#1474 - Dr. Rhonda Patrick

[0] What are you saying?

[1] Damn you.

[2] You suck.

[3] No, it's not that embarrassing.

[4] You just, go ahead.

[5] Like sometimes when I get nervous, my eye will start watering.

[6] I don't think that's odd.

[7] I think that's probably pretty normal.

[8] I mean, your system's fired up and, you know, your eyes are probably trying to clear themselves.

[9] Right?

[10] Maybe, you know, I mean, I'm just speculating.

[11] Maybe people will message me after this podcast and be like, that happens to me too and I'll feel better.

[12] I'm sure.

[13] Sure.

[14] It doesn't sound that odd.

[15] It's certainly not embarrassing.

[16] So I don't know why I'm embarrassed by eyes watering if you're nervous.

[17] Thanks for being here.

[18] I really appreciate it.

[19] I am super always happy to come.

[20] Well, we've been talking and we've been talking about immune systems.

[21] And this is one of the main things that I wanted to talk to you about.

[22] Like, what are the trick?

[23] Because all we're hearing is shelter in place, wear a mask.

[24] Don't touch anybody.

[25] Don't go outside.

[26] But we're not hearing what can you do to strengthen your immune system.

[27] And I think that as a public health, a public service, you know, health thing, this is one of the most important things that I think you can really focus and concentrate on and an actual thing that you could be proactive about during this weird time.

[28] Yeah.

[29] Well, definitely, I think focusing on, you know, lifestyle factors that you can, you know, possibly modulate your immune system and strengthen it is important.

[30] And what's interesting is that the immune system, you know, after doing just so much, of course, the past like couple of months, I've been nothing but like reading about the immune system and trying to understand, of course, this new virus, SARS -Cove 2.

[31] But I've just learned so much, you know, over the past couple of months.

[32] I'm not an immunologist.

[33] I'm not an infectious disease expert.

[34] So, you know, while I've had some training in immunology, I definitely, you know, didn't know, don't know everything there is to know.

[35] But just, you know, doing some reading about, like, why are people's immune system so different?

[36] Like, that's the big thing.

[37] Like, when you take, like, a young population, as you get older, your immune system does decline.

[38] I mean, there's lots of changes that occur.

[39] But, like, in general, like, people have different immune systems.

[40] And what's interesting is that there's been tons of, like, genetic studies done on, like, you know, identical twins.

[41] And they're followed over time.

[42] And what's found is that genetics is not the major regulator of immune function.

[43] it's something in the environment and this is what surprised me and it's not totally going to answer your question but we can totally get to that but one of the main things besides age that regulates the immune system is like previous exposure to viruses so I thought that was really interesting and in particular one virus the cytomegalovirus CMV did you know like between 50 to 80 % of the U .S. population has it at least by the time they're like an adult Has it permanently or has caught it?

[44] It's a herpes virus, so it's a lifelong thing.

[45] And this is why it basically so, it changes your immune system.

[46] What are the symptoms of it?

[47] Most people that are healthy don't ever know they have it because there's no symptoms.

[48] Whoa.

[49] Yeah, unless you're immunocompromised.

[50] But most people that are healthy, they don't know, you know, that they're infected with it.

[51] Say it again?

[52] What is it called?

[53] The cytomegalovirus.

[54] It's CMV.

[55] Sounds like something Godzilla fights.

[56] There it is.

[57] So what's so interesting, but here's the interesting.

[58] thing about this virus is that it so this is one of the major things multiple studies have been looking at like you know just immune variability and it's like CMV has been identified in multiple studies and the thing that the reason it got me interested because I was like 80 almost 80 percent I mean I could have it right totally have it and it changes the immune function it's totally different between young and old so so when you're younger and if you have it it actually enhances immune function.

[59] So they've done studies where they have given people influenza vaccine.

[60] And oftentimes these vaccine studies are used to kind of test the immune response and like how robust your immune response is because you're given a vaccine and there's all different types of vaccines, you know, pieces of an antigen or all different types of, you know, ways that you can expose someone to bacteria or virus.

[61] But you have a response to it.

[62] And the response is, you know, involves your adaptive immunity.

[63] You make what's called neutralizing antibodies that, you know, basically eventually bind to the virus and neutralize it, prevent it from entering the cell.

[64] So people that have CMB that are young have a really robust response to the vaccine, much better.

[65] But older people have the complete opposite where it's like, you know, deleterious.

[66] And the reason for that scientists think is because basically this virus, it's, it's, it's, it's.

[67] stuck with you lifelong and it kind of reactivates every few years.

[68] And like every time it reactivates, it kind of trains your T cells, you know, which are part of your immune system, to become focused on that CMV.

[69] And so as you get older, your T cell population becomes more focused on fighting that virus and less so on other viruses that you're exposed to.

[70] But this virus doesn't have any symptoms?

[71] Most healthy people don't have any symptoms with it.

[72] I know.

[73] It's really like, it's really weird.

[74] So what I'm wondering, and the reason I'm even like going here, it has nothing to do with, you know, taking vitamin C or zinc, and we can talk about all that stuff and vitamin D. But I just thought it was so damn interesting because we hear all these stories in the news where, you know, some people are asymptomatic.

[75] Some people are, you know, and some people are just really getting, you know, hard hit.

[76] And these people, let's say they're more age matched, right?

[77] We know that elderly people are more prone to severe form.

[78] But it just means.

[79] made me think, what if this, you know, previous, previous viral exposure to something like CMV is, is kind of like also kind of shaping people's immune responses in some way.

[80] Surely people are going to be looking at that, but I just thought that was a really interesting thing to come across, you know, and then the other sort of on the same, on the same, along the same lines as previous, you know, previous virus exposure is like something that really seems to be something that is a main regulator of how people, like, what, how you're, you're immune you know what your immune response is you know and so so you mean by how many times you've caught the flu how many times you've had whether you respond to it how you respond to it you know yeah I mean like if you get the flu is it going to not is it like a three day kind of thing or is it going to knock you out for two weeks kind of thing that's what I mean right so um I mean if you if you get a sample like there's been these zero surveys where they basically um that just means they they'll get get a sample of plasma and look for different antibodies viral antibodies and they'll find at any given points a person has like antibodies against 10 different viruses just randomly.

[81] You know, so you're you're constantly being exposed to viruses.

[82] You're not always.

[83] You just don't succumb to them.

[84] Right.

[85] You're not always getting sick.

[86] And so, you know, like another really interesting kind of thing is like, you know, there's, so the SARS -cove -2 virus is part of a family of coronaviruses called the beta -coronoviruses.

[87] So SARS -cove -1, the virus that was responsible for the virus.

[88] original SARS outbreak in 2002 or something.

[89] The mayor's one in the Middle East, and then there's two different ones that are responsible for the common cold.

[90] Now, coronaviruses are only responsible between like 15 to 30 percent of common cold cases.

[91] So it's not like the common cold is the illness you get, but there's lots of different viruses that can cause it.

[92] But what's interesting is that there's been studies showing that these two beta coronaviruses that are responsible for some of the common cold cross -react with, so there's one that cross -reacts with the SARS -cove -1, which has a very, it's very, the sequence is very homologous to SARS -cove -2 virus.

[93] And it's also been shown that the SARS -Cove 1, the antibodies against the SARS -Cove 1 can neutralize the, it's a common cold one.

[94] So there's like cross -immunity happening between these other viruses, right?

[95] And so there's been some studies by the CDC on SARS -CoV -2 where they found basically that people that are infected with SARS -Cove 2 also boost their antibodies against the common cold ones.

[96] So, you know, there's certainly, I think, a good hypothesis to be made that potentially, you know, one or two of these common cold viruses could, the antibodies you make against them could also somehow maybe, you know, interact.

[97] with the SARS -CoV -2 virus, potentially neutralize it.

[98] I mean, that's a big open question that seems possible without, we don't have an answer to that.

[99] I think we will.

[100] Like, there's large -scale, serial surveys being done.

[101] I know at least three that I think his name is Dr. Michael Bush.

[102] He's at UCSF.

[103] He's doing, like, really large surveys where they're going to be analyzing CRF and people from, like, you know, blood donors and stuff and, like, following them over the courses.

[104] several years to see um you know just basically understand more so now what is the speculation if there's any sort of uniform speculation as to why when you hear about prisons where a lot of these prisoners i don't know if you've seen that there's a video going around where one prisoner had uh SARS SARS cov to COVID 19 whatever and spitting into a cup and then passing it around to all these other inmates so they could all get it so that they get released So these, because they're releasing people, especially California, which is so wacky, they're releasing sex offenders.

[105] And there's been some really high profile releases of these horrible people that should be in jail probably forever and they're releasing them.

[106] It's like it's really disturbing.

[107] But what would cause other than something like that?

[108] What would cause all of these prisoners to not just be positive?

[109] That makes sense.

[110] But to all be asymptomatic.

[111] Is there any speculation as to why these large groups?

[112] There was another one that was a meat packing plant where most of the people were asymptomatic as well.

[113] I wasn't aware of the meat placking one being asymptomatic.

[114] But I did read about the one in prison and it was like blowing my mind.

[115] 98%.

[116] Like what's going on?

[117] Like that's insane.

[118] It's kind of like you read these stories.

[119] So this is like there's one thing that it's important to keep in mind when we say asymptomatic.

[120] Like you know, there's asymptomatic in like a person that never actually gets symptoms, right?

[121] And then there's asymptomatic.

[122] So there was a study done at the CDC.

[123] I don't know, a month ago, maybe a little more, where they measured, like, they did the nasal pharyngeal swab test in a nursing home, 70 -something people, and 13 of them tested asymptomatic, like they had no symptoms, but they tested positive.

[124] But then they went back a week later, and 10 of those people had symptoms, and three were asymptomatic.

[125] So unless, like, there's another, like if you test someone and they're asymptomatic at that time of testing, they could be pre -symptomatic, right?

[126] In other words, like, you have to go back a week later and see if they have symptoms.

[127] Right.

[128] Because that's really important.

[129] So let's say even, you know, you know, 60 % are asymptomatic.

[130] Like, I don't know if they went back and tested a week later if it was just like a single time.

[131] Right.

[132] But that's what, that's what, this is what got me thinking about this whole thing was, you know, in the prisons and jails, I mean, they're in close quarters and there, you got one virus that someone's exposed to you and they all get it, right?

[133] So like, what if there's, I don't know the CMV, you know, percentage there, but what if the coronaviruses are going around there?

[134] What if, what if, you know, some common cold coronavirus has gone around and that, you know, those antibodies that they've made to neutralize that coronavirus, beta coronavirus are somehow helping with the SARS Cove, too.

[135] Like, I would love to see that tested.

[136] Do you know if they immunize people, did vaccinate people when they go into jail?

[137] I was trying to figure that out as well because, like, the tuberculosis, um, tuberculosis.

[138] One of the types of vaccines they do for TB, I think they do it in like Japan and some other countries where they've got a really low death rate.

[139] And so they're kind of, that's a test.

[140] That's like clinical trial that's now going on where they're trying to test.

[141] But I was trying to figure out, is there a vaccination?

[142] Is there something like?

[143] I would imagine it would be simple for them to do that.

[144] You're entering into prison.

[145] They just vaccinate you just to.

[146] I couldn't come to an answer.

[147] I was, I was searching for that the other day.

[148] I was trying to figure that out.

[149] But I think that's also a really good.

[150] I mean, there's a ton of theories, right?

[151] Right.

[152] I mean, it's just you could go on and on and on.

[153] But the whole, the thing that I just think that I would like to see more research and I'm just hoping, you know, that that CDC and other people are investigating these other, the cross immunity, right?

[154] Like, if there's antibodies that you're making against another coronavirus, beta coronavirus that's in the same family as this SARS one.

[155] No one's had SARS one in the United States, you know, so like that one doesn't, that that's not as relevant as.

[156] but the common cold, you know, that's very common, right?

[157] So, you know, if 15 to 30 percent of the common cold is composed of coronaviruses, we know at least two of those coronaviruses are in the same family that have been identified to make, at least in one case, there's been neutralizing antibodies, so there has been cross -immunity, then you'd think, why not test that?

[158] Like, get some animal studies started on that, you know?

[159] Speaking of animal studies, there was an article that I was reading yesterday that was saying that they're hoping that, They've found some antibodies in llamas that they're hoping they're going to be able to because of, see if you can find this.

[160] Because of these antibodies in llamas, they're hoping they can either transfer them to people or learn something about how these antibodies are created.

[161] But llamas seem to be, here it is, llamas can be the key to fighting new coronaviruses.

[162] Research says, make that larger.

[163] that says it may sound bizarre to most, but llamas can be the key to fighting new coronavirus.

[164] Researchers from Belgium.

[165] Remember, that's the big lady that I was showing you earlier?

[166] She's the health lady.

[167] And the United States published an article this week in the journal cell that highlights the potential use of llama antibodies to prevent COVID -19 infections.

[168] Antibodies from a four -year -old Belgian llama named Winter show promise in blocking coronavirus from infecting cells according to research from the University of Texas, Austin, the National Institutes of Health, and the Ghent, how do you say that, Ghent, G -H -E -N -T, University.

[169] Studying early forms of the coronavirus's researchers have found an antibody in winter that effectively attached itself and neutralize spike protein in SARS -Cove 1 and MERS Cove.

[170] Researchers believe the particular antibody, which has been found in other llamas as well, can be injected into an uninfected individual to protect them from getting infected with the new coronavirus.

[171] That's very interesting.

[172] Yeah.

[173] So I think, you know, there's, there's lots of avenues for, you know, therapeutics.

[174] And, you know, in addition to like repurposing drugs, monoclonal antibodies, you know, being able to basically identify antibodies that do neutralize SARS -CoV -2 virus, whether they come from llamas or humans, you know, and basically identify the specific antibody that combine to that spike protein that you just mentioned, which is that region, it's known that the antibodies bind there and neutralized it.

[175] It's also the region that is used to get inside of the cell.

[176] So monoclonal antibodies, I think, are a really big, you know, possibility for a promising therapeutic because you can then, I mean, the problem is growing, like large -scale manufacturing them, right?

[177] So, like, if you can identify these antibodies and then manufacture them, you can inject them in people and then potentially get some protection.

[178] The problem is, is that it's not going to, like, it's just going to be a short -lived protection.

[179] Like, it's going to be, it's not like you can, it's not like a vaccine where your body's making its own antibodies and they're, and they're more longer lived, you know, but.

[180] So in areas where people are getting exposed, perhaps you could give it to them and it would stop them from getting, but how long will you say short -lived?

[181] Well, we don't know.

[182] I mean, how long.

[183] So it's, you know, it's probably enough to, like, if you're a health care worker, your first -line, you know, health, you know, first responder, people that are definitely, like, being exposed to large doses of the virus, that could be a promising area.

[184] But also, I think, even just treating patients, like, that have already been infected, you know, so that's, that's also another, so, like, in combination with some of this other stuff, like from desivere, which is, you know, it's not like a silver bullet, but it seems like it's also promising, probably with combination of other factors as well.

[185] But, yeah, the monoclonal antibodies is a really – I know there's like regenerons, a big company.

[186] They're growing some large -scale ones.

[187] I think they isolated from humanized mice or something.

[188] But there's other companies that have isolated them from humans that have been affected.

[189] So, you know, that's definitely a promising area for sure.

[190] And a good thing about that is that – have you heard of antibody -dependent enhancement?

[191] Do you know?

[192] No. All right.

[193] So basically, when your body is exposed to a pathogen, like a virus, your innate immune system, you know, the first line of defense like neutrophils, things like that are making hydrogen peroxide trying to kill the virus.

[194] But then in the background, your adaptive immune system, and I'm just totally generalizing, is also working in the background.

[195] And, you know, part of that adaptive immune response is, you know, to produce antibodies.

[196] So you have memory B cells that are making antibodies that are specific to bind to different regions.

[197] epitopes on the virus and neutralize them, prevent them from getting inside of the cell.

[198] And so that adaptive immune system usually takes about seven days after you're exposed to the virus, right?

[199] The problem is antibody dependent enhancement.

[200] So sometimes a neutralizing antibody is an antibody that can bind to the virus and neutralize it.

[201] Stop it from entering your cell, right?

[202] So it's doing its job.

[203] But you sometimes make antibodies that are non -neutralizing or don't.

[204] do as good of a job.

[205] They don't bind as tight or something.

[206] And then you can have what's called antibody dependent enhancement.

[207] And this was like a big problem for the RSV vaccine.

[208] Back in the, you know, like most kids get RSV.

[209] It's a respiratory tract infection.

[210] The most kids get it by the time they're two.

[211] Like there's no vaccine that that's given.

[212] Back in the 60s, there was this antibody dependent enhancement happened in some clinical studies with toddlers.

[213] And, And then some toddlers got really, really sick and a couple died.

[214] But what happens is basically the antibody binds to that there's a couple of things.

[215] The antibody binds to the virus and can basically change its confirmation and allow the virus to get into the cell better.

[216] So then you become like, you know, you get like a higher viral load and then you don't have antibodies to neutralize it.

[217] And it just, you know, it could be more, it could be, it could lead to death.

[218] The other thing that happens is the antibody binds to the virus.

[219] It doesn't neutralize it, but it like makes this crazy immune complex that like activates your immune system to just go haywire.

[220] and it causes all sorts of pathology.

[221] And that's what happened with the RSV toddlers.

[222] So there's a few viruses that this happens with.

[223] And unfortunately, coronavirus is one.

[224] Like this has been identified with the SARS -Cove 1 virus and I think marriage as well.

[225] Where so this is also a problem with vaccines.

[226] So like people, like giving the vaccine, people's immune response, some people can have that antibody -dependent enhancement.

[227] And that's what was shown to happen with these with the SARS -Cove 1.

[228] And there was some non -human primate studies that did that.

[229] And also animal studies as well.

[230] So, you know, the thing with monoclonal antibodies is there a little more specific because you know they neutralize and you're like growing them up.

[231] Like you've done all that test as opposed to just letting your immune system do its thing.

[232] And then potentially, you know, you may have this like non -neutralizing antibody that could cause problems.

[233] But that's kind of the concern.

[234] And I know that the vaccine, people that are working in vaccines are working on them.

[235] I mean, it's like they're concerned, I mean, about that and completely trying to, like, figure that all out.

[236] It's such a strange virus.

[237] It almost seems like there's multiple viruses.

[238] There are.

[239] Yeah.

[240] So, I mean, there's – and it's funny that because it's kind of connected to this antibody -dependent enhancement, there's – there's been quite a few different, like, forms, like mutations that have been identified.

[241] But two particular in that spike protein region, that's, like, an important region because antibodies bind there and because that's the region, like, that, you know, the virus uses.

[242] to get into the cell.

[243] And so there's been two major, like, strains that have been identified.

[244] And one of them, so it's in the spike region, and it's an aspartate to glycine mutation.

[245] And basically in Asia, in China, the predominant form is the aspartate, the original, quote -unquote, form.

[246] And then in Europe and also in North America, this other form, the glycine mutant is predominant.

[247] And there's been studies that have shown looking at, like, okay, looking in parts of Europe, different countries in Europe that have this predominant form, that they're basically, there's a higher mortality rate.

[248] But they didn't actually measure the infected patients.

[249] So, you know, it's kind of like correlation.

[250] But what's interesting is that there's actually been a genetic link to this mutant.

[251] So there's studies, there's been some large -scale genetic studies that have found that Asians, about 20 % of Asians, have a, a basically a nucleotide change in a gene that encodes for a protease that's involved in this, you know, basically in allowing this virus to get into the cell.

[252] But that basically prevents them from having this mutant that's predominant in Europe and also in New York and North America in general.

[253] That's interesting because my friend Michael, who got it, his mom who got it, who's in her 70s, is Asian.

[254] And she kicked it in a day.

[255] That is interesting.

[256] So there's something, so they're, I wonder if she has that snips.

[257] So we, we're, our genetic report that we have, like, we've got one that's like a new viral report, it's a free one where we're kind of like putting some of these interesting snips, which don't mean anything.

[258] I mean, like, you know, it's just information that, you know, was interesting.

[259] There's a lot of researchers out there trying to, like, figure out if genetics is involved in this.

[260] But the thing that's so interesting about that mutation is that it's in that spike region and it's where the antibody binds and there's a, there's like a theory going.

[261] going around because that specific region, it's been shown in SARS -CoV -1 to cause antibody -dependent enhancement.

[262] So there's a theory that potentially that mutation is causing people's immune system to hyperactivate and basically become more active and it can lead to a more severe COVID -19 illness.

[263] That's not been shown.

[264] Like, it's not been shown at all.

[265] So, but it's interesting, right?

[266] It's interesting how in Asia and China particularly, I mean, about 1 % of the population, it's like less than 1 % has the other mutation.

[267] The glycine mutation that's in New York, it's in, you know, in most of the United States, but that, that in less than 1 % of the population in China has that form.

[268] So weird.

[269] And Japan has a very low mortality rate, correct?

[270] Yeah, they do.

[271] I know that that, I was mentioning that TB vaccine, that's one thing that they're investigating.

[272] I mean, there's all sorts of differences in handling the whole, you know, from the beginning, just how you, how you handle the virus.

[273] I mean, like, there's, there's too many factors to, like, say one thing, but, you know, there's lots of, there's lots of possibilities.

[274] And I think that that, that, I think that eventually there's going to be therapeutics that are identified, you know, multiple ones maybe.

[275] And I think vitamin D is going to potentially play a role there.

[276] But, I mean, just, like, things like remdesivir and, you know, monoclonal antibodies.

[277] And then you eventually, like, you know, a vaccine will, you know, eventually, you know, be available, but I think until that point, I do think that things will be identified that just kind of help us, like, deal with this, like, better, you know?

[278] What is the going on with blood types?

[279] One of the things we talked about earlier, you asked my blood type, and I said O positive.

[280] Yeah.

[281] Why is O positive better?

[282] Well, there's been some data, and this was also identified with SARS -Cove 1, that people with type O blood they make antibodies, they make type A antibodies, whereas people with type A blood, they make antibodies against, like they make against the B antigen.

[283] And so the type A antibodies were identified.

[284] So there's been studies looking at people with type O blood or type A blood and also type B. And type O blood, there's like less, less frequency of getting COVID -19.

