The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] That's it.
[1] I was like, my career is over.
[2] I had, like, no confidence or no...
[3] I was, like, a shell of, like, my former self.
[4] You don't often get to hear about the real human implications of cancel culture.
[5] You don't get to hear how it feels for the recipient.
[6] You don't get to see how it plays out in the moment.
[7] My next guest, he can tell you.
[8] Jack Maynard was caught in the middle of a well -known, well -documented, British Council Culture Moment when something that he had said almost 10 years earlier resurfaced while he was at the peak of his powers while he was fulfilling his dream, while he was in the middle of filming I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here a couple of years ago.
[9] And the events that would unfold following that council culture moment would change him forever.
[10] PTSD, anxiety, depression, shame.
[11] He even remarked today that there was a high chance he wasn't going to make it to this podcast because of some of those symptoms.
[12] still remain.
[13] I guess the question is, how do you pick yourself up from something like that?
[14] How do those moments feel?
[15] What actually happens when you're told while you're in the middle of the jungle in Australia filming a show that the outside world has turned against you?
[16] These are the things you can only learn from hearing the truth from someone that's been through those situations.
[17] So without further ado, my name is Stephen Bartlett, and this is the I have a CEO.
[18] I hope nobody's listening.
[19] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
[20] So, Jack, I did a lot of research on you and your background, what you're into, the work you do.
[21] And your sort of professional endeavours are quite eclectic.
[22] You know, it's hard to pin down whether you consider yourself to be a YouTuber now or a DJ or something else.
[23] So I wanted to, despite all the research, I wanted to ask you, like, I'm not a fan of, like, labeling oneself, but how do you, how do you classify yourself now?
[24] I still do describe myself as a YouTube, but like to everyone and me, I kind of say, oh, yeah, you know, I do YouTube and you still, to this day, get a look of like, what do you do, that's your job.
[25] But I think, like, you said, there's kind of a collective of things that I do, and when I kind of break it down to everything I do, they, yeah, like, kind of fully understand now, like, very recently as well.
[26] people have only just started to understand like what it actually is in that YouTube and just social media itself can be obviously a job.
[27] So yeah, I still go for YouTube.
[28] That's my...
[29] You don't post as much as you still on your main channel.
[30] No, mainly because literally at the beginning of last year, I decided right, I want to go kind of bigger productions, a lot of the music videos I've done and things like that.
[31] And I just want to kind of get out there like other...
[32] I'm kind of really want to just get loads of like, celebrities and like reality TV stars on my channel and do loads of fun things in places like, you know, all over the world with them.
[33] And then obviously, kind of COVID came in because I was just at a point where I was so like, honestly, like, sick to death of filming videos at home, like in my flight, you know, I was honestly just beyond board.
[34] And I had so many other things I was doing as well.
[35] Yeah, I think you, I think I saw four videos this year on your channel.
[36] Not many, is it?
[37] considering I was uploading once or twice a week before but yeah like I said I really just kind of couldn't face doing those kind of videos and for me YouTube's always been saying that I enjoy so much and my best videos are honestly the videos I've kind of enjoyed making the most what's the like the people will look at YouTubers especially young kids and they think oh God I'd love to be a YouTuber I think I read a report that said one of the especially in the Western world in the UK one of the jobs that people aspire to, young kids aspire to the most, Gen Zed, is to become a YouTuber.
[38] Yeah.
[39] But I'm sure, and I know because I've spoken to a lot of YouTubers, that there's a lot of adverse side effects of the job.
[40] Yeah, definitely.
[41] I think, well, the first thing is people think it's obviously, like, people do think it's easy.
[42] 100%.
[43] You know, you get to sit around making silly videos in their eyes.
[44] I think if you ask, you know, 100 people, probably 80 of them would probably say, oh, they just kind of sit around.
[45] making like stupid videos they don't see a lot of the stuff kind of that goes into it but it's definitely not easy you know there's no guarantee that you're going to do well on it you've no idea if you do well on it how long that will last and all but you know there's all those kind of things and it's just a lot of pressure because it's not like a cool I know I'm going to do these every week I'm going to get paid like X amount this is going to be my job this can be my career like you're on a salary it's like no you could you know you could put all your time and into it and maybe like money into certain things you're trying to do and if it doesn't pay off it's definitely and the algorithm changes yeah well things are changing on it constantly you've got to really like kind of try and the numbers drop yeah exactly yeah you can have a month where you do really bad or you upload a certain video that you're really proud of and it does really bad and you're just like oh god why is that and then you kind of fall back to your safety now of things that you know maybe we'll do well but you don't want to do those anymore and it's just like a yeah it's very hard and I think it does affect people in like many different ways some people kind of love that and they love the challenge you want to keep on going which is amazing but yeah like said there are people who want to do this one thing which can do incredibly well and then it switches and it suddenly doesn't do well anymore not through any fault of their own but just because youtube have kind of decided yeah we want to see more stuff like this and they can push all that kind of content and yeah people get incredibly bad like mental health from it I think people are very vocal about that now as well which is which is amazing so it's really good but i think yeah especially obviously all youtube is pretty much like self -employed so if you are doing very well and then one minute it drops and that's it i remember frankie kikosa said to me yeah do you know frankie yeah he's from brighton yeah frankie said to me one day i'm sure he won't mind me saying this that um obviously after all the fame he had a fairly young age ex -factor who did a couple of other shows and then the money dried up yeah and he was like well i can't go and work at fucking tesco now because I just like an ego still yeah yeah it's kind of still there in a way I see that with YouTubers a lot I think I think they because they've they've been in the public spotlight and they've built fame yeah you know or notoriety in whatever way they then feel like they they can't go and have a normal life because yeah fame you your family are fairly famous I'd say yeah yeah yeah heard your your grandparent your grandparent your granddad your dad were also singers yeah so my granddad I don't know like too much about it.
[46] So I know my dad, I'm pretty sure did like West End when he was younger.
[47] Kind of like a kid.
[48] But you might still be making that up.
[49] Very low, give me me up.
[50] I have no evidence of this.
[51] I used to be a football player.
[52] But he did that.
[53] And then, yeah, my granddad as well was like a kind of like stage singer and things like that.
[54] So I think that's probably where my brother gets it from.
[55] That's for sure.
[56] And I guess he's had like the most fame out of all of us.
[57] But again, yeah, he kind of started on.
[58] He's the more, you know, traditional, like famous, like pop star, whatever you want to call it, but he kind of, yeah, the same as me started on YouTube.
