Wretch 32: How To Build Unstoppable Self-Belief

[0] Music is Game of Thrones, bro.

[1] You see Game of Thrones, they kill the main character.

[2] Do you get what I'm saying?

[3] They don't mind doing that.

[4] Webley Mix, a nice, a wretch, three, too.

[5] Together we're going to make history.

[6] I think the best turning point for me was when I was 16 and my mum threw me out.

[7] She feels like it was a harsh thing to do.

[8] But I'm like, at the end of the day, if you don't do that, for me at 16, I don't become wretch.

[9] We signed for a single, which was Tractor.

[10] That was my ringtone.

[11] Twin said to me, he was like, this song's going to change.

[12] your life.

[13] And then yeah, bam, it goes in the charts and everything changed after that.

[14] The obsession made me better, made me more hungry.

[15] When you find your passion, yeah, you find your calling, bro.

[16] You're not fair to no one.

[17] Everyone comes second, bro.

[18] My daughter, she has no recognition of living with me. I just became a monster, man. You can't skip what's important, man. How many we get 80 years maybe now, your legacy can triple that, bro.

[19] Have the right one.

[20] What if it just hadn't worked out?

[21] Had to.

[22] So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO.

[23] I hope nobody's listening.

[24] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[25] Rich, take me back to Tottenham when you were growing up.

[26] I'm a big believer.

[27] And to be honest, I always start these podcasts in the same way.

[28] Because I came to learn when I was younger, the importance of those early years on shaping who we become as adults.

[29] And someone said this wonderful quote to me that were actually just children living out the stories we told ourselves.

[30] about ourselves long ago.

[31] So take me back to Tottenham where you grew up and the context in which made you the man you are today.

[32] Grew up in Seven Sisters in a state called Tibetan.

[33] Tottenham was just notorious in it for a lot of madness, a lot of crime, a lot of this, a lot of that.

[34] And I think for me, just growing up and learning how to navigate through that, how to understand who you are, what you're here for.

[35] And also my parents and grandparents and all that, they were proper embedded in, you know, fighting against police brutality.

[36] So I always had a lot of understanding about certain things that were probably above my age.

[37] I feel like I was always someone that could get along with everyone.

[38] Like whoever a cool kid, uncool kid, whatever.

[39] Like, I could always have something to speak about with anyone.

[40] And I think throughout life, that's always helped me and it's always been beneficial.

[41] But it therefore started when I was young.

[42] In their estate, just like the regular stuff, man, that was happening.

[43] Do you get what I'm saying?

[44] Like a lot of badness, um, stabbing, a lot of this, a lot of that.

[45] But we just, when we were very young, we just wanted to play football.

[46] You know what I mean?

[47] Wanted to play out, play football, play games.

[48] But as you get older, you know, you start seeing other things, hearing other things and sometimes even, not even, I wouldn't say not unwillingly, sometimes you're just, you become a part of things because you're there on the day or you're there at that time.

[49] And I think a lot of, then early scenarios kind of shaped who I thought I was going to become at that time.

[50] The best turning point for me was when I was 16 and my mum threw me out because I now had to be the adult that I thought I was.

[51] So before that, I was, you know, walking around the house, had a bravado, had an attitude for it.

[52] I was a big man, thought I was a bad boy, thought I was whatever.

[53] And, you know, all the time my mom's kind of like single mom, you know, There's, at that time, there's two older sisters and two younger sisters and myself in the house.

[54] And just like, at that time, just feeling like I'm feeling myself a bit too much.

[55] And my mum was always like, look, I know you feel you're beyond your years, but you're not, you're actually 15 or you're actually 14.

[56] And if you continue moving like this, you're going to be forced to be 21 at 16.

[57] Obviously, as a you, you're not really taking it in, taking it serious.

[58] One day I come home and my bags are on the door.

[59] So I'm kind of like, all right, cool.

[60] And I'm like mad pride for as well.

[61] So at the time, my sisters were like, look, just have a conversation with her.

[62] She's going to sue it out, just calm down a bit, whatever, whatever.

[63] But I'm just feeling myself still too much.

[64] So I'm kind of just like, whatever, I took my bags, went to my cousin's house for a little while.

[65] Then I just felt like I was just in other people's space, obviously their family, but I just felt like I'm in the way.

[66] I don't like feeling like that.

[67] Went to my sisters.

[68] still did feel like I was in the way even though to her she'll say I wasn't but like I just don't want to be a burden to anyone so then yeah just went to the housing and then yeah 16 years old I was in my place and I learned so much man and I think that's the best the best thing anyone's ever done for me in my life why did she throw you out?

[69] I was too too viby man I just thought I was too I thought I was it do you get what I'm saying and I think as well, it's like when you think you're it and you're making a little money on the roads and whatever and you're giving someone money here and there, you're thinking you're doing your part.

[70] So maybe I give you 200 pound this month, maybe next month I don't give you anything.

[71] Maybe the next month I give you a grand maybe the next two months I don't give you anything but I'm always reverting back to the fact that yeah, but I gave you, yeah, but I gave you or yeah, but I've done this or yeah, but I've done that.

[72] But what you don't realize until you're an adult is every month, the bills are coming.

[73] They don't come staggered like you're giving the money so it's not like she can't just pay 600 pound rent in January and nothing in February do you get what I'm saying?

[74] So it's like but you don't have that understanding as a child you need to be an adult to have that understanding like these bills are coming regardless and I think even though she was saying it to me I was still you're not like you're still calculating what you're giving like no but I gave or but I've done this or I've done that it's not enough the bills don't work like that, being 16 and learning them harsh lessons, it's just harsh reality.

[75] And I was just like, bro, I actually thought I was a big man. And it's like, like, years, I was angry with my mum for a bit at the time, as you would be.

[76] Not speaking to her.

[77] Kind of, like, kind of trying to be like that.

[78] But, you know, like, letters are still going there, so he's still going there, ask my sister, yeah, give me the letters, bring out the letters, don't really want to go in, whatever.

[79] Still, you know, being attached to pride and being attached to too much attitude and I just had to like humble myself one day and I'd just be like, do you know what, mum, that was the best thing anyone's ever done for me. And she was like, to this day, like, when she hears me say it, she still, it's still upsets her because she feels like it was, you know, a very, a harsh thing to do.

[80] But I'm like, at the end of the day, if you don't do that for me at 16, I don't become wretch at 20 odd because he's too comfortable.

[81] Wretch comes out of being uncomfortable, being back to the corner, being forced to be, you know, to be a provider, being forced to be the man of his house.

[82] rather than thinking he's the man of his mom's house.

[83] The man of your house.

[84] Did you know your father?

[85] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[86] Did you have a relationship with him?

[87] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[88] My dad was very, very, very serious, man. Very serious, very serious, very strict, very well respected because of, you know, in the area with all the police brutality and all of that, all the things that they fought for and still fight for him, my uncle and my nan.

[89] But just very, very, very harsh, very harsh.

[90] and the DJ as well.

[91] So old school, you remember, they used to string up sound systems.

[92] Like my mom's house, like all the speakers throughout the passage, one of the rooms, all the speakers, like all of us had to share because the speakers had their own room.

[93] You get what I'm saying?

[94] I'm like, mom, can't I at least sleep in the speaker?

[95] Like, I'm sharing with my sisters.

[96] I need a little space or whatever.

[97] But yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah, good relationship, obviously him and my mom parted ways.

[98] And, yeah, still kept a relationship.

[99] Like, I don't have that, I don't know my dad thing.

[100] Like, I know my dad, yeah.

[101] And your grandmother, one of the things you said about her was that watching her take care of your grandfather who had cancer was what a really pivotal moment, watching how sort of caring she was with him and right up until the point that he passed away.

[102] You know, like, when you're young, your first experiences of death are, like, so severe, man, like so impactful not that not that it gets any easier but you understand it more i think when you get older and i just think at the time i don't i don't i've never understood strength until i met that situation with my grandman and it was just how she how she was you know like caribbean so when i'd come around she's like make sure you come back again you know because i'm soon dead and i'm saying you're saying to me he's soon dead like he's not going to die i don't even understand the severity of cancer as young as I was at that time.

[103] She's like, yeah, man, I'm soon dead, man. He's like, and all my friends that he liked, she's like, make sure you bring them to say goodbye.

[104] And I'm like, say goodbye.

[105] Like, what the hell is?

[106] Everything's cool.

[107] But it's like, she's saying it to me like that.

[108] But my mom and my dad, they're not like explaining the severity of the situation to me. They're not saying like, there's a countdown.

[109] So I've got my aunt saying like, yo, we're giving him organic food.

