Lena Dunham

[0] Hello, hello, hello.

[1] All right, all right.

[2] Welcome to armchair expert.

[3] I'm your host, Mr. Dax.

[4] I'm going to have a great episode today.

[5] Very powerful woman, beautiful woman, smart, intelligent, dedicated woman, created a show called girls.

[6] I love girls.

[7] I'm here.

[8] Monica, are you here?

[9] I'm here.

[10] You're one of the girls I love.

[11] Yeah.

[12] Yeah.

[13] Well, now I'm going to, now I'm going to break out because I want to be sincere about Lena.

[14] Okay.

[15] So you did it.

[16] Good job.

[17] Okay.

[18] Not to my liking, but I did it.

[19] Now, then let me get into the second thing I wanted to get into, which was, Happy Halloween, because now we're 48 hours away.

[20] Could you have done him doing that?

[21] Halloween.

[22] Oh, let's say, I'll say happy Halloween.

[23] Oh, yeah, that's good.

[24] Trek or trade, smell my fate.

[25] Take me something good to eat.

[26] That's good.

[27] Snickers bars, Twix bars.

[28] I like a nougat.

[29] I like a baby, a baby grand.

[30] What is it?

[31] Hunter grand.

[32] Hunter grand.

[33] I love Hunter grand.

[34] Also like baby Ruth.

[35] Also like to Kayla.

[36] Love to Kayla.

[37] Sure.

[38] And trick of trade.

[39] Smell these fate.

[40] It's nice to have you here.

[41] Give me something.

[42] That's tasty to eat.

[43] Oh, there it is.

[44] Poor Lena.

[45] She deserves a better intro than me having to do a kid.

[46] character and then do a Halloween greeting.

[47] She's like third billing to...

[48] You know what?

[49] She has an hour.

[50] She has a long time to be on this episode.

[51] Matthew can be on for a few minutes.

[52] That's right.

[53] That's right.

[54] Thank you.

[55] Thank you so much, Mr. Dax.

[56] So, Lena Dunham is here today, which is if we felt like a very big get.

[57] Big time, yeah.

[58] Didn't we were elated when she said yes.

[59] Yeah.

[60] She was so fun in person.

[61] Boy, we could almost not even get into the studio because we saw.

[62] started chatting outside when she arrived in the driveway and that could have turned into its own three hour conversation so personable very personable very smart very funny uh she's fantastic you know she created and starred and directed girls on hbo she has a new show her new show camping is out yes and it stars mr mccana no it doesn't it's it's me and lena and we're traveling around this is the part that she probably wouldn't want to happen yeah who wouldn't want me false information.

[63] Who wouldn't want me to star on their show camping?

[64] Well, that's true.

[65] He'd be great for it.

[66] That's why I'm in it.

[67] Because it's a great show and I want to star in it.

[68] Well, that's because I'm in the show camping.

[69] Alongside, Lina Dunham.

[70] It's hard for me to look at me. It's been going on for a long time.

[71] I know because I've got to put my tongue in a weird spot.

[72] Is that what it is?

[73] Can you describe what physically has happened?

[74] That's so disturbing.

[75] If you had to put your finger on it.

[76] Put your finger on it.

[77] Trick or trait.

[78] Put your finger on it.

[79] I think part of it has to do with your eye contact.

[80] Oh, yeah.

[81] It's really intense.

[82] Severe.

[83] Now I'm going to get us out the window.

[84] What is this intro?

[85] I don't know.

[86] I'm sorry.

[87] I'm all right.

[88] Lena Dunham.

[89] Lena Dunham.

[90] We love her.

[91] She delivered.

[92] Please enjoy Lena Dunham.

[93] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[94] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[95] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[96] I'm so happy.

[97] I'm so happy looking at you.

[98] I'm so happy in this space.

[99] I love your doorless bathroom.

[100] Now, I don't believe we've met in real life.

[101] I've seen you at events, but we've never engaged.

[102] We've never engaged.

[103] And as I see, you know how this happens?

[104] We both meet famous people.

[105] Yep.

[106] And generally they fall into one of two categories where they're more attractive in real life or they're less attractive in real life.

[107] Yep.

[108] And looking at your face, I'm overwhelmed with how cute it is.

[109] Not that I didn't think your on -screen presence wasn't, but I'm really enjoying this real life version of you.

[110] That means so much because, I mean, firstly, I pulled up and I was like, oh, when you came out in your overalls, I was like, this is down to his Ducati motorcycle.

[111] I was like, this is a gentleman with an enormous amount of swagger.

[112] We knew you were a handsome sculpting blonde, but that means a lot to me actually because even though I don't think a ton about the looks thing, like I've been going through a bit of a phase where I've been feeling a little down on myself.

[113] I texted my best friend Scotty the other night and told her that I couldn't leave the house because I said I'm, I look like a piece of dough.

[114] Okay, sure.

[115] And she had a great answer.

[116] She was like, she was like, you know what?

[117] Well, she's very pregnant.

[118] She's a better excuse to feel like a piece of dough.

[119] But she was like, I'm a piece of dough right now.

[120] And I'm going to be a piece of dough next week.

[121] But probably I've been not a piece of dough before and I won't be one in two years.

[122] But right now I'm just kind of owning it.

[123] And so let that dough bake in the sun.

[124] What a nice.

[125] Yeah, that's nice.

[126] Because you know what's tricky is it's tempting.

[127] Many things can be happening simultaneously.

[128] So you can be embracing who you are, right?

[129] And learning to love that person.

[130] And that's healthy and wonderful.

[131] And we should all aspire to do that.

[132] And then yet you're also just an animal.

[133] You're a human being and you want to look your best.

[134] Whatever the zone of that is that you've come to like accept about yourself, you kind of want to be hitting the top of that zone or at least I do.

[135] Of course.

[136] Yeah.

[137] Especially in, you know, our line of work.

[138] You cannot help but think about your.

[139] looks no and you can't help but think about it and you also can't help but think like i have this thought sometimes just i'm like okay so i came into this job being you know i don't have a i'm not i'm not the archetypal like actress lady but people have accepted that i look a certain way but then i'm like if i go even more that way like as you get older sometimes you gain five or seven or 10 pounds or your metabolism changes or you go or you go on steroids for a little bit or whatever happens, not for muscle building, for inflammation.

[140] I don't take the muscle building kind.

[141] Nor do I, but I want to so bad.

[142] And it has occurred to me, my fantasy was always, well, maybe I'll end up in one of those superhero movies and I'll have an excuse to do it for like six months as an experiment.

[143] And just see how it feels.

[144] Yes, to like walk around as a big lug, like just to experience that feeling.

[145] Are you interested in the also like the fact that when you took steroids, you'd be like speedy out of your mind and convinced you were God?

[146] Well, that is the part that is potentially, I can't do it.

[147] Yeah.

[148] Because I have had friends who have done steroids and there's many different kinds.

[149] And some of them don't give you that.

[150] And then some of them, yes, I've had friends that's like, you couldn't do this.

[151] I feel like I've done one line of Coke all day long.

[152] Yeah, 100%.

[153] So that's a deal breaker for me. Yes, it would be a deal breaker for me too.

[154] But when I take the steroids for inflammation, because I have an autoimmune illness.

[155] Me too.

[156] You do?

[157] Which one do you have?

[158] Sariotic arthritis.

[159] My God, I'm so sorry.

[160] Try not to get too horny.

[161] It's a very sexy disease, serietic arthritis.

[162] Well, I don't want to flip you out, but I have a combination of undifferentiated mixed connective tissue disorder.

[163] Oh, my goodness.

[164] And Ailer Danlos syndrome, which is the side of endometriosis.

[165] Ailer Danlo's syndrome is a hard -to -diagnose and fairly rare genetic mutation, a few different varieties of it.

[166] Shout out to Dr. Howard Levy at Johns Hopkins, who helped me find about.

[167] about this.

[168] It basically means you don't have like enough collagen in your connective tissue.

[169] And so that's the version I have.

[170] I don't have the vascular version.

[171] And so it means like some of the symptoms would be like increased flexibility, but also like increased flexibility and mobility, but decreased strength and joint pain.

[172] And there's also other weird stuff like sensitivity to cold and heat.

[173] And are you inordinately flexible?

[174] I'm going to show you something and you'll tell the viewers at home.

[175] Okay.

[176] Does this impress you?

[177] Oh, my goodness.

[178] So what Lena has done is basically folded up her thumb like a wallet and put it behind her hand on the top of her hand, not on the palm side.

[179] I can't even, okay, so my arthritis targets there.

[180] Yeah.

[181] Can't even get it behind that finger there.

[182] That's maxed out.

[183] What do you do?

[184] How long have you had it and what do you do to take care of it?

[185] So what's interesting is I've had it for going on.

[186] nine years, but for four or five of those years, I had no idea it was that.

[187] I just thought, oh, my feet are swelled up.

[188] That must be motorcycle injury related.

[189] And then I was like, oh, I need knee surgery.

[190] All these things were happening that felt like injuries, I guess.

[191] And also the inflammation from arthritis will settle in injuries, previous injuries.

[192] So I go, oh, this makes sense.

[193] This knee hurts.

[194] I got, whatever.

[195] And then I had a dermatologist who knew I was kind of kept going to all these different joint doctors.

[196] And he said, you know, I think you might have sariotic arthritis, went to a rheumatologist.

[197] He looked at me for five seconds, looked at my fingernails.

[198] He's like, you have it.

[199] I'll run test, but I can tell you right now, you have it.

[200] And then that, then I started a different course of treatment.

[201] But I'm curious if you think like I do in that, I think we're all allergic.

[202] And this is kind of a lefty thing too.

[203] Yeah.

[204] But I think in general, we eat so many different kinds of foods and that we're all allergic to different foods we don't know we're allergic to.

[205] And the symptom can be sariotic arthritis.

[206] it can be your condition.

[207] It can be all these different autoimmune conditions.

[208] I really believe that there is some, a reason I carry around guilt and shame is because, yes, I'm sick.

[209] I also have really serious endometriosis.

[210] I had to get a hysterectomy last year.

[211] Like, I've been through the ringer health -wise.

[212] And so I'm like, yeah, I'm sick.

[213] That's, you know, a thing that just happens to some bodies and doesn't happen to others.

[214] But I am convinced that if I were to be just like a slightly more, I were to be a person with slightly more like willpower and force of energy that like I would be I would feel maybe like 47 % better.

[215] And so every time I crawl into bed, I have like a haze, a blanket of guilt.

[216] Sure.

[217] It wraps me. Me too.

[218] And just in general, are you prone to guilt?

[219] I'm like, I can't.

[220] It's my tastiest addiction is feeling shitty about myself.

[221] I feel shitty about myself.

[222] I feel I literally.

[223] The only time I feel relief in life is when I get for the three seconds after I get a text from someone that's like, it's okay, don't worry about it.

[224] Uh -huh.

[225] And it's like that feeling of someone being like, or like, no, no, you didn't do anything wrong or please thank you so much for checking in.

[226] But it's not an issue.

[227] Yes.

[228] And does this condition lead to you creating elaborate theories on why people are upset at you or?

[229] Yes, but what's such a yes, 100%, but what's sort of become complicated?

[230] in my life is that I was always incredibly guilty and obsessed with the idea that different people had issues with me and didn't like me. But now that I'm a public person, lots of people I don't know have issues with me and don't like me. Yeah.

[231] And some of it for things that I totally knew would be provocative and strange.

[232] So now I have to deal with the duality and also the part of it that is like a total self -fulfilling prophecy and created by me. And that's information none of us really wants about herself.

[233] Yes.

[234] I would say.

[235] But do you think, think at all like there are many times where I think like oh this job of mine has been this crazy blessing it's almost like immersion therapy right where if like you're a germaphobe they make you jump in a dumpster or whatever yep so I have a lot of codependency things and this job has forced me you can't have this job and not learn to set boundaries or you'll die 100 % when you realize no one else actually cares what happens to you girl on set just told me a story she was like 22 and we were barefoot on set and it was getting hot and she said well the last movie I was on I was barefoot and it was in a really dirty dangerous place so they just coded the bottoms of my feet with super glue and I was like what they did what and I realized I was like if you don't say no someone's going to coat the fucking bottoms of your feet with super glue absolutely and then also then in in public so the way I had to confront this whole thing was like, if I'm with my kids and I'm at the airport, I'm not very friendly.

[236] I don't want to interact with people because I don't, that's their time and I feel bad that, you know, they have to share me with other people, whatever.

[237] So in general, I'm pretty direct if we're out as a family, just like, hey, this is our time.

[238] I'm nice to meet you, but I got to keep it moving.

[239] And many times people walk away and they're like, that guy's a fucking asshole.

[240] And I've had to just get comfortable with the notion that, you know what, there are going to be a lot of people on this planet that think you're an asshole but I have to prioritize my family, my friends and I also have to remind myself in those moments where I feel shitty, do any of my friends think I'm a fucking asshole?

[241] Is anyone that really knows me think I'm a fucking asshole?

[242] And I don't think so.

[243] But that's required.

[244] Everyone I know who knows you.

[245] I've been hearing about you for years like, you know, back when 72 % of people said no to Dax Shepherd we had a friend in common.

[246] Leslie Arfin.

[247] Leslie Arfin She's the greatest And so she would talk about you And like I couldn't believe That there was a famous person Who was so nice And it's like she'd always be like Oh yeah I was stressed So I called Dax I was like You called Dax I didn't think that I figured you were like On a yacht somewhere With like Giselle Bunchin sitting on your face Like I just didn't know I sure wish I had had that experience Prior to shutting it all down 11 years ago I feel like that could get me through some lonely nights And that's, I thought it was really cool.

[248] I don't think any of your friends think you're an asshole.

[249] Maybe one, but I haven't met them.

[250] Sure, sure.

[251] Go ahead.

[252] Depends on the day.

[253] Yeah, sometimes Monica thinks I'm an asshole, but she comes back pretty quickly.

[254] I'm around a lot.

[255] I see a lot of sides.

[256] That's true.

[257] We're all assholes.

[258] All the facets.

[259] Yeah.

[260] Oh, that's also true.

[261] Yeah.

[262] Back to Leslie really quick.

[263] Do you know how we met?

[264] Do you know that story?

[265] Was it at the Maritime Hotel?

[266] It was.

[267] Can you detail it for me, though?

[268] Yes.

[269] It's one of my favorite ways to have met someone.

[270] So I was there in New York shooting Baby Mama.

[271] So I was at that hotel for, I guess, six weeks.

[272] You're really good in Baby Mama.

[273] Thank you so much.

[274] I hope that's work you're proud of.

[275] Oh, 100%.

[276] You know what's great about that is like occasionally you do something for entirely the right reason, which was like, I just wanted to be around Tina and Amy being funny.

[277] That's it.

[278] I had zero aspirations for myself in that movie.

[279] I was just like, oh my God, I get to go watch those two do their thing.

[280] They're going to write me a check on Fridays.

[281] Yeah.

[282] So I'm staying at the Maritime Hotel.

[283] And every morning I like to drink coffee.

[284] So I got to order coffee from room service.

[285] But there's no room service at the Maritime Hotel.

[286] You have to call the operator.

[287] And then the operator, I guess, relays the message to the kitchen.

[288] I had at this point talk to Leslie Arfin on the phone probably 42 times.

[289] And so one morning.

[290] Every morning.

[291] And I call up and I go, hey, so I would love the company.

[292] I go, by the way, I just want to add that I think this is complete horseshit that you have to write down my order and relay it.

[293] They should just let me give it to them so you don't have to deal with this.

[294] And she goes, oh, well, that's just the tip.

[295] of the horseshit iceberg of what's going on down here.

[296] And I go, oh, what's going on down there?

[297] And she goes, well, first of all, I'm in a basement.

