How To Take Full Control Of Your Mind: Prof. Steve Peters, The Chimp Paradox

[0] My work now is helping people to optimise performance, get a good relationship with themselves, finding a peace, happiness, confidence.

[1] Professor Steve Peters, he's a world -leading psychiatrist, arguably one of the most famous, renowned and important of our time.

[2] You will come out the other side much better.

[3] People do recover from broken relationships.

[4] People don't know what the next relationship will be.

[5] Not everybody is the same.

[6] What tends to happen is people either don't recognise they're getting stressed and it becomes chronic and they've got these behaviours which are damaging to them as people think stress is where we wringing our hands and panicking and that's not really true stress comes in all different forms and often isn't recognised even for people in a much more serious situation where they become suicidal you can tell them with honesty there is always a future and things do change and feelings do move and we have to accept that reality we cannot know everything about the person we're with and if our chimps which are panicky a bit and want guarantees and what then we're We're going down the wrong path, and we have to tell our chimp, you can't do this.

[7] Professor Steve Peters, he's a world -leading psychiatrist, arguably one of the most famous, renowned and important of our time.

[8] He's also a doctor and a hugely successful author.

[9] Some of you, most of you, will know him from his best -selling book, The Chimp Paradox, which has sold millions of copies worldwide.

[10] And that's a book that actually saved the lives of some people very close to me. He's worked with elite level athletes, including Stephen Gerard and the England football team and Ronnie O'Sullivan, gold medal Olympians like Sir Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton, as well as business leaders and CEOs.

[11] And he helps them overcome what he calls mental dysfunction.

[12] He's helped them optimise for performance, and he's really helped them get out of their own way.

[13] And in many respects in life, we're all in our own way.

[14] Steve's invented this groundbreaking concept called the Chimp Model, and it focuses on how there's these kind of three parts to our brain.

[15] The first part is called The Chimp, which is our sort of desire to be impulsive and irrational and emotional and short term.

[16] The second part is what he calls the human, and you'll hear him talk about this, which is logical and rational, and thinks in terms of facts and thinks things through in the long term.

[17] And the third part is what he calls the computer, which is our set of core values and beliefs.

[18] Steve's work focuses on how we can manage and control the interaction between these three parts of our brain.

[19] And we all have these three compartments within our brains.

[20] And if you can understand them, if you can understand these three elements, it gives you greater power to utilize them to be happy, successful, however you define it, and to live a much more fulfilled life.

[21] Man, this episode gave me so many personal epiphanies, so many sort of penny -drop moments and so many personal realizations.

[22] It's one of the podcasts that I know I'll refer, on going forward, and I know for sure will change my life forever.

[23] So this is one where I implore you to listen to the entire conversation, because I think it will change your life too.

[24] So without further ado, sorry, that was a very long intro.

[25] I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the diary of a CEO.

[26] I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[27] Professor Steve Peters, thank you for joining me today.

[28] I've been a big fan of your work, as has a lot of people close to me in my life for a long, long period of time.

[29] Where I wanted to start with you is with a question, which is, how do you define yourself professionally?

[30] And I've read, you know, I've read about the diverse amount of work you've done across multiple sectors with sports stars, with leaders, with the NHS, with the fire service, with, you know, a broad spectrum of people.

[31] But what is the sort of basis of your work and how do you define what you do?

[32] Okay, well, thanks for inviting me. Coming from medical background, I define myself as a doctor who is specialised in the mental health area of medicine and then moved a little bit sideways into just mentoring and helping people to gain understanding and insights into the way that their mind functions and then applying that into whatever they take me. So effectively, I'm an educator with a medical basis.

[33] But I still have patients I would treat, but generally my work now is helping people to optimise.

[34] performance or get a good relationship with themselves, finding a piece, the kind of things people want happiness, confidence, or even things like high performing teams.

[35] So a vast spectrum, but the basis of all of this is do you understand what's going on inside your head, do you understand yourself?

[36] And what's the, because some people are easily confused between psychiatry and psychology.

[37] What's the distinction as you see it?

[38] Well, the distinction is that psychologists are expert in usually a specific.

[39] area within psychology, so educational psychologists would look at how we educate children and adults and how they learn best, whereas you might get a clinical psychologist, still work with someone who's got maybe depressive illness and look at the cognitive aspects of that, the way we think and behave.

[40] Psychiatry is a medical doctor, so we tend to treat mental illness as opposed to dysfunction.

[41] So mental illness is where we know that in simplistic terms the brain isn't functioning well something is going wrong often it's transmitter systems so we treat them um but when we might find as a psychiatrist that it's dysfunction so then we would do overlap work with what psychologists would do right got you um you your book the chimp paradox really focused on psychological dysfunction yes and was that born out of your that was born out of your work in psychiatry yes i mean when i was in the NHS as a consultant for many years um people come to the door who had mental ill which then we would treat and support and help and get them on the feet.

[42] But also a significant number of people came through the door who didn't need treatment per se.

[43] They had, the mind was fully functional and operating well.

[44] They didn't know how to operate it.

[45] So because they didn't operate well with the mind, it was creating a lot of emotional distress.

[46] And so they would present as if it were an illness.

[47] But in my book, it wasn't an illness.

[48] So I worked with that dysfunction.

[49] and out of that work was born the neuroscience basis of the chimp model to say, look, let's have a look at the brain and see what is the brain actually doing and how did it develop and how can we apply that to you today?

[50] I want to go down those two paths.

[51] So I want to go down the mental health path and then also the mental dysfunction path.

[52] So if we start with the mental health path, there's this kind of prevailing narrative in culture at the moment that mental health disorders are on the increase and that people are getting more and more depressed, more and more anxious.

[53] In your view, is that accurate?

[54] This is a complex topic.

[55] The answer would be that we're more aware of it, so it's probably reported more, but mental illness per se will can sometimes be born out of mental dysfunction.

[56] So if we get stressed in our work, say, and we don't manage it well, or in relationships, and we don't manage that well, then we know that given time for many individuals, the neurotransmitters in the brain start to malfunction.

[57] So we can create effectively an illness by not managing the mind well.

[58] Alternatively, it can spontaneously malfunction so people can have a great life, look after themselves, yet still suddenly go into a clinical depression because the system has failed, much like say a thyroid might fail.

[59] They haven't done anything wrong, it's just the system has failed.

[60] And is the changing world we live in, the more sort of digitalized world where, I don't know, our lives are being, I guess, more optimized for, I guess, productivity and optimized against things like exercise, for example.

[61] You know, I can order my lunch by clicking a button now and I can meet dates just by swiping on my phone.

[62] Is it your belief that that changed world, a more digital world, more social media -centric world, the world we live in today, is more conducive with mental illness?

[63] I think, again, after talking broad terms, everybody's unique, which means that somebody will find that really advantageous to just press a button and the lunch arrives and they don't need that people interaction.

[64] We're all on a spectrum.

[65] The vast majority of us are built to interact.

[66] We are gregarious by nature and we like people around us and we like to have relationships.

[67] So clearly if somebody's isolated in an office or working from home, then they will miss that aspect.

[68] So if they don't actually compensate in some way which satisfies their need for this interaction, then it's likely they will start to become distrable.

[69] So in that sense, I think because most of us are gregarious and we're more and more isolated, if we don't make steps to change that round, it's likely people will find they get more stressed and more anxiety will appear and more clinical depression may appear.

[70] Yeah, I ask that question just because I'm unsure, as you said at the start of your answer, whether it's just because of awareness has increased around mental illness or if the world we live in now is not meeting us, I guess, our fundamental human needs.

[71] I think it's a bit of everything and I think therefore researchers will look at the idea that, for example, social media has a massive input which it wasn't there.

[72] So we go back 20 years and there wasn't social media as such.

[73] And now it's become very prominent in many people's lives.

[74] And we know that most of us don't respond well and if it's public criticism, then we really don't respond well.

[75] So that can be an extremely destructive force on people.

[76] However, if people use social media appropriately and are able to block out any of these negative comments that people make, then they'll probably find it an advantageous thing to actually communicate with friends and family.

[77] So again, it's not so much what's happening in society, it's how we interact with it and learn what works for us as individual.

[78] So it's stopping and getting time to think, what are my needs?

[79] And a lot of people don't really know that.

[80] You have to discover them.

