Kumail Nanjiani

[0] Welcome, welcome.

[1] Welcome to armchair expert.

[2] I'm Dan Shepard.

[3] Unfortunately, I'm not with Emmy nominated miniature mouse right now because some unfortunate news brought me to Detroit in a hurry where I'm at.

[4] We're separated.

[5] I apologize.

[6] More bad news.

[7] It's also going to affect the fact check.

[8] But we are going to record the fact check for this episode when I return.

[9] And then we will slap it on there.

[10] So if you miss it, as I know I will, you can kind of revisit it and hear what we had to say.

[11] posthumously.

[12] So today we have, we've had a few guests that I have fallen head over heels in love with that I didn't know before interviewing them.

[13] My guest today, Kumal Nanjiani, oh my goodness, what a love connection.

[14] I got to say if we were on that show, we would have gone on a second date.

[15] He is here to talk about many, many things, but among them he has a new movie called Stuber.

[16] It's out July 12th at a theater near you.

[17] Please check that out.

[18] And please enjoy Kumail Nanjiani, you two are going to fall in love with him.

[19] Also, I love you and miss you, miniature Maximus Mouse.

[20] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[21] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[22] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[23] He's an armchair expert.

[24] I wonder, well, Marin, I guess.

[25] We had Marin, and we've also had Hardwick.

[26] But I would imagine other than those two folks, we've not talked to somebody with more podcast time under their belt than you, having had a few podcasts, right?

[27] Yeah, I've had two, two podcasts.

[28] So not a few, a couple, I guess.

[29] Early, though.

[30] I want to commend how early you were into it.

[31] Right when I moved to L .A., I started a podcast.

[32] Of course.

[33] And then I started an X -Files podcast called X -Files Files, a couple years, a few years later.

[34] before the new season started.

[35] Right, right.

[36] And so I've done a lot of podcasts.

[37] Now, when you had done X -Files, files, and then a new season was coming out, did you feel like perhaps you had been a part of that green -green, green -lid lighting?

[38] I can't say that, but other people were saying it, and I can't stop them from saying it.

[39] I actually, because of my podcast, some of those writers would listen to it.

[40] Sure.

[41] I got in touch with them and they would come on the show before the show, the new season was even approved or whatever, picked up.

[42] And then I'm in an episode of the new season.

[43] Oh, you are?

[44] Oh, so you willed this whole thing.

[45] Yeah.

[46] I have to assume you were very sincere and genuine in your love for X -Files.

[47] Yeah, it's my favorite show.

[48] Right.

[49] So wasn't that wonderful to get to, like, get the writers and then be on it?

[50] Oh, yeah.

[51] You know, I talk to people who are like, when they really live.

[52] love something, they like revere it and they don't want to be part of it, I'm not like that.

[53] Oh, right.

[54] If I really love it, I want to be in it.

[55] Oh, if I could time travel, well, there's a list of things.

[56] First thing is I have sex with Monica's grandma.

[57] Yeah.

[58] That's number one.

[59] She's hottest woman I've ever seen in my life.

[60] When did you see her?

[61] Why do you need a time travel machine to have sex with her?

[62] I think more I'm worried about her safety at her age.

[63] Right.

[64] Well, you could.

[65] You think I could be gentle.

[66] You could be checking in.

[67] That's true.

[68] That's a good point.

[69] Oh, you have different speeds, don't you?

[70] No, I wish I did.

[71] I'm a sprinter, not a marathon runner.

[72] Maximum.

[73] Maximum effort.

[74] Yeah, when you pull down my pants, there's a pitcher of a rabbit, not a turtle.

[75] There's no dial to turn it to turtle.

[76] It doesn't last very long, but it is very intense for everyone involved.

[77] Yeah, you won't enjoy it, but the good news is it'll be over very quickly.

[78] Very quickly.

[79] It's like getting a shot, you know.

[80] Okay, so I'm going to take a time machine.

[81] There's a picture.

[82] On her wedding day.

[83] Yeah, it turns out that it's just lore.

[84] It's not really from her wedding day.

[85] Oh, it's not.

[86] Keep saying.

[87] That's beautiful.

[88] She does beautiful, yeah.

[89] There's no arguing.

[90] We actually, Monica's like thought I was getting carried away.

[91] But then we posted a picture of her.

[92] And resoundingly, everyone was like, oh, yeah, most beautiful woman ever lived.

[93] It was conclusive.

[94] I want to see this.

[95] I'll show you.

[96] Okay.

[97] So right after I finished that, I scoot over to Oregon in 1980 and I have sex with Ma, and not Sheila.

[98] Okay.

[99] She's next.

[100] I get it.

[101] Again, she's still around.

[102] She is.

[103] And I haven't ruled that out.

[104] Again, I'm married.

[105] But in the time travel, I won't be somehow.

[106] Right.

[107] No, you won't be.

[108] Because I won't even be born yet.

[109] Right.

[110] Let me see.

[111] Oh, my God.

[112] Yeah, she is beautiful.

[113] Camille, zoom in on that shit.

[114] I mean, she is.

[115] Did you just zoom in on that shit about her?

[116] No, the photo is the shit.

[117] She gets a lot of, you know, disrespect here.

[118] No. She has adoration and love.

[119] She has very.

[120] like her eyes are very I don't know the word intoxicating well I wasn't going to say mysterious well these are all editorializing I was trying to find a more neutral word while still being positive I didn't want to write they're being very diligent about picking the right adjective I was about to say I can't wait I can't wait for it I was about to say, isn't it the pressures more than ever, you got to get that adjective just bullseye.

[121] You got to get it perfect.

[122] I'll say the first word that came to my head.

[123] It's going to sound negative, but it is not negative.

[124] Okay, let's hear.

[125] The first, and it's not used, it's just the first word that was heavy.

[126] And I don't mean heavy in a bad way.

[127] Heavy eyes.

[128] I just meant heavy, like they're full of stuff.

[129] They're deep.

[130] Yeah.

[131] They're deep.

[132] Yes, I agree.

[133] There's like a stuff going on in her eyes.

[134] That's very...

[135] Weighty.

[136] It's interesting.

[137] Yeah, it seems very interesting like intrigued she is very i like that i agree anyway so that's then stop number two all right and then number is mah not shila and there's are both sort of like brown women sure both are indian maha nonchila was from india yeah she's certainly yeah because the baguan was there in india sure so that's a little bit of a pattern is emerged but the third stop is if i could have thought of that third third stop would be to be in smoking the bandit Oh, smoking the band.

[138] Yes, like, to your point, if you, I revere that movie, but I'd be in it in two seconds.

[139] If I had a time machine, I would chase him in a cop car, be a buffoon or whatever, whatever's necessary.

[140] But I want to be in the things.

[141] I don't want to be the guy who just walks across screen.

[142] I want to, like, do something.

[143] You want to make a little mark in that scene.

[144] I don't want it to be like, oh, he won a contest.

[145] I want you to be like, oh, he actually contributed to the thing.

[146] Right.

[147] Now, with that said, you know this long list of people that have been stormtroopers and Starry.

[148] wars like a prince henry William yeah still can't get her name straight is there a Henry Perry I guess the princes were in or stormtroopers you know with the helmets on right it's an esteemed group of folks who have been stormtroopers would you do that well okay so I was in London last year and I'm friends with JJ Abrams and he emailed and he was like are you in town right now for Monday that was like the one week I was away so I wasn't in it I would have done it oh so it oh so it oh happened.

[149] Yeah, and he still is like, I hope that didn't sound like a name drop.

[150] I mean, maybe.

[151] I guess it did a little bit.

[152] No, it was relevant to the story.

[153] Listen, if I have, the best thing I learned about name dropping, Tom Hanks told me, you just can't do it.

[154] You just can't.

[155] Tom Hanks told me, you just can't.

[156] That's not my joke.

[157] Sean Hayes is joke, but I always love it.

[158] Tom Hanks had a joke who told me that joke.

[159] But like, for instance, Game of Thrones a couple weeks ago, Rob McEllen.

[160] and Martin Starr are people who get, like, murdered.

[161] Wait, McElheny got murdered?

[162] Yeah, very quickly.

[163] We missed it.

[164] So he's a good friend of ours.

[165] Yes.

[166] And I knew he had been over there a couple different times to visit sets.

[167] I did not know he was murdered.

[168] Right.

[169] He was murdered.

[170] He gets, like, his eye shot out and there's a still of it.

[171] And then Martin Starr got murdered.

[172] And so I was thinking, would I want to do that?

[173] I love Game of Thrones.

[174] sure but it seems to me like a whole day of makeup and all this shit for like something that anybody could do also if you're playing in the deep bg in the deep background before they get to before they get to your like murder scene you could be there for a week yeah you know totally and they want to get it exact i mean this looked like it was a long couple days now do you think they were frustrated that the one episode they were in it's it's not visible like it's the one before that actually oh it is there were three episodes of It's not the big fight where you can't see a fucking thing.

[175] No. Did you get frustrated at all with the...

[176] I love that episode.

[177] Oh, I loved the episode, but were you frustrated with how dark it was?

[178] I saw it at a movie theater.

[179] Oh, you did?

[180] Okay, so you went to...

[181] JJ Abrams' movie theater.

[182] I saw it at the Chinese.

[183] Oh.

[184] Yeah, they had a screening there for that.

[185] You were invited by Mr. Chinese?

[186] Yeah.

[187] Oh, wow.

[188] What an honor.

[189] Jason Chinese had me over.

[190] Jason Chinese.

[191] you just hinted at this thing that's a pet peeve of mine where people go and I see it on Twitter all the time and on Instagram they go like people are always asking me and generally I just don't think anyone's asking that person no no I think it was really in a time where everyone's sort of dealing with their own shit and then only getting very angry at other stuff yeah I think that's sort of the era we're in yeah yeah the epoch the outrage epoch I think so I mean the fact for me the height was It changed Sonic.

[192] They changed what Sonic looks like.

[193] Oh, they did, in response to some outrage?

[194] Yeah, so they did a trailer for Sonic, which I thought looked great, and Ben Schwartz, who I'm sure you know.

[195] Wait, back up.

[196] I'm thinking of Sonic Hamburgers.

[197] Me too.

[198] I also thought the hamburger.

[199] So there's a movie called Sonic hamburgers?

[200] Sonic.

[201] That sounds like they're biting on Kumar and whatever go to a White Castle.

[202] Now they're trying to go to Sonic.

[203] Dax and Monica go to Burger King for rectangle sandwiches.

[204] Okay, so there's a movie Sonic.

[205] Sonic the Hedgehog.

[206] The Hedgehog.

[207] Do you know who that is?

[208] Just vaguely.

[209] Is it not the same mascot as Sonic hamburgers?

[210] No. They're very different.

[211] So Sonic the Hedgehog is a little blue Hedgehog.

[212] He was like a response to Mario.

[213] So they did a movie and obviously it's a video game.

[214] So there are crazy fans.

[215] Yeah.

[216] The trailer came out and Ben Schwartz.

[217] Do you know Ben Schwartz?

[218] I do.

