Norah Jones

[0] Welcome to armchair expert.

[1] You're nervous for my transition.

[2] Guess who our guest is?

[3] That was a big clue.

[4] It was a really clear clue.

[5] Nora Jones.

[6] My favorite.

[7] Monica's favorite.

[8] And definitely one of my favorites.

[9] I love her.

[10] so much.

[11] It was such a treat to have her here.

[12] I thought it was.

[13] And it was a Matrix.

[14] It was a rainy Sunday evening too, right?

[15] It was a gloomy Sunday evening.

[16] And we got into the attic and we got cozy and we were really nervous to ask her if she would sing.

[17] We were delighted that she said yes.

[18] And then she romanticized us.

[19] What happened, Monica?

[20] We fell under a deep spell.

[21] Oh, yeah.

[22] And we floated out of the attic.

[23] Oh, my God.

[24] And we really have Nora Jones to think.

[25] So we hope you enjoy this really relaxing, sensual ride with Nora Jones.

[26] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[27] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[28] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[29] Now, Nora, I said I wasn't going to say it, but I'm going to say it.

[30] You're so overwhelmingly beautiful in person.

[31] And it's really exciting.

[32] Well, that's always a nice thing to hear.

[33] So don't ever not say that, I think.

[34] Okay.

[35] You know what I'm finding?

[36] We have, as we have female guests on, as we, me too, get older, you're like more into it.

[37] Yeah, exactly.

[38] Like, we had Sarah Silverman on and I was saying it.

[39] And she's like, are you kidding at my age?

[40] Like, bring it the fuck on.

[41] It's true.

[42] Yeah.

[43] It's absolutely true.

[44] Yeah.

[45] And I guess I wonder, though, because I think for actors and comedians, being labeled as pretty nonstop, seems like.

[46] like it's getting in the way of what they want to be seen as, which is like talented as an actor or comedian.

[47] But I got to imagine that doesn't really extend to music, does it?

[48] I mean, it's never bad to be pretty.

[49] I think it might depend on the person and the kind of music they're making what they're trying to put out there.

[50] But I mean, I have this friend, one of my oldest friends, Dave, after he sees me play, he's like, sweetheart, you looked beautiful.

[51] You look hot up there.

[52] And I was like, oh, thank you.

[53] And I'm like, how did it sound?

[54] He's like, like, see, I know you want to hear how you looked first and then how you sounded second and you sounded great, but like, I don't know.

[55] It's just kind of funny.

[56] If I do stand up or I do a comedy movie, I could give a fuck if you think I'm funny.

[57] Just please tell me I'm mildly attracted.

[58] Tell me I look good.

[59] Yeah.

[60] I mean, it's so annoying to me. Sometimes I wish I could just be like a dude and, you know, just run out on stage and not overthink everything I'm wearing.

[61] It's so dumb.

[62] But you know what?

[63] It happens.

[64] You've been doing this for a long time now.

[65] And do you feel?

[66] feel that you still think about all that as much as you may be used to when you were younger?

[67] No, I don't really give a fuck as much anymore.

[68] Oh, okay.

[69] That's nice.

[70] But, like, I don't know.

[71] You still just want to wear something flattering, I guess.

[72] That's right.

[73] Yeah.

[74] You want to dress to your strengths minimally.

[75] Yeah.

[76] For me, it's always kind of like my hair just gets sweaty and frizzy.

[77] And so it's like, I wish I could just wear a hat.

[78] Right.

[79] Maybe I will do that.

[80] Well, let's find you a really cute hat.

[81] I think we should just start doing that.

[82] You're in L .A. Maybe you could use your last couple.

[83] hours here to chase down a really attractive.

[84] Find a hat look.

[85] Fodora or some.

[86] Well, you have a cute little thing on the back of your head right now.

[87] What is it?

[88] It's a handkerchief.

[89] I don't know what it is, basically.

[90] It's had adjacent.

[91] It's like a little, I don't know what it is.

[92] It's like a mix between a doily and a handkerchief.

[93] Yes.

[94] It's a, don't look at my hair.

[95] So you know what's really exciting for me is that, you know, Monica was really over the moon that you were coming.

[96] And then so I was reading about you, I had no idea you were.

[97] half Indian and Monica's a hundred percent Indian 100 percent not even a drop of anything else she's twice as good as you she's a hundred percent Indian where did you grow up I grew up in Georgia so okay so you're a southern Indian but yeah yeah squared because her family's southern Indian that's right and she's a southern Indian yeah so you're both southern okay yeah I'm a Texas half Indian but but you started in Brooklyn yeah I was born in New York yeah and um zero to eight Brooklyn?

[98] No, it's a three.

[99] Oh.

[100] And it actually wasn't Brooklyn.

[101] It was Manhattan.

[102] Oh, it was?

[103] Yeah.

[104] My mom's from Oklahoma.

[105] And so we moved back down to Texas just to be near her family when I was about three.

[106] Yeah.

[107] And so mom and dad, who weren't married, they just went their separate ways at three?

[108] No. I mean, they never lived together.

[109] Oh, they didn't?

[110] You know, my dad was a Ravi Shankar.

[111] He was a very famous musician.

[112] And they had a long relationship.

[113] But, you know, it was.

[114] was very unconventional.

[115] Uh -huh.

[116] Was he like a rock star of sorts?

[117] He played satar, yeah.

[118] I mean, he was kind of a unique person because he became this big, um, huge influencer of George Harrison and then became sort of associated with the Beatles and he played Woodstock.

[119] And he became associated with this whole cultural thing that was going on back then.

[120] Was he the gateway for the Beatles to go to India?

[121] Was he the ambassador?

[122] I'm a little, I'm a little foggy on the, like, exact details, but he and George became very close.

[123] Do you listen to Howard Stern by chance?

[124] Not a ton, but I have.

[125] He plays regularly this, I guess, a greeting from George.

[126] And it's him, it's him going with peace and love, peace and love, please stop writing me fan mail.

[127] He's addressing all of his fans.

[128] But it always starts with peace and love, peace and love.

[129] And then he basically tells people stop writing him fan.

[130] So every time you have really shitty news to give someone, And you just start by saying, with peace and love.

[131] With peace and love.

[132] And then say something really aggressive.

[133] Go brush your teeth.

[134] But how did, in your mom, Sue, she was a concert producer?

[135] Yeah, that's how they met.

[136] She produced a show in Dallas when she was living in college, after college or something.

[137] So, yeah, they were together a long time.

[138] But anyway, yeah, I grew up with my mom and I never lived with him.

[139] And I saw him growing up here and there.

[140] And then I didn't see him for a long time.

[141] So I'm really bad about projecting on here.

[142] But just reading your thing, I was like, oh, so my mom and dad got divorced at three.

[143] He was very busy with a lot of things for a long time.

[144] He died in 2012.

[145] Your dad died in 2012.

[146] I had a very kind of very, very sweet last three months with him.

[147] That was quite healing and bonding, and it was very cathartic.

[148] Are you talking as you or me right now?

[149] No, no, me. You're talking about you.

[150] Yeah.

[151] So my dad died in 2012.

[152] Okay, so similar.

[153] Yeah, and my dad wasn't really around.

[154] Okay.

[155] And then at the end of his life, it was crazy.

[156] cathartic and wonderful and beautiful and beautifuls.

[157] And then I happened to read that you were kind of estranged from dad and then you went to India.

[158] Well, yeah.

[159] I mean, when I was 18, we kind of got back together.

[160] Oh, you did?

[161] Yeah, so I didn't grow up around him at all.

[162] I mean, I saw him sporadically until I was nine and then I didn't see him at all until I was 18.

[163] We didn't really speak.

[164] So it was a long chunk.

[165] Yeah.

[166] And then I went to visit him when I was 18 and I met my half sister for the first time.

[167] Oh, wow.

[168] And she's two years younger than me. Mm -hmm.

[169] And so it was intense.

[170] And then since I was 18, we sort of became a family, worked on our relationship.

[171] And I'm lucky he lived to be 92 because I had all that time then to sort of get to know him a little better.

[172] And sort of we repaired our relationship, you know, as best we could.

[173] Okay.

[174] So that's where the parallel breaks down a ton.

[175] So your dad was 92.

[176] Mine was 62.

[177] So your dad must have been quite mature when he had you, right?

[178] Yes.

[179] I think it was 59.

[180] Oh, wow.

[181] Oh, what a virile man. And my sister's younger.

[182] I mean, we're talking about a rock star here.

[183] The secret.

[184] This is Dax's dream.

[185] Yeah.

[186] This is a sire.

[187] Nora Jones when I'm 59 years old.

[188] No, but, you know, he was like a, he was a classical Indian musician.

[189] So he really wasn't a, you know, a rock and roll kind of guy.

[190] He was a very serious, insanely brilliant musician.

[191] Uh -huh.

[192] So he was like a sweet little man when I met him.

[193] Again, when I was 18.

[194] But when you came into it at 18, did you have some resentment?

[195] Oh, gosh.

[196] I had tons of baggage.

[197] You should.

[198] Yeah.

[199] Yeah, you're entitled to that.

[200] Totally.

[201] Yeah, you should get a dad.

[202] Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny.

[203] As you get older, you get more perspective on things and I don't know.

[204] Well, and having kids, too, right?

[205] Totally.

[206] Yeah.

[207] Really put a lot of things into focus.

[208] Yes.

[209] Like, I wonder if you had this, like, forever, I thought I was kind of resentful that my dad had missed out on my childhood and then about a year into having my my first child I was like oh my goodness he was the victim it's a way it would be way worse for me to miss my child's life yeah than to have my dad miss my life I but it took me having kids to realize that yeah I know what you mean life is not black and white and it's complicated and it's interesting the details kind of do matter you know even even though they also kind of don't, you think it's, it should just be one thing, but I don't know.

[210] I feel like we're presented this option of to either write everything off is like, who gives a fuck?

[211] Yeah.

[212] Or to dwell on it and let it steer everything we do in life.

[213] And I think there's something in the middle, yeah.

[214] There's a big middle.

[215] Yeah, where it's like, it is important to recognize like, hmm, I deserve a dad.

[216] I was entitled to that.

[217] Also, it gave me probably these great characteristics.

[218] Yeah.

[219] Right.

[220] Yeah.

[221] You are who you are because of.

[222] how you were raised and then also towards the end you can go like oh yeah it's it's impossible to navigate life without some wreckage exactly yeah you're gonna get it one way or another yeah did mom remarry ever or no and me and my mom we were like felman louise you know it was just me and her and we're incredibly close and she's amazing and and intense but amazing was she a babe she was a babe oh my god tall too i'm shrimp you know my dad was short uh -huh short little indian man yeah that's what happens yeah i'm 5 -1 and she's 5 -10 green eyes she had like flaming huge red afro when she was in her you know she was gorgeous back in the day and she still is very striking so ravi must have a game like crazy because it's an unconventional pairing a white woman and an indian man in 1970 yeah much taller white woman so he and he was 59 and she was probably what in her 20s or 30s?

[223] Yeah, I think she was in her 20s.

[224] Yeah, so he's a stud, I mean, on some account.

[225] Yeah, man, I guess so.

[226] In that context.

[227] Yeah, exactly.

[228] But my mom's cool.

[229] You know, she's like, you know, Oklahoma, Texas Spitfire.

[230] She definitely does not take any crap.

[231] Yeah.

[232] Were there, did she have boyfriends when you were a kid?

[233] Not really.

[234] Really?

[235] No, I think, you know, I had an aunt who had a lot of, husbands and you know she saw a lot of not great situations i think she just focused and she's also so busy working and raising me you know working hard did she continue to work in music in texas no she became a script supervisor oh really yeah she worked in commercials a lot in Dallas and then she became a real estate agent and she went back to school and became a nurse so oh wow she's a self -starter and pretty confident it sounds like script supervisors for people who don't know are people on a movie set who they're making sure both all the words are being said correctly but then even more importantly did the person use their left hand to pick up that mug so when you shoot another it's so there is just generally speaking a script supervisor personality type that I found you're a very meticulous person in was she a meticulous like was everything tidy and i mean it wasn't like we were yeah she was tidy but not not necessarily like she wasn't like marie condo you know.

[236] Okay.

[237] But yeah, I guess.

[238] I'm so delighted that everyone in the world knows Marie Kondo's name.

[239] It's just a, it's a verb now.

[240] I'm going to go Marie Kondo to shit out of my closet, you know.

[241] Yeah, for sure.

[242] Speaking of small, she's two inches tall.

[243] I saw her in real life.

[244] Really?

[245] She makes me look like a giant person and it's shocking.

[246] It's so wonderful.

[247] She's a powerful little two inch tall person.

[248] She's powerful.

[249] It is.

[250] So did you, you grew up in a Dallas suburb?

[251] I did.

[252] In Great Vine, Texas.

[253] It's where the airport is.

[254] Oh, okay.

[255] Yeah.

[256] It was tiny, though.

[257] When I was growing up, there was a McDonald's and a little tiny movie theater and nothing else.

[258] And now it's just like this huge, huge, huge place.

[259] Uh -huh.

[260] So you don't, to me, read immediately like Indian.

[261] I think you would read Italian or something.

[262] Did you find that you stuck out among the southern white folks down there?

[263] Well, everybody always thought I was Mexican.

[264] Because, you know, Texas, a lot of Mexicans and all my friends, it was kind of a mix.

[265] I mean, it wasn't a super white suburb.

[266] It was pretty mixed.

[267] Well, I suppose you're in between Dallas and Fort Worth in that town.

[268] I mean, it was kind of white, but I mean, there were other people of color for sure.

[269] So you didn't feel excluded or?

[270] I didn't feel excluded.

[271] I felt a little like, I mean, nobody ever knew what I was.

[272] And they always would say things like, what are you?

[273] You know, and it's always kind of a funny thing, oh, well, I'm a human.

[274] Like, you kind of think of witty answers and then, okay, I know what you're asking.

[275] I'm half Indian, I'm half white, you know.

[276] Oh, sure.

[277] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[278] I thought you actually were meaning like, what are you?

[279] Like, are you into art?

[280] Oh, God, are you a snowboarder?

[281] No, but, okay, your ethnicity they were fishing for.

[282] Yeah, like growing up, it was always kind of funny.

[283] Yeah, and it's funny because Monica and I have debated this on here, which is, of course, that's annoying.

[284] And Monica, go ahead.

[285] It just gets exhausting.

[286] It's just because you recognize immediately what they want from you.

[287] But it's like, why?

[288] And specifically they were asking, Monica, where are you from?

[289] Where are you from?

[290] Where are you from?

[291] And I'm from Georgia.

[292] So I'll say from Duluth.

[293] And they're like, oh, no, but where are you from?

[294] Exactly.

[295] Like, you can get really agro about it.

[296] But I went through that phase.

[297] And then I realized, like, it's just somebody being curious about you.

[298] And it's really not a mean question.

[299] Well, it can be annoying, but it's.

[300] It's fine.

[301] I mean, I've had people, I'm curious, their ethnicity, and I'm like, I don't want to ask.

[302] Quite often it's because it's something uniquely attractive.

