The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] Everything that people say, well, you're lucky to work with Dolk Chimvana.
[1] And I can say, that wasn't luck.
[2] It was strategy.
[3] What's that imposter voice saying is going to be found out?
[4] Good question, I suppose.
[5] Do you have insecurities?
[6] Yeah, of course I do.
[7] Has that ever had a impact on you?
[8] I never believed my own hype.
[9] It's very easy once you see yourself in articles and winning awards and everyone's telling you how amazing you are.
[10] But I suppose I never really did.
[11] I didn't fit in particularly well.
[12] and I've seen the extremities of mental health.
[13] Me, myself, going to dark periods, but nothing would, nothing would suffice, nothing would cheer you up.
[14] If you haven't got a thick skin, you shouldn't be in this game.
[15] David Gandhi, at one point he was one of the highest paid male models in the entire world, a beautiful, beautiful man. And so hearing that and seeing how beautiful he is would understandably make you assume a lot of things about him, But what you're going to hear today is that those things are wrong and that you should never judge a book by its cover.
[16] How is it possible that someone that looks like David Gandhi can describe themselves as having imposter syndrome, being low in confidence, and waiting to be found out?
[17] He's now become an entrepreneur.
[18] He's focused on launching his brand new brand, David Gandhi wellware, and he's taking on a completely different industry.
[19] It's crazy because when you open people's diaries, you never know what you'll find.
[20] And what I found in David's today was truly fascinating, unexpected, vulnerable, and extremely surprisingly relatable.
[21] So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett.
[22] And this is The Diary of a CEO.
[23] I hope nobody's listening.
[24] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
[25] There's a lot of very beautiful people in the world, right?
[26] But they don't manage to achieve what you've achieved across multiple disciplines, whether it's within your modeling career, which is an incredibly competitive space to play and one with shrouded with huge amounts of uncertainty, or whether it's now in business with what you're doing with your brands there and your investments.
[27] So my question is, what is it about you in your sort of self -diagnosis that has made you rise to the top in those pursuits?
[28] Good question.
[29] And also, where did it come from?
[30] These is one to say is probably the modelling one to start off with, and that was I questioned why men weren't in the same position as the female supermodels.
[31] And you had the equivalent of the male supermodels at the time, and you always have that.
[32] But they were never to that level of fame, of financial rewards as the female supermodels.
[33] and I questioned that that was all and thought, is there a possibility?
[34] Is there almost, I suppose, a gap in the market?
[35] The first five years, no one actually realizes that I really didn't do that much for the first five or six years.
[36] It was, you know, of course we didn't struggle and it was a lot of, you know, sort of catalogue work.
[37] Earning really good money wasn't what I wanted to do.
[38] But I got to work with, you know, like Sir Chrissy Turner, and Naomi Campbell and those people.
[39] And I literally just observed them and ask some questions and sort of got the answers I wanted and I all realized that it was a business for them.
[40] They had great teams, they had great agencies, they had PRs and PAs, it was run as a business.
[41] And then you had the guys, who were the top of the fashion at the time, it wasn't a business for them.
[42] It was a lovely way of making a living and they felt very fortunate to be there, some of the time I'm not even admitting that they were models they were in advertising or marketing as a lot of people used to say and I just used the female platform and I went to head of my agency Tandy Anderson and said I don't want to do this commercial work anymore I don't it doesn't satisfy me it's not when she said what do you want to do I said if I'm going to do this I want to be the best at it and she said right literally from tomorrow I'll say this a million times you have to stop all that commercial work because we have to do you have to be perceived in a total different light to get to where you want to be.
[43] So every bit of that work, and I say we're earning very good money.
[44] I just quit everything.
[45] We said no to all the campaign, no to all the catalogs.
[46] And as she said to me, like, in a position where you've got, that's what most models are dreaming of, earning what, not dreaming of, but that's, you know, they see yours as an enviable position.
[47] I said, Dan, it's just not what I want to do.
[48] I'm not happy doing it.
[49] So to me, I had nothing to lose because I wouldn't have carried on.
[50] So we then started building up this other perception of me within the fashion industry, not the catalogue model, not the commercial model, but editorial, a bit more sort of fashion -based.
[51] And that's when we instigated a meeting with Dolce and Gabana.
[52] And that's how I did their campaign.
[53] The campaign led to light blue.
[54] And light blue is, to me, a tick in the box for then to achieve what I wanted to achieve.
[55] And it was phenomenal success and it still is.
[56] but that was that was what i needed that was the platform pretty much from there and then we could put the team together to say where do you want to be in three years what where's the next three years after that where do you want to achieve and i'm big believer having goals not always having to achieve them things change but i'm big believing having goals so you know roughly where you're where you want to end up at something and then game is a always so like a game of chess and you're moving pieces to get to that checkmate to where you want to be and often it diverts and you have to have different tactics but you have to have that ambition to know the exact point to where you want to be.
[57] Of course, and you get there and being a, maybe an entrepreneur or a typical person I am, then I'm on to the next thing and not particularly satisfied and, you know, I've achieved that, so what's the next achievement?
[58] Where do you go from there?
[59] What role do you think luck has played?
[60] As you view your journey in hindsight, what role, and you know, everyone, you know, especially very successful people, will always have a kind of different relationship with luck, What role do you think luck has played in your journey and however you would define luck?
[61] It annoys me if someone says, you're very lucky.
[62] And I feel like I have to go on this statement and go, hang on, let me just tell you about.
[63] You haven't seen the hard work that's gone in that.
[64] And I realize that sort of gets you nowhere.
[65] So, listen, I was fortunate to be born like I am, six foot two in the frame I have with the way I look.
[66] and people perceive that as the way they do and it's you can make money from that hugely fortunate but as you said before there are a lot of good -looking people there are a lot of beautiful people I admit to myself I go into my agency there are 25 better looking guys on that board there are 50 better models I've just cast 10 of them for my brand they're better models than me they're better spokespeople than me I was fortunate to be in that position but then you and say you make your own luck, maybe you do.