[219] Yes, of course.

[220] Yeah.

[221] He is the voice.

[222] of Sonic.

[223] And I thought the trailer was great.

[224] The bad guy is Jim Carrey and looks amazing in it, but people didn't like how Sonic looked.

[225] And there was such an outrage that the studio was like, okay, we'll change how he looked.

[226] No. Yeah.

[227] So they've gone back in and reanimated Sonic.

[228] Yeah, they're going to redo the whole thing.

[229] God, what if they put like long surfer hair on him and then Ben will have to go back in and do a whole different character?

[230] He's like, hey guys, bad news.

[231] Sonic is now black, but we don't want to hire a different contractually we can't get rid of you you're gonna have to do it like about the look that it just wasn't representative of the original thing right it just was sort of like halfway between like sonic cartoonic sonic and like too much of a real sonic so wow people thought his teeth looked like human teeth and it was okay people thought it was off -putting like they tried to take sonic which is such a cartoony character and make it look more like an animal that might exist in the real and and so now they're dialing it back to more the cartoon version.

[232] Okay.

[233] They really listened to that fringe.

[234] I hope that's a warning to anyone who would think to bring Pac -Man to the screen.

[235] Yeah, don't change it.

[236] Because it's so simple.

[237] I mean, it's a circle with a pie cut out of it.

[238] That's right.

[239] It's a pie with one slice out.

[240] Okay.

[241] You have a very interesting story, and I'm very excited to talk about it.

[242] You were born in Pakistan, 1978, three years younger than me. I'm frustrated to announce.

[243] And you were born in Karachi, which...

[244] Yeah.

[245] Sorry, go ahead.

[246] No, no, you go ahead.

[247] He doesn't like being older than people.

[248] That's what that was.

[249] I see.

[250] I see.

[251] Do you like being older than people?

[252] You know, this is an interesting question.

[253] I forever, I always wanted to be younger than I was.

[254] Like, when I was in the seventh grade, I'd look at the sixth graders and I was like, oh, they have it so easy.

[255] Like, always.

[256] Uh -huh.

[257] Every kid wanted to be a grown up.

[258] I wanted to stay a kid.

[259] And I felt like for a long time, like, I always felt too old for how old I was.

[260] Yeah.

[261] And so I always, like when I hit 30, that was pretty tough for me. Okay.

[262] And so as I'm 41 now, I just turned 41.

[263] As I was getting closer to 40, I was like, what's this going to happen?

[264] All through my 30s, I was like ashamed of my age.

[265] Yeah.

[266] And then when I hit 40, I was weirdly fine.

[267] Was it that you had expectations of yourself that by 32 you were supposed to be this and by 34 you were supposed to be that?

[268] That's exactly right.

[269] Yeah.

[270] I felt like for my age, I had not accomplished enough.

[271] Yes.

[272] So I have a similar issue and do you like monitor what age everyone else is that's got like something wonderful out in the marketplace and like you know what I'm saying like occasionally I'll watch like even we had we interviewed this wonderful Aaron Lee Carr.

[273] Yeah, documentarian.

[274] Yesterday you've seen her documentaries.

[275] She made the dearest mom.

[276] Mommy dead and dearest.

[277] That's really good.

[278] She made that movie when she was 25 and I got insecure and felt like a failure.

[279] I mean, because I was still unemployed at 25.

[280] I mean, at 25, I was in free fall.

[281] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[282] I, you know, I, when I first moved to New York from Chicago to, like, pursue comedy, I was like, I was going to do this.

[283] My friend Pete Holmes, who's, oh, yes, yes, yeah, very nice guy.

[284] He had moved to New York a couple years ago, and we've been, like, friends forever.

[285] He was, like, my first comedy friend.

[286] He was like, the one thing you cannot do is compare your success to other people's success.

[287] He said, you cannot do that.

[288] I've seen it kill people from the inside.

[289] So I sort of made that decision, do not do it, because you kind of can't control that stuff.

[290] And I've been really, really good about it.

[291] I have never ever really upset about somebody else's success until, weirdly, the last couple of years where I've been doing better than I've ever been doing, I've more successful than I've ever been.

[292] But now I feel like that starts creeping back in sometimes.

[293] Interesting.

[294] Like maybe it woke up just an evaluation side of your brain to begin with.

[295] Like, oh, wow, I'm actually at a rung that I'm happy to be at.

[296] And now I'm thinking about my rung.

[297] Yeah, constantly thinking about my rung.

[298] Could you, could that possibly be it?

[299] I don't know.

[300] I haven't been able to figure it out.

[301] Usually it takes me a couple of years later to be like, oh, that's what that was.

[302] Right, right.

[303] It took me a while to figure out why I thought I was too old.

[304] Yeah.

[305] It took me a while to be like, oh, I felt like I hadn't accomplished enough.

[306] Yeah.

[307] Yeah.

[308] So, and I don't even think I did it in a way that I was jealous or envious or, you know, wanted people's success to go away for them.

[309] It wasn't that as much as you're, I'm like an actuary, like an insurance actuary, right?

[310] So I go, oh, Sam Jackson didn't get famous till 42 or whatever, right?

[311] So then I go like, oh, I guess I still could turn out to be Sam Jackson.

[312] Or people famously, they'll go, oh, Ray Crock didn't invent McDonald's until he was 52.

[313] That's so inspiring for a. long, long time until you turn 53.

[314] Yeah.

[315] And then we're kind of out of people who...

[316] You run out of late bloomers.

[317] Right.

[318] You run out of late bloomer.

[319] I had a thing I remember.

[320] I used to get...

[321] I play video games a lot.

[322] Uh -huh.

[323] And there's an NBA game, NBA 2K, that I've been playing since the first one.

[324] Now they're on 2K -19.

[325] So I've been playing this game for 20 years, right?

[326] Uh -huh.

[327] And in each year, you can, like, create yourself and make yourself a rookie in the league.

[328] And a couple of years ago was the first time it happened where I can, where I couldn't make the character my age anymore.

[329] I had to make him younger.

[330] Like he could not be born in 1978 anymore.

[331] Yes.

[332] And so that was a real like, I was like, oh my God, I'm definitely never going to be in the NBA now.

[333] Oh yeah.

[334] Yeah.

[335] So I always was monitoring my age against NBA players.

[336] I don't know why.

[337] Now the newest transition is I'm the same age as many of the coaches, which is a real drag because there's really nothing beyond that.

[338] It's also some of the coaches look so old.

[339] Well, I think it's a very stressful job to be like biting your nails for two hours.

[340] Well, you look great, though, and you're very successful.

[341] You're doing great.

[342] You've got a hit show on the air.

[343] Sure, sure.

[344] Life is fantastic, but those things tend to not be related.

[345] How you're feeling and what the actual facts are.

[346] I mean, that's definitely been true for me. It's the first time in my career the last year and a half.

[347] I was talking to Emily, my wife about this a couple of days ago.

[348] I was like, you know, for the first time I'm starting to feel like a little bit comparing myself to other people.

[349] And I want to control that.

[350] I don't want to do that because you can control it.

[351] But it still keeps popping up.

[352] Well, you know, my motto is you should never compare yourself to someone else.

[353] You should only be comparing yourself to previous versions of yourself.

[354] Uh -huh.

[355] That's the singular comparison you should be making.

[356] No, Tom Cruise.

[357] Oh, my God.

[358] Yeah, I had to go above Tom Hanks for that too bit.

[359] Oh, so we're saying Cruz is above Hanks?

[360] Like modern day marketplace?

[361] probably a little bit.

[362] I think his, you know, I think the last ghost protocol or whatever ghost.

[363] Yeah.

[364] I think it did well.

[365] Well, yeah, but Hank's, man. Hank's is hard to beat.

[366] No, Hank's is the number one all time.

[367] National treasure.

[368] The number one overall, I mean, I would say the breadth of stuff he's done for as long as he's done it.

[369] And to truly now name drop, have you met him in real life?

[370] He delivers in real life like no one else.

[371] I have met him in real life.

[372] And met him a couple times.

[373] He was very, very nice.

[374] Emily and I were backstage at this thing, like a conference or something, and Tom Hanks walked in.

[375] And there were like other famous people in the room, but everybody's like, oh, my fucking God, Tom Hanks.

[376] Yes, yes.

[377] And so we met him there.

[378] And then later ran into him at another place and he was like talking to us, which is very exciting.

[379] Yes.

[380] And I asked him something.

[381] I was like, I don't have my, I haven't figured out my picture face yet.

[382] Oh, yeah, me too.

[383] On the red carpet, I don't know what face to make.

[384] to do.

[385] Totally agree.

[386] So I asked right after the red carpet, he was there, I asked him, I was like, Tom, Tom.

[387] Yeah, Thomas.

[388] Because the weird thing is, if you meet him, he's really very normal.

[389] Yes, shockingly so.

[390] He likes to be funny and goofy and do bits and stuff.

[391] Yeah.

[392] What do you do on the red carpet?

[393] And he gave me advice that I have been following since.

[394] Oh, I need it so bad.

[395] What is it?

[396] He says what he does is it's very specific, hand in one pocket, the other foot out, and then just a new neutral expression.

[397] Neutral.

[398] That's what he goes.

[399] But neutral is hard to do in those moments.

[400] It can look like you're dead.

[401] You need like something to be thinking about so that your face.

[402] What's as clever strategy?

[403] I never even considered that.

[404] Like I should imagine like jumping a dirt bike.

[405] I have not thought of that either.

[406] I've recently started experimenting with really smiling on the red carpet.

[407] I've done that a bunch too.

[408] Not well I would just like do nothing.

[409] With teeth.

[410] Yeah.

[411] Like really.

[412] Going for it.

[413] Yeah.

[414] So I do too, because here's my thing.

[415] I don't love how I look.

[416] Most people don't love how they look, I suppose.

[417] But I have decided I look best when I'm mid -laugh.

[418] I think a lot of people do because it's real joy.

[419] Yeah.

[420] So I've tried to actually channel a mid -laugh expression, and that's very high risk.

[421] I'll take pictures with, you know, on the red carpet with Emily, and that's her strategy.

[422] So I'll just hear the entire, I'll hear her going.

[423] Oh, that's so cute.

[424] That's great.

[425] To your point, I'm always really jealous because I've had the great privilege of having posed in photographs with boxers before.

[426] And they always go like this.

[427] They either go like this, I'm holding my fists up.

[428] Or they put a fist out.

[429] Yeah.

[430] Well, what would we have?

[431] Well, I guess my mid laugh is kind of most accurate, right?

[432] Right.

[433] Or, yeah, what is the person telling the joke?

[434] What does that look like physically?

[435] Just mouth open.

[436] meaning maybe.

[437] You could be holding a microphone in front of you.

[438] A workspace microphone.

[439] That's what you're doing.

[440] I should 100 % start doing it.

[441] You're going to bring the cans with you on the red carpet.

[442] I would feel so much more comfortable.

[443] Than just that.

[444] Because then I would think the viewer's eye would be drawn to the cans.

[445] They wouldn't be evaluating whether my nose is symmetrical or my chin is weak.