[59] And he's kind of like back to that now as I was kind of gone full circle.
[60] So he's kind of back on there.
[61] And I was that when, when he, I've got two brothers.
[62] And I know people ask you a lot and I've seen them ask you a million times.
[63] Like, oh, are you jealous of your brother or like whatever?
[64] But how was that when he started to get a little bit more well known?
[65] And you're a younger brother.
[66] Yeah, he's two years older than me. So I've got two older brothers as well, so I can relate.
[67] I can't relate to them being famous.
[68] To be honest, it was there, like, honestly was no jealousy because I think one, I was so young, I was literally still in school, just finishing school, like leaving school.
[69] He was like kind of, yeah, relatively famous, got signed, all of this, so he's doing like really well, great money coming in, like moved to London, all of these things.
[70] So it was just like, so cool for me. It was like so cool to just be around all of that stuff and just experience it all with him.
[71] And it was kind of more, again, like I said, not jealousy, but I like saw, I just sort of, like opportunity there.
[72] I was like, there must be something I can do, even if it's like working for my brother somehow doing something.
[73] God knows what it would have been, but I knew I could have kind of figured something out and just conveniently my brother like basically broke up with his girlfriend.
[74] She moved out and he was like, oh, do you want to come and live in London with me?
[75] I was like, yes.
[76] Yes, obviously.
[77] I wouldn't do that, absolutely.
[78] So I made a deal with my brother because he kind of knew he was like, I was always uming and a -ering about starting youtube and he was like well let's make a deal this was the best deal i kind of like ever made in my life in a way because i'll let you live in london with me rent -free but you have to like you know promise uh you'll make her and put out a youtube video once week every week just like why can you say that to you because i think he like it just needed he needed to like incentive from me that i am like actively like working and i'm at the same time i was still trying to find other work in London but it's like he wanted me to live with him like he did he did he kind of like needed me to live with him in a way but at the same time yeah he didn't want me just living there rent free sure living it up doing nothing so yeah it was like a pretty good deal and very fortunately for me didn't really pinpoint why but yeah my YouTube like took off really really fast after about kind of two months of doing YouTube didn't really need to find a job anymore I was making like more than enough money to kind of carry on and luckily he was like really good friends with people like well and then so was I at this point like Casperley Joe Sugg all of these who were you know OGs OGs and like huge at this time so we all just kind of started filming you know every video like all together as like a big group and then it just like yeah really like blew up from there so the golden days yeah definitely the golden days that's for sure yeah it was everyone talks about those moments like alpha does the same and I know Josh I've met him a few times yeah it's fair to say it was so much easier then like I could sit at home and film some weird game with my friends and get like 3 million views in like a week just off that one video so it was just like now now if I did that it wouldn't yeah wouldn't do the same so this is when I got to the point where I was like right I want to do like something different from all the others I don't want to come up the next YouTube idea.
[79] I kind of want to break ground in terms of, like, TV and YouTube.
[80] TV?
[81] Your first experience on TV, mainstream TV.
[82] Was that one a celebrity?
[83] Yeah.
[84] How did you feel?
[85] You get the phone call?
[86] I didn't think it was going to.
[87] I honestly did not think I was going to get on it whatsoever, but I was like, let's definitely go to that mean, you know, the whole thing of let.
[88] So they can see my face.
[89] And they're like, we'd love to just chat to you about something.
[90] You go and meet them.
[91] Just called me in flight a meeting.
[92] and I don't know what it was that day I remember leaving the meeting thinking either they're just like really nice and good at acting all that went like so well I just like kind of felt like I was on fire that day I got a little bit in there like nothing to lose I was like I'm not going to get it but this will be you know I was more thinking cool maybe next year then the next one then I like will get on if I carry on and do all this kind of stuff was it an audition it wasn't an audition it was just a meeting we met like the the casting people I guess and I know a few of my friends had also met them I think like Casper and stuff had also met them it was like two months I just had the meeting and I never told anyone for some reason like again like I said I just didn't think it was gonna happen and then the boys oh yeah had this like meeting as well and I was like oh well you all went there then so I was like oh god I'm up against like these people I'm definitely I don't think I'm gonna get it then and like oh yeah we got the we got told like a couple of weeks that oh it's not gonna go any further thanks for coming in and I was like oh I haven't got that call.
[93] I didn't say it.
[94] I was thinking I was like, I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened unless my manager hasn't told me or something.
[95] And literally it's like the next day they called, oh, we really want to meet Jack again.
[96] And I think I met them.
[97] I can't really remember the meeting it.
[98] This one was more just sort of like a kind of how it all goes if I do do it.
[99] And literally like the next day, they're like, cool, we want Jack to do it.
[100] Can you do it?
[101] I was like, obviously.
[102] Obviously I can do it.
[103] I was so scared though.
[104] Because I'm actually like terrified of bugs so I was so excited and I was like this is it could you you couldn't tell people for a while right no I couldn't obviously I did but I was just like obviously I was like so scared I was like how the hell is this happened but the one thing I will say I didn't is and this is like bad obviously I did when I knew I was doing it but I never actually really watched the show before obviously I completely knew what it was but I didn't realize how big the show was I didn't realize at that time it was arguably the biggest show like in the country huge yeah between like that kind of strictly and things like they're all like battling it out for number one so yeah I just kind of prepared myself for it all like I said I was I was feeling great going into it I was feeling like really good how much notice did you get between knowing when you were on the show I think I actually knew for like a while I must have known for like a couple of months I remember getting there and people like I found out literally like a couple of weeks ago.
[105] But I was, I knew for like ages.
[106] Like I said, I guess they knew they were getting a YouTuber on like probably at the end of the season before.
[107] They're like, next year we need a YouTube or something.
[108] You fly to Australia.
[109] Yeah, I'd done all my stuff.
[110] I was feeling good.
[111] Flew to Australia and I was the first one to get there.
[112] So I was there for a week.
[113] Like no phone.
[114] And I was an idiot because when I said, I was in the jungle, people were telling me like, oh, do you not just bring another phone and like hide it.
[115] And I was like, obviously I was too scared to do that.
[116] So I was like, oh, no. And they did?
[117] Yeah, everyone did.
[118] Well, all the other guests had phones.
[119] They just had another phone with them somewhere in their suitcase.
[120] So they were just like talking to their friends, I guess, whatever.
[121] Like, no, I didn't know who else was there at the time, but when I was in the camp.
[122] Well, while they were in the jungle?