[81] And then how do I put them in place that work for me. And on that point of needs, as it relates to sort of mental, good mental health, are you able to point at some fundamental things that we all need to have, or things that are most conducive, tip generally, broadly with good mental health?

[82] Yeah.

[83] So if you came to me and you said, right, can we just do a bit of a psychological profile?

[84] Let me have a look at my life and see how I'm going.

[85] Then often people are not what we call great historians.

[86] They don't give me information, I've got to sort of pull the information out with appropriate questions.

[87] And the rare is, yes, I would touch on.

[88] So first of all, I would certainly look at the relationship you have with yourself.

[89] What's your own self -image, self -worth, self -confidence?

[90] I would like to see where you stand in those areas.

[91] Because we start with you.

[92] If someone's in a good place, then it's likely they'll cope with the world.

[93] But if someone's not in a good place with themselves and within themselves, then it's unlikely they'll cope with the world.

[94] Because your starting point is not good.

[95] And when I've done that, then we'll look at things like relationships.

[96] So you want to see what kind of relationships do you particularly need or want at this point in your life?

[97] And what kind of relationships have you got?

[98] And are you maximising them?

[99] Are they dysfunctional?

[100] You know, is it to do with the communication between you?

[101] We'll look at communication.

[102] But apart from that, I'll go to fundamental drives.

[103] You know, do you recognise the drives you have?

[104] And the obvious ones are eating drives, the drive for sex, for security, for territory.

[105] We'll look at how you apply those, because these are drives that all of us have to greater or less extend.

[106] But sometimes it's hidden drives.

[107] So one of the ones is a purpose, recognition, you know, a feeling of value in what you do or who you are.

[108] So these are drives we all have, but often they get neglected because people don't recognize them.

[109] And once you actually point them out and you say, well, how are you going to fulfill these, then we can work on what works for you.

[110] So I don't tell people, I don't have like a recipe book.

[111] I can't do that.

[112] I know that people can.

[113] I can't.

[114] What I like to do is work with you as a team.

[115] And you say to me, this is what my needs are.

[116] I challenge that to try and make sure it's really clear.

[117] And then we'll look at what you think will work for you.

[118] Maybe I'll come up with ideas and suggestions or challenge beliefs you've got.

[119] And then we work together to say, what are your outcome objectives?

[120] is what do you want to achieve in the next three months, six months, 12 months, and look what's realistic.

[121] So it's quite a detailed, almost like an MOT on the person's mind, make sure everything's up and functioning.

[122] Two things I was super intrigued thereby is the idea of self -image and what that really, really means.

[123] Because I've heard the term of, you know, self -image.

[124] I guess that's how you see yourself.

[125] Yeah.

[126] Insecurities in all, or is insecurities impact how you see yourself?

[127] Well, this is where 20 -something years ago now, in the early 90s, it struck me as a younger doctor that the mind isn't one entity working.

[128] So when I ask people about self -image, I'm now going to split the mind a bit and say, what is the self -image that you feel you would like to have and that you are aiming to present to the world?

[129] And what's the genetic self -image that your mind is giving you and the mind interpreting, hence I started saying you have this circuitry which is rational, logical, looking at the facts, and you have a circuitry which is emotionally based.

[130] So it's not logic and emotion.

[131] It's logically based with emotion and it's emotion based with logic.

[132] And we don't control that.

[133] So if I try, that's detail, I'd like to listen to that one again, is what I'm saying is we have control over the circuitry, which I call the human circuits, and your self -image then might be that I'm a compassionate guy, that I'm a trustworthy person that I always give 100%.

[134] This is what your self -image could be when I discuss with you and your circuits are responding.

[135] However, if you've moved the blood supply and oxygen uptake into what I'm calling the chimp circuits, circuits which are quite primitive but think, you don't have any control over that.

[136] So they will generate sinking.

[137] And the chimp circuits may give a very different answer.

[138] because they're much more likely to be emotionally and say how you feel about yourself rather than the reality.

[139] So the feeling could be the reality, but it's likely not to be.

[140] So we get two images from two different circuits.

[141] And what is informing the chimp?

[142] Right, so the chimp, when it starts off in life, this is going heavy neuroscience.

[143] As we develop in the fetus, the chimp circuitry, which is the orbiter frontal cortex, heads it up.

[144] This is a part of our brain just above our eyes, starts to think, but it thinks in an emotional way.

[145] So it reacts to things.

[146] It doesn't think ahead with consequence.

[147] It reacts impulsively, and it relies on the centre of the brain, the rest of the limbic system.

[148] It's part of the limbic to actually store this, our experience, as memory.

[149] So, for example, if a child gets told off at the age of two, it's likely to be in churned circuitry, then if it wants to avoid being told off again, it will conceal what it does.

[150] so if it's eating a chocolate biscuit it'll just try and not get caught okay because it's impulse will eat the chocolate biscuit but then it will learn but if you do you can get caught you get told off so therefore concealed being caught so this is impulsive and not thinking of long -term consequences or values or because this circuitry just does impulsive how can I get what I want and get away with it with the least emotion or painful emotion whereas what happens when we're around to is a secondary system the human circuit start to develop.

[151] So these run from the top of our head, almost like a vertical one down into the center of the brain.

[152] And this part, the dorsalateral prefrontal cortex, we have control of.

[153] This is our active thinking, conscious awareness of things like future time.

[154] So we look at consequence.

[155] If I steal the biscuit, what will happen?

[156] Is there an alternative?

[157] And now our values start to come into play.

[158] It's not the right thing to do.

[159] Whereas the chimp bin doesn't work with value.

[160] It has values, but they're not our values.

[161] So we then start having this battle in our heads.

[162] But that circuit doesn't come into a two -year -old approximately.

[163] So that's why we don't have memory before too, because he's not actually functioning.

[164] And it starts factual memory rather than the emotional memory.

[165] So when you say one informed to chimp, the chimp has got all this intuition, and intuition is previous experience of what happens.

[166] So as it's going to take the chocolate biscuit, the chimp's brain will remind it this may not be a good thing it's pleasurable but it may not be good so that generally the child now feels on edge they know what they want to do but they're on edge and they don't know why they're on edge until they have to think it through and then the chimp will remind them you're getting this feeling because you could get caught so the way that system works it gives you a feeling you interpret the feeling and then you make a decision but it's based on feelings.

[167] What was the prehistoric use case for the chimp?

[168] Well, the chimp brain, I mean, I used that because when I looked 30 years ago, I looked at the human brain and then compared it to the hominids and sports, especially in the hominid group, who were saying that the chimpanzee's brain is almost the same as ours in these particular circuits.

[169] So that's why we find them entertaining because they demonstrate what we do.

[170] Yeah.

[171] And they will be devious and they will be quite violent, they're also compassionate, but they're all impulsive and not thought through well.

[172] And when I looked at that with the other great apes, so the orangutang, the berno, the gorilla, they didn't actually have the same circuitry as the chimp.

[173] And I couldn't wait for the research, so I jumped the gun a bit, and called it the chimp paradox, because in the last two, three years, it's been published now to show that the chimp brain and our brain is closer than we thought in the way that we think with that particular circuitry.

[174] So that's why I picked.

[175] the chimp but it's seen in all animals and it's it's a defense mechanism to protect you so obviously eating the biscuits a good survival mechanism the fact you might get caught is incidental you hope you don't but you have to eat so these circuits are based to help us to survive so they give us all our drives but they also give us experience of what happens when we act in a certain way and if it doesn't work we change our reaction right and you said drives there that was the second point that I was intrigued by is how one goes about understanding their drives.

[176] I think when I, in the world we live in especially the social media world, it feels like our drives and our values are somewhat sometimes handed to us.

[177] And we don't even know that something isn't our true sort of intrinsic driver or values.

[178] But because of, I don't know, a desire to be to fit in or to gain approval from people, we take it up as a value of our own or we say if we're asked that that's something that drives us.

[179] not.

[180] So we might say we want to be, we want a Lamborghini or we want to be a public speaker or whatever.

[181] But really, probably underpinning that is our desire to be, to get recognition and to be loved, I don't know.

[182] But how do you go about understanding what your true drivers are in life and not the things that you say just, yeah, this is where when I looked at this, as I say, a long time back, you start to see that if you ask people, which is why I do, to put away everything and just get a blank piece of paper.

[183] That's why my starting point is always write down the perfect person you want to be.