[303] Yeah, it's because you think they're interesting looking and it's not a mean thing.

[304] It is so, it says so much about where you're coming from personally in your own confidence at that moment.

[305] Because I was saying to Monica, like, I would die for someone to be interested enough in me to be curious what brand of honky I am.

[306] Yeah, does anybody ask me that question?

[307] No, I've never ever been asked.

[308] Exactly.

[309] You know.

[310] Yeah, so maybe we're special.

[311] That's true.

[312] Yeah.

[313] That's a great positive way.

[314] So if you're white, that's boring enough.

[315] You don't need to.

[316] No one cares.

[317] There's nothing really that cool about it.

[318] Were you pushed into singing or is it something that, or music, I should say in general, were you led to it?

[319] I mean, your mother must have thought, well, her dad is this incredible musician and.

[320] I think I was so interested in it from such an early age.

[321] She just kind of encouraged it.

[322] We went to like a Methodist church, you know.

[323] Uh -huh.

[324] And I sang in the church choir.

[325] since I was four.

[326] Mm -hmm.

[327] So, and I got all the solos because I guess I was good.

[328] You guess.

[329] I mean, there's only so much faux humility I'll accept when you sold 50 million albums.

[330] Okay, that was awesome.

[331] But I was also kind of a rule dork.

[332] Like, I would follow the instructions.

[333] Like, she was like, now you want to enunciate and I like overdid it, you know?

[334] Yeah.

[335] So it was kind of a kiss ass, I guess.

[336] But I had good pitch and she encouraged me and she gave me solos.

[337] And it just kind of developed.

[338] from there.

[339] Yeah.

[340] My wife similarly discovered at a very young age and then started learning, you know, all the technical aspects of it, which still astounds me that she can read music and do all those things.

[341] Yeah.

[342] And was, were there any elements of it that was challenging or did you just, was it fish to water?

[343] I mean, it was natural for me. But also, my mom got a piano when it was about seven finally because I wanted to take piano lessons.

[344] Oh my God, you wanted to.

[345] We're like forcing for kids to.

[346] Please, mommy.

[347] Well, how old are they?

[348] Five and four.

[349] Yeah, I guess I was a little older, so I was like, I want this.

[350] And then she got the piano.

[351] I started taking lessons, and I immediately wanted to quit.

[352] Oh.

[353] Because I didn't want to practice.

[354] It was annoying.

[355] It was like school all of a sudden, and I didn't want to do it.

[356] I said, I'm done.

[357] And she did something that I still think is really smart.

[358] But she said, look, you made me get a piano.

[359] You wanted lessons.

[360] You're going to take for five years.

[361] And then you can quit.

[362] I don't care.

[363] That's fine.

[364] But you have to take for five years.

[365] And then if you ever want to go back to it, you can.

[366] And you'll have a little bit of a foundation.

[367] I thought that was pretty smart.

[368] In hindsight, it worked for me, obviously.

[369] Yes, although you were eight, maybe.

[370] I was seven.

[371] Or six or seven.

[372] Even worse.

[373] So what she was pitching you was your whole life over again.

[374] Like, percentage -wise, that was, she must have figured out, like, if I say six more years, she'll go fuck you.

[375] I don't think I had a choice.

[376] My mom was pretty tall and scary.

[377] But I quit immediately after five years.

[378] Oh, you did?

[379] But, I mean, I enjoyed it.

[380] And I took theory lessons along with a private lesson every week.

[381] They had theory lessons every week, which was crazy, the academic of music and reading music.

[382] Well, it's math, right?

[383] It's kind of like all the math stuff, yeah.

[384] Yeah.

[385] And did you ever watch American Idol when it was popular?

[386] Here and there.

[387] I'm going to just brag about my wife.

[388] So they would be singing, and my wife would, like, she'd start using words I'd never heard.

[389] Oh, yeah.

[390] And in my mind, I'm kind of like, she's a little full of shit.

[391] I mean, it's coming out of a TV speaker.

[392] None of this can be totally right.

[393] And by God, every fucking time I'd go through the judges, they wouldn't say anything.

[394] And they get to Harry Connick, it would be verbatim.

[395] He would say the same thing.

[396] Yes, because they both have that, like, deep, deep technical knowledge.

[397] And she would have to change her pants after they agreed on the notes.

[398] Oh, my God.

[399] That's so funny.

[400] Yeah, to her, that's like as close as she'd ever get to him.

[401] That's so funny.

[402] Because they took her off the market.

[403] Spoiler alert.

[404] Yeah, so I was going to ask, were you consuming a lot of music right out of the gates?

[405] Always, yeah.

[406] Always.

[407] Well, my mom had good taste, too.

[408] Like, she would always play Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin Records.

[409] I was into oldies at first, like 50s music.

[410] And then I got into pop radio probably around like 1990.

[411] Oh, Jennifer, that's quite, okay.

[412] So you were like, what, sixth grade is 19?

[413] Yeah, maybe six.

[414] I'm four years older than you would believe.

[415] What's that?

[416] Like Tiffany?

[417] No, I wasn't into that.

[418] I was into like Belbiv DeVoe.

[419] Oh, sure.

[420] B .B. B .B .D. B B B B B B BD.

[421] Yeah.

[422] ABC.

[423] Yes, ABC.

[424] Um, and then I got really into like Nirvana and the Violent Fems and that kind of stuff.

[425] And then I got really into jazz.

[426] That was kind of when I stopped playing piano.

[427] Then I got it really into jazz.

[428] And then I just kind of disappeared from pop music.

[429] And also at that time in the 90s, there was like this huge resurgence of young jazz musicians who were amazing.

[430] Uh -huh.

[431] You liked Billy Holiday?

[432] Yeah, the real, like, old, real stuff.

[433] And sad stuff?

[434] Real sad stuff.

[435] I've always been really into sad, quiet, obviously, balladry.

[436] I used to make, like, sad mistakes to cry to, you know?

[437] Yeah.

[438] Because it felt good, not because I was a depressed, like, sad person, but I just loved it.

[439] Right.

[440] Being emotional like that felt good.

[441] It's great.

[442] Yeah.

[443] My son recently, he's almost five, he's like, Mommy, crying feels really good sometimes.

[444] That's sweet, you know I hope you beat that out of him No boy should cry Oh I'm sweet though So do you think you were Not very emotional in your life And that was an outlet Or you just were in general And that was an extra I know I was plenty emotional You were I was way more emotional than I am now Yeah Yeah What kind of guys were you Attracted to in high school Like did you have a type?

[445] I was pretty boy crazy Oh good for you That's what I like to hear I think you know When you grow up just with your mom and you kind of have that sort of need.

[446] A longing.

[447] Yeah.

[448] And I was always into boys even since I was little.

[449] I always had like a crush on somebody.

[450] Uh -huh.

[451] In high school, I had crushes on a lot of dudes.

[452] But I also, I was in like marching band in junior high.

[453] Well, that's a real dude lure.

[454] Uh -huh.

[455] What were you playing in marching band?

[456] Alto Sax.

[457] Oh, no shit.

[458] Yeah.

[459] Oh, my goodness.

[460] And that was in grapevine.

[461] No, I wasn't a savant, but in great vine.

[462] Yeah, because football was king there.

[463] The marching band was huge.

[464] Right.

[465] And you had no interest in cheer.

[466] Actually, I tried to be a cheerleader in sixth grade and my mom said no. Because it wasn't feminist enough or?

[467] Yeah, maybe.

[468] It feels somehow inherently not feminist.

[469] Yeah, she didn't want me to be a cheerleader.

[470] But I think it has a lot to do with like, it was expensive.

[471] You had to buy a lot of clothes and go to camp and like all this stuff.

[472] Yeah.

[473] I don't know.

[474] We should call her and ask her why she didn't.

[475] I really need her hair because there's a few questions so far that I need anything.

[476] Because I'm dying to know what she, if she did.

[477] It wasn't bringing dudes around.

[478] Like, how did she?

[479] That's a whole other thing.

[480] How she could have possibly shut down that aspect of her life.

[481] I think, I mean, you have kids.

[482] Imagine how.

[483] I would be fucking.

[484] If I were a single dad, I would find time to fuck.

[485] I promise you, I would work it out.

[486] She's going to listen to this and give me so much shit.

[487] Did she still listen to everything?

[488] Oh, yeah.

[489] See, I'm really grateful.

[490] My mom has gotten bored of me finally.

[491] Now things just go right by.

[492] And that, to me, feels healthy.

[493] Yeah, I think it's healthier to not, you know, read into stuff.

[494] that's not completely like hey you know me just call me right but but i also get it especially now that i have kids like if i could watch my little girls do that something they're great at i'll never not want to watch that it's sweet yeah it is yeah yeah um so that that's we're gonna just put it we're gonna earmark that that that's a mystery to me how mom was meeting her carnal needs but that's maybe that would be an update i never thought about that because my mom was a single mom too but she was you bet your ass she was meeting those carnal needs.

[495] Maybe, I mean, maybe my mom had a secret nightlife that I don't know about.

[496] You bet your ass she did.

[497] I think she did.

[498] You just really hope.

[499] It's interesting because she had a child with someone who she must have immediately recognized was not going to be totally available.

[500] I mean, if he was.

[501] Dude, you're getting deep, man. I'm just saying there's a lot there.

[502] I want to have her on next.

[503] Maybe we should go to a therapy session.

[504] That's what this is.

[505] That's really what this show is.

[506] Pretty much with this.

[507] Super curious why I do all the things I do.

[508] That's my biggest interest.

[509] It's like not out of like any kind of shaming or anything.

[510] Just like I'm most curious about why we do the things we do.

[511] No, I'm into it.

[512] I'm into it.

[513] Especially when things like there's a hiccup.

[514] Like a woman going, you know, 18 years without a boyfriend, that to me is like, oh, I need to know about that.

[515] Well, I don't know that that means she never had any guys around.

[516] I just mean there was never like a boyfriend.

[517] There were never dudes around.

[518] You want to hear something kinky.

[519] My mom would go on these fucking.

[520] solo vacations to Jamaica.

[521] Oh, wow.

[522] She'd come back with her hair and cornrows and stuff, and I was like, what happened to her down there in Jamaica?

[523] She'd have a deep -ass tan and cornrows, and she just looked happy as hell.

[524] Things happened down there.

[525] Things happened.

[526] Good for her.

[527] I'm so glad we didn't suck every last bit of joy out of her life.

[528] That's good.

[529] So you were a boy crazy.

[530] And did you have any long -term boyfriends in high school?

[531] My first boyfriend was my senior year.

[532] And he was a drummer.

[533] So pretty much once I ended up moving from Great Find to Dallas in 10th grade and I went to this arts high school.

[534] Oh, yes.

[535] Which changed my life.

[536] I mean, it was completely different than marching band and football.

[537] Yeah.

[538] And did you feel like you were like home?

[539] Like, oh, this is where I belong.

[540] Yeah, I didn't feel like the weird kick is if we were all weird kids, every single one of us.

[541] And the best way, of course.

[542] Just a bunch of artists.

[543] Now, I saw that you had attended Interlock in?

[544] Yeah, I went for summer camp twice.

[545] Yeah, so I'm from Michigan.

[546] okay and it's like an art camp yeah now you know what's funny is I've met in Hollywood probably two dozen people that went to interlock him I've never met anyone in Michigan who went to interlock him but only artists yeah yeah I don't know I'm sure they clearly exist but how does one even find inner lock and down in Dallas well my mom whenever I quit piano and then I got into jazz she found through my saxophone teacher marching band found this jazz piano teacher in Dallas named julie bomb I mean, she was, she had, like, hippie hair, and she was a jazz pianist, and she was great.

[547] And I started taking lessons from her, and she went to interlock it.

[548] And so she hooked me up with a scholarship and got me up there.

[549] Did you like it up there?

[550] And it was probably the best time I've ever had in my whole life.

[551] Oh, I'm so happy to hear that.

[552] And, you know, you'd walk around, and you would hear people practicing in these little practice huts.

[553] I mean, you're in nature, but you're in music, and people dancing around and acting around.

[554] And I took an art class and the artists were really cool and I took a dance class and the dance teacher was amazing.

[555] I mean, it was so fun.

[556] You had to have fallen in love every trip there.

[557] Oh, yeah.

[558] There were a few drummers that I fell in love it.

[559] Oh, my guy.

[560] I don't know if I should tell you this an hour later, but I'm a drummer.

[561] There's a kit below us right now in the garage.

[562] I'd have to see you play and I'd have to really be into it.

[563] I'm a 2 .5.

[564] Occasionally I find a groove.

[565] I'm by myself and I will hit a four or five, but I can't understand.

[566] demand to hit a four or five.

[567] Then, no, I won't be into it.

[568] I will fucking practice.

[569] Yeah.

[570] What if Monica, you came, you stopped by next week, and I had an actual instructor here.

[571] I'm already embarrassed for you to get so much.

[572] That's the goal is to get your cheeks red for me. Yeah, I just imagine being at the summer camp.

[573] I don't know.

[574] It just seems like a really romantic place.

[575] It's so romantic.

[576] I was in love with the saxophone player the first year, I think, and then this girl I was friends with, started dating in.

[577] So jealous.

[578] Whatever.

[579] And then I got into this bass player.

[580] Anyway, yeah, I mean, I've always been attracted to people who are into something.

[581] I'm passionate about whatever they're doing.

[582] Right.

[583] And hopefully good at it, you know.

[584] Yeah, it's really It's always attractive.

[585] It's hot to watch people be great at something.

[586] Yeah.

[587] In fact, it's why I'm always nervous for people who marry musicians.

[588] Because I think you go see them on stage and you're watching the thing, their superpower.

[589] Yeah.

[590] And you feel this way and then offstage then they have to brush their teeth and take a dump in the morning like it just all starts to unravel they have issues yes have you ever had someone watch you perform and then approach you and express like an attraction to you and then have this fear of like oh i'm not going to be able to deliver on this thing you just fell in love with no i've never had that thought good for you you know you deliver good for you That's a funny thought.

[591] It makes a lot of sense.

[592] I have to imagine there's guys like, I don't know, fucking David Lee Roth in the 70s up there in spandex, jumping around breaking balloons with karate kicks.

[593] You can see his moose knuckle and stuff.

[594] And then, who knows, maybe the guy's boring as hell.

[595] And I could imagine having some anxiety that, like, you're a different person than the one you just saw on.

[596] No, I mean, I'm also, like, I'm not like a David Lee Roth type of performer.

[597] So, you know, I mean, I don't really.

[598] Are you sure?

[599] Pretty sure.

[600] You know, if I was that kind of an intense, you know, performer, maybe I would feel that way.

[601] But right.

[602] I've also been in a lot of long -term relationships.

[603] I haven't had a lot of single meeting dudes after shows and hooking up necessarily.

[604] Do you regret that at all?

[605] No, not really.

[606] You were with a dude for seven years, right?

[607] From 2000 to 2007.

[608] Oh, yeah.

[609] My old bass player.

[610] Yeah.

[611] Right.

[612] So I was with a gal for nine years.

[613] And it was the, like, pours a motherfucker for 10 years in a one.

