to anything that we could call utopia and I really think that it just boils down to people have to start being accountable for themselves well what I would really hope everyone would do and I try to do this but I'm not great at it when I'm about to write something I do ask myself what is my motive like why am I commenting on this Do I want to appear this way?

[1036] Am I angry because that person wants a lot of attention?

[1037] But I want all the attention.

[1038] Like, I try to run it through a little, like, four -step for me. Like, why am I doing this?

[1039] Exactly.

[1040] And I don't think it would hurt anyone to just ask themselves, what is the real point of this message I'm about to send?

[1041] Is it about that or is it about something else?

[1042] And a big lesson that I learned on this this year is, do you remember when everybody was supposed to put the black?

[1043] Yeah, black out their Instagram.

[1044] Black out their Instagram.

[1045] I got given the wrong information and I was like, shit, okay, I should do this and I put it up and I tagged Black Lives Matter which is what you were not supposed to do and the message was that you don't do that because all the pointing information about Black Lives Matter is getting diluted because everybody's just put up a black screen.

[1046] That was a huge wake -up call for me. I was like, oh, okay, make sure you get every single piece of information before you post because you don't want to be part of the problem you want to be part of the solution.

[1047] In all of our defense, it takes time and energy.

[1048] It takes time.

[1049] And that's why I say I'm excited to be a part of this side of it because I'm learning.

[1050] And once you know something, you can't unknow it.

[1051] Right.

[1052] Okay.

[1053] You want to compete against us.

[1054] You want to take us down.

[1055] So you've created a podcast.

[1056] Yes.

[1057] We understand.

[1058] We understand.

[1059] The Kelly Osborne and Jeff Beecher show is your podcast.

[1060] Tell me about Jeff Beecher.

[1061] Okay.

[1062] So Jeff and I have known each other.

[1063] since I was on tour with my dad when I was a teenager and we stopped off in New York and one of the ladies on the tour was friends with Jonathan Shebben, the food god, who's Kim Kardashian's best friend.

[1064] And she was like, do you want to go out in New York?

[1065] And I was like, yeah.

[1066] And he was like New York's biggest publicist at the time.

[1067] And he took us out and I met Jeff.

[1068] And then we all stayed friends for a while.

[1069] Like, I'm making this story really short.

[1070] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1071] And he went off with Kim, I went off with Jeff.

[1072] And Jeff was a comedian.

[1073] So Jeff ran like all the biggest comedy nights in New York.

[1074] And then he did a traveling tour.

[1075] And then he moved to Vegas.

[1076] But through all these years, this is like 20 year friendship, I do the creative direction for him.

[1077] So like I'll come in and help him put on the show.

[1078] And like hire the acts and put the show together.

[1079] He had something in Vegas, a residency for a long time, right?

[1080] In Vegas.

[1081] And then at the Roosevelt here, we had the theater.

[1082] Yeah.

[1083] A Beech's Madhouse.

[1084] Right.

[1085] It was like a variety.

[1086] It was like a variety show, but the best way I could explain it is it was the studio 54 of our generation slash variety show.

[1087] Uh -huh.

[1088] And it was insane.

[1089] And we had everyone from Mick Jagger to, like, we did like this poll the other day.

[1090] We were like, we think there was only one celebrity at that time that didn't go and that was Tom Cruise.

[1091] Really?

[1092] Like, because we went through the list of like everybody who went.

[1093] Uh -huh.

[1094] Because we have the notes, because we, for insurance reason, have to know where who was at what table.

[1095] and like everything and not the guest list every single time.

[1096] So you guys have been friends forever.

[1097] Forever.

[1098] And you love shooting the shit, I imagine.

[1099] Yes, we do.

[1100] And it's so weird because we've been through so many insane things together.

[1101] And when you deal with the kind of talent we deal with in our show, they're so unpredictable.

[1102] And because everybody that was in our show, we found pretty much on the street.

[1103] No shit.

[1104] I'm not even joking.

[1105] Really?

[1106] Like, you'll learn about it.

[1107] this on the podcast like donnie davis was a cocaine dealer living in his car and dealing drugs in Vegas hotels and we found out about him felt sorry for him and we were like you cannot be doing this anymore uh -huh at first he was like the worst performer in the show but he ended up being the best really yeah and now he's the best and like everybody that is a part of beach's manned house became family and we're bringing everyone back so whether it was like amazon ashley Vicki Vox, we met, like all the different characters that we're in, they're coming back at different points.

[1108] Kind of in the way that like Howard Stern was better than.

[1109] But they're actually our family.

[1110] Yes, of course.

[1111] Like I still talk, like we still talk every day like checking in on everyone, especially during the pandemic to make sure because they made their livelihoods off of like...

[1112] Yeah, did it end because of the pandemic?

[1113] No. No. Way before we got burnt out.

[1114] Like Jeff and I both at different times had nervous breakdowns.

[1115] He started his weight loss journey before I did.