[184] Because this now excludes any of the drives.

[185] And a lot of what you're talking about is actually behaviours attached to drives.

[186] They're not true drives.

[187] Drives are things like the need to eat, the need to have security.

[188] These are drives, the need to be apparent.

[189] And we have these compulsive driving forces within us that get us out of our seat and make us find something.

[190] whereas gaining approval from people is actually based in the orbiter frontal cortex the chimp again where it's terrified of been excluded from the troops so a chimpanzee in the wild must be part of a troop otherwise the leopard's waiting so lots of eyes protect you so the chimpanzee has an inbuilt need to be with other chimps and in order to do that it must prove to the other chimps that it's worthy because if it isn't they could exclude it which would be death so we carry that drive still we need to be approved The problem is the chimpanzee's got it right, we've got it wrong.

[191] The chimpanzee recognizes it only wants approval from its immediate troop, whereas we actually try and get approval from the whole world.

[192] So one person on social media tells the world that they're not like us and we can potentially fall apart instead of saying, actually, they're not in my troops, so it's not important.

[193] So it's important.

[194] This is an example of how giving insights people can start recognizing.

[195] Actually, find your own troop, because that's what you need to focus on, not the rest of the world.

[196] You'll never please them.

[197] You know, you're not part of that.

[198] So drives you have to look at, and I go to the list of this, and then we say to you, for example, how strong is your troop drive?

[199] We all have one.

[200] That's the need to belong to a group of people, or maybe just to one person.

[201] But generally, we like to have a number of people around us.

[202] So it's looking and saying, how strong is that drive, and are you fulfilling it correctly?

[203] And also when you've got your, what I'm calling the troop of people around you, are you actually looking after the troop and maintaining it and using it?

[204] appropriately.

[205] Makes a lot of sense.

[206] I've sat here with a lot of guests and some of them have tens of millions of subscribers and followers online and they still, remarkably they still pretty much, I'd say 95 % of occasions can have their day ruined by one comment on a YouTube video or an Instagram per post and it does it does like, it does blow my mind a little bit that they can have such a big tribe and still one.

[207] Yeah, I get that.

[208] But if you think that we, society, we're told basically to respect everyone, which is correct from our human brain, our chimps are actually saying, just close in and get the people around you that matter and please them and look at their approval.

[209] And that's what our friends do.

[210] They'll be critical, but it's very constructive and done with love.

[211] So we accept criticism from friends.

[212] We know they're on side.

[213] But if you start expanding that inappropriately to the whole world, then you're going to stress your chimp to pieces.

[214] Because what you're saying is, I think it's really important that that person approves of me as well.

[215] So again, I look at the reality of life and say, let's just get in your factual memory some real truths of life.

[216] And people may disagree, but I ask them, what do you believe?

[217] Because truths are relative to us.

[218] So one of the things we know is, and I give this statistic as a loose statistic, 80 % of people approve of us.

[219] 20 % love us, 60 % just approve, and 20 % are just not pleasant people.

[220] And if we go around believing that we're really going to make them into pleasant people, or we're really going to please them, you're going to lose.

[221] So you have to step back and get that fact.

[222] And then you don't worry if 20 % of the people don't like you or make critical remarks.

[223] You just dismiss it and look at the 20 % who do love you, who are going to give you constructive criticism and respect you.

[224] So again, it's that learning that your drive is out of control.

[225] You're allowing your drive for the troop to extend to the world, and that's not appropriate.

[226] It never was meant to do that.

[227] So it's an inappropriate use of this primitive drive.

[228] So take me through that process then.

[229] So I get a blank piece of paper.

[230] I write down who I want to be.

[231] I'd say things like I want to be, and correct me where I'm wrong here, okay?

[232] You won't be wrong.

[233] But if I say I want to be, I want to achieve.

[234] great things.

[235] Is that a drive?

[236] No, that's not a drive.

[237] That's something you hope for.

[238] Yeah, okay.

[239] So we get the terminology right, because if you hope for that, but accept it may not happen, that you're now working with the human circuit, which is logical and rational.

[240] So we hope to get, like I work with elite athletes, which is privileged, and they hope to get, say, an Olympic medal.

[241] And they hope for that.

[242] They accept that you may not get this.

[243] Even if you're on form on the day, somebody may be better, or you may make an error.

[244] So as long as you have that, then it shouldn't be stressing you.

[245] Okay.

[246] It would be okay.

[247] but if you move into saying I have to get an Olympic medal we're now moving into the chimp circuits because that's not true you don't have to you know but if somebody absolutely says to me you don't get it if I don't get then life's not worth living I'm not going to argue what I'm saying is that's the choice you're making and you must also accept the consequence so I can't change that so when you start your list what I'm really asking for is what are your character traits So discipline.

[248] I mean, again, I would test the water because I don't know what you're going to say here.

[249] Yeah.

[250] I'll just do a quick one for you to say, would you like to be a really nice good person or would you like to be successful?

[251] You're going to be one of them.

[252] Which would you prefer?

[253] A really nice good person.

[254] Right.

[255] So I know where I stand with you now.

[256] So we have to now make sure that you understand that's the prime reason that we're going to do the work is to get you to be the person that you want to be.

[257] This is the good news.

[258] If you write on the piece, the perfect person you want to be.

[259] So give me some more character traits.

[260] Trits.

[261] All the things that come to mind are the impact I want to have on those that encounter me. So, right.

[262] So you want to be inspirational.

[263] Yeah, I guess that is, but also just like empathetic and compassionate and positive force.

[264] You want to be an empathic guy, a compassionate guy, inspirational.

[265] You're probably going to add if we go through this and have time, honesty, integrity, trustworthy, you know, respectful.

[266] When you've done all this, this is really crucial, and it is a light bulb moment.

[267] If you think about this, that, if you had control of that part of your brain, which you have, and there was no interference from the rest of the brain, then that's exactly how you would be in life.

[268] True.

[269] That is you.

[270] So what I'm saying is, the reality is fantastic.

[271] That is you.

[272] It's not who you hope to be.

[273] It is you.

[274] It's not a myth.

[275] It's neuroscience.

[276] It's you.

[277] What we're now saying is that doesn't present to the world.

[278] because now your chimp and the computer system, the backup to both human and chimp, now impose other things, and so the world might see something different.

[279] So you say to me, I want to be compassionate.

[280] And I walk in and say, I've had a really long journey today, all went wrong, and you're busy and you just get irritated and say, oh, for goodness sake, stop mourning.

[281] And then afterwards you think, well, that wasn't very compassionate.

[282] So I'm not compassionate, but that's misunderstanding the neuroscience.

[283] You were always compassionate because your intention was always to say, sorry, Steve, that you've had a rough journey.

[284] You know, because obviously it's important.

[285] I wouldn't be telling you.

[286] I mean, you still might want to say stop mourning after a while, but it's done nicely.

[287] But what happened is your chimp is saying, I don't need to deal with this.

[288] It's doing my head in.

[289] So I'll just have a goal.

[290] And that'll stop him.

[291] And there you see this immediate reaction without thought of consequence.

[292] So then our rapport fails a bit because I think, phew, not a nice guy of this.

[293] But actually, when I understand the science, I think he's probably a nice guy.

[294] His chimp wasn't very good there.

[295] That's very different to you going away at the end of the day thinking, what's wrong with me?

[296] Why was I lacking in compassion?

[297] The answer was, get the neuroscience right.

[298] You've never moved position.

[299] You're always a compassionate guy who's trustworthy and honest and so on.

[300] Your chimp has interfered.

[301] Now, it's very critical.

[302] I expand on two points here because the listeners are going to go up.

[303] Hang on.

[304] This is not an excuse model.

[305] 100 % I'm tough on people this non -excuse model you're 100 % responsible for managing the chimp so you need an apology so when you know the chimp's been a bit brisk or rude you've got to stop and say I apologize you are responsible so I'm not saying blame everything on your chimp I'm not saying that and the second point is you gave me an answer there by saying I want to be this compassionate guy and people say surely everyone writes the same list absolutely not in the 90s when I started started to really pull this together and was looking at the neuroscience.

[306] Clearly, you probably know, worked in the field of forensics.

[307] And if you take a typical person, so we'll take you as a typical person, and we say, what would you give?

[308] You gave me the right list.

