300 - The 300th Episode!

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] The 300th episode.

[3] What?

[4] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] Oh, that's Georgia Hard Star.

[6] Thank you.

[7] This is three freaking hundred.

[8] This is their 300th episode.

[9] How many times can I say it?

[10] What does it even mean?

[11] I don't know.

[12] I was just an arbitrary number in the world.

[13] It certainly isn't our 500.

[14] They'll tell you that.

[15] But it feels much different than our 200.

[16] It does.

[17] I mean, any of these little milestones, like in January, it'll be six years.

[18] That feels like a, you know.

[19] That feels like a biggie.

[20] A hugeie.

[21] If you think about it in terms of every episode is a day, we're coming up on our full first year of episodes in a row.

[22] Right.

[23] 365.

[24] Sure.

[25] Okay.

[26] I mean, then maybe that gives some kind of context to the number.

[27] Yeah, yeah.

[28] But it kind of feels like turning like 44, something.

[29] thing where you're like okay sure great no that's good it's I like another year for sure but I don't but it's not like 40 you know we're not getting a facelift yet but we certainly didn't just graduate from high school that's for sure this podcast is in its mid 20s you know but it had a serious drug problem for a while and it kicked it and we're all proud of it it's been strong it's been strong.

[30] But it's also been pretty fucked up.

[31] Yeah, it had to move home a couple times and restart its life.

[32] Who hasn't?

[33] Oh, truly.

[34] And then it like got back on its feet, it's fucking, you know, living its best life.

[35] We've had a full apartment.

[36] We've had a podloft.

[37] Yeah.

[38] We've had our own studio.

[39] Yeah.

[40] And then we had the quarantine journey.

[41] We forgot live shows.

[42] We also had live shows all the time.

[43] Yeah.

[44] And now we have nothing.

[45] But Karen, in Karen's room in Karen's house.

[46] I wouldn't say we have nothing.

[47] That isn't nothing at all.

[48] It's not nothing.

[49] It's so much.

[50] It's so much.

[51] I mean, that's the thing about all of these milestones every single time is like, what the fuck happened?

[52] We started a podcast for fun and now it's like the biggest career we've ever had.

[53] We start a podcast for fun as two people who weren't even sure what the podcast was going to, how it was going to go.

[54] I was just talking recently, and maybe it was on the last episode of this podcast, about the time that I tried to do the Toronto rapist, the Carla Hamulka and whatever the rapist the Cannon Barbie couple rapists.

[55] And I thought I was going to be able to tell you that story off the top of my head.

[56] That's what we thought we were doing.

[57] You can go back and listen to that absolute failure of an episode on my part with no paper in my hands.

[58] Well, you also were working on baskets at the time, right?

[59] A talk show, the game show.

[60] Talk to the game show.

[61] And something else.

[62] And some other show.

[63] Yeah.

[64] So we didn't know yet what was going to happen in our lives.

[65] There was a, it was like podcasting was a thing that I had done in the past that was easy because you just get together and chit -cha.

[66] But then we entered into the world of true crime podcasting, which is an entirely different beast.

[67] Right.

[68] As we now understand.

[69] understand.

[70] Yeah.

[71] Well, at 300, I'll just say that this has changed my life so incredibly that, I mean, I never expected my life to look like what it looks like right now.

[72] And I'm so fucking grateful, grateful to you, grateful to our listeners, grateful to Stephen for coming along with us.

[73] Yep.

[74] Same.

[75] And I just can't, I can't believe how lucky we got.

[76] I mean, it is kind of funny to think about if you were a listener and, hey, what's up day one listeners?

[77] I wish we had a list of your names because we used to meet people like at live shows and stuff would be like day one listener, random scrolling through the podcast app listener.

[78] But we definitely have those people.

[79] Imagine the journey they've been on.

[80] I mean, it's so fun.

[81] And I think that it's true.

[82] And a lot of the people who listen from the beginning and are like, it's so crazy to hear you guys be like, we have 5 ,000 people in the Facebook group.

[83] And now it's like, now we've.

[84] millions and millions of fucking downloads.

[85] It's crazy.

[86] I think the ultimate sign of success is we had to shut that fucking Facebook down.

[87] It got problematic and that's how you know.

[88] It got trolled out of control.

[89] That's right.

[90] And it wasn't a quaint, happy, fun, safe place to be anymore for anyone.

[91] For anyone.

[92] No. And that's where the fan cult exists.

[93] I mean, that's kind of the thing of like as things changed, as things, grew, there was just all kinds of lessons that we had on tape, like recorded for everyone to hear.

[94] Yeah, for sure.

[95] Pretty insane.

[96] What lessons await us?

[97] I mean, in a month and a half when it's six years, what are lessons are we going to learn in that little period of time?

[98] You know what?

[99] Start journaling about the lessons.

[100] Okay.

[101] And then we're going to read our lessons.

[102] Okay.

[103] On year six anniversary.

[104] Yes.

[105] I feel like the biggest thing that this podcast shows is that you just got to fucking try something and do it and have fun with it and good things will hopefully come from there.

[106] And do not expect perfection or make that some kind of a qualifier before you do something as two people who were insanely far from it and thought it was kind of no big deal.

[107] Yeah.

[108] To start with, we then had to grapple with the idea that now we're exposed as being intensely imperfect.

[109] Yeah.

[110] What are we going to do now?

[111] And I'll just say for myself, I think I can speak for you these days.

[112] But right now, I'll say for myself, it's okay to fuck up.

[113] And it's okay to be imperfect because that's what evolution is about.

[114] That's what actually learning and growing is about.

[115] Yes.

[116] And that's the part that you have to pay attention to is the point is to learn and grow.

[117] If you insist on perfection from yourself and everyone, you're never going to be happy.

[118] And then not learning and growing from your mistakes is just this huge miss. It's just huge missed opportunity for you to become a better person.

[119] But you also have to be selective about who you listen to and why you're listening to them.

[120] Yes.

[121] Looking at you, Twitter.

[122] Looking at you all of social media.

[123] But you know, it's like we have been, and we joke about that, but we've actually been insanely lucky because 99 point, I'll say 8 % of all of you listening are some of the most lovely, generous, open, and cool people that we could hope to have a connection with.

[124] Yeah, absolutely.

[125] I just want to say it is really, you mentioned live shows.

[126] It is, we are sad to not be doing them yet.

[127] Yeah.

[128] And we hope to soon.

[129] But that really is, I mean, on top of the fact that we've all been locked in our houses for a year and a half or more.

[130] That's the one thing I really, I miss so much.

[131] Those live shows were some of the greatest moments of my life.

[132] Wow.

[133] Yeah, me too.

[134] Walking out on stage like that and fucking hearing the reaction from the beautiful audience is like, it just fills your entire heart up.

[135] And then in all these cities where you're just like, oh, Pittsburgh can't be, they can't be that interested in us.

[136] And it's a boom or like fucking Oslo, Stockholm.

[137] home Sweden.

[138] Stock home Sweden.

[139] I mean, just nuts.

[140] Oh, we've had so many experiences.

[141] You and Vince have had so many fucking crazy -ass travel live, not even the live show.

[142] That's amazing.

[143] But the travel and the fucking just planning and the meals and the crazy car drives we had.

[144] Many car drives.

[145] Many cracker barrels.

[146] Many cracker barrels.

[147] The fucking Starbucks we've enjoyed a long way.

[148] This is where we've met new.

[149] friends.

[150] Yes, because we forgot our makeup.

[151] One of us forgot our makeup that day.

[152] All the phones I've left and all the bathrooms and all the airports around the world.

[153] Thank you, bathrooms.

[154] Oh, geez.

[155] I miss traveling.

[156] It'll come back.

[157] It'll come back.

[158] Better than ever.

[159] It'll be really, it'll be even sweeter when we get to do it.

[160] That's right.

[161] Yeah.

[162] Just thank you.

[163] 300.

[164] Yeah.

[165] You got us here.

[166] You just kept on tuning in.

[167] You keep on tuning in.

[168] Uh -huh.

[169] We can't thank you enough.

[170] We cannot.

[171] And we won't ever.

[172] And we won't.

[173] And we refuse.

[174] So we're going to stop.

[175] It stops here tonight on the 300th episode.

[176] Never thanking you again.

[177] That's our promise.

[178] Okay.

[179] Speaking of learning things, I have a quick thing.

[180] I learned like a week ago this hand gesture.

[181] Do you know that?

[182] Like the TikTok is making it big.

[183] The hand gesture of domestic violence incidents that you can do to a stranger or someone else to let them know that you need help and to call authorities.

[184] And it's just like, it looks like sign language.

[185] It's this thumb tuck into your palm and then you close your fingers around your thumb.

[186] Yeah, you hold your hand up like you're taking an oath.

[187] You fold your thumb in and then you curl your fingers down over your thumb like the thumb is trapped.

[188] And that's letting other people know I am in a serious situation and I need help.

[189] That's right.

[190] So I just read like a couple days ago that it turns out that a fucking teen who was missing from North Carolina.

[191] You see this?

[192] Yeah, that's how I found out about it.

[193] Oh, okay.

[194] She was rescued by Kentucky police after using that exact fucking hand signal that she'd learned from TikTok.

[195] She was 16 years old.

[196] She was missing.

[197] And she was in the car with her.

[198] Abductor.

[199] And did the hand gesture to someone in a car next to her.