[285] So as opposed to having a severe form, it's just like you're less likely to contract it even.

[286] And it's thought because the type A antibodies that people with type O blood make neutralize the, they basically bind to that region, that spike region, and neutralize the antibody and prevent it from the virus from entering the cell.

[287] So that's, at least that was the mechanism that was shown with Sarge Cove 1.

[288] So it's thought, oh, well, the same, we're seeing the same, you know, pattern where people with type O are protected from Sarge Cove 1.

[289] too possibly that's that's also why but another really interesting thing is that people with typo blood you we were also talking about these like blood clots and like I mean there's all kinds of crazy things you read I mean I'm reading all these publications just just and then the other thing is all these publications are being uploaded on you know before they're peer reviewed and I mean some of them are just a mess and it's just anyways but you know you kind of just take it with the grain and salt um where these clots are like you know there's clots in people that are healthy and young, certainly people that have severe cases, people like older people, people that are pre -existing conditions and stuff.

[290] And the type O blood, people have lower levels of this Vaughan -Willi -Brand factor, which basically is involved in clotting.

[291] And it's been shown that that Von Willa -Bron factor also is higher in people with SARS -Cove 2.

[292] It was shown to also be that with SARS -Cove 1.

[293] And it's involved with clotting.

[294] So having lower levels may somehow even help protect against.

[295] That's a theory.

[296] It hasn't been shown.

[297] But what is known is that people with typo blood are less susceptible to contracting COVID -19.

[298] That's definitely known.

[299] But I mean, I think there's so many things.

[300] There's just there's so many factors that.

[301] A lot of data that needs to be parsed out, right?

[302] For sure.

[303] I mean, a lot of data that needs to parse out, a lot of data that needs to be generated.

[304] And, you know, we need higher quality data.

[305] We need, you know, people to repeat stuff.

[306] I mean, like, look what's happened with this hydroxychloroquine stuff, right?

[307] I mean, I mean, it's just kind of a mess where initially it seemed like could be helpful.

[308] And then just more and more studies came out where it was not only not helpful.

[309] It was, you know, toxic.

[310] It was causing people to have dangerous arrhythmias and stuff.

[311] Yeah.

[312] You know, so that's that's kind of the reason to kind of be cautious when you have something new in a small and one small study.

[313] This just seems like in the beginning at least they're trying to figure out what the correct treatment was for these people as they were just showing up en masse in the emergency rooms.

[314] And they didn't really know.

[315] And doctors, they varied in how they approached it.

[316] My friend Michael, his doctor, didn't put him on a ventilator.

[317] And he said if I put him on a ventilator, he's probably going to die.

[318] Right.

[319] Because he said his body's going to start.

[320] stop working because it's it's going to let the ventilator do the breathing for him and it's going to give up and what he was talking about after the fact what michael was talking about was how that is proven to be correct in new york and that some monstrous number like 80 percent of the people that put on ventilators wind up done not just new york i like i like i've had friends that are physicians that have like you know in uh new Orleans i mean same thing where it's like You know, there was someone on my team, we were doing some research on this, and I didn't sort of dive into the whole thing, but he was telling me that ventilators do actually, like, cause more damage to the lungs.

[321] And, like, he'd been reading some studies to, like, confirm that.

[322] And he was pretty certain that the ventilators actually caused damage and actually could, like, induce damage, where it's, like, making it worse.

[323] So.

[324] But I don't know.

[325] I don't know.

[326] I don't know all the specifics of that.

[327] All I know is that it, looking at the statistics, like if you go on a ventilator, I mean, surely it seems like the outcome's not very, it doesn't seem like it's going to be very good.

[328] Right.

[329] But it's hard to say, is that the cause of it or is a, you know, is it just that they're so fucked up by the time they get on a ventilator, they just wind up dying.

[330] Right.

[331] Well, here, like the, the, there's been some really interesting data looking at, like in the, there's so in the Philippines and Indonesia.

[332] where else?

[333] I think New Orleans as well.

[334] They've looked at patients that have died and their vitamin D levels.

[335] And basically like in the Philippines, you know, people that for like every standard deviation increase in vitamin D levels, serum vitamin D levels, you know, the people had like an eight percent or were eightfold, eight times less likely to have a severe form of COVID -19.

[336] And if they had and they were 20 times less likely to have critical, like, critical form of COVID -19.

[337] Whoa.

[338] So that was the Philippines.

[339] In the Indonesia was a really interesting study where, like, they measured vitamin D. And this was measured in the patients.

[340] There's been some vitamin D studies also where they're like looking at, you know, countries that have been affected the worst and they all like have low vitamin D. And it's like, okay, well, anyways, that's a correlation.

[341] But well, so is this.

[342] But it's a little stronger data.

[343] In Indonesia, patients that died.

[344] 90, almost 100%, it was like 98 point something percent of patients that died with COVID -19 were vitamin D deficient.

[345] 4 % of patients that died from COVID -19 were vitamin D sufficient, or say 4%, only 4 % were vitamin D sufficient.

[346] So basically they were all vitamin D deficient, all the ones that are dying.

[347] Whoa.

[348] Crazy, right?

[349] And like New Orleans had some crazy number.

[350] What would be the mechanism that would cause that?

[351] So I think there's, all right.

[352] Can we get into vitamin D?

[353] Please do.

[354] It's a big, I really think.

[355] Well, because of you, I take 5 ,000 IUs a day.

[356] Awesome.

[357] Right now I'm taking 5 ,000 IUs a day.

[358] You know, 70 % of the U .S. population has insufficient vitamin D levels, which is considered less than, blood levels, less than 30 milligrams, nanograms per milliliter.

[359] This is something that your body can generate naturally if you're exposed to this on a daily basis.

[360] Yes.

[361] That's the best way to get it.

[362] It is.

[363] But the problem is, is that we don't go outside anymore.

[364] And, you know, especially now.

[365] Yeah, especially now.

[366] Exactly.

[367] Now more than ever.

[368] And what a terrible recipe, right?

[369] Vitamin D deficiency is what makes it worse.

[370] And then you're staying inside so you're not getting any vitamin D. Yeah.

[371] You're becoming even more deficient, you know?

[372] Like somewhere like 28 % of the U .S. population is actually deficient, like less than 20 nanograms from milk.

[373] You know, like that's defined deficiency.

[374] So there's a lot of people in the United States.

[375] States.

[376] As you mentioned, you make it from the sun, so particularly UVB radiation.

[377] There's a reason why I want to talk about this.

[378] You make it from UVB radiation exposure, you know, basically it's made in the skin.

[379] But, you know, there's certain times of the year, depending on where you live in a more northern latitude where that UVB isn't even hitting the atmosphere.

[380] So you're not making vitamin D. Also, if you have darker skin, melanin protects you like the whole, you know, Well, people with darker skin, people from maybe Africa or India or South Asia, they're more equatoral regions.

[381] They're closer, you know, closer to the equator and there's more UVB radiation throughout the year.

[382] And so as a protective mechanism to not get burned, you have melanin, which protects you, right?

[383] The problem is that melanin also blocks your ability to produce vitamin D. But if you're out in the sun all the time, you know, in a place where you're getting UVB radiation, not a problem.

[384] Well, this is the very reason why people in places like Scotland and England have such pale skin.

[385] Exactly.

[386] It's cloudy all the time, so your body sort of develops its own ability to absorb more vitamin D. Exactly.

[387] So what happens when you take some, what happens when you take a person from South Asia, from India, from Africa, and you put them in Sweden or in Minnesota or in the UK?

[388] A place where UVB radiation doesn't hit most of the year and you don't give them a supplement.

[389] What happens is they become severely vitamin D deficient, severely.

[390] And what happens when you take, I mean, I mean, you can throw this on the, you can flip, flip this over and say, okay, what happens when you take the guy from the UK, the Brit, and put him in Australia, like without any sunscreen or without a hat or another cancer?

[391] They're going to, yeah.

[392] So, I mean, do you think that this could be a factor in why so many African Americans are getting hit so hard?

[393] Yes.

[394] So here's the thing.

[395] So African Americans are, There's lots of, all right.

[396] African Americans are in the United States.

[397] There's been studies.

[398] African Americans are severely deficient.

[399] They're 28 times more deficient in vitamin D than Caucasians.

[400] Whoa.

[401] Yeah.

[402] And it's because they have darker skin.

[403] And, you know, if they're not getting enough sun.

[404] They're not getting enough sun because people stay inside more.

[405] People stay inside, you know, it's not like the old days when we were out, hunter, gatherer, and out in the sun all the time.

[406] We're inside all the time.

[407] We're in school.

[408] We're at work in our office in our cubicle.

[409] So the CDC, you know, obviously there's been studies showing that African Americans are more hit.

[410] But they didn't really correct for tons of like other factors because socioeconomic status is important.

[411] Other health factors, you know.

[412] And but there was a big study just released not long ago from like the National Office of Statistics in Britain or something like that.

[413] I don't know what their official name was.

[414] but they released some statistics from England and Wales.

[415] And the, I don't know what the correct name to say.

[416] I mean, the blacks, they are basically living in England and in Wales are four times more likely to die of COVID -19 than whites.

[417] When they adjusted all that data for socioeconomic status and for other health factors, there were two times more likely to die.

[418] So clearly, socioeconomic status and other health factors are playing a role.

[419] but there's something else unidentified.

[420] And I think it's vitamin D. I think that, you know, so, you know, the vitamin D, like, it hasn't, look, vitamin, I'm not saying that vitamin D is going to prevent you from getting COVID -19 or it's a treatment, although I am involved in a clinical study where we're going to be testing a very small open arm study we can talk about.

[421] But, you know, I'm not a physician.

[422] I'm a medical doctor.

[423] I've never intubated anyone.

[424] So don't think I'm saying that.

[425] I don't want people to think I'm saying it's a treatment.

[426] I just want to, it's a hypothesis that needs.

[427] needs to be tested.

[428] And thankfully, there are clinical trials, randomized control trials that are now ongoing and some that are recruiting.

[429] But just the statistics that you've already listed about vitamin D and the people that have had COVID -19, those are insane.

[430] It's insane.

[431] And also in Sweden, there's a huge population of Somalis that have migrated to Sweden.

[432] And they have been identified as being severely vitamin D deficient because a lot of the Somalis have also like autism rates are really high there.

[433] And there's this link between, I published a link also between vitamin D and autism.

[434] But so there's been studies looking at vitamin D levels in the Somali population.

[435] I mean, they are so deficient because you're taking, again, you're taking someone who's supposed to be, who's, you know, evolved to be getting a lot of sun, but not burn from it.

[436] And then, and then putting them in a place where they can't get any vitamin D from the sun.

[437] And if they don't get a supplement, like they're going to be deficient, you know, and they're so much more likely they're like they're like it's it's wreaking havoc in sweden on the Somali population that is so logical yeah it's it's and then okay so elderly elderly are like insanely more deficient I forgot the exact number obese also obese people are like three times more likely to be vitamin deficient in the United States why is that because vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin and it's less it's been shown to be 50 % less bioavailable so you have to after you make it in your skin it's stored in fat and you know it's it's released when, you know, basically into the bloodstream and then it gets converted into a hormone.

[438] This hormone regulates 5 % more than 5 % of the human protein encoded human genome.

[439] That's a lot of genes.

[440] That's a hormone.

[441] Like, can you imagine just walking around without testosterone?

[442] You're a man. That's a hormone.

[443] I mean, like, because there's a lot of people that are deficient in vitamin D. It's a steroid hormone.

[444] It gets converted into a hormone.

[445] Like, this isn't just a vitamin, you know.

[446] It's important.

[447] It's really important.

[448] so I went off on a tangent but anyways what can I ask you this boy we're off in this tangent what is when you what is happening to people when they are vitamin D like what's happening in vitamin D deficient what is happening in the body that's causing their immune system this this hormone deficiency not having this vitamin D whether it's through sun exposure so there's lots of things I mean it plays a there's vitamin D receptors on like your immune cells and and the reason for that is because when the hormone vitamin D hormone binds to the receptor, it activates all these genes and that the genes do stuff that are, you know, regulate immune function.

[449] You know, there's studies that have shown people, and I love these studies, because they basically take away people's complaints about, you know, there's lots of epidemiological studies showing that low vitamin D is associated with disease, X, Y, or Z. And everyone's like, well, you know, they're out in this, they're not in the sun as much, so they're not as healthy, they're not as physically active, they're not whatever, even though those confounding factors are usually corrected for it's old at the end of day it's an association right and everyone's like correlations not causation which is true but sometimes you got to like look at the full body of data you know there are genetic polymorphism so so there are people that have variations in genes that cause them to genetically have lower vitamin d and so this this is called medealian randomization when you can take a person that's that has a genetically like it's they're genetically low vitamin D. So you're not categorizing them based on their vitamin D levels.

[450] You're categorizing them based on their gene.

[451] And those people are more likely to die from respiratory infections just based on that gene alone.

[452] So yeah, that gene that it's known to lower it lowers vitamin, it leads to lower vitamin D levels.

[453] And so like those people are more likely to die from respiratory infections than people that don't have that, which it's a great way of kind of randomizing people by their genes as opposed to doing a randomized control trial.

[454] Those have been done as well.

[455] There was a study that was over 25 randomized controlled trials.

[456] People that were given a vitamin D supplement varying doses either weekly or daily, monthly didn't work.

[457] The people with low baseline vitamin D level, so people that were like deficient, they were 50 % less likely to have a respiratory tract infection if they were taking the vitamin D supplement, over 50 % actually.

[458] And people that had already normal levels still had a protective effect.

[459] There was 10 % less likely.

[460] So even people that were already considered normal, taking a vitamin D supplement helped prevent the respiratory tract infection.

[461] Can you take too much vitamin D?

[462] Yes, you can.

[463] You can.

[464] Like, what's too much?

[465] So the upper, the tolerable upper intake has been set by the Nutrition Board, the Institute of Medicine to be 4 ,000 IUs a day.

[466] But there's been studies that have shown that you can, I mean, people that have taken, you know, 10 ,000 I use a day for multiple years haven't had any hypercalcemia.

[467] had, you know, problems.

[468] But too much vitamin D can be toxic.

[469] It's not good to take that.

[470] It's best to, like, get a vitamin D blood test.

[471] And I think that personally, there has been a trend.

[472] So people that have blood levels higher than 60 may have just a little bit higher calcium levels, but not much.

[473] Not like, it's not like anything to be hugely concerned about.

[474] But there are studies also showing that either vitamin K1, so there's been a meta -analysis looking at of 12 different studies, I think, where vitamin K -1 or vitamin K -2 were given.

[475] And both of those improved bone mineral density and prevented any hypercalcemia.

[476] Because when you take vitamin D, you absorb calcium better, like something crazy, like 40 % more dietary calcium is being absorbed.

[477] Wow.

[478] So the problem is is that calcium can easily form a precipitate in general, and particularly when phosphorus is around.

[479] And phosphorus is another thing vitamin D does increase the absorption of.

[480] But again, like I said, you know, it's really hard to find any studies where vitamin D is causing, you know, hypercalcemia unless it's like really, really high dose for a while.

[481] I personally think taking the vitamin K, and what's interesting about the vitamin K1, versus vitamin K2, without going into too much of a tangent, is basically the vitamin K1, normally it goes to your liver and it's involved in blood coagulation, but when there's enough vitamin K1 around, it stays in the periphery and it moves calcium, periphery being bloodstream, it moves calcium out of the bloodstream and takes it to places where it's supposed to go, like the bones and the muscle.

[482] Vitamin K2 usually stays around the periphery.

[483] It doesn't really go to the liver, So that's usually what it's just doing is, you know, moving calcium out and bringing it to the bones.

[484] And so I take a, I actually have K1 in my multi that I take, but I also take a K2 supplement, MK4.

[485] I take it like a couple times a week.

[486] And what dose you're taking for K1?

[487] Well, the K1's in my multi.

[488] So I don't, vitamin K1 is really, it's found in dark, leafy greens.

[489] So I get a lot of those as well.

[490] I get a lot.

[491] So I'm getting a lot of K1.

[492] vitamin K2 is not as it's not as readily found in like the western I mean it's like the food that's highest in it is that fermented soybean natto but it's like small quantities and like do you ever get concerned from the high volume of leafy greens do you ever get conservative oxalates or getting kidney stones or anything along those lines no I like the few studies that I've seen it's then people that are like doing insane juicing and they're already like messed up you know So I'm not concerned at all.

[493] Like even like the oxalates.

[494] So oxalates actually, I don't want to go into this.

[495] So yeah, no, I don't concern.

[496] The vitamin D thing is so important to me. Like the reason, there's a big reason I think that vitamin D is so important.

[497] It's for the lung function and the respiratory function.

[498] But what's really interesting is that, you know, the very receptor that this SARS -CoV virus binds to to gain entry into the cell.

[499] It's called ACE2.

[500] That very receptor plays a really important role in preventing lung damage and basically and preventing acute lung injury, preventing acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS.

[501] And what's been shown with SARS -CoV -1 is that because SARS -Cove 1 also binds to that receptor, ACE -2, it's called.

[502] And that's how it gets into the cell, just like the SARS -Cove 2.

[503] When it binds the receptor, it like attaches and like through this like weird end.

[504] do cytosis mechanism, it takes the receptor in and decreases the receptor, what's called down -regulates.

[505] Down -regulates the receptor, so you end up having less ACE -2, which causes, like, can cause severe lung injury, not having the ACE -2.

[506] It plays a big role in protecting.

[507] That's been shown in multiple studies.

[508] So the SARS -CoV -1 virus does that.

[509] It's thought the Sarge -Cove 2 also does it because it goes through the same, enters through the same receptor.

[510] And it's been shown that, like, if you, for example, if you give mice, lipop -po -poly saccharide or something that's going to cause lung injury.

[511] And then you give them vitamin D. So the lung injury itself also causes the ACE2 receptor to decrease.

[512] And so it's like this vicious cycle of like making the damage worse.

[513] But if you give mice vitamin D before that happens, the ACE2 receptor increases and it protects them from the lung injury.

[514] But you give the vitamin D to control mice that don't have the lung injury.

[515] It doesn't do anything to the ACE2 receptor levels.

[516] So it's not like full stop.

[517] It's not like, you know, drugs.

[518] the way drugs are designed is they like they target a certain molecule and they boom they like do their thing and they either increase it or decrease it a lot of times with like hormones you know vitamins things like that they're they maintain homeostasis you know what i mean like so when when shit goes wrong they fix it they're not just like boom full stop going to like increase something when everything's normal so and that's important because there have been some concerned about taking vitamin D increasing the ACE2 receptor.

[519] And there's another study that was with hypertensive rats where the hypertension caused ACE2 to go down and that like makes lung, it makes all sorts of problems.

[520] It also causes like kidney problems and all sorts of things, right?

[521] But but the vitamin D increased the ACE2, but only in the hypertensive rats, not in the normal control rats again.

[522] So, you know, and then there was another study that was like some other messed up diabetic animal model where the vitamin D actually.

[523] didn't increase the ACE2 receptor, but it increased what's called soluble ACE2, which is in like, it's in the periphery.

[524] And that actually potentially could bind SARS -Co2 virus and prevent it from, it's like sequestering it, preventing it from entering the cell.

[525] That's actually being explored as a potential therapeutic.

[526] So the bottom line here is that sometimes you'll hear this ACE2 receptor and that's how the virus gets in.

[527] And it's like, I don't want that.

[528] I want less of that because that's how the virus gets in.

[529] But like, like, biology is always way more complicated than just a simple taking it out of a big picture, right?

[530] You know, so like the ACE2 receptor, the ACE2 is part of the rean andiotensin system.

[531] It plays a huge role in inflammation.

[532] It's also like when you decrease ACE2, all these signaling cascades happen.

[533] And it's like ACE2 is important for producing pro -inflammatory cytokines at the end of the day without getting into all the stuff, you know, specifics.

[534] so it causes massive inflammation to have a decrease.

[535] It basically causes acute lung injury.

[536] It exacerbates it.

[537] I mean, it's crazy.

[538] So I really, I just, I really, can you imagine if vitamin D really did help?

[539] Like if there was something that could be given along with the other stuff from desivir, whatever, whatever it's going to be the stuff that we identify.

[540] But like vitamin D is so cheap.

[541] It's so easy.

[542] And so many people are deficient and insufficient.

[543] you know like so yes as you mentioned there is you know you don't want to take too much vitamin D you don't want to like you know overdose on it but I think in the short term you know particularly like in the short term and particularly in patient people that have already been infected you know it may be wise to to try giving your patient like if you're a physician you know dealing with this may be wise to try and didn't see their vitamin D levels and perhaps give them some you know is this being explored public i mean is this something that people are talking about publicly because i all i'm hearing is drugs and possible drug remedies potential vaccine that they're working on the future i'm not hearing anything about methods nutrition that boosts your immune system this is one of the reasons why i really wanted to talk to you right now yeah let's definitely talk more there are yes it is so there are clinical studies unfortunately not a ton of them in the United States that are looking, randomized control trials looking at vitamin D, the effects of vitamin D on already, you know, patients with COVID -19, which what would be great is like giving them to like first responders or healthcare workers and seeing like, how does it, how does it, what role does it play in prevention?

[544] Because that's really the easiest thing, right?

[545] I'm involved, a friend of mine, Dr. Eric Gordon, he, he's put together.

[546] So I kind of, with his help, I've helped him design an open arm trial, very small, 40 patients, where he is going to be giving them 50 ,000 IUs every five days of vitamin D. So it's like a weekly dose because a lot of times these people are severely deficient.

[547] So you want to give them a higher dose, you know.

[548] And for, you know, doing 50 ,000 I use weekly isn't, you know, something that's necessarily going to be toxic or anything like that.

[549] And then we're going to, you know, we're doing some other things, vitamin C, three grams.

[550] three times a day and then vitamin B1.

[551] We can talk about that, Thymann as well.

[552] But so, yeah, there are, I think there's like open label trials.

[553] Open label trials are just kind of a start.

[554] It's like if you see something, plus we're doing like kitchen sink, right?

[555] We got this, this and this and this.

[556] So I think vitamin D really is the star.

[557] You know, I think that potentially, you know, I think it really should be explored.

[558] I think it has huge potential.

[559] It has to be shown.

