S2: E4 - Avaya

[0] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[1] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[2] We cloned his voice using AI.

[3] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode.

[4] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[5] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[6] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[7] As I track down clues.

[8] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[9] Hunting.

[10] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[11] Robert Fisher.

[12] Do you recognize my voice?

[13] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday.

[14] on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[15] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[16] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[17] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[18] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[19] Listen to the podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast, weekly and every day during the Games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[20] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[21] I found out what happened to all of them, except one, a woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[22] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[23] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[24] Hear the story on Where's Deer?

[25] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[26] Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners.

[27] Please take care while listening.

[28] I'm so poorly.

[29] Me and my mother, it was unfair and it's rude, and I don't want any other child to ever have to go through that ever.

[30] I'm asking for you to send him to the visiting.

[31] I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a good friend.

[32] betrayal.

[33] Episode 4.

[34] Avea.

[35] On our last episode, you heard the sentencing hearing for Jason Linton.

[36] He pled guilty to one count of sexual exploitation of a minor and two counts of voyeurism.

[37] His stepdaughter Avea made a plea to the judge to send him to prison.

[38] Would Jason go to jail or be set free?

[39] That decision was in the hands of Judge Metler.

[40] Okay.

[41] Thank you, everyone, for your input.

[42] You've been thinking about this for a while.

[43] This is a tough one.

[44] And the court makes decisions concerning sentencing.

[45] The court really is balancing ways in which the victim can be made whole, which frankly, it's pretty unusual when the victim can truly be made whole.

[46] Rehabilitating the defendant is an important factor, and then, of course, punishment.

[47] Child pornography is a horrible thing, and it's been a victimized so many young girls and boys, and it's terrible.

[48] But the voyeurism charges here are really serious.

[49] The position of trust that you help with respect to your stepdaughter and violating that in the way that you did, I agree with Mr. Sutton.

[50] They really take this case to a different level and warrant some pretty significant punishment.

[51] Okay, so for the crime of sexual exploitation of a minor or a second -free felony, courts would impose a term of Utah State Prison not less than one or more than 15 years.

[52] And for each count of boyers and both class A misdemeanor's courts to impose a term in jail after a seat 364 days.

[53] The court's going to order the two voyeurism counts on concurrent to one another and consecutive to the prison sentence imposed on the sexual exploitation of a minor count.

[54] And on the second and three felony, court's going to suspend that sentence in place Mr. Lynn on probation for 48 months to be supervised by AP &P.

[55] To put it simply, Jason got less than a year of jail time for both voyeurism charges and would need to register as a sex offender.

[56] Less than one year.

[57] How is that even possible?

[58] I really thought this type of crime carried a hefty prison sentence, but that's not the case.

[59] We'll get into that later on in the episode.

[60] Not to mention, the one to 15 -year sentence for sexual exploitation of a minor, it was suspended, meaning he wouldn't need to serve it if he doesn't violate probation.

[61] After Judge Metler rendered her sentence, an officer came and handcuffed Jason.

[62] He was going immediately to Salt Lake County, county jail.

[63] Now, Avea, the victim of his voyeurism, could start to catch her breath and not fear seeing him out and about.

[64] And Ashley could really start to rebuild.

[65] But nothing would be the same as before Jason was arrested.

[66] We wanted to see how Avea was doing after Jason was sentenced.

[67] So about a month after the hearing, I met Ashley and Avea at home in Riverton.

[68] Do you guys mind to see you guys?

[69] Do you guys mind to see?

[70] talking into the microphones just so we can do some level checks.

[71] Bop, pop, bop, bop.

[72] Just kidding.

[73] Okay, your turn.

[74] Bup, bop, bop.

[75] Great.

[76] It was really nice to meet Avea face -to -face.

[77] She's Ashley's mini -me, though she's taller than her mom, but everyone is taller than Ashley.

[78] What struck me about Avea was her confidence and her maturity.

[79] She seemed wise beyond her years.

[80] And I just wanted to remind you that her courts, sponsored therapist supported her participation in the podcast.

