S21 E6: (2/2) [Emma] Choose Peace

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder.

[11] Content warnings for each episode and confidential resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[12] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[13] pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection.

[14] Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, broken cycle media, or Wondery.

[15] The podcast and any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment.

[16] Thank you so much for listening.

[17] When he was first arrested, that feeling was just incredible.

[18] I wasn't happy that he was going to get in trouble.

[19] I felt still at fault and I felt bad for whatever reason, even though he did all these things.

[20] But I finally wasn't living in this crazy fear.

[21] And it did still take me time to not look over my shoulder and to sleep well.

[22] but that phone call when he got arrested, it was just the best.

[23] When they first arrested him, it was really confusing, actually, because I didn't really know what that process looked like.

[24] I would go onto the dockets a lot online and try to follow it.

[25] The state hooked me up with this prosecutor who was incredible.

[26] He would keep me in the loop and say, okay, we have a pretrial set for this state.

[27] I would get so nervous knowing that the state was coming up, And then it would be continued at the request of the defendant for ongoing discovery.

[28] And so then a new date would be set for a month later.

[29] There is a fear to it of what is going to happen, like the fear of the unknown, and they want a continuance again.

[30] So then it just keeps pushing down and sometimes it would be pushed a month later or three weeks later.

[31] And they had so many continuances for this ongoing discovery from November to the last pre -trial was May 20th of 2014, and then they finally had the trial on June 3rd of 2014.

[32] My home state flew me in as a witness, and I was going to give my statement.

[33] The day that I got into my home state and we went to the court, my mom was out of the country at the time.

[34] My aunt was around, So I flew in and stayed with my aunt.

[35] She took me to court.

[36] Her neighbor was a prosecutor in a different area, but it was kind of helpful to have someone that knew the building and everything.

[37] It was really scary because I'm going to see him.

[38] I can picture, like, exactly where we parked, walking in, and we were just looking left, right, left, right.

[39] When you're out of state, it doesn't feel like he could send someone after you, but being there, I felt like he would do anything to not get in trouble.

[40] That was really scary walking in.

[41] And then I remember sitting in this little area with my prosecutor as he prepped what was happening and told me that they're doing a plea deal, but that they're going to call the victim to share their statement.

[42] What's crazy is I don't remember reading that.

[43] I purposely didn't even look over to the left where they had him, but I know he was there for that.

[44] But then there's this part of me. It was like, was he even in the room?

[45] Because I have no memory of it, which is also scary.

[46] They pled guilty for lesser charges on some of them.

[47] I think that's where the Florida one got dropped and maybe some got pushed to a misdemeanor.

[48] But it was also like, why did you act like you were going to go to trial and I'm here now?

[49] They made them subpoena all these witnesses.

[50] And I remember the judge was angry at that.

[51] Like, you wasted everybody's time just to plead guilty the last second.

[52] I remember him asking him if he was sober and he admitted, no, he was not.

[53] And so they immediately took him back into custody until his sentencing, which was about a month later.

[54] You went to the hearing, you gave your witness statement, then you went back to Florida, because you were doing like the halfway house.

[55] And then your aunt went to sentencing on your behalf.

[56] Yes.

[57] My aunt, with her neighbor, again, the prosecutor, they went to the sentencing to hear what was going to happen, which she ended up recording.

[58] Just a real quick recap of the events that occurred here.

[59] It was a domestic fight that was.

[60] resulted from the department that had just started up, the victim was removing herself from the apartment that they shared.

[61] She was vialed the front of the ground that resulted in the broken collarbone.

[62] Collar lung required surgery, plates, screws, scarring.

[63] The victim, I think there's an overall theme throughout this entire event, it's fear.

[64] She was fearful when the defendant took her to the hospital.

[65] She didn't make any report with the city next to work.

[66] She was fearful for the next four or five months that transpired afterwards where she was receiving threats and essentially being terrorized by the defendant.

[67] When I was aware of this information, I told Mr. B. B. Three things.

[68] I said, you're going to need some money together because you're going to have to respond.

[69] We need to surrender you to the police.

[70] The police have no contact.

[71] This is going to make matters worse.

[72] Mr. Buh, unfortunately followed one of my advice.

[73] And as I stated, proceeded to shoot himself in the court of people in the form of text, messages and phone calls.

[74] If your attorney wants to make this about, for what he's so bipolar, they can't put him back in, Judge, it's not going to know.

[75] What you are demonstrating here today is that when you're not out being an idiot that I'm cleaning this up, okay?

[76] Because when I talk to the guys at the buyer, he used a slightly different adjective.

[77] if you weren't being such a difficult, destructive, selfish, idiot, okay?

[78] We've been here discussing this with me, calmly, rationally.

[79] You look good, thick and clear, you're not manic.

[80] Right?

[81] So, you know, what comes first, particularly the idiot.

[82] I mean, is the B. Here because he's so mentally unbound?

[83] I don't think so.