[123] No, no, no, whilst they were like in the, like, kind of the lockdowny kind of thing before, you were shut in a hotel room for a week and you didn't have a phone.
[124] And you didn't have a phone.
[125] I was a boring time in my life.
[126] And you're like jet lagged as well.
[127] But luckily the lady who was looking after me. I could not leave my room without her being next to me but she was really nice like we got along so well so I was really happy with that and every morning at breakfast she's like oh like you know another one's got here another one's got here and she wouldn't tell me who was but she'd give me clues and then I was like oh it was just annoying me I wonder how my social media is going again because that's just what my thing I was like an everyday thing for me I post like every day do all these things it was so weird not checking it and I was like let's make a deal I kind of deal with you there was no deal on my heart but you know but you do me a favour just don't have to don't see anything can you just go on my Instagram and let me look at like what's been uploaded and let me just see it's going well and I think at the time I was averaging like 40 to like 60 ,000 likes so it was going like pretty well and then she's like yeah but you can't look at the comments or anything so they might be saying who's in there I was like deal and I didn't actually look but I looked to my photos and I was getting like 250 ,000 likes and I was like what?
[128] what and that's when i realized how big the show was like that at that moment i was like oh my god just from being announced yeah like it's just gone crazy and i was thinking you know maybe they're making a bit of uh like it's probably is causing debate like oh this youtube is he a celebrity is he not and i was like welcoming that because i was like just get more people like talking about me gets my name out there more so that's when i was like oh my god this is massive i need to win this i really i was like i need to, I need to win this.
[129] What was your strategy?
[130] Because I've always thought, if I ever got into like a reality TV show, like, how do I not be a prick?
[131] Like, for me, it was just on it, like, to be honest, to be yourself.
[132] At that point, I had like, no anxiety, no stresses.
[133] I was not scared at all.
[134] I wasn't even like, nervous.
[135] Like, nerves never hit me. That was always one of my strengths I found.
[136] So I was just, yeah, I was like, confident, not so much confident I'm going to win, but I was just so confident that, you know, I know I can go in there and come across, like, fine i know i know i won't go on there and be like a horrible person or whatever that's just not who i am so yeah i was confident and when in there first couple of days of filming with everyone just felt like great like so natural i guess i kind of knew what was going on a little bit because we got partnered up straight away and i obviously the youngest i was the youngest person on there but i was the youngest guy and then tuff was the youngest girl and then we got partnered it was like the people at home voted who was together so I just kind of saw where that was like going and it was like cool so they're trying to do that kind of story so you went for it so I think to realize I think she's like a very smart girl didn't ever play a character it was like play the most entertaining version of yourself the whole time I'm just like yeah kind of giving the people what they want and I knew she was doing the same as well like she read into the situation and I remember thinking I was like, oh, it's going to be it sounds really mean for the other people on there but I was like, I have like a feeling maybe it's going to be between like me and her or I think we'll both do like really well if we keep as we're going because it's just like little things like you realize we were just maybe saying the most like kind of jokes between everyone and like we were maybe the most like just having the most like fun with it a lot of people are quite stressed and stuff but we're having like a lot of fun and then yeah obviously it took like a massive turn.
[137] I don't know what you're talking about.
[138] If you don't, that's fine.
[139] I won't, yeah.
[140] You won, congratulations.
[141] No one knows.
[142] So what happened next?
[143] I mean, I don't think I'm allowed to get too into, in terms of like what happened on set, but it is like in terms of...
[144] I won't tell anyone.
[145] So I was there in the morning.
[146] It was like super ready.
[147] I mean, it must have been like 6 a .m. something at 5, 6am and there's like a rule like two people always need to be in the camp at one point and they were calling the you know the voices of God the person on the microphone was like calling people to go and do something like oh you need to go down there and it I realized I was on my own and I was like swear this isn't allowed then I was like well maybe you know we've been in here a few days now they're like loosening up and whatever you know we're all adults here I'm sure I'll be fine type thing and it was like oh jack can you come to like the medical hut i was like oh okay and i had two things on my mind first being i'd like a tick the day before and so i was like oh maybe they're just checking in on that or there's where it's like really depressing i was like oh here we go because they always in the show kind of pull someone to the side they have like kind of like a secret missiony type thing they do in the show there's always someone who has to do something about anyone else knowing is this that or maybe it's that so i was like going there like really like quite excited intrigued and then I went in there it was just like all the producers and stuff and I was like this doesn't look very good I was like what I was taking out with like no explanation whatsoever I had no idea you weren't given an explanation I was not told for like four hours I got taken out and the hotel's like four hours away and pretty much until I got my phone which was the hotel which was that far away I didn't know anything I just said it was like oh something online I was like wow that I was at and narrows it down my whole life's online It says something something on the line So I'm just thinking like Absolute like worst case scenarios Of what could like possibly happen to A young guy on TV Because I was thinking all kinds of things Like it's weird Like you're sitting there thinking of things I know I've never done in my life But I'm like oh god Someone could have said something Yeah someone said something or made something up Or I don't know You're just thinking the worst And you're panicking and then I mean it was like the weirdest You get back to your phone Yeah, I get back to the hotel room, finally, and I get my phone, and my phone's, like, so crazy.
[148] And then, well, I think, like, the next day I realized, they'd actually, like, announced me being taken out before they took me out.
[149] So, like, I mean, yeah, everyone knew why I'd left, but I didn't.
[150] So I was seeing things my phone.
[151] I was like, what there?
[152] It was just like, oh, you know, I hope you're okay.
[153] Like, I can't believe this and all that.
[154] And I'm like, oh, my God.
[155] I don't know what to do.
[156] I don't want to look at it.
[157] I'm like kind of saying in my eyes closed, like my phone's man. I don't know what to do.
[158] I've got two calls I need to make here.
[159] I've got a call from my brother and then like a thousand from my manager.
[160] So I call my manager and it's like my manager, lawyers, the CEO of my manager, There's everyone of any importance in my life is on that call.
[161] And yeah, just find out, you know, this is something that's been going on for like nearly a week in the papers and stuff of like tweets and everything like this and obviously I'm in there I don't have a phone so I have no control I can't say anything how are you feeling then I was like crying I was like all I was like all over the place I was just so frustrated that's what it was I was like so frustrated and like angry why I don't know I just felt this could have all some they were sitting on the like they were sitting on this for a while these tweets and stuff.
[162] I just don't know it because it was deleted long before I went on the show, about a year before I even went on the show, they didn't exist anymore.
[163] It was, they were awful.
[164] They were stupid.