[1116] and then I did mine he's lost like 250 pounds I was gonna I was gonna bring that up yeah he got to a point medically where it was like yeah yeah so when you guys are together what is the topic that you most talk about as right now is him coming to terms with the fact that he needs to stop gambling okay okay he needs to stop gambling but most of the time when you see us together we bicker and have these stories and like talk over each other I talked with him the way I talked talk with Jack.

[1117] Uh -huh.

[1118] Like, he's like a brother, and we have so much fun together.

[1119] And we only did it as a test during quarantine, because we spent so much time together being crazy, because we couldn't be more different, but we share the same isms.

[1120] Uh -huh.

[1121] So that's where our common ground is.

[1122] So we're both very different.

[1123] So we educate each other the whole time, but while simultaneously bickering and bringing up all the insane things that we used to do and go through and our health journey and how we came through the other side of everything.

[1124] But then we do go back to the wild stuff that happened at Beecher's Man. house and the stuff with Donnie, like when Donnie's had a few drinks, Donnie, not to speak on his behalf, has done like really funny things, like sexy text Ryan Philippi.

[1125] And like, we're like, wow, dude.

[1126] And then we have to get, we're like, Ryan, give us the text message.

[1127] He's like, no man, I can't do it to Donnie.

[1128] Donnie's my friend.

[1129] And we're like, give us the text.

[1130] So it's like all that the stuff that goes on that is wild and crazy about our lives.

[1131] But there's also a philanthropic side of it too.

[1132] Like, we're starting a charity to pay for the surgery that Jeff and I had for weight loss for people who can't afford it.

[1133] Okay.

[1134] Because it's so life -changing.

[1135] And it's not a quick fix.

[1136] It's just a gentle lunge in the right direction.

[1137] If you don't do what they tell you to do, you just go right back to where you were.

[1138] Yeah, that's what I've heard about it.

[1139] Initially, it's really, really hard to over -consume calories.

[1140] And then it stops being hard.

[1141] Yeah.

[1142] How long ago did you have that?

[1143] 2018.

[1144] Okay.

[1145] And you love it.

[1146] Best thing I ever did.

[1147] No, it was 2019.

[1148] I had to be sober for over.

[1149] wrote almost two years before they let you do it do it yeah oh yeah because it's such a life change yeah unless you have like strong sobriety behind you you're gonna destroy yourself like end up like possibly dead no teeth destroy yourself because what happens is when you drink after the surgery it relaxes your stomach uh -huh also relaxes your mind and decision making so you will eat more uh -huh or you won't eat anything at all and then you're malnutritioned and you get long arm hair and your teeth fall out and like all of this stuff like and I knew I'd be that girl that was like you know I'm just going to live off champagne for the rest of my life yeah for sure yeah and so I got myself together did the whole process and realized that the number one reason I could never keep the weight off drug free because I just took speed to stay thin before yeah was to fix my head you're doing the exact same thing right you're regulating your internal state yeah something external do i understand it correctly yeah yeah yeah and like drugs too you're like it works and then it's fucking miserable it doesn't work doesn't work so how often do you record it is it weekly it's weekly yeah uh -huh so how many have you done okay so we had like six in the bank but now we have to go back and tweak them all because now they don't make sense i tell you why okay because i think the mind knows you're going to relapse before you physically do it so you start thinking and speaking differently and your opinion's different and you have you're kind of paving the way a little bit yeah and when i listen to it when i go back i was like how did i not see the signs like it was all there yeah so now i'm like no no we're gonna have to redo that guy sorry was it hard to go on instagram to own it no that for me is my insurance policy right that's my accountability yeah because you know it's well as I did.

[1150] I could have said nothing and nobody would have known.

[1151] Right.

[1152] I could have kept going for a real long time and nobody would have known.

[1153] Yeah.

[1154] But I knew how quickly that wasn't going to.

[1155] That's also the great lie we tell ourselves, isn't it?

[1156] That as long as no one knows, we're fine.

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] We always ignore the fact that, no, no, it's us that suffers the worst.

[1159] Like, even if you succeed at fooling everyone, you're miserable.

[1160] Absolutely miserable.

[1161] Oh, God, I hate this thing.

[1162] It's like the worst.

[1163] But I will say the minute I put that out there, I was like, like oh my god i'm free again yeah yeah no no secrets because like there's no secrets i'm free everyone knows i can move on yeah and then that next day back in therapy back in meetings back in doing everything and a little bit more free a little bit less of a shame spiral a little bit more free every single day since and honestly like it's only been a week uh -huh but i feel better than i did six months ago and i was sober six months that's what i have said as well like this last six months most of it's been better than the previous six years.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] On a sobriety front.

[1166] Yeah, because I thought that I got to a place of contentment where I was happy being, but there was still more work that I had to do on myself.

[1167] Well, for me, it was like 16 years was the accomplishment as opposed to a daily reprieve from the madness.

[1168] Yeah, no, that's the whole thing.

[1169] The time became what I obsessed about.

[1170] That's why I said in my message, I've really learned that this is one day at a time.