[309] Peaceful, calm, you'll go through integrity, honesty, compassion.

[310] That is really common on the list.

[311] However, when you get to the psychopath, they wouldn't put these.

[312] When I asked them, they did not put honesty.

[313] They did not put compassion.

[314] They were not relevant.

[315] They had a very different list of who they would ideally like to be.

[316] And it wasn't pleasant.

[317] It was all about power.

[318] It was all about ego.

[319] These are what are in critical.

[320] This is what I'm going to be.

[321] So actually, the human in that person is not the good guy.

[322] I used to say it's often the chimp in them that's the nice guy.

[323] They're actually humans not so nice at all.

[324] So it isn't a good guy, bad guy.

[325] That is not at all what the model is.

[326] It's saying we all have these systems.

[327] Let's find out who we are.

[328] what kind of chimp we got, because they're spread in characteristic, and then what have we got on our computer?

[329] This is really heavy going.

[330] No, it's not.

[331] I hope this is.

[332] No, it makes perfect sense.

[333] My brain is spiraling off into loads of different examples where that is true.

[334] And one of the first ones that came to mind was about, like, leadership.

[335] And in the business world, and I was thinking about the likes of Steve Jobs, and you hear about these leaders that are maybe, they appear to be led more by their chimp, because they are incredibly short all the time.

[336] They seem to be incredibly emotional.

[337] However, when you reflect on what they've achieved in their careers, they also, like even, you know, Sir Alex Ferguson's may be an interesting example.

[338] They appear to be either using the chimp as a intentionally or out of control.

[339] Yeah, I mean, again, there's nothing wrong with the chimp.

[340] People said to me, oh, you'd paint this picture of this like terrible being, in our heads.

[341] And I've never said this.

[342] And when I wrote The Chimp Paradox, he's in the title.

[343] I said it's your best friend.

[344] You know, my chimp is my best friend.

[345] That doesn't always agree with him.

[346] I always say to people, I see him as this inept best friend who doesn't do the best things for me at times, but he means well.

[347] So I know this part of my brain is 100 % on side.

[348] It just operates in a way that maybe I don't agree with at times.

[349] But it does, I learn to communicate with it so that I can get it on side and harness its power.

[350] So the chimp is the part of the brain it gives a sense of humour.

[351] The human doesn't possess that.

[352] It's the chimp that recognizes anomalies and makes us laugh.

[353] It's the chimp that has intuition.

[354] We haven't got that.

[355] The chimp reads body language.

[356] We haven't got that.

[357] So our human circuits fail.

[358] So this complementary circuit, when it works together, we know even if you go to the corporate world, that business decisions that are made with logic and emotion are the best decisions.

[359] And that's emphasising neuroscience that we know decision making by both human and chimp circuits together are the best decisions.

[360] So you use your chimp's intuition and its enthusiasm and it's drives, but you harness them and you channel them so you learn which is what this is all about, mind management.

[361] So you start to have this amazing machine now, but it's almost like a living machine.

[362] I'm going to get it on side and help.

[363] So I agree these people, their chimps will drive them to be successful.

[364] I'd like to think that my chimp's really very, very strong, but it's on board because I manage it and it knows I'm not against my emotions and are in my emotionally based brain.

[365] I'm not against them.

[366] I use them.

[367] I think what's the message they're telling me. So any emotions we get are messages.

[368] They're not meant to be engaged with.

[369] They're meant to be worked on so that you actually use them.

[370] I wanted to talk about exactly that topic, which is like managing your emotional reactions across different facets of life and I think let me just give you an example of a situation that I went through that I read about in my book so I'm just gonna be completely honest because that's what I tend to do on this podcast I broke up with a girl and like two days later I found out that she'd slept with somebody else and when I, even though I'd broken up with her when I read the message that she'd slept with somebody else my brain revenge message her to destroy her life that's what my brain said to me and I'm at a place in my life where I feel quite secure in my self -image let's say I don't feel particularly insecure I'm a confident person but even I couldn't seem to get a grip of my own desire to react emotionally in that situation and really interestingly as well it was actually my friend calling me I went to the gym I thought, maybe I'll go to the gym, and that'll, like, clear my head.

[371] It was my friend calling me, and this, I don't know where this fits in psychiatry, but my friend said to me, Steve, just remember, you broke up with her.

[372] She's probably doing this to make herself feel better and to, you know, rebound or whatever.

[373] But that was one of those key moments where I was like, God, like, the damage you can do if you don't know how to control that, like, primitive urge to just, br -oh.

[374] Okay.

[375] You've covered a lot of ground there.

[376] That could be an hour's working.

[377] So I'm going to take it back and then try and go very steadily to try and drive home.

[378] There's a lot of areas.

[379] One is, first of all, what would you expect somebody's mind to do confronted with the same situation?

[380] What would you expect them to do?

[381] Probably the same thing.

[382] Exactly.

[383] So nothing abnormal happened.

[384] There wasn't a problem.

[385] Yeah.

[386] You're saying this is absolutely healthy and normal, but maybe not helpful.

[387] Yeah.

[388] And what you really said, because you've told me this, if it wasn't a problem to you, you wouldn't have mentioned it.

[389] So clearly, your human brain is saying, I don't want to get revenge.

[390] That's not what I want.

[391] What I want is to just be calm and collected, accept the reality of it, and move on.

[392] Unfortunately, we have to learn now how the mind works.

[393] So it's like saying you went to the gym.

[394] So therefore, you're a fitness man. If I said to you, right, I've never been to a gym for 30 years.

[395] I'm going to go tonight.

[396] And at the end of the day, I'm going to be super fit.

[397] And you laugh because, you know, that's ridiculous.

[398] It's not the way the body works.

[399] So we have to now look at another aspect.

[400] So now we know it's normal, how does the mind work when we get a really nasty shock and something which is devastating?

[401] So the reason that chimp is there and the reason we're here is for us to be safe and present the next generation to the world.

[402] That's what the chimps agenda is.

[403] So what happened there is the generation that you thought you were going to get was taken away from you.

[404] So this is devastating.

[405] So we expect you to be devastated.

[406] We also expect you to accept the mind is going to now grieve and it'll take approximately three months, give or take.

[407] You're talking about heartbreak here.

[408] Yeah, you've got to grieve.

[409] So the mind has a rule on the way it deals and processes grief.

[410] I can't speed that up.

[411] So if some, like if I meet you that night and I say, right, I'm going to get you out of it.

[412] I'm going to fail because you have to go through these ripples and work it through.

[413] So your human brain can do it in seconds because that's logic.

[414] She's gone.

[415] She was dishonest.

[416] It's a good thing.

[417] She's gone now.

[418] No more wasted time.

[419] Yep.

[420] That's easy.

[421] But the emotional chimp brain has got to process it.

[422] It cannot do it overnight.

[423] So you've got to now allow around a 12 -week process, and you're going to go through various stages of grief in the loss of what is a very significant relationship.

[424] And on top of that, there was another insult.

[425] It wasn't just, she said, it's not for me. She slept with someone else.

[426] So that is really going to get your chimp, you know?

[427] expect it now to be devastated.

[428] And your chimp's reaction, some people wouldn't, but it's common that it wants revenge.

[429] It wants to say, right, if you did this to me, you're going to suffer now.

[430] In reality, what you've just said by your nodding is, that's not what I want.

[431] I just want to move on and accept it wasn't for me. She did what she did.

[432] That's her problem, not yours.

[433] And what your friend did is start to try and turn it around with some facts to calm your chimp down and say, because it always looks to the computer.

[434] Let's look at reality.

[435] And the reality, and the is if I said to you, this girl is going to come back into your life and they'll bring all that pleasure you used to have, but she's going to have affairs every few weeks.

[436] Is that what you want?

[437] No. So you did break it all.

[438] Yeah.

[439] You know, so you're trying to look at it in a different way and say, let's look at the reality and the facts of the situation, but you cannot stop the grieving.

[440] You can't stop the yearning or the bargaining because guys in your opposition often go back and plead.

[441] And then she'll say, I made a mistake.

[442] And then you have to make a decision.

[443] You know, and then they'll bargain again.

[444] And then if you go through that, you're going to disorganize stage.

[445] But this can all be circumvented.

[446] If you suddenly met somebody new, your chimp might recover very quickly.

[447] Is that what tends to happen?

[448] Well, we know this is the rebound.