[84] I think B. I think B. because he's been an idiot for a lot of years and he takes even do whatever the hell he wants to do and in terms of personal responsibility and he just shows up in the court every once in a mile and he's not his mental illness and it's bullshit as far as a minister you are a file of a guy well you know when you take meth and you keep yourself up or 72 hours straight and you're drunk and you just lost all your money at the casino and you're hanging around with this woman who's doing drugs with you that, there's plenty of opportunities for conflict to realize, right?

[85] You're living at the low end, at the semenian of society.

[86] And this is where you've chosen to live your life for where it's an argument.

[87] That's what I see, or when I see this report, you can give an opportunity after opportunity to clean up your act.

[88] You know, you've been in drug treatment, you've been out probation a number of times.

[89] You know what the message is, You can't use, dude.

[90] You can't use any mind -altering substance.

[91] But what you do is you do exactly what I said you do.

[92] You use it not daily or that or code or certainly booze and pie.

[93] Right?

[94] You're so out of control that you're notorious here.

[95] You got your picture on the casino and they do the law enforcement work that we don't have the manpower for the person on.

[96] And they arrest you.

[97] The judge went off on him, like, basically went down this, long list of all these things he had done all of his record.

[98] And he has an extensive, extensive record.

[99] Like, there's multiple prior domestic violences, fraud, unlawful restraint and violating his PO.

[100] And the judge was just like, we've sent you to prison before.

[101] It obviously didn't help, but at least you're off the street.

[102] And Joel tried to say, I have these mental health things.

[103] And the judge was just like, you guys want to claim that you have ADHD, but you were just on drugs and you're just a bad person.

[104] And his attorney was like, I told him that we could help him if he just stopped contacting her and he didn't even listen to me. And so that shows that he has some sort of mental health issue and he just needs help because he wouldn't even listen to me as his attorney.

[105] But the judge didn't take that the same way.

[106] He just put him in his place.

[107] My aunt and her neighbor were terrified.

[108] They said that he looked back as if looking maybe for me or for my family and made eye contact with my aunt.

[109] And it just scared them a lot.

[110] He's got these black eyes.

[111] And so they were really scared.

[112] When the judge also was listing off his entire criminal history, going through all of these prior charges he had, it just put it all out there of how bad this person was.

[113] They said that his family was behind him.

[114] and it was also odd to see that he had his whole family basically supporting him.

[115] They know that he's been arrested before and he's been to prison before and they've stayed by his side all through that.

[116] To be honest, I think they're in La La Land.

[117] It's not even the vibe of like, well, maybe he can get better.

[118] It's like he didn't do this.

[119] They would write these letters on his defense when he would try to get parole.

[120] and they're all online, like on his docket, you can read a lot of them, and it's just like, he's a good person and he means well, and it's just obvious.

[121] They don't know him.

[122] And so it is hard because these are other women.

[123] I think it's his mom and his grandma.

[124] And I don't blame his family for having his back because, you know, a lot of people would argue that's a good family.

[125] But there is also a reason he is the way he is.

[126] I do believe that part of that is from how he was raised, even his mom on our way to the emergency room after he had thrown me down.

[127] She's like, oh, my God, you're going to get arrested again.

[128] Don't go with her.

[129] There's just zero ownership.

[130] My aunt contacted me and said, he's going to prison for four years.

[131] But I remember she really didn't want to talk at all.

[132] She's like, I'm going to send you over the clips that she recorded.

[133] I think she was just spooked out and just didn't want to think about it anymore.

[134] I totally understand that.

[135] She was wiping her hands clean of it.

[136] Like here, I did my part and he's going to prison.

[137] No one had ever dealt with anything like this in my family.

[138] Obviously, I'm very lucky.

[139] Like, no one in my family has had to go in front of a judge or defend themselves or anything like that.

[140] And so it was just a very new experience.

[141] And a lot of times I think even just going to a courtroom is really scary.

[142] Even if you go for a friend of yours, everything about it feels so heavy.

[143] I had to write this statement and they have you fill out this paperwork.

[144] A lot of it's like victims compensation.

[145] You know, a lot of people need money for therapy or people will come after for the hospital bills and surgeries and everything.

[146] I didn't want anything from him, but they do ask, what would you like his punishment to be?

[147] And that's a really hard question to answer.

[148] I believe that people can change because I have.

[149] And my biggest hope would be that he changes and grows.

[150] And so I know that our prison system isn't the best for that, right?

[151] I said whatever the judge thought was appropriate.

[152] They did give him the max for the charges that he pled guilty to.

[153] He did get the max of four years.

[154] There's two menacing by stalking.

[155] One was null.

[156] And then there's an intimidation of crime victim or witness, and that one says null, which I think with the plea deal, he did not get intimidation.

[157] But he did have a misdemeanor menacing by stalking, domestic violence with a prior charge, and a felonious assault.

[158] I felt sad for him, but I also kept telling myself, I hope when he's in there, he's going to change and learn from this and be a better person.

[159] So I I definitely, through those four years, was very optimistic and hopeful.

[160] I told myself, when he gets out, like, I'm not going to have to deal with this anymore.

[161] Those four years, when he was in prison, it's the real time that I, like, got myself together.

[162] I got my first nursing job and started using my nursing degree, and I moved to another state, and I got my first apartment.