[1171] Because my time was my badge of, honor and you know those twas in the meetings were like i'm 26 years i'm like well you might as well be one day because you still suck yeah yeah yeah you know what i mean sure yeah that thing became the only way i evaluated my sobriety is like oh i still sober so i don't need to really worry about my content am i you know and that's where i started to fall off but i was i was accumulating resentments was my thing which is so stupid because in the book it's like the number one thing that'll take us out is resentments and i'm like yeah but not me terminal uniqueness yes Yes, yes.

[1172] Well, Kelly, I love you.

[1173] I'm so delighted that we met all those years ago.

[1174] You more a baby than I. I know Monica's upset.

[1175] I was 27 when I was doing that.

[1176] But regardless, maybe even 28.

[1177] Okay, don't.

[1178] Let's just leave it at 20 and 27.

[1179] Well, good thing we didn't get married.

[1180] We probably would have died in some spectacular opioid overdose.

[1181] Yeah, yeah.

[1182] For sure.

[1183] And you also have like every single girl in the world's girl crush as your wife.

[1184] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1185] No, I did.

[1186] I did great.

[1187] Everything worked out lovely.

[1188] Seriously, like, I don't know any girl in my life that isn't like, Kristen Bell is the girl.

[1189] Like, you wish that you were like is her.

[1190] Really?

[1191] Oh, that's wonderful.

[1192] That'll delight her.

[1193] I'm going to tell her that.

[1194] Like, like, every girl I know.

[1195] Because she's funny.

[1196] She's fun.

[1197] She's pretty.

[1198] She's the kind of guy that girls want to hang out with and girls will be like.

[1199] And it's like, she's awesome.

[1200] And she's in Disney movies.

[1201] And Reefer Madness.

[1202] Like, come on.

[1203] You're right.

[1204] You're right.

[1205] Because generally, like, I noticed this with guys.

[1206] There's a lot of actors that girls like the actor and then guys hate that actor because the girls all like him.

[1207] But there's a couple that do it all, like Channing Tatum, dudes like them and women like them.

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] It's almost impossible.

[1210] Anyways, I'm glad I got that point out.

[1211] So, Kelly, I want everyone to check out, and I'm excited to check out, the Kelly Osborne and Jeff Beecher Show.

[1212] And it is available everywhere one would download a podcast, all your preferred platforms that'll be available.

[1213] When does it come out?

[1214] Do we know?

[1215] May the fourth be with you.

[1216] May the fourth.

[1217] Yeah.

[1218] Okay, perfect.

[1219] So may the fourth be with you.

[1220] Please listen to Kelly's new show.

[1221] One thing that I want to say to you is, well, our number one message in this show is what you call freaks, we call family, everybody is welcome.

[1222] Like, if you feel like you don't belong somewhere, you belong with us.

[1223] Like, we have fun.

[1224] We want to be silly.

[1225] Nothing is off limits.

[1226] It's just a place where in today's world where it's so scary to be yourself, you can actually come and listen to people just being themselves.

[1227] and we're going to have lots of audience participation and stuff like that.

[1228] So it's fun.

[1229] That's fun.

[1230] Yeah.

[1231] Thank you so much for having.

[1232] Yes, of course.

[1233] I adore you.

[1234] Going on 20 years.

[1235] All right.

[1236] Love you.

[1237] I love you.

[1238] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1239] And we're live.

[1240] Hello.

[1241] That's all I'm going to tell you I hit record from now on.

[1242] Okay.

[1243] And we're live.

[1244] Live from the mouse house.

[1245] That's right.

[1246] well the mouse apartment soon it will be the mouse house well soon soonish a couple years yeah three four years six or seven years will be the mouse house but for now it's what do you call the little thing that a mouse walks into a little archway hole in the wall you're very very prototypical of the cartoons i think that's their house a hutch mouse hutch oh my gosh hold on this is exciting there's someone at the door i'm going to narrate the whole thing monica places her computer down and then awkwardly sets her headset on the oh and then trips clumsily en route to the door she looks through the peephole is there someone there no one's there a mystery who was the knocker is it a bomb is it a delivery it's a box it's a big size box it looks like the kind of box a helmet i was just going to i was just about say it looks like the size of a helmet box.

[1247] And you said head, that's incredible.

[1248] It looks like the box that Juanath Paltrow's head was in and seven.

[1249] What's in the box?

[1250] John Doe has the upper hand.

[1251] I'm going to open it.

[1252] This is like ASMR.

[1253] It is.

[1254] Good Foley.

[1255] Oh, now she haphazardly guides the scissors scatty wampously across the package, almost getting her hands with every snip.

[1256] Now she delicately opens all four flaps exposing cardboard paper and under all of that.

[1257] Oh my.

[1258] A robe.

[1259] Oh my lord a decadent robe.

[1260] I can't say what this is.

[1261] It's a competitor to our one of our sponsors.

[1262] And then it would feel like a whole it would feel like what do they call that?

[1263] did this on purpose?

[1264] Inserted ad, or what would they call those?