[200] They followed her for like seven miles on the phone with the police.

[201] They pulled the person over and they arrested him because of that fucking hand signal.

[202] Yeah.

[203] How amazing is that.

[204] Yeah.

[205] It's very also because it's like a I've also heard stories of people in a like a domestic violence situation where the the actual abuser is the one that answers the door and is telling the police everything's fine.

[206] Right.

[207] And then the person stands up.

[208] It just goes behind the person and does that.

[209] So they.

[210] I think I'm no it's not.

[211] Yeah.

[212] Oh, it's amazing.

[213] It's very cool.

[214] You know, the children of TikTok, some of whom are grown adults, they're really there.

[215] It's not just dancing over there.

[216] No, it's not.

[217] It's not.

[218] It's not.

[219] It's not.

[220] A lot of social awareness going on.

[221] Can I tell you my favorite thing I've seen on TikTok lately, which is the exact trite opposite of what you just shared?

[222] My favorite is, so it's like every morning I wake up and then I look at the news stories, right?

[223] And it's always something that send you over to TikTok.

[224] There's always some, they have to be telling you about what's popular over there.

[225] About two different animal species hugging each other or playing.

[226] God bless.

[227] Gotta go over there every time.

[228] The things that come up in my.

[229] feed are often makeup based.

[230] Oh.

[231] And this one was try this new TikTok makeup trick that makes men fall in love with you.

[232] And I'm just like, wow, really?

[233] So I hit it.

[234] And essentially, it's little dots that you put on the outer, inner, lower and upper.

[235] So the inner corner, outer corner up and around your eye.

[236] Yeah, like basically your eye is a compass and those are the four points, but tiny white dots.

[237] so I'm like interesting and these the women showing that this is the trick are just like I did this and a guy at the club walked up and is like oh my god I can't stop staring at you meanwhile this girl is so gorgeous where I was like honey you could smear shit under both eyes like a football player and they would do the exact same thing it's not makeup tricks baby you have beautiful enough skin and a face that you can do front -facing close -up makeup tips.

[238] Yeah, right.

[239] There's no. It's also like, it kind of feels very bad to be like, do this thing so a man will fall in love with you.

[240] And it's like, that doesn't exist.

[241] And that shouldn't be your goal in life and makeup.

[242] I mean, true.

[243] Well, hopefully, not shouldn't.

[244] I'm not telling people what to do it.

[245] I'd hope that it's not, you know.

[246] Of the many goals that you have.

[247] How about the makeup trick that gets you?

[248] an MFA.

[249] How about, you know, I mean, but look, that's not, that's not the kind of stuff that people, I wouldn't click on that.

[250] I'm like, what would work?

[251] But then it's just like, you know, really what works of a guy coming up and going, I can't take my eyes off you is being exceptionally beautiful.

[252] Yeah, is being someone who men can't take their eyes off of.

[253] Literally, when my phone, if like I accidentally opened FaceTime, what I see in that phone makes me drop the phone.

[254] So God bless.

[255] No, I'm not.

[256] I'm gorgeous and God loves me. I'm saying it's great to be 22 and talk.

[257] What I love is they're always like, use this base that makes your skin glow.

[258] And it's like, bitch, your skin's glow in night and day.

[259] You're 22.

[260] You couldn't have more estrogen in your system.

[261] You're a fucking oil.

[262] Oh, man, if I thought of the word of it, it had been great.

[263] But an oil, Derek?

[264] No, like a hippie lamp.

[265] One of those things called.

[266] Oh, a lava lamp.

[267] Your face is a fucking lava lamp.

[268] People can't stop staring at it.

[269] Like go.

[270] away.

[271] You don't need tricks.

[272] You don't need tricks or trips.

[273] You don't need fucking makeup, actually.

[274] You're looking great.

[275] Because slap up and some lip gloss and be like, you're lucky to be here, friend.

[276] That's the trick.

[277] That's the true trick.

[278] But getting older.

[279] Still, ding.

[280] Could you imagine if I. It also looks ridiculous, probably.

[281] First of all, part of that, I know that makeup trick from the stage because that's how you, that's how, I should say, like, people on Broadway, um, make their eyes look bigger is you stick a bunch of white makeup in the corner in both corners of your eyes and it basically fakes out.

[282] Yeah, we knew that in the 90s, TikTok girls, okay?

[283] But that, but I like, this is just like, it's these tiny, it's tiny white dots.

[284] So also somebody could walk and be like, were you painting your house earlier?

[285] Maybe they're just, they're also a house painter and they're just excited to talk to you about your trade.

[286] It just doesn't.

[287] sound like something I want to spend my time on, you know?

[288] I had enough energy to put today a little concealer over the bruise that we talked about on the minisode.

[289] And that's about all I had time for.

[290] Took the makeup off from under my eyes, which just never seems to go away, even if I don't wear makeup for weeks.

[291] For real.

[292] And then covered my bruise and maybe a zitter two.

[293] Yeah.

[294] And that's all I've got fucking energy for.

[295] Yeah, the people that are like, first you put on this primer.

[296] Right.

[297] Then you put on the concealer.

[298] I'm already out.

[299] No. Here comes the bronzer.

[300] It's like, What are you doing?

[301] How long every Zoom call I'm on, I have wet hair and, you know, a little bit of mascara if I like you.

[302] Do you know what it is?

[303] It's like the older we get and the more we need makeup, the less we have patience for makeup.

[304] When I didn't, when I was in my 20s and fucking glowing like a fucking lava lamp, I put all the makeup on.

[305] I didn't need it.

[306] Now that I am older and graying and, you know, dehydrated most of the time.

[307] And I can use a little makeup.

[308] Slowly turning into an apple doll.

[309] That's right.

[310] I don't fucking care.

[311] Can't be bothered.

[312] I don't care.

[313] Even the grays I'm getting, which I'm only graying in my right temple, which is really a sexy look.

[314] I would highly recommend.

[315] Oh, dude.

[316] You know about my skunk part.

[317] I do.

[318] We talk about it a lot.

[319] Oh, God.

[320] It's just, it won't go away.

[321] But I mean, yeah, that's exactly it.

[322] The less, the older you get, the less you care.

[323] Yeah.

[324] And the more you should be caring.

[325] Should you?

[326] I don't know because sometimes I see when the older ladies do care and you're like, ooh.

[327] Yeah, yeah.

[328] It's, you know, these days are over for us.

[329] I don't know.

[330] All right.

[331] What do you have going on?

[332] What if I then just read a bunch of makeup tips?

[333] Oh, this is becoming a makeup tip.

[334] I mean, I do like, here's what I do like.

[335] There are people, I think it's amazing and so cool that so many women and especially young women have gotten so good at makeup.

[336] Because then there's some people who are like, here's your five -minute trick or whatever.

[337] They're fucking artists.

[338] They're artists.

[339] And they get to be good at that and make money off of it.

[340] Amazing.

[341] That I love because that wasn't real before.

[342] It used to be four, four shades of that cover girl shit.

[343] Yeah.

[344] I always had a clown mask on.

[345] I was always like, it's got to get better than this.

[346] Yeah.

[347] And it did.

[348] It does.

[349] It did.

[350] So, you know, do all the contouring you want.

[351] It just doesn't work on me. Like, anytime I have like, what's that?

[352] Highlighter on my cheeks.

[353] I look like I'm sweating and a clown.

[354] Like I'm a special.

[355] A special kind of clown.

[356] Hey, it's sweaty the clowns here to yell at you.

[357] Oh, we didn't want her for our birthday.

[358] Too bad.

[359] My thing is, and this is the first time this has ever happened to me. I've watched a series.

[360] Of course, it's British.

[361] Of course it's a procedural.

[362] Of course it stars Martin clones from Doc Martin, which if you need a break, I think I'm definitely in quarantine.

[363] Even my mom love Doc Martin.

[364] Because it's shot on the, I think, the west coast of England as if it ever sees the sun.

[365] So when you watch this TV show, it's like, every day is a beautiful sunny day in this port town of port whatever.

[366] I was going to say Port Charles, but that's days of our lives.

[367] But of course.

[368] Can I also tell everyone that you're doing the gesture of walking around?

[369] I wish I could see it.

[370] This is me walking around in this.

[371] TV show.

[372] That's how you know it's sunny and beautiful every day.

[373] Because Karen's, she's moving her shoulders like she's walking her.

[374] I walk with my shoulders like I'm actually in like some kind of a video.

[375] Yeah, or like you're in a douche commercial walking down the beach.

[376] Yep, waving to people.

[377] Hey, Seleksa or whatever.

[378] I'm hearing to talk about maxi pads.

[379] But that show is a great escape if you want to just.

[380] Doc Martin, you're talking about.

[381] Doc Martin.

[382] It's beautiful.

[383] It's also it's very entertaining, but it's also visually great.

[384] But the star of that show is man named Martin Clune.

[385] This is a wonderful actor.

[386] And he is now in a TV show called Manhunt.

[387] There are two seasons of it and it's about a real Scotland Yard inspector.

[388] I believe it's Scotland Yard.

[389] Or real, let's say, London detective.

[390] Sounds right.

[391] Who has headed up to he's a bunch of but they've made TV series about two of the big cases that he's worked on.

[392] And so I just finished season two.

[393] And it's on, I think it's for acorn.

[394] No, this is unpaid, clearly.

