David Moyes Reveals The Truth About Managing The Worlds Greatest Teams

[0] They would be out screaming at you at half time.

[1] They'd be screaming you at the end of the game.

[2] What's the toll of that?

[3] David the Messiah voice.

[4] One of the best known football managers across the globe.

[5] Building teams with a clear identity.

[6] So where am I looking and who am I talking to?

[7] I was desperate to be successful as a manager and I had 11 years at Everton where we were finding it really difficult to break into the top four.

[8] The phone rang.

[9] It was Sir Alex.

[10] And he said, I'm retiring.

[11] And you're the next manager of man. Manchester United.

[12] No interview, not saying would you like to be.

[13] I met Edward on the next day.

[14] Back to his house again.

[15] We met the Glazers.

[16] It was three days.

[17] And that was as simple as that.

[18] To get that offer from the greatest manager, maybe they ever was, was a great compliment.

[19] But maybe if I'd really looked into it in more detail and more depth, there was a huge change going to have to take place.

[20] I trusted Manchester United.

[21] Do you feel like that trust was let down?

[22] Definitely.

[23] But my biggest regret was...

[24] We start with the story that has dominated the...

[25] front pages, the sacking of David Moyes.

[26] How did you find out that you're losing your job?

[27] Media.

[28] Oh, really?

[29] If you've got any class or any style, you have to give bad news well.

[30] What are those steps forward to get West Ham competing at the very top of the table?

[31] I want to build a new West Ham.

[32] A lot of supporters might not like the thought of that.

[33] When you look at where West Ham is now, do you worry about losing your job?

[34] I've got to say it.

[35] David, take me back to the context that I'm.

[36] I need to understand in order to understand you.

[37] Take me back to Glasgow, 1960s.

[38] Yes.

[39] I was in a really good family who were really important and you'll probably hear me talking a lot about it now.

[40] But we were a family who we stayed in the west end of Glasgow in a tournament building.

[41] And we used to have to go up the tournament.

[42] And the people who don't know what a tournament is.

[43] A the tournament.

[44] And they were never in Glasgow at that time very, very good to look at people look down on them a little bit.

[45] But it was a great upbringing for me. It allowed me to play my football out in the street, which at that time was something which everybody considered, you know, street footballers, everybody played football on the street.

[46] And everybody in Glasgow did play football on the street, played in the park.

[47] So I started in Glasgow in the West End, and that was probably where me and my family grew up.

[48] Your father's also.

[49] You also called David.

[50] He certainly is, yeah.

[51] What did he do for a living?

[52] And how did that influence?

[53] Well, this is probably, it's a really good question to me for me is because my dad actually was a teacher, but he worked in the shipyards in Glasgow, which was really important.

[54] So he worked as a shipbuilder, and then he went on to become a teacher in a college.

[55] But meanwhile, what he'd done in his part of his other job was that he was an amateur football manager.

[56] And there was a very famous boys club team in Glasgow called Drum Chapel Amateurs, which was very famous.

[57] And really, as all my memories come with my dad running one of the teams at Drum Chapel Amateurs.

[58] Now, for the people who don't know, there's people like Sir Alex Ferguson played for Drum Chapel Amateurs.

[59] There was people like Asa Hartford played for Drum Chapel Amateurs.

[60] John Wart was a Scottish international.

[61] So it was a very, very famous boys club.

[62] My dad also ran the college where he teach my dad was a teacher at Anisland College which was a college in Glasgow and he took the team every Saturday morning and then he took the amateur football team every Saturday afternoon you got to remember this was all as well there was no money involved in this so really part of my life was seeing my dad grow up as a football manager for amateurs but meanwhile his real job was that he was a teacher at Tanishland College did that make you want to pursue that as a career at that time?

[63] Or what kind of influence has that had on you in hindsight?

[64] Well, I think when I look back now, I'd say to it, I think your parents have huge influence in everything you do for different reasons.

[65] Mine definitely did.

[66] But I don't think when you're growing up as a boy, you're thinking that, you know, I'm going to be influenced too much by my dad or my mum.

[67] You don't think that until you get a bit older yourself.

[68] And when you look back, you go, wow, I can't believe that I'm quite similar to my dad.

[69] Or I can't believe that I followed my mum and going back to that my mum was part of it as well my mum had to wash the strips and hang them up outside and then she'd have to wash them and she'd wash them and iron them and I'd be folding them and putting her away so probably from a really young boy I was watching my dad and my mum help young boys at that time you know for Phil go for a game of football hopefully they were all hoping to going to become professional footballers but if not try and be successful playing for the boys' team in Glasgow at that time.

[70] One of the things we do tend to pick up from our parents, from what I've seen, and I certainly did myself, was I guess, like, principles and values of, like, how to approach life and how to deal with life, what were those principles and values that your parents imparted on you directly or indirectly from observation about life and how to deal with it and how to confront it?

[71] Well, I think your parents will always influence you in some way.

[72] I was sent to church, when I was younger so I went to church a lot of people were and I think that probably had an influence as well in its own way in the early days but I think more to do with schooling more to do with education and what they tried to do and to be fair none of them I was never pushed on anything I was never pushed to know to be that well educated I was never pushed that to be a great football player they were just encouraging really and always there to support.

[73] So I had parents who really let me grow up the way, the way I chose to do so, but everything was guided by them, you know, respect, no trust, you know, trying to be truthful all the time.

[74] All those things, I think, come into a good relationship.

[75] Did you ever have a, you kind of suggested there that they weren't necessarily like pushy parents necessarily, but did you ever have any idea of what career or aspiration would make them proud?

[76] If I'd asked you, You know, what does your mum or dad want you to be when you're older, when you were younger?

[77] What would you have said?

[78] I think my dad would have definitely said, I hope you're a footballer.

[79] You know, I think that would.

[80] I think my dad would have always probably thought that he'd a great love of football as well.

[81] But I think they were always really supportive in anything I wanted to do.

[82] But I think, you know, as I got on and I got to an age where I was starting to get closer or 12 or 13, I think football was probably with my biggest sort of love and what I wanted to do and I was more interested in either watching football playing football and that was probably they probably saw that around about that age as well and is it sort of 12 12 years old you were in Celtic's youth system yeah it was what it was is that at times Celtic had a boys club and you have to remember my dad also as I said ran a very very famous boys team or one of the teams in Glasgow and Drum Chapel Amateurs or so, but I went to Celtic Boys' Club and I played with Celtic Boys' Cup from I was about 12 to 16 until I went on but they were brilliant years I had there you know the my time at Celtic which you know came after as a player and as a you know a senior professional, not a senior professional but a professional I should say but the young period when I was at Celtic Boys Club was I can only remember being winning things and being really successful in, you know, representing, you know, Glasgow schools as a schoolboy, representing Scotland schools as a schoolboy international.

[83] So I had really, really good days in the early days probably from 14, 15 onwards.

[84] Did you, if I'd asked you, even at that age, so say when you were 16, if I'd asked you about your ambitions in football, what would you have responded with?

[85] I hope that I might have been good enough to become a player.

[86] I'm not sure I would be.

[87] And I would love to be involved in football.

[88] I always used to think that, you know, I'm hoping that maybe I could run an amateur team or I could be involved.

[89] I could maybe, might be good enough to take a junior team, you know, might be paid a little bit of money.

[90] You know, maybe I'd become a youth team coach for somebody if, you know, if I wasn't going to be a football player.

[91] I always thought even at that time when we were growing up, there's lots of youth clubs, you know, so we would go to a school youth club, you know, because we would go to a school youth club, you It was where you would get a game of table tennis, you'd play pool, you know, the gym might be there, and you'd play five -aside football, no, whoever was there.

[92] So I always thought, well, maybe, you might be able to work in a youth club or something if I didn't get in more, better than that.

[93] So those early days, there was no guarantee that you were going to go and to become a footballer.

[94] Every boy really wanted to become a footballer.

[95] What did you learn from your dad as a manager?

[96] Is there anything even today where you think, I think I've got that from my dad or that trait or that...

[97] Yeah.

[98] Planning.

[99] Yeah.

[100] organization, commitment.

[101] And if I just started planning, you know, at that time, there was no mobile phones then, so it was the phone.

[102] So he'd be phoning all the players to say, look, we're playing on Saturday, I want you to meet at 12 .30.

[103] We're meeting wherever it was.

[104] And at that time, they all had to come at times with the same, with their shirt and tie on.

[105] They had to bring a bag.

[106] You know, they all had to come with the same bag.

[107] Shirt and tie.

[108] You've got to remember, this is Glasgow in a time when, you know, people were, but people had to turn up with collar and tie on.

[109] If you didn't turn up with your collar and tie on, you might not get selected for a game.

[110] So small things like this, if you're talking about maybe disciplines or ways you were brought up, I think possibly I picked up a lot of the traits probably early on.

