Tracy Dennis-Tiwary (anxiety researcher & author)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

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[27] Okay, well, today we have another expert, not resident or in -house, but Tracy Dennis Tuari.

[28] She is an anxiety researcher and author and founder of Wise Therapeutics.

[29] Now, I've been referencing her pretty frequently since we interviewed her.

[30] In fact, I don't think any guess has avoided me bringing her up and trying to explain her book.

[31] And her book is called Future Tense, Why Anxiety is Good for You.

[32] you, even though it feels bad.

[33] This is an awesome, potentially very empowering episode to hear for anyone who struggles with anxiety.

[34] I agree.

[35] Please enjoy Tracy Deenis Tiwere.

[36] Look, we lost him again.

[37] Got it.

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[41] podcasts.

[42] First of all, welcome.

[43] Thank you.

[44] So I was listening to an interview with you today, and then I sent these to a snippet of you in your interview because you used the expression messiness of being human, which is our tagline.

[45] It was.

[46] Wait, it is?

[47] Yes, it has been for four years.

[48] Oh, in the description.

[49] In the description.

[50] Yeah, celebrating the messiness of being human.

[51] But then we started getting really self -conscious about that.

[52] We just got scared.

[53] So then we put it out to our listeners to find a new tiebine.

[54] We found a new one.

[55] But now I forget what it is.

[56] It's probably not as good if you can't remember it.

[57] Welcome, welcome.

[58] This resonates with me because I'm really grateful to have this conversation.

[59] I think I've been very careful in many of the conversations I've had.

[60] Because when you're talking about mental health, when you're talking about suffering, like anxiety, people speak up and they say, hey, how can you say anxiety is good for you?

[61] How can you gaslight me like that?

[62] You don't know the version I have.

[63] Right.

[64] And it's true, I don't.

[65] But I've also devoted 20 years to trying to help remediate anxiety disorders and end the suffering.

[66] But I found myself apologizing for what I was saying.

[67] And I'm sort of done apologizing, you know?

[68] What I'm trying to say, I think, is more radical than something I should apologize for.

[69] I think in my own mind distilled it to is people personalize every single thing they hear.

[70] So they're assuming that what you just said was about them.

[71] It's like almost a sense of narcissism.

[72] this happens all the time in films it's like there's a film celebrating someone who's plus size for lack of a better word well amy we talked to her about it schumer thinks oh this is great this will be body positive and then immediately it's you're crazy real issues are at this weight and above and it's like i can't make a movie for every single version of this i can make the movie that i know but this one's not about you it's about me and my version of it if i hear someone talking about an addict or addiction you're not talking to dax i can recognize that it's your take on whatever, and you might be speaking very broadly.

[73] Is that gotten worse, too, do you think, over the past 15 years because of how we are in these bubbles of social media and everyone's voice is amplified?

[74] It's hard to know, right?

[75] One thought I have is we simply hear from everyone now.

[76] You would have gone on NPR.

[77] You would have done a thing, and God knows how that was received.

[78] Other than if you bumped into people at a party, they were probably like -minded in our NPR listeners, whatever the case is.

[79] You're not going to hear, as I always say, from the guy in front of 7 -Eleven with a parrot on his shoulder.

[80] You know, there's a lot of crazy people with parrots on their shoulders, and they have access to your ears and eyes.

[81] But if we engage in, especially social media in that way, all of a sudden we feel this responsibility.

[82] Well, this weirdly and perfectly ties into the topic at hand because one of my first thoughts about this book, when I think of anxiety, I think of how outmoded our design is for how we live.

[83] And I was thinking of a normal human got up and they took a motorcycle ride on a canyon road, then they went to a buffet, then they consumed an hour of world news, and then they watched an action movie at the end of the day.

[84] Quantifiably, you could argue that would be more stimulation, more tragedy, more food variety.

[85] And one day than in hunting gathering, human would have experienced in a lifetime.

[86] There is some miraculous fact that we live in a world we're not necessarily designed to, and I want your two cents on that thought.

[87] Yeah, and that's part of this whole story we tell about anxiety, that it's this evolutionary, vestigial organ almost, that it was great for us when we face the Sabretooth Tiger.

[88] It prepared us to fight or flight, freeze sometimes.

[89] And now it's just so outmoded that it just stresses us out.

[90] And it's a burden to us.

[91] And it really hits us in terms of health.

[92] But I think that actually reflects a deep misunderstanding of how the miraculous human brain can recruit these things we've evolved to have to respond to whatever's happening in our life and how that changes over generations and time.

[93] So anxiety is not fight in flight alone.

[94] It feels like fear.

[95] That's something I try to really say, okay, Yeah, we all know what anxiety feels like in the sense that our heart's racing, the butterflies in the stomach.

[96] But when we reduce it only to the fight -flight fear kind of response, then we're actually missing why it really evolved, I think, from all the evolutionary theory and data, starting with Darwin, really talking about anxiety.

[97] It's that it evolved to help us manage uncertainty.

[98] If I was forced to define it, I would say fear is something that happens in the present moment.

[99] And then anxiety is something that occurs when you're modeling out the future.

[100] Exactly.

[101] You're here to talk about why anxiety is good for you, even though it feels bad.

[102] So we're trying to rebrand anxiety.

[103] It's a big PR problem.

[104] Yes, yes.

[105] So I'm in favor of that.

[106] And then also I'm in favor of right -sizing anxiety.

[107] So what I'm fascinated by is that I've walked through at this point in 47 years all the things.

[108] I've walked through a couple of parents dying, being there by their size.

[109] I've walked through addiction.

[110] I've walked through gnarly car accidents, surgeries.

[111] The real -time experience of all those things was never that bad.

[112] In truth.

[113] But my fear of them, my anxiety, when I model those, is just really inaccurate.

[114] I definitely think I will be much more miserable than I find that I ever am when dealing with something real time.

[115] We can only feel anxious when we can model the future.

[116] So it's these simulation machines, our prefrontal cord disease.

[117] The fact that we can plan, imagine an exquisite detail what can happen around the bend.

[118] But the thing about anxiety that we've misunderstood is that we assume it's only modeling the bad stuff.

[119] But what anxiety actually allows us to do is to hold in mind at the same time the possibly good outcome or the possibly bad outcome.

[120] So if you're anxious about that job interview you have tomorrow, you're not anxious because you think you're necessarily going to vomit.

[121] You're anxious because you might vomit, but you might crush it.

[122] If you really thought only and held in mind only that you would fail, you would feel despair.

[123] And so you have to have hope to be anxious.

[124] You have to believe that the good outcome is possible and you have to be in it to win it still.

[125] You have to believe that you can do something about the future.

[126] That's a good point, because if you were just surrendered to failure, you probably wouldn't think much about it.

[127] So if you accept that premise that anxiety is this ability to hold your dreams and your fears about the future in mind at the same time, then it has to help us prepare to avert disaster and make our dreams come true.

[128] That's what it evolved to do.

[129] We think it evolved to make us feel terrible about everything that's coming around the bend.

[130] And when you actually dig in a little deeper to things like the biology of anxiety, questions that you don't even think to ask if you assume, that it's all fight and flight, you start to say, oh, wait a second, when I'm anxious oxytocin, the social bonding hormone increases, which primes me to seek out social connection.

[131] Evolutionarily speaking, because I know this from your book, it is largely geared or driven by our need and desire for social connection, because social connection is life or death in the early times.

[132] If you don't have a clan, you're dead.

[133] So maintaining social bonds, I would imagine modeling out if I do this behavior, X, Y, or Z could happen.

[134] Is that the primary?

[135] It is definitely a primary.

[136] It's also this idea that because we're social creatures, we have learned that we can outsource our emotional, social, physical needs to the tribe.

[137] So there's this great experiment, for example, that came out of University of Wisconsin a number of years ago.

[138] You might have read about it.

[139] It was the handholding study.

[140] So they put people in the magnet to image their brain.

[141] And then they threaten them with shocks.

[142] Like, okay, you're going to be here in this claustrophobic tunnel.

[143] If you've ever had an MRI, it's really unpleasant.

[144] They're so quiet, though.

[145] So your head's about to explode.

[146] And then they say, and by the way, when you don't expect it, we're going to shock you.

[147] And it's going to be uncomfortable.

[148] But they had these three conditions.

[149] They were imaging the fear and anxiety circuits in the brain, and they were just looking at activity of the brain while this was happening.

[150] In the three conditions, some people were alone.

[151] Some people held the hand of a stranger.

[152] And some people held the hand of a loved one.

[153] And what you see is that the people who held the hand of the loved one, their brains, which were actively working to manage this threat.

[154] Right.

[155] So we're doing all these things.

[156] We're trying to regulate emotions.

[157] were anticipating, the brains lighting up.

[158] Their brains were less active because we have this social baseline and they outsourced.

[159] We outsourced all that work to this strong social connection that allowed us to handle this.

[160] So we didn't have to work as hard, which means less metabolic demands, which means greater likelihood of survival.

[161] Okay, can I take this really dark?

[162] Yeah.

[163] Okay.

[164] You have a family?

[165] I do.

[166] I have two kids and a husband and a dog.

[167] Two kids, a husband, or a dog.

[168] So I have drastically different sensations on airplanes when I think we might die.

[169] I think most people will consider that possible.

[170] while you're in air and there's turbulence.

[171] When I'm by myself, there's one feeling about it.

[172] Of course, it's, oh, my God, my daughters won't have a dad.

[173] I got to make it through this.

[174] When we're all on a plane and shit's hitting the fan, I literally think, well, great, we'll all go down together.

[175] This is awesome.

[176] We had a great ride together and we'll all end it together.

[177] I have a bizarre piece about it when we're all together.

[178] I'd feel exactly the same.

[179] Yeah, I wonder if that's the same thing as the handholding.

[180] Okay, well, I'm with you and some bad shit can happen, but I'm with you and that's all I really, that's my primary.

[181] It's the frame you put on it.

[182] It's about your value.

[183] is because anxiety tells you what you care about and what you care about is your family.

[184] Because you only are anxious when you care.

[185] You're not anxious about stuff you don't care about.

[186] When you interviewed Dan Pink, which was a great interview, he said something along the lines of regret is one of the most clarifying and important and common of the emotions.

[187] And I was thinking, yeah, second to anxiety.

[188] Because anxiety completely clarifies for you what you care about in the world.

[189] And like regret, it's unpleasant.

[190] It forces you to sit up and pay attention.

[191] You cannot ignore it.

[192] I mean, you can.

[193] like a smoke alarm going off.

[194] I'm right at that.

[195] Right, but you should probably like check the batteries at least and maybe see if there's a fire in the house somewhere.

[196] I had a ton of anxiety for a long time.

[197] And now I know what it feels like in my body so I know if it's starting to come back or waning.

[198] But for me, anxiety didn't present itself like, okay, I have this upcoming thing and I feel anxious.

[199] It was just this generalized feeling I had in my body.

[200] Like a free floating.

[201] Yeah, I mean, it really presented itself very brain to.

[202] I was disoriented.

[203] It would come in waves.

[204] I really thought something was physically wrong.

[205] But it was weird because when the doctors would be like, I think it's just anxiety.

[206] I'd be like, no, there's nothing that I'm anxious about.

[207] Yeah, other than just life, I guess.

[208] Some people are maybe more likely to be anxious in general.

[209] Anxiety sucks.

[210] There's no question about that.

[211] It feels terrible.

[212] I would never suggest to someone, okay, just white knuckle it through.

[213] And I don't know if you went to someone to talk to what their response was.

[214] She's a great chiropractor.

[215] Exactly.

[216] They're like really cracked your back really well.

[217] That fixes Muslims.

[218] But if the answer was, which it is for so many of us, well, we better fix that.

[219] Let's just make it go away.

[220] That's this sort of disease model of anxiety.

[221] Tom Insel just wrote a book, who was the former head of the NIH.

[222] And he as a psychiatrist said, you know, we've gotten mental health and illness wrong.

[223] And he said this whole infectious disease model that you just medicate it and make it go away does not work for mental health.

[224] He just said it.

[225] How dare he in this era?

[226] Right.

[227] He's like, that's not the model.