[446] Is he doing this?

[447] He has a sensitivity to extraneous noises, I guess.

[448] Okay.

[449] Can I real quick offer up a potential reason why you're feeling comparison?

[450] Yes.

[451] Because now that your career is expanding and you are really successful, there's so many people around you that have an expectation and who are also bringing in voices of, well, you probably need to do this now or you need to.

[452] So it's not really you've changed.

[453] It's that there's all these people around you that are added into the mix that have a lot of expectations.

[454] The career's gotten more self -conscious?

[455] Yeah.

[456] I do want to change.

[457] I have changed for sure.

[458] I've really wanted to change for so long and I can finally do it.

[459] That might be it, that people have more expectations.

[460] Well, now there's this pressure for you to manage an opportunity correctly.

[461] Correct.

[462] I am very, very aware of the fact that I have a little window right now where I have these opportunities, right?

[463] And I'm very aware of the fact that it can close very quickly.

[464] It closes for most people.

[465] Most people have like a year or a year and a half where they're in a position.

[466] And then it generally goes away.

[467] So I'm very, very aware of that.

[468] And that is a lot of pressure on trying to decide what to do, what to pick and all that stuff.

[469] So I mean, you know, I want to be zen about it and say I can't really control the window.

[470] But it's, I mean, you can a little bit.

[471] I was lucky in that my first lead role was a movie that Emily and I wrote together.

[472] that was really our story and it was well received enough that the next thing that came up I had to be really, really thoughtful about because I was like, it's going to get compared to this thing.

[473] Yes, in the movie you and Emily did The Big Sick, that was a zero risk proposition because you were telling your story and you can't lose telling your story.

[474] It's not like there was some kind of huge economical expectation of you telling your story.

[475] No, it's a very low budget movie.

[476] I mean, the pressure that was there was pressure that we put on ourselves where we were like we want this to be really good because we're never going to be able to tell this story again and if we don't do a good job telling the story nobody's going to tell this story the story just won't get told well so the pressure we had was pressure we put on ourselves but you're right there was no pressure from the industry or really the producers or anything it was a very low budget movie yeah it exceeded I would imagine all expectations yeah outside of the Judd Apatow of it all right he was a producer right I guess that builds in some expectation.

[477] Yeah, but it was Judd's, you know, it's by far the lowest budget movie he's ever done.

[478] And because of him, he protected us so much, too.

[479] Yeah.

[480] You know, the only notes we got were from Judd, like the studio would never interfere.

[481] Is the, is the budget public knowledge?

[482] Five million.

[483] Five million.

[484] Yeah.

[485] Yeah, that's, uh, you have to be nimble and efficient and strategic when.

[486] But then I've been in movies that have much.

[487] bigger budgets than that and it seems just as tricky yes yes it has different things yeah okay so i want to hear from your perspective because i have a very i have to imagine ill -informed wrong idea of what it would be like to grow up in pakistan my only experience with pakistan as i was in afghanistan at a base staring at the border in a mountain that's it that's kind of what growing up in pakistan Oh, great.

[488] Then let's go to the next question.

[489] No, you know, I mean, it's hard to know because that's what my world was.

[490] So it's hard to be like, oh, it's different because of this.

[491] It's just what my life was.

[492] Well, like, here's something that was really shocking to me that you went to a Catholic school.

[493] Right out of the gates, I'm like, that's not my guess, is that you go to a place called St. Michael's.

[494] St. Michael's, Convent School.

[495] I mean, there were a lot of those schools there because, you know, I think, you know, the British were sort of controlling us until 1947.

[496] So there were a lot of those schools.

[497] they did not teach Christianity at all.

[498] They were just, the public schooling system in Pakistan is tough.

[499] Okay.

[500] And so a lot of private schools are run by convents and stuff, by nuns and that kind of thing.

[501] Now, it's tough in what respects.

[502] I did see a front line about the curriculum at public schools, and it was showing, of course, some disturbing things about...

[503] They're just not well -funded.

[504] They're not well -funded, right?

[505] No. So I think that's the biggest problem that Pakistan has is education.

[506] Mom and dad are Muslim, right?

[507] Yeah.

[508] Was there any kind of like, it wasn't weird to be Muslim and send your kids to a Catholic school?

[509] Not at all.

[510] I mean, there were so many.

[511] There was St. Patrick, St. Paul, St. Michael's.

[512] They were St. Joseph.

[513] I mean, there were so many of these schools, and they were, like, sort of the good schools.

[514] And was there, like, an expat contingency within there?

[515] Or was there, like, foreign kids there?

[516] Not really.

[517] Not really.

[518] They had an American school in Karachi, which, which was sort of the expats school.

[519] So those were all like the rich kids who had diplomatic immunity and stuff like that.

[520] Right.

[521] They threw great parties and stuff.

[522] Yeah, I did not get invested in.

[523] I've heard about them.

[524] What did mom and dad do there?

[525] Because it's the industrial center of Pakistan.

[526] Yeah, it's the most affluent city in Pakistan.

[527] Yeah, it's over 20 million people.

[528] It's huge.

[529] Yeah, it's six largest in the world.

[530] Is that right?

[531] Yeah.

[532] It's twice the size of New York.

[533] I mean, it's...

[534] And it's nothing to shake your finger out.

[535] That's a serious population.

[536] Yeah, that's like a Mexico City level.

[537] I think there are 25 million.

[538] Really?

[539] Yeah.

[540] So my dad's a doctor.

[541] He is.

[542] Psychiatrist here now.

[543] Oh, he is?

[544] Mm -hmm.

[545] Interesting.

[546] Because your wife is a therapist.

[547] Let's not delve into that too much.

[548] No, I'm, we're going to.

[549] This whole podcast is just therapy.

[550] But yeah, I'm excited to know what it's like to be married to a therapist.

[551] Well, particularly a relationship.

[552] family therapist.

[553] So it's like she probably has a good sense of what a healthy relationship ought to look like.

[554] Sure.

[555] And that's a little bit of pressure when you meet someone, I would imagine.

[556] It's been great for me because I know her more than I know anybody else in the world and she knows me more than she knows anyone else in the world.

[557] I can't lie to her.

[558] You know, we just know each other really well.

[559] And she's honestly really helped me, even though it's not her job too.

[560] She's really helped me deal with a lot of stuff that I didn't know that I was dealing with.

[561] Sure.

[562] I didn't, for the longest time, my story about myself was like, I'm really laid back and chill and she was like, you are an incredibly anxious person.

[563] And I was like, no, I'm not, I'm chill, I'm cool.

[564] Where should we eat?

[565] Well, we shouldn't eat there because that one time, I don't know if you do this, you know, let's order it.

[566] I don't know, let's go out.

[567] She for years have been like, you have this story about yourself that you're like this laid -back person you're not you're you're very anxious yeah and just me understanding that although it sounds like she's kind of gaslighting me but it wasn't that i i have a similar thing when i was newly dating christian i'm out in the world and i'm presenting myself as a very laid -back chill guy as well and then i had a black countertop and she was like talking and putting her hands on the countertop and then she turned to go do something else and when she wasn't looking, I wiped the fingerprints off of the black countertop.

[568] And in that moment, I was like, oh, I'm a false advertiser.

[569] Like, I want this house fucking clean as hell.

[570] But I think that's okay.

[571] I think you can have a persona that you projected the world.

[572] As long as you know what you really are.

[573] And for me to sort of figure out the things that I had to deal with took so long.

[574] Stay tuned for more armchair experts.

[575] If you dare.

[576] We've all been there.

[577] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[578] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[579] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremating.

[580] or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[581] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[582] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[583] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[584] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[585] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[586] What's up guys?

[587] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, It's too good.

[588] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[589] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[590] And I don't mean just friends.

[591] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[592] The list goes on.

[593] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[594] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[595] Yes, so the story you're telling yourself, I think of it as your identity, basically.

[596] Like, this is my identity.

[597] This is who I am, right?

[598] I was listening to your podcast with Rob.

[599] McElhaney.

[600] Yeah.

[601] And you guys were talking about where like you guys, you like justice.

[602] You want to like go and I am like the opposite.

[603] I have that thing again, being an anxious, I think high stress person sort of is my baseline.

[604] If I'm driving and someone cuts me off, that can get me really angry, right?

[605] Sure.

[606] And I have to choose to be like, you know what?

[607] I'm not going to let that person ruin my day.

[608] I'm not always successful and I don't always even try to do it.

[609] but it has really helped me personally to be like, you know what?

[610] Someone threw a milkshake on my car or whatever that incident was.

[611] I'm like, I'm just going to let it go.

[612] I'm just going to choose to...

[613] So this happened to me like three weeks ago.

[614] I'm driving.

[615] My gym is in Beverly Hills, so I have to do a long drive.

[616] I'm coming back.

[617] There's a four -way intersection.

[618] I'm going and this woman, this older white lady, just blows through the sobsend and almost hits me. And I like honk really hard.

[619] And she flips me up and she says, go back to your country.

[620] Oh.

[621] This happened in Beverly Hills.

[622] Okay.

[623] Three weeks ago.

[624] It just happened, right?

[625] Yeah.

[626] And then I got really, really angry.

[627] Of course.

[628] Yeah, yeah.

[629] And I was like, what?

[630] First of all, I was like, what?

[631] Like, I couldn't.

[632] And she was like, yeah.

[633] She, like, doubled down.

[634] Uh -huh.

[635] And so then I tried to pull out my phone to take a picture of a license plate, but she was gone, whatever.

[636] I was like, I could turn around and try and get this car, but that'll be dangerous.

[637] And I have to choose to not let this affect me. Now, it did affect me, but I had to decide to be like, you know what, you just have to let that go.

[638] It's like the cortisol dump, like what it does to your body to have adrenaline and cortisol in that state of mind where you're agitated and angry and aggressive for, because when I'm in those situations and I'm, fuck you, motherfucker, stay in my country, but fuck you.

[639] You're a dick.

[640] I'm aware of your race.

[641] I don't think it has anything to do with this situation.

[642] Um, for me, the next 30 minutes, I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm coming back from that experience.

[643] And I just think it's really costly.

[644] So even if the person's like, you win, you're tougher than me and I'm scared to you and I learned a lesson and I'll never make this infraction again.

[645] I'm, I'm going to, for a half hour, I'm fucked up over it.

[646] And I was just like, oh, I'm losing every one of these things I win.

[647] Yeah, I think that's right.

[648] I think anger begets anger, you know, I think, uh, I, you know, there is like a way of like blowing.

[649] off steam, that's okay.

[650] But I think the more angry you get, the more angry you get.

[651] And I learned that from sort of playing video games online, which I had to stop doing, because I would find myself getting angry.

[652] And it was not an outlet.

[653] It was a kind of angry that was leading to more anger.

[654] Right.

[655] Over and over and over.

[656] And so I had to stop doing that.

[657] And you just sort of see it online, too.

[658] It gains momentum somehow.

[659] I think there's a good way of blowing off steam, like I said.

[660] but that kind of exorcism is, it's tricky.

