Dermalogica Founder: Building A Billion Dollar Business While Looking After Your Mental Health

[0] You know, people who say, how do you balance your life and your work?

[1] I know that they hate one of those two parts in their own life.

[2] There is no work -life balance.

[3] 1983, we started the International Dermal Institute, which is still the number one training program in the industry.

[4] And we launched Dermologica in January of 1986.

[5] And that business generates hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

[6] We knew that the big opportunity was going to be a product.

[7] Lots of people have great ideas every day.

[8] The difference?

[9] Most people can't execute.

[10] because the details are really important and most people miss them will start to think they're petty.

[11] A brand triggers emotional responses.

[12] I'm not a diva, but I am strong and I know what makes a business successful.

[13] We can't be afraid that some people won't like what we say.

[14] We have to say it.

[15] We both know that we could just spend all of our time just doing business.

[16] What's the cost of that?

[17] I would self -sabotage relationships.

[18] We were just working so hard and Lucy came downstairs and she said, And mum, I just, and I said, Lucy, for goodness sake, what is wrong?

[19] And she said, I wanted to give you a hug, you look so cross.

[20] I was just stood there with my child in front of me, looking scared of me. That was a tipping point for me. I had to ask for help.

[21] So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO, USA Edition.

[22] I hope nobody's listening.

[23] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[24] Jane, as I delve deep into your story, into your book, it became so apparently clear to me that your early years, your childhood, were very, very formative.

[25] Can you tell me about those early years and how they shaped and molded you into the person you were to become today?

[26] I think at the time, obviously, I didn't realize exactly how formative my childhood was going to be.

[27] I think most of us look back at our childhood for better or worse and realize that's actually where so much of whatever I am as an adult came from.

[28] So I was born in Edinburgh, Scotland, the youngest of four girls.

[29] My mum and dad had been, they met in the Second World War in India.

[30] Dad was a little older than my mum.

[31] My mum was 38, my dad was 50 when he died of heart attack.

[32] suddenly, not expected, did not know he was ill. My mother, at 38, with four children, had not worked since she married.

[33] And the reason was she was a trained nurse.

[34] But at that time in the UK, and it carried on until, I think, the early 70s, and it did here too, if you were a married woman, you gave up your job to a single woman, because it was assumed that you didn't need the work.

[35] That was true in nursing and in teaching.

[36] So she hadn't worked since 1945.

[37] She also didn't know how to drive a car and she had no financial literacy.

[38] But this woman, my mother, she pulled herself together.

[39] She got work as a nurse.

[40] She had a friend who was then working at the Western General Hospital in Edinburgh.

[41] She called her up.

[42] She said, pat, I need a job.

[43] She said, What can you give me?

[44] And she said, I can give you a night shift seven to seven because I was two.

[45] So I wasn't going to school.

[46] My mom had to take care of me during the day and then go to work.

[47] And so everything was kind of determined right there.

[48] My mother drummed into every one of us learn how to do something.

[49] Because if you don't know how to do something, literally a skill set in your hands that you can turn on a penny and go into work right away, I don't she didn't know what she would have done without her training and so that became absolutely concrete in my head I have to be able to support myself I have to be able to earn my own money and I can't ever put my future in the hands of of someone else's income or success and so yes that was highly formative it then led me to the life I know I've led and also what things I care about what I think is important.

[50] And the loss of your father at two and three quarters years old, what impact in hindsight did that have on you directly?

[51] I think it was huge.

[52] One thing, the emotion I remember feeling at the time was not grief exactly because I wasn't quite sure what had happened to him.

[53] They didn't say to me right away, he's dead.

[54] that I was told he'd gone away and then my sister Judy who's next one up from me she's six years older than me told me directly he's not coming back he's dead and I at that stage I was about five four and a half five I was going to school and the next emotion I felt was shame that I didn't have a father I didn't know anyone else that didn't have a father I didn't know you could grow up in a family without a father so I hid it And as far as relationship and role modeling, I didn't realize then, but I do now.

[55] Here I am.

[56] I grew up in a household of very strong, capable women.

[57] That's how I saw them.

[58] They were all older than me, bigger than me. They helped me get dressed.

[59] They did everything.

[60] I then went to an all -girls school.

[61] And I had all women teachers.

[62] I was a brownie and a girl guide.

[63] And so I'd never had that relationship role played for me. I'd never really thought about the being, not that I, of course I knew there was a difference, but I hadn't really thought about the power dynamic.

[64] I hadn't seen that, actually.

[65] And then I went to a friend's house when I was 11.

[66] Her dad came home, we were home about 4 .30 and her dad came home at about 6, I think, and sat down right away and her mom gave him a cup of tea and he put on the TV and I thought he was sick.

[67] I said, is your dad not well?

[68] And she said, no, he's fine.

[69] And I said, oh well oh because the only time i'd ever been given a cup of tea sitting in a chair was when i was sick and my mom would say well get up and you know get dressed pot on your dressing gown so i now in later life i realize it's impacted me a great deal it it as i've been married now to raymond for well over 30 years we got married in 1990 so what's that no else longer right I'm like, how long have I been married forever?

[70] And I think that a lot, in my relationship with Raymond, I thought I was always being very independent and doing the right thing by doing everything I could, but I also realized that was exclusionary.

[71] I can be very exclusionary of the other person, hard to ask for help.

[72] Not because I consciously don't want to, but because emotionally I don't feel I need to.

[73] That's not great.

[74] So there's a lot to unpack and work through.

[75] That formative, like really pivotal advice that your mum gave you, which was learn how to do something, it seems so simple, but it was so clearly really profound for you and has been throughout your life.

[76] At that age, what is it that you wanted to learn how to do?

[77] What is it you wanted to be when you grew up when you're, you know, 11, 11 years old, say?

[78] Actually, I remember looking in the Bournemouth Evening Echo newspaper and saying to my mum, look, this hair salon is hiring 15 -year -old.

[79] apprentices and I think I was about 11 and I said I'm going to cut it out and keep it because when I'm 16 and I leave school I will apply and my mum said well I think you'll stay at school longer and I think you'll go to university which no one in my family had and I thought well maybe but that was in my head I I wanted to to I got my first Saturday job at 13 working in a salon And I saw firsthand proof that if you know how to do that, you know how to earn money.

[80] And then when that salon hired a skin therapist, then called a beauty therapist, but I don't like the word beauty when applied to people's appearance.

[81] I realized that that's actually what I want to do.

[82] I want to be a skin therapist.

[83] So it's pretty early.

[84] You don't end up going to university.

[85] At that stage, you went to university primarily if you were going to.

[86] follow a profession, legal, the law, or be a doctor or an academic or a pharmacist, or I couldn't quite grasp the immediacy of how that was going to equip me to be self -determined quickly.

[87] You see, my biggest fear growing up, after my father had passed away, was that my mum would.

[88] I used to make these elaborate plans of what would happen if my mum died and then How old was I?

[89] Would I be taken into foster care?

[90] Or would I, would my oldest sister be able to be my guardian?

[91] And at that stage, my oldest sister was 15 when my dad died.

[92] But when my older sister turned 21 and I was eight, I was so relieved because I knew now she's an adult and married, she would be able to, I'd go and live with her.

[93] So I'd make all these plans of what would happen.

[94] And I wanted to be self -determined quickly.

[95] And so when I was looking at a long haul of three years education, maybe, I just couldn't attach myself to it.

[96] I wanted to be able to do a training that I could travel with, I could work with.

[97] It would be literally in my hands.

[98] And now I realize in my head and in my heart.

[99] And it could take me anywhere I wanted to.

[100] That sounds like a consequence of the advice your mother had instilled in you that learned how to do so.

[101] and she really had tried to make you sort of autonomous and self -determined for many reasons.

[102] Yeah.

[103] So 19 years old, you look at the newspaper.

[104] Yeah, look at the newspaper.

[105] And it's a Sunday and it's freezing cold in England.

[106] It's winter in 77.

[107] And freezing.

[108] And I had a gas meter.

[109] So you had to put coins in to get the heating on.

[110] And I never had, you know, I was working as a, I disqualified.

[111] so I was but I was still working as a junior in a salon so I never had enough money and I had a boyfriend who said with me who said geez it's bloody freezing and what's the hottest place on earth today I just want to know where it is so I looked at the weather in the Sunday paper and I said it's Johannesburg and it was then it was before we went into you know Celsius I said it's 106 which was really hot and he said God I wish I was in Janisburg and I said me too where's that?