[110] We're doing this.

[111] So I'm thinking, yo, we're fighting it.

[112] But every time I'm going back, it's like he's becoming like, I don't know, less and less and smaller and smaller.

[113] And now I can see it, but I'm still, I don't know, I guess the word's naive, isn't it?

[114] Like, you're very hopeful and you're naive thinking, no, no, no, it's going to be cool.

[115] Because he'd been, to be fair, he'd been saying he was sick for years, but he was undiagnosed.

[116] He was ill, but we didn't know when he went to the doctor, he died, once he got diagnosed, it's a countdown now.

[117] So I don't know if mentally something happens there.

[118] I don't know how that works, but just watching a, you know, through when he became incontinent, like washing him, bathing him, feeding him, just being there the whole way through.

[119] I was just like, that to me was the real definition of a marriage.

[120] That is, you know, sickness and health.

[121] Do you get what I'm saying?

[122] That is death do us part.

[123] That was literally two death do us part.

[124] And I'm like, I don't know if I'd ever see that level of strength again.

[125] The other thing that I really stuck out to me about your childhood, as I was reading through your backstory, was that moment when you're nine and a car comes up next to you.

[126] Yeah.

[127] Tell me about that.

[128] What happened?

[129] What did that teach you?

[130] At that point, like, Tottenham was warring with a lot of surrounding areas, isn't it?

[131] So it was like food fiestas back then, tinted cars rolling through the estate, just looking for whoever they're looking for, but I live in the middle of it.

[132] And being young, but being tall.

[133] And remember back then, when, when, when, when, everyone's warring with each other, like now we have the internet, so everyone knows who everyone is, what everyone looks like, whatever.

[134] Back then nobody didn't.

[135] It was just a description, like, he's dark skin and skinny.

[136] Do you get what I'm saying?

[137] So they're coming, looking for a dark skin and skinny guy, but I'm nine, and I'm going shop, and then I remember the car was breezing up to me. And I'm thinking, right, why's it driving like that?

[138] Skids, brow.

[139] Wind down the window, and then I look in the car, I'm like, bro.

[140] But it's like, it's like, And then drive off.

[141] And I just thought, bro, like, what the hell?

[142] Like, just thought, imagine if I ran.

[143] Like, because that, you know, like, for a second, I was going to run.

[144] I was thinking, right, the cars, because it's driving towards me, I can run that way.

[145] He ain't going to be able to spin around.

[146] But I just remember thinking, like, I haven't even done anything.

[147] Do you get what I'm saying?

[148] First of all, but then when it stopped and they've done that, I was just like, and it's true off.

[149] And I think that thing there made me feel like, it's probably better to be involved than to not at the time.

[150] Do you get what I'm saying?

[151] Because at the time I'm not involved, I'm actually just a clean -hearted good you, I just play football and computer, that's it.

[152] Do you get what I'm saying?

[153] So when that happened, it made me feel like, rah, that could have happened to me for no reason.

[154] Like, I might as well give you a reason.

[155] Do you get what I'm saying?

[156] Someone could have done something.

[157] Yeah, something could have, like, I could have been shot, whatever they was going to do.

[158] And I think that kind of put a chip on my shoulder.

[159] Do you know what I mean for the next couple years, which obviously is what led to my mum feeling like, now you're feeling yourself a bit too much.

[160] go and fly the nest.

[161] Like if you don't, you know, if you don't push the bird at the nest, it won't fly, you know, if you're not thrown in the water, you don't have to swim kind of thing.

[162] And a lot of men, I mean, this happens not just on the estate, but men that don't grow up in such circumstances, they start using that like bravado as a former self -defense, but it ends up inflicting self -harm in some way.

[163] I mean, that's what you tend to see with a lot of gangs, right?

[164] You join for, to defend yourself or to try and fit in, but it leads you down a path of self -harm.

[165] Yeah, because you go from, I'm doing this to fight back and then you go from fighting back in the form of defence to offence now because it's gone from I'm just defending myself to now I'm out in a club but I'm out somewhere and now you're getting into situations with people that you feel look like you might end up in a situation with so now it's just happening now it's proactive.

[166] Yeah, do you get what I'm saying whereas really if you both were just defending yourself then you can be cool to walk past each other or be in the same club at the same time or whatever.

[167] I think a lot of, like, things being unsaid, like when things ain't clear, like you're in, just because you're in an environment and you feel, I don't know, you might not have an issue with anyone in the environment, but because there's no clarity.

[168] Because they haven't said, we don't have nothing with you and you haven't said, we don't have nothing with you.

[169] It's just tense.

[170] Yeah, yeah.

[171] I mean, that's life, right?

[172] Relationships, you know what I mean?

[173] Yeah, and there's just a little tenseness.

[174] And it's like, why is it tense?

[175] and then depending on how the ice breaks, do you know what I'm saying?

[176] If it breaks the right way, it's cool.

[177] If it breaks the wrong way, then it's just erupting into something that didn't even exist, to be fair, in the first place.

[178] And at that age, what did you want to be when you grew up?

[179] What was the aspiration?

[180] Probably wanted to be Ian Wright.

[181] Realised early on, that ain't going to happen.

[182] I liked music.

[183] I didn't want to be a musician, though.

[184] Why?

[185] It didn't seem realistic.

[186] You didn't know anyone in your tribal circle that had gotten around?

[187] Yeah, it was like the musicians were like...

[188] Other people.

[189] Jay Z. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

[190] Tupac or Nas, like that was somewhere else.

[191] So it's like, yeah, you can do it for fun.

[192] So we do it for fun.

[193] We write whatever record on tapes, blah, blah, blah.

[194] But I never thought like this could be a career.

[195] I could make money from this.

[196] I could live in this space.

[197] So I guess like I was into trying to understand what else happens outside my estate because also what happens you feel like your family your friends become your family in the estate the sweet shop is basically a supermarket so you don't need to leave you just move from house to house then we're all outside we play football then it's 9pm we buy ice pose then everyone goes home we do it again tomorrow and you just end up in a cycle of that but then someone told me actually I saw one of my friends in an advert, a guy from my estate called Frank, yeah, he was in a Lexus advert as a kid.

[198] And I was like, when he, when he come on a tell you, I was like, mom, that's Francis.

[199] Like, he lives over there.

[200] I said, when I saw him, I said, Frank, how did you get in an advert?

[201] He was like, I've got an agent.

[202] I was like, is it?

[203] How did you get agent?

[204] He's like, there's a newspaper that comes out every Thursday called The Stage.

[205] So he's like, buy the stage.

[206] It costs a pound, but it just shows you so much different things.

[207] So I used to buy that newspaper, yeah, just to see like what else can happen.

[208] like what else is there and they used to be like auditions or whatever to be fair i'd never really go to any but i think like i was just intrigued about like what else exists like what other people are doing then i'd see something about the brit school i'm like wow i wonder what that is like all these things that we don't know nothing about anna shares i used to see sylvia young all these things in the paper but there was always a price or cost like sign up for this or pay for the portfolio or whatever and obviously at like 11 12 30 you can't you know i mean my mom she's not gonna there's too many of us to ask for that we need school uniform first and foremost everything else is secondary so um yeah how old are you and you decided that you were gonna like record a mixtape and like publish it and try and sell it 2006 when it came out yeah 2006 learned from my mixtape came out that's my first CD, 24 songs on there.

[209] I tried getting it on Spotify, I couldn't.

[210] No, it's not.

[211] I need to get it up on there.

[212] People ask, but I think there might be one or two American beats.

[213] So that's why we're struggling with that.

[214] But yeah, man, I think at that point, I'd been on pirate radio, been on Heat FM.

[215] And I was just like, then I became obsessed.

[216] I was obsessed.

[217] I was just like, I need to go studio as much as I can.

[218] Everything I was doing was to put into being able to record.

[219] And then once I had seven or eight CDs with about nine songs on each, I was like, right, what, like 50, 60 something songs?

[220] Like, this is mad.

[221] Maybe I should just do a project.

[222] So then I came up with the idea, learned from my mixtape because I wanted it to be like quite educational, like not in a school way, but in a street's way.

[223] Like I always wanted to like educate the youths and let them know there was other ways of doing things kind of thing.

[224] That's always been my thing.

