249 - Clear of Debris

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome.

[2] To my favorite murder.

[3] How are you?

[4] How are you?

[5] This is a podcast.

[6] That's how we are.

[7] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[8] That's Georgia Hartstark.

[9] Thanks for having us in your ears.

[10] What's going on in here?

[11] Ooh.

[12] Are you cold?

[13] What's that smell?

[14] What was that thing we started sending each other pictures of tweezers pulling?

[15] Was that some hair being pulled out of cats ears?

[16] No, it was poodles.

[17] They'd do this.

[18] I found videos of hair, like long -haired dogs get hair, like stuck in their ear, you know?

[19] And then there's videos of like groomers yanking it out and the dogs, and they're my favorite thing in the world.

[20] And they're right to be making that noise and shivering in disgust because I can't.

[21] cannot figure out like that the zip popping videos also love like all the different I can't figure out how I feel about it oh you don't you don't you're not like absolutely love or hate you're like in it feels like attraction repulsion it feels like I'm not sure I want to look away I can't that's disgusting I don't want to see it I can't stop looking at it like it's a real I guess that's part of the appeal for people I love it purely and with the people pure heart and soul.

[22] But then I can't watch, like, people getting punched.

[23] Like, stuff like that upsets me a lot.

[24] Oh, that's what I, that's what I am looking for.

[25] Like, when there's going to be a fight on, like, you know, on the Senate floor or something, I can't.

[26] I get so upset and I feel so bad for everyone involved.

[27] On the Senate floor.

[28] I don't know.

[29] You know, when they box and stuff on the Senate floor.

[30] You know what's really funny is my sister.

[31] There was some video that went viral recently of somebody getting punched.

[32] and my sister I was like I can't remember um how we were talking about it but at the same time we both started laughing and we're because people were flipping out of like oh this person got punched or whatever yeah and at the same time we're like that was not even a good fight that was not even a good punch and then we started laughing because when we were in college my sister hung out with this group of guys who and they were it was all people from my high school like a huge group of people from my high school went to Sacramento together.

[33] Yeah.

[34] And some of my cousins.

[35] Like there was a whole bunch of us up there.

[36] And so everyone would go, I mean, I couldn't.

[37] My sister was old enough to go to these bars on the weekend.

[38] And she would go with this group of guys who at the end of the night would absolutely fight someone in the street.

[39] And it was just going to happen because they were going to get drunk and they were going to start a fight with somebody.

[40] And so like someone they didn't know or part of their group.

[41] It just depended.

[42] But usually it was someone.

[43] they didn't know.

[44] And so my sister would they, you know, end up standing outside black angers or wherever the fuck they would be.

[45] And, you know, my sister's in her like, yes, miniskirt and her arms crossed all rolling her eyes.

[46] And then there's all, there was always like girlfriends standing next to her, like crying and going, stop it, stop it.

[47] And she'd be like, just be quiet.

[48] It's going to be over in like five minutes.

[49] Don't worry about it.

[50] She's playing her part.

[51] That's her part.

[52] It's starting to get really upset.

[53] And meanwhile, my sister's like checking her watch.

[54] And she's just like, yeah, this is what happens every weekend.

[55] Just it doesn't need to be that big of a deal.

[56] Oh, God.

[57] It's so funny.

[58] I'm not into fighting.

[59] Love fighting.

[60] It scares me. It scares me and like, and it's also just like the way people's face looks when they face look when they realize that getting punched hurts, even though they've been talking a lot of shit.

[61] And suddenly they're like, oh, this is real.

[62] Yes.

[63] I don't like that feeling, like that feeling of that cold watching over you of, oh, this is fucking happening yeah well very true and i do not envy boys and men who have to get sometimes feel that they have to get into that situation like they just that's the only choice they have or they have like a smart mouth or a bad personality and they get themselves in that situation but at the same time and i think it's because my dad was just kind of like a real big guy yeah yeah so i never had to i just knew that if if anything happened, I was with the guy that was going to win.

[64] He's bigger than everybody.

[65] And he was scary, even not punching anybody.

[66] He could be scary enough to make people go away.

[67] He's an intimidating presence.

[68] And actually, you know what Vince's dad always said is when he was, Vince was a kid.

[69] Vince's dad said to him, don't start any fight, but finish every fight.

[70] Yes.

[71] I love so much, which is I think how you should live your life.

[72] Completely like you don't let people.

[73] people walk on you.

[74] But you don't look for trouble.

[75] My mom told me this great story one time.

[76] They were walking in some little town like in, you know, kind of, they went out for the day and had lunch or something.

[77] And they were walking by this bar.

[78] And there were some dudes standing outside the bar like, you know, hanging out or smoking.

[79] And they kind of looked like biker dudes.

[80] And as they walked by, one of them made a joke about my dad being bald.

[81] What?

[82] And they walked.

[83] they kept walking and that my mom said they walked like 10 more feet and then my dad they were kind of like arm and arm or holding hands or whatever and then my dad stopped and turned to my mom and said no you stay right here I'll be right now and then he just walked straight back to them and they all ran away yes because he was just he was like and my mom just thought oh he is just kind of embarrassed and he's like whatever but he basically walked her away from the area yeah so that he could go back and kick their this is not for you let me take a moment now you stand here not involving you clothing store you're clear of debris or anything that could fly out of this fight oh god yeah i don't i mean like yeah actually i've never been in a physical fight oh personally i would i would never do it and i'd always be like ew oh my god like i could i could do it but i would always just be like i'd rather just be mean It's so weird.

[84] It's so weird.

[85] It's like it goes in slow motion for sure.

[86] Have you been in fights?

[87] Oh, yeah.

[88] Like girl fights?

[89] Yeah.

[90] I was in one fight in high school with like my friend and we got and had this falling out and then she came after me in the lunch and the like main, the quad or whatever.

[91] Yeah.

[92] I fucking won.

[93] Sorry, but we made up later.

[94] It's not.

[95] It's fine.

[96] But I definitely punched her in the face.

[97] And.

[98] you know what happened is like she came after me we start fighting I'm big I was bigger than her and like a little scrappier I feel I feel terrible about that because I'm so anti -fighting and violence and all of that but you know it doesn't help had all the hormones happening and that's what it is I think when you're younger or also when you're first um having fun times with alcohol and you have that kind of like you're invincible feeling yeah there's it's very normal to kind of test that out or to have these weird and then like emotional times no no then like passionate friendships with girls that you have at that age are so fraught with so many emotions and you know just the highs and lows that happen the betrayal of those kind of like I've tried to tell Nora stuff without being sounding like a crazy like old witch going beware but it's like that kind of thing where and what worries me about the way people parent these days is they're so up the asses of like so -and -so's friends parents now we're friends and I mean I'm talking about kind of small town stuff but I just worry about that because it's like what if they have a falling out and they truly don't like one of them does something truly fucked and they're not going to be able to tell you about it and then suddenly they have to hang out because the parents are friends like it's all that stuff we didn't have to worry about yeah back in the day worry about that I think that's why I'll take that one off my list.

[99] Permission to check it off my list.

[100] Thank you.

[101] I needed to hear that.

[102] Let's see.

[103] Are you watching anything, doing anything fun, special reading?

[104] I feel like that I'm doing my thing where I'm re -watching British shows and that it brought me a sense of peace and calm.

[105] Great.

[106] So the one I'm doing right now is a television show that I truly adore called Lark Rised.

[107] Candleford Those words don't mean anything to me It is so good Did you watch Downton Abbey?

[108] First season Yeah So there is There was a Like a footman Or a butler On that show And he was like The big famous one From downstairs He plays the dad In this show That guy's name's Brendan Coyle And then the woman who I love Which every I think everybody loves her She played the daughter on absolutely fabulous.

[109] The put -upon daughter.

[110] Her name's so good.

[111] Julia Sawala, I believe.

[112] She's the lead.

[113] Great.

[114] And she runs the post office.

[115] Okay.

[116] And then the penist.

[117] And then Claudia, who she plays the mom.

[118] And I've talked about her before.

[119] She's the British actress that was in something else that we loved.

[120] But I was like, she needs her own props because she's so good.

[121] And oh, she's like, she's in the Pride and Prejudice movie.

[122] she's amazing so it's basically kind of like all my British actor friends in one big show and then it's like village life in the like it seems like I don't know mid -1800s okay that sounds like everything I don't want everything you want and I'm really happy it's every it is it's like everything I want but it also is the thing where you know like and maybe this is a quarantine thing but like around the time I start watching TV at night what I start my brain is like I'm like I Oh, you can just go hang out.

[123] It's almost like I'm going into another room where the people are.

[124] It has that vibe because it's families and there's like little problems.

[125] It's almost like a British soap opera a little bit.

[126] So you're like actually having a life still.

[127] Yes.

[128] But it's just you're not involved in it.

[129] It's very sad.

[130] I'm not not saying that.

[131] The people.

[132] They're my friends.

[133] My TV people.

[134] I have a suggestion for something to calm your nerves or like happy ones.

[135] watching.

[136] So, okay, old game shows.

[137] Sure.

[138] There's a channel called buzzer, B -U -Z -R.

[139] I think it's like an app you probably like have to add on or whatever.

[140] That just shows old fucking weird game shows.

[141] And there's this one that I, we had never seen before that we are now obsessed with called concentration.

[142] Yeah.

[143] You do know that one?

[144] We're solving the puzzle.

[145] You're solving the puzzle.

[146] And it's like memory, like the game memory where you turn over a thing and it's like washer and dryer.

[147] And then you turn up for number 15 and it's washer and dryer.

[148] And you match and you get it.

[149] And then you have a chance to solve this puzzle.

[150] And the original host was just clearly hated everyone and everything.

[151] And he was so mean.

[152] And then and the puzzles were so hard.

[153] And it would be like a riddle that you'd never heard of before.

[154] So everyone lost.

[155] No, sorry.

[156] Really quick.

[157] Was the puzzle that was revealed a, there's a word for it and I won't be able to remember.

[158] But it's those things with the, I see the cow or whatever.

[159] Yes.

[160] So there are people.

[161] right now that know the name and are yelling at their phone, and I'm sorry.

[162] But there are also the things that are inside the Peps Ribbon caps.

[163] Like a riddle using pictures.

[164] There's a word.

[165] Rubix.

[166] Rubin.

[167] Yeah.

[168] Sure.

[169] Ram.

[170] Rebus.

[171] It's a fucking ribus.

[172] Really?

[173] You got it?

[174] Yeah.

[175] I believe so.

[176] Nice job.

[177] I believe so.

[178] Sorry, keep going.

[179] No, no. So then Alex Trebek takes over, which reminded me that we need to fucking pour a little of my non -alcohol.

[180] alcoholic beer on the carpet for in memory of who man we grew up with Alex Trebek bless his heart entirely and my family watches jeopardy every night at either seven or seven 30 I can't remember when it's on up there well it's at seven because then wheel fortune comes on after and we turn it really fast you don't like one of fortune it's too stupid it's stupid it's stupid but jeopardy is like Like, that's how, when Jeopardy's not on at 7, I know something weird's happening with my family.

[181] That's that thing of like, why, why hasn't my dad made popcorn and why isn't Jeopardy on at 7?

[182] Instead of an awkward silence, there's an awkward, no jeopardy.

[183] Right.

[184] Yeah.

[185] Well, so I love that.

[186] And so Alex Trebek now is the host.

[187] It's like the 80s, I think.

[188] And it's much better.

[189] He likes his job and the puzzles.

[190] He's not mad.

[191] He's not mad and insults.

