America Ferrera

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Veronica Radman.

[3] How are you feeling?

[4] I'm feeling good.

[5] I'm doing well.

[6] That's what Delta said once.

[7] Delta, the five -year -old on Zoom.

[8] One of her friends was like, like acting crazy.

[9] And she's like, yeah, I'm doing good.

[10] I'm feeling well.

[11] Today we have America Ferreira.

[12] America Ferreira is an actress, a producer, and increasingly a director.

[13] She was, of course, on Ugly Betty's Superstore, the sisterhood of traveling pants, and now she has a show called Hentified, which she directed in is phenomenal, and you should check it out.

[14] So please enjoy America Ferreira.

[15] Wonderie Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

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[17] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[18] He's an object to expert.

[19] He's an ultra expert.

[20] I'm so glad I get to see your faces because I was so afraid we were just going to be on a phone call.

[21] I know.

[22] Well, we would have really preferred to done it in person because we think some magic dust exchanges from one another.

[23] Yeah.

[24] Yeah.

[25] Well, that's why we can't be together because the magic place.

[26] Exactly.

[27] That's a great point.

[28] You're pregnant, right?

[29] I am pregnant, due imminently.

[30] Congratulations.

[31] Congratulations.

[32] Thank you.

[33] And I have a son who's about to be two.

[34] Oh, wow.

[35] Which is fun and a lot of work, as you know.

[36] You know, when you're this far along pregnant, it's like there are days where I can't even keep my eyes.

[37] Yeah, you announced in January that you were pregnant, but how far long are you?

[38] I'm due like sometime in May. So like, it's common.

[39] Okay, okay.

[40] Yeah, yeah.

[41] I guess I've been following a little bit, like just on Instagram.

[42] How are they allowing people?

[43] Like, it was just that the women were doing on their own, right?

[44] And the husband was like not allowed in there.

[45] And yeah, I mean, it's really insane.

[46] And look, everybody is dealing with insane upheavals and not, not, normal circumstances.

[47] I mean, I can't speak for other women, but for me, like, childbirth is scary.

[48] And it brings up some, like, really primal, deep -seated, probably warranted fears about, like, everything that could happen.

[49] So, you know, that's true for me, not in a global pandemic, but then, like, add that to the mix.

[50] And you kind of don't know what situation you're walking into.

[51] And I think every state is kind of doing it differently and different hospitals are doing it differently.

[52] But like there was maybe like a week or so where mothers in New York were birthing alone without anybody in the room with them.

[53] Like, I mean, I could burst out into tears thinking about that right now.

[54] You know, I mean, nurses and doctors, I guess, coming in and out, but without their partners or any family members or any loved ones there with them.

[55] And I think that changed rather quickly, but now I think the issue is that post -birth, the mothers aren't allowed to have anyone with them in a lot of hospitals, which is terrifying.

[56] Childbirth is no joke.

[57] If you had to rank your overall general anxiety in life, zero to 10, what's your baseline?

[58] I don't think I'm an anxious person.

[59] No, I'm not an anxious person.

[60] I can get to 10.

[61] Like, I can get myself to 10.

[62] But you know what this?

[63] It's so interesting because I'm not in general, an anxious person.

[64] I am a highly suggestible person.

[65] So like, so like I can't do things like I can't watch horror films.

[66] Okay.

[67] Because I get too scared watching horror films.

[68] Yes, I have the same thing.

[69] We watched Dateline the other day and I was like scared for two hours after.

[70] Yeah.

[71] Like I can't, I believe it too much.

[72] Yes.

[73] So I stopped watching horror films like when I was like 10.

[74] And I get mad when I'm like watching late night TV and they play a trailer for like The Purge 7 or whatever.

[75] And I'm just like, I didn't ask for that.

[76] I don't want that.

[77] It's 11 .30 p .m. I want to go to sleep.

[78] And you just made me watch this horror moment.

[79] So if I stopped to think about something, I can get myself there in like a second.

[80] But I think on a day -to -day basis in general, there's this silver lining of perspective of like nothing really matters that much, right?

[81] It's only when the illusion of safety and stability is broken, but there is no safety and stability.

[82] Even like, I think it was maybe like Esther Perel.

[83] Someone really impressive was like marriage is an illusion of safety.

[84] It doesn't come with just safety.

[85] You know, you have to daily create that.

[86] And there is no permanent homeostasis for stability and safeness.

[87] I love Esther Perel.

[88] She's the best.

[89] She's amazing.

[90] Yeah, I think that at the moment, I feel the realization of, like, we don't have any control, really, ever, is actually bringing me, like, this predate natural kind of calm versus the other way.

[91] But I also feel like, just, like, tuning into the news for three minutes could, like, jack me out the other way, like, right?

[92] You know, really quick.

[93] Is there any, like, conventional male -female things happening between you and your husband?

[94] because my wife and I are like, we went straight to all the cliches when it started back.

[95] I'm like, it's fucking fine until this house is on fire.

[96] Now, everything's fine.

[97] You know, I have the everything's fine because I can't fix it.

[98] So I just dismiss it as not a threat.

[99] So we're like, we just snapped right into these really conventional roles.

[100] Well, in our house, my husband, Ryan, was sounding the alarm like December.

[101] Like seriously, like the second he heard that this.

[102] this was happening in China, he was like, this is what we need.

[103] I'm going to start stocking up.

[104] And, you know, he's a little OCD, like for real, for real.

[105] And there are times where that is a bummer for me, his wife.

[106] And I definitely was like rolling my eyes and just being like, okay, go get a 50 pound sack of beans.

[107] You know, whatever.

[108] Doomsday prepper.

[109] I know, I know.

[110] But you know what?

[111] I really won this time with his tendency to be prepared.

[112] He really saw the signs and took it seriously.

[113] And I did not.

[114] I mean, I was A, pregnant, so, like, didn't have that much mental capacity to, like, take it in.

[115] And B, I was, like, working.

[116] I worked all the way up until March 13th.

[117] They didn't shut down production on my show on Superstore.

[118] Okay.

[119] Which, by the way, was a week before I was supposed to wrap the series.

[120] Like the whole thing, like I'm...

[121] You're moving on, yeah, yeah.

[122] Yeah, I'm leaving the show.

[123] And so I had, like, ramping myself up for, like, my last episode.

[124] You'd already written your cards and everything, thanking everyone.

[125] A week of teary goodbyes and also telling people like, we're not doing this right now.

[126] We'll do this in the last week.

[127] Like, I'm not crying.

[128] It's like saving it all for the last week.

[129] And then, you know, we come into work on Friday a week before we're actually supposed to wrap.

[130] And they're like, this is your last day.

[131] I assume they just clip the episode.

[132] sewed off the order, right?

[133] They're not going to try to resume, because it'll have expired, right?

[134] The end of the season will be?

[135] Well, I think I will have to go back and finish because the storyline isn't really complete for my character.

[136] So it's the end of her entire character arc on the show.

[137] So the way that it ends right now is with the penultimate episode, which was not intended to be the finale, but is going to be the finale.

[138] And then, you know, I guess it's kind of nice.

[139] We'll come back next season.

[140] and start the season with a real bummer of an episode.

[141] Like, Amy leaving.

[142] Okay, so that's the plan.

[143] As next year, we'll see that final episode.

[144] I think so.

[145] I think that's the plan.

[146] Again, like, what are plans these days?

[147] Who knows, you know?

[148] But I think the chances are good that I'll go back and finish Amy's storyline.

[149] My wife has just an abundance of lovely feelings about you.

[150] Oh, well, same.

[151] But she has you filed in her, like, group of superwomen who are changing the world that she respects in love.

[152] Are you friends with Polar?

[153] She told me that this morning.

[154] I am.

[155] Polar is like the best of all the best.

[156] How'd you guys meet?

[157] We met through groups of friends.

[158] And then, you know, it's like if you're lucky enough to know, like probably the coolest woman ever, then you get to meet other cool women.

[159] Uh -huh.

[160] You know, we've gotten on all these text chains where, like, crises are happening around.

[161] the world and you know we all get on text message and try to help each other like get through them emotionally or like as a mom I'm like ah what do I do or do you have any awareness or gratitude for the fact that you work in an era where yeah there's Amy polar there's my wife that like if you were on TV in the 80s you would have bumped into other women on the lot but they would have all been someone's wife generally they wouldn't have been like the lead of the show and isn't it kind of cool that you're working in an era where you have all these peers that are like their own entities?

[162] Absolutely.

[163] And I think this time is unprecedented in a way, you know, yes, I feel like for a while I've been able to kind of like look out and see amazing women doing amazing things that I wanted to be doing, you know, watching Polar go from being in front of the camera to producing and directing episodes of her show to directing features and watching my friends like Amber Tamlin and Iva Longoria do the same, like watching.

[164] Watching, women model a possibility is life -changing, but something else happened in this era in our industry, which was the Times Up movement.

[165] And that changed so much more for women in our industry.

[166] Because I think before that, even if you saw women from afar or admired them from afar or went to them at an award ceremony and said, I love you, like, thank you.