[449] So this is never a good thing.

[450] I'm sure if some of you listen are going to, I am married the person I met on the rebound.

[451] So, of course, it's all probabilities.

[452] But generally speaking, you need time to get over this.

[453] Gather yourself so you're in a good place when you do meet somebody else to have a good relationship.

[454] it's interesting so it's quite complex the whole thing so yes rationally we can pull you along but we've got to give you a lot of tlc and that should go through grieving don't be harsh on yourself and what your experiences are totally natural unhelpful but natural so many people are going through a grieving process in it could be a significant life event it could be the loss of a partner at the death or whatever is there anything in psychiatry from your experience that can okay that process is unavoidable But is there anything that I can do to help that process be easier?

[455] Yes, there is.

[456] I mean, one is understanding it.

[457] As you say, if you start to go through this and say to people like, this is how your mind has to do this.

[458] And like you tell me in the gym, you laugh, I can't do it in the night.

[459] Well, how long?

[460] And you say, well, it's a bit of a piece of string.

[461] But roughly speaking, if you keep going regularly two, three times a week, maybe three months, six months, you're going to see a difference, for sure.

[462] And it's the same with me explaining the mind.

[463] I would explain to people that we go through a grieving process.

[464] you are likely to experience the following emotions or stages in the grief process, but you are unique, and everybody grieves individually.

[465] So it's very important, as I said earlier, I don't have a process, you know, like a recipe and say, this is what we're going to do.

[466] I work with you as you grieve.

[467] But I want you to get insights, that's the key.

[468] So the work I do is giving understanding and insight and then applying this so you learn the skill of managing your emotions and the skill of understanding, the skill of mind management.

[469] that's what I'm about teaching a skill base so you can be independent of me but use me as a fallback on the point of rejection which we talked about a second ago is it the stories that I then tell myself about myself which impact my self -image that really hold that hurt me the most because it feels like when you go through emotional sorry romantic rejection or heartbreak it feels like even if you it's not the sort of like front of your mind the fact that someone did want you or they were they wanted someone else makes yourself tell yourself that you are not good enough not pretty enough not smart enough you you weren't enough and it feels like so much of the hurt and the pain lives inside that story you're telling yourself about yourself and again if you stop and we look at what you've said there are these factual statements or are the impressions and feelings impressions and feelings so we know that the chimp brain is in full flow now yeah so what we're saying is don't quench that.

[470] It's not wrong.

[471] It's expressing.

[472] And it's like, as I said, you've got this best friend.

[473] So if this happens to me, I now said, what is it you're telling me?

[474] And he'll go through all this.

[475] You know, it's the end of the world.

[476] And, you know, clearly no one's ever going to love you.

[477] And then we sort of counter it by saying, well, let's look at that.

[478] So we start to rationalise.

[479] And that can help the grieving process.

[480] Because we start saying, well, let's not just sit there with these falsehoods.

[481] Let's challenge them and let's replace them with truths, not brainwash.

[482] It's no good saying, for example, say, I'm your best mate, and you've just fallen apart, and you say, it's because I'm ugly.

[483] It's no good, me, say, no, you're really handsome.

[484] That's not, that's an impression again from me. What I'd be saying is, let's look at facts.

[485] If we look at people in relationships, do people find a partner eventually?

[486] And the answer is most people, yes.

[487] So the chances are very high.

[488] And if you can get through this, will you eventually get back on your feet?

[489] Is there a future?

[490] Yet there always is a future.

[491] There always is a future.

[492] Even for people in a much more serious situation where they become suicidal and obviously is part of my work, you can tell them with honesty there is always a future and things do change and feelings do move.

[493] So when you start giving these facts and rationalising the facts of the situation, that is going to be powerful for starting to settle your emotions.

[494] But giving falsehoods, you know, I know you can do it or you're, that's not going to settle your chimp, they're streetwise.

[495] Yeah, yeah.

[496] So it'll just keep agitating.

[497] Whereas if we talk facts, then it'll settle.

[498] But again, there's a key point here.

[499] We have to find the facts that resonate with you as facts.

[500] Because if I said, like I just did, will you find another partner?

[501] What's the general rule?

[502] If you said to me, yeah, but I don't believe that everybody does, there's no point me forcing this truth onto you.

[503] I'd have to look for others that might resonate with you.

[504] Yeah.

[505] such as if I go out and I actually start socialising when I'm ready, then the chances are I'll increase my probability.

[506] So that gives me a bit of hope.

[507] You might work with that.

[508] Yeah.

[509] So you've got to find what resonates with the person.

[510] And again, that's why I don't have this recipe.

[511] I'm saying, discover them, but think around.

[512] But you can offer common things.

[513] Yeah.

[514] Super interesting.

[515] And again, it perfectly explains why in that moment, for some bizarre reason, my friend telling me, being very sort of rational with me, things that I genuinely did accept to be true, just completely diffused my brain?

[516] Because he's acting, effective as you're human.

[517] Yeah.

[518] That's what he's doing.

[519] He's coming in rationally and stepping back and saying, let's look at the facts here.

[520] And he's hit some nails on the head where you think, oh, that's settled me down a bit.

[521] Yeah.

[522] So, but what tends to happen is you tend to isolate yourself.

[523] Most people do this after this has happened and they go within themselves.

[524] And they engage these emotions, which generates more and more falsehoods.

[525] and distorted words of perceiving themselves and the world, instead of being able to, which is not easy, talk to themselves rationally and preempting things like, you know, let's work with reality.

[526] It's not easy to do that.

[527] So when you can't do it, it's not a failure, you turn to your best friends and they'll do it for you.

[528] That's so interesting because I just realized something that I've started doing in the last year and people think I'm a proper, I'm a little bit strange for doing this.

[529] But in those moments, specifically as it relates to, like, romantic situations where I'm struggling to get a, to respond or act or behave in a way, which I want to, which is in line with who I want to be, I've got to be.

[530] I've got to.

[531] Let me just correct.

[532] Yeah, I've got to do.

[533] Sure, yeah, please.

[534] It's who you are.

[535] Who I am.

[536] It's not who you want to be.

[537] That is so important because, you know, if you get that, it's a light bulb moment to say, you know, you are this really great individual.

[538] And it's not just blowing smoke up people.

[539] people by and large, 90 % of people are great people.

[540] Their chimps, because they're not managed, can create havoc or their computers can have beliefs in which cause them to act in ways, which are not helpful.

[541] So they're the gremlins I talk about.

[542] So when you look at that, I'm saying you're always this great person.

[543] The world may never see it.

[544] And my job is to help you to present yourself as you are to the world.

[545] Then they will see who the real you is.

[546] But that doesn't stop you seeing the real you.

[547] You know, when you get home at night, look in the mirror.

[548] Don't see your chimp looking back.

[549] you know, look at, look and see the human in you're looking back, the real you, and respect that because that's who you are.

[550] So I've interrupted you for no, but please, thank you for doing that because it's important.

[551] And I, I realize that even the slightest, like, misuse of words can send you down a different path.

[552] Exactly.

[553] So I'm very keen on making sure my terminology is right, as I described myself and others.

[554] So if you see me doing that, please do correct.

[555] And I, again, I write about that in my own book about how just like the misuse of like one or two words, completely sent you down the wrong sort of train of thinking.

[556] But what I was saying is there's two things that I've started to do.

[557] The first is I now write in the notes of my phone statements I know to be true.

[558] And the second thing is, this is the slightly strange thing, is I will have a conversation out loud when I'm alone to try and rationalize against how I'm feeling.

[559] Brilliant.

[560] So I'm going to pick these both off because these are really key points.

[561] And this is why, it's going to promote the book now.

[562] I was saying that I wanted to share this.

[563] These are common features that we have, and there's lots of them.

[564] And one of the things you said scientifically really intrigues me. So you mention what I call the grade A hits, the truth that resonate with you.

[565] Put them in your phone, look at them, and they stabilize your chimp at any point.

[566] So you have grade A hits.

[567] So we touched on one, for example, not everybody's going to like you.

[568] And there are nasty people in the world.

[569] I'd like to add some positives.

[570] There are some fantastic people in the world, and there'll always be people who love you.

[571] You're never alone.

[572] You just need to reach out.

[573] So those are nice, greater hits if they resonate with you.

[574] But a very important one.