[614] on bed and apartment, then got on television and movies and made money.

[615] And when we broke up, I had this bizarre fear of, like, wow, the next person who meets me is going to meet the successful me. And I don't know if I like that.

[616] You won't know why they like you maybe.

[617] And also, they won't know, like, the real you or something.

[618] Yeah.

[619] I had, I had like this deep fear of it.

[620] And I remember, I very infrequently cry.

[621] I would like to do it more.

[622] But I was watching Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

[623] The best.

[624] What a movie.

[625] The best melancholy, wallowing feeling in the world.

[626] Yes.

[627] And when they're falling in love and they're broke and all they have is a flashlight and a sheet.

[628] And then they go out in the snow and make angels.

[629] I was watching it and I started bawling.

[630] So I was like, that's how you fall in love.

[631] That's how you know if you have something.

[632] It's true.

[633] Like you're just in a shithole rat trap apartment and you find love.

[634] That's love.

[635] It's sweet.

[636] But, you know, it still happens.

[637] You know how it is now.

[638] You break it down and you get to know person well enough.

[639] And it all becomes transparent, you know, in the end.

[640] Yeah.

[641] It might take a while.

[642] Yes.

[643] And I would argue Kristen knows me. Exactly.

[644] Every bit as well as Bree ever knew me, even though she didn't live with me in the shithole apartment when I was a drug addict.

[645] So, but I did have that fear.

[646] Yeah, I know what you mean.

[647] Yeah.

[648] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[649] We've all been there.

[650] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[651] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[652] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[653] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[654] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[655] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[656] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[657] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[658] What's up, guys?

[659] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, It's too good.

[660] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[661] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[662] And I don't mean just friends.

[663] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[664] The list goes on.

[665] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[666] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[667] Okay, so you go to a University of North Texas and you major in jazz.

[668] Yeah, jazz piano.

[669] And at any moment, because I'm going to ask you about this at a couple, different points in your career.

[670] But at any moment, were you following what your heart wanted?

[671] Or did it ever cross your mind like, hmm, is this a skill set I should be picking up if I want to eventually monetize this and be able to make a living?

[672] No, because when I went to that arts high school in 10th grade, I started, I was a musician from then on.

[673] And I just was.

[674] And everybody at that school kind of just was what they were.

[675] And I started doing gigs in 11th grade.

[676] And when I went to college, I got this weekly gig at a restaurant.

[677] I just stumbled to upon it and I got paid enough to make my rent every weekend.

[678] How liberating is that?

[679] I mean, it was great.

[680] It was also a cheap rent, but.

[681] Yeah.

[682] And it was, I mean, it was pretty cush living in Dallas.

[683] And the fact that I was a young woman, probably, and I sang.

[684] It was actually just a piano gig, but they let me sing because I said, can I sing a few songs in the set each time?

[685] Like, I would sing like every fifth song, so I wouldn't sing every song.

[686] And it was the best practice ever.

[687] and it's the reason I, it's the way I learn how to sing and play piano, because it's kind of like coordination issues, you know.

[688] Just doing it at the same time.

[689] That's kind of how I, like, got it together.

[690] And are you a romantic by nature?

[691] Did you have, like, a vision for your life as a jazz singer?

[692] I knew that that's what I loved, and I kind of, that's just what I did.

[693] I guess what I'm really asking is, like, did you have a romantic notion of what it would be like to be Billy Holiday?

[694] And did you think that your life needed to be on, some kind of dark trajectory to be the artist you wanted to be.

[695] I mean, that's interesting you asked about her.

[696] Because in high school, they would do like a black history program every February.

[697] And one year, I audition and they picked me to sing and be Billy Holiday.

[698] And at that time, I loved Billy Holiday, but I didn't really know that much about her.

[699] And I thought I would sing, you know, I don't know, one of my favorite songs she sang, but that wasn't the deal.

[700] The deal was you singing Strange Fruit.

[701] And so that's what I did in the program.

[702] and my teacher, Nedra James, she was great.

[703] She taught me a lot about Billy Holiday.

[704] She was like, we're going to put track marks in your arm.

[705] I'm like, holy shit, what the, I didn't know all this.

[706] I just didn't know that much about her life.

[707] So I didn't really understand the deep sadness of where all that came from.

[708] Uh -huh.

[709] I was kind of surface on that stuff.

[710] Okay.

[711] So I don't think I felt that way.

[712] But you weren't ever nervous that you were going to need some kind of pathos to be the engine that was going to drive this kind of?

[713] Oh, like, mess myself up.

[714] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[715] I didn't.

[716] How healthy of you.

[717] I know, right?

[718] But, I mean, I had plenty of baggage, I guess.

[719] Like, I read Bukowski and I want to be around and it's like, I need to live in a fucking trash can.

[720] Oh, that's interesting.

[721] I very much succame to that.

[722] Yeah.

[723] I don't think you can do past tense of succumb.

[724] But at any rate, succumb.

[725] I think you just did.

[726] I don't know, succumbed?

[727] That sounds even worse.

[728] You just done it.

[729] So did you graduate from University of?

[730] No. I did two years and then I realized.

[731] I didn't want to be a music teacher, and I didn't want to take all the classical classes that it would have taken to finish and get my degree and all the academics.

[732] So I moved to New York.

[733] To me, that was pretty awesome.

[734] Yeah.

[735] Moving to New York, I was 20.

[736] I did actually know Jesse Harris.

[737] Oh, right, because you met him at the university.

[738] I met him at the university.

[739] He came down with some musicians, and we just became friends, and we kept in touch.

[740] And so when I moved to New York, he was kind of like my guru.

[741] Your mentor?

[742] Took me around and took me in the living room.

[743] He's a songwriter, so I met all these songwriters.

[744] I got into songwriting.

[745] I started playing guitar, and I kind of just got into different stuff.

[746] And then you found employment pretty fast, yeah?

[747] Yeah, again, I think the whole, like, piano bar, like singing and playing piano in restaurants was probably the best thing for me to make any money.

[748] But, boy, it was a pay cut from that Texas, that Cush gig in Texas.

[749] Oh, it was.

[750] Yeah, because New York is New York, and nobody.

[751] They don't give a fuck.

[752] There's a musician every fourth person.

[753] Yeah, they don't need you.

[754] Yeah, yeah, yeah, you need them.

[755] Yeah, I played in some jazz clubs, and I played in a lot of restaurants, and then I played at the living room, and I realized I don't want to play in these restaurants anymore.

[756] Because they're not, why?

[757] Because they're not actually paying attention.

[758] No, and it was not good enough money.

[759] Right.

[760] And then food wasn't that good, you know.

[761] They give you that staff meal.

[762] Yeah, they give you the staff meal.

[763] And I decided I wanted to wait tables to make money instead of make music to make money, you know.

[764] know.

[765] Yeah.

[766] I wanted to make music to make music.

[767] Yeah.

[768] And so I started playing at the living room and doing music I wanted to do in writing songs and playing for tips and having a ball.

[769] Did you, did you immediately make friends and did you have a little social network or was there any loneliness?

[770] I came for the summer and the intention was to come back to Texas and go to school, but I didn't and my mom was really pissed.

[771] Yeah.

[772] She was so mad.

[773] But, you know, so about, so I did the summer and then about November, I started to get really depressed.

[774] I was just like eating my feelings and really sad.

[775] There's a lot of good options there to eat your feelings.

[776] Exactly.

[777] And so I called my mom and I was really sad.

[778] I think I'm going to, I'm going to come back over Thanksgiving and I'm just going to get a job.

[779] And then in January, I'll go back to school.

[780] I was crying and I was so sad.

[781] And my mom was like, uh, why don't you just give it a year?

[782] Why don't you give it five years?

[783] She said, give it one year and then you come back.

[784] Good for her.

[785] Just give it one year.

[786] And she was wanting me back so bad.

[787] So that was also kind of cool.

[788] Oh, I like her a lot for that.

[789] Yeah, she's cool.

[790] She's wise.

[791] Yeah.

[792] But you have to wonder how many people have been in that same situation.

[793] And they went back home.

[794] I mean, everybody who moved to New York after that, I remember, I was like, oh, well, you'll get depressed in your first year.

[795] But don't worry.

[796] It'll be cool.

[797] My mom's set.

[798] Uh -huh.

[799] But, yeah.

[800] It's a big, lonely city in a way.

[801] But I was playing at the living room with Jesse and we were doing stuff.

[802] But I was also still doing a couple restaurant gigs here and there.

[803] And this friend of the bass players, Lee's, his wife worked at EMI.

[804] And she saw me. And she set up a meeting for me with Bruce Lundval at Blue Note Records because she saw me do a jazz gig, not the living room gig, which was more songwritory.

[805] Right.

[806] And I was really excited.

[807] Yeah.

[808] And now, okay, so this is the second time I'll ask you this.

[809] Was there any pressure for you to completely jettison?

[810] Like, I would just imagine meeting you, and this is what, 2001 or something?

[811] Yeah.

[812] So you're 22?

[813] I was 21 because I met her on my 21st birthday gig.

[814] Ah.

[815] Which I was playing at the time with my boyfriend, the bass player, and my ex -boyfriend from college, the drummer.

[816] Really weird.

[817] Oh, this is great.

[818] Anyway, I thought you might appreciate that.

[819] I do, immensely.

[820] But it was all good.

[821] But, yeah, so I was 21.

[822] Yeah.

[823] And so was there any pressure at that point to, like, steer you into pop?

[824] I mean, Bruce Lenoval was the head of blue notes, so definitely not.

[825] Not from him.

[826] In fact, my demo to him included one original Jesse Harris song, which was not jazz, and then just two standards.

[827] And he asked me, he's like, do you want to be a jazz singer or this other thing, like a pop singer?

[828] I was like, oh, no, a jazz singer, because I was sitting there in his office.

[829] Yeah.

[830] And I also wasn't sure yet.

[831] So he did, he was a smart guy and he ended up being such a mentor and a friend.

[832] Signed me to a demo deal.

[833] And he gave me six grand to go back in the.

[834] the studio and sort of find myself a little.

[835] Uh -huh.

[836] And that was really cool because we didn't get with the producer or anything.

[837] We just went in with this band I had with Jesse and Lee and we recorded six songs.

[838] And one of them was the version of Don't Know Why that ended up being on the album.

[839] No kidding.

[840] We went and he finally decided this isn't really jazz, but I think it's cool.

[841] I'm going to sign it because I think he was on the fence because it wasn't straight -up jazz.

[842] He was like a tweener, right?

[843] There was, what genre were you?

[844] I don't know.

[845] It was kind of singer -songwriter.

[846] But that's now something we say a lot now, but we didn't say singer's songwriter a lot in 2000, right?

[847] Yeah, I don't know.

[848] It was kind of like in between for sure.

[849] And so in a way, like the fact that it wasn't straight up jazz was a hindrance with him, I think.

[850] But he came around to it.

[851] And you then put out your Come Away With Me album in 2002.

[852] And what kind of expectations did you have?

[853] You must have loved the.

[854] album.

[855] I did, but we kind of had to, we remade it.

[856] We went in with a great producer, but it just wasn't the demo -e stuff was better somehow.

[857] And we ended up kind of remaking it with a Reef Martin and using a lot of the demo -y stuff.

[858] It was pretty stripped down.

[859] I did love it.

[860] And I was excited about it.

[861] And I thought, well, I think this will be a good start, you know?

[862] Yeah.

[863] And everyone was consistently shocked by how well it did the first week we sold 10 ,000 copies and then by the end of the whole cycle and the craziness it was was crazy yeah so 10 million copies the first year I don't know I do I'll tell you I'll brag for you I know you don't want to brag but I'll brag but not it it um yeah it sells 10 million and then it also gets eight Grammy nominations I just please walk me through you get six grand for a demo and then there's shortly thereafter like what is can you even articulate what that experience is like i mean you're just you're working like a dog because they're the the record label is cashing in on all of it and throwing more radio promotion because it's doing well so you have to do i mean they definitely worked the record it's not like it was a drop and everybody picked it up they worked it and then the more it got picked up the more they worked you you know what i mean yeah so it was busy you worked a lot and um it was awards so it definitely was like a as far as an album build it was like a full year of just escalation more good news more good news more good news yeah it was crazy but it wasn't the happiest time in my life i would imagine it you're right because it was just a lot of work and it was intense and had a lot of family issues surrounding it and you know and were you having any moments where you're like ooh i'm i'm hopping on a highway that i don't know i'll be able to get off like were you having any kind of like fears of your privacy or anonymity going away yeah a little bit i mean i was so young though i mean i was 22 23 i was very just sort of shell shocked and did you think oh i'm this will continue for life or were you like oh this is a complete fluke i don't know why this happened like what i definitely felt like i felt like what we did was special and i was proud of it and i loved it so i knew that but I definitely felt it like it was a complete fluke that it sold so much yeah yeah I guess um you know uh I've had a lot of different actors and stuff who will have a huge hit they have I have at times felt fraudulent like yeah oh I had that yeah I had that at the grammies because I mean it was like Bruce Springsteen and it was a lot of heavy people and and then a lot of pop stars too and I'm like what do I wear this dress black dress I mean you know You know, I felt very accidental.

[864] Uh -huh.

[865] But I didn't feel inadequate musically, which was good.

[866] Yeah.

[867] I felt confident, you know, maybe it wasn't everybody's taste or maybe it was different, but, like, I felt confident in that way.

[868] But, yeah, every other aspect of it, I felt very, like, an accidental tourist.

[869] Like, I said this thing, and I still felt, I felt like I went to the birthday party and I ate all the cake.

[870] Uh -huh.

[871] And I was, like, that weird, awkward guest that ate all the cake.

[872] And were you, I have to imagine, though, you were embraced by everybody, were you?

[873] Everybody was so kind, yeah.

[874] It was, it's not, it wasn't like polarizing music either.

[875] It's not like, you know, you could have had some album that was for whatever reason kind of polarizing or triggered people or they were like, oh, this person thinks they're hot shit.

[876] It's not like you were crushing with dance moves and, you know, crazy costumes.

[877] So I imagine those people maybe have a rougher ride.

[878] Well, it was very calming music, and, you know, it was not that long after 9 -11.

[879] I think people needed it in a way.

[880] But, you know, there's always a backlash when there's some success.

[881] And, you know, before you learn to not read the internet, it can be intense.

[882] When you're young, it's intense.

[883] You got to learn it, though, right?

[884] You got to learn it.

[885] And there's a lot of noise, so you just don't want to turn it on.

[886] Yeah, I stupidly had a Google alert for my name when I first got on TV.

[887] Exactly.

[888] I wanted to know everything that was being said about me. I was so excited people were saying things about me. And then really quickly, I was like, I feel miserable every time I look at.

[889] It's so horrible.

[890] So I learned how to shut that off very early on.

[891] You did.

[892] Before social media got big even, you know, so because this was like 2002, I stopped, I stopped looking at that stuff.

[893] Yeah.

[894] All you had then was a Google alert, right?

[895] Yeah, and there was still stuff, but it's nothing like it is now.

[896] I don't even think MySpace was out.

[897] yet.

[898] Yeah, or it wasn't huge yet.