[167] There was still this feeling of like being in silos, you know, we oftentimes as a woman and particularly as a woman of color, like you're the only one in the room.

[168] You're the only woman in the cast.

[169] You're the only woman producer.

[170] You're the only, you know, woman in a decision -making cohort.

[171] And that can be really isolating and really lonely.

[172] And what happened when Times Up was born is that those barriers just dissolved.

[173] And women were literally coming together.

[174] in rooms physically to be with each other in a way that was unprecedented in our industry, in a way where there was proximity and where we would talk about things like, why has it taken us this long?

[175] So often we are not only kept separate, but also pitted against each other as competition, not as potential partners and potential collaborators.

[176] Well, there's still a scarcity mentality because there were so few roles, you know, that were relevant out there.

[177] So I do think there's this scarcity mentality that was quite real just 10 years ago that helps lay the groundwork for that.

[178] Totally.

[179] And it's also, like, cyclical because if women are never together and are never collaborators and never talking and never even knowing each other or seeing each other as anything but competition for those, you know, paltry roles that are out there, then they can't create together, you know?

[180] And look at what someone like Reese Witherspoon is doing right now.

[181] and everything she makes is like opening doors for five other women to start, to produce, to direct.

[182] And it doesn't have to be, I have to protect my piece of the pie for me. And that mentality really opened up with this not easy, but very simple act of proximity, of just like being around each other.

[183] And the feeling that like even if I didn't know somebody, if I watched a film she directed, I feel like in this day and age, I could reach out and say, hey, I really love and admire what you did.

[184] Would you be willing to talk to me about, you know, this project that I'm trying to get off the ground?

[185] And from where I sit, there is an openness and a willingness to do that and to lift each other up.

[186] To like mentor each other.

[187] Yeah.

[188] And it just feels so different from what it felt like 10 years ago in this industry as a woman, And as a woman of color, there's what it's like for all women.

[189] But as a Latino woman, oh, my God, I didn't know any other Latinas in this industry.

[190] And, you know, you talk about scrambling and competing for a small piece of the pie.

[191] Yeah, yeah.

[192] Like, you know, there were five Latinas that were all, like, competing for, oh, the sassy Latina lover or whatever it is.

[193] And you only knew each other in that context.

[194] And that boundary has started to dissolve.

[195] and that feels incredible to know that we can just reject the idea that we're not allowed to create together and that we're not allowed to empower one another and that there isn't space for all of us because, of course, there is.

[196] And the more that we are able to collaborate and inspire and connect with one another, the more is possible.

[197] I'm seeing it every day as a producer, as a director, as an actress.

[198] Now, I am curious about Times Up, I'm just guessing and projecting here, but I wonder, is there any comfort in the fact that I imagine if I'm young and I'm female and I'm looking at the Reese Witherspoons and Amy Pollers, I am wrongly assuming, well, they're so bold and confident that they couldn't have ever been victimized by this.

[199] And then finding out, like, no, no level of power really makes you impervious to that.

[200] Like, was there some layer of comfort knowing, like, oh my God, that happened to you?

[201] Absolutely.

[202] That's so much of the deal, right, is just coming to see each other as humans and coming to realize how shared our experiences are.

[203] You know, Reescape, this beautiful speech at an award luncheon this past year.

[204] You know, she talks about like how dismissed and how no one would take her seriously as anything but like a pretty blonde actress.

[205] And look at the empire she's building for herself.

[206] And it's beyond inspiring to be reminded.

[207] minded that like everybody has this struggle and you know to different degrees with different elements and aspects obviously but but it isn't easy for anyone and and no one gets to escape the psychology of this industry and also the psychology of being a woman in this industry and how you have to really fight past what you have internalized as a woman about what's possible for you like for me yeah i've started directing and i started on my show on superstore Four years ago, and I knew I wanted to do it, but I was terrified.

[208] I mean, really, truly, like, shaking, terrified to ask the question, you know, for a show that I was a star on and that I was a producer on from the beginning.

[209] Yeah.

[210] And, you know, it was like, do I just think I'm not capable?

[211] Do I think I don't deserve it?

[212] Have I not worked hard enough?

[213] Really having to figure out, like, what is this fear?

[214] Yeah, what's the mental block?

[215] And I remember, like, I was on set and these two actors.

[216] walked on set, these two male actors, who were like somewhat known television stars.

[217] I was like, oh, hey, hi, nice to meet you.

[218] What are you guys doing here?

[219] And they're like, oh, we're shadowing to direct.

[220] And I'm like, of course you are.

[221] Yeah.

[222] You're on one television show, you know, for a couple episodes.

[223] And you're like, I should do that, which is great.

[224] Not to take anything away from that.

[225] But like such a mirror was held up to me. I'm like, I have made over 150 hours of television.

[226] Like, what am I waiting for?

[227] Like, I've been working since I was 17 years old.

[228] I've been on sets.

[229] I've worked with countless directors.

[230] Like, I don't know what I'm waiting for to be ready.

[231] And so really, I, like, I texted Amy Poehler and texted Eva Longuria and texted Amber Timlin and talk to my friends and said, I'm terrified.

[232] And they're like, you got this.

[233] Like, you're going to be scared.

[234] You got this.

[235] You can do it.

[236] And it was like, in spite of how scary it was, had to take that step.

[237] But I don't know that I could have or would have without some level of support and modeling from women around me who had done the same thing.

[238] And since then, I directed several episodes of Superstore.

[239] I directed two episodes of Hentified, which is my show that premiered on Netflix earlier.

[240] I was waiting for you to pronounce it first because I was like, that word looks like gentrified to me, but I am dyslexic and I don't know.

[241] Hentified.

[242] So it's a play on Gentrified, but Hente is the word in Spanish for people.

[243] So it's a made -up word that was actually created by activists inside these gentrifying communities.

[244] So it's essentially kind of the act of community changing, but by the people from that community.

[245] And it's a very controversial issue because in a town like Boyle Heights here in L .A., it's such a beautiful, beautiful neighborhood.

[246] I actually shot my very first film I ever did, Real Women Have Curbs, was completely shot in Boyle Heights.

[247] Oh, no kidding.

[248] Yeah, and it's changed so much, hence the gentification.

[249] But the idea of hentification is that, like, a lot of young people like myself who are born and raised in of these neighborhoods go away, go to college, get educated, get access, come home and then open up their art studio or open up their coffee shop where a latte costs $10.

[250] And they themselves, like the people of that neighborhood are part and parcel of the changing of it.

[251] And also the kind of unsustainability of its historical kind of traditional roots.

[252] And the people who live there kind of making it harder for the people who are from there to survive there.

[253] Anyway, Hentified is it, it's a comedy.

[254] I'm sure it sounds hilarious the way that I explain it.

[255] But it's a comedy with drama and it's sort of centered around.

[256] this family in Boyle Heights and I'm so proud of it and as a producer to have gotten to create space for two incredibly talented young Latino voices to come through and tell this story authentically and have their show, you know, be on Netflix and watched and loved.

[257] It's such a win.

[258] And then like I said, I got to direct two of the episodes, which was really awesome.

[259] Now, often when we are interviewing someone of color, there is part of me that thinks, if I were in this position, at times I would be like selfishly, hey, I just want to enjoy this fucking ride.

[260] Because I'm black, I have to now speak on all black issues or be politically minded or be active in that way.

[261] Or if I'm a woman, I have to take on all these women.

[262] Like, what if I'm just a selfish person who wants to fucking get paid and live, yet there's this kind of baked in expectation Does that expectation ever feel daunting?

[263] It sounds like you run towards that and really enjoy that.

[264] But sometimes I just go like, oh, it's kind of not fair than on top of it being harder to get there.

[265] Once you're there, you have this added responsibility that certainly I don't have.

[266] You know, I'm free to just fucking make money and buy cars.

[267] Yeah.

[268] To be a shit head.

[269] Yeah.

[270] No, I do this for the money.

[271] Is that not obvious?

[272] Is that not apparent?

[273] I'm doing a really bad job of it.

[274] And I believe wholeheartedly in everyone's right to be able to just make money and buy cars if that's what they want to do.

[275] And it's like, and I get it.

[276] And there are times where I feel that, yeah, sure, there are moments where sometimes I feel like this is just for fun or this is just for the love of like doing something silly or whatever it is.

[277] Or can I add an ego thing?

[278] Like an ego thing for me would be I direct.

[279] and within the question about directing it when they say it's great they and then they say as a woman director and then I think why are you putting me in these two boxes like just I fucking directed this great episode of TV let's just leave it at that that's like where I would get triggered I think yeah yeah you know it's tricky and you're right and it's like it's also about context right it's like who's putting you in that box and why are people putting you in that box and you know since I was 17 when I started my career it wasn't something that I was ever going to avoid.

[280] You know, I starred in a film called Real Women Have Curves, and as a brown, overweight young woman who didn't fit any of the stereotypes of like what a leading lady in a film should look like or be like, I realized really early on that, like, it wasn't up to me. People were going to cast me as a role model, as an example.

[281] And at 17, that's incredibly daunting.

[282] Oh, yeah.

[283] Scary, especially when, like, I was just a kid trying to figure out my own body issues and identity issues.