[165] So I kind of got rid of them when I was kind of coming up on YouTube.
[166] I was like, when the first thing my management made me do, they're like, cool, let's go through everything and leave anything you've said that is just idiotic.
[167] And I was like, we should definitely, definitely do that.
[168] So I knew I'd had Twitter since I was like 15, 14 or something it didn't have to get to the point where I was taken out to then have to address it all I wish I could have before I even went on or after or just after kind of yeah like stuck with it and kind of adds more drama to it let the yeah it just made it look worse they said oh Jack wanted to leave and address it and I do feel like I did need to address it as soon as possible don't get me wrong but I mean yeah I didn't say yeah I should I should leave here and and address these things so it was just frustrating and yeah so I spoke to my mind when we kind of went over everything and like what happens now and it's like do you want us to come Australia?
[169] No I was like I just want to come home then because I was like although I knew I'd done like bad things how it was all handled I had like hatred at that point at that moment in time anyway for the people that were involved in the show that were like near me. I said, I was so frustrated, so I was like, I don't want to be here.
[170] No way.
[171] I want to come home then.
[172] If this is it and this is done, then I'm coming home.
[173] What is the point of me being here?
[174] Like, yeah, I might as well come home.
[175] So, oh, that was arranged.
[176] I was actually a flight in like three hours or something.
[177] So I just like legged it.
[178] So yeah, poor.
[179] But yeah, again, I hadn't like looked at my phone.
[180] I hadn't like looked at anything.
[181] Hadn't like open WhatsApp, Twitter, Instagram, like nothing.
[182] I still don't really know the extent of what's happened and then I called my brother he was like speechless as well but he could but again like he kind of been I say this has been going on for a week so he's been on the phone type my management and stuff for like you know days and days and days going through all of this kind of trying to help I don't know I don't know really what they were asking him or how we could kind of help but they were like you know I don't reach out to you don't say anything don't comment on anything don't do any of these things and he was like trying to help in whatever way he could Did you worry that it might have an impact on him?
[183] Yeah, when I spoke to him, that was kind of one of my first thoughts, to be honest.
[184] I felt like I just, like, I fucked it for everyone.
[185] Like I said, at this point I didn't really know, and then we were talking about it.
[186] He felt like, you know, this is my time to shine and all of this.
[187] It could have been, like, life -changing if I'd have, like, God, let's say I went on one.
[188] Could have been, yeah, life -changing.
[189] It was, but not in the right way.
[190] And then he was like, have you looked online?
[191] or anything and I was like no I don't want to I was like scared and he was like I think you should like have a look I was like why he's like look just hang up have a look online and stuff go on Twitter so it did when I went online on Twitter to be honest all I saw was like support for me because it was a thing of everyone knew what I said was very stupid very naive with me like really bad but you know people also knew what I was going to say people have kind of been there themselves people understood that okay yeah he was like a kid at the time I was actually like still in school when these things that happened it was before I had any kind of like following I didn't want you know the jack of today to be you know known as the jack of like when I was 15 I fully understand this is like one of the conversations I had with my mum I like accept when I was like 15 16 or whatever I wasn't a very nice like kid I was pretty like bad I was like I'd kind of a naughty kid, I guess.
[192] So people, like, understood that.
[193] You're an idiot.
[194] But at the same time, we feel kind of, like, sorry that this has come back to, like, bite me on the ass, you know, like seven years later or something.
[195] In that moment, when you go online and you see everybody, like, the world, you know, it must feel like the world is ending to some degree.
[196] Yeah.
[197] What are your thoughts about your future in that moment?
[198] And, like, I thought that was it.
[199] I was like, my, that's it.
[200] I was like, my career is, over.
[201] But I also wasn't thinking, oh, what am I going to do?
[202] But I was just like, I don't care about what I'm going to do now.
[203] But I reckon that's it.
[204] But then also when I saw online and like the amount of support was, I mean, it was like ridiculous.
[205] It's like trending number one and like Twitter and all of these things.
[206] It was just like huge in the amount of celebrities that were like in my corner or whatever you want to say.
[207] It was like very overwhelming.
[208] The weirdest one I saw was like Casey Hopkins.
[209] I was like, she was like oh don't worry jack you're an angel compared to me because obviously she was on the show and like nothing ever i was like that's not the person like yeah i don't want i don't behind you there's like don't trump and katie hoppin then it was like everyone was just very divided i think it was a to sum it up you know i apologize at loads of times on tv and my youtube channel in like newspapers and everything what's the silver lining oh my god i like to think i probably actually won't go anything won't go through anything as bad as that ever again like the toll it kind of took on me like my mental health and everything but that didn't kind of come until like a year after because i think like i said although i was very upset and everything i kind of rushed it all under the rug type thing and just put on like a happy face like oh you know whatever kind of time to go on with it but me it was like i've definitely learn a lot from this like i know now what is and like absolutely isn't like acceptable and how to like deal with those things and like move forward and just how to face horrendous situations like that and like said hold my hand up and fully take like the blame obviously but it was just like yeah PTSD I think I read that somewhere yeah so it was like um so did you have PTSD I think I read that somewhere yeah so it was like um so like said I wasn't facing it for ages and then like a year later or like 18 months later yeah just started feeling like awful like really anxious like all the time and like just super like depressed but at the time I didn't know it was that I just felt really weird I was like what the hell is wrong with me didn't even like go for like dinner with my friends about like wanting to like desperately even like feeling like so uncomfortable like I could like my safe place was like at my home I just wanted to be at home, became like a bit of an introvert, so I didn't want to do anything.
[210] It massively affected my work in terms of I just couldn't face going to any kind of like meetings or anything, doing any kind of work.
[211] It would like for me to do that, I'd literally have to like, it was like going through hell just to do, like, just to go to like a meeting or something.
[212] I had no idea what it was.
[213] And I was very quiet about it.
[214] I never like spoke to anyone, which was obviously making it worse.
[215] And then, how did it feel, though, in terms of It was, like, it felt like a lack of motivation.
[216] Yeah, it was just like, I didn't want to do anything.
[217] I didn't want to have to face doing those things.
[218] Basically, now, looking back on it, I had like a complete loss of confidence.
[219] I kind of felt like, oh, it wasn't good enough to do any of these things.
[220] I was like a shell of, like, my former self.
[221] Like I said before, I had, like, nothing.
[222] I was so excited to do that show.