[899] Right.

[900] So when you get that, now I'm going to get really crass by some people's standard, but I'm obsessed with money.

[901] When you started getting that money, when it started coming in, were you like, what the fuck?

[902] Kind of.

[903] Yeah.

[904] Was it the most exciting thing to have like been struggling and singing for people eating fucking T -bones and baked Alaska and not paying attention to I was so lucky that I got in before like the music business stopped having money right I mean like you were probably one of the last yeah I was like one of the last people to sell physical you know that bulk in bulk so it was super lucky were you were you scared it went last door or did you go out and buy a fucking sweet apartment or anything I bought a sweet apartment oh good for you and you know it I didn't know that it would last, I was definitely not, not expecting it to last.

[905] But I also, I'm not super extravagant.

[906] I didn't like go blow at all, you know.

[907] Yeah.

[908] And what, um, it must have been, again, in my own experience, I found it to be a stressor for me to have gotten recognized while in a relationship.

[909] I didn't feel like that was the easiest thing for our relationship.

[910] What do you mean?

[911] Oh, oh, to be, to be the famous one in a relationship.

[912] Yes.

[913] Yes.

[914] That's definitely a struggle.

[915] It is, right?

[916] It's hard for the other person.

[917] It can be hard for the other person.

[918] Because you're going places and you're seeing someone that your significant other has met seven times.

[919] And they never remember their name.

[920] Yeah.

[921] Yeah.

[922] Well, yeah, that's a whole show.

[923] It's brutal, right?

[924] It can be tough.

[925] And then it's like, it's not like you don't understand and empathize, but you can never really understand how it is.

[926] Well, you got to go marry Kristen Bell.

[927] Well, you, yeah, there you go.

[928] That's the anecdote.

[929] The antidote.

[930] The antidote.

[931] Yeah.

[932] Did you feel this crazy pressure?

[933] Was it debilitating at all to have had that successful of a first album?

[934] I thought about it a lot.

[935] And somebody said to me, she read some interview with it.

[936] I don't know who it was.

[937] It might have been like Renee's Oliveira.

[938] I don't know.

[939] It was some really good famous advice where they said, you know, enjoy it, but just don't ever look at it head on.

[940] And I thought that was really interesting.

[941] And that I took that advice and I tried to take that approach.

[942] What does that mean to not look at something head on?

[943] The fame, the success part, don't look at that part head on.

[944] It's there.

[945] You can recognize it and acknowledge it, but don't take it into your bones as the thing.

[946] Because what is the thing for me?

[947] It's the music.

[948] And it always has been, I was never trying to chase a hit.

[949] I certainly didn't think, don't know why I was going to be a hit.

[950] I mean, it's a good song.

[951] But it's not like what you would call a hit at the time.

[952] Right.

[953] Right.

[954] So I knew that chasing a hit or a hit record wasn't going to be the right thing to do.

[955] And I knew that I didn't want to just remake the same record.

[956] So I thought, I just, you know, I just play music and try to find some good songs.

[957] And I started, because I really was a new songwriter at the time.

[958] I only had two songs of my own on the first record.

[959] And so I was really getting into songwriting.

[960] And I was working on that, my craft still.

[961] I was so young.

[962] So I tried to focus on that, and that's what I did.

[963] And it was the best thing for me. Oh, so maybe here's something I'm wondering.

[964] Did you at all, with all that crazy success, was part of you feeling guilty like, oh, I didn't write all this stuff?

[965] No, because I came from interpreting old jazz standards.

[966] Right.

[967] So I didn't come from that side of things.

[968] I mean, I think I eventually got a little, like, insecure because I read some stupid comment or something about.

[969] Well, she didn't even write all this line.

[970] You know, at some point I had that in my head for sure.

[971] But I didn't really care.

[972] I mean, I'm an interpreter.

[973] I'm a singer and a musician.

[974] And I do believe you have to own a song to really convey it and sing it, whether you wrote it or not.

[975] And I felt like I own those songs, you know?

[976] Yeah.

[977] So let me ask you this.

[978] Were you as healthy then as you are now?

[979] Are you transposing your current viewpoint of all this on the 23 -year -old you?

[980] Or were you genuinely that at peace with all of it at 23?

[981] I wasn't at peace with it, but I was way, way healthier than I think most people would have been at the time.

[982] And I think it might be because my mom really kind of, I think she saw a lot of shit being with my dad and being around that famous thing.

[983] Yeah.

[984] And she didn't play that.

[985] So did she come get involved with you physically during that explosion?

[986] She is.

[987] She was very involved, not like a mom and dad.

[988] or anything, but very, like, watching my ass.

[989] If I got out of line, I heard about it immediately.

[990] Not only her, but, like, my boyfriend at the time, my bass player, and also my, one of my old best friends became my tour manager and then became in my band.

[991] They were watching my ass.

[992] Right.

[993] I mean, I had people watching me from every angle making sure I didn't act like a jerk.

[994] Uh -huh.

[995] And I still act like a jerk sometimes, but I had a lot of people pulling me down to earth constantly.

[996] What are your jerky moves?

[997] I really can't imagine that.

[998] I mean, back then, I mean, I got super impatient and hangary and, you know, drunk, whatever.

[999] But, yeah, I mean, I'm pretty mild in that way.

[1000] I'm not a total dick.

[1001] What year did you do your 60 -minute segment?

[1002] Oh, God.

[1003] I think that was like 2007.

[1004] Okay, because I watched the shit out of that.

[1005] Oh, my God.

[1006] Well, first of all, I love 60 Minutes' favorite show on television.

[1007] It made me, I was like, I found it to be very, very.

[1008] unique in a very nice way.

[1009] I was like...

[1010] Really?

[1011] Well, what was it?

[1012] Was it a...

[1013] It was a profile as they do on 60 minutes.

[1014] They'll save that third act for like something fun and fluffy.

[1015] And he'll do an actor.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] You got to take all these walks around.

[1018] Did you go back to your home for it?

[1019] No, we were in New York.

[1020] That's my generally my favorite part is like Pelly will be stroll in the streets of, you know, some backwater town and you're letting there pointing out their family house and stuff.

[1021] Got it.

[1022] I love it.

[1023] I like it so much, but yours was like, I remember thinking even while I was watching it, like, where does this person, how did they get this compass they seem to have?

[1024] Like, you're young, you seem kind of unaffected by all of it, and you're not falling for the trappings.

[1025] I certainly would have at your age with money and all that stuff.

[1026] And I was, the only thing I wish they had answered was like, what I'm asking you now, what was the foundation?

[1027] how on earth were you staying that's a very tricky see to navigate the explosion of attention and your ego and all you're a human right with an ego yeah it's true yeah and you seem to be doing it quite well and I was wondering like what's the secret I don't know I think I just I don't know who did your segment by the way do you remember hey correct oh we've had her we had Casey on here I mean it was cool I just don't like how close I they get with interviews now they want to be like up your nostrils and you know i don't know she did ask one question it was like a gotcha question like she like read a bad review and then wanted to see my reaction i'm like don't do that come on man right do you want me to do that to you like why yeah did did you get defensive it hurts your feelings come on i'm a human like i don't need anybody to kiss my ass but you don't have to go out of your way to hurt somebody's feelings yeah And the clickbait, Katie Curry hurt my feelings.

[1028] She's like one of the nicest people.

[1029] She is.

[1030] Yeah.

[1031] She's a spark plug too.

[1032] She's fun.

[1033] Don't underestimate her.

[1034] No, she's cool.

[1035] It was all good.

[1036] But I know what you're saying.

[1037] You know what I'm saying.

[1038] Once when back in the days when I had a Google alert on myself.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] I get a fucking alert.

[1041] Back Shepard can't wait to read what this is about.

[1042] It's in the Boston Globe.

[1043] And I'm looking at it and it's an article about politics.

[1044] And I'm thinking, well, how much?

[1045] am I going to be in this article, right?

[1046] And I guess at the time that the newspaper had predicted the winner of an election.

[1047] And this writer for the Boston Globe said, we have, we are on record predicting so -and -so is going to win this election.

[1048] But we should also admit, we also predicted Dak Shepard was going to be a big star.

[1049] And it was like, I was like, you've got to really go out of your way.

[1050] Like, I have nothing to do with politics.

[1051] This person just got an axe to grind with me. Yes.

[1052] And you know what's interesting?

[1053] I ended up tweeting that person.

[1054] I was angry.

[1055] And I basically just said, like, I don't know what I've done to you that you'd have to include me in this political article.

[1056] And then he kind of direct messages me back and he goes, you know what, man, you're right.

[1057] I don't even really know why I said that.

[1058] And I guess when I wrote it, of course, I didn't think you'd read it.

[1059] And then by some crazy thing we find out like he's sober and I'm sober and then I end up years later I'm there like dating a girl who's working there I fucking went to coffee with this dude that's crazy and the only thing it helped me understand is like I'm assuming the worst intentions possible if I read something and then in fact a lot of people are just saying shit off the cuff they don't even they are they're like they thought about it in that second it's like I would have assumed that writer thought about me all the time what a hack shitty actor I was yeah no that moment while typing his deadline he threw something stupid out and you know but I I then learn from that why I don't have the the self -esteem to navigate and just assume everyone's lovely and just you know no because you like you read something and it could be all praised and then there's like one line of something that's a little critical and that's all you hear I the power of something negative is infinitely stronger than the power yeah yeah I'll like Monica and I will talk about in here.

[1060] Even if someone writes a glowing review of this podcast, often it'll start with, I can't believe I'm about to say this, but.

[1061] And that's what you hear.

[1062] That's it.

[1063] That's it.

[1064] It doesn't really matter.

[1065] That they had low expectation.

[1066] Yes.

[1067] They were assuming the worst and they were shocked to find out they didn't throw up while listening.

[1068] I know.

[1069] It's so weird.

[1070] But that, I mean, that's what makes us sensitive humans and artists and even non -artists probably would feel the same way.

[1071] Yes.

[1072] They got critiqued at their job, you know.

[1073] Yeah.

[1074] Or whatever.

[1075] it's your job it's your job that's the thing they're critiquing your job even though we're entertainers and you know it's normal but it's kind of weird to be constantly like judged you know what i mean well i'd argue in your case even deeper because the product is you you you sat down and wrote this oh yeah yeah it's not like all 20 000 people getting together to yeah like if someone says your song sucks like that's as close to your soul as that's that anyone's ever going to get to probably witness, right?

[1076] Like, I read one review once.

[1077] On my second record, I had a song that I was pretty proud of, and one review said it was really cliche, and the words were bad.

[1078] And I was like, woo!

[1079] I was just so sad.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] But it's still, like, when I play it, it's like people's favorite songs, so it makes me happy, but I still hear that in the back of my mind.

[1082] Well, now, and now media has shifted so much, even then from when you were first out.

[1083] Totally.

[1084] where now they just need traffic and negativity attracts more clicks.

[1085] It's true.

[1086] So they're kind of fucked, even if they would like to do something nice.

[1087] They're rewarded and incentivized to write the most terrible headline possible, so you'll read.

[1088] It's a vicious, noisy cycle right now, and it's just kind of ruining us.

[1089] Are you on social media?

[1090] No. You're not.

[1091] I tried it a couple years ago.

[1092] I tried to do Instagram.

[1093] I don't want to be that famous.

[1094] That's the thing.

[1095] I don't want to be super recognized.

[1096] I have flown really under the radar for 15 or so years, and I don't want that to change.

[1097] If I saw you at a restaurant, I wouldn't have said, oh, there's Nora Jones.

[1098] People don't recognize me a ton, or if they do, they don't really bother me. But it's nice.

[1099] And what's my life?

[1100] I tour and I hang out with my kids and my family.

[1101] I don't really want to put them on it.

[1102] So I don't know.

[1103] It didn't feel supernatural to me, and I think that's obvious when it's not natural to somebody, and it's kind of contrived.

[1104] So I stopped doing it.

[1105] Even though you're a performer, you don't strike me as an extrovert by nature.

[1106] I mean, yeah, not unless I've had a few drinks and we're at the bar and we're hanging.

[1107] And then I'll, yeah, I'll be totally silly, but I'm not, yeah, I'm not like, look at my picture, you know.

[1108] Right.

[1109] Yeah.

[1110] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1111] And so, so the first trip to the Grammys, you won five of the eight you were nominated for, and you tied Lauren Hill and someone else for most, most Grammys by a woman ever.

[1112] Did that at that time feel significant to win?

[1113] Like, were the Grammys something that you watched or that you...

[1114] I think I watched them.

[1115] I don't think I ever thought, I'm going to win a Grammy someday.

[1116] I guess I just never thought that.

[1117] But, I mean, it was huge.

[1118] It was a huge moment.

[1119] And the record had already been huge.

[1120] And I was like, well, I mean, it's already huge, so whatever.

[1121] But I can't, I couldn't imagine how much huger it got after the Grammy.

[1122] Oh, that was a bit, that, that is helpful.

[1123] Yeah, like it actually does.

[1124] Or at the time, it did.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] Now I don't know.

[1127] Well, that happens to like best pitcher often too.

[1128] But, you know, it was crazy.

[1129] And did you, so what were some of the biggest audiences you played for in that period?

[1130] Well, because the music is what it was.

[1131] Yeah.

[1132] We were pretty cautious.

[1133] We weren't playing stadiums because it wouldn't have worked.

[1134] Oh, that's, you know what I mean?

[1135] Yeah, again, and so I'm a greedy little piggy.

[1136] So if you would have told me I could sell 75 ,000 tickets, I would have been very tempted to.

[1137] But that would have been a mistake because, and the man, you know, my managers at the time were smart enough to know that, like, you want to nurture this artist for longevity, not like just make all the money right the second.

[1138] Well, again, too, you were working in a different paradigm by which your album was generating money.

[1139] Nowadays, you virtually have to because that's the only revenue source, really.

[1140] Yeah.

[1141] So another nice thing about when and where you were when that all happened.

[1142] Yeah.

[1143] And did you like that aspect of it?

[1144] I really liked it.

[1145] I got really exhausted sometime after that.

[1146] And I shut down and I was really just like, it was just overwhelming, just the amount of work we were doing.

[1147] Yeah.

[1148] Because we were trying to cash in all of it or they were.

[1149] and I was just kind of doing what I was supposed to be doing.

[1150] And I finally had a little bit of a breakdown.

[1151] I was like, can we just not do, I'm not doing any more interviews.

[1152] We're selling a shit done of CDs.

[1153] Quit making me work for it.

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] It's done.

[1156] And it's going to ruin.

[1157] Yes, that's what I said.

[1158] It's going to kill the golden goose, right?

[1159] I said, I'm not having fun anymore.

[1160] Yeah.

[1161] And can we please stop and take a little breather?

[1162] And so I can enjoy the music.

[1163] And I started enjoying it more after we stopped doing all the, like every last interview we could, before sound check and losing my voice and yeah are you uh it doesn't sound like your mom's a people pleaser which could be a really great gift to pass on to you are you a people pleaser or are you fine with boundaries i i'm a bit of a people pleaser i want people to be happy i don't want people to be upset with me but i also have that mom streak in me that is like no but it's a balance right yeah um okay so i'm just going to now fast forward so you put out several albums You end up, again, you don't want to say it, but I'll say it.