[298] Do you know, when you talk to me, I'm in a basement.

[299] And I'm like, oh, my God, they've got you in a basement.

[300] So we start talking for probably 20 minutes.

[301] Like, I'm just laying in bed talking with this gal.

[302] I find her super interesting.

[303] She's so funny.

[304] She's so funny.

[305] She goes, hey, listen, I want to take my cigarette break.

[306] So I'm going to go out front.

[307] And I go, great, I'll meet you down there.

[308] So I get on my clothes.

[309] I meet her on the side.

[310] sidewalk.

[311] We talk for another 30 minutes.

[312] We discover we're both in a similar program, which is a fellowship.

[313] Immediately bonding.

[314] And then she goes, oh, I wrote this book.

[315] And I'm like, oh, wow, you've written a book.

[316] I want to read it.

[317] So she gets me a copy of Dear Diary.

[318] I read it so fast.

[319] I love it.

[320] It's incredible.

[321] I give it to Amy Poehler on set.

[322] I'm like, you'll love this book.

[323] Well, Polar is Arfin's favorite.

[324] Her favorite favorite favorite.

[325] Yes, favorite favorite.

[326] And then so Polar reads it, loves it, writes her a little note.

[327] I then give it to Arfin.

[328] This develops into this friendship where she ended up, you know, coming out to L .A. and was taking manager meetings and I kind of was, I like to think somewhat of a mentor to her.

[329] You were because I remember she felt very guided.

[330] Didn't she even stay at your house at some point?

[331] Maybe on your couch for a night?

[332] That's so possible.

[333] I helped her get a car.

[334] Like she didn't know how to get a car.

[335] I helped to get her car.

[336] I think she got her car and pounded one night and I had to drive her to go get her car or something crazy.

[337] So nice.

[338] There's something about her I just really was rooting for so much.

[339] And then you played a really huge role in her life.

[340] And let's talk about this because this goes directly into girls, which is didn't you discover her first writing job was on girls.

[341] And didn't you discover her through Twitter?

[342] Yeah.

[343] I thought she was so funny on Twitter.

[344] I thought she was so smart and interesting and weird.

[345] And like she gives just like a really negative review to a snack food.

[346] Like, it was just like the person where you were like, oh, yeah, no, I want to be watching to you with this person, imidimente.

[347] And so when we were trying to come up with writers for the show, she and I had been DMing, as the kids say.

[348] Sure.

[349] And I asked her to meet me at Aroma Coffee on Houston Street.

[350] Why, we can't know.

[351] I really was obsessed for a summer.

[352] There was a summer where, like, my major vice was, like, eating these really insane cheese sandwiches at Aroma Coffee, like, eight or nine in a day and just sitting and watching people pass.

[353] That sounds heavenly.

[354] to me. It kind of was great.

[355] Like I would feel pretty bad about myself at the end of the day but while it was happening, I was like, I'm an adult and part of being an adult is you can eat as many cheese sandwiches as you want in a 24 -hour period.

[356] So Leslie kind of came to my office in a Roma and we chatted.

[357] Your cheese sandwich clubhouse.

[358] I see cheese sandwich clubhouse and we chatted and I just loved her and we've had some of the great experiences of life together and something I love about our friendship is that she wrote on the first two seasons of the show she went off to do other things and my life and I bet you can relate to this as it got really big lots of career opportunities whatever it also got really small like I my personal life as the world expanded yes I made my personal life really tiny I was very scared and I also didn't create a lot of space my day was divided into like working or like lying with a pillow on my face I didn't understand another mode so looking back I can recognize that probably a lot of people who were really important to my life, I forgot to include, and I forgot to check in on them.

[359] And so, Leslie and I had a long period where, you know, we would check in with each other, but we didn't really spend time together.

[360] And in that time, she got married.

[361] I was lucky enough to be at her wedding.

[362] Oh, so then I would have seen you there.

[363] I saw you at her wedding.

[364] That's right.

[365] Awesome wedding.

[366] The coolest wedding.

[367] Rusty speech.

[368] I wept.

[369] By the way.

[370] Oh, she said, check in with your therapist.

[371] I'll entertain the listeners.

[372] I just want you guys to know that I'm just going to let Dr. John know what's going on.

[373] Hi, I found free therapy on armchair experts.

[374] So I don't have to do this.

[375] I'm going to take a pass today.

[376] I'm going to take a rainy.

[377] Literally everyone in my life is like so sick.

[378] I've been working on this, Dr. Bragg.

[379] I've been working on a Quentin Tarantino movie.

[380] Yeah, I wanted to know if we can, yeah, if you're allowed to say that you're in it.

[381] We can say it because there was a paparazzi picture of me showing Brad Pitt my underwear.

[382] So we, my mom was horrified.

[383] Oh, she was.

[384] She wasn't happy for you?

[385] My mom thinks I'm really funny, but she's in a private way, but she wishes that there was less, like, she wishes that I, like, kept it fun at Christmas, but that there was, like, a little less of, like, a public aspect to it.

[386] My mom's, like, like, a, she's an artist, but she's, like, a nice Jewish girl from Long Island who thinks that, like, underwear should be kept to the person who's wearing them.

[387] Does she think it's indulgent of you?

[388] 100%.

[389] Yeah.

[390] She would say a lot to me when I was growing up, like, a lot of, like, well, at least you think you're funny, like, that kind of thing.

[391] Like my mom or she'll say things.

[392] Every time she's been interviewed, she's like, I always thought Lena was actually, you know, I just always thought she was trying all kinds of things and they didn't work.

[393] But if other people think she's funny, that's great.

[394] Okay.

[395] But also what she can't, or maybe what she's not realizing, is you're just doing your thing at the Christmas party, but there are just people around taking pictures of you.

[396] You're not asking for it to be public.

[397] No, I do other things that are for sure asking for it to be public, but I did not know when I showed Brad Pitt my underpants.

[398] That that was going to...

[399] Now, was that in a scene or just real life?

[400] Real life.

[401] Oh, that's great.

[402] But it was that he asked what a Cupid doll was and I happened to have one tattooed on my side.

[403] So I thought, I'm going to, you know, I've got the illustration right here in my body.

[404] You could spend the next 10 minutes describing it orally or just let his eyes gaze upon my thigh.

[405] Yeah.

[406] And that's just...

[407] I bet he enjoyed that.

[408] You know what I want to believe is like he probably doesn't have that many people just going like, sure, yeah, whatever.

[409] It's right.

[410] Yeah, I'll show you my underwear.

[411] Like, I figure there's not a lot of.

[412] lot of just like good wide new england wide birth new england stop showing him their underwear so like well this this is this is this is this circles beautifully back yes which is i don't i think people underestimate how isolating success is and it's so counterintuitive but i have friends that are you know infinitely more successful than myself and i've seen it it just gets very isolating unless you you got to really uh fight against it have a game plan it's not just going to naturally happen So let's talk about just the experience of, I guess, maybe being an outsider looking in, feeling like you're an outcast and a misfit, and that being kind of your persona, you like punk rock, right?

[413] Yeah, I love punk rock.

[414] And we like Leslie because she's punk rock, right?

[415] Leslie is the definition of punk rock.

[416] Leslie is the most punk rock person I've ever met.

[417] And she's so punk rock that when she does me, that's nerdy, she just like owns it and makes it.

[418] Like, I remember we drove around L .A. We were both new to L .A. And we used to just, like, drive around and get a hot dog and sing along to the rent soundtrack.

[419] Yeah.

[420] Which, like, if I did it in high school, I'd want to shoot myself in the face.

[421] But Leslie made it seem cool to do it.

[422] Right.

[423] Or, like, Leslie'd be like, yeah, wear your pajamas to this premiere.

[424] Like, who gives a shit?

[425] Like, right.

[426] Also, what was cool about Leslie is she's doing all that and she's sober.

[427] Like, I like someone who's a lunatic.

[428] Like, I feel that way, which is, like, it doesn't take drugs to make me a lunatic.

[429] Like, the only reason I ever took drugs was to be less of a lunatic.

[430] But it's interesting when you have a little bit of an identity where you feel like I'm an outsider or a misfit or I'm punk rock or all these things.

[431] And then you get kind of accepted by the popular people.

[432] It can be a weird transition, right?

[433] You can kind of either a feel fraudulent or be distrust the people who are now accepting you.

[434] There's like all these insecurities that arise, right?

[435] All of it.

[436] And also I used to have a feeling like I don't think what I do is for everyone.

[437] Like I don't think my story is for everyone.

[438] I don't think my experience is for everyone.

[439] So sometimes I'd be having these people express appreciation of what I did or like act as though they related to me. And I would have this thought, which is probably not very generous where I'd be like, but you can't possibly get it, which means that we're having a false interaction, which means this entire thing is bullshit.

[440] And like, then you turn into that like eighth grade kid who's like, I don't like Green Day anymore because everyone likes Green Day.

[441] Yes.

[442] But I felt that way about myself.

[443] Myself was Green Day.

[444] In AA, we have this expression called, we all suffer from terminal uniqueness.

[445] It's one of my favorite expressions.

[446] Yeah, we think we're so fucking unique.

[447] It's my favorite expression.

[448] My favorite thing that my mom does is like, I'll tell her something that my therapist told me, and she'll love it.

[449] And then a week later, I'll figure out that she's using it 100 % wrong to, like, support her own theories about herself.

[450] Like I told her the expression terminal uniqueness.

[451] I think Leslie told it to me. And I loved it.

[452] And I was like, you know, dad suffers from a. real case of terminal uniqueness and then later she's like you know I was thinking about it I also suffer from terminal uniqueness just being so unique that your entire life no one gets it she was not in on the joke no she also once said to me this is a favorite my therapist is big into accountability what's accountability it means everyone has to be accountable to me this is great this is there's a couple little clues of just maybe some Light narcissism is in the mix there.

[453] Just a little, no, we're not going to label her that, but just a couple of.

[454] Here's what I'm going to say about my mom.

[455] She's like my hero, but like I think as she's gotten older, she's, she would tell you this.

[456] She's going to be 69 tomorrow.

[457] Oh, okay.

[458] And sexy.

[459] Sexy 69.

[460] Yeah.

[461] But she looks good.

[462] And something about my mom is like, as she's gotten older, her capacity to like endure anyone else's bullshit, she's just a steamroller steaming through the world.

[463] Yeah.

[464] And she's just like, especially because she's a female artist.

[465] and she, like, really duped it out in the 70s and 80s to do what she does.

[466] Yes.

[467] Now she's just kind of settled into, like, eccentric glamor puss with a jewel on her shoe.

[468] And it's, like, a really, it really works for her.

[469] Oh, that's great.

[470] She's, like, earned the right to just kind of.

[471] That's 100 % the vibe.

[472] Can I just say that this is an incredibly soothing room and that, like, my friend told me recently that if you attuned to another person for 20 minutes, that it can have the same effect as, like, taking a downer, like, your body, your nervous system, your CNS, your central nervous system just like taps into a new mode.

[473] And I really feel like I came in here a little jangled, looking at my week, not taking it moment by moment, but taking it day by day in a stressed out way.

[474] And you have just like landed the plane.

[475] Oh, wonderful.

[476] Yeah.

[477] That's fantastic.

[478] Thank you for that.

[479] Now I want to go back to, so you directed a movie Tiny Furniture.

[480] And that's what opened up the door for girls.

[481] Yep.

[482] And you start getting recognized.

[483] and getting attention, and it's just very tricky to navigate.

[484] Yeah, I was 25.

[485] I had just turned 25 when we started shooting the first season.

[486] I turned 26 exactly a month after girls came out.

[487] But I was a young 26.

[488] I lived with my parents still.

[489] I'd never had a real boyfriend.

[490] Like, I got my first real boyfriend that year.

[491] Before that, I'd just sort of, like, dated people, but I'd never had like a true relationship, partnership.

[492] Yeah.

[493] I was extremely...

[494] Were you suspicious of that person?

[495] Was that part of any of this?

[496] I had aspects of maturity, but I was like pretty stunted, like fearful little person.

[497] When I finally met my long -term boyfriend, Jack, who's still a close friend of mine, we broke up last year.

[498] He's just like a fun ball of neuroses and talent and joy.

[499] But he was in a similar moment.

[500] His band had like the number one hit in America.

[501] So it was like that song We Are Young that you couldn't escape for an entire summer and now never again.

[502] And so we were sort of like in a similar mode.

[503] And so we kind of just grabbed each other like life raft style.

[504] and went for it.

[505] So I was really like a, I wasn't like a worldly 26 who I was like a freaked out 26.

[506] Right.

[507] Yeah, it was a lot.

[508] And you don't want to be the person who's like, boo -hoo, getting famous was so scary.

[509] But I was, I had a lot of trauma that I hadn't worked through.

[510] I was a super stressed out.

[511] I had like a serious physical illness that I haven't been diagnosed yet.

[512] So I wasn't like exactly primed.

[513] It wasn't like she's got a good physical fitness regime.

[514] She gets great amounts of sleep and she's ready to go.

[515] Like, it was like, this is a person who could be knocked over by the wind at any moment.

[516] Sure.

[517] And I had this weird.

[518] And again, this is a thousand percent projection.

[519] Love to hear.

[520] But look, I'm trapped in my own experience, which is.

[521] Beautifully said.

[522] I saw you on girls.

[523] And I immediately had the same reaction I think many people had, which was like, I'm so into the fact that she's this confident, getting bare naked all the time.

[524] And it's so refreshing.

[525] And it's definitely.

[526] I've not seen it.

[527] Minimally, if it was only that, like, oh, shit, it's rare that I don't, I see something new.

[528] So you already, I'm already excited and titillated by the whole thing because I've not seen it.

[529] But then the projector in me, I had this kind of theory about it.

[530] And I'm just curious if it's at all true.

[531] I'd love to hear.

[532] Okay.

[533] So when I was in junior high in high school and I felt like, well, fuck, I can't do the feathered hairstyle that everyone's doing.

[534] And I'm not pulling off the look with those jeans and that thing.

[535] I feel like I can't compete in that.

[536] And that's why punk rock appealed to me. So I was like, you know what?

[537] Fuck that.

[538] I'm having a Mohawk.

[539] I can't do that hairstyle.

[540] I would love to, but I have collics and I can't do the side part and all the stuff.

[541] So I feel so insecure trying to do this thing I don't seem to be succeeding at.

[542] Then I'm going to yell, fuck you.

[543] I'm taking myself out of this game.

[544] And this is my declaration that I don't care about your judgment.

[545] Of course, I did a lot.

[546] But it was my way of going, fuck you.

[547] I'm not playing your game.

[548] So you can judge me all you want.

[549] but then ironically, those looks worked for me and the clothes I chose worked for me. And I think people around me saw it as like, oh, that kid's so brave.

[550] He's like, he's wearing size 52 pants and a 4x champion sweatshirt and he has dreadlocks.

[551] He's so confident.

[552] But weirdly, it was a reaction to going like, I don't feel like I can do the cookie cutter version, so I'm going to reject it.

[553] And I just wondered, was your thing just going like, I feel judged by you, so I'm going to outdo you.

[554] 100 % and my thing was always like I'm going to make it I'm going to hit the punchline before you can you know when we have those experiences in formative years of not being seen the way we want to be seen like a big memory of mine is like you know in the summer before you start school you like you're like I'm remaking my identity this summer and I'm so I would think about my first day of school outfit every minute of every day I would fantasize it I would talk about two of my therapist my mom and I would game it out she was great at doing that with me my mom is like a real queen of like finding like like I'd be like listen I can't go back to school without a Kate spayed bag and she'd be like well we can't afford that but I'm gonna figure it out and we're gonna like yeah my mom was a person who like found a tomogachi somewhere in New York on the day that like no one could find a funny tomagogy she's just a queen so I remember clueless had just come out and I was obsessed with clueless and so my mom was like a specific character share okay well the whole thing the whole thing was so incredible and I was a tie obviously but I wanted to be a share sure we all wanted to be a share we all wanted to be a share And none of us were share.