[223] I was kind of going in there to win it and everything, whereas now, at that point, if they asked me, oh, my God, even if I hadn't been on it type thing before, by still felt the same if they asked me, I'd probably have to be like, I don't think I can do it, because I don't think I'd have had it in me to to kind of push through.
[224] And then, yeah, eventually my friends kind of clocked on, like, okay, something's really wrong.
[225] And I think they kind of knew it was my brother's been through it before, like really badly before me. It was like him and a few others, and they just kind of like, yeah, like, oh, sat me down.
[226] And yeah, it's kind of like opened up to everyone.
[227] What did they notice?
[228] I was just like not myself.
[229] Like I said, I was, like, one of the, of the one of the main ones i remember is my friend josh's birthday and i had this thing of like because i knew i would always want to like not go and leave these like events or dinners or whatever i'd go early it's like 20 minutes early so i could kind of get there they sit at the table and just like calm down type thing is essentially like i was having like an anxiety at pretty much like once i got there when i was on the way so i'd get there and like kind of get past it and then like get on with my night type thing and hopefully feel a bit better but most of the time I'd get there and I'd leave before and I'd just text and some weird excuse oh I've got to do this oh this has come up sorry I've got to go home or I'd pretend like I never went I'm just not feeling great not going to come so they were just like what the hell is going on like and jack do jungle yeah oh no like no way I was like the life of the party in a way kind of thing I was up for doing everything and anything you could like couldn't stop me type thing but take me back to the intervention you said your friends had like yes you yeah yeah so i you know kind of explained it to all of then again i still kept it like pretty close friends and my manager because she needed to understand i didn't want to have to keep lying basically i don't know she i think because she's been in the industry i think she probably knew what it was as well it's very common and this is what I realized when I spoke to my friends because they were just like basically yeah like you know it's very like normal everyone like has it because at the time I said I knew my brother had it before what's it just like anxiety like depression like everything but I didn't yeah I just didn't want to accept those things I didn't understand I hadn't really done any research I didn't really understand when I spoke to my friends and then yeah understood what it was and although everyone's is very different from different things and it's caused by different things like different triggers or whatever it's also like very much the same people deal with it in different ways of course but it is it's like the same like feeling and like overwhelming feeling and stuff so when they kind of explain that you know they've all had it and my brother was like really good with it because I said he he'd had that anxiety like really bad and he still like he still does I still do I don't you don't just disappear but you learn to deal with it and yeah just having that conversation it's like clichés it sounds just talking to people about it made me feel so much better like unexplainably better so and then yeah and then there was just like kind of a gap between of like nothing just kind of same old probably doing a bit more work but at the same time still wasn't feeling great but I think it'd kind of like calm down a bit and I'd figure out little ways to deal with it And then, yeah, S -A -S.
[230] Tell me about that.
[231] That wanted me. That was like...
[232] Which channel's that?
[233] Channel 4.
[234] Channel 4 call you and they say, Jack...
[235] You're up.
[236] S -A -S.
[237] I hadn't done any TV since...
[238] When you find out, how'd you feel?
[239] I was, like, terrified.
[240] But I think I would have it anyway, because, like, S -A -S -as -as -a -crazy.
[241] That's like the craziest show.
[242] I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd probably say it's the hardest show.
[243] there is it should be as well it is the hardest show there is to do so I remember thinking like why do I always get these like really hard shows why can't I just go on like celeb juice or something like that so I'm going to sit there for the evening but I was like okay what the hell am I going to do here because I just know in the back of my head I'm saying yes all these things I'm just like do it I'm like yes why not and you know they explained it to me as you know they were pretty black and white about it like he's one this to be like his big TV comeback and all of this and I knew that was going to be a massive part of my storyline.
[244] I was like, oh God, because I know I'm going to say yes to do this and I'm going to want to not do it.
[245] I don't want to do it, but you can't turn down something like this.
[246] You can't turn down to show that big.
[247] So obviously I've said yes and I'm going through with it.
[248] And then, yeah, it kind of gets to the point where like my anxiety and everything.
[249] everything and like my panic is like I mean the worst it's ever been I didn't even want to leave my house and just yeah straight away my manager's like I think it's time to see a therapist where was this in terms of the run up to the show um where it got the worst it's ever been I'd say like two months before the show started yeah it's filmed in like November okay it was like yeah probably like Septemberish it was like so bad so I was like yeah I think you're right I probably should I've never been to therapist for so i was anxious about that in itself which was really weird like speaking tone and feeling like you want to like you want to like die in this room because it's just so yeah i don't don't even know like what i was thinking at the time to be honest with you but it was just horrible so yeah think therapist like three four times a week doing all this just trying to like figure it out before on the show and then she's just like yeah it sounds like you've got like PTSD basically and I was like what?
[250] I was like when I hear that I just think of like the army pretty much I was like yeah I think that's like quite dramatic I was like I don't even feel like qualified to be labels or something like that because I'm not getting like shot at somewhere like yeah yeah how then she just yeah like explained it to me and one of my like worst things was basically it made me feel like physically ill like I always feel like I'd want to leave because it made me feel like like throw up or something like there and then I felt like I was like holding it but it was like yeah really really bad like I can't imagine like how bad it was and then the best thing that she did was she went this book it was called the idiot brain and it explains how your body reacts to the feeling of anxiety and like depression and like you know the whole fight or flight type thing and it basically just completely broke it down as to why I feel everything I do whilst it's happening and that like again like I said when I spoke to my friends it made me feel like oh just that one thing it was like the biggest way and that was it was the same kind of thing I was like now I understand why these things are happening and it's not like what was the key thing you took from that book in terms of just like a basic principle it was honestly the like the science behind it yeah it explain like the signals like your brain sending out to like your stomach and stuff because it's like it's a you're in a sense of panic it's like imagine you walk across the street you're about to get hit by car and you had loads of adrenaline type thing after, just like that.
[251] So it's a massive sense of panic and your body wants to like get out of a something, get away from a situation.
[252] They use examples from like the caveman times it's like your body, it's like sensing danger that there is none.
[253] This has got a whole problem with it.
[254] Like nothing's really happening.
[255] You're just scared of nothing.
[256] You know, usually you do kind of get through it and you're kind of fine.
[257] It's like past memories relating into trauma situations, right?
[258] Yeah.
[259] So it's just like, Yeah, pretty much just like a, that's why it was like a PTSD thing for me because I felt in a similar situation as when like the whole I'm a celebrity thing happened really.
[260] Like I said at the time, I didn't even know if it was that, but when she kind of broke it down to me, when do you think it all started?
[261] And it just made so much sense for it to be because of that.