[395] But I did a thing last night where I was waiting, like checking every day for the fourth episode because it was for a four episode series.

[396] And the build, I was like, they got to catch this guy.

[397] Because there was a rapist in London, I think it was the north side of London for 17 years.

[398] Holy shit.

[399] And he got away with it.

[400] And he was only attacking old people.

[401] So it was just like they and they couldn't like they did everything they could and they still couldn't catch them and they finally did.

[402] And so I was waiting for this final episode for so long, spoiler or they got him, that I checked and then it basically had it showed that the episode was there.

[403] So for a long time it was just up to episode three.

[404] Episode four came on but then you couldn't hit play.

[405] And I was like, is it the one where it says like it will be available on November 20, whatever?

[406] they do that on fucking HBO and it drives me fucking crazy because you think you have another episode and then it's like no. It's a teaser kind of or like it'll look like this when you can hit play.

[407] Yes, yes.

[408] So frustrating.

[409] But I just kept going back kind of like my OCD kept bringing me back over and over last night and then finally I think going on to the actual acorn page I got to watch it.

[410] Nice.

[411] And it was so good and then there's a series about the real guy in real life and he tells other stories of stuff he's solved.

[412] So I'm just like so manhunt is that one.

[413] Manhunt is the series there's two seasons of it.

[414] Really good.

[415] And there's a bunch of people that I've already talked about from other TV shows that are in it with him.

[416] Because they use all the same ones all the time because they are fabulous.

[417] I'm still deep in the oxycodone oxy cotton fucking bullshit.

[418] There's a documentary called The Crime of the Century about what essentially we're watching on the TV show Dobsick, and they're both fucking incredible and so infuriating it, but it's so important to find, to know about.

[419] So I highly recommend this.

[420] And Dobsick is a series also?

[421] Yes, Dobsick is a series.

[422] Fucking Rosario Dawson is awesome in it.

[423] Like, it's just a really...

[424] And Michael Keaton, right?

[425] Michael Keaton is fucking fabulous.

[426] Come on.

[427] It's great.

[428] Oh, literally today, just to watch this, just to talk about it, I finished season one of Game of Thrones, finally.

[429] Congratulations.

[430] Oh, my God.

[431] Thank you.

[432] How do you feel?

[433] I feel good.

[434] I already started watching the second season.

[435] Right.

[436] I did love fucking.

[437] She was fucking feeding that baby dragon off her teat.

[438] The mother of dragons?

[439] Oh, yeah.

[440] You get it, girl, because I'd do that to a cat.

[441] If I gave birth to a cat, feed that thing off my teeth.

[442] She could reach into the fire and have them.

[443] That's how everyone knew she was the real deal.

[444] Yeah.

[445] Pretty cool, right?

[446] It was pretty cool.

[447] I like that last scene.

[448] I'm going to keep going.

[449] I'm fascinated by the boy king Like what a little bitch He's such a bitch I love him He's a legitimately bad person And I think there were lots of stories Of that poor boy actor That got confronted When that thing was at the height of its popularity I bet And Peter Dinklage I could just watch him on screen all day long I mean truly a gift All of I mean that whole cast You know so the hound I've already bragged about this But that's I like to say my friend but I mean the dog I hung out the hound the guy with the partly burned face oh I thought you meant the dog that belongs to john snow oh the hound's cool so that's where he was in the book group oh that's right he was one of the stars so I got to meet him when I went and worked on that yeah he's truly one of the sweetest oh nicest Scottish uh gentlemen I I mean of all time and he seeing him in that I'm like, God, he's a good actor.

[450] I really like him, that character.

[451] Yes, but he's like, but he's mean and he's like all business and he's whatever and you're like, God, but then it's like, oh, he's so not like that in real life.

[452] My favorite was when we used to go out after shooting, he was the one that he never understood that I don't drink.

[453] So he'd always go, he go, oh, do you need a drink?

[454] And I go, oh, no, I don't drink.

[455] And then he go, okay, I'll get you next round.

[456] He always thought I meant right then.

[457] Oh, I get it.

[458] It's like when your grandma's like, when you say to your grandma, I'm vegetarian.

[459] And she goes, but what about some chicken?

[460] Yes.

[461] That you just haven't considered.

[462] No, it's not.

[463] How about a nice cider?

[464] How about a cider instead?

[465] Yeah.

[466] Oh, that's great.

[467] You're in the club now.

[468] I'm in it.

[469] I'm in it to win it.

[470] It's going to get so good.

[471] Okay.

[472] Should we do exactly right?

[473] Let's do it.

[474] Cornere.

[475] I mean, there's so many great things happening on the network.

[476] Always.

[477] We are only able to highlight a couple.

[478] That's right.

[479] Or we'd be talking about it all night.

[480] Instead, we have to talk about our own gratitude.

[481] That's much more interesting.

[482] We're very excited because on Berger Weiner's legendary podcast, I said no gifts.

[483] He has from, you know him from Veep, you know him from Detroiters.

[484] You know him from being one of the funniest people around Mr. Sam Richardson is the guest.

[485] So you should definitely go over and listen.

[486] listen to those two talk about gifts and whatnot.

[487] Legendary comedian.

[488] And we didn't say it on the episode last week, but it was the one year anniversary of I saw what you did our film podcast.

[489] So you should definitely go listen to Danielle and Millie talk about that because they've been doing it for a full year.

[490] They know what it's like now to podcast for a living.

[491] And so you have to listen to their movie reviews.

[492] They're doing some amazing ones these days.

[493] Female hosted movie review podcasts.

[494] You guys, we got to support that.

[495] least.

[496] And then also, so now you guys know Karen and I are doing a third episode every week, the celebrity hometowns where we bring a celebrity friend on and they tell us whatever the fuck their hometown is or their favorite story, which is so great.

[497] So this week, you guys, it's already up.

[498] Our guest is none other than Paul freaking holes.

[499] That's right.

[500] He comes and tells us how he got interested in true crime and criminal justice in the first place.

[501] It's incredible.

[502] That's an origin story.

[503] Everyone wants to know.

[504] Yeah.

[505] Why are you yelling at it?

[506] Why are you mad at us?

[507] Oh, by the way, I talked to Michelle Boutot.

[508] She was horrified that she said Sondra instead of Chandra Levy.

[509] She was horrified and she was like, I was so nervous to tell the story correctly.

[510] And I was like, hey, I didn't catch it and I covered that story.

[511] Right.

[512] I didn't either.

[513] We were both just so focused on our friend, Michelle, and getting so being so excited to talk to her.

[514] But obviously, nobody wants anything like that to happen.

[515] So we had a couple of people.

[516] let us know and correct us, which please understand that we knew that the second it happened.

[517] And so apologies for that, obviously that is a mistake and she was horrified.

[518] If we could have gone back and somehow dubbed it, we would have but we couldn't.

[519] Yeah.

[520] So that was just a mistake.

[521] And as we all know, mistakes do happen sometimes.

[522] And yeah, acknowledging that.

[523] All right.

[524] Yeah.

[525] Let's see.

[526] We have Christmas ornaments for sale.

[527] we Frank is just tied up in all of the wiring right now lowering your volume to Georgia oh no it's raising your volume yeah yeah oh no it's caught around the thing see get up here please sorry that see that's I told you oh oh oh I'm okay I'm okay oh okay Frank just walked through all the wires he's very klutzy he pulled one turned George's volume up and then made me kick that fucking metal table with my bare toes so hard.

[528] Oh, that happened a long time after.

[529] No, I was, I'm not klutzy.

[530] You're klutzy.

[531] So get your, not just Christmas, but get your holiday gear, my favorite murder holiday gear, my favorite murder.

[532] Yep.

[533] And also follow exactly right on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and for updates on all of our shows there.

[534] Yes.

[535] Anything else?

[536] I think that's it for the biz.

[537] All right.

[538] Well, I'm first today, right?

[539] Yeah, do it.

[540] Okay, and I will.

[541] In a way, we go.

[542] Let me just put my dots around my eyes.

[543] Oh, now I'm listening.

[544] Now you're going to look at me while I do this.

[545] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[546] Absolutely.

[547] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[548] Exactly.

[549] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

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[560] Oh, this one's twisty tourney.

[561] The sources used today are the National Registry of Exonerations, three St. Louis post -dispatch articles by Tom Eulenbrock by Virgil Tipton, and then one by staff writer, an Associated Press staff article, People Magazine article written by Paula Chin, and the National Institute.

[562] of health, and also there's a forensic files about this.

[563] So, here we go.

[564] In 1986, Patty is working at a 7 -Eleven in St. Louis when she starts dating a frequent customer named David Stallings.

[565] They're both in their mid -20s.

[566] They're like, flirty stuff, and then they eventually get married on August 27, 1988, 1988.

[567] And on April 4th, they welcome a son named Ryan.

[568] The new family moves away from the big city to Hillsborough and they get they move into a home overlooking the lake.

[569] So they're starting their life together.

[570] Around two weeks after his birth, Ryan start, little Ryan starts experiencing health problems.

[571] He can't keep his formula down.

[572] He's vomiting at least once a week.

[573] The problems don't go away, but the stallings is quote, kind of get used to it.

[574] According to People magazine over the July 4th weekend that year, Patty finds three -month -old Ryan, quote, listless in his crib, staring at the ceiling, breathing heavily, and his lips are shut tight.

[575] I know it's awful.