[575] When we looked at therapies, and this has been researched for the last 50 years, we're intrigued to know why do they work?

[576] And I'm giving you the model I introduced to try and show the neuroscience base.

[577] But the intriguing bit was when you speak into the air, effectively, it's the chimp brain giving out its thoughts and feelings.

[578] and you're humans listening.

[579] So it actually rationalizes as you listen.

[580] And it's not unusual in business meetings, I've seen it, where I've worked with corporate teams and said, just speak what you think, but don't judge them.

[581] They let their chimps out.

[582] And at the end, I say to the person, what do you think about that?

[583] And they'll laugh and say, I don't agree with any of it.

[584] Because now I've listened to myself.

[585] It's crazy.

[586] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[587] So it's very important that we do speak out.

[588] And this is what the base of therapies are, that when we talk, we start to listen to ourselves, and we start to be understanding, and process, but that's because our human brain is actually now taking the lead and listening.

[589] Yeah.

[590] Because it felt, because there's been a couple of key moments where just context is I've been in quite a challenging relationship where my partner is going through a journey.

[591] She lives in Indonesia a long way, long way away, and she's going through her own journey.

[592] And sometimes she's not always communicating with me. Sometimes she can be unpredictable.

[593] Sometimes she can kind of go missing for a couple of days in terms of like being emotionally vacant.

[594] And throughout that journey, I've tried not to, like, control, manipulate, impress myself, have high expectation and just kind of be and let her do what she needs to do.

[595] And obviously, my chimp brain will always be trying to jump to conclusions or trying to seek control or to dominate or to force the outcome or, you know, to force expectations on her or the situation.

[596] and my sort of human brain is wanting to be that compassionate empathetic person who is understanding and isn't trying to force an outcome out of somebody and so when I have that struggle it will be lying in a hotel room somewhere at night my brain is going da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da and then I have to speak out loud to kind of calm myself again so I have to state what I know to be true and if you look to the notes of my phone now it's not me just saying this there are a list of 20 things that I remind myself of that are like fundamental truths and they calm me. Yeah.

[597] And that's what I advocate.

[598] And I like people to get me five.

[599] Yeah.

[600] And then we're challenged to make sure they are really strong.

[601] And they apply generically through life.

[602] Yeah.

[603] You know, and it does settle our emotional mind down.

[604] But having said that, it's not a panacea.

[605] It's not like it's always going to settle.

[606] Sometimes we have specific experiences which can throw us.

[607] And then we have to learn how to manage these emotions.

[608] So again, when you say you're in the hotel room and your mind is, spinning.

[609] Stop the battle and I say to the chimp exactly what is it you're trying to tell me. What are you worried about?

[610] And we have to accept, and this is important, that sometimes our relationships are based on trust.

[611] And we have to accept that reality.

[612] We cannot know everything about the person we're with.

[613] So clearly we'll ask questions and we'll form a relationship, get to know them.

[614] But at the end of the day, any friendship or relationships on trust, and we must accept we will never know.

[615] Sometimes we'll never know.

[616] And if our chimp's which are panicky a bit and want guarantees and then we're going down the wrong path and we have to tell our chimp, you can't do this.

[617] The biggest thing to follow on to that is, as you've experienced, and almost universal, you get your heartbroken, it's extremely painful.

[618] It can damage you.

[619] And often you lose confidence in all areas of your life.

[620] So it's time to just build back up and give yourself time.

[621] But if you experience that and you go with the flow, not engage with it, you will come out the other side much better, much stronger.

[622] And then you come in with the factual evidence again that people do recover from broken relationships.

[623] People don't know what the next relationship will be.

[624] Not everybody is the same.

[625] So you start, like you're saying, giving all these grade A hits to it.

[626] I'm someone that tries things and that was one of the things that I tried.

[627] Because it felt like the right thing to do when my brain was just losing a bit of control, and it genuinely worked.

[628] So I carried on doing it.

[629] But it's good to understand the kind of basis in psychiatry.

[630] Can I just follow that through?

[631] I know people listening.

[632] And when you said to me, you know, this, my mind spinning in a hotel room, there's another really big truth I say to people.

[633] Your chimp cannot, cannot deal with uncertainty.

[634] It's based on, so it's never going to be happy.

[635] And your job is to say, look, we have to live with uncertainty.

[636] You have to.

[637] tell it that, that you cannot guarantee it.

[638] It's a bit like going with the elite athlete.

[639] You cannot guarantee a gold medal.

[640] So don't try because you're just going to stress yourself.

[641] You know, accept that it's a throw -the -dice in sport.

[642] Life is a throw -the -dice.

[643] All we can do is try and alter the probability, weight the dice.

[644] But there's a big fact here.

[645] The chimp can't deal with some outcomes you can.

[646] As adult humans, we can deal with anything.

[647] And that's a fact we can put in our computer, which will, again, for a lot of people, we'll settle down.

[648] There's nothing you can't deal with.

[649] You will deal with it.

[650] The chimp believes you can't deal with it.

[651] And it doesn't look beyond.

[652] Whereas I'm saying, look beyond and say, whatever happens in life, you'll look back and think, I did deal with life.

[653] And maybe we can deal with it quicker if we work with a mind and learn how to expedite things like this and not sit with them.

[654] It's problems.

[655] Learn how to move it forward and be much more positive.

[656] uncertainty stress one of the topics you write about in your book a path through the jungle but also I've been quite intrigued by of the years is the idea of stress I think it's been painted as a really negative thing something to be for us to avoid all costs but from what I've understood that's not necessarily the truth stress can be a good and a bad thing I mean trying to just go to the new resilience again if we look at where stress comes from it's a good thing provided we act on it.

[657] If you have like gone a big dipper ride, your brain releases a lot of noradrenaline.

[658] And we know this is a good thing.

[659] You get a thrill from it.

[660] But if you keep on being a stressful situation, noradrenaline stays high and that now becomes damaging to us.

[661] And it's joined by the big one, which is cortisol.

[662] And there are other negative hormones and transmitters.

[663] And so these, when they're held at high level, levels become damaging.

[664] In short bursts, they're actually healthy because they can wake us up to saying, right, you need to act.

[665] So we do have resilience hormones coming in and they will then give us an opportunity as long as you recognize it to say stress is welcome, provided I act to remove it.

[666] There's something I need to do, whatever's causing me the stress.

[667] What tends to happen is people either don't recognize they're getting stressed and it becomes chronic and they've got these habitual behaviours which are damaging to them.

[668] And they don't even recognise them.

[669] And then they get symptoms of stress, which they also not recognise.

[670] Because people think stress is where we're wringing our hands and panicking, and that's not really true.

[671] Stress comes in all different forms and often it isn't recognised.

[672] So for example, we know things that all your drives may go out.

[673] So you're eating drives, sex drives, sleep drives.

[674] These all start to falter, can change in any direction, but also things like irritability, suddenly finding got short fuse, constantly being tired.

[675] This is using evidence of stress somewhere in your life.

[676] But even more subtle ones, when you get people with really bad anxiety, so you have a generalized anxiety states, gross anxiety, they can be pure selfish because suddenly they become so vulnerable in their own eyes and stressed.

[677] They don't actually pay attention to people around them.

[678] And when we treat them and they get better, they suddenly start engaging with people again and show, demonstrate respect and understanding and, but while they're not well, they become almost selfish or appear that way.

[679] So again, you can get people who are stressed and appear to be very self -interested and it's really vulnerability, they're under stress and we misunderstand that or misinterpret it and start thinking someone's a selfish person.

[680] I mean, they may be selfish, but I'm saying it is one of the hidden stress factors that can start appearing.

[681] In terms of the causes of stress, I think one of the widely held beliefs is, especially now as we think about mental illness, is that a lot of it's about sort of pent -up unaddressed issues or us not releasing or expressing what we're thinking or feeling.

[682] Is that accurate?

[683] It is, but then the etiology of the cause of stress is multiple.

[684] So again, it could be, for example, you've got an ongoing problem, somebody bullying you, you know, that's stressful.

[685] you're lacking a partner and it really isn't working out.

[686] And that can stress you because you feel like it's never going to happen.

[687] You know, the false starts and you start to become stressed by it.

[688] Or, as you said, you could have experiences from way back, which have never really been worked through or addressed.

[689] And they therefore keep surfacing.

[690] They bubble under these emotions and that will definitely create stress.