[560] Like this isn't something that people can just, you know, take it home and think I'm protected like that is not the case we don't know that like you know there's no data showing that but i think it has huge potential um you know so how would one do a randomized control study on vitamin d and people that have covid 19 like it seems like well they're going to do it in addition to they're going to in addition to standard of care so it's basically whatever the standard of care is and that's that's what you know is happening at the the hundredton hospital in new jersey but as you said it seems like what's really critical is getting it to people before they get it Yeah, I would love to see that study done.

[561] If anyone can do that study, amazing.

[562] That would be, because that would be like, to me. Get it to nurses, get it to first responders, E &T workers.

[563] Or even just get the information out there and have nurses and first responders take it.

[564] I mean, you know, vitamin D is something, again, like 70 % of the U .S. population has insufficient levels, you know.

[565] That is such a crazy number.

[566] It is.

[567] And it's generally safe to take like 4 ,000 I use.

[568] a day it is taking five i am but four thousand's the the top the the the what the they indicated as the tolerable upper intake so why do you take five i'm just taking five thousand right now because that's like the i could buy the five i was like i didn't want to take two pills of the two thousand well that's me too i got one pill it's five thousand right and i'm like well so i had my my levels measured literally like i went to quest um quest labs like a month before all this lockdown happened So I got my data back pretty recent.

[569] And I still hover around 50 nanograms per mill, even though before I was taking 4 ,000.

[570] It didn't generally speaking, 1 ,000 IUs will raise your blood levels by about 5 nanograms per mil.

[571] And there are people with different variations in genes that are related to vitamin D metabolism where they have lower levels and they need a higher dose.

[572] The only way you're going to know that is by, of course, measuring your vitamin D levels multiple times and then potentially even doing like a genetic analysis, you know, as well.

[573] but you have to measure your levels.

[574] Like, that's the only way to know.

[575] Of course, right now, it's like, you can't go to a laugh.

[576] It's, like, hard to do any of that.

[577] I mean, the things that are, like, normally.

[578] Yeah, but.

[579] Right now when you need it.

[580] But the vitamin D, I mean, I'm just so, like, I just, I have so much, I have high hopes for it, you know.

[581] And maybe I'm a bit of an enthusiast with it.

[582] You know, I do.

[583] Like, I've studied vitamin D so much.

[584] I've got two publications on it.

[585] I certainly, like, you know, so, you know, they're taking.

[586] that with a grain of salt as well.

[587] But I just think the data is strong.

[588] I really think the data is I think it's mounting data and I think that eventually something will come out and it's going to just like the randomized controlled trials showing that it protects against respiratory tract infections.

[589] Of course, everyone wants randomized controlled trials.

[590] No one wants to believe anything until it's a randomized control trial.

[591] I'm just, I'm amazed that the numbers of people that are deficient.

[592] It's so stunning.

[593] And when you point out the number of people that are deficient that actually wind up having severe COVID -19 problems.

[594] Right.

[595] Yeah, I know it's stunning, like some of those numbers.

[596] It's like the missing link.

[597] It's like it's right there.

[598] I think that's a really good hypothesis.

[599] I do.

[600] I think it's a really good hypothesis.

[601] I want to believe it because it's easy.

[602] It's safe.

[603] And I think people need vitamin D anyways.

[604] I mean, you know, so of course I want to believe it, you know.

[605] But like, there was this interesting study where African Americans who are very deficient in vitamin D. they were given a vitamin D supplement for like a month, and it decreased their epigenetic age by like two years.

[606] I mean, yeah, so that's a marker.

[607] For a month?

[608] Something like a month, I think, yeah.

[609] In a month, they decrease their epigenetic age by two years.

[610] Okay, don't hold me to the month.

[611] Give me some month or two months, but I think it was a month.

[612] Most of these clinical studies.

[613] Even if it's three months, that's crazy.

[614] Most of these studies are about a month, yeah.

[615] So, yeah, by 1 .8 years.

[616] So what's indicative of they're suffering from this vitamin D. deficiency this alleviates that suffering and then it puts the body in homeostasis it's a hormone yeah it's a hormone it's changing 5 % of the human genome that's a lot that's a lot it's a lot yeah it's a crazy number when you think about it it is and people it's not it's not just a vitamin right yeah yeah hormone super vitamin can you imagine it's like what happens when you go into menopause well you're not making your estrogen i mean stuff goes wrong i mean it's a hormone like estrogen estrogen's a hormone you know testosterone's a hormone yeah it's a hormone it's a hormone it's a hormone you know it's it's it's important so you know so that's if you have the dr ronda patrick pyramid of supplementation for preventative symptoms of covid 19 or preventative measures dealing with covid 19 that's your base that's number one i take vitamin d i certainly don't know if it's going to prevent covid 19 but i'm not hoping it does yes i'm not saying it but i'm not even saying preventative i mean like keeping your body healthy totally i mean my mom i've got my mom i got my dad i got my whole family everyone's on the routine you know that vitamin d is like the most important so that's the foundation is vitamin d right now yeah i mean it's it i'm always trying to get them to have that but like it's easier to convince when people are scared people are more likely to make change when like you can't like if something they have to be motivated to make the change themselves or just otherwise it doesn't work, you know?

[617] So I think that in this case, people are motivated, especially people in my parents' generation that are older because they're more scared.

[618] They're more scared that they could be affected by a severe, you know, case of this, right?

[619] So I think that's certainly, you know, the issue.

[620] Yeah, I mentioned I'm drinking my vitamin C water.

[621] It's funny because I've probably got like a thousand questions about vitamin C in the past month to month and a half or whatever and I we kind of like my team and I just dove in and put together an article released a podcast on it a video where we just kind of covered everything I mean I can't believe how many studies I read on vitamin 190 references in our article the 28 page article on our website but vitamin C is interesting too I mean I don't I certainly, the interesting thing about vitamin C is, you know, there's oral and then there's intravenous vitamin C. And the intravenous vitamin C is what seems to be really relevant right now.

[622] But I think the most interesting thing that I learned really had to do with the pharmacokinetics, which is basically like how much vitamin C raises your plasma levels and, like, you know, is there a saturation point where you can eat, you know, 20 grams of vitamin C, but still only get to the certain point, you know, and then versus what you do if you, like, you know, inject it into your veins, right, intravenously.

[623] So what's interesting is that most people that are just like eating, let's say that people are just eating like five, somewhere between five to nine servings of vegetables or fruits a day.

[624] Those people have anywhere between like 70 to 80 micromole, micromoles of vitamin C per liter, so it's micromoles per liter in their blood.

[625] If you take like a 200 milligram supplement, you only raise your levels to like 90.

[626] So it's not much over that like baseline.

[627] Most people that aren't eating that many servings probably have around 50, which is still considered normal, 50 micromoles or micromolar.

[628] And then what's interesting is that like, but those levels you take, if you take 200, 200 milligrams, it doesn't do much.

[629] If you take a gram, it can raise you up to like 130 or something.

[630] If you take three grams, it can raise you to 220.

[631] And that's like the maximum level you can get from oral supplementation, 220 micromole.

[632] That's a big difference.

[633] 220 versus like 50.

[634] So three grams.

[635] Three grams.

[636] But here's the other interesting thing is that if you don't take it multiple times throughout the day, if you only take it once, you'll peak at around five hours after.

[637] I think there's like a really nice graph on my website on the topic page.

[638] It shows this like you'll peak like five hours after, but then you go down steadily and over 24 hours you're back to normal, your baseline.

[639] But if you take it like, you know, four times a day, you can stay at 220 like all the whole time.

[640] And the reason that's important is because a lot of studies looking at oral vitamin C consumption and like, for instance, the common cold, incidents of the common cold really depend.

[641] Like, there's huge variations in the results, and it all really seems to come down to dose.

[642] Like, it really does.

[643] And when you know the dose and how that's changing your blood levels, like if you're only taking 200 milligrams, which some studies are doing, it's barely doing anything over your baseline, you know?

[644] So I found that really interesting.

[645] And then the intravenous vitamin C, you can, you can, you can, you can, you can, I mean, so far, like the maximum I've seen measured is like 70 times that.

[646] Your blood can get 70 times 200 inches.

[647] Yeah.

[648] So it's like 18 ,000 or 17 ,000 or something like that.

[649] So IV is far more effective.

[650] Oh, it totally overcomes all those like saturatable mechanisms.

[651] And it's not only more effective, it's a completely different game.

[652] So can I pause?

[653] What dose do you recommend for intravenous vitamin C?

[654] Yeah, for intro.

[655] Jamie, can you pull up FalmyFitness .com and there's a vitamin C topic page so that way I can answer that question better?

[656] because there's a just pull there's a graph if you just like scroll to the graph there's like and all this is on your website we should tell everybody found my fitness dot com vitamin c or that's the episode page that's the podcast but scroll back up to the to the main home yeah so topics click on topics there we go vitamin c somewhere the bottom there we go okay there's a just look for the figure scroll you'll see it okay right there it goes is there any way you can make that yeah the bottom bottom one is the one I want to see that's the intravenous.

[657] Okay, so there we go.

[658] So this is intravenous dose.

[659] So you want to get at least 10 grams.

[660] So you can see 10 grams is like And 10 grams is 10 ,000 milligrams?

[661] Yeah.

[662] Ten grams is 10 ,000 milligrams.

[663] So that's about 10 grams.

[664] That's what I've done in the past.

[665] But what's interesting is when you get above.

[666] Got us with a pop up.

[667] Newsletter.

[668] My newsletter is great.

[669] I mean, I do lots of announcements there.

[670] I give commentary, you know, stuff I'm scared to, like, publish on the website because I don't want to hear all the crap.

[671] Anyways.

[672] Like, what are you scared of?

[673] Oh, no. I'm just like, you know, there's, I'm not scared.

[674] I guess that's the wrong word.

[675] I just don't want to deal with it.

[676] Right.

[677] That's the thing.

[678] I just don't want to deal with it.

[679] The intravenous vitamin C is a completely different game because it literally generates hydrogen peroxide.

[680] Like, when you get like doses above, you know, you start to max out over that, you know, plasma level, 220 micromole, the vitamin C itself, so vitamin C kind of cycles between being oxidized and reduced.

[681] It's called dehydroescorbic acid, dehydroscorbate, and then escorbic acid or escorbate.

[682] Dehydroiscorbic acid is the oxidized form and hydrogen peroxides generated, which is really interesting because it's one of the mechanisms by which, at least it's thought, that intravenous vitamin C kills cancer cells.

[683] It also has been shown to like kill viruses and stuff in a variety of different studies.

[684] But that's interesting because your neutrophils, your neutrophils generate hydrogen peroxide.

[685] So the intravenous vitamin C is like generating hydrogen peroxide.

[686] At the same time, it's also acting as an antioxidant for, for your own neutrophils, and that's been shown.

[687] So people, you know, in clinical studies, but also it's been shown that the hydrogen peroxide does not damage the normal cells.

[688] Like, normal healthy people given intravenous vitamin C it's generating hydrogen peroxide but there's no oxidative damage happening in people's like lymphocytes and stuff so it's not like damaging your own cells and how often would you do this if you could have well and study the studies you know it depends on on what virus you're looking at like you know but i mean for you personally for just for health benefits how often would you take if you just had access to it every day how often would you take intravenous vitamin C you know it's something because if you if you look for the graph, it's kind of a trans, intravenous vitamin C is transient.

[689] So it's like, it's having, it's not something that, like, necessarily needs to be done all the time.

[690] It's something, like, I was, I was interested in doing it.

[691] Like, my mom was, my mom had just gotten sick and, like, calm and cold, you know, she had, like, her runny nose and stuff.

[692] And so I took her, we went to get the, the IBC, and they did, it was 10, 10 grams that we did.

[693] And I took it because I was like, well, she's sick and I've been around her and, like, I don't want to get sick.

[694] So, you know, I thought, why not try it?

[695] And, you know, so, you know, the intravenous vitamin C, maybe there's, like, a reason to do it.

[696] But it's not something that I'm certain that people need to do on a daily basis.

[697] It's different than, like, vitamin C, you know, normal vitamin C you do need.

[698] You need to get it from your diet.

[699] It's important.

[700] Like, it's important for normal immune cells, normal immune function.

[701] And that's been shown.

[702] But I don't.

[703] I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[704] But do you believe it's important to take it orally as well as IV?

[705] Well, the IVs is, it's totally, the IV is totally different.

[706] The IV is really being used as a therapeutic treatment.

[707] Like it's, it's a therapeutic treatment more, you know, the IBC where it's been shown to help with like, for example, it's, at least in the hospitals in San Diego, it's routinely used for sepsis, like friends of mine, you know, use that, use that for treating sepsis.

[708] And there's been large, randomized controlled trial showing that it dramatically reduces mortality with sepsis.

[709] So, like, that's, especially in combination with thiamen as well, like huge differences in mortality people dying from sepsis, which is obviously very relevant now, but it hasn't been shown.

[710] I mean, there are clinical studies that are ongoing right now, some in China and some of the United States looking at IVC, potentially to help treat COVID -19 associated pneumonia.

[711] You know, it'll be interesting to see the data from those trials, whether or not there's going to be in effect it's not known but um the fact that it has been shown to to treat to improve sepsis outcomes in in multiple you know studies it's also been shown obviously cancer is like a big one like that was like you know Linus Pauling was like deemed a nut like you know the Nobel prize winning chemist who basically is the vitamin C guy like he back in the 70s was like championing intravenous vitamin C for for cancer patients because he was claiming it was like you know curing them quote unquote curing them.

[712] I wasn't quite doing that, but it was like improving the outcomes of cancer patients.

[713] And there's all these studies from the Mayo Clinic came out and they were like, nope, doesn't do that.

[714] Turns out they were using oral vitamin C, which is like comparing apples to oranges.

[715] But now there's been so many studies a lot.

[716] How's the Mayo Clinic fucked that up?

[717] I don't know.

[718] They did.

[719] That's so crazy.

[720] They did.

[721] Yeah.

[722] Yeah, they were doing.

[723] But that's who you would depend upon when you wanted to know, well, is this accurate?

[724] I mean, this was decades ago.

[725] I don't know, maybe they've, like, they've definitely, like, gotten more on games since then.

[726] They just didn't understand the difference.

[727] Yeah, who knows back then?

[728] You know, the pharmacokinetic studies that I'm referring to, I mean, those aren't, those are recent.

[729] Mark Levine at the NIH, he's real, like, he gets credit.

[730] Like, he is really, really involved in putting that out there.

[731] Like, the difference between intravenous vitamin C and oral are apples and oranges, completely different.

[732] Like, and so until that was known, I guess maybe.

[733] the Mayo Clinic, they just thought, oh, vitamin C is vitamin C. You just can take it orally until like some of that data started coming out, the pharmacokinetic data, where it was like, no, it's not the same thing.

[734] Like, you're talking about 70 times higher vitamin C levels in the plasma.

[735] Like, you could never do that from oral.

[736] Like, it's not the same at all.

[737] Before that was known, I guess maybe that's why.

[738] I've even heard people dismiss vitamin C saying that your body only absorbs a certain amount.

[739] It's wasted if you take more than that.

[740] Well, you do.

[741] So here's the thing.

[742] So maximum bioavailability does occur at 200 milligrams.

[743] And once you go above that, like if you take 500 milligrams of vitamin C orally, you start to excrete a lot in urine.

[744] But that doesn't, if you look at the plasma levels, you're still increasing them much higher.

[745] You're excreting more, too, but you're increasing your plasma levels more.

[746] So you take 200 milligrams, you get your plasma levels of vitamin C up to 90.

[747] You take 500, you may get it a little bit more.

[748] You take three grams, you get it to 220.

[749] Yeah, you're going to be peeing a lot out, but you got to 220, right?

[750] And so if you look at these common cold studies, there's like randomized meta analysis, randomized control trials and analysis of them.

[751] They've shown that, like, you know, two grams is better than one gram for, like, reducing the duration of the common cold.

[752] Two grams is better than one.

[753] And children are more, have a more robust effect than adults.

[754] So, like, adults, like, it reduces the common cold.

[755] Like, two grams can do something like, reduce a duration by, like, 20%.

[756] percent or something and children are like emergency that company got a lot of shit for their claims but two grams i said two grams yeah emergency doesn't have nothing so so then you keep 200 milligrams or something there you go so you keep looking down there's more meta analysis another meta analysis that looked at um 200 milligrams up to like 200 milligrams up to two grams and that study kind of just lumped everything together rather than the other study like okay what happens is two grams and one and they did all these sub analysis and that was great because they like got to the bottom of it, dose matters.

[757] The other study, it was like, oh, it reduces the duration by like 4%, you know, basically nothing.

[758] So, so there's like all this, there was all these conclusions.

[759] It doesn't do anything.

[760] Well, yeah, 200 milligrams.

[761] Look at that graph.

[762] It does, it doesn't do shit to your plasma levels.

[763] Like, you're still at baseline.

[764] So I think that people designing clinical studies, like they need, like that needs to be in their mind before they design their trial.

[765] Okay.

[766] What am I trying to measure here?

[767] Like, I want to get, I need to.

[768] I need to.

[769] like I need a measurable, like I need something to measure.

[770] I need that to change, right, to get an outcome.

[771] Like if you want, you're trying to like see what effect vitamin C has on whatever outcome, you're going to want to raise someone's plasma levels, right?

[772] So I guess it's good at the end of the day to know that 200 milligrams doesn't do anything because then you go, okay, well, 200 milligrams doesn't do anything.

[773] But it's also good to know that, oh, wait, if I take a higher dose, there is an effect.

[774] So, you know, making this general statement that, oh, vitamin C supplementation doesn't do anything, is not necessary.

[775] It's accurate in some respects.

[776] Yeah, 200 milligrams.

[777] It doesn't do much for the common cold.

[778] But when you take two grams, it can help.

[779] And also other studies have shown that prophylactically is slightly better than like therapeutic.

[780] So like after the onset of symptoms.

[781] So if you do it like before symptoms, like there's a better, you know, outcome as well.

[782] So I mean, that's all kinds of interesting.

[783] So for you personally, if you had the option, would you do it once a week, IV?

[784] it's pretty interesting yeah I've like I was doing it I was actually doing it once a week before shelter in place enough once a week is enough totally I bet I don't even know if it's necessary honestly to be honest because again it's a therapeutic you know treatment I will say this like my one of my friends she's a she's an MD and she has reactive airways there's interesting studies that have shown you know like that the intravenous vitamin C is like dramatically reducing inflammation as well it's doing all kinds of crazy things but her cough, and it was very transient, it only happened like while the IV, while the vitamin C was high in her plasma.

[785] She's got this crazy cut.

[786] I mean, you'd think she'd had COVID because she's like, it's just like a constant nagging cough, you know, that it completely 100 % went away.

[787] I noticed it and she, like my friend is a little bit, you know, she's a little bit of a skeptic when it comes to like vitamins or anything like that, you know, so I wasn't going to say anything think it's her and I have gone in so many debates about it.

[788] So, um, but she said something.

[789] And I was just like, you know, I'm so glad.

[790] And so she, now she's wanting to do it like, she's wanting to do it like, you know, once a month at least.

[791] So I thought that was, you know, interesting.

[792] Again, I don't know that the intravenous vitamin C is necessary.

[793] There's also interesting effects on like fat oxidation, like it affects fat oxidation because it's important for carnitine, which is necessary for oxidizing fat like there's been clinical studies where people are like burning more fat when they're exercising if they have vitamin C and if they have low vitamin C levels or not like burning as much fat and I think it's because it's the carnitine I thought that was really interesting I didn't know anything about that so we've been doing intravenous vitamin C and glutathione and a bunch of other stuff zinc once a week that's what we've been doing yeah zinc's another one that's really you know important for immune function as well and elderly people are more zinc deficiency is not really common in the u .s most you know zinc is found in in it's really high in oysters but not a lot of people oysters red meat poultry you know if you if you eat enough of that you should be getting enough thing what about vegetarians do um they they are more prone to a zinc deficiency and in fact um because the zinc is bound to phytate it's less bioavailable and they need to like eat like up to three times more the rda needs to be like almost three times as high for them.

[794] Or they can just supplement, which I know a lot of vegetarians do.

[795] But yeah, but zinc is really important for immune function.

[796] Like there's been studies where they've like depleted healthy people of their zinc just transiently.

[797] And like T cell function like is all messed up.

[798] So it like totally messes the immune system up.

[799] Randomized control trial is showing that zinc acetate or zinc gluconate like lozenges, they can dramatically lower the duration of common cold.

[800] Is acetate or glucanate, which one's superior?

[801] So there was, it's, like, it was trending that acetate was better.

[802] Trending, meaning it was non -significant, although it was like 40 % versus 28%.

[803] I don't, like, to me, lowering the duration of the common cold by 40 % versus lowering it by 28 %, I guess it was non -significant for whatever reason.

[804] So the study concluded that they're both the same, but it seems as though acetate may be slightly better, maybe slightly better.

[805] but you know I am taking zinc is also a positive ion so you need a zinc ionophore to help it get in to cells so like flavanoids like quercetin quercetin is found in like apples onions buckwheat teas which is what I drink but you can supplement with it which I also supplement with it as well Quercetin is interesting because it's a zinc ionophore it's also been identified to have activity against Sarscove 1 anti -viral activity against SARS -Cope 1.

[806] Doesn't it have neutropic properties as well?

[807] I don't know.

[808] Am I wrong about that?

[809] It has, I don't know.

[810] It might be confusing it with something else.

[811] It's got scinalytic properties, which means it's been shown, it's been identified as a possible compound that can clear out senescent cells, which are those cells that are, you know, they accumulate with age and they're basically like, they're not dead, but they're just like, not really functioning, and they're secreting, they're secreting cytokines and things that age nearby cells.

[812] I always like to think of, like, I was mentioning to Jamie that I'm maybe 42 next month, and so, yeah, I have some gray hairs.

[813] Hey, gray hairs.

[814] And it's funny how, like, you'll get one gray hair, and the other gray hairs, like, cluster around that one.

[815] Like, they're clustering.

[816] And I always think of, like, because cellular senescence happens in the melanocytes that, you know, are responsible for pignant.