[111] Why does that matter?

[112] Why do the small things matter, shirt and tie?

[113] Do you think they matter, I guess, is another question?

[114] Yeah, I do.

[115] I think they really do matter.

[116] I think sometimes they mean, and I have to say, if you jumped on to this, my senior time, I think they've always looked better.

[117] I think people have always looked better if they dress well and they're correct, they look prepared for the games.

[118] I jumped to Manchester United just quickly and say, you know, Manchester United had a rule which Sir Alex had that they would always turn up for away games and shirt and ties.

[119] Now, most teams would rather turn up the tracks so the players can come, more casual.

[120] But Manchester United always turned up with a shirt and tie on, which I thought was a great thing because they wanted to show what they were.

[121] wanted to come out there and say look the way we direct look the way we approach it you look at this is manchester united here and i've got to say i really admired admired that part of it's interesting it's an interesting small psychological advantage isn't it to some degree if i guess it's a statement of professionalism and attention to detail before the before the ball's even kicked it is and uh you know so that that takes me back so you're saying is no maybe sir Alex who played with from Chappal Amateurs.

[122] Maybe he'd picked it up from his time at from Chappal Amateurs you know the way they had to turn up with shutting ties on and they had a blazer on and again this was just an amateur football team in Glasgow.

[123] You played with many, many clubs over your almost 600 career games across a variety of different divisions.

[124] That time working as a player across multiple clubs and multiple divisions.

[125] What did that teach you?

[126] It's always useful to get a variety of different experiences so that you can kind of create your own perspective on the world.

[127] But what did that teach you those 600 games as a player?

[128] What are the fundamentals?

[129] The fundamentals were I learned so much.

[130] But my early days when I started at Celtic was probably engraved in me more than anything because Celtic had an incredible tradition of winning.

[131] Now obviously Celtic had to win with style as well.

[132] Celtic were the biggest club with Rangers in Glasgow in Scotland I should say and because of that Celtic had to win was always so important so oh no I could see that it was the first team there was the reserves there was the youth team and all the managers were under pressure to win then if you did win then it was and what was the score you won one nothing that's not good enough you need to win you need to win three or four nothing you need to win buy more goals and how did you play we didn't play that well we scored a known was a scarpie, not good enough, you have to win with style.

[133] So I think my early days, I was brought up with brilliant footballers, people who showed me, I don't know if you want to call it a philosophy, because philosophy might be much deeper and might offer much more, but it gave me something like I had to say, well, I have to win, I have to find a way of winning.

[134] You know, if I can win with style, that's even better, but more importantly, I have to find a way of winning.

[135] And I picked that up probably from my early days at Celtic, and I wasn't there that long.

[136] Not that I wasn't there that long, but I wasn't there that long probably as a senior player.

[137] I moved on and ended up bobbing round the championship in a couple of the lower leagues in England for a long time.

[138] But I come across some really great managers.

[139] I come across someone which weren't so good.

[140] But, you know, I always try to be respectful to anything because that came from my background and my upbringing.

[141] But I also was trying to pick up everything I couldn't.

[142] When I was 20, I had already qualified as a full -time, full A -license coach at the time.

[143] You know, to be a coach, you had to have an A -license that was called.

[144] Now you have to have a pro -license, but you have to have to, it was an A -license.

[145] I'd qualified as a coach when I was 20, 21, which was unusual.

[146] And the reason I'd done that was because the coaching courses were obviously full of really experienced managers full of really lots of players trying to get into management the only reason i went and done it was hoping that would become a better player i thought that if i went on these coaching courses it'll help me become even better as a player and i had a i had a really good career but not quite at the elite level which i really wanted to be whose idea was that to go and do a coaching course at 20 years old to improve yourself as a player my own because I thought that maybe I'd find out more about it but I have to say there was a thing when we were young players we were when we were 16 bit Celtic we were sent to the courses to help the coaches so we were called the runners so we were down there to do all the running you know you had to do all the running you had to be a field back you had to be a midfield player and all the practices were put on for the coaches and no Scotland had great great at the time, you know, people like Sir Alex, Jim McLean, you know, Walter Smith, you know, I could go on and on Scotland had brilliant coaches without naming the likes of Jock Steen and, you know, Bill Shankley and you could go on and on, George Graham, for example.

[147] So I was sent down by Celtic and I was one of the runners for a couple of years.

[148] And once I was down, I said, oh, I want more of this, I want to be around football people.

[149] I loved to listen to them.

[150] I hoped that I would impress some of them who were managers of really big.

[151] clubs at the time.

[152] And that's what I thought, well, no, I'm going to go and do my badges myself and went on to, went on to do them in Scotland.

[153] Well, your time at Celtic in the first team, when you got signed there, was three years, right, you were in Celtic?

[154] Yeah, yeah.

[155] You then got to experience other cultures and clubs, but you cite Celtic as having that sort of winning mentality that some clubs just have where they're almost, you know, they're just, they get used to, like, develop the habit of winning.

[156] Throughout your career, you've been in clubs that have the habit of winning, but also clubs that maybe have struggled in the opposite direction and don't have that culture of we always win every game.

[157] When you think about the clubs you've worked in that have that habit of winning like Celtic did, what is that?

[158] Where does that come from?

[159] And what does it look like and feel like?

[160] It looks like you walk in every morning with your chest out and your head high and you're sort of confident in what you're doing.

[161] There's a motivation to keep it going not to let it drop there's something about having to continue to improve to stay at the top that you can't just do what you're doing which is going to keep you there forever you have to keep trying to find a way of doing so I did see that and I feel that and I've seen it at other clubs since but I have to say I think on the journey to probably where I'm today is probably more that seeing a lot of the other side as well is actually the bit which you know I've been at clubs where I've been getting relegated I've been at clubs where I can't win I've been at clubs where you know it's not going well I've been at clubs where there's you know it's it's not been as powerful as say a club at Celtic so I think I think you have to see it all round for you to give yourself the best chance and I keep saying is you know to do to get to become a football manager I don't think there's any one plan you could be the best player on the planet and not become a football manager, you could be someone who's never played the game and become incredibly successful as a football manager.

[162] So I don't think there's necessarily one way you do it.

[163] I'm really intrigued by this idea of like cultures at clubs and within teams and how you can just feel it almost when a club has that momentum and they're winning team and when they don't.

[164] On the on the contrary then when we're thinking about teams that are struggling and that aren't performing well, what are the signs of that?

[165] Now Rio said something really interesting.

[166] Was it real?

[167] Was it Gary?

[168] Gary Neville said something interesting to me. He said that when he was at Manchester United, Sir Alex Ferguson only came into the dressing, training ground dressing room twice.

[169] And he said he never needed to come in there because the culture was in there.

[170] So if like when Burbatov came over and wasn't fit in the culture, the players would correct him.

[171] He then says when he went to QPR, when the manager left the changing room, everyone was talking about their wages and where they're going next.

[172] You can feel that like...

[173] Yeah, there is a difference.

[174] I actually think the culture, I mean, that team, you're talking about in Manchester City, we had incredible players and, you know, I wouldn't say self -made because they had a great manager, but if you look, now, if I move to just now, I'd be saying there's much more communication in life now.

[175] I came from background, it was really tough, the Scottish managers, you know, probably the working background we came from, they would be out screaming at you at half time, they'd be screaming you at the end of the game, you know, they would be, they would be after you if you didn't do well.

[176] I don't think that culture's there and I don't think, I think it's changed completely in Scottish managers.

[177] And if you look about Scottish managers probably over history, Scotland had lots of managers in the English Premier League, for example.

[178] Very few now.

[179] And it might be that we're having to change your culture.

[180] So going back to a little bit what you're talking about Rio said, getting in it there, I think there was a period where the players looked after themselves or they could take the hard -hitting hair dryer treatment if you want to call it that.

[181] Now I think it's a completely different culture now, whether we've changed or whether I feel as if management is not necessarily in that form.

[182] I don't think, I don't know, maybe you, Steve, you'd tell me even better, your head of businesses, would you go in and be screaming blue murder at your staff now?

[183] Do you know what?

[184] The thing, one of my, actually I think it's an advantage is I didn't grow up in that culture.

[185] Yes.

[186] So I've never known it.