[691] It tends to be they don't present with stress as such.

[692] They present with odd emotions.

[693] So they translate into things like irritability.

[694] And when you say, well, let's look at why you're being irritable.

[695] It's unaddressed issues that you need to get up to the surface in the time you want to do it and then clear the computer system, as I'm calling it.

[696] So you've processed these issues.

[697] And sometimes addiction?

[698] An addiction too.

[699] Well, so my business partner, and he's talked about this very much openly at length.

[700] And he's actually come on this podcast and talked about this.

[701] he obviously um he became a alcoholic um when we were growing the business um i i believe in his words because it was incredibly it was incredibly difficult we were you know 20 years old we had you know hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of employees all around the world and we'd never done this before and um we were living together and i think the pressure of the business um and the stress as he would describe it um meant that he he was turning to alcohol to cope.

[702] Okay, so two separate things again is like, I mean, I don't know because I'm just giving like a little potted history.

[703] So clearly, alcohol is a coping strategy, a very poor one, that people use to get social confidence, for example, or remove anxiety or even depression.

[704] And generally, it won't work out.

[705] It will end up being a problem within itself.

[706] But alcohol disorders are then in approximately one in eight people will change the brain in the way it functions.

[707] And they then get these cravings and addiction, whereas a lot of people, it's more a behavioral addiction.

[708] So it's a case of getting new behavior, work out what's causing the problem, and we sort it, and they can stop and drink alcohol socially.

[709] But we have to accept that genetically, some people, I'm going to my medical role here, I worked with the alcohol services for some years, and patients who are addicted mean they actually have a different brain system.

[710] So we know that their brain will cause craving, and they will respond to them.

[711] certain medications that behaviorally drinking people won't so again it's learning which group you're in and they have to they must abstain because we know that if they drink small amounts of alcohol it sets the system off again so we get this repeat behavior and we have to say you know unluckily it's about no different to someone who can't drink milk if you've got lactose intolerance the answer is you can't drink milk and if they've got an addictive genetic loading towards alcohol then they mustn't drink that we're saying this is just a one way street to disaster.

[712] Is that a thing?

[713] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[714] People are genetically predisposed.

[715] We know it runs in families, and we know that people's brains react differently to alcohol intake, and there is a subgroup where we're changing the way that they operate in the brain, so therefore we know that, as I say, they will get that craving.

[716] I mean, there's once a group of guys in London, early days in my career, in the alcohol services, and these are all guys who had problems with alcohol, and I asked them, I said, look, I've got all the medical knowledge, but you tell me, the reality.

[717] is what makes you think you're an alcoholic.

[718] And they said something interesting, which rang true with the neuroscience later in my career.

[719] They said, we know we're alcoholics, because if we go to a pub and we ask for a drink, it won't stop.

[720] Whereas people who are drinking for other reasons can stop.

[721] Whereas we immediately change, one drink, and we change.

[722] And that was such a fantastic thing to get from these guys.

[723] I'm indebted to them because it was almost a question I'd ask.

[724] And it seems to run true.

[725] yeah nearly every case I know now we've got a problem whereas if people say no I could stop and I don't you know bite my nails when I leave I just think okay I'll have won today but someone who's got a true addiction a physical addiction they said their mind changes after one drink it's just completely different and you can't stop the craving appears I I've been saying um when I talk about my business partner Dom and he doesn't mind me talking about it because he's been on as I said he's been on this podcast talking about he's very very open and he's a big he's a big public speaker about the topic of alcohol and sobriety.

[726] But the way I would describe my experience with him and my other friends is just as a graph.

[727] So Dom's drinking, if he had, and I'd say this, I've said this multiple times.

[728] If he had one, the line of the graph would look like this.

[729] Mine would be, I could have three and then stop.

[730] So his was always like this.

[731] So if he went to the bar, I knew the end of the night would be him falling over because there wouldn't be the thing in his brain.

[732] He can't stop.

[733] He can't stop.

[734] And whereas I can have two, and I'm like, whoof, that's me done.

[735] Or I don't need any more.

[736] Or, you know, I'm whatever.

[737] Well, interesting, when I started looking at this and we detoured a bit, the neuroscience behind it brought me back to the chimp model.

[738] Because we know that we make decisions from either the chimp system or the human.

[739] And when we drink alcohol, it actually interferes with the circuits of rationality.

[740] So the human effectively gets disabled.

[741] So now our chimp is fully in charge.

[742] So it does impulsive things, which the next day it may very well regret.

[743] And that's because at the time, the decision -making they've got is impaired.

[744] So, and, you know, most people say, oh, I'm better for a drink.

[745] It's interesting that most partners say, no, they're not.

[746] They're not.

[747] So the brain actually fools itself.

[748] So there is a biological basis behind the decision -making we get when these people have got addictive genetic personalities so that they actually can't stop.

[749] I'm conscious of people thinking that, you know, because we'll all know a friend like that.

[750] Yeah.

[751] But it doesn't necessarily mean they're an alcoholic, does it?

[752] No. I mean, I don't personally like the term.

[753] I think we just look at, you know, the fact that they're addicted to a substance of some kind or they've got a craving.

[754] I'd much rather give that terminology.

[755] Otherwise, it feels a bit judgmental.

[756] So I'm just saying, you know, how do you use alcohol?

[757] Do you misuse it or do you use it appropriately?

[758] Where do you fall?

[759] And if you've got an addiction to it, then let's look at that addiction and see whether it's a physical addiction or a psychological addiction.

[760] So again, it's like going through a grid to make sure we get the right thing for the right person.

[761] One of the things you talk about extensively is about forming habits.

[762] And a lot of people in my life recently, including myself, have tried to be, tried to form habits, especially during the lockdown when so much of our lives was, our habits were broken, our cycles were broken because we were all trapped in our houses.

[763] So whether we, you know, had formed a habit of going to the Starbucks than the gym in the morning or whatever.

[764] We had our habits broken.

[765] So I spent a lot of time thinking about how I could form healthier habits in my life.

[766] One of them was working out every day.

[767] And one of the sort of, I guess, popular narratives is that if you do something for 21 days, it becomes a habit.

[768] What is the truth about habits and how we form them?

[769] I mean, there's a lot of research on this and a little bit contradictory.

[770] So read and believe what you like.

[771] But I mean, the general fail is that if you look at why we form a habit, it's either consciously done with the belief system under, or it's unconsciously done.

[772] We aren't thinking about it.

[773] A common one, for example, a poor habit is, and I use this a lot when I do keynote speeches, to say to people, when you go home, if you're with a partner that you love, how do you present to them when you arrive?

[774] And it's amazing how most people mourn, which, you know, they've not thought that what, they don't want to see somebody mourning.

[775] You don't meet someone and say, you could have this every day of your life.

[776] I'll come back and see it.

[777] You know, So what you do is you walk in and think, what habit would you like?

[778] And the belief then is, if I go in mourning, they could leave me. Yeah.

[779] It's good damage.

[780] Now that's going to shift your habit.

[781] So once you've turned the belief around this, you're unconsciously doing it without thinking, this is damaging.

[782] And so if you actually sit down and work that out and put it in your computer system, then when the chimp gets through the door, it's not going to mourn.

[783] Because what the chimp has to do scientifically is consult the computer before it does anything.

[784] It all happens in a tiny fraction of a second, but it's a computer's program to say, don't forget, it will unconsciously remind the chimp.

[785] You need to be in a good place when you walk in because that's what they're going to decide and whether they're there the next night.

[786] So you start to recognise that being someone who moans all the time or complains when you first meet someone isn't ideal.

[787] So we have these unconscious habits which we're not aware of, which we can bring to conscious by starting to look at our life and say, is this how I want to be?

[788] But you have to ask the question.

[789] Oh, we have habits like we eat too much.

[790] Now, these are different because the first one wasn't based on a drive.

[791] It's just based on a behavior that we've gotten to a pattern.

[792] The eating habits much more complex because now you've got not only a behavior that we've got into like eating too much or eating the wrong things.

[793] We're driven with an incredibly powerful survival drive to eat.

[794] So now we have to deal with two aspects.

[795] one is what is it the habit that we want to get and what are the beliefs we're going to underpin with us and how we're going to manage this drive?

[796] How we're going to fulfil the drive in a way that our chimp's happy that it's got its drive fulfilled and we're happy.