[817] So I always think about, oh, the senescent melanocyte is, like, you know, the senescent melanocyte is, like secreting all this pro -inflammatory stuff that's now accelerating the age of my other nearby hair follicle melanocytes and it's causing them to anyways quercetin's been identified to clear away senescent cells so that's kind of cool for aging for gray hairs and all just for aging in general no that's just my like an analogy for people to understand why senescent cells are bad because they like age other nearby cells by secreting all this stuff pro -inflammatory One thing I forgot to ask you about vitamin D deficiency is red light therapy.

[818] What would that have to do with vitamin D?

[819] I don't know.

[820] Do you know about these red light machines that people stand in front of?

[821] Yeah, the photo biomodulation.

[822] Yeah.

[823] Does that have any effect on vitamin D?

[824] That's not UVB.

[825] Okay, it's different.

[826] Yeah, yeah.

[827] And, you know, I think that that itself, it's an interesting field.

[828] I would say that it's, the marketing has got a little head of a science for that, but I do think that there's, there's promise, particularly for some treatments, you know, there are, there are some claims out there that are sort of being backed up by very poorly done studies, but I think, I think there's some promise out there for it.

[829] It makes you feel good.

[830] Does it?

[831] Yeah, it's interesting.

[832] I've been doing it.

[833] I try, I wanted to do it before I even talk.

[834] talked about it for a month solid and I do it basically four or five days a week and I just I don't know it's hard to tell because I do so much shit do you sauna yes because that makes you feel good every day every day I'm doing five days a week and I'm doing seven days a week 180 degrees for 25 minutes dude I do 180 degrees for 25 minutes dude that's funny yeah unless it's if it's 190 or 188 then I'll do 20 but yeah I do 25 at 180 80 as well.

[835] That seems to me the sweet spot, you know, and I've been doing it every single day of the quarantine because I have a son in my house.

[836] Do you have a son in your house?

[837] We do.

[838] Well, it's in our office, which is like home off.

[839] It's like, well, it's not in our home, but it's yeah, it's just next door pretty much.

[840] So we got that literally, you're not going to believe it's like three hours before shelter in place was put into California.

[841] I mean, I couldn't believe it.

[842] Well, we had ours done just a few months before.

[843] I mean, it was just, I was thinking, like, God, if we didn't have this in the house and you couldn't go anywhere.

[844] Luckily, we have one here so I could use the one that's here.

[845] But it's a godsend.

[846] Oh, man. It changes everything.

[847] It's a game changer.

[848] It's a game changer.

[849] And I've been doing, so I haven't had a warm shower since the shelter in place.

[850] Since I got my sauna.

[851] I do, I do, it's amazing.

[852] Like, I do, I don't want to make people feel bad.

[853] Look, I went a long time without a sauna.

[854] I know what it's like.

[855] I was doing hot baths and we can talk about that.

[856] Yeah, it is.

[857] But there is something about the sauna and then the cold bath, the cold shower, sorry, the cold shower that is just, it is a game.

[858] Like, I am so much more relaxed.

[859] And this is like, I think I've told you the story.

[860] The whole reason I got interested in the sauna was because I was in graduate school doing it like every day.

[861] And I was like, this is amazing.

[862] I am so much less stressed.

[863] I am like calmer.

[864] I'm more relaxed.

[865] I'm happier.

[866] Something's happening.

[867] So I was like into the not even all the muscle and all.

[868] all the cardiovascular, I mean, it mimics cardiovascular exercise.

[869] It really has a big difference in my cardiovascular activity.

[870] It's been shown to.

[871] In people, there's a study.

[872] This was, I think, Gary Laucanin, who is a friend of mine, just he's like the best, the leader in sauna research in Finland.

[873] He published a study where they looked at cardiorespiratory fitness and I think other cardiovascular disease risk markers in people that were physically fit or physically, sorry, physically active.

[874] and plus the sauna or, you know, just physically act.

[875] So physical or just sauna alone.

[876] So physical activity was like the king.

[877] So like if you compare physical activity alone to sauna alone, physical activities the best at improving cardiovascular health.

[878] sauna is also good.

[879] Sana and physical activity together were better than the physical activity alone, which I was like, yes, that's what you want.

[880] I don't remember.

[881] I don't remember.

[882] I was like, you're asking me like six months ago or more.

[883] So, but that's what you want, right?

[884] Like you want like, you're like, I'm already physically active.

[885] I mean, you're like more physically active than me. And so, but that's what you want is like the combination.

[886] It makes a big difference.

[887] Once I started doing it during the lockdown, one of the things I notice, the runs that I do, the last hill is fucking brutal.

[888] And I always finish on this last hill.

[889] But now I've been able to run that last hill, the last hill.

[890] It's like a mark a difference.

[891] When I hit the hill, I'm like, wow, this is crazy.

[892] Either I'm getting in better shape, and I know I am for sure.

[893] But it's also, I got to think the sauna has a big impact because it feels like I'm on a drug.

[894] It feels like I'm on, I don't know what EPOs feels like, but I would imagine it would feel something like this with the increased cardiovascular benefit is very noticeable.

[895] Totally, totally.

[896] I mean, there's been some small studies looking at, you're talking about performance enhancements.

[897] There's been some small studies showing that, particularly with endurance, that there is a performance enhancement, I think it was cycler.

[898] Maybe it was running, running and cycling.

[899] Have you ever measured your heart rate during it?

[900] So, yes.

[901] So here's the thing with that.

[902] Like, at first I was, like, terrified to do that because I didn't want to ruin my Apple Watch, you know?

[903] I've, like, ruined some of things there.

[904] And, like, Kevin Rose was like, no, just put your hand on.

[905] I do it all the time.

[906] And, like, he's a tech guy.

[907] So I'm like, all right.

[908] Kevin Rose tells me I can take my Apple Watch and the hot freaking son.

[909] I'm going to do it, right?

[910] So, you know, my heart rate, it can get up to, like, 120.

[911] But the thing is, is that there is adaptation that happens.

[912] so you're basically like you're you're becoming adapted and so your heart rate doesn't increase as much like over time right and I'll be I'll be honest I stopped wearing my watch in there so I'm not measuring my heart rate anymore like to get a whoop strap because the whoop strap has no problem at all yeah the whoop yeah P I'll get you one I'll have one sent to you all right because they're one of the sponsors of the podcast but I love it I would love to have something to measure it without because having to take my watch in there because I don't like sitting like it's like you know well the whoop strap measures it really well and it'll give you like you could actually mark it down as an activity and it'll show you where your heart rate it's a it's a mountain of data it's really good that's cool yeah let me also great for sleep it shows you like really accurate sleep it actually has a sleep coach built in so it shows you like how much sleep you got how much recovery yeah where your recovery's at and what you need it'll even tell you you know hey you should go to bed since you've been getting up at six o 'clock in the morning, you should go to bed by 10 tonight.

[913] Nice.

[914] Had you noticed an effect?

[915] So I've been doing the sauna every day.

[916] Sorry, five days a week because I would do it every day, but I got to have, you know, more time with my son.

[917] But have you noticed an effect on your sleep at all?

[918] I feel relaxed.

[919] Do you?

[920] Yeah.

[921] Do you feel like you need more sleep, though?

[922] Like, you know, like when you're working out hard, like you sometimes require like more, more sleep?

[923] Yeah.

[924] Yeah.

[925] Well, when I do squats for sure.

[926] anytime we do lunges and squats and heavy leg days i'm a zombie for two days and like if i have a particularly intellectually challenging podcast i'll skip leg days because i know i'm just going to be too stupid i've done it before where i come in and i'm like i can't form sentences it's not if you see what i'm doing there was this weird there was a study that linked um there was a link between like leg strength and cognitive function it's very strong like the more leg strength you had like the improve it was like some kind of crazy number two it makes sense yeah it just makes sense that if you have more leg strength that means you're doing more activity that means you get more blood flow that means everything's probably functioning better because it's such an enormous part of your body when you look at your musculature the large percentage of it is from the waist down and when I do when I'm doing legwork like if I'm doing most of what I'm doing is kettlebells but I'm doing lunges and presses and squats and all these different things with heavy kettlebells So it's like, it's a lot of weight that your muscles are pushing.

[927] Dan is always trying to get me to do squats.

[928] Like, I don't know what, back when I was in grad school, I was doing squats and I was using the stuff.

[929] And then I was doing, I guess, what are they called?

[930] Like, leg presses, yeah.

[931] And I, like, injured myself and in this, I want to call it Skyatica.

[932] What's the other one that's like Skyatica?

[933] Syatica is a nerve that comes from your discs being pushed.

[934] Like right here?

[935] Yes.

[936] Well, you know what that's from, though.

[937] I don't know what I, I don't know what it is, and I'm calling it's sciatica.

[938] Well, sciatica most of the time, what you're getting is your lower back, you're having, your discs are protruding.

[939] And your disc, like if you have a herniation of the disc, or if you have a bulging disc, it's pushing against your nerve.

[940] And that's sending that pain down, usually your butt and into your back, your leg, and along those lines, right?

[941] Is that where you were getting the pain lower back?

[942] It's only, it doesn't go into my leg.

[943] It's just like this, like, right above my butt.

[944] Right above your butt, yeah.

[945] Yeah.

[946] Yeah, that's it.

[947] That's a lot of times you think it's that area, but it's not.

[948] It's your back, and it's your back with a disc pushing into the nerves.

[949] Have you had an MRI?

[950] No. You should have an MRI.

[951] Okay.

[952] Because I'm here to do squat, like squats or like every time I do that, I get a flare up, and it's like, I'm out.

[953] Well, there's other things you can do to strengthen that area.

[954] Like what?

[955] First of all, there's a machine called a reverse hyper.

[956] It's fantastic.

[957] Reverse hyper.

[958] I have one outside.

[959] I'll show it to you.

[960] But it was created by this guy Louis Simmons from Westside Barbell.

[961] He's a genius.

[962] He's given us, he gave us this new platform, too.

[963] That's amazing, too.

[964] What does that thing called, Jamie?

[965] Belt squat.

[966] Belt squat.

[967] I love this thing because you wear a belt and the weight is actually pulling.

[968] The weight is behind you.

[969] I'll show it how it works before.

[970] But you're on this platform, and all of the weight is on this belt, instead of on your shoulders.

[971] So you can have like 250 pounds or whatever it is, but it's all being carried.

[972] See, that's the thing right there.

[973] I'm not the machine, but that's similar to what we have.

[974] But the machine that we have is a little bit more complicated.

[975] But the point is this guy comes up.

[976] Are there any pictures of females doing this?

[977] Only gorillas, these big giant dudes.

[978] But the reverse hyper, the reason why it's so special is, forget about this for a second.

[979] Yeah, there's a girl.

[980] There's a girl using that.

[981] That is a more primitive version of the one that we have out there.

[982] The new one that West Side Barbell sent us, it's just a cable that comes through the floor and the weights are actually behind you.

[983] And you're carrying all the weight on your hip, so it strengthens the legs without putting a load on the back, which is fantastic.

[984] Wow.

[985] I like that for that.

[986] So you can get all the leg work that you get from squats, but you don't get the pressure on the discs.

[987] And then the reverse hyper is a machine that he actually invented.

[988] Louis Simmons invented it because he had a herniated disc, and the doctors are telling them, hey, we have to operate on you because you have this compressed disc.

[989] And so he's a very smart guy, and he knows so much about physical fitness and weight training.

[990] That's Louis right there.

[991] He came up with this machine.

[992] So he said, well, listen, if something compressed it, something can decompress it.

[993] So he came up with this machine.

[994] And with this machine, the reverse hyper does on the lift, it's strengthening the lower back muscles.

[995] But then as you drop it down, it swings low and it actively decompresses all of your disc.

[996] Wow.

[997] I'd be so scared that's going to aggravate it, you know?

[998] No, no, no, no, no. Trust me. First of all, you could do it with no weight.

[999] Okay.

[1000] You could do it at first with no weight.

[1001] And that's how a lot of people...

[1002] When I introduce people to it, I have them do no weight.

[1003] But for me, it's been a giant game changer.

[1004] So I do that, and then there's another thing by Teeter.

[1005] Teeter makes this decompression dex.

[1006] It's called the D -E -X -X.

[1007] And from that, you hang from the waist.

[1008] You, like, strap your...

[1009] I have that outside as well.

[1010] You strap your...

[1011] ankles into it and you hang from the waist and it just all your that's it right there so with that that lady right there in that image she's holding onto those handles and that's how you kind of get yourself down but once you get yourself down you just relax and all of your weight see how that guy's doing it there all your weight is decompressing the spine so it stretches the spine out and decompresses it and it gives you a lot of relief so between those two particular pieces of equipment, the reverse hyper, and this Dex 2, which I fucking love that thing.

[1012] D -E -X?

[1013] Yeah, D -E -X, too.

[1014] So when I get my home gym, I'm going to have to get all this stuff.

[1015] Yeah, that's made by Teter.

[1016] Teeter has two things that are really cool.

[1017] It has those inversion tables, which are great for, you know, the same thing.

[1018] You're hanging by your ankles, and it's decompressing your spine.

[1019] But I actually prefer this product from them because this completely isolates the back.

[1020] And you're not pulling on your knees and your ankles when you're decompressing.

[1021] It's all just decompressing the back.

[1022] And also you can do leg extensions and a bunch of other things.

[1023] You see people doing dips and other exercises from the teeter.

[1024] But it's a great machine.

[1025] And it's just really specifically good for back health, lower back health, decompressing it, and even strengthening it because you can do those back extensions.

[1026] So you hook yourself into it and then you just lift your back up and down.

[1027] Everything that I'm scared to do.

[1028] But it shouldn't be, you shouldn't be scared to do it because that's what's going to protect that area.

[1029] What's going to protect that area is muscle and strength and also flexibility.

[1030] If this works, that would be just incredible.

[1031] I guarantee you it's going to work.

[1032] Because I'm so like, the whole time I had a gym membership or it's been like on pause, but the whole reason I had one because it's on it.

[1033] Like I'm scared to do, like, I do free weights.

[1034] I have free weights and I'll do that.

[1035] But like, I'm just scared of machines, all that.

[1036] We need to get you a trainer.

[1037] That's what I need.

[1038] That's what you need.

[1039] Because so many people fuck themselves up by trying to do.

[1040] things on their own and I did and now I'm scared it's like this like and now I'm I'm guarantee you it's just poor form and all kinds of other stuff I need to do more I'm a big like I go for my my thing is like my jam is like endurance I love going for runs like you know and I it's like huge like it's so great for the mind right that's the reason I do it like absolutely with this shelter in place thing because I like to do outdoor runs and I don't have a treadmill or anything like that I mean it was like I finally got a jump rope and it came in right when the beach has opened up, but because I can, I'm good at jumping rope and I should have been doing that, but I was sonathing every day and doing, you know, I was doing some, like, I do some, like, ballet stuff, you know, but like, I need to do resistance training.

[1041] Like, muscle mass is important, like, for aging, for, you know, bone density.

[1042] It's also, bone density, right.

[1043] Lifting weights increases bone density, tendon strength, so many different variables that are so huge because as your body gets older, those are the things that go south.

[1044] Yes, and I, you know, look, I'm going to be 42 next month.

[1045] So, like, I'm 52, so that just make you feel better.

[1046] Yeah, you, I mean, you're definitely like, you're fit, you know, so I need to keep that.

[1047] You can't ever let it go.

[1048] No. And I definitely, like, my diet, you know, that's dialed in.

[1049] And I definitely, like, do the running and the sauna.

[1050] But, but I need to be better about resistance training for sure.

[1051] I used to do yoga a lot, but, you know, I became a mom.

[1052] It's like, I mean, like, I used to work out, like, you know, twice a day.

[1053] twice a day I would do my yoga or my ballet and then I would run and now it's like you know did you realize how much work being a mom was before you did it oh no I had no idea I mean it's amazing so ignorant do it's I have no idea it is I mean it's tons of work I mean it's insane sometimes I like it's like three o 'clock in the afternoon I'm like I never brushed my teeth You know, like I haven't showered in a couple of, you know, the sauna thing, like I have to shower now.

[1054] But like before I was doing the sauna every single day, yeah, showers.

[1055] I mean, it's like nap time.

[1056] It's like, well, I can get work done or I can take a shower.

[1057] What should I do?

[1058] I got a lot of work to do.

[1059] It's hard.

[1060] It's hard.

[1061] So thankfully I have help for my mom.

[1062] My mom is like, you know, she's nana.

[1063] So she helps out a lot.

[1064] So I can actually get work done.

[1065] It's hard, you know, being a mom that's, you know, I have, you know, I run a business and, but I also like want to be a really good mother.

[1066] So it's like, yeah, I get it.

[1067] It's hard.

[1068] The balance is very difficult.

[1069] It does help if you have some equipment in your house, you know, that certainly helps.

[1070] Yes.

[1071] And that's like, we've been like leaning towards that and it's, it's, you know, we're slowly getting to the to the point where we're going to have more and more where it's just like you have to have easy access.

[1072] It has to be something you can just, you know, do real quick.

[1073] And you need to find a trainer.

[1074] Just find someone that can, I mean, you can learn a lot online, but you have access to resources.

[1075] You really need to find someone who's willing to come.

[1076] And you live in a, you live in San Diego.

[1077] It's an awesome place for fitness.

[1078] I mean, there's so many people down in San Diego that you could find.

[1079] Right.

[1080] Find someone.

[1081] Find some gal who's fucking jacked who knows how to lift weights, you know?

[1082] And then I'll, like, inform them all about the sauna and tell them all benefits to Yes, yes.

[1083] Yeah, for sure they can get a lot of that.

[1084] I mean, but I'm sure there's someone listening to this right now.

[1085] It's probably going to message you and say, I'll do it.

[1086] Right.

[1087] I'm your Huckleberry.

[1088] Hey, I wanted to tell you this about the, the, um, I've been nice.

[1089] It's been like, um, uh, just having, having the effect, I think the first time I came on your podcast, like, I don't know how many years it's been.

[1090] It's been a while, but I talked about the sauna.

[1091] It's been, yeah, it was like what you were in 2020 now.

[1092] Yeah.

[1093] more than that.

[1094] The first time you came on?

[1095] I think so.

[1096] 2014, maybe?

[1097] Yeah, because I was still a postdoc.

[1098] So, yeah, 2015, I stopped.

[1099] I cut that out.

[1100] Like, I finished my postdoc.

[1101] So I published a couple studies.

[1102] So I think it was 2014.

[1103] But, like, the sauna, you know, it's just been like something, I came on your podcast the first time when we talked about it.

[1104] And then, of course, continue to, you know, publish videos and articles and stuff.

[1105] And I'm writing a review article for peer review publication.

[1106] right now.

[1107] But there's a woman who reached out to me. She was, she had done her, I think her PhD, either her PhD, I don't know, psychology, but she had done it with a guy I interviewed in the podcast, Dr. Charles Rezaun, who is, he's the guy who showed that like a single hyperthermic treatment, which was with a device that raised the core body temperature, like almost three degrees, could have an antidepressant effect.

[1108] Well, she reached out to me and like the FDA shut that whole machine down.

[1109] Like, no. you can't use that for research anymore, which kind of shut down the whole sauna depression, you know, research area.

[1110] So she basically, she has gotten some funding and she's doing a pilot study with a new device, which is something you can like buy off Amazon where it's like a sauna, like your head's out, but like it's like a tent.

[1111] Yeah, my wife had one of those before we had a sauna.

[1112] Yeah.

[1113] So it's a little, it's different, but it's something that, you know, she's got to prove that it's safe before like the FDA will allow her to even like continue.

[1114] on to like measure like to study how it affects depression and so um i've been able to um you know help help with uh connections i've had help fund new study she's going to be doing where she's going to get depressed patients um to basically be exposed to this sauna and it's like an intense like she's like this intense protocol where like she's like it's like an hour long and they get really hot and people are giving them wet towels because like it's like it's a like imagine being It's like 140 degrees Fahrenheit, so it's an infrared, but they're in there for like an hour, you know, and they're getting, they raise their core body temperature.

[1115] They're measuring that rectally.

[1116] So, but she's going to measure the effects on, you know, on depressed patients.

[1117] So it's really exciting because, and they're going to do like a dose response where they're going to see how many.

[1118] The Charles Rezon, Dr. Charles Rezaun showed one, just one single session could result in an antidepressant effect six weeks later.

[1119] She's going to try to do eight sessions, like where she's going to see if these.

[1120] people can handle.

[1121] Over the course of how much time?

[1122] I think it's going to be once a week.

[1123] Once a week for eight weeks.

[1124] Yes.

[1125] And when you say, what is the methodology?

[1126] Like, what are they using?

[1127] So, okay, what are they using?

[1128] They're using that sauna that I was telling you about.

[1129] The same thing?

[1130] So they're using that, yeah, that's the sauna.

[1131] So she right now, her name is Dr. Ashley Mason.

[1132] What did they do before where they were saying they cut it, they wouldn't let them use a machine?

[1133] It was a device.

[1134] It was like this device that like basically is sort of like a far infrared thing, but it would, it would raise.

[1135] your core body temperature um through you know infrared right so what is the difference what difference when people ask me about infrared saunas so infrared yeah so infrared saunas um the main difference between infrared saunas and like the regular dry saunas that you and i use is that the the regular dry saunas are heating the ambient air right and that's then raising our core body temperature um through that mechanism the infrared sonnas are like they're like changing electrons they're like directly heating they're like directly heating your body basically without having to heat the outside air as much there have been some studies that have compared I mean there's benefits with these infrared sonnas that in Japan it's called weigh on therapy it's far infrared and they use it it's been used to like help even treat different cardiovascular diseases like it's been showed to improve like chronic heart failure or something like that I think So there's benefits with these, with the infrared.

[1136] Personally, there's, I think there's a lot, there's a lot stronger.

[1137] There's much more research on not only dry saunas, but in Finland, they take the sauna, dry sauna that has like these hot rocks and they pour water on top of the hot rock.

[1138] And so it creates humidity, right?

[1139] Steam.

[1140] And so that's really a common sauna.

[1141] Like I went to Finland a few years ago, visited Finland, some other sonnas there in Finland.

[1142] And so that's a very common thing.

[1143] I think they call it like, first of all, they call it sauna, sauna.

[1144] And they call it a weird way of talking.

[1145] Luel or something, will they make the steam?

[1146] Do you pour water on your rocks?

[1147] So our sauna is like, it's pretty small.