[163] I lived in, like, a la -la land where I didn't think about it at all.

[164] It was definitely inside of me somewhere that came out with therapy, but it was, just out of side out of mind.

[165] I had been thinking about it so much.

[166] I think my brain just was like, we're done.

[167] We're not even going to think about any of this.

[168] Fortunately, I did not get contacted from prison, even though I was told, like, they can have access to phones sometimes.

[169] I was not contacted.

[170] So I really was able to, like, go on with my life in a valuable way for me. I'm a registered nurse, and I have my bachelor's.

[171] I just never worked until after, but it was easy to move states having a nursing license.

[172] I'm really lucky.

[173] I never had like a record of anything happening.

[174] There's no charges on me. And so it was relatively easy to get a job and start work and what I went to school for.

[175] So that felt really good.

[176] I had another surgery at the end of 2014 where I got the plate in my collarbone removed.

[177] That was a big deal too because from when I had my first surgery for like a year and a half.

[178] They had this plate in my collarbone and it was so visible.

[179] You could see the outlines of it.

[180] And that was really hard for me too because everyone's like, what happened to your collarbone?

[181] And I feel like getting that out was a huge deal.

[182] I still have a scar and I can still see it.

[183] But not every time I look in the mirror.

[184] I signed up for Vine and that was helpful to have they notify you when they're released.

[185] I had them.

[186] text call and email me because I was so afraid the system wouldn't work.

[187] It's kind of hard to trust it.

[188] There was one point where they moved facilities for him.

[189] I guess sometimes they just move people around depending on what programs are available or where they're at in their prison sentence.

[190] They alerted me that day.

[191] I remember it coming across like he is no longer at this facility and your heart just drops.

[192] You're like, what's going on?

[193] And it's so spary.

[194] So I was, like, looking into things, and a lot of times online, like, it won't show right away.

[195] And so I was calling that prison and trying to find information.

[196] And I finally had gotten a hold of someone, like a secretary, basically, from the prison he was at.

[197] And they were nice enough to at least tell me, no, he's just moved to this facility and it's going to take time to get it online.

[198] He was trying to get parole.

[199] There's a whole thing you have to do online to get parole.

[200] And every so often, you can apply for it or whatever.

[201] whatever.

[202] And so he'd write these letters and they were a public.

[203] At first, it was like, I'm doing so well and I would do really well outside of prison because I've done all these classes and I've gained so many tools and I'm a better person.

[204] But there was never like any ownership of what he actually did.

[205] It would say something that a day goes by.

[206] I wish I would have handled things more rationally or I'm very sorry and take full responsibility.

[207] But then it would just go on this whole tangent.

[208] It was like these little snapshots of him still not okay or not really getting it.

[209] I guess those are like signs I should have seen like, okay, when he gets out, he's not any better.

[210] I have an email from the Vine service on March 2018.

[211] This email is to inform you that Joel is approaching the end of the court sentence and is scheduled to be released within 30 days.

[212] The release is currently scheduled to take place on March 31st, 2018.

[213] The state may change depending upon a number of factors.

[214] You may want to call the Vine Service as the date gets near to find out if it has been changed.

[215] You'll be notified again before the offender's scheduled release date.

[216] That was really scary.

[217] Because like I was saying, I was living like this didn't happen.

[218] So it kind of gets thrown back into your face and now you have 30 days.

[219] You don't know what's going to happen.

[220] I was doing online searches of myself.

[221] And when you looked up my name, for instance, you could see what hospital I was working at.

[222] And so I had to contact the HR at my hospital and say, hey, I need this information removed and attach his criminal record on that.

[223] And his mugshot, I had to also tell my manager, we had a meeting and I told her because he can just walk in, basically.

[224] I was also really sensitive because people would call our hospital unit and say so -and -so there.

[225] And a lot of times, I think unless something happens to you, you're just like, oh, no, they don't work today, they'll be back on this day, or they're just at lunch.

[226] It's too much information.

[227] You just can't give information about people help.

[228] I remember there was like a day someone called for me and one of my coworkers was like, yeah, someone called for you and they said they'll just call back later.

[229] And I was like, well, who was it?

[230] And they couldn't give me any information.

[231] Most likely it was probably like a patient's family member or someone, but like it could have been anyone.

[232] And it could have been Joel.

[233] So those feelings definitely kept creeping in again.

[234] The apartment complex I lived at, I gave them a mugshot, and it felt really embarrassing.

[235] But, like, you just have to do everything to protect yourself.

[236] And no one was rude about it or anything.

[237] Like, everybody was super supportive.

[238] I got a follow -up from the Vine saying this email was to inform me he's been released from custody.

[239] I was of April 3, 2018, and that he may have been released under supervision of adult parole authority.

[240] At that point, I called the number they gave me and was able to get the number of the parole office.

[241] It was like tons of phone calls just to find out what was going on.

[242] Because I had no idea what happens when someone's released.

[243] He had a parole for about a year.

[244] I think there was a month left of it.

[245] And I got this notification that I was tagged in a picture.

[246] You click that link to who it is, and it was him.