[81] And she was open with her feelings, starting with Jason's sentencing hearing.

[82] So Avea, when I talked to your mom a few months before the sentencing hearing, she didn't think you would go to court.

[83] But it looks like you changed your mind.

[84] Why?

[85] I had really thought about it.

[86] And so when I went in there, I had a whole bunch of things that I wanted to say to the judge and to Jason.

[87] And I wanted to at least try and make an impact on I didn't want to be just like a bystander, don't want to just do nothing.

[88] Before he got locked up, I'd be laying in bed some nights, and I'd just sit there thinking, like, I hope no one's out there, you know, someone's looking, someone's creeping.

[89] Like, you get that feeling, you know?

[90] But ever since he's gotten locked up, I haven't had that feeling.

[91] I'm really happy you haven't had that feeling, because that must have been really scary.

[92] It's hard to imagine not feeling safe in your own home, and I really don't know how you processed and navigated that as a teenager.

[93] none of us knew how to express like our emotions because we were all so sad but we were all like yet so upset about what had happened and we still loved him yeah we still loved him like we felt like it was wrong too because we were like we were like oh well he was our dad like he was my dad like I loved him like I loved the guy that he was but like I don't know who this is I had put in so much trust into him because my dad wasn't there and so he had taken on that role of being my dad so I had trusted him so much and I had really let him him into my life and I was just morally mad though that he had torn up our family like he had broke our family and he had you know hurt hurt my mom and my brother and my sister and what he did to me I was definitely I was pretty hurt about a lot of your family members mentioned to me that you were a serious soccer player but this whole experience just made competing impossible what happened there.

[94] At RSL, you have to have good grades to be on the team no matter what.

[95] And you can't miss more than two days of school.

[96] Like, there's some new rules and things like that.

[97] And if you're going to an athletic school, you're going to be around some cocky -ass people all day.

[98] But there was some cool people.

[99] Yeah.

[100] I mean, yeah, there was, there are some pretty awesome people there, but time to get dressed up every day.

[101] You know, that was, that was really hard for me. And so I was so overwhelmed with everything that I just, I didn't want to be around people.

[102] Yeah, it sounds to me like you just needed a breather.

[103] So you switch to an alternative school, and just to be clear for people listening and just to make sure I'm understanding it right, all that means is it's a school that educates kids differently than a typical public school.

[104] Ashley, I know you had a lot of dreams pinned on Aveya Soccer.

[105] Were you on board with her leaving?

[106] Was that hard for you?

[107] I mean, we definitely struggled.

[108] your whole life we've had like this one plan soccer scholarships california California but I guess what I'm hearing and I didn't realize I mean you don't want to be around all those people and then they knew this awful secret you know it wasn't just like one thing it was kind of all of it was so piled up on you that yeah yeah definitely the reason why I wanted to go to valley was it was a way better alternative for me was succeeding a lot more.

[109] I was on honor roll.

[110] When you go to an alternative school, too, people are there to get their shit done.

[111] Like, there's people that are there that have kids and they're sitting in the daycare.

[112] Like, we have a daycare at our school too.

[113] Like, we'll have people that have kids, and they'll go and do some, like, homework and stuff.

[114] You could show up and with the messy butt in your hair and no makeup.

[115] No one would care.

[116] That's another reason why I really like Valley, too, is because it's, like, a really not -judgmental area.

[117] I kind of felt like I just had to trust what you were doing.

[118] Even if I didn't think it was like best choice, you know?

[119] Like I wanted you to play soccer.

[120] And you were a beast.

[121] Yeah.

[122] You're amazing on the field.

[123] Yeah.

[124] You know, and I get that like your passion for it's not there anymore.

[125] I get it.

[126] And you also have a job, right?

[127] I work at a daycare.

[128] I'm an opener.

[129] So I get there at 6 o 'clock in the morning.

[130] And I basically watch kids from the age five months all the way up to like 10 years old.

[131] And, yeah, I love it.

[132] I love my job.

[133] Why did you want to participate in this project?