[555] And none of us were...

[556] You guys are one year apart, by the way.

[557] I'm just going to say that.

[558] How old are you?

[559] 31.

[560] Love, 32, killing it.

[561] Yeah, yeah.

[562] 86, 87.

[563] Love, thank you so much for...

[564] Yeah, it's a specific...

[565] So we were in the same moment where clue was happened.

[566] It was a huge deal.

[567] So my mom was like, we found a mini backpack.

[568] I got these sketchers that had a heel.

[569] Oh, wow.

[570] Knee socks, skirt, shirt, pig tails.

[571] And then I'm like the first day of...

[572] You know, you have your real backpack.

[573] And then the mini backpack is a fashion thing.

[574] And I was like, I'm going to...

[575] back to school and everyone's going to fucking flip out.

[576] I'm suddenly going to be super popular because I'm going to, and then I got back to school literally like somehow no one had seen clueless yet.

[577] And the first thing they did is they were like, we're not doing class this morning to like bond all the fourth graders we're doing dodgeball.

[578] And so suddenly I'm like in dodgeball in my high -heeled sneakers and my mini backpack and I just remember the feeling of like pinning myself to the wall as tight as you could possibly fucking go to avoid the ball and just being like, this is hell.

[579] life is hell.

[580] That is so tie.

[581] It's so tight.

[582] It's stuck against the wall and dodge wall.

[583] But like for me that was a thing of trying and failing.

[584] Well, in your expectations versus the outcome.

[585] That's a big.

[586] And those are my favorite kinds of characters to write are people whose perception of themselves and the world's perception of themselves.

[587] There's like a crazy gap.

[588] Like those are, and those are the most fun characters to play.

[589] Yeah.

[590] A golf exists between the perceived self and the presenting self.

[591] 100%.

[592] It's a joy and a pleasure.

[593] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[594] What's up, guys?

[595] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[596] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[597] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[598] And I don't mean just friends.

[599] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[600] The list goes on.

[601] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[602] This is Kiki Pomer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[603] We've all been there.

[604] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[605] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[606] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[607] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[608] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[609] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[610] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[611] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[612] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[613] Now, I also think we had a similar experience as I understand it.

[614] My life completely changed permanently by meeting my best friend, Aaron Weekly.

[615] Aaron was your higher power.

[616] Aaron was my higher power.

[617] And I understand that you and Jemima had this.

[618] Did she change your life?

[619] 100 % because she thought I was cool.

[620] And I wasn't cool.

[621] And Jemima was cool.

[622] Amherstly, right?

[623] It's shocking.

[624] Like she has her own intense pain and challenges as she would tell you and as she would tell the world.

[625] but like she was just a person also like if she wore like a giant t -shirt from the Miami airport suddenly everyone wanted a giant t -shirt from the Miami airport like she's just she didn't follow any trend or any she never had a thing that looked like another person's thing like she was so fucking cool and when she got to I knew who she was we had met and then she switched schools to my school she was a ninth grader and I was an eighth grader so it's like not that usual for a high schooler to talk to a middle schooler oh yeah and one day she She was, like, sitting on the stairs, and she was, like, come here.

[626] And, like, I remember the feeling of her, like, patting the stairs by her and me being, like, I'm going to have to sit here.

[627] And then it was just, like, it was on.

[628] And it took me time to realize that, like, she wasn't about to play a prank on me. Right, like, dump on pig's blood over your head at the homecoming dance.

[629] But she's, and the thing that's amazing about her is, like, she literally remembers the name.

[630] Like, I remember everyone we went to high school with.

[631] I remember how they looked at me. I remember when I gamed the whole thing out.

[632] Jamima literally can't Like if I say We had the exact same school experience If I say to her like Becky droves Yeah she would never have no clue She doesn't remember a single fucking person From her high school She doesn't remember people she made out with They probably had very little power over her She somehow had this crazy compass right She missed like two months of school year Like the most miserable days for me Were the days that Jemima was just like insane barts Like in person Like Her life was so fucking She once called me and was like I remember I was my like landline ring and it was Drima and she was like, if we're going to St. Barts, if you can get a ticket, two weeks, you're not going to have to pay for anything.

[633] And I like went to my parents and I was like, something amazing happened.

[634] If we can get a ticket to St. Barts.

[635] And my parents were like, you've school tomorrow.

[636] We're not buying you a fucking ticket to St. Barts.

[637] Are you insane?

[638] Yeah.

[639] What on earth business was a -14 year old is allowed to buy a ticket to St. Barre's going to go hang out with Russian oligarchs popping like.

[640] In the middle of February On a school day But Jemima went Yeah Jemima was always somewhere She was always like God, she was like a character in Clueless She was share She's a full share I mean it's like She's a share She's Edie Cedric She's all the things Also the weirdest detail about Jemima Is she's always early Oh And she counterintuitive I'm like an anxious guilty Like fastidious person Who's late to everything And Jemima's like a person who like seems not to give a shit and has like never missed an appointment in her life.

[641] Yeah.

[642] So she's always surprised.

[643] She's always swerving.

[644] Is Aaron Weekly still your best friend?

[645] Oh yeah.

[646] He's coming this weekend with his kid and we're going to party.

[647] That's so nice.

[648] Is he a punk?

[649] Yeah, we were we were punks.

[650] He was one of the toughest kids in all of Detroit.

[651] Sweetest guy, nicest smile.

[652] Also could knock guys out who messed with us.

[653] It was, I felt very safe.

[654] We both have very fucked up childhoods.

[655] We didn't have males around us.

[656] We snuggled as kids.

[657] My mom thought we were gay for a while.

[658] Like we were each other's male presence.

[659] Were you kind of Aaron Weekly and you kind of dadded each other up?

[660] Big time.

[661] You reparented each other.

[662] Yeah.

[663] And I won't ever love a human being in my life like I love Aaron Weekly.

[664] I mean, I just were fused on a cellular level.

[665] That's really nice.

[666] So does Jemima give you a confidence that then you may, maybe build a whole house on?

[667] Is that the foundation or am I overstating that?

[668] No, it's pretty big.

[669] The Jemima thing's pretty big.

[670] And she's such a big part of like, like, you know, she's a big part of everything I've ever done professionally, which is not an accident that I was like, you come with me. Like it made me feel like I could make a movie that she was there.

[671] It made me feel like I could make a show that she was there.

[672] It still makes me feel like I can do it.

[673] And she didn't necessarily want to act, correct?

[674] When you put her on girls?

[675] She was like, she tried to quit like three times.

[676] She tried to quit after the first season.

[677] She tried to quit after the second season.

[678] Finally, after the fourth season, And she was like, I think I'm staying.

[679] And I was like, well, good, because you signed a contract for six years.

[680] Like, hey.

[681] That's convenient.

[682] She just, like, didn't give a shit.

[683] And now she's like, now I really want to make more things with her in them.

[684] And I think we're figuring out what they are.

[685] But she's also a painter and she has two kids.

[686] She's someone who is, like, a very rich life.

[687] Like, she'll go on some kick and she'll literally buy, like, 19 vintage baby shirts.

[688] She does not currently have a baby.

[689] Right.

[690] And she'll buy, like, 19 vintage baby shirts.

[691] with like Disney characters on them from the 40s.

[692] She should be like a curator at a super fancy boutique.

[693] And the shoes I'm wearing today, she had them at my house.

[694] And I just thought they were so cool.

[695] And I said, can I have them?

[696] And she went, yeah, they were $5.

[697] And I'm like, they're the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

[698] They are beautiful.

[699] And still every time.

[700] And a lot of times I'll say, can I have it about a thing?

[701] And it'll be really fancy.

[702] And she'll say, yeah.

[703] Like, I'm looking for a diamond earring of hers that she lent me that I now can't locate.

[704] Sure.

[705] Which is rude.

[706] It's going to happen.

[707] Yeah.

[708] Yeah, but if someone lends you enough diamond earrings, you're just...

[709] Yeah, well, they'll stop eventually alone.

[710] That's when you'll know if she's actually pissed.

[711] You'll ask her to borrow something.

[712] She'll say, I can't do it anymore.

[713] She'll say, I can't do it.

[714] I'm done.

[715] Yeah, this is an unhealthy relationship.

[716] But our whole dynamic, like, for years, she's been like, you know, like a big thing was I was sick for a long time, so we'd make a plan because I'd really want to do it.

[717] And then I'd be like, I'm sick.

[718] And she'd be like, fine.

[719] And I'd know that that meant she was mad.

[720] And then I'd call her and she'd just be like, I don't know if I can do this again.

[721] I don't want to make plans to be more.

[722] And then really what she wanted was for me to be like, I'm sorry, I love you or do you want to come over?

[723] I'd say, do you want to come over?

[724] And then she'd go, no, but like she wanted to be asked.

[725] Like, I've learned, I've leaned into more like what her language is.

[726] And now I don't fight it.

[727] I roll with it.

[728] And that feels better.

[729] It is hard to know, especially when you're younger, you have all these definitions of what it means for you to love somebody.

[730] So I've had friends like this where they just kept failing me in my mind because they were doing the thing.

[731] that if I did it, it would be a real loud declaration that I don't care about you.

[732] But then you're going to remember, like, everyone's weird family values some other aspect.

[733] So mine values like loyalty in being there for each other.

[734] So if somebody, in my opinion, demonstrated a lack of loyalty, that was, you might as well tell me, fuck you, I don't care about you.

[735] Yeah.

[736] But in their family, it's probably something else.

[737] And I'm probably triggering those things.

[738] It's all very confusing, right?

[739] It is.

[740] And you have to realize, like, learning to show up for people the way they want you to, it's taken me a while to be like oh you learn more the longer you're on this planet like you're not born knowing how to show up for everyone and so your 20s like my entire 20s for lots of reasons I felt like I was fucking up all the time and I've been like why are my 30s easier I'm like oh maybe I like no more thing sure and can avoid situation I felt I felt like my 20s were me constantly walking into situations and going how did this suddenly become a disaster right and I did a lot of how is this happening to me?

[741] And now I think a lot more about like, how am I happening to this?

[742] Yes.

[743] Well, what people don't seem to recognize, and again, A is pretty good at pointing this out, that self -aggrandizement is equal in every way to self -pity.

[744] Yep.

[745] They're both egomaniacal, narcissistic places to think that either you're so important or that you're the victim of some grand universe conspiracy.

[746] You've made yourself way too important in both scenarios.

[747] Well, I think when people hear the term narcissistic, They often think it means somebody who, like, has a really great, huge sense of themselves.

[748] But I think some of the biggest narcissists I know are some of the most self -hating, depressed, tragic figures because they have a sense that, like, all of the universe's wrongs are in reaction to them.

[749] Right.

[750] Well, yeah, another thing, again, I'm on my eighth AA slogan.

[751] My favorite one is, I'm not much, but I'm all I think about.

[752] I like someone told me about when an alcoholic's family member, goes into Al -Anon.

[753] Great.

[754] Now there's two people thinking about you all the time.

[755] Well, they already wore.

[756] That's why you were a good match.

[757] Yeah, totally.

[758] But you don't have any addictive qualities or?

[759] I do.

[760] You do?

[761] I do.

[762] Yeah, because you seem like a candidate for it.

[763] You said you had trauma.

[764] You don't have to tell me what it was, but generally.

[765] There's a lot of trauma.

[766] There's a lot of anxiety.

[767] There's a lot of, this feels like actually a safe place to say this.

[768] I wasn't going to and you'll tell me what you think because I think it's such a kind of, it's something I will talk about more.

[769] and I'm writing about now, which has been really interesting.

[770] But I was thinking as I came here, I was like, I mean, I was going to tell you privately, but I was like, do I say this?

[771] Do I not?

[772] Because it's such a, like, you don't want to sort of advertise it and seem like you're so proud of yourself.

[773] But I've been sober for six months.

[774] Oh, you have?

[775] I have.

[776] Oh, that's great.

[777] I was.

[778] Well, can I guess what happened?

[779] Yeah.

[780] This could be a fun guess.

[781] Can't wait.

[782] So you have anxiety.

[783] Really bad.

[784] The biggest epidemic no one talks about.

[785] Everyone knows about the opioid epidemic.

[786] love where you're going with this.

[787] But what people don't recognize is that the benzo epidemic is equally as rampant.

[788] You've hit the nail on that.

[789] It's a great, great tool at the beginning of it.

[790] If you have anxiety, Xanax is great, Atavans, great.

[791] Suddenly you can operate in the world.

[792] Yes.

[793] But it is a very...

[794] My particular passion was Clonopin.

[795] Okay, Clonopin.

[796] Yeah.

[797] But it's a very diminished returns answer to that problem, as is our opiates.

[798] So is that it?

[799] Was it Benzos?

[800] 100%.

[801] Clonopin.

[802] It is a very...

[803] rough hang clonopin and they say the hard one of the hardest things the detox from is benzos it's shocking it's shocking what it feels like and it was a real slow i mean i've had experience i've had my share of fair share of opiate experience because i've been so sick at times right i've had like you know 10 abdominal surgeries in the last three years so wow so i know what that looks like and i've had to take opiates for extended periods of time three two three weeks getting off them doesn't feel great it's not great yeah it's not great you're not great you're You've got a pretty hardcore 24 to 46 hours.

[804] Yeah.

[805] 24 to 48 hours.

[806] I know how many hours are in two days.

[807] But the thing about - A lot of time on the toilet too.

[808] A lot of time on the toilet.

[809] A lot of time like, like, a lot of time to read a magazine, but you don't want to.

[810] So I know what that feels like.

[811] Yeah.

[812] The Benzo thing is crazy because it's also, firstly, let's just say, it is the most normalized, especially in our industry.

[813] Everyone's got a fucking pill in their purse a thing in their bag I want to make sure I have it with me because I'm going to this event I'm going to take half of his annex I have an early call a lot fly a lot And I was a real just like my I remember my mom saying to me and this is not me blaming her when I was a kid She was like there's no reason to ever suffer yeah there's no reason to ever suffer and when my anxiety was really bad as a kid she'd say we're gonna get you on medication because there's no reason to ever suffer Sure and she's right there's no reason to put your you don't need to to be a hero about things, but I really took that to heart.

[814] And when I was having crazy anxiety and having to show up for things that I didn't feel equipped to show up for, I was like, there's no reason for me to ever suffer.

[815] And at the beginning, or you're also probably evaluating, well, I can't do that things without some help.

[816] So I just won't be doing it, but I know I need to do it.

[817] I know I need to do it.

[818] And when I take a clap and I can do it.

[819] Like suddenly I felt the thing everybody talks about in the rooms, everybody talks about in sorority, which is I feel like the person.

[820] person I was supposed to be.

[821] Yeah, for me, alcohol, and this guy we're friends with Gordon Keith, he said at best where it's like, we're all born two beers away from being happy.

[822] So good.

[823] And, yeah, it was too clonopin away from being happy.

[824] Yeah.

[825] And it wasn't just happy.

[826] It was like, it was like suddenly I felt like the part of me that I knew was there was like freed up to do her thing.

[827] Right.

[828] Yeah, it quiets the monster upstairs enough that you can be your best self.

[829] And I didn't have any trouble getting a doctor to tell.

[830] tell me, no, you've got serious anxiety issues.

[831] You should be doing that.

[832] You should be taking this.

[833] This is how you should be existing.

[834] Right.

[835] So it stopped being, I take one when I fly.

[836] Mm -hmm.

[837] And it started being like, I take one when I'm awake.

[838] Right, right.

[839] Sure.