[576] Patty immediately gets in the car and starts driving Ryan to see his pediatrician at Children's Hospital in St. Louis, but she's like panicking.

[577] And so she gets off on the highway too soon and ends up instead going to Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital.

[578] And this is a mistake that will haunt her.

[579] So Ryan is immediately put on a respirator and many tests are conducted.

[580] On July 7th, blood results show a high level of ethylene glycol and acetone in his body.

[581] Ethylene glycol is a colorless, it's sweet, it's found in radiator antifreeze, it's found in industrial solvents, and in resins, and it can be fatal and large enough doses.

[582] The hospital tells the Stallings is that their son has been poisoned with antifreeze.

[583] So the officials at the hospital, they call the sheriff's department and also the Missouri Department of Family Services.

[584] So they start interrogating the couple separately, of course.

[585] The police ask questions, like, does the couple ever fight if Patty's jealous of the baby?

[586] And they even tell David that Patty failed a lie detector test, which isn't true.

[587] The results were just inconclusive.

[588] And of course, lie detector tests either way are bullshit.

[589] David, of course, is like, thinks the police are crazy, that he doesn't believe his wife would.

[590] ever harm their son.

[591] And it doesn't matter what he thinks, of course, because the police are convinced that Patty poisoned her baby.

[592] They theorize that she did it by putting antifreeze in his formula.

[593] And when they do a search of the family home, they find two bottles of antifreeze in the basement and one of them is half empty.

[594] So, of course, real quick, we all know about Munchausen syndrome by proxy.

[595] WebMD describes it as a psychological disorder, marked by attention seeking behavior by a caregiver, often the mother, and essentially that person gains attention by seeking medical help for exaggerated or made up symptoms for their child or who's ever in their care.

[596] And it often makes the symptoms if there are any worse.

[597] So over the next two weeks, Ryan remains in the hospital and his condition improves.

[598] When it comes time to go home, CPS shows up and instead of going home, they take Ryan into custody.

[599] And so Patty and David are only able to see Ryan.

[600] like one day a week at 10 a .m. The visits are totally supervised.

[601] They're not allowed to give him anything edible.

[602] On August 31st, Patty and David visit Ryan like normal.

[603] So this time, Patty's left alone with her son from like three to eight minutes only, like a very short time, which wasn't allowed, but somehow happened.

[604] And then later she feeds Ryan a bottle of formula that the foster mother had prepared.

[605] And everything seems fine.

[606] The Stallings is leave after their weekly visit.

[607] But four days later, Patty and David are notified that Ryan is back in the hospital after showing signs of poisoning again.

[608] And the next day, September 5th, Patty is arrested for assault.

[609] On September 7th, Patty is notified that Ryan only has a few hours to live, but she's not allowed to visit her son.

[610] And Lil Ryan dies in his father's arms.

[611] I know.

[612] It's horrible.

[613] she's not allowed to attend his funeral either and then she's told that she faces first degree murder charges and that the death penalty is on the line.

[614] Wow.

[615] I know.

[616] So around the same time, it almost seems like this different case contributed to this forever around parental murder.

[617] So in 1990, this woman named Paula Sims is convicted and given a life sentence in the death of her six -week -old daughter, Heather.

[618] And she later admitted to also the 1986 death of another one of her infant daughters, Lorelai.

[619] And in both deaths, she initially claimed that an intruder broken and kidnapped the girls.

[620] And it turns out she suffered from postpartum psychosis.

[621] So it's just this horrible story.

[622] And I think it must be in the front of people's minds at the time, too.

[623] So it didn't seem that far -fetched.

[624] A month later, Patty is in jail awaiting trial when she finds out that she's four months pregnant.

[625] On February 17th, Paddy's transported from jail to a hospital where she gives birth to another son named David Jr., and they call him DJ.

[626] Patty's allowed to see her baby exactly two times before he's placed in protective custody.

[627] Less than a month after his birth, on March 3rd, a social worker tells the stallings is that DJ is sick.

[628] He's, quote, listless, he won't eat, he's frequently vomiting, and he has problems going to the bathroom.

[629] of course patty is immediately familiar with these symptoms since they're exactly what little ryan had experienced but patty hadn't been anywhere near him since his birth dj sent to children's hospital in st louis the hospital where patty meant to take ryan but had taken the wrong exit and this hospital diagnosis dj with something called methamelonic acidemia or m m m a according to the national institutes of health m m ms is a rare genetic disorder that affects the body's ability to break down certain parts of proteins and fats.

[630] And this leads to a buildup of toxic substances and bouts of serious illness.

[631] So today, most hospitals screen newborns for MMA, but that was in the case when Ryan and DJ were born.

[632] So why wasn't Ryan diagnosed with MMA?

[633] To explain this, we're going to talk about some science shit real quick.

[634] MMA produces propylene glycol, which is a single carbon atom away.

[635] from being ethylene glycol.

[636] So, yeah, their makeups are so similar that confusing them in the lab is super easy.

[637] So essentially, these baby's bodies make something that's so much like the antifreeze poison that it looks like that it's being given to them when actually it's what their body naturally makes.

[638] Exactly.

[639] Wow.

[640] And if you don't have experience with that exact, very rare genetic makeup, you won't even know what to look for, especially in a random lab.

[641] bet especially too when they're like can you test this baby's blood we think the mom is poisoning them and if the lab already knows that of course they're going to be like yeah you're right look at this yeah so it turns out that's exactly what happened in ryan's case the lab misread ryan's blood test results and thought he had the presence of ethylene glycol when he really had propylene glycol had the lab properly diagnosed ryan he would have been treated with vitamin b12 and he would have lived.

[642] Oh, that's simple.

[643] That's horrifying.

[644] I know.

[645] And Patricia wouldn't have been charged with murder, but that's not what happened.

[646] And this case is still just beginning.

[647] So the Stallings is believed Ryan most likely had MMA, of course.

[648] So new tester performed on Ryan's blood, which had been saved.

[649] Patty's released from jail pending results before her trial.

[650] And the assistant prosecutor tells the media that if the test show that Ryan had MMA, he'll drop the charges.

[651] However, that he has no reason to believe the original tests are inaccurate.

[652] So the blood tests come back and they're the same as before, except this time one lab concludes that both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are present in the blood.

[653] So it doesn't really exonerate her in any way.

[654] And Patty's taken back to jail to face the first -degree murder charges of Ryan.

[655] Patty's attorney tells the trial judge that based on one of the lab's results, Ryan could have died from MMA, but the attorney can't find any medical experts willing to testify, and the judge won't allow DJ's results in court because of that.

[656] So it doesn't seem like the defense attorney fought hard enough to find, you know, evidence to exonerate her.

[657] Well, also, I think that's really saying something.

[658] If the defense attorney was saying they can't find someone, it's like people are saying they don't want to get involved in, right.

[659] in arguing for the fact that that rare disease exists or something?

[660] Right.

[661] Well, as you'll hear, there are experts in it that could have been found.

[662] Paid for.

[663] Right.

[664] Yeah.

[665] That's true.

[666] Yeah.

[667] Maybe.

[668] Money.

[669] In January 1991, Patty's three -day trial begins.

[670] Since her attorney can't bring up Ryan dying of MMA, so they can't even mention that disease.

[671] Her attorney instead tells the jury that he could have died from natural cops.

[672] to which prosecutor George McElroy the third responds, quote, you might as well speculate that some little man from Mars came down and shot him full of some mysterious bacteria, like, you know, calling bullshit.

[673] He says there's no other way to explain how ethylene glycol made its way into Ryan's body.

[674] And police and social workers testified that Patty showed little emotion upon learning about Ryan's death when she was in prison, which we all know, of course, can't be quantified.

[675] on January 31st, Patty's convicted a first -degree murder and assault and a sentence to life in prison.

[676] After hearing the verdict, David, the husband faints it has taken to the hospital.

[677] So he totally still supports his wife and doesn't believe she did anything to the paper.

[678] Well, especially he knows what happened.

[679] Right.

[680] Even before, yeah, now, of course, but even before that, he would, he was like, there's no fucking way.

[681] Yeah.

[682] For her first month in prison, Patty can't sleep or eat.

[683] She loses so much weight that she goes from a size 11 to a size 7.

[684] And then she finds Buddhism, which teaches her to do whatever it takes to survive.

[685] And it's her only way she survives this, she says.

[686] What?

[687] I've never heard Buddhism described like that.

[688] What?

[689] Buddhism is like, do whatever I was a tiger.

[690] You know what Buddha taught anything it takes.

[691] That's right.

[692] That's right.

[693] Squash the little guy.

[694] May I counter suggest that maybe it's.

[695] Buddhism is accepting that life is suffering and that essentially being in the present moment and accepting, you know, that that not wanting things to be different, that level of acceptance actually releases a lot of the pain that people go through, always thinking their life should be different.

[696] Right.

[697] I mean, maybe that.

[698] There you go.

[699] I would just like to be the prosecutor here and argue.

[700] I appreciate that clarification.

[701] Just a personal clarification, I could be wrong.

[702] I don't think you are.

[703] I'm not a Zen master.

[704] You don't think it's that do whatever it takes Eye of the Dagger.

[705] I mean, I bet you there's certain sex of Buddhism where they're like, we can kill you with our hands.

[706] We just are choosing not to in the present moment.

[707] That's what it is.

[708] Okay.

[709] In May 1991, Patty's case is featured on Unsolved Mysteries.

