Tuesday, Mar. 6, 2018

[0] Hi there.

[1] It's Michael.

[2] Today on The Daily, something different.

[3] The Times just launched a five -part series called Change Agent, a show in three parts that attempts to solve a real person's problem with a surprising story.

[4] Instead of our usual show today, here's an episode called Boy Problem.

[5] The Daily will be back on Wednesday.

[6] See you then.

[7] Hello?

[8] Hello, hello.

[9] Hi, Charles.

[10] Sorry about that.

[11] No. No worries.

[12] How are you doing today?

[13] I'm a nervous wreck.

[14] I'm absolute positive nervous wreck.

[15] Why?

[16] I'm 80 years old.

[17] My husband passed away seven years ago.

[18] However, this past June, I fell in love.

[19] Oh, my gosh.

[20] I know.

[21] I know.

[22] This is this.

[23] Holy crap.

[24] Oh, my God.

[25] Jesus, Mary, I can't even hardly talk about it.

[26] Really?

[27] Yes.

[28] It was going along fine up until actually he is getting cold feet.

[29] From the New York Times, I'm Charles Duhigg, and this is change agent.

[30] Today, we're talking with Aline.

[31] Start me at the beginning.

[32] Yeah.

[33] How did you meet him the first time?

[34] Sure.

[35] Okay.

[36] I'll give you a short scenario.

[37] The first time I met it was about two years ago.

[38] You know, it was just a whole...

[39] So Aline lives on the East Coast, but she goes out to Washington State every year to visit her son.

[40] And a couple of years ago, she met a man named Larry at the senior center.

[41] I was drawn to him immediately.

[42] Nice sense of humor.

[43] I liked the way he treats his wife.

[44] I just thought it was.

[45] he's a nice man. When I went this past June to, uh, for my visit, I found out that his wife died.

[46] So I was like, oh my God, I felt terrible and then confused at the same time.

[47] I thought, oh my God, he's not married anymore.

[48] I thought to make things worse.

[49] He said, why don't I take you home?

[50] So we went for ice cream.

[51] And in the meantime, I'm the dog.

[52] I'm going to do.

[53] And the lying inside.

[54] Everything is going crazy.

[55] At the end of the night, he gave her his phone number.

[56] Aline flew back to the East Coast, and then about a week later, she called him.

[57] Oh, my God, I was a wreck.

[58] Yeah.

[59] I was.

[60] I thought, what am I doing?

[61] I wanted to hear his voice.

[62] They started chatting every night.

[63] And then?

[64] We had phone sex.

[65] Was that the first time you had had phone sex?

[66] Yeah.

[67] I never thought it would work.

[68] I knew.

[69] I heard about it.

[70] You know, I thought this doesn't work.

[71] And half the time, we're laughing, but I am hot as ever.

[72] I am just out of my mind.

[73] I am so freaking hot.

[74] Now, you must know, I met my husband when I was 19.

[75] We were married for 52 years.

[76] Wow.

[77] So I have not been with anybody else.

[78] I have not been in love with anybody else.

[79] Yeah.

[80] And I began to feel like an excitement for life.

[81] Before that, I was feeling dread because I didn't know what I was going to do.

[82] Yeah.

[83] And also I felt like I wanted to write.

[84] And he was excited for me, and he said, you should write.

[85] They started writing stories together over email, talking on the phone constantly.

[86] And this went on for a couple of months.

[87] But then?

[88] Sent him emails Monday and Tuesday, and this morning.

[89] It all just stopped.

[90] Nothing.

[91] Nothing at all.

[92] No. So what do you think is going on?

[93] Up until last night, I was thinking that he's just getting cold feet.

[94] But last night I thought, oh, my God, he hopped in the truck and he's driving across the country.

[95] Across the country?

[96] Yes.

[97] Now, I know that's right.

[98] sounds far -fetch, but he had been a long haul truck driver, and we were co -writing a story, and in that story, he did that.

[99] Wow.

[100] This is a very strong possibility.

[101] So she waited and waited, but he never showed up.

[102] A couple of weeks later, Elene got back in touch with him.

[103] with me. She'd finally heard from him.

[104] Okay.

[105] Sunday night, I was out to dinner with friends, and he called.

[106] I didn't hear the phone ring.

[107] I went to the ladies' room and listened to the voicemail.

[108] The voice mail said that.

[109] He didn't want me to be hurt, and we could just be brother and sister.

[110] I just felt so sad.