[187] I've never known the prospect of like coming in, to work and like was you hear about it in some old businesses where like this year would come in and throw things and throw the table over and stuff yeah i just never grew up in that environment i grew up in a sort of a societal expectation that a manager is like you know might be tough and and sometimes but is fairly nice yeah there's no like big glass office that i sit in away from my team members it's different world these days what in as you relate you were talking about there you said that it's kind of a different world in management you've been in you know the job since you're i guess 20 in your early 20s you're 59 now I'm 59 and I've probably been in management since I was early 30s when I started and then so 25 30 years um you talk about the change that you've seen in the approach that is effective now what is effective now if if once upon a time Scottish managers could come in and hair dryer it and screen whatever whatever how is the approach changed in your view well let me tell you remember I remember one of the managers coming in to the dressing room and I always said is don't look up just look at the floor look at your boots look down because if you catch his eyes he's going to come for you so it used to be don't look up so that he couldn't have any eye contact with you and you had to you know and you'd probably put your head in the towel so that he couldn't see you and because that was the way it was it was that and I think that I probably had a lot of that in me when I first started but the difference now is I think we're in a different and maybe, maybe yourself and maybe you'll understand it's a different era.

[188] So as a coach and as a manager and as a man now I think you need to find a way of how you're moving on with that or you'd be left behind and I've got to say I think in my position I've got to admit I have to keep trying to keep up renew, invest in more work and find out how it's going on there's so many new things and don't get me wrong that doesn't mean that I've still not got the bit of anger in me when I think the players need it.

[189] And I actually think that I think they like it.

[190] I think sometimes they like it.

[191] I think people want to be told the truth.

[192] And I think one of the worst things you can do to people is is I think if you keep praising people all the time, I think it makes you soft as well.

[193] So I think there's a level of praise you can give people.

[194] But I think you've also got to be really tough with your praise as well.

[195] And I actually think that as I've got older, I've become better in giving praise.

[196] I think there's some of my players, I'm sure at Everton would say that I very rarely gave them praise because I was always looking for better from them.

[197] You know, over the last, I don't want to have been in business, what, 10 years or something, not as long as you in terms of management, but even I've started to notice some like warning signs in people.

[198] So like if I see this in the interview process, I go, well, I saw this before and then it ended in this way for like pattern recognition.

[199] You've talked a lot about, and I've read a lot about your scouting process, how you've find great talent, great players, what are the things you look for and the things that you consider to be warning signs?

[200] I always wanted someone who I thought was putting in effort.

[201] Okay.

[202] I always thought that, and they might say, well, how can that come in front of many other things?

[203] Well, I can think of many, probably you, and you'll think of plenty of schoolboys, friends who were really talented players, but maybe we weren't dedicated, didn't put in the effort to, didn't do the work.

[204] I think if you don't put the effort in the dedication to it then, And the other thing what I use a lot is, you know, if you don't love the game completely, then you'll probably find it really difficult.

[205] I think you'll find it really difficult to become a manager if you don't love the game with or have real longevity.

[206] I think you could be a player and maybe get through your career, 10, 15 years as a player with maybe without loving football.

[207] But I think if you want to go longer, I think you've badly got to love the business.

[208] When I became manager of Everton, but I did it before, I used to always meet the players.

[209] and I still do if I can.

[210] You nearly wanted to see their eyes to see I need you to work hard.

[211] I'm needing you to know to do this job for the team.

[212] I like to see are you going to take that I'm going to be critical of you and I want you to get better, are you happy with it?

[213] You nearly wanted to put the questions over to them to see if they were going to take it.

[214] Did you?

[215] I did, to many players.

[216] And I've got to say, we've had quite a few over the time which I've got to say, who I've had in my house, who have had in offices and we've probably not taken them sometimes because a bit like you said sometimes something just makes you go that's just not what I quite wanted to hear and that might only be a gut and it might not, it might have no reason some of the boys I'm talking about I've gone on to be superstars and play for other clubs but something at the moment can only give you that little bit of gut feeling if you think it sounds like it's going to fit for you and I'm not saying you get it right but I think at that time you have to be your own your own sort of things what you say no I'm not going to change this is what I want to do and I want to keep it this way and I some I've missed out on some how does that process work if you're looking let's say you're looking for a striker what's the process you know because we've heard so I don't mean my only understanding of like signing players is playing like football manager on the PlayStation or whatever but I have in my head you have all these scouts they produce reports And then do you know what position you want to fill?

[217] Do you go to the scout or what happens?

[218] I think you, in the main the scouts will probably bring them to you.

[219] I mean, like, if it's somebody playing for one of the teams locally are that and is available and you think there's a chance then you'll probably try and do your homework.

[220] You'll try and, you know, obviously statistically you'll try and get it right.

[221] You'll try and look at their strengths and weaknesses.

[222] You'll take into consideration maybe the price is going to cost, where you think it's, you know, where he fits in for you, what you can do.

[223] But the ones you don't know are what you're looking for your scouts to bring to you.

[224] And quite a lot in modern football, it's the agents who are bringing them.

[225] Because the agents are playing such a huge part.

[226] Whether you see it as a positive or a negative, they're playing such a huge part behind the scenes in football at the moment.

[227] And these people will bring it.

[228] Obviously, if you're trying to sell something, you're always going to talk it up.

[229] But in the end, you know, we would, or I would always try and get my scouts to go through it.

[230] They would probably say, yes, this is worth coming and look at it.

[231] Come in, we should, we'll go and set it.

[232] and we'll sit for a few hours watching if we wanted to take it even further then we would go into much further detail we'd eventually probably start trying to find out people who know the boy or has played with the boy and try and get a bit of his character background would try and find out more about you know is he the right type you know is he is he a good boy is he a good trainer is he going to be disruptive in the training I think all those things are really really part of it I don't think any I don't think any football manager wants people who are not going to fit in and work with it and I guess again I'll revert back to business probably you're the same and you don't want people who are not going to fit in with what you've got you want somebody who's going to come in and blend in and be part of it what was your best ever signing but I always say Nigel Martin assigned Nigel Martin the goalkeeper who was at Leeds United and he was on a free from Leeds United and we took him to Everton at the time and it's only because he was a free but not only that he was a great goalkeeper obviously he had been an England goalkeeper who was probably near at the end of the time but he gave me about four five years of stability but see when people talk about signing your best signing over the time of now being I've made that many signings I've got you know it would be it's really pretty shameful on me even to name one because I've got so many that I could say you don't have to I wouldn't ask you to name your worst signing, but where have you frequently got it wrong when signing players?

[233] No, what I think you do is I think it's the ones I've missed.

[234] The ones who you've said, no, I don't think he's quite good enough.

[235] I think I'm going to, I don't think I want it.

[236] And I've had hundreds of them.

[237] Who's the one you missed the most that?

[238] Well, just recently because we've been talking about it, you know, we've been Alvarez, who's just played for Argentine in the World Cup.

[239] you know was I brought in a new scout who says look you should go for Alvarez at River Plate and I watch them I watch say so very good really good technician I thought he he'd done so many good things as a centre of a bit I thought maybe not quite the one we want maybe didn't quite we had Mickey Antonio who had been doing very well I thought don't know if he's and you see sometimes the players change in six months but I have to say there's other other players like that who you don't take and don't go on to be a real success.

[240] But that one at the moment is just one because it was probably only a year ago where I decided, no, I don't think it's probably the one we're going to take.

[241] So same in business.

[242] No matter how many people you hire, it's always still guessing.

[243] And I was speaking to my friend Gary Vaynerchuk about this, who's hired about 5 ,000 people.

[244] And he said to me, he says, you know, I've been in this game for 30 years and I'm still just guessing.

[245] Because we can come up with all the principles and systems we want, but how someone, people change, but also how they present in an interview.

[246] can be drastically different to how they present in six months time when they're comfortable.

[247] You know what?

[248] It's really interesting, I'm asking you, I hear now, and I hear, because there's so many jobs change in our industry, you say, is how do you pick a good football coach now?

[249] How would you pick a football manager, whatever you want to?

[250] How would you pick a good football manager?

[251] What would give him the owners of the people who are doing it?

[252] How are they picking it?

[253] Because, again, what I said is, yes, of course, we can think of, some real special people who would be in that group.

[254] But if you're a lesser club trying to pick a new talent, you know, why would you get it?

[255] Has he got the drive?

[256] Has he got the energy?

[257] Has he got the love for the game to stay with it?

[258] Has he got an idea that he wants to go further and he's going to put the work in?

[259] It's really hard and sometimes you can't find him and I get the feeling it's the same in industry now as well.

[260] Yeah, yeah.

[261] I think the more I've hired, the more I've realized that it's just guessing, which I think people will be surprised at because people will think that you'll get progressively better or your confidence will it will grow.

[262] My confidence has actually fallen with experience.

[263] Yes.

[264] So what that means for me is that when I hire someone and I know it's not right, just very quickly have to make a decision because the worst thing is indecision, right?

[265] Wasting too long.

[266] That's it.

[267] We have the same situation we're talking about is we're buying players and we're spending a lot of money.

[268] like you are and then you're saying as and you're saying no but you can't do this but we don't think you can do that and at times maybe the older you get you would think this becomes easier it actually becomes harder the more you're in it because you've probably seen the good ones the bad ones yeah this is we followed this path to try and get a good one but not so good anymore we're going to follow another path so I've got to say hiring people and bringing them in is not an easy thing to do it's slightly different I guess in business because as the CEO I, in business, you usually get to make the decision about who you're hiring.