[67] So every sort of everything that people say, well, you're lucky to work with Dolkina and I can say, well, let me tell you how the story of how we went to meet Dolching Gabana, how we instigated that.
[68] Yeah, yeah.
[69] That wasn't luck.
[70] Yeah, yeah.
[71] It was strategy.
[72] And it was not my, I think at the time, everyone's going, you are Armani, you are Ruffler and you are Marni Ruffler.
[73] And it was Tandy Anson who said, you are Dulching Gabana, you are Dulching Gabana, don't listen to anyone.
[74] else, you are Dolkian.
[75] It was her genius that said, and then then sort of instigated this meeting with them.
[76] And then through that, I'm working with Tanin, working with Select, everything we've achieved is strategy.
[77] You know, it's gone out.
[78] It's like, think, what do you want to achieve?
[79] What do you want to, what's your goal?
[80] And it just, it doesn't just happen.
[81] Yes, there's certain opportunities that come around that people approach you.
[82] But we approach a lot of people with our ideas and we approach from people, we would love to do this, you know, M &S.
[83] It was us who wanted to do that collaboration.
[84] And I wanted to do it with one of the biggest British institutions that everyone knows and everyone has a great thing.
[85] I wanted to do it with M &S.
[86] We had lots of different brands approach us.
[87] We didn't want to do that.
[88] We wanted to do it with M &S.
[89] And that, again, looked at it.
[90] We didn't start off by just doing a collaboration.
[91] And, you know, a huge deal.
[92] It was I had to model for two years with them, prove that I could sell, prove that I could work with MNS.
[93] then we talk about collaboration, then we would move on and, you know, then they trusted me. It didn't, it's not a finger click, you know.
[94] Yeah, it's because the way that luck, those moments, the amazing collaboration, that amazing email that comes out of nowhere, in hindsight, because it appears to have come out of nowhere, it always appears in hindsight like luck.
[95] And I've got my own example, you know, examples from my story where when I was 18, 19 years old, I went on LinkedIn and typed an investor, the first person that came up, I emailed him, invested in my company.
[96] People think, you know, they say you got lucky, right?
[97] And I'm like, well, you know, again, it's what to what you said about the story.
[98] Well, look at the email.
[99] It was sent at 3 a .m. And I show it on stage.
[100] I'm like, and I then removed the time stamp.
[101] And I'm like, I was up at 3 a .m. Thinking about emailing people.
[102] So for me, action and what you described there is like that smart strategic work is just increasing probability that, you know, you might get what people call luck.
[103] And in that moment with Dolce and Cabana, when you form that partnership, with them, how pivotal was that for you and the trajectory of your career in like real terms?
[104] Light blue is the reason I'm here.
[105] And I'm, you know, the famous commercial.
[106] But again, you could look back to that that when I came into modelling, the circle of the fashion world at that stage of what was seen as fashionable was the small androgynous skinny guy.
[107] Now, I'm over six foot two.
[108] I was quite skinny when I came in, but I built up and I just got bigger.
[109] And everyone else said, you need to get smaller.
[110] You need to fit in.
[111] You need to, you're too big.
[112] You're getting too big.
[113] But that's where I was happiest.
[114] I wasn't doing it for a reason.
[115] I was always playing sport.
[116] I want to continue.
[117] I couldn't play sporting or so I was in the gym.
[118] And it was, you know, to have a good physique and to be healthy was the way I was happiest in my head, in my well -being.
[119] so that's what I did and in a way I just looked at the models and Titan Beckquest and Titan Ballou and Paul Skolfer and all these different people that were the Levi's guys the famous Levi's ads that we used to look at and the Raffler end guys I was like they're all big muscular classically handsome guys and they were the biggest in the industry so I just thought this has got to come around at one point so when it actually came around to that creative for light blue of course there was a smaller pop because everyone had followed each other and then there was me and we'd just done the campaign with Dolkine Gabana and then we went to do light blue but that the day it came out and it just changed everything and literally changed everything and I hate when people say that one way but it went from that campaign going out in the afternoon phone not stopping and I think I went to New York and my agency just called up and just said we've got the telegraph the Times the mirror.
[120] They all want to speak to.
[121] They all want to have an interview with you.
[122] And we didn't have PRs at that point.
[123] I was like, okay, how does this work?
[124] Very green about it all, but exciting.
[125] So that's that that change.
[126] So you're talking there about lifestyle.
[127] How did your lifestyle change?
[128] And I want to know about like how people treated you and friends and, you know, romantic potential partners.
[129] When that, that blows up for you, the phone doesn't stop ringing.
[130] how does your world shift from a like a very personal perspective friends have never changed great and we're still you know all on WhatsApp groups and see each other I don't see them as much they all live closer together and that's a shame really but it's just never changed I get the absolute roasting roasting all the time I'm just an easy target you can just Google my name there while there's so many pictures that go putting online I can't really say much for that so but and that's it you know it keeps you and I love that.
[131] No one takes themselves too seriously.
[132] And I think hopefully that's what I didn't do too much.
[133] And I always said to people, if models ever come up to me now and said, what made you different or how did, what did you learn?
[134] I said, I never believed my own height.
[135] It's very easy once you see yourself in articles and winning awards and everyone's telling you how amazing you are, to believe that.
[136] But I, I suppose I never really did.
[137] Do you have imposter syndrome?
[138] Yes.
[139] Yeah, yeah, of course.
[140] Absolutely.
[141] And what does that mean in practical terms in your mind and your thoughts you're always waiting to be found out i think there's the end of the day always waiting for you know you sort of go okay you're like come on if you've had a really good inning even 15 years in yeah you still think well 20 20 years in we've had a good in you know i'm still thinking that today to be found out you do that by putting yourself at risk at something it's what like i suppose there's there is the risk and reward so everything i do that has to be a slight risk otherwise it's not sort of worth i suppose me doing it so there's always got to be that risk of failure in many ways and i don't mind failure i've learned more from failure than i have from success to honest and that risk element of you know vanity fair asking me to write an article i mean i'm not a writer to do that is scary and i won't have anyone write it for me i have to do it we're going back to the integrity thing i have to do it that goes for sort of the fashion game to collaborating with brands to investing, you know, as you know, it's a risk.