[1164] You've sold 50 million albums.

[1165] That's crazy.

[1166] I didn't know that.

[1167] Fucking 50 million.

[1168] That's like Mike Jackson shit, 50 million albums, okay?

[1169] Put it in context, all right?

[1170] Is there a point where you, because my fantasy of this would be, with the success of that you could actually go, hmm, now I'm going to do this exactly how I want to do it, because really money's not a factor anymore.

[1171] Did you have that moment in your life?

[1172] Yeah, I mean, I think that sometime after the first record, maybe during the second, or maybe it was after the second record, but I think it was actually after the first record, I went back to the living room and I started playing with friends.

[1173] I started a country band in New York with my friends called The Little Willies and we played at tiny clubs.

[1174] And that's how I kind of kept just like finding joy playing music and less pressure, and that's where I sort of worked stuff out and realize, okay, I can still do this however I want, doesn't have to be big potatoes every time, it can be whatever.

[1175] Did you feel pressure, though, for it to be big potatoes, to steal your words?

[1176] No, because I was just coming off of, like, the craziest thing, and I still haven't waited that much time between records.

[1177] You know what I mean?

[1178] It's not like I went away for 10 years and didn't give them a record or whatever the label, I mean.

[1179] So I just kind of, you know, I'm a musician and it's like musicians, we just want to play music.

[1180] It's hard to not play music.

[1181] Well, but I would argue that most people that have had the success you have had end up chasing it.

[1182] And this is what I was about to say to you before we started recording, which is the actual only example I can think of in my mind is like Eddie Vedder.

[1183] Like you seem to now be, you're doing what Eddie Vedder decided.

[1184] He's like, oh, I don't like this stadium thing.

[1185] And for me to love it, it's got to be this tiny thing.

[1186] And he seemingly is quite happy doing the thing he does.

[1187] Yeah, that's what I think I've finally realized.

[1188] I do whatever side bands I want.

[1189] Sometimes we play tiny clubs.

[1190] Sometimes I put out albums with these sidebands last night.

[1191] I play with one of my favorite bands, Puss and Boots.

[1192] And we're like so inspired and fired up right now to play music together because we've been doing a few months of it now.

[1193] we're like writing new songs and playing small clubs and we're going to go record.

[1194] I mean, it's inspiring.

[1195] It's exciting.

[1196] Keeping it fresh and new and doing different things.

[1197] And it doesn't have to be this big huge deal every time.

[1198] It makes it able to be spontaneous and fun.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] And I think that's what's also kept me grounded, like what we were talking about before and not sort of chasing some crazy thing because it's not always real.

[1202] I mean, the money is real and the clicks are real maybe like on the internet.

[1203] But for me, I mean, I just want it to be good and fun.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] Do you find, though, that I think there's two potential hazards to creativity.

[1206] And I think one of them is money.

[1207] Yeah, you're right.

[1208] Like, it's hard to stay hungry.

[1209] Yes.

[1210] When you're safe.

[1211] For me, I think, I mean, if I hadn't made money, I don't know how it would have been different.

[1212] You know, I think because I made money first, I was able to - You're like an NFL player.

[1213] Yeah, because I'm made the money, and now I'm able to just sort of find out what I really want to do, you know?

[1214] Right.

[1215] I mean, yeah.

[1216] And it changes.

[1217] My tastes change, my inspiration, my influences change yearly, and I, you know, I can do it.

[1218] The other thing to me that seems like a pitfall, too, of creativity.

[1219] is just age.

[1220] Yeah.

[1221] Do you find that as you get older, it's harder?

[1222] And do you need to feed off younger musicians?

[1223] Like, does being in a band with younger, hungry people help?

[1224] I felt like this last year has been incredibly creative for me. So I think it comes in waves.

[1225] And I remember being really depressed.

[1226] I got really depressed after my second record.

[1227] And I was like, I don't know how to write songs.

[1228] It's not coming.

[1229] I'm not really doing anything.

[1230] And I remember I called at the time, I was talking to Ryan Adams.

[1231] He kind of helped me through it.

[1232] And he's like, you just got to go fishing every day.

[1233] But then I realized over the years, that's not exactly my process.

[1234] What I realized is it's okay, it'll come back.

[1235] When it comes back, it'll come back, it'll come back.

[1236] And it can come back hard, the creativity.

[1237] It's kind of like a marriage, isn't it?

[1238] Yeah.

[1239] What are you laughing at?

[1240] How long have you been together?

[1241] Five years.

[1242] Okay, so you're not in the doldrums yet.

[1243] But look, when you're in a really long -term relationship, you have to have the confidence that it'll come back.

[1244] It blows right now.

[1245] We're not connected.

[1246] But you know what?

[1247] I get it.

[1248] In two months, we're going to, we're going to fucking binge watch a show together and we're going to like feel it.

[1249] No, you're right.

[1250] I know what you mean.

[1251] Yeah.

[1252] And I got over that like panic of no creativity.

[1253] And so it comes in waves.

[1254] And I think with age, so far, I don't feel like I'm losing it.

[1255] Well, I'm going to throw another theory at you too, is I would imagine this.

[1256] wave of current creativity could likely come on from you when you have kids and you take that like the you got to focus like a motherfucker on that first year right and what your second child's now two two and a half yeah yeah so once like you know they're not literally dependent on your breast to be alive does it feel like a long winter and all some the sun's out like exactly yeah it does I just bull's -eyed that fucking...

[1257] You just nailed that shit on the head.

[1258] I'm at myself in the back right now.

[1259] Monica's not impressed.

[1260] You're right.

[1261] And I...

[1262] My husband had this idea, actually.

[1263] It was his idea, and he was right.

[1264] And I've been doing this thing where I don't want to do a whole album cycle and like take my kids on the road for a year.

[1265] I mean, they love going on the road, but I don't want to do it that hard.

[1266] I don't need to.

[1267] Right.

[1268] And that's great.

[1269] I'm lucky.

[1270] I decide.

[1271] And, you know, albums are great and I love albums and I'm not, you know, I'm not like never going to make an album again.

[1272] But everybody's got such short attention span, including me. My attention span is so short now.

[1273] Yeah, look, I don't buy fucking albums anymore.

[1274] I mean, I do, but I don't listen to them all the time.

[1275] Right.

[1276] It just, it'd be, yes, it's just so interesting now.

[1277] Like, I would have never thought I'd consume music the way I currently do.

[1278] But it's like, I hear something.

[1279] I go to get that song and then I'll listen to the other nine.

[1280] like just the snippet of it.

[1281] And if one kind of jumps out at me, then I'll, like, I didn't know who Mac Miller was.

[1282] Oh, me neither.

[1283] Spotify just, like, added him to my play.

[1284] Oh, yeah.

[1285] Oh, my God.

[1286] So I just, I love to live with L 'E and I saw on one of his posts that this guy had died.

[1287] I didn't even know who he was.

[1288] So I decided to look at, oh, who's this guy who died?

[1289] And then I, like, heard one song.

[1290] I was like, holy fuck.

[1291] And then again, I just went over to iTunes.

[1292] I, like, grabbed the three songs I liked.

[1293] Then as those got a little tired, I'm like, dig a little deeper.

[1294] Went back to iTunes, grabbed a few more.

[1295] And now I'm like, slowly I've collected like 13 songs of his I love.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] But that's how I'm doing it now.

[1298] Yeah, or you go and they recommend stuff that's similar to what you like.

[1299] And then you discover all this stuff that is amazing.

[1300] I've discovered so much old music, too, from all this, like, suggestions for you.

[1301] It's cool.

[1302] It's like you're discovering new music, but you're also discovering just old -ass obscure music that is insane.

[1303] And is your friendship circle largely musicians?

[1304] largely.

[1305] Okay.

[1306] And I told you I play the drums.

[1307] Okay.

[1308] And you know my wife's singing.

[1309] Podcasters.

[1310] Podcasts.

[1311] I love podcasters.

[1312] Love comedians.

[1313] Well, it shows.

[1314] It shows.

[1315] I mean, I've got a lot of friends, but yeah.

[1316] I presume you're promoting something right now, right?

[1317] Well, so I was like I was kind of getting it.

[1318] I'm putting out singles.

[1319] Okay.

[1320] You're putting out singles.

[1321] So I put out four so far, but my goal was to just like, I want to be home with my kids.

[1322] I want to travel and tour sporadically and enjoy that but not like overdo it.

[1323] And I want to go in the studio and collaborate with other people and like stay interested and try different things because I've collaborated with a lot of people in the last 15 years and it's always brought me somewhere else in a great way.

[1324] And I'm open to doing stuff with anybody and and I play the drums.

[1325] I'm interested in just trying new things in a super safe, chill way and releasing it and moving on.

[1326] Uh -huh.

[1327] You know, and then when I tour, I'm going to have some new material, too, and it's great.

[1328] And what does your husband do?

[1329] He plays music.

[1330] Oh, he does?

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] Do you guys play music together?

[1333] Sometimes we do.

[1334] But, I mean, I think our favorite time playing music together is just at home.

[1335] Like, one of us will get on the drums and one of us will get on the guitar.

[1336] I mean, that's what we both really want to play drums and guitar.

[1337] Uh -huh.

[1338] Yeah, of course.

[1339] Yeah.

[1340] Because it's cool, right?

[1341] Exactly.

[1342] How fun for your kids.

[1343] It's fun.

[1344] I bet they don't give a shit, though.

[1345] Do they care?

[1346] They're just starting to be fun.

[1347] and play music and like any kid any girl any five and a half year old girl in america would cut off her pinky on her hand to hear princess anna sing new songs from frozen all day long in the house as she learns them they don't give a shit you know when your parents are like yeah but they might not be cognizant of it now but it will affect them as a human and when they're an adult they're going to be very grateful that they grew up in that environment yeah i mean i can't imagine a cooler environment to grow up in one that's like constantly musical musical i know so lucky i'm very jealous of your children i mean yeah we try to keep it fun yeah and your kids are two and what uh two and almost five two and almost five boys or girls a boy and a girl oh you got both and does the boy just love mom like crazy right now he's a real daddy's boy oh he does i mean he loves me but uh right now he's like it was so cute we did this costume party for school and we were all supposed to wear costumes.

[1348] I said, what do you want your costume?

[1349] I want to be daddy.

[1350] Oh, if I were that daddy, oh, a dog.

[1351] You know, it was so cute.

[1352] He wore his clothes and it was falling off of him.

[1353] My equivalent to that is that the five and a half year old now would die if she even knew.

[1354] I said this, but the four -year -old still in the face where she wants to marry me, which is my favorite thing in the world.

[1355] She literally said, like, two weeks ago, were laying in bed at nighttime, and she said, Daddy, can you divorce mommy and we can get married?

[1356] that's so sweet and I'm like absolutely where should we go on a honeymoon and then you just get to pretend where you're going to go so wonderful so I'm going to let you go but I want to know what like what do you do for fun what are your hobbies I take a pottery class and I make weird ass masks I don't know it's like my therapy what kind of masks are we talking about I don't know I've got one that turned out to be Satan and then I've got like a bunch of goofy long nose long tongue like hang my jewelry on it oh i don't know that's kind of silly i still feel like music is my hobby i mean because that's what keeps it fun do you have any current favorite musicians right now that are like blowing your your hair back i'm i'm kind of like i'm really into this piano player on that ethiopeaks stuff this old ethiopeaks yeah it's like these old musicians from the 30s or 40s from ethiopia that did this it was just beautiful music wait you mentioned talib And you did a song with Talib, right?

[1357] I did.

[1358] Yeah.

[1359] You did?

[1360] That's on.

[1361] So, Dak made me a playlist of songs.

[1362] Oh, my God.

[1363] It's on there.

[1364] Oh, my God.

[1365] Yeah.

[1366] I'm having an out -of -body experience right now.

[1367] Soon the New Day.

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] I love that one.

[1370] Wait a minute.

[1371] I, oh my God.

[1372] Monica.

[1373] Why didn't I put that together?

[1374] That is my single favorite song.

[1375] Soon the New Day.

[1376] Yeah.

[1377] It's a beautiful.

[1378] It's good.

[1379] A great song.

[1380] That was fun.

[1381] I wrote a script.

[1382] First line of the thing is, you know, you often put what music comes first before the scene.

[1383] And in the script, it says, Soon the New Day by Tlib, it said, if this song doesn't make you want to fuck, you're dead.

[1384] In parentheses, for people who haven't heard it.

[1385] That was great.

[1386] What was that?

[1387] I just want to nerd out for a second.

[1388] Was that a fun experience?

[1389] Yeah, it was fun.

[1390] I mean, I just went into the studio and he already had it all mapped out.

[1391] So I just saying it.

[1392] Oh, my God.

[1393] I'm so happy you just pointed out.

[1394] It's a good one.

[1395] I haven't heard that in a long time.

[1396] All right.

[1397] Well, what's next?

[1398] Are you playing anywhere coming up?

[1399] So Puss and Boots and it's like a, we got together maybe 10 years.

[1400] We've been together almost.

[1401] My friend Sasha Dobson and Catherine Popper.

[1402] Sasha and I got together to sort of learn how to play guitar.

[1403] Okay.

[1404] And so, because she's a singer and I'm a piano player and singer.

[1405] But we basically just booked these gigs in New York at these.

[1406] at this pool hall and did a gig every week I wore a hat and like played shitty guitar for years until we kind of got a thing.

[1407] And was the goal to actually, um, try to let, prevent anyone from knowing it was actually you.

[1408] It was like that part of the recipe.

[1409] I didn't want anybody know it was me. Right.

[1410] So nobody did.

[1411] I mean, eventually we kind of got a thing together and we became a band and it and now we have this whole thing and we're like a, I mean, it's so fun right now.

[1412] Playing with a band Just being in a band is special.

[1413] When you have the chemistry, when it's good, it is so good.

[1414] Well, it's what, like, even these guys who retire from the NFL, people think, oh, what they miss is the spotlight.

[1415] But it's like people who have spent their life on a team.

[1416] Yeah.

[1417] It's really depressing to not be on one of those teams.

[1418] Yeah.

[1419] And it's really fun to go out there and have three strong personalities and just be riffing with each.

[1420] It's a really fun band that they are hilarious.

[1421] people and um over the like i've finally learned how to play guitar and last night we played i've been playing drums on a few songs and now we're switching instruments again to kind of learn a new thing but it's inspiring we're all writing a lot of new songs for the band you know it's like when i started writing songs i just kind of did whatever came to me or or was inspired by whatever i was listening to but now it's funny how when i'm playing with certain people i start thinking in terms of writing like Oh, I'm going to write this song.

[1422] And then I was, oh, this will work with this group of musicians, you know.

[1423] So how many bands are you in right now currently?

[1424] Well, that band, I have this band called The Little Willies that I play with sometimes, that we haven't played in a while, but we just did this Willie Nelson thing.

[1425] For his birthday, we played a couple of songs.

[1426] We're called The Little Willies after Willie Nelson.

[1427] Oh, that's really cute.