[269] I mean, sometimes, of course, managers at low levels make that decision.

[270] But in football, there's often a conversation that the board or the owner has stepped in and has told you who to sign and who to buy.

[271] Well, I think that's one of the things really in football where you would say, if an owner was going to do that, you'd say, no, come on, it's not right.

[272] It's part and parcel of football now.

[273] It's rife in football where a lot owners are making assignments instead of the manager.

[274] Has the owner of Ross you to sign a player?

[275] Yes, yeah, they have, yeah.

[276] What did you say to that?

[277] I've tried to say, I've said no to it, you know, and they've said, no, it's not the way I do the work.

[278] Now, if the players are good, I'd be seeing great, bring me them in.

[279] But then what we would do is if we get a name of a player, then we would try and do our homework and try and do other stuff.

[280] And by the way, we might be wrong.

[281] We're accepting that.

[282] But if we follow the correct process, or what we believe is the correct process, and it still comes out no we have to go with what we say now if the process says hey by the way we're hearing he's a good player scoring lots of goals he's young you know resellable if it doesn't work if all those other points come up then we're saying oh wait a minute maybe we have to think about it but I think really trusting your process in hoping that the longevity I've had will probably hope that you've made more right decisions than wrong decisions by the time you get around to make the final decision.

[283] I guess one of the things you can control, which doesn't have to be a guessing exercise, is the culture that they join.

[284] So if the culture that they join is good, then there's a higher chance of them being successful as a player as a new signing.

[285] I agree.

[286] How do you do that at the clubs you're managing now, West Ham?

[287] How have you done that in the past to make sure the culture is right?

[288] And what is that culture?

[289] Yeah.

[290] Well, I think for me the biggest one was when I was at West Ham the first time, we came and we thought we done a good job.

[291] And we kept the team up.

[292] We were asked to come in.

[293] We kept the team up and we didn't get the job and then another manager come in and we were out of work for a year.

[294] So then, to be fair, to the owner, David Sullivan, he phoned me of our company says, would you come in?

[295] I say, yeah, love to come back.

[296] No problem.

[297] I felt I had to do a bit more at West Ham or had to try.

[298] And I keep using it.

[299] And I say it opening.

[300] I want to build a new West Ham.

[301] So what does a new West Ham mean?

[302] But a lot of people, a lot of supporters might not like the thought of that but West Ham I've moved to a new stadium it's not been it's not been appreciated by everybody but that's what we're going to be it looks like for the next hundred years that's what it looks like the club's going to be there so we need to make the best we possibly can of it you know I want to change the cut I want there to be lots of young kids company West Ham East End of London's a huge area full of West Ham supporters a lot of poverty in the area West Ham offer great ticket prices, great opportunities.

[303] They do brilliant work in the community, West Ham and East End of London.

[304] They really do.

[305] And I want it to encourage all the young kids.

[306] Now what do you need?

[307] You need exciting players so that the young kids want to buy a jersey so that they're not falling the top two or three teams in the country and you want them to come.

[308] So I've tried to change the team.

[309] But you know, deep down I'd really like to say, I'm trying to make West Ham better.

[310] And it used to always do it.

[311] Other people, and I was a manager at Ever and I was manager at Man United and other clubs, folk would say, ah, you get a flaky West Ham, you know, they're not that reliable and you don't know what West Ham team's going to turn up.

[312] Well, I want to change that culture.

[313] There's so much room for improvement at West Ham.

[314] You know, I think it's got great potential to improve.

[315] And I hope that you get, I get the opportunity to keep it going we've had a couple of really, really good years.

[316] Success for West Ham.

[317] It's been success.

[318] And it's how we continue that success, now, how we build on it.

[319] And I think if you're in business, I think you'll accept it.

[320] You know, quite often you have a couple of years or a good year, and then you might not have it quite so good because of what I'm.

[321] We're a little bit like that at the moment.

[322] So I'm hoping that culturally, I think we have changed.

[323] I think we've changed a load of things at West Ham.

[324] we're not we're not milky we're not flaky I think there's a different atmosphere in the East End of London regarding how people see West Ham I like the way we've done it but we've also got some exciting really exciting young players who those young supporters I talked about could follow what are those next steps then if you reflect back on what you did at Everton you took them from being that kind of you know happy to survive club to in your last I think in your last eight years you finished in the top you last seven years you finish in the top one of the two you last eight years you finish in the top eight seven times or something along those lines they became a consistent competitive team at the top end of the table when you look at where West Ham is now as we sit here now 16th in the table what are those but after two amazing years in the two previous years where West Ham were absolutely fireworks to be fair dangerous very very very dangerous team to play against.

[325] I'm not Manchester United fan, so I remember the last two years have been really, really incredible for West Ham.

[326] What are those steps forward now to get West Ham to being that team that is competing at the very top of the table?

[327] And it's find it so interesting that in fact, when you answer this question, you don't just think, oh, we need to buy more more of a holistic, wide, a broader job that needs to be done.

[328] Yeah, I actually think that we bought our players and I think that you know, I've gone out there and said, this is what I'm doing.

[329] But I think I sometimes I think in football not that you need to break it but we had a really good team for the last two years but we had a few Mark Noble was coming to them one or two other players were coming to them we had to change and we were actually short of numbers we were really short the players have done on I felt as if I nearly had to break it up a little bit because I had seen signs now my experience my longevity was telling me if I don't do this now then I'm going to feel I'm going to be caught out now we probably didn't do quite as well from January on last year that was my feeling we had some brilliant nights we got to semi -final European football no we'd been challenging all years I mean we in the last game of the season we finished seventh but we were ten minutes away from finishing sixth above Manchester United you know so the margins were incredibly small and all this but I felt that now with the age I'm the only saying is I don't really give a shit now I've got to say I'm not going to get many more goes at this so if I don't make a go to it and I don't really do what I think is right and what I want to do then I'll regret it so there's part of me said yeah we had to bring in new players and we've gone out and we've put our head on the block and said here we go brought these new players in now what I really need is hope that I can get a little bit time to settle and get them settled in I think we're brought in good players I think we have got a better squad maybe not a better team at this exact time than what we had last year but we've definitely got better players which I believe will show that in the coming months.

[330] Do you worry about that losing your job?

[331] Is that something that like sits in my business I mean other than when I was at social and I had a board of directors we're a public company so technically they could fire me it's not something that I think about like if I'm if I perform badly as an executive the company goes down so there's no one that's going to That's right.

[332] You know what I'd say is, I think as a young manager, I worried much more.

[333] Yeah.

[334] I think now in the position I'm in now and where I'm going, I worry far, far less because it's in my blood.

[335] I love the game.

[336] I want to be here.

[337] I'm enjoying what I'm doing.

[338] But it wouldn't be the end of the earth if something went wrong for me now, where I'm at.

[339] But my pride, my determination is that I want to be successful and I want to do a really good job for West Ham.

[340] So, but I think when you're younger, if you look now at young managers, young managers find it very difficult.

[341] If you don't do well in your first job, maybe like business, you know, in business, maybe you have a goal and something fails, nothing quite work.

[342] You're nearly tentative to think I could go again, maybe nobody will help invest with me, whatever it may be.

[343] So it's so important you do get it right when you do go in.

[344] But going back to, if I just have to, because I want to do, I think you need people who are really supportive at the start.

[345] I had a great owner at Preston, North End, a couple of great owners who really supported me. When I went to West Ham, I had great men who helped me at that time as well.

[346] And I think sometimes you need to be a bit lucky on your journey.

[347] You know, if you turn up at a club where an owner's making the signings or you're not there, he's only going to give you half a dozen games date to show what you can do, you're probably going to find it.

[348] It's going to be very difficult to succeed.

[349] So maybe a bit lucky at the start.

[350] But I worried much more when I was younger than I would do now.

[351] That success that you want the time to achieve at West Ham, what is that success?

[352] What is the goal for West Ham?

[353] If we sat here in, you know, let's say 10 years, five years time.

[354] That's too long in football these days.

[355] Five years time.

[356] What's the goal?

[357] I think we've been successful.

[358] Yeah.

[359] I think West Ham have been successful in the last two years.

[360] And what you might, you know, really the ones who are the, the great winners and the serial winners are the ones who wants to get a bit of success all they want is more of it I'd love to be sitting here in bringing my trophies in here in front of you and putting them up and saying here look at these trophies I've not got that what have I got periods of success my teams have done well we've got to Europe you know got to a cup final here and there we've got to semi -finals so not everybody in the industry can have success not everybody can you know be walking about with their medals and at the moment I haven't not, but I still believe there's still a big chance that I can do that.

[361] Is that your KPI of success?