[225] So yeah, came up with that, made that project the funny thing about that CD is that you give it to the guy to press up pay your six or seven hundred pound and then he he presses it up but there back then they were so long you're ringing him every Friday is it has it arrived no it's not arrived yet ringing ringing ringing ringing ringing so the day my son's born I'm in the hospital where I get a phone call and it's the guy and I'm like so the baby's born healthy everything's cool answer the phone he's like your CDs are here come now because he's not I don't know I don't remember if it was a Friday but he wasn't in for the next two days so it was like come now so obviously I'll come off the phone I'm in the hospital holding my son so like his mom's looked at me and she's like who was that I was like yeah man the CDs are here but she knows that this is my thing so this is like but this is the thing when you make music you're obsessed bro you're obsessed so I'm like looking at my watch like you get what I'm saying and she's like then she just looks at me and she goes to go and get the CDs man just go and get the CDs I'm like thank you man my son jumped to the car ripped to Croydon picked up a thousand CDs a thousand you got them all in the car thousand all in the car all in the car bro a thousand like seats two of us in the car seats down like a thousand it takes up bare space as well got them back so then like just put them in the hallway when they picked them up brought her home and she was just like you need to get these out of this house because now there's a buggy there's Moses basket there's all of this stuff I'm just like I'm just feeling mad pressure I'm just like bro that was just fun and exciting man it was like it was like my life was born was reborn my son was born I just felt like a new energy I was re -energized and I just wanted to go man So it was like spent the next couple weeks doing the sailing return.

[226] So you take them to a shop if they don't sell them, they're going back.

[227] Bro.

[228] And at that point, I don't care about the money, bro.

[229] I just want to be heard.

[230] Like, I wouldn't, someone drove past me and they were playing my CD, bro.

[231] You can't tell me I'm not Jay -Z back then.

[232] When I heard that and I don't know the person, normally you know them, I'm looking.

[233] I'm like, bro, he doesn't even know it's me. He's driven past me. I'm like, yeah, this is like, this is happening.

[234] We're growing.

[235] We're growing.

[236] So yeah, just re -energize, man. And sailing return is long because you're no one, the shop guy, his shelves are full.

[237] So he's like, yeah, we'll take five.

[238] I'm like, my guy, I have a thousand of these.

[239] Take 50, bro.

[240] I won't even come back for the money.

[241] I swear to you, bro.

[242] Like, I'm cool, bro.

[243] He was like, nah, no, give me 10.

[244] Bro, you know what I'm doing?

[245] Just to get rid of them.

[246] I'll buy the 10 back, yeah?

[247] And then he'll call me and he'll be like, yeah, the 10 went fast, you know?

[248] that I'll make someone else do it do you want the 50 now yeah yeah bring the 50 yeah we've got 50 for you coming so you'd get friends to go in and buy the CDs yeah do you get what I'm saying so now I can go and give him 50 that's half a box out bro this was taking up so much space so yeah doing that Oxford Circus Birmingham cried and like ooh the music shops and yeah it was different time in it when you were running around shot on those CDs what were you doing for money because I'm sure that wasn't that wasn't covering the bills right No, me and my manager, he's my manager now, he was just my, he's always been my bregian, like my right hand.

[249] We just, every, every penny we made from anything, we just put it together and put it in this and put it in this.

[250] So it was like, sometimes we'd go back for the sale and return as well, so we'd get a little drips and drabs there, this and that.

[251] And just literally just sharing money.

[252] It's like we had one bank account, if I'm honest, like it was, we were just sharing, like anything, what do we need?

[253] Then we needed to do a video.

[254] How much there's a video cost?

[255] 2 ,500.

[256] Whoa.

[257] All right, cool.

[258] But now, at the time, like, my son's mom's, like, yo, we need buggy.

[259] Let's say we need a buggy, but it's like, I need to do a video.

[260] It was like, I thought like I was always trying to decide between a buggy or a video.

[261] Yeah, bro.

[262] Like, you feel so guilty.

[263] But you know, it made me understand.

[264] It made me understand, like, the need and the obsession and the love.

[265] I have for this thing because I'm actually always comparing it like it sounds mad to hear me say but it's just when it's your purpose is your purpose bro every single month we're growing we're growing we're growing we're growing it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and when it gets to that point we'll have how many buggies do you get what I'm saying we have the best cot everything it'll be able to spin you get what I'm saying the cot will put the baby to sleep whatever you know what I mean SMA champagne so yeah but that was like that was when I was under understanding that you've like you've actually got some kind of obsessional some deep rooted love for this thing that should probably not be like that you know what I'm saying like what you're weighing up against the other thing it just but it just was man how long were you in that phase of like trying to like trying to give people your CDs and like how how in years or months how long was that that that phase where like people weren't because I was watching the Kanye Netflix documentary recently cold cold it reminded me of that that you got that young man who believed in himself more than anyone else did you see that scene where he plays like bro it all falls down all falls down and she's not paying attention to her she goes on the phone yeah yeah she's on the phone she's intentionally trying to tell him to piss off by like ignoring him yeah it reminds me of that like so how long were you in that phase of your journey just like selling them CDs I think so if this first CD came out 2006 I reckon since like 2003 I'd been giving that music but what I was always very clever at like I I always wanted everyone to like my music.

[266] So I had different CDs with different songs on.

[267] So I'd have like a CD with 10 Grime songs, a CD with 10 love songs, a CD with five songs about trying to turn your life around.

[268] I just had different CDs.

[269] And what I'd do, I'd give the CD to each person as to what I think they would like.

[270] So I give the man them that one.

[271] But what was happening is that I gave a man that, and then I gave his sister a different one but his sister was like yeah but my brother's got one that's got different songs on but I'm like I don't think you'd like that so it was like I was always just I had music enough music to please everyone but then everyone wanted the other songs as well so that kind of made me decide that you know what if you put everything on 24 songs then maybe they can all be centred to this disc and it can start there and it worked 2003 2006 you were trying to move them CDs mixtape comes out 2006 Yeah.

[272] But what were you using as metrics to figure out if it was actually working?

[273] Bro, if I heard my song on the radio, we was winning.

[274] Every time I heard it, I was like, cool.

[275] And my manager, we are ying and yang.

[276] Like, I'm all creative and this guy is all genius in another way.

[277] So he would be like, I'd go to his house and he'd be like, all right, cool.

[278] We're going to this show in Nottingham.

[279] These people are performing.

[280] When you see this guy, he thinks he knows you, yeah?

[281] because I've messaged him off your account and you don't have had a conversation so just make sure he say hello to him I'm just like how do you even know who's who but he'd already engineered some idea and so then we were like proper like the first station to proper like really show us mad love was like one extra so it's like DJ Cameo base and Viz like all these Raskwami all these twin B like all these people were just showing mad love like come in man do an interview and like I like to think I'm likable.

[282] People like to conversate.

[283] So we're talking and then this guy will introduce me to a producer.

[284] Then the producer will introduce me to a next person.

[285] Then we found out about press and PR.

[286] We started working with a guy called Charlie at Visions.

[287] And he was like, yeah, you pay us 500 pound a month and we can get you in magazines.

[288] Like, right, magazines, crazy.

[289] Like, it was just like everything was just one person away.

[290] So each person introduced us to a different person.

[291] And that's how I'm how I was measuring.

[292] the growth.

[293] So I'm like, I can come back and I'm like, yo man, I just met this guy, man, he shoots videos or I met this guy, he does PR, I met this guy, he's a photographer, like, and she was in her head, she's probably thinking, oh, shut up.

[294] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[295] What's the photographer going to do?

[296] But I'm like, it's another step, each step, each step, each step, each step.

[297] One hand is washing the other and we will wash the whole body, I promise.

[298] You know what I mean?

[299] Like, in that, in that phase, you're starting to get these radio plays and stuff, which is kind of like a sign for you.

[300] It's that reinforcement, that thing, you're moving in the right direction.

[301] Yeah.

[302] Was there, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot, but was there a moment when even your partner at the time said to you, do you know what?

[303] I think, or you could see it in, because sometimes they don't say it, you can see it in their face.

[304] When they hear it on the radio, they see, you know.

[305] Yeah, I always knew that I was ticking her off, man. Like, in that, in that, not in that, not in that aspect.

[306] Because even like, at them times I used to write at home, but I don't know if you've lived, to the musician or been around a musician bro that beat is on loop for hours you get i'm saying and all i would hear like when i pull it back is just like as if you do it again like and i just was like you know what i need to just start working in the studio like because this like it's like it's when you find your passion yeah you find your cooling bro you're not fair to no one you're only fair to yourself you know i'm saying you're not fair to anyone everyone everyone come second bro everyone and it's not intentional it just it just is what it is so me thinking that i'm spending time with her because i'm writing in the house even though i'm not talking to her the song's just on loop and i'm writing i'm thinking i'm spending time that ain't spending time do you i'm saying that's just being present so it's like but then it's like in my head i'm thinking yeah but if i'm in a studio for eight hours it's better that i'm at home yeah that i'm at home but it's it's actually all about me bro It was only all about me, my calling and making this music.