[1265] Infused.

[1266] Product placement.

[1267] Okay, well, I'm so sorry, but none of you are going to get to know what's in there.

[1268] Well, you do know a robe.

[1269] A robe, yeah.

[1270] But it was sent to me. It was from Pepsi.

[1271] I can't say.

[1272] Wow.

[1273] Well, I hope that ASMR portion was enjoyable.

[1274] Yeah.

[1275] Well, I hope it allowed people to put on their imaginary caps and try to envision how you are moving through this space both with the trip over the cord and then the short distance to the door and then peeping through the door hole do you think they could hear my footsteps to the door I think so I hope so you've reached a phase of your career where you get sent random things you realize that you're there it's incredibly lucky I will say this isn't so random there's a reason I received this A specific gift.

[1276] Okay.

[1277] You were vocally supportive of the product somewhere?

[1278] The product is the mother to a Kristen Bell brand.

[1279] Right.

[1280] So I have connects.

[1281] Okay, okay.

[1282] Basically.

[1283] Did you perform any services?

[1284] No, I don't think so.

[1285] Okay.

[1286] I don't.

[1287] Well, I mean, I perform services for the Kristen Bell brand.

[1288] And this is the, as I said, mother.

[1289] Another ship.

[1290] Yeah.

[1291] So they're getting stuff out of it, out of me. Well, here's been my experience with getting free shit.

[1292] It was so exciting for a couple years.

[1293] Like, unbelievable with a dash of guilt.

[1294] Because, like, I'm the last person who deserves free shit.

[1295] Yes, it makes no sense.

[1296] But I love free shit.

[1297] You know, I haven't changed.

[1298] I'm still the kid from Michigan.

[1299] But then there's a finite amount of space in a house.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] And it's just, it's like the Shell Silverstein poem where the girl wouldn't take the trash.

[1302] out it's just it's just accumulating she hordes yeah it's and there's a avalanche of garbage oh my god i'm looking her out yeah it feels like the house is filling with water okay in one of those scenes where someone's stuck in a tank and they're you know they're swimming but the roof is getting the ceiling's getting close they're going to be out of oxygen soon sure that's what it feels like now to me and i'm really grateful for it because what it's made me realize is like i don't really enjoy shit as much as I thought I did.

[1303] It's just stuff.

[1304] It's like it's, it's just stuff.

[1305] Like my, my fantasy of the stuff is what's pleasurable and what I think it represents.

[1306] What's actually pleasurable is feeling like you can have what you want when you want it.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] It has nothing to do with the actual item itself.

[1309] Totally.

[1310] And then once you get all the items, you really recognize, oh, it's not the items.

[1311] Yeah, exactly.

[1312] Yeah, it's this sense of control.

[1313] Would you like me to do a reading?

[1314] Always.

[1315] Messy room.

[1316] We found it.

[1317] By Shell Silverstein.

[1318] And to my knowledge, he's still not canceled.

[1319] So let's read it quick.

[1320] Let's read it real quick before it's canceled.

[1321] Whose ever room this is should be ashamed.

[1322] His underwear is hanging on the lamp.

[1323] His raincoat is there in the overstuffed chair, and the chair is becoming quite mucky and damp.

[1324] His workbook is wedged in the window.

[1325] His sweater has been thrown on the floor.

[1326] His scarf and one ski are beneath the TV And his pants have been carelessly hung on the door His books are all jammed in the closet His vest has been left in the hall A lizard named Ed is asleep in his bed And his smelly old sock has been stuck to the wall Whose ever room this is should be ashamed Donald or Robert or Willie or, huh?

[1327] You say it's mine?

[1328] Oh dear!

[1329] I knew it looked familiar.

[1330] Oh, wow.

[1331] Is that the one?

[1332] It is not.

[1333] It's called messy room.

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] And it's by, self.

[1336] Shelversteen.

[1337] Let me see if I can find.

[1338] Well, can you just at least acknowledge my reading?

[1339] Oh, it was great.

[1340] It was absolutely great.

[1341] It was a dry run.

[1342] But it couldn't be enjoyed by me so much.

[1343] I'll tell you, can I tell you why?

[1344] Yes.

[1345] It's a good reason, Monica.

[1346] Okay.

[1347] So here's what it was.

[1348] I was like, why did I change it from a messy boy to a messy girl?

[1349] Am I a misogynist?

[1350] Is this because I live with messy girls?

[1351] What has happened?

[1352] happened.

[1353] How are we going to explain this after the reading?

[1354] Okay.

[1355] And all that made me think, I don't think I was that wrong.

[1356] So allow me to read you a poem by Shell Silverstein.

[1357] Sarah Cynthia Sylvia Stout would not take the garbage out.

[1358] She scours the pots and scrubs the pans, candies the yams and spice the ham.

[1359] No, candy the yams and spice the hams.

[1360] And though her daddy would scream and shout, she simply would not take the garbage out.