[142] There's an element of risk I take into, I suppose, everything, and I suppose it makes life exciting.
[143] What do you think, when you say be found out, what's going to be found out?
[144] What's that imposter voice saying is going to be found out?
[145] Good question, I suppose.
[146] Have you bitten off too much than you can chew?
[147] But no one can be as harsh a critic to me as I am myself.
[148] I will beat myself up in something failures.
[149] I will beat myself up if I don't do the best job.
[150] So no one can affect me like that by actually saying anything because I'm my worst critic.
[151] So yeah, that's actually a good point of what someone, you know, what that voice is going to say to me. Just a whisper of doubt, I guess.
[152] That may be, well, the way that I typically think about imposter syndrome or at least I've seen it in my business, there's a couple of like top level of execs in my business that talk about imposter syndrome a lot.
[153] And it sounds like, yeah, exactly.
[154] what you've described there like biting off more than you can chew and are you really capable and experienced enough to be at this level doing this thing do you really have the skills yeah there's other people that are smarter and better and that have you know you know won more awards or you know experienced something like that there's also the side that and it's not about money it's about success there's a lot of people that actually don't particularly want other people to do well and most people they will try to bring you down in many ways and put doubts in your mind you know it's like the sort of the backhanded commentizer as I always sort of call it it's it's hard for someone and I I've learned you know sort of that from other people's comments and what they've said to me and I'd make sure I never ever do that and I always just encourage people and if I can help I will help them and that's probably where my investments have come from in many ways is I have had this opportunity, and I haven't borrowed a penny in my life to get to where I was.
[155] You know, when I first went to New York for modelling, I used to go around and couldn't afford to eating nice places.
[156] So every time I'd go on, like, castings, I was walking around all day and going to shoots, I would then go past a, like, a diner, and they would have a special deal on it.
[157] It would be like a burger frying something else for $5 .95, and I would write it down and go, I've got to remember to come back here because it's $5 .95 plus taxes, like, and I suppose I can have a beer, and it might be $10.
[158] That's the way I used to have to think, because I just didn't have anything.
[159] Then I've always wanted to then, I think I'd never really had any help, but I would like to help people.
[160] Talking about helping them, helping people, and then other people tearing people down, with female models, I think we can all quite easily believe how nasty comments would affect them.
[161] But there's something in, I think, the public perception or within society where we think, oh, if you slag off a male model, if you criticize them, say nasty things about them, they'll be fine.
[162] If you've got on Twitter, for example, it's totally okay, just a, people will tweet at Pierce Morgan all day saying, you're a fat, but that people would never do that to, well, they would, but it would be much, it would be considered much differently if they were saying that to a woman.
[163] I believe that to be true.
[164] So I guess my ultimate question here ultimately is like, have strangers criticizing saying nasty things on the internet about you, how you look or whatever, has that ever had a impact on you?
[165] In this business anyway, if you haven't got a thick skin, you shouldn't be in this game.
[166] You've got to have a thick skin.
[167] And it's what I understood, and I've probably only actually understood this from having to cast myself for people to represent my brand, is that you're not being horrible to someone.
[168] Someone doesn't fit what you have perceived in your head.
[169] And that could be for any reason whatsoever.
[170] The attitude you bring into it, the charisma you come into that day on that casting, way you look and it could be anything that person's too skinny that person's too taught that person's not big you know anything and you have to realize that when you were casting is they weren't it wasn't personal it was almost business no you just don't fit the creator that want at the moment that changes when you have a name that change when you have a brand because they're buying into your brand they're buying into your engagement your fans that's different but when they first look at you at face value and there's different people you know there's been castings where they're on the phone and they don't say anything to you, you put the book down, they go through two pages and they hand it back to you.
[171] Now, that is a bit demoralizing.
[172] But, hey, you know, like, I have always made sure.
[173] And I probably over and compensated that because I've been on the other side of, you know, casting other people.
[174] I probably kept there for the too long and just chatted and everything else.
[175] What about internet trolls, though?
[176] Like someone on Instagram or in the DMs just, you post something and they just, maw.
[177] No?
[178] I'm very fortunate at my fan base, which is a very organic, fan base actually on social are massively kind and positive and that's the way of always post social.
[179] I'm not a big lover of social media.
[180] I've stated it before.
[181] I see the use of it.
[182] I see the brilliance of it.
[183] I also see the negativity from especially for young children.
[184] I've spoken out about that.
[185] Yes, does do things affect?
[186] Yeah, of course.
[187] You'll probably know this.
[188] You might see 100 comments, all positive.
[189] And then, 101 comment, 102 comment is negative and you remember it.
[190] You remember those two comments.
[191] So you can't remember the other hundred that are positive and it's a really weird thing.
[192] So it's like dealing with people.
[193] You deal with the nice ones.
[194] You don't deal with the negativity.
[195] And that's what we've tried to do really.
[196] And again, another sort of social, I guess, not maybe stereotype, but sort of misunderstanding would be that someone that makes their career out of modeling, someone that's very, you know, attractive.
[197] like yourself, surely they can't have insecurities.
[198] Surely they realize that they are, you know, surely they can't have self -doubts like us muggles who had GQ are yet to call.
[199] Doesn't everyone have insecurities?
[200] I can't believe that there's not a person that doesn't have insecurities.
[201] Do you have insecurities?
[202] Yeah, of course I do.
[203] Physical insecurities?
[204] Of course they do.
[205] I had you said something about your nose and your nose.
[206] My nose and my ears got any bigger, which they do.
[207] The only thing is the camera, like, I just look like the BFG soon.
[208] Also, I think something that, going back to the sort of trolling and Instagram, that is this thing about age now.
[209] Age is used as a weapon.
[210] You are so old.
[211] Look at all your wrinkles.
[212] It actually sort of makes me laugh when people say, my God, you're like, most people have positive comments, but they can say, oh, you're getting older.
[213] Yeah.
[214] Yeah, everyone is, I've been in the game for 20 years.