[661] Well, for me, I've got to learn the tricks to prevent it from happening.

[662] So I start monitoring someone driving.

[663] Like, I'm the police, basically.

[664] Oh, this guy switched lanes twice, didn't use a blinker.

[665] He's an asshole.

[666] Now I need to start monitoring him, right?

[667] And now I have to go, right now, look at someone else's car, read their license plate, make up some kind of acronym.

[668] I get real busy on shifting my focus.

[669] That's smart.

[670] Yeah.

[671] And it's, again, it's hard for me to surrender to doing that.

[672] But when I do it, I'm so much happier.

[673] Yeah, I feel the same exact thing.

[674] Just have to let it go.

[675] I just have to.

[676] I am not looking for justice.

[677] I'm looking to just be calm and happy.

[678] Yeah.

[679] Well, the other thought I had was I was getting irate about the traffic.

[680] And I just had this thought where I was like, hmm, who's going to change?

[681] Dax or the traffic?

[682] The traffic's been this way for 60 years.

[683] It's likely to be this way for a number.

[684] another hundred long after I'm gone, which one of us is going to change?

[685] Because one of the variables is a constant.

[686] It's just not moving.

[687] Right.

[688] That's exactly right.

[689] Yeah.

[690] You know, you just have to, because anger is irrational, but you have to try and think about those things to try and de -escalate yourself.

[691] I had an issue with anger for many, many years.

[692] Since I was a little kid, eight -year -old, nine -year -old, 10 -year -old.

[693] Like, I was angry forever.

[694] Do you have a theory on why?

[695] Just biochemical?

[696] or do you think you were frustrated with some situation?

[697] I don't know why I was angry then, but I do know why I was angry in my 20s and 30s.

[698] Okay.

[699] And I think I was angry in my 20s and 30s because I genuinely wasn't really in touch with my own feelings and emotions.

[700] And Emily was the one who taught me. She's like, you know, there's four basic emotions.

[701] There's anger, sadness, happiness, and fear.

[702] And everything is a combination of those.

[703] All of those, sadness, happiness and fear can all be turned into anger.

[704] So you see, like, obviously sadness can turn into anger.

[705] Like, I remember there was a guy who went and killed a couple, like, Indian people in a bar two years ago.

[706] And they found out that his dad had died nine months earlier.

[707] And he just was, like, really upset about it.

[708] Even, like, joy, like, you watch, like, sports fans getting like, yeah, and then they get really angry.

[709] Oh, that's a great example.

[710] Anything obviously fear can be turned into anger.

[711] We're seeing that all across our great nation right now.

[712] Yeah.

[713] And so, for me, I was getting angry because I was feeling.

[714] all these things, not processing them, not being in touch with them.

[715] And it was all coming out as anger eventually in like birth.

[716] Yeah.

[717] And do you think it's because you just felt more comfortable with that emotion?

[718] So the other ones made you feel a little unmoored for some reason.

[719] Yeah, I think, you know, I think anger is a manly emotion, right?

[720] I think for most men, that's the one they feel comfortable expressing.

[721] Men can't be sad.

[722] Men can't be afraid.

[723] And men can't even be happy.

[724] No, you're gay if you're happy.

[725] Yes, that's true.

[726] No, I know.

[727] It's preposterous.

[728] I mean, that is what...

[729] Yeah, like, if you see, like, in the 80s, you saw just a photo maybe in Time magazine and like four guys walking down the street smiling ear to ear, you'd be like, oh, this is an issue about gay men.

[730] Yes, that's exactly right.

[731] You really would think that.

[732] Right, I think that's exactly right.

[733] Open -out teeth smile is not working.

[734] Oh, wow, yeah, that's the message.

[735] But I am happy to send that message.

[736] Yeah.

[737] But that's what, so I think, I mean, and I think most of the world's problems.

[738] Well, by the way, the fact that the word gay also means happy, there's something totally intrinsic in there.

[739] I mean, yeah.

[740] It's just a little more, you know, I think if you're, if you have to like, if you're gay, you came out at some point, you had to do some introspection to be like, oh, I am different from some of the people around me, you know.

[741] Yes.

[742] So I think that's what my anger was, because I wasn't feeling all these things.

[743] And I think most of the world's problems are because of men who.

[744] can't feel their feelings that are just comfortable being angry.

[745] A significant percentage of them.

[746] I would say almost it's so many problems come from that.

[747] Yeah.

[748] So I really think that that's sort of, you know, we're obviously in a era where we're talking about what masculinity is and this stuff.

[749] And I think, I hope we start redefining it as people who are in touch with their feelings and can feel all these things.

[750] Yeah.

[751] I cry at almost every movie now.

[752] I'm so jealous.

[753] And that only happens, started happening like, three years ago when I realized like, oh, I have to start knowing how I'm feeling all the time.

[754] Yes, yes.

[755] And then also the other thing, right, being okay with just having a feeling and going, oh, it's temporary.

[756] You don't have to quickly try to change the feeling.

[757] Just accept it for a minute and then it'll be gone.

[758] And sit in there.

[759] Yes.

[760] I feel it.

[761] Yeah.

[762] You hear that all the time, but you've got to really think about it.

[763] Because our nature is just, my nature is just to be like, I'm uncomfortable, and I want a solution to this immediately.

[764] Yeah, that's exactly right.

[765] Yeah.

[766] And then you just kind of kick it down the road, I think.

[767] I think also because, at least for me, my religion, basically it was the soul is good and the body is bad.

[768] That's how Islam was taught to me at least.

[769] Okay.

[770] So the body is the vessel of all temptation and stuff?

[771] Yes.

[772] Okay.

[773] So everything the body likes is bad, you know.

[774] Yeah.

[775] Boo booze, drugs.

[776] all that stuff and the soul is basically the intellect i was very very religious as a kid and so i think for me it might have been trying to deny all these feelings and emotions that i thought were weak so this is my issue with all religions across the board i feel like the fuel in the engine of religion so often is just shame yeah i mean you know i it was very very guilt -based at least the way i was raised with Islam.

[777] And to this day, that is still the math in my head of how I approach every single aspect of my life.

[778] Like, my neurons got formed with the math of if you do good, you deserve good.

[779] If you don't, you should feel horrible about yourself.

[780] Yes.

[781] And so that's still my motivation.

[782] And then even pulling back up above that, it becomes obvious, well, that is a common denominator of nearly all the religions.

[783] So what you must quickly recognize is that we as a animal, through our evolution are super prone to this shame guilt.

[784] Like it's in us some, it obviously served us well.

[785] My theory is we lived in groups with no police.

[786] So shame was a great tool to keep people's behavior in line.

[787] So it's just, it's in our genetics to be prone to shame.

[788] Right.

[789] And so I'm sort of aware of it and to use it in a positive way, at least.

[790] I set up all these rules for myself, from my life many, many years ago.

[791] And I'm usually re -evaluating them, but I realize that to use the, I guess, the flaws in my thinking in a positive way required sort of constant care.

[792] Uh -huh.

[793] Yeah, but just an eight -year -old shouldn't feel guilty that they want to eat chocolate and a 13 -year -old shouldn't feel guilty.

[794] They're horny.

[795] Like, these are.

[796] Oh, dude, when I was horny.

[797] Oh, you must have.

[798] When I would, like, when I would masturbate, I would feel awful about myself.

[799] It was so, so, so bad.

[800] Yes.

[801] I felt such awful shame.

[802] I remember showering and being like, oh, my God, God hates me. Yes.

[803] Now, I'm not even religious.

[804] I wasn't brought up religious.

[805] And I was mortified with my behavior when I was masturbating.

[806] Tried to quit all the time.

[807] Oh, all the time.

[808] Each time was the last time.

[809] Yes, each time was the last time.

[810] And then I had these crazy rules where I was like, I guess it's fine to just masturbate and not have an orgasm.

[811] So then I would try to do that and I maybe succeed once or twice.

[812] And then now I'm just uncomfortable.

[813] Oh, my God.

[814] I went that far.

[815] I made this rule where it was like, if I found a porn, they had to be kissing during it.

[816] And then I could be like, oh, I think they're in love.

[817] It's okay.

[818] The bargaining we do.

[819] What a great rule.

[820] It had to be romantic.

[821] Well, somewhat.

[822] Like, they had to kiss at some point.

[823] Sometimes they don't kiss at all.

[824] Would you ever just stumble across one and be like, oh, God, please let them kiss because they're so attractive.

[825] I would just like scan right through.

[826] Okay, yeah, that was a little peck right there, okay.

[827] Now I'm going to go back to the insertion, the non -romantic part.

[828] So when you were in Karachi, did you have dreams of coming here always?

[829] Never.

[830] Did that seem impossible?

[831] Did it seem like you had an uncle that went to England, a generation before you, right?

[832] Yeah, I think that was always the plan was to come to America if possible.

[833] And that's why.

[834] they sent us to.

[835] So we have these schools, those schools were called English medium schools, which means most of the teaching is done in English.

[836] So even if you're learning chemistry, it's in English.

[837] Whereas the public schools, if you learn chemistry, it's in Urdu.

[838] So my parents always wanted me to come to the U .S. or go to the UK.

[839] Oh, okay.

[840] So that was always...

[841] It was sort of always the plan, but it's so hard to move here.

[842] I would imagine, especially from Pakistan.

[843] It's so hard.

[844] Yeah.

[845] You've got to really be the best of the best probably to get in.

[846] Well, that's the thing.

[847] There's the sense that people think like, oh, immigrants say, you know, their gates are open.

[848] It's so, so hard to move to America.

[849] Yeah.

[850] It didn't really feel obtainable.

[851] I mean, it really felt like it was never going to happen.

[852] Oh, I want to back up.

[853] So dad's a psychiatrist.

[854] Yeah.

[855] And he was in Pakistan.

[856] He went back and became a psychiatrist much later because psychiatry wasn't really huge in Pakistan.

[857] Well, that was going to be my question.

[858] Yeah.

[859] And then my dad became one of the first, like, big psychiatrists in Karachi as it was coming up and becoming a field.

[860] So he would speak at conferences and stuff and he'd have articles written about him as this new branch of medicine that was becoming more popular there because obviously there's a stigma here, but the stigma there was very, very intense.

[861] I assume it still is.

[862] Yeah.

[863] And then, you know, to move to America, he had to start over.

[864] So he was like in his 50s and super established and then he had to basically did like his residency against.

[865] Here's the thing.

[866] Again, I don't want to represent Pakistan in a way that's negative, but it's, you know, it's very corrupt.

[867] And there's a lot of violence.

[868] For me growing up, I loved it and I still love it, but people do get murdered all the time.

[869] Yeah, did you, do you feel like you had just a general insecurity about your safety as a kid?

[870] Yeah, but that was just what life was.

[871] Sure.

[872] You just knew, like, you know, after a certain hour, you don't go to these places.

[873] And, like, we would skip school a lot because there was, like, we called it Hungama.

[874] It just means, like, general unrest is happening right now.

[875] Okay.

[876] And so she has any violence, which are the two main sects of Islam, was very, very prevalent.