[284] And part of this is just who I am and my personality.

[285] But I really got so inspired and changed by realizing how powerful storytelling was.

[286] And getting in touch with my own anger and my own desire to see people like me and realizing like, oh, yeah, I had grown up my whole life seeing myself in Tom Hanks.

[287] and in Julia Roberts because I had to because I had to watch whatever was available to me and say, yeah, I could be that.

[288] And I never got to see anything that really looked like me. And as a kid, you know, you don't stop to think how that's like deeply impacting you and your view of yourself in the world.

[289] But as I got older, more awareness grew around that.

[290] And then truly more indignation, right?

[291] So I felt so lucky to have so much access to influence what kinds of stories were being told and also just like how certain characters were being portrayed, you know, since I was 17, I've had to walk onto sets and say, like, I wouldn't say that, you know, that sounds dumb or like, I don't connect to that, you know, and learning at such a young age to have to be an advocate, not just for yourself, but like for a representation of people like you.

[292] So I guess I'm just power hungry.

[293] And when the power came, when the power came, like, I will do right with this power.

[294] But no, you know, it's obviously about personality.

[295] And for me, what felt daunting and scary and like a burden and more than I could handle early on now feels like my purpose.

[296] It's like, yes, you know, what else would I be doing with this access that I have gotten for myself, if not changing what our stories look like?

[297] And also getting to be a part of getting millions and millions of millions of millions of people seen.

[298] And I know what that means.

[299] I know what it feels like to look out into the culture and feel truly invisible.

[300] And I think that the impacts of that go far beyond having a show to talk about at school.

[301] It's about feeling like you belong in this society.

[302] And, you know, the impact that has on young people and what they believe about themselves, you know, to go back to myself.

[303] And like, why did I feel like I didn't belong in the director's chair?

[304] Oh, I didn't see anybody like myself in the director's chair.

[305] So, right.

[306] Anyway, and not to get too self -righteous about it, but it definitely feels like it's a part of my personality to lean into it, as you said.

[307] Yeah.

[308] When you were first auditioning, did you already have that sort of sense of self?

[309] Or when you were first auditioning, were you like, I just want to go out for the white role or the every person role.

[310] And why does it always have to be a Latino role?

[311] Because when I started auditioning, I was like, I'm not doing an Indian accent.

[312] I'm not going to do anything with a name like whatever it's going to be.

[313] Pajma Hall.

[314] Sure.

[315] Which is a real name that Cal Penn had to audition for.

[316] And I just ran in the complete opposite direction and I was like, I'm not that.

[317] And it sounds like at some point you decided smartly that the best way to do this is to embrace it.

[318] But was that from the beginning or did you have to get there?

[319] It was definitely a journey.

[320] I mean, my very first.

[321] audition ever.

[322] I was 16, maybe 15.

[323] No, maybe 16.

[324] And it was for like literally like a late night like cable subscription commercial or it was like a bail bonds commercial.

[325] I can't even I was just something dumb.

[326] But it was like my first audition ever, ever, ever, ever.

[327] And I like walked in.

[328] I was so excited.

[329] And you know, I went in.

[330] I mean, I'm from the valley.

[331] I went to like 34 bar and bat mitzvahs growing up.

[332] Like, you know, my Spanish is like not that great.

[333] So, I walked in, I read the sides.

[334] I thought I did a great job.

[335] And then the, you know, the casting director, lady, was like, hmm, that's great.

[336] Can you do that again, but sound more Latina?

[337] Uh -huh.

[338] Sure, sure, sure.

[339] And I was like, what do you?

[340] I don't, do you want me to do this in Spanish?

[341] And she was like, no, no, no, no, like do it in English, but like just sound more Latina.

[342] I genuinely was like, I have no fucking idea what you're asking me to do.

[343] So I just, like, did it again the way I speak.

[344] And then I went to her and I was like, I am Latina.

[345] So is it this what a Latina sounds like?

[346] And she was just like, okay, thank you, honey, bye.

[347] And, like, you know, never got the role.

[348] And I was so young, I didn't really understand until later, like, oh, she just wanted me to like speak.

[349] Bad English.

[350] Yeah, be a stereotype.

[351] Now they, now that thing, well, I think it's actually expired already.

[352] But yeah, for a while there, it was like the safe way to say it was to say urban.

[353] Like, oh, could it be more urban?

[354] Right, right.

[355] Meanwhile, like, I couldn't be less urban if I try.

[356] Very early on, I realized there's going to be a box here that they're going to shove me in.

[357] But, you know, it wasn't that I was willing to do things that felt demeaning.

[358] And again, this is a person now.

[359] anything you know i mean i came from a very very poor family mother was a single mom parents were immigrants like i had no leg to stand on in terms of like my art you know what i mean like i just had to take whatever opportunity came to me but i remember like auditions coming through where even at 16 i was like fuck no i'm not going in for that you know so and then there were other opportunities where things didn't feel perfect but there felt like enough there that i could then go in and like have a conversation about and talk to someone about.

[360] You know, and I learned how to work with mostly white men or white women and have conversations with them about how to make a better decision for the character that served them in the long run and help them kind of get to, which is like it's a pretty exhausting but useful skill to learn at 16 years old.

[361] 17 years old, you know, and then at a certain point, as a 36 -year -old woman, you know, 20 years into this career, feeling like I don't want to have to have those conversations if I don't have to.

[362] Like, I know how to have those conversations.

[363] Yeah.

[364] But also, I actually just want to see us telling our stories.

[365] And I want other people to have to translate.

[366] Like, if I could see myself in Tom Hanks, then why can't Tom Hanks see himself in me?

[367] When you did curves, I've shortened it to just curves.

[368] Curves is a good one.

[369] Curves is a good shortage.

[370] So when you did curves and you went down to Boyle Heights, being from the valley, had you spent any time over there or was that culture shock to you?

[371] Were you like, oh, this whole pocket of the city is much different than San Fernando Valley?

[372] It was a little bit of culture shock.

[373] Yeah.

[374] I mean, I remember I'd go downtown with my mom where I'd see many more Latino people.

[375] Your mom's from Honduras.

[376] My mom's Honduran, yeah.

[377] And we'd go downtown to, like, buy things wholesale or whatever.

[378] The thing about Boyle Heights, that's amazing, is it's a real community with real history and with a lot of pride, like the people who live there have so much pride in their community and in their culture.

[379] And, you know, you drive around and there are these stunning murals of Caesar Chavez and Dolores Querta and, like, by Latino artists, that's sort of a neighborhood where Latino culture was not just like poor people just trying to get by, but there was expression of art, that felt like culture shock to me, because I had never seen anything like that before.

[380] And in that way, Boyle Heights is this sort of like magical place.

[381] And you understand why the people who are from it defend it fiercely, because we don't have that many spaces that belong to us, that where our art is on the walls, where our music, like Marieti Plaza is like the center of Boyle Heights, where, you know, these musicians with the tradition and the culture show up, you know, in full regalia and are celebrating our piece of culture that really matters to that community.

[382] And there aren't very many places that exist that are like that.

[383] So, yes, it felt like culture shock to me. Navalia, even when you were a kid, was 30 to 45 percent Latino, right?

[384] There were people that look like you in San Fernando Valley, yeah?

[385] Well, yes and no. So, when I was really young, we lived in Canoga Park where that was true.

[386] There were many more Latinos and brown faces around, but those were obviously like not the good schools.

[387] They weren't well funded.

[388] Yeah.

[389] They were more violent.

[390] And so naturally, my mom was like, I can't send you guys to these schools.

[391] You have to go to the better schools.

[392] And we were lucky enough to have an aunt who had money and lived in a nicer part of the neighborhood.

[393] So there was like a small period where, yeah, we like used her address to go to the better elementary schools, which apparently in this country you could go to jail for seven years for.

[394] Eventually that aunt helped us move into a home in that zip code.

[395] So we were able to go to some of the better funded, better programmed public schools, which obviously meant that it was a wider neighborhood because that's where the better schools are.

[396] And so I was in a wider and predominantly very Jewish neighborhood is where I grew up.

[397] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[398] We've all been there, turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[399] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[400] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[401] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[402] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

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[406] What's up, guys?

[407] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[408] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[409] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest.

[410] Okay, every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[411] And I don't mean just friends.

[412] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[413] The list goes on.

[414] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[415] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[416] So the only person that I'm really close with that has the Latino experience acting is Michael Pena, who I know you did end of watch with.

[417] And Caesar Chavez.

[418] Oh yeah.

[419] Yeah.

[420] There's a potential, I would imagine, to be like in this nether world of culture, right?

[421] So it's like you go to Boyle Heights.

[422] You didn't have that experience.

[423] You can view that experience.

[424] And there you might feel like oh am I not authentically Latina enough and then be back in your more predominantly white high school I'm feeling like oh I'm not white enough and I just know that Pena through many interviews we've done together is like you know he didn't feel embraced sometimes by the Mexican American community and like he wasn't Mexican enough and yet he was too Mexican to be white and there was just kind of this like where do I fit in what is my niche?

[425] Totally.

[426] Yeah.