[111] Oh, my God.

[112] Yeah.

[113] I felt shaking inside, you know, that makes you feel weak.

[114] Yeah.

[115] Yeah, that's how I felt.

[116] Oh, okay.

[117] I'm going out there in February.

[118] Yeah.

[119] And I'm not letting go so easy.

[120] Really?

[121] Oh, yeah.

[122] Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You're going to give it another try?

[123] Oh, you're not kidding.

[124] You know what I think we can help you with it?

[125] I think we can help you figure out the strategy.

[126] What?

[127] Fantastic.

[128] I don't have one.

[129] We're going to figure out how you can ensnare this man. Or at least we'll try.

[130] We'll do our best.

[131] There's a 50 -50 chance.

[132] Yes, yes, exactly.

[133] So that was the plan.

[134] But then we got another email from Ellie.

[135] It said, we need to talk.

[136] Sanity is returning and not sure if this will work anymore.

[137] Oh, dear God.

[138] Oh, dear God.

[139] So I called her up.

[140] A lot of us changed for me emotionally.

[141] And that thing happened to Aline that I think happens to a lot of us.

[142] That after a breakup, it feels like you'll never get over it.

[143] But then a few weeks go by and you start feeling better about things.

[144] I'm not pining, so to speak, for him anymore.

[145] I'm happy that he has found somebody.

[146] Larry had met another woman.

[147] And after just a few weeks, they'd gotten married.

[148] Really?

[149] Yes.

[150] Do you think he moved too fast?

[151] Like, are you worried that he...

[152] Oh.

[153] Well, listen.

[154] We're both 80, right?

[155] Yeah.

[156] He was lonely, and he doesn't need somebody.

[157] And he certainly doesn't need somebody 3 ,000 miles away.

[158] And then I realized that I want to feel as excited and interested in life as I was feeling with him.

[159] Yeah.

[160] Before, my happiness was contained with my husband, with my children.

[161] So I am looking for another way to, how am I going to spend the rest of my life?

[162] I want to be happy, and I'm not.

[163] What do you think you want?

[164] What do I think I want?

[165] Yeah.

[166] Aha.

[167] I haven't a clue.

[168] How do you figure out what you want?

[169] This is a question we all struggle with as we're growing.

[170] up.

[171] But apparently, even when you're all grown up and in your 80s, it's still hard to answer, especially when you've spent your whole life thinking about what other people want.

[172] We're going to put Aline on hold for now.

[173] And after the break, we'll hear about a woman who figured out a way to answer this question.

[174] And then we'll go back to Aline to see if it can help her.

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[182] Act.

[183] Excuse me. But close your eyes.

[184] Close your eyes.

[185] We're back with reporter Annie Brown, who went out to find a story that could help Aline figure out what she wants.

[186] Annie, open your eyes.

[187] Oh, my God.

[188] This is where I live.

[189] I'm standing in Diane Gilman's new penthouse on the Upper East Side of Manhattan.

[190] I never thought I'd be able to say that.

[191] Penthouse, penthouse, penthouse.

[192] It's a palace of fur and velvet in shades of tope.

[193] I work with color all day long.

[194] I just didn't want come home to color.

[195] Diane is a fashion designer.

[196] She's in her 70s, but she doesn't look like it.

[197] She's got big red hair and prominent cheekbones.

[198] She's never been richer or happier, and she's definitely never owned a chair as cool as this one.

[199] The whole lining around the chair are dried ostrich feathers, which one of my cats finds irresistibly delicious.

[200] But just to a couple of decades ago, you wouldn't recognize Diane.

[201] Now, get ready to have fun and save money on the Home Shopping Channel.

[202] I was in the backwater of fashion.

[203] And you look at yourself in the mirror and say, oh my God, how did I get to this point?

[204] Most of us know the Home Shopping Network as the place you'd buy a Thighmaster or a flashy bracelet.

[205] And back in 97, Diane's corner of this market, was washable silk.

[206] Quite frankly, it was a little bit on the depressing side.

[207] And I just thought to myself, really?

[208] Is this how I envisaged my career?

[209] Of course, this is not how Diane had envisaged her career.

[210] Because Diane got her start, designing jeans for rock and roll icons.

[211] I would take Janice Joplin's jeans or Jimmy Hendrix jeans or the Jefferson Airplane and I would rip them, slash them, embroider them, hand -paint them.

[212] I was known for making these great -looking jeans.

[213] And for Diane, designing jeans was about more than the fashion.