[112] And he said South Africa, geography wasn't super strong for me, turned over the page.

[113] And as I turned the page, there was a quarter page ad taken by the South African government for assisted passage that if you would emigrate to South Africa, and I think Australia and Canada used to do the same thing as well in the UK, then the government of South Africa would pay your passage they would assist it it would cost you 40 pounds to go which was really it was a lot of money but it wasn't that much money that we couldn't have scraped it together and just on a whim it was a sunday the next day salons were closed it was a monday that's pretty typical still in salons we called the number in london and um got the papers because there was no internet you couldn't google anything we'll look anything up filled them out and emigrated to South Africa.

[114] With what intention?

[115] Getting a job.

[116] I was pretty good at what I did and I knew I could get a job.

[117] I'll just get a job in a salon and I'll start working.

[118] And for a Sisti passage, you had to fulfill one of the requirements, one of the jobs that they needed to hire for.

[119] And there were 10 listed and the number one was patissera.

[120] Well, I wasn't a patissurist pastry maker.

[121] Number two was a butcher.

[122] Definitely, I wasn't a butcher.

[123] Number three was a hairdresser.

[124] Bingo for my boyfriend.

[125] And number four was then, as the name was, beauty therapist.

[126] And that was me. Wow.

[127] And how did that phase of your life go?

[128] So from between 19 and 22, roughly, when you're in South Africa.

[129] How, when you reflect on that, how was that experience?

[130] Well, it was hugely formative.

[131] First of all, we got the boyfriend and I, Tony and I, got married.

[132] it was easier to apply for assisted passage if you were a couple and you would get housing now i was also crazy about him and and he was about me and off we went 19 years old yes yes wow not a not a successful marriage we didn't know each other very well great boyfriend wrong husband and so that lasted about a year when i was in south africa and yes there I am now on the other side of the planet with no family, no cell phones, no computer, no FaceTime, there was nothing like that.

[133] In order to call her home, I had to go to the post office in Cape Town and book an international call and it was expensive.

[134] So I literally called home once a year.

[135] But I can work, which is great because I can support myself.

[136] My marriage is broken up and I've got to wait to get a divorce because there's no such thing as a sudden divorce in South Africa.

[137] but then operating under Dutch reformed church law.

[138] So I had to be separated for two years.

[139] And then they give you a decree nice eye.

[140] And then I could apply for one more year.

[141] I had to be separated, never go, not going back together again.

[142] And only then do you get your decree absolute.

[143] So it was three years before I could get divorced.

[144] I read that you walked out one day essentially from the marriage and he had emptied your personal bank account and yeah.

[145] You were pretty much still on your tracksuit on the street on your own.

[146] Yeah.

[147] was in the street.

[148] My clothing had been thrown out of an upstairs window of our rented terraced house along with some garbage bags, trash bags, rubbish bags.

[149] And I picked up the stuff that wasn't cut up, because he cut up a lot of my stuff as he threw it out, stuffed it in the trash bag, got in my car, and I drove to a friend's house, and as I drove away, I can, I feel it now, I can feel myself sitting in the car.

[150] It was a Mazda, and I was driving away, and I looked in the rearview mirror and I could hardly see because I was crying.

[151] I was really scared and emotionally very devastated and I was shaking and I looked in the rear of view mirror and I just promised myself this will never happen again.

[152] I will never allow myself to be this vulnerable.

[153] I will never allow myself to ever be in a situation that I run away with my clothes in trashbacks.

[154] I'm going to pull my act together in a big way.

[155] That was a lot that happened in that four years.

[156] That was probably the most formative time of my life.

[157] What seemed like the greatest calamity, because remember now, my mother had been widowed, but I'd now just walked out of a marriage.

[158] And at that age, I guess I thought it was, that was my marriage, not like, oh, I'll have more.

[159] I've just walked out of my marriage.

[160] I am now alone, the very thing that happened to my mother.

[161] I didn't have kids, but I think all of that was wrapped up.

[162] And, you know, I probably should have had a lot of therapy a lot sooner, but I didn't.

[163] So all of that was wrapped up.

[164] I felt incredibly vulnerable, physically vulnerable.

[165] So I hit the ground running.

[166] And I'd now got a job working for a company, for a skincare company, selling to salons.

[167] It was Regkin, which now owned by L 'Oreal.

[168] But then they're They were privately owned by an entrepreneur, Paula Kent Meehan, in Los Angeles.

[169] And she started Redkin with her hairdresser, Jerry Redding.

[170] That's where the name Red Ken came from, Jerry Redding and Paula Kent.

[171] And so I had a company car.

[172] I worked really hard.

[173] I was determined to do well, get promoted, which I did.

[174] And within a year, I had been made the brand manager for the skincare division and transferred to Johannesburg.

[175] and Johannesburg was where I met Raymond.

[176] And so how does that then lead you from Johannesburg to Los Angeles?

[177] That was Raymond Wurwind.

[178] We worked together for the next year.

[179] He was my boss's boss, so I didn't report directly to him.

[180] But I would be in meetings with him because I was the brand manager for the Skinker Division.

[181] And he was brilliant.

[182] He is brilliant.

[183] And I love and respect and admire that.

[184] We would have conversations at the table at work.

[185] and everyone would be positing some idea or another and he would see right through everything to the conclusion.

[186] He's very pragmatic.

[187] Okay, I've heard everything.

[188] This is what I'm thinking, this is what we should do.

[189] And he was right.

[190] And I saw that and I loved that.

[191] And I felt very inspired by that.

[192] And he saw in me my creativity, because I would usually be the one at that table that was saying, I know we're out of stock of that color of foundation because we haven't had a shipment from Los Angeles.

[193] But I think that was in our gift sets last Christmas.

[194] Can we see how many we've got left over in the warehouse, break open the pallets because it's now March and just take out the foundation and sell that?

[195] And that actually was true story.

[196] That's what we did.

[197] So he loved my creativity and my ideas and thinking and we would brainstorm as a group of several different companies, new product ideas, et cetera.

[198] I loved his brilliance.

[199] and I guess over that we fell in love and started secretly dating.

[200] Secretly dating.

[201] Not so secret, but yeah, secretly dating.

[202] There was no sort of HR department that would legally have stopped that then.

[203] I suppose they would now.

[204] I don't think it could happen, I'm not sure.

[205] But, yeah, and he had been in process for a green card for two years and his green card came through while we were dating.

[206] And he said, I've got 90 days to go to the states and claim my green card.

[207] If I don't go in 90 days, I forfeit it.

[208] And I said, it's like the golden ticket in Willie Wonka's chocolate bar.

[209] You can't say no. You don't say no to the green card.

[210] Get on a plane and go.

[211] And he said, well, you know, we were really, you know, serious about each other.

[212] I said, it doesn't matter.

[213] If we're meant to be together, we will.

[214] Go.

[215] And he said, okay.

[216] All right.

[217] And we sort of broke up because he got on a plane and flew to New York.

[218] And I had no idea I was going to come here.

[219] I didn't.

[220] I wasn't going to get a green card.

[221] So off he went.

[222] And that was in May of 82.

[223] And in the August of that year, Redkin, who were based in Los Angeles, wanted me to come and do a training program here because I was running the brand.

[224] And so I came on a two -week trip to L .A. And at that stage, Raymond had moved from New York to Chicago and from Chicago to L .A. So of course, we'd kept in contact.

[225] writing letters, airmail letters.

[226] And I knew he was in L .A. and we arranged to meet.

[227] And then we knew this was it.

[228] And I made a decision when I was on the flight home back to South Africa.

[229] I'm going to be there.

[230] It was September when I flew back.

[231] I'm going to be there by Christmas.

[232] I'm going to make a plan.

[233] And I did.

[234] What was the plan?

[235] I don't know if it's completely legal, but I'll tell you.

[236] So what happened was, I was here, we wanted to explore how I would get immigration, how to get work permit.

[237] And so we went to see an immigration attorney here in Los Angeles.

[238] And the easiest way was to marry Raymond, who had a green card.

[239] I wasn't going to do that because I literally didn't get my divorce until a few weeks after that, in South Africa.

[240] So that wasn't going to happen.

[241] And I wasn't coming imminently.

[242] I was thinking, you know, in a year or two.

[243] And I just wanted to understand what it would take, how I could go about it.

[244] And so I wasn't going to get married for the security of being able to emigrate.

[245] And I wasn't sure I wanted to marry him anyway because we've been dating.

[246] But I wasn't going to make that mistake again.