[427] It's like you don't belong anywhere and you're not good enough for anyone.

[428] Yes, absolutely.

[429] That's like my upbringing in a nutshell.

[430] And I did, I edited and compiled this book called American Like Me, which is, you know, based on that experience growing up.

[431] But, you know, what I realized as I grew up or grew older was just like, oh, this isn't like a particularly Latino experience.

[432] This is certainly experienced by so many first generation, children of immigrants, you know, grandchildren of immigrants in this country.

[433] So, you know, I had friends who were like Chinese American and Filipino American and Palestinian American and like we would talk about our upbringings and we're like, same.

[434] Same is like we're basically all the same, you know?

[435] Yeah, yeah.

[436] So I actually compiled this book and there's 34 authors in it.

[437] And, you know, people from Nigeria to the Dominican to China and Japan, like, like sharing stories about that experience.

[438] And the truth is, is my book was focused on mainly people who were children of immigrants or immigrants themselves.

[439] But, you know, this is an experience that is also a socioeconomic experience, too.

[440] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[441] It can never stop if you choose.

[442] So, like, I'm from a pretty lower class, blue collar, hillbilly, redneck, high rate of violence, alcoholism.

[443] And then as I ascend through the socioeconomic spectrum, yeah, I'm hanging out.

[444] with much different people.

[445] And then I go home and I'm, I find myself even code switching as a white dude of like, oh, no, I'm, I seem a elitist if I pronounce pop soda.

[446] You know, all these little micro things where I find myself doing.

[447] So yeah, I think there's so many different layers are opportunities for us to have a duality.

[448] And it's, I guess it's only compounded, yeah, when you have more visible indicators.

[449] I listened to your interview that you did with TI.

[450] And I felt like so much of what you were talking about in that felt really, really relevant and similar to like the experience that that I had kind of there's there's the ethnic piece of it which is you know, I'm not American enough.

[451] I'm not white enough.

[452] I'm not Latino enough.

[453] But then like you said, as you start to become successful and gain access, like what does that then mean for your whole identity that sprung from like having nothing like so how do you like in your mind you're like I have no idea what I am anymore like I don't know what I'm allowed to claim on paper I'm the person I hate right I certainly just like if you were rich I hated you I felt less than around you and I hated you and then here I am I by all accounts am now rich and my children are growing up very privileged and I'm like huh okay this is interesting How do I make peace with all this?

[454] That's the thing that I feel is so tricky is like my children's life and upbringing is going to be so radically different from the way I grew up.

[455] And like there are parts of that that I'm super grateful for.

[456] And then parts of it where I'm like, you know, if I wanted to do something in the summer as a 12 year old kid, I had to learn the bus route.

[457] And at 12 years old, hop on three buses, three.

[458] hours each way to get to an acting class I wanted to take because my mom - 25 male predators.

[459] Yeah, exactly.

[460] I mean, also, it's horrifying.

[461] You're like, oh, my God, who would let their child do that?

[462] But it's like things like that where I'm like, that's something that you look back and you go like, okay, that was questionable whether or not to let your 12 -year -old daughter do that.

[463] But also, we didn't have a choice and it's what I did.

[464] Also, like, it taught me so much and it gave me grit and it taught me how.

[465] to work hard for things that I wanted and like, how do you give your children that experience when you're like, I could buy you a car?

[466] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[467] Someone said it perfectly.

[468] They said the challenge of parenting with money is that instead of being able to say, I want that, oh, well, we can't afford that, to have to say, I could buy that for you.

[469] And I am not going to do that.

[470] And I'm not going to.

[471] I know.

[472] Well, especially when you had nothing as a kid and you're like living vicariously through your children and we're like, you know, all you wanted.

[473] Yeah, my daughter has three off -road vehicles.

[474] It's shameful.

[475] I was like, I can't even fit shit in the garage because she has got everything I wanted as a kid.

[476] Yeah.

[477] I know.

[478] I know.

[479] I'm like, all I wanted was like a massive trampoline in my backyard.

[480] Like, how am I not going to get that for him the second he can jump, you know?

[481] So I, it is.

[482] It's a balance and obviously very, very high class problems to have.

[483] But, but I do think it creates a challenge just identity -wise.

[484] And, you know, I just like, as a parent, it's like, I just want to put good people into this world.

[485] And it's so scary when you're like, I'm not sure how to do that.

[486] Because my reality as an adult is so different from what my reality as a child was.

[487] Well, and it's evolved at like breakneck pace.

[488] My best childhood friend from Michigan, his son is now 13, super good looking kid, tall, beautiful long hair.

[489] It looks like Robert Plant.

[490] I said, our girl's starting to like him in school.

[491] and he goes, yeah, yeah, some girls and some guys, too.

[492] And I was like, oh, hot dog, really in Michigan?

[493] Like, they're in junior highs and the boys are saying they like him too.

[494] He's like, oh, yeah.

[495] And I'm like, amazing.

[496] That would have not been my prediction from where we came from that that could have happened in 30 years.

[497] And here it has happened.

[498] So it's like whatever you learned and the tricks you and I cobbled together, I don't even know that they apply in so many ways.

[499] All that I heard in that whole story was you saying, Oh, hot dog.

[500] I know.

[501] Hard to get past.

[502] I was like, you just said, oh, hot dog.

[503] Oh, hot digity dog.

[504] This is fantastic.

[505] You know, if you ever worried that that little dax left you, he did not.

[506] He was in there.

[507] Oh, yeah.

[508] No, the, yeah, the Michigan are still in there.

[509] That makes me excited.

[510] Like, that to me is, like, really interesting.

[511] I'm like, oh, great.

[512] Our kids are already so much more evolved than, like, we have a chance at, you know, no matter how much therapy we do.

[513] Yeah.

[514] in so many ways, like, what I would have been passing on is, like, this coat of armor.

[515] Like, okay, well, here's what you do when the guy pushes you.

[516] You got to punch them right now.

[517] You're like, all this shit that tools that are just useless for my kids.

[518] And I have to accept that.

[519] Okay, I want to walk through some fun highlights of your curve.

[520] So 17, you got curves.

[521] And how quickly after that did you get ugly Betty?

[522] So, Real Women Have Curves came out in 2002.

[523] And then the next big thing that I did was, the sisterhood of the traveling pants.

[524] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[525] I made in 2004, but came out 2005.

[526] So it was like a three -year break.

[527] And meanwhile, I did roll women -up curves and then went right into college.

[528] I went to USC and I studied international relations and I was doing school and then like leaving halfway through the semester to do like an independent film.

[529] And I was doing like all these independent films and a couple pilots and still being a full -time student.

[530] And so that was crazy.

[531] And you know, at 16, I'm like, oh my God.

[532] Like, it's been a whole year.

[533] and I haven't had a job.

[534] Like, you know, it's so dumb.

[535] But so Real Women was 2002.

[536] Sisterhood came out in 2005.

[537] And then Ugly Betty was like right after her sisterhood.

[538] And your mom was nervous, right?

[539] She was like, yeah, acting, that's adorable.

[540] But let's get something sustainable.

[541] I think like Monica's parents, was there some initial reservation for obvious reasons?

[542] Yes, totally.

[543] You know, and also the mom and the family thing, it's like, I'm saying.

[544] saving that for the memoir, where I can say what I want.

[545] Well, your dad died in 2010, right?

[546] My dad died in 2012, and so now I just feel like I have carte blanche to say whatever the hell I want.

[547] And then I then feel guilty later.

[548] With your dad, right?

[549] But like, you know, your mom's still alive.

[550] Well, my mom is abnormally cool.

[551] I will say, and I told some story at one point.

[552] And I said some stuff about my childhood and my mom.

[553] Initially was a little bummed.

[554] and I felt really bad and I apologized to her.

[555] And then she called me like three days later and she said, you know what?

[556] I want you to forget what I said.

[557] Like your story is your story.

[558] You have the right to tell your story and don't ever worry about me going forward.

[559] But that's a very rare freedom for a parent to give their kid.

[560] Yeah.

[561] You have a very special mom.

[562] That's very lovely.

[563] No, I have a complicated relationship with my mom and with my family that I don't talk about often and mixed up with all that.

[564] It's like, what's mine to tell?

[565] You know, it sucks.

[566] The courage and bravery when I see people telling parts of their story and elements of their story that involve their family, it's scary.

[567] You know, what I was going to say, just that, like, culturally, and Monica, I don't know if you went through this too, but it's like there's the one thing of, like, no one like us makes it in this industry.

[568] The chances are so small, you know, and I was a really good student.

[569] It was like, you know, get aes, go become a doctor or a lawyer, like just we didn't come this country for you to be like a starving artist like go make something exactly and you're smart so like go do that and the whole time i'm like okay i always got the a's i always went to school i took it very seriously and i did what i loved and and so there was the element of people like us don't make it but then there was the more direct element of people like you don't make it you're not you're not pretty enough you're not sexy enough you don't look like selma hyac you're not like you know so so there was that doubt on top of it, which was like, well, you could make it if you wanted to turn yourself into that thing.

[570] And so for me to say, no, I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it as the person that I am, that was confronting to the whole culture.