[877] Yeah.

[878] So they wanted to always get out because life was hard there for us.

[879] It's so interesting probably to grow up where there isn't a generation that wasn't mired in war.

[880] It's not even really a potential existence.

[881] It's like your great -grandfather did, your grandfather, your dad, you know, you're in the middle of it.

[882] So it's like, in anthropology, we call it naive realism, where it's like you have a hard time imagining the mindset of someone else because of where you're from, basically.

[883] And so we go like, well, don't you desire peace?

[884] Yeah.

[885] But if that's not even a concept, really, how could you desire it?

[886] Yeah.

[887] I mean, I think, I've read some books about it and stuff.

[888] And I don't know if this is accurate.

[889] This is my sense of it.

[890] Again, I don't want people to get upset at me about this.

[891] But 1947 is when, you know, the British left and Pakistan and India became different countries.

[892] Yeah.

[893] And from what I understand, the inception of Pakistan was very, very optimistic.

[894] There was a real feeling of hope there.

[895] You know, they were like, we're going to make a country on our own.

[896] It's sort of the first country that was formed on a religious basis.

[897] So it was like a country for Islam.

[898] Because, you know, it had been hard living under the British.

[899] And with this, it was like, we're going to make our own country.

[900] And then there was a tremendous sense of optimism.

[901] And then over the next few decades, things just got harder and harder and harder.

[902] And Pakistan's had a difficult history.

[903] And so I think for my grandfathers, I think for that generation, that was a big heartbreak was...

[904] Yeah, the promise not realized.

[905] The promise not realized and actually go really, really...

[906] I mean, you know, Pakistan's a very poor country, and then the disparity of wealth is really huge, too, and it's really corrupt.

[907] You know, we're never on the top 10 most corrupt states list because we're so corrupt we can bribe our way out of being.

[908] Right, right.

[909] I mean, you know, cops can stop.

[910] You have to give them money.

[911] Otherwise, they could just, like, people get disappeared in prison.

[912] I mean, this stuff happens.

[913] Sure.

[914] In general, do you not like talking about Pakistan?

[915] Well, just to be honest, it's that I have a complicated relationship with it because I love so much about it.

[916] But I also see the stuff about it that's difficult.

[917] Mm -hmm.

[918] And as someone who's Pakistani, and there aren't that many Pakistani people with a microphone in front of their face.

[919] And so I do feel a responsibility to portray Pakistan in just to completely.

[920] positive light.

[921] By the way, I have this with Michigan on a way tinier note.

[922] I really do.

[923] Like, I'm always on like, I love where I'm from.

[924] I love Michigan.

[925] I also am glad to be away from where if you look at a guy in Denny's and he doesn't look away, you guys walk outside and fine.

[926] Like it's right.

[927] So, you know, I think it's complicated to love where you're from and also like recognize once you've left that, oh, this part of California I kind of dig or this part of.

[928] Yeah.

[929] I mean, I mean, the other thing I find, again, I'm generalizing, right, is I've talked to a lot of people who are second generation Pakistani, who's sort of born here and grown up here.

[930] And by and large, their relationship to Pakistan is so different because they, their relationship to Pakistan is, because they've gotten to curate what they consider part of the Pakistani identity, you know, so they can be like, we love the food, we love the clothes, we love the language, we love the religion.

[931] You can take all the stuff that's positive and have that be part of your identity and not to.

[932] take the stuff that's not as positive.

[933] Sure.

[934] So for them being Pakistani is a tremendous sense of pride and it's not really, again, generalizing, not as complicated as it is for someone like me who saw a guy get shot in the head on the street.

[935] Right.

[936] At what age?

[937] I was like 17.

[938] I was in high school.

[939] And my friends and I, after school, we would walk around, just like a lot of great street food.

[940] So we would like walk around and get street food.

[941] And I remember we were just getting street food and it's packed.

[942] You know, I mean, there were like people on the street.

[943] There's a very busy part.

[944] We hear like a loud bang.

[945] And it didn't sound like a gunshot.

[946] It sounded like something.

[947] It just sounded like a really loud sound.

[948] We were like, what?

[949] And then suddenly people part and we see there's a bus and there's a guy in front of it dead with like just blood pouring out of the head, you know?

[950] And then apparently someone got off the bus and someone just came up and shot him and ran away.

[951] Uh -huh.

[952] And then I used to have nightmares for like years where it would always end with that image.

[953] Like, different things would be happening.

[954] Somebody would get hurt.

[955] Yeah.

[956] And then it would end with that guy laying on the ground, blood coming out of his head.

[957] What was your reaction in the moment?

[958] I actually, I was sad.

[959] The first thing I thought was sadness.

[960] The feeling that this guy was alive 30 seconds ago, and then now he certainly wasn't.

[961] I've never seen someone just being fully dead.

[962] Yeah, yeah.

[963] I went to my great grandmother's funeral and obviously, but that's different.

[964] Yeah.

[965] With this, it was like being someone in the middle of the street, young guy, being like, oh, that person is now dead.

[966] Right.

[967] I wasn't scared really.

[968] I didn't feel scared.

[969] I didn't feel excited.

[970] I just felt very sad.

[971] And I'm always, I'm getting like emotional talking about it.

[972] It probably came out as anger a week later.

[973] Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

[974] I mean, do you think the anger has something to do with the way you grew up?

[975] There's always a sense of potential danger.

[976] I mean, that's.

[977] That would make people get angry.

[978] Maybe.

[979] I don't know.

[980] I mean, the other thing was, I was Shia, and that's definitely the minority.

[981] So we were like, don't tell people you're Shia in school.

[982] You know, they called us Kutmal, which means cockroaches.

[983] That's like the term for Shia people.

[984] And that's not positive, right?

[985] That's not a revered insect over there.

[986] No, no, no, no, no. We're not like praying to the cockroach.

[987] And so I don't know.

[988] I mean, it might have just also been frustration at somehow being a kid and not having power.

[989] I don't know what it was.

[990] I just knew that I would have like anger issues and I would get so angry and the type of anger where you really want to hurt someone you love.

[991] Like you want to get really anger and you want to say the thing that you can't take back to your mom or your dad or your brother.

[992] There's a certain euphoria that accompanies that, doesn't, isn't it?

[993] Oh, followed by massive guilt and shame.

[994] Totally.

[995] But the moment I can feel right now even thinking about it, the moment where I'm like, don't say that, I'm going to say it in this wave of fuck it.

[996] I don't give a shit about the consequences.

[997] There is just a brief sliver of like euphoria that adjoins that.

[998] Well, what Emily taught me, so we've been together since 2006, 13 years, you know, a long time.

[999] And I would not proud of it, but I would do that with her.

[1000] I would say to her very hurtful things when I would get really angry.

[1001] You know, we had to learn how to fight in a constructive way.

[1002] And I think we're good at that now.

[1003] But she was the one she was like, you know, when you get angry, you get to the point where you say something you can't take back.

[1004] And then when you say that, then you use that to come back down from your anger and de -escalate yourself.

[1005] And then you spiral from anger straight to guilt and shame.

[1006] And she's like, that's the system that you've devised.

[1007] That's like the fail -safe.

[1008] And she's like, you have to figure out how to not get to that place, how to de -escalate without hitting that, like, switch.

[1009] And I didn't realize that's what I was doing.

[1010] I would always get really angry, get to that switch.

[1011] And then be like, oh, my God, what have I done?

[1012] What have I done?

[1013] I'm so sorry.

[1014] I'm so sorry.

[1015] I'm so sorry.

[1016] Yes, yes.

[1017] We do that to the people we're closest to.

[1018] I mean, it's there.

[1019] It's horrible.

[1020] I equated to, I read this article that kids on the playground, they're super nice all day long.

[1021] They obey the rules.

[1022] They do this and then that.

[1023] And then as soon as they see their mom come in, they lose it.

[1024] They have no control over anything.

[1025] I had that too with my family because I wanted to be white and I wasn't and I blamed them for that subconsciously, I think.

[1026] So then that's where all my anger was directed to.

[1027] And also because they couldn't like leave me. Right.

[1028] So I could do whatever I wanted to them.

[1029] I couldn't do what I wanted to all my friends.

[1030] I'm trying to impress my friends.

[1031] Right.

[1032] They have to love you no matter what.

[1033] Exactly.

[1034] So where did you grow up?

[1035] Georgia.

[1036] That's so interesting.

[1037] Yeah.

[1038] And when did you realize that you wanted to be white and that that was the source of your anger towards?

[1039] Well, I don't think I, like, had the actual realization until I was much older.

[1040] I just knew I wanted to distance myself from that.

[1041] Right.

[1042] From, I mean, five, like four, the earliest I can remember.

[1043] I always wanted to sleep over at my friend's house.

[1044] I never wanted them to come over.

[1045] And my parents are really, like, super.

[1046] I'm in love with her dad.

[1047] And they're not in any culture.

[1048] Exactly.

[1049] Exactly.

[1050] I might grab some beers, by the way, with Ashok, when I have the time machine.

[1051] Because it'll be before I was sober.

[1052] I'll go back to, like, 97 and bang some beers back with the show.

[1053] Yeah.

[1054] Yeah, definitely.

[1055] I love them.

[1056] But yes.

[1057] Later in life, you realize, oh, that's what I was doing.

[1058] I realized, but I was doing it the whole time.

[1059] And I was pretty much aware that, like, I don't want people to come over if there's cooking.

[1060] I don't want, you know, all of this.

[1061] When Harold and Kumar came out, she hated it.

[1062] No, bend it like Beckham.

[1063] Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[1064] The same, similar.

[1065] I was like, oh, I don't like that there's like an Indian girl.

[1066] Now people are going to like somehow know I'm Indian because they definitely haven't noticed so far.

[1067] That's so crazy.

[1068] No, but that makes so much sense to me. Like, so I don't want to get too specific, but I have someone in my family who's, they've married a white person and they have two kids and one of the kids looks fully white and one of the kids looks fully brown.

[1069] And the one who's really white was always very white was always very.

[1070] really into their Pakistaniness and love the food and all that and the one who was fully brown fully rejected it of course wanted to be the opposite of that and now they're you know they're older than being and now the the one who rejected understands what was going on but yeah i thought that was so interesting because for one person it was like the exotic thing and the other one was like yeah and there's two two things are true at the same time so one thing is yes there is um there is some racism happening there is some exclusion happening, right?

[1071] And so that's a fact.

[1072] Sure.

[1073] So your brownness is part of that.

[1074] And yet, what is also true is that all human beings feel excluded and they're all looking for the reason to hang that exclusion on.

[1075] I really feel like, I mean, obviously true for us and we are in the entertainment industry.

[1076] I don't know if every kid felt excluded.

[1077] I think there were some kids who felt like really cool and part of it and fully accepted.

[1078] And maybe that makes them less interesting now.

[1079] But I don't know.

[1080] I just don't know that anyone goes through adolescence without insecurity.

[1081] Still something that's wrong with them.

[1082] I think it's human nature.

[1083] But I don't know.