[262] Like it was all around work in like certain situations that all similar to to then because I'd kind of go to, you know, say an event.
[263] And I just, yeah, you'd feel like I'm known as the kid.
[264] You got kicked off.
[265] I'm a slave.
[266] Anywhere I'd go, that would always, you know, people would always be kind of talking about it.
[267] Like, honestly, before then, I probably would not have been able to do this.
[268] And, like, there's a high chance I'd have, like, cancelled.
[269] Last minute.
[270] Like, last minute.
[271] Because I'd be like, oh, I can do it.
[272] I can do it.
[273] And then it would come to the time.
[274] And I'd be like, no way.
[275] I can't even, like, get in the car and drive here.
[276] But it was just, yeah, and it would explain why, yeah, your body is literally feeling that way.
[277] and it just because it was like, oh, it makes you feel incredibly nauseous and stuff because your body is like scared and sent to endanger and think you need to escape a situation.
[278] So it like, your body, like the last thing your body's worried about is like digesting something.
[279] So I always had the thing of as I was like, I never wanted to eat when I was anxious.
[280] Because you're in flight and fire mode.
[281] I would not be thinking about eating.
[282] I wouldn't even get hungry though.
[283] Yeah.
[284] But I would just not eat anything like the whole day.
[285] I had lost like loads of weight from it as well.
[286] One of the most important quotes, I read in the book Lost Connections was as a society we used to think that like mental health disorders like PTSD and anxiety depression were a consequence of like something broken in you.
[287] Yeah.
[288] But in fact, everything you've described goes back 10 ,000 years to like Savannah and Africa a lines running at me. I'm like, I need my body to get ready for me to leg it.
[289] And so there's nothing, the human body is working perfectly fine.
[290] In fact, the most of the more important question is like what's happened to you?
[291] And like cause it.
[292] Yeah.
[293] And that's, And that's where my perspective on mental health disorders shifted because I didn't believe that when I looked at the data and there's this huge rise in mental health disorders.
[294] Yeah.
[295] And I know that like human beings aren't evolving anymore.
[296] We're not changing anymore.
[297] So you think, okay, if there's a rise in the data, what has changed to cause that?
[298] And then you think, okay, well, the only thing that's really fundamentally changed is the world we live in, you start looking at the world we live in.
[299] And you say, how is that changed?
[300] You say, well, you know, 15 years ago, the average American would say they had three people they could turn to in a time of crisis, they now said they have zero.
[301] We're now living in these white walls, alone, tapping screens, we're not speaking to friends.
[302] And all of these factors which are conducive with positive mental health have now being slowly torn away.
[303] I mean, the lockdown is a great example of like extreme.
[304] And then there was a study which I talk about in my book where if you get an animal and you put it in a cage and you take away any companionship, you take away all other animals of its type, and you take away the ability for it to exercise and you take away anything that might give it stimulation and then you give it the choice of drinking heroin water or normal water they all become drug addicts and uh if you if you reintroduce like a running wheel and another rat for it to be with it doesn't it doesn't become a drug addict it doesn't choose the heroin water and so what you're describing is like the same as all of the guests that have sat here with me is there's there's this key moment which has caused trauma and that's um and i think that's really empowering for people to know that yeah you know it's not It's something that's happened, right?
[305] And you can address it from that perspective as opposed to just throwing drugs at it, thinking that something's broken.
[306] Yeah.
[307] But tell me about the therapy process, because I've not had therapy before, but I've always been intrigued by it.
[308] At my company, we had a therapist for all of our team members.
[309] Yeah.
[310] And I would definitely have therapy.
[311] I think I probably should.
[312] But how was that process and did it help?
[313] Um, it was like, it was strange.
[314] It made, it did make me feel a lot better.
[315] Like I said, for me, I think this is, just who I am.
[316] I think some people love talking about things and just getting it off their chest and it helped them that way.
[317] For me, it was just the understanding.
[318] Once I understood it and then like I said, I figured out ways to kind of deal with it as well.
[319] I don't think it ever goes away if you just figure out ways to deal with it.
[320] I think if I'd got an Uber here, I'd have probably actually been like more nervous.
[321] I don't think I wouldn't have like canceled, but I'm not at that level, but I would have still probably been a bit more like, I don't know.
[322] I think so you're not doing it.
[323] For me, I love being like distracted.
[324] So I'd always like TikTok for instance is like the perfect app for that I always found because it was like it's really quick and it's like funny and it would always like kind of put, it was always just really funny.
[325] It kind of put me in a good mood and it's like really quick.
[326] So if I was in an Uber I'd try and do something like that or watch some like YouTube videos and just keep my mind off kind of what I'm going to do.
[327] And chat before wouldn't have that position.
[328] Yeah, no way.
[329] I'd have been honestly when my brother would like talk about like his anxiety season like when he'd feel weird I wouldn't want to come do anything I'd like be like what are you talking about like it just get over it come on you'll be fine that was like the classic thing like oh come on you'll be fine like what could possibly go wrong but in his mind he's like listing all the things that can go wrong just you think of the worst case scenario pretty much so um yeah once I kind of understood it a lot more and had my reasons uh like which helped me kind of get over it bit.
[330] I then did kind of stop seeing her.
[331] This was all very close to like the show.
[332] The show.
[333] I kind of stopped once the show started for instance.
[334] I haven't been back since because I think like I will happily say that like at doing SAS like saved me somehow.
[335] It gave me like a new lease of life.
[336] Not like I said, not saying it's gone away by any means but I'd just a thing there of thinking, I mean, if I can do this and this being at like 6 o 'clock in the morning, jumping out of a helicopter backwards into literally like freezing cold water in the middle of winter in Scotland, I can definitely go and do a podcast or something like that.
[337] And that's kind of like what I like lived by.
[338] And I still think of it sometimes.
[339] I'm like, oh my God, Jack, come on.
[340] When I was like at my, and at that point I was honestly at my absolute worst.
[341] Like the night before as I got there, I got to.