[307] This is my, like I wake up every day, I think music.

[308] Before I go to sleep, I think music.

[309] I used to have a dream that happened every time.

[310] And in the dream, I'm in the studio and I'm writing a verse.

[311] And I'd wake up and I'm like, I can never remember the verse.

[312] And I'm trying to remember, trying to remember.

[313] One day I woke up, I'm like, right, I had a pen and paper, I buy my bed, I left it there.

[314] I wrote out the verse that I wrote in my dream.

[315] I was like, bro, this is, like, to me, I'm like, I'm believing in this now.

[316] I'm like, this has to be fate or something.

[317] Like, this has to be engineered by someone higher than you, man. Like, from your writing in your sleep, literally.

[318] So just, and just going and going and going.

[319] I want to get up to the point when you release black and white in 2011.

[320] Yeah.

[321] What happens between that mixtape coming out in 2006 to 2011?

[322] Is that what are the most significant moments or pivotal moments where things took a, a time in a good direction.

[323] Okay, like more exposure and little things happening here and there.

[324] Like MTV asked us to do something for Black History Month.

[325] It was like a freestyle.

[326] That was strong because it showed people I could write, perform, stick to topic.

[327] Then one extra gave us an award for getting, I think one of our records was the most played.

[328] Right.

[329] So it was like, that was quite cool.

[330] That most street heat.

[331] That was DJ Semtex.

[332] Is that punctuation?

[333] I think it was punctuation, yeah, punctuation, getting a lot more bookings and twin B, twin B from one extra, always having conversations with him, like he just gave me a understanding of the game on the other side because at the time he was working at ministry and he just had so many gems and he made me understand because I used to think like, why am I not signed?

[334] Like, why was I not signed?

[335] Why am I not signed?

[336] Am I not good?

[337] Or, it's not about good or great.

[338] It's about timing and it's about what can a label help you do.

[339] How can a label help you be bigger?

[340] What do you need to achieve before you step into a label?

[341] So it's all these conversations, you know, doing loads of collaborations as well.

[342] And then Richard Antwery and Twinby, they form a record label called Levels.

[343] And they're like, we want to sign you, man. and I'm like, bro, okay, like what happens now kind of thing.

[344] It's like, now you need a lawyer, now you need, you know, all these other things.

[345] And it was just like, once it got to that point, I knew that it was serious because Richard Antwery had work with Adele, so many different people, do you what I'm saying?

[346] And I knew that this guy was serious, twin music lover, we'd had endless conversations on the phone about music.

[347] And they had their situation with ministry or sound, so they were like a subsidiary of ministry as sound.

[348] So it was like, sign to levels, like, you know, and ministry as well.

[349] And I just, I just knew that that was the right thing to do at the time.

[350] When you get that news that they want to sign you, what's Ashley saying?

[351] Do you come home and you're like, ha?

[352] You ain't it?

[353] We done it.

[354] I don't think I do, you know.

[355] I think, I guess by that point, just me being about me, the relationship's not where it, it could have been a way it should have been, do you know what I mean?

[356] So I think by that time, we're already going on separate ways.

[357] Yeah, kind of drifting apart.

[358] But, yes, I didn't get to kind of have that thing.

[359] But I think she's, you know, she's happy for me, always been happy for me, always always knew that this was what I needed to do.

[360] She knew that it was a need and not a want because of the things, what, everything I was weighing it up against, she knew that this is a need, like this guy needs.

[361] to do this like he needs it so yeah and then black and white and then black and white yeah so initially we signed for a single which was tractor that was my ringtone in 2012 yeah that was my ringtone i don't even know what phone it was but it was my ringtone when i first i did one day at university before i dropped out and that was my my ringtone from day one my guy yeah we had that record and twin said to me when i put the verses down he was like this song's going to change your life really he's said that.

[362] Yeah, and I was like, I don't know how you know that, but you're my guy.

[363] So I'm believing in you.

[364] And I'm like, I just didn't know what would happen next.

[365] So I'm still going back to them times when I'd go to the record shops, yeah, and kind of buy back the CDs to give more.

[366] So when I'm out in the club, if they're playing the tune or they're not playing the tune, I'm making sure they play the song.

[367] You get what I'm saying?

[368] Like I'm saying, yeah, what does it take?

[369] What?

[370] All the drinks?

[371] Cool.

[372] I'll order drinks.

[373] Play that song on the drinks.

[374] Come, like, I'm making sure that this song is being heard.

[375] We're trying everything.

[376] We're not trying to, we're, our thing was always floor to ceiling.

[377] We'd say we'd make sure we'd covered everything floor to ceiling.

[378] And then, yeah, bam, it goes in the charts and literally everything changed.

[379] Everything changed after that.

[380] Take me through that process.

[381] So it goes in the charts and then you start just, what's it like?

[382] Because I've, you know, I never had a hit.

[383] Bro, it's like you get throughout that week.

[384] So say like the song, say like the song.

[385] available to buy on Sunday was back then.

[386] So Monday morning, like the labels kind of knows the numbers, isn't it?

[387] So they're kind of like, your number eight.

[388] I'm like, rah, number eight.

[389] They're like, yeah, but we'll catch seven and six, maybe five.

[390] Then the next day it's like, yeah, your number six.

[391] I'm like, what the hell?

[392] Like, and it's just going higher.

[393] Then it gets the four, I think, and it goes back to five, and it's like, it's five and it's like, wow, we want to hold in the top five.

[394] And it's just, I don't know.

[395] I just think at that time, yeah, you just, you almost step into a vehicle and then it just starts moving.

[396] And it's like, you know, like when you're driving through an era, you're looking at the window, you're just seeing things and you're just seeing people and, but you're just moving.

[397] It was just moving, bro.

[398] Like, it was just moving.

[399] It was moving.

[400] And then you're doing Glastonbury and then you're doing wireless and you're doing V -Festable and you're doing, everything was just moving.

[401] Everything was, everything happened so fast that I don't think, I don't think I even stopped to take it in at that time.

[402] And then it was cool.

[403] You done it once.

[404] That was one single, now we want to do an album.

[405] What's the next single?

[406] It's like, now you've got to do it again.

[407] And it's like, I didn't even really know how I'd done it in the first place, if I'm honest.

[408] Like, do you know what I'm saying?

[409] It was a cool song, sounded good.

[410] And it worked.

[411] And then it was just like, K make a second single and then made a second single while making the album and it was just, it was just moving, man. Everything was just, it was, it happens.

[412] You know when they say like, you, you wait your whole life for it to happen overnight?

[413] Literally waited a whole life for it's a happen overnight.

[414] And once it happened, it just didn't stop.

[415] It just kept, the ball kept rolling, man. Were you prepared for it mentally, I don't know, socially?

[416] Were you prepared for that train to pick you up and drag you off into your dream like that?

[417] I don't think so now.

[418] But I think luckily, the only thing I wanted to do still at that time was make music.

[419] I think if I wanted to, I can see like how like, you know, like an artist has a hit and then just all over the papers and just getting involved in different things.

[420] I can see how that can happen.

[421] Temptation, right?

[422] Yeah, because you end up in other places other than where you should be.

[423] But for me, it was still always about the studio.

[424] Like I'd go raving, but I'd go raving.

[425] at one o 'clock because the engineer is tired or the producer's tired and we finish.

[426] And I don't have the best night's sleep.

[427] I don't sleep too well.

[428] So it's one o 'clock, yeah, I'd go out.

[429] But then tomorrow it was studio.

[430] Like, it was always, I was always in and locked in.

[431] So I didn't veer from that.

[432] So I think in a sense, I wasn't prepared for one side of it, but for what I needed to do I was prepared for.

[433] And I was serious about my half of the deal, yeah.

[434] And then so that album becomes a huge success, a real breakthrough moment for you.

[435] And then obviously when the album's done you have another pressure right which is the expectation of that album right bro go again do you know what I'm saying like flip a coin 10 times and get heads yeah all right cool now do another 10 do you know what I'm saying it's literally like how am I gonna yeah get heads every time every time do you know I'm saying get heads go and do it well you done it do it go for me like making music is the part that I'm in control of and never feel pressured about that.

[436] Never.

[437] Because I have what I have to say.

[438] I feel what I feel.

[439] And I'm going to pour all of that into music.

[440] I'm going to pour all of that into the album.

[441] No problem.

[442] I just think at that time, what was getting tricky was ministry was kind of happy that we'd had three top five singles and was kind of just, you know, more as a business, more happy to stay in that domain.