[247] And it was 10 years before we married, in fact.

[248] But what happened was we went through every single option of how you could get a work permit.

[249] I didn't fit any of them.

[250] I said, well, what if I had, you know, I'm a trained skin therapist.

[251] And he said, it's, you know, the training doesn't exist.

[252] The training exists here.

[253] And I said, but I'm a trained teacher in skin therapy, which didn't exist here.

[254] And actually only 70 of the 50 states even had a license to do skincare.

[255] But California was one of them.

[256] So what we put together was we started a company.

[257] Raymond started a company, but we both together started it.

[258] We registered it in Sacramento.

[259] And it cost $300 to start that company.

[260] on the understanding that I would go back to South Africa, I would be made a job offer by that company in a management position and I would transfer to the states.

[261] The caveat was I had to, I went to South Africa, had to set up a company in South Africa because you had to have a company in both places and that company had to offer someone in management in that other country a job.

[262] transfer it and and it was not illegal it was a slight loophole which I have to say has been closed because now I think you have to have 10 staff that already work for you in the States and you have to have tax returns for the last several years but that wasn't the case then and I transferred myself in on an intercompany transfer visa and you and Raymond end up starting a company together yeah the International Dermal Institute because I was on this visa and I needed, I would have to work for myself.

[263] So to begin with, I thought I'd work as an independent contractor and get a job in a salon.

[264] So I went, I did the rounds in Beverly Hills.

[265] Of the, then, that was the only place there were skincare salons that I could find in the yellow pages, which was the telephone directory.

[266] Remember, still no internet, no computers, no Google.

[267] And what I realized when I went on interviews was that everyone they were hiring had an accent from somewhere in Europe.

[268] And when I asked the people, people who were interviewing me, who were generally the owners, why are you, why do you hire people who were trained in Europe, why they're no Americans?

[269] They said the training here is a few months and we're used to several years.

[270] The training's not, not good enough for my clients, for these clients.

[271] So yes, I could have got a job.

[272] In fact, I was offered jobs at each of the salons I interviewed at as an independent contractor, which is very common in our industry.

[273] So I'd be working for myself, but in fact working in their salon.

[274] But what Raymond and I were discussing was the big opportunity, oh my goodness, what are we talking about?

[275] There is no, there are no skin therapist here, and we're in Los Angeles, we're in California, where I thought everyone was going to be getting a skin treatment every three minutes, because that was sort of the myth of the states, especially L .A. was not true at all.

[276] It was makeup and hair.

[277] It wasn't skincare.

[278] There's no such thing as a day spot.

[279] There was no such thing as a skin treatment.

[280] There was no such thing as micro -needling or any of the rest of it that we think of now.

[281] That was an industry that had to be established.

[282] And so we started a company called the International Dermal Institute and the purpose of our, it was a training program.

[283] I'd got my teaching qualification in South Africa as a skincare therapy teacher.

[284] And I'd done, you know, several years experience in the industry, wrote the curriculum and our goal was to bridge the gap in training between what was the California State Board license, which was 600 hours, about four months of training, and the two or three year full -time training that was common in Europe.

[285] And so in doing that, that would upskill the professional skin therapist to be able to start an industry that we then would continue to train.

[286] So it was almost like training, your own industry and that's exactly how it started and you know we knew this would be a huge opportunity despite many people telling us we were crazy because if it was such a good idea why wasn't it already here yeah that's a common thing to entrepreneurs if it's such a good idea how come no one thought of it before now and how did that go so you launched that sort of training school the year I got here and how did it go year one year one so really really well and I'll tell you why it went well because in that year okay so I got here in January 83 we're now in December 1983 when we incorporated the International Dermal Institute and we took that year to write the curriculum do research do our homework where were we going to draw these people from and Raymond got a job selling equipment for a skincare company that sold to salons so now we were in contact with salons and Raymond wasn't selling any of this equipment because it was too sophisticated for the training that existed here.

[287] So I started doing training for this equipment.

[288] And so I spent that whole year training salons how to use this equipment that Raymond was selling on a commission -only basis.

[289] He wasn't getting a salary.

[290] So in order to eat and pay the rent on our one -bedroom apartment, we needed him to start selling some equipment and I needed to be making money teaching.

[291] And that's how we put together our plan and that's how we put together the idea of the International Dermin Institute.

[292] So I'd had a year of, seeding students and saying, I'm going to be opening a training center.

[293] So rather than me just demonstrating this machine to you, I will be able to teach you all the techniques that I know.

[294] And that's going to be aromatherapy, manual lymph drainage, it's going to be waxing, it's going to be reflexology, things that had never even been introduced at that stage, as well as, of course, great skincare techniques.

[295] So we started the International Dermal Institute.

[296] Classes were fulled pretty much straight away.

[297] we were charging then $75 a day pretty quickly it went up to $100 a day people were driving to our one classroom in Marina del Rey which was walking distance from our apartment because we only had one car and Ray was driving it and that's how we put it together and then we built and we built a very successful training program which is still the number one advanced training program in the industry we train over 100 ,000 skin therapists every year still.

[298] So we train around the world.

[299] But what I realized in the following two years, there was no American -made professional salon product.

[300] And that was something that you didn't train and get a certificate and leave.

[301] You would be purchasing on a repeat basis.

[302] So we knew, because that was our background, was product as well.

[303] We knew that the big opportunity was going to be a product.

[304] When you think about why the training was so successful and why you as an individual and your husband succeeded in that, what are the like factors where you think, do you know what, that's the thing that made us different, whether it's character or execution or whatever it is.

[305] Yeah, I know exactly what it was.

[306] I'd love to tell you it was because I wrote the most brilliant curriculum and I am the best teacher, neither of which is true.

[307] I wrote a good enough curriculum and I'm a good enough teacher.

[308] but what we did somewhat inadvertently is sort of accidentally on purpose if you know what I mean community we knew because I had been that skin therapists are isolated we work in rooms on our own and the busier you become the more full your book is with appointments you're in the treatment room which is about an 8 by 10 room with your client it's not and was not then performed out in the public like hairdressing.

[309] When you're a hairdresser, you can look across the salon and see five other people doing your job as you do and you learn from them and you're inspired by them and you have a feeling of community in a salon and I knew that because I'd been part of full -service salons where they're cutting hair and giving skincare treatments and doing nails.

[310] And so we knew that what was missing was this sense of community.

[311] All of our students that were coming to the classes, none of them really knew each other.

[312] They'd never met other skin therapists.

[313] They'd never met other skin So we're only 2 ,000 in the whole state, so it wasn't surprising.

[314] So we doubled down.

[315] Our whole mantra was make every excuse, think of every idea to bring our people together.

[316] Guest speaker evenings, power breakfasts, working lunchies, summer picnics, holiday party.

[317] We were doing everything.

[318] Any idea we saw from what we saw in a coffee shop to what we saw in a shoe repair shop, we were doing whatever we thought would help us pull people together for the ostensible reason of training in skincare, but in fact was making them into a community.

[319] So much so that after about 18 months, two years, my students said to me, you know what, we're like family.

[320] And I said, yes, although we don't have the same accents.

[321] And they laughed and they said, no, we're not family.

[322] we're a tribe.

[323] It is human nature.

[324] That was the core of our success.

[325] And what I see now, and in the last two years of COVID, we've never needed it more than now.

[326] More than ever, we need human connection.

[327] We are sick of our Netflix and our streaming and our everything.

[328] We want human connection.

[329] We want to see each other.

[330] I want to see your smile.

[331] I want to see your face.

[332] I want to hug you.

[333] I want to touch you.

[334] And guess what?

[335] The industry that I have spent my life in has never been more relevant than now, because we're the cavalry.

[336] That's what we do as our work.

[337] We literally touch people, not because they're to look pretty pampering, luxury or indulgence, because human connection is the deepest form of unconditional love.

[338] It's such a profound but seemingly obvious piece of advice for how to build an engaged customer base how to build great company culture how to build an audience if you're a social media influencer but that but you're right it's it's right at the heart of our sort of maslovian innate human needs is to belong to a tribe yeah and what a lot of people do as they become successful they start to distance themselves from it they start to think that was i'm bigger than that or i'm better than that what there's nothing better than being connected to other people in a loving kind empathetic I talk a lot, you know, in my book that you know, about empathy and the power of kindness.

[339] And I continue to learn that all the time and be accessible.

[340] I would always be accessible to my students.

[341] When we built our premises, our lunchroom was for students and staff.