[1428] But both of these two bands are kind of country, but also they're bar bands.

[1429] And it's just fun.

[1430] Did you?

[1431] Oh, you brought a guitar?

[1432] I brought a guitar.

[1433] What's your willingness to play a song?

[1434] I'm willing to play a song.

[1435] I just don't really know what.

[1436] Oh, can I ask you a pervy question?

[1437] Yeah.

[1438] You can cut, oh, you tell me to.

[1439] Yeah, please ask me a pervy question.

[1440] Okay.

[1441] When I heard that song, I didn't come.

[1442] Oh, yeah.

[1443] I was like, does she mean she didn't orgasm?

[1444] Do a lot of people.

[1445] Because can I just, is that a common question?

[1446] It's just like a joke.

[1447] Oh, I'm not, I say it sincerely because, let me tell you why.

[1448] I can build like a whole emotional case how a woman would end up writing that song because men are so obsessed with did you come oh yeah like like their whole self - that's right and like their whole self -esteem is going to collapse if you did orgasm and I can imagine being a woman who loves a guy and it's like I'm sorry but it doesn't mean anything like I can imagine writing that song because you like someone who was taking making a big mountain out of that I never thought of it that way but you know Jesse wrote the song so well did he ever not come I mean, Jesse's super cagey.

[1449] He's super, like, he's super...

[1450] Subversive?

[1451] Yeah, he won't, like, quite go into detail.

[1452] And I don't think I ever asked him.

[1453] I just liked the song, and we did it quick, and it was done.

[1454] It's beautiful, but today I was listening to it and watching it with the lyrics on the screen.

[1455] Yeah.

[1456] Like, really trying to investigate.

[1457] I'm like, I was looking, I was like, am I way off base here?

[1458] Or, and it's totally inconclusive.

[1459] You could go either way with that song still.

[1460] But, I mean, that's the good thing about songs.

[1461] You should interpret it how it.

[1462] It makes sense to you.

[1463] Yeah.

[1464] I love that.

[1465] Oh, to me, I was like, oh, this makes total sense.

[1466] And what a lovely person she took the time to say, like, hey, I don't know why I didn't come.

[1467] But everything's cool and I still love you.

[1468] Maybe next time I will.

[1469] That's really funny.

[1470] So you are open to playing, but you're not sure what song you would play.

[1471] Well, let me do this new song.

[1472] Okay.

[1473] Let me do an old song.

[1474] Yeah.

[1475] Okay.

[1476] Okay.

[1477] So this is like a travel guitarist, not great.

[1478] I'm always, it's the only play.

[1479] place you are locked inside my mind is wide a thousand lives i just close my eyes and there will stay entwined in love till we're old and good behind my watch you smile or maybe we'll just talk a while protected by walls we'll rise and We'll fall and will As one in the sun Then I prize them open Stare at the sky And I cry and I cry Because you don't know You don't know I'm rising above You don't know You don't know you don't know This life I'm lived So I look to the road That goes over to the valley Beyond that I look in my heart and I hope and pray for something to lead me the righteous way.

[1480] I don't want to do.

[1481] You don't know.

[1482] I tell myself, you don't know, you don't know.

[1483] I'm rising above.

[1484] You don't know.

[1485] You don't know.

[1486] You don't know.

[1487] You don't know.

[1488] You don't know.

[1489] Oh, you don't know.

[1490] I was having a whole fantasy while I was listening to that.

[1491] I had my eyes closed and I was seeing a picnic in a grassy field.

[1492] That's what it does.

[1493] Your songs, I am immediately somewhere else.

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] And also there's like it's a period piece for me too.

[1496] Yeah.

[1497] The picnic?

[1498] The picnic was like 50s.

[1499] In Texas.

[1500] Yes, absolutely.

[1501] So you know my Texas, right?

[1502] Like coming out.

[1503] I do.

[1504] And it's definitely country, right?

[1505] I mean, it's...

[1506] Yeah, well, this song I wrote for that band Puss and Boots.

[1507] Yeah, which is country.

[1508] Yeah, it's a new song, so, yeah, it's fun when we get together and talk and then we write.

[1509] Well, what other song are you going to?

[1510] So you're going to play an old one?

[1511] I could play an old one.

[1512] I think you're doing just fine on the guitar.

[1513] I mean, you seem to have some kind of anxiety about it, but I...

[1514] No, I mean, I just...

[1515] I'm kind of limited to country songs on the guitar, whereas on the piano, I can play all kinds of.

[1516] of different chords that I don't know on the guitar.

[1517] Right.

[1518] Ooh, I have a question for you.

[1519] This is just a weird question.

[1520] Most of my friends who play guitar and sing, when they sing and play guitar, they stare at you.

[1521] Oh, yeah?

[1522] Have you noticed that with musicians?

[1523] Like, even if they're at your house, they like stare at.

[1524] And I notice when I play guitar, I stare at people.

[1525] Really?

[1526] I think I stared over there.

[1527] Yeah, I don't think you stared at anybody.

[1528] I didn't notice that she did either.

[1529] I would feel really creepy doing that.

[1530] Thank you.

[1531] Yes.

[1532] But it seems to be really common.

[1533] Yeah.

[1534] Well, you just want an excuse to look at people while you do weird stuff, like accents.

[1535] Okay, all right.

[1536] Okay, then.

[1537] Well, I just did this Dolly tribute the other night, and I did this dolly song.

[1538] Do you want me to do that?

[1539] Of course I do.

[1540] What do you think about Jolene?

[1541] That song's in my top ten of all time.

[1542] Jolene is genius, and it's beautiful, and I covered it.

[1543] I have recorded it with the Little Willies, the country band.

[1544] Oh, really?

[1545] Yeah.

[1546] We always, it's like, it's like.

[1547] everybody's favorite song.

[1548] I don't care who you are.

[1549] My South Indian stepmother is obsessed with Dolly Parton.

[1550] She's like, oh, I love her.

[1551] She loves her.

[1552] I mean, like, everybody just loves Dolly.

[1553] Everybody.

[1554] I did this song.

[1555] I sang the song on a Dolly tribute album maybe 15 years ago or more.

[1556] And she liked my version of it.

[1557] So she asked me to sing it with her on the Country Music Awards.

[1558] Oh, you're kidding.

[1559] And so this is forever ago.

[1560] And I, and she was so kind.

[1561] and generous and like I she was so sweet and took me to dinner and told me I could use her hair and makeup person and do my hair and makeup on her tour bus with her and so I get to her tour bus and she opens the door and she's wearing like a football jersey and Barbie heels she's just like the most open kind sweetheart yeah but this is a song called The Grass is Blue it's from this bluegrass album she did maybe in like 2002 and it's it's just a great song I've had to think of a way to survive since you said it's over told me goodbye I just can't make it one day without you unless I pretend that the opposite's true Rivers flow backwards Valleys are high Mountains are level Truth is a light And the sky is green And the grass is Much can a heart And a troubled mind take Where is the final?

[1562] line before it all breaks can one in their sorrow just cross over it and in two of insanity's blaze there's snow in the tropics there on the sun is hard dick and crying is fun and the sky and the grass is eagles care my goodness isn't that the best song oh my gosh such a beautiful song wow dolly dolly what fucking trickery have you and i pulled off that nora came here is seen i had that on my way over i was like what is my life that this is all about to happen really really oh it is to do is asking i just show that it's something it's so it's So flattering that you would come sing for us.

[1563] It's so beautiful and unique.

[1564] I thanks for asking, you know.

[1565] Yeah.

[1566] I'm excited right now.

[1567] I was to play music.

[1568] And we had a really fun show last night.

[1569] So I was like, yeah, I want to sing another song.

[1570] Yeah, it makes me so happy.

[1571] Thank you.

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] I mean, really, I was thinking, yeah, I remember watching 60 minutes.

[1574] I really kind of fell low with her.

[1575] And then fucking, she's on that old shitty couch of ours singing right now.

[1576] One of us rescued someone in our past life.

[1577] Yeah, we heard that.

[1578] I didn't earn it in this lifetime, I'll tell you that much.

[1579] Nora, thank you so much for coming.

[1580] It's crazy, crazy nice that you came and sang for us on a rainy Sunday in Los Angeles.

[1581] Yeah, thank you.

[1582] It was fun.

[1583] Okay, good.

[1584] I appreciate it.

[1585] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1586] Yeah, I didn't come.

[1587] That was better.

[1588] I mean, good.

[1589] I don't know why I didn't come.

[1590] Good job.

[1591] Thank you.

[1592] I love that song.

[1593] Me too.

[1594] And I'm glad I had the gum, to ask her if it meant orgasm.

[1595] Because I really had convinced myself, I think, of a very plausible reason it was entitled that.

[1596] Right.

[1597] There's all this pressure on women to orgasm.

[1598] I certainly pressure women to orgasm.

[1599] One woman.

[1600] Well, I'm just saying historically.

[1601] Oh, okay.

[1602] I would love it.

[1603] I would prefer that they would orgasm.

[1604] Well, that's fine.

[1605] And then sometimes they just don't.

[1606] And guess what?

[1607] Sometimes, and I mean once every three years, I don't.

[1608] Uh -huh.

[1609] And it's never a comment on the other person's performa.

[1610] it'd be hard not to take it that way because we come so easy us guys yeah yeah but you know no one knows what's happening behind the scenes did you just uh pull pull it you know in the turlet an hour before because you didn't anticipate this kind of you know fun right that could happen sure you know there's different things you could be uh heavily sedated you know if you're just out of surgery oh well yeah i think in that case people probably have a lower bar that's true Well, I can see someone taking a personal I probably would I'm very sensitive Well, me too A lady who waxes me told me yesterday That I have a very thin skin And I was like, you're telling me The whole not a second Tell me something I don't know lady She actually was suggesting that your dermis Was thin?

[1611] Really?

[1612] Yeah What kind of clues is she getting That it's thin?

[1613] Well, she tore a big chunkier skin off That was nervous I was like, oh, what has happened down there That made you say that?

[1614] Yeah.

[1615] You know, we're talking about my private parts.

[1616] Sure, but we're being very eloquent about it.

[1617] Delicate.

[1618] She's an expert in private parts, okay?

[1619] For sure.

[1620] In female privates.

[1621] So she's seen a lot of skin and I guess mine's just thinner than what she's used to.

[1622] Was this her read?

[1623] Like, so she's got the wax on there and she's about to pull and she goes, oh, your skin is really thin.

[1624] Like if that happened.

[1625] I could see her scrambling trying to get some napkins in her.

[1626] Yeah, like if that would happen just before she pulled.

[1627] I'd be like, well, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[1628] Let's just warm this up and get it off of me, the unconventional way.

[1629] Right.

[1630] What was she saying?

[1631] Like, I could rip all your skin off.

[1632] Well, no, she just, it was, you know, it was actually post, post wax.

[1633] You guys were just kind of chilling and chatting.

[1634] And she was plucking.

[1635] She was doing some plucking.

[1636] Oh, gosh.

[1637] So first she gets in there with some wax.

[1638] Oh, yeah.

[1639] And then she goes at it with some tweezers.

[1640] Sometimes it's a mix of soft wax, hard wax.

[1641] And tweezing.

[1642] What is this?

[1643] Like $1 ,000?

[1644] It's got to be expensive.

[1645] Okay.

[1646] I don't know if I should say that.

[1647] Why?

[1648] I don't know.

[1649] You are so funny.

[1650] What could be bad about the price of getting your...

[1651] That's kind of indulgent.

[1652] Well, do you get waxed every week?

[1653] No. How often do you get waxed?

[1654] Quarterly?

[1655] No. Jesus.

[1656] Don't get offended.

[1657] Well, we already went over.

[1658] You have thin skin.

[1659] Go ahead.

[1660] Get offended.

[1661] We know medically you have a condition.

[1662] Four times a year.

[1663] Do you know what?

[1664] No, I could never do that.

[1665] I don't know what that would be.

[1666] Well, look at my hair on my head.

[1667] Okay.

[1668] That's a good indicator of what's going on.

[1669] Oh my God.

[1670] You have three foot long vaginal hair?

[1671] Yeah.

[1672] Oh my gosh.

[1673] If I let it go.

[1674] If I do quarterly, that's what it'll look like.

[1675] Wow.

[1676] But but even when I say quarterly, what I really mean is four times a year.

[1677] And that could just mean you go every three weeks in summer when you're going to be in a lot of swimwear.

[1678] And then you could just phone it in for eight months.

[1679] I don't know.

[1680] I don't know what program you're on.

[1681] I know.

[1682] But so how many times do you think it is?

[1683] I normally, I, probably once a month.

[1684] Okay, so 12 a year.

[1685] So that's $720 a year.

[1686] Oh, wow.

[1687] That's what all this is leading to, some fast math.

[1688] That's not terrible.

[1689] I don't, that's a lot of money.

[1690] Anywho.

[1691] Did she say there's anything you could do to make it thicker?

[1692] And is that something anyone would want to do?

[1693] I can't imagine down there you'd want to have like a pacaderm skin.

[1694] You know what a paciderm is?

[1695] No. Apacoderm's a group of animals described by their skin.

[1696] You've got rhinoceros, hippotomous, and elephants.

[1697] hippopotamus.

[1698] Yeah, yeah.

[1699] They're all pachyderms, a real, real thick skin.

[1700] They do have thick skin.

[1701] Yeah, yeah.

[1702] Interesting.

[1703] So do they want you to have like pachyderm?

[1704] I wouldn't want that.

[1705] No, I don't think so.

[1706] I feel like it would denigrate your sensitivity.

[1707] I think I could go a little thicker, but I probably don't want to get too thick down there.

[1708] Right, right, right.

[1709] But it is thin.

[1710] She's right.

[1711] It's pretty thin.

[1712] Okay.

[1713] All of it.

[1714] Emotionally and physically.

[1715] Right, right, right.

[1716] Well, it's part of your charm.

[1717] You're a feeler.

[1718] Yeah.

[1719] That's nice.

[1720] Sure.

[1721] Do you think on the playground if people wanted to be mean, they would call someone a packaderm pussy?

[1722] But do you think that they...

[1723] Anyone say, like, ooh, here comes Jenny, pack a durn pussy.

[1724] I hope nobody's saying that.

[1725] Also, what a deep cut.

[1726] Yeah, I hope they're not...

[1727] A deep cut.

[1728] Yes.

[1729] would require a very deep cut to get through that pachydermis, but I would be both proud of the person for being so inventive and scientific about their insult, and then I would be sad, of course, because that would be a mean, mean thing to say.

[1730] Unless it was super desirable in that culture.

[1731] It might be super desirable in ours.

[1732] I don't know.

[1733] To have just normal skin, then pachydermis below the waistline.

[1734] Well, okay, you're picturing like the color of a hippos.

[1735] No, no, same color.

[1736] Just five times thickness in one area.

[1737] That seems a little off -putting.

[1738] I think we'd all agree.

[1739] Okay, well, I have a weird question.

[1740] Can you tell a difference between thickness when you evolve your...

[1741] Exploits?

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] No, there's no way I could guess whether it was like a millimeter thick or 1 .2 millimeters thick.