[443] Like, yeah, let's just turn out the hits.

[444] And I think after black and white and all of that and all the things like, you know, just, I think I had a lot of frustration in me and it was almost, it's almost the side of my life which I saw my uncle and my dad and all of like talking about the police people, like that side of me was coming out.

[445] Whereas I'd always mention it in my music, I just felt like I wanted, I had something else to You know what I'm saying?

[446] You know what I'm saying?

[447] Everything happened with Mark Duggan and all of that.

[448] And I was like, I need to speak about what's going on.

[449] And I think it was a bit of a difference of opinion.

[450] Do you know what I'm saying?

[451] Ministry of Sound when these kind of songs ain't hit records.

[452] So it was a bit of friction.

[453] So we had to work our way, you know, around that.

[454] And it was just about, you know, getting to the point where we could release that album, which was growing over life.

[455] And it was just, for me, it was important that I released.

[456] that record man and and following back and why when you look back on how you reacted and you know that tension with the label and stuff like that in your maturity and wisdom now is there do you wish you'd behaved differently following the release of that album and its success is there something you wish you would you know in with the wonder of hindsight yeah change no yeah no because I wasn't like I wasn't aggressive I just like to understand I like clarity And I think what can happen in the industry is not everybody wants to be crystal clear.

[457] Whereas it's like if you're crystal clear with it and say, do you know what, if we can get another don't go and another tractor and another blackout, then whatever.

[458] So it's like, all right, cool.

[459] Then you understand an assignment of what you're after.

[460] But it's like if you're not being crystal clear, then it kind of leaves you in limbo.

[461] So you're sending in songs.

[462] And it's just like.

[463] And they're not being clear about what they're saying about.

[464] Feedback's a bit like, don't think this one's a single.

[465] It's like, say it was a single, just said it was a song, that kind of thing, do you know what I mean?

[466] So it's like, yeah, just trying to gain understanding.

[467] I think that was what my frustration was, was like just getting understand.

[468] But Twinby, obviously, Twinby and Richard Andrew always kept it 100, always was just like, look, if we can have, if there's any moments where we can, I think they're like, you need to say what you need to say in it, do you know what I'm saying?

[469] And if them other moments arise, we'll find them and you'll engineer them, you're the best at doing that, you know, when you're comfortable.

[470] to do it you do i'm saying there ain't no pressure coming from our way and i came came up with six words which was um written within that within that space and within that time and i was like all right cool i've got one the one you want it's the one you want kind of thing um so yeah but i think with hindsight i didn't like i didn't fly off the handle i didn't i didn't i didn't get angry i'm not i didn't get aggressive it was pointless did you stray away from your like your principal passion of making music during that phase?

[471] Did you find yourself like not showing up obsessed in the studio in the same way after that hit?

[472] Because sometimes when people reach the mountaintop, they lose a bit of orientation and motivation sometimes.

[473] And, you know, there's other temptations.

[474] Now you've got a bit of money so you don't need to be.

[475] The hunger's slightly different.

[476] No. No?

[477] No. Love it.

[478] Like, I think for me, always wanting to be the best rapper, always wanted to say the sickest things, the things that people are like, Like, bro, how did you get to that?

[479] Do you get what I'm saying?

[480] Like, so that, that never left me. So, like, there was always freestyles.

[481] There was always, you know, always raps, always verses, you know, collaborations.

[482] Like, at a time, like, my manager, Zion used to say to me, like, he's just like, bro, sometimes you've got to make something make sense.

[483] Like, these people are asking you for a feature.

[484] They want to pay you 20 bags of verse or 10 bags of verse.

[485] And you're saying, though.

[486] And you're bridging, around the corner, is rapping.

[487] You're giving you a verse for free.

[488] Like, we've got a, I'm not saying don't do the verse for free, but I'm saying, you get what I'm saying?

[489] There's some over here that make, that verse makes sense as well.

[490] So it's like also as well, navigation and just being like, oh yeah, yeah, you're right kind of thing.

[491] And just some things work well for positioning, do you know what I mean?

[492] As well, but just always, yeah, just always wanting to be the best artist, man. Just always wanting to have the best album.

[493] I think that's something that's never left me. And I think if that does leave you, As an artist, that's probably when it's like, you know, like when you see Mike Tyson in the ring at the end and he's fighting some guy you haven't heard of and he's just mashing him up and you're just like, Mike, man. Do you what I'm saying?

[494] Like, Mike five years ago, you would have finished him, but it's like, Mike's not Mike.

[495] Do you know what I'm saying?

[496] Mike ain't got that.

[497] You don't love it anymore.

[498] Do you what I'm saying?

[499] The love's gone, you can see it in his eyes.

[500] And I feel like, if that happens to you as a musician, is yeah it's not it's not good to kind of like mess up your legacy man like one of the things that's always made you stand out even when I listen to your fire in the booths and I listen to all of them I have them on replay I actually played one last night to my girlfriend I was like rich she's coming to my husband I played the one you did with is it avalino yeah avalino yeah I played that one a lot um is the subject matter of what you write about is isn't about buying Rolexes and fast cars now as a young black man myself um I tend to feel a sense of disappointment when I go on Instagram and I see like the new school of like hip -hop artists all putting their hands in and showing their rollies because for me it's like leading our people astray in the sense because I would like them to show their investment portfolio or their the equity they have in businesses and stuff because like you know what's your stance on that?

[501] I actually was going to put some stuff on my story the other day because I saw I don't want to name names because it's not about individuals.

[502] It's about a culture.

[503] I saw some rappers that actually follow me, some big, big hip -hop UK rappers that follow me, all like showing off the material things.

[504] And it really disappoints me because I know there's thousands.

[505] In this case, there's 800 ,000 people that follow this guy.

[506] And they're now going to aspire to buy Gucci before they invest their money or put it away.

[507] What's your thoughts on this?

[508] I think we've, growing up, yeah, I think like we were so like bedazzled by the American rap culture.

[509] And we'd always seen them have things, have jewelry, have all these things and whatever.

[510] And I think even myself at a point, for me, that was like a trophy or a measure of success.

[511] Do you get what I'm saying?

[512] It's like the Rolex was a measure of success.

[513] And I think like I've heard you say yourself as well, it's like once you get it, it's like it doesn't really make you feel inside yeah it doesn't really give you nothing like that and I think we haven't had we haven't had the luxury of of information and I think information comes from people who look like you and people who have been through it had success and are able to tell you so now I'm in that position I'm able to talk to an 18 year old and be like yeah man you can get that but at the same time make sure you've got that one of the dumbest things I'd ever done in my life I don't think I've said this anywhere is so obviously when I um out of my mums got a council flat bro when I signed my deal I left my house I left the whole house and just went left the council out left just left it but people at the time were saying to me yo man buy it like why don't you buy it and I'm like I don't I'm not going to live here like it was in Tottenham I'm not going to live here I'm gonna you I'm saying and they're like no you don't just buy it but the people that were telling me to buy it didn't own a house so i'm like what do you know yeah what do you know like i live in princess park manor do you get what i'm saying now like this is gated community like this is way better than this bro that that was a very stupid mistake so to boot that that would be my first one on the ladder do you get what i'm saying they give you a discount bloody bloody blah whatever but even though i had the information it wasn't coming from a success story, it wasn't coming from someone that had done it before.

[514] Do you get what I'm saying?

[515] So now I'm the first one that's like, yo, where are you going to rent?

[516] Like, think about what you're doing because then even myself, like, I was in Prince of Park Manor forever.

[517] And even in there, like, I wasn't ever like thinking about buying property.

[518] And they were like, don't you want to buy the one that you're in?

[519] I was like, no, I'm not going to be here forever.

[520] Like, in my eyes, property was you buy to live.

[521] not buy to let.

[522] And you can't move.

[523] Yeah, do you get what I'm saying?

[524] In my head, I'm thinking, no, I'm going to buy where I'm going to live.

[525] But I'm like, I never really understood that.

[526] No, you can buy and move and just own it.

[527] And then rent it yourself.

[528] Do you get what I'm saying?

[529] I didn't really understand the principle of that.

[530] So I understand.

[531] I understand why it happens.

[532] I understand why we want all these trophies.

[533] I get it.

[534] But I think it's about people like myself who can now conversate with the younger lot and be like, look, Man. Like, I get it.

[535] It looks nice.

[536] But, bro, like, this music is Game of Thrones, bro.

[537] Music is game.

[538] You see Game of Thrones.

[539] They kill the main character, bro.

[540] Do you get what I'm saying?

[541] They don't mind doing that.

[542] Music is Game of Thrones, bro.