[228] And that's really 10 times true for anxiety because if you just made that anxiety go away, you will not know what it was about.

[229] And listen, sometimes it could be free floating.

[230] It might not be anchored to anything.

[231] But most of the time, it's a call to listen rather than a call to evade.

[232] We think it's a call to panic when we feel that way.

[233] But really, it evolved to be a call to listen and to at least consider that maybe it's information.

[234] And I don't know what it is yet, but we can be curious about it.

[235] Yeah.

[236] Okay.

[237] And now I'm going to step in as your medical physician.

[238] This doctor.

[239] My timeline of it, and tell me if I'm right or wrong, it apexed post -college pre -this show.

[240] I had two major spells.

[241] One was after a traumatic event in my family.

[242] And then one was before I started working.

[243] The sole cycle period.

[244] Yeah.

[245] So at that time, yeah, I would imagine you were like, there's nothing a month away, two months away, three months away.

[246] But I know you as an overachiever who is great when you lay.

[247] out the blueprint how do you get A's how do you do a back tuck how do you get into this college how do you pass those classes now I'm in a sea of I want to be a successful actor what's next how do I get there I mean they're really I would imagine I certainly had it is this overwhelming sense of fuck I don't know how to do this I don't know what the roadmap is yeah I'm directionless and just fear of not being able to find your way to I think that's right.

[248] So I would argue there was probably something your body was telling you, mind you, it's a very hard one to confront.

[249] Again, I cannot speak to an individual's experience, but there's an argument to be made that you feeling that actually primed you to do something about that bad feeling.

[250] Because there's nothing more rewarding than making anxiety go away.

[251] And when we take action, especially that's purposeful, because anxiety is about something we care about.

[252] And if it was your future, if it was, I don't know what's next.

[253] I don't like that.

[254] I want to do something with my life.

[255] It might have actually spurred you on to do things.

[256] that ended up being amazing for you.

[257] But we have to actually accept anxiety as not a dysfunction, but as part of that journey if we're really going to leverage it in that way, because if you just made it go away, if you just suppressed it or decided that something was wrong with you.

[258] If you could have gotten yourself into like a comatose state in that period, who knows if we're sitting here?

[259] Yeah, I mean, I do think after the first time, which was a direct response, a fear response, I think.

[260] It was still what's going to happen in the future, but I had no control over it.

[261] So it was anxiety that I couldn't be like, okay, so I'll make this choice.

[262] No, you don't always have choice, but there's always some choice.

[263] Because sometimes the choice also is to know, I've listened to what it's telling me, maybe it's not useful right now, and I need to do some self -care.

[264] When my son was going to be born with a heart condition, we knew in the middle of my pregnancy that he would be born and need open heart surgery as an infant.

[265] If you don't get that, and it doesn't go well, it's a death sentence.

[266] I mean, when I tell you that anxiety was my constant companion from the time I was 20 weeks pregnant.

[267] But it was the absolute key to my being able to survive that period and not fall prey to despair because it's this activating emotion.

[268] We think of it as choking and stopping us, but a lot of the time, it's actually this wave of energy and energy has to go someplace.

[269] And if you can swim it, if you can surf it, it can take you forward.

[270] So we found the best doctors we could.

[271] You know, I'm a scientist.

[272] So I cried for about half an hour.

[273] Then I got into PubMed.

[274] I started to figure out everything I could.

[275] Is that like WebMD?

[276] It's like the scientific papers.

[277] repository of all the scientific papers, so I read everything about this.

[278] Wait, what's it called?

[279] We talk about this all time, like, where the fuck are all these journals being published?

[280] Why aren't they on the internet?

[281] Why aren't they readily available?

[282] Well, now Google Scholar is a good place to get a lot of this.

[283] Oh, Google.

[284] This will be good for my fact -checking.

[285] I need some new.

[286] Oh, yeah.

[287] You can get good access to actual scientific papers.

[288] Oh, Google, what was it?

[289] Google Scholar.

[290] Google.

[291] Google.

[292] I hate to be an advertiser for Google, but there does.

[293] They were once a sponsor of ours, so we'll give them from.

[294] Yeah.

[295] I think they figured out everyone already used Google, so why advertised?

[296] I did my research, you know, it was action.

[297] He was born okay, and then a month he went into heart failure.

[298] Then he was failure to thrive.

[299] Then we had to feed him through a tube for a month.

[300] You know, it was this journey, but at the end.

[301] But at the Swiss out.

[302] Oh, I was telling Monica.

[303] At 13?

[304] Everyone I know is in Europe except me, including my son.

[305] Yeah, you're not going to like this.

[306] I go on Sunday.

[307] That's how it started.

[308] My friend, Kim and Rob, I'm staying with in Sherman Oaks.

[309] They're in Europe too.

[310] And see this New York Times article two days ago, it's like international travel is fucked because nearly every country is striking currently in the airlines because of inflation.

[311] They laid off all these people during COVID and now travels back bigger than it was in 2019.

[312] So it's understaffed.

[313] They're going on trips and then they never see their luggage.

[314] Talk about an anxiety.

[315] I read that two days ago and I sent it to the people we're going with.

[316] And I was like, well, this is comforting to read too.

[317] Well, exactly.

[318] Imagine you're stuck in Centropay like my friend Kim would be.

[319] I'm hoping.

[320] And you just go shopping and buy all the stuff.

[321] No, it's like anxiety, the negative and the positive.

[322] I went further.

[323] It's on a text chain.

[324] I said, well, God willing, we'll get marooned in a Biza and we won't have any clothes.

[325] Exactly.

[326] Now, that's using anxiety as a superpower right there.

[327] Okay, so we've already jumped into it, but I think there's a couple things that we should prime everyone with.

[328] One is that 100 million Americans will experience an anxiety disorder at some point in their life.

[329] With the current diagnosis of anxiety disorder, we could talk about the DSM for hours.

[330] It's one of my favorite topics.

[331] 10 million people are currently taking anxiety medication.

[332] That's a lot.

[333] Regularly?

[334] Right now there's...

[335] I'm sure that's under...

[336] Because people pop zanis like...

[337] Well, I got a whole thing about that as an addict.

[338] I think that's the huge crisis no one talks about is the benzoh epidemic.

[339] It's nearly as bad as the opioid epidemic.

[340] And I think they're twins.

[341] It doesn't have the fatality rate, but it might as well because...

[342] It is the third leading cause of death right after opioids.

[343] It is.

[344] Yes, it is.

[345] And it can do something even more cancerous, in my opinion.

[346] Because I've watched a lot of people go down the benzoh hole.

[347] You can just be rendered into a kind of dull zombie and live forever, which to me is, even worse.

[348] Anyways, I kind of want to go through in order, and your book does the perfect blueprint for walking through it.

[349] One thing I think we need to be clear about before we even talk about anxiety is what it is as far as it's a spectrum clearly.

[350] So let's just talk about the zero and the ten of anxiety so that we know what we're talking about.

[351] When we think of it as rather than a light switch on and off, but as a dimmer switch, you all of a sudden intuitively know, right?

[352] Because everyone feels butterflies in the stomach.

[353] Since you have girls, you might know my little pony.

[354] They call it nerve excited.

[355] My friend Mike Erica was an amazing musician.

[356] He and I were talking, and he said, yes, it's nerve excited.

[357] They have a name for it.

[358] So it has that positive and the negative.

[359] Sure.

[360] All the way to panic.

[361] And that's emotion.

[362] Can you just tell me, because I'm not fully aware, but I understand people have panic attacks.

[363] Everything gets crazy.

[364] Their heart rate goes up.

[365] Just feeling completely overwhelmed.

[366] What's DefCon one for people?

[367] Because I don't think I know anyone.

[368] There are people at home right now just absolutely in fight or flight with panic.

[369] With the panic, it's usually an attack.

[370] And it gets into this vicious cycle because, it also tends to go along with agoraphobia.

[371] So imagine you're walking along the street and out of the blue you start feeling a sense of dread.

[372] And then all of a sudden your heart's racing and you really don't know why.

[373] So it has this feeling of really coming out of the blue.

[374] And then you can't breathe.

[375] You feel what feels like fear, that full fight -flight mode and just this sense of doom and gloom and it's out of your control.

[376] So that adds to this.

[377] Well, am I right physiologically speaking that also once your heart rate and cortisol levels get to a certain level, your frontal lobe can't work.

[378] All your thinking shifts to midbrain survival.

[379] Your tools of arresting this now are compromised.

[380] But to say it doesn't work, this whole mental health industrial complex that we have fallen prey to, which I believe has become predatory, has convinced us that mental health is the absence of emotional discomfort or the absence of your brain working well.

[381] So when you say that, I just always love to give a little more nuance to it.

[382] You know what I'm referencing?

[383] There's this great book I read called On Killing, as these military experiments can be so effective because no one has a say -so in it.

[384] But they can just do these in crazy experience.

[385] Well, they found that in World War I, they were finding dead soldiers that had never shot their gun back in trench warfare.

[386] So the question was, why wouldn't someone shoot back if someone's running at them firing?

[387] Because submitting is actually 90 % of all animal.

[388] Confrontations resolve in one submitting, and that's it.

[389] So the human, what they concluded was that once their adrenaline got to a level and their heart rate got to 11, there's no frontal cortex saying, well, best case is to shoot back.

[390] That's not it.

[391] You're now in reptilian brain going, I want this loud noise to stop, so I'll submit.

[392] I'm going to put my head down and not do anything.

[393] And so they methodically train soldiers out of.

[394] And if you track unfired weapons all the way up to Vietnam, they pretty much got it because they moved all the training to be part of your midbrain.

[395] Did they learn to just tolerate higher levels of arousal?

[396] No, they started in their training, getting them to have muscle memory while elevating their so that it ended up getting filed into their midbrain.

[397] Because it was automatic.

[398] Yes.

[399] They train them into it being an automatic response as opposed to a thought response.

[400] So I guess that's what I'm saying about once you get to a point.

[401] Which also makes the point that you can practice at these things.

[402] Prefrontal cortex doesn't turn off.

[403] And I don't know about moving it to midbrain.

[404] But it's a great point because it shows that even amidst life -threatening panic, we can learn habits that by definition are automatic that allow us to leverage or manage and maybe even channel whatever's going on at that time.

[405] So even the language that we use to describe what happens when we're frozen by fear or anxiety completely underestimates what humans are capable of.

[406] And that's sort of my point.

[407] We are constantly like these comforting grandmothers telling people, it's okay.

[408] Oh, you feel anxiety?

[409] Let me help you do something about that immediately.

[410] No one says, wait a second, you're anxious.

[411] Okay, let's tune in a second.

[412] It's not a failure.

[413] It doesn't mean that you're going down this rabbit hole of mental illness.

[414] It's actually part of being human.

[415] Right.

[416] And maybe it's telling you something.

[417] And, you know, maybe it's not.

[418] Because life gets hard.

[419] We get into holes in our life, and we need help or practice or support.

[420] But just take a step back for a minute.

[421] There's this great study that I talk about in the book, Jameson and colleagues.

[422] It's out of Harvard, 2013.

[423] And they brought socially anxious people into the lab and had them do something that was kryptonite for them.

[424] So talk about going over to this kind of panic side of the spectrum.

[425] They had them give an impromptu public speech.

[426] Oh, yeah, that's scary.

[427] Right.

[428] And on some really hot -button topic, like the death penalty or abortion rate, you know.

[429] I digress I just literally you saw me pull myself back from that one but half of the people and again these are clinically anxious people with diagnoses half of these folks who have a fundamental fear of public humiliation and judgment and were about to be judged by people while they're giving these speeches they told them you know you're going to feel terrible your heart's going to race you're going to feel these feelings but this is not you getting ready to fail this is your body preparing to act this is your heart pumping blood and oxygen to your brain so that you can be at peak performance.

[430] You're about to win.

[431] And you just have to ride it a bit.

[432] Here's some evidence and here's evolutionary theory.

[433] So they were sort of educated for 15 minutes about this.

[434] The other half of the group were not told this.

[435] What happens?

[436] They give the speech and the folks who were told to think of...

[437] God, I love to see these speeches, by the way.