[247] I'm Dan Tversky.

[248] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[249] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[250] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[251] She's like, I can't.

[252] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[253] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[254] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[255] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[256] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[257] Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.

[258] You know, it's hysteria.

[259] It's all in your head.

[260] It's not physical.

[261] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[262] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[263] Or is it something else entirely?

[264] Something's wrong here.

[265] Something's not right.

[266] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[267] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[268] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[269] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[270] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[271] She had been under the influence and that she left him there.

[272] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[273] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[274] What happens next?

[275] Depends on who you ask.

[276] Was it a crime of passion?

[277] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[278] This was clearly an intentional act.

[279] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[280] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[281] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[282] Everyone had an opinion.

[283] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[284] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[285] Law and Crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[286] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[287] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[288] He had changed his Facebook profile picture to a picture of me and him when we were together.

[289] And that was really fucking creepy.

[290] I remember just seeing that and time stops.

[291] This guy just did four years.

[292] He served his entire sentence, and you're on parole now.

[293] You have to be good.

[294] It makes zero sense.

[295] I told his parole officer, like, hey, this happened.

[296] But also he was like, well, they didn't really contact you.

[297] We can't really do anything necessarily.

[298] But, yeah, this is weird.

[299] Let's keep an eye on it.

[300] So that was February.

[301] And then in May, he had changed his profile picture again, but it was like the same picture, but he updated it.

[302] So that was kind of weird as well.

[303] June of 2019, a little over a year that he was actually released from prison, he didn't show up to a parole meeting, which I think they were monthly.

[304] So he's getting these monthly drug tests and you have to show up for parole.

[305] And he had skipped that.

[306] There was another notification service that wasn't buying.

[307] It was like almost through the parole office.

[308] They notified me, but it was a guilty to escape charge, which I believe is a felony.

[309] And he was sentenced to go back to prison for seven months.

[310] He was on the run again during that time, but fortunately was not contacting me. Like I think he was really just hiding out.

[311] That's a scary time.

[312] because if someone's skipping their parole, they either use drugs, they're not well.

[313] I just appreciate that someone was looking out for me and wanted to let me know.

[314] It's the worst to have to call, like my mom and say, he didn't shop for his parole and trying to explain it all and it's stuff I don't even understand myself because I don't even have the full story, you know, and telling like my significant other and it's just this huge cloud over your relationship as well.

[315] You feel bad.

[316] That's not what they signed up for.

[317] And you're just kind of like a sitting duck in a way.

[318] Did he leave the state?

[319] Is he coming for me?

[320] And it was just another really scary time where then I'm again like looking over my shoulders and acting really off.

[321] They caught him relatively quickly.

[322] He skipped parole, went to prison for seven months.

[323] And then when he got out for that one, I kind of like dropped off from being the victim of his crime because now he had a newer crime.

[324] I don't even think he had that long of parole after.

[325] It almost like shortened everything.

[326] It was basically at that point forward.

[327] I couldn't call up and be like, yes, I'm the victim on that case and I need information.

[328] I was just like not part of it anymore, which is scary, but also kind of good in a way to like get away from having that constant tie to it.

[329] I really was lucky for a while after that.

[330] I didn't get any contact from him for a while.

[331] You know, every so often I would look up his name on the court records to try to see what was going on.

[332] And I went to look it up one day.

[333] there's like these new charges, and I open it up.

[334] It was rape, gross sexual imposition, attempted endangering children.

[335] He had a register as a sex offender online, and so I could also look that up.

[336] And under victim, it said juvenile male.

[337] Information isn't public, but you can make your own conclusions with that.

[338] I wish there was a way for victims from the same person.

[339] to opt in to talk.

[340] I know that would never happen and it would never be safe enough, but just to, like, validate each other because there was at least two other women who had charges of domestic violence against him as well before me. And so now there's this next person.

[341] It was just sickening.

[342] I knew the guy was twisted, but that's just a whole different level.

[343] I remember feeling guilty about also feeling that maybe he moved on from me finally onto someone else.

[344] He's hurt someone else now.

[345] At least he's not so obsessed with me anymore.

[346] I struggled a lot with knowing that I didn't want to have sex with him.

[347] It wasn't your standard picture of rape, but that's what it was to me. It was just validating because that was part of it too.

[348] We didn't go for that charge when my case was going on.

[349] I think he went to prison for the rape in 2021 at some point.

[350] He had gotten out.

[351] I was notified again.

[352] This email is to inform you that Joel has been released from supervision.

[353] Therefore, this case is no longer being supervised by the Department of Rehabilitation and Correction.

[354] So he got out August 18, 2021.

[355] And then a year after that, approximately on September 23rd, 2022, he was no longer under court supervision.

[356] One month later, October 26th, 2022, is when I get the message from him on Instagram.

[357] My profile's been private since all of this happened.

[358] I obviously did not accept it, but he says, Emma, I wanted to apologize to you for pushing you down and hurting you.

[359] Then intentionally exacerbating the entire situation.

[360] I'm truly sorry.