[192] this guy like insulted the players it was so funny um so that's great and then Alex Trebek rest in peace and then another thing he didn't mention talk about last week I think because we were so amped about the election and like it didn't even cross my mind but like Kamala Harris is the first fucking female nominee vice president yeah any not nominee yeah anything it's he I feel like it's overshadowed by this so many things that are happening but it's like yes Incredible.

[193] It's incredible.

[194] You know what?

[195] It's that kind of thing we're like they have to go through.

[196] They're just being forced to go through the things they're going through now.

[197] I do love that the Trump administration is a one for 25 in their court cases.

[198] They've lost all but one.

[199] Amazing.

[200] But also it's just like it's like this is just that it's going to be a difficult in between time.

[201] We all knew it would be.

[202] We all know he wasn't going to have grace, dignity, any kind of like larger, picture behavior choice it was just going to be him tweeting i won it four in the morning why start now i mean why start now you know can't too late old dogs old dogs but i think you know what that's a great point and it's the kind of thing that i think once we're in january it'll be yes a much easier thing to start saying hey there's all kinds of barriers barriers have been broken for lots of different people yeah and it's i want i want to celebrate that instead of like instead of cowering in a corner hoping everything doesn't implode but yeah you're right we're not there yet well but they're really laying the foundation of that it's not going to because it's basically just like but court conservative judge after conservative judge is saying there is no case here and yeah and I appreciate that yeah can we talk about Sunday night we found out that we were like on the Simpsons in a way oh shit oh my god yeah what the I had no idea until someone was like someone Instagram commented cool Simpson's cameo and I was like what are they talking about yeah I should actually thank the first person who tweeted me because this is how I knew and it was one of those things where I kind of um I didn't know what to do do you think I was like made fun of first I thought someone making oh yeah oh yeah I was just like oh shit this isn't going to be good there was all kinds of ideas that went through my head at Stuart Farger I think Stuart underscore Farger he just sent a so now I can tell you the story because he sent me this picture he went not sure if you've if you've seen this already but I couldn't risk not letting you know and then he even put top right in but he sent me a picture where you were cropped out of the cell so when you texted me like two hours later went oh my god have you seen this i was just like i don't know oh fuck i don't know what to do i like i was just like what i was just like my thing was i guess i'll never talk about it because it's like your your feature in the sacramento or in the um petaluma newspaper where they crop me out but it's the fucking simpson but it's the simpsons but you're like the g was there where i was like oh fuck this isn't good whatever and then i i opened the one you sent me. And I was like, oh, my God.

[203] Thank God.

[204] Oh, my God.

[205] I appreciate you not celebrating without me. That's not a celebration.

[206] But it was it almost looked like, oh, it's just like, it almost looked to me like it's, first of all, like it's a movie when it's an animated thing, but it just like, oh, that just didn't, that didn't make it into the shot.

[207] Right.

[208] Kind of thing.

[209] But for some reason, Stu just, stew cropped you out.

[210] It wasn't.

[211] It wasn't, it turns out.

[212] So, so then it became a joyous celebration.

[213] Yeah.

[214] It's really cool.

[215] And you haven't seen it yet.

[216] Yes, it's an episode where about Lisa and Marge getting into a true crime podcast and, of course, Small Town Dix, which is Lisa's podcast, IRL.

[217] Yardley Smith, of course, does Small Town Dix podcast, so that's there, of course.

[218] And then they go and it looks like a restaurant and there's like caricatures on the wall of, like, true crime podcasters.

[219] And we're there.

[220] It looks like Dan Tannas, which is a famous steakhouse in L .A. where they have celebrity pictures on the wall.

[221] And so it's an honor after honor.

[222] Also, we're up there with fucking Deezis and Mero.

[223] Dan Carlin, Sarah Caining, like all these people were just like, oh, shit.

[224] And the dough boys are there too.

[225] It's like, I feel immortal.

[226] They're there in person.

[227] I feel immortal.

[228] It's fucking crazy.

[229] It's amazing.

[230] Also, Karina Longworth is there in person.

[231] Like, it's a really cool glow up for podcasters and people who have, you know, I think of the work that Karina Longworth puts into, you must remember.

[232] remember this.

[233] We've talked about that podcast a ton, but if you haven't heard it, it is just a brilliantly done podcast about old Hollywood mayhem.

[234] Not necessarily crime, but like, yeah, bad stuff, mayhem, weird stories, whatever.

[235] It's so well done.

[236] The work she puts into it is unbelievable.

[237] Yeah, it is.

[238] And like dough boys as well have been doing this before there was money to be made.

[239] like they've been doing this when you actually like kind of lost money by podcasting a little and the amount that they've spent on like the fast food they've lost money they've lost their health insurance no it's very it was really lovely it's yeah it's very cool and my friend matt selman was one of the first people i met in l .A when i was moved here when i was 24 he was i think maybe even younger than me and we used to go to the same bar all the time and at the time he was the writer's assistant on the simpson now he's an executive producer now he's the EP he runs it yeah with with other people but yeah he's he's the top dog is amazing so yeah so then later on he sent me an email saying hopefully you saw the easter egg and hopefully we you know you we hope you did the we did podcasting right or whatever it was really lovely honor yeah honored of it i just can't even yeah that's one of the things where i was looking at it.

[240] This was, aside from the other worries that I had, I was looking at it, I'm like, now am I dead?

[241] Because this is so crazy.

[242] Come on.

[243] Like, is this real?

[244] There's no way.

[245] Yeah.

[246] Like, how important Simpsons was to me throughout my childhood.

[247] To the point where my sister yelled, mom, George, is having a cow when I had a seizure.

[248] That's how important it was.

[249] It's a big deal.

[250] I mean, it was a big deal.

[251] Yeah.

[252] You were probably 11 right when it came out because I was 19 yeah and it went and meant the world to us it's incredible that's it was a big fucking deal so it kind of reminds me of when I saw um weird al for the first time and I was like oh my and I just had text my brother like I know this is crazy and we have yeah it was wild these moments these are high um caliber I was going to say high water moments that's not the saying I don't know what I'm saying It was high caliber.

[253] Really, it was a boutique moment.

[254] I just wanted to, I feel like there's, I'm in a, now that things have, now it isn't pre -election week or election weekend or any of those things, there's a tiny bit of normalcy ebbing back into life or whatever.

[255] And it's making me actually feel my feelings again, which I don't appreciate or enjoy.

[256] Boy.

[257] But this morning, so, you know, as I've told you a million times, I keep all these papers just sitting on my desk from every time we record.

[258] So, because I'm always like, you have to use it for scratch paper.

[259] Oh, it's sitting right in front of me. And this morning, my therapist had a couple bangers.

[260] And I just wanted to share it on.

[261] Because I literally was like, sorry, I need to write this.

[262] I stop talking so I can write this down.

[263] Because I can't, I think I was just talking about how I'm having a hard time in COVID.

[264] Kind of like, like, I'm having reactions that don't make a ton of sense once they come out of my mouth.

[265] And then I get really like self -loathing and feel a lot of shame.

[266] To which she said, she's like, that's toxic shame.

[267] And toxic shame lies in wait for those moments when you falter so it can jump out and yell, I was right all along.

[268] You're bad.

[269] Oh, I feel that one.

[270] Yeah.

[271] I feel that.

[272] You know, everybody feels shame.

[273] And sometimes it's actually very helpful.

[274] It keeps you from doing things you don't want to do that you've already done before, whatever.

[275] But when you have toxic shame, it's a different thing.

[276] And when it's a, it's that when that is your problem, you are, you fall victim to this voice in your head that tricks you into thinking, it knows everything and it's telling you how you are.

[277] Right.

[278] And that isn't accurate and it never updates itself.

[279] It never, you know, it's old.

[280] It's the, she always, she always uses the example of.

[281] in a beautiful mind that how the mathematician eventually understood I'm having a schizophrenic episode because the people never aged that would appear to him I never saw that movie It was always a little girl She never got older even though he was getting older The people his roommate was never different And she goes And that's the you have to start putting out these markers So that when you have these waves of feeling You can go Oh no no this isn't you finally accepting reality Yeah Like that's not, that's not it.

[282] Shit, I like that one.

[283] I'm always trying, yeah, I'm always trying to like put a name on that person or to describe that person.

[284] She's all, my therapist is always trying to get me to like, it's not you.

[285] It's a different fucking voice.

[286] And that's a really good one where it's like, I can picture it.

[287] They're tricky.

[288] Because it feels like you.

[289] It feels like your brain.

[290] And it feels sometimes it's like, I'm just trying to be nice.

[291] Yeah.

[292] And tell you, tell you how you are.

[293] And like, and then good thing I've got you where you would fucking humiliate yourself all the time.

[294] Right.

[295] And where it's like, and then meanwhile, on the outside, everyone's just like, what's some problem?

[296] We had a great conversation.

[297] What's happening?

[298] Yeah.

[299] I get it.

[300] Just want to put that into the old, into the old free therapy corner that we've started doing for everybody.

[301] If anybody out there is dealing with toxic shame or an internal voice that sure is mean to you.

[302] We all are.

[303] Yeah.

[304] everybody is oh also she told me that when you have a wave of that it usually takes 15 minutes for it to go away oh so it seems like it's coming and it seems like oh this is permanently how things are forever but if you can keep be aware that it's it's you're having an emotional moment you just put on music for 15 minutes like let yeah it's not a it's not forever okay yeah you yeah so I shouldn't just start yelling at it fuck you go away get out of my fucking head I hate you certainly don't start yelling at others.

[305] Out loud is the only cure.

[306] This is for me to start having straight head.

[307] Start having, punching it in the face so that I'm just throwing punches.

[308] Old school, black, Angus, left right, left hook.

[309] It's the old combination out out in the street in old Sacramento.

[310] Okay.

[311] Let's fight in the street with exactly right news.

[312] Nice.

[313] Beautiful segue.

[314] Thank you.

[315] There it is.

[316] Thank you.

[317] There it is.

[318] Merch design news.

[319] We have a new look listen design.

[320] Yeah, it's done by a friend of the family, Kate Lowe, L -O -W -E.

[321] It's Kate designs it on Instagram.

[322] It's just this really cool line drawing of our faces, very simple, neat, beautiful, look and listen.

[323] Conneal line drawing.

[324] It's very delicate and it's very, it's kind of different.

[325] I really love it.

[326] It's so good.

[327] It's very different than like what we normally have, I feel like.

[328] Yeah.

[329] Great.

[330] So check that out on the web.

[331] site store and that's on my favorite murder .com and then do you want to which okay what what podcast from the exactly right library are you going to shout out this week Karen well first of all just so everybody is aware and this is something you may have heard the ad about or whatever but the exactly right network and all the shows therein may I may I use the word therein we're now on pandora right so if you use Pandora.

[332] If you're into streaming, if you're into experimental streaming, it's free.

[333] But you can go over to Pandora and you can listen to my favorite murder.

[334] You can listen to all of the shows on exactly right.

[335] And please do.

[336] Come support us on Pandora.

[337] Totally.

[338] For example, one of the shows, this week's bananas, I have to tell you, I just listened to it this morning.

[339] The guest on this week's bananas is infectious disease researcher Laurel Bristow.

[340] She is the woman that on Instagram, basically from the beginning, helping people understand what's going on with COVID.

[341] She's basically like, I think a science translator is the term they kept using on the show.

[342] So she basically updates people, tells them stuff.

[343] And she also started, and my sister is her number one fan.

[344] So I've been hearing about Laurel for a while.

[345] And now she has a thing called, yeah, dog, no dog, where she answers really stupid questions.