[342] Scotland and like the morning of I tried to like pull out they took again when we got there they took our phones off because we like that you know just can't we see everyone who's on the show so we can't text people like oh I'll guess who's in the show and then they like leaked the stories or whatever you like I need to go out until May but I was like I can quit yeah I need my phone so I can call my manager and tell I'm not doing it that's what it was and the best thing that they took my phone otherwise I would have pulled out I guarantee it but um they had like therapists on the show that i would like i'd spoken to quite a bit before and i was very open with them and they kind of knew i mean everyone going on they definitely had their struggles and they had their their battles and i'm not saying mine's worse than anyone's but i was definitely like very like vocal about mine and was i'm not saying it's worse anyone else's but i was like this is the worst has ever been for me like this is the worst I've ever been so prepare yourself for me to be like a nightmare and yeah like I said I didn't not people say like I didn't get a second to sleep the night before I literally didn't I just sat there like serious meaning like freaking freaking out and I was just like what hell are I gonna do and I knew we had to leave her like nine and like knocked my door they're like you ready I was not ready I was like I literally said to it I was like I felt like cry.
[343] I was like so emotional.
[344] I was like all over the place.
[345] It was like really.
[346] I'd never been like so bad.
[347] It was really weird.
[348] I felt like very uncontrollable.
[349] And I was like, can I use your phone?
[350] I think I need to speak to the like therapist guy.
[351] I was on the phone team for around two hours.
[352] I'd pushed back the whole first day of filming so much.
[353] But they were like, like amazing.
[354] They were honestly like so good because, look, realistically, I think they knew.
[355] I wanted to do it.
[356] I probably was going to do it.
[357] I was having a serious moment.
[358] They also knew that my mental health was in, like, a really bad place at the time.
[359] They were amazingly understanding and kind of patient with me. And, yeah, there was this kind of one woman there who was like, maybe the exec or like a producer, maybe the exact producer.
[360] But she was like my go -to girl.
[361] And she made me do it because, like I said, I spoke to the therapist for ages.
[362] And I was still a bit like, oh, God, you gave you that very good thing of like, you know, one step at a time.
[363] He's like, get ready, go downstairs, see how you feel.
[364] Next step, you know, you're ready when he's get in the car and get to the location and see how you feel.
[365] And it was like, that was like, again, there were like words of wisdom to me at that point.
[366] So I was like, I'm not going to be able to do it.
[367] Because I'm just thinking to the end of the show.
[368] I'm like, how the hell am I going to do seven days?
[369] Like a mountain.
[370] Like, no way.
[371] Yeah.
[372] So he was like, you know, it's like one step at a time, like break it down and that.
[373] helped me so much and then yeah I was just kind of with her and it's such good advice I think for anybody that's listening that I mean pretty much in all facets of life whether you're trying to achieve something great or you're trying to overcome fear yeah breaking it down into smaller manageable pieces makes it absolutely yeah it was like a game changer for me like those simple yeah simple words but it just helps you think in a different way so yeah I was just kind of talking to them and I definitely I said like calm down I was just like hey do what yeah obviously do it jack i did want to do it i like these things this show's crazy i want to give it a go like you know that piece of me still in me like oh i wish i if it was more like oh i wish i still had any need to kind of do that but i was that right let's go and and yeah just kind of got on with it had like very highs and lows in there every time we finish the task i'd feel literally like on top of the world like everyone in there you know you'd just accomplish something i never thought i'd be able to do especially like with how i was feeling then when we're kind of going to a task that's when i have the thing of i'm gonna i'm gonna i want to pull out i want to like leave and that in the show you that's the kind of point you pull out when you've kind of reached your your limit and for me definitely for me a bigger part although physically i mean it was just hell like it was how i were like so hurt doing it like everywhere but for me it was definitely a way bigger mental battle and i think think probably everyone in there would say the same because it's you're thinking i don't need to do this like if i get to the end or not it doesn't actually really make a difference to me i really hit my limit about god it was like four days in i think it was like a seven -day thing it was like the fourth day mentally i was like drained but also i was like so physically hurt and had like one injury that was like really annoying me but and i remember thinking yeah cool i'm gonna get to tomorrow and see how I feel if it like still really hurts as in I was at a point where I couldn't like run it's more like a fast limp and we got like halfway through that day we just played a game called Murderball which you can imagine is really fun which involves being like rugby tackled by Tony Bellew and stuff like that so after that I was like I'm done but the thing that made me like a lot happy about it one I got further than I ever thought especially the days before it further than I ever thought I'd got like I never thought in a million years when I feel like that I could be able to achieve those kind of things and it really showed me like you know if you just commit it's going to make me feel so much better like afterwards like if I stick through and just persevere and then at the same time I was like well I've left after like completing something so it's kind of like a good sign off for me I didn't get something and be like no thanks I'm going to go so like I kind of I was like look I'm just going to do this one tick this off and then yeah, it's probably time to go because I can feel like over there like die now like everything's in so much pain and I was just like yeah I mean beyond exhausted so and you could be proud of yourself at that point honestly like I was so happy with how far I got it was like a you know kind of had to be there moment when you're going through all that to understand how hard it is to do that for that long but like two people get to the edge two people got to the end of the show so I was like yeah I was so happy with how far I got and that really made me like feel like just so much better and it kind of showed me like you know just physical exercise and everything like that is so good for your like mental health so I carried on running after that and like training really hard because in the buildup I was training like twice a day for like two months where are you at now in your life in terms of career in terms of your mental health in terms of your personal situation yeah like mental health I feel pretty good like right now I definitely have my days like about a month ago I had like a weird week I was like trying to help a friend who was going through it and they but they well who would just finally start talking about it and didn't know what was going on and I was just explaining how it was with me and it was like that was the first time I spoke about it in like quite a while so it just kind of made me it just brings it all to just yeah it brings it to service I made me feel a bit like funny for a few days but like to be honest with you I think like I said a lot of my problems were when I was going to things and trying to do something where I felt really like uncomfortable kind out your comfort zone.
[374] I was kind of with lockdown.
[375] You just have to be at home a lot.
[376] So I do definitely feel like comfortable and I think it's been quite good for my mental health.
[377] And now when I have the days where I go out and I've got like, you know, a day of like work or something I've got going to do loads of things.
[378] I'm really happy to kind of be out and stuff.
[379] So it's kind of like, yeah, I think it's again.
[380] Are you nervous about coming here?
[381] You kind of alluded to it.
[382] No, I wasn't.
[383] Do you know what?
[384] I was nervous that I was going to get nervous about coming out.