[214] It was a whole philosophy.

[215] I was raised in a very repressive era in the 50s.

[216] I tried to wear jeans to high school.

[217] I got sent home.

[218] They were boys' clothing.

[219] So I think that jeans were super symbolic of freedom, youth, and being wild.

[220] These jeans launched her career, and soon Diane was at the top of the fashion world.

[221] I remember being in a taxi and saying to the taxi driver, you see those windows, that's all my designs.

[222] And then we would drive by Bloomingdale's.

[223] And I would say, and that's all my designs.

[224] And then we drive past Bonwood Tellers, and I said, oh, and that's my designs.

[225] And then I signed a contract with a big Hong Kong consortium.

[226] It didn't work out, basically because they didn't pay me. And I lost my name for years.

[227] Diane lost the rights to her own name, which was also the name of her label.

[228] And that's when she landed at the home shopping network, selling something called washable silk, clothes that look like silk, but don't have to be dry cleaned.

[229] But this was the woman who made jeans for Jimmy Hendricks and Janice Joplin.

[230] Diane had gotten so far away from that wild, free person she was back then.

[231] She didn't even wear jeans anymore.

[232] So I go out and I go to try and find a pair of jeans, and you go to some of the big category killer stores like the gap and nothing fits.

[233] Okay, so then you start trying on men's jeans and no, that's not really right.

[234] In one store, she nearly has a breakdown when the saleswoman knocks on her fitting room door.

[235] How you doing, hon?

[236] How the fuck do you think I'm doing?

[237] I've got a 32 -inch waist.

[238] I'm trying to stuff it into a gene that has a 27 -inch waist.

[239] I've got muffins spill from here to Mars.

[240] I can't breathe and no, I'm not feeling good, hon. Of course, it was more than just the jeans.

[241] My husband died.

[242] I gained all this weight.

[243] I didn't love the product I was showing.

[244] It was sort of like everything hit at once.

[245] I remember walking into Central Park, tears streaming down my eyes.

[246] I thought, okay, what am I going to do here with the rest of my life?

[247] And the thing she did next changed everything for her.

[248] I took out a crumpled napkin, and I decided to write down everything I hated about my life, long list.

[249] Everything I liked about my life, super shortlist, and what I was going to do about it.

[250] And I wanted something more out of my talent than just designing washable silk.

[251] What do I really want?

[252] I want to design jeans.

[253] She started by measuring herself.

[254] The first gene I designed, I had my sewing room, sew it up.

[255] And did you actually, like, fit the jeans to your actual body?

[256] Yeah.

[257] I'm the fit model.

[258] They were stretchy, with a wider waist and a slimmer leg.

[259] And I remember walking down the street, and two guys were working in a manhole.

[260] Both of them stood up out of that manhole, looked at me. One of them whistled, and the other one said, beautiful.

[261] And I said to myself, wow, this feels really good.

[262] So Diane convinced the Home Shopping Network to let her try an experiment, making jeans for older women like her.

[263] The factories kept saying, wait a minute, these measurements, is this a typo?

[264] You want a 32 -inch waist on a size 8?

[265] And I said, yeah, I want a 32 -inch waist.

[266] And then the big day arrived.

[267] But there were some problems.

[268] First of all, Diane was not selling on primetime.

[269] Who wants to get up at 5 a .m. to watch a teller retailing show?

[270] I mean, come on.

[271] Plus, Diane had planned to sell the jeans alongside shirts and accessories, but...

[272] The container ship, I don't know, must have been a storm at sea, but the only thing that got through to the warehouse were the jeans.

[273] And I remember sitting in bed, crying, and saying, And nobody's going to buy it because there's nothing to go with it.

[274] Oh, my God, this is so horrible.

[275] That morning, she got up, pulled on a pair of her jeans and drove to the studio.

[276] And we went on air.

[277] Diane's standing next to a rack of jeans.

[278] She shows the audience the pair she's wearing, the stretchy waist, how she's not spilling over the top.

[279] And when it goes from like 25 people ordering to like 600 people ordering, I thought, okay, there's something huge going on here.

[280] And they sold out at 5 in the morning within minutes.

[281] And that was just the beginning.

[282] More than 102 ,000 pair of her fabulous today's specials have been ordered.

[283] Now, Diane is one of the home shopping network's most successful sellers.

[284] Because you know something, Gina, we love what we're wearing.

[285] 10 million jeans later, I realized that that list was the most important tool I could have in life and I still go back and look at it.