[1361] And so it piled up to the ceiling, coffee grounds, potato peelings, brown bananas, rotten peas, chunks of sour cottage cheese that filled the can and covered the floor, cracked the windows, and blocked the door.

[1362] With bacon, rinds and chicken bones, drippy ends of ice cream cones, prune pits, peach pits, orange peel, gluppy glumps of cold oatmeal, pizza, crust and withered greens and soggy beans and tangerines and crusts of blackburned buttered toast and gristle bits of beefy roast the garbage rolled on down the hall it raised the roof it broke the wall i mean greasy napkins cookie crumbs globs of gooey bubble gums cellophane from green bologna rubbery blueberry macaroni peanut butter caked and dry curdled milk and crusts of pie moldy melons dried up mustard eggshells mixed with lemon custard cold french fries and rancid meat yellow lumps of cream of wheat cream of wheat grandma at last the garbage reached so high that it finally touched the sky and all the neighbors moved away and none of her friends would come to play and finally sarah cynthia stout said okay i'll take the garbage out but then of course it was too late the garbage reached across the state from new york to the golden gate and there in the garbage she did hate and there in the garbage she did hate poor sarah met an awful fate that i cannot right now relate because the hour is much too late but children remember sarah stout and always take the garbage out wow it seems like sell silverstein had an annoyance with his daughter maybe niece um she was a big mess and so he channeled it into art could have been his sister from growing up maybe he just hated women and thought they were messy it's really hard to know maybe i did such a worse job than you reading and i was jumbled and bumbled and stumbled a lot it's a hard poem it's a hard poem yeah i'm a weak reader but i did do a good job that's why i did a great that's what i was waiting for um because these are hard to do and it was a cold read cold read for you but um i'm glad you you did a great fucking job and and i and i you did a great fucking job and and i So did you.

[1363] No, no, no. I did that just less than satisfactory job.

[1364] But we at least cleared up you're not a misogynist.

[1365] Yes.

[1366] That was really hard on me. Yeah, I understand.

[1367] Why would I have remembered it as a girl?

[1368] Well, of course I do, because her name is in it.

[1369] Sarah Cynthia Stout.

[1370] Yeah, Sylvia, Cynthia, Sarah Stout.

[1371] I have one more poem.

[1372] Oh, okay, great.

[1373] Because it just came up and it's lovely.

[1374] It's also by Shell Silverstein.

[1375] Hug a war.

[1376] Oh, I love Hugger War.

[1377] I've never heard it.

[1378] You haven't?

[1379] No, but I like this.

[1380] I just wanted my faves.

[1381] I will not.

[1382] not play at tug -of -war.

[1383] I'd rather play at hug -a -war, where everyone hugs instead of tugs, where everyone giggles and rolls on the rug, where everyone kisses and everyone grins, and everyone grins, and everyone cuddles, and everyone wins.

[1384] I want to say that might have even been on a drawing in my house.

[1385] Really?

[1386] Yeah, my family loves the hug -a -war.

[1387] Oh, my God, I'm going to put it on my house.

[1388] Put it all over your house.

[1389] Put it in the house.

[1390] Put it on the outside of the house.

[1391] Oh, that'd be a fan.

[1392] And I would never do that because of aesthetics.

[1393] are important to me. But do you think that could ever be a fad, like really beautifully writing on your house, like tattooing your house?

[1394] Like graffiti.

[1395] Well, that wouldn't be very lovely.

[1396] Well, I mean, some graffiti is gorgeous.

[1397] It is.

[1398] But I don't want it on my house.

[1399] Too busy.

[1400] But some words could be less than busy.

[1401] All right.

[1402] I'll consider it.

[1403] Kelly.

[1404] In person, Kelly.

[1405] Oh, in person Kelly, Osborne.

[1406] Yes.

[1407] We do talk a little bit about cancel culture.

[1408] We talk about blacklist.

[1409] Yeah.

[1410] The term blacklist was first used in the early 1600s to describe a list of those who were under suspicion and thus not to be trusted.

[1411] When was it invented?

[1412] 1600s.

[1413] Okay.

[1414] After the restoration of the English monarchy brought Charles II of England to the throne in 1660, a list of regicides.

[1415] I don't know what that mean.

[1416] Oh, people who wanted to sign a death warrant for Charles I. Okay, that's regicides.

[1417] That makes sense.

[1418] They want to kill the regals.

[1419] Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, like infanticide.

[1420] Yeah.

[1421] A list of regicides named those to be punished for the execution of his father.

[1422] The state papers of Charles I second said, if any innocent soul to be found in this blacklist, let him not be offended at me. But consider whether some mistaken principle or interest may not have misled him to vote.

[1423] Okay, so this was about his father.

[1424] Okay.

[1425] And I'll see slavery.

[1426] Well, I think you've got a lot of armchair experts out.

[1427] there like hearing a word and then making their best guess at what it means and then getting offended by the conclusion of their best guess I think that's true oh that must have been a list of black people yeah that were for sale as slaves yeah which is a good guess by the way not a terrible guess but not in this case accurate right well like is it all heading to we get rid of the word black no that's actually the opposite well no but black someone decided black listed was racist, which is cuckoo because it was nothing to do with it.