[710] And this dude, Dr. William Sly, who's the professor and chairman of the Department of Biocatian, chemistry and molecular biology at St. Louis University happens to be watching.

[711] Thank God.

[712] Uh -huh.

[713] He contacts Dr. James Shoemaker, who's the director of the university's metabolic screening laboratory, and he says yes, and he ends up testing samples of Ryan's blood.

[714] And he concludes that Ryan did die of MMA.

[715] So thank God this guy was watching.

[716] Yes, for real.

[717] Dr. Schumacher sends the samples containing MMA.

[718] So he sends a sample to seven different commercial labs to see.

[719] who will get it right and out of the seven labs, three of the labs come back with the wrong results.

[720] So that's how easy it is to read the results incorrectly.

[721] So it's just, it's the lab technician reading them wrong.

[722] It's not even them coming out, you know, wrong.

[723] Right, because it's such a fine difference.

[724] It's human error or a human inexperience, I guess.

[725] So prosecutor McElroy still doesn't believe Patty didn't kill her son.

[726] He asked Dr. Sly and Dr. Shoemaker to find an expert on the matter.

[727] And so they go to this guy, Piero Ronaldo, who's a renowned geneticist from Yale, he looks over the results.

[728] He spends the next six weeks investigating the case and determines that the two doctors are correct.

[729] So according to People magazine, Ronaldo says, quote, the scientific findings used to convict Patty were grossly inaccurate.

[730] And he says, technically speaking, I've never seen such lousy work.

[731] It's a classic case of misdiagnosis.

[732] Whoa.

[733] I know.

[734] So finally, this guy, McElroy, the prosecutor, is convinced he actually asks a judge to drop the murder charges and orders a retrial due to the inadequate legal defense she had gotten, not due to the new blood test findings.

[735] So on July 30, 1991, Patty's released and placed on house arrest while she awaits another trial.

[736] And then McElroy tells the media He hopes to bring Patty back to trial again Briefly mentioning that the blood test Might put a hitch in his plans So he's still fucking trying to go after her Then this is kind of surprising to me On September 30th he announces That all charges have been dropped And he personally publicly apologizes to Patty and her family Whoa He's like I was totally fucking wrong He goes, we can't undo the suffering The Stallingses have endured during this ordeal and I apologize.

[737] I hope their lives will be happier and fuller in the future.

[738] Holy shit.

[739] I didn't think it was going to turn like that.

[740] Well, you never, you see so many of these prosecutors, like, just ignoring everything and going after them.

[741] Or then being like, I still think they're guilty, even then when it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they're not.

[742] Or some, there's some often those stories where it's like, and then they were up for re -election so they couldn't lose a case.

[743] Like it turns into stuff that has nothing to do with, what's actually happening.

[744] Exactly.

[745] Well, good for that guy.

[746] Yeah.

[747] And Patty says to the media, they can't put a price tag on what they've taken from me. No. Once she's released, she's finally able to mourn the loss of Ryan.

[748] She tells the St. Louis Post -Dispatch, quote, I've not concentrated on that a lot because I knew that it would break my strength.

[749] And I needed what little strength I had left to make it through this.

[750] Maybe now I can start accepting this now that the big fight's over.

[751] A little 19 -month -old DJ, who has spent his entire life in protective custody, is finally allowed to go home to his parents.

[752] And what I heard mention about this, that's interesting, is that for some reason, he still wasn't allowed to go home with his dad, even though it was Patty that was accused.

[753] But if he had gone home with his dad and gotten sick, maybe the dad would have ended, like, they wouldn't have, because, you know what I mean?

[754] Yes, that makes sense that they couldn't risk, they weren't going to risk another child's life thinking that she some or she or they somehow poisoned their first child they couldn't but if he had gone home with the dad and gotten sick they would have just said that they both poisoned him instead of them finding out that he was actually sick so it's almost it sucks but it's kind of it's smarter it's a fortuitous thing that he didn't go home with his dad yeah it's the protection actually served everybody right so he had only met his mother the day he was born so so not having a bond with her child is extremely difficult for Patty.

[755] If she powers through it, she has to learn how to care for a child with MMA, since she never got the chance to do that with Ryan.

[756] DJ has to be fed through a tube, sickness like the flu or colds can be life -threatening.

[757] So get your healthy kids vaccinated for the ones who can't.

[758] That's right.

[759] But Patty and David try to focus on spending as much time as possible with their son while they can.

[760] So David and Patty, they sue Cardinal Glenn in Hospital.

[761] They sued the St. Louis University Hospital.

[762] They sued the doctors, Smith -Klein -Beacham clinical laboratories where the labs were misread.

[763] In total, in 1993, they were awarded several million dollars.

[764] Yeah, I bet.

[765] The next year, McElroy, the prosecutor's out for re -election, Patty donates $10 ,000 to the campaign of McElroy's opponent.

[766] Oh, shit, Patty.

[767] Yeah.

[768] Yeah.

[769] Yeah, and the opponent ends up winning.

[770] That's Robert Wilkins.

[771] still that guy apologize i that's big i'm sorry that's what we were just talking about like you got to take responsibility for her i mean he did he did the bravest thing yeah yeah sadly patty's heartache doesn't end when she's paid in millions she and david eventually split in 2013 dj passes away at the age of 23 although i'm not it can't find what causes his death there's so little information after the 90s on this entire family um david stall The father dies after a long illness in 2019, but I can't find a lot of information about Patty after that, but clearly she was a very strong woman who powered through with the help of Buddhism and being a badass.

[772] And that is the case of Patty Stallings.

[773] I mean, I would imagine she wants nothing to do with being in the public eye in any way, because that's what a horrible situation to have been in.

[774] and the amount of loss, even before she went to jail.

[775] I mean, just like, that's horrible.

[776] Wow.

[777] Terrible.

[778] That's fascinating.

[779] It just, wow, I've never heard of it.

[780] Yeah.

[781] I think I definitely saw the unsolved mysteries way back when, when I was a kid about it.

[782] So it's always kind of stuck with me. I think there was definitely a Law and Order SVU that was similar where the mother was arrested for poisoning her child, but it actually, they traced it back to something in the formula.

[783] Yeah.

[784] Okay.

[785] This week for our 300th episode, I'm going to tell you the story of the Chippendales murder.

[786] Ooh.

[787] Do you know this one?

[788] I've been hearing things about it lately, but I don't know about it.

[789] Okay.

[790] So this has hit the pop culture scene that you, I know you love to hang out in lately because there's all kinds of projects going on about it.

[791] And I just saw an article.

[792] and was like, the what?

[793] Yeah.

[794] And just looked it up and I simply can't believe that it's real and that I never heard about it before.

[795] Yeah, I don't know the details at all.

[796] Okay, awesome.

[797] Well, I'm going to tell you.

[798] So sources for this, a lot of the names of the articles give away what I'm talking about.

[799] So I'm just going to tell you, there's an article for ABC 7 Chicago by Emily Whip, Boas, Haliban, Jekadate, Glenn Ruppel, and Lauren Ephron.

[800] There's an L .A. Times article by Edward J. Boyer.

[801] There is a New York Times article by Todd S. Purdom.

[802] There is an article for grunge .com by Karen Corday.

[803] Wikipedia article, a couple of Wikipedia articles.

[804] There's an L .A. Times article by Henry Weinstein.

[805] The Heavy .com had an article with no byline in it about this topic.

[806] And of course, People Magazine, there's an article.

[807] article by Christina Duggan.

[808] And then there was one for the Independent by Phil Reeves.

[809] Those will all be listed in detail on the in the show notes.

[810] Okay.

[811] So this starts April 7th, 1987.

[812] Okay.

[813] So we're back in the height of the triangle neon pink.

[814] You know it, you love it, the 80s.

[815] Coke fueled.

[816] Coke, Coke.

[817] Coke, Classic.

[818] New Coke.

[819] have already been premiered.

[820] I'm not sure.

[821] Crystal Pepsi was out and about.

[822] We had a jazzer size had already hit and peaked.

[823] It was an amazing and a very fertile time in America.

[824] So 46 -year -old Nick DeNoya is working in his Manhattan office on the 15th floor of his West 40th Street office building.

[825] He's a TV producer and director.

[826] He's also a choreographer and a two -time Emmy Award winner.

[827] winner for his NBC kids show Unicorn Tales.

[828] Hmm.

[829] Don't remember that.

[830] And that's prime kid show time for me. Yeah.

[831] It was an Emmy Award winner.

[832] Maybe that was too high quality for you.

[833] Oh, yeah.

[834] I want trash.

[835] Give me trash.

[836] In 87.

[837] Yeah.

[838] But Nick's most recent and arguably most lucrative venture has been choreographing original dance numbers for the world famous male dance review, Chip and Dales.

[839] Damn.

[840] That guy's got a fun life, I think.

[841] I think so.

[842] So if you grew up in the 80s, you knew about the Chippendales dancers, which is very strange.

[843] They were male strippers that had basically been brought to pop culture.

[844] Well, it's almost like Playboy a little bit, too, where it's like, if you're a kid, you still know what Playboy is.

[845] It's still this like, woo, taboo, fun thing.

[846] No, I just tried to look it up to see.

[847] It felt to me, like, I'm sure there was a Donahue episode about Chip and.

[848] Because I feel like I saw them.