[286] Pardon me, I'm hiccuping.

[287] When I get excited, I start hiccuping.

[288] And when she's not on TV selling jeans, Diane's in her Upper East Side penthouse.

[289] Somebody threw up a little here.

[290] With her cats and her ostrich chair.

[291] I think maybe we just ate one too many ostrich feathers off the chair.

[292] Reporter Annie Brown.

[293] When we come back, we'll return to Aline and do a little experiment to see if Diane's story can help her.

[294] Support for Change Agent comes from Comcast Business.

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[296] That's why you need a fast, reliable connection that lets your business dream big.

[297] Comcast business is offering gig speed internet across their network, allowing for speeds up to 20 times faster than what most people have.

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[302] I wish I had met somebody like Diane years ago.

[303] We're back with Aline.

[304] So if a list really helped Diane figure out what she wanted, we thought Elion should start there.

[305] This is what I love.

[306] First, you list out the things you love about your life.

[307] What I love is music.

[308] I love willow trees.

[309] I love men with a sense of humor.

[310] Pretty much.

[311] I like men altogether.

[312] I love massages and dancing and reading.

[313] And soaking in the tub.

[314] And then the things you hate.

[315] My living arrangement at the moment.

[316] Not having a purpose in life?

[317] Negative people.

[318] I want to be around people that feel good about life.

[319] God.

[320] And finally, the big question.

[321] What you want.

[322] Well, obviously.

[323] I want to be doing something that makes me happy.

[324] I want to be helpful to people.

[325] There's a lot of sad people in the senior center that I belong to.

[326] So I guess it made me start to think of hand massage.

[327] Did you ever have a massage on your hands?

[328] I don't think I've ever gotten a hand massage.

[329] Oh, my God.

[330] It feels 10 times better than how good it feels on your back.

[331] But older people don't like it.

[332] to be touched very much.

[333] And I go around to hug people when I'm at the senior center.

[334] I'm lucky if I can get two hugs.

[335] And in the process of making this list, Eileen realized it's not just about what she wants to do.

[336] It's about who she wants to be.

[337] I was not a very expressive person.

[338] But what opened up when I had this relationship with Larry was a freedom of speaking how I felt.

[339] Oh, my God.

[340] Yeah?

[341] I want that.

[342] I don't care.

[343] Hey, I wanted this by myself.

[344] I don't want another person to have to give it to me. So here's the plan.

[345] A month or two ago, I really thought I needed to confront him and say, hey, you kind of trampled on my heart.

[346] But I don't feel that way anymore.

[347] Aline is going on her annual trip to visit her son in Washington State, and she's going to talk to Larry, the guy who started this whole thing.

[348] And the goal isn't to get him back, but.

[349] to embrace this new way of being open and expressing herself.

[350] To let him know how I felt, but also let him know that the effect he had on me, which was good.

[351] And I would love for us still to be friends.

[352] Okay.

[353] Which is how reporter Annie Brown ended up in a car outside a senior center in Washington.

[354] It's Thursday.

[355] That means Bridge Day at the Bonnie Lake.

[356] Lake Senior Center.

[357] And Larry never misses a bridge game.

[358] How are you feeling?

[359] Couldn't make up my mind what to wear.

[360] So I wore what I wore yesterday.

[361] Aline is wearing a loose black sweatshirt and a large medallion necklace.

[362] Actually, this is my sexy outfit.

[363] The plan is to catch Larry after his bridge game.

[364] It's 9 .30 in the morning.

[365] And Larry's bridge game isn't until one.

[366] But we want to be early.

[367] And he doesn't know that we're coming today.

[368] No, I couldn't get a hold of him.

[369] Yeah, I couldn't either.

[370] I tried calling him and emailing him.

[371] Turns out Larry's pretty hard to get a hold of.

[372] He doesn't have a cell phone, and he disconnected his landline after he moved into his new wife's house.

[373] We go inside.

[374] Around 10 .30, we have lunch.

[375] And then we play cards and visit until the bridge game starts.

[376] I'm pretty sure he's going to show.

[377] Nothing keeps him away from playing bridge.

[378] About an hour into the game, still, no, Larry.

[379] What are we going to do if he doesn't show up?

[380] I don't know.

[381] I'm just thinking the same thing.

[382] Why, if he doesn't show up, this one of the bitch?

[383] The bridge game's over.

[384] So, as a last resort, Aline asks someone at the senior center for Larry's new number.