[1084] I mean, when I went to school, I kind of imagine all these kids have the lack of self -esteem that I do.

[1085] I don't think the world would function.

[1086] I think they do.

[1087] I think that's why sneakers sell and I think that's why we eat the way we do and we like all this soothing of this angst we have because we're just this crazy social animal that is obsessed at all times with where our position in this social hierarchy is it's just hardwired into our brain so even the dude that you and I are looking up to who's number three his a full -time obsession is that he's not number two or one maybe you're right but I you know I just felt like some kids were so confident.

[1088] And now, by the way, because of Silicon Valley, there's, like, young kids who like that show.

[1089] Sure.

[1090] But, like, seventh graders.

[1091] And I'll be walking down the street.

[1092] And seventh graders would be like, hey, Dinesh, selfie.

[1093] They're so confident now.

[1094] Like, don't talk to me like that.

[1095] First of all, it's sir.

[1096] Yeah.

[1097] Secondly, yes, I'd love to be in your selfie.

[1098] So you came at 18 and you went to college in Iowa, which again, there's a little comedic value in the fact that you went all the way from Pakistan and you ended up in Iowa.

[1099] Well, I didn't realize, I've talked about this before, but I didn't realize that America, first of all, your country's way too big.

[1100] It's so big.

[1101] Look at a world map.

[1102] It's the third biggest land mass, I think.

[1103] It's so much.

[1104] And so, you know, I love movie, like Hollywood movies growing up, but you only see L .A. in New York, so I thought that was America.

[1105] So when I landed in Iowa, I truly was like, oh my God.

[1106] This is not America.

[1107] You had to have felt that way.

[1108] And it really was true.

[1109] I really thought it would all be New York or L .A. Yeah.

[1110] And did you have fun there that form?

[1111] I did.

[1112] I feel like that's where I became a person.

[1113] I don't feel like I was a person until then.

[1114] That's when I realized like, you know, oh, I'm funny and people actually like me. Like I really, until then, I thought, oh, nobody wants to hang out.

[1115] out with me. Nobody wants to see me, but people who were actually friends with me, who I'm still in touch with, I was like, oh, they're just hanging out with me for some this reason or this reason or they feel bad for me or whatever it is.

[1116] And it wasn't until college that I was like, oh, I have value people like me. I'm funny.

[1117] I'm smart.

[1118] All that stuff.

[1119] Yeah.

[1120] And so prior to that, you had no comedic aspirations?

[1121] Not at all.

[1122] People now who I grew up with are shocked that I do this because I was so shy.

[1123] Like, I couldn't go to the store and buy something and walk out.

[1124] Like, I was by far the shyest kid.

[1125] I think it was, I thought I was, like, very ugly.

[1126] Like, well, this is my backstory.

[1127] Until I was, like, the age of six, I was the cutest fucking kid in the world.

[1128] I can see it.

[1129] I mean, you see pictures of me. I'm, like, objectively, just like, just a little angel.

[1130] I'm going to burp that baby in my time machine.

[1131] I can tell you right now.

[1132] So cute.

[1133] I mean, people all the time, like, I would go to a shop and people would be like, I'm going to keep you.

[1134] Like, I remember being scared of shops.

[1135] I would always be like, I want to keep you here.

[1136] I remember I once went with my aunt to Thailand, and I going into a store and this woman was like, yeah, I'm not going to let you go back to Pakistan.

[1137] And me being like super terrified.

[1138] Uh -huh.

[1139] And then I turned like seven or eight, and it went south.

[1140] My neck got really long.

[1141] My head got huge.

[1142] my shoulders did not grow I got an Adams apple way too early I got a mustache way too early so I went from being like adorable to like truly truly like a child with Pagiria is that the disease I was like why is this 39 year old seven year old in the shop exactly and they were like we want to keep you but to do our accounting yeah this middle age child it really was weird and then remember I didn't like just go like, oh, now I'm ugly.

[1143] I remember being like, you know what I haven't heard in a couple months?

[1144] People are threatened to kidnap me because of my acuteness.

[1145] And then I looked at the mirror and I was like, oh, no. I'm feeling suspiciously safe right now.

[1146] My nose grew like way faster than anything else.

[1147] Sure, mine too.

[1148] So it was just a nightmare.

[1149] I got like glasses.

[1150] Sure, that helps.

[1151] It just went real south, real quick.

[1152] Stay tuned for more.

[1153] Armchair expert, if you dare.

[1154] And then I sort of, so I sort of felt like that, that I was really ugly until pretty much, until pretty recently.

[1155] Yeah.

[1156] And my problem is that I really like, like, Emily says that she's like, you really love handsome men.

[1157] Me too, obsessed with handsome, more than I am women.

[1158] Yeah.

[1159] Oh, no. I want to befriend handsome men.

[1160] And Anthony's like, you know, Hansen.

[1161] some men really like you.

[1162] And I think it's because like I do like fun friendly flirting.

[1163] Yeah, me too.

[1164] Me too.

[1165] Yeah.

[1166] And I could like if you had to name me like the top 10 best bodies in Hollywood, I could do the male list right away.

[1167] And I could maybe list like three female actors.

[1168] Chris Hamthworth.

[1169] Oh God.

[1170] What a physique.

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] My God.

[1173] Well, the whole Marvel lineup really is just outstanding.

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] Maybe we do that because we subconsciously feel like if they allow us to be near them, then we must be on some level sort of attractive too.

[1176] Like absorbing their status a little bit?

[1177] Yeah, or like, they're so beautiful.

[1178] They wouldn't be hanging out with someone super ugly.

[1179] Right.

[1180] You never see a hedgehog and a cheetah having lunch together.

[1181] Yeah.

[1182] Although I think Sonic does pretty well.

[1183] Sonic and Chester hang out.

[1184] Okay.

[1185] I think that that's true.

[1186] And maybe it's the fact that I was such a pariah in high school and all the handsome beautiful kids, beautiful kids, didn't want to talk to.

[1187] me at all.

[1188] So now maybe it's that.

[1189] I don't know.

[1190] But I also, because I think because I thought of myself is so ugly, I'd always put too much emphasis on how other people look and also how I look to a point where it was unhealthy for me. And it's probably still something I deal with.

[1191] Like if I see a guy who doesn't like take care of himself, I like judge them a little bit.

[1192] Which I understand it's not cool and it's very unfair.

[1193] No, I think it's fine to do it to guys.

[1194] I think we're due.

[1195] Keep doing it just to kind of write the scales a little bit.

[1196] But I will say this, I heard this in an AA meeting.

[1197] This guy said that, you know, he's so driven to get approval from women because he didn't get late in high school.

[1198] And that makes perfect sense.

[1199] And a lot of different guys were sharing like, oh, yeah, I think that's my thing too.

[1200] And then it got to me and I was like, bad news.

[1201] I got late in high school.

[1202] It didn't help at all.

[1203] I still want every single woman's approval.

[1204] Like, it didn't fill up anything.

[1205] Right.

[1206] It's just the nature of the beast.

[1207] I think so.

[1208] I think, you know, I think sometimes we want to try and find narratives in our life.

[1209] And sometimes it's like, there's no reason.

[1210] Well, I guess that's when I'm always rounding back towards is like, these are human conditional issues.

[1211] They're not like even specific to any one of us.

[1212] They're just kind of general human experience.

[1213] But I do think people had different experiences and different levels of, like, my high school experience was so fucking awful.

[1214] And I think a big part of pool.

[1215] what I am now is because of that, so I wouldn't change it.

[1216] But if I had a kid, I would not want them to go through that.

[1217] And I know there were kids who it was worse for, but it wasn't that many of them.

[1218] And most, most people were in a much better situation than I was.

[1219] Right.

[1220] For sure.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] Yes.

[1223] Objectively, a lot of people's experiences are much, much worse.

[1224] But you discover you're funny in college.

[1225] And then when do you decide that you're going to pursue it?

[1226] Because you, you, you graduated in 2001, and then your first credit, which is on S &Ls in 2008.

[1227] I mean, I've been doing it that whole time.

[1228] You were.

[1229] Okay.

[1230] That's how long it took.

[1231] Well, I'm with you.

[1232] I was 10 years unemployed here in L .A. Wow.

[1233] It's demoralizing.

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] So for me, you know, it was never really demoralizing because I always believed that I was funny.

[1236] I didn't ever believe that I was going to make it.

[1237] But I knew I was doing well on stage.

[1238] Right.

[1239] So basically in 2000, it was when I was.

[1240] I first did stand -up, senior year of college.

[1241] Uh -huh.

[1242] And it was sort of this thing where...

[1243] In Iowa.

[1244] In Iowa.

[1245] Uh -huh.

[1246] Where I'd sort of fallen in love with stand -up comedy to the point where I was so obsessed with it.

[1247] That even though I was so shy, it just was not an option to not try it.

[1248] I don't know how else to describe it.

[1249] I just had to do it.

[1250] If I had any choice, I would have not done it.

[1251] But I truly had no choice.

[1252] Right.

[1253] I had to try it.

[1254] I became so obsessed with stand -up.

[1255] I watched everything.

[1256] Like, I sort of covered 40 years of stand -up in a year, you know.

[1257] It's all I would watch.

[1258] Do you have a favorite?

[1259] I would say, you know, at that point, I was obsessed with Conan O 'Brien, that show.

[1260] Sure.

[1261] I was obsessed with Seinfeld and his stand -up and the show.

[1262] I was obsessed with this comedian Jake Johansson, who I think is, he's still really funny.

[1263] If you can see him perform, go see him, he's amazing.

[1264] Zach Alfenakis.

[1265] So those were sort of my people that when I first started.

[1266] And I moved to Chicago.

[1267] So I did it once.

[1268] First semester, senior year, one second semester senior year.

[1269] And, you know, the crowd was full of my friends or people supported me. It went amazing.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] Misleading maybe a little bit.

[1272] Oh, yeah.

[1273] Then I moved to Chicago and I started doing open mics.

[1274] And I was very lucky in that I didn't have a bad set until I was three or four months in.

[1275] Okay.

[1276] So I'd sort of like been, because I was so obsessed with that, I've been writing for like a year before I ever did it.

[1277] So when I got to Chicago, going up for like four minutes at a time, each time I would go up, I would have new material to try.

[1278] And I honestly, I'm really not bragging, but I really started off doing really well in Chicago.

[1279] Right.

[1280] And Chicago, the ceiling's pretty low.

[1281] Mm -hmm.

[1282] And so that's where I met, you know, a lot of people who are doing really well now, like Hannibal and Pete Holmes and all these people.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] And we would - Did you meet Thomas Midditch ever then?

[1285] A couple years later, yeah.

[1286] So I've known him from Chicago, too.

[1287] Right.

[1288] Yeah, yeah.

[1289] So it's weird that me and Thomas and TJ all started in Chicago and then it ended up on the same TV.

[1290] Did you know TJ back then?

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] Oh, you did?

[1293] Yeah.

[1294] Was he doing like...

[1295] He was doing everything.

[1296] He was improv and sketch and stand -up?

[1297] Yeah.