[134] So when my mother had first told me about this project, I kind of was like, what is she?

[135] Like, she's crazy.

[136] Like, she has lost her mind.

[137] Like, something is wrong with her.

[138] Like, she is her, she batshit crazy.

[139] She thinks that she's getting on a damn podcast.

[140] And so when she had finally started getting into depth with everything, I actually thought that it was really cool.

[141] I want to be able to impact other people.

[142] I want to be able to talk to other people, let other people know that, like, they're not alone in these kinds of situations and that I know exactly how they feel.

[143] It's okay to not be okay for a minute, and that eventually you're going to get back up on your feet.

[144] There may be road bumps, but definitely get back up on your feet, you know?

[145] Ashley, I know you wrote into us on a very bad day.

[146] But Avea, I think there are two reasons your mom wanted to do this.

[147] Put her life out in public.

[148] Share her story.

[149] one is to look for a community because we know this is happening in a lot of other homes but also because she wants to let you know some things right after it happened and jason went to jail that whole first month was kind of a blur i feel like for all of us yeah definitely was but after he got out of jail do you remember me going over to his grandpa's house to see him?

[150] What did you think about that?

[151] Just kind of frustrated me. I just didn't understand.

[152] Yeah, I think looking back on that time, there's a couple things that I wish I would have done differently, but I didn't.

[153] And one of those things is, you know, when he got out, I kind of switched back.

[154] into wifey mode.

[155] And just for clarity, Ashley, you're talking about after Jason was arrested and then released before he pled guilty.

[156] So before the sentencing hearing.

[157] Yeah, I was trying to manage our family, you know, you and your brother and sister, plus still be his wife.

[158] And even like with everything that happened, there wasn't a lot of people in like your corner when we should have been.

[159] When we found out that this happened, we should have cocooned around you.

[160] It wasn't your job to step up and be mini -mom while I was having a meltdown.

[161] That wasn't your job.

[162] And I think us not doing that pushed you away.

[163] And I'm so sorry.

[164] That wasn't fair to you.

[165] That was why I went to sit with my dad.

[166] It was the only one that was really in my course.

[167] He was the only one that really stood up and asked her, are you okay, you know?

[168] That's why I stayed there.

[169] And at the beginning of all this, too, it was all such like a big, like, shock to all of us.

[170] It's not a good excuse, though.

[171] But no, like, the thing is, too, I really don't remember, like, everything, you know?

[172] I'm telling you right now, Mom, like, we were all in shock.

[173] Like, everyone had to write to be in shock in that situation, and you were definitely in shock, and I was, too.

[174] I'm not mad at you.

[175] I'm really, I'm really not mad at you.

[176] Maybe you're not right now.

[177] Well, maybe someday you might be though.

[178] Maybe someday I might, we'll be.

[179] But also maybe a point where I'm not ever going to be mad at you.

[180] Like, this is not your fault.

[181] I'm telling you, like, from this point right now, like in my life, like, I'm not mad at my mother whatsoever.

[182] Like, I'm beyond proud of my mother, beyond anything.

[183] I love you.

[184] I love you.

[185] BFF.

[186] Forever.

[187] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[188] Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[189] We cloned his voice using AI.

[190] In 2001, police say I killed my family.

[191] First mom, then the kids.

[192] And rigged my house to explode.

[193] In a quiet suburb.

[194] This is the Beverly Hills of the valley.

[195] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[196] There was sleet and hill and snow coming down.

[197] They found my wife's SUV.

[198] Right on the reservation boundary.

[199] And my dog flew.

[200] All I could think of is going to sniper me out of some tree.

[201] But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[202] For two years, they won't tell you anything.

[203] I've traveled the nation.

[204] I'm going down in the cave.

[205] Tracking down clues.

[206] They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere.

[207] If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[208] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[209] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[210] Do you recognize my voice?

[211] Join an exploding house.

[212] The hunt.

[213] Family annihilation.

[214] Today.

[215] And a disappearing act.

[216] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[217] The podium is.