[342] I would eat lunch in the lunchroom with everyone else.

[343] We all did because we wanted, I want to be with everybody else.

[344] I don't want to be on my own.

[345] I want to be with everyone else.

[346] And I want everyone else to know that they can be with all of us.

[347] We're all in this together.

[348] Whether it's somebody, when you own a business and you think you're all that, well, guess what?

[349] The people that are in your janitorial staff, your housekeepers, they're making you look good every day because that's the image that people have when they come in.

[350] When I go to a restaurant, the first thing I notice is how clean is it?

[351] How well cared for is it?

[352] Is it loved?

[353] Is this space loved?

[354] And can I see that it's loved?

[355] Are people taking pride in this space?

[356] Because all of that is non -communicate, that's non -verbal communication.

[357] and it all matters.

[358] And we forget it because we start to think it's us.

[359] We're the things.

[360] We're the ones.

[361] We're the one.

[362] It's nonsense.

[363] Complete and utter nonsense.

[364] And the minute you start to feel that way, you will fall.

[365] How would your team members that have worked for you, say, for 10 years, describe you as a leader in terms of that balance you describe of empathy and kindness and then also strength and decisiveness?

[366] Well, there's a lot of people that have worked, have and had worked for me for more than 10 years.

[367] I'm thinking now of Laurie McGregor, who's our director of con, senior director of Com Communications.

[368] She's in the studio right now, and I could ask her, because she's certainly worked with me closely for many years.

[369] I hope they would describe me as fair.

[370] I hope they would describe me as kind.

[371] I hope they would describe me as accessible.

[372] I hope they'd also say I was collaborative, because that's what I like to think I am.

[373] I believe I am.

[374] What about the weaknesses?

[375] Lots.

[376] more than I could probably name my strengths.

[377] I'm impatient.

[378] I want things to be done now rather than tomorrow.

[379] It can make me careless.

[380] I see the floors.

[381] I see the good, but I also see the floors.

[382] If I walk into a salon and somebody missed a piece of hair that wasn't swept up, I'm going to see it first.

[383] I just am.

[384] I can't help it.

[385] I have that kind of vision.

[386] Yes, the product looks amazing.

[387] Yes, the lighting is great.

[388] Yes, I love your uniform and I love the storefront and the great job you did with the windows.

[389] But why the hell is that hair in the corner not swept up?

[390] I can't take my eyes off it.

[391] But I'm also not above going in the back, finding the dustpan and brush, and brushing it up myself, because I will.

[392] Will you say it like that?

[393] Yes.

[394] Yeah.

[395] I'll say it just like that.

[396] you know when you say it like that about the hair being on the floor that it will make people feel a certain way I'm the same yeah so why do you say it like that well I would I probably the likelihood would be I would start that conversation by saying to the person I'm sorry do you have a dustpan and brush in the kitchen in the staff room and they'll say yeah why I'll say just just show me what is you have to do it and I would come out with a dust pan and brush, and I would sweep it up.

[397] And then I'd say, because the only thing I could look at when I came in here was that hair in the corner.

[398] Now, let's talk about all the great things you do, but let's never forget that that's important.

[399] It might be some version of that.

[400] But I certainly wouldn't say, I wouldn't walk in and go, I'm sorry, excuse me, before we do anything, I can't see a thing.

[401] That hair in the corner, someone sweep it up.

[402] I wouldn't do that.

[403] I'm not a diva.

[404] But I am strong, and I know what makes a business successful.

[405] And I can't allow a business to not hear what my thought is if I think it will make them more successful.

[406] And I know it will.

[407] It's not a matter of taste or style.

[408] That's a matter of hygiene.

[409] So then I'm fierce.

[410] And that attention to detail, tell me how important it is in your view.

[411] Now you've been in business for so long.

[412] How important is, because some people say, oh, that's petty.

[413] No, it's huge.

[414] It's everything.

[415] The devil and God are in the details.

[416] Here's the deal.

[417] There is no shortage of a good idea.

[418] Lots of people have great ideas every day.

[419] The difference?

[420] Most people can't execute.

[421] And if they can execute, they don't execute well.

[422] And if they execute well, they can't maintain it.

[423] How do you stay relevant and growing in an industry like my industry, cosmetics, makeup, skincare, hair?

[424] fashion.

[425] How do you stay relevant for almost 40 years and stay the leader if you're not paying attention to detail?

[426] You'll peek and you'll drop in a quick minute.

[427] You're going to be a party that happened overnight.

[428] You're not going to be a relationship that lasts a lifetime.

[429] Two different things.

[430] Both can be fun, but one is a long game that you're playing and one is a short -term fix that you want.

[431] And that's very different.

[432] It's like dating and a marriage or dating in a long relationship.

[433] You're playing a long game.

[434] And for me, business was always about playing the long game.

[435] We didn't build Dermologica to flip it and sell it.

[436] We could have done that after three or four years.

[437] And if it wasn't going well, we probably would have done.

[438] But we were self -funded on $14 ,000, highly profitable, and took it all the way through to acquisition in 2015 by Unilever.

[439] And I'm still involved with Dermological.

[440] I still function.

[441] My title is chief visionary and when things are going wrong or I think you're making the wrong turn I'm going to tell you you don't have to listen to me you don't have to agree with me but I'm going to I have to know that I said it because the details are really important and most people miss them or start to think they're petty the other thing you mentioned which I found fascinating is you added to your list of weaknesses impatience yeah but you are well aware of the strengths of of course that's the thing whatever is your weakness flip it it's like a coin the other side is your strength now I know that sounds like complete opposite right but I'm impatient so as a weakness especially when I'm tired I'm not making tiredness an excuse but especially when I'm tired it can make you angry it can make you short -tempered it can make you um rude And so you have to take a moment and get yourself in check because impatience can also lead to a fast pace, to a quick idea, to a rapid execution, to a sense of urgency, to a sense of excitement, to a sense of enthusiasm, to a definite sense of leadership in the team.

[442] So that very quality is your strength and is your weakness, and you have to be able to, I say in the book, you have to, I say in the book, you have to, have to have a truth teller.

[443] Now, hopefully your truth teller is yourself so that you can say that wasn't my best self or that was not, that was my strength at its weakest moment.

[444] And if you don't, if you're not good at being truthful or honest with yourself, you better have somebody around you that is.

[445] Because you'll have a lot of, you know, ask kisses around you, especially when you're successful.

[446] Not when you start, but especially when you're successful.

[447] And you have to know, It's not necessarily because they're insincere, but they're not going to be your truth tellers.

[448] So that's lovely to have, and it's lovely maybe for your ego or whatever it is, for inviting to parties, but you have to have some truth tellers.

[449] Have you got truth tellers around you?

[450] Yes.

[451] That will tell you when you're out of line, or that you've been rude?

[452] Yes.

[453] Who are those people?

[454] My number one truth teller is Raymond.

[455] Yeah.

[456] He will tell me he has no filter.

[457] He has no ability to edit.

[458] He's about the kindest and most generous person.

[459] I've ever known.

[460] He's certainly the smartest person, but he has absolutely no edit button.

[461] And I will say to him sometimes, Remen, I cannot believe he just said that.

[462] He said, but it's true.

[463] It's true.

[464] And he's right.

[465] Okay, so that's Raymond.

[466] And then I have people in my tight team, Natalie Byrne, who works with me on strategy for our non -profit, she will call me and has many times, sometimes late at night and say, Jane, I can't stop thinking about this.

[467] I think what you said today was off base or off the mark or whatever it is.

[468] And we talk about it and she's almost 100 % right.

[469] And that's, I tell her, Natalie, I love you because you tell me the truth.

[470] Don't ever, she said, I don't want to hurt your feelings.

[471] I said, Natalie, please, you will not hurt my feelings.

[472] On the point of impatience, one of the things I read that, I really resonated with a lot.

[473] And it's in fact something that Barack Obama had said when I spoke at a conference with him in Brazil is this idea of making decisions.

[474] Yes.

[475] Before you're at 100%.

[476] And people really struggle with this.

[477] some people, it's the most liberating thing they can hear.

[478] And I've had a guest come on this podcast that said, when you said that, that changed my life.

[479] I read you, you said the exact same thing.

[480] You said, you know, get to 70%.

[481] Yeah, that's my number.

[482] I don't even know if that's the real number.

[483] But it just feels right.

[484] Yeah, 70 % sounds right.

[485] If you got 70 % of the information that you will need to make a decision, make it.

[486] Don't, you will not get 100%.