[543] You're Michael Jackson on Monday.

[544] You're T .O. Jackson on Tuesday, bro.

[545] Like, and then you can be Michael again by Sunday.

[546] You get what I'm saying?

[547] Like, it's musical chairs, bro.

[548] Like, you have to understand.

[549] We're not always going to be number one forever.

[550] So just make sure.

[551] you're buying a foundation for your foundation man yeah when you had you know your first big breakthrough moment at the time did you somewhere in your mind think that this was meant that you would be number one forever is there part of you that goes oh we've done it now in terms of like now I know this the the equation yeah a bit of complacency maybe I kind of think like the more you understand because obviously but at that time there's a there's a root to get to number one and it's like your song's launched by Mr. Jam or Annie Mac and then the pre -orders out and then you go for playlisting or Radio One Extra Capital and there's like a there's a root that puts you on the pitch Do you get what I'm saying?

[552] Yeah, to get it.

[553] So there's a couple steps.

[554] So but the problem is you can't believe in the route more than you've been.

[555] believe in the fruit.

[556] So you can't think that this root can work with whatever fruit you give it.

[557] Do you get what I'm saying?

[558] You still has to be an apple, bro.

[559] Do you know what I'm saying?

[560] Like it still has to be fruitful.

[561] It still has to be a record, a sick record.

[562] Do you get what I'm saying?

[563] So then, you know, we've had some records that I thought, yeah, like, there's one or two that I thought like the root can carry it.

[564] And then when the root don't carry it, you realize like, nah, this, it's, it's, don't work every time you don't once again you don't you don't just you don't get 10 heads in a row bro you get i'm saying you get tells one time and then it's and then it's how you bounce back from that have you had to talk to me about bouncing back from that then because you know even as a fan of yours like i'll play i'll play i'll play records of yours when they drop and i'll be like i'll say to my boys we've got this little chat on what's that i'll say this one is a fucking like this one is um i'm like this one's gonna be right and then it might not get there and another one might you must have that all the time.

[565] And how do you manage the expectation of like golden creating a project you believing that it's X, Y and Z?

[566] I mean, I do that with these podcasts as well.

[567] You just never know, like which episode's going to bang, right?

[568] And then putting it out there and that bit being out of your control.

[569] How does that feel?

[570] And if you had moments like that where you've created something and put it out there, you go, what?

[571] You have to understand that that's the side that we're not in control of.

[572] Do you get what I'm saying?

[573] Like, and as an artist, just make it for you make it for you put your best foot forward but make it for you because if I make a song that I think is rubbish but I think everyone's going to like yeah and I put a song out everybody likes it it goes to number one I now have to perform this song this song is in my discography this is in my catalogue like my great great great grandkids are going to hear this song so you know what I'm saying and not even I've had a conversation with me. That's going to be their representation of their great, great, great, great, great, grandfather.

[574] Be proud of your art, man. Do you get what I'm saying?

[575] Be proud of it.

[576] So for me, it's like, I put my blood, sweat, tears and skin in my album when it comes out.

[577] If they like it, if they don't like it, what can I?

[578] I can't.

[579] I can't do anything more than I done.

[580] And I put my best foot forward.

[581] And I think you have to live by that, man, because you either you either have the hit that you don't like or you put out the record that you don't like and it's not a hit so now you've got to now you're wrestling back to get back to where you was for something you didn't even like anyway do you get what I'm saying just put your best foot forward man and stay true to yourself yeah stay true to yourself man because it's your this is your legacy like me now I try and look at my like it all made sense to me when I started seeing my career from the end to today and I'm like what what what navigates me is will I be happy with this at the end so I make a song today and I'm listening to the tune and I'm like will I be happy with this at the end yeah it can work for today then but if I feel like at the end I might feel like I don't think you should have put that one out it's not worth it it's not worth it it's not worth it bro oh yeah what we get what we got how many we get it years maybe now whatever you like your legacy can can triple that bro do you what i'm saying like have the right one have the right one you got you're in control of that that's what you are in control of and you've had a taste of the like the empty nature of like fame and like people writing about you every single second and people running up and falling in and all this stuff you've tasted that so what what have you learned about what that means being on dragons then now i get it a little bit more so I get people coming up to me and stuff.

[582] And I'm in the early stages of like figuring out what it means to, you know, like have Daily Mail reporters standing outside the house here and taking photos of me and my girlfriend when we walk out and I'm trying to understand what this attention means.

[583] Is it something I can use?

[584] Does it make me feel good?

[585] What is it?

[586] It didn't make me feel good, man. I didn't.

[587] That's one thing I've always wanted to be in the shadows.

[588] Like I've always not wanted that part of it.

[589] Some people understand how to use it though.

[590] Do you get what I'm saying?

[591] because say for example you're designing clothing and it's like every time they shoot you they're putting it in a magazine do you get what I'm saying like you're being you're being mass exposed and your clothing's being mass exposed but it's like if you don't have if you don't wish for that if you don't desire for that then it's like I feel like it's it was useless for me being in the front of certain magazines for nothing like nothing artistic do you get I mean And I know people say, like, any publicity is good publicity.

[592] I'm like, sometimes you can just be famous for nothing.

[593] I know I wants to be the guy that's like the most famous person in the world and no money.

[594] Do you know what I mean?

[595] Or like, not, I don't say money, like, to be rich.

[596] I just mean like everyone knows who you are and everywhere you're walking, you're stopping and having a conversation, taking a picture, taking this, taking a that, taking to that.

[597] But like, your thing's not in order.

[598] Like, you're not going to feel good being that person.

[599] So, like, I just, yeah, I never, I never really liked it, man. I never liked it, man. I was the one, I was hiding from the pipes, man, all the time.

[600] In your come -up, did you ever experience what they call like imposter syndrome?

[601] Walking into rooms and feeling like, what the fuck am I doing here?

[602] Or being in situations and going, like, I don't know if I deserve this, that voice inside.

[603] For a short period of time.

[604] But you know who made me overcome that Richard Antwery?

[605] Like, he passed away, but he's such a champion.

[606] This guy would walk, he walks into any media.

[607] in fearlessly.

[608] Like, you could be sitting down with the head of HMV or, and he's going to tell them, yeah, you need to take 20 ,000 of our CDs and d -da -da -da -da -da -dur, and you're just like, raw, like, you're just, like, he made me feel like, you're you, bro.

[609] Like, you're gold.

[610] You're the gold as well, you know, you're gold, bro.

[611] Like, don't now walk into that room, man, because you think everything in there is gold become silver.

[612] No, no, no, I'm gold as well.

[613] Do you get what I'm saying?

[614] And I think.

[615] being around him and then that drip down to my manager Zion as well and he's got that thing as well where bro we were like we were having like I remember I remember we were we done a thing with Lucasade where they put us on like On the bottles?

[616] Yeah on the bottles yeah and I remember like us sitting down we were like tapping each other so they were like yeah what do you want to put on the bottles like yeah man we want to put our estate but I'm thinking they're going to say no but they're like yeah yeah that would be sick Like, yeah, a bitch of our state, yeah, yeah, and what else?

[617] Yeah, man, and this and that and that.

[618] And I realized I was like, you can get, the things that you think you can't get, you can get.

[619] Like, you are the gold as well.

[620] There's a reason why Lucas Aid want to partner up with Retrie, too.

[621] Do you get what I'm saying?

[622] Like, there's a reason.

[623] And it's like sometimes we think they're so big, they don't, but it's a two -way thing.

[624] It's a two -way street.

[625] So I think, yeah, for a short period of time I did, but then like Zion, Richard, twin like they just they just made me understand the importance of like knowing your worth yeah knowing your worth and just being fearless man just walking into any room as me like and and like i did feel that as well at certain times because obviously now we see the festival lineups like wireless and all that like you see miss banks you see step London you see gets you see gigs you see you see so many names 2011 it wasn't like that bro you see tiny might see chick see rich do you get what I'm saying It was like, or certain festivals, I'm the only representative of this genre.

[626] So it's like, when you're stepping into that, like, then you're feeling like, if I mess up, like if I even forget one line of my lyric, they ain't booking no one next year.

[627] Do you get what I'm saying?

[628] So it's like then you've got this thing where it's like the fights on where you're fighting for the scene, you know what I mean?

[629] And you've got to wear it like a badger honor.

[630] I remember like doing Glastonbury and like the guy who like books the tent, like standing on the side or whatever, I can't remember what festival it was, but it was standing on the side, like, it's asking me bare questions.

[631] Like, why do you have two drummers?

[632] It's just like, bro, I've got electronic sounds on my album.