[849] Of course, there's the infamous and insanely hilarious Saturday Night Live sketch with Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley, where they are both Chippendale's dancers.

[850] That really is one of the funniest and most legendary sketches of all time.

[851] That was from like 1990, I think.

[852] But Chippendales was so huge.

[853] And they were such a kind of like a cultural turning point.

[854] They were really big But I also Like it's too early But I had memories of them Making like a guest appearances On like the love boat Yeah The love boat is two 70s Like I just knew that they were around And as like a Maybe Dallas Were they on an episode of Dallas?

[855] Yeah I bet you on shows People would go see Chippendales Yes And then that's how kind of like I as a 13 year old Wouldn't know about them No it was a known quantity They were everywhere Yeah So Nick Dinoia was a big part of the international national success of Chippendales.

[856] Yeah.

[857] Are you going to talk about what they wore too?

[858] Because I feel like you need to have a picture in your head of what they were wearing.

[859] Okay.

[860] So if you are a Gen Zier, you're just like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[861] This was an all -male stripper dance troupe.

[862] Yeah.

[863] And they wore black spandex pants.

[864] Yeah.

[865] No shirt.

[866] Yeah.

[867] White cuff.

[868] Like, like, um, tuxedo cuffs.

[869] Tuxedo cuffs and tuxedo collar and like a little bow ties.

[870] Yeah.

[871] Which was actually, and I will talk about this later, a rip off of the Playboy, um, playboy outfit that women used to wear.

[872] So they kind of appropriated that slightly.

[873] This was very like the 80s idea of sexy men, which is a ton of like feathered hair, mustaches, very hairy chests, very oiled chest.

[874] Like cut and fucking worked out.

[875] high house yes they were these were you know a strippers male strippers but they were like you know the like real high class real like they look like male models and when you look at pictures of them now you're like oh these actually all look like gay porn stars yeah because that was like the big mustache and the chef's kiss of male models yeah truly just real adonis okay so essentially this is a business that in 1987 was just like couldn't have been huger.

[876] So around 3 .40 on April 7, 1987, an unnamed business associate goes to Nick's office to go talk to him and he finds him dead on the floor of his office.

[877] He's been shot through his left cheek.

[878] And when the police arrive on the scene, they note a bullet wound from a large caliber gun has been used.

[879] And based on the position, on the floor, it looks like Nick was shot as he was just sitting at his desk when the murderer fired.

[880] There's no signs of a struggle and nothing seems to be missing or stolen.

[881] So it's immediately very suspicious.

[882] Captain Edward Monogue leads the investigation and witnesses tell him that they saw a man about between 35 and 40 years old, possibly Hispanic, approximately 5 '7, 145 pounds, who had been hanging around Nick's office and around the building before the shooting.

[883] and after the shooting.

[884] They described this man as being clean -shaven, having either black or salt and pepper hair, wearing a dark tan jacket and jeans.

[885] So they immediately start digging into Nick DeNoya's business history for possible suspects and motives being that the murder took place in his office.

[886] So the year before, Denoia ran a traveling Chippendale's troop under the name Chippendale's Universal.

[887] So the troop was associated with the official Chippendale, company, but Chippendale's Universal was an independent organization that paid royalties to the original Chippendales company.

[888] It was like a, what's it called?

[889] Like a franchise.

[890] So the general manager of the New York Chippendales Club was a man named Thomas Lord, and he said that Dinoa had recently parted ways from the Chippendale Company altogether, Chippendale's Company altogether.

[891] So we'll go into the history of Chippendales.

[892] So it was started in 1979 by a Los Angeles entrepreneur named Soman, but nicknamed Steve Banerjee.

[893] So Steve Banerjee was born in what's now Mumbai, India on October 8th, 1946.

[894] He emigrates to the United States in 1969 and settles in Los Angeles.

[895] So when he first gets to L .A., he owns a couple gas stations.

[896] He works at them as an attendant.

[897] He tries to do a bunch of other business things.

[898] Like he tries to kind of work his way through different businesses.

[899] None of them go very well.

[900] Then in 1975, he decides to buy a bar that's over on the west side of L .A. And he names it Destiny 2, Roman numeral too.

[901] So he has these dreams of like a successful nightclub.

[902] So to drum up business, he tries all kinds of entertainment.

[903] So he tries, of course, exotic dancers, magic acts.

[904] There's even female mud wrestling, which was, remember, all the rage back in the late 70s, early 80s?

[905] It was.

[906] So gross.

[907] But none of that really hits and nothing takes off.

[908] Then in 1979, Steve takes some very fateful advice from a bar regular, a guy who calls himself the Canadian pimp.

[909] This man tells Steve that he should try hosting an all -male strip show so that women come to his bar.

[910] And this man's name is Paul Snyder.

[911] So that name might sound familiar to you.

[912] And that's because he was the boyfriend of Playboy Playmate Dorothy Stratton.

[913] Oh.

[914] Yep.

[915] And the two had very recently moved to Los Angeles from Vancouver, Canada.

[916] Because he, Paul Snyder, had sent Dorothy's nude photos into Playboy.

[917] And she immediately, they were like, moved down here.

[918] You're in the magazine.

[919] She immediately got into, got movie parts.

[920] She, like, her career took off huge.

[921] The next year, she was playmate of the year, 1980.

[922] And, of course, Paul was like Spangali -like guy.

[923] He made her marry him.

[924] He became her, quote -unquote, manager.

[925] So he thought he was a mover and shaker in Los Angeles.

[926] And the more successful Dorothy Stratton got, the angrier he got.

[927] There was a lot of cocaine involved.

[928] He ended up murdering Dorothy Stratton and then killing himself.

[929] Yeah.

[930] It's a plot of the movie star 80.

[931] It's very infamous.

[932] and Paul Snyder is the guy who gave Steve Banjury the idea to start Chippendales.

[933] That is wild.

[934] And it was Dorothy Stratton's idea for the dancers to wear cuffs and...

[935] Holy shit.

[936] Just like Playboy Bunnies.

[937] She basically was like, oh, you got to do this.

[938] Isn't that insane?

[939] What a weird little tidbit.

[940] It's like the creepiest true crime crossover ever because apparently their apartment was in West L .A., probably near where this bar was.

[941] So, like, I guess it was their hangout.

[942] It's so strange.

[943] What the fuck?

[944] Yeah.

[945] And here's the thing.

[946] You know, Paul Snyder, he had, he was trying to be a mover and shaker in the business.

[947] And the truth was, he was right.

[948] This was an idea whose time had come.

[949] Yeah.

[950] Because basically the timing of this of like, it be like turning, you know, the 80s beginning was this time or women for the first time were like going to work.

[951] on mass that there were working women women were independent they had their own money they weren't getting married right away like that whole birth control pill birth control pills i mean women were it was the beginning of it was like first wave feminism where people were like i don't immediately have to get married and have a kid to have my life be full and suddenly there was this place and this was aside from of course gay bars where men would be dancing for each other yeah this was the first ever all -male strip show that was catered toward women wow so immediately he starts doing this this all -male strip club night and women are lining up around the block shit so he decides to rename the bar chippendales and he and the idea is because he's naming it after an 18th century furniture designer like chippendale's furniture is like the most expensive fanciest furniture because to steve that name represented pure class.

[952] And that was one of...

[953] Oh, I did not know.

[954] It was named after that.

[955] Yeah.

[956] So he's basically trying to do upscale strippers for women.

[957] Because now instead of it being, you know, like down by the airport or whatever, it's kind of like saying, this is a high class kind of form of entertainment.

[958] Yeah.

[959] Where you can come and essentially, like, it was allowing women to arguably, for, you.

[960] for the first time ever, go out with their friends, celebrate their sexuality freely in a public space and feel like safe about it and good about it and almost feel like it's this commercial endeavor as opposed to they're sneaking into some bar and it's kind of dirty and it's empowering too because you're going to make the cat calls at the men now.

[961] Like especially back then it was like that cat calls were like everyone thought it was a form of fucking flattery all the men did.

[962] And now it's like the women got to take that back and start being the fucking objectifiers.

[963] Exactly.

[964] It was complete role reversal.

[965] And essentially, these men of Chippendales were gorgeous, smiling, oiled up into it.

[966] They were voluntary sex objects.

[967] They were dressed like construction workers, firemen, doctors, and all of these all -female audiences were basically saying, it's our turn to objectify you now.

[968] Yeah.

[969] And they were fucking coming in droves to do it.

[970] They were throwing their money.

[971] at these men.

[972] The whole thing was, you know, would we say empowering?

[973] I don't know, but it was freeing.

[974] It was freedom, the freedom to kind of do the thing you thought you would never be able to do.

[975] And it really was like a lightning bolt culturally.

[976] So Steve obviously sees and knows that he's got a hit on his hands.

[977] So he aims to make Chippendales the most lucrative club in Los Angeles.

[978] So this I love.

[979] There's the fire.

[980] code capacity for his building was 299 people.

[981] He consistently exceeds the number.

[982] At some nights, he had 600 women in this club.

[983] Oh, my God.

[984] And there's a picture.

[985] There's an amazing picture I'll show you after.

[986] It's a stripper leaning into a crowd so that a woman can give him money.

[987] I think they're kissing, actually.

[988] First of all, every woman looks like everybody looked when I was a senior in high school.

[989] Like, that kind of like your hair was really curly but it was also a buy level.

[990] Yeah.

[991] And a lot of triangle earrings.