[438] I know.

[439] And they coded them, you know?

[440] They're scientists, so they're coding and they're saying.

[441] And they measured their heart rate and blood pressure during the speech.

[442] The ones that learn to think of anxiety as a potential ally that, yes, you have to negotiate with.

[443] They gave objectively better speech.

[444] had fewer ums, oz, ahs, they had lower heart rates and lower blood pressure so that their cardiovascular profile, it wasn't like they were flat, but they were how you look when you're ready to do your best, not when you're overwhelmed.

[445] And this was a 15 -minute intervention in clinically anxious people to reframe what they believed about their anxiety.

[446] And also set the correct expectation, because what you were saying at the beginning, it's not knowing which way it's going to go.

[447] If you go in being like, I am going to feel X, Y, and that's a given, but it means something good, then you already know what you're entering.

[448] It's not like, will my heart raise?

[449] It will.

[450] Right, which gives you more of a sense of control as you were talking about that.

[451] I was talking to someone about these ideas a little while back, and she said something so amazing.

[452] She said, I thought of myself all these years as someone's struggling with anxiety, but it never fit my personality, because she's really outgoing and dynamic.

[453] She said, I realize now I'm someone who struggles with hope.

[454] That's my struggle.

[455] And as soon as you think about it that way, how you cope with it, you start doing different things.

[456] I have to imagine so much of this is anchored in our own personal reward failure response of our history.

[457] So I think you can get lucky, right?

[458] So I know that feeling quite well.

[459] We do live shows.

[460] And I actually will become worried if I don't feel that heightened sense of I'm going to fail.

[461] Monica and I always sit on the wings and we're watching the band play.

[462] And sometimes as it's getting close to what I know is their last song and I don't feel any sense of mild panic, I will think I need that panic because I know on the other side of panic is as you said, really heightened cognitive ability.

[463] I will get in a zone It shows you care.

[464] Yeah, and part of it is failure though.

[465] It's recognizing oh man if I don't get to this zone I know I work best in I'm going to be a dot out there.

[466] Whatever it is, but I have this positive association with it because I got lucky at some point maybe the first time I was at the ground leans and the first time I walked on the stage I had it but I got a positive reward and so for me I do see it as fuel.

[467] I want to start talking to artists and performers because they get it, just as you're saying, they get how there's this double -edged sword to anxiety and that you don't need to relegate it to this area of malfunction and that you actually can elevate it to part of who you are and part of how you succeed.

[468] Now, you don't want to get addicted.

[469] People are concerned, oh, what if you feel addicted to anxiety or like you always need it?

[470] But, again, we don't trust ourselves.

[471] We don't trust ourselves to know the difference.

[472] I started life actually as a classical oboist.

[473] Okay.

[474] That's sexiest instrument in the world.

[475] I mean, come on.

[476] Yeah.

[477] It's a huge instrument to carry around the hallways, too, isn't it?

[478] No. So you're maybe thinking bassoon, a double -double -reed instrument.

[479] I spent the first third of my life training to be a classical musician.

[480] I went to the Eastman School of Music.

[481] I was like, I'm going to do this.

[482] Talk about anxiety -rich.

[483] Oh, yeah.

[484] And you're so uptight when you're a double -readist.

[485] I mean, we're just the famous, like, erotic.

[486] Or members of the York, everyone has their thing.

[487] And I understand how you have to master these difficult things in order to transcend them.

[488] How do you feel about propanol then?

[489] My wife's a singer.

[490] When she sings in public, she takes propanol.

[491] She's the biggest advocate of it.

[492] And she's like, I don't perform best when I have that level of tension around it.

[493] You have to know what works for you.

[494] The concern I have about meds, especially benzodiazepines, is that we use these very serious class of drugs in ways, not like beta blockers, but really in ways that they were never meant to be used.

[495] Yeah, I was just going to tell people, propanol is a beta blocker.

[496] It prevents your heart rate, really, from going up too high and there's no narcotic.

[497] Yeah.

[498] So I see that as a tool.

[499] And we know what our tools are.

[500] But if you don't become acquainted with your anxiety, if you don't welcome it in.

[501] Get to know it.

[502] You have to know it.

[503] You know, it wants you to listen.

[504] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[505] What's up, guys?

[506] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[507] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[508] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[509] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real, conversation, and I don't mean just friends, I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[510] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[511] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[512] We've all been there.

[513] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[514] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[515] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspectable.

[516] Expecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[517] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[518] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[519] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[520] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[521] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[522] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[523] I don't think this made it into the book.

[524] Oh, no, my editor made me cut it, actually.

[525] I had this whole story about as I was writing the book over the pandemic, and our hamster died.

[526] I felt really bereaved.

[527] And I think there were lots, so bereaved.

[528] Wow.

[529] Well, my daughter, my 10 -year -old, wanted a hamster.

[530] We got it.

[531] I knew it was going to end in.

[532] Oh, yeah.

[533] The life cycles, what, a couple weeks?

[534] Yeah, but also mama, you know, taking care.

[535] But I took on, you know, she was adorable.

[536] Sure.

[537] I'm an animal.

[538] Well, she's a hamster.

[539] We call cute things hamsters.

[540] And she got this little cough.

[541] Oh, no. I started realizing something.

[542] I did my Google, you know, on the ham.

[543] Actually, I do duck, I do duck, go.

[544] That's a thing?

[545] You're teaching us.

[546] Oh, my God.

[547] We're going to know how to use the Internet so well.

[548] What's that?

[549] It's privacy, respects your privacy.

[550] I'm not going to become part of the surveillance, you know what to be a hamster man you live?

[551] Anyway, she was my little responsibility of this little life.

[552] I didn't catch it soon enough.

[553] You can't find a vet who will see one because they're $20 in the pet store.

[554] But I, like, rushed her to the animal hospital.

[555] It's like, bring an aunt to the vet.

[556] Yeah.

[557] That's how they acted.

[558] But I got her, like, all the medication and having me subdermal electrolytes.

[559] But she passed, and I was so bereaved.

[560] And this is sort of the technology of consciousness, right?

[561] Emotions serve us.

[562] And it's like alchemy.

[563] And I realized I'd been totally deactivated There was clearly other stuff going on And I was like, I need a little anxiety to get me going again I need to remember I have this deadline looming I better snap into action And I used it in that way That felt like I could wield this tool Well I was immediately tempted to psychoanalyze you Please do What I can't imagine is that the life of the hamster Was so powerful As much as your identity as someone A nurture Who would nurture and be ahead of something And if you failed this thing then what else could you fail?

[564] 100%.

[565] You nailed that in one.

[566] I didn't even let myself go there.

[567] Whatever the case, I was observing these feelings.

[568] Yeah.

[569] I tried to deal with them.

[570] It wasn't working so well.

[571] Everything from talking to my sister, Katie, to having a little glass of wine.

[572] Sure, sure.

[573] And I got to say, if I have a buddy who calls me, he's like, oh, fuck, man, I can't even get out of bed today.

[574] What happened?

[575] Snipits died.

[576] That fucking rat you have?

[577] No, he's a hamster.

[578] Yeah.

[579] Okay.

[580] God bless your friends.

[581] You'd be like, that's a bummer.

[582] The minute you turn away, they're rolling.

[583] I'll drop another one off.

[584] It is funny, though, even when you don't care, I love animals now.

[585] Clearly.

[586] You radiate that.

[587] So our friend Laura, she had this disgusting fish.

[588] It was disgusting.

[589] It was a beta fish.

[590] Oh.

[591] And it was gray.

[592] Like, it was really awful looking.

[593] Scales fallen off?

[594] Scales were fine, but she got it at a white elephant party.

[595] Wow, worst.

[596] Yeah, I know.

[597] I know.

[598] good because she was like, I need to make sure.

[599] Yeah, who else is doing that?

[600] I've done the same.

[601] Yeah.

[602] Yes.

[603] So she had this fish and she lived upstairs in my building.

[604] And so when I moved in, she was like, can I bring his name was Zach?

[605] Can I bring Zach down because I'm going on vacation?

[606] Can you watch this fish basically?

[607] And I was like, oh.

[608] You have to look at that thing.

[609] Are you serious?

[610] Like, I don't care about that.

[611] It needs watching.

[612] That would have been my thought.

[613] Like, I'll go up to your apartment and drop some food in it.

[614] Right.

[615] But, but.

[616] I guess it was just easier to have it there.

[617] So anyways, she brought it over and I was like, but I kind of got obsessed.

[618] I would just stare and make sure it was breathing.

[619] And I would check in with what happens if it's not moving for a while.

[620] Also, because, you know, Bettafish can die at any moment.

[621] I felt like on my watch.

[622] I did die.

[623] That is a big motivation.

[624] So I did.

[625] I had all this kind of anxiety around it.

[626] And then I started caring about it.

[627] Of course.

[628] You loved Zach.

[629] And then it did die on her birthday.

[630] but not under my care.

[631] But you can get attached to the feeling of caring about it.

[632] It's a good identity builder.

[633] Yeah, I was raised by a grandmother who, when I was little, would take me to my grandma Cabucci's house, her mother.

[634] Russian?

[635] That's Italian.

[636] It was Ya Kabuchi shortened on Ellis Islands.

[637] And we'd walk over, and she'd always go the long way around to go by five houses because these are people who left their dogs outside, which she did not approve of.

[638] And she felt they were too skinny.

[639] And she would send me in with a little foil wrapped dog food.

[640] sneak it in.

[641] We'd feed the dogs.

[642] And every time we'd be running off, and the neighbor would come out, Anne, stop feeding my dog.

[643] And she would keep doing it.

[644] And so I had this very early socialization to think about helpless things.

[645] All right, this point comes in every interview.

[646] It's arrived.

[647] Do you get told you look like Julianne more?

[648] No, absolutely not.

[649] What a compliment.

[650] I know.

[651] She's so beautiful.

[652] What a legend.

[653] I see it so much.

[654] I do see it.

[655] Yeah.

[656] It's very exciting.

[657] Okay.

[658] We must march through some of the more important aspects.

[659] We know what anxiety is.

[660] We've just talked about it.

[661] It's a spectrum.

[662] Why it exists, we've pretty much talked about it.

[663] We're modeling.

[664] I think we should get into the misunderstanding about it.

[665] And perhaps the history of the disease story.

[666] I think that would be interesting.

[667] As much as we would love to believe this is a new phenomenon, it's not.

[668] Historically, people have recognized anxiety as uncomfortable.

[669] So what is the history of it?

[670] What do we know?

[671] Well, we've slowly demonized it.

[672] And so in the book, I kind of start in medieval Europe.

[673] Although, after I wrote that section, I thought, Oh, gosh, you could think about all these other cultures and how they've dealt with emotion.

[674] But I think we in the West are particularly bad at it.

[675] Because Hinduism, Buddhism, I've been practicing Hinduism since I was 17 years old.

[676] And it's sort of, in some ways, saved me. You're triggering Monica right now, but I'm on the March that.

[677] Triggering in a bad way?

[678] Oh, no. Anything Indian, she's like, shut the fuck.

[679] I'm getting better.

[680] I have to tell you, every Indian kid hated me because I was the white girl poster child.

[681] How did it?

[682] I'm sorry.

[683] Why?

[684] I just got right off on a tangent.

[685] We need to know why.

[686] Why?

[687] Yeah, well, how did that come to interest you?

[688] So I was at my poetry teacher's Day of the Dead Party.

[689] Okay.

[690] Deista murthos?

[691] That was back when I was an artist, where I hated science, I hated technology.

[692] I would never have pictured anything that I'm doing today.

[693] Before you realize music was math.

[694] And that's exactly the transition that happened, especially classical music, but also jazz, maybe even more so.

[695] And I met someone at the party.

[696] We were talking spiritual things and was a slightly older, kind of creepy guy, but was her cousin.

[697] my teacher's cousin.

[698] So I was like, okay, this is okay.

[699] And said, hey, I think you might really be interested in Hinduism.

[700] So, one story short, I just went to a local temple.

[701] And, you know, a lot of these temples are not temples.

[702] They're in people's homes where they have regular gatherings for Pooja on Fridays.