[840] Well, my eyes are open.

[841] Yeah.

[842] And then I was like, suddenly.

[843] And you build up a tolerance pretty quick to benzos.

[844] Very fast.

[845] And so I took them on and off.

[846] And then I was diagnosed with pretty serious PTSD after my, I have like a few sexual traumas in my past.

[847] Then I had all these surgeries.

[848] Then I had my.

[849] hysterectomy after a period of really extreme pain and I was diagnosed with PTSD and I was it basically it stopped feeling like I had panic attacks and it started feeling like I was a living panic attack like I just the only thing that was notable were the moments in the day where I didn't feel like I was going to barf and faint and so at that point and the reason I talk about this is because I think that I know deeply that I'm not alone and during that time you know and by the way I was taking medication and it was, I was taking clonopin.

[850] And at that point, it wasn't making it better.

[851] But I just thought, if I don't take this, how much worse will it get?

[852] Well, that's the thing is I'm happy for people to do anything that, as you say, prevent suffering.

[853] And David Harbourer was on here.

[854] And he has the best grasp of all this way better than I understand it, because he knows depression really, really well.

[855] He has a great take on it for what that's worth.

[856] If you want to hear it.

[857] So I'm out of my depth when I say.

[858] But just in general, I don't think you you should suffer.

[859] But the reason I'll come out on this side of it is it'd be great if it really worked.

[860] But it doesn't.

[861] It doesn't.

[862] It doesn't.

[863] It works for a decade.

[864] But then it does stop working.

[865] And at that point, now you're double fucked because the thing that did work doesn't work.

[866] And it's making you more anxious and you're having crazy rebound anxiety throughout the day.

[867] And something I feel really blessed about is it stopped working.

[868] And within, I mean, if I look back, there was a solid three years where I was, to put it lightly, misusing benzos.

[869] even though it was all quote unquote doctor prescribed and I had convinced somebody to tell me that this was the way I can recognize now the way that my own like manipulation played a part.

[870] Sure.

[871] There's a lot of people in A that said I had a back problem for eight years and when I got sober with the back problem went away.

[872] Totally.

[873] Well, I just thought my thought was like, I'm not in pain because I take pills.

[874] I take pills because I'm in pain and I'm not anxious because I take pills.

[875] I take pills because I'm anxious.

[876] And then suddenly you realize that entire thing is turned on its head and the doctor who helped me detox off of benzos, which is like, by the way, like, the one, again, the reason I talk about this isn't just to be like, look at me. I did it.

[877] It's to be like, people should know, like, nobody I know who is prescribed these medications is told, by the way, when you try to get off this, it's going to be like the most hellacious acid trip you've ever had where you're fucking clutching the walls and your hair is blowing off your head and you can't believe you found yourself in this situation.

[878] Like now the literal smell of the inside of pill bottles makes me want to throw up.

[879] Like it's like the amount of trauma I have just around that.

[880] And I still feel like my brain is recalibrating itself to be able to experience anxiety.

[881] But even though the peaks of joy that I've experienced in my six months of sobriety are there's nothing else like it on this planet.

[882] Yeah.

[883] People don't recognize his pills and booze and all that stuff does very effectively help you deal with the lows.

[884] But it also then it lops off the highs.

[885] You just start living in a very finite zone of basically no feelings.

[886] No feelings.

[887] And I look back at who I thought that medication was allowing me to be more myself.

[888] And I actually see, I can see all the things that sort of the world wrought upon me. Like I don't blame myself for my illness.

[889] I don't blame myself for the sexual abuse I experienced.

[890] I don't blame myself for the physical abuse I experienced.

[891] I don't blame myself for the challenges of being a woman in this world.

[892] and an anxious woman in this world and living in this body.

[893] But I do see the way that I medicated myself, negatively impacted people around me, and decimated my decision -making and hurt my creativity.

[894] And so I just feel literally like on my knees grateful every single day.

[895] At my worst moment in my life, I mean, yes, really hard things had happened to me. And I'm able to more clearly now see what they were and like how they were turning points in my life.

[896] And like, I always thought my whole life, I thought, I'm going to work my ass off.

[897] And then I'm going to, when I'm 30, I'm going to get pregnant.

[898] And that's going to slow me down.

[899] And then when I was 30, I literally, that part of my body revolted.

[900] I had 10, nine surgeries to try to be able to keep my uterus.

[901] Ultimately, I couldn't.

[902] And it was the deepest grief I'd ever had in my life.

[903] But before that, at my lowest point, I was in a relationship with a really amazing loving person.

[904] I had a couple golden globes.

[905] I'd won a couple golden globes.

[906] I had an incredible career.

[907] I had a family that loved me. I owned three houses.

[908] And I felt like I would go outside and like trees would look like they were menacing me. Like it was so dark.

[909] And the thing that I think is so scary about and really what I care about now, like I spent a lot of time I'm 20s going, what is my cause?

[910] Because I care about everything.

[911] I care about human rights and justice.

[912] So it's like it's easy for me to throw my name behind a billion liberal causes.

[913] that are meaningful to me, but the thing that I care the most about is the intersection for women of trauma, mental health, and addiction.

[914] Because I just think that in that nexus is like, I can see how I would have been lost to the kind of like gravitational pull of my own pain and drowning it out.

[915] And I think we lose so many good women.

[916] We talk a lot about like, what are things that are holding women back?

[917] And one of the things that I think is holding women back besides, you know, We know it's societal bias.

[918] We know that it's, you know, there's a pay gap.

[919] We know, but also, like, the lack of resources around, like, tons of women have experienced trauma.

[920] We think PTSD is, like, reserved for Iraqi soldiers or whatever, but tons of women are experiencing incredible amounts of trauma.

[921] As this past week with Kavanaugh showed us, like, the rain hotline went down because so many women were retramatized by listening to that testimony.

[922] And so I feel like my job having survived and, you know, by the grace of God, survived.

[923] every day and staying clean and staying in the world.

[924] Like I feel like my job is to try to like give a voice to that story.

[925] Now, as I've followed you over the years, what has infuriated me several times in where you and I diverge and you're so much more evolved than I am is you are very liberal.

[926] You're outspoken proponent for a lot of meaningful change.

[927] And yet you've been devoured by the left like five or six times.

[928] Yeah.

[929] And it always, fuck, it infuriates me. It's one of my complaints about our side is that we just can't wait to devour one another.

[930] And you just don't see that on the right as much.

[931] They've definitely figured out how to keep the cross talk to a minimum, so to speak.

[932] Like they are really like they're in step with each other, even if they privately fucking despise each other.

[933] Yeah, like I one time stupidly referred to Riz Ahmed on Ellen as being Indian.

[934] and he is Pakistani, as it turns out.

[935] I mean, he's lived in England, so he's neither.

[936] But I did that and I got, you know, several hundred people calling me a racist on Twitter.

[937] And my knee -jerk reaction was like, you could be tweeting David Duke, you're a racist, but you're choosing to use that energy on me. It just feels like, aren't there bigger fish to fry than me saying that?

[938] Why is that where your energy is going?

[939] And I get defensive, but I've seen you in the face of.

[940] that, like, apologize to people when I personally would have either been incapable or I just didn't think they deserved an apology.

[941] You seem to have this really benevolent, like, it doesn't, it's not going to kill you or pain you to just acknowledge that they're hurt and keep it moving.

[942] How do you, how do you go through those?

[943] And what happens when those things happen to you?

[944] I've for sure made mistakes and I've made big mistakes.

[945] And it's funny because I was never a drinker.

[946] I was never a pot smoker.

[947] I never did quote unquote recreational drug so it never occurred to me that my judgment could be impaired in any way because I was like I'm just taking the medication I need to be alive right and now I look and I'm like no all my senses weren't intact and maybe I wasn't being as sensitive or as self -aware as I could have been I'm not saying I mean there are plenty of times that I did things people didn't like where I was stone cold anxiety ridden sober but there were also times that like I think my judgment was generally impaired by my obsessive desire to escape my own pain and I think that the thing about apologizing and now there's like a whole narrative of like all Lena Dunham ever does is get into shit and apologize for it but I'm like isn't that our job?

[948] Isn't that any long term relationship is just like a fucking series of apologies?

[949] Well the night step's gonna be much easier for you than it is for most people.

[950] Nobody wants my apologies anymore.

[951] They're like we've heard it, we're done.

[952] My new thing is I'm like, how do I?

[953] Because I'm such an obsessive apologizer like someone like crashes into me and I say I'm sorry like I can't.

[954] My dad used to make a rule.

[955] He'd say no more saying I'm sorry today and no more saying I love you.

[956] Because it would be like I'd wake up and I'd be like, sorry, I love you.

[957] I'm sorry.

[958] I like everything.

[959] And he was like, no, it's done.

[960] So like how to meaningfully apologize.

[961] And how to apologize to people in the way that they want to be apologized to.

[962] Like I want a super verbose apology in which you explained to me what a wonderful person I am and how I've changed your life.

[963] Somebody else might just want you to fucking show up for their birthday party and shut the fuck up.

[964] Right, right.

[965] Stop talking about yourself for five seconds.

[966] I don't want to talk about it.

[967] Can we just like go get sushi and you can be the fuck.

[968] quiet is like yeah yeah so i'm working that can be an amends for some yes a living a living amends so to speak yeah was there one though that was harder for you where you were like i'm about to apologize to somebody that i don't feel like deserves an apology i've had a couple public apologies where i've been like i can't fucking believe i have to say this right now like i cannot believe i'm trying to think if there's anyone that really stand out to me right now there's a few where i've been like maybe this is a good point but the person who brought this up is a fucking asshole right i can't Like, like, I'll look at their Twitter and I'll be like, this person's called out 72 celebrities in the last 32 hours.

[969] Oh, it's so helpful to occasionally look at people's timelines.

[970] Is that what it's called?

[971] Yeah, like, someone will be mad at me. And then it'll be like, at Britney Spears, you're a twat.

[972] And I'm like, oh, you're not regulating your emotions at all.

[973] No. And then I quickly realize like, oh, this person is in the hunt of prestige in a call out culture in the most generic way possible.

[974] And like, I don't need to be fodder for this person.

[975] Whatever.

[976] I just let it blow past me. But it is weird because we have access to too many people and we hear from too many people.

[977] And just no matter what, it's hard to know if what you said was 98 % received and appreciated.

[978] Or if what you said is actually offensive to 40 % of people.

[979] It's almost impossible to know.

[980] It's kind of like when you have a great meal, rarely does someone call the manager over to say like, hey, just want to let you know my server was awesome and the food was great.

[981] But if you find a toenail in your steak, you're going to fucking tell them.

[982] They're going to tell them.

[983] It's a much bigger motivator.

[984] So it's hard to know what your message, whether, you know, ultimately in a utilitarian sense, it was a win or if it was a blunder, right?

[985] 100%.

[986] And it's also just like at a certain point, and this has been a big part of the last.

[987] I keep saying the last six months.

[988] And that is six months ago is when I was like, no more substances that could alter my mind or going into my body.

[989] But the last six months are also when I was like, I need to take care of myself or I'm never going to be able to make anything again.

[990] Like I had to look at my life and be like, I want to be an old lady.

[991] Like my favorite filmmaker is Agnes Bardun.

[992] She's French and she's in her late 80s, early 90s.

[993] And she was just on the cover of interview magazine.

[994] She's a chic bitch.

[995] And it's like, I want to be fucking 88 and waking up at 4 in the morning to like write my magnum opus.

[996] I don't want to be 34 and like withering away in my own guest house.

[997] Yeah.

[998] So it's like you have to just really then at certain point you have to go like, okay, here's where the rubber hits the road.

[999] But like, I'm going to start taking care of myself because it's no longer glamorous for me to stay up all night, drinking bottled Starbucks and like pounding through this and then like withering away with anxiety tomorrow.

[1000] And so a big part of my last six months has also been like, how am I going to be cool with the gap?

[1001] As we're talking about gap and perception between how the public sees me and who I know I am.

[1002] Yeah.

[1003] It's not even about how I see myself.

[1004] It's like when I close my eyes and I meditate like the warm, like light of my own like, essential being is like in direct opposition to the picture that's been painted of me. And so like, how am I going to be okay with that?

[1005] And it turns out the answer is just like minute by minute, hour by hour, like trying to stay connected to that feeling is how you're going to be okay with it.

[1006] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[1007] If you dare.

[1008] So I've only hung out with Jemima once or twice.

[1009] I think Kristen knows her and she came over one time to our house.

[1010] I said to her like, hey, can I talk to you on the side here about something?

[1011] I did a movie with Adam Driver and I loved him from girls.

[1012] I was excited to meet him.

[1013] And it turns out where he's from a little town of Michigan right next to where my grandparents owned a motel.

[1014] No way.

[1015] And we're going to get on famously.

[1016] And I was like, oh, my God, you're from Coldwater.

[1017] Like my grandparents hotel was in Sturgis.

[1018] And he's like, oh, okay.

[1019] And I was like, oh, really, dude.

[1020] That's that.

[1021] And that was that.

[1022] And then we had to promote this movie together.

[1023] What was the movie that you did with Adam?

[1024] This is where I leave you.

[1025] This is where I leave you.

[1026] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1027] And I tried maybe three other times to connect with him.

[1028] Never.

[1029] Door was never cracked.

[1030] I kept knocking on it.

[1031] So I said to Jamima, I said, was it me?

[1032] And she goes, no, no, he was kind of like that.

[1033] And it drove all of us craziest girls.

[1034] And I was like, what a superpower.

[1035] He's like easy.

[1036] To be smart enough to just not give any.

[1037] We were all, I have to say, and I can say this to yours out.

[1038] We were nuts for Adam driver tension.

[1039] Because he gives it in dribs and drabs.

[1040] He's not mean.

[1041] Right.

[1042] He's just coming in.

[1043] He's doing his job so well.

[1044] But he's not looking to like gab with you about your cat at craft service.

[1045] Like he is doing his fucking job.

[1046] And I think you can tell when he does press.

[1047] Like Adam is there to like do the best version of the fucking thing and get out.

[1048] And I definitely like as a, especially before I was like a little more like emotionally regulated as like a like a people pleasing.

[1049] Yes.

[1050] Approval junkie.

[1051] Approval junkie.

[1052] I was constantly putting myself in the path of Adam Driver, if you're listening, I'm sorry about how many times you were just looking at your script and I was like standing in front of you presenting you with two different apples and asking which one you might like to eat.

[1053] Like I was just and then if I like couldn't get it, I'd be like, did I do something?

[1054] Is there something like Adam's behavior?

[1055] It was a great example of like my narcissism was me being like, Adam seems a little tired today.

[1056] I don't know what I did.

[1057] And it's like, maybe you just, like, he was, like, working on his lines.

[1058] Like, but yes, it's a superpower and ladies go crazy, Fred and driver.

[1059] Oh, he had me on the run.

[1060] I got no business with him.

[1061] We're not going to fuck.

[1062] Here's the thing about Adam.

[1063] He's, like, the coolest and in every sense of the word.

[1064] Like, I always think the definition of, like, a cool, cool person is, like, they kind of don't seem like they're, like, moving on your time clock.

[1065] But I have, like, never known a proer.

[1066] and he's so good on S &L.

[1067] I didn't see it yet, but I'm curious.

[1068] He's always graded it because it's an interesting thing, which is like he's, you know, like when you meet him, quite a, quite a serious focus gentleman, but he's down to clown.

[1069] In the right context, he's down to clown.

[1070] He's a deeply supportive person to do a scene with, like, even if he just puts your hand on your shoulder, you're like, he is all about, like, making the work work.

[1071] Like, it's the only time I've ever really felt like I was like an actor is acting with Adam because I'm like, almost like, because he can make like a fucking rock feel like, they're going to win an Oscar because he's so good and he's delivering you your thing like on a platter.