[385] So we'll try the home number.

[386] And she calls from the car.

[387] There goes nothing.

[388] They're out.

[389] I'll leave a message.

[390] Okay.

[391] I'm trying to find Larry.

[392] I know he's hiding there someplace.

[393] Just wanted to talk to him for a bit.

[394] Oh, you're there.

[395] Son of a gun.

[396] I thought I'd see you at the center today.

[397] Ah.

[398] Well, listen.

[399] Would you in a Red Electric come to an ice cream store or a coffee shop or something?

[400] Oh, great.

[401] When?

[402] This afternoon, now?

[403] Baskin Robbins.

[404] That's perfect.

[405] I'll see you there.

[406] Okay.

[407] Bye bye.

[408] Bye -bye.

[409] Oh, my God.

[410] A few minutes after we get to Baskin -Robbins, Larry and his wife pushed through the door, laughing.

[411] Aline is quiet and gives Larry a hug.

[412] He's tall.

[413] He's got a big white beard and a worn -in trucker hat.

[414] She wants a cherry cone.

[415] His wife sits down while Larry orders.

[416] What's on there?

[417] This is Scutterbotch and...

[418] Scudderbotch?

[419] Is that what you called it?

[420] Did I get it backwards again?

[421] I must have had it back backwards.

[422] I'm sorry.

[423] Larry and his wife seem relaxed.

[424] They're happy to see Aline.

[425] We get a table.

[426] They all talk about their grandkids for a while.

[427] And Aline's lemon ice cream is almost completely melted before.

[428] But anyway, I must have really been depressed all last winter before I came out here.

[429] But then talking to you, I felt so much better.

[430] You gave me a lot of confidence in myself.

[431] And I have to say, I was very sad when he stopped because he met you.

[432] I was very sad.

[433] But I've grown up so much that now I can say with a full and open heart.

[434] I don't need one person to make me feel this way all the time.

[435] If I'm doing something that makes me happy.

[436] Right.

[437] You make you own happy.

[438] He's dripping.

[439] A drop of ice cream falls into Larry's beard.

[440] I stay close by him, so I can take care of him.

[441] His wife, Aretta, dabs it clean with a napkin.

[442] She is handy.

[443] Be gentle now.

[444] Yeah, so this is what I came up with, to begin with.

[445] What I want to do is give hand massages, especially to the old.

[446] of people, especially the people in senior centers, you know, we're old.

[447] Our hands are...

[448] Get stiff.

[449] Yeah, they get stiff and they don't...

[450] And at some point, Larry turns to me and says...

[451] She's a totally different person now.

[452] She was kind of quiet, standoffish.

[453] Now she's bubbly, forward.

[454] He says that a few years ago when he met Aline, he only saw a glimmer of this person.

[455] As I remember her, there's a person.

[456] and inside that is not as seen as often.

[457] But I just tell by looking at her now, she's sneaking out.

[458] Pretty soon, Aline takes Aretta's hand.

[459] Areta, when I told you that if he loves you, then I love you, I meant it with my whole heart.

[460] Then Larry puts his hand on top of theirs.

[461] I'm too old to be so serious about everything.

[462] And they just sit there.

[463] These three 80 -year -olds.

[464] holding hands and chatting about their futures.

[465] I can't get hugs.

[466] And so, I know.

[467] You need at least four a day.

[468] And then we're back in the car.

[469] How are you feeling right now?

[470] I'm feeling great.

[471] It was easier to say than I thought it would be.

[472] I might not have been able to say it.

[473] if it was the old me. I wouldn't have exposed myself.

[474] Yep.

[475] But you did it.

[476] Yeah, I did.

[477] I did.

[478] I did.

[479] Didn't I?

[480] Yep.

[481] Thank you.

[482] Elene went home from her trip, her list in hand.

[483] She got a lesson from her niece, who's a massage therapist.

[484] And the Senior Center told her she can start giving hand massages anytime she wants.

[485] Change Agent is produced by Annie Brown and Alexandra Lee Young and hosted by Charles Duhigg.

[486] Wendy Doer edited the show with Larissa Anderson, who's also the managing producer.

[487] Lisa Tobin is our executive producer, and Samantha Hennig is our editorial director.

[488] Eddie Cooper composed our theme song, and Andrew Dunn and Brad Fisher engineered this episode.

[489] Special thanks to Sam Dolnik, Andy Mills, and Pierre Antoine Louis.