[703] And they call them Piedoms, where people will gather.

[704] And so I went to one.

[705] I lived in upstate New York.

[706] Walked in.

[707] I didn't understand anything, but I felt like I understood everything.

[708] Wow.

[709] And I'd been raised Catholic.

[710] There was something that also, I think, mapped on.

[711] I'm Italian and Irish, the Catholic combination.

[712] My Italian side of the family, you know, my grandmother would get up every morning, say, our novenas, kiss a picture of the Pope's feet, the whole thing, love the Virgin Mary.

[713] And so I felt like this mapping of different aspects of God onto different...

[714] Well, it's icon -heavy, right?

[715] Both religions.

[716] Yeah, icon -heavy, symbolism heavy.

[717] And so it just made sense.

[718] So I spent years learning.

[719] I took formal Sanskrit at college, but I just sort of started memorizing it.

[720] But the reason I think it resonated with me is because I was clinically depressed when I was a kid.

[721] I felt like I didn't know what my meaning and purpose was.

[722] And I think I gained a real sense of purpose and meaning.

[723] And Hinduism, like a lot of traditions, has this whole aspect to it where it's a sort of technology of consciousness.

[724] Yeah, yeah.

[725] Probably explains why I became a psychologist, honestly.

[726] Because it's about taking experiences and channeling them and using them.

[727] There's mantra Shastra, which is the science of sound.

[728] And that made a lot of sense to me as a musician.

[729] And there were these yantras and mantras and all these things that just spoke to me at the moment and empowered me to believe that I could change my internal world.

[730] Is your husband, they say?

[731] Well, he's a New Yorker.

[732] Okay.

[733] But he is Indian.

[734] His name's Vivek Tuari.

[735] There we go.

[736] Dingles.

[737] Duk -Dug -Dug -Go.

[738] Duk -Go.

[739] You would have found that on Duck -Duc.

[740] And only my friends who I've talked to about this book after writing it said, well, of course she wrote this book about anxiety is useful, that's the practice.

[741] Yeah.

[742] And I was like, it does make more sense.

[743] I literally didn't make the connection until I started speaking about it and sharing about it.

[744] Yeah, it's interesting because I come into this conversation in general.

[745] I live with someone with anxiety as someone who's constantly striving for the tools to mitigate it.

[746] Yet I see the value in what you're saying.

[747] So immediately I thought, well, God, I really love Buddhism.

[748] Her message feels antithetical to Buddhism.

[749] But then I really thought about it.

[750] And I was like, no, Buddhism is actually about accepting your family.

[751] in not craving a different feeling.

[752] So in a bizarre way, a Buddhist probably would welcome anxiety, just not crave for the alternative state until it presented itself.

[753] I think Buddhism is completely consistent with this.

[754] And one of my joyful relationships I have is with the Rubin Museum in New York City, which is a museum for a Himalayan culture, Buddhism and Hinduism.

[755] And I consulted on this installation they have that's about the power of difficult emotions.

[756] And it's called the Mandela Lab.

[757] And it's about transforming difficult emotions in how, Buddhism is a map for that.

[758] As you just said, it's this acceptance of, wait a second, this is part of the messy work of being human.

[759] And when did suppression ever work for anything?

[760] Right.

[761] I like you pointed out in the book in our attempt to ignore it or to suppress that, in fact, the outcome is generally it's spiraling out of control.

[762] It's a recipe for that.

[763] And that's why treating anxiety, all anxiety as a disease is never going to allow us to heal anxiety disorders.

[764] So I would never say to someone at the same time that, oh, just love your anxiety, and you have an anxiety disorder, tough it out.

[765] It's really understanding that anxiety disorders are not the same as anxiety.

[766] Yeah.

[767] That's one important distinction.

[768] That's helpful.

[769] Because you only are diagnosed with an anxiety disorder when the ways that you cope with anxiety are actually worse than the anxiety itself.

[770] It's starting to get in the way.

[771] So you're not showing up to the interview because you're convinced you're going to do bad.

[772] Yeah, I would never have flown out from New York to talk with you guys because I would have been anxious and said, I'm going to fail this and I might as well not even tell.

[773] I got to skip it.

[774] Yeah.

[775] When it becomes immobilizing.

[776] It's called functional impairment.

[777] So you literally cannot be diagnosed with an anxiety disorder without ticking off that box.

[778] Well, there's an irony there.

[779] How did those people even find themselves in front of a doctor?

[780] It's not all about agoraphobia, though.

[781] Mine was like I'm disoriented.

[782] That is an impairment.

[783] It would happen sometimes when I was driving.

[784] And it was like, ah, I got to stop.

[785] I have to pull over.

[786] Everything's crazy.

[787] You were like passing out and spin classes.

[788] And it's getting in your way.

[789] It's getting in your way.

[790] And the treatment that gold standard treatment for most anxiety disorders is called exposure and response prevention.

[791] some form of that, which means you expose yourself to what's making you anxious or what you fear.

[792] What is the response that you prevent avoidance?

[793] So you literally just build the skills to ride through anxiety instead of around.

[794] Previously called submersion therapy?

[795] Is that similar?

[796] Isn't that when they duck you in some like a big tank?

[797] No, well, that would be submersion too.

[798] Do you mean immersion?

[799] Immersion therapy.

[800] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[801] I mean, yes.

[802] It's this idea.

[803] It's like if you're a germophobe, they'll make you go through a dumpster.

[804] We've learned a lot over the years.

[805] There are better and worse ways to do that.

[806] But yes, that's essentially the idea is you have to go through, not around.

[807] When we talk about anxiety and we think about our kids, child development is sort of central to how I think about anxiety.

[808] There's this great new treatment that's come out of Yale, Ellie Liebowitz, and his colleagues, it's called Space, supportive parenting for anxious children.

[809] And the treatment, say you have kids with anxiety disorders, you don't actually give them gold standard treatments like cognitive behavioral therapy.

[810] You treat the parents.

[811] All you do is you teach them skills to help their kids work through, rather than you.

[812] than around anxiety, so that if the kid won't go to school anymore, separation anxiety, they won't sleep alone anymore.

[813] You don't have to throw them in the deep end, but you gradually help them go to school.

[814] You don't let them avoid those things.

[815] And you as a parent become that scaffolder.

[816] That's why it's called support of parenting, support them through.

[817] And you do this for just six weeks with parents, teaching them these different habits of helping their kids who are anxious.

[818] And the kids, their symptoms, they're reduced drastically, and as much as if you gave the kids themselves therapy.

[819] So if it's a disease and we think of it this way, then obviously we treat diseases generally with pharmacology.

[820] So let's first acknowledge the effectiveness and acknowledge that people should be on it and that we're pro these treatments.

[821] Because at least I am, there's a million different cases where people should definitely be medicated.

[822] I don't know if you agree with that or not.

[823] But now I want to draw a distinction between that and a generalized benzoprescription for anxiety and where that can generally lead to.

[824] First and foremost, we must acknowledge that people develop tolerances to benzos quite quickly as you would in opiates.

[825] So this is a treatment that if you embark on it, you probably have to acknowledge it's going to increase over time, assuming the anxiety sources are not treated.

[826] Are we in lockstep on that?

[827] We're in lockstep on much of it.

[828] Yeah, talk to me about it.

[829] You seem nervous.

[830] Who me?

[831] Yeah.

[832] This is a tricky question to answer.

[833] This is excitement.

[834] This is on the spectrum.

[835] Okay, okay, great.

[836] Because I care a lot about this topic.

[837] Because I think we're really fucking things up when it comes to we mental health professionals and how we're treating people who are suffering.

[838] Someone comes to you, you're a psychiatrist, your general practitioner, whatever it is, and you say, I can't sleep.

[839] Or I'm having anxiety.

[840] And they're like, oh, okay, great.

[841] Let's give you some medication for that.

[842] It's exactly the wrong thing to do probably 90 % of the time.

[843] Because the serious, powerful drugs that we have, benzodiazepines, at first, when they were developed, we thought they were cures.

[844] And they were so much better than barbiturates, which were literally.

[845] literally like horse tranquilizers.

[846] And killed Judy Garland and Marilyn Monroe.

[847] They died of barbiturate overdoses.

[848] Right.

[849] Quailudes, barbiturates?

[850] I think they are, actually.

[851] Those are supposed to be great.

[852] I mean, they will knock you out, right?

[853] I was envious that my father got to enjoy quailudes.

[854] They're so powerful, and they're so dangerous and addictive.

[855] And so benzodiazepines came along.

[856] Valium was one of the big first ones.

[857] Yep.

[858] And it was like Mother's Little Helper, you know.

[859] Dexedrine in the morning and then of Valium in the afternoon.

[860] That's exactly right.

[861] We've realized this decades ago that.

[862] they are much more addictive and dangerous than we thought.

[863] But what happened in the past couple decades, prescriptions only went up.

[864] And then when you do research on their effectiveness, you find really if you want to help people, they're meant to be temporary because they're so dangerous.

[865] And synergistically, you can easily overdose and become addicted.

[866] You should use them temporarily and in combination with cognitive behavioral therapies.

[867] So it's a standalone treatment.

[868] It's not great.

[869] What it does is it brings you down to a baseline where you can then benefit from building new skills and habits and learning to cope.

[870] And I use this analogy sometimes it you know, benzos are giving someone a fish.

[871] They'll eat for a day.

[872] And therapy is learning how to fish.

[873] So you have these skills for a lifetime.

[874] The problems that it causes are so much greater than what it helps unless you really have it in a controlled, temporary way that you're using it.

[875] Well, I think we can just walk quickly through the physiological steps and they mirror opioid addiction perfectly because when you first take an opioid, it's blocking these receptors.

[876] But your body knows this.

[877] Your body is a great achiever of homeostasis.

[878] So it creates more receptors.

[879] So now you need more opiates to get to what a baseline of your pain level would be.

[880] And this just goes on infinitum.

[881] So similarly, you have anxiety.

[882] You take a benzo.

[883] It works for sure.

[884] But then your body adjusts.

[885] And now the baseline, without the benzone now, you will have extreme anxiety because your body has unleashed a bunch of chemicals that are going to make your baseline so high that now you need it just to feel the way you did previously.

[886] and that's just going to extend an increase over a long period.

[887] It's a loser's proposition.

[888] Yeah, diminished returns in its finest.

[889] At its finest.

[890] And that's why it gets me so upset that this is where we've come as a field.

[891] This is what we have to offer people.

[892] Okay, so let me make a little argument for somebody.

[893] I can imagine a scenario where you've great anxiety, you're a single mother of three, you have two jobs, you're not going to cognitive behavioral therapy.

[894] That's not realistic.

[895] This is not going to happen.

[896] You don't have the finances.

[897] You don't have the time.

[898] you don't have a million different things that would stand in the way of that.

[899] Is it the lesser of two evils for that person?

[900] I could see the argument of, yeah, that'd be great if we could all do that.

[901] But in the absence of that ability, shan't we give some people some relief?

[902] If we can prescribe it in a manner we think they could follow or it's used acutely?

[903] I mean, the problem is that being a successful proposition as an option, it's so much more likely to cause that person more suffering.

[904] That's our failure, because we've relied so much and these powerful pharmaceutical companies have proliferated these drugs so much.

[905] And we think, oh, we feel this uncomfortable of either pain in our body, pain in our soul.

[906] We have to numb it.

[907] That has become what we equate mental health to being.

[908] And so the whole model is wrong.

[909] It is literally predatory and wrong.

[910] Now, the weird good news here is that with the gun bill that just passed, you know, they put that all on the backs of mental health.

[911] We have to manage mental illness because that's why there's gun violence, which is a double -edged sword.

[912] But now all of a sudden, we have these incredible resources where, like physical health for Medicaid, mental health is going to be covered.

[913] So when we make these arguments now about resources and availability, we will have more than just benzos and other pharmaceuticals available for people, presumably.

[914] And that's where society needs to be.

[915] But I mean, I hear you.

[916] I'm going to throw out one gun control thing.

[917] Let me first say, I'm a gun owner.

[918] I have guns.

[919] But the notion that there are two ingredients to this mass shooting equation, mental health and guns, and that we think the side of the equation we might have control over is the mental health of 300 million people is really fucking comical.