[1072] That's how I felt with Peter Krausa.

[1073] I was like, oh, he's sucking me into his.

[1074] Oh, yeah, that makes so much.

[1075] His singular.

[1076] Special little world.

[1077] Yes, like he is so trained and so skilled that he would create a reality for both of us.

[1078] He'd suck me into his little bubble.

[1079] When you did that on girls and you did this punk rock thing and you were new and you did all this stuff and then you inadvertently became like the face of bravery was that like what i didn't mean to do that i didn't mean to become the face of anything and then i had a while where i bought into my own mythology and i was like okay i was made the face of this thing so i better do this thing and something i've really been enjoying we're now living in a time like when i first started piping up about stuff like a lot of celebrities wouldn't say who they were voting for they wouldn't talk about politics they wouldn't talk about abortion like it wasn't now that we're living in a Hellscape.

[1080] People are talking about it.

[1081] A lot of people are talking about it.

[1082] And suddenly I've been doing this and where I'm like, okay, a lot of very cool women have this covered.

[1083] I did it for a while.

[1084] Now I'm going to hang back.

[1085] So I talk about things if I think it's very, very important or I have a particular take on it or I try to offer my support where it's needed.

[1086] But I don't like think of myself.

[1087] Like I'm just like, okay, I'm off in my cave writing.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] Do you have a type of guy?

[1090] Do you have a dream type?

[1091] That's such a great question and it makes me feel good to be asked type of guy.

[1092] I mean, it's changed over time.

[1093] When I was younger, I was like, I've always liked a musician.

[1094] Do you have like a favorite heartthrob from childhood?

[1095] Well, this isn't really weird.

[1096] Yeah, I have a couple, but like, I mean, I was obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio when everybody else was.

[1097] But it was like a sickening love.

[1098] Like, I was sick over him.

[1099] I had it for Neb Campbell or my stomach hurt so bad when I'd watch party of five.

[1100] But then the person who I felt.

[1101] And I've told him this, he knows, in high school, the person who I, like, wanted to shoot myself over.

[1102] Yes.

[1103] I shouldn't be using gun metaphors at this time in history.

[1104] But if the person I wanted to, like.

[1105] Oh, is it better if you want to slit your carotic artery?

[1106] I know.

[1107] Sometimes people on Twitter will be like, like, I'll be like, oh, that makes me want to come myself.

[1108] You're being so casual about mental illness.

[1109] It's like, at a certain point, I'm like, I'm so mentally ill. I have in my whole life.

[1110] And I also feel like you don't owe the world.

[1111] Like, when you've dealt with trauma, like the last thing you need.

[1112] is to have your approach to managing it.

[1113] Your healthy approach to manage it, which is humor.

[1114] I would argue humor is the healthiest way around these issues.

[1115] Like, I'll apologize for a lot of shit, but I'm not going to apologize for, like, using humor to get through my life.

[1116] Yes.

[1117] So that I don't roll off.

[1118] Well, it's like when you have a parent die, the shit you and your siblings joke about, like the stuff my brother and I were joking about while my dad was dying was horrific.

[1119] Anyone that would have viewed it, but man, it helped us so much.

[1120] It's so fun and funny when it's happening.

[1121] Like when my grandma was dying, I had the best time with my cousin.

[1122] We love her grandma.

[1123] We were so stanch as it was horrible.

[1124] All the women were around her and it was like, you know, it was peaceful -ish, but it was really stressful.

[1125] And we were in the room with her.

[1126] And my cousin and I kept doing this pose like we were Japanese tourists in front of it.

[1127] Like, because you know, when you see those pictures online, it's like a tourist and they don't realize they're in front of like a car accident.

[1128] Yes, yes.

[1129] We thought it was funny to like kind of stand in front of our grandma and like flash a peace sign and smile to each other.

[1130] And then my cousin was like, we can't do this.

[1131] I could lose my job.

[1132] And I was like, we're in a room alone.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] And this is making us feel better.

[1135] And grandma would want us to feel good.

[1136] Yes.

[1137] Grandma likes jokes.

[1138] She's just in a coma right now.

[1139] I shared this in Toronto last weekend, which was I even had that, I asked a nurse to take the photo of me. And I held a pillow over my dad's face while he was sleeping.

[1140] And I sent it to my brother and said, just tying things up here in Detroit.

[1141] I mean, it's horrific.

[1142] But he and I were both.

[1143] It was so funny to us.

[1144] Of course.

[1145] And it's like, and by the way, the nurses know that you need it.

[1146] The amount of jokes I made when I was in the hospital for 11 days last fall for my, it'll be a year since I had my hysterectomy in November.

[1147] And I was in the hospital for 11 days leading up to the district.

[1148] My mom had it when we were kids.

[1149] That's the only time I've ever seen her taken out.

[1150] Oh, it was so rough.

[1151] And like I was sick to the core of my being.

[1152] And I held up this sign.

[1153] This made me. And I've never shared this picture.

[1154] but it makes me so happy.

[1155] It's me in my hospital gown, standing up, like, you know, when you have to take your dumb, like, IV stand to the bathroom.

[1156] Yeah.

[1157] And I'm holding up a small sign that someone gave me that says Trump loves rape.

[1158] And it's, my favorite protest picture.

[1159] And my mom kept being like, I'm going to take it, but don't post it.

[1160] Don't post it.

[1161] Our poor parents that have had to go along with all over.

[1162] Oh, my mom took, like, the most beautiful picture of me in the hospital.

[1163] And she was like, if you're going to post anything, post this.

[1164] It was like, like, me sleeping.

[1165] And I was like, This is disgusting and embarrassing.

[1166] Wait, but you never finished your sentence who you were going to shoot yourself over.

[1167] Jimmy Fallon.

[1168] Oh, wow.

[1169] It was illness -inducing how much I loved him.

[1170] I thought about him all of the time.

[1171] I literally thought about him all the time.

[1172] And I've told him that.

[1173] I mean, I was sprung on Jimmy Fallon.

[1174] So what was the moment when you got to tell him?

[1175] Were you like, I told him on his talk show.

[1176] I told him before I was just like, you don't know.

[1177] That's a safe place, actually.

[1178] Yeah.

[1179] It is.

[1180] You just tell him in a hallway.

[1181] He doesn't have a lot of wiggle room.

[1182] But if it's a talk show, it's like there's the inborn boundary of the talk show.

[1183] And he was so nice about it.

[1184] And, you know, now he's like an adult man with kids and the whole thing.

[1185] He's not like, you know, like a 24 year old and a giant sweater.

[1186] Like that's...

[1187] Well, us married guys with kids, we live off of those comments.

[1188] It can get us through a lot just to even know someone felt that way about us.

[1189] Of course.

[1190] And like, if I hear someone thinks literally anyone becomes attractive to me when I hear they think I'm attractive.

[1191] Oh, me too.

[1192] So the most...

[1193] You feel the opposite.

[1194] I feel the opposite.

[1195] I feel truly the...

[1196] opposite.

[1197] I'm like, oh, there's something wrong with you.

[1198] But yeah, but that, but that's nice that you feel Yeah.

[1199] I love having crush his hat on me. Anyone can become appealing.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] Again, I should be more evolved than this.

[1202] But in fact, I've said this on here.

[1203] You could say anything about me. And I mean it.

[1204] You could go, Dax is the dumbest fucking idiot and his nose is so gross.

[1205] I want to fuck him.

[1206] I'm so good.

[1207] I'm like, I didn't even, I no longer heard the first two things.

[1208] You just heard them.

[1209] Somehow those gross things about me make you horny for me and now everything else is out the window everything else is out the window will this stay your office forever sadly this is getting torn down but I'm building something right behind us that will become this new office that's so cool and are you here all the time Monica I am here all the time yeah so cool between her between him and Kristen yeah you're here all the time yeah we're in a three week marriage it's a lifestyle it's a lifestyle yeah I love it now I'm really socked in to telling stories.

[1210] Like, it's really where I want to be and where my energy is going.

[1211] And the idea of nailing my public persona or, like, killing it in my public life has really become, like, something that was interesting for me that happened last week is, like, I did a big, long interview for a profile that's coming out around my new show.

[1212] And I, for the first time, was like, I didn't say anything funny and I don't care.

[1213] Yeah.

[1214] I was so not funny.

[1215] I was just like, yeah, I have PTSD.

[1216] Mm. I didn't feel good last year.

[1217] It was horrible year.

[1218] I like to be at home with my cats.

[1219] I like to watercolor.

[1220] This is my show.

[1221] It was just like the desire to present because the desire to be funny and the desire to be liked and the desire to present has actually gotten me in a lot of trouble in the past.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] Oh, sure.

[1224] It's really fucked me over.

[1225] Oh, I've gone way too far in it.

[1226] I've gone too far.

[1227] It has not been good.

[1228] It has not been a good scene.

[1229] Oh, I made a joke.

[1230] I mean, you've done obviously Hollywood foreign press stuff.

[1231] I just did this week.

[1232] And for those who don't understand what Hollywood Foreign Presses is they're basically, they've left their country of origin and they are international journalists that cover an area, their country, Croatia, whatever.

[1233] But they live here in Hollywood.

[1234] And you do these kind of big interviews where there's like 30 of them and then they disseminate that to their home country and it gets up around the world.

[1235] Well, because they're all foreign and humor and comedy is pretty regional, you can get into hot water pretty easy making jokes in front of them.

[1236] which I did.

[1237] One time we were doing a parenthood panel.

[1238] And the question was like, we'll notice Crosby has a black child.

[1239] He is with a black woman, but you never talk about, she is black.

[1240] He's trying to ask like, why don't we ever address the fact that we're in an interracial relationship.

[1241] And I know Catooms is like, doesn't really want to handle this question.

[1242] So I'm like, I'm going to let him off the hook.

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] Oh, he goes, why did you choose to have?

[1245] That's what it was.

[1246] Why did you choose to put Crosby in a interracial relationship?

[1247] And why don't you talk about it?

[1248] And I said, well, I got this.

[1249] You know, the show's based on the movie.

[1250] And in the movie, my character had a half black child.

[1251] And once you have a half black child, well, to be honest, we were just painted into a corner.

[1252] And I see all these people either writing in their, with their pens, this direct quote, or typing my direct quote, not a single chuckle.

[1253] And I realized, oh, this was not obvious to them that I was being.

[1254] funny and sarcastic.

[1255] Someone's going to read in Croatia that they were painted into a corner and had to hire.

[1256] And also the other thing that's amazing, once you've half -like child, you're kind of painted into a corner is also an amazing thing because you're like, you're like, I'm also clearly making fun of you for asking this question, which is the thing that doesn't come off.

[1257] Totally.

[1258] You're like, I'm mocking you for even bringing this.

[1259] I'm not a big enough dick to say to you, that's a stupid question.

[1260] and we shouldn't have to say that.

[1261] They can just be in a fucking relationship without doing an episode.

[1262] Yeah, of course.

[1263] But I'm not going to say that.

[1264] So yes, I'm trying to do it by a joke.

[1265] Yeah, and then it's like, I've had that happen a bunch of times and also my desire to make everybody feel comfortable.

[1266] Like, that's a big thing I had to face this year when I was thinking about all these issues of like sexual harassment in Hollywood is that sometimes men would do things that cross my boundaries that I was uncomfortable with.

[1267] And I'd be so uncomfortable that I would like rise to meet them where they were.

[1268] So it's like if someone made like a sex joke to me, I would almost be so scared that they were going to be embarrassed and like I would project into their embarrassment that like I'd be like making a sexual joke back to someone who just made my skin crawl and made me want to quit my job.

[1269] And so then suddenly you're like, I'm playing along with this thing that I don't want to be playing along with.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] And by the way, this is why the whole issue is about a trillion times more complicated than we're giving it credit for because there's something like that, right?

[1272] Like so I could make a pervy joke.

[1273] I can make a lot of pervy jokes.

[1274] I like to think I know when people are up for that or not.

[1275] The other thing that's nice though is I've been noticing actually on this podcast is that your pervy jokes are usually directed at yourself and their self -effacing.

[1276] Like you're not here to make anybody else feel and I've noticed this when I've listened.

[1277] You're not here to like project onto anybody else's sexuality or make them feel like you're making assumptions about who they are sexually or emotionally.

[1278] I try not to but I certainly fuck up by the way.

[1279] I'm not, you know, I'm not badding a thousand percent.

[1280] But this is why I think it's so much more complicated than we recognize is we were watching.

[1281] I want to say it was 60 minutes and they were talking about the sexual harassment that's been happening with chefs around and they detailed a few different examples.

[1282] But one of them was, I believe it was someone that either managed or worked at Spotted Pig, which is one of my favorite restaurants.

[1283] Yep.

[1284] And this manager or owner.

[1285] The owner of Spotted Pig got in a lot of trouble.

[1286] And one of the examples was he leaned over in a car and kissed this employee.

[1287] of his and she didn't say anything to him.

[1288] So let me just, I want to be very delicate about how I explained this.

[1289] I was watching it.

[1290] And what happened was he, he went in and he kissed her and then maybe he grabbed her boo.

[1291] I'm not even sure what all happened.

[1292] But when she was talking about the experience, she was paralyzed.

[1293] She was absolutely paralyzed when it started happening.

[1294] And what has never occurred to me as a guy and what should occur to me, because I read a great book called on killing.

[1295] It talks about that we think that humans have two mechanisms, fight or flight.

[1296] In reality, 90 % of the way animals deal with things is posture and submit.

[1297] We have way more hardwiring for a guy to go, fuck you, you fucking pussy.

[1298] And then the guy just goes kind of blank.

[1299] Like, all right, I'm not going to do anything.

[1300] I'm not going to say, sorry, no, I'm going to submit.

[1301] I'm going to submit.

[1302] And that's why guys didn't fire back when soldiers were storming them, shooting at them.

[1303] Your brain registered, that's a posture.

[1304] I'm going to submit and do nothing.

[1305] I'm not going to fire back or do anything.

[1306] I'm just going to go paralyzed.

[1307] So what's weird is for me as a guy trapped in my own view and worldview, if a guy leaned over and tried to kiss me, I would go, oh, I don't want to do that.

[1308] And so I stupidly assume anyone that doesn't want to kiss me if I lean over will tell me, oh, I don't want to kiss you.

[1309] I'm never thinking that the person might actually feel paralyzed by my approach.

[1310] and give me no signals and that that could be happening that's where it's like And then there's like inborn power structures where like everybody has to kind of go okay this person is not going to tell me no so I'm going to understand that I'm not supposed to lean over and try to kiss anyone who I have basic power over like if I'm your boss even little things like if I'm a lot more wealthy than you and you don't have a job and you think I might help it's like if you're the service provider and I'm the customer like there's just all kinds of dynamics in which it's even harder to assert yourself.

[1311] So what you're saying is like any woman being kissed by any man might freeze up, but especially a woman who's being kissed by, say, the owner of the restaurant that she works at is then going to have all these thoughts to go through your head where she's like, this person gives me my income.

[1312] This person could tell other people in the business that I did something.

[1313] This person could hurt my career.

[1314] Because I still have a thing like I can make a lot of choices about my own career.

[1315] I have as much power as I personally need.

[1316] Yeah.

[1317] And if I think I've offended or pissed off or something.

[1318] stepped on the toes as someone who seemingly has more power or more money or more prestige than me, my first thought is like, they're going to take everything from me. Yeah.

[1319] Because that's always my thought about everything, is that everything is that everything is going to get taken from me. Yeah.

[1320] And I weirdly think that the way out of all of this or through all of this is going to be like, we are going to have to amp up our communication by about a bazillion percent.

[1321] Because again, what that guy did was wrong.

[1322] There's no question.