[992] Shoulder pads.

[993] Tons of shoulder pads.

[994] But like they're sitting so, so normally it would probably be, you know, like there's the floor where the dancers are performing.

[995] There's some steps up and then there's, you know, cocktail tables along the back.

[996] But there are women sitting on the steps, sitting on the floor.

[997] The way the guy is leaning, his package is right in this girl's face.

[998] Like, it's hilarious.

[999] There's women packed in.

[1000] Oh, my God.

[1001] They're all, like, overjoyed.

[1002] Every woman is, like, smiling and going crazy.

[1003] Oh, my God, I love it.

[1004] So it's, I mean, it must have been, I would have killed to be those early days.

[1005] It must have been insanity.

[1006] And almost like those, like the early Beatles concerts where it's like teenage girls screaming out all of their anxiety and all of their like, oh my God, I love John Mennon.

[1007] And up anger and all these things.

[1008] All of it where it's like this, this thing is happening that they've never been able to do before.

[1009] and now they get to do it, and everyone's into it.

[1010] Oh, my God.

[1011] I got to ask my mom if she went there because...

[1012] Janet was fucking in the front row.

[1013] You know it.

[1014] I bet she went after work one time, like with her girlfriends.

[1015] Right?

[1016] Do me to text her.

[1017] Do it.

[1018] Oh, my God.

[1019] Okay, so I'll keep telling you.

[1020] So basically, at least twice the LAPD had to raid the club because of capacity and safety code violations.

[1021] But then the raids made the nightly news, which then spread the word that there was an all -male strip club.

[1022] in Los Angeles, so even more customers flocked to Chippendales.

[1023] And then the rumors start to circulate that Steve was the one who was filing the complaints so he could get free PR on TV.

[1024] So, of course, word spreads across L .A. like crazy.

[1025] And because it's L .A., the club gets more and more hotter and hotter young men who are, of course, acting hopefuls that have moved to town.

[1026] They're like, no, I could dance.

[1027] I could strip or whatever.

[1028] You know, they want to make a quick buck.

[1029] There's an endless supply of guys like that, like untapped.

[1030] Yeah.

[1031] So these dancers really were, like, if you look up, they were the picture of like 80s male hotness.

[1032] Which is so weird now because you're like, that looks like a dad.

[1033] That looks like a 40 -year -old dad.

[1034] It's like a 22 -year -old actor.

[1035] It's so funny.

[1036] Everybody looked so much older in the 80s.

[1037] What is it?

[1038] Like, I guess it could be perspective.

[1039] Do they drink a lot of milk?

[1040] Well, also, it was just like it was the style, I don't know.

[1041] But like the guys that were seniors when my sister was a freshman, I remember looking for a yearbook, they looked like 30 -year -old men.

[1042] It's a weird thing.

[1043] Yes.

[1044] It's a weird thing.

[1045] So, yes, 100%.

[1046] There was a guy that was a senior and my sister was a freshman.

[1047] She would talk about how when they would do volleyball for PE, he would hit the volleyball just with his elbow.

[1048] Like, it was no big deal.

[1049] And it would just like make them go insane.

[1050] It was a different time.

[1051] It was a very different time.

[1052] It was a very footbally kind of like...

[1053] Jock.

[1054] The steals, the Steelers and the Rams and whatever.

[1055] Yeah.

[1056] It was Jock Central.

[1057] Yes.

[1058] And this was like the jocks were dancing for your pleasure.

[1059] Okay.

[1060] I mean, that's a pretty nice turn.

[1061] All right.

[1062] I think.

[1063] We'll take it.

[1064] Okay.

[1065] So one such talent was a man named Reed Scott who auditioned to be a dancer in the early 80s, probably like 81 he gets the job then he works his way up from dancer to he becomes the emcee of the whole show and then he eventually starts working on the business side and the business is exploding of course so in 1981 banjury hires tv producer and director nick denoia to choreograph the dancers move so i think in the beginning it was kind of like just come out and strip and do what you can nick denoia comes in with that you know the tv showbiz kind of thing and is like No, no, no, no, this needs to be like, this needs to be a show.

[1066] Like a put on a Vegas style show almost.

[1067] Yes, exactly.

[1068] So at first, they all come out in their cuffs and their bow ties.

[1069] They all have the same outfit on.

[1070] A woman named Candace Marin, who was the associate producer for Chippendales at the time, said, Nick De Noia's real skill, quote, as a choreographer and a director, was coming up with moves that a great big, muscled guy could perform and look graceful while doing it.

[1071] Amazing.

[1072] So they were essentially casting for obviously.

[1073] for looks.

[1074] You didn't have to be a great dancer.

[1075] Of course not.

[1076] But then you know, so they would make dances that you could get away with it.

[1077] But then of course I'm sure after a while you had your Patrick Swayze type who were like, oh and guess what I am also a professional dancer.

[1078] So watch this.

[1079] Five, six, seven, and eight.

[1080] Chippendales becomes so popular.

[1081] Steve opens a second club in New York City in 1983, then one in Denver, then one in Dallas.

[1082] Damn.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] So that's when Nick De Noia comes up with the idea of starting a traveling Chippendales dance troupe so they could bring the exotic male dance sensation to all the cities in the country that didn't have their own home Chippendales club, which is genius.

[1085] So smart.

[1086] So smart.

[1087] It's immediately a hit and it starts earning the company additional millions every year.

[1088] Wow.

[1089] So as we all know, with great success comes great bickering.

[1090] Steve Banderie and Nick start fighting over their different.

[1091] freeing creative visions for both the club act and for the company itself.

[1092] Reed Scott was there watching his bosses go, quote, toe to toe and just scream and curse at each other.

[1093] That was from article in People magazine.

[1094] So in 1984, Steve and Nick settle on a deal, and this was literally written on a bar napkin, where Nick Dinoa can continue running the touring troop under the Chippendale's name, but he and Steve will split the profits of that 50 -50.

[1095] But Steve is incredibly competitive.

[1096] He is incredibly paranoid.

[1097] And he wants it all to himself.

[1098] Yeah.

[1099] It's kind of that mistake a lot of people make where it's like, hey, guess what?

[1100] This was actually Paul Snyder's idea.

[1101] First of all, and then, you know, whatever it was when it started, which would be I would love to see when it started.

[1102] The cool thing is, well, there's movies coming out.

[1103] There's actually, there's been a. bunch of like made for TV movies about this case which is crazy because I've never heard or seen any of them but more importantly there is a podcast that came out this year by a historian named Natalia Petrazella and it's called Welcome to Your Fantasy and it's all about this case and about Chippendale so if you want I didn't listen to it but I bet it's amazing so if you want the like drilled down details that is what you should listen to, welcome to your fantasy by Natalia Petrazzella.

[1104] So anyway, so Steve is trying to basically hold on to everything and keep it for himself.

[1105] So he starts getting really paranoid.

[1106] He hates seeing that Nick is getting the like recognition with the success of the touring act.

[1107] It's like almost like Nick's getting everything in his mind.

[1108] And he also, he's bummed at that like that Nick's getting the credit and that also he starts to get paranoid that Nick is keeping more than 50 % for himself.

[1109] So this jealous paranoia builds and builds as the company grows in fame and popularity.

[1110] So it's just getting worse.

[1111] I didn't see anything that said anything about drugs, but it was the 80s.

[1112] Of course.

[1113] At a club, a nightclub.

[1114] A nightclub in the 80s.

[1115] This is alleged.

[1116] This is editorial.

[1117] I'm just saying my opinion, Coke was fucking everywhere.

[1118] Coca -Cola.

[1119] Coca -Cola.

[1120] And also, these are like male dancers.

[1121] Right.

[1122] So, like, I'm sure you need a little chute to get out.

[1123] there and you know like come on that it must have been part of it absolutely but but that's my opinion that's mine too could be made up listen to welcome to your fantasy to get the real story because that'd be hilarious if natalia was just like guess what this was an a a strip club there was not a dime of coke to be had um okay so so we're back to 1987 when that when the murder took place There's two years of investigating Nick Dinoa's murder.

[1124] It's the case has gone cold.

[1125] In 1988, Steve Banjuri buys back the full rights to the Chippendale's touring company from Dinoa's family.

[1126] So now he has everything again.

[1127] In the early 90s, other entrepreneurs follow in Chippendale's footsteps and launch their own male exotic dance acts.

[1128] One is a British -based strip act called Adonis.

[1129] They started in 1991 by several ex -chipendale's dancers.

[1130] and it's managed by former Chippendale employee, Steve White.

[1131] So this is a 16 -man dance troupe that's operating out of England, and they hire Reed Scott as their MC.

[1132] So the original guy from the club goes to do this.

[1133] Reed Scott just left Chippendale's the month before, and he's really excited to be in England.

[1134] It's like a new country, new venture.

[1135] But Steve vines out about Adonis, and he is enraged.

[1136] So then in July of 1991, an informant by the name of Strawberry, which everyone thinks might be a fake name.

[1137] Contacts an FBI agent in Las Vegas named Scott Garriola.

[1138] And Strawberry tells Garriola that an L .A. based man named Ray Cologne has offered him $25 ,000 per person to kill three targets in Blackpool, England.

[1139] Holy shit.

[1140] Adonist dancer Michael Fullington, Adonis manager, producer Steve White and Adonis M .C. Reed Scott.

[1141] Oh, my God.