[346] about the pandemic and about COVID and then social people ask and be like but can't isn't it my right to whatever and she'd be like no doubt I love it super funny yeah so that's and also she's just it's so fun when people like that aren't just good at the one thing they're good at she's such a delightful hilarious guest that's so good on that show with Scotty and Kurt so love it listen to bananas definitely and then I want to talk about our our newest podcast.

[347] I saw what you did.

[348] Oh, yeah.

[349] That episode this week is so great.

[350] Millie and Danielle talk about the films Walking and Talking from 1996 and Me Without You from 2001.

[351] And they talk about foot cigarettes and getting stuck watching sex scenes with your mom, which everyone can relate to, I feel like.

[352] So that's out this week.

[353] I saw what you did.

[354] Such a great podcast.

[355] Please check that out.

[356] And then also make sure that you rate, review, and subscribe to any of the podcasts that you love, including If you feel like doing that, please do.

[357] It really just helps every podcast get more recognition and get more listeners, which is about us.

[358] Yeah, sometimes if you look at the iTunes top 10 or whatever and you don't see the podcast that you love, it's because not enough people have written in or rated, reviewed, or subscribed.

[359] Get involved on a local level.

[360] It's funny because I thought this week you were going to pick the per cast because they have paleontology.

[361] and fossil disease specialist Yarra Haridi on who has a gorgeous Siamese kitten I was positive that's what you're going to talk about I don't like I don't like competing Siamese sorry Steven sorry you're going to have to take a back seat to Elvis I don't want to see the two Siamese cats fight they'd I'm sure they would get along I'm sure they would take a nap together and then okay another fucking announcement they keep coming week after week and this one's another biggie.

[362] These are the shows we were telling you about it in frustration of we've got stuff coming, hang in there, whatever, and now.

[363] And this is, and it's happening now and we're so, so excited.

[364] So this new podcast that you're going to hear the trailer for at the end of this episode, that's the way we do it.

[365] So we give you a little, um, a taste sensation.

[366] It's, um, it is a law and order SVU recap at comedy, uh, interview.

[367] podcast called That's Messed Up.

[368] I'm so excited for this one.

[369] I know.

[370] Ever since this got pitched to us and it's, I heard it first from Kara, one of the hosts, who's a good friend and just a freaking hilarious person and she pitched it.

[371] I was like, Apsa fucking Looley.

[372] Whatever you want.

[373] Yes.

[374] So it's Kara Clank and Lisa Traeger, who are just these two hilarious comedians, long -time comedians, and they're great friends.

[375] And every week, they're just going to break down an episode of Law & Order, special Victims Unit.

[376] They're going to do a deep dive into the real case that inspired the episode.

[377] And then they're also, and they're also, this is the coolest part in my opinion as a person who truly has listened to every episode of Law & Order SVU.

[378] I mean watched.

[379] This is not podcasting.

[380] I've watched every episode.

[381] They're going to have guests on every week who are actors from the show.

[382] and that's everyone from, for example, like the guest star who plays the cult leader or the person that plays a fruit vendor who saw the crime go down, like just any, and then all the way up through till big fancy celebrity guest stars that are on it all the time.

[383] So the show launches on December 8th, obviously on exactly right, but then listen to the trailer at the end of this show.

[384] And then go make sure and subscribe to that's messed up wherever you listen to podcasts and then follow.

[385] them on Twitter at Messed Up Pod and on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod.

[386] Please support them.

[387] This is going to be great.

[388] I'm so excited.

[389] Kara Klink is truly one of my favorite comedians.

[390] I've watched her a lot.

[391] I've done some shows with her.

[392] And she's, but she's also the kind of person like when I would go to say a birthday party that's at a bar downtown or something like that.

[393] And I would always go by myself and then just be like halfway there.

[394] I'd be like just go home just go home like it would be so difficult to even walk in the door if I saw her there it was just like boom I've got my I've got my lighthouse I know where I can go she's so funny and fun to talk to but she's also just very real and she's just she reminds me of someone I've known all my life I she's the greatest totally totally so yay awesome that's messed sorry Lisa please don't take that's ninsal I also think you're hilarious yes but I don't know you.

[395] And I've never, because that's the old NYLA comic divide.

[396] Right.

[397] Because I've never, I've never spent time with her because she's a New York comic.

[398] Me too.

[399] But the respect is there.

[400] It's absolutely there.

[401] And once COVID is over, we're going to have a big exactly right party.

[402] And everyone is going to be, has to be there or they're going to get fired.

[403] And we're also going to give out five golden tickets and candy bars.

[404] And you can be there.

[405] And there's going to be fistfights.

[406] And it's going to be held at the Black Angus.

[407] And it's what a Jacktown.

[408] Oh, shit.

[409] Okay, wait.

[410] I actually don't even know if there is a Black Angus in Sacramento.

[411] That was just the vibe.

[412] I was just like, I love it.

[413] It's like over on the side of the building where the dumpsters are.

[414] That's where the fights usually were.

[415] That's where the party is.

[416] That's where the part is at, baby.

[417] Always.

[418] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[419] Absolutely.

[420] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[421] Exactly.

[422] And if you're a small business owner, you may. might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[423] But did you know that they also power in -person sales?

[424] That's right.

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[431] Connect with customers in line and online.

[432] Do retail right with Shopify.

[433] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[434] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[435] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[436] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[437] Goodbye.

[438] Okay.

[439] So we're doing a quilt episode this week.

[440] Oh, thank God.

[441] Oh, let's just say this really quick before people in the fan cult have learned this bitterly and we do apologize.

[442] But we're almost out of live shows because of the way time passes and the way and how many we've posted and how many we've used.

[443] And the fact that we were supposed to start our tour.

[444] I think in May. May. Was it September?

[445] September yeah it was supposed to be fall tour remember was it yeah it was going to be a big fall tour starting in September or maybe even August if Joe got his way our touring agent yeah it's hilarious and bizarre to us but this is what we're doing with the with the last of the live shows right but also if you're in the fan cult don't you worry because we've got plans and schemes of things that we are going to start posting on the fan cult that you're pretty sure you're going to think are better than the live shows.

[446] And also don't forget that in the fan cold the live shows are in there you can listen to them anytime you want.

[447] That's right.

[448] So it's not like...

[449] They're all backlogged in there as well.

[450] Yeah.

[451] There's a whole thing you can get into.

[452] Yeah.

[453] So this is what we're doing this week.

[454] Um, who goes first this week?

[455] I think it's you, right?

[456] No. No, no. It's you, Karen.

[457] Oh, it's me, Karen?

[458] God.

[459] What was...

[460] What happened last week?

[461] So, we're talking to people.

[462] Right now, I'm talking to you, South Carolina.

[463] I don't know if you remember in 2018 when me and a little lady named Georgia Hartsterk came to see you at the North Charleston Performing Arts Center.

[464] And this is my story from that night.

[465] It is the story of old -timey, legendary lady female.

[466] Lady female?

[467] No, I love it.

[468] Go with it.

[469] Do it.

[470] I've lost my mom.

[471] Live it, love it.

[472] Learn to levitate the lady female serial killer, Lavinia Fisher.

[473] Yes, this is a good one.

[474] My story is also super old.

[475] Cool.

[476] Because, Charleston, I don't know if you know this about yourselves, but you are the home of purportedly America's first female serial killer.

[477] Fisher.

[478] Let's take it.

[479] Let's take it.

[480] She's fucking chilling like George.

[481] What's up, bitches?

[482] That's what she's saying.

[483] What's up, bitcho.

[484] I'm the first trailblazer.

[485] I guess that color yellow was kind of popular back then.

[486] I guess so.

[487] A mustard?

[488] Here's what's funny.

[489] Stephen sent me, so Stephen, of course, handling everything always.

[490] And he finds us like the photos, you know, he does like the good searches for us.

[491] He makes this because we don't know how to.

[492] And then he makes that pretty thing.

[493] He's so good at computers, little Stephen.

[494] He sends me this picture and he goes, they're not sure if this is actually a picture of her but this is what shows up every time you put in Lavinia Fisher like it's not guaranteed that this is her image exactly it could just be like a cool old cigar ad or something but don't fuck up our correct streak this podcast we've been so ripe all night she looks dead -eyed and chill as fuck so let's just say it's her she really does look like she's kind of Throw on some hand signals there, too.

[495] She's like trying to explain something to someone.

[496] Listen, I love to kill multiple people.

[497] In a short amount of time.

[498] It's what I do.

[499] Okay.

[500] She was born in 1793.

[501] Okay.

[502] So we're back where you are.

[503] Here we are.

[504] These might be parallel stories.

[505] People are in the dungeon.

[506] She might have been killing people.

[507] Okay.

[508] There was nowhere to go in Charleston.

[509] And that's pretty much, aside from her being born at 70 to 93, that's pretty much all we know about her for sure.

[510] They don't know anything about her early family, or at least I don't.

[511] And that's basically, yeah, that's all that matters.

[512] I bet you there is some kind of a history professor in this audience right now who's like, I can tell you a couple things about her, don't know about her early life or her family or where she was born or her maiden name or really anything at all.

[513] But we told you, nothing.

[514] thing.

[515] One thing is very clear that she spent most, if not all of her life and did all of her crimes in Charleston, South Carolina.

[516] So, in 1810, she would have been 17.

[517] I'm just trying to do the math in my head of, like, when this is, because literally there aren't years until, like, near the end when she gets arrested.

[518] So...

[519] It's like history didn't like women or something.

[520] It's weird.

[521] Didn't care.

[522] It's like female killers weren't as simple.

[523] important.

[524] We can hazard guess that the following events began sometime around, like 1810, 1815.

[525] Great.

[526] They're about rough estimate as the crow flies.

[527] All right.

[528] So, just to talk about America in 1810 and in South Carolina at the time, 40 years after the American Revolution, so actually not close to your time.

[529] Well, we were there.

[530] We were just there.

[531] We were nearby.

[532] So this is Baby America.

[533] Cotton is king, in this area, of course, slavery is legal.

[534] Charleston used to be the capital of South Carolina, early, early days.

[535] Oh, you guys pissed.

[536] Did you know that?

[537] I did.

[538] Are you guys mad about that, so?

[539] They moved it up to Columbia, because everyone, congratulations.

[540] Congratulations on your win, your big win.

[541] That's right.

[542] Columbia is more central to the state, so everyone, all those lazy legislators were like, can we just can we just be in the middle we're always going to the coast so but that happened in 1786 so I watched an educational video that was four children from probably 1977 it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen because it just kept showing like the manor houses so they talked about how the plantation owners who lived out in the country obviously to have their big huge farms they would come in and build these big beautiful houses in Charleston and then there's just all these children dressed in period clothes but with like 70s hair who are like walking, looking at the camera and like walking up steps like is this how you want me to do it?

[543] Or like opening a weird drawer?

[544] And the best fucking part is they're just trying to explain like how daily life was for rich people back then and they had oh this is on know at all .org So you too can go and watch this same video and learn, as I did, about your amazing state.

[545] It also started with the shape of the state, and then it said SC in it.

[546] And I was like, I've never been taught anything.

[547] I love to learn.

[548] So at one point, they'd go out on the port and talk about how the children of the day used to play on a thing called a jogging board.

[549] Cry laughing at the jogging board I don't know what that is So we'll tell you what a jogging board is Tell me You know how seesaws are like way too fun and scary And like do a bunch of shit And you can't trust where they're going to go Well if you took a much thinner piece of wood And put it on your front porch And then maybe put a little thing under this end So it was higher up on one side And then you just stood on it and bounced up and down That's a fucking jogging board according to this video.