[1323] but also that story needs to be shared so that us as guys who only know how we would deal with that and we're never even comprehending that someone might not say anything we need to know that that's a thing and we probably need to ask like I would like to kiss you or whatever there's just we're going to have to amp up everything quite up our communication and that's how I feel about like I want to amp up my communication with everybody and unless somebody directly says to me like I don't want to talk about this I'm going to keep trying to talk about it.

[1324] But what's interesting is, and again, you have to, Lena Dunham has a huge mallet that you probably don't even know you have on a second by second basis, which is you have a ton of power.

[1325] But I can't imagine you walk around feeling like you have a ton of power, right?

[1326] I feel so powerless.

[1327] And I think some of that is just, I think that there's a sense of powerlessness that comes with being a woman, especially a woman at this time.

[1328] I mean, a woman at every time in history, but right now it's like we've had this like regression into like power that we thought we had is gone.

[1329] But also I think like all of our trauma gives us a sense of powerlessness.

[1330] Like so many of us walk around feeling like the person that we were in some way on our internally feeling like the person we were in some way on our worst today, even on our best day.

[1331] And then it's weird because I always feel like if I do realize I have power, I like flex it at the wrong moment or in the wrong way.

[1332] Like it's like I say yes and I say yes and I say yes.

[1333] And, like, I had an experience this week.

[1334] I was working on this movie, this Quentin Tarantino movie, I'm honored to be on it.

[1335] It's an amazing experience.

[1336] It's a dream.

[1337] But, like, because of my autoimmune stuff, it's hard for me to be exposed in the sun for a really long time.

[1338] It, like, gets my shit going.

[1339] And I know that I'm going to feel sick later.

[1340] Yeah.

[1341] And so there was a shot that, like, where I was probably in the deep background and we were out in the sun for a long time.

[1342] And, you know, they were being nice and everyone was being nice.

[1343] And we had got sunscreen.

[1344] We got umbrellas.

[1345] But suddenly, like, my brain starts to go after a full, you know, two months of thinking, I'm garbage, I'm garbage, I'm garbage, my brain's like, I'm a very busy woman.

[1346] I have 17 jobs.

[1347] What am I doing?

[1348] The sun like this in the deep background, excuse me. Like, suddenly it's like, it never comes out at the moment that it would be useful to me. Of course.

[1349] And it always comes out at the moment where it's like garbage braddiness and to do anything with it would be offensive.

[1350] Like, you're not, what am I going to do, storm out of the shop that I'm already in?

[1351] that you're already established in.

[1352] Literally.

[1353] Like I had this moment where I like texted my agent and I was like listen if they're gonna have me in the deep background of the scene we should get a double we should get a double and then I'm like oh I'm older than these other girls I should advocate for them and I'm like and they should get doubles for the other girls but then that just entails putting more girls out in the sun so it's like we're not getting around and then it's like we're all getting paid and we have like umbrellas and sunscreen like why am I being this way and everything is ultimately just me plotting to get back to bed right my whole life is a slow crawl back to bed and you always got to force yourself to remembering when you first saw pulp fiction the first time what limb you would have cut off to have been a part of that literally and that's how i every single day like i would then like i would like aunt myself up i'd be like girl you're in a quentin tarentino you're in a quentin tarentino movie right now tarantino movie just added the word motherfucker to your line and he is like the most fascinating person to watch work.

[1354] So when I got to be close to that, but when he was like way up at, you know, he doesn't have video village, which is so cool.

[1355] But when he was way up at the like, you know, top of a hill and I was at the bottom of a hill and the deep background of a shot, you can better believe.

[1356] And also my friend Margaret, who was in the scene with me, she was doing an impression of me because like, I'd be like, hey, is this the last shot?

[1357] And the, like, and the second AD would be like, no, we've got three more over here.

[1358] And I'd go like, great, great, great, great, great.

[1359] Great, great.

[1360] Great, yeah, great.

[1361] And she was like, the way you're saying great is the meanest thing I've ever heard this is such a blessing I looked at my like life the other day I was telling my gent who runs my company I was like I just took a look at sort of my ledger my as my grandma would call it my income ledger and not one thing that is like supporting my life or the lives of people that I love or my employees or the charities I care about comes from me having to be anywhere on anyone else's time and that to me is the greatest blessing in the world.

[1362] And that is actually something that's come to me in the last six months.

[1363] Like I was like, okay, it's going to take a little while for the gifts of like getting off of medication and being in my life and like the joys of it all to appear.

[1364] And actually there's been like an incredibly like there's been like an incredible as I've like figured out what my next phase looks like it's been I've been able to make some extremely authentic choices.

[1365] Well, and I just want to clarify because I think it could be seen as either arrogant or ungrateful.

[1366] But I would argue that it's incredibly healthy because I now look at situations where I'll hear what this shooting of the Leonardo movie, The Revenant, was like.

[1367] I had crew members from my movie had been on that movie.

[1368] And I hear about that experience.

[1369] And I now am of the opinion, no, I would not be willing to suffer for six months and be miserable.

[1370] So that the thing I was in would be heralded is great.

[1371] And I think it's healthy because I now.

[1372] recognize like, well, that's my ego.

[1373] My ego wants to be in something that everyone looked up to.

[1374] And then I've made my life miserable just to validate my ego.

[1375] So it's not healthy for me. No, and I think that's one of the reasons that like, people are like, why are actors so bummed out all the time?

[1376] Because they have this amazing job and it's their dream and they're finally achieving their dream.

[1377] But I think there's this thing that happens where it's like you're a performer in high school and you love being in plays and it's super fun and you put on plays with your friends and you rehearse after school and you found a place.

[1378] that's you.

[1379] Then you get into the movie industry and you're literally like your body's a prop.

[1380] The studio tells you to lose weight.

[1381] They add hair to your hair.

[1382] You're like kind of like, you know, ruffled over.

[1383] You kind of feel like a little bit over -touched and degraded and made into something out.

[1384] And so obviously there's much harder jobs and more frustrating things.

[1385] But it's like it's not the thing that gave you all this joy.

[1386] And like I always try to have a lot of empathy like if an actor's a real bitch on set And I'm not saying bitch about a woman.

[1387] Like, I mean like a guy, a girl, whoever.

[1388] Sure.

[1389] An asshole.

[1390] An asshole.

[1391] Someone's a fucking asshole about their scene and they're trying to change their lines and they're asking you why they're doing something.

[1392] That is in many ways on this particular project, their only source of power.

[1393] And we all want to feel powerful in our lives.

[1394] Sure.

[1395] I think a lot of it's just fear of getting started.

[1396] 100%.

[1397] And if you just start quite often, it's not nearly as bad as you thought it was going to be.

[1398] And being a person is tiring and it's scary and it's scary no matter where you are.

[1399] And there's very few people in the world that I can't muster something resembling empathy for, although there's certainly a couple.

[1400] Sure.

[1401] But I've also had to realize we come into our careers thinking that, as you said, like, I had a lot of thoughts.

[1402] I was like, if I could only, you know, host SNL one time and go to, you know, one party where my dress has a train.

[1403] Yeah.

[1404] I'm never going to feel this way again.

[1405] The Metball, host SNL.

[1406] And then.

[1407] And I'll be, I'll prove I am valuable.

[1408] Yeah, but my thought was always, and then I can get in bed forever.

[1409] Oh, right, right, right.

[1410] The ultimate fantasy was just too.

[1411] Yeah, to just be done.

[1412] Yeah, I relate to that.

[1413] And I have got to really police myself on that because when you do that or when I do that, what I realize is I'm forgetting that the process is so fun.

[1414] And I'm looking only at the results and then I want to do nothing, but that's a bizarre fantasy to have.

[1415] Yeah.

[1416] Like being productive in itself is of value and gives you self -esteem.

[1417] The thing that I learned.

[1418] And the most joyful I ever remember is when I'm making something and I don't know if people are going to like it or if they're not going to like it or if they're going to connect to it.

[1419] If they're not going to connect to it, like, what a pleasure.

[1420] The thing, though, that I think is helpful in this writer Don Roos, I don't know if you know who he is, but he's a wonderful man. I look up to him so much.

[1421] But he one time told me, he's like, you know, when you say my career, that's your ego.

[1422] When you say my work, that's healthy.

[1423] So, like, stop thinking about like this project.

[1424] is blank for my career.

[1425] That's a story.

[1426] That's like something you think's going to be evaluated.

[1427] But my job is to sit down and write on a computer.

[1428] It's not my career.

[1429] It's just my activity I do.

[1430] It used to drive me crazy because I would say to my dad, like, I'm so sick.

[1431] But I have to go do this press thing.

[1432] And he's like, what does half do you mean?

[1433] And I'm like, I'm going to be in a ton of trouble if I don't.

[1434] And he'd be like, what does trouble mean?

[1435] And I'd be like, it's going to be terrible.

[1436] Like, I'm not going to be able to do the things I want to in the future.

[1437] And he'd be like, is that true?

[1438] And he would just be asking the question.

[1439] And I'd be like, you don't get it.

[1440] You don't get anything.

[1441] But it's like he was actually saying like there's almost nothing.

[1442] And I've learned that actually one of the great gifts of being sick has been sometimes I just have to stop and listen to my body.

[1443] And there's truly almost nothing.

[1444] Like do I regret being sick and missing one bar mitzvah?

[1445] Like Jenny Hunter's daughter's pot mitzvah if I would have done anything to be there.

[1446] Right.

[1447] The rest of it like is fine.

[1448] Now, with all that said, the remaining thing that could get me very horny would be to be in a Tarantino movie.

[1449] That, to me, is like, I have zero aspirations left, but fucking A, if I could be in one of those 10 movies he's going to make, I would love to watch him work.

[1450] I would just, yeah, so you get a call or did you audition?

[1451] You got a call, right?

[1452] I had a meeting with him, and we talked, and I've been, I love the female characters that he writes.

[1453] I care a lot about his work.

[1454] It's been very formative for me. I expressed that.

[1455] And then I got to go to the set.

[1456] And the first day, I called up my friend Mary on the way home from set.

[1457] And I was squealing like a kid who went to Disney World.

[1458] Like, I just couldn't believe, you know, he doesn't have cell phones on his set.

[1459] Oh, really?

[1460] Is everybody leave their cell phone?

[1461] And it's not some crazy, like, I'm afraid you're going to leak my thing.

[1462] It's like, he's just like, be present.

[1463] He's just like be here.

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] So everyone's doing their job.

[1466] No one's, like, checking their fantasy football.

[1467] no one's reading an e -book it's like so cool you're time traveling back to like 98 I couldn't believe it and I was like everyone is so focused I made friends I was excited Has anyone been busted for having a cell phone?

[1468] Did you witness that?

[1469] I haven't seen it although I did at one point ask a Pia I was like do you take Brad Pitt's off the way?

[1470] Yeah I was just gonna say yeah but I never saw him pull it out Ah well you're smart enough not to pull it out he's so what a fucking babe Jesus Christ I died I mean he's everything that that you would hope that he would be.

[1471] I saw him once in his, this morning, actually, I don't want to brag.

[1472] I saw him in, I only saw him in costume.

[1473] Then today he wasn't in his costume.

[1474] And I was like, where do you even get a white t -shirt that looks like you?

[1475] Oh, my God.

[1476] Thank you.

[1477] Maybe he just wears everything that well.

[1478] His whole look is just so cool.

[1479] And he's so nice and he's nice to everyone and he remembers everybody's name.

[1480] Like, you're like, oh, there's a reason you get to be a movie star.

[1481] Yeah.

[1482] Just like you're better at things than the average person.

[1483] Absolutely.

[1484] I've learned a really cool trick from a camera operator, a Scipio Africano.

[1485] He taught me this really cool trick, which is he had read that you learn people's names better when you need something from them.

[1486] If you need something from a person, you'll remember their name.

[1487] So what he does, because the camera operator is more than anyone, they got to remember like the stand -in's name, the person who's just guest starring that day because he's going to have to say, Michael, will you step here or step there?

[1488] So what he does is he hangs out at Crafty in the morning.

[1489] And he's just kind of sitting there with his coffee.

[1490] And when that person comes up, he introduced himself.

[1491] And then he says, oh, Michael, will you hand me a sugar?

[1492] He creates a task and a need so that he needs something from them for one moment.

[1493] And that's how he does it.

[1494] And I was like, that's brilliant.

[1495] I'm so bad at it.

[1496] And I had to have, I had the worst realization ever.

[1497] So I was like, oh, I'm so bad at names.

[1498] I don't remember everyone's name.

[1499] Then I had to admit to myself, oh, I know the producer's name.

[1500] I know the director's name.

[1501] I know everyone above me's name.

[1502] That's really good.

[1503] You grappled with it and got it.

[1504] And I'm like, oh, that's disgusting.

[1505] I know everyone that's above me's name.

[1506] But it kind of answered, he later answered that question.

[1507] It's like, I need something from those people or I want something from those people.

[1508] So then I've learned their name.

[1509] But what I found is when I direct, I know everyone's name.

[1510] Every person on the crew's name.

[1511] Because, again, I need stuff from them.

[1512] I need, you know, the prop master to get this thing, Jeffrey Johnson.

[1513] A hundred percent.

[1514] I had an antagonistic relationship with a prop master one season.

[1515] As an actress or a showrunner.

[1516] An actress and a showrunner.

[1517] But, like, you know when you kind of make somebody, I don't know if you ever do this, like the joking, but of your constant rage.

[1518] Uh -huh.

[1519] And I, and I direct, I felt comfortable directing it all at this white man whose name is Glenn.

[1520] And I'd like to hear apologize to Glenn, who didn't deserve.

[1521] I wasn't like a mean to him.

[1522] But any time there was a problem on set, I'd be like, eyes on Glenn.

[1523] Like, I just was like, sassy.

[1524] Uh -huh.

[1525] And you know what the root of it was?

[1526] One time I was supposed to be drinking coffee in a scene.

[1527] And Glenn did something really.

[1528] insane.

[1529] Unforgivable.

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] He poured Pepsi in a cup and then added milk.

[1532] What?

[1533] Because I guess he like didn't have coffee at that minute.

[1534] Sure, it happens.

[1535] Which I get.

[1536] But like, I was like, are you really trying to get me to take a sip of Pepsi and milk in this scene, Glenn?

[1537] Like, what do you think's going to happen?

[1538] I'm not this good an actor.

[1539] Brad Pitt could do it.

[1540] I can't do it.

[1541] It would derail you.

[1542] You didn't finish Tarantino.

[1543] So you had a meeting with him.

[1544] Are you allowed to even, you're probably not allowed to say anything.

[1545] Is the genre known?

[1546] Yeah, the genre's known.

[1547] The movie is about Hollywood in the late 60s.

[1548] Awesome.

[1549] It's amazing.

[1550] Is it the title known?

[1551] It's called Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

[1552] Okay, great.

[1553] And so you have a great meeting with him.

[1554] And it's known that I play a Manson girl, Manson, Holland.

[1555] Oh.

[1556] Oh, that is public knowledge.

[1557] And there has been a photo of me in my costume leaked.

[1558] And showing your underwear to Brad Pitt.

[1559] And showing my underwear to Brad Pitt.

[1560] And so I wear kind of like fun lineny slash.

[1561] crocheted kind of moo -moot dress and kind of an kind of ambiguously ethnic earring ring situation and some hair extantions the manse and stuff is so much more interesting than I had originally known the guy wrote a really detailed book and he was on NPR or something I heard like the fact that he like he was preparing for a race war he was trying to instigate a race war he was trying to instigate a race war because what he thought was going to happen was that his people were going to find a city under the desert go into it There was going to be a race war.

[1562] Instigated by them.

[1563] Instigated by them.

[1564] Black people were going to win, but then black people wouldn't be used to running the country.

[1565] So in whatever number of years, it would be in shambles.