[1142] So, dude.

[1143] They're all, as I just said, ex Chippendales, dancers, and employees.

[1144] And according to this informant strawberry, Ray Cologne gave him an eyedropper filled with cyanide.

[1145] And he was instructed to inject it into these men.

[1146] Holy shit.

[1147] Where do you get cyanide from?

[1148] The same place you get Coke from?

[1149] I mean, I guess.

[1150] It seems like it's a different trip.

[1151] It seems like it'd be really hard to find.

[1152] It seems like it's the end of it's like, yeah, it wouldn't be a nice combination.

[1153] Okay, so the same month, Reed Scott's on stage kicking off an Adonis performance in the resort town of Blackpool, England.

[1154] One of his bosses goes on stage and pulls him off mid -sentence.

[1155] He's taken to a back office where he meets officers from Scotland Yard who inform Reed that a hit has.

[1156] been taken out on him, him and the two other Adonis employees and that their lives are in danger.

[1157] Reed Scott would later tell People magazine, I got this cold chill as the detective told me, you can run and hide or you can stay and we can catch the killer before he gets to you.

[1158] It was like something you hear in a movie.

[1159] It didn't seem like real life.

[1160] And then that's when Reed told the officers, this has got to be Steve Bannergy.

[1161] Yeah.

[1162] So Reed Scott, Michael Fullington and Steve White, they didn't run and hide, they did continue to play it cool and let the investigation continue as they did their job.

[1163] So the FBI follows Strawberry's lead to Ray Cologne, and when they search Cologne's home, they found 46 grams of cyanide, which is enough to kill 230 people.

[1164] So Cologne's arrested on the spot, and he's charged with conspiracy and murder for hire.

[1165] So Cologne remains in custody for the next seven months.

[1166] before he decides to cooperate with authorities.

[1167] He confirms that it is indeed Steve who hired him as a hitman, not just to kill Michael Fullington, Steve White, and Reed Scott, but also for the 1987 murder of Nick Danoia.

[1168] Colon reveals that in the case of Dinoa, he farmed that hit job out to another man named Gilberto Rivera Lopez.

[1169] So when the FBI look up Lopez, they see he's already in prison for an unrelated crime.

[1170] So Banner G knows that Ray Cologne was recently arrested, so he suspects that this is a sting operation.

[1171] So he enters the restaurant, he greets Ray Cologne by putting a finger to his lips and directing him to follow him into the bathroom.

[1172] And there, Banner G has C. has Cologne stripped down to ensure he's not wearing a wire.

[1173] But luckily, the mic had been sewn into the boxers.

[1174] So Banner G. can't see it.

[1175] But any time, still, any time Ray Cologne asks a question, Banner G writes his answer on a post -it note, holds it up, and then rips it up and throws it in the toilet.

[1176] That's kind of smart.

[1177] So nothing's on tape and the IHOP staying is a failure.

[1178] Yeah.

[1179] So the FBI has to come up with a new plan.

[1180] So they take Ray Cologne to Switzerland, where he tells Steve Bannergy that he's fled police custody and found asylum abroad.

[1181] Smart.

[1182] Right?

[1183] So the idea of an escape.

[1184] rather than a release, makes Steve feel more comfortable about talking, so he agrees to go meet Cologne in a hotel room in Zurich.

[1185] So there, the two men discussed the murder for higher plots.

[1186] Steve's a bit apprehensive at first.

[1187] He even goes so far as to say at one point that he feared the FBI might be listening in the next room, which they literally were.

[1188] Of course they were.

[1189] But Ray Cologne is able to calm Steve down.

[1190] They end up talking for three to four hours.

[1191] And during that conversation, Steve brings up the code word for Nick Danoia, which is the D, they say, unfortunately.

[1192] And he asked Cologne if the FBI knows anything about that or about the fact that he'd given Ray Cologne the money to buy guns for these hits.

[1193] The FBI catches Banner G on tape not only confessing to hiring Ray Cologne to murder Nick Danoia, but also the attempted murders of Reed Scott, Michael.

[1194] Fullington and Steve White.

[1195] So on September 2nd, 1993, Steve Banerjee is arrested and he's charged with conspiring to kill his three former employees.

[1196] He pleads guilty to the charges as well as the charges of racketeering and a surprise twist, two counts of arson.

[1197] Because it turns out that in 1979, there was a Santa Monica, a club called Moody's disco and they attempted to run a mail strip show of their own.

[1198] So Steve Banerjee hired someone to burn Moody's disco to the ground.

[1199] Holy shit.

[1200] Greed, man. They talk about in the songs, burn it down.

[1201] Greed.

[1202] Luckily, the fire did little damage and Moody's was only temporarily closed.

[1203] So they didn't really do anything.

[1204] But then five years later in 1984, Bannergy launches a similar attack on the popular Marina Del Rey Nightclub The Reds.

[1205] Red Onion, because they started a male strip show.

[1206] But again, the arson attempt is unsuccessful.

[1207] Banner G. pleads guilty to all the charges.

[1208] He faces 26 years in prison, and he'll be forced to give up ownership of Chippendales.

[1209] But on October 23, 1994, the day before his sentencing, Steve Bannergy uses a bed sheet and a wallhook and strangles himself to death in his jail cell.

[1210] Fuck.

[1211] Yeah.

[1212] So, Gilberto Rivera Lopez, who's the man who, who.

[1213] who's hired to kill Nick De Noia in his Manhattan office gets charged for Nick's murder.

[1214] He's convicted of second -degree murder and he's sentenced to 25 years to life.

[1215] And then Ray Colon, the hit man who orchestrated Nick DeNoya's murder, as well as the failed hit attempts on Steve White, Reed, Scott, and Michael Fullington.

[1216] He pleads guilty to conspiracy and murder for higher charges, but his sentence is reduced because of his cooperation with the FBI and his, you know, his help with taking Steve Bannergy down.

[1217] He's released from prison in 1996.

[1218] Wow, that's a quick.

[1219] Yeah, because he collaborated or cooperated.

[1220] The informant who contacted FBI agent Garriola Strawberry is later revealed to be a man named Lynn Bressler.

[1221] So basically, if it wasn't for Lynn Bressler getting cold feet in 1991, no one would ever have known about any of this.

[1222] And those cases would have gone unsolved, like who knows what would have happened.

[1223] So that guy really, really is kind of the hero for coming forward.

[1224] The Chippendale Murder has been covered across film, TV, and podcasts.

[1225] There's a made -for -TV movie called The Chippendale Murders in the year 2000.

[1226] There's a movie called Just Can't Get Enough from 2002.

[1227] The Discovery Channel, it was on the FBI files in an episode called Backstage Murder.

[1228] And then, of course, the podcast, Welcome to Your Fantasy, that came out this year.

[1229] There's also a biopic that's currently in the works by director Craig Gillespie, who did I -Tanya.

[1230] And Dev Patel's playing Steve Bannergy in that.

[1231] Wow, big name.

[1232] Right?

[1233] And that is the unbelievable and to me, unheard of story of the Chippendale's murders.

[1234] Holy shit.

[1235] Crazy, right?

[1236] Tristy journey.

[1237] But also, like, I can see it all in my mind.

[1238] It's like over there, it was on Overland on the West Side.

[1239] I'm picturing exactly where it was.

[1240] It's just like you can.

[1241] and just see that kind of like that nightlife and that 80s thing going on.

[1242] Well, I promise to talk to my mom before next week and find out because there's no way she didn't go.

[1243] I cannot wait to hear if Janet has a Chippendale story.

[1244] I'll let you know for sure.

[1245] Or if anybody, if you have a Chippendale story from the 80s.

[1246] Yeah, or your mom or your grandma does.

[1247] Like an OG.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] Was your dad a dancer?

[1250] Please, were you a dancer?

[1251] Or you a dancer.

[1252] Fucking email us for your hometown.

[1253] be amazing but also you know I love that there's all this I love when there's a thing like that that to me is such a oh my god that was so that's so right at my alley time and place and everything but I had never heard of it no there's still those out there yeah oh my god just because we're on our 300 episode don't give up oh it always feels like I just don't know anything I'll ever talk about again but now we of course have Hannah Creighton as our producer who's like give me ideas and I'll plan it for the next eight months and then I don't panic every week which is so nice No, we have some really good support and nice help.

[1254] You know who we've had supporting us for 300 episodes?

[1255] Who?

[1256] That Mr. Stephen Ray Morris, who's right there with us.

[1257] Thank you, Stephen.

[1258] Thank you so much.

[1259] You're welcome.

[1260] Thank you.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] He's been in all the lofts and all the apartments and all the studios and some of the live shows.

[1263] He really has the patience of a saint.

[1264] Those early days were pretty rough, got to say.

[1265] Those current days can get rough, too.

[1266] It's all pretty rough.

[1267] But, you know, I think we're also having a good time.

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] Thank you guys for listening.

[1270] We appreciate you, as always.

[1271] Here's to 3 ,000 more.

[1272] Wait, what?

[1273] Stay sexy.

[1274] And don't get murdered.

[1275] Goodbye.

[1276] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1277] This has been an exactly right production.

[1278] Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1279] Associate producer Alejandra Keck.

[1280] Engineer and mixer.

[1281] Stephen.

[1282] Ray Morris.

[1283] Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

[1284] Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[1285] And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1286] And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to My Favorite Murder .com.

[1287] Rate review and subscribe.