[571] And to defend your mom for half a second because I have two kids, it's like, I'm assuming what she thought she was doing was preparing you for the reality of the world and did not want to see your heart broken, but then obviously accidentally broke your heart by expressing that opinion.

[572] Yes, preparing and protecting, which, by the way, is real.

[573] And it is the intention behind what a lot of parents do to and for their children, but is also an excuse for a lot of fucked up shit parents due to their kids.

[574] Sure, of course, yes.

[575] Their own fears are clouding what is good.

[576] Their own fears.

[577] So to your question of, like, was this?

[578] this wasn't like a natural thing for my mother and for my family to, like, support.

[579] No, I think they thought there wasn't a chance in hell that I was going to make it and that, like, I was going to make it as the person that I am, you know, that I would have to contort myself and become something else if I wanted to be successful.

[580] Yeah.

[581] So now that brings up Ugly Betty.

[582] My first thought was I saw billboards.

[583] That's how it became aware of the show because we lived in Los Angeles.

[584] And I started seeing all these billboards and your face was on it and said, Ugly Betty and I was like, I'm not seeing it.

[585] I'm not, I'm not seeing the ugly Betty part of this.

[586] And part of me, the cynic of me was like, that's Hollywood.

[587] That's ugly.

[588] Again, I'm sure that the title of that show meant way more than I have a knowledge of, but I was just like, that's not an ugly.

[589] What is that?

[590] What is that?

[591] Does that make any sense?

[592] Totally, totally.

[593] And without any context, absolutely that makes sense.

[594] I mean, for me, and again, this is one of those scenarios.

[595] where I could look at something and be like, this could go a lot of different ways.

[596] Sure, sure, yeah.

[597] And this has the potential to be something really out of touch and really, like, awful and, like you said, Hollywoodie and bad messages, wrong messages.

[598] But I also read it and learned about this character, watched the original TV show, and saw my perspective, which was like, she doesn't call herself ugly.

[599] Uh -huh.

[600] Ugly Betty is what the world that she's in calls her.

[601] And, you know, she works at this, like, crazy fashion magazine.

[602] It's like a Vogue, right?

[603] She works at Moog.

[604] And when you hear the words Ugly Betty, or her being called ugly, they're coming from these god -awful human beings and characters.

[605] It's all about, like, what they see when they look at her.

[606] But the heart and the soul of the show was this girl who knew what people thought or the people in this particular area thought of her and saw when they looked at her and in spite of it was herself.

[607] And that was obviously something that I could relate to on the deepest, deepest level and felt like the title to me never was the truth.

[608] The title was a perspective and the title was somebody else's perspective.

[609] But the strength of this character is what people will understand when they see the show.

[610] And I think most people who did watch the show, it.

[611] Like, Betty didn't think of herself as ugly.

[612] Betty, Betty, had a boyfriend.

[613] Betty was fucking guys left and right.

[614] You know, she thought she loved hot.

[615] She's like, you know, she was working the braces in the class.

[616] And obviously, was never ugly.

[617] Yeah, yeah.

[618] It was just based on what the expectation of this world.

[619] And so for me, it was like, like what we were talking about before, Monica, like, you kind of see what's available to you.

[620] And your choices are to say, like, nope, not for me. away, which I've done before.

[621] Or you have a choice to look at something and say, hold on, this may even be what the person who wrote this intended, but I see something different.

[622] And I see the possibility and the potential to like take a title, to take a stereotype and to deepen it.

[623] And if I can do that successfully, what would the power of that be?

[624] And, you know, that's hard.

[625] It's not easy to do that.

[626] But I feel like I have had no choice.

[627] in my career because as a woman and as a Latina, really for the majority of my career, the people writing those roles were not people like me. They were people putting on to these characters their perspective of it.

[628] And it was up to me to come in and work really, really hard to advocate for that character and create more space for more humanity, more dimension.

[629] And that's not to say that that's possible in every role.

[630] It's not.

[631] And not everybody has the power on set to do that.

[632] I have been extremely lucky to have the opportunity to be the star of a TV show or the star of a movie and say, this doesn't work for me. Yeah.

[633] It's very evolved and takes a lot of, I think, personal, maybe you're not giving yourself enough credit for the amount of, like, personal integrity it takes because in acting, all you want is a job.

[634] It's like you'll literally cut off your left hand for a job.

[635] When you get it, it feels like to say anything to them about, well, this is good, but maybe we could do it like this or this doesn't resonate with me or I would never say this.

[636] That is very hard to do.

[637] I think it's amazing that you took that on and were able to say like, yeah, I'm going to say yes to this, knowing that I'm not going to do it in their way.

[638] Yeah, yeah.

[639] Now, everyone loved Ugly Betty.

[640] You won Golden Globe.

[641] You won an Emmy.

[642] You won it all.

[643] Was that the sweetest spot of the journey?

[644] Is that like, having dropped out, no, no, no, no, it's not.

[645] The head's shaking now.

[646] I just would imagine, though, if mom had some doubts and you dropped out of college, which I'm sure even you had some fear about, to be on a show that's a hit and that you're winning awards for, was it, did it feel very validating or did you feel vindicated?

[647] Yes.

[648] I mean, of course, on one hand, first of all, I loved this character, loved this world, loved my cast, to have a feeling that like, oh, this character and this story is so needed in the culture right now, I just have a gut instinct that it is going to speak so strongly to so many people, myself included, and then to see that happen.

[649] I mean, it's like the best win ever to be like, yes, I've followed my gut.

[650] I followed my instincts about a big gaping hole that needed to be filled and great.

[651] You know, I loved every minute of being Betty.

[652] I really did.

[653] It was so much work.

[654] It was maybe the hardest work I'll ever do in my life, but I loved it.

[655] The hoopla and the whirlwind that happened around it was challenging and exhausting and my whole life changed.

[656] Yeah, that being famous element?

[657] Is that what you're referring to?

[658] Yeah, it wasn't really the being famous.

[659] It was what it did to my personal relationships, what it did to my family.

[660] relationships, you know, I'm working 20 hours a day on set and then like having to navigate everybody else's projections of what's happening to me, you know, and not everyone else like strangers on on Instagram, like my family, like my mom, like my siblings, like, you know, and my husband, who I've now been with for 15 years, at the time, we'd been together one year.

[661] Oh, that's a big ride to take.

[662] Yeah, we'd been together one year and then boom, everything changed.

[663] So that was crazy.

[664] It's like this guy that I really like, but like I don't see him for three days on end and he's working.

[665] I mean, like, you know, is this going to survive this?

[666] Was a partner, it could trigger a lot of fears.

[667] I was with a gal for nine years when I started working.

[668] And now in retrospect, there's no playbook for that.

[669] So I got pretty self -important, pretty quick.

[670] All of a sudden, we had been dead equal.

[671] And now I made all the money.

[672] That was a new dynamic.

[673] Like, there was just a lot of new dynamics that I didn't really, A, have anyone to ask advice from or couldn't humble myself enough to ask for advice.

[674] But I certainly did a terrible job navigating that.

[675] Totally, because it's so hard.

[676] And so when you ask the question, like, winning these awards was this like the sweet spot?

[677] And it's like, yes, on one hand, it's what an amazing experience that how many people get to live that.

[678] And who knows if I'll ever get to live it again?

[679] But there was so much drama and so many challenging things happening in my personal life.

[680] And also, I was a kid.

[681] I was 22, 23 years old.

[682] Oh, my God.

[683] And still figuring out, like, what mattered to me and what was important to me. And also, when the thing that you were striving for, your whole life happens.

[684] And you're like, but I still feel scared.

[685] And I still feel not secure.

[686] And I still feel like a hack.

[687] and I feel like people are going to learn this about me. I said this in an interview before, so it's not breaking news, but I haven't said it many times.

[688] But when I won the Emmy, I can't bring myself to go back and watch that because the only thing I remember about being on that stage accepting that Emmy was the feeling that no one in the room thought I deserved it.

[689] Uh -huh, uh -huh, uh -huh.

[690] And that, that's a shame.

[691] What was your narrative?

[692] What were you thinking they were thinking?

[693] Like, she doesn't really deserve that.

[694] What is she really doing in that role?

[695] That role is not interesting enough.

[696] It's not dark enough.

[697] It's not edgy enough.

[698] Like, you know, all of the bullshit of like, oh, she got it because it's a good story, not because she deserved it.

[699] Or like whatever, which, you know, doesn't enter your mind on its own.

[700] It's like there were people in my life sort of perpetuating those narratives and making me feel like I hadn't earned this moment.

[701] Well, some people in your life are probably getting very scared that you're going to outgrow them.

[702] Totally.

[703] They are subconsciously trying to lower you so you don't leave them, right?

[704] That's a very unhealthy, but natural response to that.

[705] Yes.

[706] And so, you know, when I look back at that time, my heart aches for that 22 -year -old girl who, like, didn't get to really enjoy those moments.

[707] Experience it, yeah, take it in.

[708] Like, as a 36 -year -old, on one hand, maybe those moments would mean less at this point in my life.