[550] It's a super vintage trampoline, is what you're saying.

[551] It's a trampoline with no risk.

[552] It's a seesaw with no fun.

[553] It's a piece of wood.

[554] 20 bucks, if we were to try it right now, we'd be like, oh, this is kind of...

[555] Oh, my God, I love this.

[556] It's a good thigh workout?

[557] Oh, my God, it's so good for your lymphatic system.

[558] I saw a jogging board on an infomercial, and they were like, lose weight and drain your lymphatic system.

[559] because it might be like, $89 .99, yes, I'll do juggling boards, please.

[560] And it also sounds like someone was like, some kid was fucking around with this thing, and his mom was like, if you don't tell me what that is right now, I'm going to get mad.

[561] He was like, it's a joggilly, like, just made up some dumb thing.

[562] What are you kids doing out there?

[563] With jogging?

[564] I love it.

[565] I'm with it.

[566] I'm here for it.

[567] The idea that you cheered for juggling boards.

[568] God damn it, Charleston, I love you.

[569] That is special.

[570] Remind me when the hometown person comes up, we have to be like, did you have a jogging board when you were a child?

[571] What is this?

[572] Okay.

[573] So essentially, Charleston was the big city.

[574] People were constantly traveling to it, leaving it for business and trade and bartering at the harbor, as we talked about before.

[575] And whatever else, the rest of the video said that I didn't watch, because once the jogging board part came, I was like, I've seen enough.

[576] everything I need to learn today.

[577] And this acting sucks.

[578] Come on.

[579] Stop looking into the camera.

[580] Now you have to think of it, it's 80 years before the first car is built.

[581] It's before the first railroad.

[582] So there's just, it's like impossible to get anywhere at any time.

[583] And so everyone's traveling, like, by horse or, you know, carriages or whatever on these roads.

[584] I think they have Uber's for carriages?

[585] Nope, it's a taxi.

[586] Never mind.

[587] Go on.

[588] I answer my question.

[589] So there were these things back then called Highwaymen, and they were basically the dudes that would rob you when you were just like going down the road by yourself on your horse.

[590] And...

[591] What?

[592] Going down.

[593] Here's you.

[594] Dumb.

[595] On a horse.

[596] Dumb.

[597] Gun.

[598] Oh, no. Highway men.

[599] Give us all your weird leather bags filled with...

[600] Filled with the balloons and tea.

[601] Okay.

[602] So there were groups of them, like gangs of them and stuff.

[603] And our girl...

[604] There's actually a music group called A Highwayman.

[605] Yeah.

[606] That's right.

[607] With Johnny Cash, right?

[608] Anyways.

[609] I figured you guys wouldn't know because it's the South, but no. So our girl Lavinia Fisher hooks up with a Highwayman herself.

[610] John Fisher.

[611] That's not her maiden name.

[612] Fisher is her married name.

[613] so we know by all the accounts of her she was very beautiful and she was very charming and so I like to think she was like a rich girl with a personality disorder like she had it all but she was like fuck you mom I'm not marrying that guy I can go out and start robbing people on the road I've had it with this life of luxury so she could have married a captain butterscotch or a Dr. Bramblebones or whoever her neighbor was her ever her dad was going to fix her up with.

[614] She could just play jiggly board for the rest of her life.

[615] But no, she was like, not enough for me. I would love to pull a gun on someone and really live.

[616] So she marries John Fisher, the highway man. And so what we know for sure is they get married.

[617] I mean, they become active with a gang of highway robbers.

[618] And they don't know exactly if she was.

[619] doing, if she was actually like holding a gun or a musket or whatever, or just a long finger and with a furrowed brow, give me your money.

[620] Or if she was just kind of like aiding and abetting.

[621] But essentially she was a part of this gang.

[622] And eventually, and they don't know if they, if John and Elveneo bought their, because they ended up buying an inn, and it's called the Six Mile Wayfarer house, located how many miles away from Charleston?

[623] Let Georgia answer.

[624] Six miles.

[625] That's right.

[626] They help me cheat.

[627] Not to be confused with the five mile in, which was one mile down the road.

[628] I'm not joking.

[629] They weren't big into names back then.

[630] I clearly wasn't paying attention to the name of that place.

[631] So they don't know if they bought it with their robbery money or if they just killed the previous owner and took over.

[632] I bet that one.

[633] I bet it's number, too.

[634] Yeah.

[635] So they basically take possession of the six -mile way for her house, the six -mile in, essentially.

[636] And we know that Livonia had no problem with crime, whether she was just kind of making dinner for everybody or whether she was doing it herself.

[637] So here's how they did their crimes.

[638] She would go into Charleston, and she would lure men back to the six -mile -in, inviting them to dinner.

[639] possibly drinks.

[640] Maybe some nice music.

[641] Maybe music, a little chit -chat about a news of the day.

[642] And probably getting them drunk so that then they would need to stay there to sleep it off.

[643] And as they turned in for the night, she would offer them a cup of tea.

[644] And yes, what does that remind you of?

[645] Poison.

[646] Right.

[647] That's right.

[648] What else?

[649] The sinner.

[650] Oh, the sinner!

[651] Watch the sinner.

[652] So good.

[653] Karen texts me the other night.

[654] Wednesday night, when the sinner, is everyone watching it, when the sinner...

[655] It was the final episode.

[656] It was the final episode.

[657] Season two.

[658] Season two is the middle of the final episode.

[659] We were in our hook.

[660] I'm not going to do it.

[661] I'm telling you, she sexed me, sexed me?

[662] Busy this weekend.

[663] Nice save.

[664] Thank you.

[665] She essentially said, I can't believe the blank blank did it.

[666] And I was like, did you just fucking spoil this for me?

[667] I was sleeping.

[668] Now I'm going to retell the story of the way it actually happened.

[669] We talked about watching the center together before we left for the trip at the airport.

[670] And then all the way up until the thing we always do, which is we're like, let's do a thing.

[671] And then we're like, I'm tired, I'm going to stay in bed where we're going to order room service.

[672] So I assumed, because I was obsessed with, I was like checking the time.

[673] I looked it up on the internet to make sure that I was not going to miss it.

[674] So I was so on it.

[675] And we were texting about something else.

[676] And I did text you.

[677] Careful.

[678] Don't give a spoiler away.

[679] Bloody, blah.

[680] simple fact with not a lot of words like she just said but it did have one word in it that was key and then I was just like oh no I don't care is it didn't if it's happening to me it's happening to you so I was like we're watching we're watching the sinner right now there's no question in my mind sorry George I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry let's go to therapy bringing it on back.

[681] Tea.

[682] The tea.

[683] Got it.

[684] She gives some tea, and it's fucking laced, of course.

[685] So these men go up into bed, and there's a lot of different versions.

[686] Of course, this is a lot of legend, because it's a very old story, but basically here are the several methods that are known of the way that they would rob these men, that she brought, lured back to the inn.

[687] She would she would give them the tea they would get like basically high off of it and go to sleep and then while they were sleeping they would rob the people get all their shit off of them so they couldn't fight back and then once they were done robbing them they would flip the bed over and the floorboards would separate open up and there was a pit underneath the bed that they would dump the body into and some say the pit had spikes at the body That turned real quick I'm like, take us some tea.

[688] You're like, thanks for the lampchop, Lavinia.

[689] I think she likes me. Dead.

[690] Oh, my God.

[691] Now, also, she would give them the tea.

[692] They would be like, well, I feel crazy.

[693] I'm going to lay down.

[694] Go to bed, pass out, be high from the tea.

[695] And then John would just come in and stab the fuck out of them.

[696] And then they would flip the bed over, and the body would go down into the basement.

[697] They sound like bad people.

[698] I think they weren't good.

[699] And then they would rob them, of course.

[700] Sure, sure.

[701] The third way, and of course, my favorite, she would drug them, get them up into bed, get into bed with them, and then crush their skulls with her thighs.

[702] Impossible.

[703] Yes.

[704] Not if you really want it.

[705] That's fair.

[706] Clearly, the legend has grown.

[707] And, you know, that's almost like, it turns into like, oh, she was a serial killer to like, yeah, imagine what she would do to you.

[708] Imagine, if you were all drugged up.

[709] I mean, I'd be cool if it was at least like a fun under size, or...

[710] Yeah, there's like a rapper, those women.

[711] Okay, so they do this for a long time, and of course, men are going missing from out of town and from Charleston.

[712] And, but of course, back then, it took, what, eight months to communicate, anything in any way.

[713] So it's all very slow going.

[714] And every time they would go to the six mile in, they would look, somebody would say this person, this is my husband, this is my son, they've gone missing.

[715] And the police would go look into it.

[716] They would figure out that the last place the person was seen was at the six mile in.

[717] But they would go to the six mile in.

[718] And Lavinia and her husband John were these cordial, lovely, good -looking, friendly, smart people that would say, oh, yeah, he left here and tell them some story.

[719] And, and And there would be no evidence of anything that the person was there.

[720] There would be no indication that anything bad happened.

[721] So they would all leave.

[722] And they were actually friends with a lot of the authorities and the policemen and stuff.

[723] And they would just smile and shake hands and be on their way.

[724] And there would be no further investigation.

[725] And be like, well, we simply don't know.

[726] Anyway, back to the rats.

[727] So it goes on long enough that the townsfolk are like, fine.

[728] If you're not going to, we know, like, word of mouth, something crazy is happening up at the six mile in.

[729] And this is my favorite thing about when you're trying to do research and you don't like researching.

[730] And this is, so the townspeople get all, they get like a militia together.

[731] They all grab their different weapons and pitchforks and stuff like that.

[732] And this is in February of 1819.

[733] And they go, they decide they're going to head up to the six mile in.

[734] but for some reason they only make it to the five miles that sounds like a joke I know I checked like three websites and I'm like I'm not a fucking history professor but for some reason they don't make it they just like they have to stop whatever so they decide the townspeople are like okay we're going to leave you stay here a guy named David Ross you stay here and be a lookout Dave Ross Dave Ross.

[735] Dave Ross he has a stand -up comic, we know.

[736] It's funny to the two of us.

[737] And that's about it.

[738] And to Dave Ross, when he hears this.

[739] Which will be never.

[740] Dave Ross, of course, now I can't not picture a guy in like a built -to -spill T -shirt and a cigarette standing outside this five -mile in being like, well, the fuck, why do I have to do it?

[741] Hipster.

[742] But really funny, really solid jokes.

[743] And also, why leave just one guy?

[744] It's like, oh, so we're going to go confront this gang.

[745] Dave, will you take it?

[746] Dude, I got it.

[747] I got this.

[748] Don't worry.

[749] You guys go back home.

[750] So the next day, a couple of the highway men that belonged to the gang that hung out at the six -mile -in, walk by, and they see Dave Ross hanging out trying to stand guard or something.

[751] Running some new jokes for his new set.

[752] Yeah.

[753] He's like, man, they're fucking five -mile in.

[754] It's no six -mile in.

[755] Am I right, ladies and gentlemen?

[756] It's like, I need to work on.

[757] that and here come these robbers and so they grabbed Dave Ross and beat the shit out of him and drag him back to the six mile in like this guy is here to investigate us and it's almost like he was only one person yeah against a gang yeah weird it's almost like this was kind of the worst plan and they got the worst person to be it's not like you know you picture like if you had a guy that looked like the mountain from Game of Thrones that's the guy you leave at the five mile in to stand guard.

[758] I don't know that reference.

[759] Go on.

[760] Sorry.

[761] It's almost like the guy from the sinner.

[762] Okay.

[763] I'm there.