[1566] And then they'd crawl out from under the desert.

[1567] They'd play the waiting game there for a minute.

[1568] But they were in Death Valley.

[1569] Like we think of them, I think they were into Pangos where they were generally hanging out.

[1570] They were generally hanging out in Chatsworth.

[1571] Oh, in Chatsworth.

[1572] Great.

[1573] Yeah, which is where we've been filming.

[1574] Okay.

[1575] And he also, unbeknownst to me, is he was an aspiring museum.

[1576] Right?

[1577] His tracks are available on the internet.

[1578] And they're terrible.

[1579] They're not great.

[1580] Yeah, he's not a good singer.

[1581] He's not like a hot talent that everyone's looking to sign.

[1582] And what is?

[1583] And he was using those gals originally to sleep with record executives and stuff so that he would get his foot in the door.

[1584] It's so weird because he had two very different messages.

[1585] One was like it was going to be apocalypse and race war.

[1586] And then side project, I need to become a popular musician.

[1587] Successful folk singer.

[1588] I know it was.

[1589] The other thing that's interesting about the Manson story to me is like I feel like we have such a cultural obsession with it, with him and with the girls and with what was that dynamic.

[1590] But the thing I feel like we don't say and what was interesting to me in playing this and in researching the, it's only part I've ever like researched for.

[1591] Right.

[1592] It's like, what it really is is a story about sexual abuse.

[1593] The way, how did he, people are like, how did he get all those women?

[1594] Was he so charismatic?

[1595] No, what he did was the same thing.

[1596] that pimps do which is who are which is zero in on women who already had an enormous amount of trauma yeah figure out how to make them feel temporarily special then dominate them in exactly the way that they were used to being dominated so it was like a re -traumatization and perpetuation of their sexual shame and fear and humiliation and mixed with probably Stockholm syndrome that's part of it too right I'm 100 % sure and now there's like women who have spoken about it since and what the experience was like but like You know, I think we all like to think, like, oh, my God, these people are crazy.

[1597] But what we don't like to think is, like, a lot of us.

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] Because of our different shit, we, I mean, I've had a few kind of, like, experiences where I've, like, gotten a little too into, like, you know, an L .A. health guru or whatever.

[1600] And then suddenly gone, like, oh, no. Like, it's just.

[1601] Oh, my God.

[1602] My friend Russell took a picture of me the other day wearing multiple layers of rust colored clothing than did a who wore it better between Sheila and.

[1603] I felt really cool.

[1604] I'm obsessed and so in love with Ma 'an, Sheila.

[1605] She's my number one.

[1606] She's your hall pass.

[1607] Fucking A. I told Monica, I get a time machine.

[1608] I'm making two stops.

[1609] Her grandma, when she was 18, the sexiest woman I've ever seen in my life.

[1610] You mean, oh, Monica's grandma?

[1611] My grandma is the hottest woman that's ever walked planet Earth.

[1612] Oh, my God.

[1613] She is a smoke show.

[1614] Holy shit.

[1615] Yep.

[1616] So you're going to go stop at Monica's grandma.

[1617] And then straight to Ma 'an when she's building that city.

[1618] What a powerful lady.

[1619] I mean.

[1620] I know.

[1621] Well, she would take you in.

[1622] She'd fuck you up in the shack and then she'd spit you out.

[1623] And the whole ride, I'd be love it.

[1624] It'd be so exhilarating.

[1625] You'd feel so.

[1626] And also because you're like a person with a lot of energy and intensity, like it'd be nice for you almost to just be shut down by shield.

[1627] Oh, I would love it.

[1628] It's like those, like those powerful businessmen who are like submissives and they go get their asses whipped.

[1629] Fucking heaven.

[1630] Heaven.

[1631] Heaven.

[1632] Heaven.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] Like just check all my alpha bullshit at the door and let her march me around.

[1635] Die for it.

[1636] me up and down the flagpole.

[1637] Dive for it.

[1638] So when you actually, you got a call and said, you're in this movie.

[1639] When I found out, I was really, really, really excited.

[1640] And then, you know, I went for a costume fitting.

[1641] I went for another costume fitting.

[1642] I kept thinking like something was going to happen at every phase.

[1643] Right.

[1644] The shoe were going to change their mind.

[1645] The clerical mistake would be noticed.

[1646] 100%.

[1647] I was going to get fired after the first day.

[1648] After my first shot, I was like, that probably isn't what they wanted.

[1649] So today, this morning before I came here, when I wrapped and they said, that's a wrap on Lena Dunham like even though everyone was so nice there was a part of me that was like are they like okay now we have to figure out how to edit her how to cut her out here isn't it amazing you you still feel like you're going to get fired on the first day or cut like that never it never goes away never goes away no I still I promise you Brad Pitt's insecure in some of those scenes in his movie I promise I mean he doesn't act he's so good at acting cool yeah like Brad Pitt's so good at doing cool stuff did you see him with the shirt off at all.

[1650] Yeah, did you?

[1651] No, but I had this thing which is like sometimes when there's somebody who's very like traditionally attractive, technically attractive, although I think Brad has, Brad, I'll call him, has something more.

[1652] He transcends his...

[1653] He transcends his good looks and redefines them.

[1654] But it's almost like I have a more maternal feeling towards him.

[1655] Of course.

[1656] I'm wanting to care for him and wanting to put him back inside my womb.

[1657] But my sexual.

[1658] This is Monica's thing too.

[1659] And I have a theory on that.

[1660] sexuality proclivity fantasy so cool yeah and I think you know what I've diagnosed it in Monica as is is you've figured out a way to make yourself essential to the person oh yeah like everyone else is offering this but I've got this niche thing I can do that's going to make me special in their eyes and they're going to know that they can't get this with anybody else my thing is like I'll be his only date that can if his motorcycle breaks he can rise safely on the back of mine.

[1661] 100%.

[1662] There's very few people he could trust.

[1663] No, he wouldn't test anyone.

[1664] To be on the back of a motorcycle with.

[1665] He's got children.

[1666] He knows that.

[1667] Do you still ride your motorcycle a lot?

[1668] Yeah, yeah, nonstop.

[1669] So, but you'll ride it.

[1670] Like, it's your way of getting places.

[1671] I say it's my superpower.

[1672] A couple days ago, we were all on a plane together leaving Toronto.

[1673] We get off the plane.

[1674] He has his motorcycle.

[1675] And we're like, bye.

[1676] I step into the Uber line and I get a text from him home.

[1677] And I live in Los Feles from L .A. My Uber yet.

[1678] It's a superpower.

[1679] I feel like I teleport places because of the motorcycle.

[1680] Does Bell ever ride on the back?

[1681] She's not scared.

[1682] She is the weirdest thing.

[1683] She could give a shit.

[1684] I took her, there's this racetrack in Germany called the Nureberg Ring.

[1685] And it's the longest racetrack in the world.

[1686] It's a 17 mile lap.

[1687] I rent this Porsche from Avis rental car.

[1688] You're not supposed to take it on the track.

[1689] I do anyways.

[1690] The back stretch were going 195 miles an hour.

[1691] I look over at her.

[1692] She's like thumbing through a magazine.

[1693] She doesn't even look up to see that we're doing anything.

[1694] It's like, it's not like she's game.

[1695] She just doesn't care.

[1696] Oh, yeah.

[1697] So cool.

[1698] Yeah, she's a pretty gangster of her, right?

[1699] She's really gangst.

[1700] You guys have been together 11 years now?

[1701] Yeah.

[1702] So, impressive.

[1703] Yeah.

[1704] So you guys got together, you were like 32 or something?

[1705] Great, fast math.

[1706] My age, my age.

[1707] I was 32, she was 27.

[1708] And here's another question.

[1709] How old were you when you got sober?

[1710] 29.

[1711] 29.

[1712] So you had like a couple.

[1713] End of 29.

[1714] So you had like three years under your belt of good, solid work.

[1715] Yes.

[1716] And we're like - She met a much different version of me than other people had.

[1717] You were entering into the relationship from a thoughtful place.

[1718] Yes.

[1719] And not just the sobriety, but also recognizing my sex addiction and my love addiction and all these kind of things that are all external things to regulate my internal emotions.

[1720] 100%.

[1721] I love you.

[1722] I'm so flattered you came to see us.

[1723] I really am.

[1724] When I reached out to you, I was like, I can't believe she's saying yes.

[1725] I love you and I also shared a lot in this situation that I haven't shared in other places and it felt really sometimes you got to go with your gut and it felt really right.

[1726] You're a safe, thoughtful, understanding, yet you urge people to be better.

[1727] Oh, well, thank you.

[1728] So I wish everyone could see his overalls.

[1729] He is Kayut.

[1730] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1731] She was blinded by the facts Wrapped up like a deuce And do the runner in the night Blinded by the facts She on down She's gonna find the truth She's gonna make it Through the night Again the end is not there The beginning is there The beginning is definitely there It's arrived And sometimes You're gonna have to settle for beginning.

[1732] That's the theme.

[1733] That seems to be the theme of the last 15 minutes.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] I'm sorry.

[1736] You know.

[1737] I'm kidding.

[1738] It's fine.

[1739] You knew this day was coming, right?

[1740] What?

[1741] We lost our jobs?

[1742] Yes.

[1743] I'm pretty dependable.

[1744] Don't you think I'm pretty dependable?

[1745] 55 episodes in or whatever?

[1746] You're in life or on this?

[1747] No, on this show.

[1748] Oh, sure.

[1749] Yeah, on this show, I'm pretty dependable.

[1750] Not today.

[1751] You know, we were wondering when I'd have one of those days where I could just barely do this.

[1752] Yeah.

[1753] On the day that we need to.

[1754] to really barrel through.

[1755] Because to give you a little peek behind the curtain, we're leaving crack ass in the morning to go to the sand dunes.

[1756] Your favorite place.

[1757] Favorite place on planet Earth.

[1758] And there's so much to do.

[1759] And I was out of town yesterday and this morning.

[1760] And now there's three vehicles that need fuel.

[1761] There's a lot of stuff.

[1762] I got to make a lot of spaghetti.

[1763] Yeah.

[1764] What do you got to do?

[1765] And I got to pack, but I don't have much to pack.

[1766] What should I pack?

[1767] I'm packing.

[1768] Bikini?

[1769] No. Okay pasties, no Negliget?

[1770] A nighty?

[1771] No?

[1772] Is it going to be cold there?

[1773] No, it's going to be very warm.

[1774] It is?

[1775] Yeah, it's going to be about 90 in the daytime, 67 at night.

[1776] Mm -hmm.

[1777] It's going to be hot as shit.

[1778] So don't bring snow suit, moon boots.

[1779] Dang it.

[1780] Well, they'll bring moon boots.

[1781] That's virtually what clugs are.

[1782] Glugs?

[1783] Ugs.

[1784] Ugs.

[1785] We wear Ugs out there in the Dune.

[1786] There's a nice wide footprint and it helps keep you on top of the sand.

[1787] I don't wear Uggs, unfortunately.

[1788] Why not?

[1789] I wear so embarrassing.

[1790] I can't even talk about it.

[1791] Your sunglasses at night?

[1792] No. What?

[1793] I heard that song the other day.

[1794] You did?

[1795] Did you get so excited?

[1796] Mm -hmm.

[1797] Oh, wonderful.

[1798] I don't have Ugs.

[1799] I have a generic version.

[1800] That's so unlike you.

[1801] What?

[1802] It's a trusted brand.

[1803] They're from high school.

[1804] Oh, my goodness.

[1805] They're very old.

[1806] Yeah, because I don't wear ugs in life.

[1807] Testament to what a high quality product it is that the rubber hasn't disintegrated.

[1808] You're right.

[1809] That's the best way to look at us.

[1810] But I don't wear them.

[1811] I only wore them last year to the sandies.

[1812] I mean, wore them in high school, sure.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] Even then it was sad.

[1815] It's sad.

[1816] It was a rip -off of the thing.

[1817] So that was my whole life.

[1818] I hear you.

[1819] That's why I have things that are not rip -off versions now.

[1820] That's right.

[1821] You really wanted them as a kid and you didn't get them.

[1822] Yeah.

[1823] She goes back.

[1824] Fact check it again.

[1825] She's running round and round.

[1826] You go fact check and do it again.

[1827] That's Steely Dan.

[1828] You know, I love Steely Dan.

[1829] That's really nice.

[1830] Okay.

[1831] So you talk about Rusty's speech.

[1832] That's Paul Rust.

[1833] That's right.

[1834] Paul Rust star of love.

[1835] Star of Love.

[1836] That's which we loved.

[1837] Yeah, we watched the first season.

[1838] And Paul Ross is so cute.

[1839] Oh, he's so cute.

[1840] We like him so much.

[1841] So unique.

[1842] He is.

[1843] And he comes from the UCB.

[1844] And he wrote a very nice speech that made you feel all teary.

[1845] I really did, man. He was talking about how Leslie made him feel cool.

[1846] Yeah, that's nice.

[1847] So sweet.

[1848] Oh, it's really nice.

[1849] Is that amoral to say part of their speech publicly?

[1850] Hmm.

[1851] I don't think so.

[1852] Even if I'm being super compliment.

[1853] No, because you're also not.

[1854] like verbatim you're just saying well actually the full speech went you made me feel so cool because normally I don't feel cool because I don't have any testicles oh and I have a tail do you think I'm saying anything he would object to no no he doesn't care people know he has a tail no right people pretty much already know that about him oh okay good okay another person that we don't give a last we don't give full name Jemima Jemima Kirk Great.

[1855] From girls.

[1856] That's right.

[1857] She's from girls.

[1858] She's from tiny furniture.

[1859] Uh -huh.

[1860] She's from an artistic family.

[1861] Sure.

[1862] I mean, if you want to get down to the beginning of it all.

[1863] I think people probably knew it was Jemima Kirk, but just in case.

[1864] Yeah, if you want to look her up.

[1865] She's so pretty.

[1866] Yeah.

[1867] I think she's those big round eyes I generally like.

[1868] Mm -hmm.

[1869] Oh, there was a conversation about how to love somebody, like.

[1870] giving them what they need versus what you are expecting, you know, out of love or what you need out of love might not coincide with what they need.

[1871] Uh -huh.

[1872] We talked about that.

[1873] And then that made me think of the love languages.

[1874] And then I wonder, did we already talk about love languages before?

[1875] It doesn't matter.

[1876] I know.

[1877] We can recycle here.

[1878] We can.

[1879] I've needed to hear many concepts multiple times before I got them.

[1880] Not that this is one that's so abstract that requires repeating, but we can't had an expectation for ourselves that we're never going to, everything we say is going to be new on here.

[1881] We'll die.

[1882] We'll die.

[1883] Then I'll die ourselves.

[1884] No, don't die.

[1885] I might.

[1886] Love languages.

[1887] Five of them.

[1888] Do you know what they are?

[1889] Gift giving.

[1890] Saying I love you.

[1891] Words of affirmation.

[1892] Words of affirmation.

[1893] Waking people food.

[1894] Acts of service.

[1895] Acts of service.

[1896] You translated all of these into something else.

[1897] That's so funny.

[1898] Okay.

[1899] So I've done three of the five.

[1900] Yeah.

[1901] I don't I think I have the other two.

[1902] I don't even know that I had the first three.

[1903] Well, I think you kind of are one of the ones you haven't said.

[1904] One of, maybe.

[1905] Dynamite lover.

[1906] Physical touch Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1907] Is that is one and quality time is the fifth.

[1908] So what do you think you are?

[1909] And then what do you think you give?

[1910] Sometimes those aren't the same.

[1911] Well, I mean, again, I'm probably wrong.

[1912] I think physical touch and quality time are things that I, I value very highly and try to, you know, I think you'll agree.