[709] But on the other hand, keep them in context of, like, my whole life, that I have a full, whole life and this is a part of it.

[710] Versus being a 22 -year -old where overnight, this thing and this character and this journey and this career moment was everything, morning, noon, and night.

[711] Your whole identity almost.

[712] Yeah, and it's too much.

[713] there's no perspective, there's no context, there's no grounding in that.

[714] And especially when the people around you are acting like children too.

[715] Like when there's no one around you saying like everything's going to be okay.

[716] So it's complicated.

[717] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[718] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[719] So when Ugly Betty ended, did you have sophomore musician fear?

[720] Like did you feel this incredible?

[721] pressure of like, oh, I got to choose perfectly.

[722] Yes, I had an identity crisis.

[723] I started Betty when I was 21.

[724] Like 21, you're, you're a child.

[725] Oh, yeah.

[726] In my case, worse, yeah.

[727] And I think I handled it to the best of my ability and I've always been mature, but it's a very weird experience to have to grow up and find yourself in that circumstance.

[728] And so, you know, in a way, when I came out of Ugly Betty and Ugly Betty ended, there was all this growing that I needed to do as a human being.

[729] Well, the job is so consuming.

[730] You almost push pause on your development, right?

[731] It's so consuming.

[732] Yeah, that there's no time to, like, make mistakes and learn things.

[733] This is like so shameful, but I think vulnerability can be a powerful thing.

[734] And I say this just because, you know, to your point of like what people's perception of success is versus what it feels like.

[735] I actually had the thought, and I think I said this out loud to my best friend when Betty ended.

[736] I was terrified that my friends wouldn't love me because I wasn't on a show.

[737] Wow.

[738] Because I would.

[739] And like that is, like that was an actual fear that I had.

[740] Of course.

[741] The show was over and the people that I had made proud like wouldn't have a reason to love me anymore.

[742] That's when you get into fucking therapy.

[743] That's when you're like, when you're like, oh, I need to figure some shit out, you know?

[744] Well, lucky for you, that was your conclusion.

[745] Because so for many actors, that's not.

[746] It's just they hop right back on the hamster wheel and try to, you know, I think it's actually unique that someone goes, ooh, this is not a desirable outcome.

[747] I shouldn't be feeling this way.

[748] And I need to figure out how to solve it internally as opposed to externally.

[749] Totally.

[750] And I was lucky enough to have some really amazing friends around me and wonderful human beings who really helped me through it and helped me see myself.

[751] And, you know, some people are lucky enough to have amazing families and amazing family members who are their rock and help them evolve and help them feel safe and secure.

[752] And some people aren't, you know, and I feel so lucky that I was able to kind of create a support system.

[753] of friends and people who were so amazing and helped me really find myself in the midst of like an industry and a time that like, it's just not set up to do that for you.

[754] You know, Ugly Betty ended 10 years ago yesterday.

[755] Oh, wow.

[756] Wow, wow.

[757] It's been a decade, which is crazy.

[758] And it's funny because 10 years later, I'm now saying goodbye to Superstore, which was like the next thing on whatever my career path.

[759] And I had five glorious, magnificent, wonderful, fun, fulfilling, amazing years on Superstore.

[760] And I feel great about moving on.

[761] And the difference between what it feels like to be making a choice about what I want and what I need at this point in my life and how untethered and how scared and how insecure I felt 10 years ago, to me it's like, that's the same.

[762] success.

[763] Like, that's the win.

[764] That, yeah, that's the thing that'll make you like who you see in the mirror.

[765] Yeah.

[766] Like, could you imagine if 10 years later I was as scared today as I was when that ended, like that would be the tragedy.

[767] So to me, like, regardless of the success and the awards and the reviews and how successful was that show and do people love it and do people still talk about it?

[768] It's like, no, my personal success is that I now know my value and I know I'm a badass and I know regardless of what ends, there will always be more for me because it's coming from inside of me and I'm not looking for other people to, like, validate me. For me, I'm a greedy little piggy.

[769] Is it hard to walk away from the steady paycheck?

[770] Of course, especially as a kid who grew up with nothing.

[771] You know, like, there's always that voice.

[772] It's like, who do you think you are walking away from money and walking away from a job?

[773] You almost feel like you're going to jinx yourself, don't you?

[774] I do sometimes.

[775] If I say no to that money, I'm going to lose everything.

[776] Totally.

[777] And who knows what my next.

[778] But that's that scarcity mentality that keeps us small, right?

[779] That like it's such a double -edged sword because to go back to when Betty ended, like I stopped having a dog walker.

[780] I was like, you know, I've been making money.

[781] I've been making money for four years.

[782] I was fine.

[783] Like I could afford to like take a year off or not make any money for a year.

[784] And literally like the week after Betty ended, I fired my dog walker.

[785] Because there was this like the poor girl inside who would like scrounge together coins for a McDonald's cheeseburger was like, oh, hell no. Like money's not coming in.

[786] Nothing's going out.

[787] Yeah.

[788] But if that doesn't change, like if that scarcity mentality doesn't change to fit the reality, then your choices are small.

[789] To be thinking about my possibilities in the same small, terrified, warranted way that I used to think about them.

[790] Like, that would just be doing a disservice to all the, everything that I've built for myself, you know?

[791] Yeah, yeah.

[792] It'd be dishonoring it.

[793] Yeah.

[794] Now, what are you going to do next?

[795] There's a number of things.

[796] But like I said, it's like we're in the midst of this global, you know, thing that, like, nobody knows how it's going to impact the global economy, how it's going to impact our country, how it's going to impact our industry.

[797] So, like, sure, I have plans.

[798] And I'm on phone calls, you know, all day about those plans.

[799] But I'm also humble enough in this moment to realize, like, nobody knows anything.

[800] So I can say loosely that I love directing.

[801] And that is definitely a path that I want to keep pursuing.

[802] As a director, your brain is firing, like, all day, every day.

[803] And it's great and it's fun and it's exciting.

[804] It's very different from showing up, rolling, wearing ugs and holding a coffee cup.

[805] and being like, where do I stand?

[806] You know, it's very different.

[807] So directing, continuing to produce, executive produce, develops television shows with other really exciting writers and voices and continuing to act.

[808] And so all of those paths are still interesting and exciting to me. And like I said, yes, there are things that I'm building, but who knows what's going to happen in the next year or so.

[809] Okay.

[810] So my last question is, is Floresy.

[811] Lebag, the greatest thing of the last decade.

[812] I mean, is it?

[813] Oh, I love it.

[814] I loved it.

[815] What an inspirational.

[816] The second season, I literally watched, like, in a whole, like, I didn't move.

[817] I just sat down and watched all six episodes, like, in one go.

[818] Yeah.

[819] Inspirational and, like, upsetting.

[820] Like, doesn't it?

[821] Yeah, my ultimate compliment I can give people is, like, I start hating them halfway truth.

[822] I'm like, oh, I can't compete with this.

[823] I don't have this level of talent in any of the departments.

[824] Isn't that so awful that, like, as an artist, we're such narcissists.

[825] I'm just like, I went from being like, oh, my God, I love her.

[826] She's so funny.

[827] She's so funny.

[828] I love her.

[829] I'm like, how old is she?

[830] Don't look up how much.

[831] She's just going to make you mad.

[832] And I'm like, oh, I hate her.

[833] Oh, yeah.

[834] That's me and Donald Glover.

[835] I'm like, awesome.

[836] So cool.

[837] Your music's perfect.

[838] Atlanta's one of the best shows ever.

[839] And wonderful.

[840] Good for you.

[841] Yeah, exactly.

[842] So I'm not above petty rivalry with people who don't even know my names.

[843] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[844] I'm with you.

[845] Well, America, you're so wonderful and joyful to talk to.

[846] I hope we get to do it in person one time.

[847] Yeah, totally.

[848] I was looking forward to this.

[849] I love the show and I've listened to so many episodes.

[850] And I have to say, like, I don't know that much about like your body of work, but from the outside, I just wouldn't expect you to be such like a thoughtful, soulful guy from like a really bad not knowing you at all perspective in the world.

[851] And it was like such a pleasure to discover your podcast and be like, oh my God, I love how deep you are and vulnerable and honest.

[852] And Monica, you make him better.

[853] Oh, much, much better.

[854] Yeah, I think the podcast answers the question for a lot of women like, oh, now I kind understand why Kristen's with him.

[855] America, we love you.

[856] We hope to talk to you again.

[857] And good luck with this new baby.

[858] I'm excited for you to have a little subway sandwich in your bed again.

[859] Oh, thank you.

[860] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[861] America.

[862] America, who was wonderful.

[863] God, I liked her so much.

[864] So smart.

[865] So cookie.

[866] She's so cookie.

[867] I love cookies.

[868] You love cookies.

[869] So much.

[870] Yeah, she was great.

[871] I'm so glad we got her.

[872] It took a while.

[873] She's a busy bee.

[874] Busy, busy bee.

[875] She is.

[876] So we had to seize.

[877] the pandemic, if you will.

[878] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[879] Well, we've gotten lucky with a few folks on this pandemic.

[880] Yeah.