[487] Because by the time you even think you're at 100%, the situation's changed.

[488] It needs a decision.

[489] It needs a decision.

[490] now.

[491] Leadership requires decisiveness and you need to make a decision immediately.

[492] Whether it's in a war -torn country or whether it is in a strived -driven life, I mean, you need to make the decision.

[493] So I would say to people who I would hire, let me give you the lowdown of how this works, because most people want to know how do I become successful in this company, let's say, or words to that effect.

[494] And my answer was always, you will get 10 points for making the right decision.

[495] You will get no points for making the wrong decision, but you will get minus 10 points if you don't make a decision.

[496] You can't be in a meeting and not speak up because then you're an audience.

[497] I don't want an audience.

[498] You can get a chair and sit over there and listen if you want to, but you must have an opinion and you must state it.

[499] That's what you're here for.

[500] That's why we want you.

[501] Decisiveness is critical because in order to make that decision, I have to hear all the opinions.

[502] Doesn't mean I'm going to, it's going to persuade me differently, although it might.

[503] But ultimately, the buck stops with the person who's going to have to make that ultimate decision and you must make it.

[504] One of the other quotes which I found really interesting and inspiring was that your aim when you started Dermologica was to piss off the 80 % and to please the 20%.

[505] That's quote taken from your bookskin in the game.

[506] Yeah, Raymond, that's Raymond's phrase.

[507] In fact, What happened was we were, I won't use the word beauty.

[508] And so I was bemoaning the fact that, you know, people didn't agree with that.

[509] You know, I used to get people saying this, you know, you're running down our industry.

[510] You're disgraced to our industry because I wouldn't say I was a beauty therapist and or a beautician.

[511] And I mean, these are all great names.

[512] I'm happy for you to call yourself anything you want to just doesn't apply to me. I don't apply that to my work.

[513] So I was having this sort of like rant with Raymond.

[514] And he said, but we can't.

[515] can't be afraid that some people won't like what we say.

[516] We have to say it.

[517] We actually ran an ad on based on that conversation, which was Mel, who worked front desk for us, holding a sign saying, we're not pretty.

[518] And at the bottom, we just put the company logo.

[519] And because, and Ray said, we understand something.

[520] This was a team of us marketing.

[521] We have to be prepared to piss off 80 % or will never turn on.

[522] on 20 % will be middle of the road, mediocre, average, palatable, but not definable.

[523] That's a product.

[524] That's not a brand.

[525] A brand has a voice.

[526] A brand has a personality.

[527] A brand triggers emotional responses.

[528] And so that became our kind of watchword in marketing.

[529] We need to piss off 80 % and turn on 20%.

[530] We don't need everyone to like us.

[531] And if we're not being decisive, and if we're not being truthful, and if we're not being slightly disruptive, we're not being true to ourselves.

[532] And if we're not doing any of that, then everyone's going to like us, but not a lot.

[533] No one's going to hate us, but not a lot.

[534] And we can't walk that middle ground.

[535] So it was a couple of years into your training company that you launched Dermologica.

[536] Yeah.

[537] Yeah, so 1983, we started the International Dermal Institute, and we launched Dermologica in January of 1986.

[538] And the resistance you faced, talk to me about the resistance and the challenges you faced in trying to launch that company, because I know there were plenty.

[539] Well, at that time, everything was sort of, the industry was segmented into cosmetics.

[540] cosmetics.

[541] That included skincare, hair care, makeup, whatever you can think of, artifice, decoration.

[542] That's why I don't ever put skincare in the cosmetic industry, which is an amazing industry and I love it.

[543] But it's not my industry.

[544] My industry is skincare.

[545] It's very specific and it's different and it's closely related to nutrition, healthcare and self -care.

[546] So, and human connection.

[547] So therefore, when we started, we wanted to form this hybrid between a cosmetic and a pharmaceutical.

[548] There was nothing in the middle of those two things then, 1986.

[549] But remember, this is conversation happening in 85 because we launched in 86.

[550] So we wanted to put together this thing between the two.

[551] So what did that mean?

[552] It had to look like a pharmaceutical, but perform like a cosmetic had to be cosmetically elegant, but it couldn't look luxury, it couldn't be a pink jar with a gold lid.

[553] So all of that idea of branding influenced what our voice was going to be.

[554] The name, derma means skin, logica means sensible, sense.

[555] Simple, serious and unique.

[556] That was kind of our mantra.

[557] So we took a lot of pushback for that.

[558] We were told our packaging's ugly.

[559] Why don't you use jars?

[560] jars are, you know, the industry's standard and they're disgusting and because they contaminate with bacteria, not just from your hands, but also because we tend to use our products in bathrooms now, not at dressing tables in your dressing room.

[561] And in a bathroom, e coli bacteria is airborne.

[562] There's more bacteria in your bathroom than anywhere else.

[563] So you really don't want that in a jar of cream.

[564] It's like people have a bar of soap in their shower and they take that bar and somebody uses the bar and washes their bits and pieces and the next person gets in and washes their face.

[565] It's disgusting.

[566] So we was talking about all of this and we were getting pushed back and we just we just weathered it and I spoke at a big conference for the industry in Glasgow, a world conference in 1987 and I was speaking about this kind of thing and after I had 25 minutes assigned to me for my presentation and after I think it was about nine, minutes, the organisers came up and switched the mic off and asked me to leave the stage.

[567] Because they said what I was talking about was counterpoint to kind of anarchy in the industry.

[568] And what I was talking about was that salons should not be gender specific, that we shouldn't have male salons and female salons.

[569] In fact, there is no gender binary.

[570] And we should sell product in our salons because clients need to have product to take home and maintain the results they just paid us for in the treatment room.

[571] And apparently me suggesting that there is no binary in a target market for our work, skincare, and skincare is not a luxury, it should be a necessity for everyone and we should retail products was deemed to be an anarchy in the industry.

[572] Now, it pissed off, 80 % of the people, I guess, in that room, I don't know.

[573] But the 20 % of skin therapists who heard that message crowded our stand there at the trade show that was part of that conference and applauded.

[574] When I got back to our booth, there were a crowd of skin therapist applauding because they were waiting to have a business, a profession, an industry to be a proud of, and it was not a hobby or something I did for pin money or something I did on the side or something that, you know, it's my little thing.

[575] I love skin.

[576] I don't make any money at it.

[577] They said, we need a career.

[578] We need a profession.

[579] We need an industry and a voice that will speak for us because we love this work and we want it to be profitable.

[580] Otherwise, how do we pay the rent?

[581] And so that was my rallying call.

[582] The 20 % were always my tribe.

[583] I think that's, it's so unbelievably important, especially as it relates to marketing and branding to have a perspective to stand for something or else you fall into this category of like indifference and people trying to please everyone and pleasing no one, as you say.

[584] Yeah.

[585] I, you know, the business did phenomenally well as well.

[586] So Dermologica, you made a million dollars roughly in your first year.

[587] Yeah.

[588] Eventually that business gets acquired by Unilever.

[589] Your other company still to this day is going incredibly strong.

[590] As you say, it's the number one in the world in its category.

[591] I think I read that you had 1 ,400 employees.

[592] Yeah.

[593] Or something like that.

[594] Staggering.

[595] Yeah.

[596] And that business generates hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

[597] How hard did you have to work?

[598] How many hours were you working in those early Dermological days?

[599] Oh, it's a blur.

[600] 24.

[601] 24.

[602] No, seriously, the minute we woke up, 7 o 'clock, earlier, if it was something we were fretting about or a trade show that we had to pack up and go.

[603] all the way through till we fell asleep.

[604] I don't, there is no work -life balance.

[605] It's all your big, messy life.

[606] You know, people who say, how do you balance your life and your work?

[607] I know that they hate one of those two parts in their own life.

[608] I've never wanted to.

[609] It's not that my life is my work or my work is my life.

[610] It's all part of my life.

[611] And I want all of it.

[612] So I try and make it happen.

[613] I can't do it all at the same time.

[614] I waited until I was 36 to have my first child.

[615] I really thank God that I was able to have two children and kind of snuck in what I feel under the rope and a lot of people that doesn't happen for them.

[616] I feel really grateful for that.

[617] But the reason, one of the reasons we put off having children was we were just working so hard and traveling.

[618] It was word of mouth where there was no social media.

[619] There were no influences.

[620] The influences were our skin therapists.

[621] Word of mouth meant, you had to find someone and tell them.

[622] So we were working every trade show.