[764] Okay, so when Dave Ross gets to the Six Mile in and there's just all these dudes that want to kick the shit out of him and all these highway men and bad guys, then he sees Lavinia's face and he tries to appeal to her because he's, oh, a woman's here.

[765] She'll be nice.

[766] And he tries to appeal to her.

[767] sensitive side, which of course pisses the fuck out of her.

[768] So she chokes him out and smashes his head through a window.

[769] Lavinia, chill the fuck out.

[770] No, equality, equality.

[771] Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[772] She's like, how dare you think I'm empathetic?

[773] So, let's see, what does he do?

[774] He somehow escapes.

[775] He runs six miles back to Charleston.

[776] I put that in there.

[777] And he reports the incident to the authorities.

[778] So around the same time, a traveler named John Peoples is traveling from Georgia to Charleston.

[779] And he stops at the 6 Mile in, and Lavinia is like, I'm sorry, there's no vacancies.

[780] You can have dinner and, of course, a nice cup of tea.

[781] And she did this.

[782] This is another way that she decided on who to rob and kill.

[783] she would just chat with them obviously during dinner and asked them a bunch of questions like what do you do really how much money do you have in your pocket oh my god that's crazy and she would just milk them from information and then they would decide if that person should stay there so that they could rob and kill them the entire time John Fisher is just kind of standing off on the side staring which is such not a good plan at all yeah it's the the husband should go I mean if you need to do this now and you may for this plant so this guy John Peoples is getting the weird he's like this is the weirdest fucking place I've ever come to and as he's answering these questions and John's staring at him he's like this vibe is odd when she gives him the tea just by by chance he doesn't like tea so when she's not looking he dumps it out in a potted plant did they have potted plant did they have potted plant a spatoon maybe some kind or Love it.

[784] Love it.

[785] A poor person.

[786] Whatever they did back then.

[787] So then suddenly, Levini is like, after she sees the T's gone, she's like, oh my God, we do have a vacancy.

[788] Come right this way.

[789] And she brings him up to the room.

[790] So he, once he's in the room, he's thinking about it.

[791] He's like, they're shaking me down.

[792] This is not good.

[793] So instead of getting into the bed and going to sleep, he sleeps by the door in a chair.

[794] so he basically can stay awake and like he's nervous.

[795] And in the middle of the night, the bed, he wakes up to this loud crashing sound and the bed has disappeared.

[796] So he walks over and looks down and sees that the trap doors open and...

[797] Wait, they would drop the whole fucking bed into the trapdoor?

[798] That's the way this was worded from, you know, Wicca fucking Pedia.

[799] Let's go with it.

[800] We don't know.

[801] Let's go with it.

[802] I like the idea that they had all different rooms and the bed could do all kinds of things have in the room.

[803] Or they just had extra beds in the back and they would just like go through beds every night because they would all drop through the...

[804] Maybe Lavinia was like an heiress to a bed fortune.

[805] She's just like, I'll get another bed from my dad, assholes.

[806] Yeah, yeah.

[807] Either way, he fucking sees the pit.

[808] He sees the whole deal, jumps out the window, gets on his horse, goes back to Charleston, it's like, hello, I need to talk to the authorities.

[809] They're like, sorry, we're talking to Dave Ross right now.

[810] We can get in line.

[811] Yeah.

[812] We got all these rats to deal with.

[813] He's trying to do a set.

[814] So, oh my gosh.

[815] They, the police finally go and they have like a real reason to investigate the six mile in and they start investigating the rooms.

[816] Oh, I picked this up too early.

[817] And when they're there, of course, they discover dozens of travelers' belongings and these missing people, all the belongings are there.

[818] Driver's license.

[819] Key rings.

[820] They find an herb that could knock you out for as long as need be.

[821] All the evidence is piling up.

[822] Then they find hidden passages.

[823] And then they find the mechanism that triggers the trapdoor in the floorboards under the bed.

[824] And then they go into the basement where they find hundreds of sets of humans.

[825] and remains.

[826] Oh my God.

[827] So they just basically just dumped them all down there, kind of like your dungeon, just leave them there.

[828] I guess it's like if it already, if life already smells really bad in general, they're not going to notice the smell.

[829] No. Yeah, it's like, no, we shit in like the hole.

[830] Yes.

[831] In a bucket in the corner.

[832] So, it's cool.

[833] Just don't worry about it.

[834] Yeah, yeah.

[835] So the fissures are arrested, of course.

[836] not guilty, the judge orders them to remain in old Charleston jail until the trial.

[837] That's what I was waiting for.

[838] There it is.

[839] Still standing.

[840] Are the apartments?

[841] I would live there.

[842] The old Charleston jail lofts.

[843] It's an open floor plan filled with ghosts.

[844] Oh, that's beautiful.

[845] Isn't it gorgeous?

[846] I honestly would fucking live there.

[847] There's offices?

[848] She said, There's an office!

[849] And then went, woo!

[850] Like, cheer at first.

[851] You did.

[852] Great job.

[853] On September 13th, 1819, Lavinia and John try to escape by the old classic tying all the sheets together in a sheet ladder.

[854] When has that ever worked?

[855] I mean, it doesn't work here.

[856] John gets out, but the sheet chain breaks before Lavinia can get down.

[857] Yeah, dude, it's fucking Scooby -Doo shit.

[858] No. It's not going to work.

[859] He's like, when you get down here, I have a huge sandwich.

[860] I could never eat.

[861] And a talking dog.

[862] But here's the thing about John.

[863] He doesn't leave her.

[864] He fucking allows himself to get recaptured and try to take the heat off of her.

[865] Are you crying?

[866] No. I don't cry.

[867] Not at all.

[868] No, but that's very sweet.

[869] I think it's beautiful.

[870] They both are found guilty of robbery.

[871] Which at the time is a hangable offense.

[872] Sure.

[873] It's just basically how they took care of business back then across the board.

[874] They also got murder.

[875] Okay, good.

[876] I was hoping that one would stick, too.

[877] Once you get hanging, it's all gravy.

[878] Right.

[879] Their sentence to be hung in the old gallows behind the old Charleston jail.

[880] Till they die.

[881] Until they die.

[882] February 18th, 1820.

[883] John accepts his fate, and he only pleads to the priest to save his soul, not Lavinia.

[884] Lavinia fucking.

[885] she's pissed in court she says I can't be hung I'm a wife and so the judge goes okay well then we'll just hand your husband first oh shit dude it's like a rat battle like an early fucking insult battle oh you think you have a solution yeah watch my mind at work yeah so then the next trick she had up her sleeve was she walked out to get hung in her wedding dress.

[886] Because she believed that if people, if somebody in the crowd, because as you're saying, it's like people love to show up for hanging.

[887] Sure.

[888] That was like the thing to do.

[889] That was like Shakespeare in the park for these people.

[890] So she figured she would look beautiful in her wedding dress and maybe a man would want to marry her real quick and you can't hang a bride.

[891] Doesn't work.

[892] No one's into her.

[893] No one thinks she's hot.

[894] Because also you're going to think about like, I'm thinking of like a veer wang there's like bling as they say and any poofy sleeves no this is just like fucking white rags whiteish rags it's several white rags sewn together exactly that she tried to escape with and it didn't work she makes a wedding dress out of a tied up Scooby -Doo sheets killed everybody want to save me so of course it doesn't work then she refuses to walk so they have to drag this poor murderous bride across the gallows and with the noose around her neck she rants and raves while all the Charleston socialites listen to her scream these words if you have a message you want to send a hell give it to me I'll carry it that's the most badass fucking thing I've ever and just screaming to like the real housewives of the 1800s they were like what the fuck did she just say to us she looked right at me holy shit She wasn't just America's first female serial killer.

[895] She was also the first Bridezilla.

[896] Thank you, I just thought of that right now.

[897] That was amazing.

[898] Not written on this page.

[899] Final move, which actually makes me love her 100%.

[900] She fucking jumps off the scaffold.

[901] She fucking did it her son.

[902] Oh my God.

[903] Because she probably die quicker, right?

[904] I don't know.

[905] But I love that fucking idea.

[906] the guy's sitting there waiting to, like, drop the floor out from under her, which is her move.

[907] And it said she's like, love you, Lavinia.

[908] She's like, hold my beer, I guess.

[909] She's like, watch this.

[910] Oh my God, watch this.

[911] This is going to be nuts.

[912] And then shows her wedding dress.

[913] The residents, residents say that Lavinia still haunts the old jail.

[914] She does.

[915] They say that.

[916] that her ghost has been seen in the cells walking around and wearing her wedding dress.

[917] It has for sure.

[918] Amazing.

[919] And that's the story of Charleston's Levinia.

[920] That was amazing.

[921] I'm so thankful I went first.

[922] Because how the fuck would I follow that?

[923] She'll have for the fucking dungeons or anything.

[924] If you have a message from hell.

[925] That's such a great idea.

[926] What if someone in the back is like, oh, I'd like to tell my asshole uncle to fuck off?

[927] I can't mean she was going to take my message.

[928] Just a little piece of.

[929] the paper handed over to her.

[930] Oh, God.

[931] Really?

[932] I'm so sorry that happened to you.

[933] Jesus Christ.

[934] Wow, Karen.

[935] As the applause said, great job with that one.

[936] Are you seconding the applause?

[937] Wow.

[938] I double down on that applause, Karen.

[939] Thank you.

[940] Thank you.

[941] 2018 applause.

[942] I feel like it was yesterday.

[943] I wish you could go back on that stage and warn everyone about what's coming.

[944] Distance.

[945] Okay, so mine actually is timely.

[946] It's a Thanksgiving Day killing.

[947] So it's perfect timing.

[948] Next week is Thanksgiving and you don't have to see your family.

[949] Yeah, you an automatic get out of a family function.

[950] For free.

[951] Come on.

[952] It's like, have you asked for a bigger gift ever and gotten it?

[953] I mean, no. Just party, party, party, party, party, party.

[954] This story is from a, Minneapolis, Minnesota, one of our favorite fucking towns.

[955] It's, we, we did a show on May 19th, 2019 at the Northrop Auditorium, beautiful place.

[956] And so this is the crazy story of murderer Byron David Smith and the Thanksgiving Day killings.

[957] Oh, shit.

[958] Can we get security?

[959] Security.

[960] Security.

[961] Just like, just hanging out, you know?

[962] It's almost like with like Lincoln.

[963] there should have been like some security, light security at the door.

[964] You know, it's easy to judge now in modern times, but back then, all they had were lanterns and hope.

[965] Lice, don't forget, lights.

[966] Oh, and don't forget those bedbugs.

[967] Did you, I recently read an article that bedbugs survived the asteroid that killed all the dinosaurs.

[968] That's pretty awesome.

[969] Bedbugs lived.

[970] That's cool.

[971] Roaches.

[972] Was it roaches or bedbugs?

[973] It was bedbugs.

[974] the article I read.

[975] Okay.

[976] But we can definitely talk about roaches because that's just as gross as bedbugs or barf.

[977] I have to, have you ever had bedbugs?

[978] No. I have to say that like five and a half months of traveling and we haven't had a single scare, I think it's like, I think I'm waiting every fucking time I get home to start itching.

[979] Oh, I've never even thought of that.

[980] Well, I think about, I'll tell you all the fucking things I worry about.

[981] Great, great.

[982] We're going to get rid of all of it tonight.

[983] It's fun being up in here.

[984] All right.

[985] Let me tell you, about 100 miles outside of Minneapolis in Morrison County is a small town of Little Falls.

[986] Oh, not so small.

[987] No, they're all here tonight.