[215] If you're comparing an image from 20 years ago, I'm not going to look the same.
[216] But it's almost like it's a negative thing.
[217] You know, and that's, I've noticed that increasingly over the last couple of years is this aged thing is used as a weapon as if it's a bad thing.
[218] Does that bother you?
[219] No. I've always been quite an old man in a young man's body anyway.
[220] So, I'm sure I say mature.
[221] but no you grow old at the end of the day you grow a little bit wiser you get a little bit a little bit you calm down a little bit more and you you accept yourself for who you are a little bit more as well 20s and 30s 30s less but 20s can be quite tricky for everyone don't quite know who you are you're trying to be trying to find out where you are in the world you then I think you get a bit more confidence in your 30 and that's where my 30 sort of came from to why are you trying to be something or trying to fit in.
[222] And I never fit in.
[223] I've never fitted in ever anywhere really particularly well.
[224] Or felt I haven't particularly fitted in.
[225] You're in the fashion industry, I've never felt I fitted in.
[226] I was telling a model the other day actually we were working with.
[227] And we all used to go off to New York for this big casting two weeks, trying to get the jobs, all the big agencies.
[228] And you would go in a group of probably about about 10 guys.
[229] And you'd have a list.
[230] Back in those days, you would have a fax, believe or not.
[231] We didn't have mobile phones.
[232] It was a fax.
[233] So it got your fax in the morning.
[234] You had all your appointments, 9 o 'clock, 10 o 'clock, 11 o 'clock, 12 o 'clock, all the way through.
[235] Everyone used to go down to the subway or walk and we'll go together.
[236] And there was a very pack mentality.
[237] And I was never into that pack mentality.
[238] I was quite always a, I say, a much more sort of individual sort of loner.
[239] So I used to look at the facts and I used to let them go around the corner and I would virtually tear upside down and do the opposite way.
[240] So those nine guys would go to the nine o 'clock and I would go to the six o 'clock and I would just turn up at the office and go, hi, I know I'm supposed to be here at nine o 'clock, but is John someone in?
[241] Yeah, yeah, he's here.
[242] And I go, can I see him?
[243] You take the opportunity where you've got, imagine going through seeing nine guys, speaking to nine guys looking at a bit by the third person, you're like, they're going to be bored and you take the opportunity.
[244] So I did that all the way around.
[245] And that's why I did kind of all the time.
[246] It was thinking constantly of like outside the box of doing something different.
[247] Yeah.
[248] It's amazing how those small things can create such significant, like it's such a marginal thing can create such a big gain.
[249] And most people are obviously, they don't even try and think outside of the script.
[250] And so they end up, you know, competing in a very saturated way for a limited amount of rewards.
[251] But one slight innovation in the process, I think, can deliver such an exponential return.
[252] in the industry of modeling, one thing that I think is probably, I don't have any data to support this claim, but I think it's probably rife because of the nature of the business and what I know about the subject of mental health and mental well -being is anxiety.
[253] And I've just seen amongst my friends, the women that I know that model, high levels of anxiety for a variety of reasons.
[254] Have you ever suffered with anxiety yourself?
[255] at any point in your career?
[256] I'm naturally a shy person, but shyness is not anxiety.
[257] So I can't say, I mean, if I probably gave someone symptoms of stuff I've had or things that have happened, they might say, well, that's anxiety.
[258] My anxiety, if I still think of, now there's a weird thing of, when I hear the music to the Antiques Roadshow on a Sunday night, I still have anxiety that I haven't done my homework.
[259] And I have to go to school next day.
[260] that's how much I hated didn't hate I hated school up to a certain point the sixth one was great with my friends that I still have but that was the point of I still have that today when I hear that music I literally stop and I'm like oh you know I don't have to go to school what was so bad at school I mean I didn't fit in at school that was basically it it wasn't all good friends from that school but it was just a certain time before I kind of met those people the group of guys cycle and girls I used to hang around with and there was bullying and there was I just didn't fit in that was all it was so you're bullied in school primary school or secondary school secondary school yeah primary was primary was quite fun enjoy primary school secondary school is something different it went to the wrong school maybe made the wrong choices it was me wasn't I'm not blaming anyone I'm blaming anything it was just and I was quite steadfast of not fitting in I didn't fit in particularly well and I wasn't going to change my way of fitting into everyone else.
[261] In what way didn't you fit in?
[262] I just, I just, a bit like the same.
[263] I'm still like it.
[264] I'm still, in the fashion, that example of not being in that group, not being that pack, not doing the same thing everyone does, exactly the same thing.
[265] I didn't want to be in, but I saw things differently and wanted to do things my way.
[266] Maybe that's it.
[267] I mean, maybe it was doing something my way.
[268] and I've always looked at that that goes on for that can go into if you look go into styling it's like well no one's wearing suits or I'm going to wear suits then no one's you know why don't you do this it's like you know people still take the Mickey out of me because I do not own a pair of sneakers or trainers and the people like now everyone that's all they're wearing I have one pair and I go to the gym and then and I have a running pair but and everyone sort of looks at you as if but I love that fact you know it's just me being a little bit different.
[269] But it can also lead to, you know, being a little bit stubborn that you take that to a little bit far of not ever relinquishing that.
[270] You want to be sort of different like all the time.
[271] You want to, I don't know why you do it.
[272] Was that physical, but was that bullying because of physical things?
[273] They were, they were saying that you were physically different?
[274] Or was physically different, no. The way you thought.
[275] Maybe it was the way I thought.
[276] If you think about that now yeah it's just because in I do find this still now in the world that everyone likes to pigeonhole everyone likes to you're put in a certain category person and if you don't fit in then you're strange you're strange person why don't you like the same stuff why don't you wear the same stuff as us why don't you think the same way that we think of course it's now got to it's like very polarised when we have different opinions as they attack each other now it's like you see the left or right.
[277] There's nowhere in the middle.
[278] And it was, I think, that element that I've always just, I suppose I've been got an individual thinker in some ways.
[279] And that might put me in good stead for the business we're in.
[280] But yeah, the anxiety thing, maybe it's confidence.