[1428] Yeah, but they're not saying it's racist because the word black is in it.

[1429] They assumed that it meant because the word black was in it.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] I don't think that means anyone's trying to get rid of the word black.

[1432] I think they're trying to get rid of words that marginalize a group.

[1433] But again, that was not true.

[1434] Yeah.

[1435] But Jess and I do have this verbal back and forth about how most things that are, you know, are negative do have the word black associated and like positive things have white association.

[1436] And it's so bizarre how you start seeing it all over the place once you're aware, but like black sheep, go, he came up with so many now that I'm not forget all of them.

[1437] But black, well, black sheep is literal.

[1438] At least that one's literal.

[1439] Like there are some sheep that are born black.

[1440] But why are they the bad ones?

[1441] Well, because all the sheep are white, so they're anomaly or abnormal.

[1442] Yeah.

[1443] Because to be the black sheep, your family doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

[1444] It just means you're different.

[1445] Yeah, but it has a negative connotation.

[1446] It's not a positive thing to be called the black sheep.

[1447] Oh, I hear a lot of people self -proclaim themselves as the black sheep of the family with pride.

[1448] Like, I'm the black sheep of the family.

[1449] They're all liberal and I'm a conservative or whatever.

[1450] But I do agree with you, black is universally bad.

[1451] But again, you've got to decide if that's because of black people or because black represents a lack of light, blindness.

[1452] Yeah, I'm just saying I don't think it's about black people.

[1453] But if everything in society is connected to that and it's negative, there's some psychological things happening in people's brains.

[1454] For sure.

[1455] Okay, so the article she was talking about, we can't say woke anymore.

[1456] She thought it was from Forbes.

[1457] There's actually a lot of articles on this, but she must be talking about The Guardian.

[1458] Okay.

[1459] There's an article called How the Word Woke was weaponized by the right.

[1460] Uh -huh.

[1461] And I think that's what she was talking about.

[1462] So I'm assuming it was that.

[1463] What age are you legally allowed to drink in Cancun?

[1464] 18.

[1465] Oh.

[1466] Mexico is 18.

[1467] Okay.

[1468] Again, I think they might be turning some blind eyes.

[1469] Of course.

[1470] Is that a bad phrase?

[1471] Turning a blind eye.

[1472] I mean, again, some people are blind and can't see.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] Okay, we talked about the Paris Hilton Dock, and I watched it since we recorded this.

[1475] Oh, yeah.

[1476] It's good.

[1477] It's really worth watching.

[1478] It's on YouTube.

[1479] Right.

[1480] It is crazy to see the character she created versus her real persona and how smart she is and savvy.

[1481] And, like, there's just so many interesting things about these.

[1482] powerhouse females and their relationship with men.

[1483] Not all the time, of course, but often.

[1484] I don't know.

[1485] It's almost like, I feel like it's almost like they feel guilty about being successful and they end up dating people who don't respect them or I don't know.

[1486] It's complicated.

[1487] I wonder if it's like their narrative is I don't deserve this.

[1488] And then they find a guy who will confirm that narrative.

[1489] Like, he doesn't think you deserve it.

[1490] either subconsciously?

[1491] Yeah, I guess that's sort of what I'm saying.

[1492] Like, there's guilt around female success.

[1493] Like when you have, I think there's something like, I shouldn't have it or Well, I would say this is what the real catch 22 is for a powerful female is she has to find a guy who's not threatened by her success, right?

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] But potentially implicit in that is maybe the guys that are going to be most accepting of that are more beta.

[1496] And maybe they're not.

[1497] not attracted to betas.

[1498] So it's like they're in a catch 22.

[1499] If they want a certain type of guy, but that certain type of guy is exactly the kind that's going to be threatened by her success and power.

[1500] What does she do?

[1501] Yeah.

[1502] You don't really get to pick who you're attracted to.

[1503] Like, I'm attracted to very industrious, powerful women.

[1504] I can't make myself attracted to people who have decided to sit on a couch the rest of their life.

[1505] But that's the person that would probably be most easy to join my lifestyle.

[1506] Yeah.

[1507] So my choice is to go the other way and then just have way more fights than most people would have, which is fine.

[1508] Like, it's just all a recipe.

[1509] Yeah, yeah.

[1510] I think there must be something a little more, a little deeper because she could find someone maybe not as successful as her, but successful in a way where they feel content and they feel secure.

[1511] Right.

[1512] It's just about security because it doesn't, like, there are plenty of, I think, very secure men who are not like have a billion dollars, but just like know their value and feel secure.

[1513] Yeah.

[1514] Aaron could date her and it wouldn't be an issue.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] Oh, he shouldn't because he's with Ruthie, but.

[1517] No, I'm just saying, but he could.

[1518] Yeah.

[1519] The same way he's never, the fact that I got famous has had no impact on him.

[1520] Right.

[1521] He's never once been like, wait a minute, why is he that and why?