[361] It has haunted me for many years, and I have been stuck with the dichotomy of not saying anything or finally one day apologizing, and I obviously chose to be direct.

[362] I had to.

[363] I see you have a cause you're caring for.

[364] Let me go handle Las Vegas first.

[365] I've been prepping for this endeavor my entire life.

[366] I will then donate a very large sum of money.

[367] I have wanted to help people out in various ways myself.

[368] I just would never think to know what to do when I'm ready.

[369] Keep going, Emma.

[370] You're a smart girl with passion.

[371] Again, I apologize.

[372] I'm truly sorry.

[373] It was like out of the blue that was at 3 .16 a .m. I remember waking up and seeing his Instagram handle and then reading it.

[374] It's just terrifying.

[375] Why are you contacting me after all this time?

[376] The way he puts in there, I see you have a cause you're caring for.

[377] So he's obviously looked me up.

[378] He knows where I live.

[379] I volunteer.

[380] You're now at a domestic violence center.

[381] I'm also on the board of a sober high school.

[382] I don't know which cause he's talking about, but he knows one of them somehow.

[383] It felt like a threat in a way.

[384] It was like, I know where you are.

[385] I know what you're doing.

[386] I'm still up to my same old shit.

[387] And once I'm done, I'm going to help the cause that you're helping or something.

[388] It was odd.

[389] I just ignored that.

[390] And that was October.

[391] and then two months later, December 12th, 2022, I get another one from him.

[392] This one was 6 .48 a .m. And so the first one was an apology and it was maybe just a guy that's not mentally super well.

[393] He's trying to get his thoughts out there and then I get this.

[394] And also the fact that it was at 648 a .m. He didn't just wake up and write that.

[395] He's been up the whole night.

[396] You have to assume right.

[397] Saying, happy belated birthday.

[398] I'm a lucky Sagittarian.

[399] My Venus is in Scorpio.

[400] It was devastating at first, not understanding the dark side.

[401] My focus is awareness and I'm creating my purpose.

[402] Unfortunately, I'm so good at poker that I have to use that as my edge.

[403] I love poker, the theory, the practice, optimal gameplay, etc. I hope you get me a charity to donate to.

[404] I hope you get these.

[405] I have some projects coming up.

[406] Pittsburgh, D .C., Atlanta City, casinos.

[407] I'm going to walk in and take their money.

[408] I'll send you a link when I get it going.

[409] 10 years.

[410] Dot, dot, dot, dot, wow, dot, dot, dot, dot.

[411] I'm lucky to be alive and grateful to have the opportunity to express myself.

[412] Dot, dot, dot, peace.

[413] And the 10 years he means is since your relationship ended?

[414] Yeah.

[415] The tone, it looks just like other messages he had sent when he was on the run with his warrant.

[416] Same tone, the same threats, and the creepy undertones of it.

[417] At that point, you know, I've been two months since his last message.

[418] And so I'm like, is this what it's going to be now?

[419] And I didn't really have anyone to report that to because he was no longer on parole.

[420] It's really hard to know what to do because you can talk to other people, but they don't really understand what you went through.

[421] Everybody's situation's different.

[422] And I have huge respect for people that are willing to report it because when you get the stuff and record, then at least if not you, if the next person will see it.

[423] That's so powerful to like stand up for yourself and say, I'm not going to deal with this and you're not going to do this to me. I've thought about that and I've considered it so much.

[424] I called the court victim advocates office.

[425] It was this girl who helped me when this was all going on originally.

[426] And I was able to say, I know your name.

[427] I have your number.

[428] You helped me before and you never really get a chance to thank people.

[429] A lot of times they're faceless and that was really a cool moment.

[430] She was talking to me about it too.

[431] Like, yeah, he's contacting you and you don't really have a protective order, but the judge ordered zero contact for life.

[432] So he technically is breaking that, but it's a lot harder when you don't have a protective order to really get a charge.

[433] Even if you have a protective order, honestly, it's hard too.

[434] Nothing might even come out of it.

[435] He's going to know that I've read it.

[436] He's going to know that it affected me some way.

[437] It's just going to reopen this whole thing.

[438] And at that point, he had like two charges after the one with me. I just didn't want to be that last charge he had again.

[439] But it's hard because I think a lot of people, if they keep hearing you complain about something, it's almost like you don't have the right to be upset about it because I'm not doing anything about it.

[440] But there's so many reasons why I can't really do anything about it or that it makes sense to me, I'd rather him not even know that it ever got to me. I'd rather him sit in himself and think, I don't know if she's ever gotten a message from me. I don't even know if it's getting through to her versus knowing that he can still get to me and reopening that box.

[441] Not only that, but now I'm trying to get him in trouble again.

[442] And he's obviously up in the middle of the night.

[443] So I'm assuming on drugs.

[444] And there's so much risk that comes with that.

[445] Everything when I first went to the police, when this all started, and going through that again and how scary that time was, it really deterred me. And I hate to say that because I don't want anyone to be deterred from going to the police and having someone be held responsible for what they did.

[446] But I had already done that.

[447] And so it's like, what am I really going to get out of this?

[448] I just have to choose peace for my life right now.