[633] He plays electric, he plays acoustic.

[634] Like, so the music's going to sound exactly like the record.

[635] Oh, how come you set a stage up like this?

[636] How come, how come, like so many questions that I don't feel like you was asking anyone else.

[637] You just wanted to check if we knew what we was doing.

[638] And at that point, to be fair, not everyone's shooting in the dark.

[639] Do you get what I'm saying?

[640] Everyone's, we're all guessing, bro, at that point.

[641] We're all shooting in the dark.

[642] Just don't be the casualty.

[643] Don't be the one that gets hit.

[644] That was the fairy.

[645] So, yeah, we just felt our way through.

[646] But them times I did used to feel a little thing.

[647] But then afterwards I was like, no, man, I'm coming.

[648] Like, we're coming.

[649] We've got stuff to add.

[650] I've got hit records as well.

[651] They want to hear us.

[652] And the festival lineup needs to be more diverse.

[653] Like, we're 10 years after that now, and the festival lineup is more diverse.

[654] But I do feel like at that time of time, Tiny Tempo wasn't turning up or Chip wasn't doing what he had to do.

[655] Even Professor Green wasn't doing what he had to do.

[656] Do you know what I mean?

[657] Like, Tynchi had to do what he had.

[658] We had to get it right and we had to.

[659] Or I don't know if we'd be here today.

[660] When you come from the estate like you do and you end up in these like boardrooms and these fancy meetings with these, you know, rich white men in suits.

[661] What I see in a lot of like young people from those kind of backgrounds is they kind of through life with a bit of an expectation that the cards are stacked against them yeah and i i worry sometimes that that belief whether it's true or false it is often true the belief that the cards are stacked against you can be equally or more harmful than the cards actually being stacked against you yeah do you know what i mean yeah the belief of the cards being starts against you can be the deterrent of you even playing the game exactly do you get what i'm saying i don't even want to deal now like don't deal me yeah because i'm going to lose anyway you know what i'm saying but i don't know what that comes from but i was fortunate man like i can't i can't say it enough like richard antoe like just just a g he was a lawyer he was a lawyer as well a music lawyer so he he understood that side as well so he could he could speak whatever language do you get i'm saying at any table he could like if they started talking about split some points he can he can go there with you do you what i'm saying so when you're walking into a game with that bro you're you're fearless bro green machine you started this business with your um business partner and it's um now i believe the the largest CBD shop in europe by number of shops that you have a number of stores square feet they say yeah by square feet tell me about green machine Green machine.

[662] If I'm honest, I'm someone who, like, don't believe in paracetamol's.

[663] I don't, like, take stuff like that.

[664] A mate of mine was always telling me that, like, he's going into this CBD space.

[665] And I'm like, what's CBD?

[666] And he's like, it's basically a natural alternative to medicine.

[667] So I'm like, okay, he's like, it's going to be the future.

[668] Like, it's going to be the future.

[669] So I'm like, all right, cool.

[670] What does it do?

[671] he's like well people come in cancer patients people with MS people with fibromoralgia people with lupus people that can't sleep people that suffer with severe headaches okay and what does it do for them it wouldn't say it cures them but it helps them manage their illness so i'm like all right cool so to me this sounds like paracetamol because i don't believe in paracetamore it don't work on me so i haven't i don't need to i don't take it i haven't taken it for years so i'm right cool I can't link him and I get all the products, yeah, I get all the products and I give it out to family members.

[672] Someone's got fibro maraudia.

[673] Can you just try that and just tell me what happens?

[674] Like, it's absolutely nothing to do with me, just give me honest feedback.

[675] So if they're headaches, you can't sleep, anxiety, whatever, giving it out, giving it out.

[676] Everyone came back and was like, I couldn't sleep, I'm now sleeping.

[677] Or the times when I was having joint problems, I'm rubbing the cream on and I'm okay.

[678] So I'm like, all right, cool.

[679] I haven't told these people this might potentially be anything to do with me. They're just being honest.

[680] I'm like, all right, cool.

[681] What do I have that I can personally try?

[682] So I'm like, all right, I can't sleep.

[683] So let's try some of the others.

[684] Try some of the others.

[685] But I'm sleeping.

[686] I'm like, all right, this is a real thing.

[687] So then like, I was like, cool.

[688] Let me have a conversation with like, actual founder, yeah, a guy called Paul, who's an absolute genius in this realm.

[689] And I'm like, what's your story?

[690] He's like, well, chronic arthritis and he literally, like, has a cannabis background, but he was using CBD to help manage his pain.

[691] And he was like, well, why can't we, you know, open it as a business and, you know, start moving forward and helping people, you know.

[692] So yeah, and then I was just like, I haven't, like, put a lot of time, focus, and money into a lot of other things other than music.

[693] And I've always been waiting to find something.

[694] But I wanted to find, like, I didn't want to go down a clothing route.

[695] Like, I want something that reflects who I am.

[696] I'm an individual who likes to help people, do you get what I'm saying, likes a people's person.

[697] And I honestly think, like, this is, like, the future of medicine, man, like.

[698] And so hopefully, you know, it will go down the route.

[699] where it will become prescribed.

[700] Like if you look at, if you, and for us, it's like it's about growing the business.

[701] We're hoping to have like between 50 and 75 stores within the next three years.

[702] Wow.

[703] And hopefully if it goes to the point where it does turn into like a former chemist, like the fingers of the chemist, you go there and you're like, oh, I've got a headache.

[704] What can I take?

[705] They recommend you a thing.

[706] Or I've got itch.

[707] on my back, you can actually speak to someone and they can tell you, oh no, no, no, no, you're better off getting that cream.

[708] That works better for you.

[709] Cool.

[710] Like, we want to be that kind of version for people that come in because it's a two -way educational street because people are coming in, a lot of people coming with MS, a lot of people coming with cancer.

[711] And I'm like, as much as everyone in the stores are equipped to tell them, there's still new things to learn.

[712] And there's like, still new ideas for different products.

[713] And it's just a new space that, you know, I get to, you know, I get to, you know, to put some focus in and it's something that I think is honestly going to benefit people as well.

[714] And we've tried a lot of the products.

[715] They're all amazing.

[716] This one actually tastes amazing as well.

[717] The grapes and mint drink and we went down there earlier.

[718] We got some coffees and some of the oils and stuff, the creams that I'm going to try as well.

[719] Super interesting.

[720] The other thing that you're involved in, which I think is a fairly new thing, is the Def Jam position.

[721] So you're now the creative director there?

[722] Yeah.

[723] That's dope.

[724] That is just...

[725] It's mad.

[726] Yeah, I'm working with a, like, such a cold bunch man, like everyone, everyone's extremely talented, man. And I think for me, more than anything, like, it's sick to be on this side because understanding it from the other side, like being the artist coming into an office or coming into an environment, I'm going to know the answers to a lot of the things what they're asking because I've been through it as well.

[727] So always on my come -up, like I've always worked or had long conversations with artists that are coming, like whether it be Stormsy or it would be Avalino, whether it would be young and Crepton Con, whoever it may be.

[728] And I think, like, there was never, like, a role or a title or nothing.

[729] And it's like, you're not doing that for money or for finance.

[730] Like, you literally want to see the game nourish.

[731] You want to see everyone blossom.

[732] So it's like, the game's got bigger.

[733] And I think now it's about showing that we're able to work in the infrastructure and add value.

[734] Do you know what I'm saying?

[735] Like, it's valuable.

[736] being inside, to be able to speak to artists.

[737] Do you know what I'm saying?

[738] To be able to create, to be able to implement ideas.

[739] Because what happens is you, like I say, like we jumped on a train at the beginning of 2011 and it just moved.

[740] And then I had to meet a tour manager and I had to meet a booking agent and all these things.

[741] And it's like, I can literally talk you through everything step by step.

[742] And that's like, if we're signing artists at Ground Zero, sometimes there's artists that already put a paper, he's already here, already established.

[743] he signed to us um but it's like just having artistic conversations with artists you know what i mean and i think it's beautiful man i wake up and think art wake up and think creative so to be able to be in a space where i'm able to do that with artists that i love and respect with people that i love and respect as well win win man yeah earlier on you said till death do us part you um don't have a wedding ring on no no no what's the situation there you're in a relationship be dating or so?

[744] Yeah, in a relationship, not married.

[745] Have you struggled with relationships or have you found it being a fairly obsessive person?

[746] Because throughout your story, I saw this word hunger over and ever again, even when other people described you.

[747] And I'm thinking back to Ashley on that kitchen table, getting annoyed at you, you know?

[748] Yeah, I think I'm understanding balance a lot more.