[1148] It's a two -person sauna.

[1149] And yes, so I can get the humidity, like, if I get it up to 50%, I feel like I'm like, I'm burning.

[1150] Where you're cooking.

[1151] Yeah.

[1152] So, yeah, if I'm in a rush.

[1153] And I'm like, I'm like, I just get this summer.

[1154] I got, you know, I got things to do.

[1155] I got to.

[1156] So I'll, like, pour the water on the hot rocks to, like, just get it really, feeling really hot.

[1157] But my personal favorite is, like, a nice 25 minute, 180, no, no water, just dry.

[1158] Like, I like that, but.

[1159] I'm so accustomed to 180 that I used one in Vegas.

[1160] And when I was there, it was 160.

[1161] I was like, this is ridiculous.

[1162] I could be here forever.

[1163] And so I just started pouring water on.

[1164] on the thing.

[1165] I got 10 bottles of water and I just pour in bottles of water because it was just me in there.

[1166] Right.

[1167] And I got that fucker hot in hell.

[1168] It was like, okay, now we're cooking and I was sweating up a storm.

[1169] It works.

[1170] I mean, like I said, ours is really small.

[1171] And so, like, I mean, you're breathing like it's like burning you.

[1172] There's a direct formula, too, between the percentage of humidity and then the increased temperature, the way it feels.

[1173] Like, if it's at 180, but you have 10 % humidity, it's.

[1174] It feels like, yeah, there is.

[1175] I don't know what that formula is.

[1176] Absolutely, there's a formula.

[1177] And in a lot of the studies in coming out of Finland, many of the people there are doing the humid saunas as well.

[1178] So, I mean, I guess they're called Finnish saunas, which means like they're using the hot water and steam.

[1179] It would be amazing to have a sauna, an outside sauna that's right next to a frozen lake, like the way they do it.

[1180] Oh, yeah.

[1181] They cut a hole in the lake and then get the party started.

[1182] So what we did, I visited the sauna Society.

[1183] And it was in November, so it was cold.

[1184] And it's right on a lake.

[1185] And so they have like, the day I went, it was not co -ed day.

[1186] So, you know, it's only women, sonnas that I went in.

[1187] It was like, it was like sectioned off.

[1188] But so you go and you do these different, they have all these different types.

[1189] And I don't remember.

[1190] And they're like whipping each other with like birch wood, you know, which it's interesting.

[1191] The Russians like to do that too.

[1192] They call it the Banya.

[1193] Right, the Russian Banya.

[1194] And they beat each other with these branches that are wet.

[1195] So, okay, let me tell you my story.

[1196] Anyways, they jump in the lake and then they go back and they're doing this.

[1197] Right.

[1198] So here's my, did I ever tell you my crazy story?

[1199] It's a funny story about Finland.

[1200] Which crazy story?

[1201] So I have a friend, he's a friend.

[1202] He's, you know, some of your friends are a little eccentric, right?

[1203] Well, this guy, he's got, he's got, you know, huge property in, like, the country in the woods, like, in Finland.

[1204] And this is, like, the first time I ever went camping, and it was, like, snow camping.

[1205] it was crazy it was like the worst thing ever like he had he had us do this like there was like two tents and and it was a conference that I gave a talk at and so there some people paid extra to like go to this event that that was after it so there was like 30 or so people there and they were from all around the world there was only like three Americans me Dan and some other guy no four Americans I think but anyways um it was my first time camping like outside like not in like I've been to Yosemite, but I like stay in a cabin, you know, I don't like sleep in a tent.

[1206] Right.

[1207] So it wasn't a great experience because, one, there was this guy who snored all night.

[1208] Two, because it was snow camping, we had to, like, there was some weird fire thing.

[1209] And he was in the military.

[1210] And so he had us do this thing where, like, everyone had to wake up at, I forgot what it was every hour.

[1211] Someone was, you had to pass this thing.

[1212] Oh, so you're in a big wall tent.

[1213] We were in a big, I don't know what it was called, but I didn't sleep the whole night and it was awful.

[1214] but here's my sauna experience so he doesn't believe in you can't wear like swimsuits or anything in the sauna so you have to be like you have to wear no clothes or if you if you really wanted you could wear a towel like if you were modest or whatever because to them it's like no big deal the sauna you just you don't wear any clothes I never buy that I think they're just freaks I know they told me they told me oh no the sauna is an asexual place and I'm like really get the fuck out of you're human being I know So only three people wore a towel, me, Dan, and this other American.

[1215] And so everyone was in there naked, lots of, like, there weren't that many females, but there were some from, I don't know, the UK or in some German, I don't know.

[1216] But they were all naked.

[1217] Like, it was like, I guess Europeans are like that, you know, like, they're more used to it.

[1218] That's what someone would tell me. I don't know what the case is.

[1219] But anyways, I had people coming up to me going, I love your podcast and this.

[1220] I'm like, I'm not going to get naked before, like at the conference and they were there.

[1221] And you think I'm going to be naked.

[1222] like in this sauna with someone who's like a podcast fan yes oh my god they're in your face so anyways I'm in the sauna everyone's naked and then and the guy who's my friend okay he's still my friend he's he's an interesting guy but he had like people come and started doing yoga so like and they're naked too people are totally naked they're doing downward dogs naked wonderful get out of here so that was like my my first finish sauna experience where it was like...

[1223] Some people are too open -minded.

[1224] They really are when it comes to things like that.

[1225] I was just happy.

[1226] He was like, you can wear a towel if you want.

[1227] Because he has this whole...

[1228] Why wouldn't do it?

[1229] I'd be like, get out of here.

[1230] You're not staring at my junk.

[1231] Yeah, so then I went...

[1232] They were all jumping in the lake after, and I'm like, I'm going to just sit on this patio.

[1233] It's freezing out here in Finland and November.

[1234] I'm not going to take my towel off and jump in the lake for every...

[1235] Why can't you wear a swimsuit?

[1236] Why?

[1237] Says who?

[1238] Like, what is the difference?

[1239] There's zero different.

[1240] and the benefits of it.

[1241] He claims, it's a cultural thing, and also he claimed that there's, like, toxins being released from the...

[1242] Oh, one of those assholes.

[1243] Fuck off, buddy.

[1244] I got a swimsuit on.

[1245] And then, okay, the yoga was bad.

[1246] It got worse.

[1247] Then he had some whipping technique with the birch wood, and he wanted, like, to demonstrate it.

[1248] So he had, like, one of the Britain girls, like, and she was just, like, it was just, like, it was too much.

[1249] Like, here's the truth.

[1250] Like, I was hot as fuck, right?

[1251] Like, I didn't care anymore.

[1252] Like, I cared about my towel, but I didn't care what was going on.

[1253] I was trying not to look at everyone, you know, like, I didn't want to see.

[1254] Like, you know, I'm married.

[1255] Like, I don't want to see everyone's stuff.

[1256] Well, people get sexual, too, because it's hot and sweaty.

[1257] And if this guy's like, it sounds like he's a little bit of a cult leader.

[1258] Right?

[1259] Like, everyone needs to be naked.

[1260] Oh, okay.

[1261] Someone was asking me that because he passed out, like, this flyer.

[1262] Because it's like, we were doing all these events, you know, all these events were happening.

[1263] And this flyer passed out.

[1264] And it was like, we were reading it.

[1265] And I was like, says you have to, you can't wear any clothes or a swimsuit or anything.

[1266] Because I had packed my swimsuit.

[1267] I was like, yeah, I'm going to wear my swimsuit in the sauna, you know.

[1268] You can't tell people they can't wear clothes.

[1269] This is his own home sauna, you know.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] How convenient.

[1272] But you could wear a towel.

[1273] Great.

[1274] Thanks, buddy.

[1275] All that toxins talk, too.

[1276] As soon as someone's talking about cleansing toxins, we're like, fuck off.

[1277] I was like so put off with the toxins and stuff.

[1278] Like, it's funny because the sauna.

[1279] like that's like the one like for years like all the benefits about sauna we're always about toxins right right they're always toxins toxins what are you talking about like show me what you're saying when you're talking about you're talking about just regular sweat but it does you do actually you do regular sweat doesn't have to be from sauna it could be from exercise but you do you do sweat out certain compounds like aluminum aluminum's like it's funny that you you can actually excrete certain compounds better from sweat than urine because that's another way of eliminating things is through urine but um aluminum cadmium and there's one other that i don't remember sweat it's like the best way to get to get rid of that it's just the conversations you have with people that are into releasing toxins it's like you're talking mumbo jumbo talk most of the time i try not i'm trying not to judge like i really do you should but i have a hard time you should when they start to go there i'm like you should have a hard time and you should judge i do but i try not do well it's just they say things that they don't really know what the fuck they're talking about and they say it with such authority.

[1280] And I've had those conversations in public saunas before too where people are like they start getting into the toxins and the whole sauna and like I'm just sitting there quiet and I'm just like, okay, let me start to tell you some benefits, like some real benefits, cardiovascular.

[1281] Did you know that it actually mimics exercise?

[1282] Like literally like that's been shown.

[1283] It's been like compared like 25 minutes in the sauna, 25 minutes on a stationary bike.

[1284] And same things are happening.

[1285] You know like blood pressure goes down afterwards heart rate variability improves you know so same things are happening you're increasing plasma volume heart rate increases core temperature increases right exercise is doing the same thing that's the antidepressant effect like that I feel from the sauna and that Charles Razon published you know and that Dr. Mason will hopefully carry on the torch I think it's real and I think that there's there's potentially multiple mechanisms immune you know modulations but also just the fact that like BDNF you know there's a study showing that hot baths do increase BDNF and BDNF brain drive neurotrophic factor which why would you think everybody would know what that means I know I just I thought everyone that listened to your podcast about everyone there's millions of people I don't even know what it means you do I do when you say it what's you said it I go okay yeah brain drive BDNF brain derive new Neurotropic factor.

[1286] What's so amazing about this neurotropic factor is that it's always thought about in the context of like brain aging because it helps you grow new neurons.

[1287] It's neurogenesis.

[1288] It helps already existing neurons survive.

[1289] But there's studies now showing that it regulates what's called neuroplasticity, which is like the ability like your brain, your brain changes, you know, with the changing environment.

[1290] But you have to be able to adapt to that, right?

[1291] like children are really good at that like they have a lot of neuroplasticity um but neuroplasticity is it's associated with depression like not like not being able like stressful conditions and stuff like that like not being able to like adapt i'm not using like the best of terms but neuroplasticity is something along those lines and so and bdnf plays a role in that and bdnf has been shown to be you know to increase with exercise and also with heat stress i'm glad you brought up hot baths because that's something that i wanted to cover before we got off track when we're talking about sauna when people that don't have access to a sauna how much benefit can they get out of a hot bath oh i'm glad you brought that up because there was a you know so a couple of things one um there was a study that showed hot baths can have an antidepressant effect and these people were put in a 104 degrees um Fahrenheit bath where they were up to their shoulders for like 20 to 30 minutes.

[1292] And the sham control was like a green light.

[1293] So people thought they were getting a treatment.

[1294] They were getting some kind of green light therapy or whatever.

[1295] You know, so it was a placebo control because placebo effect is definitely real, particularly with depression.

[1296] And it had a pretty powerful antidepressant effect, very similar to Charles Rezaun study with the hyperthermic chamber thing.

[1297] And when you say antidepressant, there's no real way to measure that.

[1298] They have this whole, yeah.

[1299] I mean, so there are some, there's potential biomarkers being identified, Cereactive protein being one, inflammation.

[1300] Inflammation plays a, there's like a huge link now between the immune system and chronic inflammation and depression, brain function in general, brain aging, but inflammation.

[1301] So, I mean, that's, there's a push for a looking, but not all depressed patients have it.

[1302] It's like there's a subset of Cereactive protein.

[1303] but yeah depression's measured it's a very much like a you know have someone so a subjective measurement would be a clinical a clinical person like measuring a whole battery of things they do i forgot the name of the test but yeah that's that's the test so it's like basically a battery of feeling things so it's not like a hardcore quantitative biomarker which is so badly is needed but um the hot baths have also been shown so heat chalk proteins which do you like amazing.

[1304] There's so many amazing things that heat shock proteins do.

[1305] They've been shown to prevent muscle atrophy.

[1306] And that's, you know, in the brain, they're so important, like preventing proteins from aggregating in the brain.

[1307] That's how I first got in, like, one of my first biological experiments ever, because I was a chemistry major in college.

[1308] So I was doing all chemistry stuff, organic chemistry and like chemistry.

[1309] But after I graduated, I went to work at the Salk Institute for Biological Sciences in La Jolla.

[1310] And I was working in an aging lab.

[1311] And And one of the first experiments that I was doing, like one of my first projects, was we were taking the human amyloid beta gene and injecting them in these worms, these nematode worms that only live like 14 or 15 days.

[1312] And we were making them form amyloid plaques in their muscle.

[1313] So, like, basically, you look at these little worms under a microscope, so it only like half a millimeter.

[1314] You know, they move around.

[1315] And as like they get older and they're aging, they don't move as quickly.

[1316] You know, they're kind of slower, a little more decrepit.

[1317] but anyways you give them this amyloid beta and after like a couple of days they become paralyzed where they're like laying in their little petri dish plate on the coli food you're giving them and they kind of just move around just to feed like their nose is just moving around and so when we would give them tons of heatchalk proteins in addition to the amyloid totally reversed it like completely like they would move around and be young so anyways heatchalk proteins play a role in like neurodogenic disease also some links to like improving depression in animal animal studies, but...

[1318] Can you measure heat shock proteins in the bath versus sauna?

[1319] Yeah, so that's been done.

[1320] So the sauna, I know of one study where people that sat in a 163 -degree Fahrenheit sauna for 30 minutes had heat shock proteins, their levels were 50 % higher over baseline, which is great.

[1321] And that usually, like, animal studies show that they can stay elevated for like 48 hours after that.

[1322] there's a hot bath study where they also elevated it wasn't quite as high but it was like you know 40 or so percent higher than baseline levels and it was 104 degrees but this study instead of doing it from the shoulders down where I told you about the depression it was like only 20 30 minutes it was like from the waist down so they had to stay in there for an hour it's like a jacuzzi you know where you're sitting there from the waist down and like that's hot like saying in 104 that's that's pretty hot but heat chalk proteins did increase so I think you know for for people that don't have access to a sauna that hot baths absolutely are a good a modality for heat stress and I used it for a long like I said I just got a sauna like I've been I've made a career about talking about saunas you know and I just got one like last month so like like I understand what it's like to not have a sauna and to have to use hot baths but I was also using the gym sonnas but right now it's like there's no gyms that are open so yeah it is a hot baths are like the the only really choice if you don't have a hot sauna, a home sauna.

[1323] What about cold shock proteins and the, I mean, how much difference is it between taking a really cold shower, ice bath versus something like cryo therapy?

[1324] Like the place that I took you to.

[1325] Yeah.

[1326] So, I mean, there's, there's differences in, I mean, so it depends on how long you're staying in a cold, you know, water, like cold shower, like actually being submerged, like from like, if you're like in the ocean or something or a lake and you're like from your shoulders down like that's probably much more powerful than just having the shower on but by the way the shower like some days I'm like what is the matter this this is not cold at all you know it's just so variable where you live in southern southern California you live on the right the border of Mexico but yesterday so so so every so most of time now I shower right after so on that's like my shower time now and so like it's I do about six minutes and it's so easy for me I've totally have adapted And I'm not sure if I've just totally adapted or if it's just like my faucets doesn't get that cold.

[1327] Like I really doesn't.

[1328] Today I took a cold shower from home and my son is not there.

[1329] And I did it just because I wanted to have the mood effects, the noraphynephrine that's been shown to be increased.

[1330] And it was much colder.

[1331] But then again, it was a different shower.

[1332] I'm not sure if it's because I didn't have the hot beforehand, like being hot and like getting in the cold shower, like it just feels really good.

[1333] It's a nice shock.

[1334] But the cold shock, you asked me a cold shock bro.

[1335] genes.

[1336] That hasn't really been measured in humans.

[1337] What is measured most of the time with cold shock is noropenephrine in plasma.

[1338] And there has been studies correlating noropenephrine in plasma upon cold exposure, norapheneprine release in plasma in the brain where it's involved with like mood and focus and attention.

[1339] So there's been studies where like you could do a two -minute cryo, whatever the average temperature.

[1340] It's really cold.

[1341] Minus 240s.

[1342] Something like that.

[1343] Yeah.

[1344] And then that could be compared.

[1345] to like, you know, a longer, a longer duration in 50 -degree, you know, I think 50 -degree Fahrenheit water or something like that.

[1346] I don't remember the exact time, but it is comparable, but you have to stay in a longer duration.

[1347] So some people prefer ice baths.

[1348] Some athletes prefer the ice bath versus cryotherapy, even though it's probably more painful because it lasts a lot longer.

[1349] Oh, it's painful.

[1350] Have you done those ice baths?

[1351] Oh, I've done it.

[1352] I've only done the cryo.

[1353] So have you ever done like cold shower after your sauna?

[1354] Yes.

[1355] Do you like it?

[1356] I like it a lot.

[1357] I like it particularly after hot yoga.

[1358] After hot yoga.

[1359] After hot yoga, especially in the winter when it's actually cold, the water's cold.

[1360] That's when I love it.

[1361] There's something mood enhancing.

[1362] I mean, these things also affect the immune system, by the way, which is also very relevant, both cold and hot.

[1363] They both have been shown to increase lymphocyte numbers and also, like, other myeloid cells and stuff in people.

[1364] But, but like there's something, like I've done the sauna and then gone into an ice bath and then, you know, it's just really it's hard it's cold i mean you feel good but man you know i think just like the guy's house i was doing it i was trying to impress them so you know i'm hardcore i could do this but it was it was pretty intense i do i do eventually want to get some kind of like they have those like like ice those baths that you can like regulate you like regulate the water temperature yeah there's ones that you plug in yeah they're not ice baths at all they just cool that's just too much work like ice and bath yeah yeah yeah we wanted to get one here we're probably going to wind up doing that get one here i should because you have two showers and the shower next to the sauna is kind of useless so who uses the sauna here jamie just me you don't use the sauna here he uses occasionally yeah yeah but i also had a gym i was going to for you do use the sauna though right yeah yeah yeah i use it every day i usually use it at home but sometimes i use it here when i uh like right after workouts like if i work out i try to get a workout here before, you know, like before I do podcasts, and I'll time it so they have an extra hour so I can get in the sauna.

[1365] That's awesome.

[1366] Yeah, it makes a big difference for me. But I also just, I think it might be a little too much before, like, I'm always trying to regulate how much activity I do with whether or not I'm going to be exhausted when I do a podcast.

[1367] Because I used to do yoga and then I would come out.

[1368] I would get out of yoga at 11 or at 10 .30 and I would do a podcast at 12.

[1369] And I was like, whoof, I think I better wait until 1.

[1370] Because I'd just be so, because 90 minute yoga classes in 105 degrees is fucking rough.

[1371] It's intense.

[1372] It's rough.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] I've only done Bickram a couple times.

[1375] I would love to, like, do it more.

[1376] I loved it.

[1377] Yeah.

[1378] I really loved it.

[1379] Well, I would wonder, and I know there's supposedly some sort of Harvard study that's ongoing right now measuring all sorts of.

[1380] markers in people that have done hot yoga and whether or not it mimics heat shock proteins that are created in the sauna because the thing is like you are getting this incredible cardiovascular exercise because your heart's beating like crazy and you know you're not doing cardio per se but your heart rate gets jacked because of the heat and the stress and then on top of that even though it's only 105 degrees your body is heating up you're you're really sweating up a storm in there.

[1381] I mean, it gets, I've taken some friends there that have never experienced it before and they're like, fucking yoga.

[1382] Come on, bro.

[1383] Yoga.

[1384] And then they get in there and then I look over at them 15 minutes in.

[1385] They're like, fucking A. And I'm like, yeah.

[1386] It is.

[1387] I told you.

[1388] It's not what you think it is.

[1389] Because you're doing, like, yoga even uncoupled from the heat strip, like the hot part.

[1390] Yoga is also like, it's pretty intense.

[1391] Like holding those positions and stuff.

[1392] And like your heart rate does start to elevate.

[1393] I mean, it's like just from that alone adding on the sauna which mimics moderate physical activity that's been shown absolutely mimics it and then all the you know studies that have shown that um on top of that i mean that's like it's it's it's super intense it's super intense the girl the really cool thing about and i want to get my mom um i think once we move the sauna like to our home where it's not like the office like i want to people that are not people that are sedentary and people that are sedentary for whatever reason, maybe they're sedentary because they're disabled or maybe they're sedentary because they've had a lifetime of being sedentary.

[1394] And it's, it is just hard to get them motivated to go exercise.

[1395] Like the sauna to me is like that's so important because it's giving these people a potential cardiovascular workout.

[1396] No, it is.

[1397] That's been shown.

[1398] It's given them a cardiovascular workout without having to force them to go for a run or go on a bike.

[1399] You know that people think like when you tell them go sit in the sauna they think of like a spa like yeah I want to go do that you get someone who's like my mom who she's she's sedentary you know she's she's not like a physically active person and she needs to be um but like the sauna that's that's kind of my goal is to get her doing and we'll have to start slowly because you have to adapt um you know the heat chock proteins help with that as you the more um the more times you're exposed to heat stress and the more adapted you are like the the heat chock proteins increase.

[1400] quicker.

[1401] And so it's part of the adaptation process as well of, you know, being able to handle the heat stress.

[1402] But like I want to get her to do that because like any, you know, any cardiovascular improvement is going to help her mood.

[1403] It's going to help her, you know, all cause mortality.

[1404] That's been shown, you know, four to seven times a week, 40 percent lower all cause mortality.

[1405] Cardiovascular rate mortality is 50 percent lower.

[1406] You know, so like I think that's a really cool thing about the sauna is that you can get people that are disabled, people that can't go for a run you know i mean i still think exercise i mean it's just that's the best thing ever yeah period for everything right you know for everything it's just going to overall improve the way you age and that's going to make you more robust and resilient to anything yeah yeah um sauna to me is it there's so many benefits but one of the big ones is that muscles feel better they feel looser they're not as sore like when i have hard hard workouts and I get in the sauna afterwards, I feel like my recovery is more rapid.