[920] Everyone who's screaming mental health, that's the problem.

[921] Great, that's the problem.

[922] Do we think we're going to be able to observe 300 million people's mental health state?

[923] Or do we think we might be able to control bullets?

[924] It's almost absurd.

[925] It's really absurd.

[926] Yeah, it is.

[927] And I own guns.

[928] And both things should be addressed.

[929] It's not saying we shouldn't address mental health.

[930] We should.

[931] Well, it's mental health.

[932] Okay, good luck, motherfuckers.

[933] I can't wait for you to get all 300 million Americans.

[934] Yeah, when the slaughter of children was in a lot.

[935] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[936] Apparently, it's the mentally ill. Yeah, yeah.

[937] And we'll be able to address that, mental health.

[938] That seems doable.

[939] That seems easy.

[940] Yeah, 100 million people are experiencing anxiety.

[941] We don't know.

[942] Yeah, just anxiety.

[943] Yeah, exactly.

[944] We'll be clinically diagnosed with a mental illness in our lifetime.

[945] Half.

[946] Wow.

[947] Yeah.

[948] But I do want to say really clearly, I think that there's a place for anti -anxiety meds.

[949] I just think we have to actually help people use them responsibly and safely.

[950] I know.

[951] And when we don't, we're killing people.

[952] I know and love someone who uses them, in my opinion, absolutely perfectly.

[953] The once a month, you're the person I love.

[954] I wasn't going to out you.

[955] No. Were you just about to say?

[956] Oh, were you talking about?

[957] I am on antidepressant.

[958] It has helped me so much.

[959] I mean, it really has.

[960] So I do have to say that.

[961] It has lifted my floor to a manageable level.

[962] And then I have an Advan prescription.

[963] I use it sometimes.

[964] I will be honest, it doesn't work well for me. If I take it when I have a lot of anxiety, maybe the anxiety comes down 20%, but I haven't noticed a huge difference, so I can't be that proud of my...

[965] But I have known that you've had a prescription for a year now and I think you've used it maybe once a month.

[966] I'm just saying...

[967] Not even, yeah.

[968] So I know somebody who has successfully used it acutely, maybe it doesn't sound like all that effectively, but I would say you're the high watermark of how that could turn out, maybe the outlier.

[969] Yeah, and then it depends on what your goals are.

[970] I mean, when we actually think that anxiety is something that's a part of us instead of some enemy at the gate, We start to make different choices.

[971] And really, if there's only one point that people take from this book, it's just be curious about anxiety and know that it's a feature of being human.

[972] It's not a malfunction.

[973] And if you just start with that, all of a sudden, we will do more of the helpful right things when it comes to anxiety and fewer of the unhelpful things that get in our way.

[974] And that's it.

[975] I don't want to lecture at anyone.

[976] You're not telling anyone to flush anything down the toilet.

[977] I'm not saying flush anything down the toilet.

[978] I'm just like, you know what?

[979] It's really messy.

[980] Yeah.

[981] Mental health is about suffering, actually.

[982] It's about suffering and then getting through.

[983] So it's not the absence.

[984] It's not some weird standard of perfection, of robotic.

[985] You are perfectly happy at all times.

[986] It's just such a false view of what it means to be human.

[987] Well, I like it when you say in the book that this is data coming your way.

[988] This is information.

[989] Your emotions are information coming to you.

[990] They're clues to be looked at and evaluated.

[991] All right, now I'm going to make you do me. I could be wrong about this explanation, but I believe this is maybe true.

[992] So I don't have anxiety.

[993] And I think perhaps because my identity, the story I tell myself about who I am, is I'm not afraid of anything and I want to walk into fire and I don't care.

[994] I'm indomitable.

[995] You can't hurt me. So don't try.

[996] The shirtless guy at the 7 -Eleven.

[997] Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[998] Now at night, I think my identity is asleep.

[999] And so I do experience anxiety at night.

[1000] I will have periods where I wake up several times in the night.

[1001] I mull over something truly ruminating like two hours.

[1002] It's a waste of time.

[1003] I wake up.

[1004] I don't even care about that thing but i've had a couple experiences recently i was about to buy this house in alabama and it was excessive let's just start there but we win i drug the whole family there everyone kind of loved it everyone signed off on it and then for a few nights in a row i just was waking up and it was an abstract anxiety but at some point in the middle of the night i was like oh i'm very anxious about something it's not about this nightmare i just had what's going on and i had this moment of clarity where i was like if i buy this house for this much money and it costs this much to maintain every trip we ever take has to be to that house.

[1005] This is my fantasy, not my family's fantasy.

[1006] If they ever want to go anywhere else, and I'd be like, fuck that.

[1007] And I realized some part of me knew better, but I was very much blinded with the romantic notion of my life down at this place.

[1008] And so after the second or third night of waking up with it, I actually recognize what it was.

[1009] This is a terrible idea.

[1010] It's going to lead to all these resentments against my family, and no one's going to love it but me, and I won't even love it because of all these reasons.

[1011] So I pulled the plug on it.

[1012] Then I slept like a fucking baby, right?

[1013] And I've had like three or four of those in the last year where I wake up, I think it's anxiety about this silly specific thing, but I open up the door to now something else is happening and I've gotten a few kind of breakthroughs.

[1014] And I think because now I've had some breakthroughs, I do greet it with more optimism when it's happening.

[1015] I love this story.

[1016] Because your anxiety was your wisdom.

[1017] What if we actually just thought of anxiety as our gut instinct?

[1018] What if we thought of it as a way to access these things, this knowledge and understanding of what we need and want and what our purpose is at a deeper level.

[1019] What if we just flip -switched our view of that?

[1020] All of a sudden, so many things would be possible.

[1021] And the suffering of anxiety, which is significant?

[1022] And here I am like, anxiety, it's great.

[1023] I have, over the past six months, when I tell you the roller coaster of anxieties I've experienced, been intense.

[1024] Even just recently, we moved out of an apartment in the city.

[1025] I packed my kids off to sleepaway camp for the first time, both at the same time.

[1026] We have to figure out where we're going to live.

[1027] And it was very uncomfortable and it was exhausting.

[1028] But my anxiety was the part of me that was projecting into the future, imagining it, holding it, and listening to what I really wanted as I was making decisions and navigating this uncertainty.

[1029] And the more I just was like, okay, I'm going to tune into it.

[1030] I'm going to manage it when it's too much.

[1031] I'm to do things that are self -care, but I'm going to actually honor it.

[1032] My life is a million times better.

[1033] And I believe that fundamentally, that even when we struggle with it, it can actually make our lives better in so many ways.

[1034] And I'm 100 % convinced of that.

[1035] Yeah.

[1036] Well, it's Buddhism 101.

[1037] I guess it is.

[1038] It's funny because there's a saying in AA, which is acceptance is the answer to all my problems, which is an interesting one, and it's hard to get to because we are also people who want to exert our will in the world.

[1039] Anxiety doesn't agree with that, though, entirely.

[1040] That's where we have to know when to let go of the future tense and be in the present tense, because anxiety is all about will.

[1041] It's the belief you can control the future.

[1042] Right, right, right, right.

[1043] So it's striving in a way that we don't always want to be in that mode.

[1044] As much as I say anxiety is there to help us navigate the future, it is.

[1045] That doesn't mean we want to be in the future all the time.

[1046] No, no, no, no, no, no. But you can only wield it when you actually have some familiarity with it to know when you do want to let go of it.

[1047] Yeah, unfortunately, as all things fall into this category, and it's tempting to put everything in binary opposition, it's not good or bad.

[1048] I don't believe you're saying it's good or bad.

[1049] It is a thing.

[1050] There are a good size or a bad size.

[1051] There's a right size amount of it.

[1052] There's a bad side.

[1053] So, yeah, the acceptance thing in AA is when people stumble upon all the time because I'm a human who wants to exert my will on this world.

[1054] as I should.

[1055] I want my kids to be a certain way.

[1056] I want to have a certain level of health.

[1057] It's fine to have a will.

[1058] It's when you recognize my will has no impact on this.

[1059] This is life on life's terms.

[1060] This is the reality of the world I live in, the situation I'm in.

[1061] Now, the moment you can accept that, I find there's great peace.

[1062] But to me, step one is try to get everything the way you want it.

[1063] And then step two is be honest and recognize when you're not going to have any sway over that.

[1064] And when is it time to accept and move on to the next thing you'll be worried about?

[1065] And that's why these negative emotions, these uncomfortable emotions, whether it's anxiety, anger, regret, all of these emotions, they are helpmates in that because we emote to move.

[1066] We emote to do things.

[1067] These are the forces in our life and they really are alchemical and we can work with them.

[1068] When Dan Pink was talking about regret, he was talking about it being this clarifying emotion.

[1069] And it's easy for us in some ways to say, yeah, regret can be good.

[1070] anxiety has a deeper PR problem than that.

[1071] Because it's also the same word as we use for a disease.

[1072] Yet, it's the disorder of our times.

[1073] It's the crisis of our time.

[1074] So it's this particularly naughty problem.

[1075] I mean, I think we have to rescue all the negative emotions.

[1076] And it's sort of a zeitgeist right now.

[1077] Like, you know, Dan Pink wrote about regret.

[1078] Susan David has this great book called Emotional Agility that's about sort of working with your emotions.

[1079] Susan Kane wrote Bittersweet.

[1080] So there's this thing happening now where we're all circling that.

[1081] Yeah, even Hyatt in his book on Child Rewering is virtually this as well.

[1082] The coddling of the American mind, very much so.

[1083] And this notion of safe spaces, which he talks about it, like I talk about in the book as well, is very detrimental to us coming to this.

[1084] Emotions don't damage us, actually.

[1085] Feeling bad is not necessarily trauma.

[1086] We overuse that word.

[1087] Not that there's not trauma.

[1088] There's certainly trauma.

[1089] Yeah, there are bad things on the other side of emotions.

[1090] But the emotion itself is just an emotion.

[1091] But when you go and overeat due to that emotion or you go and drink alcohol, the behavior that can follow from the emotion, but that's why you've got to be.

[1092] specific.

[1093] If we shift our attitude just a little bit about it, it becomes a different proposition.

[1094] Yeah.

[1095] Well, that's another thing.

[1096] Naming your emotions.

[1097] Brennade Brown's recent book, too.

[1098] Talk about Zikeyes.

[1099] I don't totally agree that there's 55 million emotions, but it's about naming our experiences.

[1100] Yes.

[1101] That itself changes everything once you name it.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] Oh, this has been lovely.

[1104] Yeah.

[1105] And I want you to know that what's funny enough is I was on the toilet this morning where I do all my thinking and researching and I yelled to my wife.

[1106] I said, you know, I booked a guest today solely because of you.

[1107] And she said, oh, really, who's the guest?

[1108] And I said, Dr. Tracy Dennis, Tawari.

[1109] I said, because she has a reframing of anxiety.

[1110] And she walked into the bathroom and she held up your book.

[1111] She's reading it by mere coincidence.

[1112] No. Yes.

[1113] A friend of her sent it to her.

[1114] Well, you know.

[1115] Who's your mutual friend?

[1116] Well, Marcel Parasot.

[1117] Oh, we love Marcel.

[1118] It's one mutual friend.

[1119] And my husband is, among other things, Broadway producer, musicals.

[1120] And so we've sort of tried to get it to some of the, And by the way, the Broadway community gets this book.

[1121] Sure.

[1122] For the reason that you were talking about, that artists and performers understand this notion that you have to channel and use your anxiety.

[1123] And by the way, we saw your resplendent wife performing at the wonderful gala for Kristen and Bobby.

[1124] Oh, we were there.

[1125] Oh, yeah.

[1126] Anyway, it was just wonderful.

[1127] I was engaged in a fight with the staff just behind you.

[1128] I was filming her, and you're not allowed to film in there.

[1129] The guy said, you can't film in here.

[1130] I said, I know.

[1131] But I'm going to, because it's my wife and I'd rather have you mad at me than her.