[362] Is that what you...

[363] No, it's probably not now.

[364] It's not now because I actually think staying in the job wouldn't be a bit.

[365] Longevity is a really important thing in any work if you can stay in it and you can...

[366] No, it's a big thing.

[367] It's shown that you've done a good enough job.

[368] But, you know, I've had a cut.

[369] I've been forced enough with a few manager the year awards over the years, you know, the last few years have been nominated for it.

[370] But I've said many things.

[371] times, I'd swap it for one of Josie Marino's lemon medals if I got the chance, you know, or won these trophies all day long.

[372] So that's still got to be what I'm driving to do.

[373] Now, well, not gone forever because I'm getting older and I don't want to be as old as Sir Alex or Roy Hodgson when they finish those sort of people.

[374] But I've still got the energy, I've still got the drive.

[375] I feel as if I've got a good team and I feel as if I'm still capable of keeping up with those younger ones.

[376] Sir Alex.

[377] Sir Alex There's been a lot said about Sir Alex I talk about him a lot because I've interviewed so many of his former players There was a lot of rumours that he went to your house and asked you to become the manager of Manchester United No he took me to his house Oh he took you to his house Yeah And actually I'll tell you the story Steve It wasn't long after I turned 50 And my wife had bought me a watch And actually we had gone through to Manchester To the jurors I needed to get a link to taking out and it was actually in Alteringham by all places I was in alteringham and the phone rang and it was it was Sir Alex and I saw the way I says oh bloody hell it's Alex on the phone and I thought oh he's gonna he's gonna want one of my players or he's gonna want me to take one of his players what's know he's coming on to say something and he and he said where are you I says I'm in Manchester he says well right come out to the house when you're ready will you I said and that's a poor Sir Alex accent probably so don't and I say the wife I can't do it I'm in my jeans I couldn't go to Sir Alex with a pair of jeans on it's no way so I'm saying oh what am I going to do I go down to Marks and Spencer's and buy a pair of trousers before I go to Sir Alex you know so she's saying I can't, where you go, just go and get on, wait, and do it.

[378] So anyway, drop my wife off at the shopping centre, and I drove out to Sir Alex's house, and I went in, and he says, then you come.

[379] And, very nice house, and he's got a lovely sort of room, sports room up the stairs, and he says, he went a cup of tea, he says, I took it up a cup of tea, and he said, I'm retiring, and you're the next manager of Manchester United.

[380] No interview.

[381] you.

[382] No telling me. Not saying would you like to be.

[383] No, I'm retiring and I nearly slipped down.

[384] It was a letter so I nearly slipped down because obviously that was nobody knew that Sir Alex was retiring.

[385] Nobody knew, no, nobody even suggested.

[386] I thought about it.

[387] And I nearly slipped down when I heard them say that.

[388] And then he says, and you're the next manager of Manchester United.

[389] And I just sort of went, yeah, well, no, okay, I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to turn around it.

[390] I didn't think I would ever say no or I don't even know I was in a position to say no and that was as simple as that we got underway he said and there was only maybe and to be fair there was only four weeks to go to the end of the season maybe five weeks to go to the end of the season I was coming out of contract to Everton and I was really wanting to be respectful to them and actually my next game was against Liverpool on the Sunday I think I met Sir Alex in the midweek on the Wednesday or something on the Sunday.

[391] And I knew that if we had got a draw with Liverpool, we would probably finish above them in the league.

[392] And it was at Anfield and we did, we got a draw up, and we did finish above them.

[393] So it didn't have any effect on what I was doing at Everton.

[394] But the big thing was to say, and then the next day he said, I want you come back to my house tomorrow.

[395] Ed Wood was going to come and see.

[396] He's going to be the new chief executive who, he says, David Gill's leaving as well.

[397] That was it.

[398] And I met Edward will the next day and then the next day back to his house again and we met the glazers and so it was three days three days where I dropped back to his house the biggest problem I had was he said and you can't tell him about me retiring he says nobody knows no problem he says tell your wife but nobody so I couldn't tell my kids I couldn't tell my dad I couldn't tell my dad that I was going to get the job or was getting the job so that for me was how it happened and when I look back now to get that offer from probably arguably the greatest manager maybe they ever was was a great compliment but maybe if I'd really looked into in more detail and more depth and I was desperate to be successful as a manager and I had 11 years at Everton where we said we'd wouldn't say we'd the glass ceiling but we were finding it really difficult to break into the top four the competition and the money it was required but my biggest regret was uh i was so close to bill kenwright the owner of everton and i and i couldn't tell him and it felt and it was really bad that i couldn't tell him because i was so close to bill but i couldn't break my word with sir alex said he didn't want me to tell it so i couldn't tell md about my wife so jump back in the car drove back to the shopping mall shopping centre got the wife put her in the car and I say I'm the new manager of Man United and she was like you go piss off your talk rubbish you know so that was it and that was how it went you were coming to the end of your contract with Everton at the time what was your plan you hadn't signed a contract so you must have been thinking I had I have to say as I had been I think my plan was probably to stay at Evan we just hadn't got it done for different reasons I was wanting to see how it was going but I have to say I'd met a couple other clubs I'd met a couple of really big clubs who had approached me and phoned me and spoke to me what was I doing and would I be interested the truth is I don't think I'd have left for any of them because Everton had been so good to me but I was also wary about overstaying you're welcome at Everton you know sometimes just in management supporters want change they want to try something different and I get it I'm a huge football supporter if I wasn't managing I'd be watching football and I'd be you know probably talking about it like everybody else does but I you know it came up I've got a chance to manage it's probably the biggest club in the world I'm following a club who always give their managers time They gave Sir Alex time.

[399] And also that, their values were, no, they played young players, Man United.

[400] I always thought Man United never went out and tried to buy the best on the market.

[401] They never went to the sort of designer shop to buy the best thing in the designer shop.

[402] They bought correctly.

[403] They bought young players.

[404] They bought, you know, you look at the players they had, which they come through from Bex and the Nevels and all the other ones who came through.

[405] They always had something about a bit of style about them.

[406] They never went out to get the best overseas manager in the world.

[407] They picked which fitted their model.

[408] So I actually felt when Sir Alex offered me the job and Manchester United were giving me the job, I felt they thought I must have been the best choice for the job at that time.

[409] And they saw that.

[410] And also maybe not similar, but similar in a way that maybe there was a similar background, a similar upbringing, a similar route maybe to get to the point.

[411] So I trusted Manchester United.

[412] I really did.

[413] I trusted them because of what, they stood for as a football club.

[414] You know, many times when you're successful as you were at Everton, you're giving big opportunities.

[415] It's the same in business.

[416] People come to me and give me these huge opportunities and sometimes like the bright lights of the opportunity have often caused me to make a wrong decision or not to take the right amount of due diligence, as you described.

[417] They're like not really looking into the details because it's such a big thing that you almost can't say no to it.

[418] You said there that you wish you'd looked a little bit closer at the details.

[419] What do you mean by that?

[420] well tell you who told me was Howard Wilkinson said to me down the line I wish you'd told me before he says all the managers who have had a dynasty so when you look at it I think it was Brian Clough was one of them I think the other one was Sir Bobby Robson all the managers who had the real dynasty I'm trying to think League United manager as well Don Ravy maybe as well I think it was empty who followed them never worked now I never even thought for a minute because I thought to myself I'll come in and I actually was thinking I'm not changing I'm going to try not to change much with Sir Alex and of course I have to change it it's not Sir Alex it's me and I have to do it my way and I have to try and do it a little bit but ultimately I was going to keep it going but then when I look back at the things what I heard I thought my goodness if I'd looked a bit closer and maybe even now I'm a bit older now than I was when I got the job maybe maybe maybe even I needed even more experience than maybe even I had it at that point maybe we'd be more ready at this period in my career than I was even say no I don't know what it was eight or nine years ago whenever it was so if they called you now well they've got a really good manager and I think and I think the thing about Manchester United Manchester United have chosen incredibly good managers probably some of the best managers some of the best managers you could ever imagine or been at Manchester United so you know sometimes you've got to say you know if you're quite bright I'm sure you are with the business you're working it's not always the bossy's fault that this doesn't this doesn't go right so like I took over at a difficult time you know it was quite a few senior players probably coming to near the end of their time but I also have to say I was really proud that I took over the Champions England when that was the time and that was I'm saying what a chance I've got, you know, maybe the opportunity to win trophies, the opportunity to be successful.

[421] And it was the thing I was probably missing from my time of Everton.

[422] That wasn't quite getting close enough to winning trophies.

[423] Would you, would you, Eric Ten Hogg aside, I think he's great.

[424] I think we both agree there.

[425] But would you ever be open to coming back to Manchester United in the future if they'd asked.

[426] Well, I don't think it would ever be, it would ever be in a role as a manager, that's for sure.