[1744] I guess you would only be able to tell if it was so thin that you could, like, see their insides.

[1745] Or when you touched it, it broke, and then vice versa, if it was a...

[1746] packaderm style that like you just didn't move you know it's just pretty not malleable it was like a an old leather rawhide bone or a mold yeah like a leather mold yeah yeah cool cool I bet my waxer has seen that she's seen pussy packadermis do you think that's the medical she probably has pussus pacadermis Well, Monica, what we're seeing down here is, it's nothing to be worried about.

[1747] It is a pussus pachydermis, and we're going to use a light acidic cream.

[1748] Oh, we're going to slowly going to, we're going to thin that out.

[1749] Oh, no. No, you won't feel a thing that the pachydermis is.

[1750] It's that thick.

[1751] Yeah, it's that thick.

[1752] Vaginous pachydermis.

[1753] Yeah.

[1754] Okay.

[1755] Okay.

[1756] Let's get off that.

[1757] Poor Nora, poor Nora Jones.

[1758] I know.

[1759] that's not the fact check she was hoping for she's so oh god can we talk about how pretty she is in real life yeah you already talked a ton about it i wonder people are going to be upset about that in front of her i did yeah oh why don't she if she liked it they can't they can't be upset for her that's true they will but they will but they can't you're right they can but they shouldn't someone uh and i i lashed out i clap back someone like didn't like that you said i'm here to please when we were in the live show and went on this little tirade about how how women are trying.

[1760] Yeah, and I wrote, what you should have written is that you would feel uncomfortable saying that, which is fine for you to feel.

[1761] But Monica did not, and you can't.

[1762] I'm also clearly not here to please.

[1763] Yes, and you're empowered, and you thought he was cute and you wanted to say whatever you wanted to say.

[1764] I wonder what I said it in reference to, do you remember?

[1765] We were talking about your boobs, and he said it makes me happy just knowing that we're talking about your boobs.

[1766] And you said, oh, I'm here to please.

[1767] Oh, yeah.

[1768] Yeah.

[1769] But you, you liked it.

[1770] You started that conversation.

[1771] And you said it and you liked it.

[1772] And that feminism isn't telling how people how they should be reacting to things.

[1773] It is saying what you don't like and you don't have to do the things you don't like.

[1774] You know, another beautiful lady said something recently about that, Emma Watson.

[1775] Emma Watson, very famous from the Terence Posner films.

[1776] Correct.

[1777] Yes.

[1778] you didn't hear that episode you don't know you're like terence posse no it's Harry Potter I'm gonna find it it's very uh it's poignant oh I'm looking over your chart here your x -rays came back everything seems to be going great uh now you do know that you have vaginous peccodermis or you did not know that I did know that actually okay great then I knew because I can't feel anything down there it's numb and things get turned And you use it to open pickle jars and stuff.

[1779] Oh, sure.

[1780] Party trick.

[1781] Okay, Emma Watson said, feminism is not a stick with which to beat other women with.

[1782] It's about freedom.

[1783] It's about liberation.

[1784] It's about equality.

[1785] I really don't know what my tits have to do with it.

[1786] So it's actually really relevant.

[1787] Ooh, because, wait, she was showing some titty or something.

[1788] I don't really know the context.

[1789] I just jumped to my most desirable.

[1790] What this could be a reaction to.

[1791] Well, probably.

[1792] She probably did, like, had like a low cut something.

[1793] Yeah, and someone tried to.

[1794] We're making a lot of assumptions.

[1795] We sure are.

[1796] Yeah, yeah, let's just back off.

[1797] Anyway, it's a good quote.

[1798] We don't know what we're talking about, but we like the quote.

[1799] Yeah.

[1800] Anywho.

[1801] And yeah, well, look.

[1802] I got real, you know, I don't have, I don't, I can resist clapping back in my own defense.

[1803] But boy, if they say something on my miniature mouse, I go straight at that keyboard.

[1804] You don't have to do that.

[1805] Thank you.

[1806] I do like it.

[1807] Yeah.

[1808] But you don't have to do that.

[1809] And you know what?

[1810] You know how I know I'm really not.

[1811] here to please because I don't care that that person said that.

[1812] Yeah, that's good.

[1813] I don't care about pleasing them.

[1814] Now, also, being feminist is not stowing your sexuality permanently.

[1815] If you want to pull out your sexuality and flirt publicly or be provocative or play a role, that's, and you're empowered, that's not anti -feminist.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] In fact, I would say that's very feminist to be.

[1818] Get them out.

[1819] throw away no this is why people get upset you know yeah okay we were talking about we were talking about words and phrases that we can't use anymore that we shouldn't use anymore right and you had learned one I had learned one recently that I couldn't remember but I was just reminded of what it is and it was sold you down the river sold you down the river right so okay that It must mean selling a slave.

[1820] Yes.

[1821] It's offensive and we're not going to use it.

[1822] Right.

[1823] But hold on one second.

[1824] So just because it has, it's referencing a historical thing that happened, what makes that racist?

[1825] To say you were treated like a slave, you can't not say you were treated like a slave.

[1826] It's minimizing that experience and making it something super, frivolous and nothing can't do that sure but you can go i mean it's it's people saying i'm i think they should be able to say like uh hate burger king they work me like a slave there that's that's that's still talking about slaves and you should still be able to say that yeah okay but look i'm just let's give an example so jipped you shouldn't say jipped anymore because it's it's in reference to gypsies giving people bad deals exactly so that's a character assassination on gypsies.

[1827] Right.

[1828] So it makes total sense why you wouldn't say it.

[1829] Mm -hmm.

[1830] Right?

[1831] Sold you down the river.

[1832] There's no negative characterization about anybody in that.

[1833] It's just like a reference to something that would like a back room deal.

[1834] But again, it's, it's taking something very serious.

[1835] Mm -hmm.

[1836] And I think it minimizes it by just making it this like frivolous phrase that we used to talk to, about not an important thing.

[1837] I just heard that you can't say sell me down the river.

[1838] And I think it, I'm not going to just, someone tells me, hey, you're not allowed to say that anymore.

[1839] And I go, oh, okay, no problem.

[1840] That's not my nature to just go, like, you tell me I can't say something.

[1841] And I go, okay, great.

[1842] I want to know why.

[1843] And just because you say, oh, it has a, it's a, you know, historically, it's about slaves, I still need more.

[1844] I still need to know why just referencing slaves is entirely off the table because we do it all the time.

[1845] Yeah, but slaves, there have been a ton of slaves in history.

[1846] Right.

[1847] So, this is, talking about a very specific American slavery situation.

[1848] Okay, but even within that, why would one slave be worse or better than the other?

[1849] Okay, so when I say, they work me like a slave at Burger King, I say, well, I'm referring to the Egyptian slaves.

[1850] Why is that any better?

[1851] Like, slavery is a concept and you use it as a reference point to bitch about something.

[1852] I think as long as what you're, the point you're making and why you're referencing something is exactly that to acknowledge that it was terrible, then I don't, I don't see it as undermining it.

[1853] I see it as actually, but it is undermining it because whatever you're talking about is not the same thing as getting sold down the river, your life.

[1854] Well, right.

[1855] And also, they're killing me at work doesn't really mean they're killing you.

[1856] We have all these expressions.

[1857] But one thing was forced on another person.

[1858] The other thing is not.

[1859] The other thing is something that happens in life.

[1860] That's not the same thing.

[1861] Okay.

[1862] There aren't racial implications all over this country because just generally people are dying.

[1863] Right.

[1864] But there are from slavery.

[1865] The fact that that happened is still causing problems.

[1866] Yeah, again, I just, I see why JIP shouldn't be sad because it's a character assessment on Gypsy's.

[1867] So that, I get that.

[1868] I'm just not getting this one and that's fine.

[1869] And I see your point.

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] But it doesn't seem negative towards anybody.

[1872] Any of that explanation other than that the root of that expression is in slavery.

[1873] But do you think that black people in this country aren't affected by slavery?

[1874] Of course they are.

[1875] Okay.

[1876] So that doesn't mean they're offended that someone references one of the aspects of slavery.

[1877] Yeah.

[1878] And making it sound like it's not that big of a deal.

[1879] Like whatever you're referencing when you say sold them down the river is like.

[1880] It's the same as threw me under the bus.

[1881] It's the same as all these things.

[1882] They're all hyperbolic.

[1883] I would need to hear from somebody so they could explain what's offensive about it.

[1884] Right now, I'm not understanding that.

[1885] I guess for me, what I don't understand about these conversations is why?

[1886] Why do you need that?

[1887] Why can't you just hear?

[1888] Because I don't blindly just accept what people tell me without any kind of explanation.

[1889] But it's their feelings.

[1890] Yeah, so to me, this would be, and I guarantee you would reject this.

[1891] Jewish people told me you can't call someone a Hitler anymore.

[1892] because there was a real Hitler and the real Hitler killed their ancestors.

[1893] So no one's allowed to say Hitler anymore.

[1894] That's the exact same thing.

[1895] What?

[1896] No. We have a guy who represents evil incarnate.

[1897] Now, to call a politician you don't like, Hitler is not undermining what a Jewish person's grandparents went through.

[1898] Those things are not related in any way.

[1899] And so if a Jewish person said, you can't say that anymore because of my grandparents, I would really need them to walk me through how it's hurting them and to make sure that they're not just trying to have a thing to have some control over in life.

[1900] But they can't just declare, the Jews can't declare that we're not allowed to reference Hitler onto other people.

[1901] Do you agree with that?

[1902] I mean, to be honest, if a whole bunch of Jewish people said, you know, it triggers something really negative for me when I hear that, I'm very happy to not say it.

[1903] Because what does it matter to me if I'm, if I keep one phrase in my vote?

[1904] vocabulary or not.

[1905] It doesn't.

[1906] If I know that it's hurting a group of people, for whatever reason it is, they are feeling something negative by hearing that.

[1907] I'm happy to not be a part of that.

[1908] That's great.

[1909] I don't believe in that.

[1910] I believe Pol Pot is a historical figure and we'll call people that are bad Stalin's and Polpots and Hitler's.

[1911] And just because certain people's ancestors were the ones who died, it doesn't take it off the table.

[1912] It's exactly how we use hyperbole.

[1913] So no, I don't, I don't think we're used to start eradicating things like the reality of the slave trade out of art. It's not eradicating the reality of it.

[1914] It's still in history books.

[1915] It's still something everyone should know about.

[1916] But when you're using it in a colloquial way, mapping it onto something that has nothing to do with, minimizing it.

[1917] So you think that by using that word and it being, it minimizing that event, that when people hear that human beings were traded like, livestock that that doesn't have the same power anymore that it's been minimized that we don't think it's horrific well i don't think that's the outcome and i would argue whoever said this that that's the outcome i'd really need them to walk me through that because i don't think there's anybody in this country who thinks that that's not a big deal to say that because sold down the river has its historical roots in selling slaves, that doesn't make it racist.

[1918] It doesn't make it anything.

[1919] It just means all you've done is figured out the etymology of it.

[1920] So congratulations.

[1921] But until someone adds a new layer to explains to me how that's hurtful.

[1922] Yeah, we just have different opinions.

[1923] But we could invite that gal on here and she could tell me why I shouldn't say it.

[1924] Mm -hmm.

[1925] Okay, Nora.

[1926] Her dad, Ravis Shankar.

[1927] Her sweet poppy.

[1928] Mm -hmm.

[1929] In June, 1966, while still a member of the Beatles, George Harrison met Indian classical musician Ravi Shankar in London and became a student of the satirist.

[1930] Harrison later said that for himself, the music was like an excuse and that in reality he was searching for a spiritual connection with the culture of India.

[1931] The association immediately brought Shankar and Indian music unprecedented population.

[1932] in the West, while Harrison's introduction of the sitar into the Beatles sound inspired a new genre known as Raga rock, maybe.

[1933] Anyway, because you said, was he the gateway for why the Beatles went to India?

[1934] Sounds like he had something to do with it.

[1935] Such a different style, like rocking out on the sitar versus a guitar.

[1936] Definitely.

[1937] Because my vision of it, my stereotype image in my head is someone sitting cross -legged strumming that thing.

[1938] I feel like that's how I've largely seen the sitar being played.

[1939] Uh -huh.

[1940] I've never seen anyone like spinning around, you know, jumping off of a Marshall Stack amplifier.

[1941] Sure.

[1942] Could happen, though.

[1943] Sure.

[1944] I don't know.

[1945] I don't know how unwieldy it is.

[1946] How old was he when he had Nora?

[1947] She said she thought 59.

[1948] He was 58, but then turned 59 pretty much immediately the next month.

[1949] That's pretty old.

[1950] So old.

[1951] That means in 14, 15 years I could have a Nora Jones as a baby.

[1952] I know.

[1953] Should I?

[1954] Sure.

[1955] You could get a little reverse V. Yeah, a little RV.

[1956] Mm -hmm.

[1957] A little recreational vehicle.

[1958] So interesting that her life and her relationship with him.

[1959] Yeah.

[1960] I wonder.

[1961] So he died when he was 92.

[1962] So how old was she?

[1963] Oh, so it's another 16 years.

[1964] So that's 24, 34.

[1965] So she already had success.

[1966] So he got to see that.

[1967] That's fun.

[1968] I hope he.

[1969] Huge success.

[1970] success too huge yeah one of the biggest selling in the era where people just weren't buying CDs she still was selling millions and millions of CDs well people were buying CDs then right uh no well as I recall that 60 minutes I watched for they made a big point out of how how diminished the record sales had been over the last 10 years and that she was like a anomaly and that still a ton of copies hard copies oh because that was 2002 that that first album came out, which was, I guess, yeah, by then.

[1971] Well, Napster was already a thing.

[1972] Napster, yeah.

[1973] People were file sharing already.

[1974] That's true.

[1975] Yeah.

[1976] You could buy things on, I don't know if iTunes was out yet, but.

[1977] Well, yeah, it was still like, because I remember, 2002, I would have been in high school.

[1978] Yeah, I would have been 25, 26.

[1979] No, I would have been a freshman, I think.

[1980] And we were, we were making, like, mixed CDs.

[1981] at that time, with Napster and stuff, but still CDs and still CD players and stuff.

[1982] Right, because your car stereo at that point didn't have Bluetooth or any way to play an MP3.

[1983] So you had to get it onto something tangible.

[1984] Yeah.

[1985] That nice compact disc.

[1986] And I always would buy her CDs as soon as they came out.

[1987] Oh, you would?

[1988] And then you'd start burning and burning and making mixes.

[1989] I never had that ability.

[1990] I'd have to get friends to do it.

[1991] Oh, I had one of those dual CD players where you could make mixed CD.

[1992] Very complicated, as I recall.

[1993] Yeah.

[1994] But what a pleasure to be able to make a mixed CD.

[1995] Yeah, the people in my school who could do it, it was like a big deal, and you had to request and you had to make your list of songs.

[1996] Did they charge?

[1997] Was it like a $20 deal?

[1998] I don't remember paying.

[1999] Because those blanks weren't free.

[2000] That's true.

[2001] Oh.

[2002] They could have made some real money.