[1913] When you come into the house, I don't just go like high and I'm walk past you.

[1914] I stop what I'm doing and look at you and I say, how are you doing?

[1915] Yep.

[1916] What's going on?

[1917] Yeah.

[1918] If we're going to interact, I want it to be present and quality.

[1919] Yeah.

[1920] So I think that's one.

[1921] And then I'm always groping you too, right?

[1922] As you would attest you.

[1923] It's all at the same time.

[1924] It's like, how are you?

[1925] And then also your.

[1926] Tune in Tokyo, tune in Tokyo.

[1927] I don't even know.

[1928] I don't know what any of these are.

[1929] Oh, you don't know what tune in Tokyo.

[1930] Well, I know because you just did a hand gesture, but I've never heard that.

[1931] The John Hughes movie, 16 Candles.

[1932] I think there's something about they want to play tune in Tokyo.

[1933] It's like high school or kids and they want to like feel boobs.

[1934] And if people don't know, yeah, people don't know.

[1935] I'm putting both hands in front of me with my fingers splayed.

[1936] And I'm twisting my hands like I'm twisting knobs on a radio.

[1937] Tune in Tokyo.

[1938] It's like operating a ham radio.

[1939] Yep.

[1940] And that's what the young boys wanted to do to a set at breasts.

[1941] They wanted to tune in Tokyo.

[1942] Oh, wow.

[1943] Yeah.

[1944] Wow.

[1945] For the record, I've never tuned in her Tokyo.

[1946] No, no, no, no. We'll be clear.

[1947] Still haven't reached Tokyo yet.

[1948] Oh, I wasn't finished talking about that.

[1949] Love languages.

[1950] Love languages.

[1951] We got really distracted by physical touch.

[1952] One of yours is gift giving.

[1953] For giving, though, not really receiving.

[1954] I don't like.

[1955] Important for you to feel, in order to feel loved, you don't need to be receiving thoughtful gifts.

[1956] No. But mom gives you thoughtful gifts all the time.

[1957] And when she does, how does that feel?

[1958] No, she doesn't.

[1959] Kristen?

[1960] Oh, I thought you meant my mom.

[1961] No, your mom.

[1962] Not your mom, your mom.

[1963] Jesus.

[1964] I'm talking about your mom, not your mom.

[1965] When my mom gives me. They're generally crazy thoughtful.

[1966] Stopped gifts.

[1967] I love it.

[1968] Yeah, do you feel super loved?

[1969] I do.

[1970] I do feel like someone's hearing me. Okay.

[1971] Paying attention.

[1972] Yeah.

[1973] You know, it's weird.

[1974] Like, I think maybe it's because.

[1975] because I'm good at that, that when somebody else is good at it too, you see through it?

[1976] No, there's nothing to see through.

[1977] It's all wonderful.

[1978] And it is so thoughtful and nice.

[1979] But I'm not like, I don't think I feel it in the same way.

[1980] Well, so I agree with you in that I'm not a crazy thoughtful gift giver.

[1981] So then when I receive a gift that was crazy thoughtful, you've given me some.

[1982] Kristen's given me some.

[1983] It's extra powerful because it's out of my skill set.

[1984] I'm like, oh, this person really did something.

[1985] something I can't even do for me. I also.

[1986] Not unlike when I tune in your Tokyo.

[1987] You're like, I can't tune in Tokyo.

[1988] Stop talking about my Tokyo's on here.

[1989] Yeah, I give gifts for sure.

[1990] And I think I need all of them.

[1991] All of them.

[1992] Okay.

[1993] But no, I think I need really hard.

[1994] I really do kind of feel like I like all, I need all of them.

[1995] I mean, everyone needs all of them.

[1996] That's why they're there.

[1997] But it's like, what do you respond to the most?

[1998] You know what?

[1999] I don't really need acts of service.

[2000] Well, that's a bummer because that's primarily how I'm showing you that I love you as I'm like.

[2001] That's not true.

[2002] Well, no, yes.

[2003] Well, it's one of.

[2004] Going with the truck to pick out a bed.

[2005] I know.

[2006] I love that.

[2007] And then I go to the Best Buy and pick out a TV.

[2008] Well, it was actually Costco.

[2009] Go to Costco, pick out some TVs with you, put them up in your house.

[2010] Actually, I'm wrong.

[2011] I do love that.

[2012] Okay.

[2013] I do need it.

[2014] I do.

[2015] You love all the loves.

[2016] Yeah.

[2017] Anyway, I just think, I think it's interesting because I think other people are better at diagnosing, sometimes better at diagnosing your stuff than you.

[2018] Oh, I think most the time they are.

[2019] But also, I think the most important thing about the love language thought process isn't to say like what you do or don't love or whatever.

[2020] But it's more importantly to go like, oh.

[2021] Oh, this is something I value a ton.

[2022] So then when the person doesn't do it back to me, I'm assuming they have the same love language.

[2023] So I'm assuming they don't love me. And you're probably missing some other way they're demonstrating their love for you.

[2024] But it's not the one that you give.

[2025] So you kind of miss it.

[2026] Yeah.

[2027] I mean, that's like half, right?

[2028] And then the other half is, so what is the thing that they respond to?

[2029] And I can try to be better about giving that.

[2030] Yep.

[2031] You know?

[2032] Yep, absolutely.

[2033] Okay.

[2034] I don't want Kristen to stop giving me gifts, okay?

[2035] Because I really like those.

[2036] She won't, yeah.

[2037] I like that.

[2038] We talk a lot about mental health on this episode.

[2039] A lotty lot.

[2040] Too much?

[2041] No. Okay.

[2042] A good amount.

[2043] It was two a lot.

[2044] It was.

[2045] It was a lot.

[2046] It was.

[2047] But in a great, it was great.

[2048] It's good to talk about it.

[2049] And that's really what we talk about always.

[2050] Yeah.

[2051] But I remembered when I was listening back, I remembered one time I was listening to this panel of the Mad Men cast.

[2052] One of the actors on there is French, I want to say.

[2053] He's European.

[2054] And he, I don't know how they got on this subject, but they started talking about happiness.

[2055] And he was like, Americans are so obsessed with happiness as a destination.

[2056] I'm paraphrasing, but happiness as a destination.

[2057] and the French, I think it was the French, don't see it like that.

[2058] They see happiness as like another emotion that's transient that you come in and out of.

[2059] And so there's a lot less depression because depression comes from not achieving this permanent level of happiness.

[2060] Unmet expectations.

[2061] But really, that's not, no one can do that.

[2062] It's not a permanent state.

[2063] It's a fleeting feeling.

[2064] Exactly.

[2065] You're right.

[2066] I find myself striving for all happiness.

[2067] The best you can strive for is contentness.

[2068] Yeah.

[2069] That's sustainable.

[2070] Then you know little peaks of happiness and little valleys of sadness.

[2071] Mount Fuji's over there in Tokyo and you'll tune in, see what they're saying.

[2072] And then, you know.

[2073] Yeah.

[2074] Yeah.

[2075] And it all informs the other.

[2076] Mm -hmm.

[2077] Sadness informs happiness.

[2078] Number one time I told you I'm not afraid to be sad.

[2079] Yeah.

[2080] I told you that one time.

[2081] I don't know if it's still true, but so she's in this new movie, Manson's so interesting.

[2082] Oh, the Quentin Tarantino film.

[2083] Yes.

[2084] Uh -huh.

[2085] Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

[2086] That's what it's called.

[2087] Yeah.

[2088] For now.

[2089] Who knows.

[2090] His tend to stick.

[2091] That's true.

[2092] He has good titles.

[2093] Yeah.

[2094] He's got literally the best titles of any writer ever.

[2095] He has good ones.

[2096] I want to see it.

[2097] I'm so obsessed with the Manson murders.

[2098] Really?

[2099] Yeah.

[2100] Yeah, which is kind of a cliche, like everyone's obsessed with them.

[2101] They're like the most.

[2102] You're like, I'm so into Disneyland.

[2103] I'm so into chocolate.

[2104] It's so strange.

[2105] It's so rare.

[2106] This is the weirdest thing about me. It's like, but when I get a huge paycheck, I'm like, I love it.

[2107] It feels good.

[2108] Yeah, like, I don't know why, but like, I love when I get a huge paycheck.

[2109] It's going to sound weird when I say this, but okay, yeah.

[2110] But anyway, so it's interesting to me. It's interesting to you?

[2111] the Mansons incredibly yeah yeah what fascinates me about it is the is the primate aspect like the power of the group the power of a leader the power of status the power of all these things that I kind of bring up often on here and pray see it at a zenith where it's like you actually convince people to go murder other people yeah because of your mindset point of view and the tools used to become that Yeah.

[2112] Cult of personality.

[2113] It's so interesting that we as an animal are susceptible to that.

[2114] And even people that would imagine they're not would probably be shocked, you know, like Stockholm syndrome.

[2115] That's fascinating to me that you start sympathizing with your captors and all these different things that are, I think are all weird, vestigial group animal behaviors.

[2116] Yeah.

[2117] I know I always, I'm always surprised when people are so indignant.

[2118] and judgmental about people who get like quote unquote sucked into these cults because I'm like I think everyone is capable of being sucked in.

[2119] Yeah.

[2120] I think I really am.

[2121] Well, again, you got to certainly there's probably a spectrum of how susceptible people are.

[2122] Yeah.

[2123] But but then you have to imagine circumstance.

[2124] So you have to go like, okay, now imagine me on my worst day feeling the worst about myself in the most directionless I've ever seen, then I meet one of the most charismatic people of all time happens to coincide with that moment.

[2125] And then the sky's the limit.

[2126] Well, I think it's just, it's whatever their, whatever vulnerability that particular cult is preying on, you know, you are more or less susceptible, but they happen all over the place.

[2127] Oh, absolutely.

[2128] They're in plain sight.

[2129] The Rajneeshis were on some level, very, I mean, they were.

[2130] in a cult.

[2131] I happen to think it's pretty cool cult, but regardless, it was a cult.

[2132] Yeah.

[2133] Yeah.

[2134] Do you think you've ever been under the power of somebody?

[2135] Yeah.

[2136] You do.

[2137] You.

[2138] Don't say that.

[2139] I hate when you don't say that.

[2140] I know you don't like when I say that.

[2141] I'm sorry.

[2142] You hate it.

[2143] I thought you didn't use that word.

[2144] Burn.

[2145] Yeah.

[2146] One time, Dak said I use the word hate all the time and I haven't said since which goes to show that I'm in your cult no I don't I don't like it how about that I don't like I know which is so funny that you get like really weirded out by that I do I do is it because we have this podcast and you get nervous that you really are doing that no it it would make your liking me disingenuous it would mean the thing that we share is mind control and cult of personality and not just like a genuine friendship.

[2147] I don't think that's true.

[2148] I don't think I'm in your cult.

[2149] Okay.

[2150] Thank you.

[2151] Some days I do.

[2152] Some days I don't.

[2153] I don't think I'm in your cult.

[2154] You disagree with the cult leader quite a bit for someone in a cult.

[2155] I'm very outspoken.

[2156] If you really measured like if there's an outsider or a computer program that was monitoring our conversations, the vast majority of them are disagreements.

[2157] I know, but I keep coming back.

[2158] Well, or I keep coming back.

[2159] Who's coming back?

[2160] That's true.

[2161] Okay.

[2162] So, Forbes says there's five tricks to being better at names, remembering names.

[2163] Forbes does that we said?

[2164] Yeah.

[2165] Okay, great.

[2166] I think this is our first Forbes citing.

[2167] I probably referenced it before.

[2168] Yeah.

[2169] Okay.

[2170] One, meet and repeat.

[2171] That's an obvious one.

[2172] Sure.

[2173] Meet and repeat.

[2174] Two, spell it out.

[2175] Oh.

[2176] M -O -N -O -C -O -A.

[2177] Good job.

[2178] Spell it out.

[2179] Three associate.

[2180] So Joan from Jersey.

[2181] Ooh.

[2182] Little alliteration.

[2183] I think Anthony does this all the time.

[2184] Monica from Macon.

[2185] Yeah, but you're not from Macon.

[2186] I guess it doesn't have to be factual.

[2187] But it's better if it is.

[2188] Yeah.

[2189] Then you can remember two things, something about them and their name.

[2190] Right.

[2191] Yeah.

[2192] And Anthony does this all the time?

[2193] All the time.

[2194] He always has like.

[2195] like a qualifier before the name.

[2196] Oh, I want to know what mine is.

[2197] Can you ask them?

[2198] Sure.

[2199] I'll report back.

[2200] I don't think he probably has one for you because he probably didn't have a hard time of learning your name.

[2201] Because it's so unique?

[2202] Yeah.

[2203] Or because I'm a cult leader.

[2204] Well, you said it not me. Neeshi.

[2205] Number four, make connections.

[2206] So another way association can be helpful is to make a connection between the person you're talking to and someone else you know what the same name.

[2207] I try this all the time.

[2208] Do you?

[2209] Yes, because there's a lot of dudes that float in and out of my AA meeting.

[2210] Yeah.

[2211] And then they'll be sitting there on the couch and I'm staring at their face and I'm like, what friend did I connect them to?

[2212] They don't look like anyone I know.

[2213] It's always the weirdest.

[2214] Oh, that is hard.

[2215] Yeah.

[2216] And then I'm more frustrated trying to remember the person I connected them to then I would just be, yeah.

[2217] That's backfires for me sometimes.

[2218] Okay.

[2219] But it might work for other people.

[2220] Okay.

[2221] And five is really, I mean, this is what all boils down to, choose to care.

[2222] I don't buy that one.

[2223] I do.

[2224] I don't think you can make yourself care.

[2225] Well, I mean.

[2226] Can you make yourself care?

[2227] Well, what happens for me, I find the reason I'm not good at it, because I'm good at remembering.

[2228] I'm not good at hearing it the first time.

[2229] Because I guess I'm too in my head during the introduction that I don't hear their name.

[2230] And then I won't ask again.

[2231] I feel too ashamed to say, what was your name again?

[2232] I can't do it.

[2233] So then I just never know.

[2234] I'm surprised the thing I brought up wasn't in there because I just in my own experience.

[2235] I would have said I was incapable of learning 100 people's names in a month.

[2236] But when I was directing and I needed something from every person, boy, I've never had an easier time.

[2237] Yeah.

[2238] That's a good trick.

[2239] What blows me away is teachers.

[2240] Like they don't need shit from those kids.

[2241] And I'll walk into these classrooms day two.

[2242] and these teachers know all the kids' names.

[2243] I'm blown away because there's no status thing.

[2244] They can't do anything for them.

[2245] Other than I guess they've got to get them to behave.

[2246] Right.

[2247] Hey, fucking whatever with red hair.

[2248] Daryl.

[2249] Whatever your name is.

[2250] Great, gray t -shirt.

[2251] Stop being glue.

[2252] Yeah.

[2253] Maybe because you do need to, you need to communicate with now because you get control.

[2254] You call on them.

[2255] So you do also, there's a repetition and you get used to it.

[2256] They're also all sitting in the exact same spot every day.

[2257] So the visual.

[2258] You hope.

[2259] Well, that's true.

[2260] They could pull a fast one on you.

[2261] That's it.

[2262] We also talked about the Nuremberg ring, but they're really.

[2263] But who cares?

[2264] Who cares about that?

[2265] So, yeah, that's all.

[2266] Okay, great.

[2267] All right.

[2268] Well, I love you, and I can't wait to hit the road with you tomorrow.

[2269] Me either.

[2270] We'll get to listen to some podcasts.

[2271] That's my favorite part about driving to the dunes.

[2272] Oh, yeah.

[2273] Is we get to see what else is going on.

[2274] That'll be fun, yeah.

[2275] All right.

[2276] I love you.

[2277] Love you.

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