[988] Small, but mighty little falls.

[989] That's right.

[990] It's one of the oldest European American cities in Minnesota.

[991] The river town, it's a river town, and the slogan is, where the Mississippi pauses.

[992] How?

[993] Oh.

[994] I don't know.

[995] Maybe they built a dam.

[996] I don't know.

[997] No. It's just like, it's like idyllic as fuck and like everyone loves it.

[998] It's chill.

[999] I don't know if that's true.

[1000] It's the feeling you're getting.

[1001] Yeah, it's idyllic.

[1002] But not so in 2012 for 64 -year -old Little Falls resident Byron David Smith.

[1003] Yeah.

[1004] He is a local curmudgeon.

[1005] I called him.

[1006] Is he a real crumb?

[1007] He's a real crumb.

[1008] Tell them.

[1009] Tell them why.

[1010] That's funny.

[1011] We had a...

[1012] This is just going to be a series of sidebars until we...

[1013] We all stumble out of here in two hours.

[1014] Whispered in your drag -along, it's usually better than this.

[1015] We got it.

[1016] In Milwaukee, we had a woman come up named Stacy who told her hometown, and she was amazing.

[1017] And at one point, while she was describing the terrible murder, I think by hand of a husband killing his wife.

[1018] and she told some really specific and terrible detail and the whole audience went and she goes, I know, he's a real crumb.

[1019] Karen lost her shit.

[1020] I had a full on nervous breakdown.

[1021] It was so inappropriate.

[1022] So he was, yes, he was a real crumb.

[1023] He was a real crumb.

[1024] So he lives in a home in a secluded area near the Mississippi River and on a bunch of acres of land and shit.

[1025] And he's fed up at this point in 2012 of his house being broken into.

[1026] Let me show you a picture of him.

[1027] Okay.

[1028] He sucks.

[1029] Okay.

[1030] There he is.

[1031] All right.

[1032] Right.

[1033] Yeah.

[1034] So it had been going on for about a year, these break -ins, and first was someone breaking into his garage, and they, like, had smashed stuff and, like, tip things over and stolen some things, like, his old military clothing.

[1035] And by late 2012, his house had been burglarized at least half a dozen times over the preceding few months.

[1036] Wow.

[1037] And he had only reported one of those burglaries to police, and investigators found evidence of only two previous burglaries, but among the items stolen were $4 ,000 in cash, his father's P -O -W watch, and some of his medals from Vietnam, coins from his collection worth around $5 ,000 and a bunch of other shit, and they had also stolen his guns, which he said had scared him, because no, they have his guns.

[1038] So, oh, he's not scared of his own guns.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] I leave them in a room by themselves because I don't want to be near them, and now someone else has them.

[1041] Right, and that's when trouble starts.

[1042] So then a friend of his, who was a neighbor, saw a local teenage girl walking to the bus stop, wearing his army jacket that he knew was his, and so he's fucking pissed off.

[1043] Because, so, because he, Byron Smith had been trained, a trained security engineer for the U .S. State Department.

[1044] So security was his fucking thing.

[1045] He was in charge of, It clearly wasn't.

[1046] Right.

[1047] That's correct.

[1048] He didn't bring his work home with him in any way, apparently.

[1049] He had gone to embassies all over the world and had been in charge of making sure their embassies were secure until 2006 in his retirement when he moved back home to the house with his mother, and then his mother had died about a year before.

[1050] So I'm sure, I wrote, I'm sure his ego was kicked in the dick when he found out a teenage girl was breaking into his home.

[1051] Well, yeah.

[1052] It doesn't feel good.

[1053] But we're like, teenage girls are wily bunches.

[1054] They're fucking, they're scrappy as fuck.

[1055] So he began wearing a holster with a loaded gun inside his house and installed a security system in his home as well.

[1056] So now we get to Thanksgiving Day 2012.

[1057] Smith had been visiting with his neighbors when he saw a car that he thought was casing his home.

[1058] He then commented to the neighbors that he was visiting that he needed to get ready for her and went to his home to prepare himself for a break -in.

[1059] First, he drove his vehicle down the road out of the parking, his, you know, driveway, they call him.

[1060] He drives his vehicle off his driveway and down the street, parking in front of a neighbor's home, so it looked like no one was home in his house.

[1061] Then he went back to his house.

[1062] He removed light bulbs from the ceiling light, so it was dark, and he positioned a comfortable chair.

[1063] It's a fucking lazy.

[1064] boy let's be honest in the basement so that it would be obscured from the view of someone walking down the basement stairs so here's so that's his fucking recliner okay um between those two bookcases and then and then so see that bookcase on the right yeah in between that bookcase and the other one is where his recliner is so the person walking downstairs wouldn't see him wouldn't know someone sitting there exactly and there's a tiffany lamp and you know shit like that he still has exquisite taste.

[1065] Even though he's a super creep.

[1066] Yeah.

[1067] Okay.

[1068] So he also loads two guns, a revival.

[1069] Nope.

[1070] A revolver and a rifle, which if you put them together would be called a revival.

[1071] A revival.

[1072] I'm not wrong.

[1073] I just invented a new fucking gun.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] Don't be so intimidated by her brain.

[1076] Yeah, Stephen, trademark that.

[1077] That was the best I've ever done.

[1078] Okay.

[1079] Okay.

[1080] And at the bottom of the stairs, he sets down a tarp so that if he shoots anyone, he can wrap the body in at the bottom of the stairs.

[1081] So he's prepping.

[1082] He's taking, he is taking the law into his own hands.

[1083] Okay.

[1084] He settles into his reading chair with water, snacks, and a novel and waits for someone to break in.

[1085] What book by Jackie Collins do you think he was reading?

[1086] I tried to find out what book he was reading.

[1087] And then I was like, that's not important, Georgia.

[1088] What's wrong with you?

[1089] Georgia, it's 5 .56.

[1090] You have to finish this.

[1091] Yeah, it turns out your show starts at 7 and not 8, and you didn't know that.

[1092] Get your shit together.

[1093] Get it?

[1094] Together.

[1095] Okay.

[1096] So later that day, he's sitting in his chair watching his video surveillance footage from outside the house, and he could set up all these video cameras.

[1097] I have to say, go ahead.

[1098] It's just that is a fun thing to do.

[1099] Have you ever watched when people have security cameras and you can just watch innocent people who don't know they're on camera?

[1100] Just walking around.

[1101] My friend had an apartment where one of the channels on the TV was the front door, like closed circuit television.

[1102] Is that legal?

[1103] It was in 1995.

[1104] And so we would literally sit around his apartment drinking beer and watching the front door.

[1105] And we did it one time and we were all shit -faced and some of our friends started leaving.

[1106] it was Blank a patch and Laura Billigan and they walked out and walked up and thrown into the camera and then Blaine started strangling Laura.

[1107] It was like a little silent TV show play of a murder.

[1108] Yeah, but what if someone else in the building was watching that too?

[1109] Right?

[1110] Exactly.

[1111] Wow.

[1112] The best.

[1113] That's like such a stoner thing to do.

[1114] It's just like sit and watch that.

[1115] It was 95.

[1116] You're welcome.

[1117] Okay.

[1118] All right.

[1119] Settles into his fucking asshole.

[1120] chair.

[1121] Okay.

[1122] So, he's watching his chair.

[1123] Nope, he's sitting in his chair.

[1124] He's watching the surveillance video.

[1125] One of the cameras could have been pointed toward that chair.

[1126] That's true.

[1127] And you can see all this, I wouldn't recommend it, but you can see this video for surveillance on all these fucking shows.

[1128] And it captures a 17 -year -old Nick Brady casing the property before he breaks a window and sneaks in.

[1129] So downstairs, Smith hears the window break and proceeds to wait in silence for 12 minutes as Nick begins to, and, like, looks around in the house, and then he starts to go downstairs.

[1130] Like, in those 12 minutes, he could have called the cops.

[1131] He had a phone right next to him and said someone's breaking into my house.

[1132] He could have done all of that.

[1133] He doesn't.

[1134] He waits in silence with a whole gun.

[1135] Well, because at this point, they've been fucking with the wrong person, essentially, and he's pissed.

[1136] Yeah.

[1137] And he has been paranoid.

[1138] It's a bad combination.

[1139] It's like the perfect storm.

[1140] Right.

[1141] Exactly.

[1142] Okay.

[1143] And so, So, but he doesn't want, you know, he doesn't want the cops to be there.

[1144] Otherwise, he would have called that.

[1145] He wants to take care of business.

[1146] So 12 minutes after he breaks in, Nick begins to descend the stairs into the basement.

[1147] And as soon as Byron Smith in his chair sees Nick's, like, legs and hip, he shoots him twice.

[1148] And Nick falls to the bottom of the stairs onto that tarp that he had set up and shoots him again in the head point blank.

[1149] Whoa.

[1150] It's fucked up.

[1151] Then he wraps Nick's body in a tarp and drags him into the other room.

[1152] And he, there's like blood and, you know, stuff on the carpet.

[1153] And so he takes a rug and covers it, which is like, you know, he does it so that when someone else comes in, they won't see that that's have happened and won't run.

[1154] They'll come downstairs.

[1155] Yeah, which is insane.

[1156] It's like a trap, right?

[1157] So, da -da -da -da -da -da.

[1158] He washes his hands, some time goes by, and then he runs back to his chair and reloads his weapon.

[1159] and takes up his previous position in the obscured chair.

[1160] And this is because the reason he goes back to his chair is because not long after he had killed Nick, he had spotted Nick's 18 -year -old cousin, Haley Kiefer.

[1161] She was a senior at Little Falls High School, and she had been sitting in the car waiting for her cousin, Nick.

[1162] She knew he was breaking in, and she had just been waiting in the car for him.

[1163] They were very close, the cousins, Nick and Haley.

[1164] They were more like siblings than cousins.

[1165] And in the show, Hear No Evil.

[1166] on Discovery ID, which is so brilliantly named.

[1167] It's just, you know, murders that have sound things in them.

[1168] You what do mean?

[1169] Here, no evil?

[1170] Like, recordings.

[1171] Oh.

[1172] Get it?

[1173] Yeah, now I do.

[1174] Because I explained it so well.

[1175] I'm surprised you didn't get it on the first.

[1176] Well, because so many things have sound things in them that I just was trying to figure out.

[1177] Name one.

[1178] You're right.

[1179] You're right.

[1180] You're right.

[1181] I can't think of it.

[1182] one thing.

[1183] I told you.

[1184] Okay, so she had been, she had been waiting in the fucking car for her cousin to come back.

[1185] He's like, I'm going to run in.

[1186] And they, oh, so on here no evil on Discovery ID, the grandfather says that, that they, he acknowledges that they did some, what he calls bonehead things, but they were like good kids.

[1187] So they were 17 and 18 year old bored teens in this small town, and they were doing some shit.

[1188] It's like not fucking argued that they, you know, were on a bad path.

[1189] but they were so young, you know?

[1190] Yeah.

[1191] So they had stopped so that Nick could break into Byron's house before the two of them were to head to the family's house for Thanksgiving dinner.

[1192] Right.

[1193] So when Nick doesn't come out, Haley is like, what the fuck happened?

[1194] She goes into the house and tries to find Nick.

[1195] So she's calling her cousin's name and she makes her way down the basement stairs and Smith shoots her.

[1196] She's wounded.

[1197] she falls down the stairs and Smith shoots her multiple times and including in her left eye and he yeah he kills her and then he tosses her body on top of her cousins shooting her one more time and killing her like this was his plan.

[1198] He leaves the teen's bodies in the basement workroom until the following day he leaves them there and then he calls a neighbor and asks for help finding a lawyer.