[1522] Like, he doesn't think of it that way.

[1523] No. Which is great.

[1524] I'm just the idiot on a school bus still.

[1525] Although sometimes I wonder because he is so funny and he can do voices and stuff.

[1526] And I do wonder sometimes he's like, shit, I should have done it too.

[1527] Like I should have gone to the groundlings or whatever.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] But I doubt he thinks that.

[1530] But I don't know.

[1531] Sometimes I wonder.

[1532] But the guys, yes, there's a really hard part of the documentary where she has a new boyfriend.

[1533] And I mean, there's so much to unpack.

[1534] One is probably just don't take that person to that situation where you got to work and that person doesn't understand that this isn't your guys' day date to a music festival.

[1535] This is the job.

[1536] Yeah.

[1537] But that's not on her.

[1538] I don't like that that's on her.

[1539] That's on him.

[1540] He knows that she's DJing that day.

[1541] If he can't be there to support her, he wants to make it about himself.

[1542] That is his issue.

[1543] her.

[1544] A hundred percent.

[1545] Yes.

[1546] But what I'm saying is what I learned from that is like if I was dating him and I liked him a lot and that happened at that thing, I would say, look, we're not going to mix this.

[1547] I'm going to go work because you are threatened by that.

[1548] Yeah.

[1549] So you're not coming with me to any of this stuff ever again.

[1550] Yeah.

[1551] If I really liked the person and just that really, again, to give him a little bit of benefit of the doubt, an incredibly heightened crazy life experience that doesn't really happen to most people.

[1552] Or they're with their partner for eight hours and the partner doesn't look at them once but looks at 10 ,000 strangers and takes pictures with them and blah, blah, blah.

[1553] You know, I did not like the guy in the documentary.

[1554] I think he's a turd.

[1555] Yeah.

[1556] But also, he was probably ill -prepared for that.

[1557] He probably didn't talk to himself, but he got drunk in response to it.

[1558] Then he was too drunk.

[1559] I know, but I just think women are expected to do that all the time.

[1560] And no one's looking at her like, man, that's so.

[1561] Like, you're only noticing it because it's a guy playing second fiddle or whatever.

[1562] I do think you're right.

[1563] Societally, it's much more expected that a woman should stand by some powerful whatever man and just be along for the ride.

[1564] We're talking about a concert that Paris DJed.

[1565] It was a really big deal for her.

[1566] It was like a big...

[1567] Hundreds of thousands of people.

[1568] Yes, big career milestone for her in that world.

[1569] And she brought the new boyfriend and he got drunk and was mad at her.

[1570] And it was kind of ruining.

[1571] I didn't like his proximity to her.

[1572] It wasn't great.

[1573] It was bad.

[1574] But again, that's how I would, if I were in that dynamic, that's how it is that guy's problem.

[1575] Yeah.

[1576] So I would make it that guy's problem, which is you can't come with me now.

[1577] Well, she did.

[1578] She cut off his wristbands and said you're going.

[1579] Well, they broke up.

[1580] I mean, that was the last.

[1581] Yeah.

[1582] Yeah.

[1583] But she said you got to go.

[1584] Like, you're leaving now.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] You've ruined this for me. Oh.

[1587] It was so stressful.

[1588] Yeah, she was like crying as they're announcing.

[1589] announcing her name to go on stage.

[1590] I know, and it's supposed to be this moment that she's so excited about.

[1591] Oh, yikes.

[1592] Oh, boy.

[1593] Also, for me, big takeaway did not know this, that Kim Kardashian was Paris Hilton's assistant.

[1594] That's crazy.

[1595] Yeah, I just thought they were bros and that she was, like, started joining her on red carpets.

[1596] Yeah.

[1597] No, she was labeled as her former assistant.

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] It is a funny thing to watch because, you know, they document in there all the, all the pushback and how much she was made fun of for being famous for no reason.

[1600] Yeah.

[1601] And that's a certainly valid point.

[1602] But then at the same time, I'm looking at it going like, well, an entertainer is an entertainer.

[1603] If somebody is providing you with entertainment, whatever people that loved following her life were entertained by that, you know, I don't know how we're defining entertainment.

[1604] Like it's got to fit in this exact box.

[1605] And then above all that, she took not doing anything, quote, not doing anything and turned it into way more money than I ever turned into.

[1606] You know, how much can you make fun of her?

[1607] No, you can't.

[1608] I mean, she has so many businesses that developed after that.

[1609] She works very hard on.

[1610] And so does Kim, so do all the Kardashians, it is very much the same thing where they've built empires off of this idea that like, but they're famous for no reason.

[1611] But actually, again, they're just incredibly savvy and have used it to create these very legitimate businesses.

[1612] Yeah, I mean, she created that genre.

[1613] Yeah, and she feels guilty about it, which is interesting to hear her, like, admit.

[1614] She invented the selfie.

[1615] That's crazy.

[1616] That is so crazy.

[1617] It is.

[1618] Oof.

[1619] Heavy.