[281] Again, when I was confident into going something, I was absolutely fine.
[282] You know, I just wanted an opportunity.
[283] That was always what I want to be able to, you know, people always say, Why have you not going into acting?
[284] Why have you not?
[285] I'm not confident.
[286] If there's anxiety, give me a script to learn and try and put me in front of a camera and you'll see that's where I'll probably be anxiety.
[287] Although I've done that and I achieved it and I quite loved it.
[288] So it was a scary side of it.
[289] But it's not something I'm naturally good at.
[290] Isn't it?
[291] You know, people would, again, talking about naivety, right?
[292] People would never guess that you would say you weren't confident.
[293] And it's almost like what the conversation I had with Ben Foote.
[294] Google.
[295] It's just not what you would expect based on, like, stereotypes.
[296] One would expect you to be an extrovert, you know, super confident, some kind of, you know, very loud, you know, braggadocious, boisterous guy, but you appear to be the opposite of that.
[297] And especially on the point of confidence.
[298] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I've got a lack of confidence.
[299] There's a lack of confidence.
[300] Well, I think I know my limitations maybe.
[301] But I also like pushing those limitations to see where I can get to and seeing what I can achieve and learn.
[302] But the confidence, I mean, GQ Awards we went to two weeks ago and you sent up your...
[303] I didn't get an invite, by the way.
[304] I'd sort of set out with GQ.
[305] You're on the red carpet, done it a million times before.
[306] There's still dread, like, I'm filled with dread to getting on that red carpet and having the pictures taking.
[307] but it's just not a natural environment for me. And I was thrilled that there was a, you know, a hugely long queue because everyone wanted to be on the red carpet, everyone wanted their picture taken, everyone wanted to be in the papers and put it on their Instagrams.
[308] And I went too long, I'm not, you know, I'm going to swerve that one.
[309] So I swirved it and went upstairs and went into an environment where I was much happier where actually I needed to speak to a few certain people for a few certain reasons and went to go and hunt them down and go and speak to them.
[310] What was it about, what was the sort of psychological discomfort that you feel when you think about going on the red carpet and doing that, because you described going upstairs to a place where you were happier.
[311] So what's the unhappiness of the red carpet for you?
[312] It's just an unnatural environment for me to be.
[313] When you're on set, when you're employed by a brand to create what is in their vision, you're playing a role.
[314] Like blue, I'm a Mediterranean guy in Italy in small white speedos.
[315] It's not me. It is me, but it's, it's there's a role you're playing.
[316] I know there's actors as well I've spoken to them about they love being in character after those characters they don't want the limelight, they don't want fame, they don't want to speak to anyone, they don't want to do press junkets, they hate the red carpet, exactly the same.
[317] So when you're on set, you're almost playing someone else.
[318] And there's an element as well of there is this David Gandhi.
[319] And I talk about in a third person because that's the brand sometimes I have to talk about.
[320] That's the name.
[321] So you, yes, you are walking onto a set almost being something else.
[322] Not that I'm acting in either different.
[323] And then there is, and the red carpet is just not that environment.
[324] I can probably hide behind a character or hide behind a role or something.
[325] When I'm playing on that day, that's me. It's just not something, it's strangely weird.
[326] Draining.
[327] Yeah.
[328] My other half, Steph, love to go out.
[329] love to go to events.
[330] She gets, you know, such a, you know, a buzz, such gets an enthusiasm for it.
[331] Actually, like, you know, she, you know, she, and she honestly probably thought that was me, when we first met, I go to an event, I'm drained from people.
[332] I'm actually a naturally a loner.
[333] I could, you know, we sort of joke with Steph when we first went, she would give me a silent treatment.
[334] And I was just like, Steph, I'm going to tell you now, I'll win at this game because I can go off, I can go on for days, not talking.
[335] I'm used to it, you know, I prefer it.
[336] Yeah, I've travelled the, you know, I travel the world and don't speak to people for days.
[337] So it was always kind of a joke between us.
[338] So, yeah, I'm, and then when you're naturally, the complete opposite of being alone, you know, I love taking dogs to walk.
[339] I love walking for hours and in if I ever ever get sort of proper time to do it with no one around me. The exact opposite of that is the red carpet to me. And your life has put you there because of your success, right?
[340] And you must get asked to go to red carpets all the time and events like that all the time.
[341] Yeah.
[342] And there's nothing, the actual event.
[343] I mean, again, like presenting, presenting an award, reading off an auto queue to present it.
[344] I mean, it's an honor to do it.
[345] I know it's an honor.
[346] I know I have to do it.
[347] But the whole night, whenever you're presenting, is me on that table, not enjoying that evening.
[348] Because I know there was one point that I've got to go up there and be in front of everyone.
[349] one.
[350] And I've done it a million times now, and it still doesn't get any easier.
[351] It's very, very strange.
[352] But, you know, there you go.
[353] It's easier to accept an award, of course.
[354] That's very interesting.
[355] Again, it's just a real, I think for most people it would be a real surprise that someone who is very out there visually.
[356] Yeah.
[357] No, absolutely.
[358] It makes new sense.
[359] I understand that myself.
[360] I tell people, it makes new sense.
[361] Have you ever spoken to, like, a therapist about that or anybody about that?
[362] Probably should do.
[363] But no. It's probably quite interesting to know why I was, and actually might help me overcome some fears, or overcome some anxiety.
[364] And it does sound very strange.
[365] Even when I say it makes no sense.
[366] And it's probably why maybe I've, you know, there's been sort of striving for not to be in front of the camera, especially with my own stuff, is to be being a beat behind it.
[367] You know, I've been creator -director to quite a few brands now, an advisor, and I've gone and helped just been on, So I just said, oh, come on as a creative director.
[368] I don't need to be paid.
[369] I just want to, I just love being that creative element to it.
[370] Gentleman of General asked me in the RAF, and Brayling asked me to direct a REF film.
[371] Loved it.
[372] Absolutely loved not.
[373] I wasn't in front of that.
[374] And it was, they were like, no, no, no, we want you to be in front of it.
[375] I was like, absolutely not.