[449] And it's not something.

[450] I'm willing to take on.

[451] But it's also like, it's not even a lot of evidence either.

[452] At that point, there's two messages on Instagram and one's saying sorry, kind of.

[453] And the other is saying happy birthday in the weirdest way.

[454] My father passed away on March 26th.

[455] I know that there was one year.

[456] I think he sent me something like, oh, I read the obituary.

[457] I know he knows that date significance.

[458] he would bring that stuff up a lot, trying to act like we had something in common.

[459] I don't know what his dad died of.

[460] He's always been like, oh, my dad abused me, acting like we both didn't have our dads or something, even though our dads were totally different people.

[461] And he'd make comments about that, which was so insulting.

[462] That's so personal and just making it about him.

[463] He'll go a year and a half or however long and then send another.

[464] You get to a point where you're like, if he's going to come do something, just fucking come do it.

[465] Good luck.

[466] I've made these plans in my mind, like, what would happen if he actually got to me, like, in a parking lot or something?

[467] And I've gone through entire scenarios.

[468] My fear is he does something to my family to get to me. I don't want to necessarily report that he's still contacting me because now I'm poking the bear and he may go after my family.

[469] Like right now, I don't see that he would go after my family because his tone is odd, but at least it's not anger and hate.

[470] If you read through all of his messages and everything that he has sent over the years.

[471] They're all over the place.

[472] You have to read between the lines.

[473] And a lot of them did say stuff.

[474] Like, I know you're a good girl and I know you know how to do the right thing.

[475] I don't know what he wants out of it.

[476] If I'm going to reply and be like, oh, I forgive you.

[477] Yeah, everything's fine.

[478] This year in March 16, 8 .52 p .m. Emma, your dog is beautiful.

[479] I sent you a letter over a year ago, an apology period.

[480] I'm sorry for manipulating you.

[481] you.

[482] I loved your look the minute I saw you.

[483] I'm sorry I was an abusive, narcissistic piece of shit.

[484] It would be weird, period.

[485] But you're a good girl, Emma.

[486] You tried to help me in our small time.

[487] I forgave myself.

[488] I hope you forgive me. I will be the change.

[489] You look nice.

[490] And that was it.

[491] This one actually came from a different username.

[492] And so I didn't open it right away.

[493] I'd opened it, I think, almost 24 hours later.

[494] And I was confused at first, like, who is this?

[495] And then I clicked the profile and it's him.

[496] Every time it's just your heart drops for a second.

[497] But it doesn't affect me the same way as they used to.

[498] Part of that is just the amount of time that's passed.

[499] Part of me felt good because all he can see is my profile picture, which is a very old picture.

[500] He's making references to that.

[501] That's also nice to know that he doesn't know me now.

[502] He's just seeing that picture back then and not making comments to, what I'm currently doing like he used to write about.

[503] So it doesn't feel as much of a threat.

[504] But when I get this, I feel obligated to tell my family that I got it because I don't want to keep them in the dark about that because they went through the entire situation with me where they're getting threats.

[505] They're getting weird phone calls and messages.

[506] Having to talk about it with my current boyfriend as well, it's the worst, honestly.

[507] When I got this one, I actually was out of town.

[508] All I did was sent a screenshot of it to my boyfriend and I said, hey, I got this.

[509] I'm fine.

[510] I really don't want to talk about it.

[511] But I also think you have the right to know about it.

[512] So I just wanted to share it with you.

[513] And he's so awesome.

[514] He's just replied, thank you.

[515] Let me know if you need anything.

[516] It's really nice one to have someone that accepts what's going on is there for you.

[517] I don't want to talk about it a lot.

[518] I don't need to talk about it and let him interject himself into in my life.

[519] So it's nice to be able to share it with someone and not have to dwell on it and we haven't brought it up again since.

[520] I don't want it to be the center of everything ever again.

[521] Yeah, you deserve to move on and flourish and focus on the things you're doing now.

[522] However you decide to navigate it going forward is up to you.

[523] Something I have to tell myself constantly is I have the power over what I give my energy to and how much of it.

[524] Of course, things are going to catch us off guard.

[525] Things are going to trigger us.

[526] Things are going to pop up.

[527] And we need to sit with those emotions and feel those things so that we can process them and move on.

[528] Right.

[529] Like, he could send me a message and it would throw off my entire day and I wouldn't be able to sleep.

[530] Then you also feel like, damn it, like, why do I still let him have this power over me?

[531] And I'm not even in the relationship with him anymore.

[532] And so then you start feeling even worse about it all because it's like you're allowing him to do that.

[533] Not anymore.

[534] That's not going to be part of my life anymore.

[535] We're healing, we're moving forward.

[536] I love that he doesn't even know if I've read it.

[537] And in my mind, I can just pretend I've never read it.

[538] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[539] I'm Sachi Cole.

[540] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[541] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade.

[542] falls away.

[543] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[544] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[545] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[546] Follow scam influencers on the Wonder app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[547] You can listen to scam influencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[548] The people I went to rehab with, the majority of people relapsed and some died.