[623] I was flying to New York where all the magazines were being published.

[624] And with my box of products, when I was literally sitting in the lobby of Condonast, hoping that any one of the editors from any one of their magazines, you know, please God, it might be vogue, will come downstairs and I can grab them in the lobby before they get out the door or see them as they get in the elevator.

[625] That was before they had secure elevators.

[626] So you could get into the elevator with some.

[627] and give them literally an elevator pitch before they got to the 14th floor where their magazine was.

[628] And I was lonely and I was scared and I would go to Vogue and, you know, all the magazines or Hearst publishing and just sit there with my little box of products thinking, what am I doing?

[629] I was just like, pull it together because you've got to keep watching those doors when those elevator doors open.

[630] If it's someone you've got to go over and say one minute and press that sample of skin prep scrub into their hands.

[631] And it worked.

[632] What's the cost of that, though, that working, you know, seven days a week, tremendous hours?

[633] What is the cost?

[634] I think the greatest cost is friendships.

[635] I had friends who really were annoyed that we were just never available.

[636] Me as a person and I was a couple, because we came as a couple, really.

[637] So we were never available for Sunday brunch.

[638] We couldn't go out on a Saturday night because I was teaching on a Sunday.

[639] I taught every Sunday.

[640] We were running errands on a Saturday.

[641] We were doing laundry every night after the class.

[642] And we lost a lot of friends that I looked back and I'm sorry that we lost them because I liked them and I thought that our friendship might have a shot atwithstanding it.

[643] But the friends who are still our friends understood it.

[644] And they talk about it now and say, oh my God, just remember when?

[645] And we say, yes.

[646] I would invite everyone for dinner, but we were having Indian takeout because I couldn't cook.

[647] I mean, not, I can cook, but I didn't have time to.

[648] I didn't have time to do the shopping.

[649] There was no Instacot.

[650] We kept our closest friends and our dearest friends are still with us.

[651] But I think friendship is the thing, the thing you lose.

[652] Did you have to, because I'm thinking, once upon a time, I was in a relationship with someone I worked with.

[653] Did you have to make time, like, you know, romance time?

[654] Date night.

[655] No. Have you ever done anything like that?

[656] Never.

[657] I've never had a date night.

[658] Really?

[659] No. How does that work?

[660] So you say we're going on a date on Thursday.

[661] Yeah.

[662] So then we go on a date.

[663] So we're going out to dinner, maybe.

[664] Whatever you're doing, you're walking on the beach.

[665] You're having a lone time with that person.

[666] And do you not talk about anything other than your relationship?

[667] I don't know.

[668] You talk about the food on the menu and I don't know, the music or, you know.

[669] And then there's sort of pressure that you're going to have sex or whatever.

[670] I'm just wondering, I've never done a date night because I can't even, I know what Raymond would say.

[671] because we've talked about it.

[672] And I've said to him, do you want to go on a, like if you ever heard about this date night, this is like years ago and he'd go, what's that?

[673] And I said, you know, where you get together with your partner and you talk about things that you just talk about yourselves, I guess, or like your relationship, the things that are important, important.

[674] What do you think about that?

[675] He said, don't we do that every night?

[676] And the answer is, yes.

[677] I mean, for our relationship, I'm not for one second saying you shouldn't have a date night.

[678] We know that Barack Obama and Michelle Obama used to famously have their date nights.

[679] I'm just not sure that.

[680] Ray and I would be able to keep a straight face on it.

[681] We talk about everything all the time.

[682] If we're upset with each other, we say, I'm really upset with what you said to me yesterday.

[683] I just felt like you weren't listening to me. Or we went to a dinner party and I kept trying to catch your eye at the dinner table because I was sat next to this ridiculous, crazy person who was like saying the biggest conspiracy theories in the world to me and you wouldn't look at me. You've got to remember.

[684] We've got to look at each other so I can catch your eye.

[685] for us it's just one big messy relationship and we never took our personal arguments to work we did used to bring work conversations home we called them fierce conversations but ray and I are the kind of couple that we will we call it you know you put the mattresses against the wall you you stay in the room mattresses against the wall until you have figured it out and you are not leaving this room until we do and we will reach it We will reach a point of agreement.

[686] And we will.

[687] So you don't let that resentment sort of foster?

[688] No, try not to.

[689] Sometimes it's inevitable.

[690] It still bugs me some things that Raymond does.

[691] I know that I annoy the hell out of him sometimes.

[692] But nothing that's important enough to not be playing a long game for life with this person.

[693] You made a comment earlier on about therapy.

[694] And I thought it was, I wasn't sure if it was flipping or serious.

[695] But have you ever been to therapy?

[696] And what for?

[697] I had not seen a therapist, although I now realize I really should have.

[698] I'm quite positive about that until about five years ago.

[699] And what happened five years ago, it was pretty soon after we'd sold the company, which was momentous.

[700] But I felt like I was dealing with it fine.

[701] Raymond lost his father, passed away.

[702] We had a house in Santa Barbara that we were, that was our first.

[703] forever house.

[704] We went up to Santa Barbara.

[705] We raised our kids every summer up there.

[706] It's a beach community about 80 miles north of Los Angeles.

[707] That's our go -to place where we feel safe.

[708] We feel protected.

[709] If we ever had a staff event that we wanted to have a small group and discuss stuff, we would do it in Santa Barbara.

[710] We had meetings there.

[711] It was just like our place.

[712] And we had this great house, like a farmhouse, and I loved the garden, and I replanted the garden, and I loved the house.

[713] And in January of 2018, Santa Barbara had a massive fire, the Thomas fire.

[714] And soon after, there was flash flooding and a giant mudslide from the mountains above.

[715] And our house was destroyed.

[716] And if we had been in it, which we were not, and this, The only reason we were not is this mudslide happened the late hours of January 8th, early morning, January 9th.

[717] And Lucy, our youngest child's birthday is January 8th, and we came back to L .A. to celebrate it with her friends here.

[718] If we'd been in our house in Santa Barbara, we wouldn't have made it out.

[719] A huge, massive boulder came straight through the master bedroom, which was on the ground floor.

[720] And we would have, we would have been killed.

[721] that was the tipping point for me and to begin with I felt like I just wasn't coming to terms with the fact that we'd lost the house and Raymond was becoming really worried about me and he kept saying Jane I cannot believe you're attaching this much to a place to a house to a possession to our stuff it's stuff like we're safe and for some reason I just couldn't put it down I couldn't get through it I was carrying it with me like a weight and I wasn't sleeping and I started not sleeping and I went for 41 nights with less than 44 hours sleep a night.

[722] I clocked it and I went to see my doctor who said I think we need to book you into the sleep clinic at UCLA, the University of California, Los Angeles and there was a three month wait list.

[723] So I decided I was going to go talk to my doctor about sleeping tablets.

[724] And I went and he recommended Ambien.

[725] And I'd never taken Ambien.

[726] And I really didn't know if I wanted to start taking that.

[727] And he casually said, well, maybe, you know, psychologically there's a reason you're not sleeping.

[728] So I decided I'd go see a psychiatrist who I knew.

[729] Our youngest child had had an eating disorder and had seen this person, this doctor.

[730] And I went to her and I said, I'm not sleeping.

[731] And And she said, let me do some cognitive testing, which she did.

[732] And then she said, okay, you are, did you drive here?

[733] And I said, yeah.

[734] And she said, you shouldn't drive home.

[735] You cognitively should not be driving.

[736] We've got to get you sleeping.

[737] And through trial and error, she tried every sleeping tablet on the market.

[738] And nothing helped me. 10 milligrams of milligram didn't help.

[739] I'd wake up after three hours.

[740] And ultimately, she said, Jane, you don't have an insomnia problem.

[741] You have an anxiety problem.

[742] And I had to dig in and deal with it.

[743] And of course, as I dug in to losing the house, it wasn't about the house.

[744] The house was representative of every loss I've ever had in my life, going all the way back to when I was two and three quarters years old and lost my father, had to go all the way back and dig in and unpack it and realize why, not who I am, but why I am who I am.

[745] had that not happened had i not been able to unpack all of that and then realize how much i had in that suitcase and which pieces it was okay to put in a cupboard and close it no it's there but not have to wear it every day and which were the bits i needed to wear every day because it was so much part of who i am i i know i couldn't have written the book and i don't know that i would be in the place i am today is it the awareness of what's going on on in the suitcase that that is the liberating thing or is there also like tools and techniques and strategies of dealing with triggers or moments that I think it's both but for me what has been successful is having the right questions asked and you're excellent at this so you know this how did that make you feel or what were you thinking then or what did you do immediately after that And not having that person tell me therefore what happened, but allowing me to think, oh, that's interesting.