[1298] He was sort of the bridge between those two worlds.

[1299] So I met Thomas through TJ.

[1300] Oh.

[1301] The worlds were pretty separate at that point.

[1302] So you were only doing stand -up.

[1303] You didn't do sketch or improv?

[1304] No, while I was there.

[1305] So I was there from 2001 to 2007.

[1306] And towards the end of it, the scene sort of started mixing a little bit.

[1307] Now, when you were crafting and workshopping and deciding what your comedic persona was, were you tempted to like, well, I'm going to acknowledge that I have an accent, that I, like, because to me, I can imagine myself just kind of going with the, for lack of a better word, the easiest way in.

[1308] Well, if you do the math, you'll figure out that I started doing stand -up in 2001, like August, and then September 11th happened.

[1309] Oh, wow.

[1310] I really was doing stand -up right once.

[1311] number 11th happened and what happened right after that was there were people don't remember this but there were a lot of like middle eastern muslim brown comedians that came up right after that who were really talking about that stuff a lot and there were a lot of news stories and stuff being done about them like there were really a bunch of people and the angle was always like a Muslim who's funny what that's crazy right and so my reaction to that was to go the opposite way okay not talk about it at all right that was sort of my fuck you to the audience where it was like, I'm not going to do this.

[1312] Well, I think that, I think that's brave.

[1313] That's not the low hanging fruit.

[1314] That's the much harder path.

[1315] But it was also just that the people I loved, whose comedy I loved were not like that.

[1316] So it's not like I could do that even if I wanted to.

[1317] It's not what I wanted to do.

[1318] And it's not what I really could do.

[1319] So I sort of, I made it this thing that I wouldn't talk about on stage.

[1320] And it wasn't until years later where I was like, oh, this is a big part of me of who I am.

[1321] Well, I watched this morning your S &L monologue.

[1322] when you hosted in 17, and it's so fucking great.

[1323] I mean, it's really, really, really, really funny.

[1324] Oh, thank you.

[1325] Thank you.

[1326] Yeah, so I decided later, like, you know, 2006, I should talk about this stuff in a way that's, like, really unique to me or my actual stuff.

[1327] Yeah.

[1328] Again, it's back to what we were saying right at the beginning, which is like we have a narrative, we have an identity.

[1329] We have ways we want to be seen, ways we don't want to be seen.

[1330] and then sometimes we're actually denying parts of who we are, but then other times, you know, it's just a very complicated decision.

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] And, you know, this is something that I sort of came to somewhat recently.

[1333] So I've been doing comedy a long time and you sort of your goals develop, you know, so I was like, I just want to do stand -up.

[1334] And then I was like, oh, I want to write for a TV show.

[1335] And then I got to act on a TV show.

[1336] And then I was like, now I want to like, you know, we got to write a movie.

[1337] So now I want to at some point direct.

[1338] So your goals change, right?

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] And I would feel bad about my.

[1341] self because I wrote for S &L for a week, like, I think it was right around maybe 2010 or something.

[1342] Okay.

[1343] And I wasn't good at it, I felt, and I sort of would always feel bad because I couldn't do character.

[1344] Like, I have friends who are so good at it, like, Thomas Middletage or Nick Crowell, you know, they're so good at that stuff.

[1345] And I was like, oh, man, I'm not funny in that way.

[1346] And like a year ago, I was like, you know what?

[1347] That's okay.

[1348] that's a whole area of comedy that's not my thing i'm not good at sketch i'm not good at characters that's fine i am good at other kinds of stuff and i sort of have to be okay with that i sort of for a while felt inadequate comedically because i was surrounded by people who could do that kind of comedy and do all this other stuff sure i would try to do but i was like i it's you know what it's not my strength and that's okay well and there's this hiccup in reasoning it almost seems like it would require some really heightened level of arrogance to assume, well, no, this thing I do will be a thing.

[1349] Well, you just sort of have to do the thing you do.

[1350] You do, yeah.

[1351] Better at it and expand it and deepen it and all that.

[1352] But for me, it was that.

[1353] I was like, I know how I can be funny.

[1354] And I would read a script and they would be like, can you do this?

[1355] I'm like, yeah, I was like, I would have to change the lines a little bit because these lines are funny, but they're not funny coming from me. Right.

[1356] know what I would need to do to make it funny coming from me, but it's not this.

[1357] Yeah.

[1358] And I had to be okay with that.

[1359] I had to be like, if I can, like, control a little bit of the situation.

[1360] Yeah.

[1361] To work into my advantage, that's not.

[1362] I have a very similar take on it as well.

[1363] It's like, I know what things are kind of weird about me, and weird in a good way.

[1364] And so I'll go like, well, this speech, if it just even had these three words, it would, it anchor me and who I am.

[1365] I could actually make the other parts make sense.

[1366] if I can just ground it in these three little daxisms for a lack of a word.

[1367] Right.

[1368] I mean, and I think that's great to recognize that and to be able to, if you're in a position to like work those in, amazing.

[1369] Like right now, I was telling you this, I want to get like buff, you know.

[1370] I want to get, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1371] And I've never been like that.

[1372] I've never been big.

[1373] I've always appreciated men's bodies.

[1374] And I'm like, I'm like 41 now and I'm like, if it doesn't happen now, it's not going to happen.

[1375] And part of it is a little bit of a math thing, you know.

[1376] I've had people make snide comments.

[1377] Like, you know, what are you going to play a superhero?

[1378] What are you going to be an action movie?

[1379] Yeah.

[1380] And I'm like, yeah, motherfucker, I'm going to do it.

[1381] I figure, if I can be buff, if I can be a buff brown guy who's funny in the way that I'm funny, there's nobody else like that.

[1382] That's for certain.

[1383] Oh, I bet Hassan could throw on some real muscle mass. Hassan.

[1384] He's got that frame.

[1385] He's got a really nice frame.

[1386] I bet he could pack on.

[1387] Yeah, but he's a social commenter.

[1388] That's, thank God.

[1389] He is.

[1390] You should do that.

[1391] And he's amazing at it.

[1392] Yes.

[1393] Don't try and broaden your home.

[1394] Just do what you do, which is amazing.

[1395] I'll do this.

[1396] You do that.

[1397] We'll take over the world together.

[1398] I love Hassan.

[1399] He's so great.

[1400] Tell me your approach to putting on muscle because this is obviously a big preoccupation of my own.

[1401] Yes.

[1402] So I started doing this six weeks ago.

[1403] I have sort of the summer off.

[1404] I gave myself five months.

[1405] I came up with a somewhat arbitrary number, 20 pounds.

[1406] of muscle, I want to add.

[1407] So I'm doing like body scans every four weeks.

[1408] Oh, you are?

[1409] Yeah, I'm really going for it.

[1410] You're going the Russian and Rocky 3 Iraq.

[1411] Dude, you know what this guy does?

[1412] It's so funny you mentioned that.

[1413] So I have a trainer and I do stim training.

[1414] So he hooks me up.

[1415] He has a machine and he puts pads on me, electric pads, and they electrocute me. Okay.

[1416] If you put it on my bicep, contracts really hard.

[1417] Okay.

[1418] And then he makes me do like curls through that.

[1419] Oh, really?

[1420] I'll be getting shocked while I'm working that muscle with weights.

[1421] Oh, I want to do this.

[1422] It's, dude, it.

[1423] It works.

[1424] The male -female divide just like slam.

[1425] Oh, my God.

[1426] Emily is so bored.

[1427] I am so happy you're here.

[1428] People are like, does that work?

[1429] Sounds like bro -science.

[1430] It works because I know when I do it without it and when I do it with it, I feel the difference.

[1431] You're swall.

[1432] I feel swall.

[1433] I'm very, very sore the next day.

[1434] So I did, like, quads two days ago, and I'm still very sore from it.

[1435] Oh, I want to do this.

[1436] And I'm six weeks in.

[1437] Not to brag, but I've gained five pounds of muscle so far.

[1438] Great.

[1439] Six weeks.

[1440] Yeah, but it's like noob gains, you know?

[1441] Like, it'll slow down.

[1442] You're going to plateau.

[1443] This is all Reddit talk.

[1444] I go on a lot of, like, Reddit message boards.

[1445] And are you taking creatine?

[1446] Yeah, I'm doing creatine.

[1447] I'm trying to do, this is a lot, I'm trying to do 200 grams of protein a day.

[1448] Yes, yes, that's so hard, right?

[1449] It's so much food.

[1450] I do four protein shakes every day.

[1451] And in the beginning, my trainer was like, you know, the hardest part of this process is going to be eating the food.

[1452] And I was like, don't worry, dude, I got it.

[1453] For three weeks, it was amazing.

[1454] And then I hit a wall, and I just could not eat at all.

[1455] Yes.

[1456] I would go to fancy restaurants with friends, and I would, like, eat not a thing.

[1457] Do you eat meat?

[1458] I do, yeah.

[1459] But then what happened was I was eating a lot of red meat and it shot up my cholesterol.

[1460] Okay.

[1461] Well, no pain, no gain.

[1462] I'm sorry.

[1463] I'm talking about it.

[1464] I'm cramping right now.

[1465] So I went and got a cardiologist because I'm like, I'm working out so hard.

[1466] Sometimes I work out so much I can't catch my breath for 20 minutes.

[1467] I got a cardiologist to sort of, you know, I'm going to be doing regular checkups, make sure I'm okay.

[1468] Yeah.

[1469] I mean, the goal is to get rabdo.

[1470] Just to get what?

[1471] The goal is to get rhabdo.

[1472] Do you know rhabdo?

[1473] Am I saying it right, Monica?

[1474] Yeah, Rabdo.

[1475] It's what people who do CrossFit sometimes get, like a small percentage of people.

[1476] Because they're overworking one muscle so much.

[1477] It liquefies and enters your bloodstream.

[1478] And then your kidneys fail and stuff.

[1479] So that's the goal.

[1480] Rabdo.

[1481] I feel that I had it one time.

[1482] From one workout.

[1483] I think CrossFit is tough because there's a high risk of injury with the way that they're trained.

[1484] They're very high risk.

[1485] So I don't like it.

[1486] I never want to.

[1487] talk disparaging about it because my friend Charlie owns a crossfit gym perfect 10 and i'm obsessed with his body speaking of great is that the name of his gym or is that how you describe it monica well we call him perfect 10 and monica made me this calendar of him and it's all shirtless photos of charlie and i just i just i love it it's great dude i love it i follow so many buff dudes but your show silicon valley we monica and i fell in love with because we were gonna interview thomas and we're like we should watch the show and then we got fucking hooked, hooked.

[1488] I think I didn't, like, because I love Mike Judge and I worked for him.

[1489] Right.

[1490] I have this.

[1491] Oh, you're great in this movie.

[1492] Oh, thank you.

[1493] Indiocracy.

[1494] You're so good in it.

[1495] Thank you.

[1496] And I think I have an emotional, like there's an emotional weight with anything he does that I'm not in.

[1497] Sure.

[1498] So I think I didn't want to see that show.

[1499] Are you?