[218] back, with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[219] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[220] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[221] We are athletes for going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[222] Listen to The Podium on the I -Heart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[223] In the summer of 2020, in the small mountain town of Idlewild, California, five women disappeared in the span of just a few months.

[224] Eventually, I found out what happened to the women, all except one.

[225] A woman named Lydia Abrams, known as Dia.

[226] Her friends and family ran through endless theories.

[227] Was she hurt hiking?

[228] Did she run away?

[229] Had she been kidnapped?

[230] I'm Lucy Sherrith.

[231] I've been reporting this story for four years, and I've uncovered a tangled web of manipulation, estranged families and greed.

[232] Everyone, it seems, has a different version of events.

[233] Hear the story on Where's Deer, my new podcast from Pushkin Industries and IHeart Podcasts.

[234] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[235] At the beginning of this series, I told you that we had received several letters about families being destroyed because the husband was looking at illegal images of children online like Jason.

[236] And I will freely admit, before we really investigated, I assumed these offenders are put away for a long time.

[237] I really thought the law through the book at them.

[238] They were off the street.

[239] But when I met Ashley and other women who reached out, I learned that isn't necessarily the case.

[240] Even as I record this episode, Jason is halfway through his sentence and will be out in the community in the not too distant future.

[241] And you might be asking yourself, why should I care?

[242] Jason Lytton isn't my husband or my son or my brother.

[243] Here's why you should care.

[244] There aren't enough prisons in the world to hold all the people who are looking at this material.

[245] It's insane.

[246] These offenders are in your neighborhood and mine.

[247] They are blue -collar, white -collar, doctors, lawyers, construction workers, teachers, clergy, police officers.

[248] They encompass every walk of life.

[249] I didn't realize how uninformed I was on this topic.

[250] The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children received over 29 million tips just last year alone, from online companies like Facebook, Google, and others that detect these images.

[251] And here's something else I learned.

[252] Even the words child pornography are a problem.

[253] As I reached out to law enforcement and talked with people who work with victims, I discovered that they used the term child sexual abuse material.

[254] So why haven't I heard this term before?

[255] Probably because it's not in the media.

[256] It's not good clickbait.

[257] A headline that says local coach arrested for child porn is going to get a lot more traction than local coach arrested for child sexual abuse material, just the way it is.

[258] But here's why it matters to victims.

[259] Online pornography usually refers to adults who have consented to be filmed, but that's never the case when the images depict children.

[260] It is abuse.

[261] These are pictures of crimes that have already been committed.

[262] children can't legally consent to sex they can't consent to having images of their abuse recorded and distributed so child sexual abuse material is a more accurate description but it's also a mouthful so often the term CSAM is used for short look no one ever imagines that someone they love would do this I feel for victims like Avea I feel for mothers and wives just like Ashley I feel for anyone whose life is upended by discovering a family member is involved.

[263] So I really wanted to know, why is CSAM so prevalent and lurking under the radar?

[264] And what is law enforcement and the justice system up against to keep families like Ashley's safe?

[265] In the 90s, child sexual abuse reports were predominantly handled by the U .S. Postal Service, who was responsible for intercepting things like magazine.

[266] and that type of contraband that would be sent around.

[267] That's Gabriel Danz.

[268] He is a reporter for the New York Times.

[269] And in 2019, he and his colleague Michael Keller published a groundbreaking investigative series called Exploited, which documented how CSAM has exploded, along with the growth of the Internet and social media.

[270] What we know is that with the advent of cell phones and the Internet, there was both the opportunity to produce material much more easily and also the opportunity to distribute that material much more widely.

[271] The internet also provided the opportunity for people with similar interests to get together, learn from each other, and create online clubs.

[272] Which is fine when you're talking about baking or car repair, but this is an underground that shares information on CSAM, how to acquire it, produce it, and hide it.

[273] Average citizens are downloading and viewing this material.

[274] Some states get 3 ,000 cyber tips a day.

[275] New York Times reporter Michael Keller.

[276] One question that we heard a lot was, well, what's the big deal?