[881] We just got off the phone with somebody that we would have normally probably never been with.

[882] Go party.

[883] It's your birthday.

[884] Don't please.

[885] But anyway, so America was lovely, and I want to be best friends with her.

[886] I want to talk to her about all kinds of things.

[887] Yeah, she seemed like she would be in your, like, aspirational camp, people you'd like to be.

[888] Yeah.

[889] Yeah, she's speaking some truths that.

[890] I think need to be spoken about.

[891] Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it.

[892] And maybe this is the first?

[893] I had no facts.

[894] Zero facts.

[895] Zero facts.

[896] Zero facts.

[897] It was just like our opinions?

[898] Yeah.

[899] I mean, it was a lot of introspective thoughts as opposed to facts.

[900] Now, I'm not saying that I didn't miss any.

[901] There's, I'm sure, a few that got through the sifting screen.

[902] Yeah, probably because I was so interested in re -listened.

[903] that I may have not been thinking.

[904] It is fun.

[905] I occasionally have that.

[906] Often when it's like a really dense person.

[907] Yeah.

[908] And I don't mean dense like dumb.

[909] Dents like they were pedantic and their breath of knowledge.

[910] Yeah.

[911] That while I'm interviewing them, I'm like swimming as fast as I can to keep up with them and I can't really enjoy them.

[912] And then I'll listen to them and I can just listen as a listener.

[913] Yeah, that's nice.

[914] Oh my God.

[915] I love listening to this person.

[916] Talk.

[917] Yeah.

[918] When I'm editing, I'm listening.

[919] very intently like I'm listening for ums and uh yeah that sounds I'm listening for um so it's very rare for me to feel like uh oh there were 10 minutes where I wasn't listening that carefully you're just a fan not an editor of the show yeah that's the dream though isn't it yeah that may have happened so I'm sorry if I miss facts that's how I felt when I was directing Bradley Cooper in certain scenes and hit and run I would just be watching in the monitor and I'd forget to yell cut because I literally just get sucked in I thought I was watching a movie or something real and I'd be like oh yeah I'm supposed to yell cut I think the scene's over that's very cool so there's no fact no let's talk about sifting screens I just said it got through the sifting screen okay what thoughts do you have when you see on TV the way they mine for gold do you have any thoughts I have thoughts on most things and I have no thoughts on that okay well I have to imagine it's probably the most tedious job on planet earth because they're going through like millions of cubic yards of material to find like two fucking specks of gold and i guess it's worth it to them the gold when you just think about things that you're like pre -disposed to be good or bad at well i'm the opposite of whatever that is i need like an immediate return and gain on any effort put forth.

[920] I am, like, tedium is my kryptonite.

[921] That's funny.

[922] I was just asking someone what their kryptonite was today.

[923] Oh.

[924] Everyone has at least one piece of kryptonite.

[925] Yeah, yeah.

[926] Is it in pieces?

[927] It can be.

[928] I think kryptonite is actually, well, I'm not a D .C. historian, but my memory of it is he's from the planet Krypton, Superman.

[929] Uh -huh.

[930] And on his planet, he didn't have superpowers.

[931] Do you know that?

[932] I didn't.

[933] I know nothing.

[934] It has something to do with our gravitational field and some other aspects that make Mr. Superman super here.

[935] So the kryptonite is a chunk of the planet.

[936] Oh.

[937] And when they bring it around him, it neutralizes his superpowers that.

[938] Oh.

[939] I almost said the U .S. is giving him.

[940] But the Earth, he did live in the U .S. Yes.

[941] Oh, I see.

[942] Okay.

[943] Oh, wow.

[944] There's a really interesting metaphor about that.

[945] If you think about it, I've never thought.

[946] about it.

[947] But we just had this long conversation.

[948] I don't know if we retold it on here in an interview.

[949] And I don't want to belabor the point.

[950] But we were talking about the potential of going to Atlanta for a live show and how that would be hard for you as going to Detroit was hard for me because people I knew in childhood are there seeing me. And it just brings up all these thoughts of like authenticity or who am I now, whatever.

[951] There's a neat metaphor about 100 % yeah where you came from is your downfall neutralizing your supervisor because i think people leave their home and they become a new identity away from their family and then when they go around their family they have to reassume that identity and sometimes there's discomfort in that and then likewise they leave their town and they become something else yeah i guess kryptonite is kind of like what humbles you yeah do you think that they knew that was the metaphor probably they're smart who's they the cartoon artist that's why i don't think it's cartoon artists in the 50s was like, of course, of course.

[952] Stan Lee's was probably quite bright.

[953] I guess it just seems deep for a comic book, but I guess what do I know about comic books?

[954] This is why comic book people love comic books.

[955] That's right.

[956] Anyways, what a great metaphor.

[957] Yeah, that is.

[958] I was thinking about the person like in high school who was like a wallflower and then they become fancy and successful.

[959] And then when they go back to that, high school.

[960] reunion and they have all these fantasies, right, where they're going to show everyone that they're this person now.

[961] I bet the second they get around them, they feel like the old person.

[962] Of course.

[963] Of course.

[964] Doesn't that happen to you?

[965] I've never gone.

[966] I think I have responsibly assessed what my motivation to go to my high school reunion would be.

[967] Yeah.

[968] And I decided that wasn't a good motivation to go somewhere.

[969] Yeah.

[970] So yes, I was tempted to like parade through my high school reunion, like look at me and point to every girl I like that.

[971] didn't like me and go, see, you should have liked me. Sure.

[972] And I was like, that is no reason to go somewhere.

[973] Yeah.

[974] The ego is so fucking stupid and fragile.

[975] For my high school tenure reunion, I literally had the thought was so embarrassing.

[976] Oh, I can't wait.

[977] But I had the thought, I'm not successful enough to go back yet.

[978] Yeah.

[979] Uh -huh.

[980] Uh -huh.

[981] By the way, at my tenure, I had the same thought.

[982] It's so embarrassing.

[983] But now I feel good in that I'm not like, oh, I can go now.

[984] Like, I don't feel that.

[985] I don't feel like, oh, that was so dumb.

[986] I should have gone.

[987] I should have seen my friends.

[988] And I should have said hi to all those people who I never get to see.

[989] Yeah.

[990] And what a waste.

[991] I have to imagine.

[992] I'm just going to guess that some percentages here.

[993] I have to imagine the high school reunion thing.

[994] Only like 30 % are just thrilled to go there.

[995] And like they said this great experience and they can't wait to catch up with everyone.

[996] I have to imagine the other 70 % is going in there, either feeling like they've underperformed or they overperformed, which is like, why even be put in a situation where you've got to evaluate whether you're over underdelivered?

[997] Who is big enough to go if they feel like they've underperformed?

[998] If you feel like you've just performed, great.

[999] I think you'd go and you'd be like, sure.

[1000] But if you feel like you have underperformed, and that takes a really big person to still show up.

[1001] And I did feel that at the time.

[1002] Yes.

[1003] I agree.

[1004] Yeah, people like rent fancy cars to drive to reunions.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] It's sad.

[1007] But you know what I really, I've talked about on here?

[1008] What I really did want was a junior high reunion.

[1009] Yeah, you tried to make one a couple years ago.

[1010] Yeah, I realized it was whatever, that 90th year anniversary of eighth grade, seventh grade.

[1011] And I was going to, and I even went so far as a call the junior high and see how much it costs to rent the place.

[1012] So I wanted to have the party there.

[1013] And then I just, I didn't execute.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] That's really what happened.

[1016] I just ran out of momentum.

[1017] That's all right.

[1018] And I never pulled it off.

[1019] But I really would love a junior high reunion.

[1020] But again, in junior high, I was among the 30 % that just would love to see everyone.

[1021] And I had a great time.

[1022] I got nothing to prove.

[1023] I just want to see everyone.

[1024] Right.

[1025] But I don't have that relationship with high school.

[1026] See, that's what's weird and even more upsetting is there's so many people that when I go home to Georgia for Christmas that I don't see that I would love.

[1027] to see for an hour at this thing like a many and the fact that I let this idea of success like stop me from doing that yeah is a big bummer well in my experience too like at the 10 year reunion there were a handful of guys that were quick starters so like they had left high school they went to Michigan state this one asshole in particular I totally dislike he went down to North Carolina or South Carolina he got some job right where he's like a count man or something.

[1028] And I don't know what he made, but let's say it was like 150 grand a year.

[1029] And everyone in my town knew about it.

[1030] He was crushing.

[1031] Like the last thing I want to do is go to my fucking high school and watch this guy peacock around.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] Or you could be proud of him.

[1034] I'm not.

[1035] And I turned out to be a piece of shit.

[1036] But he was a quick starter.

[1037] Looked for a minute like he was crushing.

[1038] Yeah.

[1039] Fucking captain of this sports team.

[1040] And now he's crushing.

[1041] Oh, that's, ugh.

[1042] Ugh.

[1043] Not very compassionate, but okay.

[1044] Yeah, I have no compassion for this certain person.

[1045] Isn't that interesting?

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] It's all my insecurities.

[1048] Yeah.

[1049] I will pull over and help anyone dealing with a flat tire.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] I have a good track record of this.