[549] I'm sure there are other people who stayed sober other than me, but from the day I went to rehab, I never used or drank again.

[550] The main reason why I'm sober today is because of the this whole situation ship with Joel.

[551] Whenever I think about, oh, it'd be fun to have a glass of wine or you smell weed everywhere these days.

[552] But it's like my immediate thought is that I will lose everything I have and there's this fear of ending up right back in another situation like I was in.

[553] And not that I blame drugs and alcohol.

[554] Like I made those decisions, but the person I am when I'm, using is not the person I want to be.

[555] I have a huge gratitude for all of this because it got me sober.

[556] And I definitely was an addict before I met Joel.

[557] I'm an addict after I met him.

[558] But if it wasn't for him, I don't know if I would have gotten sober and I don't know if I would have stayed sober.

[559] I think a lot of the way I live today, it's appreciating these little things.

[560] Like when you have a loving guy next to you or healthy relationships and what those look like and being able to communicate your feelings without raising your voice, how to cope the loss of someone or how to get through difficult times sober.

[561] I have 10 and a half years sober.

[562] I did it with the 12 -step program.

[563] One of my friends from one of the programs one day called me and he's like, hey, there's the school and it's like a sober high school and I think you'd be an awesome board member.

[564] And so I just started doing this.

[565] And basically if students are having an issue with substances or drinking, especially these days with a vape pen and stuff they can do like during school, it's incredible.

[566] Like for me, I was definitely drinking and smoking weed in high school.

[567] My bad habits, I'm sure, started there.

[568] And you don't learn as much when you're not sober and your brain doesn't develop the same way.

[569] I wish this would have been here for me too.

[570] Because even if these kids leave high school, and they drink in college again or whatever.

[571] At least they know it's there.

[572] They're exposed to relationships or sharing their feelings.

[573] And it's another safe place.

[574] A lot of what we do is fundraising because a lot of people come from homes where it's not something they can afford at all.

[575] And so like to be able to go there for free, you get a lot of foster kids.

[576] And I'm really grateful to get to be a part of that and see it growing because it's still small and we're still trying to get it bigger so that we can help more people because it is such a problem.

[577] I so appreciate that you shared that and I'd love to hear a little bit more about the nonprofit that you work with now.

[578] I kind of felt like what am I doing with my life and I would talk to my therapist about it and she's just like anything that brings you excitement or passion go for.

[579] So I kept seeing the name of this place and hearing about it.

[580] I finally just pulled the trigger and sent a message to be a volunteer.

[581] It's a domestic violence center and it's a one -stop shop, which I thought was so cool because where I'm from, it wasn't really like that.

[582] Like, there was a court advocate, but at least what I knew, there was nowhere for me to go.

[583] And I didn't know anything where I'm volunteering currently.

[584] Like, you could walk in the door, you could safety plan, you could get a protective order and we'll file it for you.

[585] A advocate will go with you to court.

[586] There's group therapy, there's counseling, there's a pantry where you can get a clothing, a court outfit.

[587] There's detectives in their building.

[588] You just go there and it's everything you need and you don't have to run around town.

[589] It's just such an amazing place, honestly.

[590] I love it so much.

[591] I've loved being there and I feel so honored that I'm even allowed to volunteer there.

[592] I wish I had something like that when I was going through all of this because I think it would have helped a lot.

[593] It's funded with grants and tax money.

[594] Those dollars just go so much further.

[595] I feel like the local law school, like they'll get some of their students to do like a free law day.

[596] And so they'll come over and anyone can show up and get help.

[597] You know, if they're dealing with something or different churches even, we'll do a volunteer drive.

[598] And it's really awesome to find a cause that you can directly see where it's going and how they're being helped that it's actually helping so many people.

[599] It's just a safe place.

[600] I know where they're coming from and that fear And so when they're calling and they're scared and they don't know what to do and we're going to help you and it's going to be okay and you can hear them exhale, it's been really healing for me as well.

[601] A lot of the people who work there or volunteer there have gone through situations and they're all different.

[602] But it's also sad because there's so many people that need help.

[603] And so you see just so many people come in the door every day and it's a huge problem, but you just have to be able to support people.

[604] these things used to be these huge secrets I would carry of that I'm sober and went to rehab or that I went through this domestic violence situation and stalking situation.

[605] And I can't tell anybody to going to these places and being in these environments where I can freely share it and not worry about.

[606] For instance, like in nursing, if I shared that I'm a drug addict, you lose your job or you get put on probation or people just watch you differently and treat you differently.

[607] whereas at these different places, I can just be me. It's been incredible to start this chapter of my life where I'm able to just be myself.

[608] There's this tax incentive.

[609] So in this one, they did basically like a cent tax or something, but it paid for this park.

[610] And we're going to get a new building.

[611] I think they're going to break ground in the next year, which is incredible because the building earns a disaster.

[612] Like the toilets are flooding every other day and there's gas leaks.

[613] It's really run down.

[614] so it'll be a lot better of a building easier for people like to get to off a bus stop, for instance.

[615] The first relationship after you go through something like this, and I feel like sometimes it's not touched on as much, I was probably not ready to date again or it just wasn't healed.