[427] So my time's gone.

[428] But, you know, if ever, I always love to be involved in football.

[429] And hopefully somewhere along the line, someone will want to use my experience with my time's up with being a football manager.

[430] But Manchester United is a great experience.

[431] And I found it difficult to sort of have something which could sort of, I don't know, how I would sort of put over what it meant.

[432] And the only way I could put it out is I think when you manage Man United, it's like living in the penthouse and looking out.

[433] You know, and until you've had the penthouse and you're looking out and you're above everybody and you're looking over, you see the view much.

[434] better in for me, they were the penthouse.

[435] One of the big things that did change at Manchester United, and I only know this because I had a season ticket, the ladies and the men that serve you the food in like the hospitality suite or whatever, they always have a great relationship with them and they would tell me things about how the club was, maybe before I had enough money to buy a season ticket.

[436] One of the things they always said was the role that David Gill had on the club as well.

[437] People don't think, understand that enough, but David Gill was the CEO of the club.

[438] And, I mean, I've seen in my own businesses when the CEO me was removed how much it was a completely different place and people don't understand that because as fans we look at the manager and think ah but if the managers in my business are very very very very important but the person above them that has the most power and the most control and the most sway is the CEO now that changed and the the wonderful people at Manchester United would tell me that when David Gill was here he knew all of our names and that really struck me that he knew all of our names he knew all of our birthdays we used to see him now we don't see Edward Wood anymore.

[439] We don't see the chief executives anymore.

[440] They don't know our names.

[441] That's a real sign of a cultural change.

[442] Definitely.

[443] Do you think of the values what that is?

[444] Yeah.

[445] The values of the CEO sending you a birthday card or doing that.

[446] And I mean, I would be incredibly complimentary about Sir Alex.

[447] Sir Alex would phone up managers who had lost a job or managers who had been successful.

[448] He phoned me up when we were doing very well at West Ham six months ago whenever it was they were always correcting and when you think of values of what it means to be at the top and what the small things which matter those things really matter but for me I was taking over the club I'd lost David Gill who I knew very well from different things and working with them at UEFA and different things as well and he was a huge huge miss but that wasn't to say that the new CEO wasn't he was to be given every chance and I wanted to help him and he wanted to help me. Ultimately, it didn't work that way.

[449] You said you trusted the club to give you long enough.

[450] Do you feel like that trust was let down?

[451] How do you feel about that?

[452] Yeah, I do a bit because I feel that, you know, I think that if you're putting in a new manager, you're hoping that you're going to give them.

[453] Look, I left a very stable job in a very good environment to come and do it.

[454] And obviously, no, I think when we look back, you would say, hey, there was a huge change going to have to take plays at Manchester United after Sir Alex and maybe ideally I think we were going to try and make it seamless where there wasn't going to be too big a change but there was a lot of players changing getting to an age where they were no having to move on there was actually a big squad of players who had been incredibly loyal to Sir Alex and suddenly they've got a new manager coming in the door maybe not playing them as much so they don't have quite the same sort of closeness to them and still building up relationship so I think there was a lot of that and it made it difficult.

[455] But, you know, the thing I look back at business and you're a very successful businessman, I always think you have to give bad news well because you're the boss and you run a really big business like Manchester United did.

[456] And I think if you've got any class or any style, it's good when you get offered the job and you give them when you give them all the, and you talk about all the time.

[457] but I think when you're having to give bad news out I think giving bad news has to be done in a good way as well and I felt the way that I was told at the time at Manchester United wasn't done as well as it should have been done but the way that you were told you weren't going to be manager yes I have you know there was there was ways it could have been done better and it could be made a lot easier than what it was now I've heard this from former players I've heard former players tell me that they were really disappointed by how the club, specifically Edward Wood, gave them their send -off.

[458] I think it was Rio that said to me that, like, just came into the dressing room, tapped me on the shoulder and told me that this was my last game or that they were selling me or something.

[459] And that doesn't pay respect to.

[460] No. It doesn't.

[461] And I actually think that, looking back now, hey, you think to yourself, hey, it's life, get on with it.

[462] You know, that's the way it is when you're in, you're in an industry or you do that.

[463] But I still think that, I think if you're the biggest, one of the biggest sport businesses in the world, if not the biggest, you would hope that you would do things correctly, like David Gill would say, speak and say hello to them, or like, they would send a birthday card.

[464] So the same should happen if you were telling somebody that you were stopping them or you were sacking them or you were getting rid of them.

[465] You would hope that they would do it the best way they could.

[466] How did you find out?

[467] Media.

[468] Oh, really?

[469] Media phoning me, yeah.

[470] It lost the game at Everton, actually.

[471] media we're saying I know you're losing your job and you know I tried to make contacts and say look why don't we meet up you think you're going to bit it didn't suit and before I knew they called me in the day after and by this time the whole world didn't know about it before I'd sort of get to know so sometimes I think people want to want to get it done right and I just didn't feel it was right but anyway from my point of view I generally don't have any real, I don't have a gripe about it because the industry I'm in means that this can happen quite often and you don't get things done the way you want it and you have to live with it and that's the way it is.

[472] In the wake of that, how does it look like at home?

[473] This is probably one of the most interesting things that I personally pondered throughout that period.

[474] I was a Manchester United fan, which is when you go from the penthouse and then the landlord evicts you from the penthouse after, I don't know, 10, 11 months at the club.

[475] The weight of Manchester United, you know, it's the most talked about club, it's the club that sells the headlines, it gets all the clicks.

[476] So it must feel like everything is about you in the world of football.

[477] And it's like a very public, apparent failure.

[478] At home, you've got wonderful wife, Pamela, you've got two kids.

[479] What's it like at home?

[480] I think personally, you're a little bit ashamed.

[481] because you've not done well.

[482] You know, you're not done well for your family.

[483] So I think personally I felt I'd let them all down because, you know, I had really worked.

[484] Like I said, you know, probably the hours and the work I'd put in as a young, I didn't believe I was ever going to be a coach, never mind the coach of Manchester United, but the hours of work I'd put in it got me to a level where I'd worked and I'd done an awful lot of hard work behind the scenes over the years and then to lose it so quickly.

[485] So you get a job.

[486] And I said at that time, I had two or three really, really big clubs who were talking about me and speaking to me. But when Sir Alex came and made me the offer, it was very hard to say no, and then for that to go very quickly.

[487] So it was a bit like getting to the top of Everest and then actually starting to decline very quickly.

[488] So from my point of view, it was hard going home.

[489] You know, it was difficult.

[490] But I've got to say, it's a bit like my mum used to just say, hey, whatever happens, you just have to get up and get on with it.

[491] you know, you got on with it, you take it in the chin and you got away and, you know, sort of sticks and stones, don't worry too much about it.

[492] But you're right, when you're managing of Manchester United, you're talked about in every continent, every country.

[493] You'll either be in the front of the back page, it's one of the papers.

[494] So, but that's also the privilege of being a manager of Manchester United as well.

[495] What's the toll of that?

[496] If you were to warn me about the toll.

[497] I think the toll for someone who cares deep, about their profession and wants to be successful and wants to do well, the toll for me personally at the time felt big.

[498] It really did.

[499] And it probably took me a wee bit to get back on the road a little bit without thinking about, I worked really, after I lost the job, I said, well, I'm going to have to go and try and reinvent, find out more new things, no, keep current, where can I go to find out what's going on?

[500] You know, and I obviously couldn't go back to Old Trafford to watch a game, or I couldn't really get back to Goodison and watch a game.

[501] So it made it quite difficult.

[502] But I found myself doing quite a bit of work for UEF.

[503] I'd done all the Champions League games, which was really good day.

[504] And I spoke in all the pro -license courses for the coaches, which kept me current and having to keep up to date with things.

[505] So those type of things kept me, kept my education and kept my knowledge and kept me going a bit.

[506] But I still think that when you've been at one, of the big clubs, it's always a miss because you realize the level they're at.

[507] You said the toll is big.

[508] In a very practical, real sense, what does that mean?

[509] Is it sleepless nights?

[510] It's anxiety, is it?

[511] Yeah, I'm someone who sleeps really well, to be honest.

[512] But I do think that it's very difficult when you lose your job.

[513] In our business, you know, you're talked about it a lot, so you have to accept it.

[514] And I'm part of it.

[515] You will be as well.