[1132] I agree with that entirely Well this has been a blast I appreciate you coming out and doing it in person It makes it so much better And I want everyone to check out Future Tense Why Anxiety is good for you Even though it feels bad Check it out Thank you, Dexon Thank you Stay tuned for more Armchair expert If you dare And now my favorite part of the show The Fact Check with my soulmate Monica Padman I wanted, I thought this before he even pulled his phone out.

[1133] Uh -huh.

[1134] I wanted to publicly think Wabi, of the many hidden treasures people don't know about him.

[1135] Yeah.

[1136] He takes such good care of us.

[1137] He's always bringing us coffee from the hardest place to get coffee.

[1138] He brings us these bagels that you can't get.

[1139] You got to get in line on Tuesday if you want a Thursday bagel.

[1140] Don't, well, fuck it it.

[1141] It's already, couldn't get more poppy.

[1142] Yeah.

[1143] But Wobby Wobb somehow has a hack at Courage bagels.

[1144] So he gets us bagels today.

[1145] We've got a pink box of Baked goods, vegan, gluten -free.

[1146] Just what I needed.

[1147] That's what it's called.

[1148] Just what I needed.

[1149] K -N.

[1150] What?

[1151] Oh, like eating bread.

[1152] Okay, speaking of Wobby -Wob and coffee.

[1153] Okay.

[1154] We had an adventure this weekend.

[1155] You and Wabiwob?

[1156] Yes.

[1157] Tell me. Rob sent me an Instagram pick of a sim picture.

[1158] It was a T -shirt for sale.

[1159] And it said M -O -P -Q.

[1160] Remember Mo -M -M -M -P -P -C -U?

[1161] Yeah.

[1162] Yeah, it's like Mo P -Qs.

[1163] It is.

[1164] But also Monica P -Qs.

[1165] Yes, M -O and Mo. So, immediately it was like, okay, I need this.

[1166] And then he told me, buy our coffee shop, Maru.

[1167] There's this tiny little store.

[1168] It used to be a plant store that closed down.

[1169] but they were going to do a pop -up this past weekend.

[1170] Oh, my Lord.

[1171] Saturday and Sunday only.

[1172] Special merch.

[1173] Special merch for Maru.

[1174] And it was a collab with the Museum of Peace and Quiet, which is what Mo PQ is and it's a very fancy brand that Gwyneth Paltrow follows.

[1175] So anyway, I was like, okay, well, we're going to this.

[1176] So then Rob put it in my cow.

[1177] I met him there at 9, which is when it opened.

[1178] Uh -huh.

[1179] And the line was already crazy.

[1180] Yeah, there's a lot of people there already.

[1181] We live in a very civic neighborhood.

[1182] People are out on the street.

[1183] I know.

[1184] They're in line.

[1185] Oof.

[1186] Try and eat these bagels.

[1187] I don't know who works.

[1188] Everyone stands in line all day, yeah.

[1189] Well, I was immediately upset, but then I got in line and I was like, this is where I meant to be.

[1190] I forgot that it's like part of my soul to stand in line for something limited additions.

[1191] The dishes, something I want, Jennifer Aniston.

[1192] Oh, yeah, the breakup premiere in London, the Terrence Posner.

[1193] Yes.

[1194] Ever an iPhone, Apple product?

[1195] No. No, actually, no. Because Rob had to go to Calvin's swim lessons.

[1196] Okay.

[1197] Which is at my sister's house?

[1198] Yes.

[1199] Shout out to Carly, too.

[1200] Yep.

[1201] So I held down the four.

[1202] Oh, you kept your place in line.

[1203] Yeah, I said, Rob, go.

[1204] I'll get you.

[1205] sweatshirt.

[1206] Okay, that makes more sense.

[1207] I was thinking you anticipated that the line was going to be so long that Rob would be able to do swim less and then he could return and get back in line.

[1208] We thought that was a possibility.

[1209] Okay, that was also on the table.

[1210] It had already been like 30 minutes and no movement.

[1211] Line was not moving.

[1212] Fairly any movement.

[1213] You guys are wild.

[1214] So Rob left.

[1215] I stood in line and I felt high as a kite after I got in there.

[1216] I got us both sweatshirts.

[1217] I got myself a tote bag.

[1218] Were you not becoming nervous that there'd be nothing left for you?

[1219] Of course.

[1220] That's part of it.

[1221] That's part of what happened.

[1222] Scarcity factor.

[1223] Yes.

[1224] Not an abundance mentality.

[1225] No. Well, as soon as you seen a line, you'd be naive to not think there's going to be scarcity.

[1226] It's like a black friday sale.

[1227] There was someone behind me in line and she was talking to a salesperson.

[1228] She was like, can I get the blanket?

[1229] And he was like, oh, we're sold out of blankets.

[1230] I was like, I want to blanket.

[1231] Right.

[1232] As soon as you found out they were not available.

[1233] You were like 12th in line.

[1234] I know.

[1235] They were already sold out a blanket.

[1236] Oh, my God.

[1237] You know, you're not a hard algorithm to figure out.

[1238] Like, we don't need the Instagram algorithm.

[1239] I got it.

[1240] Like, I put, two days only, explosive.

[1241] You'd buy...

[1242] One of Paltrow?

[1243] Yes, you'd buy motor parts.

[1244] Are there limited edition ones?

[1245] Of course.

[1246] Oh, I want them.

[1247] If I went through that whole thing where my weirdism kicks in is, like, I would buy way too many.

[1248] Oh, my God, well, this is so hard to get this one.

[1249] and what if I like it and then I wear it out in six months and I need a backup.

[1250] Oh, shit.

[1251] You know, I do sometimes do that.

[1252] I hate to admit.

[1253] I do that too.

[1254] Yeah, I've done it with Jordans.

[1255] Go back up hats, back up sweaters.

[1256] Oh, you bought backup Jordy's?

[1257] I have, like, the two times where I was like, I'm certain those are going to be my favorite when I pushed order.

[1258] And they've just dropped, so they're not scarce yet.

[1259] I know that in six months they're going to be three times the price.

[1260] Oh, smart.

[1261] I have, I think, two or three times bought two at a time.

[1262] I think that's smart.

[1263] Did you get home and?

[1264] go, I don't want any of this stuff.

[1265] Kind of.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] That's natural.

[1268] That's very natural.

[1269] Once the high was over.

[1270] It's a soft sweatshirt, though.

[1271] It's like when guys kill the deer and then they have a pang of guilt.

[1272] Or then they're like allergic to deer.

[1273] Well, I don't know about any more allergic to deer.

[1274] Well.

[1275] Yeah.

[1276] Anyway, that was a really fun way to start my weekend.

[1277] It's kind of like it's not dissimilar to an upcoming episode.

[1278] We're going to have an armchaired anonymous about stealing, which is your mindset pre -theft versus is the second you've stolen something, how your whole brain flips.

[1279] Exactly.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] Yeah, that's so interesting.

[1282] A little similar.

[1283] But it's like just a fun.

[1284] Yeah, it's fun.

[1285] There's an activity.

[1286] It was.

[1287] Here's the thing.

[1288] As you and I know, I don't need to tell you this, but I'm going to tell other people.

[1289] The aliens are just watching the monkeys move around from place to place.

[1290] I know.

[1291] And they can see the truth, which is, oh, they're just trying to stay busy till they're dead.

[1292] Yes.

[1293] So you were busy doing something and you were elated and stressed and damaging your body.

[1294] in the process, yes.

[1295] Yeah, it was great.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] Well, and then I did have this thought, I was like, when Rob left and I was standing by myself, I was like, ugh, should I go?

[1298] Like, do we need this?

[1299] Go to Calvin Swim lesson.

[1300] Is this worth this?

[1301] But then I was like, if I left this line right now, I won't know who I am.

[1302] For sure.

[1303] You'd be a quitter at that point.

[1304] Yeah.

[1305] And if you're one thing, you're not a quitter.

[1306] Especially when it comes to clothes.

[1307] Yeah, in lines.

[1308] So I made some discoveries.

[1309] I want to start by saying this is the first time this has ever happened to me in history in 47 years.

[1310] On Saturday, all of a sudden, it crossed my mind.

[1311] When's the last time you've left your home?

[1312] That's scary.

[1313] Well, you don't need to.

[1314] You have a sauna.

[1315] Well, get to that.

[1316] But I work here.

[1317] Yeah.

[1318] And my kids are out of school, so I'm driving to school.

[1319] Yeah.

[1320] And I can order food.

[1321] So it occurred to me, I, I had not left since the previous Thursday when I went to an AA meeting.

[1322] So I was on day nine.

[1323] Oh, my God.

[1324] Literally never left the gate.

[1325] I have not not driven for nine days since I was 16.

[1326] Wow.

[1327] I hadn't driven.

[1328] That's weird.

[1329] It was crazy.

[1330] And I was like, oh my God, I've entered this weird little bubble where I'm not even aware.

[1331] It didn't even occur to me until day nine that I haven't had not left the property.

[1332] It was such a bizarre feeling.

[1333] I kind of liked it and it kind of scared me. I'm struggling a little bit.

[1334] Okay.

[1335] Because I have a fact to check about that.

[1336] Yeah, tell me. But I don't want you to get upset.

[1337] I won't be.

[1338] Okay.

[1339] We did go to the movies Friday.

[1340] Oh, okay, then eight days.

[1341] Yeah.

[1342] Yeah.

[1343] Still a lot of days.

[1344] Crazy.

[1345] If you would ever told me you won't leave your home for eight days, we'd be like, what did I do to starve to death?

[1346] Yeah, that's weird.

[1347] Did you be hydrated?

[1348] Did I drown?

[1349] Why haven't I left?

[1350] So on Sunday, to break my fast, Yep.

[1351] Charlie and I went on a hike at 9 .30 a .m. How was it?

[1352] It was wonderful.

[1353] I was reminded that there was a whole world outside of my yard, and then I was seeing other humans.

[1354] It was another thing.

[1355] Not only do I work here, I meet new people all week because of the show.

[1356] You're satisfied.

[1357] Totally.

[1358] I'm not laying in bed, like, feeling like I've not interacted with anyone.

[1359] In fact, I spent most of the day interacting with people.

[1360] So it's very confusing.

[1361] Anywho, on the hike, first up, bump into Sarah.

[1362] Joe McHale's wife.

[1363] Okay, great.

[1364] She and her girlfriend are hiking.

[1365] Uh -huh.

[1366] She is so beautiful, by the way.

[1367] You've met her, right?

[1368] You've hung out with her.

[1369] Ish, yeah.

[1370] Did you do a girl's 90 -thing with that?

[1371] Oh.

[1372] Yeah, she's like, I want to be specific about the beauty.

[1373] Timeless.

[1374] That's what I would say.

[1375] Timeless beauty.

[1376] Chit -chat with her.

[1377] That was fun.

[1378] Oh, weird.

[1379] I bumped into, you know, I haven't left my house in nine days.

[1380] I'm out for five seconds.

[1381] I bump into Sarah.

[1382] That's great.

[1383] Bump into a beautiful person.

[1384] Beautiful person.

[1385] Have a little chit -chat.

[1386] Must have met five or six armcharies on the hike.

[1387] If I had to guess where our strongest concentration of listeners is, I think it's the hiking trail in Griffin Park.

[1388] Wow.

[1389] Then on the way down, I bump into your friend.

[1390] Elizabeth lame.

[1391] Elizabeth lame.

[1392] She's coming up that steep trail.

[1393] Elizabeth host of nobody's listening.

[1394] That's right.

[1395] That's right.

[1396] So deep round of applause for her for coming up the super steep pack.

[1397] Oh.

[1398] So what's really funny is she, you know, she's wearing a ball cap pulled down.

[1399] We did her show, so I know her, but she's been a while.

[1400] It's been a while, and she's, like, in disguise, and she's with a little kid.

[1401] So she flags me down, but the funny thing is that she flags me down one second after getting up that super, like, no one can talk when they get to the, so she's like, Dax, I'm, um, um, um, you, and it was hilarious.

[1402] That's so funny.

[1403] She finally unrolled it all.

[1404] And so we had a nice little chit -chat.

[1405] She's the best.

[1406] And then, you know, like another handful of armcharies.