[616] I dated someone, I want to say like a year and a half relationship, and it was extremely difficult.

[617] I had huge trust issues.

[618] I was getting text messages and phone calls.

[619] I didn't tell them all the details, but every time I would get certain texts, it's like, you want to let the person know because they're kind of in the line of fire just by knowing you.

[620] That relationship did not work for a lot of reasons, but I also didn't know how to control my emotions and the stress that I had and was taking it out on him.

[621] With Joel, that relationship was just screaming and aggression and physical.

[622] I don't know, that got drilled into me that that was a relationship somehow, just even though it was so short that I took that to the next one.

[623] And so it's just like relearning how to have relationships with people and not looking at them like they're Joel or the guy who hurt you.

[624] It's really hard to trust people after something happens to you like this.

[625] That relationship ended.

[626] He was a great guy.

[627] And I'm honestly so grateful that I had him during this time.

[628] After that relationship ended, I moved to another state to be near my sister, and I got a job.

[629] I was there maybe a year.

[630] And then I met my current boyfriend.

[631] We just had our seven -year anniversary.

[632] It's been a journey through it.

[633] It was really hard still at the beginning.

[634] Like, I still had trust issues.

[635] And then this was overlapping with different times.

[636] Joel was released from prison.

[637] And so anytime, like, if he was released from prison or parole or whatever, it just would cause me to, like, go into these holes.

[638] It's almost like you freeze and you can't talk and it affects you so much.

[639] When he got out of prison, I had started with a new therapist and I purposely looked up someone who did EMDR and tapping.

[640] She's just the best.

[641] We would have these sessions and all this stuff was just coming up that I didn't remember.

[642] The mind's really crazy, how you black so much out.

[643] there's different ways I acted that you could trace back, basically.

[644] I'm still learning and growing.

[645] This current relationship, we moved a lot slower.

[646] I think we moved in together after like over three years.

[647] We worked through problems.

[648] The yelling was still something that I did at the beginning of the relationship.

[649] If I got in a fight with Joel, like it was this huge back and forth.

[650] I would yell at my current boyfriend and he just wouldn't even respond to it.

[651] He would, like, walk away and wouldn't have it.

[652] And basically, I'm not going to be with someone who treats me like this.

[653] So that was, like, what I'm doing is not okay.

[654] You can't treat people like that.

[655] And you can't just keep using the excuse of, well, I went through this horrible thing.

[656] And that's why I'm the way I am, this chain of abuse.

[657] I don't want that in my life.

[658] And I'm not going to have that in my life.

[659] And so fortunately, my current boyfriend, he's just so patient with me and learning.

[660] And he was able to, like, move past that with me. he saw I was doing the work.

[661] God, it took so long to feel like really, really secure.

[662] But once we got there, it's just a really awesome feeling.

[663] I'm so lucky that I'm with someone who appreciates everything about me and even the bad things about me. I just really appreciate how candid you are about the situation because we're imperfect as human beings.

[664] While there's never an excuse to abuse someone, we can still reflect on ourselves and the things that coexisted within that.

[665] But that's growing up, right?

[666] Right.

[667] And just so it never happens again, this has all taught me a lot.

[668] I know what I don't deserve from someone.

[669] And if anyone treats me any way like that, I have no problem leaving now.

[670] Over 10 years ago, I was a very, very different person.

[671] If I raise my voice at my boyfriend now, I feel very bad about it.

[672] I apologize.

[673] I talk to a therapist.

[674] I try to change.

[675] Whereas with Joel, he would be like, you made me angry because you did this or, well, you were texting this guy.

[676] Or you went to the casino and you act like you never even want to see me. And every time he did something, it was because of what I did.

[677] There was no owning it.

[678] It's really healing and there's been times I've heard things on your show where I've never felt like anyone's gone through that that I've gone through or everybody seems like they're so good and they never deserved it and there's things I did.

[679] And so to hear things similar, it's huge.

[680] If anyone could get anything out of it.

[681] The me that this happened to, I see her as this separate person almost, like this little girl who didn't know who she was.

[682] and was experimenting and growing and grieving and hurting and not comfortable, which a lot of people are going through and these things happen.

[683] You feel like you deserve it and you put yourself in the situation, but no one deserves to have someone else hurt them or follow them around or threaten them.

[684] Thank you so much for all of your time, energy, and your thoughtfulness, your bravery and your vulnerability sharing with my, myself and the podcast.

[685] Thank you.

[686] Next time, on something was wrong.

[687] Whenever Dad's in the picture, it's like when they open the door in horror movies and lightning strikes, that's what it was like whenever he would come home.

[688] We just hated being around him.

[689] She definitely didn't feel like she had choice, and she did try to leave.

[690] The theory is that she was packing up, trying to leave, and he didn't like that and he shot her.

[691] When she pulled me in the office, I think I was just, so broken.

[692] People had asked me before and I would just lie, but in that moment, like, I was done.

[693] Thank you so much for listening.

[694] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[695] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[696] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[697] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[698] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[699] Thank you so much.

[700] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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[702] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.