[749] I think that's come with maturity and that's come with age.

[750] Like, balance is important.

[751] I had no balance back then.

[752] none.

[753] It was all about making this happen.

[754] And I don't know if it's because it happened.

[755] Do you what I'm saying?

[756] And maybe if it doesn't happen, maybe we don't get this version of me where I'm more understanding that you've got to divide time.

[757] I think also what was a big eye opener for me, but like once again talking about jumping on that train, yeah, um, from like Like 2011 to 2014, 15, bro, certain times my family's having conversations, yeah, and I'm like, what, when was that?

[758] I know that that was when you was off.

[759] Yeah, it's like I was dead for four years or I was just off the grid.

[760] And it's like, it's never, ever sat well with me. Do you know what I'm saying?

[761] So now, like, I make a conscious effort, a conscious decision to be, like, as someone who who is the backbone and the head of the family, to be it.

[762] Do you what I'm saying?

[763] Because there's two types of, you know, of men that head the family.

[764] And it's one that everyone's financially okay.

[765] And if there's any red letters.

[766] But then there's the one that's able to do that, but is also there as well.

[767] Like an hour on the phone or let's go and sit down and talk for four hours is as powerful as someone who can make a bill, You get what I'm saying?

[768] And I think in 2011, I was more the other guy.

[769] Yeah, I saw it out.

[770] I get, phone this person who can sue it out.

[771] Phone, like someone can sue it out.

[772] I'm suing it out.

[773] But it was like, I'm missing.

[774] And it doesn't make me feel good.

[775] I'm like, I miss graduations.

[776] And do you know what I mean?

[777] Like so much things that because you're busy, they might not invite you to now.

[778] Because we asked you to come last week, but you couldn't make it.

[779] Like I was generally out of the country, but maybe I couldn't make that one, but you didn't ask.

[780] Do you know what I mean?

[781] It's like, doesn't feel good, man. I think I'm probably red -letter guy now.

[782] It's horrible, bro.

[783] Yeah, and not giving enough attention to family in that regard.

[784] How do you balance it?

[785] With my family, it's a really difficult thing.

[786] They kind of live all over the place as well, so they didn't all live in one place.

[787] So really, like, what I do is I try and bring everyone together for Christmas, and I fund the situation at Christmas.

[788] But I know I'm not doing a good enough job, and it's something I'm going to work on.

[789] Fortunately, I met a young lady who, is very unnegotiable about balance.

[790] And like, I genuinely feel that if I don't, I've got to make sure my terminology is correct here.

[791] Because sometimes when people describe their relationships, especially people that are really obsessive, they start to use words like, which make it seem like I'm doing something to please someone so that they don't go.

[792] Yeah.

[793] Whereas not, it's I want to do it.

[794] But she has given me the desire to want to be balanced.

[795] to my life, which means, like, today, during the work day, I went for lunch with her, then came back quickly and, like, carried on with my research on you and stuff.

[796] I would never have done that before.

[797] I would have just woken up in the morning 8 o 'clock, and I would have worked till 1 a .m. until I'd fallen asleep.

[798] And then I would have said to whoever I was with, probably kind of, like, gaslighted them in some way and said, like, oh, you don't understand.

[799] Yeah.

[800] No, no, you found the right person then?

[801] Because then you want to...

[802] Then I want to do it.

[803] It's not compliance.

[804] Yeah, then you want to do it.

[805] You know what I'm saying?

[806] Then you want to.

[807] It's about balance, man. It's about balance.

[808] And even me with the kids as well, like I've got a, my son's 15, yeah, my daughter's 10.

[809] It's like that balance as well.

[810] Like it, you know, at the time when I had my daughter and we then, you know, then, but we separated.

[811] And it was like, it hurts me like my daughter.

[812] She has no recognition of living with me. Do you know what I'm saying?

[813] And it's like, she's like, yeah, my mom said like, you used to live, like, I'm like, what do you mean?

[814] I used to, of course I used to live there.

[815] She'll wake up and come to me and she, I remember.

[816] Then I'm like, I need to overextend to build this relationship because my son has that.

[817] We've had that waking up, him going to sleep, waking up seeing me. Do you know what I'm saying?

[818] And it's just them little things where it's like the kids will come over and I'll be like, oh we're going to do this and my daughter might say to me I have to ask my mum so it's like her concept of a dad was probably more like an uncle yeah do you get what I mean like to your uncle you say no I got to ask my mum but not to your dad but it's like she had to I was like no no I'm in the same level do you know what I'm saying but because she's not seeing me every day like or waking up to me or do you know I mean I'm not tucking her in I was just like bro I had to that it was so important that we get here we get here we get and we're here now but it took it takes time to rebuild man so it's better you build it then have to rebuild it as well what if um you know when you were shot on those CDs and trying to get people to buy those first thousand CDs from your mixtape line from my mixtape what if it just hadn't worked out has that ever crossed your mind what if just you know what if it didn't didn't work out had to how to like the plan B was revert back to to plan A. Any time you felt like you needed to remotely think about doing something else, it was revert back to a plan A. It was always, it was always going to happen.

[819] There's a lot of people that think that and it just doesn't work out.

[820] You know, like, does that haunt you a little bit?

[821] Just like, I think my need was too much, man. My need was too, I became too good at it.

[822] Like the obsession made me better, made me more hungry.

[823] I just became a monster, man. I just, I'm like, no one can rap like I rap.

[824] Do you get what I'm saying?

[825] But that's because I'm listening to everyone rapping and I'm like, all right, cool, how, right, this is what they're doing, yeah?

[826] Like, all right, triple rhymes, cool, I do quadruple.

[827] Do you get what I'm saying?

[828] Like, I was always trying to challenge, trying to push, trying to push, trying to push.

[829] And like, when you've been rapping, like, when your year group is like Gets or Kno or, I mean, or gigs or whatever, like that, that's like, man. age group they're my age mates so it's like when you're listening to gets and he's doing that you're like cool I can't even slip a second you know what I'm saying I've got a I've got a push I've got a push I've got a push I can't it had to happen man I don't see any the story wasn't ending any other way or like this story wasn't having any other middle what would you say to musicians that you know are now coming up in this world of TikTok and you know what do what do what do you think they need to to make it and to follow it in your footsteps I mean, now that you also know the industry as well and the inner mechanics of that.

[830] Because TikTok is, TikTok is powerful now, man. It's the new tastemaker, it's the new library.

[831] Yeah, it's the new discovery, man. And it's like, so remember when I said that there was a formula?

[832] And it was like, if that DJ plays it first on Thursday and then TikTok is a part of that formula now.

[833] Like you put a song on that sounds a certain way, it gets a certain.

[834] an amount of views and that's an indicator to the record labels that this song's going to be amongst, you know, on the playing field of the hit playing field, it's become that.

[835] And I think you can use it to your advantage, but I guess once again, like, the part we are in control of is the song, is the quality, like, always make sure the quality is top notch regardless because all the things everything else would change bro like michael jackson put out tapes vinals now chris brown goes on streaming platforms do you what i'm saying and i launched records on radio first now they launched records on tictock for like everything would change well but the quality will always remain you can't skip it you can't skip leg day man You're at in me then.

[836] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest.

[837] And they don't know who they're writing it for.

[838] They always ask, but we never tell them.

[839] So they've actually written two questions, which is interesting.

[840] The first question they wrote, I'm going to read them both at the same time, is what for you is a life well lived?

[841] And then they wrote, how do you make the most of this moment?

[842] So what for you is a life well lived and how do you make the most of this moment?

[843] A life well lived is waking up every day and having multiple reasons to smile and within that making multiple people smile I always think like life is a record so you're not a record put the needle on and it comes inwards so as it's coming inwards it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller and then it gets to the end in the middle and it stops.

[844] And my thing is like, what song are you listening to while your time -spanning shooting and is it something that's full of purpose, something that's making you smile and something that's energizing other people.

[845] And for me it's like I want to be able to be a positive soundtrack for key moments in other people's lives as well.

[846] So a life well lived is me being happy, bringing happiness, and being able to also add a soundtrack to people's happiest moments.

[847] Vote.

[848] Their partner.

[849] And then the second question was, how did you make the most of this moment?

[850] How do I make the most of this moment?

[851] Living it, man. Living it.

[852] And I think, appreciate it as well.

[853] I think, I say living it because it's easy to be.

[854] be on that train i keep going back to that train it's easy to be on that train and just to keep going keep going keep going but for me we don't meet anyone for no reason there's no meanless conversation you know there's always something to take from a conversation that you thought what the hell was that about do you know i'm saying because we're oh bro