[376] I'm director.
[377] And I'll cast someone else for it who I think is perfect for her.
[378] Because I'm not perfect.
[379] I'm not good enough for that, you know, not good enough, but I just don't suit that role.
[380] So I need someone else in that.
[381] Again, people look at me and go, why would you not want, to put yourself in that because I'm not I wasn't I'm not the right part for it why just because the concept I've come up with in my head is not me for that role I see someone else it's it's casting you know it's because you think of the greatest role and you know if you think top gun you think tom cruise what if they had put someone else in that would that been the success it would be probably argue no you got us to do 50 shades of gray right I got it's a room kind of a room I got I met the met the author and she said we would love to send you the script because we think and I think in why I got got sent and I admit I'd never read the books and yeah I mean they had they had I mean Jamie didn't Jamie Dornan is an awesome actor you know he was a model I mean he was one he was one of the biggest models but he wanted to go into acting and he's a great actor you know he's a very very and I there you know if I ever went to I won't go into acting, but looking at that, I was like, I'm not, I couldn't beat Jamie.
[382] I couldn't be as good as that.
[383] He's very, very good.
[384] And then you look at the other levels of sort of, of other actors.
[385] And you just think it's not something I was, I could, I could, I could, you know, sort of learn to be quite good at it.
[386] But I could never, you know, be the best at it.
[387] Also I heard about Hercules 300.
[388] You were, I mean, of course.
[389] I mean, you're always going to be asked to do stuff like that, just from the physical element.
[390] of the way I look and you know I'm going to be a part in it but it wasn't anything I was I've been you know I got my being bonnet about the industry I'm in and where what I wanted to achieve in this so there's there's always I said there's a couple of roles I would play and I would drop everything to go and play it and this is a couple of stories I love I've even which ones one of them is about Winston Churchill's bodyguard Walter Thompson.
[391] I even found out who owns the rights to it all.
[392] And just the most incredible story.
[393] And he was originally from Epping in Essex.
[394] And, yeah, Winston Churchill asked him to come back in the Second World War.
[395] It used to be his bodyguard.
[396] Then he stopped and then he came back.
[397] And just the most incredible diary.
[398] You imagine the diaries of being Winston Churchill's bodyguard.
[399] It wasn't easy.
[400] Yeah.
[401] Fascinating because, of course, Winston Churchill, that, like what they called him.
[402] his episodes, the black, something or other, which we now probably know as bipolar.
[403] Yeah.
[404] You know, and Walter Thompson was the person that protected everyone or protected him from everyone seeing that.
[405] Wow.
[406] So, yeah, just kept everyone away from seeing, seeing those episodes that no one would have realised.
[407] Speaking of mental health disorders then, you know, you're an ambassador of a men's mental health charity.
[408] We're working with, yeah, and we're also working with Calm and a few others for the new brand, yeah.
[409] Oh, amazing.
[410] And your new brand has a big sort of theme around men's wellness.
[411] And what does, what, I guess the question is why, why did that matter to you?
[412] And this is also why I asked the question around anxiety, because for you to make it a kind of mental well -being, let's say, a central part and mental wellness, a central part of your brand and your mission, one would assume that you've had an experience with it close to home.
[413] Because I think that that's, you one way that people typically generate a ton of empathy towards the subject matter is feeling it, feeling the pain of it, whether within themselves or within loved ones.
[414] So what was it for you that made you care so much about that?
[415] I've never suffered from depression as, and I'm very fortunate that from as badly as other people have.
[416] And I've witnessed it because I've dated people that were then diagnosed with bipolar.
[417] And I've seen the extremities of mental, you know, health.
[418] Me, myself, and I admit it's not happened for a while, would go into dark periods, knowing I would snap out of it eventually, but they were dark, but nothing would, nothing would suffice, nothing would cheer you up, just quite in a dark place, wanting to be on my own, just not around anyone.
[419] Wasn't triggered by anything, but just one day I just knew I'd wake up and it was gone.
[420] It's a chemical, chemical reaction in your brains, basically, what it is.
[421] And yeah, so I do understand.
[422] And I can spot it in other people as well.
[423] What were the symptoms of it for you, those dark periods?
[424] The symptoms, as I said, was just nothing would make you.
[425] You couldn't snap out of it.
[426] It was nothing could make you happy or cheerful.
[427] You didn't like anyone.
[428] You didn't want to be around anyone.
[429] it's hard to the feelings are hard to explain and it was never got to any point of seriousness I mean I've seen people with bipolar that will be in a room for hours on end for days on end watching the same TV series because their safety is watching that TV series and makes them a little bit happy you know because of just that safety for some reason so I've seen I've seen the real dark side of it And I've also, from me dating someone like that, of how hard it is to deal with it, because you always want to try and make that person better.
[430] And you can't in many, many ways.
[431] It's, you can talk and you have to be, you know, it's about just being patient and listening to people and trying to get them, you know, help, professional help.
[432] There is an element where you, you know, I can, you know, I can, only talk about certain terrain the point and then it comes to an expert help that they have to talk and that's what calm does you know it's it's it's allowing people to talk to people and there are people that are far better people people that's that's the point of it i think there's a lot of people who even if they are talking to people they're not listening fortunately it's never been that bad but i do understand it do you sleep well no i heard you hadn't slept well for almost Two decades.
[433] No, never slept well.
[434] I didn't sleep well when I was a child.
[435] But I did it was the other way around.
[436] Went to bed early.
[437] Got up, you know, went to bed, you go to bed early.
[438] And then my parents just left me being in the end of.
[439] I think they were just so sick of trying to get me to go to bed because I just didn't sleep.
[440] And I would be doing my homework at midnight's 1 o 'clock in the morning.
[441] I still work now.
[442] I was up until 2 o 'clock in the morning working last night.
[443] And that's another thing when people go, it's about grafting or hard work.
[444] Most people are sitting, a lot of people are sitting down at half past 8, 9 o 'clock.
[445] in front of a TV, race goes bed, half past eight, I'm going to the gym, get back a half past night, do the shopping on the way home, cook myself with some dinner, go, doesn't stop in between, is working on the phone, carrying on.