[1407] Now, what's so fun about bumping into armcherrys on the hike is that I'm with Perfect 10 Charlie.

[1408] So immediately the first thing I do, you've seen me do this, it's Perfect 10 Charlie.

[1409] Of course.

[1410] And they're excited.

[1411] Perfect 10 Charlie's excited.

[1412] It's wonderful.

[1413] I feel like people are just getting birthday presents the whole hike.

[1414] Oh, we love this.

[1415] Came back, Formula One.

[1416] Ooh, what a race.

[1417] Hungry.

[1418] Budapest.

[1419] Max Verstappen starting in 10th on the grid.

[1420] Oh shit.

[1421] Unheard of.

[1422] Inqualifying his motor shit out in Q3 and you finished last in Q3.

[1423] And then George Russell got pole, which is the first poll of his career, young George Russell.

[1424] So prior to the race, I'm talking with Matt and Charlie, we're theorizing, you know, like, do you think, wow, is George Russell going to win this race from pole?

[1425] That would be crazy about it.

[1426] And I just kept saying, watch out for a pissed off Max for Stabbing.

[1427] Because he got fucked in Q3.

[1428] So he has been angry for 27.

[1429] hours.

[1430] Yikes.

[1431] And boy, did he drive like it.

[1432] And he won.

[1433] No. So improbable.

[1434] Yes.

[1435] By a margin.

[1436] He won?

[1437] Yes.

[1438] He dominated.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] He dominated without the fastest car.

[1441] The friar was the fastest car all weekend.

[1442] Intent?

[1443] Yeah.

[1444] That's actually, I would have thought impossible.

[1445] So, well, I do think Lewis has finished first starting in 20th.

[1446] No. Yeah, I think he had like an engine penalty one race.

[1447] and starred in 20th and 1.

[1448] But anyways, this was really, really impressive.

[1449] Wow.

[1450] Hats off to Max.

[1451] And I hosted Sean White.

[1452] Oh, fun.

[1453] What a blast.

[1454] Good.

[1455] What a sweetheart.

[1456] Yeah.

[1457] He and his girlfriend Nina came over, and it was so wonderful and fun because, well, people all have already heard now on Monday, we got to ask her what that experience backstage was when I remember that?

[1458] Yeah.

[1459] And I was like, God, I want to be.

[1460] from her perspective because I started chatting with her, tried to get her interested in Sean.

[1461] He's an Olympian.

[1462] Do you remember this story?

[1463] I remember it well.

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] And so she had a great favorable memory of the whole thing.

[1466] There was no apologies were needed.

[1467] Okay, so that was really, really fun.

[1468] Now the sauna, you brought that up and I'm going to hit you with it.

[1469] Kristen was obsessed with getting a sauna.

[1470] I don't think I've ever seen her research something.

[1471] I'm sure she was involving you.

[1472] I was in Miami getting these emails like, every five minutes.

[1473] So you have to pick between this one and this one.

[1474] This one's great and this right.

[1475] And I was like, I'm not going to read any of these reviews.

[1476] Like, just pick whatever one you want.

[1477] I don't even want a sauna.

[1478] I don't care.

[1479] Okay.

[1480] You know that about me. I'm not a sauna.

[1481] I like saying sauna.

[1482] Oh, yep.

[1483] Pronouncing it correctly.

[1484] You do like that.

[1485] The Finnish pronunciation.

[1486] And you like a cold plunge, so that's going to go nicely.

[1487] Yep.

[1488] And come to find out there's a lot of science.

[1489] That basically the sauna for 20 minutes, sauna produces the same thing that the cold plunge does, which is like an elevated dopamine for an extended period of time.

[1490] because you're suffering.

[1491] Right.

[1492] So in theory, I'm up for it because I want to suffer multiple times a day and then feel good all day.

[1493] Well, this thing has arrived and I can't stay out of it.

[1494] I love it.

[1495] Oh, my God, every night I'm in it doing the whole thing.

[1496] I'm not a sweater.

[1497] There's fucking buckets of sweat under me when I leave.

[1498] I come out of it.

[1499] I jump in the pool to cool off.

[1500] I feel stoned.

[1501] I'm confused a little bit, little lightheaded.

[1502] Kristen's bracing herself.

[1503] off as she exits the sauna like she might fall down that's a state we're in okay but the euphoria is real and it's it is extended and i've been so calm every night well i hope you're drinking enough water and i know you'd be concerned i appreciate it yeah just i'm gonna say it i am i'm actually not every time but several of the times i'm drinking electrolytes in the sauna while i sauna that's what i would hope yeah yeah that's a good idea yeah i also went to the sauna not at your house I went to the spa yesterday, and there was a sauna there, so I sauned.

[1504] How long were you in there?

[1505] I don't know.

[1506] That's the hard thing.

[1507] I didn't want to bring my phone in.

[1508] It was going to be too high, and I didn't want to be distracted on my phone.

[1509] And then there was no timer.

[1510] Oh, right.

[1511] So what's cool about this sauna is it's got an old -fashioned fucking sand hourglass that just rotates, tells you 15 minutes.

[1512] Also, there's Bluetooth speakers in it.

[1513] So last night I was listening to fucking revisionist history.

[1514] Oh, that's awesome.

[1515] And there's something about, because I bet your sauna experiences up to this point have been the exact same as mine where, which is I go in there, I don't know what the fuck it's about.

[1516] I go on it, oh, it's hot in there.

[1517] Let's go see if I can sweat maybe.

[1518] Right.

[1519] I don't know how long you're supposed to be in there.

[1520] Now that there was this study that says, oh, this amount of time, this many days a week, extend your life, expectancy five years.

[1521] Now it's like you have an objective.

[1522] So it's 20 minutes, is that you said?

[1523] 20 minutes, yeah.

[1524] And it's too abstract when you're just hopping in there for God knows what.

[1525] It's not pleasurable.

[1526] It's not like getting on a hot tub, which is not.

[1527] Nice.

[1528] But I like sweating and feeling like I got some toxins out.

[1529] Yeah, but aren't you the whole time asking yourself, like, how long do you do this?

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] That's what I've always felt like.

[1532] Yeah.

[1533] Like, what is this?

[1534] And I also think like, how long have I been in here?

[1535] It's maddening.

[1536] It could be five minutes.

[1537] It could be 20 minutes.

[1538] I just don't know.

[1539] Well, like, will I transition from being alert to completely pass out?

[1540] Yeah, I have a level of anxiety in there.

[1541] Same.

[1542] Yeah, I'm like, okay, I feel a little lightheaded.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] It's kind of like oxygen, oxygen deprivation.

[1545] Well, they call it something, but apoxia.

[1546] Oh.

[1547] When you're up on Everest.

[1548] So you're getting so deranged from lack of oxygen that now you're starting to lose your faculty to assess whether you're getting drained.

[1549] Like there's an opposite of a sweet spot, but a danger zone.

[1550] Yeah.

[1551] Or it's like you're just going to peacefully drift off because you're too dumb at that moment to evaluate if you're fucking dying of oxygen deprivation.

[1552] It's a little scary.

[1553] Anyways.

[1554] Oh, anyway, so I went to the sauna and then I had a massage and, um, It was really an interesting experience.

[1555] Oh, my God.

[1556] Another erotic one?

[1557] Well.

[1558] These people can't keep their hands off you.

[1559] No, this is not that.

[1560] Okay.

[1561] Yeah.

[1562] So the guy came out in a mask.

[1563] Okay.

[1564] So I couldn't, you know, really see his face or whatever.

[1565] And then he asked, he's like said my name, but I couldn't really understand, and I thought it was because of the mask.

[1566] And so I was like, Monica, and then he, like, showed a piece of paper that said my name.

[1567] And I was like, yes.

[1568] And so we go in the back, and he was deaf.

[1569] He's explaining, like, the beginning of the massage.

[1570] You know, they explain stuff at the beginning.

[1571] Yeah.

[1572] And I'm panicked.

[1573] I hate, like, I hate that I'm admitting this, but I'm going to.

[1574] I thought, like, should I say this?

[1575] This is going to probably paint me in a bad light, but you just have to see this whole journey through.

[1576] Right, right, right.

[1577] So I panicked a little bit because I was like, I don't know what he's saying.

[1578] and I...

[1579] I can imagine three fears were out of the bat.

[1580] Like, A, I'm nodding my head and saying yes to stuff that I don't really know what he's saying.

[1581] Two, if I need to communicate while I'm on my stomach and say like that's too much pressure or whatever, that might not work.

[1582] Exactly.

[1583] So there's a few fears.

[1584] Yes.

[1585] Those are natural.

[1586] Yeah, and then, you know, he left and I was changing and I was just like, don't do this.

[1587] Right.

[1588] You know, like, it's fine.

[1589] This is going to be great.

[1590] Like, don't.

[1591] Don't conflate the fact that he's deaf with, like, he's incapable or something.

[1592] Incompetent.

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] And, you know, I felt guilty that I thought it.

[1595] I was like, okay, you thought it, and then you can let it go.

[1596] And that's not going to be things.

[1597] You step over your first thought.

[1598] Yeah, exactly.

[1599] Yeah, that's what we do in life.

[1600] So then I get on the table, and then he comes in.

[1601] And at first, at the very first, he's just, like, kind of like, touching my body, I think to, like, prep, you know, whatever.

[1602] get my body ready.

[1603] But it like, but I was like, oh, fuck, it's already, yes.

[1604] Yeah, a light tickle.

[1605] This is a tickle and I feel uncomfortable and I don't know how I'm going to communicate this and I was like, and I knew it, you know, like this time.

[1606] Should listen to myself.

[1607] Yep.

[1608] And then, of course, then he really starts.

[1609] Then he dropped the hammer on you.

[1610] It's incredible.

[1611] It's an incredible massage.

[1612] Kind of like your mushrooms experience, but.

[1613] Yeah, but it made me think, like, yeah, we all have these biases and we go in, but it takes a real effort to say, put that aside.

[1614] Challenge yourself.

[1615] Yes.

[1616] So anyway, it was incredible.

[1617] And then when we were done, like, he pulled his mask off.

[1618] Interesting.

[1619] I know.

[1620] And he was so handsome.

[1621] Oh, wow.

[1622] He was so gorgeous.

[1623] Oh, my God.

[1624] And I was like, oh, wow.

[1625] And it was sensual.

[1626] It was bad.

[1627] Yeah.

[1628] Anyway, so I really liked it.

[1629] I'm definitely going back to him.

[1630] Yeah, I can't wait to find out where this goes.

[1631] Yeah, he was really, it was exciting.

[1632] Were you shook?

[1633] Yeah, because also in the middle, one of the thoughts I had, which I thought was important.

[1634] Is that you could fart loudly?

[1635] That's what I thought you were.

[1636] But if you knew for sure it was odorless?

[1637] I don't ever know that.

[1638] Only you know that.

[1639] It's hard to know.

[1640] I know.

[1641] You got to let way more farts out than you do to have the expertise I have.

[1642] But no. Okay, so I had this realization while I was in there, which was, it made me understand why I was having some of the panic.

[1643] I love massages, obviously.

[1644] Who doesn't?

[1645] But I do think I have placed it in my brain as a place I can get touched safely.

[1646] Right.

[1647] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1648] I get physical contact in a safe space.

[1649] Yeah, for sure.

[1650] So immediately it felt like this isn't a safe space.

[1651] Uh -huh.

[1652] Uh -huh.

[1653] And now I'm not.

[1654] uncomfortable.

[1655] Yeah, because you can't communicate.

[1656] Yes.

[1657] These are all natural.

[1658] I was going to add, I'm listening to this book, Behave, as you know, because I think you said Charlie's also listening to it.

[1659] And it's a dense fucking book, as we discuss.

[1660] It's also an incredible book.

[1661] It's great.

[1662] But there's all these different data sets in there.

[1663] One of the things that is relevant is your amygdala is where all of your fighter flight comes from.

[1664] It's where all your fear comes from.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] And when the amygdala is really online, that's when people are violent, that's when they run.

[1667] Like, you know, the upside is it keeps us alive.

[1668] And it's also, anytime our terrible behavior is happening, it's the amygdala.