[2003] Maybe they did.

[2004] I don't remember.

[2005] Oh, how tall is Marie Kondo?

[2006] I said she was two inches tall.

[2007] Did that hold up?

[2008] Not quite.

[2009] According to Newsweek, it's 4 '7.

[2010] Oh, that's cute.

[2011] Which makes sense.

[2012] I mean, I have seen her, and she was so much shorter than me. Yeah, five and a half inches shorter.

[2013] Yeah.

[2014] Wow.

[2015] I know.

[2016] That's a big leap.

[2017] She's so cute.

[2018] Is she?

[2019] Ugh.

[2020] Yeah.

[2021] You have a crush on her?

[2022] Yeah.

[2023] She's adorable.

[2024] I can't help as a pervert to wonder what it's like to make love to someone that small.

[2025] Oh, God.

[2026] You know, be more delicate, I guess.

[2027] Do you think, what if she has thick skin?

[2028] Oh, this is pachydermis?

[2029] Yeah, yeah.

[2030] Vaginous peccadermis.

[2031] Countering too.

[2032] Incongruous.

[2033] Counter and two.

[2034] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2035] Sex tinge.

[2036] No, I bet she has most delicate, thin.

[2037] skin.

[2038] You've seen that amazing photo of Shaq and his girlfriend, right?

[2039] Oh, yes.

[2040] Oh, my God.

[2041] I mean, I want to, not even for sexual reasons.

[2042] No, I know.

[2043] Just curiosity.

[2044] I want to watch them make love so bad.

[2045] Shack, if you're a listener, just please invite me in so I can just watch what's going on ergonomically.

[2046] I know.

[2047] Are all the positions open to them?

[2048] Are there ladders involved?

[2049] Is there like elevated beds?

[2050] I doubt they could do all the positions.

[2051] No. Well, certainly.

[2052] Doggy.

[2053] Doggy style is going to require, you're right, they can't, 69.

[2054] Doggy style is going to require some kind of a little stool or platform for her, even if he's on his knees.

[2055] You know, if he's on his knees on the bed, she's going to need a platform.

[2056] Well, maybe he could be on his knees on the floor.

[2057] Okay.

[2058] And then she's on the bed.

[2059] Okay.

[2060] And then that event, maybe they have kind of a low slung bed.

[2061] Right.

[2062] Because of normal height bed plus her on her knees.

[2063] I don't think he's that tall, is he?

[2064] I've told you my story about him picking me up like a baby, right?

[2065] I'll never forget that.

[2066] I've never had that feeling as an adult.

[2067] First time I ever met him, I was walking to a premiere in Westwood, and I was behind him.

[2068] And I jokingly said, like, get the fuck out of the way, little guy or something.

[2069] Oh, wow.

[2070] And really testing whether or not he might know me. And then he turned around and he started laughing.

[2071] And then he grabbed me by my humorous by both sides of my arms and lifted me like you lift a child up when you're looking at a child.

[2072] Right.

[2073] And I just got scooped up into the air.

[2074] And I was looking down at my daddy's shack.

[2075] And I was thinking, man, I'm 200 pounds.

[2076] And he just did a fucking deltoid straight -armed lift.

[2077] This guy is so strong.

[2078] Wow.

[2079] I was having so many emotions.

[2080] Gratitude, he didn't kill me that he knew me. Going back to myself as a baby.

[2081] You know, excited to see the movie we were all going.

[2082] So everything was firing.

[2083] I would have loved it if he would have let me sit on his lap the whole movie and cradled me. I think that if he had lifted me up, He would have used too much force and I would have gone flying out.

[2084] I think you're right.

[2085] Yeah.

[2086] I think he would have to have a good firm hold on your humorous is humor eye so that you didn't fly up in the sky.

[2087] Yeah.

[2088] I'd love to see him throw you into a pool.

[2089] I'd be scared.

[2090] But you don't think your training would take over?

[2091] No. Your muscle memory?

[2092] You would just stabilize yourself in the air and.

[2093] That's not what happens.

[2094] I've told you this many times that you don't balance.

[2095] yourself that's the whole point that's the trick okay okay all right so i want to warn you you might have to tell me that again oh god fine because of my thin skin i'm very triggered by that by not you but like my mom picking you up no no no having to repeat oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i'd say that checks out Anywho, I love to get to repeat myself.

[2096] I mean, that's all I am as a broken record of these fucking dumb stories I tell nonstop.

[2097] So, like, if you've forgotten something about auto racing, I can't wait to tell you again how you enter a turn and hit the apex.

[2098] I'd love to tell you every day for the rest of your life.

[2099] I know.

[2100] We're just different.

[2101] Yeah.

[2102] We are, as we found out with that.

[2103] What?

[2104] Sell you down the river.

[2105] Oh, yeah.

[2106] I don't know why you brought that back up.

[2107] That was a horrible.

[2108] Okay, she talks about how she wanted to take piano lessons and then her mom bought her a piano and then she immediately wanted to quit.

[2109] This happened to me, but then I did quit and I'm so upset.

[2110] And I wish my mom made me take lessons for five years.

[2111] There is no making you do anything.

[2112] My mom is so bad at being my mom.

[2113] You are impossible to make do something that you don't want to do.

[2114] Get real.

[2115] That's not true.

[2116] You don't even succumb to peer pressure?

[2117] Do you think you're going to succumb to parental pressure?

[2118] Well, not parental, but I definitely, oh, this succumbed.

[2119] Oh, saccame?

[2120] Another, no, see, another fact is that you said, what's the past tense of succumb?

[2121] You said, sacame, and then you said, I don't think you can do past tense, but the past tense is succumbed.

[2122] Ew, I don't like it.

[2123] I do.

[2124] succumbed.

[2125] I like it a lot.

[2126] So I succumbed, I would not succumb to parental pressure, ever.

[2127] right or peer but i really was a big rule follower so if i knew that my piano teacher was gonna require me to practice 30 minutes a day i had to do that right so i did do that i just hated it but i assume you quit your mom didn't pull the plug on this right you go no i'm not doing this anymore right yeah yeah so what do you wish your mother had done i wish she said, I wish she wouldn't have let me do that.

[2128] And said, you have to do it for five more years.

[2129] But do you really think she could have done that?

[2130] Yeah.

[2131] I don't think so.

[2132] I don't think you were listening to her in that way.

[2133] No, I was.

[2134] I think my mom, see, this is so embarrassing.

[2135] So I had a piano recital that went horribly awry.

[2136] Go on.

[2137] It was so embarrassing.

[2138] I had a mushroom cut hair cut and a horrible dress, also purchased by my mom.

[2139] And my whole family came.

[2140] My best friend Julia came, and I just was in front of all these people and I was playing and I messed up and then I just sat there as a frozen statue for a long time.

[2141] Okay.

[2142] No one came on stage to give you a hug.

[2143] Eventually, my teacher came.

[2144] Okay.

[2145] And was like helping me. Played it for you.

[2146] You played it for me. Basically puppeted my hands.

[2147] Okay.

[2148] And then I completed it.

[2149] And then that was that.

[2150] And it was horribly embarrassing for me and my family.

[2151] Monica?

[2152] Yeah.

[2153] We've had a breakthrough here today.

[2154] Why?

[2155] I've never heard that story.

[2156] Oh, really?

[2157] Well, I don't repeat stories.

[2158] You shit the proverbial bed.

[2159] Now, big time.

[2160] I'm adding to my list of destinations in my time machine.

[2161] So as you know, I'm going back.

[2162] I'm sleeping with your grandma.

[2163] Okay.

[2164] Then I'm going to bounce over to Oregon, sleep with Ma 'an, Sheila.

[2165] Sure.

[2166] And then I'm going to bounce over to that recital.

[2167] No. And I'm going to be there in one second to give that little mushroom haircut of hug.

[2168] No. Yeah.

[2169] I wouldn't have wanted it.

[2170] I bet you'd look so cute with your mushroom haircut and your bad dress.

[2171] No. Then I would have made a joke to cut the tension.

[2172] And then we would have went out and got ice cream, but not a dairy queen.

[2173] Couldn't have gone to dairy queen.

[2174] No, no. Somewhere else.

[2175] That would have really been fuel to the fire.

[2176] Some place associated with wasps.

[2177] I don't know what that is.

[2178] Baskin's 31 flavors or something.

[2179] I love Baskin.

[2180] I'm sorry that happened.

[2181] It's okay.

[2182] It's my fault.

[2183] It should have gone on forham .com.

[2184] I wasn't prepared.

[2185] Oh, I should have.

[2186] Yeah.

[2187] I didn't know.

[2188] That would have been horrible.

[2189] My hair was already too thick and mushroomy.

[2190] No, we would get you the beta blockers, not the restorative hair treatments or the erectile dysfunction medication.

[2191] Well, go ahead and use that too.

[2192] Just see where it takes you.

[2193] Yeah, it was bad.

[2194] And so was that the last day you ever played the piano?

[2195] Probably.

[2196] I don't remember.

[2197] I think at that point, my parents were probably fine with me quitting because they didn't want to sit through any more horrible recitals after that.

[2198] Anyhow, I don't know why we're talking about my mushroom cut.

[2199] I want to see some pictures of that.

[2200] Well, there's a picture in my parents' foyer.

[2201] Like one of the only group family photos we have is of that day.

[2202] I think after.

[2203] Oh, boy.

[2204] That should have taken one before probably.

[2205] probably interlocking uh inner lock in is in michigan it's an arts camp it's also an arts boarding school so there you could go there for boarding school i think our friend rory did that oh yeah and people love it okay you said you didn't know if my space was out when you when you like started and when and around the same time she released her first out So MySpace was founded in August of 2003.

[2206] Her first album came out in 2002 and punked premiered in 2003.

[2207] Oh.

[2208] Okay.

[2209] So it was all around the same time.

[2210] Wow.

[2211] We were both having our moments.

[2212] Mm -hmm.

[2213] Yeah.

[2214] Okay.

[2215] Have we talked about us?

[2216] Have we talked about how pretty she was?

[2217] I have, I mean, you keep referring to gruny.

[2218] In a cheerleading capacity.

[2219] Okay.

[2220] And you mean, I know we've had this conversation, but you mean bloomer's.

[2221] They're called bloomers.

[2222] In Michigan, they were called Grundies.

[2223] Are you sure?

[2224] Yeah.

[2225] Let me look up the word grundies on the.

[2226] Okay.

[2227] Well, grundles is the area between the anus and scrotum and a male and between the anus and vulva and a woman.

[2228] That's a grundle.

[2229] Right.

[2230] Also, the area of fabric is called a gusset.

[2231] Okay.

[2232] Okay.

[2233] Let me just look up grundies.

[2234] We called them spankies.

[2235] You did?

[2236] I think that's one too.

[2237] In the Midwest.

[2238] Spankies.

[2239] For bloomers.

[2240] Like what you wear under the skirts?

[2241] Okay, grundies.

[2242] As grundies, an underwear brand name, possibly in abbreviated form of reg grundies.

[2243] So I shrugged and shifted like my grundies were too tight.

[2244] So grundies is the.

[2245] a brand of underwear that then became oh it's in the oxford dictionary origin 1990s from undies influenced by the name reg grundy an australian media producer huh okay he had his trousers and his grundies round his ankles but also so they're just saying undies yeah so much so whatever in my high school they did the girls definitely called those grundies but you know what can i do about that i guess I'll need one of those people to come on.

[2246] Sassie Feld.

[2247] Talk to me about it.

[2248] We can call Sassie.

[2249] Sassie was a cheerleader?

[2250] She was in Pompom, which was the cool thing to be in, because they dance like fly girls.

[2251] But did they wear skirts?

[2252] I think on occasion.

[2253] I don't know.

[2254] I don't know anything about this topic.

[2255] And I know everything about it.

[2256] So I do have to just say that.

[2257] Okay.

[2258] Last thing real quick.

[2259] Yeah.

[2260] You were talking about Eternal Sunshine and.

[2261] And, you know, do the people really know you or do they not know you post in pre -fame?

[2262] And I was just telling you a story about a friend of mine who revealed a piece of information about me that made me feel like, wow, he really knows me. Anthony.

[2263] Yeah, my friend Anthony.

[2264] It was sort of a throwaway.

[2265] But it felt.

[2266] But it felt really nice to feel like, oh, my God, there are people in this.

[2267] world who really know me. Yeah.

[2268] It really felt good.

[2269] Yeah, I've never, like, dedicated enough time to actually pinpointing what precisely I mean by that.

[2270] I mean, part of it for me has a lot to do with the 10 years of struggle in the one -bedroom apartment.

[2271] Of course.

[2272] I know exactly what you mean by it.

[2273] Oh, okay, yeah.

[2274] Like, if I could win you over then, I had nothing to offer.

[2275] Like, I couldn't get you on TV.

[2276] I couldn't buy you dinner.

[2277] I couldn't do anything.

[2278] If anything, you were going to have to buy me. dinner.

[2279] But even, I mean, I don't even know if this is necessarily relegated to fame.

[2280] Because sometimes I feel like that, like, oh, whoever I end up with is not going to like know who I was when I was in college or when I was before then.

[2281] I was kind of a different person that I like.

[2282] Like things about that person I like and I don't really have anymore.

[2283] Right.

[2284] Some of those qualities.

[2285] So that's kind of a bummer.

[2286] Yeah.

[2287] I don't.

[2288] just think everyone has some evolution that happens parts of your personality get sort of discarded along the way or they can and so some people may never see those elements of it well there is that and then there's also the added like um guilt of like oh brie earned this ride what do you mean like brie was with me through all the hard stuff stuff.

[2289] Right.

[2290] And was by my side and helped me feel safe.

[2291] Yeah.

[2292] Split the rent with me. Yeah.

[2293] And if anyone on earth deserves to be a recipient of my now good fortune, it would be her.

[2294] Yeah, but I don't think anyone's thinking of partnership like that.

[2295] Like, I don't think she's thinking like, I'm going to stick this out until he becomes the person I want him to become.

[2296] No. For sure.

[2297] You already are that person.

[2298] You were that person or she wouldn't have been with you.

[2299] that's very true i just think when i was newly single i had two thoughts of just like oh this is so weird someone's going to meet me now as a success because in my mind i've been not a success for the majority of my life yeah and then on top of that oh man the person that deserves any of this good stuff is her yeah i see what you're saying you know what i'm saying i do i do i just think that she probably believes she got all the good stuff i think you're right yeah i don't think she gives a shit Yeah.

[2300] She's doing plenty fine about me. Yeah.

[2301] I know.

[2302] That's not what you're saying.

[2303] Yeah.

[2304] But it just, those things crossed my mind when I watch Eternal Sunshine.

[2305] Yeah.

[2306] And I was single.

[2307] Yeah.

[2308] Now I don't think about it all that much.

[2309] Right.

[2310] Yeah.

[2311] Makes sense.

[2312] But even that then happened within Kristen and I. So it's fine.

[2313] A ton has still happened in my life.

[2314] She still knew an earlier version of me. It's all fine.

[2315] Yeah.

[2316] Yeah.

[2317] That's all.

[2318] I love you.

[2319] Love you.

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