[446] You know, half -past ten and open the laptop and get them with some more work.
[447] If you're always grafting, as you call it, and you said it doesn't stop, how does one become happy if they're always striving, if they're always in the future?
[448] Did stop gym pandemic.
[449] So you, sorry?
[450] It did stop during the pandemic.
[451] Oh, you did?
[452] During the lockdown.
[453] You couldn't.
[454] My, half the business is, my business, the modeling is traveling pretty much at the end of the day.
[455] You have to be in locations.
[456] And did that make you happier?
[457] Yeah.
[458] It made you happy when it all stopped.
[459] To financial, you know, it affected me financially.
[460] Yeah.
[461] And we'd already been affected quite heavily in this industry by, you know, say, the blame of Brexit now.
[462] It was the uncertainty of, Brexit.
[463] So a lot of brands were not spending money, a lot of marketing money, not having budgets, not working with the UK.
[464] Well, they still do different things.
[465] Also, inserting in brands with social media now of old school campaigns versus digital, which still hasn't quite fizzled out yet.
[466] Brands don't quite know where they are within the marketing world or how to market to people, how to target people.
[467] So it's been affected by it.
[468] And, you know, that all kind of Brexit it got signed January, a whole different world.
[469] It was sort of that December, January of, what, 2020?
[470] I was off to Milan.
[471] I was then going to Spain.
[472] I was then going to Greece.
[473] I was then going to New York.
[474] I was then back to my head.
[475] I had the schedule like it used to be going off out to Russia.
[476] And I've been to Russia.
[477] I was really excited about going to Russia for the first time.
[478] And the pandemic hit.
[479] Everything got cancelled.
[480] And you're saying you were happier during the pandemic?
[481] Probably shouldn't have been.
[482] It's an unfortunate.
[483] I'm very, very fortunate.
[484] as a fact is that, yes, it affected me financially.
[485] But it slowed you down.
[486] I've invested well, and I've, you know, it, there's reserves to, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[487] But, um, nice car collection.
[488] That's an expensive, I bet, to honest.
[489] There's a time, probably the only time I actually probably truly switch off and there's a week between Christmas and New Year.
[490] And that's when everyone, I mean everyone, and virtually everyone, is not doing anything during that week.
[491] And that's a week where I probably switch off the most.
[492] And we always sort of go away a week later after that because it takes time for people to get back.
[493] And I suppose it's not fear of missing out.
[494] It's fear of other people working and I'm not working.
[495] I should always be working.
[496] And during the pandemic, no one was working.
[497] How can one be happy with their brain saying those things, that kind of constant nagging to be doing?
[498] something or doing more or to be striving, how can, that sounds like the thief of happiness to me. The thief of happiness.
[499] That's a good one.
[500] Should be a book.
[501] It probably is.
[502] Listen, I haven't got the answers to that.
[503] Would you consider yourself to be a happy person?
[504] A positive person.
[505] Why did you avoid the word happiness?
[506] I don't know.
[507] I'm totally honest.
[508] That's something you probably have to ask a psychiatrist.
[509] I don't know.
[510] A happy person.
[511] I'm a positive person and I suppose I am a happy person in many ways yes that's right but I say it's just a definition of what's positive what's happy is it all the same thing so you said in many ways in what ways do you think you might not be a happy person again good question I mean I am I'm happy I put myself listen when I'm in control of what I do now that's why I always wanted it I'm a control for it I don't know the hard work that's where we've got to has allowed me now to be in complete control of what my destiny of what I want to do if I want to renovating interiors huge passion love doing it looks like a nightmare hard work for other people but I strive on it renovating classic cars the same thing it's and as I said to you earlier you're halfway through you think why am I doing this why I don't know I just buy a new car or you know a new build and but and then you got over it But the accomplishment is worth it to me. You know, that sense of achievement.
[512] That's what I'm striving for.
[513] Does it ever feel as good when you get there?
[514] Yeah, it does.
[515] Not for that long, but it does.
[516] I can tick those.
[517] Couple of it.
[518] Couple of those.
[519] Couple minutes.
[520] Four seconds.
[521] Yeah.
[522] It's the same feeling as, you know, if we're going to shoot light blue or something else.
[523] And I have to work hard.
[524] in the gym to get I'm always in a pretty decent shape but that's hard work to get in that shape and it's getting harder the order I get and you dedicate a lot and you sacrifice a lot to look like that and then there is that point of we've shot it, we've seen the same picture it looks incredible, you achieved it and there is this evening of enjoying that it's then on to the next thing you know it's what are we working on not next but you know one of the other projects that I'm working on at a time do have you have you found that in your career dark episodes where you're where you feel down sometimes follow high episodes because there's this really fascinating thing that I was reading about about gold medal depression where up to 80 % of um Olympians regardless of outcome regardless of whether they win or they don't come back from the Olympics after training all of that excruciating effort and they come back and 80 % of them report sort of depressive symptoms.
[525] I've read that.
[526] I don't know where I've read that.
[527] I've read the same thing.
[528] And I could actually resonate with that in many ways.
[529] Sometimes actually achieving what you want is a bit.
[530] It's sometimes the journey is the exciting bit, which is a weird thing to say.
[531] We are on this journey of wellware, David Ghani, the brand at the moment.
[532] And it is so much hard work.
[533] tell me about that that whole inspiration the journey why why the brand yeah because it was what i've wanted to achieve for so long is have that to me to have your own brand and i didn't know what it was going to be i am a brand you know that's i say that and it makes me sound like a bit of a dick yeah but you are but it is a brand and that's why people have to realize you know when i say that sometimes.
[534] And then I would probably say it's 10 years.
[535] I thought, yes, that's where one day I'd like to.
[536] I'm not saying I'm always going to achieve it, but yes, from the creative side to being in control of that brand.
[537] I'm always in control from by other brands.
[538] Even if I'm collaborating with a brand, there is still an element of control that that brand has.
[539] And I always thought, yeah, to be in complete control, complete creative control.
[540] and that's a risk.