[746] I had a bath or whatever it might be, you know.

[747] And then slowly over the next, sometimes it's a few days, sometimes it's a few months, sometimes a couple of years, you start to realize I'm seeing a pattern here.

[748] There's a pattern here that I'm recognizing in myself.

[749] And then, for me, the tools, I get given tools to try, encouraged to try.

[750] Try thinking about it this way.

[751] One thing when I would talk about my childhood, for example, and I was ashamed that I didn't have a father.

[752] And I felt ashamed when my mother started to develop Alzheimer's and was still socially active, but clearly not herself.

[753] I've reframed that as how proud I am of my parents and I am and I'm proud of my mum's fortitude and I'm proud of her determination and I can talk with pride about my mother and father and not feel anything else, not feel any other emotion other than of course love and I'm really grateful for that and I think that a lot of people not laugh at therapy but knock it And I think it's because it's probably the single most terrifying thing you ever do is really look deep at your choices and actions and behaviours.

[754] And it's much kinder to oneself to just keep it packed up.

[755] We can keep that locked away.

[756] We don't need to discuss it.

[757] Don't look at that.

[758] Stop talking about that.

[759] You don't need to talk about that.

[760] That's over.

[761] That's in the past.

[762] Why do you keep talking about that?

[763] Don't.

[764] You don't need to.

[765] You're okay now.

[766] Oh, best not to talk.

[767] bother, best not to leave well alone.

[768] I've heard all that my whole life.

[769] I mean, I grew up under that, not just from my family, but from people.

[770] And I realize now, no, I think that's the only way you really find who you are.

[771] And maybe you can do it with best friends helping you.

[772] Maybe you can do it as a client of a skincare therapist who listens to everything you tell them.

[773] And if you do, that's great.

[774] But however it works for you, find the way that helps you examine.

[775] Because a life unexamined is a life not lived.

[776] So, so interesting.

[777] You know, I sit here with lots of guests on this podcast and many of them have taken the leap or made the decision at some point to go to therapy and to start kind of unpacking things that have happened to them in their life.

[778] And yet I still, and they speak to the profound impact, positive impact it's had on their life.

[779] And yet I still, as I sit here today, definitely feel a stigma myself about going.

[780] Yeah, it's okay.

[781] You're 28.

[782] You know, I'm 29, yeah.

[783] 29, okay, so definitely people told me, many people I was in relationships told me in my 20s that, you know, you should see someone or, you know, and I, to me there was a stigma.

[784] There was nothing wrong with me. And I had good friends that I could talk to and I had sisters I could tell.

[785] But none of them are completely as objective as we think they might be.

[786] And, of course, it's not completely confidential.

[787] And I'm now 63.

[788] I'm going to be 64 next Saturday.

[789] and I think there's a point where we start to be ready and if not not and you'll know when it is because your body will tell you won't be your mind it won't be the stigma it'll be something I thought I had insomnia I could have just probably started swallowing ambient and thinking oh well this doesn't work either I guess I'm just getting older and I don't sleep but you see I wasn't able to function without sleeping.

[790] So my body literally took me to a place where I had to ask for help and it took all those years.

[791] And so it's okay that there's a stigma.

[792] It's okay, you don't want to do it.

[793] Then don't do it.

[794] Maybe it's not right for you now, probably not very much to unpack, even though you feel like there's a lot.

[795] And maybe you haven't seen the pattern repeat itself enough for you to think, oh, it's not that person or that person.

[796] This is actually my pattern.

[797] And so, you know, I just think all of us should find our way however we can.

[798] The symptoms, the symptoms culminated, well, the unpacked suitcase culminated in this insomnia later in your life.

[799] But now in hindsight, now that you've been and you've spoken about it and you've unpacked these things and understood them better, can you identify other symptoms that were present at other phases in your life or was it just at that point when you got an insomnia that you thought, well, I need to...

[800] No, I see it all the way, yeah.

[801] I see I used to pride myself that I left a relationship before anyone left me. Ah.

[802] Right.

[803] And I think because of that fear of being the one left alone, I would self -sabotage relationships, whether they be friendships or whether they be personal intimate relationships and that might work very well until you have children and that changes everything for me well because you are forced I tell a story in my book about my youngest child Lucy before cell phones we had established a routine of we all had breakfast together Ray and I always ate breakfast together, even if it was a banana and a cup of tea stood in the kitchen.

[804] And then as we had children, we would literally take 10 minutes to just sit around the table and have a piece of toes to bowl of cereal, whatever, and just say, you know, have a great day.

[805] And, you know, you didn't have to have any kind of profound conversation, just be present.

[806] And with cell phones, I started to get, you know, emails and texts coming in from our markets in Europe that were already 4 o 'clock in the afternoon at 8 o 'clock in the morning.

[807] you know that.

[808] You're nodding now.

[809] Because you do.

[810] So we had a 24 -hour business.

[811] And so I started to get into the habit of just checking, just quickly, just checking my emails and texts before I sat down to breakfast.

[812] And then I would walk Lucy to the bus stop for school.

[813] And then it got to where I would check them before I sat down for breakfast so that I knew what was on my plate.

[814] And then I'd walk at a school.

[815] And then it got to, I would check them.

[816] And then maybe I couldn't sit down for breakfast because I had to just quickly answer this text.

[817] You know how that goes.

[818] It's a slippery slope.

[819] But I'm so busy and I'm successful and I'm working.

[820] I'm not fooling around.

[821] I'm not like, you know, reading the comics or anything at the back of the paper.

[822] I'm working.

[823] I mean, I'm answering a super crisis.

[824] There's a crisis in New Zealand.

[825] So I was on my phone and earlier I come down at like 6 .30 and I was busy scrolling and I had to quickly answer.

[826] There was a catastrophe.

[827] It was a bit of a disaster happening in the UK and I had to answer them.

[828] They needed an answer now because it was the end of the day there.

[829] and Lucy came downstairs and she said morning mom and I said and I didn't say I just kind of like nodded and said waved at her like hi hi she sat down and I was busy texting texting looking at something and she said and then from the chair she got up from the table and she said mom and I said Lucy just one minute hang on and I'm done mom and I said Lucy just one minute please and carry on and she said mom I just and I said Lucy please can you not see I'm busy I've got a whole thing happening in the UK and I have to get back to them and I suddenly saw her eyes well up and I said Lucy for goodness sake what is wrong and she said I wanted to give you a hug you look so cross and it was I was just stood there with this stupid bloody phone in my hand and my child in front of me looking scared of me and I just put down the phone I got on my knees I gave her a big hug and said Lucy I'm so sorry and she started crying then I started crying I said Lucy I'm so sorry there is nothing more important than you and being here right now I got distracted by business it's not acceptable I promise you it will never happen again and I made a rule it never did.

[830] Doesn't make me any more perfect apparent.

[831] My mum was very busy.

[832] She worked a lot.

[833] It's not about that.

[834] It's about knowing when the moment, it's not a long moment, is important to pay attention.

[835] And that day, at least for that person, my child, when someone says, mum, I'm listening.

[836] How do you make sure that despite the crisis that might emerge, at any given moment in any day and also just the general gravitational pull that business has because of the allure that you can be more successful or make more money.

[837] How do you make sure that you are allocating your time against your true priorities like spending time with your children or like friendships or like your husband?

[838] Because we both know that we could just spend all of our time just doing business.

[839] Yeah.

[840] So how do you...

[841] I really think about is this a true emergency?

[842] Or is it a rush of adrenaline because being able to solve this or do something about this is making me feel relevant, important, special, needyed, bigger?

[843] And if it's for any of those reasons, it can wait.

[844] Your ego can wait.

[845] Or is this moment.

[846] Or is this moment, not as much about me, but about the people I love or their need to show me love.

[847] It's not easy because we're impatient, so we get caught up in that rush.

[848] And that's the thing that made us successful.

[849] That's the thing that drives us.

[850] That's the thing that without that we wouldn't be us.

[851] And yet, take a breath and just say, okay, wait a minute.

[852] Does this have to be done right now while I've got this other person, my child, my husband, my partner, my mother, my wife, fill in the blank.

[853] Or could it wait four minutes?

[854] Could it wait an hour?

[855] Could it wait till tonight?

[856] Could it wait till next week?

[857] Does it actually have to be answered?