[1407] Interesting.

[1408] That's interesting.

[1409] I, because I don't do a lot of resistance training, shame on me. I don't have that same perspective.

[1410] But there happened studies, at least were localized heat on people that had a limb immobilized.

[1411] I don't remember what limb it was, but after a week, people that had the heat treatment, local heat treatment, had almost 40 % less muscle atrophy.

[1412] and in animal huge in animal studies and like I remember I like shared this animal study in an article I wrote years ago before the human study came out and like there were critics well it's animals and blah blah blah you can't say it does this and I would get on the mechanism they showed it was heatchog proteins and there's all you know like and I was so happy when that human study came out because it was like told you told you motherfucker you know like that's just a few of those those guys that you're just like you're like maybe I just I don't know like do a big comprehensive search of the literature and understand things and you know don't have that exact study just yet but like I know that it's going to help with muscle atrophy so people love to dismiss things don't they yes they really do even if even if they're wrong they just love to like fixate on confirmation bias a little possible potential things yeah you know dismiss it instead of just being open minded and going hmm I think that happens a lot too with like social media because, like, for example, if I share one study, I'll share, like, an epidemiological study.

[1413] And it's like, it's Twitter.

[1414] You know, I'm doing 140 car or whatever the chain.

[1415] I don't know what the characters are now, but I'm doing a small number of characters.

[1416] And I'm just sharing one study.

[1417] And if it happens to be a non -randomized controlled trial, then, you know, it's just correlation doesn't equal causation.

[1418] It's like, sometimes I just share a story because, one, I think it's interesting or two, because I've read a bunch of, you know, evidence, surrounding grounding this topic, you know, about all the other clinical evidence, all the genetic evidence, all the animal, like, and so I have a knowledge base here.

[1419] And so I share a study that may be isolated in and of itself is not the strongest study.

[1420] But, you know, it's like that's the, you can't.

[1421] You just can't.

[1422] Like, you just can't.

[1423] I can't.

[1424] Someone else does it.

[1425] It's like trying to strike up a conversation in a porta pot.

[1426] It's just not.

[1427] It affects me. Like, I'm the kind of person where, like, I like to make people happy.

[1428] Like, it, it bothers me when people are, like, unhappy.

[1429] It bothers me when people, like, Well, then don't go on Twitter, period, because most of those people are unhappy.

[1430] Or YouTube.

[1431] No, I mean, I guess that's not really the case.

[1432] For me, at least, the bigger audience, for you, for sure.

[1433] I mean, the bigger your audience is, the more you get that.

[1434] This is what I tried to explain to a friend of mine who was on the podcast, who read the comments.

[1435] And I go, do you just have to stop and think?

[1436] Okay.

[1437] Even if just 1 % of all of my people that go from Instagram, like if you're reading the Instagram, comments, 1 % are assholes, just one, which is probably really conservative, right?

[1438] If you get a room full of people, there's 100 people in the room, what are the odds that one of them is going to be an asshole?

[1439] It's 100 %, right?

[1440] That means there's 92 ,000 assholes.

[1441] That's a lot.

[1442] That's untenable.

[1443] You can't manage that.

[1444] Right.

[1445] 92 ,000 shitheads who have half -assed their whole life, and they want to just, yeah, blah, blah, They want to shoot people down, make people feel bad, and just don't.

[1446] Yeah.

[1447] It's not worth it.

[1448] I don't.

[1449] And I feel for those people.

[1450] I genuinely do.

[1451] I feel for people that are in that state where they realize that they're not happy.

[1452] They're not happy with their own performance.

[1453] They're not happy with their life.

[1454] They're probably not happy with their relationship or their job.

[1455] And they just want to spew nonsense and negative garbage.

[1456] Yeah.

[1457] I mean, that's the problem with not being able, it's delicious.

[1458] That is really delicious, yeah.

[1459] Killcliffe, 25 milligram CBD.

[1460] All right.

[1461] I got some other flavors too.

[1462] The problem with that is you'll fixate on the one person that says the negative.

[1463] Exactly.

[1464] It's a natural human inclination.

[1465] And that fixation for me keeps me up at night.

[1466] Like when I lay down.

[1467] No, don't say that.

[1468] But like I'm not, it doesn't happen much anymore because like I try like not to read.

[1469] I've gotten so much better at it.

[1470] But you know what I'm talking about.

[1471] Yeah, no, in the early days of social media, before I got a handle on it, I'd be like, fuck, this is stress.

[1472] It's like so taxing.

[1473] Like you'd get into discussions with people.

[1474] Like, what am I doing?

[1475] I think it's important to be critical and I get like you know, there's there are people that are really trying to like make, you know, prove something and there's all sorts of incentives for being hypercritical.

[1476] Well, if you had rational people who are kind folks who have interesting viewpoints and they looked at something and they found something to be wrong with that and they handled it with you know grace and some sort of modicum of dignity and kindness that would be great yeah I mean if there are those people too sure like if you were having a discussion with a good friend and the good friend was looking at something that you said and said I disagree because of this look I have conversations with good friends all the time and even on the podcast where I disagree with them but we handle it like friends But that's the problem with Twitter is that you don't see that person.

[1477] You don't know them.

[1478] You don't want to please them.

[1479] You just want to be mean.

[1480] And that's what a lot of people are doing.

[1481] And they're just getting their rocks off.

[1482] And I feel like now for a while during the pandemic when it started and the lockdown started, people were nicer.

[1483] There was less social justice outraged.

[1484] There was less this.

[1485] But now it seems like as time's going on and people getting more frustrated and more desperate and more depressed because they're locked up.

[1486] It seems like it's ramped up.

[1487] It's hot.

[1488] I mean, this is unprecedented, right?

[1489] It's horrible.

[1490] It is.

[1491] I miss my life before the pandemic.

[1492] I miss taking my son to the park.

[1493] I miss our soccer classes and, I mean, like, music classes.

[1494] I miss it.

[1495] It is hard.

[1496] My kids are having drive -by birthday parties where they drive by with fucking balloons and yell at the window.

[1497] Happy birthday.

[1498] Like, fucking.

[1499] They're never going to forget this.

[1500] They're never going to forget how weird.

[1501] this is.

[1502] They're doing all their classrooms on iPads.

[1503] I'm like, this is so weird.

[1504] See, my son's at an age where he's not going to really remember well, I mean, depending, you know, I really think that, I think things will start to get better.

[1505] Well, if it doesn't, I'm going to move to a place where it's better because I think the way this state is handling it is fucking terrible.

[1506] They're treating us like we're infants.

[1507] Some of the lists they've given you of a proven activities and non -approven activities, that highlights it for me because the lists are, I don't know if you've seen I haven't.

[1508] I didn't even know that.

[1509] Oh, pull it up, Jamie.

[1510] They're so fucking stupid because you've got to realize these people that are writing these lists.

[1511] These are experts.

[1512] These are bureaucrats.

[1513] These are politicians.

[1514] These are people that really have no business telling you what to do and what not to do.

[1515] They're fools, but they're in a position to influence millions and millions of people.

[1516] So they have the ability to tell 40 million people what they can and can't do.

[1517] Make that a little larger so I can read this.

[1518] Look at this.

[1519] Athletics, Badminton, singles, three.

[1520] Growing a baseball, softball, BMX riding, canoeing, singles, crabbing, you can go crabbing, you'll find crabs, cycling, exploring rock pools.

[1521] Oh, can I?

[1522] Can I explore rock pools?

[1523] You fucks?

[1524] Gardening, not in groups, golf, singles, walking, no cart.

[1525] Why?

[1526] Why can't I take my cart?

[1527] Who are you?

[1528] Wow.

[1529] Hiking trails.

[1530] Paths allowing distancing, horse riding, singles, jogging and running.

[1531] It gets grosser.

[1532] Meditation.

[1533] Oh, you can do outdoor photography?

[1534] I didn't know.

[1535] I thought that was going to kill everybody.

[1536] What is the top of this?

[1537] What's this headline?

[1538] What is this page?

[1539] Approved outdoor activities.

[1540] For L .A. or for?

[1541] For the California.

[1542] It gets worse.

[1543] Scroll down.

[1544] It gets so stupid towards the end.

[1545] Oh, look, soft martial arts.

[1546] Tai Chi Kung, not in groups.

[1547] Chi Kung.

[1548] They listed the martial arts.

[1549] Like, fuck off.

[1550] Table tennis.

[1551] Singles.

[1552] Trail running.

[1553] trampolining.

[1554] Oh, can I get out of trampoline?

[1555] Thanks.

[1556] Didn't know.

[1557] How about this one?

[1558] Watch the sunrise or sunset.

[1559] How about wash the car?

[1560] Oh, you can wash the car?

[1561] Oh, great.

[1562] That's crazy.

[1563] I thought rocks were falling from the fucking sky and I couldn't wash the car.

[1564] Jesus Christ.

[1565] But that's what drives me bonkers.

[1566] In all cases, you should only do these activities alone or with members of your household.

[1567] Make sure you keep six feet of distance between you and those outside your house.

[1568] household you fucking clowns have you been like doing comedy bits like have have you been like sorry writing no no no no I've written anything no yeah I thought it should but I've been I've decided to just just accept where this is and then when comedy clubs are about to open up then I'll start writing again but I'm just I'm just accepting where this is and I want to I want to have an honest take on it I don't want to be manufacturing a take or trying to like come up with some sort of a hot take on how I feel but I want to know how I really feel about this and how I really feel about this is very different now versus the way it was in March because in March I was concerned and I was like Jesus Christ this could be terrible like we really have to stockpile food we really have to make sure that we have water purification we really have to be careful here now I'm like we got to be careful these fucking politicians now I'm in the place where you guys have to understand these people people are starving people don't have any money you're telling people that can't go to work But you're telling people that can go to work in some places.

[1569] Like, why is it okay to work at Target, but it's not okay to work in a family business?

[1570] Why is it okay?

[1571] You know, like, let's figure out testing.

[1572] Let's quarantine the people who are sick.

[1573] This strategy that you guys have, you're not adjusting and adapting.

[1574] You're not adjusting and adapting to the numbers, the mortality numbers, too, because they're way lower than they were before.

[1575] Plus, now we have this understanding of the asymptomatic people and how many people have tested positive that are asymptomatic.

[1576] It's off the charts.

[1577] It's somewhere in the range in many studies, 70 plus percent of people that get in contact with this are asymptomatic but test positive for the disease.

[1578] That's crazy.

[1579] Asymptomatic?

[1580] Yes.

[1581] So that's the thing we've got to be careful about that.

[1582] We've got to be careful about what you were saying earlier.

[1583] Maybe 40 to 50 could be, like there's probably a range.

[1584] I have friends that are asymptomatic, went through the entire disease.

[1585] It's out of their system.

[1586] They never felt it.

[1587] Yeah, I have one friend who he had tightness in his chest, but he actually was in, I'll of Wuhan like in December so he was like he got it I know so he didn't know like at the time he just thought it was some like a little like whatever chest cold chest yeah but it was like just mostly just tightness he said it wasn't like you know well that's what's crazy about this it's so there's so many variables in terms of like how people how people are affected by it and what goes wrong because there are so many variables yes there's your your genetics there's your immune system like how is your immune system shaped what you're there's your diet that's included in it your vitamin D status, you know, there's, you know, the other interesting thing, and there's been no studies with SARS -CoV -2, but there have been influenza studies showing that viral dose, it's really interesting studies that have been done where, I don't know who volunteers for these studies, but like, sign me up to get influenza.

[1588] I want to be.

[1589] Right.

[1590] Let's give me a full load of virus.

[1591] They somehow get healthy people to do that.

[1592] And there's been these studies where people are, like, intranasal, like they'll give them various titers of influenza virus and they try the point of the studies to figure out what viral dose and they have like some measurement like in tissue culture number or whatever and they found like to make people have symptoms right and they found with influenza i forgot which a or something i think one of the strains it was like they could do a certain dose like 10 to the seven in tissue culture or whatever units where it's 70 % of the people would get like symptoms ranging from fever you know, cough and all the influenza, you know, flu symptoms.

[1593] But then when they went down to from 10 to the 7, let's say they went down to 10 to the 5, only like 10 % of people were getting symptoms.

[1594] So like it's kind of interesting that viral dose, at least with influenza.

[1595] And there's actually been some other studies.

[1596] I think measles also that it is a thing, not something that you want to like go and experiment with yourself.

[1597] But, you know, that's another possibility.

[1598] Right.

[1599] For sure, when you hear about nurses.

[1600] Yes, they're getting way more sick, right?

[1601] Because they're, I mean, that could be one reason.

[1602] Right.

[1603] And their actual job is to be around infected people.

[1604] And they're intubating these people.

[1605] And they're doing chest compressions.

[1606] Oh, yeah.

[1607] They're getting it right in their faces.

[1608] Right.

[1609] When some of them, they have poor PPE, especially in the beginning, when you're seeing these people that were like using makeshift masks and trying to, it's horrible.

[1610] Yeah.

[1611] I think with the masks, you know, for people, I mean, reopening the economy and, you know, some places have been more successful, you know, like, you know, even like Japan and stuff where, you know, the wearing the mask, like the cloth mask doesn't do much to prevent you from breathing in maybe a respiratory droplet or something or aerosol.

[1612] Right.

[1613] But, you know, but it will prevent you from spreading it.

[1614] Right.

[1615] You know, to a certain degree, like, I get that people don't want to wear masks.

[1616] Like, it sucks.

[1617] Like, who that, you know, who wants to wear a mask?

[1618] But maybe to open up the economy again, like now, maybe, like, everyone could wear a mask if they're going to be inside around a bunch of people, grocery stores, theaters.

[1619] It's certainly better than keeping the economy closed.

[1620] It's better than keeping the economy closed.

[1621] I'll be willing to do it.

[1622] It's not going to be forever.

[1623] You know why?

[1624] It's not going to be forever.

[1625] Because we're going to figure this stuff out.

[1626] We are.

[1627] Like, it's already, we're already finding repurposed therapeutics.

[1628] The monoclonal antibodies, people are working on that.

[1629] That's going to be coming soon.

[1630] What is that?

[1631] The monoclonal antips.

[1632] antibodies.

[1633] Remember you were talking about the llama?

[1634] So the whole point of that is that they're identifying antibodies that can neutralize the virus and they're going to grow them and manufacture them and give them to people and it'll help treat.

[1635] Eventually they'll identify one that works.

[1636] What kind of a timeline do you think they have for something like this?

[1637] Oh, I think that I think things are going to, I mean, I think that these therapeutics can start the monocle.

[1638] So like Ramdesivir has already been identified and they may start to identify other ones like the pancreatitis drug in Japan, chemistat, something.

[1639] There's the pepsid.

[1640] I mean, there's a lot of different repurposing drugs that are being investigated, you know, and I think over the next couple of months, and then regenerons already, you know, doing one of these monoclonal antibodies, I think in the next couple of months, we'll have more therapeutics than we have right now.

[1641] That'll make things less scary.

[1642] People will be less scared of getting sick because they'll have a, you know, they'll have a better idea of, oh, we have some more, you know, things that can therapeutically treat this, you know, successfully.

[1643] Hopefully people are going to start looking at the vitamin D. I really like that.

[1644] I really hope that.

[1645] If not just I hope people are going to, you know, take their vitamin D or ask their doctor to take it, you know.

[1646] But yeah, I think then a couple of months.

[1647] So like, can you wear a mask for a couple of months?

[1648] And like, here's why it's not going to work to just have the people that are vulnerable wear the mask.

[1649] Because the cloth mask isn't going to prevent them from getting, you know, the aerosolized drop this if you're spreading it and asymptomatic, which is that it's been shown that you, if you are asymptomatic, that CDC study I mentioned a while ago about how pre -symptomatic versus asymptomatic.

[1650] After a week when they came back to measure the people again, they found that out of the 13, 10 of them actually did get symptoms.

[1651] The other three that were asymptomatic had as much, they were spreading, I'm sorry, shedding as much virus that could make them, you know, basically contagious and, you know, basically able to transmit to others.

[1652] That's so strange.

[1653] So, um, the point is that I think that I know people don't want to wear masks.

[1654] I have, I have family members that like think it's like infringing their freedom, you know, and, Like, it does suck.

[1655] And I know people are, I mean, the thing is, like, also children.

[1656] I don't know how to tackle that issue because it's really hard.

[1657] That seems a little more difficult.

[1658] But, like, adults, you know, you know, I think that if you're working, you want to open your restaurant back up, you know, like masks.

[1659] I think that that seems like a good compromise, right?

[1660] Yeah, it does.

[1661] The children, it's real weird with this disease because some children are getting sick, but it's a very small number.

[1662] but many children are getting in contact with this disease, and how many of them are asymptomatic but are spreading it?

[1663] So there have been quite a few studies looking at children that are asymptomatic, children that have mild symptoms and children that are symptomatic.

[1664] And so far the studies have shown for the most part that children, even that are asymptomatic, are shedding as much virus as both children that are symptomatic and adults that are symptomatic.

[1665] Meaning they're able to transmit it.

[1666] They're shedding the virus, right?

[1667] They're sprinkler systems.

[1668] They are.

[1669] They're like notoriously.

[1670] Like, I used to never get sick.

[1671] Yeah.

[1672] And then I became a mom.

[1673] And I mean, I think first of all, the first year it hit me hard because I wasn't sleeping, you know, because you have to like every three hours, you got to feed, you know, feed the baby.

[1674] That's a giant factor in your immune system.

[1675] Oh, sleep is huge.

[1676] We didn't talk about that.

[1677] I know you've had Mount Walker on the podcast.

[1678] I've had him.

[1679] I mean, he's talked about it before, and lots of other researchers have studied this.

[1680] Sleep is so important for immune function.

[1681] I mean, so important.

[1682] I mean, we're all not, no one's working because they're probably getting more sleep now.

[1683] But they're also stressed out and they have anxiety, particularly if their bills are piling up and they have no income.

[1684] That's true.

[1685] It's awful.

[1686] It's awful.

[1687] It's really awful.

[1688] It's awful.

[1689] And it's awful for so many of these people, they didn't do anything wrong.

[1690] They didn't do anything wrong.

[1691] They built a business and now that business is crushed.

[1692] Man. I think you've got to give people the option.

[1693] You've got to give people the.

[1694] the option to go to work you have to you can't you can't do this especially give them an option but wear a mask yeah this is not the plague that we thought it was going to be this is not the horrible tragedy that it's not it's not it's not it's definitely like I'll agree with you on that like I think like a month and a half ago I mean I thought I was going to see body bags in the street like I was I was like this is like going to be really bad I was terrified and it thankfully has not been that bad I mean New York City got hit pretty hard but um you know we've we have been on lockdown so that has to be accounted for.

[1695] I would like to see in New York City, particularly when they were getting hit, you've got to think this is New York City in January, which is January, it's wintertime, people are not going outdoors.

[1696] I wonder how much the vitamin D deficiency varies dependent upon winter.

[1697] It's been shown, there's been tons of studies, tons of studies, tons of studies showing that vitamin D levels are much lower in the wintertime.

[1698] It also correlates.

[1699] There's been studies correlating it with seasonal defective disorder and all that.

[1700] But yes, January, all those, vitamin D deficiency is lower for sure.

[1701] But I would like to see a study on whether or not it varies between the East Coast and the West Coast.

[1702] Because over here, we do have all these sunny days.

[1703] And people are outside far more often than they are in New York.

[1704] Particularly in Southern California.

[1705] Yeah.

[1706] And they wear less clothes.

[1707] They're wearing T -shirts.

[1708] They're wearing shorts.

[1709] You have more skin exposed.

[1710] Someone might have done that study.

[1711] I would like to see that study because it makes sense.

[1712] Look, and people are shittier over there.

[1713] Maybe that's why they're shittier.

[1714] You know?

[1715] I mean, they're cold and green.

[1716] Grumpy, I'm sure, but also maybe that is not feeling well because vitamin D deficiency plays a factor in that as well.

[1717] And I'll also like to see something done on whether or not that contributes to how many people get sick over there.

[1718] Because when I lived in the East Coast, when I lived in New York, I got sick way more than I get sick out here.

[1719] I'm for sure healthier, more cognizant, definitely more proactive.

[1720] I think all of those things play a role personally.

[1721] I think that, you know, that there's been enough evidence showing that vitamin D plays a role in, particularly respiratory infections, psychosocial stress, like stress, cortisol, like that dampens the immune system, you know, so when you are stressed, you're basically, you're not in a good situation to fight off, as you were mentioning with your friend.

[1722] When you're stressed out, like, your immune system is dampened and you are more susceptible to illness, for sure.

[1723] And that's also, that's also known.

[1724] So I think all those things, and then the sleep.

[1725] Yeah, that's why it's so rough with all these people.

[1726] stuck inside, and stressed out, you know, all this, the financial pressures that people are experiencing right now because of the lockdown.

[1727] Yeah, it's really, it's so awful.

[1728] Yeah, it is horrible.

[1729] It's horrible and it's not getting better.

[1730] I hope, I just hope, I hope that, you know, we can reopen the economy in a very safe manner where we don't have, like, flare -ups that, you know, we don't want to be set back to, like, shelter in place again, like, full on, you know.

[1731] I'm not going to do it again.

[1732] I'm definitely not going to do it the way it was before.

[1733] if it's the same disease, I don't think it's warranted.

[1734] It doesn't make any sense to me. Well, not if the numbers are like right now.

[1735] Right.

[1736] I think social distancing makes sense.

[1737] I think sanitizing, making sure you're using hand sanitizer and cleanliness and all that good stuff.

[1738] And if you want to wear a mask in public, that makes sense too.

[1739] Okay, I get it.

[1740] But this all with the nonsense.

[1741] Like inside when you're in places, I think, like if you're going grocery shopping.

[1742] Yes, sure.

[1743] But test people.

[1744] How about that?

[1745] Absolutely.

[1746] I test people at work.

[1747] I mean, I test everyone that comes in here.

[1748] You told me you'd been tested, and I guess got tested again.

[1749] On Sunday, I tested, and I'm clear.

[1750] And I did that right when I got back from Jacksonville, because I was like, look, I'm in Florida.

[1751] Even though everybody's been tested, I'd like to get tested again, just for the fuck.

[1752] Yeah, I'm hoping that the accuracy of the PCR test improves.