[1500] Dude, if I auditioned for a movie and I don't get it, I cannot see that movie.

[1501] And I am rooting for it to fail.

[1502] Yeah, that's fair That's pretty normal But we watched it And then we were like Oh my God, we were sleeping on this show It's so good I think we watched like 10 episodes In the first day or something Yeah, we really We love it You're brilliant on it Oh, thank you There's more seasons of that Or There's one more I mean at least one more I don't know At least one more Definitely we've been picked up For one more So we go shoot that Starting next month Okay and that'll be Season 5 Six.

[1503] Season six.

[1504] So this will be six.

[1505] And do you enjoy it?

[1506] I love it.

[1507] I mean, it's the best job.

[1508] It's great to be on a show that I would watch even if it wasn't on it, you know.

[1509] And I love everybody involved.

[1510] Mike's the best guy.

[1511] Alec Berg is sort of the showrunner guy and he's amazing.

[1512] He does Barry now too.

[1513] Oh, great.

[1514] I have not seen this season because it's a, you know, it's like our like dad left to go get another family.

[1515] Right.

[1516] It's that emotional.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] Well, and I'm very happy.

[1519] before his success.

[1520] He's a true genius and a lovely, lovely, lovely guy.

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] But it's still a little complicated.

[1523] It's always complicated.

[1524] First, I just got to say this because you were named 2018 time named you one of the most hundred most influential people in the world.

[1525] Yeah.

[1526] Wow.

[1527] When that happens, what do you think?

[1528] What do you think?

[1529] I mean, you know, I was obviously very flattered, but any of these things, you just kind of got to escape by.

[1530] Yeah, you're best not to even think about it probably right right i mean you know of all the things we we got nominated for an academy award yes was amazing because i first best screenplay for yeah yeah the big sick i love the oscars i've been watching them since i was a kid i would record them and watch them over and over and that meant a lot but even with that you kind of have to be like give yourself time to appreciate it and then put it away you know and so with the time thing i was like i can't process this great no emily she was like you know you have to enjoy your accomplishments a little bit because the first time I did Letterman was so like important to me as soon as I did it and I went well and I was like okay so how when do I do it again and she's like enjoy this moment enjoy that it's done you did a good job and so try to do it but I had the exact same thing I did Letterman he seemed to like me yeah I was so excited and I thought oh I'll be on the show all the time now be one of the guys who likes and I just I yeah it was all results oriented yeah yeah like I was staring at him Two feet from my face.

[1531] And I was like, this is really the only thing I dreamt of.

[1532] I was present enough, which is rare for me, to actually go, holy fuck, I'm looking at him.

[1533] Well, so for me doing Conan was like that.

[1534] Because with Letterman, I just did stand up.

[1535] I wasn't on the couch.

[1536] He came and said hi and I was like, hey.

[1537] And I remember being like, oh, he's wearing makeup.

[1538] Like, that was the only thought I had.

[1539] And then he just walks away and he's gone from your life forever.

[1540] But with Conan, it's always like that because I am such a fan of his.

[1541] and he's such a big part of the reason that I do what I do.

[1542] And when I hosted SNL, in my monologue, I was like, I have to, when I go out, all I have to do is I have to take a moment to like enjoy and appreciate that I am here.

[1543] Yes.

[1544] It's probably the hardest thing to do of the whole night, right?

[1545] Yes.

[1546] It really is because it goes by so fast.

[1547] And you really, so I was like, that's my only goal for the monologue.

[1548] I want to like take a moment to be like, I'm fucking doing this.

[1549] Yeah.

[1550] If you watch it, you could see me. me, I actually have a moment where I, like, really feel it.

[1551] Yeah.

[1552] The other thing that happens in that is I stumble on a word, and this is what happened.

[1553] I was doing my monologue, and I'm doing it, I'm doing it.

[1554] And I look over to the right, and I see Steven Spielberg standing there.

[1555] Oh, boy.

[1556] Under a light, and it's definitely Steven Spielberg, you know?

[1557] Uh -huh.

[1558] Like, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, oh, that's definitely Steven Spielberg.

[1559] And I stumble on a word, and if you watch it, you will know exactly the moment I notice Stephen Spielberg.

[1560] Like, now that I've told you this, it's my cuddle.

[1561] You will know.

[1562] And I, like, sort of stumble.

[1563] And you'll see me sort of look away from Steven Spielberg, take a big deep breath, and, like, compose myself and then continue.

[1564] That's my only regret in that monologue is that I, like, stumble, but it's a good reason to stumble.

[1565] It's a great reason, yeah.

[1566] Yeah.

[1567] It's a great, great monologue.

[1568] Okay.

[1569] So, you're one of the most influential people in the world.

[1570] I don't dispute that.

[1571] 2019, this year, this is going to be.

[1572] Go ahead and dispute.

[1573] This is a big year Because you're in Men in Black International Which comes out June 14th One of my very favorite movies It makes my top 10 for sure Is the original men in black So good right What a fucking movie that was Again I love that movie so much And I'm like I want to be part of that Yes Yeah no and I think I haven't seen the new one yet But it's so exciting To be a part of it I was just in yesterday to like finish up My performance I played like a little alien CG character uh -huh so i was there and you know you're doing a dr and you're seeing scenes and you're like holy shit this is men and blah yeah yeah this is the big leagues yeah it looks great i'm so excited to see it that's awesome and then you also have stuber with dave baptista yeah oh you must have just been all over his body with your eyes oh dude you hug him it feels like hugging a concrete pillar oh oh his is he a hugger too on oh he really he's the sweetest guy you will have He would be great on here.

[1574] All right, I'll have him on.

[1575] You would love him, and he is, I mean, if he's not at 10, who is?

[1576] Well, maybe that'll be our first, because when Rob left McElheny, I said to him, you know, it crossed my mind that we should have done it shirtless.

[1577] So maybe I'll extend that to Dave.

[1578] Well, I will say being with Dave shirtless is very intimidating because, like, Rob's an amazing shape.

[1579] But Dave is another level.

[1580] It's a other, I mean, and I think Rob would not be offensive.

[1581] Different species, really.

[1582] I mean, he is, his shoulders are as big as watermelon.

[1583] Oh.

[1584] He is.

[1585] But so I asked Dave for a lot of workout recommendations and stuff.

[1586] But it's different.

[1587] It's like asking Michael Jordan about basketball.

[1588] He's just like, just dunk it.

[1589] Like, not helpful.

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] I, okay, maybe this is a weird avenue to go down.

[1592] Okay.

[1593] You know the alt -right world, right?

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] So I, I was on, I used to be on Reddit a lot when that sort of thing was rising and I sort of saw it happening.

[1596] The kind of nationalism?

[1597] Yeah, and then I checked out and then like the in -cells, you know what that is?

[1598] In -cell?

[1599] No. It's these dudes who are basically, virgins can't get laid and have called themselves in -cell as a way, involuntary celebration.

[1600] Oh, yes, I do know about this, and they feel like it's their right to have sex and they're right, but they've sort of identified as that.

[1601] Okay.

[1602] And they blame women, whatever.

[1603] So there's a guy, his name's Z -Z, Z -Y -Z -Z -Z -Z -Z -Z.

[1604] is what he goes by.

[1605] He's dead now.

[1606] He died at like 22.

[1607] He was like a big workout guy because there's a big in the alt -right world.

[1608] There's a big intersection of that with like bodybuilding.

[1609] If you think about like men being man and being controlled, there's overlap there.

[1610] So I got sort of obsessed with that world.

[1611] And there's this guy.

[1612] This guy like is was like super jacked like gorgeous man in every way.

[1613] And he died at the age of 22 in like Bangkok or something.

[1614] I would assume he was on something.

[1615] Sure, sure.

[1616] But I really got obsessed.

[1617] with that and now he's sort of become this weird like patron saint character so there's all these paintings of this guy Oh really?

[1618] Like putting their armor on like a like an overweight nerd or something Yeah so it's like it's become this whole mythology This guy does like he's like He's a prophet.

[1619] Yeah immortalized him I need to investigate that Without getting red flagged by Homeland Security It's an interesting world I thought And I got a little bit obsessed with it.

[1620] Well I do think implicit in some of these white nationals because I watch a lot of those documentaries.

[1621] I think, and I don't want to speak for all white nationalists, but I do think that there is an underpinning of actual, a sense of physical inferiority.

[1622] Like, I feel like it underpins a little of it.

[1623] I think there's a lack of power is certainly part of it.

[1624] And I think physical inferiority is part of it.

[1625] And they feel like emasculated by the black male in cases.

[1626] I think so.

[1627] I think that's true.

[1628] Because of their ultimate fear is that the black male would have sex.

[1629] with their white women.

[1630] I mean, that's such a big part of porn right now.

[1631] Black males with female, white females?

[1632] Like the cuck thing is a big part of porn.

[1633] It'll be like a black guy having sex with a woman while a husband is like watching and crying.

[1634] That's like a big part of it.

[1635] And there's these strata of masculation that have kind of been attached to certain groups, which is just very fascinating.

[1636] Well, it's also interesting if you see someone like, I feel like I want to be a man and I want to walk a certain way and, you know, present as being intimidating in someone which is kind of hilarious, but someone like Dave does not have that because he has all the power already.

[1637] So he's the kindest, gentlest, sweetest guy, super polite, you know, never uses that because he just always has it.

[1638] There's another movie I just want to mention that you have coming out, I guess, in 2020 is Lovebirds.

[1639] Isar Ray, yeah.

[1640] Iser Ray.

[1641] I'm a huge fan of hers.

[1642] I love her show.

[1643] The greatest.

[1644] Love her, love her, lover, lover.

[1645] She's going to, she's the future.

[1646] the present.

[1647] We had the best time doing that on that movie.

[1648] Just like working with someone who's so smart and so good at this and so fun and so cool.

[1649] And, you know, I haven't really had this specific experience other than with Emily where we're like making something and we're like totally creatively in lockstep the entire time.

[1650] Like we had disagreements and, you know, we, we would have arguments and stuff.

[1651] But it was always like, it always felt like we see it the exact same way.

[1652] Yes.

[1653] Might want to get there slightly differently, but I love working with her and I hope the movie's good.

[1654] I haven't seen it yet.

[1655] And that's your second time with Showalter?

[1656] Yeah, Michael Showalter.

[1657] And I adore him.

[1658] Sounds like you guys fought a little bit on set.

[1659] No. I'm totally teasing.

[1660] We need to fight for her on the big sick of Mike and I had to.

[1661] Well, I would imagine because that is a tricky, I've only directed things I wrote.

[1662] Right.

[1663] I've never had something I wrote be directed by someone else.

[1664] That would be very, difficult for me we had a couple of huge fights we had uh three huge fights two were his fault and one was my okay good so odds wise i think he would agree with that assessment yes um well sincerely i do hope you'll you'll come back to promote something and oh i would love it just scratched the surface i got i got to hear about those seven years in chicago yeah yeah yeah i mean those were fun to be continued a lot of wasted time all right well be well good luck with all these movies, and we adore you.

[1665] Thank you.

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