[516] Or if things go wrong or any of your business is, fail you'll be current people will have criticism but I think if you're going to go to football management then you have to find a way of saying how do I deal with it how am I coping with it what's my mechanism I remember thinking when things weren't going so well at Manchester United you know I'll be driving into training so I couldn't put on talk sport I couldn't put on radio two I couldn't put the word on so I thought I'll put on whatever music it was and they come on the news and they were talking about me on that news as well I thought oh my goodness is this ever going to end is there a channel that isn't talking about Manchester United in some way but that was because it was getting closer to probably when I wasn't doing so well and there's a lot of talk about it but I think you just have to find a way of shutting yourself off from it the best you can but the world we're in now for young coaches of social media if that's what your world is or how you present yourself it's much different now and in days gone by in the early days at Preston I'd look at the newspaper and there'd be a letter page and there'd be four or five supporters saying why is Moy's not playing him you know and what's he doing and that used to be where the criticism was mainly coming from as you well know now there's a world of it outside I am I got to play at the London Stadium Soccerade.

[517] It's called London Stadium, isn't it?

[518] Yeah, it's called the London Stadium.

[519] And I was a chat to Karen Brady once in a while.

[520] I'm seeing her soon.

[521] And I met someone while I was at the Soccerade experience who happens to be a family member of a player, a big Premier League player who has taken more abuse than any other player, maybe over the last year.

[522] And I met a family member and I got a chat to them.

[523] And they told me about the toll.

[524] It's taken on the whole family.

[525] And you never think about that.

[526] But that was actually one of the most important things I think I experienced was hearing from someone's younger sister, that watching that older brother be abused, how horrific is.

[527] She was almost in tears.

[528] Because, you know, if you were my dad and I watched that happen to you.

[529] Yeah.

[530] Well, I have to say, you know, and it's like, I don't think it was, I have, I had only a week after I lost a Man United job, my dad had a heart attack yeah and it was but it was a triple bypass so i'm not saying it was because of when i left manchester united but that was that was the case and it hey who knows who knows if it would end we we don't really think that was the reason behind it we think it was just coming on but so there there is tolls we get taken in families of course there is but thankfully my dad's doing well and still going well just now something we don't think about you know people will say to to you and people like you and football players, they'll say, well, you pay loads of money, so behave yourself, just deal with it.

[531] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[532] But that's, look, there is part of it.

[533] And actually, I do think many, many times I think myself is, you know, do people understand it?

[534] We'll get a family.

[535] You know, I made this the other day, as I was saying to a friend, I was saying as, as a manager, I think as you got older you, no, in business, you'll, you get older you, you think you get more experienced than you're, you know, it doesn't make it any better.

[536] When I was a young manager, if I lost the game, I would come home, go straight to my bed, pull the curtains, and not wake up to Sunday morning, no, try, and I might not sleep.

[537] I just didn't really want any.

[538] I didn't have any.

[539] I didn't really talk with my wife too much.

[540] I didn't really talk to my kids.

[541] I wasn't unpleasant.

[542] I just wanted to be on my own.

[543] Done that.

[544] The opposite then was if you won on a Saturday, I'd come home and say, come on, let's get ready, Let's nip up to the restaurant and we'll get a bit of dinner and a couple of glasses of wine.

[545] And I used to always call it the Saturday night feeling.

[546] I'm desperate to get that Saturday night feeling.

[547] I'm desperate to have that feeling when you've won on a Saturday, knowing that mainly the Sunday you're picking up the newspapers and the newspapers are saying you've won and you're going well.

[548] And I thought maybe by the time I get to the age in over a thousand games now, I'll be saying to myself, this is going to be much feel much easier.

[549] Not at all.

[550] Just as bad.

[551] I'm not saying I'm going home every night I lose now and pulling the curtains and going straight to bed, but it's to just sort of tell you how the game is.

[552] The game is actually nearly completely how important the winning and come back to, I said, what the upbringing was, where find a way a winning win means that I have more good Saturday night feelings than I do going home and pulling the curtains and going straight to bed.

[553] Yeah, I don't think about that.

[554] You know, when you said something a second ago, which is, you know, you'd reach, what I consider to be the very top of the game, managing Everton, because I think about how many tens of thousands of managers there are coaches out there that are, you know, on the Sunday League pitches and all around the country that are aspiring to manage in the Premier League.

[555] It's insane.

[556] It's an insane, insane achievement.

[557] You managed it evident.

[558] You went to Manchester United.

[559] It didn't go well.

[560] In that period after, even though you're at the very top of the game, did you doubt yourself in the post -Manchest United?

[561] by my pause might make you think yes but I didn't doubt that I was actually I felt that I could do the job I could be good at it I felt as if I could my work on the grass was good enough to for where I had been I had success the years before so I was always trying to say it didn't go quite well this 10 months why did it not go well was it how I managed was it how I coached was it maybe I didn't have the right players I had to try and look to see why there is.

[562] But the other part of the 10 or 11 years, I'd seen some great players.

[563] I had been in Effie Cup finals.

[564] I'd got to quarterfiners a European competition with Everton.

[565] We'd qualify for the Champions League one year.

[566] So I was thinking as well, was I going to make say that was all no good then the years we'd done it.

[567] So I think once I put it in perspective, then I says, no, I'm not doubting it.

[568] But what I do think is, I think most days you have to get up and be ready to sort of, challenge yourself every day I don't I don't think you can get out of bed every morning and think hey this is fine you know I'm I'm doing okay here I think every day you're sort of getting up and saying as you know how am I going to try and be better how can I make people better what my how can I make a difference today with what I've got paranoid almost yeah near enough near enough to an extent when you're saying is no I can't no you folk folk say do you bring your work home I really think if you're in if you're in the boss if you're the boss you're always bringing your work home because it's not, you're not just putting your head off and saying, I'm leaving that in the office and they'll pick it up in the morning.

[569] I think very rarely are you doing that.

[570] I think that's just life if you're, if you're a CEO or a boss.

[571] I very much agree.

[572] I very much agree with that idea of taking the work at.

[573] And also when things don't go wrong, in hindsight, everybody's quick to diagnose why I didn't go wrong.

[574] Has the subsequent 10 years where everyone has failed at Manchester United felt good?

[575] Because everyone has failed.

[576] Jose's failed.

[577] Van Halel.

[578] went there, you went there, I'm missing someone.

[579] I think I'm missing someone.

[580] I mean, Carrick had a stint.

[581] Ollie was in it.

[582] Ollie was in.

[583] He failed as well.

[584] So that's, you know, five or six great, great managers who couldn't make it work at Manchester United for whatever reason.

[585] So I think time has almost been good to you in terms of your, the story of your time.

[586] Look, I, I, I, I, I, huge respect for Josie Marino.

[587] Huge respect for Louis Van gal you know all he was new and is one of one of Manchester United's own so was always going to be given every opportunity to try and make it work as well so I think that I think there's been some great managers going into Manchester United I think the biggest problem for Manchester United is Manchester City how do we I'm a Manchester United fan season ticket holder how from your experience do we get things back to how they were I think you'll need to probably get rid of PEP somehow from my city.

[588] I think that's my way.

[589] I think I think PEP is, I think there is some managers.

[590] I think...

[591] But you must have an unbelievable perspective better than me at like what, because you knew Fergie, you knew the club, everything, you've been inside it.

[592] What do we need to do to get back to...

[593] I think Manchester United different principles than most of the other Cubs.

[594] Looked at their use a lot.

[595] didn't always sign maybe the, as I said before, maybe the top diamond, always sort of picked and picked out good players who improved.

[596] And now and again, went and bought a canterna every so often, or Van Nistelroy or Van Persie at different times.

[597] So at different times, they bought really good players at good times.

[598] This is actually a really good point because we've also bought some world -class players and they've all failed.

[599] Yeah.

[600] So there is something about Manchester United, they had their own way, but because of the competition which came in from Manchester City, Chelsea, probably more in the earlier years.

[601] I think those two clubs, I think, I think Liverpool have had an incredible peer and got a really good manager as well and top players.

[602] I think over the year, Man United and Liverpool have always had a level of competition against each other.

[603] People say we've not spent money.

[604] In terms of players, we've spent shitloads of money.

[605] We spent almost a billion or whatever.

[606] Huge.

[607] And all these players, I remember the foul cows, the D -Marie, because I get excited every time and I celebrate and I start, you know, blowing up my friends WhatsApp chats and saying, you're screwed, we're going to win the league.

[608] And then every year the player fails and then the manager's sacked.

[609] Yeah.

[610] So it feels like a bit of a...

[611] It's the expectation or the excitement on the new players coming in.

[612] I get this all the time.

[613] And I say this quite a lot to people here in media, you know, they're talking about, oh, you need to buy new players, no way, buy new players.

[614] And I say, I would really like football to be where money was not always going to be the key to it.

[615] know we think the more players you say the more money you spend means that you win the league are you successful and look I think it probably will prove that it is but I'd rather see that you know sometimes that it's not that way and I just do think that quite often you know not buying all the top it doesn't mean that you have to buy the topers I think it's buying good players and people who've got good characters and people who are going to work hard for the team and then they come into that culture which makes one makes yeah which makes makes the difference.

[616] One plus one equal three, like Leicester that year.