[1753] I don't, I have, you know, I don't know if there's like a, but you mentioned one test that might be coming out.

[1754] I hope that's.

[1755] You know, the saliva -based test, yeah.

[1756] You know, I don't, you know, I'm not sure.

[1757] What factor do you think, like when we're talking about saunas before, one of the things, this is a respiratory disease, and this is something where you're breathing in these particles.

[1758] And from what I understand that this is a vulnerable virus in terms of the temperature that it can survive in.

[1759] Obviously, it's in your body.

[1760] But when, if it's in your nostrils or if it's in your respiratory tract and you're breathing in that heated sauna air, does that have any effect at all?

[1761] all on viruses?

[1762] I think, you know, that hasn't really been studied.

[1763] You know, if the virus is like right in your nostrils, I don't know, maybe, but I think it's already like getting, if it's already getting inside, you know, the respiratory, you know, area, like your body's kind of maintaining homeostasis.

[1764] So like the heat that you're breathing in.

[1765] Would you be able to kill some of it off that way, though, and reduce the viral load?

[1766] I don't, I think the, I think, I think, what's, you don't want to just spectator.

[1767] Well, no, I think what's actually, the sauna is actually just, it's improving your immune system.

[1768] And I think that doing the sauna is making you more resilient against infection.

[1769] Like they're, you know, like that's been shown.

[1770] There's been small trials showing that people doing a sauna, I forgot the duration, but they're, you know, they were much less likely to come down with the common cold.

[1771] But, you know, they had to be doing it for like at least three months.

[1772] Like it wasn't just something that you could, like you're mentioning to, you know, at the time of getting it.

[1773] Also, the respiratory illness connection, there have been correlation studies out of Finland showing that people, actually I think this study was men, only men, that do use the sauna two to three times a week.

[1774] They're 27 % less likely to have pneumonia after correcting for, and if they use this sauna 47 times a week, they're 41 % less likely to come down with pneumonia after correcting for social economics, status, physical activity, cholesterol, lung, you know, smoking.

[1775] COPD, like asthma, all those like, you know, lung disorders.

[1776] So, you know, the sauna does seem to be associated with lower incidence of pneumonia, but it's thought to be because of immune, you know, perturbations and also like the, there's a, the heatchalk proteins and all those things like help.

[1777] There's like an antioxidant effect in the lungs, like things like that.

[1778] So heatchalk proteins also do have antiviral activity against at least influenza A. So the heat shock proteins directly can activate your innate immune system.

[1779] But they also have antiviral activity against influenza virus.

[1780] So, you know, I think that the heat stress and the sauna does help.

[1781] Now, there's another study that did look at humidity and the effect of humidity on basically like the ability of your epithelial cells and your airway and nostrils and stuff to filter out particles in particular matter and like viruses and stuff.

[1782] And, and humid.

[1783] Humidity actually made a big difference.

[1784] Like humidity, like the higher, the more humid, the better that was acting basically able to, you're able to like filter out stuff.

[1785] Whereas dry, it was like, you know.

[1786] So it does make sense.

[1787] But I don't, yeah, I just don't know the answer to your question.

[1788] I'm not sure.

[1789] I, when the whole thing started, when the lockdown started, I was getting the sauna really hot.

[1790] Then I was pouring a bunch of water on a nose breathing.

[1791] Big, long, deep nose.

[1792] And it was burning.

[1793] But I was doing it too.

[1794] I was like, I'm killing you, bitches.

[1795] I'm killing all you dirty viruses.

[1796] And I would take these long, deep nose, and the whole inside of my nose would be like stinging and everything.

[1797] But I was like, it's got to be killing these things.

[1798] It feels like it's killing your nose, though.

[1799] But then, you know, I was talking to a doctor about it.

[1800] And he was like, well, you know, I was like, would it, I was like, Osterholm, right?

[1801] Yeah.

[1802] I was asking him, was it hostel or was it?

[1803] But it was a HOTES?

[1804] Maybe.

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] Yeah, and he was like, you wouldn't be able to breathe in that temperature.

[1807] It wouldn't be hot enough to kill it.

[1808] I'm like, hmm, maybe the way you do the sauna.

[1809] Like, how are you doing the sauna?

[1810] Like, you know, because people think about the sauna.

[1811] They just think about sitting in there and breathing.

[1812] No, you're breathing.

[1813] The steam is hot.

[1814] I mean, it's burning.

[1815] But the question is, is like, you know, there's homeostatic processes in these cells and stuff.

[1816] And so is it actually?

[1817] I was doing the sauna too hot.

[1818] one point in time.

[1819] I was doing it at 210 degrees because of crazy Laird.

[1820] Laird Hamilton had be convinced.

[1821] Oh, that's nuts.

[1822] Well, that guy's a savage.

[1823] I did.

[1824] I've done, I haven't done, I have, like, I've, I've been to Rick Rubin's house and we've done like, it was like 200 and something barrels on it.

[1825] He's a Laird Hamilton enthusiast as well.

[1826] Laird, I talk, but like I, I was about to like go to one of his, I was like literally going to get on a plane and go to Kauai and I'm like, Laird, I'm doing this XPT thing.

[1827] I'm bringing my son.

[1828] We're going to all like make a trip.

[1829] And this, It was happening in March.

[1830] Oh, right when it all went down.

[1831] I was like, okay.

[1832] One day, one day, Laird will do it.

[1833] One day we'll do it.

[1834] So he gets in over 200 degrees with a fucking air dine bike with oven mitts on.

[1835] This crazy asshole is riding an air dine machine.

[1836] And I say crazy asshole with all due respect, because I love the guy.

[1837] But he's riding an airdine machine in a fucking sauna.

[1838] I'm like, bro.

[1839] So I did that 200.

[1840] I bet you it was the same because they like do the same.

[1841] protocol like and this was like 2 10 or 220 it was so hot like like like I I was like on some kind of mind altering drug like I think that's the point with those guys it's the other thing that happens is and then we'd go into this ice bath and there's like this bath right outside and we like did all this ice and like I said I was like trying to impress rig so I was like staying in the ice bath as long as I could you know got to think I'm cool you know so like back back into the sauna and like getting back into this like 210 or 20 degree sauna and you feel like it's like room temperature because you were just in this ice bath it's the weirdest feeling is really weird and then you do that like we did it like three or four times I don't remember but but I was like I started out the conversation I was like he shot proteins and I was like talking science and at the end of the conversation I was just spilling everything I was like I was just telling them all those things.

[1842] It was just kind of you open up, basically.

[1843] What were you saying?

[1844] I don't remember, but I wasn't talking science.

[1845] Talking about life?

[1846] I was talking about life.

[1847] One day we're all going to die, and then the sun's going to explode, and it's going to create carbon, it's going to create more life forms.

[1848] I think Gabby, Gabby Laird's wife, she has a podcast.

[1849] Really, she did.

[1850] I don't know if she still does.

[1851] It's called, it's called, like the Truth Barrel or something.

[1852] Is that what it was?

[1853] It was at one time.

[1854] I don't know if the name's changed.

[1855] changed or not, but I thought that was so awesome because she named it after like the sauna because the truth comes out.

[1856] You just start talking.

[1857] Like, you just start, you know.

[1858] It's intense.

[1859] There's my eye watering.

[1860] But anyways.

[1861] 210 degrees, I was finding that it was burning my throat.

[1862] And I think I was doing it too often too.

[1863] I was burning my ears and my hair.

[1864] So we were, it was dry for us.

[1865] So I wasn't, I wasn't experiencing that as much.

[1866] But I had to like get on the floor because like I felt like my hair was going to fall out.

[1867] like it was just burnt, you know, it was just so hot.

[1868] And so how long were you doing for?

[1869] So he gave me a hat.

[1870] So I don't remember we were, I mean, I was like trying to like imprison Rick.

[1871] So what is the benefit of it being that hot, though?

[1872] Is there any benefit to that over 180?

[1873] Well, I mean, I think that you could just stay in for, so the thing, so the thing is is that like with most of the studies that have been done looking at the benefits on cardiovascular health and all cause mortality.

[1874] It's quite a bit lower.

[1875] It's like 20 minutes at 174 degrees.

[1876] But, you know, if you're, if you're at 210, you can't stay in there for 25 minutes or 20 minutes.

[1877] You can, though.

[1878] I mean, I guess eventually you adapt.

[1879] That's what I was doing.

[1880] We were in there.

[1881] I was in there for, I don't know how long, and then I'd go in the ice back and then go back in there.

[1882] But I would get out and I would collapse.

[1883] You were actually in there for 20 minutes?

[1884] Oh, yeah, at 210 degrees.

[1885] And I would get out and I would go out to the mats out there and just collapse.

[1886] Yeah, that sounds like too much.

[1887] It felt like too much.

[1888] Do you do like intellectual light?

[1889] Re replenishment?

[1890] Yes, I do.

[1891] Yeah, yeah.

[1892] I take liquid IV, actually.

[1893] Oh, okay.

[1894] Yeah, liquid IV is a great electrolyte supplement that I take.

[1895] You know what I found?

[1896] It works.

[1897] Popcorn.

[1898] Popcorn.

[1899] I'm just kidding, sodium.

[1900] It's like my cheat.

[1901] I love, I love, like, pop up with water.

[1902] But, boy, I wear a continuous glucose monitor.

[1903] That thing will go to, like, 165, like, just from, like, you know.

[1904] Just from the corn itself?

[1905] From the popcorn.

[1906] It's like, and I'm typically like, you know, I'm typically, like my meals that are like, you know, low carb.

[1907] Like I usually like, I eat more like a paleo -ish diet, you know, so it's like meat and vegetables.

[1908] Like, you know, my meals don't get me over 100 for sure most of the time.

[1909] Popcorn spikes in hard.

[1910] Unless I'm doing like popcorn, yeah.

[1911] Popcorn will spike it really bad.

[1912] Certain things will spike it worse than others, but that popcorn sure tastes good.

[1913] It's a good electrolyte, I guess, with the sodium, with salt.

[1914] It's so good with salt and butter, right?

[1915] Oh, man. It's so delicious.

[1916] Who figured out that's the perfect food for movies?

[1917] We can only eat it in our office, though, because we have a two -and -a -half -year -old, and it's like a big choke.

[1918] It's like the number one choking.

[1919] Popcorn is like the number one choking.

[1920] Oh, I can only imagine, right?

[1921] The kernels or anything?

[1922] Yeah.

[1923] Yeah, I choke on it sometimes.

[1924] Yeah.

[1925] The thing about the sauna at 210 degrees, too, one of the things that was happening to me, I was getting headaches, and my throat was burning.

[1926] Like the next, I was coughing a lot.

[1927] Like, like, and I was like, I think I'm fucking up the actual tissue in my throat.

[1928] Oh, man. Because when you cook a brisket, like you cook a brisket of like 210.

[1929] That's a nuts.

[1930] 2 .20.

[1931] The headaches, I think, is a sign that you've pushed it too hard.

[1932] Yeah, I was doing a lot too.

[1933] That's intense.

[1934] 20 minutes in 210, 210.

[1935] Well, I got addicted to it.

[1936] I get addicted sometimes to things that are really hard to do.

[1937] Mm -hmm.

[1938] Like, just like, so in my mind, I'm like, because it's so hard to stay in.

[1939] in there for 20 minutes at 210 degrees I mean it hurts everything hurts your skin hurts your toes hurt like it hurts and then so then the next day I would like look forward to doing it to see if I could do it easier again and then I'm like in this weird loop that my own brain creates which is really bad that I'm very addicted to trying to conquer things yeah I'm a bit I'm a bit that way yeah so that was the thing and then but then I took a step back I was like I think I'm fucking myself up here.

[1940] 180.

[1941] 180 is great.

[1942] I like 180 Fahrenheit, for sure.

[1943] Have I told you my xylitol story?

[1944] I wanted to tell you this.

[1945] Zylitol.

[1946] Do you chew gum?

[1947] I know you do.

[1948] I remember like after show, like you chew gum, right?

[1949] Sure.

[1950] Do you use xylitol gum?

[1951] I don't think so.

[1952] Oh my God, you have to do it.

[1953] What is so good about zylitol?

[1954] So I'm going to tell you my story.

[1955] Zilatol is, it's like a sugar substitute, right?

[1956] It's from the birch plant we were just talking about.

[1957] It's the natural, it's naturally found in plant.

[1958] So it's that birch, you know what they're whipping.

[1959] It's from that plant.

[1960] It, yes, it is used as a, like if you're eating it, you know, I think it could cause like the urethatol kind of thing effect where it's like too much GI distress.

[1961] But when you're chewing gum or using toothpaste, these many studies have shown that it kills anaerobic bacteria like streptocococcus mutins that cause cavities and dental decay.

[1962] Really?

[1963] So here's my story, like multiple studies in humans showing this.

[1964] It's like a big deal.

[1965] So I went to, this is before I was, before I had my son, I went to the dentist and my dentist is really, he's great.

[1966] And he did an x -ray.

[1967] We were doing a cleaning, you know, mental hygiene thing.

[1968] And he comes back and he's like, you've got two cavities.

[1969] And I was like, how the hell do I have cavities?

[1970] I don't need sugar.

[1971] Like, you know, I've just got like a bad oral microbiome or something that I've just for, for years.

[1972] I don't know.

[1973] I shouldn't have cavities because I don't eat sugar.

[1974] But anyways, I had, so he goes, you have two cavities.

[1975] They're at the point of no return where, you know, like you.

[1976] I guess they penetrate the enamel a certain amount and they're like, you have to get them out.

[1977] And so the way I am is I always like to look into everything before I do anything.

[1978] It's like, okay, this is not my feel.

[1979] I understand.

[1980] I told him, I'm like, I'm going to do some reading research and see if I can find, you know, if there's any, you know, possibility that I don't have to like get a filling, right?

[1981] And he's like, okay, well, if you find anything, please send it my way.

[1982] So then I found out it was pregnant.

[1983] And so I was like, okay, well, I can't go back to the day.

[1984] And at that point, I was, like, looking through everything on my toilet trees and everything.

[1985] I'm like, what do I have to get rid of?

[1986] What's in there?

[1987] That could be harmful.

[1988] And so I was like, fluoride, like in my toothpaste.

[1989] So I was like, I don't want to use fluoride toothpaste anymore.

[1990] And these stories are going to connect.

[1991] But so fluoride, fluoride has been shown.

[1992] A lot of people are worried about the effects on the brain.

[1993] And the only solid evidence I could find on negative effects of fluoride on the brain are in utero, meaning pregnant.

[1994] women, you know, and the effects on babies.

[1995] And I don't know if toothpaste has enough to even do anything.

[1996] But in my mind, I was like, nope, getting rid of the fluoride, you know.

[1997] I got a water filter that got rid of the fluoride in the water and I was, like, doing all that.

[1998] So I came across this xylitol toothpaste.

[1999] And I was like, what is this xylitol toothpaste?

[2000] So I started doing research on xylitol while I was looking for alternatives.

[2001] Because I was like, Tom's a Maine.

[2002] I can't use that crap.

[2003] I've tried it before.

[2004] It's like, it's like my teeth get dirtier.

[2005] I hate that stuff.

[2006] You say so terrible.

[2007] Makes your breath smell worse.

[2008] Anyway, so I was like, I've got to find something other than Thompson, Maine.

[2009] So I came across this xylitol stuff, and I started doing research, and then I found all these studies.

[2010] And not only do what I find studies that, like, it, you know, basically kills these bacteria that cause cavities, the S -mutans, pregnant women that chew xylitol gum.

[2011] By the way, the studies were with gum, not the tooth base, the people were chewing this gum.

[2012] And pregnant women, like if they were like six months pregnant, the study started at six months and they chewed this xylitol gum all the way up until anywhere between the child, you know, the baby being six months and there were some studies that went out like a year.

[2013] And then they met the, the researchers measured the oral bacteria of the toddlers and then they measured in multiple years out as they became children.

[2014] And the mother's chewing it, chewing the gum, It lowered the incidence of the S -mutans in the children because, you know, mothers kiss their kids and you transfer oral bacteria.

[2015] And so they're like, they're chewing the xylitol gum had a positive effect on the child's oral microbiome.

[2016] And I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this.

[2017] I was, like, I gave myself TMJ.

[2018] Like, I chewed so much xylitol gum while I was pregnant.

[2019] And, like, I still, like, to this day I chew it, I have some with me right now.

[2020] But TMJ is, is it, am I saying the right thing?

[2021] Yeah, like, Mandelor.

[2022] It was like popping my jaw was, I was eating a lot of sauteed kale and chewing a lot of xylylical gum when I was pregnant.

[2023] And so, but it totally fixed itself, thankfully.

[2024] So anyways, a year goes by, I have my son.

[2025] Eventually I'm like, okay, I got to go back to Dennis because, you know, pregnancy makes your teeth worse.

[2026] There's like all this stuff about you bleeding, your gums bleed.

[2027] There's some kind of term where like women get like, like, what's that periodontitis or gingibitis?

[2028] It's one of those two.

[2029] It's bad.

[2030] Anyways.

[2031] So I go back to Dennis.

[2032] We do the x -rays and I'm like, oh, you're going to tell me about the stupid cavities and I haven't done the research.

[2033] You know, and he goes, he comes in and he goes, I've never seen this before, but your cavities are gone.

[2034] And he shows the x -rays and he shows me before and after.

[2035] He's like, they're totally gone.

[2036] And I was like, that's amazing.

[2037] I was like, is it the pregnancy?

[2038] And he's like, no. He's like, we get women coming in here after.

[2039] And it's like worse.

[2040] And I said, the only thing.

[2041] that I did that I could think of is like my obsessive xylitol gum chewing, which I still do.

[2042] And the fact that it does decrease that, you know, I don't know how it would affect an already formed cavity, but my cavities are gone.

[2043] So my doctor, see, my dentist is great because he like, you know, any dentist could just be like, nope, they're still there.

[2044] Like, I don't know what the x -rays will still look like, you know.

[2045] So, so I feel like he's a trustworthy the god i like that but isn't that crazy you have to worry about shifty dentists but yeah but you do anyone right right so that is crazy so the xylitol gum somehow so you think that what it did was affect your the microbiome of your mouth oh and it's showed there's also studies showing that it decreases the incidence of i'm talking about staphylococcus mutins because it's only one i remember but there's another one that causes dental decay but it didn't affect any of the good bacteria in the mouth.

[2046] Wow.

[2047] So, um, so I was like, and now I'm just like, it's all...

[2048] Staffacoccus mutant, that's the same, is that the same family that you get from staff infections?

[2049] No. No. Different stuff?

[2050] Yeah.

[2051] Okay.

[2052] But, I mean, there's lots of different staffacoccus, blah, blah, blah, you know.

[2053] Oh, okay.

[2054] So it's a...

[2055] So the xylatol gum, Joe, you need to get on it.

[2056] It's really awesome.

[2057] Like it's, I really think it's...

[2058] We already are.

[2059] That gum we've been chewing has xylitol in it.

[2060] Oh, the, um, neurogum.

[2061] Oh, okay.

[2062] I've been chewing this neurogum that is, it's gum with neutropics in it.

[2063] Neutropics?

[2064] Like plank.

[2065] So I was like eating a bunch of ECGC and Cocoa like capsules like capsules like the catechins and the dark chocolate for mine.

[2066] What's in it?

[2067] Elthianine.

[2068] See, I was looking for my althian, but I was out because that like helps calm me a little bit.

[2069] It's got a little bit of caffeine, altheonine and B vitamins.

[2070] I fucking love it.

[2071] I love it.

[2072] I take it before I do kickboxing workouts.

[2073] I chew gum.

[2074] I used to, I used to, um, sorry, it was neuro.

[2075] Yeah, as B6 and B12 also.

[2076] Um, that looks interesting.

[2077] I, uh, I used to take when I was like doing long distance running, um, I was running like, you know, eight to 10 miles a day.

[2078] And I was doing that like, I was probably running about 50, 50 miles a week, which is pretty good, you know.

[2079] Uh, this was like when I was in my early 20s, but I would like dose up on on these like B complex vitamins and I swear I would just have endurance just run.

[2080] Oh, for sure.

[2081] I don't know if it was like placebo or not, but like, B12 is a big impact on your ability to do work.

[2082] You think so?

[2083] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[2084] I haven't done any research on it, but I just know that I used to take them and I felt like a big effect.

[2085] I don't know.

[2086] Yeah, B12 shots.

[2087] You ever get a B12 shot?

[2088] I did.

[2089] So the intravenous vitamin C I got, I think it had B12 in it.

[2090] If you're run down, B12 shots give you an awesome little boost.

[2091] Yeah.

[2092] But I haven't done, like, a specific B12 shot.

[2093] The stuff's pretty good, and I don't feel any, like...

[2094] It's not going to get you high.

[2095] I don't feel anything weird, so...

[2096] No, no. Isn't that...

[2097] Isn't CBD supposed to, like, also be, like, the calming one?

[2098] Yes.

[2099] It relieves anxiety.

[2100] Yeah.

[2101] You just got to get a good CBD, like a good CBD that doesn't have THC.

[2102] Because I have a few that I've tried from other...

[2103] The tincture that I take is from CBDMD, and it doesn't get me high at all.

[2104] But I've had some from other companies where I'd have, like, three drop -ups.

[2105] and I'm like, oh, okay, I'm high.

[2106] Does it help your sleep?

[2107] Or does the THC, or do you require THC for the sleep?

[2108] Different people have different results when it comes to CBD.

[2109] And some people find that CBD with THC benefits them more.

[2110] And some people find that it's just the CBD itself.

[2111] But the CBDMD, the company that I use, what I really like is they have a bunch of muscle creams and stuff that you rub on the outside of sore muscles.

[2112] That stuff's fantastic.

[2113] It's really good.

[2114] penetrates into the skin and just really good at alleviating so one of my old colleagues science colleagues was telling me that like they were measuring some samples from like different CBD products and like the majority of them didn't actually even have much CBD in them at all like there's just a lot of I mean you know this has been shown I mean this has been shown with vitamin vitamin you know vitamin supplements as well there's been so many studies showing like even vitamin D supplements like it'll say it has 10 ,000 IU but it only has like it's like 6 ,000 like there's been sampling where you like you go to like wall greens or cbs or you know you're just whatever random place and grab the vitamin they they don't have the concentration and isn't high also those like echinacea things like a lot of it's just clover leaf like it's just clover like because it it's not regulated i mean not i don't think it's an echinacea kind of bullshit anyway like what does that do for you you know i haven't to jack up your immune system that's it everybody always told me that they were all sick all the time.