[1669] Is it midbrain?

[1670] Yeah.

[1671] So they have hooked people up to, I guess it's fMRIs or whatever.

[1672] And if you show someone a photo of an out group, like it be anyone, you could be black and see a white, white and black.

[1673] before any part of your brain is functioning, your amygdala lights up.

[1674] Your brain is so good and fast at recognizing other outgroup.

[1675] Yeah.

[1676] It was survival for so long.

[1677] Yeah.

[1678] And it just talks about the fact that nobody can be anti -racist enough to have control over their amygdala before their brain has even worked.

[1679] Yeah.

[1680] So it's like we should all start with admitting like that's going to go off.

[1681] And then the rest of your brain, prefrontal cortex, the neocortex, all that stuff is now going to walk your amygdala through what's going on.

[1682] That can extend to so many things.

[1683] It's like exactly what you're saying.

[1684] It's like, okay, this is other, this is different.

[1685] I might not be able to communicate.

[1686] You know, your first thought's survival.

[1687] And you're vulnerable.

[1688] Like, in that, you're very vulnerable.

[1689] Kitty's out, the whole shabang, yeah.

[1690] You know, I don't think one needs to feel guilt over all these initial feelings.

[1691] They need to feel guilt if they don't walk through it.

[1692] I agree.

[1693] I'm back to the farting thing Oh yeah You know this already And I think listeners do too But I'm going to remind everyone My father couldn't smell Right right The last whatever 20 years He broke his nose so many times He just couldn't smell Yeah And the freedom with which I farted On the couch When we were watching TV And I remember like I would know they were gonna stink I'm like oh fuck everything And I just let it out And I'd sit there He had no idea we're sitting In a very stinky room What a secret to have Yeah Yeah It's great Okay.

[1694] You didn't even have to pull out your fart pillow.

[1695] No, I'd no need for a fart pillow when you're with Dave Senior.

[1696] That's really.

[1697] Let it rip.

[1698] That's really special.

[1699] Spread your cheeks.

[1700] Get it all out.

[1701] That's really nice.

[1702] It's a really special father son.

[1703] Yeah.

[1704] Bond.

[1705] You could share.

[1706] Okay.

[1707] Does oxytocin increase with anxiety?

[1708] She said that it did and I wanted to look into it.

[1709] Oxytocin increases fear and anxiety in future.

[1710] stressful situations.

[1711] It says it's been shown that peripheral oxytocin levels increased under psychosocial stress conditions.

[1712] Again, behave, back to behave.

[1713] I was telling you about this last week, is that like the two chemicals we have such a stereotype fairy tale story about our testosterone and oxytocin.

[1714] Like testosterone is violence.

[1715] And then oxytocin is love, the love chemical.

[1716] and he's like neither of those are really true yeah when you are loving someone it's elevated and present he said but primarily the reason that mothers get so much oxytocin which we would have normally said oh so that they'll be more patient and loving and sympathetic to this child that's going to be annoying and needs them oxytocin apparently dramatically improves your ability to recognize faces oh interesting so the mom's getting like uber oxytocin so that she's particularly acute at recognizing her baby.

[1717] Oh, interesting.

[1718] Isn't that interesting?

[1719] Well, also, this makes sense.

[1720] If it increases your anxiety, you want a mom to be a little anxious.

[1721] You want her to be aware of what's around, any potential threats, like, eat.

[1722] Yeah, remember to feed you, remember to change your nappies and clean your butt.

[1723] Mm -hmm.

[1724] So, you know, sit in your puty?

[1725] Are you going to let your baby sit in that?

[1726] It's pooty.

[1727] Why would I?

[1728] Oh my God.

[1729] Why would you even say that?

[1730] Because we like pootie.

[1731] Is it because of that time, that horrible lady told you I didn't clean Delta's butt well?

[1732] No. Never forget.

[1733] I forgot about that until you just said that.

[1734] Well, I don't forget every day.

[1735] You never will.

[1736] You'll be on your deathbed.

[1737] Bitch, I clean that.

[1738] Stupid bitch.

[1739] There's no pooty left.

[1740] No, I was just thinking because you'll think it's a pootie's cute because it'll be your little baby's pooty.

[1741] Yeah, but.

[1742] Maybe just, you'll leave.

[1743] it out in the open.

[1744] Yeah, I'll, like, I'll clean it.

[1745] Yeah.

[1746] Keep it on display.

[1747] It's always her.

[1748] The idea that you can make anything but a girl is abstract to me. Oh, true.

[1749] You know, my brother made only girls.

[1750] I made only girls.

[1751] You're going to make only girls.

[1752] I'd like, I'd like, I'd like, I'd like, I know.

[1753] I'd like, I'd like, I know, big ball sack.

[1754] Gosh, such a strong virility.

[1755] And perfect town Charlie, too.

[1756] Yeah, both of them.

[1757] So macho.

[1758] Okay, she said that often Hindu temples.

[1759] aren't temples they're in people's homes I just wanted to clarify that a little bit I mean In India though she was saying No here She's saying here Oh Because she lives here And she's married to an Indian man Yeah And she's okay And she's been practicing Hinduism Yeah yeah I thought she was talking about India But what do I remember I could be wrong But I'm pretty sure There are Hindu temples That are places But a lot of Hindus have like shrines in their house Where they pray every day So it's like an enclosed environment We had one for a long time Oh, you did?

[1760] I thought that wasn't your jam It wasn't my jam No, no, I didn't even think your parents were religious at all Exactly, so like they weren't really But then they...

[1761] In a pinch you should have a room I don't know Or maybe they were more religious than they let on Or it's also passed down You know, it's just like the parents did this, so they did it.

[1762] It's true.

[1763] You know, I do my first, second, third step prayers in the morning.

[1764] My kids hear me do it.

[1765] I'm not handing that down to them.

[1766] I hope that they don't need to make any prayer.

[1767] You know, like, only their addicts will, like, you know, you know what I'm saying?

[1768] Yeah, but they might.

[1769] It might just be in their world and it's like something they.

[1770] Yeah, who knows.

[1771] But I'm just saying I can relate to the notion of practicing something.

[1772] You have no intention to handing on to your kids.

[1773] Right.

[1774] That's the point I'm making.

[1775] Well, also, so ours was in this little closet.

[1776] Like, it's like normally in these closet.

[1777] Okay, closeted.

[1778] Well, if I was, it was for me. I was like, if somebody comes over and sees this, like, I was so ashamed and embarrassed by it.

[1779] It was in our guest room closet.

[1780] My grandparents prayed every day.

[1781] That was, like, an important prayer.

[1782] Well, your grandma got her wish.

[1783] What?

[1784] Hottest woman in the world?

[1785] Yeah, that was her wish, for sure.

[1786] It worked for her.

[1787] Definitely her wish.

[1788] No, she was probably praying that I would get prettier.

[1789] Oh, shut up.

[1790] Yeah, she was.

[1791] She thought it was ugly.

[1792] She was thinking the gods that you.

[1793] She thought it was ugly.

[1794] No. But you really think she thought you were ugly?

[1795] Or you were being funny?

[1796] No, she didn't, I don't know if she thought it was ugly, but she was not thrilled by my appearance.

[1797] Well, hold that.

[1798] Hold on.

[1799] Just because she didn't compliment often?

[1800] No, I heard her say it to her sister.

[1801] Oh, my God.

[1802] What a terrible thing over here.

[1803] I know.

[1804] I mean, she didn't say like she's ugly.

[1805] She's a dog.

[1806] She's a dog.

[1807] Yeah.

[1808] So anywho, she thought it was ugly.

[1809] So anyway, back to, I don't remember why you were talking about anything.

[1810] Oh, yeah, she prayed.

[1811] Yeah, in the order of, like, world religions, I have a sliding scale.

[1812] Like, at gunpoint, I had to truly dedicate myself to religion.

[1813] Do you want to hear the list?

[1814] Of course.

[1815] It would go Buddhism and probably Hinduism, then Judaism.

[1816] Then Judaism.

[1817] Then Judaism.

[1818] All the way down the line to Morl Burl Baptist.

[1819] Whoever those freaks are.

[1820] Oh, Westboro Baptist.

[1821] Yeah, yeah, Westboro Baptist.

[1822] Or the eating one, the diet religion.

[1823] That woman from the documentary.

[1824] With a tall hair.

[1825] Yeah, way down, way down.

[1826] Oh, my God.

[1827] Yeah.

[1828] Okay, so the new gun bill, she said mental health will be covered.

[1829] It seems like it is a pretty mental health heavy bill.

[1830] It's not really about gun control.

[1831] And it's kind of, I don't know.

[1832] I do not want to be in this topic or debate, but it's impossible for me not to say.

[1833] If ever there was a naive proposition, it's the notion that we would be able to monitor 300 million people's mental health.

[1834] I know.

[1835] Or that we even have that much control over people's mental health once we even diagnose them with having a disorder.

[1836] Yeah.

[1837] Like, oh, then what?

[1838] I know.

[1839] Then we assign someone to the paranoid schizophrenic to make sure they take their medicine every single day.

[1840] Is that what it's paying for?

[1841] Like, it's such, it's a ludicrous proposition.

[1842] It's very naive.

[1843] Yeah, I agree.

[1844] So.

[1845] It's almost even like the homelessness too.

[1846] Like that too falls under that category where people go like, well, it's mental health.

[1847] And it's like, oh, great, because we figured out it's mental health.

[1848] That's a solution.

[1849] That's not a fucking solution.

[1850] Now what?

[1851] Exactly.

[1852] Huge sanatoriums like we used to have in the 80s that they shut down, which is why we have the mental health thing.

[1853] Like what?

[1854] Right.

[1855] I mean, I think both need to happen.

[1856] I think increasing therapists and psychologists and stuff in schools, in elementary schools is a good upstream thing to do in general.

[1857] Yeah.

[1858] It's just we don't have control over human beings.

[1859] Yeah, I know.

[1860] We don't.

[1861] Yeah.

[1862] Okay.

[1863] Are Kualo's barbitur.

[1864] Not technically, but they are similar.

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] They were their own class, I think, right?

[1867] Quailudes are synthetic barbiturate -like drugs that depress essential nervous system.

[1868] Okay, synthetic barbiturate.

[1869] Quayludes is the only successful drug story ever.

[1870] It's the only drug that people were hugely addicted to where the FDA said, look, this is only manufactured in one place.

[1871] I think they were made in Sweden.

[1872] Uh -huh.

[1873] If ever there was one, we actually have control of the supply and they convinced the makers of it to stop making it and it's never come back.

[1874] Oh.

[1875] Yeah.

[1876] Wow, that's...

[1877] It's like the only success story in the war on drugs.

[1878] We could have that success over methamphetamine.

[1879] I hate to bring this up.

[1880] It's only manufactured at like two places in India.

[1881] Oh.

[1882] The chemical process is so complicated to make the base for it.

[1883] Pseudoepidephedrine or whatever it is.

[1884] The people can't really knock it out.

[1885] They can't make the precursor to it.

[1886] Oh.

[1887] So we could.

[1888] Why aren't we?

[1889] If India was willing to say we're never making this again.

[1890] Oh.

[1891] That's one we could get rid of as well.

[1892] Well, Indians are stubborn.

[1893] These motherfuckers are buying oil and gas from Russia right now.

[1894] I get it.

[1895] They're an impoverished country.

[1896] And they can't pass up a bargain, I guess.

[1897] But God, I'd like it if they passed up that bargain.

[1898] that's kind of what's keeping the Russian oil and gas industry afloat right now.

[1899] Like all the collapse we hoped would happen is being largely gobbled up by India.

[1900] And I'm sure China is close to follow.

[1901] They're all going to get in on the bargain.

[1902] Yikes.

[1903] I wonder if like there's something we could do there so that they wouldn't have to.

[1904] I mean, we need rapidly a brand new source of oil and gas to supplement, but that's not on the horizon.

[1905] No, it's not.

[1906] All right, well, that's pretty much that.

[1907] Oh, okay.

[1908] Yeah.

[1909] That's that for Tracy.

[1910] All right, well, I love you.

[1911] That was a blast.

[1912] So fun.

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