[277] They're just sharing images.

[278] Why is that so bad?

[279] Why should someone be punished for that?

[280] And in speaking with survivors of the abuse, We really understood that it is the ongoing trade in imagery that makes this that much more serious and harmful to the people involved.

[281] We spoke with two sisters anonymously who were abused by their father who couldn't show their faces because there are people online trying to find them and track them down.

[282] And it prevents them from living a normal life.

[283] And that is due to the ongoing trade in the images, well past the actual abuse.

[284] These are people who have had some of the worst crimes you could possibly imagine documented and shared for the pleasure of other people.

[285] Former Utah United States attorney, John Huber.

[286] This goes on constantly.

[287] Dozens upon hundreds of cases where you have these images.

[288] and collections and trading images and bartering them like their baseball cards.

[289] And it's those run -of -the -mill offenders that I am so concerned about because they're not getting the attention in court or according to state law that I believe they should.

[290] During my tenure as United States attorney, we were getting some pushback from federal judges of why are you bringing these cases, people looking at pictures.

[291] You know, what's the big deal?

[292] This is in federal court.

[293] And so we thought that was a misunderstanding and that we need to communicate better to the judges what we're talking about.

[294] You can probably imagine Ashley's surprise when she first learned what kind of justice Jason would be facing.

[295] The prosecutor made it sound like he's not going to go to prison and the most time that he's going to do is probably six months in jail.

[296] That was pretty normal for this type of offense.

[297] and I'm like, are you kidding me?

[298] The punishment just didn't seem to fit the crime.

[299] This doesn't just upset victims.

[300] It also demoralizes law enforcement.

[301] Riverton Detective Jason Rue was one of the first who looked at the hidden file and had to view the evidence.

[302] It frustrates me, especially with these kind of crimes.

[303] It's a lifelong sentence for these victims.

[304] And not just the victim, but the victim's mom or the victim him's dead or whoever else might know of this and the family, and you're letting them out in six months to a year with probation for four.

[305] That means basically someone's coming to check up on them every now and then, asking if they're doing okay.

[306] And if you're waiting for the federal government to jump on the problem, don't hold your breath.

[307] We found systemic failures in responding to this rising problem.

[308] And one of the big things was the failures of the federal.

[309] government to live up to its own promises that it made around 2008 to develop a strong national response.

[310] That involved creating a high -level position at the Department of Justice.

[311] It required analyzing the issue every few years and creating national strategy reports, and it required creating a funding mechanism for state and local individual.

[312] Investigators dedicated to doing these investigations called Internet Crimes Against Children Task Forces.

[313] There's at least one in every state.

[314] And what we found was that the government had not really followed through on its grand plans.

[315] You know, these reports have risen, arrests have gone up slightly over the years, but federal funding to these special task forces has largely remained flat.

[316] The high -level position at DOJ was never fully created.

[317] The strategy reports that were supposed to come out on a regular basis, there's only been two of them over the last decade.

[318] So we found failures not just with the tech companies, but also with the government to solve a problem that it's known about for over 10 years.

[319] And as a response to our reporting, Senator Ron Wyden introduced a bill that was supposed to create nearly 200 positions at federal law enforcement, allotting a total of $5 billion over 10 years to address exactly this problem.

[320] And as far as I know, that bill's gone nowhere.

[321] So our elected officials in Washington aren't living up to their promises.

[322] And people like Ashley and the rest of us are here scratching our heads at offenders like Jason thinking, you'll be out in months.

[323] Is that really okay?

[324] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[325] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[326] We cloned his voice using AI.

[327] In 2001, police say I killed my family.

[328] First mom, then the kids.

[329] And rigged my house to explode.

[330] In a quiet suburb.

[331] This is the Beverly Hills of the valley.

[332] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[333] There was sleet and hill and snow coming down.

[334] They found my wife's SUV.

[335] Right on the reservation boundary.

[336] And my dog flew.

[337] I could think of as you're going to sniper me out of some tree.

[338] But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere for two years.

[339] They won't tell you anything.