[797] So now you really have to look at that.

[798] So that's a big battle.

[799] That's not an easy battle.

[800] But it can be won.

[801] It can be won.

[802] So again, habits are not straightforward.

[803] They need to be subdivided and say, let's look at unconscious, conscious, us, whether they're linked to drives, or they link to some really bad experience.

[804] Sometimes we have a habit because they've got a bad experience.

[805] It's like you explained that you went through a really bad time with this girl.

[806] If it got repeated, God forbid, if it got repeated three or four times, you can see how your habit would be to distrust.

[807] And it would become a habit because your belief is that these women are not trustworthy.

[808] And suddenly your chip generalises, all women are like this.

[809] And you hear a guy saying this.

[810] And clear, that's a song true.

[811] you know and so with you i'd be looking and saying when you meet this what are you looking for in the girl are you looking at physical looks are you looking at do they make me laugh or are you looking at their values so we can actually start looking at how you're choosing your partners and that might help you to avoid the behavior the habits of picking up what you might then define as the wrong person and worse even to blame yourself then instead of saying right let's analyze this so again there's habits there where it's based on your belief of what you've experienced or you're letting your chimp make decisions instead of your human saying hang on can I make decisions from a more rational basis than just keep deciding on an emotional basis there's a lot of reflective work that goes into being able to understand and kind of rewrite those first like spot understand and rewrite those those those beliefs you have what is what is the path to what is the path to reflection for that, you know, not everybody can go and see yourself every day.

[812] Yeah, I mean, I'm going to be mentioned the vote now.

[813] Go ahead.

[814] Not trying to promote, but.

[815] Obviously, I've helped a lot of people, and it's been a massive privilege.

[816] It's very humbling when people do do well.

[817] But one of the complaints people said is exactly what you said.

[818] I can't work with everybody.

[819] And I've got a team.

[820] So we'd run lots of stuff, workshops and one -to -ones.

[821] However, for Joe Public, some said, I want to work on my own.

[822] And so I wrote this path through the jungle as a manual with lots of diagrams, lots of science references this time for people who want to follow them up.

[823] I hope it's really readable.

[824] And it starts from square one and says, let's look at the structure and your functioning mind.

[825] Then it takes you through this, a journey almost, through the mind saying let's look at how emotions work.

[826] We talk about grief processes and relationships, talking about interacting with others.

[827] So I've done a lot.

[828] And basically what it leads to is eventually you learn how to become robust and resilient.

[829] In other words, get yourself into a great place and this takes you with practical exercises that you try out and find the ones that resonate with you.

[830] Across eight stages?

[831] Yes.

[832] Understanding your mind, emotional management, working with emotions, changing habits and managing life events, the two main stabilisers of the mind, creating a stress for your lifestyle, optimizing interactions with others, and then stage eight is pulling it all together.

[833] One of the last thing I really wanted to talk to you about was this idea of fear of failure, which I think underpins so much of, specifically for my audience, one of the big barriers in their life.

[834] I get thousands of messages every week and it's people trying to take that step to become, to start their business or to, you know, start that hobby or pursue that dream they have.

[835] But there seems to be something holding them back.

[836] Okay.

[837] I mean, I'll just take what you've given me there because it could be a multitude of reasons.

[838] As I keep saying, everyone is unique and that's what's intriguing about working with people.

[839] It's fantastic because every person is different.

[840] But you mention a fear of failure, so I'm going to be controversial.

[841] There's no such thing in my book is the fear of failure.

[842] What we're really saying, and it's really important subtlety, as you said before about language, your fear isn't failure.

[843] It's fear of not being able to deal with the consequences of failure.

[844] Now, that might sound the same thing, but it isn't.

[845] Because if you fear of failure, there's nothing you can do with that because it could happen.

[846] So you're stuck with fearing failure.

[847] Whereas if you say I fear the consequences of failure and not being able to deal with them, now you can do something.

[848] Because we can look at the consequences and address them and get people to be able to say, I can deal with it.

[849] Whatever happens, I can deal with it.

[850] So the fear of not actually succeed and disappears because they've got this, I'm aware I've got a plan.

[851] So I meet a lot of people who say that to me, particularly athletes, I fear failure.

[852] And I have to correct it and say, that's not actually what the brain is looking at.

[853] It's saying I fear not being able to deal with the consequences of failure.

[854] And that's something I can work with.

[855] There's just two other things before we round up that I was really intrigued by.

[856] And you might have touched on both in various ways for this conversation.

[857] This idea that if you wake up in the morning and you set your state, just by saying to yourself, I'm going to have a good day, increases the chance of you having a good day.

[858] Is that true?

[859] Well, again, I'm not into brainwashing, but there is some truth in the sense that what you're really saying, if you stop, and I do advocate people to sit on the end of the bed when they get up and say, let's just reset and get some perspective before I begin my day.

[860] I do advocate this strongly.

[861] Because what you're doing is you're actually saying to your computer system, this day is going to be good.

[862] So you've added a lot of underwritten beliefs now, which are things like, I'm going to make the most of it.

[863] I have no intention of dwelling on misery.

[864] I have no intention of being negative.

[865] There's lots of things you've said in that one.

[866] statement potentially.

[867] And you've primed your computer with that.

[868] So when you go downstairs then and you get a letter on the doorstep that's got a bill, your chimp will immediately go to react, but it has to look to the computer.

[869] And if you've already said it's going to be a good day, it will remind the chimp.

[870] There's not quite stressing.

[871] It's going to be a good day.

[872] And it can, therefore, be scientifically accurate, that your chimp will stop.

[873] And that gives you a human chance to go, it's only a bill.

[874] And connected to that, my last point is about gratitude, something you talk about it looks well in the power of gratitude yeah this again the research uh shows that people who are grateful for things in the life and again i do promote this and say let's look at what you've got and let's look at what's really good things that have happened to you and there's so much we're grateful for the evidence is overwhelming that people who are grateful throughout life have really good psychological and physical good health so it affects the entire system just by being grateful and seeing life in a different setting rather than constantly thinking what I lack.

[875] Look at what you've got.

[876] And you can practice that.

[877] And you can practice and that in itself can become a habit.

[878] That can be a habit.

[879] There's lots of habits we can do.

[880] I've offered some in the book.

[881] Yeah, it's amazing.

[882] So listen, this, this book is, your first book was amazing because as you say, introduced the idea and the sort of the model.

[883] But what I think is so amazing about this book is how sort of inclusive it is and actionable.

[884] And as you said, there's pictures, there's diagrams.

[885] It feels more like, like a workbook you'd get when you were trying to methodically work through.

[886] Exactly what it is.

[887] And we're using it as a companion to the eight workshop series we do, which runs through the eight stages.

[888] So you're absolutely right.

[889] So this is for someone who really takes it seriously.

[890] And they can dip in and out, but I'd advise them to go through it steadily and apply maybe some of the themes every week.

[891] Because I think that's how we get them into our life as permanent habits, as you'd say.

[892] I can't recommend this.

[893] book enough because your work has helped so many people.

[894] And I said to you before we started recording my business partner was really struggling with problems in his life.

[895] And I said he doesn't read a ton of books.

[896] But the book that he did read was The Chimp Paradox.

[897] And he evangelizes it and credits it with helping him overcome his alcohol addiction, but really kind of get his psychological, sort of like his psychological dysfunction in order.

[898] And for you to have then gone and created a book like this, that is a methodical workbook.

[899] I think is really going to have even more impact on people and I'd highly recommend anyone listening to this.

[900] I'm not just saying this because he's sat here, but you really are an author of our time that I think has helped to shine a light on the most important thing in the world, which is the human mind.

[901] I think that is the centre point of all of our decision -making control, influence, love, happiness, fulfillment, and I don't know a book or someone better to help us understand it than this book and you.

[902] So thank you for goodness.

[903] But don't forget, congratulate your colleague, because I can only offer you.

[904] They do the work.

[905] So he's the one who's managed it.

[906] He's the one who needs to pat himself on the back.

[907] Same with everyone.

[908] You know, I don't do it.

[909] I just offer the tools that you can do it.

[910] You've got to pick them up and do them.

[911] So then congratulate yourself.

[912] So, but thank you very much for invite to me. It's been a pleasure.

[913] It's been an absolute pleasure.

[914] Thank you, Steve.

[915] Thanks.