[617] Yeah, Leicester, and the year they had was probably we're all hoping for, whether it be us and, you've seen other clubs.

[618] I mean, actually, Newcastle United, for example, Newcastle United bought a couple of, with respect, three or four English players last January, British players, probably not necessarily on the radar of the biggest clubs in the country.

[619] And they've turned round and they've had an incredible momentum from probably January last year, just before January and are keeping that momentum going and now they're bringing in they're adding in the odd bigger star or the bigger player as they go along but I thought their business at the start was very good.

[620] If I'm one of your players in your dressing room to be a David Moy's player at West Ham and what would, from a character and a personality standpoint, your expectation be of me so that I fit into the culture and I'm successful?

[621] I'd want you to be hard working.

[622] I want you to be hardworking.

[623] I want you to be honest in your endeavour I know I'd want you to do your jobs whatever you want I want you to be a team player individuals are really important and no more hugely important we've just seen in the World Cup individuals but but I do think that I think to have a consistency about your team is you need to have a team I think if you've got individuals you might get inconsistency but you might get some really good days and we get clubs who can afford to carry one or two individual players to go along.

[624] But I think while you're trying to build, build, I think you have to start with a really solid base, good foundation, and then from that point you try and grow.

[625] Pamela, you met her at a disco.

[626] Yeah.

[627] She was lucky.

[628] Yeah, so I keep telling her, but most people disagree.

[629] She's been through it all with you, you know, the everything she's followed you around for decades and supported you in many many ways and um i've heard about the sort of dynamic in your relationship where she's been really really supporting you kind of do a lot of it together you're there for each other tell me in your own words what like uh what she means to you i guess uh well it's the sort of thing you ask that question you'd probably get emotional if you start saying that so i'm going to say that before i start uh look my wife has been unbelievable towards me because I remember when we were young about what we said is we didn't earn great money I wasn't a hugely wealthy footballer when I was getting paid but I wanted to play football and would have taken a wage so Pamela worked as well and we had to work to pay the mortgage when we were together when we were there so we're it was very much together at the start how we could sort of have a family how we could work together and I remember saying to her I said I might need to be a football coach and I remember when we're court and I said look I'll need to go to coaching courses I might not be here I'll need to, I want to try and go and see it does and remember saying no problem you go and do what you have to do and if I wasn't given that freedom in the early years to say I'm going coaching courses I mean I went out to see Ancelotti at AC Milan I went to the World Cup and I have to say you know I remember I went to the World Cup and I didn't have lots of money at the time and we weren't skin but we didn't have loads of and the PFA helped fund me so I think at the time the PFA helped fund me get to the World Cup to go and watch and I remember writing to I wrote to about five or six countries and said you know could I come and watch your training and none of them replied the only country replied was Scotland and Craig Brown was the manager now I was a Scottish coach and worked and I was still young at the time and they invited me to come and watch training in Scotland none of the other teams did.

[630] But my wife let me get away and got on with it and try and seek and find out what I needed to do probably in the hope that somewhere after my football career was finished that I might have been able to do something else.

[631] But she still has a great inspiration to me. And so my kids, my kids are good kids and, you know, good family and it's really important to me. What role is she played, Pamela, in the harder times in your career?

[632] you know i think i think when you're a when you're a football manager you're going to have hard time so undoubtedly so hard time's been a football manager hey hard time sometimes mean you get sacked and you get you get some money for leaving the job you can look at that and say hey he's okay with that but it's not you've got pride you know as i said yeah i was probably losing the job i was more an embarrassment i felt embarrassed from from my family really that you know they were getting talked about, they were getting looked at, no, people were shouting out now, your dad's lost his job or whatever it may be at that time.

[633] So my wife's just always stood by me and really supported me whenever it comes to the games, probably knows when she should speak and when she shouldn't speak, when it's going well and when it's going badly.

[634] And even that's a skill in itself because, you know, when you're in it, when you're the boss, this quite often we respect your partner quite often could say the wrong thing at any minute and you go no you might be think why are you not thinking about no you're in the wrong case so I think it's really important that your partner understands exactly how you feel where do you think you'd be professionally without her I couldn't imagine anything I couldn't imagine my life really without my wife and do you know something I'm not I'm 59 at the moment moment.

[635] So I've got a good bit to go and we've got a good bit to go.

[636] And I want to look forward to the years, we're latter years together where we can have more time together because being a football manager means that you're away just about every weekend.

[637] So you're either away staying in a hotel preparing for a game or you're, you know, you're with a team and actually the way football's gone, you're in every Sunday now, you could be in all the time.

[638] There's very little family time.

[639] And actually it's one of the things, I think, people don't understand hey by the way it's a great job really well paid game everybody wants to be involved in as you're like to say but it's incredibly time consuming you know and it takes up so much your time and if you if you have a family probably they're the ones who suffer most because they don't see you as much as what probably other families might do if you work uh monday sort of nine to five you go home at the weekends at least uh being a football manager the weekends uh you don't and I'm trying to get a membership with a golf club at the moment back in my home I can't get in and they say well you've got to play with members and you've got to play with friends and I'm saying I've got no friends in the business we're in it's really hard to have lots of friends outside of our industry the reason why is because our social time when folk are saying hey we're going out Friday night we're going out Saturday night you come with us no I'm in the hotel we've got a game tomorrow we can't do that oh well you're going to Saturday night, yeah, but I lose.

[640] Obviously, I'm not going out with them if I'm going to lose Saturday night.

[641] So lots of reasons why being a football manager is a great job, but it's also got lots of anti -social behaviour things because of how the job works.

[642] Earlier you said that you haven't been historically so good, especially when you were younger at giving praise, I can relate.

[643] One of the things that men are particularly bad at is letting, and I'm speaking about myself here, is letting their significant other know how much they appreciate them.

[644] I think women are usually better at kind of that affection and saying the kind words and stuff.

[645] And as men, I know this for myself.

[646] I don't think my partner actually has a clue how much she means to me and how much she's been there for me in the hardest times and just her presence sometimes when she says nothing in the hard moments, how that changes my state.

[647] If Pamela is watching this, what are the words you wish you could tell her that maybe you haven't told her?

[648] She would probably know that a lover.

[649] Of course she would.

[650] I would hope she would.

[651] but more importantly I miss her because I'm in London a lot of the time she's up north she's caring for her mum a lot at the moment I just really over the time she's been great we've had great times together but I always want to say I think my best times in football I hope we're still to come but hopefully our best times a couple are still to come as well David thank you thank you for lots of inspiration over the many, many, many years and lots of good memories in football.

[652] You've been an incredible manager, all the clubs you've been out in my view.

[653] And I do wish that Manchester United had given you more of a chance because I just generally believe everything you say about the importance of when you come into a new system or organisation, needing that time to understand and make it your own.

[654] So even as a Manchester United fan, I was always, I'm always really annoyed at how quickly we've moved on with our managers before giving them a chance because they're all objectively great managers and you certainly are as well.

[655] And it's just an honour to meet you because, you know, I've watched you on the screens for decades, so thank you.

[656] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest.

[657] And the question left for you is, what is the biggest public misconception about something that has happened in your life?

[658] After thinking about it, I think that there was, I felt there was a few untruse at the end when I lost my job at Manchester United, actually.

[659] and I found it very difficult to correct them.

[660] I felt that, you know, they had been written, so it was very difficult to correct them, you know, which they weren't right.

[661] And from that point of view, I couldn't do it and I found that actually probably one of the biggest difficulties is because you try, you want to say, well, here, I'll explain why I made this decision, I'll explain why I chose to do that.

[662] But really, once the headlines there, that's the only thing that matters.

[663] You've got to give me one.

[664] Yeah, I'm trying to think of one.

[665] I've got this one, but I don't know if I, I don't want to give the player's name.

[666] That's fine.

[667] So, I mean, it was actually, so somewhat like that they said that Manchester United had banned chips.

[668] On a Friday, Rio had said in his book that had banned chips.

[669] I read that.

[670] Yeah, I did.

[671] And it was actually something which probably most sports profession, you wouldn't really have chips.

[672] but then part of it but understood Manchester United Sir Alex done a lot of things maybe slightly different and I totally respected that and what happened is I remember it was one of my first first games were staying in the hotel and there was one player who was overweight which I won't name and I remember walking in and I was walking into the dining room and he had his dinner and next to me he had a side plate of chips and that was my reason for after that scene that one player with the with the the side portion ship.

[673] That was my reason for saying there should be no chips on a Friday night and it was sort of written about that that was one of the reason but my reason was actually because one of the players who was actually at the time a bit overweight I saw him with the side plate of chips and that's when I used or banned them if you want to say that.

[674] Interesting.

[675] Thank you so much David Field time.

[676] Such an honour.

[677] Thank you so much.

[678] Thank you.