[340] I've traveled the nation.

[341] I'm going down in the cave.

[342] Tracking down clues.

[343] They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere.

[344] If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[345] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[346] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[347] Do you recognize my voice?

[348] Join an exploding house.

[349] The hunt.

[350] Family annihilation.

[351] Today.

[352] And a disappearing act.

[353] Listen to missing in Arizona.

[354] every Wednesday on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[355] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[356] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[357] Gosh, the U .S. only of the trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[358] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[359] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast.

[360] platform weekly and every day during the Games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[361] In the summer of 2020, in the small mountain town of Idlewild, California, five women disappeared in the span of just a few months.

[362] Eventually, I found out what happened to the women, all except one, a woman named Lydia Abrams, known as Dia.

[363] Her friends and family ran through endless theories.

[364] Was she hurt hiking?

[365] Did she run away?

[366] Had she been kidnapped?

[367] I'm Lucy Sherrith.

[368] I've been reporting this story for four years and I've uncovered a tangled web of manipulation, estranged families and greed.

[369] Everyone, it seems, has a different version of events.

[370] Hear the story on Where's Dea, my new podcast from Pushkin Industries and IHeart Podcasts.

[371] Listen on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[372] So in Mr. Litton's case, on paper, his crime of conviction carries a penalty of one to 15 years in the Utah State Prison.

[373] Did he get that?

[374] No. And in lieu of that, he was given days in jail and a term of probation.

[375] You probably remember that Jason's plea agreement tied the judge's hands pretty much.

[376] And while John Huber thinks the sentence falls short, he supports plea bargains, especially in cases like these.

[377] I think there's a public view that plea bargain is a bad word, that that's a sham and a shame.

[378] It's just a reality.

[379] But it is also true that in cases of child sexual abuse, that there is a reluctance, to press every case to trial.

[380] Because what is the impact of calling a child witness to the stand to be asked questions in an open courtroom about such intimate victimization?

[381] And what does that cost for a victim and their family?

[382] And at the time of sentencing, Sam argued vigorously for the most jail time possible considering the existing plea deal.

[383] In my opinion, that was one step beyond just the child pornography possession and just one step below an actual hands -on sexual offense with a child.

[384] And so it's obviously very concerning.

[385] It's extremely troubling behavior.

[386] And somebody in this defendant's position also occupies what Utah law calls a position of special trust.

[387] And that's an aggravator under Utah law.

[388] And so I felt that this was a case where the judge should consider imposing a judge.

[389] a very significant amount of jail time.

[390] But he also emphasized the overarching goal of the DA's office isn't just throwing offenders in jail.

[391] The system's interested not just in imprisoning offenders or putting people in custody and locking them away.

[392] Sometimes punishment for punishment's sake is appropriate, but the system generally tries to avoid that in favor of rehabilitating people.

[393] We don't want this to happen again.

[394] So what does it take to do that?

[395] At the end of the day, we're dealing with people's freedom and we're dealing with the trauma that's been inflicted on victims.

[396] And the system can't go back and fix something to happen.

[397] But the system is often limited in what it can do.

[398] The system is designed very much to be limited because we don't want innocent people being convicted.

[399] So the system balances that.

[400] And it's a group of people balancing imperfect questions and imperfect solutions and terrible situations.

[401] But not everyone agree.

[402] that is this hope and a prayer philosophy that he will change his ways in the days of probation and some days in jail that he will not reoffend when he is released back into the community that hope and a prayer is exactly what it ends up being what about the community what about his victims the child victims who were violated by his conduct How much does that cost to put that risk back on a family, that risk back on the community at large?

[403] What is the amount of money that it's worth if he does reoffend?

[404] That in that one to 15 years he could have or should have been in the Utah State Prison, according to the laws of the state of Utah.

[405] He's not.

[406] He's out.

[407] Since Sam Sutton mentioned rehabilitation, I was curious about what kind of court -mandated treatment was required of Jason or someone in Jason's position.

[408] This is important to me because I want to know what information Ashley will have and Avaya will have.