[1620] Heavy.

[1621] Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy.

[1622] That is where the ultimate bill comes due is when you're laying in bed and you're like, well, what was the impact of my entertainment?

[1623] Well, and I mean, I hope you can see the full picture, right?

[1624] Like that there's negative sides, but there's also positive.

[1625] She really did create space for people to have this kind of bizarre career that is now, like, you ask kids, what do you want to be when they grow up?

[1626] And a lot of them say influencer.

[1627] That's scary to me. Yeah, me too.

[1628] But also, it's a real job now.

[1629] And it's probably not much different than saying I want to be an actor.

[1630] Yeah.

[1631] I mean, it feels different to me, but it's probably not.

[1632] I know.

[1633] It's the same.

[1634] Hmm.

[1635] Anyway, EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

[1636] It's a form of psychotherapy started in 19888 in which the person being treated is asked to recall distressing images.

[1637] The therapist then directs the patient in one type of bilateral simulation such as side -to -side eye rapid movement or hand tapping.

[1638] I thought it had something to a sound, but that is not true.

[1639] So what you, this is something you would do once you feel triggered to reorient yourself?

[1640] Post -traumatic stress is a big one for it.

[1641] Wait, it says are things already here?

[1642] Oh, maybe they dropped it off.

[1643] Oh, okay.

[1644] Let me just glance.

[1645] Okay.

[1646] Okay, so Dax is getting up and he just tripped.

[1647] and you can hear his footsteps really well.

[1648] There's a delivery and it's not ahead.

[1649] He's really excited.

[1650] Asim -R.

[1651] Sandwiches.

[1652] Those are our sandwiches.

[1653] Jersey mics.

[1654] We love them.

[1655] Again, not an integrated app.

[1656] Integrated app.

[1657] Oh, yeah.

[1658] Not ad integration.

[1659] Just tummy integration.

[1660] So is it like preemptively?

[1661] Or is it a re -centering technique?

[1662] It's recent.

[1663] It's after, after trauma.

[1664] So post -traumatic stress, OCD.

[1665] Ooh.

[1666] Yeah, those are like big ones for it.

[1667] We also watched the Billy Eilish documentary.

[1668] Oh, my God.

[1669] It was good.

[1670] Fuck, I did I love it.

[1671] I also loved her Tourette's moments so much.

[1672] I related so much when I was a kid and I had all those ticks.

[1673] Yeah.

[1674] And I was glad that they showed it.

[1675] Because you know what?

[1676] Like you're probably your biggest fear when you have that is like, oh, I look, whatever.

[1677] And she looked, it was fine.

[1678] Yeah.

[1679] I loved it.

[1680] I mean, she's just a kid.

[1681] She's an insanely talented kid.

[1682] And her brother is off the charts.

[1683] The relationship with her brother and how talented they both are.

[1684] It's just so cool.

[1685] I just kept thinking like, oh, these parents, the amount of pride and fear, so much heightened emotions they must be feeling all the time.

[1686] Yeah, totally.

[1687] Oh, so good.

[1688] It made me a big fan.

[1689] Like, I know her music, but I don't have any of it in my library.

[1690] Yeah, now you do.

[1691] But now I do.

[1692] We got a lot of good docks in.

[1693] I'm on a tear because I'm also midway through the Demi Lovato one.

[1694] I know.

[1695] I called you yesterday on my drive home from Fort Irwin military base and said, I dare you to find a female -driven documentary that I'm not going to fucking love.

[1696] I've yet to see one I didn't love.

[1697] They're great.

[1698] I know.

[1699] It seems like women have the corner of the market.

[1700] I can't think of any, like, I guess Kevin Hart had one.

[1701] That was basically just like, hey, here's my life.

[1702] Sean Mendez had one.

[1703] Oh, you're right.

[1704] Tiger, we loved that.

[1705] But that wasn't from his perspective.

[1706] Right.

[1707] I mean, like, come, let me show you my whole world.

[1708] And it seems like there's way more female ones.

[1709] And I love them.

[1710] So good.

[1711] You think it's like because women have a easier time being vulnerable?

[1712] Yeah, I'm sure that has to do with it.

[1713] Or guys are just boring.

[1714] They're not very communicative.

[1715] So if you followed one around, you'd never actually know what he was thinking.

[1716] He would never really tell you what he was thinking.

[1717] It's probably a mix.

[1718] What emotions he was feeling.

[1719] Maybe the vulnerable boys will make a doc.

[1720] Oh, that's nice.

[1721] That would be great.

[1722] Once we get some hits out there.

[1723] And then Aaron will then start resenting you because then he'll be in a movie.

[1724] Well, but he'll likely.

[1725] be the most likable part of the movie and it'll go his way is my guess just given our history good guess all right that's all for kelly really fun so fun to do it in the attic again happy to be back there really fun and i said it to her in the interview but i i just don't mean it like i feel this neat bond with her having met 19 years ago and that we're both still working i know yeah i think it's cool very very cool i love you love you love you Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1726] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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