[541] I never wanted people to think because I have a name because I've been in the fashion industry for so long I could start a brand now people do now they use social media for one of those elements is you can start something you can sell it immediately you've got fans, followers, buyers it's made the marketplace a very different place so I went back to really what I did for modelling observation putting myself in the situation where I could learn and that was MNS the collaboration with MNS So the David Gandy loungeware No one was doing loungeware This was what we talk about?
[542] The concept It was what six, seven, seven a half years ago, seven years ago loungewear wasn't a big concept It wasn't something that people thought about And of course we did sleepwear and t -shirts and everything else But it was loungeware that really took off And became third biggest loungeware in the country And it was successful And it had You know 60 % of me in that brand as in what I wanted to achieve on that round.
[543] But, of course, you couldn't get that last 40 % because that was M &S.
[544] And I knew I wanted to go.
[545] I knew what needed to be done.
[546] But I couldn't push it any further than I sort of could.
[547] So that ended.
[548] And then the pandemic hit and locked down.
[549] And one of my greatest friends, Charlie T., who has listened to me talk far too long about wanting to start my own thing.
[550] And he started his own branding agency.
[551] to do exactly what I wanted and he said well listen I've started this now you can be our first client but we're not talking about this anymore we've got the time I've got you know as my best friend he knows I'm never really around he's got you here we went together I've got you in the country we've got time let's start it what's your long term vision then for wellware what's the long term what's it going to become five 10 years from now I never really tell people where I've got it in my head where something is hopefully going to be.
[552] And there are small steps to, you know, to where we haven't, you know, properly launched, you know, the first shipping goes out on 22nd of October.
[553] But we wanted to do something different with wellware.
[554] We wanted to, to the essence of me, it was understanding, and we're calling it sort of well -wear, well -being, why clothing, why does some clothing make you feel positive and confident?
[555] why does some not and we looked at the studies done by Amsterdam University and I think it was a scientific element of if we put students in comfortable confident clothing they're confident that's comfortable and soft their results are better than other people who are in uncomfortable clothing and they don't feel as confident or it's going in the same with business it was now why the banks big banks are saying you don't have to wear suits anymore because actually a lot of people are more positive, they're a lot more open to work with, there are a lot calmer, it's oxytoconin, it's the same thing as feeling the ridiculously, you know, soft pillow or puppy, that softness, that soft jumper, you know, that thing you hold onto is oxytone, it's released into your brain, it's a positive, positive move.
[556] And that's what we wanted to do with.
[557] And we looked into this and there was a side to me that was fascinated by the element of it.
[558] But I've always wondered, you know, Why do I hold on to that pair of jeans until my ass is falling out at the end of it?
[559] And I would try and find that pair again.
[560] I can't find that pair.
[561] And why am I wearing those sweatshirts?
[562] Because, well, it was one for comfort.
[563] And that is an element of lots of things.
[564] The materials, the breathability, the style.
[565] You still got to look stylish in it.
[566] It makes you feel confident.
[567] The fit.
[568] That's why, at the end of day.
[569] that's why it was never to me about being trendy it was being confident and so many guys said to me what do i do what do i wear here what are he confident in and then we've thought about every element of the sweatshirts and the hoodies and the t -shirts of comfort level of style of fit of quality of well -wear breathe well -wear care we've sort of put these elements into um they're washed into the clothing that is aloevira so pyjamas are moisturising you whilst your sleep anti -inflammatory we've got well -wear breathe and you know sort of antibacterial elements of it which is another element of we were looking at fast fashion fast fashion can be an addiction and people don't realize this addiction that you get a buzz from shopping but actually you can be hugely affected knowing the impact of fast fashion on the environment actually when that clothing lasts a week Two weeks.
[570] I mean, I was exaggerating.
[571] It lasts, you know, but it can do.
[572] Some people wear it once and chuck it away.
[573] It's actually negatively impact you.
[574] Okay, so there's a new segment to this podcast we do.
[575] What we do is we ask our previous guest to leave a question for our next guest.
[576] And I've not read this question yet, but I've just read it then, as I said this.
[577] So I'm going to ask you this question asked by someone that was sat in the chair before you.
[578] they told me to ask you what do you promise to do to make our world a better place okay can I have an easier question what's a week before let's let's take it's back to I hopefully promise to do there's a number of things I do for number of challenges but we won't talk about that and they're not promises I suppose the promises from well where to make people smile yeah to bring to bring back some, the positivity that I think is needed somewhere.
[579] I think we're in this polarized world that we are in.
[580] It's just to say, fuck it, we're just going to make people smile and have a laugh with everything that we do.
[581] And I think you can't put a monetary value on that.
[582] And that's what I promise to try and do over the years of world where.
[583] Perfect.
[584] Amazing.
[585] Thank you so much.
[586] And you're going to have to write in the book now as well.
[587] Okay.
[588] A question for someone else.
[589] But listen, David, thank you so much for your time.
[590] It's such an incredibly inspiring and twisting story of yours and to see where you are now and taking on this next adventure in business I find incredibly exciting.
[591] The entrepreneur is fascinated by that and I understand the challenge of that.
[592] So, yeah.
[593] Well, thank you for having you answer.
[594] I wish I could have, yeah, you brought out some good questions I probably might need to answer.
[595] That's what I think I want to do.
[596] I just always want to pry, but I pry because I'm curious and because I'm fascinated by those topics myself.
[597] It's like there's nothing written down here that's telling me to speak on those, terms but yeah it's so fascinating and also your level of self -awareness i think is just really inspiring for a lot of people i think it's i mean it's just there's a therapeutic thing to talking of course i mean men don't do it we're useless um that's mental health the one of the you know is people asking are you talking yeah that's what i'm saying a lot of people don't actually listen yeah um a lot of talking about yourself a lot of people talking about themselves at the moment so there's a therapeutic side to this yeah exactly for me as well you know that's what that's actually how it started.
[598] It was like, it was like therapy for me because I was doing on my own, going through my diary and just, you know, but it's honestly amazing and thank you so much for giving us that story because it's such an inspiring one.
[599] Thank you.
[600] Thank you.