[409] For example, how does one measure rehabilitation?

[410] How can one know if rehabilitation is successful?

[411] I think this is important to know when you need to make decisions to keep your kids and family safe.

[412] His court -appointed attorney refused to speak with us.

[413] In fact, no one in the public defender's office would speak to our production, so we tried another avenue.

[414] So my name is Joel Kittrell, and I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Salt Lake City, Utah.

[415] Joel spent five years in the public defender's office before going into a private criminal defense practice.

[416] He explains what steps and programs returning citizens have to go through in order to enter back into society.

[417] Their therapy would include both individual psychotherapy, group therapy, focusing on victim empathy, and then something that's interesting that a lot of people may not know is generally you've got to be able to pass polygraphs while polygraphs aren't admissible in court as we all know you can't pass a polygraph that you haven't viewed child images or haven't acted on these impulses then you may not finish the therapy classes that are required of you or the treatment that's required of you.

[418] You know, there'll be some type of overview with adult probation and parole and his parole officer that will be making sure that he completes that.

[419] If he, say, just quits going or says, this is not for me, then a warrant would likely issue and you'd probably be sent to prison.

[420] And unfortunately, he would have lots of company.

[421] There will never be a shortage of people looking at child sexual abuse material.

[422] Because in the past 20 years, the problem has evolved to a place that is beyond epidemic.

[423] It's a public health crisis.

[424] We spoke with people who said that as early as 2000, tech companies knew this was a very serious problem and we're doing nothing to solve it.

[425] 2009, when they introduced scanning technology, we knew that it could be effective in helping stem the problem.

[426] Still, tech companies were not using it.

[427] I would say if you talk with most, technology policy people, their answer would be technology companies don't have that much pressure to get rid of harmful content on their platform.

[428] You can't sue them for what someone posts or sends through their platform.

[429] Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act shields technology companies from any liability for content that users post.

[430] So for now, law enforcement has to rely on tips those companies give to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[431] But the tips from known social media sites are only part of the story.

[432] There are plenty of hidden places on the dark web to find CSAM as well.

[433] Teams of detectives and child advocates are dedicated to finding these offenders.

[434] Amazing, wonderful people are cracking the codes of hidden websites on the darknet and shutting them down.

[435] And one of the biggest and most dangerous of those came crashing down in 2019.

[436] On the next episode of Betrial, we'll meet a Utah wife and mother who found out her husband was one of its subscribers.

[437] I just started screaming.

[438] I remember just dropped to my knees and started screaming.

[439] And later on Season 2 of Betrayal, another mom makes a daring escape.

[440] I packed that bag and I just got in the car and I went straight to the airport.

[441] If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at PetrialPod at gmail .com.

[442] That's Betrayal P -O -D at gmail.

[443] To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's Cyber Tip Line.

[444] At 1 -800, The Lost.

[445] If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to Stop It Now .org .org.

[446] In the United Kingdom, go to stopitnow .org .uk.

[447] These organizations can help.

[448] We're grateful for your support.

[449] And one way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.

[450] And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.

[451] Five -star reviews go a long way.

[452] A big thank you to all of our listeners.

[453] Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with IHeart Podcasts.

[454] The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin.

[455] Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman, Associate producer, Kristen Malkyuri.

[456] Our I -Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinecheck.

[457] Special thanks to our talent, Ashton -Litton.

[458] Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalbekio.

[459] A Trails theme composed by Oliver Baines.

[460] Music library provided by Mide Music.

[461] And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[462] I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[463] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[464] We cloned his voice using AI.

[465] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness.

[466] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[467] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[468] As I track down clues.

[469] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[470] Hunting.

[471] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[472] Robert Fisher.

[473] Do you recognize my voice?

[474] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[475] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[476] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[477] Oh, gosh.

[478] The U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[479] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[480] Listen to The Podium on the I -Heart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the game.

[481] to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[482] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[483] I found out what happened to all of them, except one.

[484] A woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[485] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[486] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[487] Hear the story on Where's Dea?

[488] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.