[385] So when it came to it, I was like, oh, I don't want to get to the day and be like, I don't I do yeah I'm I feel a bit like weird yeah I feel like honestly completely fine like I said I'd have you'd probably heard no yeah I wouldn't blow yeah so I hear talking about lockdown I heard you um you um you got in a little bit of relationship over lockdown which is um yeah seems a lot of a relationship yeah we were talking about this before we started recording yeah been with your girlfriend now eight months how's that going it's never easy going incredibly well to have a lockdown relationship yeah it's definitely not like easy having a lockdown relationship but we also don't know any anything else because we met like the beginning of last year where because we were neighbours basically we were like our apartments doors opposite each other and I moved in like the first week of March last year so that's kind of like how we met and she had a dog so there was lots of dog walt dates basically excuse was it was it difficult dating when you were really in your stride with YouTube and you had like, imagine people were stopping you a lot and stuff like that and when you had the stuff on TV.
[386] Yeah, I didn't really date then, to be honest, with you because I'd like, there was like two things.
[387] One I had in my head of like, you know, I'm just so like focused on what I'm doing right now and I didn't purposely not, but I didn't put much effort into, you know, it wasn't really one of my priorities whatsoever.
[388] And I was just having, you know, I was enjoying it.
[389] I was like, just living life.
[390] I was having so much fun.
[391] And like, all of my friends were single as well.
[392] So it was just, I don't know, just didn't happen whatsoever.
[393] There was no need for me to do that.
[394] But also my brother got a girlfriend in his prime of like his career.
[395] And I think he, you know, be the first to say that it.
[396] And I'm not saying this is for everyone at all.
[397] But my experience it like kind of held him back, not in terms of she held him back.
[398] But, you know, just having a girlfriend.
[399] You have different priorities and different focuses and stuff.
[400] They're focusing on their life.
[401] Yeah.
[402] So I just like didn't have any.
[403] what's been the upside of having a partner um because i'm a single guy so i'm like asking i want you to pitch it to me what's the people people think people think i'm so much happier i feel i know so like fringy by just feel like so much happier i look at the days of when you know being single and like wanted to like go out and do all these things and like or like dating and stuff like i look at it now like oh my god so much like effort in a way whereas now it's so like just fun and like relax and it's very nice to feel for everyone listening to this but that can't see him he's saying all of this but he's shaking his head at it's amazing definitely do it but it's just like amazing being you know so comfortable with someone I think for me especially that was like a massive thing because I've been so uncomfortable in so many situations with like where I was at to then meet someone and and be in those positions where normally I would be uncomfortable sounds kind of like cringy but having her there makes me feel like so much better she's without her even knowing it just being with someone and and whatever makes you feel you know so good and I've never I've never I've never been in a relationship really so it's kind of like my first relationship which I don't know if she likes or not really you don't know if she likes it yeah no it's in like it's the fact that is my first relationship sometimes she's like you know I wish you'd maybe had a girl from before so you'd know this or that and the other I think she also likes the fact that she's my first and why wouldn't someone want to be you um i think the main one i'd probably say is there's like a lot of pressure like but i'm the one putting that pressure on myself no one's putting pressure on me but it's just a lot of like self pressure like i'm in control of like everything i'm like says the diary or like ceo i'm like my own boss i'm in control of everything i do i'm in control of all my finances like what comes in like what goes out, it's all just kind of on me. So if I stop, you know, it all stops.
[404] If I work my hardest, then, you know, hopefully it kind of pays off.
[405] So it's just a lot of, a lot of pressure in terms of, you know, wanting to keep going and like also expand, like taking like every opportunity you can get.
[406] That's why, you know, I went from YouTube and I did radio and now.
[407] I was like, oh, I want to break that barrier to TV.
[408] And then I started DJing and doing like music and going on tour and all these things.
[409] It was like just grabbing every opportunity I can to kind of grow as much as I possibly can, but it's like exhausting.
[410] It definitely takes a toll.
[411] And sometimes you do need to kind of step back.
[412] But also, like I said, if I stop, kind of everything's stopped.
[413] So taking your step back is like, not possible.
[414] Yeah, it's a bit of a risk.
[415] That carpentry.
[416] Yeah.
[417] Job you had when you were 16.
[418] Does sometimes you wish maybe.
[419] Sometimes I think I'm like, yeah, because, you know, my dad does fine for himself.
[420] He's at three kids and we've all turned out, like, fine.
[421] And we've all done well for ourselves.
[422] Sometimes I feel like I would be so much happy about that same time.
[423] I'm like, oh my God, like, when I look back at some of the things I've done in my life, I'm like, that's amazing.
[424] I'm like so proud of myself for some of the things I've done in the moment, it felt pretty cool.
[425] But when I look back on it, I'm like, that was like huge.
[426] And you're still so young.
[427] Yeah, I'm 20, just about, yeah, 26.
[428] Taking all the pressure off and I don't want to apply extra pressure here.
[429] But when you look forward at the next, I don't know, 20 years of your life, how in your mind do you see that kind of playing out?
[430] I don't mean like I'm going to be doing this exact thing.
[431] But I mean like, what are you looking for from life?
[432] Um, I think I'm looking like being completely honest with you.
[433] It's kind of like probably looking more into like businesses and like business and like having like I said I've got my own like production company right now that's doing probably way better than I thought it was going to be doing at this point, which is good.
[434] So like things like that, just growing it as much as I can and, you know, kind of the classic I want to be like a boss and across so many things.
[435] not that I'm not working but you know it's not like I've got a 9 to 5 type thing so it's kind of like like I was doing YouTube because I could kind of do whatever I wanted with my days but I knew I had to do like X amount of things and you know I'm still making like my money and everything like that and I think yeah you know I look at I'm probably not going to be 30 years old making like these kind of YouTube videos anyway who knows but might be a niche for that yeah yeah so it's like realistically I look at my life probably like trying to go into that kind of direction, just building something else.
[436] Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next.
[437] Thank you.
[438] I'm going to be watching very, very closely now that I stalk you on social media.
[439] So I think, like, as I say, you're like super young, but you have such a wealth of experience from everything you've been through.
[440] And I don't think, you know, sometimes we don't realize how valuable some of that experience has been until later in life.
[441] And in fact, I still think about my hardest ever moment starting a business as a young guy.
[442] as being some of my most traumatic moments as being my most valuable because they like, you have something that no one else has, right?
[443] You know, and you have the experiences.
[444] Thank you so much for coming today.
[445] Thank you.
[446] Thank you.
[447] And you've been so honest as well.
[448] Which is the whole point of this podcast at the end of the day.
[449] And I also know that you've helped a lot of people by walking us through your journey with mental health and with learning a bit more about it.
[450] So just want to say a huge thank you.
[451] And if you ever do start a podcast, we'll do this again once you think I can cite.
[452] from all your listeners.
[453] But yeah, thank you so much.
[454] I appreciate, thank you.
[455] Thank you.