[2115] They're vegetarians, but they were zinc deficient, taking echinacea.

[2116] And B -12 deficient, too, right?

[2117] No, I know.

[2118] I haven't looked into the echinacea.

[2119] Someone, like, someone asked me about the elderberry.

[2120] So I looked into that, and because I was like, is that like an echinacea thing?

[2121] But there is some actual legitimate research.

[2122] Elderberry, like, has been shown in randomized controlled trials to, like, affect, you know, the immune system and lower cold duration and stuff like that, you know, so.

[2123] Are you a fan of kombucha?

[2124] Do you drink that about all?

[2125] I'm a fan of kombcha.

[2126] I used to drink, what is the one?

[2127] I drink the dark one, ginger lemon.

[2128] Dorn, I can't remember the name.

[2129] GTs?

[2130] No, I used to, but then they are sugar.

[2131] The sugar in that one's too much.

[2132] So the one that I drink is two grams per serving, and there's two serving.

[2133] So there's only four grams of sugar.

[2134] The sugar, though, is what helps the fermentation and helps the fungus grow, right?

[2135] I think the GT one that had like eight grams.

[2136] So it was like twice as much.

[2137] And the other, and the ginger lemon one, I like, the ginger lemon one.

[2138] lemon a lot and I'm like this one tastes better so the ginger lemon does yeah the one that I'm getting it's like it's found it like whole foods and sprouts and it's in a dark bottle doesn't have the same amount of active culture though like that's the question I don't know it's in a dark bottle you once told me dark bottle's better well the dark bottle's better I don't know why because it doesn't ferment in the sun as well doesn't the sun doesn't penetrate it okay almost like UV protector gut microbiome health is important for a Function.

[2139] It really is.

[2140] Like, that's another thing we're talking about.

[2141] Yeah, I love kimchi.

[2142] Oh, yeah, I love that.

[2143] I eat the shit out of that stuff.

[2144] I love it.

[2145] Do you, so I, what's the brand?

[2146] I get it.

[2147] I buy it.

[2148] Buy it from sprouts or whole food.

[2149] Mother -in -law's, that's the one I get.

[2150] That's my favorite.

[2151] That's what I get.

[2152] We have some here, yeah.

[2153] Yeah, I love that stuff.

[2154] I'm a giant fan.

[2155] It's so delicious, too.

[2156] And I love it with meat.

[2157] Meat.

[2158] Yeah.

[2159] Yeah.

[2160] We've been like, we have a bunch of Elkburger.

[2161] We ordered online.

[2162] Order online.

[2163] No, no, no, no, no. I'll give you.

[2164] I'll give you.

[2165] I'll give you.

[2166] I'll give you.

[2167] I'll.

[2168] I'll.

[2169] I you something.

[2170] Yeah, but I mean, I hadn't come here.

[2171] Why you're here?

[2172] I'm going to stock you up.

[2173] We were like you early on.

[2174] We were just like, we bought freezers.

[2175] I was like, I need the elk burger.

[2176] I need all the orchids.

[2177] I need everything.

[2178] I know, right?

[2179] But I'm just so thankful that it's not as bad.

[2180] Right.

[2181] I mean, too.

[2182] Yeah, I'm thankful as well.

[2183] But I think our government needs to make an adjustment.

[2184] They need to recognize that it's not as bad.

[2185] I start opening things up.

[2186] But there's so many people that are just, the sky is falling.

[2187] The sky is falling still.

[2188] They're still saying it and they're still screaming from the rooftops.

[2189] Like we can't.

[2190] People are dying and like people are dying every day from everything.

[2191] Like you said, testing too.

[2192] I think that's going to make a big difference.

[2193] And I think people will become less scared as these therapeutics do emerge, which they will.

[2194] I'm sure.

[2195] But what I really wanted to talk to you, the reason why I wanted to bring you in here is this conversation that we just had to talk about what are the methods you can use to help boost your immune system, keep your body healthy.

[2196] I think we kind of got it dialed in.

[2197] So vitamin D seems to be very critical.

[2198] Sona, if you have it, if you don't, bath.

[2199] Vitamin C, orally, you need a big dose, and it's still not going to have the same effect.

[2200] If you can do IV, you don't need to do it but once a week.

[2201] Anything else?

[2202] Zinc.

[2203] Zinc.

[2204] Plus, quercetin for your...

[2205] Quercetin.

[2206] And then sleep.

[2207] Sleep, giant.

[2208] And microbiome health.

[2209] Do you use anything to help you sleep in terms of, like, a meditation, an app or do you so i use melatonin okay why do you say it that way i used to not so i have a history of night terrors and what does that mean well it's like when i when i'm stressed out particularly it flares up and it happens like when i'm i think when i'm shifting from one sleep stage to the next where i am asleep but somehow i wake up but i'm not awake and i can still but I'm moving my body, and I think that someone's in the room and that they're going to come get me, and I freak out and I scream.

[2210] And it's happened where I scare Dan, of course.

[2211] He's, like, in the middle of the sleep.

[2212] And it happens earlier in my sleep cycle, so it's like, but I started doing, I started reading about this stuff.

[2213] And it's like, I don't want to, like, the treatments were like benzos.

[2214] And I'm like, hell no, I'm not going to take benzos.

[2215] That's, you know, been shown to, like, cause dementia, right?

[2216] Yeah.

[2217] That stuff's terrible.

[2218] Terrible.

[2219] And so hard to get off.

[2220] Yes, it's very addictive, and then like if you become addicted to it, I mean, it can like, you can like go through serious, like you can die.

[2221] Well, Jordan Peterson just went through all this and literally had to go with Benzos.

[2222] Yes, and went to Russia to have some sort of crazy medical detox.

[2223] That's awful.

[2224] He's still suffering from it.

[2225] Man, it's not even ready to work yet.

[2226] He's been fucked up for like a year.

[2227] It's really bad.

[2228] Wow, that sucks.

[2229] Yeah.

[2230] So I didn't want to do that.

[2231] But there was some studies showing that high.

[2232] dose melatonin, you know, more in the, like, 10 milligram range.

[2233] Sorry, I'm taking nine milligrams a night.

[2234] And I totally stopped having them for the most part.

[2235] Really?

[2236] Dan says, yeah.

[2237] Like, I went through one episode where what happens when someone has a night tear is like, if someone else in the bed that's sharing the bed with you, like tries to stop you or help, like because I'm still asleep, I'm not aware that that's my husband doing that.

[2238] And I really think someone's trying to get me. and so I just go into like crazy mode.

[2239] And I like, I like somehow like crawled from our bedroom all the way out to the living room.

[2240] And by the time I woke up, I mean, I had bruised myself.

[2241] I was like, how did I get out here?

[2242] You know, like this was like the worst.

[2243] This was the worst that's ever happened to me. So usually I just kind of scream and wake up and like, I'm like, like, I think someone's going to get me, you know.

[2244] Melatonin totally, totally stopped it.

[2245] Totally stops it.

[2246] I measure, I track my sleep as well.

[2247] And I think that, you know, I don't know the sleep stage stuff, how accurate that is.

[2248] I think it's not very accurate.

[2249] But duration is pretty accurate.

[2250] So, so.

[2251] What do you not think is accurate in?

[2252] Like, telling me, like, how much time I'm in deep sleep versus RAM.

[2253] What are you using to monitor that?

[2254] Orring.

[2255] Oh, you don't think that's accurate?

[2256] I think that the, I don't think the sleep stage is accurate.

[2257] Why is that?

[2258] Because, like, that's like, you have to, like, measure brainwave.

[2259] Like, it's measuring, it's, I'll tell you why, because I've had multiple incidents when I was nursing my son, back when I was nursing my son, where he was on a nursing pill, and I'm very relaxed, of course.

[2260] I'm nursing him, right?

[2261] I'm making oxytocin, and I'm, like, scrolling on my phone reading, and it calculated me as being in REM sleep.

[2262] And it happened more than once.

[2263] There's other times, so Dan and I don't, we don't have a TV in our room, bedroom, but when we go travel, we're in a hotel, we're in bed, so we're laying in bed watching a show, and I'm, like, totally relaxed in bed, and it's totally putting me as, calculating me as asleep.

[2264] So I'm like, you know, you know, it calculates heart rate and movement and body temperature.

[2265] So, you know, I like it.

[2266] I do.

[2267] I just, I don't think that it's totally accurate in measuring my only real way to measure that is those little suction cup things they put on your head.

[2268] Yeah, right.

[2269] I did a sleep study once because I have sleep apnea.

[2270] So I do.

[2271] Yeah.

[2272] So I had to do that.

[2273] Do you do a CPAP or?

[2274] No, I have a, I got a mouthpiece.

[2275] It's amazing.

[2276] Yeah, it's a mouthpiece.

[2277] Can you tell me what it is?

[2278] Because my father -in -law has apnea.

[2279] Yeah.

[2280] There's a doctor, Dr. Coropian.

[2281] He's a very wacky guy.

[2282] Coropian?

[2283] Yeah.

[2284] Am I supposed to write that down?

[2285] Is that going to, if I look him up?

[2286] Yeah, you can find it.

[2287] Brian Coropian.

[2288] And he's in Tarzana?

[2289] Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's in Tarzana.

[2290] He used to be out here.

[2291] Well, he was in Tarzana, and then I think he might have moved to Sherman Oaks.

[2292] Anyway, you'll find it.

[2293] I'll find it I'll find it I'll send it to you but anyway he devised a mouthpiece that has like a little tongue depressor and for me my problem is my neck is very thick there it is what is a yeah full breath solution CPAP alternative .com yeah it's um the idea is a lot of people have a problem with CPAPs they it's uncomfortable you're wearing a mask over your face that's how I felt and so this mouthpiece is sleep ap via a mouthpiece it sits in my mouth and the tongue depressor keeps my tongue from sliding back and closing my airway.

[2294] Wow.

[2295] Did you go in?

[2296] So I was, okay, you did go in.

[2297] Yeah, I went in, I had a sleep study done.

[2298] Wow.

[2299] And it was bad.

[2300] It's hard to sleep probably when you're in those, right?

[2301] It is, but I did sleep, you know, because I was sleep deprived.

[2302] That's what it looks like.

[2303] So, see, it sits in and that little tongue thing pushes down on your actual tongue.

[2304] It's like a. Does it have to get fit like a?

[2305] Mm -hmm.

[2306] Yes.

[2307] Yeah, you go in there and they.

[2308] They do molds and stuff.

[2309] Exactly.

[2310] It makes a big difference.

[2311] Wow.

[2312] That's awesome.

[2313] I've gone places and forgot it and I panic.

[2314] I'm like, fuck.

[2315] Yeah, I mean, like not being able to breathe.

[2316] Yeah.

[2317] So that's a huge thing.

[2318] I thought I had that at first because I was like, am I just like freaking out because I'm like not getting enough oxygen or something?

[2319] You know, but they had me do a pulse oxymor thing.

[2320] A lot of wrestlers and athletes, football players get it because your neck muscles get really big and when your neck muscles get big if you have a big tongue and I have a big tongue when I lay down it closes the airway so my tongue slides back I know it's associated with obesity yes yes well they get fat extra tissue that's one of the ways that they there's operations that they do to try to alleviate it and they just cut out some of the tissue inside your mouth and then they also cut out your if you could avoid surgery exactly yeah so if you don't wear it because I wouldn't be able to talk for like a month Right.

[2321] If you don't wear it, do you snore?

[2322] Oh, like crazy.

[2323] But when you wear it, you don't snore.

[2324] I don't snore at all, yeah.

[2325] Your wife must love it.

[2326] She loves it.

[2327] Yeah, before it was awful.

[2328] And I also choke.

[2329] I'd be like, I can't breathe, you know, because my body's forcing to adjust.

[2330] I remember I was on a plane once, and there was this guy behind me, and he was kind of a heavy fellow.

[2331] And he was really snoring loud.

[2332] He was laying on his back and really snoring loud.

[2333] And then he would go without breathing for multiple.

[2334] seconds and I filmed him and I told him when he woke up I go hey man I go do you know you have sleep apnea and he's like no I go listen I go I have it too I go but you got to do something about it I go you hold your breath for long periods of time he goes really I'm going to show you yeah so I showed him he's like fuck and I go yeah dude this is really bad it's associated with so many different things it's associated with high blood pressure heart attacks the risk of all sorts of ailments plus you're just not sleeping enough you're not getting real sleep because you're constantly being woken up and shocked into this state of like no it's really bad it's bad for you and it's bad for your spouse like my mother -in -law has to go she goes into the guest room to sleep like after they go to bed because she can't sleep like it's really bad do the sleep study to get the oh man I wanted to kill that guy you have no idea it was like I could just stop him like I'm sure yeah Yeah, it was like having someone that snores is like, you can't sleep.

[2335] No, you can't sleep.

[2336] And I can't wear, my ears are like earplugs.

[2337] First of all, they're not comfortable for me. I have really tiny ear canals.

[2338] And I just like, I can't.

[2339] Some people can sleep with earplugs.

[2340] Like, I just can't.

[2341] It's uncomfortable.

[2342] Snoring is a real issue and it's usually an issue of, you know, some sort of an impeded airway.

[2343] Yeah.

[2344] Yeah.

[2345] I'm glad I don't have that.

[2346] But the night terror thing.

[2347] I'm just, the melatonin's helped.

[2348] That's great.

[2349] Yeah.

[2350] Anything else?

[2351] Does anything else help you?

[2352] For sleeping?

[2353] Oh, I mean, I think that going, so basically, like, having a good circadian rhythm and, and, like, bright light exposure in the early morning, like, it really does help.

[2354] Like, there was a time when I would, you know, like, I lived in Oakland.

[2355] I was just in this dark little apartment.

[2356] And, you know, like, it just wasn't really great for my circadian rhythm because I would wake up in the morning, especially, like, on weekends and stuff.

[2357] Like, you know, there's, like, no light coming in.

[2358] And I didn't, I wasn't, I didn't live in a place.

[2359] that was like I could just go outside and frolic you know right so so frolic in Oakland don't really go together well but yeah bright light exposure big to big it was like a huge thing and the red lights so I have I do the Phillips hue where at like five o 'clock all the lights in our house go red that makes a huge impact on my son and his sleep cycle like because children are really sensitive to light because they don't have like cataracts and stuff And so the melatonin is not being produced.

[2360] So like if we go travel or go to my in -laws or something, they have the lights on, I'm like going around the house, turning them all off because I'm like, I want my son to go to bed at a normal hour.

[2361] Do you watch, do you, if you're looking at your screens, do you use blue light blocking glasses?

[2362] So I have like all the apps and stuff.

[2363] And most of the time, like, and I turn my iPhone screen is like down and they have the black background and all that.

[2364] But no, I don't wear glasses.

[2365] I just.

[2366] Yeah, those are great.

[2367] You should look into that.

[2368] I might have to because when I actually get a chance to watch TV, like, it doesn't happen much because right now my son falls asleep at like nine and he wakes up at six.

[2369] And so like, I have to go to bed immediately after he does.

[2370] So I'm like wondering when do I, when can I cut the nap out?

[2371] Like I'm Googling everything, you know, just trying to figure it all out.

[2372] It's like, you know, you have to keep napping until they're three.

[2373] I don't know.

[2374] I got to like do some more reading because like.

[2375] It's not uniform.

[2376] I know.

[2377] My youngest did never want to take naps.

[2378] She's like, fuck off.

[2379] I'm staying awake.

[2380] Oh, my son doesn't want to take.

[2381] He doesn't want to sleep ever.

[2382] He wants to party all day, every day, man. He's like, it'll start to be, it starts to, like, get a dusk.

[2383] And he's like, it's still daytime.

[2384] It's still daytime.

[2385] And I'm like, for a little bit, it's going to be nighttime soon.

[2386] What about if you get him active, if he exercises?

[2387] Yeah, well, it's, we used to go to soccer.

[2388] class and stuff and go to the park but it's hard uh with the shelter in place right now he's probably got a lot of pent up energy so we've been doing like yeah so i've been trying to like take them you know like we do like hide and seek and run run run and wear him out wear him out but you know i think i think the bright light exposure for him you know taking him out in the morning is really important and now that like because we you know now now i'm able to do that more like i feel safer i like you know like so um especially being outside i don't i'm not not not as concerned.

[2389] So, like, I think that's really important from bright light exposure is just, there's just study after study showing.

[2390] It sets your circadian clock.

[2391] Boom.

[2392] It's like, okay, this is, this is like the morning and your circadian clock starts.

[2393] And then, you know, so you become sleepy when you're supposed to become sleepy.

[2394] As long as you're not in tons of, you know, bright light at night.

[2395] But that's been probably the biggest thing.

[2396] By the way, you know what's actually, I was talking about my glucose monitor, my continuous glucose monitor.

[2397] We were talking about popcorn.

[2398] You know the biggest thing.

[2399] that really affected my glucose levels wasn't popcorn it was actually lack of sleep really yeah big time effect like particularly if I wasn't exercising like like almost pre -diabetic level fasting blood glucose like when this is this is when my sleep was being disrupted when like my son was like younger so I've been wearing my continuous glucose monitor for a year and a half maybe two years now how do you wear this what does it look like mine's right here oh you have a little patch that you wear on you all the time yeah you're not diabetic right?

[2400] No. Because I've seen a guy who wears one of those, but he's diabetic.

[2401] Yeah, I mean, I'm wearing it because I'm sort of trying to understand how different foods, how different lifestyle changes like sleep.

[2402] How long have you been wearing it?

[2403] I got it probably right after the last time I was on here.

[2404] Okay.

[2405] Right, literally.

[2406] Yeah.

[2407] So you just constantly wear it for years then?

[2408] I've been where, yeah, it's been over.

[2409] It's been almost maybe two years, almost two years, a year and a half.

[2410] But I'm most of the time constantly wearing.

[2411] it sometimes because it only it's like the sensor lasts for 10 days and I have to change it and sometimes I like forget and a couple days go by and then I start like eating the pomegranate because my son loves and I'm like I wonder what this is doing in my glucose but the lack of sleep because he would wake up like I would be getting interrupted multiple times at night like you know where it was like I don't know he was going through some developmental stage and and he would stand in his crib and it's like so I was I was getting woken up multiple times at night for like prolonged periods very very like fragmented sleep and I was nothing had changed with my diet and my blood glucose my my fasting blood glucose levels if I'm my exercise routines dialed in I'm not like shelter in place you know um it's about you know mid 80s um and so I was up like I was up to like when fasting blood glucose would get up sometimes to like if I wouldn't exercise like one I'm like wake up in the morning and I'm like one I was 16, 107, 109, so.

[2412] Wow, that's a big difference.

[2413] Big, and it was totally repeatable.

[2414] Why is the lack of sleep causing?

[2415] There's so many studies published.

[2416] We did a video on it, and, like, it's, I mean, it affects, like, the insulin secretion, sensitivity, like, all that stuff.

[2417] It's all being affected.

[2418] So it's one of the reasons why, like, you know, shift workers, they, like, really are prone to type 2 diabetes.

[2419] They really are.

[2420] So sleep is so important.

[2421] Those poor people, that has got to be one of the worst things for your body.

[2422] Nurses.

[2423] like they're doctors, the first responders.

[2424] Anyone who's working that late shift?

[2425] Dan had his appendix removed.

[2426] Like he, so he had, it's this crazy story, but you probably have to go.

[2427] How crazy is it?

[2428] Well, it's pretty crazy.

[2429] Actually, so he had this appendix thing happen.

[2430] We were visiting his parents in Memphis and it was like Christmas Eve.

[2431] And so he had to go to the hospital.

[2432] He's like, it's bad.

[2433] I need to go to the hospital.

[2434] So we went to the hospital.

[2435] They're like, yeah, you have appendicitis.

[2436] But he didn't feel comfortable getting it removed there because there was just a bunch of factors that wasn't this doctor.

[2437] Like, you know, all that stuff.

[2438] So he got this antibiotic treatment.

[2439] They're like sent him home a couple days later.

[2440] He got some IV treatment.

[2441] And then it came back, like a couple months later or like a few months later back when we were home.

[2442] But he was like all of a sudden, like the first time he had it, he was just like pain.

[2443] I should go.

[2444] Something's wrong.

[2445] The second time he was like.

[2446] vomiting and like you know you know I didn't want to like I had my son was sleeping it was like two in the morning he woke me up so um you know we called the first I called the ambulance I was just like you know he's vomiting I don't know if it's it ruptured you know because it could be serious right but anyways these first my whole point was the first responders they came and they were just like yeah we don't ever sleep like it's like we don't ever sleep it's just so awful for them terrible for you so anybody's working the late shift God this It's got to be so bad for you.

[2447] I used to deliver newspapers, so every morning I was up at 5 o 'clock in the morning.

[2448] And I was also doing comedy, so I was going to bed really late at night.

[2449] And I was just always tired.

[2450] I would be sitting here.

[2451] I just, boom, fall asleep.

[2452] That's awful.

[2453] Yeah, it was terrible.

[2454] A lot of people are sleep deprived, though.

[2455] A lot, yeah, a lot, yeah.

[2456] It's a huge factor.

[2457] Yeah.

[2458] Well, I think we covered a lot today.

[2459] We got a lot in.

[2460] The vitamin D information was so fascinating.

[2461] All of it.

[2462] I appreciate you very much.

[2463] You're always an awesome resource.

[2464] I really, you're awesome to talk to.

[2465] Thanks so much for having me back on the podcast.

[2466] My pleasure.

[2467] Any time.

[2468] Tell people how to find you.

[2469] It's Found My Fitness.

[2470] Found My Fitness.

[2471] I have an iTunes podcast as well.

[2472] I've called Found My Fitness.

[2473] YouTube channel Found My Fitness and a website.

[2474] Found My Fitness.

[2475] Found My Fitness.

[2476] Twitter.

[2477] That's right.

[2478] All right.

[2479] Thank you, Ron.

[2480] I appreciate you.

[2481] Thanks, Joe.

[2482] Bye, everybody.

[2483] Woo.

[2484] You know.