[1199] He doesn't call the cops.

[1200] He calls his neighbor.

[1201] the neighbor calls police because they're normal that's what you do it's a basic thing when police asked Smith why he waited until the next day to notify police of the shootings he says he didn't want to bother the police on Thanksgiving he said if my Thanksgiving was ruined doesn't mean yours needs to be as well how big of you I know so Smith has brought in for interrogation and you can like watch these videos and shit.

[1202] And actually, hearing no evil does a really good job of reenactments with the actual video, nope, recorded stuff.

[1203] The audio?

[1204] You know.

[1205] Thank you.

[1206] So he calmly and politely cooperates with police and describes to them, like monotone, like he's having a conversation about what he had for fucking lunch.

[1207] He describes them the events that led up to the murders and matter -of -factly describes the shootings in chilling detail.

[1208] He tells authorities that he finished off Haley with a shot under her chin with a, with a, wait, wait, with a shotgun because a 22 caliber, quote, doesn't go through bone very well.

[1209] He's explaining it like he went deer hunting or something.

[1210] And he says that Haley, after she fell down the stairs when she got shot the first time, he had tried to shoot her with a shotgun again, but it had misfired or like it wouldn't shoot.

[1211] What do they call that?

[1212] It jammed.

[1213] Thank you.

[1214] and then he says that she laughed at him when he did that.

[1215] And so he said, quote, if you're trying to shoot someone and they laugh at you, you go again.

[1216] But here's the thing.

[1217] Before settling into his recliner in the basement, Byron Smith had set up a digital recorder and there were at least six hours of audio of the entire events.

[1218] Oh, my God.

[1219] Yeah.

[1220] So when investigators listen, they find no record of Haley laughing, only her cries of fear.

[1221] and you can find this pretty easily, and I recommend that you don't.

[1222] It's really fucking troubling.

[1223] And she, after she shot the first time, she's heard on the recording screaming, I'm sorry, and oh my God, and he calls her a bitch and shoots her again and kills her.

[1224] It's horrific.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] So, and there are other inconsistencies to Ryren's claims of self -defense and fear.

[1227] He said that he had done it because he was so scared someone was breaking his house, but it doesn't add up.

[1228] prior to the break -in, he's heard talking to himself on that recording saying stuff like in your left eye, which he had later shot Haley in her left eye, and quote, I realize I don't have an appointment, but I would like to see one of the lawyers here.

[1229] It sounds like he's on the phone trying to get a lawyer.

[1230] When they look at his phone records, he hasn't made any calls.

[1231] He's just practicing saying that the next day, knowing that he's doing something that is going to need to involve a lawyer.

[1232] Here's a thing.

[1233] If you had six hours recorded of somebody at their house walking around talking, by itself, a non -murderer, just a person, it would be the creepiest thing you've ever heard.

[1234] Oh, my God.

[1235] You don't want to know what people are saying and practicing and fucking ranting about.

[1236] And, like, it's me yelling at my eyebrows as I pluck them and shit.

[1237] And then practicing, I was like, oh, really?

[1238] Because I actually didn't say that.

[1239] And the thing is that you said it first, and I said it after you.

[1240] There's all that.

[1241] Is that against me?

[1242] We don't know.

[1243] It really could be anybody.

[1244] There's no proof.

[1245] No. There's no proof of anything.

[1246] So the idea that then, this is a fucking audio recording.

[1247] A person who is cold -bloodedly planning murder.

[1248] Right.

[1249] But it's so weird that he knows it's on.

[1250] He's the one who recorded it in a way that was like, like, he did it so that he could prove that it was self -defense because in his fucking mind, that's what that was, he was doing.

[1251] Right.

[1252] So, okay, so following the shootings, Smith made a number of other statements, including, quote, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal.

[1253] I felt like I was cleaning up a mess.

[1254] I was doing my civic duty.

[1255] This is all him talking to himself.

[1256] Yeah.

[1257] And if the law enforcement system couldn't handle it, I had to do it, and I had to clean it up.

[1258] And then he said, it's all fun, cool, exciting, and highly profitable until someone kills you.

[1259] Like, he's talking shit to these fucking teens that he just killed.

[1260] Don't listen.

[1261] But listen, if you're into that, but don't.

[1262] It's terrible.

[1263] You shouldn't listen.

[1264] I will not ever.

[1265] don't want to listen now.

[1266] So Smith's recorded statements and the evidence indicating he had planned the shootings, along with the excessive number of shots fired, led to Smith being indicted on two counts of first -degree murder in April 2013.

[1267] Great.

[1268] Yes.

[1269] He posts the $50 ,000 bail, and while on bail, lives with his neighbor and her 16 -year -old son, which I'm like, Mom, don't do that.

[1270] Please, Mom.

[1271] Mom, can we not?

[1272] Are they sharing a bunk bed?

[1273] Like, what's happening?

[1274] And why?

[1275] And why?

[1276] The charges against Byron Smith sparked this huge debate in the county and in the state over what's called the Castle Doctrine.

[1277] So y 'all love guns here, I guess.

[1278] We're from fucking California, and we don't do that.

[1279] No?

[1280] Great.

[1281] No, and I mean, like, hunting.

[1282] I don't mean like, you guys are, you know what I mean.

[1283] We're going to sink it.

[1284] I swear to God, we're going to do it.

[1285] We're going to do it.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] Just wait.

[1288] Well, I read a, the reason I say that is because I was, of course, looking it up on our email account and seeing if anyone had wrote in about this, and someone was from there and explaining what it was like there and said, for example, when we had raffles at school, we'd raffle off shotguns.

[1289] Like, that was just the thing.

[1290] And he's like, I didn't know that was weird until I got older.

[1291] Okay.

[1292] Yeah, but also when you're from, like, I'm from a rural part of Northern California and everybody had a gun.

[1293] Right.

[1294] You got, boys got guns for their, like, 12th birthday.

[1295] Yeah.

[1296] And they're, like, shotguns.

[1297] and, you know, stuff like that, not, you know, not handguns.

[1298] Right.

[1299] It's a, yeah, it's a different thing.

[1300] Yes.

[1301] Agreed.

[1302] From Southern California.

[1303] I'm sorry.

[1304] Irvine.

[1305] Irvine.

[1306] Okay.

[1307] So the Castle Doctrine allows a homeowner to defend his home with lethal force.

[1308] But Minnesota has what's known as a reasonable person doctrine.

[1309] So basically.

[1310] Thank you.

[1311] I know.

[1312] So nice.

[1313] Wouldn't that be nice?

[1314] Can we have that fucking worldwide?

[1315] How about a nationwide fucking reasonable person doctrine?

[1316] it's basically what a reasonable person view what he had done to defend himself in his home or what would a reasonable person do in the situation when someone's breaking into their home so legal analysis have stated that analysts analysts thank you of course it's like analyzed all crazy all over the place and that the initial shooting most likely would have been justified under Minnesota's laws, but that the subsequent shots were not justified once any threat had been removed.

[1317] So once he realized they didn't have weapons and they didn't have, you know, a gun, which is they didn't have anything on them, that threat had been removed.

[1318] So Hamline University School of Law Professor.

[1319] The fighting.

[1320] You have to do it.

[1321] Have we already done the fighting briefcases?

[1322] Nope, but there it is.

[1323] Probably.

[1324] Isn't that what a law school mascot should be?

[1325] The law professor Joseph Olson says, quote, I think the first shot is justified.

[1326] After the person is no longer a threat because they're seriously wounded, the application of self -defense is over.

[1327] And Sheriff Wetzel from there said that the law doesn't permit you to execute somebody once a threat is gone.

[1328] And at trial, the prosecution alleges that Smith's action shows aspects of lying in wait, and especially like moving his car so that they didn't think anyone was home, lying in wait and compared Smith set up to a deer stand, a hunter would use.

[1329] That's what it made me think of.

[1330] Yeah.

[1331] So, and the jury also learned a little bit about Smith's background, including that he served in the military, and he was trained in surveillance.

[1332] So he, you know, was doing what had been his job, only it was with teenagers.

[1333] The trial last 17 months during which it was debated whether Byron Smith acted in self -defense or killed two teenage intruders in cold blood.

[1334] And on April 29, 2014, the jury deliberated for three hours before convicting Smith on two counts each of first -degree murder and second -degree murder with premeditation.

[1335] That's right.

[1336] He was immediately sentenced, so he didn't get to spend another night with a 16 -year -old in the bunk bed.

[1337] Thank God.

[1338] Immediately sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[1339] Wow.

[1340] Yay.

[1341] Byron Smith's own audio recordings were named by the jurors as the biggest influence on their decision, which is so cocky of him that he thought it would show that he exonerate him, right?

[1342] Like he had no fucking understanding of just humane treatment of people that he thought that this would show, that they deserved it somehow.

[1343] Right.

[1344] So they said that that was the biggest influence, and one of the 12 jurors said that, quote, the audio recordings pretty much convinced me that we were dealing with a deranged individual.

[1345] Some of the jurors later said that they believe Smith had waited a full day before reporting the shootings because he had wanted to see whether other burglars would show up, which makes sense.

[1346] He even unscrewed other light bulbs from fixtures as night fell so that any new intruders wouldn't be able to see in his basement, almost like he was trying to get them more to come.

[1347] After the verdicts, Morrison County Sheriff Michael Wetzel said, quote, this isn't a case about whether you have the right to protect yourself in your home.

[1348] you very clearly do.

[1349] That's a given.

[1350] Rather, this is a case about where the limits are before and after a threat to you or your home occurs.

[1351] So, yeah, which is really cool that the sheriff said that, I think.

[1352] So more than 500 people attended the funeral of Haley and Nick.

[1353] Friends described Haley Kiefer as a kind girl.

[1354] She was a competitive athlete.

[1355] She was into gymnastics, diving, softball, and cross country.

[1356] Nick, friend said, was outgoing and always seemed to be smiling.

[1357] There's like so many photos of him smiling.

[1358] He worked alongside his father at his tree trimming business and, you know, they were kids like we were when we were young, which is just trying to, you know, have fun and making some big mistakes that eventually you straighten out.

[1359] Right.

[1360] In 2016, Smith's attorney sought a new trial, but the Minnesota Supreme Court ruled that the murder conviction stood.

[1361] And the justice has also ruled that they ordered the Kiefer and Brady families be paid more than $19 ,000 to cover the cost of the children's headstones.

[1362] And that is the story of the murder of Haley and Nick.

[1363] Yeah.

[1364] Wow.

[1365] That's fucking heavy as shit.

[1366] Oh my God, Georgia.

[1367] Right?

[1368] What a dick.

[1369] What a tale.

[1370] Yeah.

[1371] It's really sad.

[1372] What a Thanksgiving tale.

[1373] That one is stuck with me since I did it.

[1374] Um, so what's our hometown?

[1375] So, well, the hometown is from the show that you just threw to.

[1376] So basically, clearly, I'm the one that shit the bed during that show.

[1377] Because we would have played the whole thing.

[1378] I didn't think of it that way.

[1379] I must have.

[1380] That is toxic shame.

[1381] And I refuse to let you continue that narrative.

[1382] Stephen doesn't like my work because you thought we shouldn't use my story in that one.

[1383] No, no. maybe maybe the yeah no no no it could any number of things could have happened and sometimes um sometimes what it is like oh stephen's like guys the recording started happening right there's like things like that it is not it's not always um Karen it's not always our call there's over the hundreds and hundreds of live shows we've done or at least couple hundred yeah say there's been a couple technical difficulties here and there that's right so but this hometown is it is we're going back to Minneapolis and it basically is the way we wrapped up the show.