[1052] I'd blow right by him if I saw him changing a tire.

[1053] Oh, yeah.

[1054] Why?

[1055] What do you do to you?

[1056] What do you do to you that was so bad?

[1057] Everything I hated about jock popular culture.

[1058] It's like a bad, toxic masculinity.

[1059] fucking bullied a guy's piece of shit.

[1060] Yeah, and he probably had a lot of reasons for being old.

[1061] There was probably a bunch of stuff underneath that caused him to be that.

[1062] You're right.

[1063] And now he's an adult person.

[1064] You could have some compassion for him.

[1065] And now I think he's reaped what he sowed when I heard for the grapevine.

[1066] Yikes.

[1067] Yeah, I still hold on to some grudges.

[1068] People might say that about you.

[1069] They most certainly do.

[1070] Isn't that a bummer?

[1071] Don't you wish they could be evolved enough to know that people can change and even help them do that?

[1072] There are people that disliked me for a myriad of reasons.

[1073] Some of them warranted.

[1074] Some of them not.

[1075] And I'm fine with that.

[1076] I'm not fine with the ones who I owe apologies to for sure.

[1077] But the ones who hated me because I wore ponytail and I put a, I wore headbands and I had long hair and I dressed as a tinkerbell in the school play.

[1078] Like those people that hated me because I was not afraid to fuck with the gender norms and stuff, which there was a good deal of them.

[1079] I don't give a shit if those people dislike me or not.

[1080] Right, right.

[1081] I just mean you're evolved enough to know that people aren't who they were in high school.

[1082] So to have a little more compassion for maybe who they've grown into or who they're trying to grow into maybe would be nice.

[1083] Oh, it would be very evolved of me. I aspire to it.

[1084] But the row of guys who screamed, you're a fucking faggot to me as I ran by in my Tinkerbell outfit during the play, I'm fine with those guys not liking me. I don't need any closure with those guys.

[1085] I mean, it just sounds like the opposite of everything you say all the time.

[1086] Oh, yeah.

[1087] I just told you I aspired to.

[1088] I have no moral high ground in this.

[1089] Right.

[1090] I'm telling you I'm being very trite.

[1091] No. Well, you're just holding resentments, which you always say is...

[1092] Well, it's cancers to you.

[1093] Yeah, yeah.

[1094] But you know, in truth, I don't ever think about...

[1095] I'm thinking about those guys right now, because we're talking about going to a high school reunion.

[1096] big group of guys who was yelling you fucking faggot at me. And yes, I don't have any compassion for them in this moment.

[1097] But I don't ever think about them in bed at night.

[1098] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1099] That makes sense.

[1100] Okay, but kryptonite.

[1101] Yeah, tedium.

[1102] Tidium.

[1103] Anything tedious.

[1104] Yeah, anything tedious.

[1105] I'm out.

[1106] Like, the notion of sifting through 99 .99999 % of something to find something, nothing's worth that to me. Yeah, is there anything worth that?

[1107] I'm trying to think.

[1108] The only thing I would dig through at that proportion is to get my kids from somewhere.

[1109] Sure.

[1110] I would look all seven billion humans on planet Earth in the face to find my children.

[1111] Of course.

[1112] And that's it.

[1113] Yeah.

[1114] How do you feel about TDM?

[1115] Ambivalent?

[1116] No, I don't like it.

[1117] I do not like it either.

[1118] But it just depends on what the reward is, you know?

[1119] Mm -hmm.

[1120] Like, have you ever had a, have you ever, like, because I've done this a bunch of times where I've taken on projects that were much bigger than I was.

[1121] Anticipating.

[1122] Yes.

[1123] And then you literally have to get into like a Buddhist mindset where you're like one panel at a time.

[1124] I'm going to paint one panel at a time.

[1125] I'm not going to think about all the panels that I have to paint.

[1126] I've had to have that talk with myself a bazillion times.

[1127] Well, I mean, this circles back to what we were just talking about with list editing, the show and listening to it.

[1128] It can be an incredibly tedious process because I will have spent 10 minutes and I've gone two minutes in the show.

[1129] show and it's like oh my god like there is no there's no end it can start to get very like overwhelming in your head yeah so you do have to like very much compartmentalize as you say and just go like literally second to second well and you and i shared one experience which was you were in and out but you were part of a lot of it was i decided i'm going to paint the fence around the new house yeah point is is i was like yeah i'll paint that fucking fence i'm not going to hire someone to paint this fence how long could it take to paint a fence my goodness The fence is like, I think I figured out, was like 300 and some feet long.

[1130] And there's a goddamn post every four inches.

[1131] Oh, yeah.

[1132] And there were so many moments where I was like, if I think about a little of a dent I've made in this fence in three days, I'll kill myself.

[1133] Oh, yeah.

[1134] Do you remember that?

[1135] Of course.

[1136] It's memorable.

[1137] I remember it very well.

[1138] I think about it every time I drive by that fence.

[1139] It was hard, but it's that specific job because it had a lot of layers.

[1140] Like you first had to go through every single post and clean it.

[1141] Scrub it of rust.

[1142] Scrape it.

[1143] Scrape it.

[1144] Yes.

[1145] And that in itself was horrible.

[1146] It was maddening.

[1147] Then to go back and spray paint.

[1148] Well, wipe it off first.

[1149] Well, yeah, that's part of the cleaning process, but yes.

[1150] Wire bristle brush work.

[1151] Yep.

[1152] Then paint it and then layers.

[1153] I don't remember how many.

[1154] We did, yeah, coats, yeah.

[1155] And then maybe there was like a seal layer, maybe.

[1156] I don't remember that part.

[1157] But it was like, oh, my God.

[1158] So even once you made it through once, you weren't done.

[1159] You hadn't even barely started.

[1160] That was awful.

[1161] Don't make me do that again.

[1162] I don't want to do that.

[1163] You would never now.

[1164] And also, I will tell you, even then, I was like, why are we doing this?

[1165] Like, can't we just hire someone to do this?

[1166] You have the money to do that.

[1167] and this is wasting all of our time.

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] So I do think, unless it's something that I feel that I must do myself or the end result will be worse.

[1170] Yeah.

[1171] I'm happy to like pass it off.

[1172] Oh, there's no way that we did a better job than a professional.

[1173] Exactly.

[1174] Yeah, yeah.

[1175] We did a worse job and wasted our time.

[1176] Yeah.

[1177] And that just goes to identity.

[1178] Like my identity is someone who does a lot of the shitty work myself for the things I own.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] Because my dad did none of his maintenance.

[1181] I guess is probably what's driving the whole thing.

[1182] Yeah.

[1183] Well, I think you also probably just have guilt about having this big house.

[1184] And so you feel like you have to like earn it somehow or something.

[1185] Sure, sure, sure.

[1186] Well, also, I do, unlike you, like I just said, I do every time I drive by the fence, I go, God damn, I painted that fence.

[1187] You think about it, yeah.

[1188] The attic, the fact that no one was involved, I just tore that wall out.

[1189] And it looks like shit.

[1190] There's fucking cords hanging.

[1191] But I'm like, yeah, yeah, I just handled the whole thing.

[1192] I didn't have to get anyone to do it.

[1193] I get self -esteem out of that.

[1194] Yeah.

[1195] But for some reason, that stuff fills me with pride.

[1196] Yeah, everyone has different pride factors, I guess.

[1197] Yeah, there's something I'd turn over to someone else that you would never.

[1198] Yeah, again, I think because for me, it's things that I feel the result won't be as good.

[1199] Yeah, if it's not me. Yeah.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] Or maybe well and right, or maybe well and right, but not as good.

[1202] There is a difference.

[1203] Mm -hmm.

[1204] Yeah, anyway, that's a, that's a, that's not.

[1205] That's really all for America.

[1206] Okay, well, I guess I wish we had sent some facts, but not really, because we had plenty of to talk about.

[1207] Yeah, there's always stuff to talk about.

[1208] And I got heated about those guys I still don't like.

[1209] Yeah, it's okay that you don't like them.

[1210] I just don't want you to be holding onto something that's old for no reason.

[1211] Yeah.

[1212] I'm also aware of the fact that, like, I wanted a lot of attention.

[1213] Uh -huh.

[1214] And that's the price you pay for wanting a lot of attention.

[1215] I deserve that.

[1216] That's what you get.

[1217] Well, you don't deserve to be called me names.

[1218] and no, no one deserves that.

[1219] Right, but it's like, there's a reason people are afraid to live out loud, and this is the reason.

[1220] So if you choose to live out loud, you can't act shocked that that's the result.

[1221] I guess that's what I'm saying.

[1222] It's not like I was doing nothing keeping my head down in the sand, and then I get, you know.

[1223] Yeah, I know.

[1224] But still, it's not an excuse for people to treat others horribly.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] It's not nice, you guys who aren't listening.

[1227] I got a hunch that the guys that were yelling the effort, for it at me probably don't listen to this podcast they might though you don't know that's true people change all right i love you love you follow armchair expert on the wondery app amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to every episode of armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining wondry plus in the wondry app or on apple podcasts before you go tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.