[858] And trust me, if it is a TikTok or a social media thing or anything like that, I will tell you the answer now.

[859] You know it.

[860] It does not have to be answered right away.

[861] I don't care if you've got 2 million followers, 22 million, 120.

[862] It doesn't have to be answered right away unless literally it is an emergency.

[863] So just take a beat, take a minute and decide who needs this time the most.

[864] And sometimes it's not another person.

[865] It's you.

[866] Sometimes you need that minute the most.

[867] I need this minute for me now.

[868] So take a break and go and...

[869] have that time for yourself because you need that as well.

[870] I heard one of the things you said as advice to entrepreneurs is to first and foremost make sure you are one.

[871] Oh yeah, make sure you are.

[872] Listen, not everyone's an entrepreneur.

[873] It sounds like the cool thing to be, right?

[874] The sexy thing is to be an entrepreneur.

[875] Some people are not cut out to be entrepreneurs.

[876] To be an entrepreneur, it's not just that you are a risk taker.

[877] I hate hearing.

[878] It's just so tired, cliche, to say, you know, entrepreneurs are great risk takers.

[879] Entrepreneurs are not frightened.

[880] But of being scared.

[881] Let's say that.

[882] It's not that we're not scared.

[883] We are.

[884] But we'll deal with it.

[885] Courage, bravery is not the absence of fear.

[886] It's the presence of fear and still being able to function.

[887] So that you have to have.

[888] You also have to be decisive.

[889] You have to be able to make a decision.

[890] You have to have 70 % and make a call.

[891] Not everyone has that.

[892] And they don't have to.

[893] You can also have a bit of that and be an entrepreneur.

[894] So you think entrepreneur.

[895] You think within someone else's company, which is fine.

[896] That's like playing in Vegas without using your own chips.

[897] But it's not the rush of using your own chips.

[898] You know, the entrepreneur, we're using our own chips.

[899] And it's, once you get, it's easy to risk a few chips when you haven't got many on the table.

[900] When the chips start stacking up and you want to put everything on red 22, well, that's going to be a huge gamble.

[901] So it's that kind of energy.

[902] It's very different.

[903] So you've got entrepreneurs, you have entrepreneurs.

[904] You have entrepreneurs.

[905] You also have, I think two kinds of entrepreneurs you've got entrepreneurs that are serial entrepreneurs they flip it then they build it and flip it build it and flip it and they're very good at starting things but they can't follow they don't want to follow through and grow it and then you get a long long player like like me and raymond where you build one company or two and you grow it into an acquisition and that defines your entrepreneurship both are great either are fine you have to find what you will path is and you find that by finding what your purpose is and what's your fastest route to get there and for us it was entrepreneurship but it's not for everybody and neither should it be and that's the that's the magic find find your path i know you weren't intent on selling dermatica especially in the early years but you ultimately did yes two questions yeah question one is the week after you sell demologica how did you feel about it and the second thing is Why?

[906] Why did you choose to sell the company?

[907] Euphoric.

[908] Really?

[909] Yes.

[910] And I'll tell you why, because we knew exactly why we were selling.

[911] I don't know it ever feels that way if you were sell regretfully or because of some other reason.

[912] But the reason we sold was we felt strongly.

[913] We had taken Dermologica to as far as we could run it.

[914] We were not that there were other people that were so much more clever than us out there.

[915] think that in the early days, that there must be someone who knows all these answers, but then you realize pretty quickly people, no one has the answers.

[916] No one knows your business better than you do.

[917] So it wasn't that so much, that if we thought of it as a relay race, Raymond and I ran the first leg, but you're running so fast and so hard, your fullest capacity, you can't possibly run the second, third and fourth legs.

[918] So you have to pass that baton into a different kind of runner who the second leg is a different kind of runner, as is the third leg.

[919] And guess what?

[920] The fourth leg is the one that's got to take it home.

[921] So we felt very strongly about that.

[922] We had ruled, we didn't need, we didn't want to go to an IPO because we don't play well in the sandbox with other people.

[923] Could we have promoted someone from within and like stayed on as benevolent, you know, owners?

[924] No. I mean, we were aging out.

[925] We were definitely, you know, we realized our relevancy was going to wane.

[926] What we knew and what we knew how to do, life was changing, the world was changing.

[927] It was time.

[928] We knew you've got to know when to leave the party.

[929] I don't know about you, but I'm very good at knowing when to leave the party.

[930] And Raymond is excellent at knowing when I should leave the party too.

[931] And so he said, this is the time.

[932] The time is we've got to pass the baton and it's going to be an acquisition.

[933] And then in the book, Skin and the Game, I tell the story of the acquisition because the likely suspects of who would acquire us, people in the cosmetic industry, in prestige.

[934] Sure, they were at the table at the beginning.

[935] But at the end of the day, what guided us was a shared value system and the shared value system was Unilever.

[936] And we're still with them.

[937] And we appointed our first CEO when we sold.

[938] He's still our CEO.

[939] He's terrific.

[940] The team stayed on board.

[941] Ray and I have stayed involved.

[942] The company can continues going strength to strength.

[943] They're in double -digit growth.

[944] So we know we chose the right partner.

[945] So we felt euphoric about it.

[946] And now I feel gratified that we did the right thing.

[947] Promise you, I don't miss it a bit.

[948] And I'm incredibly proud of what we did.

[949] I guess that's when you know it's the right time.

[950] Yeah.

[951] You built wealth over many, many years from two different businesses.

[952] So this, even the acquisition of Unilever, I'm guessing, wasn't a life changing in terms of the fundamentals of your life moment.

[953] No. Right.

[954] So when you think about those two wonderful daughters you have and leaving them that, that money, God, yeah.

[955] You know what question I'm going to say?

[956] Ask me. Because you're, you know, much of your tenacity and your hunger has come from not having it.

[957] I remember hearing the stories of you like looking down the back of the sofas for coins when you're younger and all these things that you did.

[958] Are you scared that your kids won't have that same tenacity and hunger if you leave them your wealth?

[959] Yes, absolutely.

[960] And let me tell you something.

[961] They're 23 and 28.

[962] We better have done a a good enough job by now because you're not changing.

[963] I don't know that you can change someone at 23 or 20.

[964] You couldn't have changed me at 23 or 28.

[965] We raised them in the house that we bought way before the acquisition.

[966] We bought it 18 years before the acquisition.

[967] We live in a nice neighborhood.

[968] We don't live in a gated community.

[969] I don't live in a mansion.

[970] I never had living help or anything like that.

[971] I didn't want it.

[972] It's not who I am.

[973] It's not my value system.

[974] It's not Raymond's.

[975] We raised them in as normal a childhood as anyone has.

[976] I never had.

[977] I mean, who had a normal childhood?

[978] I think they have a very strong value system.

[979] They're aware that they are incredibly fortunate.

[980] They also know that a sense of purpose means how does it benefit other people and that wealth is a burden if you don't figure out how it can benefit others and give you some sense of gratitude at having it.

[981] So yes, of course we've done estate planning and of course we don't want to see our children not taking care of and they will also understand how they're going to take care of other people, people they know and also people that they don't know and will never meet because that's part of it.

[982] If you are given this kind of opportunity, you have a responsibility, whereas I like to call it, another equal and opposite opportunity to do something with it.

[983] And I think if you don't recognize that pretty quickly, it becomes a burden and can lead to incredible unhappiness.

[984] And I really hope that Ray and I have done the right things to make sure that doesn't happen.

[985] I feel pretty good so far.

[986] I have a high degree of confidence that you have by how you've delivered that because it seems to be very well thought through.

[987] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest writes a question for the next guest.

[988] And I don't get to see it until I open this book.

[989] So on a scale of 1 to 10 of self -love, how much do you accept yourself, have positive thoughts about yourself, have healed your wounds and fully love who you are authentically?

[990] One being you don't love yourself at all and 10 being you love yourself authentically.

[991] I love myself and faith to get there, but I honestly do with my flaws.

[992] It's not that I think I'm perfect.

[993] It's that I am always learning and I'm open to being better.

[994] Yes.

[995] It's a beautiful sense of sort of self -empathy to that.

[996] Yeah.

[997] I'm kind to myself.

[998] Well, thank you so much, Jane.

[999] Honestly, I learned so much just from researching your life and your book, the sort of human, vulnerable, honest nature, whilst also this, constant undertone of real actionable advice is what makes it so important.

[1000] I think that's the best use of words.

[1001] Thank you.

[1002] Thanks.