[1384] That means that if this hometown isn't fucking amazing we're going to be mad at you.

[1385] So much pressure.

[1386] No pressure.

[1387] Vince.

[1388] It needs to them.

[1389] This tour's over.

[1390] Yeah.

[1391] The man that made this tour happen, Vince April everybody.

[1392] Thank you.

[1393] He's kept us honest.

[1394] We're all doing our best.

[1395] he's kept us on time so let's fucking do his hometown and hit the bricks yeah for real thank you thanks Benz okay we'll just tell you the rules you know them but I'm going to go over them quickly let us end on a high note tell us a real good story that's from here we would love for it to be Minneapolis or St. Paul or somewhere close by definitely within the state don't bring that other outer state bullshit around we don't want to hear it everyone will hate your guts you need to know it you need to be able to tell it quickly and concisely and it should have a beginning a middle and an end not just this story tonight but any story you ever tell anyone it's very important yeah don't point at anyone if you don't know their story because I will blame you that's right sucks and now if as a group you could decide amongst yourself who has the best story.

[1396] Pick someone.

[1397] And then let the person with the best story stand.

[1398] If you're a teacher, raise both your hand.

[1399] Oh, God.

[1400] Do you want to pick the last one?

[1401] What?

[1402] Do you want to pick the last one?

[1403] No, I think you've been on a roll.

[1404] You do a great job of it.

[1405] Okay, with pink hair.

[1406] Oh, shit.

[1407] Oh, Jesus.

[1408] It's like the price is right.

[1409] Go that way.

[1410] Go that way.

[1411] Oh, no. Come on down.

[1412] How you got to understand how you are hanging up there.

[1413] It makes no sense.

[1414] Gravity.

[1415] From this angle, it looks incredibly dangerous.

[1416] Siri.

[1417] Hi.

[1418] It's Siri, everybody.

[1419] Nice to me. Siri.

[1420] Come over here.

[1421] Where are you from?

[1422] I'm from Egan, Minnesota.

[1423] Suburb.

[1424] Okay.

[1425] Suburb, she said.

[1426] Yes.

[1427] What's your hometown?

[1428] Okay, my hometown murder is the attempted murder of my grandfather, Eldon Underdall.

[1429] So, this is Heartland, Minnesota, 1970, about an hour and a half south of here close to Albert Lee.

[1430] Boo, yeah.

[1431] And so, it's 1970s summer.

[1432] My grandfather is, like, the pastor in town.

[1433] So he performs.

[1434] He's a pastor?

[1435] Yes.

[1436] Was.

[1437] But, um, so he, like, performs all the marriage ceremonies, you know, in town because small town.

[1438] And so there's this couple that is to be married soon.

[1439] small town everybody knows them there's this weird man in town who is secretly obsessed with and in love with the woman in this couple this man is Paul R. Bankstrom and he decides he's going to kill my grandpa to prevent the ceremony from happening Oh my God!

[1440] Very bad logic.

[1441] Yeah, yeah, I think that it would like pause it but I think it's maybe it's a very bad plan.

[1442] Yeah.

[1443] Yeah.

[1444] So one night he drives by my grandfather's house and shoots four bullets into the house one goes into my dad and uncle's room like could have hit one of them I could like not exist you know heavy yeah but like no one dies they like wake up they're like what is that?

[1445] How old are they?

[1446] Like kids are ranging from like 9 to 14 at this point Yeah.

[1447] And so, they're like, what's going on?

[1448] And the, um, my grandparents are like, just go to bed.

[1449] We'll take care of it.

[1450] Go back to bed in the room that just got shot up.

[1451] Yeah, yeah.

[1452] And so, um, but like the man, Paul Benstrom, he just drives to the police department and, like, confesses and turns himself in.

[1453] And so, I mean, he gave up pretty quick, but.

[1454] It is nice.

[1455] Yeah, nice of him.

[1456] It is.

[1457] But, um, so, um, so.

[1458] So, um, he confesses, he gave up So no one in my family got killed, but his mother, who he lived with, he shot and murdered her shortly before driving to my grandfather's house.

[1459] Oh, no. Yeah.

[1460] So, like, the threat is super real.

[1461] Oh, my God.

[1462] 1970s, be warned.

[1463] And he went to prison.

[1464] And so, yeah, it was super hard to find any information about this, but there was, like, a few articles talking about, like, he was getting convicted of, like, attempted murder and, like, second -degree murder.

[1465] and according to my uncle he went to prison so there you go Perfection Yeah Ciri everyone Great job Amazing Great job darling Yes nice Great job Good job Thanks sir Oh my god magical Thank you Thanks for participating You know right now we should thank Everybody that used to come to our live shows Make a poster Stand up Have lit lit up necklaces and flashlights and scream scream to the point where they were threatening us to try to get picked point at their friend that they want to get picked point at random strangers we're sorry you never got picked you'll get a chance yeah looking like around 2023 cannot wait that's right we should do a tour where we just require every audience member to get on stage and tell us any story at all well whatever the whole show the whole 90 minutes is just hometown.

[1466] We don't even have to do homework anymore.

[1467] It's just hometown after home town.

[1468] That's the pitch.

[1469] After hometown.

[1470] We sit on stage.

[1471] We pass the mic.

[1472] Yeah.

[1473] And we're just like, no one's a fucking story.

[1474] Yeah.

[1475] And then we'll decide.

[1476] And then I'll heckle you while you're talking.

[1477] Like in, oh, get me a wine.

[1478] I guess I'm drinking wine by 2023 again.

[1479] You know what?

[1480] Who knows what could happen?

[1481] Who knows?

[1482] God willing.

[1483] Can I just tell you this, it's popped into my head.

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] So Vince Averill, America.

[1486] husband hipped me the last time I saw you guys hipped me to using an app where someone goes grocery shopping for me. Oh, yeah.

[1487] I never used it.

[1488] And then in the beginning of quarantine, people were kind of trying to, it sounded like people were saying they were, it was wrong to use them.

[1489] Okay.

[1490] It was the feeling I got.

[1491] Yeah.

[1492] Or just like, you know, whatever.

[1493] So.

[1494] And Vince, so when I brought that up to Vince, he goes, yeah, just give him a big tip.

[1495] And then they, they're already doing.

[1496] it and then you're saying thank you and you're fine and I'm like I really need to talk to you more often so um today I I ordered it and at one point the guy had to text me and go hey sorry they're all out of Harrowbow sour spaghetti um gummies and I was like it's fine just take it off oh no like I had a conversation and he he no joke he was like they have these and he kept telling me other gummies that they had.

[1497] Just humiliating you after humiliation.

[1498] Hi, Elvis, come here.

[1499] It was almost like, it was almost like bullying, but he was trying to do his job the best he could.

[1500] And I truly was like, it's for the best.

[1501] At one point, I text him, it's for the best.

[1502] Please take it off.

[1503] It's not helping me or you anymore.

[1504] I don't need that.

[1505] But I swear, if you haven't tried Haribo sour spaghetti, I'm telling you.

[1506] Is that the new?

[1507] That's the new one?

[1508] It's a new one because it's, easier, it's easier and less messy to eat than a nerds rope.

[1509] And it also has like, it has a pencil eraser consistency when you're eating it.

[1510] Stress relief.

[1511] So you're kind of like stress relief.

[1512] Exactly.

[1513] Love it.

[1514] Well, thanks for listening, everyone.

[1515] If you got to this far, then you're a true follower, murderino.

[1516] And we appreciate you.

[1517] We love you.

[1518] We appreciate you.

[1519] We hope you're taking it easy.

[1520] Yeah.

[1521] Please, please relax.

[1522] We love you.

[1523] Yep.

[1524] Stay sexy.

[1525] And don't get murdered.

[1526] Goodbye.

[1527] Hi, Elvis, you want a cookie?

[1528] You want a cookie?

[1529] Hi, I'm Kara Klank.

[1530] And I'm Lisa Trager.

[1531] And we are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies that episodes of Law and Order SVU are based on.

[1532] These are our stories.

[1533] Dun -da!

[1534] Tune into our new show, That's Mess Up, an SVU podcast, premiering December 8th on exactly right.

[1535] Every Tuesday, we break down episodes of Law and Order Special Victims Unit, the crimes they're based on, and we interview actors from the show.

[1536] Are we going to try to get Olivia Benson?

[1537] Duh, of course.

[1538] Are we also going to talk to the bartender who doesn't stop unloading glasses while he recounts a murder victim's exact drink order?

[1539] Yes.

[1540] And you might be thinking, oh, no, do I have to have seen all 479 episodes to enjoy the show?

[1541] No, you don't.

[1542] We have done that for you.

[1543] Hello, USA Network.

[1544] Thanks for all your characters.

[1545] We'll take you through the episode and then do a deep dive into the true crime it's based on.

[1546] Look, it's SVU, so we're covering some pretty messed up cases.

[1547] But we're comedians, so we're also, going to talk about Benson's hair.

[1548] Yeah, you're going to get it all.

[1549] Classic cases like Mary Kay LaTerno, Casey Anthony, and Elizabeth Smart, and lesser -known cases like the Ken and Barbie killers, the Collier brothers, and the boogeyman of Westfield.

[1550] Join us as we learn new things.

[1551] Why does anybody go to Hudson University in the SVU universe?

[1552] It is literally riddled with rapes and murders.

[1553] In real life, or on SVU there is always problems.

[1554] Hudson University is not real.

[1555] Oh, it's not.

[1556] Wow, learning something every episode.

[1557] I did not know that.

[1558] And we share super deep observations.

[1559] The news gets out.

[1560] She's a cyberbullier, and there's like a Beauty and the Beast style like brigade.

[1561] Oh, yeah.

[1562] A mob goes to her house, which I always find so funny.

[1563] And it's like in New York City, people don't talk to their neighbors.

[1564] But in this show, people are constantly like at a neighbor's house, like, get out of here, you rapist.

[1565] We've got opinions on judges.

[1566] Judge Palumbo.

[1567] He is disgusting.

[1568] I'm getting chills.

[1569] thinking about this fucking judge.

[1570] Lawyers.

[1571] Buchanan, like, for sure got his law degree at Trump University.

[1572] Suspect.

[1573] So we meet Dizzer Fidelia's baby daddy and he's a true monster wearing gold chains in a t -shirt that says wrecking decks and get in sex and he's, like, DJing somewhere and trying to, like, use slang with iced tea and ice tea's like, I will mother fucking kill you.

[1574] And our powerful, beautiful queen, Mariska.

[1575] I just feel like Marischka Hargetay is physically incapable of having a bad haircut.

[1576] I mean, like, even that spiky, season two look.

[1577] It's like, it's still a serve.

[1578] Like, she does it.

[1579] You know what I mean?

[1580] And all those moments we love SVU for.

[1581] What a twist.

[1582] We learned that this guy learned how to butt chug alcohol via his mother.

[1583] He's been helping his mother butt chug for years.

[1584] And we've interviewed some incredible guest stars who spill all the tea.

[1585] Can I be honest?

[1586] Yes.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] This is truly a scoop I didn't imagine.

[1589] I'm in it in.

[1590] I was like, if I didn't get my interrogation with Mariska, I'm out of here.

[1591] I so appreciate you breaking your no interview rule for us.

[1592] You're asking me this with two minutes to stay.

[1593] So be sure to listen to That's Mess Up and SVU podcast when it premieres Tuesday, December 8th, on exactly right.

[1594] Subscribe right now on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you pod.

[1595] Dun -dun!